I was reading an interesting Forum thread when I noticed one contributor has been a member for 11 months, has written no hubs, but has contributed to discussion 383 times - and amassed 9 followers. Another has been a member 21 months, has written no hubs, has 294 posts and has a dozen followers.
I thought these forums were for hubbers. What are these contributors doing here?
Are we bees or butterflies? I suggest that one should have to contribute to the communal effort by writing some hubs (10 at least) before taking part in the forums.
Free speech is for contributing citizens, not for freeloading parasites.
I think you'll find that most of those forum hubbers with no hubs are actually regular hubbers using another account to disguise who they really are. I also think that some of the political forum posters are actually paid posters rather than hubbers.
Two more reasons to do what Charles suggests. Why do regular hubbers hide behind a second account to voice their opinion? Also, aren't paid posters sort of unwelcome?
A few days ago, someone with 300 hubs asked in the forums where the | key was on the keyboard. Somebody with 50 hubs answered. Hubpages marked both of their accounts as article spinners. Any time they want to edit an existing hub now, it has to be unpublished while it undergoes review by Hubpages management.
If your comments in forums can cause punitive action, then it might not be a bad idea to protect your main accounts.
The main reason though is you don’t want everybody to see your niches.
I'm pretty sad that Katie got that penalty. I'm not her regular reader, so I can't judge if it was deserved or not, though. As for Terry, well, he deserves every bit of the distrust. Sorry, if you are friends or something, but I've read his hubs and this is my opinion.
I think the basic principle behind the original post is to let those who have some stake in the good-going of the site have more power to impact it than those who are here to just wreak havoc. If you are an established hubber and you want to stay incognito in forum, you can write, say, 5 hubs for the right to do so. Can you make that compromise to keep the site cleaner? I'm saying this, because I do believe that if HP wasn't so "polluted" it could make a comeback. And that there is no such thing as a content farm penalty.
The problem with a rule requiring publishing 5 hubs first is that newbies here are often the ones that need the most support.
Edit - I also think there are only handful of people posting that don't have 5 hubs per account - so I don't know how much cleanup would be accomplished. People can just ignore me and Oly and report the spammers...
That could quite easily be covered by giving those with no of few hubs restricted posting rights, either by number or by topic.
That newbie thing is a good point. But they could have unlimited posts in the help forums. Then gradually build up hubs to reach the main forum. And only once they have proved themselves to be bone fide bigoted idiots, say after 250 hubs, can they enter the ultimate level forums of religion or politics.
I thought this topic was over with between you and I, but I guess not. In reading this thread, I see you've decided to keep on with your denouncement of my views.
I will repeat that I've been an American citizen for over 50 years. And that I have never given anyone any reason to think I'm unpatriotic nor a criminal, and especially not a terrorist as you have so slyly suggested. I say slyly because, for one thing, you posted those accusations under a secondary screen name. Heck, you don't even say what your FIRST screen name is, much less your real name! So people have no way of knowing if you're even an American citizen.
The top man in the White House is "experimenting" with America. He himself has used that term, plainly said so, in front of American cameras. And he has overriden American law to implement his own agenda. If YOU are an American citizen, YOU should be as outraged as I am about that. THAT is much closer to "domestic terrorism" than anything I've advocated. My America isn't an experiment. Do you think it is? If so, then it's YOU who's totally in the wrong.
You are using my rights to free speech to try and further your beef with HubPages staff about an issue I did not participate in and have no knowledge of the terms or whether that issue violates HP rules.
As I told you before, you should take that up with the Staff on its own merit instead of trying to get me banned or whatever it is you're trying to do.
IF you're not an American citizen, it's none of your business what my political views are.
And if you ARE an American citizen, you should have at least as much guts as I do and face me like a man or woman instead of from behind your curtain of who-knows-how-many screen personalities.
Let me tell you this----since a man (Mr. Obama)can (and did) go around spouting in public his intention to overthrow my entire Nation's basis, I most certainly can and will advocate for his resignation or for him to be removed from Office. It matters not to me how many people voted for him. Even IF he was legitimately elected by those liberals, that does NOT take away my rights to free speech and opinion as an American citizen. And SINCE a convicted terrorist like Bill Ayers is allowed to be a teacher in ANY capacity in America, I most definitely will NOT give up my rights to state my opinion privately and publicly.
Lest you forget, and in case you don't know, I AM supposed to be part of the government of the United States, just as all legitimate (and patriotic) citizens are.
