I'm just curious to see what you think about the title.
My understanding is that it will happen within the next 2-5 years. At which time, things will change dramatically versus things today.
More people will be poorer than poverty level now.
More people will be unemployed.
More people will be committing suicide.
More people will be homeless compared to now.
This is what I see coming in America.
What do you see?
to clarify- America fall- means that our system of government will be shattered and need to be rebuilt from ground up.
I don't think it will happen. America has been through more difficult times than these.
Unless... unless the government doesn't get spending under control. If they can't do that, then we will end up defaulting or going into hyper-inflation probably within 10-20 years.
I also accept the possibility that the president is just a puppet anyway and we are being manipulated so that we can slowly have our freedoms taken away... in that case I'd say 5-10 years.
Yes, you are correct, there are super wealthy "king makers" out there manipulating the politicans, the markets, the media, and public opinion, the purpose being to take away our freedom and our rights.
I would agree. I wrote why World Peace is nothing more than a scam perpetuated by politicians and others.
The UN is nothing more than the begining of a one world government. The UN will become the worlds governing body soon. Even sooner if we give them complete control over the oceans.
I am not presently worried about the UN or even the possibility of a One World Governing body. Right now, I am more worried about America and foolish actions of politicians on behalf of the wealthiest of the world.
And, I would go as far as to say the politicians are nothing more than puppets.
Just look at my comment below. It seems we both know this little known fact.
Consider that our current economic troubles were done purposely. Those in power know that a one world government would not be accepted in the U.S. unless things are so bad the population begs for it.
“"Today Americans would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will pledge with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their world government."
- Henry Kissinger in an address to the Bilderberger meeting at Evian, France, May 21, 1992.
America is much farther toward the end than most would like to think about. There is little left except the trust of the people and the dependence of the world. As great as those items may be, it will not be enough if we do not amend our ways as a nation very soon. America cannot tolerate another four years of Barack Obama and a Congresss which cannot establish a budget or gain control of deficit spending. As great as the task might seem, those who have addressed it to this point should resign in shame including the President. Nothing can help this nation until we quell our spending and begin to live within our means. The sad side of that equation is that it will soon become very apparent how things such as Social Security and Medicate have been so grossly mismanged over time. That mismanagement in the private sector would send people to jail but in the the public service no one is accountable because our intent was, "to do good". As irresponsible as our elected officials have been, all that has been offset by a more than apathetic public who have entrusted their future to fools and allowed it all to happen. When the final crash comes, the ones who have been most vocal in defending the action of idiots will be among the first to cry for someone's head. This is what a seemingly intelligent nation of people has come to on their journey of 200 plus years. WB
Thank you Wayne.
So, do you have an estimated time frame? Just curious.
The time frame depends on what happens in November. Either way I think your estimation is correct - between 2 and 5 sounds about right; a lot to "look forward to"...
Actually, what happens in November isn't going to slow down or fix the problem. It is obvious that neither Obama or Romney have any clue. At this point, they are both idiots. And, I'm not a Ron Paul supporter, so it leaves no candidate worthy of office. That's pretty sad.
Romney has proven he isn't for equality or equal rights.
Obama has stripped citizens rights since being in office.
Ron Paul wants to eliminate Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare and force others to pick up the slack(use revenue to support the programs). Others would be Charitable organizations and non-profit help companies. These organizations and many non-profits already don't live up to the regulations governing them. Not by a long shot.
So much for the selection of Candidates. All I have to say is YUCK!
But, it was nice to see you. It's been a while. Hope you're well.
I read a lot of Dimitri Orlov and John Michael Greer. Both have very lucid and factual discussions of societal collapse.
I'm with Greer in the belief that there won't be a huge fall, instead more like a series of downward slides with plateaus in between them. At each plateau there will be the chance to actually take beneficial action that could lessen the harshness of the slides, but based on historic evidence, it's more than likely that people will deny what is happening or take action that will stall inevitable changes in the moment, thus making future changes more harsh.
