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If hell is real?

  1. SwordofManticorE profile image79
    SwordofManticorEposted 4 years ago

    Would it be fair to say that the sin of Adam had a greater impact on God's creation than the resurrection life of Christ?

    1. Paul K Francis profile image80
      Paul K Francisposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      I do not believe that hell is real. I realize that the existence of hell is a part of the faith of many people, so I do not push my beliefs on them - especially if I am wrong, I do not want to be responsible for any one else having the same problem at those pearly gates that I'll have. I am quite certain, though, that if there was ever any eternal damnation, It was completely eliminated by the resurrection. That's the power. Have a nice day.

    2. Chris Neal profile image77
      Chris Nealposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      No.

      1. SwordofManticorE profile image79
        SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        Really? And why is it not fair to say?

        1. Chris Neal profile image77
          Chris Nealposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          Because while Adam's sin (and Eve's sin as well) was the Fall of humankind, it's Jesus' Sacrifice that allows us to be with God forever, and that also pertains to everyone.

    3. kess profile image61
      kessposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      It is an unfair way to look at creation anyway, because Adam did not sin.

      1. profile image0
        Deepes Mindposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        Actually, Adam did sin. He was told not to eat the fruit from the tree. He ate the fruit from that tree. It was Adam's disobedience that led to everything happening. Eve might have done it first, but If Adam had not followed, everything would have been ok..

        1. Zelkiiro profile image95
          Zelkiiroposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          It's also important to keep in mind that, in the logical continuity of the story, Eve was tricked into eating the fruit, and because she did not have knowledge of evil, she would not realize she was being tricked. All she knows is that the snake said, "Oh, no, no, it's totally fine to eat that fruit." so, in her mind, it must be totally fine to eat the fruit--why would the snake say it was if it wasn't?

          Adam, however, was not tricked by the snake. Therefore, the fault was his and his alone.

          Oh, and the snake could talk and was somehow described as being the most intelligent animal (Monkeys? Dolphins? Rats? Nothin' but idiots.).

        2. kess profile image61
          kessposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          Well since you are happy to make Adam a sinner, you yourself will remain one....

          Understanding my friend , understanding  will gain you freedom.
          Jumping on the bandwagon and accusing Adam of Sin is what makes the world the world.

          1. profile image0
            riddle666posted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Bladder dash and scram is
            Standing under the oak
            Adam with the sin
            Eating eves fruit.

          2. profile image0
            Deepes Mindposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            And since you are happy to judge me a sinner (thus sinning yourself by avoiding what the scripture says about sinning) you will be one right with me..

            Understanding will also gain you freedom from passing judgment against others (especially other believers) too quickly.. Passing judgment on what others read is also what makes the world the world as well as keeps some Christians in a position of judgment by God for their judgment of others..

            1. kess profile image61
              kessposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              I wish you were being funny....

              You sin because you do not understand what sin is.

              I cannot sin when I call a sinner a sinner.
              I will sin when I call a righteous man a sinner.

              Adam was and always is righteous...
              You do doubt this.....and sin is the reason behind your doubt

              1. profile image0
                Deepes Mindposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                And what gives you the right to judge me as a sinner while you hold yourself as being righteous? I mean since you are casting stones at me, I can only assume that you are without sin and as such are not a sinner?


                Ok.. What is the definition of sin since I do not understand what it is?

                1. kess profile image61
                  kessposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  You are a little bit slow today...

                  The reason why I can rightly determine you as a sinner,
                  Is because you have determined Adam a sinner.
                  And my judgement is correct because your own words confirms it.

                  Since I have not made Adam a sinner, I myself is without sin.
                  And I cannot excuse your sin because you insist on making Adam a sinner.

                  So then to you, Adam Sin, I sin, and everyone else sins...
                  And with that Idea you feet is caught up in a web of sin.

                  To me Adam did not sin and no one else sins,
                  except those who insist on making Adam a sinner.

                  And With that My Judgement is righteous.

