Everyone knows Amy Winehouse died!!! Who is Justin Allen 23, Brett Linley 29, Matthew Weikert 29, Justus Bartett 27, Dave Santos 21, Jesse Reed 26, Matthew Johnson 21, Zachary Fisher 24, Brandon King 23, Christopher Goeke 23, and Sheldon Tate, 27? They are Marines that gave their lives this week for you. There is no media for them... not even a mention of their names.
No, NOT so what. Why is her death any less relevant or important than anyone else's?
Using Amy Winehouse as a scapegoat to make such a point is useless. The media and public at large, are to blame, not Amy.
However, your point that these heros you named (though the list is entirely incomplete) IS relevant and important.
Your point deserves significant merit. However, the presentation is entirely distasteful.
Thank you for acknowledging the tasteless presentation. It was a tribute to Amy Whiner-house. A marginally talented woman awarded vast amounts of money and attention snuffs herself, nothing new.
You sound incredibly bitter uncorrectedvision! If she was only marginally talented then we must be complete losers.
Have you actually listened to her? She had quite a lot of talent, in my opinion.
"No, NOT so what. Why is her death any less relevant or important than anyone else's?"
Because she threw her life away for one more high.
They gave their lives so others could have the chance to live life without the fear of being murdered because of the tribe they belonged to.
Yes, I had to Google Amy Winehouse, I had no clue who she was.
Media is in it for money not glory ,nothing new there.
May all those people mentioned here rest in peace.
Crass post. We are not all American. And by the way, they did not give their lives. They were killed, while engaged in unnecessary overseas military adventurism. Did you ever read Wilfred Owen?
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.
I insulted nobody. The kids got killed doing an unnecessary job overseas. That is highly regrettable and tragic for their families and friends. They would have been better staying at home.
It would be better if there was no need for War in the first place...but that's not reality. It is easy to blame America for everything. Blame, Blame, blame...but look at all the regions that we are engaged with at the moment...and tell me that these areas have not been engaged in bloody wars within their own borders...and amongst their neighbors...for centuries. It was inevitable that they would draw other countries into their battles. It was inevitable that they would not and will not ever stop fighting either. And, will not be happy until there is one big huge blood bath left to clean up when it is all over!
Exactly how was America 'drawn in' to Iraq? To Afghanistan?
Hey...You're smart...and I'm dumb. Let's not get into all that. I said what I said...You said what you said. Let's not have this boring repetive debate to make yourself feel better and smarter. I concede to your great wisdom and knowledge on the subject...as I am sure the last three Presidents of the US have consulted with you on the matter...before the decisions were made.
Let's just keep it simple...and I'll say that I have known a few folks that went over there...and I support them...over your thoughts on the matter.
I didn't insult your intelligence. Why so thin skinned?
thin-skinned on this topic...you can believe PG. And have just as much right to state my views with out getting into the same ol' classic yarn of "Exactly how was America 'drawn in' to Iraq? To Afghanistan?"
Because....and you're going to have to trust me on this...I do very much, with an extreme emphasis...take the some of things said about our Military on here...personal.
You as a 3 year Hubber on the Forums should know that for every side on here there is an equal and an opposite reaction. Some just choose to shut-up about it. me, i'm not so good at that...at times.
And no...I haven't been drinking...yet...but after listening to some of this "hair-brained" nonsense whining...I'm willing to get started!
And if you would choose to debate your finer points of the "Great" and Evil Country Overpowering the World...known as America...who incidentally has a huge amount of casualities to show for all past engagements (which translates into my book...as one "hell" of a price has been paid)...and much rather discuss with you over a pint of ale... anyways. The internet is so trite for pinning this discussion down to its finer points.
By the way...I'm out'ta here for today...I got'ta run...The Joint Chiefs of Staff are having a "think tan" session...and decided they need someone off the internet to listen to, so that they can gain great insightful intel on all World Affairs! Later..."Peace Out"!
I understand where you are coming from Para.
I see any death as sad,especially for the loved ones left.
In respect to the Military,they are also honored, with full military honours (if wished) so I dont see why all the fuss.
And for all the Amys out there and those who care listen to this
"Exactly how was America 'drawn in' to Iraq?"
Most of our leaders (and many of our people) were fooled, plainly and simply fooled, into thinking that Iraq was both intending to and capable of attacking the US. It was neither.
"Afghanistan?" Well, this is where we're going to disagree--when something as momentous as the 9/11 attacks happen, the nation it happens to has a right to demand justice. The regime in charge of Afghanistan at the time, instead of turning the accused party over to the US or some international organization*, chose instead to harbor him. The only recourse the US had was to attack, and this is the only response to 9/11 that the US did that I supported.
*I can understand the Taliban's reluctance to turn Bin Laden over to the US--the idea that he'd get a fair trial in the US would be hard to swallow for non-Americans (and even most Americans if they thought about it for more than a few seconds). But they could have offered to turn him over to the World Court at the Hague, in the hope that the trial there would be a fair one, run by people without a vested interest in BinLaden's conviction.
I notice you didn't say it is regrettable and tragic for the marines themselves, who have no ability to opt to stay home. They go where they are told and fight whomever they are told to fight. If you want to go after our government or military leaders, fine. But it sounds like you are blasting the marines themselves.
That's right...and by the way...if you are blasting the Marines themselves...you better blast the Marines at a safe distance...for sure! OOHRAH...and a big "Semper Fi" I must say!
'Cause that is a very unwise course of action for ANYONE!
Why would anyone bad mouth our Military Servicemen and women?
Absolutely not. I don't expect young guys to be mature enough to see through the militaristic propaganda put out by the warmongers in government and the media. They (the marines) are not to be blamed. Yet they should not be honoured above their peers who opt for a life of service in, say, dentistry or farming. The glorification of the military is unfortunate and anachronistic. Wilfred Owen saw through the hypocrisy 90 years ago. Yet we forget.
Your logic and that of this topic escapes me. It doesn't do anything for our service men and it gratuitously demeans a talented singer. Bush league.
Thank you. Since we are discussing Amy Winehouse I thought crass would be more than appropriate.
"We are not all American."
Sorry about your luck.
Wilfred Owen: DULCE ET DECORUM EST
Great Great poem
It is. And in it there is no disrespect for any rank and file serviceman. There is immense pity for them (but not glorification), hatred for war, and outright disgust at the posturing fools who send their young people to their death for the sake of their own puffed up pride.
Not to be a jerk, but not a single marine gave their life for me.
I never asked them to go there, they aren't defending me, and I don't want to be paying for them.
My grandfather was a marine during WWII, and that was arguably a defensive war (not really, though). My other grandfather was in the army. THEY were serving "me" a lot more than the marines today.
*not a single marine **in iraq, afghanistan, or the other warzones currently** gave their life for me*
I bet if you were facing having to live under a regime of horror that was going to force your tongue, your beliefs, your values to be lived as they dictated. Or if you're children, wife, sisters, mother, friends were at the becon call ofan army that could at any moments notice have thier way with them and/or kill them if they did not meet their expectations of pleasure (regardless of age) .... I"m pretty sure you'd be wishing for a marine/soldier to step up and protect you. You are VERY ignorant if you think your freedom is because of any OTHER reason than the fact that men and women will go to foriegn soil and fight wars to ensure that war doesn't reach American soil.
-Former Soldier that walked in danger's way so you could sleep peacefully at night.
Your a very confused and selfish person if you would sign off on that opinion about people that what look to be in your age frame...and gave their all for their contry. Oh...but what would you care...you get to say whatever you feel like on the internet anyways, right. The engagements they fight in on this day...and the onesthey have fought in on previous were ones that they were assigned when they committed themselves to service. They died in the middle of nowhere for this (American) countyr with or without your approval. Tomorrow they could all be called to fight for your very city or town. Then, I bet your appreciation level would rise dramatically. But, for now you have the freedom to say whatever is on your heart. Why don't you save all the whining on the internet and go up in person...and tell them how you really feel?
Bet you won't...Guessing that your conviction for what you said doesn;t run that deep. But, their conviction runs that deep, because they ultimately stood up to whatever would oppose them...and did it ...whether you choose to believe...with their country in mind. No sympathy for you for all the Memorial Walls that havfe been filled with these actions. Who is the one then deserves such harsh judgement against them
If a bullet is fired, if a drop of blood is shed, it is done for all Americans, not just those who are blood-related to them.
I really envy you, who can spout without knowledge, who can judge without caring.
but then, it is so sad that Amy Winehouse is dead, huh?
This is nonsense - I don't want to be at all associated with the bloodshed happening in Afghanistan or Iraq.
If you actually listened to the reasons the people bombed us on 9/11/01, it was because we've been over there for half a century killing them. The CIA identifies this as "blowback".
Now we've stepped up our presence and have been killing even more of them. Expect more blowback because of our idiotic foreign policy.
Oh, and remember -- every single terrorist who dies is "dying for their country" as well.
In every war, both sides claim to be fighting for God. But they're both wrong.
whatever. Don't cry for me, Evan, Don't cry for them, Evan, don't cry for anyone.
Blood is shed, but is it a choice? Yes. Did Amy choose to die? Yes, she did. If she chose to live she'd have worked WITH rehab, not sung songs about how it would not be working.
No one in Iraq is giving their life for their country. They're throwing their lives away for some idiotic venture.
