Religion is.....

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maestrowhitposted 14 years ago
Religion is the one thing you can't get rid of by selling.
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  mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The essence of different religions
  
  http://hubpages.com/hub/Religionspoem
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Pestposted 14 years ago
Religion is a written law or view. Opinion made into faux fact served to oppress the people for financial or political gain.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol, religion is a racoon taking a baby kitten hostage with a knife to the throat! LOL, love your avatar.
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  Pestposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol...The kitten wouldn't bow down to my beliefs!
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Mark Knowlesposted 14 years ago
Religion is...... just another political doctrine. With an added kicker. Rewards in the afterlife

Religion is....... responsible for more outrages against humanity than any other political doctrine.

I found a good Christmas wish list which I would like to share :

If I had the power to produce exactly what I want for next
Christmas, I would have all the kings and emperors resign and allow
the people to govern themselves.

I would have all the nobility crop their titles and give their
lands back to the people. I would have the Pope throw away his
tiara, take off his sacred vestments, and admit that he is not
acting for God — is not infallible — but is just an ordinary
Italian. I would have all the cardinals, archbishops, bishops,
priests and clergymen admit that they know nothing about theology,
nothing about hell or heaven, nothing about the destiny of the
human race, nothing about devils or ghosts, gods or angels. I would
have them tell all their “flocks” to think for themselves, to be
manly men and womanly women, and to do all in their power to
increase the sum of human happiness.

I would have all the professors in colleges, all the teachers
in schools of every kind, including those in Sunday schools, agree
that they would teach only what they know, that they would not palm
off guesses as demonstrated truths.

I would like to see all the politicians changed to statesmen,
– to men who long to make their country great and free, — to men
who care more for public good than private gain — men who long to
be of use.

I would like to see all the editors of papers and magazines
agree to print the truth and nothing but the truth, to avoid all
slander and misrepresentation, and to let the private affairs of
the people alone.

I would like to see drunkenness and prohibition both
abolished.

I would like to see corporal punishment done away with in
every home, in every school, in every asylum, reformatory, and
prison. Cruelty hardens and degrades, kindness reforms and
ennobles.

I would like to see the millionaires unite and form a trust
for the public good.

I would like to see a fair division of profits between capital
and labor, so that the toiler could save enough to mingle a little
June with the December of his life.

I would like to see an international court established in
which to settle disputes between nations, so that armies could be
disbanded and the great navies allowed to rust and rot in perfect
peace.

I would like to see the whole world free — free from
injustice — free from superstition.

This will do for next Christmas. The following Christmas, I
may want more.

Robert Green Ingersoll - “What I Want For Christmas” (1897)

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  shashigaiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i am not sure if this guy was contemporary with the author ortega y gassett, but "the revolt of the masses" is a good treatise on why this idea won't work.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not a big fan of by the people, for the people then? ........
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  shashigaiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i wish i could be, but i have seen it fail so often on a small scale that it scares me to think what might happen on a large scale. the best we can hope for is benevolent despots.
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  Nickny79posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's is true that the best, most efficient gov't would be one run by a benevolent, intelligent despot; however, there is no guarantee that the despot will be either intelligent or benevolent; therefore, freedom-loving peoples having opted for the less efficient republics and democracies with checks and balances to curb the all-too-common malevolence and stupidity of its leaders. The Roman Empire is an excellent example of a totalitarian regime with the occasional benevolent despot. Unfortunately, whatever good was wrought by the occasional benevolent despot was more than undone by the many, unchecked malevolent ones that followed in the intervals.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This all depends on your perspective. The Roman Empire made many great advances and I am sure they used the same arguments you do. You know,
  
  Less government, but more rules to lock up known terrorists
  
  Love your country because you are the best and don't worry about those terrorists that are locked up.
  
  We will protect you from the terrorists, and although we are for less government, this means we need more government, but just for a short while until the terrorist problem is dealt with.
  
  Oh would you look at that, the Communist terrorists are all gone. Wow, a new bunch of Islamic terrorists.
  
  Argue with those socialist nitwits because they want to change the status quo and that means more government and that means you will be at danger from terrorists.
  
  We really do want less government, because we are conservatives and in favor of traditional values. We are trying......
  
  Although to see the rubbish you write - just about everything on the planet seems to be coming from those evil socialists. Are they the next terrorist group?
  
  And if you are looking for a new irrational belief system, I heartily recommend this one -
  
  http://www.venganza.org/
  
  They have a stripper factory and beer volcano in their heaven.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Have you seen Jesus Camp yet? They will be the next terrorist. Oh so sad.
  This movie is creepy at best. They love Bush, worhship a cardboard life sized picture of him, put on war makeup and chant, "war".
  
  Times like that I really wish Jesus was around. OMG! What is worse, they are kids! When I watched the 20/20 documentary about Muslim children and the rubbish they were being taught about the Qua'ran, I almost barfed, but this...this...this is way worse and, um...
  
  Nice pic BTW, you remind me of Shawn Connary. Hope your a fan cause he is smokin for a older dude.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I take that as a compliment. Thank yo. I was a fan until I saw him give an interview and he said he slapped his wife around to keep her in line and all women needed that occasionally. Lost me there I'm afraid.....
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  allshookupposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I saw Jesus Camp. They were NOT worshipping Bush, they were praying for him. As all our leaders need to be prayed for. Listen to the prayers. I, myself, would not have made a cardboard figure of him. But I do think it's great that people pray for world leaders because they all need it. They make decisions that effect us all. We pray for our leaders too, but we don't have a cardboard figure of them. Although I don't see anything wrong with having one, I just don't see it as necessary because we know who we're praying for and so does God. I do not go along with everything in that movie, but things that have been said to the negative about it are far-stretched from the truth. I have no idea where the idea came about them being the next terrorists. That's horrible. Those children were not taught to hate nor dislike anyone. They were taught hate sin. Like the Bible says, you love one and hate the other or you'll hate one and love the other, you cannot serve God and man. That means you love either God or satan. You can't love/serve both. That is all it's about.
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  Zarm Nefilinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  When you teach children to hate peoples' actions then you are teaching children to hate people. There is no way to hate a "sin" and love a "sinner" as the "sin"(action) is part of what makes up the "sinner"(person). A large part of what makes up me is definitely my actions, and if other people are walking around thinking I will roast in hell for all eternity based on my actions then a lot of things become viable means to the end of saving me from this alleged eternal destiny, including torture done in the name of Love. This is what the Inquisition taught, that it was better to be tortured briefly here on this earth and find repentance rather than burn in Hell for all eternity. Their policy reflected that ideology and I think the average Jesus believing Republican has a lot in common with the Inquisition people from the Middle Ages. If Hell is for all eternity there really is no argument one can come up with that would de-legitimize torture of people whose "souls" would otherwise be in danger of eternal damnation had they not been given the chance to convert through loving coercion. In my opinion I think that politically speaking it is only a matter of time before this ""truth" reaches the surface in X-tian spheres once again, and history repeats itself (or human beings attempt to repeat history).
  
  Any comprehensive and honest record of Christianity would include the long history of well meaning and loving sadism that variants of this religion have used in a sincerely misguided attempt to save people's souls from eternal hellfire. Everything from starvation and solitary confinement to chiseling off people's foreheads slowly, day after day, has been used to get people to reject heresy and come to Jesus, whether it was in the Catholic or the Protestant Churches (or even the Orthodox). It's all over the bookpages of history.
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  allshookupposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Then you are saying that Jesus came and died for no reason. And that is not true. God hates sin but loves the sinner. (sinner= every human being on earth) That's why Jesus died for us. If He didn't love us, then He wouldn't have died for us. He loved each one of us enough to give His life for us. To save us from hell. Those children are taught to hate sin. Someone who hates sin tries not to sin. Since they are human, they do sin, but they ask forgiveness for them. Those who it doesn't bother to sin, never ask forgivness and will go to hell. He gives each of us a choice. God loves the sinner but hates sin. I'm sorry you can't understand that. I hope some day you will be able to.
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  Zarm Nefilinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Or, Jesus could have died because he pointed people to the Father whilst never claiming to be "God" and the Pharisees of his day mistook that he claimed to be "God" (as the Christians of today still do), and they had him crucified accordingly?
  
  Could it be he was just an ordinary man with ordinary means and a supernatural message? Could it be that the message he had was construed by the Pharisees to be a challenge to their authority, and that the Pharisees hid behind the false accusation that Jesus had somehow equated himself to "God" when in fact he never did such a thing. Could it be that this accusation was the vehicle that was used to torture try and crucify Jesus in the name of "Public Order"? Could it be that many other men and women in history have willingly died to save their constituency from one thing or another (including prophets)? Could it be that you ever consider the idea that he was just a normal man with normal means, and that is why he pointed people to His Father rather than the deification that Christianity later used to elevate and use a dead prophet's name for their own ends?
  
  Could any of that be?
  
  In your mind, probably not.
  
  It could be that Jesus was born just like every other man, it could be that he died out of love for his followers and not for "no reason". It could be that you have a problem with this notion because it doesn't line up with your dogmatic ways of thinking and threatens your very insecure either/or faith based reasoning. It could be that deep down inside you are just another Christian dishonorably using the mantle, teachings and words of a dead prophet who was cruelly tortured, tried, and executed to further your own end when their nothing in your very own Bible to actually suggest that Jesus ever claimed equality with "God" (even Paul says Jesus didn't claim equality with God). Could it be that you just cannot bear to face the concrete reality that Jesus never once claimed to be anything other than a human prophet sent by God?
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ASU, I know not everyone who is a christian acts like they do in the documentary, but they were worshiping Bush. And if that is not your prespective then chalk it up to us having different eyes of perseption and that is that.
  
  As far as where I got them becoming the next terrorist...war paint? How can they allow little children in a place of worhsip who are supposed to be against any acts of "hate" or "war" or anything negitive for that matter, dress up in war paint, dance around like savage idiots and chant war?
  
  How can they supsept their children to such ridiculous "inner torture" by making them believe that they are born sinners and that there mission is from God to bring peace by means of "the hand" or violence.
  
  Anyways, while we may have different takes on this movie and again I absolutely do not believe that all christians do that sort of thing, that movie is outragous.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ASU, I know not everyone who is a christian acts like they do in the documentary, but they were worshiping Bush. And if that is not your prespective then chalk it up to us having different eyes of perseption and that is that.
  
  As far as where I got them becoming the next terrorist...war paint? How can they allow little children in a place of worhsip who are supposed to be against any acts of "hate" or "war" or anything negitive for that matter, dress up in war paint, dance around like savage idiots and chant war?
  
  How can they supsept their children to such ridiculous "inner torture" by making them believe that they are born sinners and that there mission is from God to bring peace by means of "the hand" or violence.
  
  Anyways, while we may have different takes on this movie and again I absolutely do not believe that all christians do that sort of thing, that movie is outragous.
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  Pestposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Every religion promises great things in the after life and the weak fall for it, many times those in need or children or young people. I am looking into the one that promises virgins in the afterlife. I am weak willed after all!
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  Nickny79posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Every socialist demagogue promises great things in this life and the weak fall for it, many times those in need or children or young people. I am looking to the one that promises....
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  Pestposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  common sense aint all that common, you have it nailed down pat. Kudos.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But after you got to them how long would it take before there were no virgins left?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I will take two a day but that is probably as many as I could manage nowadays.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You ever watch the comedian Dunham with his puppets? Anyways, he does a skit with is dead muslim puppet and the puppet and he says something about how the puppet muslim committed suicide to go to heaven and have 71 virgins but when he got there he was greeted by 71 male virgins. LOL. hahahahahaha
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  So one also must be careful what they wish for, or be more specific!
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maestrowhitposted 14 years ago
Robert Ingersol seems a trite ironic. He wants all that, but he wants it for Christmas

LOL
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needful thingsposted 14 years ago
Hubpages is a form of religion. Squidoo is a form of religion. And when one religion clashes with each other...
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ejbposted 14 years ago
I have written a hub about the religion, the first part to a few more. If you are interested in religion then i hope you will like it :-)
Thank you
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Osa Osazuwa-Tosanposted 14 years ago
Religion may be all things to all people, but CHRISTIANITY is something else!
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maestrowhitposted 14 years ago
"The Unknown" is a great gaping wound for most people.

