Christians vs atheists

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   BritneyKnowlesposted 11 years ago

   I' have a strong belief in christianity and i still stop to think why people won't cross to christianity. And i'm not judging i just want to understand why people choose to be atheists. Leave clear answers, hate speeches will be dismissed. Cheers
   

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      MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Honestly, I don't believe it's Christianity. I believe it's Christians.
      
      The loudest of us tend to be the most judgmental, the most hypocritical and the most willing to demand we are right because of an interpretation that may or may not be correct.
      
      There is also the witnessing, which is honestly about as enjoyable as a telemarketing call and as subtle as a used car salesman. 
      
      Gandhi (Who, to me, epitomizes what a Christian should be) said it right:
      "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

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         BritneyKnowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Well said but not clear answer

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            MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I think it's pretty clear. Atheists won't come to Christianity as long as Christianity is full of Christians. No one wants to be associated with us.
            
            Hell, I don't want to be associated with us.
            
            There are many times that the people in my own faith have almost driven me away from Christianity.

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               BritneyKnowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Well that's very true. Some christians push other just because their not in their religion to make themselves superior but make my words just SOME.

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                  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Unfortunately, those SOME are the ones that are most vocal.  So they are our representatives to the world.  The Muslims have their Jihadists and we have Pat Robertson.  Both are equally destructive to their respective faiths.
                  
                  Christianity has become politicized. It is now largely synonymous with conservative politics. Many atheists find that repugnant.
                  
                  I find it repugnant.

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                     BritneyKnowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Well said my dear

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                     Mklow1posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     I partially agree. I think anytime you have people that talk the loudest about their ideas and try to convert others to it are hardliners that turn people off. Whether that is Christian, atheist, Muslim, or political parties.

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            gabgirl12posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Why do you ask, when you don't question it yourself? Why is the problem with atheists? I doubt you are really trying to understand anything. You're probably just looking for some 'lie' of the devil to pray about later. You can't understand, but you don't ask questions. You just accept what your religion tells you.

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      Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      There are a couple of reasons that people won't turn to Christianity in general, but since you are referring to atheists, I will give you a few reasons based on what I have gathered from some atheists here.
      
      1) Lack of evidence that can stand up to the scientific method and can pass a peer review. We Christians can say that we have the evidence that can prove beyond a shadow of doubt that God exists to us, but that evidence may not always be (and is not) sufficient enough to make atheists believe and convert
      
      2) The (I admit) contradictions (Which Zelkiiro was illustrating by pictures) in how God is portrayed in the bible. God is often seen as a loving, caring, benevolent father that will punish you by sending you to eternal torment in the fiery inferno of Hell if you don't obey him or believe in him..
      
      3) As Melissa and some others state, another big issue with Christianity is the vocal majority (who ironically is actually the general minority) of the people who Practice Christianity and act like they are the true representatives of the faith. There are some Christians (look in some of the forums here) that are so self righteous and pretentious with their beliefs and so convinced that their interpretation of the bible is the only real one that anyone (whether believer or nonbeliever) who disagrees with their interpretation is going to hell
      
      Hope this helps.. If you have more questions... ask an atheist...lol

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      Titen-Sxullposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I didn't choose to be an atheist and neither do most people. I became an atheist after several years of investigation and "soul-searching".
      
      My first step toward atheism was in reading the entire Bible without a pastor of priest there to spoon-feed me it's meaning. I wanted the "Word of God" to come alive, for God to speak to me. So I read the entire Bible, front to back, skipping only over the begat begat begat sections. It is said that the quickest way to make an atheist is to have a Christian read the Bible and I have to agree.
      
      After reading the Bible it didn't take long for me to make my way out of Christianity into a pseudo-religious phase where I, for a period of years, drifted between beliefs in a deistic god, reincarnation, a benevolent "FORCE" (think Star Wars), and even did a stint as a believer in ancient aliens. None of it stuck though and the more research I did into other religions and belief systems the less I believed in them. None of them had a shred of reliable evidence or logical argumentation to back them up and so, calling myself an agnostic, I realized I fit the definition of an atheist in late 2009.
      
