End Time Prophesy

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  1. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    Emile or Encephaloidead please help smile do you know the game Make Me Laugh?

    1. getitrite profile image76
      getitriteposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      Make Me Laugh is an American game show in which contestants watched three stand-up comedians performing their acts, one at a time, earning one dollar for every second that they could make it through without laughing. Each comedian got sixty seconds to try to crack the contestant up.

      So what now?

      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        In the game, the person is under their own control of whether or not to laugh. The jokester cannot assume a laugh from the contestants and make it happen. There is still only a 50/50 chance. Depends on the laugher. He is in control.

        1. getitrite profile image76
          getitriteposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          What are you trying to convey here?  How does this relate to this exchange that you are having with us?

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Some are saying that my imaginary God is making them do stuff just because he knows them well enough to know what they will decide. Make them stop!!! Please??? wink

            1. profile image0
              Rad Manposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              What are you talking about?

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Uh...weren't we just discussing God (who most "evidently" is NOT there) being responsible for our actions because he knows what we will decide???

                1. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  I said no such thing. Show me where I said God was responsible for our actions?

                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    What did you mean by predetermined actions???

                2. Psalm139 profile image60
                  Psalm139posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  PREDESTINEDI 

                               PSALM139             I SET YOU APART  BEFORE YOU WERE BORN JEREMIAH BEFORE YOU WERE BORN I SET Y OU APART AS A PROPHET OF ALL NATIONS

            2. getitrite profile image76
              getitriteposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              You should really learn the definition of the words "PREDETERMINED" and "PREDESTINED.  And you should really pay attention, as it is glaringly apparent that you have not grasped this concept....even after exhaustive attempts to get through, your delusion is making your mind impenetrable.  Remember, also, that learning is a passive experience.

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Check the meanings of PREDETERMINED and PREDICT because THAT'S what we were discussing.
                You prefer I learn passively from you??? Uh, no thanks.  I've already had growling lessons smile

      2. jonnycomelately profile image80
        jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Cgenaea hereby declared the winner lol lol lol

  2. jacharless profile image77
    jacharlessposted 5 years ago

    Hmmm....

  3. jacharless profile image77
    jacharlessposted 5 years ago

    Seems the terms of predestination and predetermination are not thoroughly clarified. A thing predestined is one whose outcome is established by its beginning, regardless of the in-between. A thing predetermined is those events, with or with a destination, in-between.  Philosophers have often noted determination as the conscious mind at work, or Reason making decisions, to think or determine (alter or succumb) the elementals of said in-between.

    Every human is predestined to have a body, a brain, a spirit, free will, etc. yet not predetermined on how they should use them. As with the circle of life, nature is predestined and predetermined. A plant cannot uproot itself, sprout feathers and fly, regardless of ten billion-billion years of evolving. It is immovable, unable, inept. Its course was determined for it, as well as its destiny.

    In my opinion, it is often the negative connotation associated with predestination that stirs people to both believe it is the same as predetermination and that it is a bad thing. If putting it into context, regardless of the in-between humans are enabled to do, they will ultimately become (restored to) their original form; receive the outcome of there desires, there interaction with predestination, based on the probability of outcomes.

    And, regardless of knowing every probable angle of action one would or would not take does not negate predestination as determination. It proves even more the two are not the same. As a simple example, I known 366 methods for cooking eggs, yet cannot determine how you will order them, eat them, cook them, etc. I can only prepare for any possible outcome, and the results of said outcomes to make your experience complete. That makes me responsible for the experience, not your interaction with it.

    Perhaps, just perhaps this is the greatest thing misunderstood concerning Creator/creation. Creation is providing all probabilities, pro or con. That is the core meaning of predestination. Predetermination, at least for humans, would completely remove the experience of any and all of those probabilities aka a potted plant.

    James

  4. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    Oooo!!! My turn... smile
    Eph 2:8-9
    For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      James 2:13-23

      14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. 20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

      Ephesians 2:9-2:10
      6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        I will show you my faith by what I do... did you hear that? Abraham believed God; so he moved as God said to move. He showed his faith by belief and then action to move as God said move. We have instruction. And no matter how much we love our fellows we cannot "work" opposite of what God said. If He says tell them your shirt is blue. You must show your faith in him and commence the "work" he said by saying your shirt is blue. For if you say turquoise, you've "worked" yourself away from him.

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
          MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Yes, that's what we are supposed to do. It's what most Christians I know do. They follow his lessons to feed and cloth the poor and help the needy. Aid the sick, give comfort to those in pain. That such.

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, but that alone is not salvation. Many horrible people are nice enough to give a brother a sandwich occasionally. smile  Man shall not live by bread alone; but by every word that comes from God. We gotta give them "good" food.

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
              MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Again, I think most of the Christians I know do that. I'm sorry to be blunt, but what is the point you are making again? That you need to have faith and do good deeds? Yes, you have to do BOTH. From a Christian standpoint, all talk and no action is bad and all action and no faith is also bad.

              I don't think any Christian is doing volunteer work thinking, "Well, I don't believe in Christ but I'm going to do what I didn't think he said anyway"

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                My point is that we must align with what the bible says. It is here to teach. When we put our feeling into the mix, we err. We cannot lean to that. The bible tells us that we don't think like him. We have to agree with what he says is right by faith. He works out the kinks with us as time passes. But we start with faith in him.

                1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                  MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes, again, that's what most Christians I know do, obviously. Can I ask why you are saying all of this? I mean it really is basic stuff I think everybody knows.

                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Oh. Well then...shine on! smile Thanks for your ear.