Your decision to try to brand me as something else is just wrong. So as long as you continue your unfounded accusations, I will respond by defending my rights. And part of my response will be to call you out on your secrecy and tell you to face me like an honest person instead of your hogwash. Either that, or refrain from using your HubPages status as a multiple-poster to accuse an American citizen.
Like I suggested, I'd appreciate it if you stopped trying to use me as a scapegoat.
And whatever your agenda results in, it will not persuade me to silence my own voice. You can make it hard for me, yes. But why you would want to do so is something you should ask yourself, as well as be honest about on these forums since you've brought it up several times.
You said it yourself---you "personally couldn't care less" if I get banned or whatever, and I assume you're referring to me as one of those "nutjobs". Is that correct? Well, personally I may not think very highly of you either, but I have no way of even knowing who you are, so I don't make that judgement call on that basis, and I don't go around insinuating things about you nor harrassing you. I can, however, say that I don't think very highly of your responses, and I think quite lowly of your actions you've portrayed by attacking me.
And your response here doesn't divert my attention from the fact that you're simply trying to divert!
Wrong. They are indeed disputed. It isn't factually correct to say definitely that Obama was even "rightfully elected", given the exposed fraud of ACORN and the issue of his eligibility AND the obvious (and proven) fact of how conservatives have consistently been bullied with accusations of racism simply because they oppose his policies and morals, as well as the audacity of members of the Black Panthers to stand outside a polling place with weapons intimidating voters.
And I don't know anything about the poster named Oly except that I've read some of his threads and agree with many of the things he says.
We could keep arguing about this all day, and you could keep diverting attention from yourself, but it doesn't work on me. Maybe on some others, but not on me.
I don’t know what you mean by diverting people away from questioning my true identity. The original argument was whether or not a person should have a certain number of hubs before they are allowed to post in the forums.
You are the only person concerned with what my real name is…and the fact that you are concerned about what my real name is makes me glad that I haven’t posted it…
What American "basis" did he overthrow Church Lady? You make bold but very general claims and then tend to support them with nothing more than "feelings" of unease instead of facts. It's like walking into someone's house and saying, "I don't like the way this looks" then being asked by the homeowner exactly what it is you don't like and you not being able to say with any specificity what you don't like. I think you don't like the fact a black man got elected as President. I think if you were truly honest with yourself and your God, you would admit it. Confession does a soul good, wouldn't you agree? Now the "Birther" claim has been discredited, what ridiculousness are you going to stand behind? Let me guess, the Muslim issue. And when that is discredited, what then? I notice your friend AnnCee has been strangely silent since today's revelation on the Birth Certificate question. And if I recall, she was swearing by Almighty God just last week that she had the president dead-to-rights. I wouldn't expect any of you people to actually admit you were wrong, but in a small way there is some level of satisfaction we rational people enjoy in knowing that the "Tea Party" aka Fascist American Party is going down the toilet and the Birther Movement along with it. Doesn't it feel even remotely disturbing to you that what you have largely based your political beliefs on is nothing more than what was claimed from the start by liberals - a lie...
I can see why people would want to hide their main accounts, especially if they are prolific posters. What White Teeth said about those two posters is absolutely true and quite ridiculous if you ask me. Both are respected members discussing an automated backlinking service that does require the spinning of about 50 words to avoid putting the exact same post to about 100 sites.
As for paid posters, well they'd be talking to themselves if no-one responded, wouldn't they?
Another has been a member 21 months, has written no hubs, has 294 posts and has a dozen followers.
I resemble that remark…My hubs are on my other accounts. I had a hub on this account until recently, but I deleted it because it did not fit with the new Hubpages.
Relax. Have a beer.
The fact that one has nothing to say, doesn't mean that he must shut up.
Maybe those you mention are just crossing an incubation period.
"Free speech is for contributing citizens, not for freeloading parasites."
People who only talk in the forums don't earn any money or take money away from writers, do they? I don't see why it would really matter, they just give ideas to those who DO write - and aren't so lazy that they always decide to get to it later...
Yeah... apparently Charles doesn't think that some people should be allowed to have freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech is fine and dandy. But there's no law that says HP is mandated to follow this principle.
It's HP's right to make rules about who contributes to forums, as HP has made rules about a lot of other things, especially lately.
