Why do people risk death to get into America?

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  1. My Esoteric profile image85
    My Esotericposted 14 months ago

    Most conservatives, especially of the MAGA variety, have loudly laid out a NOT WELCOME sign to anyone who is not white and wealthy from immigrating, legally or not legally, into America.  This mind-set is a main platform of the Republican party today.

    But I ask you, why wouldn't America welcome with open arms those people willing to risk life and limb of themselves and their families to get to America?  What is so bad in their home countries that would drive them to this act of desperation?

    As a person who cares about other people, I welcome those who make this sacrifice because I know their determination and desire to improve their lives can only be good for America.

    This story is about one aspect of their journey to America that should leave us in awe of there fortitude, desperation, and determination.  It is about crossing one of the most dangerous pieces of real estate in their escape to America.

    https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/15/americas … index.html

    1. wilderness profile image94
      wildernessposted 14 months agoin reply to this

      "But I ask you, why wouldn't America welcome with open arms those people willing to risk life and limb of themselves and their families to get to America?"

      If you are honest you can come up with a dozen or more reasons, from not wishing to pay the financial cost to not wishing to see the culture changed.  All it takes is a little honesty, time and thought.

      1. My Esoteric profile image85
        My Esotericposted 14 months agoin reply to this

        Why spread the debunked myth that there is a financial cost to having immigrants, illegal or otherwise, in America.  It is getting tiresome providing you the ample proof out there that this myth is simply disinformation.

        And in being honest, I would much rather have these brave, industrious people who believe in democracy in America rather than the undemocratic MAGA-types.

        If YOU are being honest, you admit the MAGA culture is not one America can afford to have around.

        1. wilderness profile image94
          wildernessposted 14 months agoin reply to this

          You're right - the math is there.  Even an elementary grade student can do it.  The question then becomes "Why do you continue to deny it?"

          If the believe in democracy why are they invading a country that the people have made closed to them via the tool of democracy?  Sounds more like the ignore it rather than believe in it.

          Sorry - the "MAGA culture" is one I believe in and would build upon.  Of course, if your description of it is to tear down the country then we are at an impasse simply because you don't understand what it is about.

          1. My Esoteric profile image85
            My Esotericposted 14 months agoin reply to this

            Deny what?

            I think the "invasion" is in your imagination.  Where are their tanks and planes and bombs?

            So you want to build on destroying American democracy.  Sad.  I understand exactly what MAGA is about. 

            MAGA is about supporting traitors such as Jack Teixeira

            MAGA is about tearing down America's election system even though people like DeSantis once called the most honest election ever

            MAGA is about oppressing people not like them such as the war they have against the LGBTQ+ community

            MAGA is about "whitewashing" American history to make it something that it wasn't

            They do that in Russia, not in America.  If MAGA likes that kind of authoritarianism so much, they should move to Russia or China or Venezuela so they can be around kindred spirits and stop spreading their form of cancer in our democratic society.

        2. Sharlee01 profile image88
          Sharlee01posted 14 months agoin reply to this

          And in being honest, I would much rather have these brave, industrious people who believe in democracy in America rather than the undemocratic MAGA-types."

          How do you come to your conclusion in regard to the mindset of the millions of migrants that have been allowed into America?

          And you statement -  "If YOU are being honest, you admit the MAGA culture is not one America can afford to have around."

          This is scary, and very much the kind of statement that poses a threatening message. OMO, The kind we do not need on social media. It spread discord and discrimination.   "Can't afford to have around"  OMG

          Can't imagine if Trump said something like that.

          1. My Esoteric profile image85
            My Esotericposted 14 months agoin reply to this

            Let's start with something simple  Please explain to everybody why you support a group, MAGA-types specifically, who have gone to war with the LGQBT+ community; passing laws right and left banning Tran entertainment?

            The Florida governor has banned kids from using their preferred pronoun - teachers to.  The Tennessee governor is trying to ban drag shows.  Are those people you can be proud of and want governing you?

            1. Sharlee01 profile image88
              Sharlee01posted 14 months agoin reply to this

              How dare you presume I owe you an explanation of my political views. I have shared my views extensively on this chat forum. I assume most of those that post here have a good idea of my political leanings and my attitude about current politics in general.   To put it in a very simple context --- I support the concept of MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN.  I am on board totally with repairing America when it comes to economy, dedication,  crime, and most of all recapturing the morals and values that in my view have been crushed by liberal ideologies.