      Why do people not cross to Christianity? Why am I an atheist? Because I spent the first 19 years of my life as a Christian and when I finally studied the religion I'd been brought up in I found I'd been lied to, Christianity crumbles under the slightest bit of honest skeptical scrutiny.

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   4. 61

      Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Over the time I've spent on hubpages one reason why seems to have come clear, that is hell. Certainly in the Pentecostal churches which I was a, member of, it was fear of hell that kept people believing, me included. Of course if you were to ask anyone they would say they believed because Jesus loved them and saved them. But always in the back of the mind is the fear that if they 'backslided' they would be sent to hell. It's a very powerful incentive. Eventually many come to reason via logical thought that this position is just silly. After all what kind of god torments for eternity those who happen to believe the wrong thing. Thus the whole belief system is brought into question and because so few Christians are there to agree the utter nonsense of many of the Church manmade doctrines, the person walks away.

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      Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I crossed out of Christianity because of thought. What makes sense? Is it real because I want it? What do we see from the natural world? Is Christianity testable? Is prayer testable? Why do all the religions think they are right?

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   6. 69

      JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I went the other way, and crossed from Christianity to atheism.  There were many, complicated reasons for losing my belief.  I maintain that you cannot CHOOSE what you believe.  If you think that someone chooses to be an atheist, ask yourself how easy it would be for you to choose to be a Muslim - or to choose to believe that gravity no longer exists.  You can't.
      
      Since I went to Bible college and was a missionary in Africa with my parents, I have quite a firm grasp on what the bible teaches - and how the church interprets it.  The thing that triggered my initial doubt was reading the bible from cover to cover multiple times.  It didn't make sense.  It was morally repugnant.  It was riddled with inconsistencies, historical inaccuracies and wildly improbable stories.  I was raised as a literalist, which means I was taught to believe everything in the bible absolutely as incontrovertible fact  - and that is simply not true. 
      
      From there, I learned Hebrew, Greek and Latin and read the bible AGAIN.  It has been mistranslated and misinterpreted for a couple thousand years.  Meanings have been altered to fit cultural norms.  Interpretations are as varied as the over 40,000 denominations.  God claims in the bible to "not be the author of confusion" but his word seems to be the epitome of it.  No one can agree, and if Christians can't even agree with themselves, how can anyone else be expected to?
      
      If Christians want atheists to cross to Christianity, they're gong to have to prove that what they're claiming is true, and they're going to have to answer difficult questions that they've spent several thousand years trying to avoid, spin or ignore.

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         Brenda Durhamposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         No they don't.   For one thing, I don't know of many Christians who try to avoid anyway;  they usually are perfectly able and willing to explain things;  the problem is that hard hearts refuse to listen to them at all.
         And a Christian's duty and desire is to tell a lost world of people that there is hope for forgiveness for their sins, because Jesus Christ died for them.
         The responsibility for listening to that message and choosing whether to believe or not is upon the atheist/nonbeliever.   
         True Christians don't want people to "cross over" as in making a religious decision to be a part of the Christian belief just for the sake of numbers or for the sake of proving their intellectual powers!    They want to see people give their hearts to the Lord,  to be born again spiritually,  to go to heaven and not hell.
         This is not like the Jehovah's Witness organization that tries to get more members for the sake of numbers and trying to legitimatize their religion,  to "cross over" as though changing one's clothes in the morning!   It's about eternity,  about trying to save souls from hellfire.
         And we have backup anyway,  the most powerful thing there is----the Holy Spirit.   Whether someone is willing to hear a Christian's pleas for their salvation or not,  the truth is that Jesus said if he was lifted up (crucified) that He would draw all men toward Him.    An earnest witness who's trying to persuade someone to get saved knows that the Lord's Spirit is right there with them,  ready and able to convince the sinners of their sins, and assuring them of His great Love for them.   Some people close their ears and minds and hearts.   That's not the fault of the Christian;  it's the fault of the stubborn sinner.

