A mosque at Ground Zero. How about a monument to Kamikaze Pilots at Pearl Harbor or a statue of Harry Truman in Hiroshima? It’s not a matter of religious freedom or race. It’s a matter of decency and common sense. There are plenty of other properties in New York City, especially sense everyone’s leaving. Why attempt to build on the one site that is guaranteed to create the greatest uproar if not for that specific purpose?
This is the pattern of that system of belief. They willfully build "monuments" where they have conquered. Let's not make any mistake. This "mosque" will be their monument. In their eyes they have conquered the great United States. The true tragedy is that we have become such a blind and complacent society that we are actually dumb enough now to accept it.
OK. Another question then. Why do we mere mortals understand this perfectly yet those we put in positions of power haven't a clue? Something is very, very wrong.
I totally agree. This is why I got out of politics. However, for that very reason I should have remained. It's all about money. Money is the great flaxen cord. Those with the biggest bundle have the greatest leverage to incite fear even amongst the powerful. We, as a nation, are missing the entire point. Our truly inspired Founding Fathers gave us specific not only privileges but actual duties to vote out of office those who desecrate this country. Because of the big three back around 1900 we now have a society that no longer has the integrity to see this inspired duty bestowed upon every American citizen.
Hey, if it isn't too late I wish you'd jump back in the game. We need level headed folks just like you.
I have seriously considered it and am sorting out the avenues. However, as you can see by my participation in the forums there is a price on my head for my views. That real sad part is that my head isn't that far from the ground. I'm only 5'3"!
Only if you can take you mind and focus back to what the ideals of your forefathers are. What did they worked, struggled and died for? Your generation in America got FREEDOM on a platter of gold! You Americans of this generation got FREEDOM free of charge and thats why you play around with it! Its not like that in every other place. The Islamists hate your freedom, can't you get that into your heads?
As opposed to the Mormons who do not build monuments?
Have you conquered the United States?
Dear me. Sad..
Remember the Mormon wars? When u were not allowed to build your Monuments? Politicians and priests..............
Parasites intent on causing division. How very
I N T O L E R A N T of you, Priest.
You are one sad dude filled with constant hate. It must be a very lonely life. I hope you will one day grow up and be at least a fraction more tolerant and understanding.
Surely, even you can see the difference between what you posted and a Mosque on the grounds of the 9/11 attacks. It's equivalent to building a mounment to the Japanese kamakzi pilots on Pearl Harbor!
U think a bunch of ignorant goat herders had the wherewithal to take down the Twin Towers?
Uh I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to suggest, but I'm not a believer in 9-11 conspiracies. I'm pretty sure we know what happened and who did it.
I am sure u do. it was them ignorant Islamic goat herders wot fooled the entire defense network of the USA.
LOLOLOLO - and you are angry at the goat herders - not the guys who were fooled that you trusted and paid 25% of your income to for 10 years to defend you?
Funny. Very, very funny. Still - no Mosque for u huh? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Oh I'm angry at the government for lots of things not the least of which was a breach of security on a country that has the highest defense budget in the world, more than the next 14 countries combined! A princly sum of which is paid out of the 30% in income taxes I send to the feds every year, which is yet another thing I'm angry about. The list of things I'm angry at the gov about is long and I can't list it all here.
OH REALLY! Tell us here in New York City just what happened. Show us how our Muslim Community is responsible for the attack. Then explain why you would blow up the ground underneath your feet, the way you think our Muslim Community blew up their own town.
The Prophet said once to his followers who were worried because when they were going to attack a village and some who were innocent muslims would be caught in the war and killed, men, women and children.
The prophet told them that they should not worry because whether those muslims were voulantarilly involved in the jihad or not, those muslims would be rewarded with paradise in the shade of the swords of allah. Because they had died in the jihad as any good muslim should be willing to do for allah.
So when you say why would be blow up the ground beneath ourselves... consider that advice from your prophet.
Also, why would any group of people strap explosives on themselves and blow up all and everyone around them, muslims, children and any of the enemies of Islam they could?
You would be surprised what a (fanatical) muslim would do to strike against the enemies of allah and momo, and just how much many of them would sacrifice. Well, then again, you probrably wouldn't be surprised at all.
Ditto. That's why I said it. The left defends it as religious freedom. It's just insultingly stupid. These are the same folks that suspend a first grader for drawing a picture of a gun. NO COMMON SENSE OR DECENCY. Can't have either in America anymore. Might offend some group.
I agree with Lee on a lot of things, and I'm a bit worried to see that I'm actually disagreeing with him here.
Lee: you need to realize that if you are against the government's tyrannical hand, then you can NOT be against the building of this mosque. The people have a right to their property, and no government, person, or group of people should ever be allowed to TAKE that right away. The people can only voluntarily give that right away.
If a bunch of people want to build a building, call it a mosque, and then sit in there for X hours a day on their knees saying "allahallahallah!!!" ... then that's their business. But I, nor you, nor the government, nor any group of people can take that right of theirs away without their consent, without it being tyranny.
The second that one of those people then charge forth and attempt to take away the property rights of someone else, then we can detain that person's rights.
I'm wondering how many million bicycle seats and asses of young Mormon slave males were worn to shreads earning the dough to build this monstrosity.
What's that I hear? The world's smallest violin playing for all whiners who seek to downplay a faith whose core belief is in peace, liberty and faith. Never have we blown people up! You cannot equate faithful young missionaries on bicycles to murderers commandeering airplanes. There are better things to worry about than harmless missionaries inviting others to hear their message.
To answer your question, yes, many seats have been worn out to magnify the faithful from out of the world that they may be faithful unto the building of sacred edifices unto the Lord all over the world. It's hardly a land that Mormons have conquered so don't play that little fruitless game. We view our temples as every bit as sacred as you view your precious homes and private places. If anyone wants to look down upon us for that than so be it. You all need to sort out your own personal priorities and hinder your personal prejudices and massive pride.
We view our temples as every bit as sacred as you view your precious homes and private places.
Goldenpath (the path not taken) wrote:
‘A faith whose
core belief is in peace, liberty and faith. Never have we blown people up! You cannot equate faithful young missionaries on bicycles to murders.’
And we turn a page and see this…
Reopening a Mormon Murder Mystery; New Accusations That Brigham Young Himself Ordered an 1857 Massacre of Pioneers
By EMILY EAKIN
Published: October 12, 2002
• SIGN IN TO E-MAIL
On Sept. 11, 1857, a group of California-bound pioneers camping in southern Utah were murdered by a Mormon militia and its Indian allies. The massacre lasted less than five minutes, but when it was over, 120 men, women and children had been clubbed, stabbed or shot at point-blank range. Their corpses, stripped of clothes and jewelry, were left to be picked apart by wolves and buzzards.
what is the world coming to.
Yes, it's truly sad when people pull whatever they can off the internet without even getting out and doing some digging and research. I've done that because I once had question regarding the incident. After disecting the documents and evidence I have found the truth of what happened. In life you will find, hopefully, that much of the truth you get of the internet is according to one person's view of that truth. You will find anti literature about any religion and it will usually come from disgruntled former members who feel they have an axe to grind.
I've seen the timed official letter from Brigham Young specifically stating to not attack those wagons. The letter was en route and only hours away when an incident started. Those responsible were excommunicated from the Church. The specifics of why the incident even started is also skewed on the internet.
It is a very shallow attempt to try and equate this with 9/11. It simply cannot be done with any kind of balance. Sorry!
Is that all you have, a simple denial of any involvement of Young in the massacre at mountain meadows in 1857.
I reckon we’ll be hearing more about the massacre in the future as the plot unravels.
Don’t believe your flimsy denial will continue to hold up.
Incidentally, how many times has high ranking officials in your cult popped up on the FBI’s 10 most wanted list?
You've been hitting the cartoons and comics a little hard I see. Garfield rocks!
This sounds like really ancient history, but it's still hard to hear. I always think of Mormons as being the peaceful, quiet, Buddist type Christians, am I wrong?
There was an incident in 1857 where the Mormons slaughtered an entire pioneer train they felt was invading their Deseret paradise. It was the eve of the Civil War and there was increased movement not only to California, but unsettled land in the West. The Mormons, who had been run out of the US due to their religious beliefs, wanted to get some back from the US settlers.
You're not wrong, Mormons today tend to be upstanding citizens like most, but the Mountain Meadows incident just goes to show how bad things can get when you mix religion and politics. Much better to let people worship as they see fit.
Yes and no. We are not Buddhists, Amish, Mennonite or any other "ist" or "ite." The teachings of our faith have been of peace, liberty and the uninhibited potential of man dependent on obedience, faith, charity and hope.
Now about the Meadows. Every faith, including atheism and all other systems of belief, have their dark moments. Come on people we are still mortal beings. No matter how pristine we feel our various systems of faith are we cannot escape the fact that we are mortal and we will make judgements and mistakes according to our current knowledge of the world, experience, suspicions and traditions. The prophet Brigham Young sent out the decree that the wagon train is not to be harmed. In fact they were instructed to assist if needed with supplies and anything else. Because they did not have email, internet or even a Harry Potter smart owl they were left with horseback as their fastest means of communication. The prophet's decree arrived a few hours too late. The incident was thoroughly investigated and the responsible parties were either excommunicated from the body of the Church or disciplined through various other means.
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v … p;locale=0
It's a much better "experience" than this one.
Now every time you visit the space needle you can throw up in your mouth without ever having to set foot in the elevator.
If they develop their own special underwear, I will readily fight them. Until then Muslims are less dangerous than other religionists. No Muslim has ever knocked on my door trying to convert me.
That was such a knee-slapper that I even missed my knee!
You can slap mine if you want. Thanks for being a good sport.
In my estimation Oklahoma City is among the last true memorials worthy of respect for the dead. If we entertain this Ground Zero idea it will put all of those WTC victims to shame even the ones we saw on television jumping out the top windows. Where is the shame among the living?
Even the Japanese have solemnly recognized the sacrifice of the American servicemen at Pearl Harbor. They were never terrorists but participants in war with boundaries. I thank them for their change of heart. There will be no healing until those of certain beliefs (terrorists) sincerely and solemnly acknowledge their abominable acts and weep before the grave of Ground Zero as they prostrate themselves to the ground.
The way you have prostrated yourself to the ground at American Indian graves?