              You have also deflected from my comment. So I will shove it out there once again-

              How do you come to your conclusion in regard to the mindset of the millions of migrants that have been allowed into America?

              ECO stated  -  "If YOU are being honest, you admit the MAGA culture is not one America can afford to have around."

              This is scary, and very much the kind of statement that poses a threatening message. OMO, The kind we do not need on social media. It spread discord and discrimination.   "Can't afford to have around"  OMG

              Can't imagine if Trump said something like that.

              1. My Esoteric profile image85
                My Esotericposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                I wasn't talking about how you feel or your political leanings.  I was asking you to justify them so that we can understand why you feel that.  Why?  Because on the face of it, those positions don't make any sense.

                Since you were careful to say you were on board with the "concept" of Make America Great Again.. Does that mean you are distancing yourself from MAGA and Trump's version of it?

                Trump has said similar things when talking about brown people and LGBQT+ people

                Would you be so upset if I had said " the communist culture is not one America can afford to have around." or " the fascist culture is not one America can afford to have around."?  Well, I don't see a whole lot of difference between MAGA, communists, and especially fascists.

                1. Sharlee01 profile image88
                  Sharlee01posted 14 months agoin reply to this

                  "I wasn't talking about how you feel or your political leanings.  I was asking you to justify them so that we can understand why you feel that.  Why?  Because on the face of it, those positions don't make any sense."

                  ECO stated  -  "If YOU are being honest, you admit the MAGA culture is not one America can afford to have around."

                  Really, asking a question, I see no question mark, do you? ...

                  I certainly shared my view on why I support the MAGA agenda.--- once again  --    I support the concept of MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN.  I am on board totally with repairing America when it comes to the economy, education,  crime, and most of all recapturing the morals and values that in my view have been crushed by liberal ideologies.

                  IMO, Trump addressed all of the above and worked hard on solutions in my view. It is clear you are not willing to recognize what I have recognized about Trump's job performance.

                  1. profile image60
                    JMickelsposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                    "I am on board totally with repairing America when it comes to the economy, education,  crime, and most of all recapturing the morals and values that in my view have been crushed by liberal ideologies."

                    Specifically  what liberal ideologies crushed these?  I'd also ask about the accomplishments of the current Republican led congress. Finding  examples of extremism, a lust for authoritarian leaders, and general antidemocratic beliefs in America is not difficult these day, just spend a few minutes online. The question is how far down the rabbit hole the United States has gone and where it may end up in the future.

                  2. My Esoteric profile image85
                    My Esotericposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                    I guess you have drunk the Trump-MAGA kool-aid.  Too bad.

            2. DrMark1961 profile image95
              DrMark1961posted 14 months agoin reply to this

              No, they are not "banning drag shows". That is partisan disinformation, and goes along with people like AOC telling us we are facists for not agreeing with her.

              What they do want to ban is drag shows for minors, like that event that happened in Tennessee last week where a gay bar hosted a drag show just for kids.

              I just commented in another forum that even most of those people that supported Biden do not put themselves among those that want to let drag queens flash their packages and do lap dances for children. Are you saying you are in support of that?

              1. My Esoteric profile image85
                My Esotericposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                "Tennessee Gov. Bill Lee has signed a bill banning drag shows in public spaces, a measure that will likely force drag shows underground in Tennessee. Other states across the country are proposing similar legislation. Lee gave his signature just hours after the measure passed in the Senate Thursday afternoon."

                Do you want to rephrase your comment?

                I have been to a couple of drag shows in San Francisco years ago. I didn't see any "drag queens flash their packages" quite the opposite, actually. They also didn't perform lap dances for children or adults. 

                Have you personally seen such things or are you simply regurgitating the right-wing crap.

    2. Sharlee01 profile image88
      Sharlee01posted 14 months agoin reply to this

      "Most conservatives, especially of the MAGA variety, have loudly laid out a NOT WELCOME sign to anyone who is not white and wealthy from immigrating, legally or not legally, into America.  This mind-set is a main platform of the Republican party today."