Depends on who wins the next election.
Well, predicting the fall of the American government is like predicting end of civilization. As real as it may seem, many a times its just a good mix of paranoia with pessimism. Plus, things are starting to look up now. As long as nobody in europe goes bankrupt again, in 2-5 years time, everything should still be safe and sound. In another 8 to 10 years? That would be hard to say.
I honestly think that would be good and bad. Good because it's necessary, bad because of all the people who will be negatively affected in the short term. But everything in a high place gets knocked down eventually. It's the circle of life, it's the nature of societies. Maybe it'll cause America to do some important self-reflection. Hopefully.
The first thing to remember is that we have been going down the rabbit hole for a very long time.
This isn't a Bush thing or an Obama thing, although both have made it worse.
Every administration along with the House and Senate have cooked the books going back for more than 70 years and the country has sunk with each new trick. The only change has been the speed at which we are sinking.
LBJ was the one who created the scam of transfering all the funds from Social Security into the General fund as an example. The "basket of goods" used to calculate inflation was altered so that no name brands were tracked and everything became generic. At one time salmon was used as the fish price indicator later to be replaced by any fish. The cost of utilities and fuel were removed. Things were revalued based on the idea that if your new TV that has better technology the price hasn't changed even if it cost $150 more for the same size. And so on, and so on. The Clinton surplus was never a surplus. You can only have a surplus if you have paid off every debt and have money left in the bank,,, never happened and the virtual spaghetti of convoluted twisting of things to make it look like a surplus is understood by very few.
Our tax code weighs in at roughly 7 times the length of all of the versions of the Bible combined, all written by lawyers for the most part to shield the wealthy.
The biggest problem is that the average voter hasn't a clue and the media is just as corrupt as the government.
The only thing that is keeping the US afloat is the fact that the entire world is in equally leaky craft. The Euro is going to fail and the yuan, while stronger, is headed for problems as well.
When will it all hit the fan? I've been predicting it since I was in high school and I graduated in 72. I believe it will be sooner rather than later and 5 years is my prediction.
What will it take to save things?
Scrap the entire IRS and tax code and go to something like a straight sales tax, probably 12% with a 3/4 majority vote to increase it in any way. Then everyone pays no matter who they are whether they are the uber-rich or the illegal alien getting paid under the table.
Cut the military and all defense spending by 60% absolute minimum better 70%. Close every base that isn't on US soil and restrict our military to our own territorial regions.
Get out of NATO, the UN and the IMF and expel the Feral Reserve from our banking and monetary system.
Legalize victimless crimes such as drug use and prostitution and shut down the "war on drugs" and the leeching prison industry.
So that is day 1.
Back 70 years huh?
I suggest you track it yourself and not take other people's word for it. I can track politicians inability to handle the Economy back to the when it was first created, and government began measuring growth.
The fact that politicians refuse to handle the Economy properly is one reason for why it's not an equal playing field for all businesses, small-medium-large.
you can't fall when you are already on the ground.
As an optimist, the pessimism in this thread is making me break out in hives.
Hey Shanna, believe it or not, I'm being an optimist in my assessment.
2-5 years? Maybe I'm being naive, but I just don't see how that's possible.
That was the reply I expect from many. But, thank you.
Wait, I'm curious though-- why do you predict that time frame? What do you see happening that will cause the poverty, homelessness, suicide on such a large scale?
I'm waiting for one link in America to snap. Presently, it's only a matter of time and from what I gather 2-5 years is all the time that is left before it snaps.
When it(that link snaps) does, the chain-reaction is going to do what I said it would.
Can we be privileged to know w?hat that link is
I'm pretty sure you're smart enough to figure it out on your own. And, no I am not saying what "link" I think is going to snap. But, having said I've already gone out on the limb with my 2-5 year prediction and have no need or desire to get any further into it.