Sad. I take it you are having a bad week to attack your fellow believers. My wife is Japanese and lost several family members in Hiroshima. IO do not recal you prostrating yourself there either, Priest.
No morals. None.
Nice picture by the way!
Just a suggestion: I hear colonoscopies do wonders for those who seek to attack those who have not provoked it. (see from top of thread)
In case you misunderstood my earlier post I am acknowledging the spirit of the Japanese in their recognizing Pearl Harbor as a dark hour in history.
By the way, I don't mind being called GP or goldenpath or whatever else on the forums but can you please not continually spit the word "priest" at me. It really makes you look not the brightest.
Boy, and I was doing so well not responding to your foul comments over the past few months. Shame on me.
Thank you - I took it myself.
So you are not a priest then?
And u attacking Islam is tolerant?
Not going to call you by your self-aggrandizing name, priest. You are not golden and you do not offer a path.
T O L E R A N C E
You can call me Master Mark if you like though.......
Well, Master, I'd of hoped that over the past nine months if anything one should know by now that I choose my words carefully. I never attacked Muslims or Islam. I did, however, use the word "terrorists." In my book they are not the same. In that one small fact I hope you and I can agree. You will find extremists in any system of belief - even atheism. We are all different which further engrains the truth and magnitude of personal responsibility for our own actions and not pawning the responsibility off on a system of belief. I don't support that particular building at Ground Zero because there is a solidified percieved link between those at the control panels of the planes and the beliefs concerning Americans that the mosque would represent. To build it would be to invite violence in my opinion.
Why does it even matter what religion they followed, and what if they were christian and gov have deciced to built a church, would you have still argued, even i dont support it but i have differnt reason, you guys are so prejuidced and backwards?
I really feel bad about whole 9\11 thing and may victims soul may rest in peace.
Because i am going to say something very anti american words from now.
I am no way supporting 9\11 incident
but yes you know what from hiroshima to nagasaki, and agent orange on vitanameese every f##ki8ng wrong deed and destruction have back up of america and thanks for f##king anti terrorism, you really made life simple around the globe. First you financed Laden to fight communism in afghan and when soviet packed bags you give whole country like a beef steak to talibani and started acting like hey we dont know anything about those rapist, F**king murderer who did deed everyday and killed and raped millions there and turn a modern country into land of sharia. and later when osama strike the venom back on US which of course Us has gifted it with loveeeeeeee. YOu acted like hey where did he come from we dont know him, he fight for islam.
Now, you were saying that they are making mosque on ground zero stop trying to push religion in this battle , this is dirty political. And you want to know why they want to make mosque there, because they want to fancy young muslims and say hey although we gifted you to talibani as a prize for fighting communism,(get your women raped and ppl killed and not to mention enforcement of sharia law), after 9\11 we treated you like dogs, conquere iraq and killed and raped innocents there, repeated the same in afghan, this time by ourselves we dont hate you muslims.
You have no f$#@king right to diss a muslim, a japenese or a vitanami or list goes on and next time you saw them respect them for behaving normal after every thing they have went through. And mosque is not for you but to fancy muslim and one another racist act from ur f#@#@#king Gov. Ask michael moore he might agree with me and think for a moment by keeping history in ur mind and putting ur prejuidces and nationalism behind.
We have already built a monument representing our values in Hiroshima.
that thing was monstrous. When i was in japan, I would occasionally try those guys... It's like two big macs at once.
But, Japanese McD's are better than American ones... they take their minimum wage jobs seriously. It's awesome: being thankful for work really makes a difference.
Obesity and diabetes are replacing lung cancer and emphysema as America's biggest exports.
... people still do the things that they shouldn't...
... it's almost like people don't CARE about those things, even if they know the consequences.
My friend went through DARE, and all the school anti-smoking stuff, he had to deal with me telling him about the health risks, and my ripping cigarettes out of his mouth....
... and yet he still CHOSE to put the damn things in his mouth and smoke.
Okay gud nite guys
Dont try to convert Tm religion, its almost like convincing laden to let his daughter wear skirt for prom
He is strict follower of racism, sexism and every bullshits. bye.
Many people have been quoting the Quran out of context in an effort to show that Islam promotes violence. A recent op-ed piece by Cal Thomas is a high profile example.
This is pure nonsense. Thomas and others doing this are taking selected passages and reading them completely out of context to support whatever argument they wish to make. I can do the same thing with the Bible.
Here are some choice passages from the KJV Bible which when read in isolation makes the Bible appear to be a primer for evil:
1) In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it’s OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.
2) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.
3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.
4) In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.
5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.
6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.
7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.
Context is important, of course, and many of these seeming cruelties disappear when read as such. However, this would not stop a Christian terrorist from interpreting the Bible in a manner necessary to concoct a religious justification for unspeakable horrors, as Pope Urban II did, for example, when he preached the First Crusade in 1095 or as many American preachers did when they used Leviticus to defend slavery.
6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.
Christ is not exhorting them for not killing thier children if they do not honor thier Mother and Father. He is exhorting them for replacing God's law with traditions and holding said traditions in higher esteem than the Law of God. That the TRADITION of financially supporting thier Mother and Father took precedence over the Word of God, is the issue in this verse.
Don't confuse the two.
7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.
In this verse Christ is using the story of Archelaous a son of Herod the great that came to power in 4 BC. This story is used to speak in regards to Christ leaving to recieve his Kingdom, and his desire to see what he has given to his servents prosper and grow, (ie: The Word Of God). Did his servants, followers, put the Minas, (Word Of God), to good use, or did they waste it, hoard it, or other-wise abuse this gift.
Having returned with authority to rule, the nobleman, (Jesus), puts the question to his servants to give an account of thier labors in his absence.
The first servant earned ten times the amount, giving him rule over ten cities. (An expression that one will be rewarded many times what he has earned in his labors.) The fact that the servant earned ten times what was given, expresses the growth of the strength of his faith and works to his master and the fruits of his word in abundance.
The second like-wise has gained in his labors and that is an expression of his strength of faith and works in his masters name.
The third though, did not gain in his labors, or even try, and his reply to his master shows not his knowledge of his master strictness, but a disdian and unfaithfulness, a lack of fear of his Lord, ie God.
This story reflects a message that one is given a gift with thier faith and that we should NOT hoard it or refuse to labor with our faith in the way of the Lord God. And that those who have no faith, or labor not in the way of thier Lord, will not be rewarded, but they shall lose that gift of everlasting life. And even all they have shall be taken from them.
Christ is in esence saying that we all have a duty to labor in this world in the name of the Lord God which we serve, and that just holding on to our faith in the shadows without laboring in its works, (ie: acting like a Christian, participating in helping your fellow man and obeying the Lord God)... is not good enough.
Now I will say this very plainly to you.
The Qu'ran can only be read and understood in context if one understands the CHRONOLOGICAL order of the suras, and, if one knows to reference the A'HADITH and the relavent text of the traditions, to seek out the historical context of the revelation itself.
Naskh also is involved, and that is where it gets very tricky indeed.
Because, though a set of verses in a sura may read fine together, it does not mean they were revealed at the same time, or not changed at some later time.
Thus the reason one needs to understand Naskh and the CHRONOLOGY of the Qu'ran in specifics. As one verse may indeed abrogate another verse, or it may abrogate only specifics of a certain verse, or verses.
There is alway a question of abrogation occurring in a general, or specific, instance... it is not always the same just cause one verse abrogates another.
Here is a very interseting article about verse 9:5 and the relavent Hadith material, along with the chronology. As you can see, or probrably already know, this verse is late Medinian, and it is known to be one of the last verses revealed by your allah.
Which by the law of Naskh, makes it an abrogating verse of all of the concilliatory verses in the Qu'ran toward the non-believers and infidels.
Context may be important in the Bible... but CHRONOLOGY IS MORE IMPORTANT in the Qu'ran, and without the proper understanding of Naskh, and a clear understand of fiqh, one would not know which verses are valid, and which are not.
But I can assure you... ALL Muslims know which verses are abrogated, and which are not.
I'll give you a hint... the nice, pretty ones, which are concilliatory in nature toward the un-believers and people of the book... are NOT valid.
To truly understand the CONTEXT of a verse in the qu'ran one must seek the Chronology and the history surrounding the revelation of said verse, or veses in question, within the Hadith. It cannot be accomplished by reading just the Qu'ran.
Nah, I don't buy that. If Jesus demands that those that don't follow them - in any context - then that automatically goes against those commandment thingies... y'know, thou shalt not kill or whatnot.
Anyone who tries to argue about religion is foolish. Religion is nothing more than government, and demanding that your religion is right is nothing more than demanding that your government is right.
"Religion is nothing more than government, and demanding that your religion is right is nothing more than demanding that your government is right."
Well, "demanding" that anything is right is pretty foolish.
The problem is that when dealing with the supernatural, all the arguments boil down to "God said so," which raises the question, "How do you know that?" And nobody can answer that question to the satisfaction of believers in other religions.
I cant believe i was trying to convince a f##king a$$ hole like you who have photo of some body like that on his pf, not only muslim but you hate everybody who are different from you and are nothing but a talibani and streotyped old idiot and you should better go to iraq and USA is not a plce to live 4 u.
The Mosque at Ground Zero will be necessary because of the expansion of the Muslim Community that has been in the downtown area just as long as there has been a Chinatown and a Little Italy. Please do some research before intruding on the people of this City. They have a right to build their Mosque right there at Ground Zero where alot of their people live, suffered and died. It is their Community and their building to do as they please with it.
By all means, create chaos and war in whatever little backwater mudhut community you live in. LEAVE MY CITY ALONE! WE ARE GOING ON!
I think the only reason the powers in new York are going along with this Mosque idea is because they assume that having this mosque will deter terrorists from attacking new york again. It also sends a message to the muslim community that they are welcome citizens, and there should be no reason why they can't build their mosque where they want. it is pretty much just public relations.
I wonder how the city would feel if someone with 100 million dollars wanted to build a very extravagant Gay bar at ground zero, complete with a bathhouse and shirtless waiters serving drinks on the sidewalk. I would bet that the city would fight it tooth and nail, and pass an ordinance to prohibit it from being built.