      As a conservative and supporter of the CONCEPT of making America great again.  I take umbrage in such a clearly prejudiced,  discriminatory
      statement. 

      I might add -- what would you know about the reasons millions of individuals have for making their way to our borders?

      1. Credence2 profile image77
        Credence2posted 14 months agoin reply to this

        I might add -- what would you know about the reasons millions of individuals have for making their way to our borders?

        Not too hard to figure out, Sharlee. What would possess any group of people to leave home and hearth, subject themselves to a brutal travail of hundreds of miles, facing every possible sort of risk in such a journey traveling on foot? The risk itself points to the compelling of the plight of these people. I certainly would not do it except under extreme desperation.

        Does that mean we are to have open borders without restraint, no. But there are valid asylum issues that can be explored. I wonder if we have taken in refugees from the Ukraine? I can then see if our immigration policies as desired by conservatives are directed solely against those that are not white.

        People like me will look for inconsistencies like this and bring criticism to bear when it is discovered.

        1. wilderness profile image94
          wildernessposted 14 months agoin reply to this

          "I wonder if we have taken in refugees from the Ukraine?"

          We have.  Does that prove our nation is racist and only takes in white people, as Esoteric complains?  Because you and I and everyone else in the country knows it is closer to 1,000 to 1 "people of color" that enter our country.

          1. My Esoteric profile image85
            My Esotericposted 14 months agoin reply to this

            Duh, "people of color" out number Caucasians by 1,000 to 1.

            1. wilderness profile image94
              wildernessposted 14 months agoin reply to this

              Then it seems rather obvious to any that are honest that the racism implied in letting only whites into the country is an out and out lie, right?

              1. My Esoteric profile image85
                My Esotericposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                That used to be the policy of America and it is the stated desire of people like Trump and the rest of the MAGA world.

                https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ … story.html

                1. Credence2 profile image77
                  Credence2posted 14 months agoin reply to this

                  Great article, ESO, right on time and quite relevant to our present circumstances.

          2. Sharlee01 profile image88
            Sharlee01posted 14 months agoin reply to this

            ""More than 271,000 Ukrainian refugees have been admitted to the United States since the Russian invasion of Ukraine began one year ago, according to the Department of Homeland Security, far above President Joe Biden's stated goal of admitting 100,000.Feb 24, 2023"

            Actually, I take offense at ---  Biden felt he needed to put a goal, and
            a low goal at that on the number of refugees we would welcome.

            Go figure 100, 000. When millions have been displaced.

            "UNITED NATIONS (AP) — Russia's invasion of Ukraine has driven some 14 million Ukrainians from their homes in “the fastest, largest displacement witnessed in decades,” sparking an increase in the number of refugees and displaced people worldwide to more than 103 million, the U.N. refugee chief said Wednesday.Nov 2, 2022"

            https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/russ … NATIONS%20(AP)%20%E2%80%94%20Russia's,refugee%20chief%20said%20Wednesday.

            It would seem due to the numbers the migrants have priority over refugees of the war in Bidens way of thinking. I mean one only needs to recognize the mi; millions Biden has let stream across our borders. Yet he sets a ridiculously low number of refugees that need our help. And In my view, he should be helping more, I mean are we not fighting a proxy war, and are not the people of Ukraine not the recipients of scorched earth, demolished cities, and homes?

        2. My Esoteric profile image85
          My Esotericposted 14 months agoin reply to this

          Didn't we have what MAGA-types would call open borders with the Irish during their mass migrations?  Basically, the same laws that allowed the Irish in are still in place today.  So, if we had open borders now, we had open borders then.

        3. Sharlee01 profile image88
          Sharlee01posted 14 months agoin reply to this

          "I might add -- what would you know about the reasons millions of individuals have for making their way to our borders?"

          My main point. I have no problem with migrants that follow our laws to enter.  And I think it is nieve to think migrants walk across
          Mexico. Many travels with transportation from coyotes, in vans, buses, and trucks., some purchase bus tickets, and some fly to destinations in Mexico.

          In my view, most make the trip for work. But anyone id kidding themselves to think lots of bad people don't make their way in, many as a million got - ways this year.

          In regard to  Ukrainian people, they are refugees trying to get out of a war zone. America needs to and has opened our arms.