The people that died in the Revolutionary War died for their country. The Southerners during the War of Northern Aggression died for their country. And the troops in Europe in WWII died because FDR wanted to be involved in the war -- "never let a good crisis go to waste".
The people giving their lives around the world are not doing it for the US. They're doing it for a much more foolish reason - world dominance.
Now you speak for the current Military. Your overconfidence in speaking your own opinion and stating it as a fact...knows no bounds. And your soloution to War is (in one of the statements you made on this page)...is it to just stay home? (Because...I don't honestly think we would avoid Wars...especially "unpopular ones".) That is a real good solution...in your little dream world!
How about this as a solution? The Powell Doctrine.
No wars until all other possibilities are exhausted. Authorization for military action. Specific quantifiable objectives so victory can be defined. Overwhelming force so victory is assured. An exit strategy clearly defined before we ever begin.
Iraq and Afghanistan would not have happened.
This policy would prevent our service people from being tragic punch lines to cynical political stories. Most of the dead are not heroes, but rather victims. They may act heroically, but being a hero requires a noble cause, and we have not offered up one of those to die for in many, many years.
If that story was told honestly, then the listing of the dead would become newsworthy, as someone would be telling us something about war that we don't often hear. The hero rhetoric is not news. It is fable.
This is not to denegrate the troops. They volunteer to serve no matter what idiocy we decide to use them for. There is a nobility to that, though I'm not sure how many of them have really considered that before offering up their lives as cynical sacrifices. They must serve even when the conflict runs against their own beliefs or convictions. They are tools to someone else's end.
Exactly: "This is not to denegrate the troops. They volunteer to serve no matter what idiocy we decide to use them for. There is a nobility to that, though I'm not sure how many of them have really considered that before offering up their lives as cynical sacrifices. They must serve even when the conflict runs against their own beliefs or convictions."
The US is the policeman of the world! We're God's Army! Nothing we do is wrong!!
Wake up and read about the reasons why they attacked us. It's because we're over there killing them, and have been doing so for decades.
Support our troops by bringing them home.
Someone I think you would enjoy reading is Noam Chomsky.
They have been doing alot of killing amongst themselves....long before we got there. I am not saying "hallelujah...thank god...we are over there"...by any means. I personally have attended many funerals of young people in the service and looked into the eyes of the young ones that were about to be deployed. That is not to brag...but an "honest-to-God" fact. That isn't a fantasy world ...as the one in which you dwell in.
Where I come from we have given credit where credit is due...though many Wars may have been unpopular...we don't bad mouth the ones who have served...or spit on them as the walk the gang ways back to our shores. Where I come we leave that up to the "whiners' who decide to vent their frustrations at our own troops...instead of the ones calling the shots. And when I say calling the shots...I mean...the dang blasted fargin' idiots on the enemy side that helped (no matter how much you want to hold their hand and go skipping through the forest with them) and who ...in my opinion...are the first rightly persons to blame.
Do I want our service people home...yes! Do I want for America to not police the whole world anymore...yes! Do I want peace within our own borders...yes! Do I want "Peace" across the board....yes! Do I want no more Wars...and...No more young people having to die on behalf of humans who can only settle their conflicts on the battlefield...Yes! Is that reality...based on mankinds entire recorded history on the face of the planet...No!
I hope you eventually grow up...and realize that just because you read a few books and a few articles...and listened to some politician that you happen to think was smart...doesn't give you the right...to critisize the ones who put their life on the line for you daily...with or with out your approval. They are still out there...in the field...serving!
I don't think Evan is attacking the troops, but rather the people that have needlessly put them in harms way.
Thank ye kindly.
The troops support Ron Paul - he receives the most donations from active duty troops.
Support the troops by bringing them home.
Ron Paul 2012.
By the way, you never told me what you thought of the poll data I linked to re: Paul.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls … dates.html
Or these poor children: http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/ofre/
At least the marines knew they were going into a war. Nobody expects to get shot at summer camp.
The youngest was just 14.
I don't think empathy and compassion work the way you think they do--where some people deserve sadness and others don't. The suggestion that we honor the military dead by being indifferent to other deaths ("so what") strikes me as perverse.
sad true, but what media could do any death justice, and why are we judging death? Sad
I have not read the whole forum here - I am Only answering to the question- yes its sad & it is a 'growing fact' in life... Not just celebrities but - 'Anybody!' - be it yourself, your parents, your children, spouse partner or whoever! ...Addiction is a number one killer in this modern age we live in...
It is a fact that survivors still struggle this deadly battle...
Does it matter WHY they died?
Any death is final ,therefore to be mourned with respect.
No amount of judgement ,honor or glory will bring them back.
Lesson we could learn is: love the people while we can.
Those names are not yours to use for expressing personal opinions about people you've never met.
How many dead people did you step on by posting this question?
I counted 12.
Sure she is dead, i agreed with the previous comment, WHY AMY? WHY NOT PRINCE WILLIAMS WEDDING? Heroes are Heroes i believe that, whether the media do their work or not, their name will always be on the platter of Gold, but if i may ask what type of headline do you want the media to put up for them? even if they do, not everybody will read it, let us just wish thier family well.Thanks for making that point of view.
My following comments will probably be very unpopular, but I will be honest when most people won't. I also don't care about Amy Winehouse dying, she was nothing to me. To the media, she was a great story.
But I have difficulty caring about people who die in war after willingly signing up to go to war. It saddens me that so many young kids die in countries we have no business being involved with. While soldiers joining the military to protect our freedom is noble, they aren't protecting our freedom in Iraq or Afghanistan. Politicians have distorted reality.
I'm sure this will offend some people, but it's the way I feel. I'm happy to have the freedom to have my own opinion. I'm thankful to the soldiers of the past who helped secure that freedom for me. But today, our freedom on a global scale is not threatened by any country for the exception of possibly China. No other country has the power to truly harm us, if they did it would have already happened.
Tough things to say, but I agree and it has to be said. I respect and value the service of the members of our armed forces. Unfortunately, their memories are tarnished by a distorted and false purpose.
You're right...what you say is very unpopular. People get on here and say stuff out of a lack of knowledge. I guess "cooldad" it is ok for someone elses child to volunteer and die for their country. I guess it is difficult to care about "young ones" dying because you don't know any. I guess you have never looked into their young determined eyes before being deployed. I guess you don't know honorable veterans and what they have been able to put on the line for you. I guess you did not serve or have any one close to you who did. The whole military way of life escapes you, and their humility and words that they keep to themselves throughout all the ones that have served...is something you would rather not support...because you never supported the cause they had to fight for...anyways. So therefore you can uncaringly state your opinion. I guess it is up to you to state what battles must be fought and which ones aren't...yet for the meantime...there are still engagements that "young ones' are sent to.
Thanks for the Support of the troops, cooldad!
As for the one who made note of the media not stating the name of all the heroes who have died...When has the media ever been on the side of the military...? Especially, if it didn't bring them more advertisers or help their own agenda. The media is two-faced...and one day, some day...people will boycott their foolish biasness...and think for themselves.
For Amy Wineghouse's family...it is a terrible tragedy to lose a young person...for any reason. If it happened to you. You would not reflect it in a comment.
Let the media do all the stupid talking. The Heroes have spoken volumes with their selfless acts. They signed up to join with many people opposing their actions. They are use to it. They did not need anyone's permission to be brave volunteers. They don't need anyone who doesn't care for them...using their brave sacrifice as a debate point. Leave the Honored and Selfless Ones Alone! Most all of them do it with a heart of service. I have witnessed this. Can you say the same for what you do?
I never said I didn't support the troops, typical knee jerk reaction. The truth hurts and the truth is that there isn't a 19 year-old on the planet who is intelligent enough to make a decision to fight in a war. Especially a war to free who? Iraqis, Afghans???? Makes a lot of sense. And guess what, gas prices are still high.
Please give me one good reason why our children go over there to die. We are already free and no one is threatening our freedom anymore.
I love being an American, I love being free, I thank the troops who fought for me, but times are different now. If you don't realize that, there is no hope for you.
A parent who looks into a "young one's" determined eyes should be able to tell them they shouldn't go fight in pointless battles and fight for politicians who don't care about them. You would tell that same"young one" not to drink and drive.
It's ok not to believe in war, it's ok to have a different opinion, even if it angers you. Determination doesn't make something right or intelligent. I think I'm informed enough to identify that we are fighting pointless wars. Why didn't we help Rwanda, Darfur or Bosnia?? Because they have nothing we want or need.
I can still be patriotic and not agree with what our country does overseas.
Funny...you would use the word "jerk" in your reply.
No...you just said that you didn't care. Which is the same as not supporting the troops...do you not see that?
You can't say out of both sides of your mouth...whatever it is you stand for...which is obviously...the middle of the fence. Are you in Politics?
Wars are bad....and young ones go off to war...whether you approve of it or not. It is as real as the fact that you "don't support them".
Saying you don't care about the one who is lying in his own blood in the sand of another foriegn country...is the same as not supporting the troops. Is it that hard for you to figure out?
If it still is...then stay true to what you believe and go run up and grab a young person in our military...and tell them exactly what you said on page 1 or 2 of this ridiculous forum. Stay true to your convictions and beliefs...and quit whining back to what I said.
I support our troops. They are doing what they are called to do. It is the Politician that calls the shots...and unfortunately...there will be Wars. War is hell. Ask anyone in the Military. Just quit hiding behind the liberties that them that have fought and died for now...for the future...and forever...have given you.