Religion is their band-aid.

They don't know so they make believe that they do.....aaah, all better!

That's why no two people share the exact same religious doctrines.
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maestrowhitposted 14 years ago
yes I find this quaint little Christian gem of God loving the sinner but not the sin to be quite hilarious. It still boggles my mind how anyone can't see it's hilarity. I mean come on - when a man commits murder and we send him to the chair, we send the man himself to the chair - not his act of murder. Give me a break.

But of course there is a myriad of successive concepts that help clean up that dirty little insult to logic. Like this one - God's love is not the same as man's love; it's greater and beyond man's understanding.

That - as an explanation to the first - is even more hilarious. It is fully equipped with all the necessary features that allow it to stand up on it's own.

Here's religion for you - start out with a single self-serving conceptual remedy to a conceptual problem, and then when it doesn't quite make sense, create a remedy for that as well. When it's all said and done you have a mountain of solutions and anecdotes that only make sense when you put them all together in a certain specific order.

Religion is a fabricated solution to a non-existent problem.
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  SparklingJewelposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  In response to all these opinions and perspectives, I again say, that the mystical aspects of the world's religions make this all plain after a certain level of understanding. Jesus was showing mystical concepts of Love-the Order of the Universe. Order, in that, there is a "Way that makes all things right" (to understand).
  
  In short, the concept that the we are all sinners, means to me, that no one on earth is perfectly in the "flow of the Order of the Universe"...that's why we are here, to learn to get into the flow, which is the process for our souls to evolve.
  
  Regardless of whether we are a part of a religion, we can find our way to being in that Order. But the prophets, saints and sages of the past can make it easier to find that Way. Jesus was the icing on the cake, if you will, that came to show us how to bring it all together. How to take everything that history has shown that was Truth and add the Christic/ mystical understanding to wrap it all up.
  
  Christians have done nothing worse than any of the other religions from the past have done. They have tried to "take-in" what they were given and make it Love...some made it happen, and like every other religion, some haven't. And Christians seem to be much more greatly biased against than other religions, and I have had to ask myself why.
  
  Is it because they are so close to the answer, having accepted Christ to the degree they have...because according to all recorded mystical traditions, the anti-God/Order forces of the Universe do have it out for those that are closer to being in that Order. Anti-God forces like to usurp power and make their material gains no matter what the human cost.
  
  And I say again, we all have "seeds" of the anti-God force within us, that we are here to overcome and bring back into Order. It is the kind of human emotions that perpetuate dis-Order that need to be understood as something that can change with the mystical teachings fo the past, and which Jesus came to "top off"
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allshookupposted 14 years ago
Could it be that you are angry? Could it be? Could it be? Could it be that you just out-right hate anyone who loves God? Could it be? Could it be that you are apparently are referring to someone else's post because I NEVER said that Jesus claimed He was God? Could it be? Could it be? Could it be that one day you WILL confess who He is?

I'll answer all of these for you. The answer is YES.

You can fight with me. You can argue with me. You can hate me. You can say what you will, it wont change the future. No matter what you say, one day you will acknowledge Him for Who He is.

Maybe you'll remember me when that day comes.
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  Zarm Nefilinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Could it be that you are quite angry yourself?
  
  Geeze, you could try to think more. I am sure in your imagine fairy tale land your Sadist "Man-God" dishonorably invented off the dead bones of a prophet will vindicate you.
  
  He did in the Middle Ages for plenty of Christians. Christians such as yourself. were forced to acknowledge Holy Mother Church at the stake on which they were burned and now you are here to give all the "angry unbelievers" the good news that they will be staked for all eternity.
  
  Right......
  
  And you think that would be a loving thing to do, me being coerced to acknowledge your "God" and allegedly "rot in hell" for all eternity. One of us isn't being honest about their hate and one of us is hiding behind a "God" and his "will", and that one us is not me. I do hate you, but not all of you. I have no reason to hate you all the way, just partially. People have intense dislikes for certain aspects of other people and sometimes even those people in general. That however, doesn't make their hate complete it just means that they intensely dislike those people or parts of those people. I hate you because your sadism is apparent and it is immoral and it is very revolting. Especially given your prior adamant comments about turning the middle east into glass with nuclear weapons, unborn children in the mother's wombs and all. Hypocrisy? Noooooo of course not!
  
  Of course I think the concept that one could hate parts of people and love other parts would be a little too hard for your christian brain to grasp without stepping outside of the protective fold of the almighty sadist you seek to find comfort in. It's much akin to "hating" the "sin" and "loving" the "sinner", except with the key difference that it is a hell of a lot more intellectually AND emotionally honest than the above "sin" and "sinner" comparison. You don't live in a world where you don't hate, hate is afterall just intensely disliking something (look it up in the dictionary sometime when you aren't reading your Bible). You live in a world where you deny your own emotions and that denial is used to control you by other people who can tap into that denial. Every human hates, it is normal and to deny it is abnormal. To label it something else like love and then obsess about it is abnormal (perhaps what you do in your seething rage which is a form of fomenting hate or your cold hate which is an attempt at psychological superiority). The key is to not hate in such a manner that one seriously advocates such things as wiping out whole portions of the middle east. Are you seriously naive enough to think that just because there are people over there that DO think the same way about us that your "convictions" are any more justified? The same was said during the Crusades and a time will come when your fascist neoconservative convictions will be ridiculed and marginalized and not a single one of you will be given any voice to say anymore of your murderous belligerent diatribes. Once that day comes I hope the equivalent day comes for your Muslim friends in the middle east that think and act like you do in the name of Allah.
  
  And don't play coy or stupid with me, I have seen you post in here before and your words of genocide involving nukes and the middle east are etched into my mind quite clearly (I can drag your words before you if you deny them).
  
  The world will know MORE peace when people such as you and them no longer have any political power at all. Whether they live here in the States or anywhere.
  
  Truth be told if I died and I met Jesus I would tell him that he didn't give me any evidence but I would have no problem acknowledging that every last iota of good was his inspiration (and the reason I wouldn't have a problem with that is because I have met a few coercive sadists in my lifetime and there is only one way to survive around such evil and that is to submit). However there are two problems here. The first one is that I seriously doubt the Jesus I would meet in such a scenario would be anything like the kind you represent, and I also think that if such a Jesus did exist he would hardly be so self infatuated to try and force me to acknowledge that everything I did HAD to came from him and originate by his "Grace". I think your kind of X-tianity speaks volumes not about some alleged sadist sky-god but about YOU and what YOU represent. You see I don't hate Jesus, I have no reason to as I have never physically met anyone named Jesus who alleged to be "God" (all prior Christian mindgames set aside that I engaged in). What I do hate is fake religions that make claims and promises off the bones of dead prophets and construct a "God" that allegedly feels a need to coerce people to acknowledge his presence. You see I detect a structural weakness. The structural weakness I detect and exploit to my advantage is the insecurity inherent in every pathetic attempt a Christian such as yourself makes to get me to believe in a coercive "God" of her imagination who casts those who don't believe into Hell for all eternity for not bowing to his allegedly "Omni-benevolent" infatuation with himself and his disgusting need for His ego to be stroked and worshipped and eternal retribution for all who don't care to stroke his ego for all eternity and tell Him how good He is.
  
  I think the real issue is you are infatuated with worship of a social construct known as X-tianity. If there were a "God" I hardly have any reason to believe he would be as you X-tians allege as the only thing I can see so far is a hypocrisy that only grows larger the closer and closer you get to that little imaginary voice in the back of your head you call "Jesus" (and I know what you are talking about because I used to hear that sick little voice too). You know the one that convicts you about the need for the middle east to be turned into glass because they are wicked or the need for believers to rot in hell for all eternity. Or the small still voice, the same one that told people that blacks were slaves or told people today that He desired the conversion of all even if that means that some people have to die in order for his missionaries to have fertile ground in the middle east...? The same one that historically told the Inquisitors that it is better for the poor heretics and criminals who don't confess to Holy Mother Church to be tortured and convert to Wisdom and belief in Jesus and his Church than it would be for them to rot in hell for all eternity....
  
  You live by the sword, you die by the sword, that is what I have to say to you believer.
  
  To all other Christians who believe in the validity of the US Constitution and American ideals that exist apart from their religion I say they have a right to believe whatever they want to believe and I welcome them at the table and I drink beer with them as an atheist. To fascists such as yourself I only show contempt of the highest sort and I don't hide what I think (especially regarding your own twisted form of it).
  
  Oh and one more thing. Such a type of opinion obviously must be only "politically incorrect" if it's coming from someone else directed at me (such as yourself as you just have done)? Or do I detect that the politically incorrect of the right is the same bullshit as the political correctness of the left? Hmmmm? Where are all those conservative talk radio hosts to save you now? Your cynicism has been used against you. I do pay attention to what you and others post, please don't make me drag things before you or stuff out of your own hubs because you attempt to play coy and innocent.
  
  "Could it be that you are apparently are referring to someone else's post because I NEVER said that Jesus claimed He was God? Could it be? Could it be? Could it be that one day you WILL confess who He is?"
  
  Could it be that your an idiot and that is not what I said but nonetheless your entire belief system is founded on the idea that Jesus is God (which Jesus never said)? Could it be that when this Great Depression you and your fascist friends hope for happens that this nation won't radicalize even further towards your idiotic "War on Terror"? Could it be that America does exist and isn't just the "land that used to be" as you rant on your hub in the poem you quote? Could it be that America is greater than any of your fascist dreams, with whom dictators such as Hitler ran their platforms on (a platform of traditional morality that was coerced and soldiers who wore belt buckles proclaiming the Christian Jesus and had chaplains well versed in "traditional" morality)?
  
  If I were you I would hope there wasn't a "God" because it isn't people like me who would face condemnation, it is fascists such as yourselves.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Sounds like you are the one that is angry to me. I don't hate you for loving god, although I do find it rather funny that this is what you think and I find it even funnier how you think you are sharing His love. With threats.
  
  I for one refuse to be frightened by the irrational threats you make here. I will not be answering to any god and neither will you.
  
  You are already paying the price for your "convictions."
  
  But thanks for once again proving your religion is irrational, fear-mongering garbage.
  
  You know the future
  
  One day you will acknowledge Him
  
  Remember me when that day comes
  
  Do your kid a favor and send him to school............
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What is funny to me is that if Allshookup (and me) are right, there is no problem whatsoever with our beliefs. We live our life, you live yours and we just all turn to dust. Yet, if we are right, you burn in hell. Hmm, I wonder who the fool is here. It is sure not Allshookup. You have no idea what eternity holds, and you know it. I agree with Allshookup that the Bible is right, and you will ond day acknowledge Jesus for who He is, God. The Bible promises it.
  
  Allshookup is not one bit angry. Why should she be? She is just frustrated that you blasphemy God all the time. Would you want me to call your family names? Of course not. So, we want respect paid, deep down, but we know you will not give it, yet...
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  vd - keep on repeating the same thing over and over and over will not make it come true.
  