This isn't about Money. It's about public relations, and our representives wanting to save face. Unfortunately, a lot of our representitives are looking outside the country to pass laws and get ideas, rather than asking the people what they want. One reason why they are spending our money everywhere else but here.. And some Muslim countries are loaded, We all know politicians only go where the money flows.
It might actually be about constitutionally guaranteed rights to religion. And since the First Amendment makes no disticntion, it covers all religions.
Even those you and I seriously doubt ARE religions and I can think of more than a few.
And finally, because it is addressed in the first amendment is it NOT a states, county, city, or reserved to the people right.
There's a Teflon coated slope here folks; don't you see that?
Now that is just purely ignorant. You are saying that the people that are against the mosque are just prejudiced? The last time I checked, it wasn't gays that killed thousands of people in the World Trade Center.
The next time that you lose several close friends to some terrorist group, and the next time you see more of your close friends fall seriously ill from trying to find their remains, THEN I'll listen to you. Until then, you are just spouting a whole lot of blah, blah, blah.
After reading some of the responses on the tons of threads/posts on this subject, I am seriously questioning our humanity.
Hey, I have an idea! Let's go and build a new KKK headquarters in the middle of Harlem. Okay? At least the NAACP is on the ball and would never let that happen.
The FREEDOM and liberty in America today if FREE, but let me remind you new generation of Americans that, that it wasn't CHEAP! you liberty today was bought by the bloods of men and women, your forefathers. But it's unfortunate that you are loosing grip of it, by thinking that peace with Islamic Extremists can be bought by pacification and cowardice.
I so agree with you. Imagine putting a fun park next to a cemetary. But most people don't 'get' it.
Firstly, the purchase of the property was done most sneakily; a totally bland named company purchased the property a couple of years ago. This company was a front for an Islamic conglomerate. There is no Muslim population in the area; so it's like putting a library in the middle of a desert.
The reason why it is so close is that there are a number of Muslim holidays which will fall in September. This means that the Muslims can be said to celebrate their holiday with dancing and mirth, not to be their triumph of bringing down the towers. (Like putting a dance hall next to a funeral home).
Those who have two working brain cells, (to be distinguished from those who have on in a wheel chair and the other pushing it) appreciate that it is a deliberate spit in the face of those who died on 9/11.
The Muslim have been fantastically successful in Western nations. The UK is a fantastic home for them, for they can enjoy all benefits of UK society while preaching hate, (freedom of speech my deah boy). Americans, bending over backwards so that their heads now touch their heels, are the laughingstock of the Islamic world, which cheered 9/11.
Do a Google, and one will see how much joy was expressed by Palestinians, in Iran, and other nations of the Islamic world.
Far from it being a 'minority' which supports the aims of al qaeda, it is a minority which does not, but must keep silent for fear of death.
The fact that Donald Trump offered to buy the property for 25% more than was paid, (and was rebuffed) means, even if one brain cell is pushing another in that wheelchair, that location is the key feature.
Michael Moore wants it IN Ground Zero. So take your Islamophobia elsewhere, sir!
Lets put some decency and common sense in to this conversation. for starters they are not building a mosque, they are building a community centre. This is open to everyone Muslim or not, it has a prayer room so all the muslims have somewere to pray when it reaches that time of day. Lets make this clear, a lot of Muslim centric buildings provide space for members of their religion to pray, because they need a little bit of space, somethign which is not always easy to find.
Just because they have a designated praying area within a building, does not mean that the building is a mosque.
Secondly, you have to walk for several minutes just to find the cross street which this building is on, it is not 'at' ground zero.
The general consensus of the people I know outside America view this whole debate as another attempt at Obama character assasination.
"The general consensus of the people I know outside America view this whole debate as another attempt at Obama character assasination."
You seem like a nice guy so I hope you wont take this personal.
I don't care what anyone "outside America" thinks.
If you like Obama so much make him the leader of your country, he isn't doing anything here but golfing and screwing up our economy even more.
You can have him. Seriously, its ok.
It isn't a mosque and it isn't at ground zero. So, your entire point is void.
I think the the building of a mosque would show America's refusal to accept the hostile symbolic takeover of a faith followed by a billion people by a small group of zealots. It would be in America's interest to separate the radicals from the masses as much as possible
I also think it would be a stunning statement declaring that freedom of religion will not be destroyed by reactionary response stemming from the crimes of those lunatics.
That being said, it won't happen
You are so right.
But the folks making all the noise can't see that.
It is not a small group of zealots.
But I don't imagine posting the facts about Islam again on here would open any eyes of those who refuse to see the real world.
So I won't.
Why not just g on with your anti islam crap, this is a thread for you or ppl like you.
Is it.. is it really.
And what type of person am I?
The kind that refuse to lie about a thing, to make everyone feel good.
Yes, that is awful of me.
in your estimation, bow many people were involved in the terrorist attacks? ... or in even all the Islamic terrorist attacks over the decades?
I would say that percentage would vary over the decades. I am sure it would have been probrably as high as 90% to 97% at some point, and as low as 70% today. There are always those adverse to violence within a group... and they, the prophet cursed and despised as cowards.
And you know you do not have to attack and physically fight in the Jihad to fulfill your obligation to allah.
There are many ways one can fulfill that duty, Itjihad, Propaganda (sites, books, and such), Imams serve through spiritual inspiration to others with thier sermons, and then thier is the zakat, (and the whole Ummah is required to give in this way to supprt the jihad.) they pass it off as charity, but the true reason it was instituted by momo was to support the muhajideen.
So you tell me, when you take into account all the ways one can participate in jihad, what percentage do you think actively participate.
I know in some times, and places, itjihad, (fighting through the word and intellect), can be just as dangerous as picking up a gun, maybe more dangerous.
So you tell me what you think about percentages.
And yopu know, you don't haver to take my word on it.
How about asking those who really know.
http://formermuslimsunited.americancomm … ate-islam/
http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.ph … m1/0014881
Of course they probrably don't have a clue about Islam... right.
The how about this one...
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/03/son-o … exist.html
No he probrably doesn't know Islam either.
Man you all need to grow up and face the truth of things in this world. it is not the happy lil la la land you all think it is.
Those appear to be very credible sources #1.
Do you know how many tribes and natives were destroyed for spreading christanity and how many innocents died in hiroshima and nagasaki?
I bet you will defend it oh they attacked pearl harbour First?
I won't defend Christianity's abuses.
But it would have cost the US a million men to invade the Japanese mainland. And I would not have paid that price to save the enemy any casualties.
So yes I defend the atomic destruction of Nagasaki and Heroshima.
@ron... they are very credible sources. They know Islam better than you or any Leant Leftist ever will.
I dare say even better than I.
Innocent Japanese babies were the enemy?
I won't even bite at that twisting lil worm of my words.
If you are at odds with your words #1, maybe you should consider them before "sharing" them online.
whenever i make arguments like this against you, Ron, you always call them "Straw man" arguments.
i'm gun' cry
but seriously, this is all nonsense. Japanese kamikaze (<---- this is the correct spelling), hiroshima, nagasaki, native americans, etc etc...
... NONE OF THIS MATTERS AT ALL.
The Imam (or whatever the hell he calls himself) has the RIGHT to OWN PROPERTY and to USE THAT PROPERTY in a way that he sees fit, so long as it does NOT infringe on others' ability to do the same.
If we all just remember that one little thing, then we can clearly see he has the right to build this mosque.
I thought the "leant leftists" were in cahoots with the dreaded Muslim hoard.
wow here we go the crap about world war ending, why dont you realise TM if you were born an afghani you would have been for sure serving alqida by now that kind of person you are.
Yes I know you poor lil victim you are... I will be there soon to lead you all to victory. lol
That make you feel better.
You list alot of trash talk about America and convienently omit any bad deed by another.
Just like a leant leftist or a muslim.
It is the Muslims using the Leant Left and Progressives. You see the danger in believing there could not be any evil in the world that cannot be reasoned with, is a very useful tool to Islam.
Believe me.. I have spent time in many a Muslim nation and heard the talk first hand. They do not like the immorallity, (abortion, homosexuality, etc, etc... just list the progressive social agenda and that about covers it) spread around the world by the Left in this country, as much as they hate the might of America in its own.
Those are just facts.
And another fact is Islam respects only the MIGHT and POWER of an enemy, (us), and running around acting like lil sally with a scraped knee on the play-ground, doesn't cut it.
They laugh at us these days.
Humor or sexism... I do not care how you want to take it.
PC is not my thing... If I think it, I say.
Too much of that PC shit screws up the conversation today. Too many people do not speak up for fear of thier own words being twisted by Leftists and Progressives.
I refuse to throw my intergrity under the bus as if it were Obama's grandma.
Every orthodox religion hates thing you just mentioned and people who are backward for poor economy or socially back from modern world hates those things, they can be hindu, muslim, christan or anybody. Have you been to india, or other rthird world, everywhere people are coping with samething funny you only notices muslim not others
It was God's will. We were merely his instruments.
Well......us and the smallpox virus.
The Spanish committed Genocide when they arrived in Jamaica. There are no Taino Indians. They would read an edict written in Latin and when the local population didn't comply, they killed/enslaved them.
Holy War is not a private Islamic feature. The point is, why put the Centre two blocks from Ground Zero if not to cause dissension? It is like opening a butcher shop next to a Mosque or Synagogue where the blood of the pigs rolls into the street. Why put it there?
That the owners have refused offers to purchase for far more than they paid is evident that the location is the key feature.
The end of Ramadan, the celebration of Eid happened to fall on Sept 10 this year. Can you imagine what would happen when it falls on the 11th?
Well, since you asked...
I think that the percentage of Muslims who have participated in some way in violent acts of terrorism (ie criminal acts) over the last century is less than 1 percent of 1 percent of 1 percent.)
Our failure to separate the violent from everyone else, and to form policies based on that separation, is EXACTLY what the lunatics who would kill us all would want.
Wishful thinking, greek...
Most muslims support the Jihad against non-believers and people of the book.
As commanded in this verse...
9:5 When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful.
And the permanence of Jihad is sustained through this revelation...
(2:216) "Fighting is prescribed upon you, and you dislike it. But it may happen that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. And Allah knows and you know not."
http://millah-ibrahim.com/jihad-holy-wa … had-part-1
So you have a long uphill battle convincing anyone of the peaceful nature of Islam and its peaceful effects upon its adherants.
