Let's Make This Clear: Jewishness is a religion not a race

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   bgamallposted 14 years ago

   There is a lot of confusion on this subject, what with the banksters being overrepresented by those who have descended from those who practiced the religion of Judaism. But we need to be clear, Jewishness is not a race. Jews are caucasian, and there is no race named "Jew".
   
   My natural father was a Jewish descendant, and I am adopted and also count as Jewish descendent. But that does not mean I am not caucasian in race. Jews practice Judaism, and if you are a descendant, you could be an atheist, an agnostic, a Christian or whatever.
   
   I hope this clears things up. Judaism is not a race. Judaism is a religion.

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      Jeff Berndtposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      What brought this on? Has somebody been giving you a hard time because of your ancestry?

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         bgamallposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         No there was another thread on the success of Jews and there was a lot of misinformation there.

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            Jeff Berndtposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Oh, gotcha.

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      AnnCeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      You are not Jewish if your natural mother is not Jewish.  You may adopt the Jewish religion, but you will not be a member of the Jewish or Hebrew race.
      
      
      
      http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

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         livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         You are misreading this article. There's no such thing as a Jewish or Hebrew race.
         
         Why don't you reread more carefully what it says.

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            AnnCeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Why don't you tell me what you think this article says?
            
            Good heavens, there are unique genetic markers, there is a lineage, the Jews themselves call themselves a race.
            
            The genomes have been traced, the dispersal is documented.
            
            
            
            http://www.commentarymagazine.com/artic … wish-race/

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               livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               That there was an original Levantine population called Jews does not mean that there is a Jewish race. That original Levantine population had a mixture of races.
               
               That there is a Cohen genetic marker among *some* Jews does not mean that all Jews have this genetic marker, even among those who claim to trace their bloodlines to Aaron.
               
               As for the Commentary article, that author seems to be confusing tribe with race.

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   knolyourselfposted 14 years ago

   Apply for citizenship in Israel and tell them you are of the Jewish faith. How far will you get? When I was there I was told I could not be a citizen.

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      Aya Katzposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Israel has a problem with the State regulating religion.
      
      Even so, not all Israelis are Jews. And not all Jews are Caucasian. And even not all Israeli Jews are Caucasian.

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      bgamallposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      That is in Israel. We are talking about here in the United States. Israel does not define Judaism, and in fact was founded by bolsheviks. Look it up on Wikipedia. The state of Israel does what is expedient for a state that is secular.

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      livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      That's not true. You can even be a convert and apply for aliyah under the Law of Return. You just have to have lived "Jewishly" for at least a year and have that affirmed by a rabbi.
      
      If you mean "Messianic Jew" (i.e. Christian) then no, that does not grant you Israeli citizenship.

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         bgamallposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Israel is not a Jewish state according to the Old Testament. If one were to believe the OT was in force, and I don't, then Israel would have to be sacrificing animals and the whole OT thing, banishing people from the land, etc. Israel does not do that. So to make an OT rule a requirement for moving there is just stupid. Or as I said before convenient for them to set barriers.

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            livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.
            
            Judaism has been changing ever since it was created. According to Jewish law, there are no more animal sacrifices, banishment, etc.
            
            The problem is that Christians who use Christian terminology and apply Christian understanding to Judaism tend to misunderstand it. The Torah is not the entirety of Jewish law, not even close. (Judaism has continued to evolve after Jesus's life)
            
            That said, Israel (the modern state) is a secular country. There are many of its laws that have nothing to do with Jewish law. Even Eichmann's execution was a violation of Jewish law, which has banned the death penalty for almost 2,000 years.

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   Aya Katzposted 14 years ago

   Not all Jews are Caucasian.

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      bgamallposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      That is true Aya. My point though is it is wrong to take even all Jewish descendents, and make that ethnic mixture into a race.

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         Aya Katzposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I agree with you there.

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            bgamallposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks, I am encouraged.

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   lovemychrisposted 14 years ago

   And Zionist aren't necessarily Jewish, nor practice the religion.
   
   And Khazars aren't "Jewish" either. They converted for political reasons.
   
   The State of Israel is not a religious entity.They do not practice Judaism. Or they could never do what they are doing. Period, end of story.
   