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            Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Britney: in response to your original question, this right here is a big part of why there are atheists and a huge part of why Christianity is fading so quickly.

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               JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               +1

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               Brenda Durhamposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Nope.   There are atheists because the Accuser of the Brethren still walks like a devouring lion trying to get others to accuse the Brethren.   Like you just did.
               Don't feel alone, though.   A lot of people fall into the trap,  fall for his carp, hook line and sinker;  you are only one among millions who prefer the sound of loud accusations instead of the still small voice of conviction.

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                  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  ...You sure you're not talking about yourself?

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                  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  You know Brenda, I've read lines like that many times, basically picturing atheists as spawns of Satan, dangling like marionettes from His fingers.
                  
                  But, if it was our choice, our free will to be atheists, then that would mean we are making decisions for ourselves, decisions which we feel are best for ourselves and those around us.
                  
                  And, isn't that basically what we all do?
                  
                  Just because we disagree with your philosophy does not mean we're being led on by Satan, or any other ghouls. We're just disagreeing. Why not drop the silly accusations?

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                     Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     I went under the moniker of born again Christian for 25 years and to be honest when I look back I can see that I also made my own decisions doing what I felt was best for myself and those around me.
                     
                     The difference is that Christians say they wait and listen for God to tell them what to do first. However, when you ask a Christian how God talks to them, its almost impossible to get a straightforward uniform consensus of what that means. In the bible, God physically visited the prophets via angels, audible voices, etc, things that would scare the crap out of people if it happened to them. As these things don't happen to Joe Christian, they have to find another way that God might talk to them.
                     
                     These methods vary and are to be honest vague. Christians might say they saw a vision, but what exactly do they mean? Surely a vision is a supernatural physical image seen with the eyes to qualify. A picture popping into the head is not a vision, and everybody the World over has pictures popping into their heads.
                     
                     They might say they had a dream, which is a common biblical method. Yet everyone dreams, some complete tangled nonsense, others very vivid and rational. So how does one differentiate between a dream and a God-dream? It's left to the individual to self interpret based upon feelings or the sensed relevance of the dream to their current circumstances.
                     
                     Christians might also sense that they 'just know', which is what everyone else calls a hunch. The strength of the hunch is used to determine whether or not God is speaking. Now I have to admit I've made some extremely important life decisions based purely upon very strong hunches and the belief that they were from God.
                     
                     Perhaps then if God does talk to people it is this latter method, but at the end of the day, it's left to the individual to interpret, and whence come the other hunches and the ones experienced by atheists? I've seen thousands of situations where the Christian claims God has spoken to them but on inspection I just cannot believe that to be true. A classic situation is where two people claim God spoke to them yet they say opposing things. Is God confused or is their claim simply wrong? If at least one of them is wrong, then this method of God-communication is thus unreliable.
                     
                     Of course someone on here is now going to tell me that God speaks through the words written in the bible. But unfortunately that is not reliable. Unless the reader can read Hebrew or Greek, how can they know that their preferred brand of translation is the word of God? What they read and what they determine is God saying to them depends entirely on their own Church culture and the interpretations given to them from that culture. It's why a Catholic interprets something different from the Anglican, and the Anglican something different from the Baptist, or the Pentecostal,,,,, ad infinitum. Because each Church thinks God is speaking to them through the bible, then a Church that 'hears' something different is considered not to be a proper Christian Church.
                     
                     I guess the accusation that atheists are their own gods who live their own lives in accordance to their own pleasures comes down to their decisions over sex and how they spend their money. The Christian says no sex other than heterosexual married sex and a proportion of their earned income must be given to the Church or Christian evangelist programmes. These latter things aside, I don't think the Christian and atheist are significantly different.

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                        A Thousand Wordsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        Very well said, DH.