This is where the law of abbrogation, "Naskh", is a neccessary knowledge, and must be understood in its aplication. But then again lets just use the peaceful verses, so everyone will be happy in la la liberal land.
My direct exposure to Muslims has been limited to the hundreds of lovely Muslims I have met in the admittedly not-so fundamentalist region of Toronto... as well as the knowledge that many of my not-to-distant ancestors have been slaughtered at the hands of Muslims for ethnic and religious purposes. I'm not debating the nature of Islam, or if it is better than any other religion.
My question to you was not whether you can find verses in the Quran that support violence.. others more familiar with the religion can quote right at back you verses that speak of peace.
My question was how many Muslims have participated in violent acts of terrorism based out of adherence to their religion.
Of course there is absolutely NOTHING in the Christian holy books advocating violence or anything remotely like it. Nope, their god is all hugs and love.
Well, except for some well deserved smiting. And wanting to burn witches. Cutting off hands, tearing out tongues. Stuff like that. Nothing important.
Have you read the New Testament?
And I do not mean the, Old Testament... I specifically mean the, New Testament.
My Holy Book.
Show me any command to violence it the text of the New Testament.
I'll be waiting... patiently.
@greek... They can quote them all they want.. you see greek, I have studied Islam and understand the application of Naskh, abrogation. I know what verses are valid, and which are not.
This is an aspect of Islam that many do not even know exists, or think is okay to ignore. I can assure you no muslim ignores the value of Naskh, none of them.
19 divided by 1 billion sounds like a pretty small group of zealots to me
That's a good point! I see that point but we also have to be mindful of the propaganda effect of having a Mosque on those grounds that our enemies could use against us. For that reason I would not be in favor of having the Mosque built there.
So you think that because you look at thier symbol of dominance and conquest, as a symbol of our tolerance, that solves it.
What a bunch of lost logic that is.
So we should let NAZIs build monuments In israel, say a big staue of an over, to prove Israel is tolerant... lol
That is the backward logic I have come to expect to be pushed by the left.
Anything a mojority of Americans find moral... the left finds offensive.
Anything valued by Americans... the left spits on .
And if Americans do not like it... we are intolerant.
HUh!... what a bunch of BS.
With that logic thier would still be slavery... no no let the lil plantaion be... it shows we are tolerant.
BS... it shows we are weak!
Yeah, we sneer at the dumbest stuff. You know, like hating gays. Stuff like that. What's WRONG with us?
Oh, my mistake. I thought you liked simple. Black and white, right and wrong. Absolute morality. Your kind of thinking, isn't it?
No Pc... my, "kind" of thinking, is truth over the lie, integrity over the apoligist rhetoric, pride in my Nation over treasonous anti-American babbling, and last but not least... standing for what is right, and morally valued... in the face of what is immoral and abusive.
Let me know if you want to know anything else about me... I am not shy about who i am.
Everything you've said here on this forum, TMMason, has been against property rights, against the Constitution, against religious freedom, and against freedom in general.
You must realize that these comments will come back to haunt you any other time you ever argue FOR the things I've listed.
If I am not mistaken,there were millions of people in the Nazis movement and the military efforts and violence theu were responsible for. So I'll ask you again... are you saying that millions of Muslims have committed acts of violent terrorism??
As I am not from the US, nor from 'the left', I will let others comment on whether what 'America finds moral" is best left to your interpretation...
but I must compliment you on one thing... after being on Hubpages for over a year, I don't I have seen one Avatar that is more appropriate than yours
Thank you, I am glad you like it.
I stated that I believe approx 80% percent of muslims around the world are involved in terrorism either through direct, or indirect means.
I will not go into a number specific count with you as it would be a long and most likely friutless topic.
And yes, ole Joe does suit me. Un-afraid to speak the truth though it may cost him all... and it did.
The greatest American Politician to walk the America political stage in the 20th century.
R.I.P. ole Joe. We got your back... them commie lovin, hate filled, anti-American subversives, who wish to turn America into lil russia, cannot hurt you anymore.
The lies have been shattered, and the truth shall redeem you ole Joe.
I salute you.
M.Stanton Evans, telling it like it is.
You do realize that your ole Joe's approach to politics and its effect on freedom was very reminiscent of the type of society Russia's Uncle Joe built, right?
Please... stop showing off how much you do not know.
Don't buy the lie... ole joe was the man.
You do know it was FDR and the progressives who named Stalin, "Uncle Joe"... yeah it was great PR for the leant left and Progressives, and really helped to push the progressive liberal anti-American agenda along.
Yup.. nothing beats You tube videos of old Joe in action....
and since we are sharing, this is by far my personal favorite of the man... kinda sums up his entire political career (and helped end it too)
Oh please you know how much has been made of the clip.
And we know now Marshall was well aware of the subversives and commie agents all throughout sensitive areas of the military and intelligence.
Just like we know the "Pink Dintist" was really a "red dentist"... hahaha and lil ms anne mea was a fellow traveler also.
You all can say whatever you want.... ole joe was right.
And the records prove it.
He was right.
he was right?
was America taken over by the commies?
I thought Reagan looked suspicious!
Oh they are well on thier way to fundamentally transforming us right now by one more step,... what do you think comes after Socialism?
Please greek... at least read the book and examine the record, (all the record, FBI, NSA, VENNONA, and so many more it isnt funny, before you continue to speak on a subject that is right now in a state of flux. The truth is out...
And I would hate for you to be the last to know.
Or is that you all think these agencies all conspired over half a century ago to make ole Joe look good in 2010?
lol yeah now thats a conspiracy.
it is a term of speech cannoting in a state of change and motion.
Really Greek... at least read the evidence and then decide. If not then I will just chalk it up to having a closed mind.
You know... I used to be a died in the wool liberal democrat. I was born and raised in Lynn and Boston Mass. the belly of the liberal beast.
And here I am a convert to the independent party and a supporter of ole Joe.
I would have never thought it 25 or 30 years ago.
lol.. thanks.. but what I am asking is what subject is in a state of flux? the level of communist infiltration in the US decades ago?
Was it a terrible accident? Were you unconscious for long?
The Joe McCarthy issue and the elements of our govt which are still infected by that desease. Also it is very eye opening as to the contridictory nature of American foriegn policy for the last 7 decades or more.
It all makes sense, when you know the facts, and who was doing what.
Obviously this is nothing but a joke to you.
So sad... I thought you were someone who would not shy from the truth no matter how ugly it might be, or how dis-tasteful. Someone who would actually look to see if what is said is true or not.
But I guess not, some would rather just live in the lie.
I woke up 20 years ago and after the intial shock of having been so blind and dumb, lead along like an ass on a cart, it was the greatest thing in the world.
PC... I hope someday you will be able to see... but I doubt it.
And no it wasn't an accident... it was an awakening. I simply looked at my whole world and realized it was not, what it was sold as.
And I could see why.
Or should I say who.
Of course I hold my own guilt in this tragedy which has occurred to our country in the name of liberal Progressivism and tolerance.
They sell it so nice... like a rainbow in a box.
Of course once you crack the box, the stench of what is really in there brings you back to reallity.
And it is a rude awakening.
I really don't mean any offense.. I'm just asking for clarification of what you are trying to say? What is the truth that you say I am shying away from??
Are you saying that there is a conspiracy in government circles that has been slowly transforming the country into a communist state since McCarty's era?
They want a Socialist paradise, which has never and will never exist.
History teaches that a Govt that can take from one class of citizens to give to another... can also take from all classes and keep for itself. And most end up doing so.
Yes that is what I have been saying... read the Progressive and Socialist party platforms. They state it clearly, and that it will take decades to acomplish. They started in the early 1900s and have slowly and steadily marched forward.
WWII gave the commies, red agents, fellow travelers, and sympathizers of Stalins Russia and the commies under Mao, a perfect opurtunitty. They had already infiltrated the OWI and OSS and the State dept. and when the war ended they all were absorbed into the State dept, (13000 of them) where they quietly sat and minipulated our foriegn policy. The FBI and some others managed to cut that # to about 4000 of them and then ran into road-blocks from above.
(you have never wondered why America's foriegn policy was always so contradictory?)
If you would take a few minutes and watch the video I posted M Stanton Evan explains it in pretty good detail for a 20 min vid., and his book is so in depth and well written it is a work of art. And chock full of actual evidence of what was happening and proving that, McCarthy was right.
And he is only scraping the surface in it.
And he has the facts to back it up, even quotes his sources and agency records, and KGB decrypts and kremlin records. It wouldn't take long... and it would answer your questions in greater detail, greek.
I mean you feel free to believe as you want... but I think if you looked at the evidence, no matter what you thought of McCarthy personally, you would see the truth.
You don't have to like a man, to respect the truth when it is spoken.
How about a nice Mapplethorpe picture in the McCarthy museum?
Don't worry I am currently gaining funds to build a momorial to ole Joe in Wisconsin. I will invite all you leftists to the dedication ceremony.
I imagine you will enjoy it.
I am horrified that Americans have become so intolerant. LRohner, I'm surprised at you. What possible parallel is there between the KKK and Islam?
Islam is a religion, followed by millions of peaceable people. Yes, there is a minority of crazies in that religion but then Christianity has had its share of extremists, too.
The vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists. Treating them with prejudice and contempt is reprehensible.
How about a few facts.
There is no proposed Mosque at Ground Zero.
I encourage any reasonable person to reject the rabble-rousing by the teabaggers and look at the facts.
There is a proposed 13-story Muslim Center, not a Mosque at 45 Park Place if you want to map it relative to the World Trade Center site, over 2 blocks away. The building won't look down on Ground Zero - this is NYC - a 13-story building in the area is a shack. I'm told by a resident of NYC theres a 20-story building just South and an even bigger gov't building south of that - between the 'Mosque' and Ground Zero. It's not built on Ground Zero - or with government money. It's funded by the Cordoba Initiative, which is by responsible accounts, an association of moderate, peaceful Muslims - the kind we WANT as neighbors. Or did we declare war on a religion when I wasn't paying attention?
This discussion IS important because it allows people to decide if they believe in Freedom of Religion and tolerance. Just look at the facts in comparison to the rhetoric of the bigots. Then look and see who the bigots are with and decide what kind of America you want. They are making the choice very clear.