                  Now you ask me what is sin?
                  Sin is that which you use to ensnare every man including yourself.

                  So if you believe me, then you would not make Adam a sinner and yourself will be righteous also.
                  But when you disbelieve me...what else is left for you?

                  1. profile image0
                    Deepes Mindposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    So now you resort to personal attacks and insults to continue to make yourself seem superior.. Ok then.




                    So you're without sin? Totally? And all because you did not make Adam a sinner? Last time I checked, According to the bible, There is only one person who was born into this world and lived without sin



                    .Romans 3:23  (though this scripture might not be in YOUR Bible) states that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.. Soooo, in case you aren't clear on this (which I am assuming you aren't since, according to you, you are without sin), Unless you are proclaiming yourself to be the second coming of Christ, then you have also sinned. And what is the term for someone who has sinned? A sinner. Now the fact that you are stating that you are without sin, then you are contradicting that this scripture is stating. This would mean that wither the Bible is lying about all having sinned and fallen short, or that you are lying about being without sin (which lying, in itself is a Sin according to the bible)




                    No, your judgment is condemnation and a prideful attempt to elevate yourself to being higher and better than everyone else.. now, your judgment of me contradicts Matthew 7:1-5 (Which since you are able to judge then this muse not be in your bible either), so let me help you out..

                    Matthew 7:1-5
                    Amplified Bible (AMP)
                    7 Do not judge and criticize and condemn others, so that you may not be judged and criticized and condemned yourselves.
                    2 For just as you judge and criticize and condemn others, you will be judged and criticized and condemned, and in accordance with the measure you [use to] deal out to others, it will be dealt out again to you.
                    3 Why do you [a]stare from without at the [b]very small particle that is in your brother’s eye but do not become aware of and consider the beam [c]of timber that is in your own eye?
                    4 Or how can you say to your brother, Let me get the tiny particle out of your eye, when there is the beam [d]of timber in your own eye?
                    5 You hypocrite, first get the beam of timber out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the tiny particle out of your brother’s eye.





                    Now who is the slow one? I asked you what the definition of sin is and instead of giving me the definition of sin, you took that as an opportunity to take another shot at me.. Now, I looked up the word sin in the dictionary as well as biblically and nowhere in either one did it say that the definition of sin is "what DM uses to snare every man including himself".  According to websters dictionary, the definition of sin is

                    [b]1sin noun \ˈsin\

                    1. an offense against religious or moral law
                    2.  transgression of the law of God

                    Now  If memory serves me correctly, The bible stated that God made Adam and placed him in the Garden of Eden. He told Adam He could eat from any tree in the Garden Except the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He laid down the law. Then he created Eve. Now, according to the Bible, Eve was tricked into eating the fruit. She then gave it to Adam who made the choice to eat it when he noticed that nothing happened. When God appeared, He called out "Adam, Where are you". Adam was held accountable as well because he followed Eve in eating the fruit although God told Adam (the first creation) not to.. God laid down the law, Adam went against it.. biblically as well as by dictionary, this is considered a sin.. I haven't labeled Adam anything. I merely am pointing out the fact that even by biblical standards, this is what occurred. sorry if your limited understanding renders you incapable of understanding this fact.



                    If I believe you would not be righteous, I would be following you into the sin of judgment and condemnation of others..

                    When I disbelieve you, What is left for me? to continue to walk and live in my belief in God as well as in the examples that Christ laid out. Not right now I am not walking in this because I have chosen to respond in kind to what was thrown at me, which is wrong. thankfully, I can repent and get it right..

                    God bless you, Kess. I hope you understand that I have nothing further to say to you because the hypocrisy you have demonstrated in your responses is so mind boggling and condescending that I would rather not continue to speak with anyone (especially a so called Christian) that would sit in this much judgment. Then again, even if you don't forgive me, God will and that's who I answer to, so you have a good day

                  2. Jerami profile image74
                    Jeramiposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    I aghree with 96 or 71/2% of what you just said, I wuddentA said it thA way you did   but I wudda been hard pressed to have explained hIT any gooder than you just die!