'Cause...you can trust me on this...Everyone with in the confines of the Military takes on Oath to defend those Liberties...and to put their life on the line...if that is what it takes to do so. All of them. What have you done for your country, lately?
That was certainly a productive response.
Oh, one thing you said, about gas prices still being high.. Guess the war in Iraq wasn't all about oil after all, huh?
if it were about oil, where is it? How the HECK am I supposed to know what it was about? I'm not in a position to know any more than you or anyone else on this forum.
It is clear, however, if someone were to use a modicum of common sense, if the war was about oil, then we'd have some of it, but we do not.
The rest is conjecture.
There is another possibility.
More importantly, you don't care what it's about. "How should I know?" you cry, as if that is some kind of justification for our involvement. What it's about should be clearly stated and be a goal the people of this country firmly support. You don't even think it matters.
Wow...that was really a very intelligent response on your part..."How Typical!" Especially With the Whining...when things don't go your way! Please, don't be so mean to people that you can't support.
Why do some people always say that is a "typical" response...like cooldad has made mention of. Are they self-proclaimed and all knowing gurus of what "typical" reponses are made across the internet. No...I have a theory that the people that respond with "How Typical" when they can't come up with a better rebuttal...or if they suddenly find out that some person actually opposes their post...and so then that could be the only reason for someone to that. "Typical" must mean...like...people that answer beneath your own mighty level of intelligence.
Only "Typical" people with out brains (unlike the word you used... ) would dare to disagree with their viewpoint. Wow...how "less-open" to others people way of thinking can you be!
I'm just guessing that the only one that is ever right when they say something...is you. HHHmmm...You "started the not caring about our military" and then this is the only thing you can conclude from all that you've said....?
Guess you didn't think about the repreccussions of what that meant. I seriously don't know how you said what you said...and take offense to it just like you said someone would. Guess that has been the only thing you've been right about on this forum post...Huh?
Since I'm so ignorant, please someone tell me exactly what we accomplished by fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. Someone please tell me that an 18 year-old child has enough life experience to sign up for war. Please, someone tell me why we didn't send troops to help Rwanda, Darfur or Bosnia?
I don't feel sorry for people who willingly sign up to go to war and then die as a result. Same as I don't feel sorry for someone who willingly plays with a rattlesnake, gets bitten and then dies.
Wake up people, there is no reason why we should be sending troops overseas to die. Our freedom is not at stake and hasn't been for years.
Maybe one day, common sense will be embraced in our country.
No shit, right?
"Man, thank god thousands of Americans died in these far off lands! Thank goodness that thousands more can't get a good night's sleep because they wake up terrified that someone might be trying to kill them!! ... wait ... what the hell are we getting out of this?"
The US is an empire, and the reason we were bombed on 9/11 is because the rest of the world is pissed off with us taking them over. It's called Blowback.
Don't worry, cooldad, the people demanding that "we support our troops" are the people who aren't listening to the troops. The troops want to come home. Ron Paul receives the most money from active duty military personnel, and his message is clear:
"we just marched in, we can just march out."
"You're not allowed to go to war without a declaration of war!"
BOth of you REALLY need to read your history books. It always astound me how little people really know about history and then blab offthings like "why are we fighting over there, why do we care? lets just stay home and protect our mainland" I know two things when people start spouting this off: They don't know their history and they have never been in the military. I once was this ignorant too so i CAN understand WHY people think like this. But I ws young when I thought like this, then I went to school and studied WWI and WWII and other atrocities around the world and the impact these wars had and would have on American soil and what would be inevitable if we had NOT interviened. (that's the real reason) and then I joined the military and saw with my own eyes what happens to people who live under regimes of horror. Children and women suffer, men trying to make a living supporting their families die for target practice and many many other grotesque atrociities that you could not see in movies or read about in books. And once you see this and realize that YOU are part of something that is able to stop it, to put an end to it you are damn proud to be an american. NO ONE likes war. Both sides KNOW that your probbaly going to shoot someone that doesn't want to be there. THe fact of the matter is that if dont step up then the horrors spread like a cancer and the stronger the regime gets. If it gets too strong then war on american soil is inevitable.
And yes we are the police of the world. And that is somethign we should be proud of. If we have the power and might to make right the wrongs of world then that is a reposinsibilty we bear.
If you TRULY don't care, if you truly think the way you proclaim on here, then I STRONGLY urge you to go spend a year in a 3rd world country where they live in fear of being raped or killed every day of thier lives. I can GURANTEE you you will change your mind in under 6 months.
I sympathize with your post, and if that is what we were really doing I would find it noble and uplifting.
Unfortunately, that is not why we go and intervene in any given conflict. We do it for our national interests, and nothing more. That is why we let the insanity go on in Africa. We have no economic upside there, so let the killing, maiming and raping continue. We don't benefit. The wheels of government don't turn except for self-interest. It is far more crass than the noble construct you are presenting.
Oh .. I see.. your right. I just made all that up. I havent' seen what Ive seen. I just made it up. I made up all the atrocities and the fear I've seen in people's eyes. I made up the countless smiles and heartfelt cries of families that ran up to me and hugged me once they saw I arrived in thier village. I made all that up. Everything over there is about oil and money.. nothing to do with the lives that are being killed or the generations that live in fear under a regime that is gaining power, or the generations that are being taught in fear to hate and plot and plan to kill Americans - any american, not just soldiers-. Get outside of your box of thinking realize there is a much much bigger picture. Read everythign you can about HItler and WWI and WHY we got involved. Do you think you would be speaking English or German right now if we had not got invovled when we did? And we DO intervene in Africa, and Bosnia, and 3rd world counries. There is a BIG difference between a civil war and regime that is acting out violence in an effort to gain power. But.. again, you're right, I just made all that up too.
And if you believe, as your posts submit- then I can give you this advice.. when American soldiers come home.. Don't be in line waving your flag and "supporting" them.. because truthfully you don't. And while on teh surface we cannot tell that, I can tell you we don't want that "kind" of support. It's hiprocritical. We get that the average american doesn't udnerstand every mission. Most sodliers do'nt fully grasp it all until later in the ranks when missions and motives are revealed. But ALL of that is moot, because the impact is this: I didn't make it up, I did see those things. I did see my buddies die. I did see strangers die. I did see women crying becuase thier children were raped or beaten or battered because they did things children do and I did feel the hugs of people who were so thankful we had arrived. I cannot blame you for your ignorance, I can only blame you if you decide not to educate yourself and then continue to show disrespect to anyone who serves for your freedom.
If we withdrew all troops from abroad and left everything and everyone to fend for themselves. If we ignored the cries of the innocent lives that needed our help because - hey we are only taking care of america's homeland- then we will cease as a nation in a matter of decades and we will be over ran by a military might stronger than our current.
Nobody suggested you haven't seen the things you've seen, and that is not a rational argument against what I said. It's an emotional one, and to wrap our heads around the truth, we need rational thought, not gut reaction.
The U.S. does not move without the possibility of self interest, and the fact that the service people are disconnected from what those interests are is one of the conditions of service. It doesn't matter. Their's is not to wonder why. Their's is but to do and die.
That doean't make every move of the government noble or high minded. Your brothers and sisters died over a total lie about WMD's, while Hans Blix waived his hands in the air, shouting "Wait, wait!" Does talking about that make me an enemy of the troops? Hardly. It is they I am trying to support by not making them disposable resources used up at the whim of cynical politicians.
You need to believe the way you do to keep your sanity. To realize what has been done to our troops for the love of money is unconscionable.
It isn't as simple as good vs. evil. We have enormous amounts of dirt on our hands.
But again, I invite you to look a little further instead of what is portrayed in the media and/or TV. Look at a bigger picture. I know for a fact that gov covers up stuff. I've seen it. I also understand WHY they do it. And though I don't/didnt always agree with it, I understood it and it was because there is always a bigger picture.
If there is suspected child abuse going on in a home but there is no proof, and the home is shelling out children that keep coming out beaten and battered but the police cannot intervene because there is not "proof".. the police find a way around it to get a warrant to investigate in an attempt to save the children. Now sending in those cops could have, unfortunately , dire consequences and those cops know tha before going into the house but they also understand that they are trying to save lives... not just those of the children but of future generations. (Ignorance breeds ignorance, violence breeds violence and hate breeds hate). So the "made up" story the cops used to get into the home may not be perfectly moral, but it is a means to an end. I am sure you can connect the dots with what I'm saying. Unfortunately, the media will only show that the cops went into the home because the home was suspected of harboring the FBI's most wanted list - and when there was none in the home the media ran with it because some cops got killed. THe children were saved (yay!) but then no "American" really takes notice because it was not an american child because this didn't happen in your neighborhood.
And yes, your first answer did suggest that I made it all up because your answer was that "while what you write would be noble if it were true.." well guess what buddy, it is true. Why would I make that up just to get into an argument. It isn't your lack of suppor that really gets me going, it's just the lack of ignorance - and again I dont really blame you. I blame mostly the media. But if you did open your mind and think "wow, maybe there is a bigger picture, maybe there is a reason why we have so many troops in SKorea right now (I mean NKorea isn't really a threat so why have them all over there?)",
um.. I dunno, maybe that big red star country has something to do with it??