Tm i have told you all i could and everyone else
now its your decision
Oh please... what.. I should be awed and stupified by your collective knowledge.... Hahahahaha...lolllllllll Right!
lol please stop my gut hurts so bad.
It is gratifying when your suspicions about the mental condition of someone are confirmed so firmly, though..
Greek asked... "Surely though if the KGB and the Soviets sent people over, they would be trying to create a communist state, not a Swedish like social democracy.. or do you believe that the two systems are one in the same?"
I do not believe they are exactly the same.
I know though, they are all the defective children of Marxism, as in Marxism, Lenninism, Stalinism, Mao-ism see the progression, Greek.
They will be happy to colectivise our society.
And then they will move forward from there.
Once they have gained the power to seize and distribute wealth... it is all down hill from there.
And we are heading more toward Greece and England, or France at the moment, if we're even that lucky.
They know Americans would never out-right except Communism, (they state as much in thier Platforms and charters), as we would never have excepted out-right the implimentation of Socialism.
Thus the genious of, "creeping incrementilism".
As I stated earlier in this post, that has been the agenda of the far Left for 90 years now, and they freely express it on thier sites and in thier platforms.
PC himself exemplifies this attitude as it has been pushed in the schools and on our children. The young have been indoctrinated to the belief that collectivism is the answer to all the individuals and society's problems, wants, and desires.
He, PC, stated clearly last night. That he belives the only way to have a, "fair" society, is through the creation of a strong and interferring govt. With control over every aspect of the individuals life.
The very anti-thesis of the intent of this nations creation.
That is why the Houses of Higher Education do not teach the evils of Stalin, Mao, Che and Castro, among so many other failed attempts at that political ideology.
On the contrary they push the imaginitive hupla about the great societies of Stalin's Russia, and Mao's China, without a word in the least in regards to the masses, tens of tens of millions, of lives lost to those distorted and unatainable dreams.
The founders new well the dangers of a collectivist consolidated Govt., and they warned against it in very strong words, in many different arguments.
That is why they do not teach the Constitution in Colleges and Universities in America. Even in Law Schools through-out this nation they never have the students look to the Constitution in thier education.
As the contridictions in our law in regards to the Constitution would be so flagrently obvious that many would have no choice but to say... "what the hell have we done".
When one looks at the records we have now,(NSA, FBI, KGB, VENNONA, the State Dept, OSS, OWI, the records from the Eastern Bloc countries, and so many, many foriegn agencies, that all support and confirm one another), then the contridictory nature of our foriegn policy in the last century, comes very clear to any who does not refuse to see, because of teachings they will not, or cannot, let go of.
Either that, or there is a world wide conspiracy that was put together over 80 years ago to make Joseph R. McCarthy a hero in 2010, after the fall of the Berlin wall and the opening of the KGB and Kremlin records... I find that a lil far fetched.
But I guess Alex Jones and his ilk would probrably love the immensity of it and the complex timing and planning involved in pulling something of this magnitude off.
As I stated before, even Vennona the KGB, and those soviet agents who have defected from Russia, have confirmed this infiltration of our govt and the minipulation of our foriegn poilicy. Why do you think alot of the world hates us for sayong we stand for one thing and then we do another in compltete contridiction to our own values and mores.
This is only new information to the American public... many others have been very aware of this method and its creeping hold on American politics for many decades. Including many prominent Democrats and people of the left and Right.
Tydings(D)of the of the Tydings Commision, and HAUC supplied much of his files and names, many who supplied McCarthy with many of the names he had, and files he possessed, new of this infitration.
But they, Tydings and the others, did not have the guts to stand against it, as they saw and new the powerful forces at work within our govt to change it, and defend those who were bringing about this change.
So they let mcCarthy out to hang... turning thier backs on him and denying any involvment. We now know that is untrue... that many were supplying McCarthy with his info... they cannot deny it anymore.
But what else is new... a politician denying his involvement to save his own skin.
And the American public is always the last to know of course... and always the last to accept the facts.
It is very hard for Americans to shrug off the apathy of in-ability to do anything about something so seemingly massive and powerful.
And of course many Americans just believe, it simply could not happen here... and they, are dead wrong!
It's hard for me to see Stalin plotting and scheming for ways in which to inflict public healthcare upon the American people.
Surely the level and nature of a government's involvement in a domestic economy can vary from a country to country... and change overtime.... the degree to which is up for a free people to decide through the electoral process. These same types of debates were going on during Jefferson's and Adam's times, not to mention during and after the industrial revolution.
Why not just go with the fact that people can differ with what the role of the state should be.. and let the democratic process, guided by the framework of the Constitution and the law, determine the nation's path?
Why fear foreign elements bent on infiltrating the boarders of the country with devious ideas? Can't Americans decide for themselves and determine what policies are beneficial or not?
I don't want anyone who lacs critical thinking skills to be fooled here. TMMason has the avatar of one of the most reviled figures of American history. Mason would like to rehabilitate the reputation, possibly because Mason admired the methods.
Don't get sucked into a grat falicy by a minor truth. Joe McCarthy was not shut down by the US Senate in 1954 by a vote of 67 to 22. The rreason for the censure was not a Congressional declaration that there was no such thing as Commmunism or that there were no Communists in America or even in government. The censure was for tactics worse than the threat of Communism. SUGGESTING THAT THERE IS PROOF OF COMMUNISM IN THE US IN 1950 DOES NOT VINDICATE JOE MCCARTHY.
While Joe was on the rise, he made it a 'crime' to be ACCUSED of being a Communist. The penalty for beinag accused was not prison time. You were 'blacklisted' which means you would not obtain work in major fields like entertainment or journalism becuae your employer would run the risk of also being blacklisted. I suspect that this is the same tactic the Nazis used in the persecution of the Jews. A german who objected in the early stages of the persecution ran the risk f being ostercised in German society as sympathetic to the Jews.
"When the records of the closed executive sessions of the subcommittee under McCarthy's chairmanship were made public in 2003–4, Senators Susan Collins and Carl Levin wrote the following in their preface to the documents:
Senator McCarthy’s zeal to uncover subversion and espionage led to disturbing excesses. His browbeating tactics destroyed careers of people who were not involved in the infiltration of our government. His freewheeling style caused both the Senate and the Subcommittee to revise the rules governing future investigations, and prompted the courts to act to protect the Constitutional rights of witnesses at Congressional hearings... These hearings are a part of our national past that we can neither afford to forget nor permit to reoccur."
Wikipedia on Joe McCarthy
Watch the teabaggers on the subject of Freedom of Religion and the Moslem religion. See if they are not trying to 'pin a star' on every Moslem in America and make them the 'Jew" in American societyand blacklist every American who would come to their defense. The shadow of Joe McCarthy looms large here.
I'm curious, did they get the okay to build the center? Do they own that property that ground zero is located on?
So this is all just speculation? I don't see the point in getting all worked up over a speculation.
I believe they, the Imam and his, are awaiting notice of the ruling from the Historical Commission. I could be wrong though. I have not heard much about it lately.
I know there were those calling for investigation into the money aspect of it, some 140 million dollars, and the origins of that cash.
Rep Peter King was on yelling about wanting investigation before anything was approved.
But I am not sure where it stands as of just this second.
I would think in the end the Imam will claim it is not a mosque, and NY will bow to Islam and let them plant thier temple on the remains of the ruins of thier conquest.
Heh, if I've learned one thing it's to not believe anything you get in an email. This story has all the hallmarks of an email story.
Elpaso, I don't know about anyone else, but it seems to me that Muslims are too insular for their own good. Much like the Jewish people, insular societies don't fare too well in the minority. Most of the anger and hate is due to the fact that all most people know of Islam is what they saw on 9/11. Muslims could go a long way to ending that by opening up and getting involved not only with their own people, but with the community at large.
The story of Muslims today is not very different from that of the Irish a century and a half ago. There were ugly incidents like the Know Nothings and Irish convents being burned to the ground by an ignorant populace. Today, however, you'd be hard pressed to find any animosity toward the Irish, in point of fact everyone is Irish on St. Paddy's Day. My point is that there is a way to acceptance in this country, you just have to be open and make people feel safe in trusting you.
For their trouble; they are being labled terrrorist who wants to build a VICTORY MONUMENT in the middle of Ground Zero.
Thank God, reasonable people on the community board voted to deny the request to have the building, that will be used for the new Mosque; declared a landmark. The Muslim people here in New York are making the effort to be seen as the peaceful loving people they really are.
I've believe that one of the issues facing Islam today is the same sort of thing that faced Christianity around the time of the Wars of Religion in Europe. The idea that you can force conversion by the sword is and should be repugnant to any human being, religious or not.
Again, I think the big problem is not enough outreach by Muslims in general. Apparently you have the support of your neighbors in the local community board. Most Americans tend to be reasonable people. Well there are exceptions, of course, and many seem to get an inordinate amount of airtime. The fact remains, however, that Americans tend to be pretty fair minded.
It could have been worse. During WW II the President authorized an illegal deportation and incarceration of Japanese, German and Italian citizens; so we have come a long way in a short amount of time. But it will take work, patience and understanding from both sides in order to foster a civilized modus viviendi.
So it is going to be a mosque... it wasn't going to be yesterday.., or the day before... but now that it is oked, it is.
For a week now I have heard nothing but it is a communitty center not a mosque... now it is a mosque.
I wish someone would make up my mind.
As I said the proposed name of the mosque alone tell the tale.
Some belly crawler running for office here in New York said the Imam that is building the Mosque is going to put a Mural on one of the walls. The mural will have the faces of the men that flew the 9/11 planes. The right wing conservatives and republicans no longer care about truth or the reality of the instant fact check. They feel they will reach enough (mildly retarded)people to spread the hate and lies, and hopefully catch on...It hasn't worked so far. The community board voted to deny the request to have the building declared a landmark.
This is one candidate I'm going to watch closely. I can't wait to hear his next speech or interview. The reporters here in New York are going to btch slap that fool all around his microphone.
"The right wing conservatives and republicans no longer care about truth or the reality of the instant fact check. They feel they will reach enough (mildly retarded)people to spread the hate and lies, and hopefully catch on..."
Why would right wing conservatives want to reach members of the democrat party?
And "mildly" is a bit generous don't you think?
Oh that was good...but I feel you can give us a better thought out response about a candidate for office that starts his campaign off with very hurtful, vicious lies and some outright bigoted statements about the Muslim faith in general.