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                        Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        Nice perspective

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                           BritneyKnowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           totally

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                        A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        Exactly, people are the same, compassionate and altruistic, and that it is only bad ideologies that make those good people do bad things.
                        
                        Any religion that would carry with it an everlasting curse that depicts humans as evil sinners by nature is an ideology that can only demonstrate just how evil humans can be when led by such a belief, especially one that clashes with our human nature.
                        
                        Surely, many millions and millions of Christian marriages began with words similar to, "God brought us together" and ended with "I'm keeping the dog..."
                        
                        Btw, the rest of your post was very good.

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                           Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           Thanks ATM.
                           
                           From what I understand it was Augustine who first came up with the notion of original sin and that we are all filthy sinners. This is a concept unknown to Judaism, Jesus and the early Church. It's really sad that this erroneous doctrine still drives the Church as it leaves them with the belief that anyone outside the Church is evil and can do nothing good.
                           
                           I have seen a number of Christian marriages fail and I wonder whether or not Christian divorce rates are any lower than average national statistics. The refrain I've heard though out churches is that Satan is out to destroy Christian marriages and that's why so many end in divorce. Sighs.

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                              Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                              Agreed
                              
                              
                              
                              Satan has nothing to do with Christian marriages ending in divorce.

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                              JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                              from what I've heard, Christian divorce rates are HIGHER than the national average.  There are statistics in Dr. Darrel Ray's book - the god Virus.

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                                 Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                 Here is what I found...
                                 
                                 The Barna Research Group, an evangelical Christian organization that does surveys and research to better understand what Christians believe and how they behave, studied divorce rates in America in 1999.
                                 
                                 11% of all American adults are divorced
                                 25% of all American adults have had at least one divorce
                                 
                                 27% of born-again Christians have had at least one divorce
                                 24% of all non-born-again Christians have been divorced
                                 
                                 21% of atheists have been divorced
                                 21% of Catholics and Lutherans have been divorced
                                 24% of Mormons have been divorced
                                 25% of mainstream Protestants have been divorced
                                 29% of Baptists have been divorced
                                 24% of nondenominational, independent Protestants have been divorced
                                 
                                 27% of people in the South and Midwest have been divorced
                                 26% of people in the West have been divorced
                                 19% of people in the Northwest and Northeast have been divorced

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                                    Emile Rposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                    Wow. It appears even the Baptists can't stand to be around the Baptists.

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                                    riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                    But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. Matthew 5:32
                                    Jesus says many things that has to be followed by em! atheists?

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                                       Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                       ANYTHING which is harmful to our mental and/or physical health is a sin,
                                       
                                       Is it any more of a sin to cut our arm off with a hatchet than to be playing on the railroad tracks and have the train run over the arm?   One sin is no greater than another.
                                       
                                       The best thing for our mental and physical health would be to stay with the wife from our youth when she is like minded.
                                       When we have a perfect situation and do anything to damage it, this is a sin.

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                                          riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                          Irrelevant.

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                                          A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                          That would mean there probably isn't a single person on the planet who doesn't sin. It seems a rather pointless concept considering everybody sins every day of their lives for something so innocuous as eating a piece of chocolate or running with scissors.

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                                             Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                             YOU are NOT going to tell me beer is a sin? No no no.

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                                                A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                                On the contrary, beer saved the world...
                                                
                                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdwYjFnFoJU

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                                                Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                                No.. Beer isn't a sin.. It's a beverage

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                                             Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                             I know how you feel about this already, but the bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Just throwing that out there because someone was going to so it may as well be me

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                                                A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                                In other words, God doesn't eat chocolate and never runs with scissors.
                                                
                                                

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                                                   Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                                   Exactly

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                                          3. 60

                                             Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                             @ATM Exactly !!!    Thus the phrase being born into sin.    Falling onto sissors is equally as much a sin as someone stabbing another with sissors.   The results are the same.
                                             
                                             @ Rad ...   And drinking beer is good for you in moderation and a sin when we drink too much as is also true concerning cookies and ice cream.