  As to the points you made - If I am right, how much of your life will you have wasted arguing this rubbish? How damaged will your children be from listening to this over and over and over? How many innocent lives will be lost fighting for it?
  
  Why on earth would anyone become frustrated that I do not choose to believe in your god?
  
  Not a very powerful god after all then. Does not support you in your time of frustration. Not impressed one little bit.
  
  If I called any of your family or asu's names I apologize unreservedly. I do not recall doing so, but feel free to quote me. If you do, please quote the entire piece though.
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pylos26posted 14 years ago
ZN…could it be that you are attempting to use rationale and common sense towards one portraying the very definition of ignorance and stupidity. I am certain that you would progress further by butting a brick wall.
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Onusonusposted 14 years ago
Religion is like a wise man who built his house upon a rock, with a sure foundation, and when the storms of life came and beat on him, his house stood still. Such is true to the adversity of existance.
God's revenge on mankind is teenagers, so that we would know what it is like to have created a person who completely deny's your existance!
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maestrowhitposted 14 years ago
religion is like a coward who built a strong house around himself because he was too afraid to face the storms of life. And since the storms of life never ever stop, he was forever limited to the confines of his safe little house.
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  mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Religions -group of people who follow a master or enlightened ones teaching of love .Nothing wrong with a religion ,it gets twisted when ego comes in and someone says my prophet or religion is better than yours. I respect all religions and their prophets.What superb words each one has left behind Religions are guides to help one go beyond. A master leaving behind the path one needs to walk in order to go beyond or merge with God.
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Onusonusposted 14 years ago
Naah, It's good stuff! People coming together to worship God, Building up the kingdom of Heaven on Earth. It's all about self improvement and tolerance for your fellow man. Good old fashioned Church; the talks, sermons, sacraments, ya gotta love it!
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viralprospectorposted 14 years ago
Zarm;

Please pardon my typing as one finger is taped.

Here is a critique of your sometimes irrational post, albeit long and melodramatic:

"Could it be that you are quite angry yourself?"

It is called "frustrated".

"Geeze, you could try to think more. I am sure in your imagine fairy tale land your Sadist "Man-God" dishonorably invented off the dead bones of a prophet will vindicate you."

Sadist, dead bones?? Empty, angry? rhetoric... No facts or common sense applied...

"He did in the Middle Ages for plenty of Christians. Christians such as yourself. were forced to acknowledge Holy Mother Church at the stake on which they were burned and now you are here to give all the "angry unbelievers" the good news that they will be staked for all eternity."

OK, the Middle Ages is supposed to apply to 2009? In reading this post, it seems to be your most convincing argument against Christianity. Well, you do not do justice to history by lableing the Christians as the evil ones of the Middle Ages. Go back a little fuirther and see why the Chjristians had to fight. They were persecuted before then, not that those individual actions have any bearing on today whatsoever.

"Right......

And you think that would be a loving thing to do, me being coerced to acknowledge your "God" and allegedly "rot in hell" for all eternity. One of us isn't being honest about their hate and one of us is hiding behind a "God" and his "will", and that one us is not me. I do hate you, but not all of you. I have no reason to hate you all the way, just partially. People have intense dislikes for certain aspects of other people and sometimes even those people in general. That however, doesn't make their hate complete it just means that they intensely dislike those people or parts of those people. I hate you because your sadism is apparent and it is immoral and it is very revolting. Especially given your prior adamant comments about turning the middle east into glass with nuclear weapons, unborn children in the mother's wombs and all. Hypocrisy? Noooooo of course not!"

We could really not care less who you acknowledge because we are certain that only you can choose. We just want to state our opinion. Take it or leave it. At least you do acknowledge that you hate us, though. That is so far superior to the rest of the people here who do not know the truth. I really applaud you for your honesty. I admire that immensely. I do hope that it goes away in time, and I expect that it will. You should contemplate your "sadism" charge, since there is absolutely nothing sadistic about reciting the contents of the Bible and writing them here. Remember, we are just reporting the news, not making it.

"Of course I think the concept that one could hate parts of people and love other parts would be a little too hard for your christian brain to grasp without stepping outside of the protective fold of the almighty sadist you seek to find comfort in. It's much akin to "hating" the "sin" and "loving" the "sinner", except with the key difference that it is a hell of a lot more intellectually AND emotionally honest than the above "sin" and "sinner" comparison. You don't live in a world where you don't hate, hate is afterall just intensely disliking something (look it up in the dictionary sometime when you aren't reading your Bible). You live in a world where you deny your own emotions and that denial is used to control you by other people who can tap into that denial. Every human hates, it is normal and to deny it is abnormal. To label it something else like love and then obsess about it is abnormal (perhaps what you do in your seething rage which is a form of fomenting hate or your cold hate which is an attempt at psychological superiority). The key is to not hate in such a manner that one seriously advocates such things as wiping out whole portions of the middle east. Are you seriously naive enough to think that just because there are people over there that DO think the same way about us that your "convictions" are any more justified? The same was said during the Crusades and a time will come when your fascist neoconservative convictions will be ridiculed and marginalized and not a single one of you will be given any voice to say anymore of your murderous belligerent diatribes. Once that day comes I hope the equivalent day comes for your Muslim friends in the middle east that think and act like you do in the name of Allah."

There are some good points here about being hoinest with our emotions. I already touched on them, and I agree with that. However, let me cut to the chase on the Middle East, since you brought it up. The Quran commands its followers to kill all infidels. That unfortunate idea will doom the ability for Christians and Muslims to coexist. I believe in the Bible 100%. It commands me to not kill. How can a Muslim who believes in Mohammad 100% exist with me? It is a sad fact. I bear no hostility to anyuone, but think that one through, and you will see that I am right, I think. Why pick on Christians who are commanded to seek peace, but are committed to take preemptive measures to prohibit attacks from our enemies? You rail against Christianity, when you should just be mad at bad Christian people, or better yet - the real terrorists of our time. We do all sin, and we know it. Remember, true Muslims are going to kill us for their beliefs, and we will defend ourselves. That is no easy process. We cannot simply wait around for them to come blow us up. We must take preemptive actions. This is an untenable situation, caused by the holy book of Islam, the Quran - not the Bible. Tell me how to rectify that...

"And don't play coy or stupid with me, I have seen you post in here before and your words of genocide involving nukes and the middle east are etched into my mind quite clearly (I can drag your words before you if you deny them)."

I am unaware of this issue, but I sense the comments I made above will resolve the issue totally.

"The world will know MORE peace when people such as you and them no longer have any political power at all. Whether they live here in the States or anywhere."

My comments above make this comment false. We must defend against Muslim attacks. They have come, and they will keep coming. The difference betweeen us and you is we are dealing with today. You want to brand us with things from the Middle
Ages, since you cannot deny that it is the Muslims at fault right now today. You cannot deny that these people are commanded to cause the very problems you accuse us of. That would be naive and hypocritical.

"Truth be told if I died and I met Jesus I would tell him that he didn't give me any evidence but I would have no problem acknowledging that every last iota of good was his inspiration (and the reason I wouldn't have a problem with that is because I have met a few coercive sadists in my lifetime and there is only one way to survive around such evil and that is to submit). However there are two problems here. The first one is that I seriously doubt the Jesus I would meet in such a scenario would be anything like the kind you represent, and I also think that if such a Jesus did exist he would hardly be so self infatuated to try and force me to acknowledge that everything I did HAD to came from him and originate by his "Grace". I think your kind of X-tianity speaks volumes not about some alleged sadist sky-god but about YOU and what YOU represent. You see I don't hate Jesus, I have no reason to as I have never physically met anyone named Jesus who alleged to be "God" (all prior Christian mindgames set aside that I engaged in). What I do hate is fake religions that make claims and promises off the bones of dead prophets and construct a "God" that allegedly feels a need to coerce people to acknowledge his presence. You see I detect a structural weakness. The structural weakness I detect and exploit to my advantage is the insecurity inherent in every pathetic attempt a Christian such as yourself makes to get me to believe in a coercive "God" of her imagination who casts those who don't believe into Hell for all eternity for not bowing to his allegedly "Omni-benevolent" infatuation with himself and his disgusting need for His ego to be stroked and worshipped and eternal retribution for all who don't care to stroke his ego for all eternity and tell Him how good He is."

In my opiniopn, what you miss is who God really is. You act like He is some average guy. Think about this... What if He did create all of the world and the heavens, knowing all of that for eternity before He created it. Don't just breeze over that. If it is true, you (and all of us) have absolutely no clue who He is. He is simply incomprehensible to our limited brains. So, Allshookup and I read and study the Bible for clues who He is. We simply believe He is who He says He is. He says there 613 things that are wrongs (sins) in the Bible, by the way. It is not for me to question that Book which has stood for thousands of years as the preeminent book of righteous wisdom. You disagree. You want Jesus to fit your ideal of Him. If He exists (and of course I believe He does), your ideas of Him are very dangerous to you, according to what He inspired to be written, the Bible.

"I think the real issue is you are infatuated with worship of a social construct known as X-tianity. If there were a "God" I hardly have any reason to believe he would be as you X-tians allege as the only thing I can see so far is a hypocrisy that only grows larger the closer and closer you get to that little imaginary voice in the back of your head you call "Jesus" (and I know what you are talking about because I used to hear that sick little voice too). You know the one that convicts you about the need for the middle east to be turned into glass because they are wicked or the need for believers to rot in hell for all eternity. Or the small still voice, the same one that told people that blacks were slaves or told people today that He desired the conversion of all even if that means that some people have to die in order for his missionaries to have fertile ground in the middle east...? The same one that historically told the Inquisitors that it is better for the poor heretics and criminals who don't confess to Holy Mother Church to be tortured and convert to Wisdom and belief in Jesus and his Church than it would be for them to rot in hell for all eternity.... "

Again, it is a pass/fail course for us. You do not get to invent God. We believe He invented you and knew every molecule forever because He created them. No amount of logic (or illogic) can change that the Bible is simply true or false. It ends by saying that no one can add to or take away anything from it without losing His inheritance.

"You live by the sword, you die by the sword, that is what I have to say to you believer."

Whatever that is intended to mean... I guess that applies to the slavery and Middle Ages stuff... or is it the problem with the Quran commanding all Muslims to kill all others? It is simply irrelevent to a group that are commanded "thou shalt not kill." Wars are fought among nations or groups, but it is not Christian to be the instigators. However, Americans will defend themselves, including cutting off possible terrorism before it strikes us at home.

"To all other Christians who believe in the validity of the US Constitution and American ideals that exist apart from their religion I say they have a right to believe whatever they want to believe and I welcome them at the table and I drink beer with them as an atheist. To fascists such as yourself I only show contempt of the highest sort and I don't hide what I think (especially regarding your own twisted form of it)."

That is twisted rhetoric, I think. I believe 100% in the U.S. Constitution. Everyone should if they are an American. The problem with the Constitution is that it is not enforced by the government. Why rail against Christians when the government is the perpetrator? Is every problem caused by Christians in your interpretation of life? I could start up WWIII by saying that America was founded on Christian principles, but this is already long enough. Suffice it to say that the Bible and the Constitution have coexisted just fine for our entire national existence.

"Oh and one more thing. Such a type of opinion obviously must be only "politically incorrect" if it's coming from someone else directed at me (such as yourself as you just have done)? Or do I detect that the politically incorrect of the right is the same bullshit as the political correctness of the left? Hmmmm? Where are all those conservative talk radio hosts to save you now? Your cynicism has been used against you. I do pay attention to what you and others post, please don't make me drag things before you or stuff out of your own hubs because you attempt to play coy and innocent."