I have to get back to you on the name of this clown.
Funny you should ask such a question this late in the thread. Still you won't get an honest answer from any of the Right wing nuts that want to incite bigotry and hatred with OUTRIGHT LIES.
Here is the truth:
The Mosque is going to be built in the middle of a sidestreet. TWO BLOCKS AWAY, AROUND THE CORNER, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BLOCK, IN A BUILDING THAT THE MOSLIM PEOPLE OWN.
They are building this new Mosque because the one they now use is too small for the growing congregation. The only plot here is by people who want to spread hate and ignorance for the purpose of making war on their neighbors. And, its being pushed by people that dont want to just go away. They have to keep hate alive to stay in the GD news papers!
The question was... "Did they get the okay? Do they own the property they want it to be on?". She said ground zero but I assuming she meant the building.
Not a request for your biased view about right wingers.
And the insult comes from people who are tied to terrorism, the Imam, wanting to build a symbol of conquest and domination on the ruins of the rubble of 9/11. Just the name of the proposed mosque tells you all you need to know about its intent.
Not the, "Right wingers".
I live in New York, I'm sick of SAFE COWARDS speaking so boldly undercover. I'm tired of being attacked. Show us New Yorker's how deeply 9/11 touched you. Tell the real terrorist who you are and where you live and draw the attention away from the City you feel so passionately about protecting.
I don't think TMM really read what you wrote prior...
You mean like your brethren that slaughter woman and children in their cowardly attacks?
Or do you mean like the ones who use tiqiyya and kithman for the puposes of spreading Islamic hatred of all?
Or do you mean like the heroes of Islam you wish to honor with your mosque in NY.?
Or like the brave men who stone women to death in your Islamic nations around the world?
Or perhaps you mean like your coward prophet, Mohhammud, who ran from the field of battle against the Ethiopians?
Would you like my address?
I would love for you to send your brothers to my house... it would be quite fun to introduce them to my American friends, Henry, Smith and his buddy Wesson.
I have spoke my mind about Islam in many a public venue, and not once have I allowed islamic intolerance to cease my words.
I will be in Boston in 5 or 6 weeks... I'll come over to NY to meet you el.
Why don't we have lunch and you can say what you want to my face.
We will see who the coward is then... because I will say everything I say on here to your face. And you can even bring a mob of your frothing fanatical cowardly buddies.
I think I know who the coward is.
"I think I know who the coward is."
I can't help what you think you are. You need to discuss that with you local mental health care professional. I am not a Muslim. I am not a part of any religious cult, Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. But, if any of them want to build a place of worship anywhere in my City; they are welcome to do it. But, if you feel the need to discuss this further with me personally, just do the email thing, and we can get together as soon as possible to discuss what you are, what you think I am, or anything else you feel you cant resolve with your shrink. I hope to see you soon.
And it is not "your" city. Get a life and go tell someone else what they can and cannot protest.
Duh... your city... lol what a joke.
A whole lot of New Yorkers are against this mosque also. Including many of my family that live there and have lived there for a over a century.
Your city... what an arrogant , you need to figure out your opinion isn't the only one, and it counts no more than any others.
Your city... lolllll what a joke.
Oh and my family that oppose this mosque being built vehemently, are liberal democrats... and they see it for the BS pissing on America and New York that it is.
Community board 29 to 1 in FAVOR of 'Mosque' -
"A government group representing lower Manhattan voted last night in favor of plans to build a controversial mosque two blocks from the World Trade Center site. After four hours of discussions between opponents and supporters of the proposed Muslim community center, called Cordoba House, the community board voted 29-to-1 in favor of the plans.
The vote is not binding in any way, but is seen as a gauge of public opinion. Mayor Michael Bloomberg, State Senator Daniel Squadron and City Council Speaker Christine Quinn support the plans for the 13-story building, which would include a swimming pool, auditorium , exhibition space and as an area for worship. "
"New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg has defended the construction of a proposed mosque near Ground Zero, saying that it must be allowed to proceed because the government "should not be in the business of picking" one religion over another.
"I think it's fair to say if somebody was going to try, on that piece of property, to build a church or a synagogue, nobody would be yelling and screaming," The New York Post quoted Bloomberg, as saying."
TMMason - your religious bigotry is in the minority - and the teabaggers know it. That's why they LIE about what the center is and WHERE it is to try to build opposition with lies where the truth would never cause a stir.
Just because TMMason doesn't agree to a mosque two blocks away form Ground Zero doesn't make him a religious bigot. And he is not in the minority. According to a Quinnipiac Poll from July 1, 2010, 52% of New Yorkers are opposed to the construction of the mosque. (Google Quinnipiac Poll New York City Voters Oppose Mosque)
So Doug, you are misinformed and spouting about something you know little about.
I was born and raised here in New York. But, I would never have the arrogance, some people have, to tell other people where they should live or how they should prey, or where they can build their holy places.
Then you should know that all have a right to voice their opinions... and that New York is not, "yours".
And I will tell anyone who is illegally here, "You cannot live, or stay here, go home and do it right".
Then you can live here.
Just as I would tell any other criminal what they are doing is wrong.
And as to where they can pray.
They can pray anywhere they want.
But I will never agree to their building of an Islamic Mosque in tribute to the conquering of New York and America as a financial super-power at or near the 9/11 site.
Too bad if you do not like it.
Interesting. Thanks for filling me in.
Scared of the truth, Doug... and please, do not confuse McCarthy with HAUC. Two very different things... and HAUC is who blacklisted your hollywood friends and acamadecians.
lol... Do you not know anything about this topic?
And we can look at those records for ourselves and see the truth of it Doug.
We do not need Collins the Progressive, or Levin the the democrat, to tell us what they say. They, Collins and Levin, have a vested interest in keeping the truth buried, Doug.
As I have stated over and over, no one needs to take my word on it. It is all there for everyone to see for themselves.
A Progressive and a Democrat say so... so we should just believe them and you.
Your rank fear comes from the fact that you and others of your ilk, know very well the truth as has been revealed by the records of so many agencies and Govts. points to the Leftists as assisting in treason, if not being traitors, themselves.
It is a scary thing to know, we see you... all of you.
And you need to get over your obsession with the tea-party, Doug. It just brings the fear in you, right out front and center for everyone to see.
Funny, I have supplied links to information which shows the Dems, the Lefts, and the Progressives involvment in this... and you use a Progressive and a Democrat to back your word... as if that makes it true.
vested interests... I would continue to tell everyone look at the information for yourself.
It is all in the light of day now and cannot be denied.
Vennona and the Communists spies who have defected over the years, speak volumes on thier own, they don't need me to lie for them.
And if it isn't true... then why are all you Leant leftists so scared others may indeed look for themselves.
I know why.
Cause then they will see you... all of you, for what you are.
And McCarthy's tactics were nothing compared to the race-baiting anti-American class warfare tactics espoused by the Leant Leftists and Progressives of today.
Huh! What a joke your assertions are... Democrats, Leant Leftists and Progressives today thrive off race-baiting and flinging hate and classic marxist class warfare... and your going to talk about Joe.
Right... as I said... what a joke.
The people on here can make up thier own minds Doug... and if they choose to follow your advice and not look and see for themselves... then so be it.
I, on the other hand, suggest and advise everyone look and read and search and see what the truth is, for themselves.
I know, that is just so devious of me.
Oh... and anyone who bothers to look will see that not only were the names McCarthy had,... supplied by Tydings, the FBI and Hauc among many others.
But also that McCarthy himself refused to name names in open sessions of the Senate. He demanded they do this in a closed session and was denied by the Dems.
Who then said he was lying because he would not state names in public as it may... in his words... "Harm these people if indeed some of them were innocent.
And that is a fact of history.
One of the most revealing historicaI works have ever read...
http://www.amazon.com/Blacklisted-Histo … 140008105X
Lets see what Accuracy In Academia has to say about ole Joe, and M Stanton Evans.
Tobey, you took the words right out of my mouth when you said "How about a monument to Kamikaze Pilots at Pearl Harbor or a statue of Harry Truman in Hiroshima?" The mere thought that it would ever be a good idea to build a mosque at Ground Zero is probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of. Beyond that, the fact that more people in this country are not absolutely outraged by even the idea of it is something I can't quite put my finger on. What kind of an America have we become? And if we continue on this way, how long will we even get to BE America anymore?
I'm gonna quote Elpaso because he said it so well -
Here is the truth:
The Mosque is going to be built in the middle of a sidestreet. TWO BLOCKS AWAY, AROUND THE CORNER, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BLOCK, IN A BUILDING THAT THE MOSLIM PEOPLE OWN.
They are building this new Mosque because the one they now use is too small for the growing congregation. The only plot here is by people who want to spread hate and ignorance for the purpose of making war on their neighbors. And, its being pushed by people that dont want to just go away. They have to keep hate alive to stay in the GD news papers!
I encourage any reasonable person to reject the rabble-rousing by the teabaggers and look at the facts.
There is a proposed 13-story Muslim Center, not a Mosque at 45 Park Place if you want to google map it relative to the World Trade Center site, over 2 blocks away. The building won't look down on Ground Zero - this is NYC - a 13-story building in the area is a shack. I'm told by a resident of NYC theres a 20-story building just South and an even bigger gov't building south of that - between the 'Mosque' and Ground Zero. It's not built on Ground Zero - or with government money. It's funded by the Cordoba Initiative, which is by responsible accounts, an association of moderate, peaceful Muslims - the kind we WANT as neighbors. Or did we declare war on a religion when I wasn't paying attention?
Google the FACTS! Check the Cordoba Initiative - it's not a radical movement. Google the address of the center and look at a map. We are being lied to by teabaggers about the issue.
Thank you! It is not on ground zero. It is a few blocks away..I think it is the Ismaili people. They've been in that neighbourhood for 27 years. And they want to build a community centre - it's a gathering place - they pray and they gather as a community - what's wrong with that?