              2. Chris Neal profile image77
                Chris Nealposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                Where do you get that Adam was always righteous? Had he always been righteous he wouldn't have been expelled from Eden.

                1. profile image0
                  Deepes Mindposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Now Kess is going to call you a sinner and tell you how he is without sin because he doesn't hold Adam accountable for committing a sin. the only thing I can remotely think of as to why he stated Adam did not sin is because he would state that Adam was tricked by the serpent and so it wasn't his fault.  "The snake made him do it by deceiving eve"

                  1. Chris Neal profile image77
                    Chris Nealposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    The devil made me do it, eh? Except of course that the Bible teaches quite clearly that we are responsible for our own actions, and if the story of Adam and Eve teaches us anything it's that God will not let us slide by blaming someone else.

                    I'm sorry to hear about your nephew, by the way.

        3. SwordofManticorE profile image79
          SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          Deeps, Has it occured to you the possibility that the snake is symbolic for Adam,s carnal nature? That maybe Adam was the one who put Eve up to eating the fruit first?

          1. profile image0
            Deepes Mindposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            I've considered a lot of possibilities, SOM. I may not have worded it that way, but You should know me well enough to know that some things I speak on is pulling from different things and may not always be my specific belief.

            1. SwordofManticorE profile image79
              SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              I know that you are a very open minded person Deeps, that is why I asked.

          2. Disappearinghead profile image78
            Disappearingheadposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Personally I go with the Jewish explanation of the Eve account, that is symbolic of the yetzer hara, the inner inclination to evil. Well the Jewish explanation seems much more plausible the the Christian version about literal talking snakes possessed by satan anyway.

            1. Chris Neal profile image77
              Chris Nealposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              We don't hold that satan possessed the snake.

              And if you read the account you also notice that the snake didn't slither at that point.

              1. Disappearinghead profile image78
                Disappearingheadposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                Very many Christians believe satan possessed the snake; how else could it talk?

                1. Chris Neal profile image77
                  Chris Nealposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Evangelicals believe that satan actually was the snake. I'll admit that when I think about it I can't find one simple solution to the question, they all have some problem.

                  1. profile image0
                    Deepes Mindposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    Yeah, I was taught the serpent was satan in disguise.

    4. Don W profile image83
      Don Wposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Do believe there was literally a man called Adam, a woman called Eve, a tree of knowledge, and a talking snake? Or is it possible that those things are symbolic? Literary devices used to explain something in the simplest terms perhaps? Maybe without the original authors even understanding that's what they were.

      1. SwordofManticorE profile image79
        SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        I will not rule that possibility out Don. I have also concidered it possible that Adam and Eve are symbolic for the creation of man's carnal nature.

        1. Don W profile image83
          Don Wposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          Sorry I didn't read through to your later post where you said that.

          Is the snake symbolic of carnal desire? Are Adam and Eve symbolic of early humanity? The tree of knowledge symbolic of some kind of loss of figurative innocence? They are described as becoming self-conscious (ashamed) of their nakedness. Is that symbolic of the emergence of human self-awareness? Is it possible that the narrative symbolically describes elements of humanity's biological history in ways that an audience circa 5000 BCE could identify with? I know some people believe there was literally someone called Adam and Eve, and I don't want to patronise or denigrate anyone's beliefs, but I do wonder whether the face-value narrative was meant to convey the basics of the message to audiences that were scientifically naive, leaving later audiences (like us) to discern other layers of meaning through understanding the symbolism. Same message, but a different level of detail that can be discerned at different stages in human understanding.