OHHHH , so you mean NKorea is our "reason" for having troops close to China's border just in case China has a reason to attack us?"
Yes.. doesn't that make more sense than to believe the hype that we are there protecting Skorea from Nkorea? I mean NKorea would be obliterated in a few hours if they jumped the wrong way. BUT they do have an insane dictator that has insane sons - where have we seen that before??? (Hitler)
OH..but what did Hitler do?
But China is our friend!
(seriously?) We could take China if we had to --- A war against China would be a very long and costly war.
But Iraq was all about oil...
SO the fact that the insane dicatator with insane sons that was invading countries using chemical warfare and gaining power wasn't reason enough to put a stop to it? (not to most uneducated americans who think 'i'ts not us, let us worry about our own people).
Well did we have to send troops??
lets see.. did we threaten Iraq and ask them to stop and give them a cease fire when they invaded Kuwait? We did. Did they listen. No they didn't. Did Kuwait's children and families die. Yes they did. Did Kuwait ask for our help? Yes they did.
BUT WAIT! And I bet I got you here: DIdn't we GIVE weapons to IRAQ years earlier?!!!
Yes we did.
SO we are stupid?
No we are not... by giving (selling) them weapons, we KNOW what they are using and what they are capabale of.
OH!.. so let me get this straight.. we put people in other countries so we can react faster IF something breaks out that might ultimatley threaten our homeland (lesson learned at Pearl harbor) and we try to garner every advantage we can by knowing what they are capable of throwing at us.
Yes, that is true.
And by doing this -that's HOW I have the freedoms I have?
Well that is a pretty big picture.
So aside from saving the children, the families, and keeping the generations from being corupted there is ALWAYS a national interest of security. The media and the people that don't understand the whole security bigger picture will always blame money, oil, politics etc. And I'm not saying that it's all inncoent - it isn't. There is money to be made. I can tell you, that our gov and our military leaders will NOT send men and women to war unless there is a bigger picture that is in the national security interest of our country. It's never about oil. Oil is an escape goat. If you really (and I don't know if you do or not) think its about oil, look up how much oil the US has in reserves in Alaska alone and ask yourself, if it was REALLY about oil, why wouldn't we just tap into those? It is ALWAYS about putting America in a strategic position to protect our homeland and/or to stop a heinous dictator from gaining power. We have a threshold that is unseen to americans. It is a table that shows how much power we have and it equates to a percentage of military might. To make it simple: If all troops were home, we would have a VERY high high percentage of vulnerabilty because all it wold take would be an invasion on our homeland (we can't bomb our own cities in defense) so we spread our troops out in key points. As we do this our vulnerabilty drops BUT the more spread out we are the percentage starts to rise. We try to find the happy medium. Then we also have a draft of every other country out there including allies of thier military might (it's quite complex) and once a certain enemy reaches a certain percentage then we must do something to tip the power they are gaining, else our vulnerabilty starts to rise again.
I did not suggest your stories weren't true. What isn't true is the high minded noble purposes that our government is believed to be pursuing.
You choose to err on the side of us always doing the right thing. I choose to err on the side of power being a corrupting force, and there is no reason to believe this isn't true simply because we hold the power.
Your cop story is truly frighening. In a country that is defined by being a country of laws, you believe any means justify the ends. That makes us no different from those that would choose to fly planes into a building. They saw an end and a means to pursue it. Who cares if it is legal, or righteous? It got the job done. That is supposed to be one of the things that sets us apart as a country. Sure, it's a fable, but it's our fable, and we don't give it a passing glance.
Do you not know that before Iraq invaded Kuwait, they asked our permission and we granted it? Our position was Arab on Arab conflict was of no interest to us, and we would not intervene.
I understand why you need to see us as the good guys in order to live with what you have seen. The facts are just more mixed than what you have painted. When the Phillipines asked for help against the Spanish, they weren't asking to become a U.S. territory, and we committed horrible atrocities there and became their overlord. That isn't what they wanted.
The truth is far more grey than what you paint. Have we done some wonderful good in the world? Without question. As we have seen the power of the U.S. grow, have we seen that power start to corrupt our motives? Unquestionably.
The truth is never black and white, and those that want the world to be colored that way have to work very hard altering the truth to come up with a lithograph that will support their vision.
Here I thought I was the only one who really didn't feel like the marines or armed forces are serving my interests by bombing a bunch of civilians in a far away land!
It might stun you to find out that the Marines don't care about your interests, they go and do for this Country's interests.
Whether this Country is right or wrong isn't their concern.
They don't have the luxury of choice.
Except the war in Iraq wasn't and isn't in the US's best interests. It's been bad for our interests--it's eaten up many lives and lots of treasure (much of which is unaccounted for) and it has stretched our military capability very thin. If a crisis (one that really did threaten American freedom) erupted in, say, Central America, would we have the capability to respond?
It sure has been good for some corporations, though.
And yet, the person who gains the most money from Active duty service men go to Ron Paul...
Yes, they do have a choice ... they need not join the forces. Sadly young men all think they are going to be macho heroes. Death is the risk you take if you join the forces ... it is what being a soldier is all about. Death is final, it is not an X-box game where you get up and walk away.
If politicians and media glorify conflict, it is up to parents to teach their kids reality.
It's funny: after all those brave servicemen and women died and sacrificed to defend our freedom, we seem to be a lot less free.
How does that work?
I dunno, but Obama signed the legislation into law from across the ocean with a long-distance electric pen.
Apparently stripping us naked at airports and listening to our conversations is so important to that man that they needed to invent a long-distance signing device.
Kick him out in 2012 if you value liberty.
We tend to lose our freedom here as the consequence of our own government behaving in was that would get them invaded if they were, say, Germany.
Think of the interment camps for Japanese Americans. Stripping them of property, prosperity and liberty while fighting the Germans who had done the same to Jews, Gypsies, Poles, Homosexuals and others.
Or the stripping of Italian and German Americans of their property. Joe DiMaggio's father was a fisherman - he lost his boat during WWII, to the State. Remember it was a wonderful, liberal Democrat, FDR, who signed off on all kinds of impositions on liberty.
At one point he wanted the editorial board of the Chicago Tribune(if I am remembering right) arrested for publishing a story.
Remember when Geraldo gave away the position of the unite with which he was embedded? I wonder what the conversation in the Pentagon was like.
Yeah, and during WWII we also imposed gas rationing, meat rationing, a draft, a recycling program, and all kinds of other liberal impositions on liberty.
Was interring Japanese Americans and seizing the property of Italian and German Americans wrong? Of course.
Was meat rationing wrong? Well, you'll have to figure that out for yourself, I guess.
I know that no one will see the connection, but we're losing our freedoms because we're not on the Gold Standard.
Yes, I know that everyone will demand I'm a lunatic... But just think about how the loss of liberty tends to coincide with wartime. Then think about how wars are funded (it sure as hell ain't through taxes). Then think about how the newly printed money benefits certain people over others.
Then realize that gold can't be printed out of thin air.
If you value peace, then you value liberty. If you value liberty, then you value gold.
I am sure that the brave soldiers deserve to be remembered. I am equally sure that a singer who gave pleasure to millions of people through her talent, voice and songs is also deserving.
While you are listing soldiers it might be an idea to list all the Afghan villagers who died this week, or perhaps the children in the US who failed to get adequate health care and died as a result.
Perhaps the road accident victims, and maybe those whose lives were lost in other ways.
I'm not really a great believer in anyone having a moral right to claim superiority in death. It's the same end for everybody.
"adequate health care" that is nonsense in the truest sense of the word... All children can get health care if their parents take them in.
A doctor is not going to refuse health care to a child and every state in the union has benefits for children who are not under a corporate health care plan... We can cry over Amy Winehouse if we want, and we can feel sorrow for the sons who won't return from ill-conceived wars in the middle east.
The original poster said absolutely nothing about any soldiers. All those young men were Marines. (soldiers are in the Army).
It is always sad to lose a life. Children join the military to do something right. just because the "infinite wisdom" of the proposed "leadership" of this country don't have the right idea is never a reason to slam a serviceman or woman who has chosen the right path during the "wrong" time in history.
This forum, like many others, turns to name calling, lack of sentiment, and just plain ugliness for the sake of saying what you "can" because it is your "right"..
Well, thank a Marine for your RIGHT!
My grandfather was an engineer and a marine.
When those towers fell on 9/11 his only words were "buildings don't fall down like that without intricate planning."
So... your righteous defense of the marines cuts both ways.
I don't have to live vicariously through someone else who was in the Marines.
I lived it through my own sweat.
Cry me a river another day. There was no conspiracy. Those who did it knew what they were doing because they were also led by engineers who know what happens..
They were thrilled that it was worse than they thought it would be....
You are on the side of the killers? Or are you on the belief that around 3000 people (plus service people) died because someone hated us?
I think that your words convey much of that same hate. It saddens me to see the divisiveness in this country.
I cry for all that die not by their own hands. I do not cry for the weak who cannot figure out that their money and fame is not worth their death.
You can judge Amy's talent here if you like.
edit: Amy in 2005 - young, talented and so alive...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KnBVJfX … ature=fvst
I'm enjoying this... here's some more Amy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO4SznMG … re=related
I have to say I wasn't really a great fan of Amy's.
But after a bit of YouTube trawling this probably shows why people picked up on her talent.