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                                                Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                                Now your just being mean. LOL.
                                                
                                                I personally think it's time to get rid of the concept of sin. We have laws in place to keep us in line, we don't need the guilt that goes with all that talk of sin.
                                                
                                                Crap, teenage boys are told masterbation is a sin that will make you go blind and grow hair on your palms. All they do is feel guilt and try to SEE if any hair is growing on their palms. It's doesn't stop them, but causes guilt.

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                                                   Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                                   I agree ...  our concept of what sin is seems to have developed a life of its own pn the eyes of religionists.
                                                   
                                                   Drinking the water coming from our water treatment plants is a "sin" as far as I am concerned.
                                                   This is being caught between a rock and a hard place.   or damned if we do or damned if we don't.

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                                                      A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                                      That only serves to show just how irrelevant a concept sin is...

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                                                A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                                Being born into sin is not the same as committing sins.
                                                
                                                Hence, we can say that none of us are born into sin and that sin actually doesn't even exist, but instead, there are only acts that harm or don't harm, and acts that benefit or don't benefit.

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                        gabgirl12posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        Disappearing head said: I guess the accusation that atheists are their own gods who live their own lives in accordance to their own pleasures comes down to their decisions over sex and how they spend their money.
                        
                        Exactly and apparently CHRISTIANITY's hijacking morality is the norm for everyone. And that if we don't adhere to a religious moral code, we have not the capability to be civilized or rational. But still, why if an omnipotent 'god' creates a whole universe billion light years across even care about my sexual orientation? Why only create one planet with life, considering how much we've discovered in science. Why are we so unique and arrogant that 'christians' believe 'god' did everything just for them? This kind of mentality creates lack of empathy for others. its disgusting and then they wonder why they have 'sinful' issues, its because they are the ones looking for them.

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   7. 61

      Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Because atheism is to me #1 a more rational decision and #2 a more pleasant alternative.
      
      Supernatural magic explanations for things have never once turned out to be right, every single one of the great mysteries which we put down to magic that have been solved have simply turned out to be scientific problems, I have no doubt that trend will continue.

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      A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I have a strong desire for eating raw octopus and I too, often stop to think why people won't eat raw octopus.
      
      
      
      Same here, I just want to understand why people choose to be vegans.

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      LauraGTposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Your question ignores the 5 billion people on earth who are neither Christian nor atheist.  There are many, many different religions out there, and I don't quite understand why it is puzzling that someone would choose their own religion (or non-belief) over someone else's.  Ask yourself why you don't convert to another religion (or atheism) and you will have the answer to your own question.

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       zeke2100posted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Britney, I think a big part of it is that the person that chooses atheism is unwilling to up a sin or sins. It is much easier to be your own god and choose your own standard of morality than to submit to the real God.

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          JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Except that's not actually what atheists do.

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          BritneyKnowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          true.......

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             JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             No, sorry.  It is NOT true.

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                BritneyKnowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                not u...i meant one who was above u

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                   JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                   yeah, you responded to the guy that said atheists KNOW there is a god, they just want to do their own thing and deny that god so they can continue living in sin.  That is not a true assessment of atheists, and it's minorly insulting to boot.

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                      Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      Only Minorly? I'm Christian and was insulted for you

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          A Thousand Wordsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Well, yes, by all means do your best to simplify the matter because you think you have all the answers and you know the "heart" of every non-believer. For those of us who are non-religious based on logic and research,  we don't need an ancient book to tell us what's "right" and what's "wrong." Simple as that. Many of you [Christians] believe that we have some inherent pull towards Christianity because we just "know" it's right, but we want to do our own thing because it'd be too hard for us to give up what we want. But if I ever knew people to match that description, it's the people who actually claim to believe in God that want to do what they want, and "know" what's "right" but still choose to do what's "wrong." See, most of us couldn't care less about what Christian's think are right and wrong and God isn't whispering to us.