    5. Ericdierker profile image72
      Ericdierkerposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      SoM, this has been an awesome forum to follow. Good job on laying it out so well. I think that Genesis is a wonderful book that more folks should read. How can we even fathom the birth of our humanness. I like to think that I cannot. It is like looking at the Piet'a in St. Peter's in the Vatican. Or that funky ceiling. I just cannot imagine it's creation. How much more can I not understand a place called Hell or a garden called Eden. If someone felt a call to write this down for me, so I could have a smidgen of understanding, I thank them. Adam and Eve were cool folks, just like all of us. And all of us screw up. I do sometimes think that Adam and Eve messing up, did not create forgiveness from sin, but by example allows me to forgive myself. Heck those cool folks messed up, I messed up, now by golly goodness I will try to do better. Adam did not create a schism between me and my Lord. He led us to a place where we have a trial and error grounds upon which to learn to love.
      Are Adam and I in the Grace of the Lord? Yes but not by what we have done, but by which He has done and by that which is in our heart. Any man is relieved of his burden if his actions and his heart speak of love. Adam spoke of love by joining his love Eve. So at once he sinned and at once he loved.
      We are so freaking lucky and blessed to have love that the rest is damned near irrelevant.
      So no, my buddy Adam did not create such a divide that cannot be crossed but instead provided us with the opportunity to achieve a small bite at overcoming trials.

  2. janesix profile image60
    janesixposted 4 years ago

    I'm not sure I understand your question.

    But I think Hell is real, and it's right here.

    1. SwordofManticorE profile image79
      SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      In other words. Did Adams sin bring more of God's creation to eternal damnation than the cross could save?

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        I don't think so. I don't believe in eternal damnation though either. I believe we get a new chance with each incarnation.

        1. SwordofManticorE profile image79
          SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          That is eastern mysticism. I dont believe that to be part of God,s plan. I also dont believe in hell either. I believe we only live once in a physical body, and die once. Then comes judgment. The prodigal son is a clue to the mystery of all our judgments.

          1. janesix profile image60
            janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            What do you think God's plan is?

            1. SwordofManticorE profile image79
              SwordofManticorEposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              The prodigal son is the clue to the mystery of His plan. There are two sons. One who stayed the whole time with his Father and the other who went out to the world and eventually died and came back to his Father. We are the prodigal sons. This parable in my belief is Christ telling us that there were two possibilities. Many have asked if there is a God, why does He send us in this world filled with suffering instead of just keeping us in heaven? The answer is in the parable. The prodigal son was grateful to be back home with His Father and felt joy in his Fathers love for him, while the older son could not appreciate his Father or His love for him as much as his younger brother did. There are two tools created for us to have a better appreciation for our divine Father. Contrast and comparison.  Sin is something we must all experience so we see the contrast. Going back to God after living in this world is the comparison. Who appreciates new wealth more when given to him. A poor child or a rich child? A father in this world feels joy when his child shows love and affection for him, this is the same for God.

            2. Zelkiiro profile image95
              Zelkiiroposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              Obfuscate ignorance and allow evil to exist until a vague arbitrary date?

  3. psycheskinner profile image85
    psycheskinnerposted 4 years ago

    If hell is a deep pit, and Jesus is a small fence the sheep can easily jump over.  Well, yes--opening the pit is more momentous than erecting the fence.

  4. Jerami profile image74
    Jeramiposted 4 years ago

    If Adam and Eve were given free will; and If they alwayssss .. obeyed Gods instructions,  How would  "Anyone"  Ever, ever, ever know if they had free will or not?

    For free will to be proven ...  disobedience is a requirement.

    SOooo  Adam & Eve did not commit a sin by proving their free will.

  5. Caleb Glass profile image61
    Caleb Glassposted 4 years ago

    But in the beginning it wasn't about free will. Free will only came about after eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Thats where the free will came from.

    1. Jerami profile image74
      Jeramiposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Are you sayin that the free gift of "free WiLL  was by accident ?????

    2. Chris Neal profile image77
      Chris Nealposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      No, the free will came first, then the action.

      The sin was in disobeying God's direct order. The very act of having free will is not the sin, at least not the way I read the story. It was only when they committed the act of going against God's express command that they sinned.

      1. profile image0
        Deepes Mindposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        +1..