Hmmm, there is nothing to make of that. A threat, I guess...

"Could it be that you are apparently are referring to someone else's post because I NEVER said that Jesus claimed He was God? Could it be? Could it be? Could it be that one day you WILL confess who He is?"

Could it be that your an idiot and that is not what I said but nonetheless your entire belief system is founded on the idea that Jesus is God (which Jesus never said)? Could it be that when this Great Depression you and your fascist friends hope for happens that this nation won't radicalize even further towards your idiotic "War on Terror"? Could it be that America does exist and isn't just the "land that used to be" as you rant on your hub in the poem you quote? Could it be that America is greater than any of your fascist dreams, with whom dictators such as Hitler ran their platforms on (a platform of traditional morality that was coerced and soldiers who wore belt buckles proclaiming the Christian Jesus and had chaplains well versed in "traditional" morality)?"

Jesus did say He was God. For one, He said in answer to who He was that "I am". That was his admission, since the Old Testament was clear in that only God used that phrase. Jesus died for that. I'd say that is pretty strong evidence of His conviction on that point that He was willing to give up His very life. We all know it. It is throughout the writings of the Bible. It is good to study the Bible before telling Christians what it means. The trinity is the basis of our belief. So, yes, the Bible does in fact say that.

"If I were you I would hope there wasn't a "God" because it isn't people like me who would face condemnation, it is fascists such as yourselves."

Hmmm, that is a pretty mean statement. I doubt if any atheist will call you out for it because they will operate by the double standard that you all can insult us, but we must be smoochie poochies. Worse than that, though, the Bible says the opposite. That was the crux of all this. You came full circle. You do have free will. We all do. Jesus will intervene for those who choose Him, not those who make up some fictional character or worship some false God, according to the Bible (and me).

An analogy I use a lot is that of the prom queen. She does not have to chase after a date. Everyone must earn the right to date her. She writes the rules. You must follow the rules or get out of line. If it applies, using real world situations today, might this same principle apply to God to a much greater extent? He says you must choose Him. That is the first step. If you do not choose Him, then just get out of line. Don't shoot the messengers.
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Onusonusposted 14 years ago
The ties of friendship, and brotherhood which have indissolubly united us together with a thousand indearing associations, and embraced the common faith, even that which was delivered to the saints. We have been privliged to hear the everlasting gospel, which has been delivered to us by the spirit of prophecy, by the opening of the heavens, by the gift of the Holy Ghost, by the ministering of angels,, and by the power of God.
A kindred sympathy runs throughout the body, which is the body of Christ, which according to Paul, is his church, and no part of the body can be injured without the other parts feeling pian, and if one member rejoices all the rest are honored with it.
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viralprospectorposted 14 years ago
Mark;

"vd - keep on repeating the same thing over and over and over will not make it come true."

Mark, that is just another cheap shot. Do you think the vd comment will get applause from the atheists? I do not think there is another person here so weak as you. I think you are the lowest person here to have to resort to cheapo insults because you do not have the ability to stand your ground.

You want to be content that I should change my opinions to fit the argument as you have done on hp before? No, I am a little above that for sure...

"As to the points you made - If I am right, how much of your life will you have wasted arguing this rubbish? How damaged will your children be from listening to this over and over and over? How many innocent lives will be lost fighting for it?"

I will have wasted far less time than you, it seems clear to me anyway. You seem to live on the religion forum... What is damaging about wanting a world of morals and ethics?

"Why on earth would anyone become frustrated that I do not choose to believe in your god?"

Go figure, maybe it has to do with your unpreempted insults, like the vd one for example? Maybe it is that all the atheists band together and ignore your silly insults, but have a hissy fit if a Christian responds in kind after having enough. You act like we are to have no emotions as Christians. Don't try to impose your cold emotionless state on us.

"Not a very powerful god after all then. Does not support you in your time of frustration. Not impressed one little bit."

God is always there, and you are too. The difference is that you just want to express your ego. You are a mean person. God comforts me and cares for me.

"If I called any of your family or asu's names I apologize unreservedly. I do not recall doing so, but feel free to quote me. If you do, please quote the entire piece though."

Try reading that again, and maybe you will get the point.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well I think it is funny and it sure fits but I will stop doing it if you are so thin-skinned. It is certainly more inventive than just calling every one liars if they do not agree with you.You might want to use a real name in future, the one you have chosen is a bit of a mouthful
  
  Well, if you actually stood for morals and ethics you would not be getting an argument from me. The same with asu. Spreading hate and calling it Love does not count.
  
  Unpreempted? What sort of a word is that? If you mean I started by saying there is no god, you seem to have the time lines a little mixed up. I would not need to "insult" you by refusing to believe in your god if you did not keep saying I was not living my life in the correct fashion and was going to burn in hell.
  
  At least I am honest enough to agree it is me being mean instead of blaming it on "just spreading god's love."
  
  Oh, I get it just fine.
  
  Just remember - you are insulting my imaginary friends and family every time you tell me there is a god and he is jealous and angry and is going to get me and make me suffer.
  
  I can understand why you are so mixed up. It must be very difficult spreading all this hatred and animosity, and at the same time trying to convince yourself you are spreading the love of the lord. I feel for you dude. Cognitive dissonance. Some one even wrote a poem about you for me:
  
  "According to Mark, the 'convicted'
  are wholly confused and conflicted.
  Their turmoil within
  revolves around sin
  and guilt that is all self-inflicted!"
  
  Paraglider
  
  Happy New Year
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  maestrowhitposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That's funny, I remember not too long ago you had elected ME as the lowest, most unworthy of respect, most despicable hubber - you even called me Satan in the flesh. Whew!
  
  Congratulations to Mark for making it into that most prestigious of VP-elected positions. Enjoy it while it lasts Mark, because as soon as VP encounters another hubber who scares him so much that he cannot think of a good intelligent response, he'll take away your capacity as the most loathsome of all hubpages creatures and give it to whomever is challenging him at the time.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Maestrowhit, the posterchild of whining like crazy if a Christian allegedly insults an atheist and turning the blind eye when an atheist insults a Chrsitian. Do you have any points to make? If all you have is a double standard, I guess I am not surprised.
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  maestrowhitposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I believe my point is pretty clear to see by anyone with the eyes to see it. I'm not saying that you are insulting and I am not, or that you are insulting but none of the atheists are. I'm saying to you that you are inconsistent and contradictory to yourself. You lack accountability. I've said that to you before many times. You say one thing and do something entirely contrary. Your actions are not cohesive with your words. You say whatever suits you at the time without any regard to how it reflects on other things you claim and say.
  
  I am insulting and I have no qualms about admitting that. So is Mark, and he admits it too. But at least he and I are consistent in what we present of ourselves. You are not.
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VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 14 years ago
I would like to see the world as does Mark Knowles... free from superstition, free from injustice, etc. Most of his Christmas wishes are identical to mine !
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Mark Knowles and a world free of injustice? Well, I guess that is true to someone who cannot read the insults he just leveled. I do not know of even the most corrupt judge that might see it that way, though. I guess you have spoken, though, that you want all Christians insulted and the perpetrotor congratulated for it. Is that Nazi justice?
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viralprospectorposted 14 years ago
To all atheists reading:

Well, the story is now complete. I can finally rest my case. I have been repeatedly chastised by many of you for being insulting on hp. When you all come against the real perpetrator, I will listen to more of that BS. In the meantime, here is the reality of the matter on that.

Mark Knowles always starts it, you all sit by and say absolutely nothing to him or anyone else. Then, someone finally tells him what they think of him for being so insulting. Then you all go nuts, and blame the responder. Well, read this and weep, hypocrites. It is Mark Knowles that is the one doing the mean writing on hp. He even proudly admits it to makes fools of all of you that act like the responder is the mean one. Then, he follows that up with more insults just to make bigger fools of you all. He makes no other point in his posts here. Here are his words:

“At least I am honest enough to agree it is me being mean”

“just calling every one liars if they do not agree with you.”

“Well, if you actually stood for morals and ethics…”

“Spreading hate and calling it Love”

“I can understand why you are so mixed up”

“It must be very difficult spreading all this hatred and animosity”

“…trying to convince yourself you are spreading the love of the lord”

“I feel for you dude”
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I can only speak for myself, but I don't need Mark to make melook like a fool, I'm pretty good at that on my own.
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  Zarm Nefilinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You know you sound like a child "He STARTED IT!!!"
  
  Pathetic, and weak. You are also retarded too. If you are Christian you are supposed to show charity and instead you act like a child, pointing fingers and throwing names and hurling threats of brimstone and hellfire. Not very "holy" if you ask me. Then again I don't think your very "holy" and wouldn't consider someone "holy" who spends most of his time sucking up to The Man. The same "Man" that cannot help but have all the believers suck on his ego and stroke his ego for all eternity. I said it in another post and I will say it here, your "God" is a Sadist. A Narcissist and a Sadist.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I now do not need to say that some of them are total lunatics.
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  Zarm Nefilinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Child. That is what you act like. Any "God" that gets "It's" followers to imagine a wonderful place where the followers stroke it's ego for all eternity is a Narcissist as far as I am concerned. A "God" similar to the one Einstein complained about:
  
  "I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism." [Einstein]
  
  Your "God" has a sadistic need for "It's" followers to spread the "message" of ETERNAL damnation for anyone that refuses to stroke "It's" ego for all eternity. So what is the purpose of the cruel Sadist doctrine known as Hell if the damnation is not meant to reform? There is no purpose other than to spite the "wicked" for not obsessively stroking your "God's" ego for all eternity and singing the praises of a Deity who is clearly self obsessed.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It seems you have it all wrong my friend. Are you willing to listen?
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Paragliderposted 14 years ago
Viralprospector - broadsides don't really work. If you take exception to a comment, by all means take it up with the writer, but please don't invent groups like 'you all'. To my knowledge, the nearest thing to an organised group on HP is your own group of regular respondents to RFRWC hub. I see no evidence of any other 'coterie', if I may use the term.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And Paraglider lands a solid left hook!
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And fools think solid left hooks are good.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Float like a butterfly and sting like a bee.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Broadsides are sure better than preemptive insults, even if I made no such thing. I find it at best revolting that you are taking issue with me, but I am used to it, as I just wrote. I am surprised at you, though. I really thought you had far more class than this. I did nothing but get a shot from MK. Whatever...
  
  I think the group is quite clear to most. If you do not agree, that is your perogative. That is beside the point. The point is just what is going on here. MK makes insults, and you take me on. I find that at best hypocritical and borderline prejuduced. That is just my opinion, I am not looking for concurrence. Case in point clearly made...
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  Zarm Nefilinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You poor persecuted thing you....
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Mishaposted 14 years ago
Thank you for the giggles guys
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Onusonusposted 14 years ago
the law of heaven is presented to man, and as such guarantees to all who obey it a reward far beyond any earthly consideration; though it does not promise that the believer in every age should be exempt from the afflictions and troubles arising from different sources in concequence of of the acts of wicked men on Earth. Still in the midst of all this there is a promise predicated upon the fact that it is the law of Heaven, which transcends the laws of man, as far as eternal life the temporal; and as the blessings which God is able to give, are far greater than those which can be given by any man. It is a law prepatory to Celestial rest.
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needful thingsposted 14 years ago
Whew!!! (*My head is spinning...)