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   Zelkiiroposted 11 years ago

   

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      BritneyKnowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      ??????????????????????????

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      Uninvited Writerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      

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   Zelkiiroposted 11 years ago

   I'm answering the question as to why many people won't turn to Christianity by drawing attention to its many inconsistencies via simple statements. Here are a few more:
   
   
   
   
   

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      BritneyKnowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      So are you an atheist

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         Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         But of course.
         
         Oh, and by the way, there are more.
         
         http://cdn.meme.li/instances/300x300/37191291.jpg
         http://cdn.meme.li/instances/300x300/38078978.jpg
         http://cdn.meme.li/instances/300x300/38864368.jpg
         http://cdn.meme.li/instances/300x300/37683269.jpg
         http://cdn.meme.li/instances/300x300/11374296.jpg
         http://cdn.meme.li/instances/300x300/11706352.jpg
         http://cdn.meme.li/instances/300x300/31176870.jpg
         http://cdn.meme.li/instances/300x300/9643255.jpg
         http://cdn.meme.li/instances/300x300/23092688.jpg
         http://cdn.meme.li/instances/300x300/10663285.jpg
         http://cdn.meme.li/instances/300x300/11831323.jpg

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   Emile Rposted 11 years ago

   I agree with the answers here. With Melissa's unfortunately, the same holds true for atheism; at times. The more firmly we think we know what is best for others, why things are as they are, how everyone should act and interact; the more hypocritical we become when espousing it and the more we appear to attempt to belittle alternative views.
   
   Zelkiro also has a valid point. Much of the Bible is difficult to read without an eye roll. It's violent, contradictory and hypocritical; on the surface. If that is what we are looking for, it is  found. If that is who we are, it is easily emulated.

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   janesixposted 11 years ago

   Atheist are atheists mainly because there is no logical reason to believe in God.

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   Tom Londonposted 11 years ago

   There's a religion of Jedi's (from Star Wars movie saga) in Australia.
   
   In response to your question, here's mine: What wouldn't you transfer your beliefs into that religion?

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   Samuel Keyhoposted 11 years ago

   People chose to be atheist because they doubt if God really exist since nobody can prove if there is God, demons, heaven or hell.. Religion began from wonders and thus people began to worship a higher Being. Therefore, people still wonder what if God really exist and the atheist are still doubting...

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   gabgirl12posted 11 years ago

   1. There is no evidence of the existence of a deity or deities.
   2. We won't be forced to accept or believe in religion.
   3. We're not treated like fellow human beings just because according to christians we're going to 'hell'.
   4. We recognize that there is a huge universe out there that we want to discover and we do not believe the earth or the universe was created in 6000 years.
   5. Christianity doesn't allow skepticism, or asking questions. It demands obedience and subservience.
   6. Christianity treats women like second-class in that they have to submit to a male authoritarian and in doing so 'women' believe they are serving 'god' (who is also referred to as a male, why not female counterpart?).
   7. If you don't believe you are threatened with hell like a gun to the head.
   8. We're cornered and rejected yet told we're the ones rejecting it, and when we calmly reassert our positions, Christians accuse us of persecuting them.
   9. We're also told we have demons just because we don't believe. In not believing we're already cast as evildoers with no capacity for morality.
   10. Many of us came to these conclusions after sitting down and actually READING the Bible yet we're accused of not having an 'open mind'.

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   Tom Londonposted 11 years ago

   It's all our egos, anyway.