Her death is no more important than anyone else's death of course, the same as that ridiculous Royal Wedding was no more important than any other wedding, and the President of the US is of no more importance than an office cleaner.
Maybe death is the only chance we get to be equal.
Anyway.. one more.. now you have got me thinking about death and stuff.
Seriously, listen to this without hearing that talent. Wow.
I'm sorry guys.
She is.. sorry was... absolutely fantastic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPfyBFri … re=related
Yep, her talent is almost commensurate with the OP's insensitivity!
I soooooooooooooooo agree, i love her voice. Thanks for introducing me to those interviews, and songs. Even at 19 she was a genius, far too young to die. Her interviews are so worth watching......
We should not be so judgemental, who knows how she suffered...... Only 27
R.I.P another genius gone far too early...
I have to agree Mark. This young lady had so much to offer the world, especially before the media moguls got hold of her.
Easy to blame her no good wasted husband, but who was it made her change her hair and her style? Not him.
Can you name the 157 Canadian's who died in Afghanistan?
Every single one of them got a mention in the national media.
I don't see why we have to keep bringing up the fact that someone famous died when something awful also happened. It is quite possible for people to be affected by Amy Winehouse's death, what happened in Norway, and the death of soldiers at the same time... Basically I'm saying...people are capable of caring about more than one issue. I'm also affected by the famine in Somalia.
Do you mean to tell me that if a relative died on the same day the Norway shooting occurred that that would make their death less important?
Amy Winehouse died so you could post an indignant thread about her death not being important. You should thank her for personal tragedy becoming your intellectual prop.
Bizarre thread. The upper section has become an argument about the military and down here I've tried to create an Amy Winehouse appreciation society.
Personally, I would take music over war / politics / business / religion every time.
Those people discussing war heroes might like to consider that others have different types of heroes. For me, Hendrix and Lennon would pretty much beat any warrior types to my personal hall of fame.
Interesting what responses the subject of death brings.
I do think it's sad when someone says they don't care.
Have you ever lost a close family member or friend unexpectedly?
Concerning the servicemen, they (those who died that day) are given tribute and a moment of silence each night at the end of the PBS newshour. They show a photo with the name, age, military branch, rank and location of each American soldier. It does affect me each time.. They didn't need to die in these wars. But they did, and it's sad.
I certainly don't see that as glorification.
What!? PBS!? Those America-hating commies take a moment at the end of their premier news program to honor fallen soldiers? Don't tell people about this--it'll mess up their narrative.
This entire thread is a fallacious attempt to smear the media and it is weak and naive. Well, perhaps not naive. Cynical manipulation might be more accurate.
The phrase cynical manipulation implies a level of forethought and intelligence that is just not evident. I think incompassionate soap-boxing might be a better description.
If you have to use somebody's death to forward your own agenda then that's pretty sad... pitiful almost.
An intelligent debate would have started with "Why is there no media coverage of the soldiers that lost their lives?" The way the argument was stated was meant to be inflammatory, which is BTW, exactly the same tactics used by the media that he complains so bitterly about.
The OP doesn't want conversation, he wants to stir the pot and get people upset. Since no good can come from that, I assume that hes just trolling.
This is why the troops need to come home. No one gives a sh!t,,,sad very sad
Vote for Ron Paul - he's the only candidate who is demanding their return.
He also gets the most donations from active-duty military personnel.
He's also unelectable, so your enthusiasm is misguided, as he will never run this country. I agree with some of what he says, but he is not a plausible, electable candidate. Kocinich is also not electable. Extreme positions lose in politics. Your enthusiasm won't change that.
Wake up - he's electable.
http://www.dailypaul.com/171914/ron-pau … -poll-7-26
Wake up - he's electable
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ … on_paul_41
What was that?
He IS electable?
RON PAUL 2012.
See you in 2012. I'll try not to gloat.
Here's the latest poll data.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls … -1452.html
His problem isn't his politics, it's his ability to appeal from the stump. Fair or unfair, it's true, and he can't reinvent those spots.
It's also funny... Trump said Paul wasn't electable... then he claimed victory for having Obama's certificate released, ate a slice of crappy pizza with a knife and fork with Palin, and then stepped out of the race.
Strange argument started here. My brother was found dead on the same day as the Indian Ocean tsunami disaster that killed 283,000 people.
One was not more important than the other, but one affected me personally a lot more.
Oh and there was no news coverage whatsoever of my brother's death either.
Amy Winehouse is dead - so what.
Yeah. Too bad it wasn't Lindsay Lohan.
[Note to forum readers: This is NOT my opinion. I only said it because it was the most callously inane thing that adds absolutely nothing to the discussion I was able to think of.]
Amy Whinehouse , An unbelievable talent ! An unbelievable quest for the bottom! Too bad , as they all had, morrison, hendrix, blah blah blah, better to die with a purpose ......like any soldier , sailor , airman! An addict ?.........Ahhh no sympathy!
Why don't you go join the armed services, ahorseback.
Is it her talent that was unbelievable or that we have slid so far as a culture to call this unbelievable talent?
I think it says an awful lot about a person when they denigrate anyone's death.
I remember the first time I heard her sing ....Wow ! ...but the more I watched and listened to her?.....Too bad ! She had a death wish.......Sorry!
Until the other night I thought she was already dead. She may have been and just animated by the chemistry experiment she was conducting with her brain.
I am surprised that this thread has made it to 50 posts. I guess the in-fighting is much ado about not much.
You want to place blame for who gets media attention, then make sure you blame the right folks. The media. Not much else to say about it.
Perhaps it isn't the producer of media garbage but the consumer thereof. Without the consumer how long would production continue. I think Pogo said it best, "We have met the enemy and they is us."
Naw. The blame can be placed on the media, without any doubt. It picks and chooses what it wants to display.
Fame and Fortune usually provides viewers more so than a patriotic salute to those who have died to protect the country, and mass media knows. It's part of the dumbing down of society.
Wow. What a pitiful and bizarre way to make a point. Not a single life or death is meaningless. Anyone who thinks or says so is both dishonest and cruel. Amy Winehouse is dead, and someone, somewhere LOVED Amy Winehouse, just as many fallen members of armed services around the world have been LOVED. To start a snarky, snotty thread such as this shows me evidence that LIFE is obviously of little value to the OP.
I certainly do not mean to be offensive, but every life is valuable, and every death is tragic. This thread is even less than distasteful, it's flat out shameful.
My point exactly. You seem to be saying that Amy Winehouse's death is not. You honestly should be ashamed of yourself.
I am wounded. Your opinion of me is so important to me. I am so sorry I .... Really? Would anyone have noticed or cared if she had been a vagrant who snuffed her self huffing paint thinner? If the death of a selfish "celebrity" can teach us anything it is that idiots are everywhere.
I'm sure you don't give a flying fig what I think. Good thing the feeling's mutual.
YES. Someone cared. Just like someone will care when you shuffle off this mortal coil. That's my point. She's a human being, as are you. As such, her life had value.
Your inflammatory thread and rotten comments don't mean she was a useless human being.
Care or not, you should be ashamed.
"Your inflammatory thread"
Youre so right.
I am very inflamed.
Wow, you're a real winner. I think I'll bow out now before you make me cry.
/\ What SHE said - Ms. Winehouse could fucking SING. Perhaps some respect for the lost and the deceased is in order here. . .
I agree, we need respect for the deceased.
All dead people need more respect: Thomas Jefferson, Every dead marine, every dead jihadist, Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Adolf Hitler...
... wait... wait... whoa... "let's respect every dead person" really has some strange side effects.
Maybe too many family members were making a little bling for a family intervention! No need to get all high and mighty about the poor baby girl.....she had every break in the book..."Re-Hab"....regurgitated....
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/amy … d=14181980
It may be that Amy died because she was trying to clean up too fast. For all those that wanted to put her in a dumpster because she was a no-good junky drunk, here's to you.
Dog bites man is not news. Soldier or marine dies in war is equally expected. That is why the presses don't stop for this news. Tragic? Unbearably, as our foreign policy has thrown these amazing people away for nothing. But news? Hardly.
Amy Winehouse was a huge talent and beloved by millions of fans. Her passing is news, as it effects the culture on a grand scale and it is sudden and unexpected.
This thread is about posturing, not true outrage about media.
Now this would be a headline......
"After 10 Years of Fighting, U.S. Still Has No Casualties"
Homeless woman dies huffing paint thinners isn't much of a news story either. But celebritard kills self with drugs or in rehad -AGAIN or wraps Bentley around tree is a story because of the sick voyeurism that makes an annoying egomaniac a curiosity.
the sick voyeurism that makes an annoying egomaniac a curiosity"
Have you ever wondered why liberals/progressives continue to interact with you on the forums even though you have made it crystal clear that you don't care a whit what they/we have to say?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
You didn't read the whole post, I guess. The speculation is that she died from alcohol withdrawal. She was trying to clean up too quickly, apparently.
Would it be news if Colin Powell died? Of course, because many people know and respect him. He's a celebrity. That's news.
I really don't know what point you are trying to make, but whatever it is, you're failing miserably.
Amy Winehouse was a large talent and her loss touches millions around the world.
Is there more to it than that?
Not big news to me , But here's a toast to the creation of another member of the twenty seven club, and the glorification of addiction and bizzare behavior , yes the stadium awaits the gladiators of pop as she performs for her masses. She joins Elvis and Jimi, Jim and Janis......