I'd like to see a new rule that says you can't participate in forums unless you've written Hubs. It's got everything to do with responsibility. You want to be a member here, and partake of member privileges, then write first. If you don't, you're just a poser of some sort and have no credibility. (Don't care if you are a sock puppet on another account.)
They can have freedom of speech, but why do they want to discuss in a forum for actual writers when they don't write?
"From each according to his ability" - so if your stroke makes it difficult or impossible to write hubs you have still contributed according to your ability - you are not a parasite. In fact you have contributed more than the parasites despite your disability. Good on you - shame on them!
Haunty - John and I are about an hour apart. I was hoping to meet John at a regional Hubmeet, but there isn't one this year. If this lovefest goes on I may have to go to Manchester to meet him. Does anyone else want to meet up in Manchester?
Ahhhh, a socialist. It figures. Always trying to squelch freedom of speech.
Thank goodness socialist don't control HubPages.
FYI, there are lots of hubbers that have multiple accounts for various reasons. However, that number may have dropped since the Google Panda change. Some have packed up and left.
The reason I have a second account is to protect my earning hubs from being copied and my account from being at risk. Liberal, juvenile people who don't like or appreciate my political views are vindictive. They have ways of trying to get back at people. I learned the hard way to protect my online income. So, I use my second account for commenting in the forums.
I hope HubPages doesn't stoop to forcing people to have a certain number of hubs before being allowed to comment. If they do I can throw up a few passing hubs or I'll just say forget about it. If HubPages continue to alienate it's members it will not recover.
Hey! Don't blame HubPages, that was just someone's idea!
I want to ask how that would protect your account but I don't write enough to need that information yet and I don't want to ask you to give away anything that keeps your work safe.
I'm sorry about that. I don't blame HubPages for that. I was just saying I hope they don't adopt that idea.
How does an anonymous account protect a main account? Well, I comment using my anonymous account and use my separate, main account to publish my hubs. If I use my main account to post unpopular views on controversial topics, then some people who are not mature enough to "agree not to agree" try to get back at you by various means.
I have had people troll & follow me around and rate down all of my hubs and try to make life on HubPages a living hades(hell). Also, I have had hubs copied. Then, I have some hubs on topics rarely written about. I don't want people to see them and write on those topics too. It's about having less competition.
This hasn't happened to me, but I've read where other people have had people make fraudulent clicks on their websites to get their AdSense account closed. That's awful but true, some people are just that mean.
good point. Think the parasites just want to push their political/religious agenda
I was one of the "parasites" described by the OP. I don't push my political/religious agenda, but I occasionally mock others' agenda.
So would it be OK for a member to publish 5 hubs their first month here and then spend the rest of their time trolling the forums spewing propaganda?
For some people Hubpages is a significant source of income.
For others, it is a place to post our writings, and any income is a bonus.
Some people seem to enjoy being trolls, stomping round the site upsetting people, spewing propaganda, and often concealing their identities. And they want to be taken seriously!
That’s a different can of worms – wanting everybody to use his or her real name and identity.
Even if every member had a name as their HP ID how would you know that it was authentic?
I could post a picture of my grandfather and say my name is Seymour Butts, that would not make a difference.
Well Seymour, I take your point. It is more honest to hide behind an obvious pseudonym and silly picture than to assume a completely false identity.
"Freedom of speech" as originally proposed was the ability to stand up and say what you believe, without reprisals. It was never intended that you put on a false beard, dark glasses and a motorcycle helmet first!
I get some criticism for being a socialist, and there are folks out there who try to catch me out in hypocrisy or contradiction, but really that just goes with the territory. I am not dependent on my Hubpages earnings (just as well as I have not had any cash yet!). If people want to rate down my hubs because of my politics it just shows what pathetic idiots they are.
Charles I do not agree with socialism, but I would fight for your right to speak of it.
The content of hubs may lead an individual however to disguise their actual name to lower the chance of actual retaliation.
Having had dealings with some sad souls I recognise that some people have a need to attack and vilify.
If your Hubpages earnings are significant I understand why you post in another identity. What a sad comment on humanity!
And thank you for standing up for my right to put forward unpopular views.
About 2 years ago there was an incident where somebody starting clicking all of RyanKett’s Adsense ads, apparently trying to screw him over. It seems that it all worked out for him in the end, but Adsense does not have the reputation for being the most understanding and communicative of partners. The cost/benefit analysis does not lend itself too well to exposing your Adsense ID if you don’t have to… especially when one tends to drunk-post much of the time...