"What fools these mortals be..."
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  mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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knolyourselfposted 14 years ago
"And I say again, we all have "seeds" of the anti-God force within us, that we are here to overcome and bring back into Order."
Maybe it is the duality that is disharmonious.
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  SparklingJewelposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Duhhh! So what Jesus taught was forgiveness and Love...even unto death...so that we could see the power of the Order of Love, and the disharmony the duality brings, out of fear of loss of human ego power
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pylos26posted 14 years ago
Reading these posts is not unlike reading a book…if the content is thoroughly BS, the thing naturally becomes boring before the reader has a chance to make a conscience literary assessment. As I read back over previous post here, I notice common sense in some, and others seemingly built entirely around BS. Some posts seem to reflects “literate minds” and others “illiterate minds”. Anyone else noticed a pattern here???

Of the seemingly literate minds; We have names such as Mark Knowles, Zarn Nefilin, Venugopal Sivagna, and Paraglider.

Of the seemingly illiterate minds: We have names such as Maestowhit, Allshookup, Sirdent, and one preacher bearing “canned goods” of various myths that likes to be called Onusonus.

It would seem that a bit of education for some might round this thing out...
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  SparklingJewelposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, but pylos, it is more than that...there is a sense of spirituality that is missing in some "literate" minds...and a lack of being able to express that spirituality in words in some of the "illterate". They both attack each other in inconsiderate ways, that do nothing to bring about a unity of hearts, let alone minds. They are all lacking in love.
  
  But it is even more than that...spiritual things are not of this plane of linear thought, and so words can't express them. I believe it is as I have said, that the mystical traditions have shown a path of expression...to make all things right.
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  Zarm Nefilinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think you bring together unity of bullshit.
  
  Just my two cents.
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  maestrowhitposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'd like to know what you think is so illiterate about my mind. That's quite a bold statement - lets see if you can give me a reason why you made it. You do realize that I started this thread, don't you?
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am offended by the comment myself, I thought surely I qualified as illiterate myself. I feel hurt I was left out.
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Teresa McGurkposted 14 years ago
I know I'm butting in late in this whole -- nah. Can't call it an argument. An argument is a logical progression of ideas, and depends on all sides of an issue being granted equal chances to prevail. An argument, after considering all sides, then comes to a reasoned, and reasonable conclusion.

It is difficult to hold an argument when anger creeps (or storms) onto the scene. Arguing entails listening to the other points of view. Considering the other points of view, their merits and deficiencies.

As Pylos26 has already stated, it does indeed seem that there are voices of reason in this whole debate -- and then there are voices clinging to convictions. Reason is a valuable tool that separates us from fools.

I don't know where to begin to join this brouhaha (love that word!), this whirling babel of opinion and cant.

So I'll take the chicken's way out, be cowardly, and tell you all that I have not learned anything new from reading this forum, and I was hoping to learn. Something. Anything.

I know this is selfish of me, and I apologize. But I do love a good discussion.

More?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Welcome to the discussion. Sorry you haven't learned anything new
  
  Although, I am keen to know how you plan on bringing this particular discussion to a "reasonable conclusion," given that certain viewpoints are...... faith based beliefs rather than a reasoned decision.
  
  And I am not taking the piss, I am just interested to know if you think it is possible to reach a reasonable conclusion when discussing faith based beliefs?
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  Teresa McGurkposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nope -- with my tongue firmly in my cheek, I was trying to point out that cant and reason do not mix. If anything, I was taking the piss out of the whole "debate" -- since some of the writers (you know who you are) are trying to be logical, and some are simply repeating what they have been taught to think.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ah. Me either. But it is not my intention to attempt a reasonable conclusion with some of these on the thread.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Teresa;
  
  I have never run across you before, but I feel this should be considered. Your "tongue" (part of your head) is "firmly" placed in your "cheek" (part of your cheeks) related that "some are simply repeating what they have been taught to think". That brings to mind education, knowledge, learning, study and other very fine things. More power to all of those who have the wisdom to know what to think from what they are taught. More power to those who are eager to be taught what to think. May thoise who dream up things on their own forever be banned to obscurity for wisdom is not achieved in a vacuum.
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  Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  VP - there is a fallacy here. Without dreamers who have the courage to create new thoughts, how can knowledge and wisdom ever advance? I do not favour throwing away all traditional learning, but I strongly support adding to it every day. And questioning it too. Without new ideas, we can only atrophy towards oblivion.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It is painfully obvious to me that it is absolutely critical to be taught what to think. To say otherwise is foolishness. Knowledge is the basis of new ideas. Reinventing the wheel comes to mind...
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  Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  VP - we should be taught what others have thought. That is education. We are then free to think the same or differently. But we should not be taught what to think. That is indoctrination.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That is semantics to me. We should be taught what math to think, what English to think, what health to think and to some extent what science, social studies, etc. to think. Basic knowledge is so extensive that there is immeasurably more of what we should think than we can absorb. Truth should be taught that we should believe it 100%.
  
  Those who have no education need that which is exactly being taught what to think. They do not have access to that. Test scores and our own education measures seem to indicate that our children are not learning enough of what to think.
  
  I think you know what I am saying, right? I am advocating education to the max. If you are against that, then carry on. Otherwise, that is all I am saying.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  viralinfection -
  
  It doesn't have to be painful man. You can let go of this way of being. No wonder you are so confused. I feel for you dude.
  
  There is a world of difference in being taught what to think, as you have been.
  
  And being taught how to think, as I have been.
  
  Of course you are all confused and conflicted if you just think what you were taught to think. Education - its a wonderful thing, but the death knell for your silly cult.
  
  Sorry dude - you will feel much better once you can accept reality for what it is.
  
  And I am no one's boy
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Whenever I begin have deep thoughts like that I always end up masturbating. Then my mind is nice and blank again.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Pretty much my approach, too
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  Teresa McGurkposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Dear ViralP:
  
  there is a real difference between education (e- Latin, "out of," and ducare, "to lead") and rote learning. The first encourages individual thought, and the professor questions the students, encouraging them to think for themselves. This is the basis for higher education and is found in universities around the globe, where thought must be original; where the repetition of received ideas is viewed as shoddy practice, at best.
  
  Then there is another kind of learning, or training, where students are encouraged (as, say, at the high school level, or in technical colleges) to reproduce a set of known facts in order to build on that training; where the repetition of received ideas is important if one is to learn the correct way something is done. This is vital in many fields of endeavor.
  
  I draw the distinction because you are perhaps confusing the two? That would be as confused as saying that higher education in universities is all right-brained and training in tech colleges is all left-brained -- when all education beyond the undergraduate level, no matter the institution, stresses a whole-brained approach to seeking, synthesizing, and analyzing information.
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Leta Sposted 14 years ago
Teresa-
I knew there were other reasons besides the fact you like Shakespeare and could recommend good biographies that I became your fan, !
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  Teresa McGurkposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hey, Lita -- the feeling is mutual. Glad you are a hubber!
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knolyourselfposted 14 years ago
"So what is the purpose of the cruel Sadist doctrine known as Hell if the damnation is not meant to reform? There is no purpose other than to spite the "wicked" for not obsessively stroking your "God's" ego for all eternity and singing the praises of a Deity who is clearly self obsessed."
Great analysis.
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viralprospectorposted 14 years ago
Zarm;

You are a very angry person. I hope you can find a way to control your obsessive anger because it is irritating and rude. It means absolutely nothing to me, but it eats you up from the inside out. Plus, mature people might think you are crazy to be so out of control.

"Child. That is what you act like. Any "God" that gets "It's" followers to imagine a wonderful place where the followers stroke it's ego for all eternity is a Narcissist as far as I am concerned. A "God" similar to the one Einstein complained about:"

Breaking your sentence here, your insults are compliments to me. It's the old double negative makes a positive. So, please keep it up if you want to eat yourself up.

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism." [Einstein]

OK, now we know that Einstein could not imagine God.

"Your "God" has a sadistic need for "It's" followers to spread the "message" of ETERNAL damnation for anyone that refuses to stroke "It's" ego for all eternity. So what is the purpose of the cruel Sadist doctrine known as Hell if the damnation is not meant to reform? There is no purpose other than to spite the "wicked" for not obsessively stroking your "God's" ego for all eternity and singing the praises of a Deity who is clearly self obsessed."

God has no need for His followers to spread His message, per se. He is more than capable of anything He wants. We do it willingly, no eagerly. I do not need to stroke any ego, much less God's. If you study the Bible, you will understand all of this. You have a weird image of God, it seems to me. Hell has several purposes, as I see it. I think you are right that one of them is to cause reform. However, I am not God. You can ask Him when the time comes. I guess we will see who is matuire and courageous if God does exist and you meet Him. Then, we will see if you call Him self obsessed. Until then, these are just empty words of no consequence.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm glad I don't believe in Hell, sounds like that concept would take all the fun out of living.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That depends on how you live.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I live like a Rock Star.
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  Zarm Nefilinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think your last sentence says it all in regards to the preceding paragraphs and sentences that you typed.
  
  Also, calling me "angry" is manipulative and disingenuous. The only thing you can do is fling basic accusations of what you perceive to be my emotional state of reference at any given point. It's empty angry rhetoric to you. Unfortunately there is more than just "empty angry rhetoric" behind what I say and I am not a dupe who will succumb to the wiles of your asinine
  stereotypes. Also unfortunate is the fact that you have yet to give me one scriptural example to refute any of my examples of your "God" being Sadist (scriptural examples based on your "God"'s actions and commands to followers). Be careful where you tread, because the OT is full of examples of what I have accused your "God" of here. I will use your very own scriptures to impale you if you take this challenge. Your very own Bible is full of passages where "God" commands the wholesale slaughter of entire villages under one "covenant" or another with "His People".
  
  I can prove using your Bible that my 'empty angry rhetoric' is not empty and is actually (ironically) scripturally sound. Please do take this challenge and I will show you how your "God" is a Sadist. Indeed all I need is your scripture and nothing else to show this (the irony).
  
  Quit hiding behind your "very angry person" accusation. People get angry, and people have a right to be angry. Neither you nor anyone else will deny me my emotions. You can preach till the choirs come home, but I have the right to feel angry. How convenient is it for hypocrites such as yourself to moan and complain about the alleged unborn "murder" of innocent babies, and work themselves up into a self righteous froth, and yet they seek to deny the ability of others to be angry. How so very convenient.
  
  Your religion is nothing other than an attempt to deny people the right to feel anger at injustice, while you protest the alleged "evils" of abortion. You are hypocrites.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Bring it on.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I heard the theme music of "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" on that comment. I'll be more than happy to be the ugly guy because I know I'll get laid regardless. I'm married.
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  Zarm Nefilinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. And Joshua smote them from Kadesh-barnea even unto Gaza, and all the country of Goshen, even unto Gibeon." Joshua 10:40-41 1
  
  Deuteronomy 2:
  
  33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.
  34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain
  
  Deuteronomy 20:
  
  16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
  17 Completely destroy them - the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusite - as the LORD your God has commanded you.
  
  Joshua 8:
  24 And it came to pass when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the wilderness where they pursued them, and when they all had fallen by the edge of the sword until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned to Ai and struck it with the edge of the sword.
  25 So it was that all who fell that day, both men and women, were twelve thousand - all the people of Ai.
  26 For Joshua did not draw back his hand, with which he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.
  
  Joshua 6:20:
  20 When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city.
  
  Joshua 6:21:
  21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.
  
  Elisha and the youths:
  2 Kings 2: 23-24
  23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, "Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!"
  24 So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the LORD. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.
  