Isn't that what you are doing! It actually matters what kind of person the artist is to me! Guess what bruce , shes not an artist now.....at least as much of one that you will make her into in the future. What scares me is that your 12 year old girls and boys would imitate her act! And guys like thier parents stand wringing thier hands after the fact! Gee what did I do wrong? As they collect the royalties!
They said that in the forties about Sinatra, and the fifties about Elvis. Small minds always fear genius. Look at what the church did to Gallileo.
Genius often comes in imperfect packages. I'm guessing you would find Henry Ford to be a great American, but he was a Nazi sympathizer, as was Lindbergh. Greatness often has a cost.
Fortunately, you will avoid those costs.
If Sinatra and Elvis were on all kinds of drugs and such at least they kept it silent in the background instead of making that part of their influence on children.
Genius? Talent is at the very least a savant activity. Genius? Really... I think she could sing, otherwise she would not have so many fans. I really don't know if I've ever heard her.
No one should die, but she committed self-inflicted suicide, yes, redundant I know, but so did John Belushi, and Chris Farley, and, didn't River Phoenix(?) Janis Joplin.... and the list goes on....
Too bad that a singer is gone. We have no one to replace her.
You didn't read the whole thread did you?
I posted an ABC News story that reported she may have died from alcohol withdrawal.
She tried to quit too quickly.
You are so moved by the Marines that you have made a rude accusation about Amy Winehouse in a knee-jerk need to character assassinate someone different from you.
brief, poignant posts get my attention faster. Sorry I don't slow down. Don't have the time.
Oh now poor Amy was a genius, interesting! See what I mean,and the Image grows! ....starting now. "Genius comes in imperfect packages" whooo! I can only hope to avoid greatness as such , want to know greatness , genius ? Don't look to the commercial music scene.
By the way - this made me laugh - not a sarcastic laugh but an honest to goodness laugh. I wonder if it is a criticism or an accolade to be told "You have successfully avoided greatness." Isn't greatness one of those double edged swords of which we have heard so much?
There are geniuses in every human endeavor. Science, commerce, the arts. It isn't the form it takes that makes genius what it is.
I guess there's an irony in this thread. The So What element.
If you had just listed the dead servicemen no one would have taken much notice. You needed Amy Winehouse to get some attention.
Perhaps rather than going on about her faults you should extol their virtues.
Do you know much about them, apart from the names?
Yup, you basically used Amy Winehouse the same way as the media are doing...to get ratings or views.
So you understood the media from the get go?
What a waste of a thread.
So you gained no insight or understanding, exercised no rhetorical ability, didn't think at all while posting to this thread? You didn't consider the nature of celebrity, media, fame, addiction, art, vanity, self loathing, self destruction at all? Seems there were many opportunities to think and write about the ideas presented by everyone on this thread. Sorry you squandered your opportunity.
Don't you squander every opportunity when you have a self-stated position that you don't care about anyone's opinion but your own? You have repeated that like a mantra, so why come here at all. You already have your entrenched positions, so why engage?
So you're right, I can gain from being here. What was silly is your presence and your starting it.
Please Sigmund crawl inside my head and tell me what I think. Typical.
I'm not crawling inside your head.
I'm quoting your repeated post on these threads.
These are simply your words, regurgitated (which is frankly the only way they could come out of my mouth).
I, long ago, surrender to the reality and futility of talking to liberals. It isn't out of animosity or hatred. It really is futile. It is like a Martian talking with an Earthling. What Rosetta Stone exists between the liberal and the conservative?
"The smaller the mind the greater the conceit."
So once again, why come here at all?
I admit I have solid opinions, but I have also on the rare occaision encountered information that for me was new, and had to be contended with. With your attitude, that can't happen to you, so when you gave your list of all the wonderful things that we could have gleaned from your thread, you specifically exclude yourself from any of them happening.
You are a wonderful way to teach the meaning of hubris.
"You are a wonderful way to teach the meaning of hubris."
What's that pot? The kettle's black?
Well, you have seen me agree with you even in this thread. We all have strongly held opinions, but few of us brag that other people's opinions don't matter and can not possibly influence our own. Uncorrectedvision has made that statement.
You see no difference?
Your opinions changed when confronted with Libertarianism and an economic philosophy that made sense to you. With UV's point of view, it would have had no impact.
I see a significant difference. Not sure where the angst is coming from.
Do you, does anyone who is healthy in themselves readily bend with the opinions of others. I do not yield merely because someone says something. Opinions bear no weight without a reasoned underpinning. The opinion doesn't interest me, at all. It is what lies beneath. From where does opinion come?
For instance Karl Marx begins with an opinion that the history of Man is the history of class struggle. Some find that opinion so compelling that they wreck their culture, economy and prosperity to end something predicated on the false idea of "social class."
Not all opinions are worthy of consideration. I don't care about what amounts to personal tastes. Liberalism is predicated on the emotional and fantastic. What interest does that hold, except as a curiosity?
So, to expose ideas, I grab a big stick and start stirring. Nothing reveals more than a disagreement or the disagreeable. Little progress is achieved in harmony. Check C.Wright Mills. Conflict is necessary for real progress. Liberalism doesn't tolerate the unpredictable and order is the enemy of the individual.
Rest In Peace, Amy. God knows you didn't find it in this life.
He likes the attention.
No, just pointing out the game you play. You say you don't care about anyone's thoughts or ideas, especially those that come from liberals, yet you spend a LOT of time on the political forum, which most people would agree is a forum for discussion of ideas.
You are obviously bright, yet you waste your time with those you deem unworthy of even the most minimal consideration.
Why am I posting this? Because, in real life, I spend a lot of time finding common ground with conservatives and others with opposing ideas, in an effort to move forward. I propose to my fellow liberals and progressives here on this forum that they don't bother responding to one who clearly states they have no interest in hearing or considering other points of view.
That is all.
Enjoy your day, uncorrect.
What does any liberal share in common with a conservatives? It all stops at a common humanity and even that is a point of contention. The world view that makes one a liberal is so divorced from the philosophical understanding of human nature of conservatism that no common language exists.
Read over all the posts on here - where is the common ground? Where is the shared understanding of politics, economics, culture, history, sociology, psychology? What language do we share? Every concept that is discussed between liberals and conservatives comes down to hating the rich, GWB and Sarah Palin or Haliburton or - pick your villain. The one constant point in the disagreement is liberals believe in the centralization of power in the hands of a political elite - Die Stat - and conservatives insist on the decentralization of power in the hands of individuals.
It really is that simple. Where is the common ground available between the Statist/Collectivist and the Individualist? These are perfectly and diametrically opposed ideas. What common ground is possible?
Ok fella, enough chat about a pop star you claim to have no interest in.
Let's have a look at this instead shall we?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib … oner_abuse
Do you understand why the world outside America, and hopefully largely within, does not believe anymore? You wage democracy across continents, claim freedom of speech, while breaking the Geneva convention and maintaining Guantanamo.
Every shred or pretence of holding moral superiority has been lost over the last few years.
You think a singer has no greater claim on our souls than the military?
Think again friend. Some of us would rather listen to great music than the twisted lying deceits that result in hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths wherever you want to wander.
Go away and list them all on some wall somewhere. Don't forget to put the childrens names of the Iraqi and Afghan villages.
Heroes? Yeah, right.
Mark, thanks for the links you posted last night, to the young Amy. I bought her album Frank in 2003, thought she was brilliant, still do. Needless to say I was up till the wee hours listening to those early recordings.
Thanks Hollie. It was a journey for me too. I knew she was good, but hadn't really heard very much. Found it quite an emotional experience listening to it. Bought both albums today.
I just hope when your time comes, people will be respectable and say, well.... try to say nice things about you.
After all, no one will leave this world alive...
All of this from a distasteful statement which had good intint! I am a veteran and daily give thanks to the men who serve our country. Had I the resources I would have a website specificly for honoring fallen troops as they loose thier lives. Not sure though how i could get the names. Anyway. She was a celebrity with problems and addictions.oh that comes with the teritory of hVING MONEY AND EXCESS TIME. but, SHE TO DESERVES RESPECT AS WELL AS "anyone", FALLEN HERO OR NOT! jUST SAYIN'!
After reading some of the comments on this thread, there should be little wonder why there is so much misunderstanding in the world. There is nothing more grievous and tedious than an over inflated ego.
To my knowledge, no one here on this thread personally knew Amy Winehouse.
She has left a part of herself living through her music.
As the mother of an ex-servicecman, and the ex-wife of an ex-serviceman, I know that both only joined to further their careers.
Neither are political, because if they were, they wouldn't have joined.
Back in the first and second World Wars, people didn't really have a choice, they were subscripted.
So a whole lot of those who died for us,supposedly, didn't die for us at all.
They died because our governments put them in that situation.
Let's cut the crap, if we are talking about why servicemen die.
Are you aware that during World War I and II, any servicemen that questioned the need to be at war, were shot, by personnel from their own country?
Having intelligence, or your own mind, is not what successive governments want. They want people to be like sheep, to follow the leader, to be manipulated...
Nothing has changed. How many years have we blindly accepted the IMF and World Bank, blindly assuming they know best?
Open your eyes. Stay away from TV for a little while....you are being manipulated.
Many of the Australian kids who fought in the two world wars were conscripted, same for the Vietnam war, everyone of a certain age had to go if their name came out of the barrel.