Well, didn´t know i would have to create a hub to participate in this community.
Joined hubpages some months ago after googling some specific political content and ending up in a hub. Found it easy to comment, even without being a member. Hubpages raised my interest and decided to sign in.
While surfing through hubs, forums and answers i found it fascinating to find out not only what members write but also who they are, at least of what they are willing to share.
This is something different from all the anonymous forums in internet. So i decided it was only fair that i represent myself in a profile and added a photo of our last family vacation in Chechoslovakia.
So here i stand, no hubs, some comments, no vizor. Being a frequent traveller, i write comments on airports after completion of my business mail. I really don´t want to create hubs.
But - what does all this have to do with freedom of speech?
So you're telling me to go and write hubs!! Ok i will try....
I do hope that having written lots of hubs I am not forced to contribute to the Political forums.
hmm well that is the thing they have chat rooms, blogs, and other things for discussions, I only assumed maybe they forums and questiosn for other writers to get to know one another and interact to be better writers. I guess that is what facebook, and other social networks are for socializing and discussions. So forums on here I guess if your a writer would sound better than coming on hubpages just socialize and harass people! lol
You are, Mark. And, of course, the more vitriolic the post, the better!
sorry just woke up typo, wish you could fix typos in fourms but I guess not! lol
"I suggest that one should have to contribute to the communal effort by writing some hubs (10 at least) before taking part in the forums."
I highly agree. There are plenty of other places for non writers to participate in forums.
I'd bet that this forum would then be visited by more actual hubbers.
Write a Hub...and stay awhile! Threads are as fickle as the wind.
Tell every one what really is on your mind via a Hub! (This is a non-paid for advertisement)
Another thing about accounts showing 0 Hubs is what White Teeth mentioned about his one hub on this specific account - sometimes 0 means that a Hubber had hubs published on the account in the past, but deleted them either on their own initiative or because something about them was/ may have been against TOS. Or they were just being checked to be absolutely sure they were okay before republishing.
I agree that one should have to publish Hubs in order to comment in the forums, but I also believe that there can be legitimate reasons for having separate, even numerous, accounts. All Hubbers are prohibited from using different Hub accounts to post within one forum thread, and discouraged from using more than one account across all forums - but I have seen situations where it may be reasonable to post on a specific topic from an account that relates to that topic, rather from the primary account (still using only one account within that thread).
But, on the topic of copying an entire article - it's not just Olyhooch who does that. I have seen Ralph Deeds (among others) do that too, and in addition to being questionable due to copyright issues, it is also extremely annoying to some of us (including me) and more difficult to understand than a link and a synopsis would be.
On the one hand, I'd say that free speech is for everybody when/if free speech is guaranteed to any particular group of people. On the other hand, I'd say that who has "free speech" to whatever extent on HubPages is the business of HP owners and staff.
Free speech isn't particularly guaranteed to members of a site that's run by something like a private business; and that, of course, goes to the thing that some people think some other people, or else "free speech", shouldn't be allowed on the forums.
Having said all that, I don't see who is a "bee" and who is a "butterfly" as my business, as long as whatever they do doesn't affect me, personally. I do my own thing and aim to stay within TOS. If I do something I'm not supposed to do I assume HP will let me know. If someone else violates TOS HP can let them know too. Other than that, I don't worry about who else does what. People usually have their reasons. A good part of the time those are legitimate enough reasons.
For the most part, I very much live my life (as a person and as a Hubber) by the advice/warnings of my parents when I was in grammar school: "Just go to school, do your best, and never mind what other people are doing." (I don't know... the laughing emoticon comes from my own knowing of how many times, and in what tone, my parents would say that; but also from the fact that it's how I've generally approached things ever since. )
I'd like to see a mechanism in place to prevent someone signing up for hubpages with an empty profile then spamming 20 different threads in 10 minutes.
for example, the 'hubber' that spams the religious forums with the same repetitive threads and only has two very short, low quality hubs
The thing is people like paar and oly seem pretty dedicated to what they are doing. Forcing them to produce 5 or 10 crappy hubs is not going to be much of road block, but then Hubpages will have 10 or 20 more crappy religious or political hubs. So not much of a cleanup.
I have deep sympathy for people who are persecuted because of their political or religious beliefs. I was a political asylum lawyer for over 20 years, and I know how bad it can get.