Well, I supported the building of a Jamatkhana (Ismaili) in my neighbourhood. I got a lot of sh** for that. I heard people ranting about terrorists, etc...and those that didn't want to look like they were racist...ranted about parking and all kinds of stupid things to prevent the establishment of a Jamatkhana. Anyway, a woman I've known and worked with for about 10 years is from that community and asked if I'd support it. I had worked with her on a couple of initiatives and still do - one I'd hire business students through her work at our local university (from all over the world) and mentor them to become accountants. two - I was involved with her efforts around world poverty - the Aga Khan - The World Partnership Walk. Anyway, so innocent or should I say naive me, had no hesitation to support a community centre - a Jamatkhana. All the ranting has stopped finally - people don't notice anymore or point fingers and have stopped with their spread of hate...it's probably gone underground but I can't do anything about that. I felt honoured to receive an invitation from the Aga Khan to attend the opening. And you know, some of those people that gave me a hard time for supporting the Jamatkhana, were hurt that they weren't invited to the opening. WTF?
This kind of stuff is pure hate...and if someone keeps repeating information that is skewed or false...people believe start believing it....i'll give it the benefit of the doubt and say they innocently believe it.
I originally thought it was about ground zero - but it has nothing to do with ground zero.
This same Ismaili group in my neighbourhood is in touch with me regularly because they know I work with families living in poverty and people suffering from mental illnesses. They come to offer help.
Thank you again, for bringing this to my attention.
I hope you read Elpaso's comment (about 3 scrolls up). A New Yorker who is fed up with out-of-towners standing on the ruins of 9/11 and spouting lies - and much more qualified is he than I - to speak on the subject. Much of his comments are imbeedded late in the discussion and were missed.
Yes, thank you too Elpaso!...I didn't read all of the posts once it turned into an argument....I noticed your post Doug and of course had to ask the question....and then I searrched and read...and looked at Elpaso's and it brought back memories of my own experience.
I'm logging off now....thank you again...and both of you have a good evening!
Thank you for looking for the truth and accepting it. Some people here don't want to hear the truth, and they don't want you to know the truth either. The truth is not profitable.
Also keep in mind that we observe the annual anniversary of the death of the victims. It's a tribute to them and definitely not to the Saints at the time. The Church has erected a monument at the site. Again, a tribute to them and not to the Saints at the time.
It's amazing how threads started about violence and religion tends to eventually come back to the Mormon faith. Contemplate who is really orchestrating the avenues of thought when these topics arrive. Constant doubt and distrust is from only one source.
It's the underwear. It really pisses us off!
the OP was and is a LIE. Did you look at the facts? It's not 'constant doubt and distrust from the one source' to bring the truth to light. The Morman faith is arguably the most persecuted religin in American history. And yet you advocate discriminating against Islam and the right fo peacefully assemble for 'fellowship' of an Islamic flavor and against worship - of the Moslem kind.
The word 'vile' comes to mind.
However, if there are things not understood then please ask.
No, that's pretty much the only aspect that interests me.
As long as no one knocks on my door..
Then - there will be trouble.
No need to be the big bad GI Joe. Either put a sign on your door that says, "no solicitors", or just simply say "not interested." There's no reason to badger or try to incite anger in others. That's a direct reflection of how one feels about one's own integrity and ability to peacefully express your wishes. No harm, no foul.
Yes, like most religions we do have undergarments among worthy members of the church. They are sacred every bit as much as your money or home is to yours - and more. They are an outward expression of an inner committment to serve the Lord as we see fit. There's no shame in that. Yes, you will find this a common practice in many religions.
As far as the missionaries are concerned at least give them some credit. They wear their suits even if it's extremely hot or cold outside. That alone takes a lot of faith.
Oh well - in that case - it is fine that you murder in the name of the Lord. Same as all the other Christian Cults.
But - feel free to take that as an attack on freedom.
Still - nice to see you agree that you are no better or worse than anyone else and have nothing special to offer. I agree. Just another Christian cult that kills people who do not follow along.
That colonoscopy idea really seems to suit your prognosis. Don't separate yourself from any other organized or disorganized belief system or faith. Atheists as well have just as much blood on their hands in the name of, not Lord, but utter hatred just as religious groups have exhibited in the past. Thanks for the condescending dialogue. Not much changes after about a year.
There are many on HubPages that claim to be and portray a "holier than thou" attitude. What should be noted is that exact mentality is clearly shown by those without faith. Faith aside, it is human nature to feel threatened by opposing views and, therefore, the overwhelming urge to strike out punches through in order to defend against a threat that's not even physical. This is clearly shown in all subjects of life whether religious, political, sports or even gardening. This is where the necessary mastering of understanding and tolerance comes in. You nor I can grow as individuals without learning these skills. Without it we as a civilization will utterly destroy ourselves. When that happens it will not be because of a "god", religion or even the lack of religion. It will be because we gave in to human nature and did not master understanding and tolerance.
You are right. I don't put myself on a platform of hierarchy. I'm no better or worse than anyone else. However, the one claim I do have is that I at least make the strong concerted effort to understand, tolerate and respect others and their beliefs. I don't feel threatened. I am exillerated and interested in learning new views and perspectives. Even those I don't agree with. Only by stripping the walls of pride can we catch even a glimpse of understanding.
We are nothing but children as we constantly pick on each others' history and specific points of faith. It's stupid and only serves to build one's own self and perspective up. There's no tolerance in that! So go ahead, one and all, and let the chips fall where they may, OR take a higher path and learn to understand and tolerate even the smallest of us. I say that because I'm only 5'3"!
And all that pius crap ignored the central issue. That there is NOT a mosqe proposed at Ground Zero - it's an Islamic Center several blocks away - and you contune to oppose it which makes you a religous bigot.
What difference does it make what you call the building Doug? The people that want to build "Whatever" is Muslim. If they were building a Childrens Hospital on the site, there would still be the same reaction from people that want to destroy all Muslims for being Muslims. Why bother to dress it up?
Because it's intended to be a social center - with a swimming pool fur-cryin'-out-loud. The wingnuts want to describe this as a religous structure towering over (or built on) the site of the word trade center. It's going to be an ordinary 13-story building that can't see to - or be seen by 'ground zero'. The people who use this center are the kind of people who have participated in thwarting attacks on this country. From a cynical point of view - discriminating against moderate Muslims is a hell of a way of radicalizing them.
Get off the self righteous soap box. I have no power of their resources to build. If it's divinely inspired than I say go for it. I'm just saying that given the history of the scene, whether AT location or a hundred blocks away, it leaves room for question as to motive. It's just an opinion that from my point of view from where I am it seems in poor taste to even suggest this move. I accept that I may be gravely wrong. It's just toooooooo bad that so many people on the forums can't accept that I am willing to accept that I may be wrong and have room to learn. I guess in their eyes that leaves me with no armor or defense and therefore gives them no pride in the attack.
Pius crap? Interesting, I only express human nature and not religious doctrine. Now where's the prideful crap?
If I'm wrong on the issue of the thread I accept that and await further developments to clarify and justify it to me. Until then if it's a genuine advance to peacefully exercise religious right to assembly this is good. If not - we are in trouble...
GP - have you read 'The Autobiography of Malcom X'? It's from the 60's and the ending is quite germane to the topic. Malcom X was exposed to a rabit, racist and twisted version of Islam taught in the prisons as a 'black' religion to tight white oppression. Malcom X made the pilgramage to Mecca which moved him from the narrow confines of hate he was taught to exposure in mainstream Islam - which isn't a 'black' religion and doesn't preach hate. When he returned to the US he broke with the 'Nation of Islam' knowing full well that teaching moderate Islam which is what mainstream Islam is - worldwide - would be a death sentence. And it was. Malcom X was murdered not by whites but by black men from the 'Nation of Islam' .
Cassius Clay - or Mohamad Ali - was a convert to Islam and registered as a consciencous objector - as a Muslim. He went to jail for not being willing to go to 'Nam when the military would not recognize his pacifist status.
There's a long list of American (and foreign) Muslims who have alerted the police and gov't agencies to extremist cells in the US and abroad to prevent violence which offends their religious beliefs. As a matter of history, I know that anti-semitism in Germany was cultivated to lay the path for a rise of fascism. I really don't want to see that in the US with Muslims.
Poor Malcolm didn't even know there were "WHITE MUSLIMS" until he went to Mecca. And, his experience in Mecca showed him the love and Goodness of the Muslim People. He couldn't come back up in here telling the percentass that. Of course they had to kill him! You see that today, people will kill you to continue to believe a lie.
Thanks for the references material. I'll seek it out and read it. Thanks again.
For the record I do not have hate for Islam or it's membership. All faiths have extremists and it's those extremists that have skewed vision of what that faith is all about and gives it a bad name.
Ali? Pacifist? HA. A ploy to keep him out of the service, because he was worth a lot of MONEY, but NOT in uniform. We called it "Dodging The Draft"
Today the Mosque got official permission to start building. And, like clock work, the dregs crawled from under their rocks to attack the innocent Muslims here in my City. That's Right! Those safe, bigoted, opportunistic cowards are back here in New York terrorizing the innocent, peaceful Muslim Community here in my City.
OSAMA BIN LADEN is alive and well in Pakistan! Why these coward haven't gone over there and put adds on the busses? How come they haven't organized protests in the squares of Pakistan?
Why are these self glorifying cowards here in My City drawing attention away from the real criminals of 9/11?
It's a great day for religious tolerance. The wingnuts will be crying in their beer tonight.
They are getting a bit confused though. Who do they hate more - Mexicans or Muslims.
So much hatred to spew, so little time.
Elpaso - I haven't seen our favorite religous bigot since he made the crack about Henry and his friends Smith and Wesson. Don't tell me HP is taking a dim view of threats of violence. Oh, what liberal bias.
It's premature but you might deserve an award.
I like a good debate. I try to keep a civil tougue most of the time. I never want to hurt somebody. In TMs' case, he just ran out of valid responses and resorted to intimidation. If you look carefully, you will see that is the main ploy of the far right. They have no real arguments to add to the conversation. It all about intimidation or tagging people with some kind of derogatory catch phrase.
I'm sure TM was troubling to alot of people. I wont miss him.
A fellow New Yorker wrote this in our NY1 news forum tonight.
It's unamerican to oppose the mosque. This country is founded on a belief in freedom of religion.