It took a politician who organised street marches to get out of there many years and lives later of course!
It was his actions that motivated me to run for the senate some years later.
Amy was a massive talent known by all generations in my household as a great artist.
So sorry she died.
I'm struggling to understand myself why her death has affected me so much. I didn't even know all of her songs. I'd never heard Back to Black, though I do read tonight that her album of that name has reached #1 in the UK charts. I have listened a lot to her videos on youtube in the past few days. I realise her talent.But there is something more here I am not quite understanding. I mean she wasn't John Lennon, but I have a feeling I will remember her death as well as I remembered his.
I think she had some other quality that is maybe a bit hard to pin down. I don't know what it is, but I did notice how I felt about her, and wonder what that certain something means to me.
Her music touches me in the same way as Billie Holiday's and Janis Joplin's do. I don't know why they do so much. Maybe because all of them suffered in one way or the other.
Just listening to Janis on the radio. I wonder if it is the same thing about them all that strikes me somewhere in my backbone and the back of my neck.
It's the same for the others in the '27 club' as well. If you listen to their lyrics, they touch a deep sorrowful place from within, that may actually be their gift to others. As much as some want to slam them for having been addicts, they were able to say what they felt needed to be 'said'. No one I've met or known has lived a perfect life without blemish. And I'm certain I'll never meet one.
I appreciate your mentioning the brave Marines who gave their lives this past week. I knew, before I got to the end of your comments that you were heading toward that, and was quite pleased to know you did what I expected.
Amy Winehouse was an alcoholic drug user who refused to allow rehabilitation to help her. She was a face, but I'd rather hear those names and honor them for what they have REALLY given us. Their very blood, to move us to feel stronger about what it is they sacrificed themselves for.
Real suffering comes from those who persevere rather than end it all. Those who put on their dirty boots, their heavy vests and their bullet proof helmets, grab their packs that are much too heavy and the rifles to protect us all. They suffer the loss of their family and friends, they suffer the loss of real freedom. Marines are not free as citizens are. They have no choice but to go into battle, guns blazing, and pray that they can live to see another day.
Semper Fi' to my brave young brothers, from an old Marine to the young ones who will never again see those they love the most, or the land that they protected so well.
Hwy - don't pick on Mark!
He made a comment that many of us agree on.
Marines, air force, soldiers, in this instance does it make a difference? They are all military. They have no choice. they are sent where they are sent.
Hey Kate I sincerely hope you have not lost a child here. If you have - big hugs, girl - that is all we can do, hug each other and hope that future governments don't make us go through the loss of loved ones again.
I was quite fortunate, IzzyM, that all my children who went to war came back physically unharmed.
One has PTSD though, from seeing her 1st SGT vaporized, from being shot at by the Army "friendly fire" and from her 3 confirmed kills. She ran for cover from mortar attacks about every 3 days and had to take down disrespectful natives who would not follow the rules. She saw a Corporal shoot a child who would not stop while running toward him with a box... The box turned out to have cookies in it.
I think that there are too many stories much worse than the ones I've briefly mentioned here, but the real picture of what our boys and girls are doing over there will never be told. All we will know is that someone someplace believes that the service men and women are killing babies, and raping women, and doing all the terrible things that propaganda likes to spew so readily.
Hate the war, don't hate the warriors.
This is a ridiculous post. Where have you seen those allegations of the troops on this thread? You haven't. In fact, everyone on here seems to have sympathy for the troops and wish the very best for them, and pray they are not put in danger for absurd or cynical reasons. You don't care what the reasons are.
You are a victim.
They have a choice not to enlist. Isn't it a bit scary that people enlist in the military and their lives are in the hands of a few politicians? That's terrifying. When was the last time a politician had your rights in his/her agenda?
Wait a second...this is very interesting. You don't care if people willingly sign up to lose their lives...just as long as they do it for the Wars you want them to go to. If we had fought in Rwanda, Darfur, or Bosnia...that would have taken even more young volunteers to go off and fight. Young ones that you don't care about...but obviously want them to continue to join in Wars for you...that you would seem to justify.
How interesting. It is kind'a like you get to pick and choose which Wars are fit to fight in and which ones aren't.
I asked why? No one seems to be able to answer that question. I didn't say I supported going to those places either. I would like for someone to help me differentiate why an Iraqi is more important to the U.S. than a Rwandan or Bosnian. I would like to understand why so many people are willing to sign up to fight in wars that only a few politicians deem important. Why would anyone put their lives or their children's lives in the hands of today's politicians? That seems irresponsible to me on a local and global level.
I do care about people who willingly sign up to die because it saddens me that most of them are misinformed and their patriotism is misguided.
Approximately 70,000 people die every single day. Why should one disgusting, drug addicted, human being get any more attention than any of those other 69,999 people? Amy Winehouse is dead. Great. We lost a drug addict. The world is a better place. Celebrate.
Your mother never took you to see Bambi then?
It blows my mind that this sort of thinking exists today. The sort of thinking that says a person is only worth something if we think they made good of their life--if they contribute to society. Otherwise they are expendable? Who are we to qualify and measure the value of human life? Who are you to say who is worthy of life and who would do well to just die?
That is arrogance of the most dangerous and disgusting kind.
emichael, I ditto every word you just typed. The arrogance of this dude, blows my mind.
So you're practically saying that the way a person lives and what he or she does with his or her life should have no impact on how valuable their life is? So you're practically saying that Mother Teresa and Charles Manson should be treated with equal respect and value. People like her are expendable. I'm glad she's dead. As a matter of fact, people like you and Mr. I got my mind blown over here are as well. It's because of idiots like you that the world is such a disgusting place. Apparently, all of a sudden, everyone is preaching love and happiness and equality. No one would've dared say crap like this a few years ago. Only because you see something on the media, all you morons get brainwashed. The nerve on you pricks. Do the rest of the world a favor and go join Amy Winehouse.
And I call it crap, because none of you pro lifers, lovable characters believe in what you preach. All you do is talk out of your asses.
Powerfully hateful and venal post. Should those that disagree with you wish for your death?
According to ABC News, Amy died from a withdrawal from alcohol. She was trying to clean up too quickly. She was trying to fight back.
You may have picked a very poor scapegoat for your misguided and hateful ideas.
Everyone does deep inside. Only a few have enough balls to speak their heart.
As a matter of fact, I didn't know that particular part. However, she brought herself to that point. It was her fault and her fault only. Fight back what? Her damned self?
You know what, arguing with you people over a computer screen is useless. If you really feel like helping the world, preaching love and being a savior of humanity, get the f*%k off HubPages, and open a charity fund.
If you feel that way, leave Hubpages.
There is no greater adversary in any persons life than their selves.
You make so many wonderful and well articulated points, klevifusha. Please allow me to address them one at a time:
1) "So you're practically saying that the way a person lives and what he or she does with his or her life should have no impact on how valuable their life is?"
That is exactly what I am saying.
2) "So you're practically saying that Mother Teresa and Charles Manson should be treated with equal respect and value."
Equal respect? No. Equal value? Absolutely
3) "As a matter of fact, people like you and Mr. I got my mind blown over here are as well."
I'm worthless and expendable because I am of the opinion that there is value in every human life no matter how wayward it might be? Wow. It appears your qualifications are more stringent than I thought.
4) "It's because of idiots like you that the world is such a disgusting place."
I would so love an elaboration on this point.
5) "Apparently, all of a sudden, everyone is preaching love and happiness and equality."
All of a sudden? If by all of a sudden you mean since the beginning of recorded history, then sure. I guess so.
6) "The nerve on you pricks. Do the rest of the world a favor and go join Amy Winehouse."
I will one day. So will you. Until then I prefer to see value in human life. The alternative, as you have so wonderfully illustrated, is a hateful, scornful, and miserable existence.
You know, there were so many awesome ads I saw on a newspaper today about people looking for roommates. Whenever you feel like leaving your mom's basement, look it up.
You are painting yourself as a man without an argument.
Grow up and come to the table with a position and defend it. You are like a kid on a middle school playground.
Kind of you. I am happily independent, though I'm not sure what bearing this has on the current discussion. If you're bored with it feel free to say so and we can stop wasting each other's time. Otherwise feel free to construct an intelligible response anytime you feel ready.
Are you guys gonna suck each other off later? Sounds like a party
By the way, an intelligible response formulated against your own, would simply be a waste of time. You have obviously formed your own firm opinion and the only reason you would read my response, would be to find a way to disprove it. Therefore, it's pointless. We both believe in different things. That's the way it's going to be. It's not going to change anytime soon. You believe in defending drug addicts and useless parasites of society, while I believe respect and social value should be earned.
The particular useless person that we are discussing was a one-woman industry, providing a living for hundreds of people -- roadies, record company personnel, hotels, caterers, videographers, radio personalities, venue personnel and so on. She was apparently trying to get herself straightened out. Shall we execute such people? Is that your answer?
Are you a Christian, by any chance? Are you sure you want to cast the first stone?
She was just a lucky drug addicted social parasite. Her one-woman industry happened by chance from a natural born talent, singing. I'm not saying we should execute people like her, but there are way too many people dying out there for us to get all worked up over the death of one singer. The only reason we're here arguing about it is because she is a celebrity. This proves once again the tight grip that mass media has on the population.