   Any true religion would never allow usury, and that is what banking is based on.

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      Jeff Berndtposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      "Any true religion would never allow usury, and that is what banking is based on."
      Whaaaaat?

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      bgamallposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Interesting post. Yes, Zionists, like Leo Strauss, could be atheistic. Interesting point about the Khazars.
      
      True about the state of Israel. It is not Jewish and was founded by bolsheviks.
      
      True religion does not allow usury, however, the definition of usury is not as strict as some religions say. For example, Jesus expected that you earn interest, in the parable he gave. So some sort of credit was assumed. I would rather see that excessive usury be outlawed. Excessive usury like what we see now from the banksters is wrong, by any standard. Interested in your thoughts.

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   Jim Hunterposted 14 years ago

   Jewishness?

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      bgamallposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Are you starting a word association Jim?

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   Mighty Momposted 14 years ago

   Not a race, but certainly a distinct culture unto itself.
   I say this based on my marriage to a NY Jewish "atheist." His parents were ethnically Jewish to the max but patently anti-religious. Would don a yarmukah (sp) at family weddings, but otherwise, no temple or torah for this family.
   I will give examples of the behaviors and mannerisms that make them "cultural Jews" that if you like.
   The extended family includes emigrants from Poland, Russia and Egypt (got out in the 1960s)....

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   knolyourselfposted 14 years ago

   "Israel does not define Judaism,"
   I thought Israel was founded as a refuge for Jews, not atheist Bolsheviks.

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      bgamallposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Both are correct. The founders were Bolsheviks, and religion was not the issue. Protection of the ethnic group and culture was the issue.

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   livelongerposted 14 years ago

   There is no concept of race in Judaism.
   
   Jews can be of any race. Sammy Davis Jr, Yaphet Kotto, and Connie Chung are all Jews.
   
   There are many, many Israelis who are not Caucasian. The largest populations are of Ashkenazi (European) and Sephardic (Middle-Eastern) Jews, but that doesn't mean every Jew is Caucasian. Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews) form a large population in Israel.
   
   The fact that Jews define their Jewish matrilineally should not imply there is a race. First, if your father is a Jew but your mother is not, then you're not Jewish (traditionally speaking). The reverse (Jewish mother but Gentile father) does make you a Jew.
   
   Second, anyone can convert to Judaism and Judaism forbids treating converts any different from those born Jewish. Jewish folklore is full of converts who are revered in the religion.
   
   Think of Judaism as a large family: one you can join, but you can't really leave.

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      bgamallposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      That is well said except that you aren't a Jew if you have a Jewish mother and you are an atheist. That definition is only for entrance into the nation of Israel, and comes from Ezra.
      
      But the deal is, if you are an atheist you can have both parents Jewish and not be Jewish.
      
      People leave all the time. A minority of Bolsheviks were descendants of Jewish parents. They left.

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         livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         That's not true, at least not halakhically-speaking. If you are born a Jew or convert to Judaism, you will always be a Jew. It can't be reversed. (Although that might be moot if you don't self-identify as Jewish and don't care what the definition of a Jew is under halakha)
         
         You can be atheist and still Jewish. You may not practice the Jewish faith, but if/when you do, you don't have to convert if you were atheist.

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            bgamallposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            That is a minor technicality. You know what I mean. Besides, if you want to get technical, the elect Jews are made up of Jew and Gentile in Paul's New Man. For me that is the final say on the matter.

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   knolyourselfposted 14 years ago

   So what are atheist Bolsheviks doing in Palestinian land?

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      bgamallposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      According to religious Zionists, they acknowledge that atheistic Zionists formed Israel but that they would eventually embrace the religion. It is unlikely that that actually happened.

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      livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Where should they go instead? They weren't exactly enjoying a warm welcome where they were living before.

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         bgamallposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         No argument there.

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    knolyourselfposted 14 years ago

    So "atheistic Zionists" would not use the bible as property title?

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    knolyourselfposted 14 years ago

    "Where should they go instead?" Maybe where they expect the Palestinians to go.