  I will leave this with you. I no longer wish to waste my time posting in response to your replies. I was spending my time before and from this point on I would be wasting it. So I won't be providing you with anymore means.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  damn, that's alot to type out, good work, glad to see you crossed the t's and dotted the i's. They'll have no come back for this one, that's alot of verses, you might as well have just sent him a copy of the bible on PDF format
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do you have a special bible lined up with quotes for all occasions, I might want one of those for my birthday?
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Here's one location that might help.
  http://www.e-sword.net/downloads.html
  It has some good features, like serch for words/phrases. Copy and paste etc. Works well.
  Happy Birthday
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, I want to give these blasphemers some good words to live by but I need something so I can pull it out quick, like a cowboy with two six shooters, bang, bang, bang!
  Oh its not quite my birthday yet, but you can check out Cris A on that, he's about to get a little wiser
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  Cris Aposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  I see the link now! My, aren't we ready for some heavy shootin'! Hell yeah!
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  hell's mutha f yeah, I'm gonna blast me some blasphemers!
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Cris Aposted 14 years ago
No comment here... just passing through
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  c'mon man, its fun, you can say anything you want and most certainly someone will insult you for it. Also its funny to see how angry people get when it seems that the message should be "be kind to one another" in any religion
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  Cris Aposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Seems we have differing views on what is fun! If you call this fun, then you're a sadist just like God (not my own views, just quoting somebody else)! Ooops now i'm in hot water... which i dont mind, it;s quite relaxing!
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  Zarm Nefilinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your fun. (or..?)
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Call me the Marquis himself. And hot water is good for the muscles. People sure are inspired around here, I wish it would rub off on me, I'd be able to write my book already.
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  Cris Aposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Somebody said "bring it on"! Now I think I'll stay awhile this should be... hmmm... entertaining.
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Cris Aposted 14 years ago
i've always believed in the phrase... the more the merrier! so this is gonna be the good, the bad, the ugly, and the mob!
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am going to put on my Rocky music, get myself pumped up
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  Cris Aposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think you got me worried, what's your weapon of choice if you don't know your Bible? I hope Pest gets here with some quotes but I am not certain where he'd get those from, definitely not the Bible! LOL
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh I know my Bible, but I got my own thoughts, no need to quote the King James version of "the truth".
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  Cris Aposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Okay that sounds good enough. I wonder what's taking them so long...probably the essays!
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yeah, I was wondering about that myself, for a second I thought we ruined another forum. But I saw another hot one come through.
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  Teresa McGurkposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, guys: following your little "asides" cracked me up.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  these people are writing essays, I'm glad I'm out of school and don't have to do that anymore. But I'm thinking of writing an essay on Why God Created the Marijuana plant and another one, Why God gave us the minds to invent Beer.
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Onusonusposted 14 years ago
Consider for a moment, the fulfillment of the words of a prophet; Because we see that darkness covers the earth and gross darkness covers the minds of the inhabitants thereof, that crimes of every description are increasing among men; vices of great enormity are practiced; the rising generation growing up in the fulness of pride and arrogance, the aged losing every sense of conviction and seemingly banishing the thought of a day of retribution, intempreance, immorality, extravagence, pride, blindness of heart, idolatry, loss of natural affection, the love of this world, and indifference toward the things of eternity increasing among those who profess a belief in the religion of heaven and infedelity spreading itself in consequence of the same; Men giving themselves up to commit acts of the foulest kind, and deeds of the blackest dye, blaspheming, defrauding, blasting the reputation of neighbors, steeling, robbing, Murdering, , advocating error, and opposing the truth,forsaking the covenant of heaven and denying the faith of Jesus- and amid all of this, the day of the Lord fast approaching when noone except those who have on the wedding garment will be permitted to eat and drink in the presence of the bridegroom, the prince of peace!
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So you're saying don't be a whoremonger? What else would I do for fun?
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Try working at the Aids clinic in Africa. That is what whoremongers wreak. Maybe you would like to do teenage counseling to young kids who see suicide as the answer to their herpes or pregnancy caused by whoremongers. Perhaps you would like to work a domestic violence center where some whoremonger with no regard for any other human went a little (yes just a little) further.
  
  Disregard for the fellings of others by whoremongers is revolting. Some jokes are far too distasteful to be deemed civilized, much less funny. Some people are unwilling to make the world a better place. We call them whoremongers. Yecch!
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  some babies are born with Aids, did they whoremonger? why does God punish them? I also think I would make a terrific teenage counselor, I could show them the ropes on many a good thing, rollling joints, gettin' the bums to buy you beer, you would trust me with them, right? I'm happy to know I am revolting, my wife says the same thing, you been talkin' to my wife lately?
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Illogic at its highest...
  
  Even in our society, that would land you life in prison, as is well deserved.
  
  If your children grow up to be whoremongers (and the next four generations), don't blame God. He told you so.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I would be proud to see my kids gettin' sex on a regular basis. I blame God for many things, but whoremongering isn't one of them. Can I blame God for earthquakes that kill thousands, hurricanes that kill thousands, tsunami's that kill thousands, or is that out of his control, or is he just flexin' his muscles like Arnold Shwarzeneger, if that's the case I'm sure many would settle would settle for a good poster of him flexin', that would be enough proof for me.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Unfortunately God created men who are worthless. If every capable person reached out to others in need, I am condfident the porblems in this world would virtually disappear. However, some are too self centered and cynical to give any help. They just blame God. I blame them.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have to say, I am as worthless as the next guy, but at least I know my worth. The path to enlightenment begins with knowing you are nothing.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I know what you are saying, and I share that self assessment. You seem to me to have a lot of worth. I think you are a joker who is probably quite a good guy. Humility is indeed one of the greatest attributes of a good man. God is a great way to benchmark ourselves. Great point.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Don't go telling lies about me being a good guy! That is offensive!
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  See I knew you were all right. You have read the character of the gang here perfectly. Having me like you guarantees they won't. So, I'll take it all back, lol.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, I thought you were going soft on me, and that's not a sexual reference.
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  mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nice line,one needs to drop all his ego for enlightenment.
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Junksterposted 14 years ago
In my book Religion is quite often the cause of most conflicts and problems.

That's not denying that many people take comfort in believing the polar opposite
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needful thingsposted 14 years ago
Cool thread... Hahahahahahaha!!!

A bus driver (I was on my way to Baguio City, Philippines. The bus was a Victory Liner) once told me that he respected faith... even blind faith... but in the end it is doubt that gets you an education. That's one pretty smart man, if I may say so.

He proceeds to ramble this tale:

A storm struck a village somewhere in Surigao, Philippines. It was one hell of a storm that the water level rose quickly and flooded the town forcing the villagers to the roofs of their homes. Damn that storm.

One by one the villagers were swept by the waves without mercy until only a handful of people were left on the roof of the church. The village priest was with them.

"Oh high and mighty Priest. Please call upon the Lord Our God to save us from certain death." cried the wet, cold and miserable villagers.

So the priest prayed hard. He knelt and clasped his hand to his chest and cried to the Lord, "Oh Holy and Mighty One please bring forth the power of your Kingdom and save us from this goddamn storm."

A few minutes later, a military raft came putputputing... towards them. At once the soldiers in the boat assisted the remaining villagers into the raft. The priest remained.

One of the villagers implored, "Father come now we are saved."

"I will wait for the Lord to save me my son. It is written in the bible that he who waits shall reap the rewards." replied the priest. And so the boat left .

The water started rising... slowly but rising still. The priest continued to pray for deliverance.

"Oh Son of God... come down from the heavens and save me from the rising waters so that all may know the power of your salvation etc.. etc..."

A military rescue helicopter scanning the area for survivors saw the priest kneeling on top of the church roof with the water up to his knees. The captain veered the copter and hovered on top of the priest. An army frogman jumped down to get the priest.

"Father grab my hands so I can carry you to safety" shouted the frogman.

To which the priest replied. "No my Son... the Lord will rescue me from this storm."

"Father grab my hand the storm is picking up again." cried the frogman

"Shut up you Idiot. The Lord will be here any moment now." shouted the priest.

The winds were getting stronger but still the priest won't budge. Having no choice the frogman was hoisted up and the helicopter left.

The one-hell-of-a-storm became a f***ing storm that covered the entire village with water thereby drowning the priest.

The priest woke up among the clouds. He saw the heads with wings flying about playing the harps with their teeth. He was so outraged because he knew he was dead. He stood up and saw the door marked "GODFATHER OFFICE". He marched inside and confronted God.

"What kind of God are YOU. I prayed and prayed and you didn't come to rescue me." shouted the priest.

"But my son I tried to rescue you. Didn't you see the military boat I sent?" God mildly said.

"What boat!!!1??? I went through the rosary like what a hundred times... and still you didn't come!!!" roared the priest.

"Bloody hell... I heard you. That's why I went there myself on the helicopter jumped down to grab you. But you wouldn't come. You even called me an Idiot. WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU EXPECTING A GOLDEN CHARIOT PULLED BY THOSE BLASTED FLYING HEADS OUTSIDE???" retorted God.

"Lord... what fools these mortals be..." mumbled God while removing His frogman costume.

###

Blinding ignorance and faith does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!
(sorry I forgot the bloke who said this... a turtle named Leonardo, I think)

P.S. I think the priest was Christian
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  Teresa McGurkposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There is often great wisdom in humor, as here. Thank you, Needful Things! Doubt is one of the surest paths to new knowledge, while "certainty" breeds complacency.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I luv, luv, luv this story!
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viralprospectorposted 14 years ago
Zarm;

Here is your reply. I will not go back to your initial promises of what you would deliver here, but you should.

1. "So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. And Joshua smote them from Kadesh-barnea even unto Gaza, and all the country of Goshen, even unto Gibeon." Joshua 10:40-41 1

This passage, and its surrounding text, has many great lessons in it. I am so glad that you selected it for your study, so you can learn. First, this is a war. Does that sound familiar? This war was between those who followed God and those, i.e. Canaanites who worshipped false Gods. In that light, the destruction of the Canaanites by Joshua showed all that the gods of the Caananites were indeed false. That is an excellent lesson to ponder today, don’t you think.

There is another good lesson on why God favored Joshua. Joshua was a man of honor. This was born out when enemies of his people, the Gibeonites, came to Joshua for help. They had joined the Amorite coalition of enemies of Joshua and his people. However, as is typical of evil coalitions, all these groups were stabbing each other in the back. I find evil coalitions to be a very fitting analogy of all this, as I have been writing here. He could have deceived them and let them be wiped out. Joshua fought and conquered them himself instead of winning a coward’s victory. Morale would certainly suffer under such a leader.

Also, in this passage, God’s faithfulness to fulfill His promises is revealed. God promised Joshua victory. He told Joshua not to fear. God sent a huge hail storm to the battle to make this victory a success. Joshua had marched his warriors 25 miles over difficult terrain to the battle out of belief in the Word of God. For that, his people were rewarded with victory.

The reason I love Joshua is that is the book of great miracles. The Jordan was parted and Jericho was won by obedience to God to march and blow the horns. Also the sun and moon stood still. Again, faith hardly seems an illusions or invention.

If one did not know better, this lesson might show that faith is in fact not just a hypothesis. It is in fact very real today, just as it was then for Joshua and his people. Joshua accomplished what countless leaders before him could not do, or should I say God did…This is not intended to endorse war. In fact, I hate battles or even this inane wordsmithing. This has many purposes, though, one of which is to show that the Bible is much, much deeper than a cursory look at a scripture or two.

It is funny that you will likely say that this is just made up. Well, if so, why did you present it to me? What I still claim is that the Bible is 100% infallible. However, one must know the Bible to be able to conclude its worth.

2. Deuteronomy 2:

33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.
34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain

This is a good lesson, too. First, it is important to note that things are a little different today than 3415 years (almost to the day – so again this is a good study for us now) after the Book of Deuteronomy opened. Yes, this was an uncivilized time. The people had been wandering for 40 years on what was to be an eleven day journey due to their sinfulness.