And no, sorry to disappoint you, I am far from a Christian. Actually, I am not religious at all.
The only reason we're arguing about it is because it was made known by the media and you posted an inflammatory comment. If you and I were walking down the street and you say a drug addict die of an overdose and made the same comment we would be having the same exact discussion. The principals are still the same. You say they have no value, I say they do. Media and it's "grip" on the population has nothing to do with it.
How was she a parasite? She provided a service that the public clamored for, and reaped the benefits.
Not disappointed that you're not a Christian at all. At least your not a hypocrite on top of being a childish hatemonger.
Point of order and relevance. All of those other people that are dying out there represent individual humans with their own distinct characteristics and problems, just like Amy.
Sorry that's not going to happen. But if that's your idea of a party, I won't judge you I promise.
"You have obviously formed your own firm opinion and the only reason you would read my response, would be to find a way to disprove it."
Um...yes...I have a firm opinion. As do you. I'm not sure what you are arguing here.
"We both believe in different things. That's the way it's going to be. It's not going to change anytime soon."
Agreed. And I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is you making inane comments that have no relevance to the conversation. I'm perfectly content to not change your mind. But I do enjoy a good debate. I just prefer mine with a little intelligence. Even just a little.
"You believe in defending drug addicts and useless parasites of society, while I believe respect and social value should be earned."
I believe in their value as HUMANS. And also giving them a chance for redemption. Crazy, I know.
Why would you value such HUMANS? Why would you value the lives of people who have complete disregard for their own lives?
Because they are human...
It is not up to my to judge why people become addicted to drugs or alcohol or hundreds of other things. Humans are not perfect. And I don't believe addicts don't care about their lives.
In the military I am sure you will be exposed to all types of humans, not all will be perfect.
As opposed to you who has no regard for others lives?
Uninvited Writer, I know we're not perfect. But would you still consider them "human" if the subject was a mass murderer? Would you still have the same sympathy? Very doubtful, so "they are human" quickly falls out of play. All I'm saying is, Amy Winehouse didn't do anything positive enough to deserve this type of sympathy and attention from people.
And, thebrucebeat, I do have regard for other lives, just not the same ones as you. Do you want to talk about a tragic musical loss for humanity? Do you want to talk about people who deserve attention and sympathy? Bob Marley, now that's a tragedy.
I agree about Marley.
Wasn't he a drug addict too?
Actually she has left the world with some amazing music that will be around forever. I consider that very positive.
Marley consumed Marijuana, which I personally believe is far safer than many legal drugs, including alcohol and nicotine. He died from skin cancer. His drug consumption never interfered with his life. He was never checked into a rehabilitation center.
He died of a brain tumor. And I agree...he could not really be classified as an addict.
Addiction is only discovered when one tries to refrain from the activity. Everything is a recreational choice if you have control of it. Marley never did.
This is a drug we all have a kinder opinion of, but it is still a drug, and the irony of him being singled out as the anti-Amy is hilarious to me.
So like Amy, he never acknowledged that he had a dependency on an illegal drug.
http://worldmusic.about.com/od/genres/f … yDeath.htm Actually, it was a type of skin cancer which began from an injury in his toe.
He didn't acknowledge it because Marijuana is not actually a drug, in the traditional meaning of the word. Illegal, yes, for reasons we will never know. However, not a single recorded death due to the direct effects of Marijuana consumption has ever been documented. http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/30
Of course it's a drug, and Marley enjoyed and even respected the alterations that drug made to his perceptions.
I loved it, too, but it took a heart attack to get me to quit. I LOVED the stuff, and that love controlled me for years.
Marley was dependent on weed, unable to pursue his pacifist agenda without it. I understand. I still wish it was part of my life. But I can tell you without question one can become dependent on it.
A life is worthy because they exist!
What a bunch of bs I hear being spouted here.
klevifusha your views are very egocentric,and border on offensive.
What gives you or anyone the right to decide whose life is more worthy or not?
Is it based on their achievements ? contribution to mankind perhaps?
Exceptional talents? Stunning beauty?
Hmm..using that reasoning ,a good percantage of the human race can just drop dead right now then .
Because I don't believe humans are meant to be the judges of their own worth and value. It is entirely too subjective a concept. Hitler felt he knew the measure the human worth and decided Jews, the elderly, invalids, etc. were not worthy members of society. You know the rest of the story.
There is a fundamental difference in our worldviews, I suppose. As you say, irrevocable. I can abide that. But yours is just so hateful and dangerously reminiscent of the type of thinking that has caused so much calamity throughout history.
My worldview is not hateful. The complete opposite as a matter of fact. If you sat down and had a face to face conversation with me, perhaps you would understand. My type of thinking is only logical. Amy Winehouse was not someone who deserved so much love and sympathy from people. You know what saddens me? Only if people put this much effort towards feeding the hungry, putting a roof over the head of the homeless and showing love to every child who's living in an orphanage, imagine what a wonderful planet we'd be living in.
I agree...people do need to care about each other a lot more. I see that lack of care in current US politics. But saying all addicts are worthless does not fit with that.
So why have you singled her out as being worthy of death? How has she made any worse decisions than many of the homeless who suffer from the same affliction?
Because she had the power to make a difference. She chose to lead that lifestyle.
As far as your first comment...one of the most hateful things I have ever heard directed toward me came from you just over an hour ago. Allow me to refresh your memory:
"People like her are expendable. I'm glad she's dead. As a matter of fact, people like you and Mr. I got my mind blown over here are as well. It's because of idiots like you that the world is such a disgusting place."
And in case that wasn't enough:
"The nerve on you pricks. Do the rest of the world a favor and go join Amy Winehouse."
On to your second comment:
"Only if people put this much effort towards feeding the hungry, putting a roof over the head of the homeless and showing love to every child who's living in an orphanage, imagine what a wonderful planet we'd be living in."
Now THAT is something I can get behind. People have such misplaced priorities. I agree that these things are tragedies and that all of us have a responsibility to do what we can to make them right. But MY reason for believing such is that I see value in EVERY human life. Druggies, whores, child abusers, murderers, bums, orphans, the check out girl at the grocery store, you. The list goes on and on. Stop picking and choosing who deserves love and who deserves a second chance.
More childish and unresponsive. You have displayed what your intellect can bring to the table. You're done.
Does this nastiness play where you live? Are there others that choose invective over argument there? (Oh, sorry. Look it up.)
FYI, addiction is a treatable disease, more so than hatrred, prejudice and ignorance.
This is a really dumb thread. There's no need to choose between mourning/respecting Amy Winehouse and mourning/respecting our armed forces for people who can walk and chew gum at the same time. Why anyone would want to dump on a talented singer like Amy Winehouse is beyond me. We can thank myopicvision for the ridiculous premise of this thread.
The young lady is dead now. It doesn't mater how she died or why. She is another human being and had problems like we all have. I think we should respect the dead and let her rest inpeace.
I would not call this a "dumb thread." What I would say is that while Amy Winehouse may have been talented, she did not care enough about herself to remain sober. She was in the process of adopting a child. Can you imagine? People can morn who and what they want to. However, as horrible as this sounds Amy made her bed all by herself. She has had her mention in the papers. What about the soldiers? Do they not deserve a mention AS WELL?
This turned into quite an interesting discussion. Please go to my page and read my latest hub concerning some of the above mentioned topics. I welcome all comments and discussion.
Someone is working hard to get banned from the forums.
"She was just a lucky drug addicted social parasite"
Lol. Amateur trolling at best my friend. At least put a bit of effort in.
Meanwhile, back on the subject of my 100 score. I realise I am also a lucky parasite and I plan to take copious amounts of drugs to celebrate.
Amy and the average US marine have a lot in common. Born poor, few choices, exploited mercilessly for the benefit of others. At least Amy wasn't obliged to kill other people as part of her trade.
This argument that the military creates jobs for the poor is completely ludicrous.
Without the government stealing money from people, there wouldn't be a needless and flagrant incentive for people to pick up guns and march to foreign lands to kill people who have never hurt us in any way, shape, or form. (9/11 was Blowback from us bombing the middle east for 50 years. Even the CIA agrees)
The government artificially creates massive incentives for completely unnecessary activity and drains jobs away from more productive sectors of the economy.
People look around and say "oh, thank goodness the military is here to hire all the poor! Without them, there'd be nothing!", but they fail to see what WOULD exist had the military not stolen the wealth in the first place.
If you take money from Rob to give Jane a gun to go kill Muhammad, then you SEE Jane killing Muhammad thanks to Rob.
What you DON'T SEE is the money Rob would have given Jane to fix his car if he had still had it. Also, you don't see that Muhammad would still be alive.
This entire "the military creates jobs for the poor" argument is COMPLETE nonsense. It was disproven Some 200 years ago when Frederic Bastiat explained clearly why the French troops coming home from war in the 1840s would NOT lead to a depression.
Please read his essay:
Another great read is "Economics in One Lesson", which shows clearly that government can not create wealth:
Once again: The military does not create jobs for the poor, it merely reshuffles the jobs into less productive areas. Always remember if a child breaks a window, the economy is poorer.
John Donne: "No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as a manor of thy friends or of thine
own were; any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
It appears to me that's not quite what is being said here. I am sad when I see that someone has died, even if I never knew them. Think for a moment though, about death, how it is what it is - don't blame the reality of it. I never knew any of these people but I can still appreciate that they lived.
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