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       livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       That would be all of the other 22 Arab countries where Palestinians wouldn't be singled and persecuted for their religion or perceived ethnicity. There is exactly one country where Jews are the majority and where being a Jew certainly won't subject you to murder or expulsion.
       
       You do realize that Jews were kicked out of Arab lands when Israel was formed, right?

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          Aya Katzposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Do you realize that Palestinians aren't Arabs ethnically and that all the Arabs know this and discriminate against them when they try to go elsewhere?

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             livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Palestinians are not Arabs?

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                Len Cannonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Palestinians have traditionally been treated very poorly in any country they seek refuge in.

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                   livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   A shame for the Arab world. If you mean the refugee camps, that's because the Arab world wants them to live in temporary housing until they're repatriated (when the Jews are pushed into the sea).

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                Aya Katzposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Yes. Come on. You read my hub about this. It is not news to you, even if you disagree.

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                   livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   I have not read your Hub on it, but I have yet to meet a Palestinian who does not simultaneously identify as an Arab. They say Palestinians are Arabs just like Libyan, Egyptians and Jordanians are.

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                      Aya Katzposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      Libyans, Egyptians and Jordanians do not consider Palestinians to be Arabs. Palestinians do not consider themselves to be Arabs. They are Judeans who never left, and they went by the name "fellahin" (farmers) till outsiders started calling them Arabs.
                      
                      You did comment on my hub "Israel: the Two Halves of the Nation" when it was first published here? Didn't you?
                      
                      I'm not trying to force you to agree with me. I'm just saying this is not the first time you've heard this.

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                         livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         I've taken a look at your Hub, and I completely agree that people confuse Arab, Muslim, Palestinian like they are all synonymous. At any rate, like I said, I have yet to meet a Palestinian who doesn't consider him/herself Arab as well. Maybe there are some "purists" who trace their lineage to Judea or something, but most seem to not have problems calling themselves Arabs.
                         
                         Maybe there's a reliable poll that says otherwise.

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                            Aya Katzposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                            Livelonger, thanks! Like most people, Palestinians are proud of who they are. You will not get any Palestinian today telling you he is a Judean, because they don't want to be associated with Jews, but they will tell you that their people have always lived in Palestine, which if you think about it, is the same thing!
                            
                            And as for those people who care about genetic markers, they've got the same ones.  But I am not all that impressed with the racial argument. I'm just saying, they're not Arabs by anybody's estimation except complete outsiders.

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    knolyourselfposted 14 years ago

    Ya da ya da there are a million reasons, the point being millions of people come from one land for whatever reason take up residence in another people's land, seems like that is going to cause some major problems.

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    Len Cannonposted 14 years ago

    A person can be ethnically Jewish but not religiously Jewish and vice-versa. Being Semitic very much is a valid ethnic/racial description.

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    Len Cannonposted 14 years ago

    I'm hardly a modern historian, but it seems the real issue is that Palestinians are used as living chess pieces by any number of governments who want to use them for their own ends.

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       livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Yes, and it's sad.
       
       Hopefully they will have their own homeland soon.

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          Jeff Berndtposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Indeed.

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    Cagsilposted 14 years ago

    Just because any individual participates or practices a religion, it doesn't not make them a race.

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       Hauntyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       The easiest way to think of a race is to think in biological terms. Unfortunately, that is also the most racist way of thinking of it.

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    Aya Katzposted 14 years ago

    Livelonger, maybe I am mistaken. If you did not read the hub, I invite you to do so. ;->

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    AnnCeeposted 14 years ago

    I see, the entire idea of "race" is now politically incorrect. 
    
    
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 … 123707.htm

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    knolyourselfposted 14 years ago

    AnnCee glad you made this genetic thing clear. Israel is the only state in the world that has a specific identity as necessary to become a citizen, and allowed to get away with it.

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       AnnCeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Ha!  It'll never stand against political correctness.  Political correctness is like an algebra of lies.   Call something something else and you can go through rabbit holes into never never land. 

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       livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       That's not true at all.
       
       As I said before (which you ignored), you can convert to Judaism and immigrate into Israel under the Law of Return. I've known people who have done this.
       
       By the same token, a born-Jew can convert to Christianity and not be allowed to immigrate into Israel under the Law of Return. This is what happened to a relative of Barbra Streisand, in fact.