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    johnsonricketyposted 11 years ago

    All I ask is that you read and comprehend with an open mind
    
    God has been here since the beginning.  It is impossible for our minds to grasp the meaning of this.  He is flawless and perfect in every way.  He is a loving God who loves all of his creation, but he can not be near sin because he is free of sin and knows no sin because he is flawless.  In the beginning before there was an earth there were many legions of angels, trillions of them.  These angels were created by God with free-will to do and choose to do what they wanted.  Of course God let them have free will, he wouldn't have been very happy with mere robots.  Robots would not have been very good companionship.  Lucifer, also known as Satan, was God's most trusted Angel.  Well picture this.  There was a great pump organ performer.  He performed and at the end, the man that pumped the air for the organ came out and said, "that sure was a great job we did wasn't it?  The performer exclaimed, "WE"? "You may have operated the machinery and pumped the air but I made all the music by myself".  Well during the next performance, the man that was operating the machinery came out during the middle of the finale and as the music slowly wound down to silence the performer exclaimed, "GET BACK IN THERE AND PUMP!" The Machinery operator simply said, "Oh i just wanted to see how well you were doing out here by yourself.  See Lucifer became so conceited in himself that he forgot that he was dependent on God for life and his very existence.  He thought he could do a better job than God could.  Lucifer decided to rebel against God, he gathered up 1/3 of the Angels in heaven and got them to follow him.  They were cast out of heaven's gates.  They could have been destroyed by God instantly but what would this look like to God's obedient angels.  You see God wants us to follow him out of love for him because he loves us.  He doesn't want us to follow him or love him out of fear or what might happen to us if we do not. That is a very common misconception in Christianity.  So you might ask did God create sin since he created Lucifer? GOD DID NOT CREATE SIN.  He gave free will and the ability to choose just like the choice you and me have. God's plan is perfect and will end in the destruction of Lucifer and all the fallen angels called demons for all the world to see.  Upon Jesus Christ's death, Satan sealed the deal for himself for eternal damnation.  At this point he had no power over the sins of the people of the earth because they were forgiven by Jesus because he was perfect.  Jesus died for everyone's sins so that followers of God may be forgiven and resurrected in order to live with God for eternity. There will be an ongoing battle between God and Satan until Satan is finally destroyed.  God created Earth and humans as overseers of the earth.  Satan tempted Adam and Eve into sin in the beginning of mankind.  Satan succeeded in tempting them to Sin.  Satan is ruler of the Earth but God still has complete control.  In order for God's followers to understand, his followers must see the consequences of Lucifer's actions.  This way, God and all of his creatures of the Universe can see what the universe is like under the rule of Satan.  This is the only way people can serve God out of love instead of out of fear.  I do not criticize atheists. I try and treat everyone the same.  I thought I would share my view of how the Universe should be seen.  Hopefully this is a helpful opinion expressed through my faith. Thanks and God Bless.

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       JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       first of all - the whole Satan part is not biblical.  AS in, it's not found anywhere in the Bible.  The fall of Satan is Jewish legend. 
       
       Second of all - we all know the story, dude..  Now can you actually prove that it's true, or give us a reason to give weight to what you're claiming?  At all?  Can you provide anything but the bible for study, because most of us have read it.  Some of us have read it in several languages.  Can you demonstrate anything that you're saying?

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          A Thousand Wordsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          I thought that it was Christian legend? Most of the Jews I come across don't believe in Satan the same way. He was just a messenger angel proving a point in the Job story, nothing more, nothing less.

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       A Thousand Wordsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       While that is quite an elaborate story, I have a few questions.
       
       First, I would like to look at your illustration with Satan as the organ player, and God providing the air to pump. Now, using that same reasoning (that Satan, or Lucifer, could not do what he did without God providing the necessary elements), why can we not blame God for sin? (And actually, in the OT, God states that He in fact created evil.) What would have happened had God not created Lucifer in your tale? (Had He not provided Satan his life, since God is the great provider) Surely, billions of people would not have been on course to meet such a fiery fate? Surely a 1/3 of His angels wouldn't have turned against Him? Or couldn't God have simply created a prison for them from which they could not escape, therefore them being unable to have any influence over humanity? Why should he let them be rulers in the realm of his supposed loved new creations (humans)?
       