Lumping the entire billion person Islamic faith with 19 extremists is bigoted and ignorant. How far would be far enough for people to accept it? For most it would never be acceptable, which is unacceptable in itself. If we are going to have a secular lower Manhattan we should bulldoze Trinity Church. There is a Burger King Across the street from ground zero. 106 Liberty Street. Literally across the street with a seating area looking into ground zero. We are ok with a Burger King but not a mosque? We honor people with a Burger King? Banning a Mosque at ground zero is as ignorant as banning a Church or Army recruiting station anywhere near Oklahoma City because after all, Timothy McVeigh was a Christian and in the army so clearly, no Churches or Army ... In terms of our history, Ben Franklin with regard to a non-denominational religious building being constructed in Philadelphia.
"Both house and ground were vested in trustees, expressly for the use of any preacher of any religious persuasion who might desire to say something to the people at Philadelphia; the design in building not being to accommodate any particular sect, but the inhabitants in general; so that even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service." (Mohammedanism being an archaic term for Islam.)
If it is good enough for Franklin it should be good enough for us.
The following statement is pretty much what started all this. It's a quote so I don't have to worry about copyright issues putting it here.
"Proponents of the Islamic Center may have every right to build at this site, and may even have chosen the site to send a positive message about Islam. The bigotry some have expressed in attacking them is unfair, and wrong. But ultimately this is not a question of rights, but a question of what is right. In our judgment, building an Islamic Center in the shadow of the World Trade Center will cause some victims more pain - unnecessarily - and that is not right." - Abe Foxman, Anti-defamation League
"The attack was an act of war - and our first responders defended not only our city but also our country and our Constitution. We do not honor their lives by denying the very constitutional rights they died protecting. We honor their lives by defending those rights - and the freedoms the terrorists attacked." - Michael R. Bloomberg, Mayor of New York City
I can't say that I'm surprised, ashamed, or even that interested. On the one hand Mr. Foxman recognizes constitutionally protected rights while simultaneously stating why they should be ignored. This sort of "talking out of two sides of the mouth" has been going on for so long now that I'm no longer outraged. Just mildly amused.
But a lot of people will nod their heads in agreement even though the statement itself is clearly schizophrenic in nature. You see, by all rights, two opposing views voiced in a single statement tend to cancel each other out. In essence Mr. Foxman said nothing of consequence.
That Bloomberg countered, also citing the constitution, is also not a surprise, not shocking, and mildly amusing. But at least it's not schizophrenic.
We should protect rights equally in this country. If we can't do that then they should all be thrown out.
And we are getting there in one big hurry, like it or not.
Just found out a little bit more about the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) and the American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ) have taken the complete opposite view of the right of houses of worship to be built. Both groups have filed no less than five amicus briefs in federal court arguing that local zoning laws do not trump the right of religious groups to build houses of worship.
The ACLJ in particular has the following posted on it's website;
"[The ACLJ]...remains committed to the principle that the use of zoning laws to curtail the religious freedoms of churches is unconstitutional."
I guess in the eyes of the ADL and the ACLJ a mosque is not a house of worship.
Great idea! Let's build something the Al-qaeda won't be interested in blowing up!
I hope everyone understands now. I had to speak up in the hopes of preventing the coming bloodbath that started today in Afghanistan. A man is dead after a riot caused by the Wacko, Texas escapees' threat to burn the Koran.
I understand the 9/11 families are in mourning and cant be expected to think clearly about the repercussions of singling out the Muslims in downtown Manhattan, and making them guilty of the attack on the World Trade Center. But, if you read this thread and check out how long ago I addressed this train wreck that we're headed for, you'll see no one can claim they didn't know what this attack on the Muslims at Ground Zero would lead to.
Man this has been a really hot topic not only in here, but, everywhere.
I just don't get it. It is not on the site. They have owned the building a long time now. Furthermore, you all do realize that muslims lost their lives too in the world trade center? It wasn't just a building full of Christians, there where people from every stretch of the imagination and from every corner of the globe in those two buildings.
The fact that we, as Americans, could rise above such hate........, well wouldn't that be something worth talking about. However, a building reconstruction job, two blocks away from the actual site, is childish.
Men and women, AMERICANS of every race, color, and religion died in those buildings, and in the pentagon, and on flight 93. We as Americans, owe it to those people to overcome this hatred.
So far- we are failing them and their memories terribly. Shame on us, not the "muslims" who are wanting to do something good for their community's children.
Lovely to see this post in the midst of all the hatred. You are 100% spot on when you say that if Americans could rise above such hate, it would be something to be proud of. I think the rest of the world would feel proud too. It would be a *real* show of strength, much more profound than the bickering and protest that's been going on lately.
This topic is a hot item and I understand the passion behind it. On September 11th 2001, we lived in Philly, not far from ground zero. When the second tower at the world trade center was hit by the plane, we knew we were under attack!
I remember it well...suddenly, every cell phone in the city went dead and many people were in fear of the unknown. Tears were flowing everywhere as people around us cried for their friends and family who they knew....were stuck up in those towers!
I found myself hugging people I never knew just to give some comfort. When it was announced over the news that all planes had been grounded in the United States... I for one knew, we were at war!
The lives lost..the families torn apart will never be repaired or replaced.
I think ground zero is now a grave for many..many lives lost.
I don't think anything should be built there which may disrepect the fallen.
So I guess the ongoing question might be what part of ground zero is considered (no longer) ground zero?
I'm sure many will have an answer to that.
The mosque isn't being built there. It's being built NEAR there.
Hi Marisa, what part of ground zero is considered not ground zero? In my opinion, any place or building within one half a mile of the trade center towers were at ground zero. After all, they were bombed and the planes were used as the weapons. Just my thoughts, Marisa.
listen. people are REALLY blowing this thing out of proportion. Let me briefly explain what is happening.
9 years ago, some MOSTLY EUROPEAN/SAUDI people flew some planes into some buildings. There is still a large amount of dispute as to the details (what is it? more than half of Americans don't believe the official 9.11 account?)
Then the victim country invaded 2 countries THAT HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with those people who attacked it.
Then, the victim country forgot about it's founding principles and documents, and passed numerous horrendous pieces of legislation which are still on the books today.
--- let me pause right here to say that, no matter WHO it was that attacked the US, they have already won. The Patriot Act is their victory certificate ---
Now, some guy, who ALSO has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the attack wants to build a mosque nearby the area where three buildings collapsed (everyone always forgets about WTC 7 - didn't get hit by a plane, but still collapsed EXACTLY like the others).
And, in reaction to this Mosque, everyone in the US has COMPLETELY forgotten that there are laws and rules in place to deal with this type of situation -- laws and rules that we were completely happy with on 9/10/01. The Constitution's First Amendment and Tenth Amendment make it a State issue, and the New York State Constitution makes it illegal for the government to interfere.
--- once again, let me point out how the attackers have already won: the sheer fact that this debate exists despite the American Revolution's institution of a Constitution that DIRECTLY dealt with this issue about 230 years ago... it's mind boggling. ----
Also, let me point out one more thing that is really and truly amazing. We are now acting just like all those countries you hear about. "Indians and Pakistanis hate each other... even though they probably have never met one another"... "Israelis and Palestinians hate each other, even though I'm sure that if they just sat down with some coffee they'd be friends"... "Japanese and Koreans still have rampant distrust for one another"...
Now there will always be "Americans and Muslims don't like each other".
Let's grow up shall we? -- Because 19 people flew planes into some buildings doesn't mean that some guy should have his freedoms revoked.
What if the people who flew the planes into the buildings were Christians? "We don't approve of how godless the US has become!!! Miniskirts?!?!?! not on my watch!!!!" Kablamo!...... would you demand that Christians not be able to build churches in New York City?
... of course not. We all just hate "the other guy"
If they build the dam thing, the American people will be angry and it will lead to revenge. If they're not allowed to build it, the muslims will be angry and it will lead to revenge...why not just leave it in the planning office window for fifty years like they've done with whatever it is they're supposed to be building to replace the towers? How about a giant Bhudda?
I don't even understand this argument: "If they build the dam thing, the American people will be angry and it will lead to revenge. If they're not allowed to build it, the muslims will be angry and it will lead to revenge..."
didn't we fight a war and set up an entire governmental system to deal with these issues?
The Constitution of these United States and the Constitution of the State of New York both clearly state that neither of these entities is allowed to pass any law restricting the freedom of religious practice.
Thus the only REAL way that a governmental entity could ACTUALLY restrict the construction of this building would be if the CITY held a vote and through this due process decided to restrict the building of the mosque. (And even this might not be enough)
So, until this, or something like it, happens, we all need to shut the hell up and remember that we're Americans, and our Fore Fathers had to deal with these issues in spades.
The constitution doesn't say anything about a "community center".
I keep hearing this isn't a Mosque.
So freedom of religion isn't restrained by not allowing the "community center".
I wonder how far you would get if you submitted plans to build a catholic church bang in the middle of Jeddah or Riyadh? As a Brit reading this I feel anyone should be able to practice whatever religion they like but nobody has the right to demand rules etc are changed to accommodate the needs of minorities. That is the mistake we make in Britain...hence a the dome of a mosque visible over central London. Learn from our mistakes.
We live in a strange world. If I walked into a bank with a motor cycle crash helmet covering my face I would be asked to take it off. If I was a woman wearing a veil that would be acceptable.
I have just got around to reading this thread from the start and it is hard to imagine such bigotted and blind people. The guy who wants to build the mosque and day centre etc is a well respected peacemaker - they say in another thread here.
The vitriol from our vertically challenged mormon friend is most surprising, I would have thought that someone who can spout almost sensible religious stuff, and who normally exhibits reserve and politeness, would have a more tolerant view.
The attack on the twin towers was made with a long term plan in mind - and the morons who scream the loudest are helping to further that plan. Of course there should be a mosque near the site - of course there should be churches near the site, even the mormons should have a hall or whatever near the site !
Best plan would be for all of them to be housed in one building at exactly the centre.
aren't there like a million christian churches - including a giant statue of jesus - in South america? the same place that conquistadors went to and kicked the crap out of?
How is this AT ALL different from the same situation we're fixated on in NYC?
If some christian guys bombed the towers, A- the media wouldn't have fixated on it, they just woulda been wingnuts (wasn't the Oklahoma city bomber a christian? we have churches over there, don't we?) and B - no one would have any problem with building a christian church over there.
If we were muslim and christians bombed the WTC, then we'd be doing the exact same thing - "gwar!!! Churches are a monument to hate filled christians who think that people can resurrect from the dead!! gwar!!!"
The REAL problem is simply religious intolerance.
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What do you think?
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