Pessimism is for happy people
Shanna, a little curious(you don't need to answer if you don't want to), do you think that things are lining up for the 'end times' according to LDS scripture?
It seems like things regarding Israel keep getting heated up more and more.
Most LDS people think we're getting close, but as per the Bible, no one knows the exact date. We're not necessarily in the "end times" just yet, I think we still have a little while longer ahead of us, but I speak for no one but myself.
I think we are at bottom, problem is how do we climb up. I have said before something we should consider, the economy revenues may not get much better, we may have topped out. The largest revenues collected were 2.6 trillion and that occurred under Bush. So if that is the most revenues we will collect, where do we go?
Wow. That's a bold prediction.
Gives me just enough time (hopefully) to sell the house and move to Costa Rica. They have free healthcare there.
Getting spending under control is great if your talking about stopping sending money out of our country as long as we have serious problems here in the United States.
One in Five Americans are Hungry.
The Fastest Growing Part Of The Population Is Women And Children.
Whole Cities In The American South Are Ghost Towns Because Of NAFTA and the jobs being sent overseas.
15,000 Homeless People Live On The Streets Of New Orleans And Another 300,000 People Can't Come Home Because They Have No Home To Come Home To.
Many people would have told you Russia would never break up but it did.
And I think America may well break up into several countries.
Thank you Crazyhorsesghost for your input.
Do you have a time frame? Again, just curious.
Maybe this is our chance for the South to break away and do it right this time. I will do my part to lead the way for the south to be an example of enlightenment to all.
“It is when we are trapped in incessant streams of compulsive thinking that the universe really disintegrates for us, and we lose the ability to sense the interconnectedness of all that exists.” ― Eckhart Tolle
“You can only lose something that you have, but you cannot lose something that you are.” ― Eckhart Tolle
“A significant portion of the earth's population will soon recognize, if they haven't already done so, that humanity is now faced with a stark choice: Evolve or die.” ― Eckhart Tolle
Once the world drops the dollar as their reserve currency, its all downhill from there!
Much sooner then most people are ready to accept.
India Buying Iran's Oil In Gold & Drops Dollar - China Considering Same Deal
Why the Dollar's Reign Is Near an End
For decades the dollar has served as the world's main reserve currency, but, argues Barry Eichengreen, it will soon have to share that role. Here's why—and what it will mean for international markets and companies.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 … 13248.html
Hey Reality, thank you for the links. Do you happen to have a time frame? Just curious, as I am with others thoughts on it too.
It is impossible to erase debt when borrowing is needed just to cover the interest payments. Any entity in this situation should already be considered insolvent.
As many nations are conducting transactions outside the realm of the dollar, I would say we are currently in serious trouble. I hope we can make it another 2 years.
I would like to see the fifty sovereign states secede from the Federal government. This entity does not operate for the benefit of the people and is extremely treasonous on many levels. It will be a difficult period in history but perhaps we could form a more benevolent government.
"If there's a new way
I'll be the first in line
But,it better work this time!"
The movie ran through me
The glamour subdue me
The tabloid untie me
I'm empty please fill me
Mister anchor assure me
That Baghdad is burning
Your voice it is so soothing
That cunning mantra of killing
I need you my witness
To dress this up so bloodless
To numb me and purge me now
Of thoughts of blaming you
Yes the car is our wheelchair
My witness your coughing
Oily silence mocks the legless
Ones who travel now in coffins
On the corner
The jury's sleepless
We found your weakness
And it's right outside our door
Wow. I pretty much agree with that. Maybe it's because our country has drifted too much from our founding father's mission; freedom for all. Or maybe we have helped change the system beyond day repair. So much to think about. I guess that we will just wait and see for the current moment
So, your time frame is on the shorter end of my time frame, which is 2-5 years. Good to know and thank you again.