Deuteronomy is home of the Ten Commandments. Just for fun, see if you can tell them to yourself right now… Deuteronomy was mostly written by Moses who lived to be 120 years old, but never saw the people enter the promised land. That aside, here is my view of this passage you posted.

Again, this is war. This war occurred after Sihon, an Amorite King refused the people peaceful passage through his land. So, the people went by force in obedience to God. Again, the Bible is clear that crossing the Jordan was destined by God.

The key word in this passage, that may have you hung up, is destroyed. The Hebrew word had the connotation of giving them over to the Lord or separating from their roots, although it also could mean utterly destroying them, too. The point of the word is that these people did not live in disobedience to the Lord any more. I was not there 3415 years ago to know all the fine details of this, but there are countless works of study of these times. I recommend them to you, so you can see that this was not dissimilar to the Middle East today in essence. That word charam, I recall, is subject of debate even among the Christian community. It does not interest me that much, so I do not know which translation to use.

3. Deuteronomy 20:

16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
17 Completely destroy them - the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusite - as the LORD your God has commanded you.

Cliff Notes are an awful way to study the Bible. That is so weak when you cannot even read the next verse. I will use the KJV, since you have sued it for your post, even though there are many better updated translations. The answer lies in Deuteronomy 20:18:
“"lest they teach you to do according to all their abominations which they have done for their gods, and you sin against the LORD your God.”

The option here was to go through all this tribulation, just to end up in another polluted cesspool, just like they were fighting to eliminate. Liken it to the battle between America and Muslim terrorists today. The fight is really not against the men; the fight is against the root of the problem. The Quran commands its followers of Islam to kill all infidels, so the battle is to stop people from believing such an insane thing. How could anyone believe a book with such hogwash in it? The Bible, by contrast, commands us to not kill. Hint, that was in that Ten Commandment list.

Many people who have never studied the Bible get confused by this. God commanded people of ancient times to end long standing battles against corruption and evil. Those were one time commands to people thousands of years ago. No ongoing command exists today except “thou shalt not kill”. Does that mean that nations will not defend themselves against terrorists? No. Wars today are not fought for God. The fight against Muslim terrorists is to eliminate the threat to America. I see no threat that anyone could believe a book that commands its followers to kill all those who do not believe it. However, if called, yes, I will fight for America in a just cause (key being a just cause).

4. Joshua 8:
24 And it came to pass when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the wilderness where they pursued them, and when they all had fallen by the edge of the sword until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned to Ai and struck it with the edge of the sword.
25 So it was that all who fell that day, both men and women, were twelve thousand - all the people of Ai.
26 For Joshua did not draw back his hand, with which he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.

All the previous comments I made about variable translations and ancient times apply to this passage, too. I see that this post from you, Zarm, was obsessed with war. It is easy to rectify all of this in the context of world history, particularly of ancient times. Again, it is far more prudent to be alarmed with that very real threat that exists today, Muslim terror.

5. Joshua 6:20:
20 When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city.

Hallelujah, here is the Lord doing miracles to show His faithfulness. Not a shot was fired, not even a stone was thrown and the walls came tumbling down. Praise the Lord!

6. Joshua 6:21:
21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

Again, my previous comments apply to this war. Remember that Joshua had sought a treaty with the Canaanites, but they refused. Noah had correctly prophesied this, too. This was an evil vicious regime. While not intended as an exact comparison, liken them to the Nazis. Who in their right mind thinks that evil should prevail?

No, today, it would not seem logical to go to such extreme extent to rid a population of evil ways. Again, the key lies in the word charam and the difference between now and ancient times. Remember God had promised the Israelites the promised land. His promise was the not going to be broken, not that that is any more than one aspect of all of this. I tried to take a stab at fully explaining this, but after page 20, I abandoned that idea. It is really the story of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. It is nonsense to paraphrase it much more than I have done.

7. Elisha and the youths:
2 Kings 2: 23-24
23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, "Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!"
24 So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the LORD. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.”

This is a tough passage, one that all Christians need to understand (not that it is much more than a weapon for atheists). On the surface, this is no big deal. Some guy sinned by cursing some kids. What is the significance of that that it should be included in the Bible? Well, the sinner was Elisha, one of my favorite peaceful heroes of the Bible (except for this).

The point of this passage is that, no matter how great we all think we are, we are just lousy sinners. God is Great. Elisha did an awful thing, but he repented. He is a real example that it is not too late to make something of yourself. Yes, God does use bad for good within His perfect plan. Nowhere does it imply that God was behind this or condoned it. Rather, God knows our hearts. When we realize the real truth, He is right there for us. Elisha could have fallen to ruin, like somany others who we do not remember.

“I will leave this with you. I no longer wish to waste my time posting in response to your replies. I was spending my time before and from this point on I would be wasting it. So I won't be providing you with anymore means.”

Well, you pull out a few Cliff Notes that every atheist can pull off an anti Chjristian website in a couple of minutes. Then, you leave me to condense several hundred pages of the Bible into a focused response to your concerns. Sorry, Zarm, but my crap detector is far too keen to be fooled. You know you cannot win because you do not know the book you criticize. I am but a novice compared to the doctors and masters of theology. However, the issues I struggle with are unknown to you all. I do not fear one bit that anyone here can expose a flaw in the Bible, since I know there is not one.

I will leave you with this conclusion. Come by my hub any day. I will not spam this forum with a link. You can find it. It is called stump the RFRWC. I created it so that anyone can come to neutral ground and get answers or just have dialogue. You see, I am not all that eager to have to spend 100 times as much time answering these elementary posts as for you to post them. Only then, am I faced with totally illogical and foolish replies from others piling on. Many will tell you that I am sincere in welcoming you to come by and post any concern you have. You see, I run a nonprofit that helps over 10,000 people a year with issues from domestic violence, prison reentry, homelessness, unemployment, you name it. We are over 14 years old, not that you care. But I do…

I wish you peace and understanding. I truly do hope you can learn to hold your keyboard while you cool down. Believe me, I understand being angry in defense of your inner feelings. It just does not help to insult someone who you have no clue about, though.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My attention span was too short for that one, got some cliff notes for that
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needful thingsposted 14 years ago
A good thing I read "Chariot of the Gods" by Eric Von Something....

"However, the issues I struggle with are unknown to you all. I do not fear one bit that anyone here can expose a flaw in the Bible, since I know there is not one. " - Now there is your flaw.

Knowing only two sides of the coin is knowing nothing at all. <--- come to think of it I also forgot who wrote this.

That would make the Torah and the Koran look like a scam would it?

Don't worry I'm a believer just exercising his greatest gift - FREE WILL
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Huh... I guess we must now compare apples and oranges or something?
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needful thingsposted 14 years ago
Of course... how can you know what an apple is if you don't know what an orange looks like.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That sounds like an extension of the tongue and cheek expansion.
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needful thingsposted 14 years ago
"It is painfully obvious to me that it is absolutely critical to be taught what to think." - Probably the root of the Israel Palestine conflict.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely not...
  
  I can think of much better examples, but we have had enough inflammatory writing here already. Education is the most fundamental right of all humans. It is in fact the key to reaching a higher level of society. No person can correctly minimize its importance.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Education is the death blow to religion, I'm totally against that.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You couldn't be further from the truth.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Science is the bad guy to religion. I mean where do we start creationist theories vs. big bang? Please write an essay on that one.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Here is my essay.
  
  You are crazy.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You just insulted God, because he made me that way.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely not and absolutely not.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Who created me then? According the Bible, God is creator and is all knowing, surely he knew if I was a walking malfunction, he would take me out of production, in fact, he would have made my Dad sterile, so when he shot me into my Mom, there would be no Me.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  God did not create anyone that way. He made us in His image, but we fell short. He sent Jesus and gave us the Bible and the Holy Spirit to fix it up. He lets you call your own shots. All that is in the Bible. If you read and study it, you will know and quit making such statements, I feel confident. Good luck with that.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If a car maker builds a crappy car, I want a refund, and I want him to stop making crappy cars. I don't want a bunch of spare parts and a sticker that says "Good Luck". If he can't build cars that can't even drive off the lot, why build 'em, to take up real estate?
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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needful thingsposted 14 years ago
Nope... I don't want my tongue extended.
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Mishaposted 14 years ago
Again, you are getting all personal VP
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Go back to jacking off then. Oh I don't want to call you a pervert, though, or be accused of getting personal. What about your boy MK? What about all his insults? Why were you silent, Misha? Double standard maybe? Maybe you don't erven know what I am talking about with that empty mind of yours. Same old story, none...
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I hope you don't go Columbine on us. Quick boys, clear the decks, he's gonna blow!
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wow, how does left field feel?
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Great, there's a nice sunny breeze out here.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sounds great. I have nothing better to do than than trade posts because I do not want to go work outside where we have icy rain. Tomorrow is supposed to be nice, so I won't be a pest for long.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Education - its a wonderful thing.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You can command your own followers, whom you taught what to think. I can do just fine without your instructions
  
  And thanks for the compliments about empty mind - in most religions it is considered to be a prerequisite for enlightenment, so this should mean something coming from you
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That is not correct. You refer to meditation, but that is living in the moment. Mediation is probably not taught by most religions either. Enlightenment should never be confused with ignorance, much less masturbation. It is so absurd that you are going this route with this. You start with jacking off, then want me to take seriously your idea of enlightenment?
  
  I notice that only will not you take directions from me (even though I was not really giving them), but you will also not answer why you hold to a choldish double standard. Aren't you man enough to call things accurately? That seems very unjust and something that would not allow you to achieve nirvana.
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  SweetiePieposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Now this comparison is just a little gross.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, and that is why I took a shot at it. You will need to read back a few pages to see where this started. I intended to make exactly the same point you did.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Prayer is a form of meditation, along with "getting to know one's self"
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  mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  True prayer helps one in concentration which is what meditation is all about.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Man, do I concentrate, I can "meditate" in two minutes if I try real hard.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How do you know that I was referring to meditation? Masturbation gives the same effect, give it a try
  
  And what double standards did you mean? My boy did not call you crazy
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You refer to meditation, but that is living in the moment. Mediation is probably not taught by most religions either.
  Meditation or yoga is union with god. Every religion teaches meditation.Its the bottom line.
  Why would christian monks isolate themselves in monastries difficult to reach?
  To meditate.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I thought the Monks just like hanging out with "the guys" if you get my drift.
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  mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  get it
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  maestrowhitposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  how can a person who types this kind of stuff call themselves a humble follower of Christ?
  
  I mean, this one post alone shows enough un-christlike qualities to completely invalidate everything you have to say - ever.
  
  You're living on two sides of the fence. You need to pick one. You're either an EXAMPLE of what you preach so relentlessly. OR be a PREACHER of what you behave like. Because you are neither of those. How can you delude yourself to think your words have any merit whatsoever when you behave this way? You make a laughing stock of yourself.
  
  However, if you didn't pound Jesus and God and the Bible down people's throats, your behavior would be completely understandable - because you wouldn't be saying one thing and doing the opposite.
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Onusonusposted 14 years ago
Toad, all dificulties which might and would cross our way must be surmounted. though the soul be tried, the heart faint, and the hands hang down, one cannot afford to retrace their steps, there must be decision of character. The faithful do not murmer in their affliction, but are thankful for God's goodness.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Man, that is deep, reminds me of Whitman. So for the people that are not murmering about God and are gettin' all heated up, what does that say about them? If my foundations were of concrete, surely, I would not get bothered by a little breeze.
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  Onusonusposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Toad,Not bothered in the slightest, but there is a truer principle which oversteps little flaws of mortal men; the unresounding principle of love, not to be confused with the common misconseption of, "In love." But unconditional love which does not go without it's diversity, and adversity for that matter.
  Somewhat like the scriptoral phrase "Broken heart and contrite spirit." in regards to repentance. What is a broken heart? It's not given to mean dissapointment or sorrow, but rather like a horse who has been broken to the will of it's master, a good one, one who will not drive it off a cliff, but lead it to water.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Is that a Doors song? Or U2?
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needful thingsposted 14 years ago
What about the Koran and the Torah?