          "More than 271,000 Ukrainian refugees have been admitted to the United States since the Russian invasion of Ukraine began one year ago, according to the Department of Homeland Security, far above President Joe Biden's stated goal of admitting 100,000.Feb 24, 2023"

          Actually, I take offense at ---  Biden felt he needed to put a goal, and
          a low goal at that on the number of refugees we would welcome. Maybe you need to research why so few, was it because they are white? 

          "I can then see if our immigration policies as desired by conservatives are directed solely against those that are not white."

          Not sure this makes sense to me...  The citizens of Ukraine have a war they are dealing with. Towns scorched, no homes to return to...  Refugees are not just deciding to leave their homes for jobs, and yes, I realize there are many problems in South American countries. But they are not dodging bombs.

          https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigr … -rcna72177

          There is a big difference between a refugee and a migrant.
          https://help.unhcr.org/faq/how-can-we-h … overnment.

          "What is the difference between a refugee and a migrant?
          Migrants choose to move not because of a direct threat of persecution or serious human rights violations, but for a range of other reasons. This can include seeking to improve their lives by finding work, or in some cases for education, family reunion, or other reasons. Unlike refugees who cannot safely return home, migrants face no such impediment to return. If they choose to return home, they will continue to receive the protection of their government.

          Refugees are persons fleeing the risk of persecution or serious harm, including human rights violations, armed conflict or persecution. In the absence of protection in their countries of origin, which the State is unwilling or unable to provide, they are forced to cross an international border and seek safety in other countries. They thus fall within the internationally recognized definition of “refugees” with access to assistance from States, UNHCR, and other organizations. They are so recognized precisely because it is too dangerous for them to return home, and they need international protection elsewhere."

          " I can then see if our immigration policies as desired by conservatives are directed solely against those that are not white.'

          Have you witnessed Republicans/conservatives against helping the Ukraine refugees?

          1. Credence2 profile image77
            Credence2posted 14 months agoin reply to this

            The numbers for the Ukraine were still quite large and generous. I am as you say, looking here not there.

            https://www.voanews.com/a/us-immigratio … 69026.html

            I will compare the treatment and plight of Ukrainian vs Afghanistan in regards to immigration policy and refugees. Can we agree that the circumstances regarding each nation is roughly the same? From the article, the temporary asylum appears to be applied equally to both war zones. So, I remain quiet for now.  But I will be watching to see how it turns out.

            So, your example as to the reason so many Ukrainians were admitted should apply to Afghanistan as well? The question remains as to who have the privilege of just walking in verses being an illegal immigrant, and why.

            So, Biden did allow for over a quarter million to be admitted, what is the beef?

            1. wilderness profile image94
              wildernessposted 14 months agoin reply to this

              "Can we agree that the circumstances regarding each nation is roughly the same?"

              No.  We cannot.  Ukraine was invaded by a vastly superior foreign nation, Afghanistan has welcomed their Muslim oppressors for centuries.

              The beef is the additional millions he has set free inside our country.

              1. Credence2 profile image77
                Credence2posted 14 months agoin reply to this

                I don't agree with what you consider to be a "difference"

            2. Sharlee01 profile image88
              Sharlee01posted 14 months agoin reply to this

              I have no beef. I was simply making the point refugees escaping war have different circumstances and are treated differently under our laws. I did offer a good source that explains the differences.  I was pointing out that Biden seems to be very liberal with the number of migrants that have been let in, and not as liberal with the number of refugees he has admitted from Ukraine or Afghanistan.  I do know the president set caps on how many people we take in in regard to asylum, And many refugees and migrants do not receive citizenship.

              "Can we agree that the circumstances regarding each nation is roughly the same? From the article, the temporary asylum appears to be applied equally to both war zones. So, I remain quiet for now.  But I will be watching to see how it turns out."

              I totally agree... Biden accepted I beleive 70,000 Afagan refugees, I don't need to tell you so many Afganistan workers that worked for the US did not get out and are not being helped to get out.

      2. My Esoteric profile image85
        My Esotericposted 14 months agoin reply to this

        How can a statement that is true by "prejudiced and discriminatory".  I am just stating the obvious.

        Especially MAGA-types make America terrible and undemocratic.

        I only know what these people SAY about why they are coming to America.  I certainly believe them more than any MAGA supporter.

     
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