I'm not sure. Only beacuse of the uncertainty I feel towards the current candidates and possible future ones. Even though the president position doesn't have much say in what happens, they can still set the mood and have a large amount of followers in congress ready to swing the vote. Maybe we will get lucky and have a good election next time but unless this happens I believe America will fall and need restructuring very soon.
I would expect something to happen in the next 4 -8 years. We cant go on much longer like it is. The working man is pushed to his limit in taxes, and hours he can work. There is way to much money tied up in wall street, and wall street is nothing but an elaborate casino, so all that money provides no legitimate service to the greater good. The big corporations control our government and they care nothing for the common people, only how much money they can make and how much more they can take from us.
4 – 8 years is my time line before we see a serious meltdown, I wish it would happen sooner, the sooner we hit bottom, the sooner we will see something done, as long as we are treading water like we are, nothing will be done.
I wish I could say that I disagree with you and didn't foresee a fall happening anytime soon, but 2-5 years may be optimistic judging by what has already been occurring. As long as our leaders think they can just keep borrowing from us and digging the hole deeper, we're in an increasing downward spiral. They need to let the chips fall where they may instead of continually robbing Peter to pay Paul. If they would stop trying to get their hands in the middle of everything and let what happens happen, it would certainly be a relief. Maybe there would be less people on the street corners looking for a free handout and more folks learning through the school of hard knocks how to take responsibility into their own hands for their destiny. A little hard work and elbow grease doesn't hurt and can do a lot of good towards building one's character in a positive way. We are more than capable of recovering if they will stop enabling those who are irresponsible from continuing to rob those who have anything of their prosperity. Sorry, this struck a cord with me and I am on my soapbox!
I don't think America will fall within the next five years. EU is not in good standing and China's growth is slowing down. Every country is affected by what the others are experiencing. This is in economic terms. I strongly believe that dominance in culture is held by a country whose economic power also thrives on its military capabilities. America is strong on that aspect.
America's system of governance is not necessarily going to fail. The American government as currently constituted -- in terms of the size and scope of what it currently does and the means by which it funds its activities -- cannot last much longer, and will have to be drastically changed out of sheer necessity in the next 15 years if we are to survive as a nation. Whatever your political stripes, running annual deficits that are 60%-70% out of balance with what you have the tax base to support and that are 1/9 the size of your total annual GDP is completely unsustainable. People are going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the changes that need to be made, and there is likely to be Greece-style violence on a much larger scale before it gets done, but the United States will never become a failed state in the foreseeable future.
The previous administration started with a budget surplus and converted that into a huge deficit with a ground war on two fronts for OVER TEN YEARS.
America's involvement in WWII didn't last half that long. If it had, it would've resulted in analogous deficits to what we have now.
Once we have pulled out of Afghanistan, assuming we are not embroiled in another expensive land war, we should be able to put our financial house in order... Assuming the government has the will to reduce military spending back to what it was before we were fighting a war on two fronts. it's only been ten years since Clinton's surplus, remember? It's not impossible to reverse the damage.
Honestly, I don't understand all this alarmism. America has been through more difficult periods. The recovery is sluggish, and events in Europe are causing jitters in the stock market, but if Europe staggers when we're adding jobs at home, it's not a one-way road to ruin for us.
The Roman Empire stumbled and bumbled its way along for a while. Barring extraordinary events such as climate shifts wiping out most of the water supply to the American Southwest, we'll be fine.
Really we all need to stop this 'doom and gloom' talk and concentrate on changing things for the better.
These two videos are very humorous and informative bipartisan look at just how bad the toxic political environment and governmental dysfunction has gotten . . .
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-j … share_copy
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-j … share_copy
I really depends on the next presidential election. If nothing changes, we can see the end as we know it within 18 months. Look to Greece and Europe, if you want to see our present destination. The ignorance and lack of sacrifice has always been our downfall. Stop expecting life to be given to you. What have you done to make this world better? I know I went off on a tangent, but I am mad that this is the state of world that was left to me. There is yet hope.