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    Mishaposted 14 years ago

    Well, it's certainly both, depending on the beholder

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    knolyourselfposted 14 years ago

    Never much cared for Political correctness. When I was a kid there was always and emphasis on proper grammar. I have always been a lover of slang. So I like to mix and match where appropriateness may be dictated by circumstance. More creative.

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       AnnCeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I agree with that!  I also purposely misspell words to tweak the meaning sometimes.   Playing with language is fun.

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    Jefsaidposted 14 years ago

    Wow! I am not of Jewish faith but probably started this whole debate in an earlier forum.
    
    However, I am still confused by the issue of race.  Judaism is a religion surely? Those that follow its faith are then Jews are they not, irrespective of race.  There appears to be a particular lineage of people(I am not clear on what that is historically) that have assumed ownership of the religion and the title 'Jews' despite its roots transcend race as it also originally existed in Egypt/Ethiopia and they were of African descent.  It is curious to me as an outside observer that despite the sad conflict, this lineage of people who have inherited the racial description of 'Jews' appear similar in appearance to the Palestinians.

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       AnnCeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Read more.

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          Jefsaidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          AnnCee.  I think I have understood the Palestinian connection from Aya Katz

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          Jefsaidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Ahh! Livelonger explains the rest.

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          Jefsaidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I did not realise that the issue of being Jewish was so complicated and diverse.  It is like a World in itself.

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             livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             There's a joke I heard recently:
             
             There was a flight going from New York to Miami that had a lot of Jewish passengers that was hijacked mid-flight by Islamic terrorists.
             
             One of the terrorists run up to the front of the cabin, brandished a gun, and screamed, "Who among you in Jewish?!"
             
             From the back, a man raises his hand and says, "That's an interesting question..."

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                Jefsaidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                

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                Jefsaidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                There is a similar joke about people from my ethnic background where a person asks a Jamaican "Is it true that you always answer a question with a question" and the Jamaican replies "Why, who wants to know?"

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                   livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   !

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                      Jefsaidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      Peace and love to the World!

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                AnnCeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Funny.

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                BunuBobuposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                LOL.
                Brilliant!

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    Evan G Rogersposted 14 years ago

    Newsflash: we're all humans. Get over yourself.

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       Jefsaidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       ????

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       livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       If the topic doesn't interest you, why are you wading into it?
       
       Or are you trying to define what people are allowed to discuss?

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          BunuBobuposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I think he is just as confused as I was when I saw this title.
          The Jewish people I know (about 5) do refer to themselves as a "Race".
          It is kind of a difficult subject since you don't really want to offend people.

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    ReuVeraposted 14 years ago

    I agree with livelonger with everything he says. He knows what he is talking about. I can agree with Aya to some extend, but not absolutely. The nation is identified by history, culture and language. There is no such a thing as Palestinian culture, or Palestinian language. Also, there was no such a notion as Palestinians before 1948. It is the same as to call New Yorkers or Chicagoans "a nation". But is is absolutely separate topic.
    About Israeli citizenship. From my experience I know that Israel law allows immigration to Israel and grants citizenship up to fourth generation of Jewish descendants. Of course, if the trace goes by female line, it is easy- you are Jewish without problem. But even if you have a proof that your paternal great-grandfather was a Jew, you have a right to immigrate to Israel. Only in this case you are not considered a Jew. In Israeli ID (teudat zehut) you will NOT have written "Yehudi" ("Jewish"). This is the difference.
    Also, spouses of Jews are also granted citizenship. There are special cases when Israeli citizenship is granted to "Righteous among the Nations"- gentile people who were saving Jews. Many Europeans who were saving Jews during WW2 have Israeli citizenship. Another example is a brave nanny from Mumbai, who saved a Jewish child during a terroristic attack. Also, Israel grants citizenship to refugees (example- Darfur refugees). The difference is that in those cases, though Israeli citizens, these people are not Jews.
    
    I would say, that Jews are not a religion (Judaism is a religion), not a nationality, but a Family. Big family of different races (Jews may be Caucasian, as well as black, yellow, red). It is a big Family.

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    AnnCeeposted 14 years ago

    Can political correctness deny that?

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