I also deplore bad behavior as described by some contributors.
When you show 0 hubs, you know you are a producer under another name, but how do I know whether you are a bee worthy of respect or a butterfly who is not?
I don’t know if Hubpages is the same way, but many of the writer mills/content farms want to at least give the pretense that the readers are part of the community. They encourage readers to get accounts and participate in the community. I am not sure if Hubpages is going for this at all, but if they were, you would of course have to judge people whether they were worthy of your respect by their contribution to forums…pretty much like most other forums work…
I just don’t know if it is really that big of a deal one way or another. I think it would be better use of Hubpages’ time and energy to stop the robots from spamming hubs instead of forcing paar and oly to publish some crappy political and religious hubs.
I tend to disregard forum contributions once I discover there are no Hubs with the person's name. The way I figure it, if someone opened another account for niche purposes, his niche Hubs would be on that profile. If he's come to the forums under "disguise" because he's someone who wants/needs to use HubPages forums to vent his religious/political views (and therefore MUST have a secret identity), I see that person on not being interested in the real purpose of a writing site (and its forums) anyway. People are now free to write Hubs about religion or politics. They can have their second identity to do that. I mean... either write your religious/political Hubs and come to forums from your religious/political "identity", or else don't come to the forums to discuss religion or politics (if it's going to be a problem for you). Then, too, there are the paid posters not worth paying attention to either. (I also don't pay attention to people who have one or two half-baked Hubs and nothing else on their profile).
In general, a whole lot of "butterflies" don't post about things like HP rules and SEO, so a lot of the "0-Hub" people aren't anyone to even worry about on here. It's fairly easy to spot a "bee" most of the time because well established Hubbers are easy to spot. Most of them are very careful about what they present as "Hub facts" and help. Well-established Hubber or not, it's usually fairly easy to recognize who seems to know what he's talking about, who is presenting information that seems sound (at least considering who the presents himself as). Since you're a lawyer, I'd assume you have a pretty good ability to get a reading on which wording, tone, etc. seems to be sincere and rooted in something real, as opposed to which stuff comes across as someone's having some ulterior motive (or else some "weird issue you just can't put your finger on").
The only other kind of information post to have to worry about might be the simple-question-about-HubPages/simple-answer type of thing; and if someone with little experience gives bad information "everyone else" usually jumps in and corrects it anyway.
(So, see? Nobody has to worry about credibility in the forums. )
So... It is true.... that some clearly have no ability to appreciate the beauty or contribution of the butterfly to the world
As a socialist I believe everyone should contribute according to their ability. "From each according to his ability" comes before "to each according to his need", because otherwise there is nothing to distribute / redistribute.
Rights and responsibilities are two sides of the same coin.
I see people who appear not to be contributing hubs at all, or barely, making hundreds or thousands of Forum posts. My simple suggestion was to have a bar to weed out the parasites.
Hm, well I'm barely contributing hub wise, only 11 in about 7 months and several thousand posts.
There is, however, a reason for that. About eight weeks after I came to hub pages I had a stroke. Since then I find it very hard work constructing a hub, but easy and getting easier to do short posts.
Does that make me a parasite?
Actually, it probably does but would you begrudge me the therapy?
The length of my posts shouldn't be interpreted as anything more than my seeing this is a subject worthy of discussion, and I see "furthering" any serious discussion/debate as yet another way of contributing to the site. No anger, hostility, emotional reaction, or any of that stuff played a role - just seeing a discussion that seemed worth pursuing.
As someone who doesn't presume any rights beyond those granted to me as a writer here, and by HubPages, I don't think it's my place to make assumptions about who is a "parasite" and who isn't. That the job and worry of the people who own/run HP. Respectfully, that's the thing: HP "government" is not up for grabs to anyone who wishes to turn it into his own favorite kind of government.
Unless there's something I'm not realizing, I don't think forum posters with few or no Hubs are cutting into anyone else's earnings any more than anyone/anything else on the forums.
I thought the forums was open to the public so anyone can post to them. You have to be a hubber first?
The Americans have a concept of freedom of speeech arising in part from the First Amendment to the Constitution.
In most clubs you must "pay your dues" before taking part in activity. It annoyed me that people with no hubs were taking part in what I think of as a writers forum. There is no rule at present that you have to write hubs before taking part. I was suggesting there should be such a rule.
Charles, have you written the powers that be at Hubpages with the suggestion?
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