Talk such the 'fall of America' is just 'big' talk. The United States will fade gently into a new position as a second world power along with the United States of Europe, it will have to reduce its armed forces from the hugely aggressive size it is now to a more affordable force that is able to 'defend' its territories and so will have to stop bullying the world and making arms billionaires from its administrations.
The noise we are hearing is the normal empty threats and predictions of doom and retribution as the bully slinks back to its own corner of the globe.
When the changes have finished the US will be a better place, along with the rest of the world.
Hey Recommend, welcome back to the forums. Nice to see you. Interesting response.
Thanks for the Hi - this is interesting thread:)
The world may be in a better place, but we are yet to see. No doubt we need to reign in much when it comes to our United States. These are interesting times. Will you be there to unite, and rebuild? I'm ready, and looking forward to riding out this storm...whenever it comes. No doom and gloom, just tending to my flock in hard times.
Money trades hands between the rich for all time, you just live your life the best you can.
This "clock" is interesting:
It shows that the US still isn't in as much trouble as the "basket cases" of Europe, but it's certainly not one of the best, either.
The real question, if you ask me, is how long the entire world can go on operating with a global economy that's essentially one big Ponzi scheme.
The Global Economy is one huge Ponzi scheme? WOW! Interesting thought.
The whole system runs on debt, Inernational currency exchange is operated through the debt market which is in effect mortgaging the country, not the wealth of individuals - just the country.
Hey Recommend, I wasn't aware other nations were also debt based. I know America is most definitely. Government cannot operate without borrowing money first.
I am not currently reviewing things outside of the US. My main focus is on America.
Debt based does not mean that the country is necessarily in debt - China recently started the process to make the Yuan a Universally traded currency and has already accomplished this among the ASEAN countries - which are the biggest free trade grouping in the world, way beyond Europe. Apparently to be able to do this China has to have govenment debt that can be bought by other countries, or government bonds I guess, that mature at a percentage profit. Then other countries can hold bonds or securities in your country that can be traded outside in order to 'secure' the exchanged money.
China started this process and sold most of it to Japan in the first instance, setting up currency exchange between them is what this is aimed at. This is also happening with the Middle East, Africa etc and could be the beginning of the end for the dollar.
Countries moving to appreciating debt from China and dumping depreciating dollar debt will be the cause of any fall or collapse (actually adjustment), not public opinion or end of the world stuff, just the halving value of the dollar and the inability to pay its correspondingly doubled in value debts in the world. This is also the root cause of the US escaping from the mess it has made in the middle east and changing its focus to Asia so that it can threaten Chinese trade routes and use aggression as a bargaining tool to stave off the inevitable for a while.
To focus on America is to be short sighted, your politicians are your rich - and they have sold you down the river and their money is free to be in any currency they need it be, invested in any other country they choose, and they are in the final stages of pirating around the world to get the last dime from the system.
It's not short sighted. My goal isn't to fix the world, but the affects and effects, that might stem from my work in America, could be felt around the world.
It would be short sighted if I thought it would fix everything, because it won't.
I am a U.S. citizen, just as I am a citizen of humanity. I'd rather get order in the house known as America. I rather it truly be a lead by example Nation. Instead of the bully tactics used in the past.
I was not suggesting that you are short sighted - but that it is short sighted to think that the changes are driven from within when they are driven from outside. You are talking about responses to change, I was talking about the pressure for that change.
The real issue on American's decline was reported by PEW: Hatred is a family value. You can hate me for saying it!
Stick a fork in:
I just do not see that anyone here understands the historical reality: The rich get richer until the system collapses. This makes the question: how much more downsizing can the American middleclass handle until this turns into a banana republic?
If you think your wealth is going up, you're crazy. In general, only rich people have gotten richer these last 30 years. End times for an empire is when the wealthy want all the money and take it. America is at that point.