       The problem with your story is that if God knows all, then He created Lucifer knowing what he would do. Knowing how many people he would ensnare. You say that God wouldn't want robots to love because robots cannot truly love, but I ask you if this is a good enough reason? Doesn't He sound kind of human like to you? Why does someone whose ways are supposedly higher than our ways, and whose thoughts are higher than ours, why does He need any of it? Worship, love, admiration for what He's "done?" Is that not prideful? I would suspect that a being higher than myself wouldn't have such petty needs.
       
       I appreciate your illustration, but besides the lack of evidence, your story has many problems with easy fixes.

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       gabgirl12posted 11 years agoin reply to this

       johnsonrickety -All I ask is that you read and comprehend with an open mind----And this is exactly how brainwashing begins. By asking you to 'open your mind'. You don't manipulate people like that you know?

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       A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       An open mind will certainly entertain such a notion, but unfortunately, since there is no basis in fact or reality for such a notion, it will be shelved until there is something valid.

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       wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       "All I ask is that you read and comprehend with an open mind"
       
       Are you sure you don't mean "All I ask is that you accept and believe everything I say without making any effort to verify it"?

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          gabgirl12posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          THANK YOU! I love this, this is exactly what they are saying. Just 'let' Jesus into your heart, translation...just allow us to indoctrinate you with a 2000 year old dogma, or you will go to 'hell'. The only reason evangelism exists is because people are afraid of a 'hell' that their loving 'god' purportedly will send them if they 'reject' his advances. Sounds like a jealous boyfriend...

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             Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             Sounds like the mafia. "Give me money or I'll break your legs"

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                gabgirl12posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Yep, you won't get 'any' blessings if you don't give your 10%. I was actually told that I could 'unlock' more levels of blessings if I gave and I fasted. Is this like an Xbox 360 game? The problem is when people listen to religious dogma, the bottom line, if you don't believe you lose. Your entire 'dependence' is on a deity that just happens to be called a 'he'. If 'god' has no gender, why not call 'god'..an IT? or a THAT? and why couldn't it be a she? I have many many questions and no one can answer them, they just say 'trust in the lord' like its a mystical thing I have to blindly follow. And christians wonder why won't anyone believe them?

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                   Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                   There are some that believe that there is a difference in the amount of blessings that come as according to how much you give as well as if you fast.. Theoretically (considering that I have no proof to offer you of what I am stating... YES I ADMIT IT) it isn't in how much you give. Rather it is the SPIRIT in which you give. Like I said, this is supposing that this is all correct. I know what I believe and have no desire to convince anyone to change theirs to mine.
                   
                   
                   
                   There are a couple of beliefs regarding that. Since Trinitarians believe that Christ is not only the son of God, but also God the son (in human form), God is given more male attributes by SOME of them. There is also the literalists that follow the bible scripture that man is made in God's image that meant since man came first then God must be male. I think the most realistic and reasonable answer I heard about that is simply that God is referred to as 'he' because the men who wrote the bible were sexist and could not accept the idea that a woman should have that much power.
                   
                   
                   
                   Not all Christians wonder that.. Some of us know already and understand why you don't believe us. Others don't really care why you don't.

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                      Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      +1

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                      A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      The problem with that is believers don't give for the sake of giving, they do so as to get in good with their gods. For them, it is an act of complete selfishness.
                      
                      
                      
                      Is there a religion that exists that isn't misogynistic?

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                         A Thousand Wordsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                         Nope, I was wrong, even Buddhism's got some misogyny/

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                         Deepes Mindposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                         A bit too general of a statement, but I understand where you are coming from
                         
                         
                         
                         Thinking about it, thought about it, probably not. But then again this isn't just religion that has misogynistic tendencies.

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                            A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                            Of course, but as time marches on, those misogynistic tendencies are going the way of the dodo, except with religions.

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    A Thousand Wordsposted 11 years ago

    I can't think of one besides Buddhism. And I don't technically count it as a "religion." Although, of course, there are buddhists who fall pray to misogyny.  But from what I've encountered from the teachings themselves, gender is quite irrelevant.

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