      2. Disappearinghead profile image78
        Disappearingheadposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        Perhaps the command not to eat was simply a test to establish between A&E and God when they were sufficiently mature in their minds to take responsibility for their own lives and actions. Rather than a fall which incidentally is a term Genesis does not use, perhaps it was one of the greatest steps in the birth of humanity.

        1. Chris Neal profile image77
          Chris Nealposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          Then why does history not ever once bear that out?

          And since when did you get so aquarian?

          1. Disappearinghead profile image78
            Disappearingheadposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Well what happened is history. The alternative utopian life of the GofE never actually worked out in the end. Was God taken by surprise at this? No. He saw the events unfold before creation. Thus if he wanted to prevent what is popularly called the fall he could have posted the firery angel at the gates of the GofE to prevent the talking snake gaining access in the first place, which would have still retained the principle of human free will intact. The fact that God did nothing to intervene but watched from the sidelines suggests his will was accomplished.

            Of course we are discussing these events here as though they were real literal reportage instead of an allegorical legend.

            1. Chris Neal profile image77
              Chris Nealposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              Why don't you simply call it Eden?

              Actually what you are stating is really not that different from many evangelical theologians and preachers. I'm just a little flummoxed at your previous question (I'm not sure whether it was an assertion on your part or simply a question) that somehow this was in preparation for man being able to take care of himself or something like that. Please forgive me but it's late, I just got off work and I am not ready to look for the original. Yes, I do believe it literally happened. It's not a sword I'm prepared to fall on but it is a belief I hold. Nor do I see God as particularly passive in all this.

              1. Disappearinghead profile image78
                Disappearingheadposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                GofE is quicker to type on an iThing than Garden of Eden.

                I think God did create man to take care of himself. We are not children that need his micromanagement of every detail of our lives. It's an indication of maturity to be self reliant but responsible for the decisions we take. By all means our Father is ready waiting for us to ask for direction for the big issues and ultimately he provides all our needs, but we are grown up adults and I think he just expects humanity to get on with life.

                An analogy might be that I would soon get rather irritated if my children, once grown up, phoned me up every day asking for this or that, to meet this need or that need (which they could readily sort out themselves), asking for my opinion on every decision, or whining because I'm not talking to them every five minutes.

                I can readily read the A&E account as an analogy of two children growing up, taking personal responsibility, working hard to make a living in order to build character, and being kicked out of the family home to make their own way in the World.

                1. Chris Neal profile image77
                  Chris Nealposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Gonna have to chew on that for a while...

                2. profile image0
                  Deepes Mindposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  I agree with this, DH. God did not create us in his image simply for visual looks. He also created us in his image so that we will have the power and ability to do some of the things for ourselves that some insist on going to him for. Some things we pray for his will to be done, but his will was already set in the beginning. There were some things he stated that were direct orders and do not require us to come back and ask him if it is ok.  There is a statement that I live by and have quoted here a few times.. The more you operate in principles, the less you need miracles.. Some of us (me included) at times want the miracle but don't want to operate in the principles that will get us what we are wanting, then get upset about not getting it.  This is why I have adopted another meaning to the scripture "faith without works is dead". Most of us know the meaning of the scripture is that our lives are supposed to reflect Christ and our belief in him. But I also look at that scripture as saying that we can pray to God all that we want for something, but if we aren't taking the steps (operating in principle) ourselves to get that thing, then we won't have it. I look at those parents that let their child die because they believed in faith healing and refused to get medical care.  They expected the miracle of healing but did not operate in the principle of seeking medical attention.

              2. profile image0
                Deepes Mindposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                I personally don't know where God stood in this, Chris, but it could be argued that God was passive in this particular time because he was testing Adam to see if he would disobey. Otherwise, it would beg the question of why God didn't step in and take the serpent out in order to protect Adam and Eve from messing up. It's questions like these that my mind pulls out that keeps me in a state of saying I dunno regarding some of these stories as well as look at some that give more of a basic explanation for something that could be vastly more complex than we can imagine (especially since it involves God)

                1. Chris Neal profile image77
                  Chris Nealposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Yeah, I agree.

 
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