So, if you're saying 5 years, you're saying that in 5 years all elections will be bought by billionaires like the one in Wisconsin yesterday. The money was 30-1 in favor of the incumbent. It will go about 3-1 in favor of Romney, and--there ya have it! A bought election makes the U.S. a banana republic, right? Or is there some other standard?
This is very simple stuff, but you have to get past your hatred (if you're a Republican) or your compulsion to help (if you're a Democrat) and look at the facts.
What kind of cognitive dissonance IS this? The troops have already been sent against the people...the brown and black ones.
After Katrina, Blackwater mercenaries were shooting people execution style---or did you not hear about those cops sentenced to prison for just shooting innocent men?
I do not fear the unknown....I KNOW what these Repugs are all about...and you all should too.
I fear the stupidity of repeating it all over again....only worse.
If legends are correct the beginning of the end will be in Dec. of this year. However I think it will be during the election or closely thereater.
So Cagsil,What would you like to see change? what ideas do you have to make this country a better place?
There's a lot I would love to see change. However, listing all the problems when I don't yet have a solution for all of them, would be foolish, which is why I didn't respond to your first post asking me.
Well, the mentality of the average person has to change. Once that begins, then politicians need to be set as an example of what power the citizens do have within the Nation. Then, the status quo needs to be removed.
The poverty and homeless issues which are brought on by specific events occurring, need to be addressed properly, instead of the half fast methods presently being used.
True equality must reign in order for the Economy to produce true growth consistently, without having the lulls which occur now.
True equal rights must come to be a realizations, so peace among others can be achieved. People not knowing where their individual rights end and other people's rights begin is a huge factor in fixing several social issues.
That's just to start.
I dont expect you to have all the answers, no one is perfect, I agree with your points of change.
I like what you said about poverty, what we are doing now is not working. In my area local churches help more than state institutions.
Interesting what you said about the status quo, I remember pres carter warning america about this. Then reagan came in and told us not to worry about anything. Carter was thought to be one of the worst and reagan one of the best lol.
I would like to see gov regulations in lawsuits in this country and pharmaceutical companies. With no insurance my adhd meds cost 500.00 a month, I have no insurance so I buy it from india for 80.00. and if you sue someone and lose the loser should be responsible for all cost, that would stop a lot of pointless lawsuits.
(a) people's individual understanding of what "equality" actually is.
(b) people's individual understanding of what a "right" actually is.
(c) people's individual understanding of what "equal rights" means.
The above are awareness issues, not social issues. Each is cleared up easily via knowledge(learning).
In America, Racism still exists and it's seen in many different aspects. Racism is the arrogance of ignorance on steroids and the inability to see people equal or sees specific types of people superior than others.
The people who right now live and have no immediate involvement in their community is also an awareness issue, and yet it's also a social issue. The less people involve themselves within their community, the more separated that community will become, until fights and riots begin to break out.
Many people are so wrapped up in the routine of their life, family and friends, that they don't seem to see the damage they are doing. The only thing needed for evil to survive is for good people to do nothing.
If people are unwilling to give to their community because they are struggling to get by themselves, then there's obviously something wrong with the fundamental structure of the Economy.
The problem with the Economy stems from the original inception of America to begin with. I wrote a hub Degeneration of Value and it describes how the politicians have continually used the Economy to manipulate millions upon millions of people for over 200+ years. The actions of politicians and the ineffectiveness of handling the Economy properly has caused a side effects known as poverty and homelessness. Both are tied to the Economy itself.
If politicians did what they are suppose to when handling the Economy, then growth wouldn't be a problem. Equality isn't realized in America because the Economic structure isn't equal.
I believe there will be a world fall - not just the U.S. With all the interdependence between countries, I believe they all will fall like dominoes. I honestly see a world depression on the horizon - I don't know how long it will take, but I don't see it as any individual countries failing but the whole world. I don't know what currency will be valid - perhaps only gold will be accepted and used as currency - I actually seeing us going back to a barter economy.
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