"Religion encysts past mythologies; guesses, hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, pronouncements made in search of personal power, all mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always an unspoken commandment: Thou shalt not question! We break that commandment daily in the harnessing of human imagination to our deepest creativity." - from some book Dune I think

Apples, oranges, two sides of a coin... remember?
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The three books do not coexist - all being correct. The Bible is clear that the only path is Jesus. Both of those books totally contradict Christianity in some components. The Torah does not include Jesus, so I disregard it myself. The Quran tells its followers to kill all others, so I disregard it, and I think erveryone should disregard that type of command (along with other reasons). While I believe the Bible is 100% correct, the Quran is not a book of that calibre, in my opinion anyway.
  
  However, the unspoken commandment does seem an oxymoron, doesn't it? I think that was intended to imply more anyway. No one here is pushing anyone to believe Christianity. It seems to me that, if anything, it is the other way around. I will do that, but I prefer what I perceive to be neutral ground.
  
  Am I getting your point? If you are saying idfferent religions are the flip sides of the coin or the apples and oranges, then the Bible says that is false, even idol worship in most cases. The Torah is a unique case, though, since I do believe the Old Testament to be 100% correct, just an incomplete work.
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  mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What is idol worship? The same way you have statues of Christ? The idea or what becomes wrong is to look at the idol as the end .One must look at the qualities of that idol and try becoming that.The messenger and his message.
  
  The Holy Quran, Holy Bible and Holy Bhagwat Gita are identical .
  Ego or attachment to ones religion is showing lack of understanding God and a war like attitude.
  
  Do unto others as you would have others do unto you-Jesus
  Would you like it if a Hindu or Muslim says the Bible is not correct?
  
  There have been many messenger of the light and Jesus like Mohammed or Krishna was one of them.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh man, Jesus like Mohammed? Didn't they talk about that during the crusades?
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SweetiePieposted 14 years ago
I am not taking any sides on the forum, I could care less about circular arguments where no one wins. Here is what I would suggest: let us try not compare meditation to masturbation, and remember there are nicer ways to make your points .
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SweetiePieposted 14 years ago
Misha I do not care what you say, that is fine. I was just grossed out by VP comparison.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What? I made no such reference. I thought you were not taking sides. Well, I guess that was just irresistable to make an incorrect statement to indict me? Too much...
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  SweetiePieposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not taking sides, but the comparison was gross. There is an extreme difference.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL Sweetie, I don't mind you saying whatever you want
  I just think you are too sensitive for that thread, it would have been wiser to stay aside
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  SweetiePieposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  VP is quoting something you said and I was just responding. However, I did not even see where you said this in the original comments.
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  goldentoadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm guilty but you will never catch me, if the glove don't fit, you must acquit. I'm off to go supervise now, catch you guys later. Can you believe they put a guy like me in charge of anything?
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, no one will catch me on here saying I enjoyed our conversation...
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Why did you converse then? Masochism?
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, it goes back to me not wanting you to think I like Goldentoad for fear you will not. It loses its punch (albeit very minimal) when translated.
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, you see them now because I posted them. Why didn't you look back as I suggested. I said almost exactly what you just said, and you criticize me. This is fair?
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  SweetiePieposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Intial reaction, let it go. I am looking back now and I see it is a discussion between all of you.
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Onusonusposted 14 years ago
Paul McCartney!
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Mishaposted 14 years ago
I feel left out of the party

*goes back to study American culture*
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Cand Mountian! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsGYh8AacgY... religion is like Candy Mountian.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sandy, your link does not work
  Was it the same as in your last hub?
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Really? last hub? Which last one?
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5im0Ssyyus that should fix it.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yep, it's exactly the same. What happened to the unicorn at the end?
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I want to know what happen to the magical leoplurodon! Shun the non- believer, shun.
  
  They took Charlies kindney.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Did they take his kidney, too?
  
  j/k, so you don't think I am crazy
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  crazy about tacos?
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL this one http://hubpages.com/hub/Funny-Ass-Stories
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No amount of studying will help on this one Misha. You would be better off studying medieval myths.
  
  Although - I lost track - am I supposed to be your boy or some one else's?
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I guess mine - at least according to viralinfector
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viralprospectorposted 14 years ago
Teresa;

You say "there is a real difference between education (e- Latin, "out of," and ducare, "to lead") and rote learning. The first encourages individual thought, and the professor questions the students, encouraging them to think for themselves. This is the basis for higher education and is found in universities around the globe, where thought must be original; where the repetition of received ideas is viewed as shoddy practice, at best."

I cannot buy that one. The thought does not have to be original to be valid whatsoever. Who has original thought? How would anyone know whether someone else had it? No, that does not fly. Learning is not shoddy practice either jusat because someone thinks they should just be original. I find that disgusting. It would negate all existing knowledge that could not be assimilated by the time they got to college. Those are personal value judgements at best, and thankfully not widely applied practice.

"Then there is another kind of learning, or training, where students are encouraged (as, say, at the high school level, or in technical colleges) to reproduce a set of known facts in order to build on that training; where the repetition of received ideas is important if one is to learn the correct way something is done. This is vital in many fields of endeavor."

And there is nothing wrong with that.

"I draw the distinction because you are perhaps confusing the two? That would be as confused as saying that higher education in universities is all right-brained and training in tech colleges is all left-brained -- when all education beyond the undergraduate level, no matter the institution, stresses a whole-brained approach to seeking, synthesizing, and analyzing information."

I cannot grasp that analogy at any rate, I'm sorry. While we perhaps differ in our opinions of how to achieve ultimate progress on education, I am not sure I see your point.
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  Teresa McGurkposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  -- ViralP:
  thank you for taking the time to read my reply. Yes: there is a body of knowledge (not thought) that is known, because it is fact. That is a given. There is also the validity of coming to the same conclusions in thought as someone else, in the same manner, but at a different time, in a different location, independently -- that is also a given. There is, indeed, nothing new under the sun, and we reinvent the wheel every time we think we have a "new" story to tell, because someone else has surely beaten us to it. That is also a given, and I'm sorry if I did not phrase my assertions clearly: in higher education, the student is encouraged to think independently, and any rehashing of other people's ideas must be carefully documented, so that it can be seen where the other's ideas end, and the student's continue -- continue to a new conclusion or a new insight. Having taught at the university level since 1984, I can categorize work I would get from students into two piles: one pile told me that Emily Dickinson was born in Amherst, Mass., in 1830, and that she attended Mount Holyoke. . . and would continue in this vein, documenting sources and recounting the main facts of the poet's life and work. Ok.
  
  Now, the other pile would be papers that did something radically different, and they were by far the better papers -- because they would examine, say, one of Dickinson's poems from a new perspective, disagreeing with the critics, sometimes, and producing a piece of work that was original in that it was not material we covered in class, not was it material the student had read somewhere. It was the student's own inferences drawn from his reading, independently. It was original thought.
  
  Back to your reply: I ended my post with this --
  
  "I draw the distinction because you are perhaps confusing the two? That would be as confused as saying that higher education in universities is all right-brained and training in tech colleges is all left-brained -- when all education beyond the undergraduate level, no matter the institution, stresses a whole-brained approach to seeking, synthesizing, and analyzing information."
  
  and you replied:
  I cannot grasp that analogy at any rate, I'm sorry. While we perhaps differ in our opinions of how to achieve ultimate progress on education, I am not sure I see your point.
  
  and I conclude:
  --Hell, yes, I'll be damned if I don't agree with you, here: it was a lousy and confusing analogy. I was just wondering whether right- or left-brained thinking had anything to do with this whole debate, and it just crept in. . .
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Teresa;
  
  I'd say we are on the same page. Thank you for taking the time to explain. I guess I am still confused about an earlier post of yours that seemed to me to be critical in nature, maybe against people on this thread. Maybe I was just being overly sensitive at the time, though.
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  Teresa McGurkposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yep -- you did not miss my meaning, I was reading through all the posts and had gotten rather irked by what appeared to be cant in some of them, which always smacks of lazy thinking, something I really cannot abide. . .
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Onusonusposted 14 years ago
Mark, Don't you think Christianity has done any good for the world? I mean which of Jesus's teachings is the most inhumane to you?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nice.
  
  Sorry - please quote me saying one single word against jesus' teachings.
  
  But - by asking the question you did ask, you are some how implying that christians actually follow jesus' teachings.
  
  See that from the christians here?
  
  But feel free to point out some good that has come out of Christianity.
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Onusonusposted 14 years ago
I'm a Christian, Not saying I'm always at my best, but there are certainly those who have shown to me in the their past communications that their efforts are of good intent.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ummm.
  
  Not exactly a ringing endorsement. I was hoping you could show me some good examples of how 2,000 years of christianity has actually bought some positive changes as Jesus taught.
  
  You know - feeding the poor, housing the homeless, tending to the sick instead of selling them un-necessary drugs, loving those of a different religion - that sort of thing.
  
  I mean, your christian country is currently involved in occupying Iraq, resulting in the deaths of god-knows-how-many innocent civilians, is actively supporting Israel's attempts to wipe put the Palestinians. Your biggest financial institution is actively involved in the slave trade in the UAE.
  
  As is my own christian country.
  
  What use good intents?
  
  Or did you mean they were trying to spread the WORD?
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  viralprospectorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Mark;
  
  I am sure that is just a hypothetical remark about Christians doing good, right? Certainly no intelligent huiman could not know numerous examples. That would just be pure ignorance. You couldn't possibly be saying you do not know any. Well, just to be sure, you tell us a few examples of where Christianity has done some good. There is no 16 year old American that could not name at least a few. The location difference you have could not possibly cause that much of a gap in understanding, could it?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You will have to be more clear here I'm afraid. You seem to be saying that I should know some christians who have done some good in the world, and because you call yourself a christian, no matter how much anger and nastiness you spread, this proves that you are good also, and I should not differentiate between the two.
  
  Did I get that right?
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think VP's post was pretty clear. He said it was supposed to be hypotheical.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, so hypothetical christians are better than real ones?
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Onusonusposted 14 years ago
The United States has a secular military and government. And there are several organizations who feed the hungry, cloth the naked, house the poor in various countries all in the name of Christ.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Excellent. Well done. Thanks for that. Good old jesus' teachings really coming to the forefront there. No christians in the military or the government. Completely separate huh?
  
  Sheesh !
  
  Is that the best you can come up with?
  
  After 2,000 years, this is the best you can say?
  
  Seriously - please look through all my posts and see where I am knocking jesus' teachings. And please see if you can see perhaps just the occasional reference that suggests maybe, just maybe if christians actually followed his teachings, maybe, just maybe, things would be better.
  
  Instead of getting all defensive and scrambling around for non-existent demonstrations of what a massive change christianity has made to the world. "there are several organizations who feed the hungry, cloth the naked, house the poor in various countries all in the name of Christ."
  
  Big deal. You could say the same for a million other organizations that are in no way affiliated with christianity.
  
  And have these "several organizations," managed to expunge the misery and suffering spread in jesus' name?
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well could you send some of them my way? My fridge is bare, my clothes are old and I have trouble paying rent. Does that qualify, or do you have to live in Isreal being blown up by the hand that feeds them to qualify?
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