      2. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        "...prepared in advance for us to do."
        Think about that. The work was prepared in ADVANCE. And wrote down.
        We cannot call it tainted (because God didn't sit down with pen in hand) and then lean to what WE feel should be ok. We must align with him.

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
          MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Again, thank you for stating the obvious. Most Christians I know do that.

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Ok

    2. Psalm139 profile image60
      Psalm139posted 5 years agoin reply to this

      BY GRACE HE TURNED THE CHEEK FOR ALL SIN.
      COLLOTIANS  "PUTTING ON THE NEW MAN"
      eph ^ 10 ARMOR 

      IT IS PURPOSELY PERPETRATING JESUS UNTIL WE ARE FREE

      LOTS OF ACTIONS

  5. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    Oh! To add to one of my previous posts: he does not like Christian pride or pride pride either. We boast in the Lord. No more I.

  6. psycheskinner profile image85
    psycheskinnerposted 5 years ago

    What about atheist pride?  Because I am happy for everyone to proud of their identity (to the extent it harms none)--and I expect the same consideration in return.

    1. profile image0
      Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Pride is an interesting thing.  From my POV, it makes no sense for me to take pride in anything over which I have no control-things that I didn't, or couldn't, make happen.  I can't be proud to be a woman, or an American, or a blond.  I am those things by birth.  I am proud to be a wife, a mother-those are things I chose to do and put every effort into doing well.  Does that make sense?

      1. psycheskinner profile image85
        psycheskinnerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        It does.  But people are bad at neutrality so I am happy for them to be proud of their life as a [x] or with how they experience and express their [x]ness rather than ashamed. So long as they do not denigrate non[x]ness.

        1. profile image0
          Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Agreed.  smile

          Contentment with oneself and the sharing of it is what matters most, I think.

    2. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Pride goes before destruction. Guess where I got THAT one from... wink

  7. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    From my understanding, God made man in his image. He lived with the man it seems for a while until he made the woman. I figure God is male. Jesus called his father he, not it or he/she.

    1. profile image0
      Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Both Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 5:2 show us God creating both male AND female in his image.  You can believe anything you like, of course, but I just don't see the female of our species having been created as an afterthought "for" man.  As a complement to man, certainly, which would indicate, to me at least, that divine balance requires both male and female energy.

      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Sounds interesting. My thought is, Jesus would have made clear his idea of the male/female God. I haven't seen that. Additionally, he made no special remark about his own mother who is revered to this day.
        The custom was that man be circumcised. Women be submissive. Her head was her husband. From God. Now, would he submit himself...? Would not his woman side have kicked in? Or is this one of those "shady" words of scripture?

        1. profile image0
          Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          I am not going to argue this with you.  If you believe that God is male and that as such only men were made in his image-despite the fact that his word-THE BIBLE-not me-says otherwise, feel free.  Your God sure lives in a tiny box and is unbelievably narrow minded.  I'm gratef that mine is not.  Funny, you're certainly not concerned about being a submissive woman when it comes to preaching and such. 

          Go ahead and argue this one with someone else-I'm not interested.  This time you aren't fighting my words-you're fighting the words of the bible-which in this case have a plain meaning that doesn't in any way need interpretation.

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            "Your God sure lives in a tiny box and is unbelievably narrow minded. I'm grateful that mine is not"
            You wanna rethink that???
            Narrow is the way... few find it.???

            1. profile image0
              Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              The path may be narrow, Genaea, but HE is not.  You minimize him constantly without recognizing it.  That's sad to see.

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                What's sad to me is one who says he follows God, but does not agree with him. We must serve in spirit and truth. (Bible says so)
                God has one mind. Not millions.

                1. profile image0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  You see what you choose to see in others, Genaea, with never a consideration for the fact that you may be wrong.  Pray for me, please.  If you are truly that concerned for my soul, please, please pray that God will show me the error of my ways!

                  Has God recently told you that it's you who will be reading my heart and judging me in the final days?  If not, I'm going to continue to follow HIM and change and grow according to HIS directives rather than yours. 

                  smile

                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    That's all I'm saying.

                2. profile image0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  And, just out of curiosity, how does my supporting that God created both male and female in his image disagreeing with him?

                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    That was not the prompt for what I considered disagreement. I went back to homosexuality.
                    God being man? I'm not sure it will make or break.
                    My idea is that the woman was called the weaker vessel. God is mighty.
                    She was made from man. Adam was formed with the stuff of God. She, the stuff of man. Maybe the quoted scripts were God created them; and the other, how he did it.
                    Again, I do not consider it a weighty matter. Women are here. We have purpose too.

    2. psycheskinner profile image85
      psycheskinnerposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      So you think God literally has gender specific genitalia, beard and pointless nipples just like human males?

      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Why is everything sexual with this bunch? 
        God is spirit. Not flesh. He made man in his image with parts for sex.
        Men and women are different. They walk, talk, act, think, feel, realize much differently. Women are smaller and weaker too. Different creatures altogether.

        1. jonnycomelately profile image80
          jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          So if your god is spirit why would "he" be concerned with such a physical phenomenon as sexual intimacy?  We are not getting in his way so he should not vet in our way.

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            He's not in your way. We are supposed to be in his. Sex doesn't bother God. He just has rules.

            1. getitrite profile image76
              getitriteposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Yet you have never even SEEN a God, let alone HEARD any God assert any RULES.   You have seen no Gods nor heard any Gods, yet you blatantly state that you know what "bothers" him.  This delusional worldview suggests a dangerous disconnect from reality.

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                It's in the bible, Sir. I aint pulling you know what from you know where...

    3. getitrite profile image76
      getitriteposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      So God is a Primate?



      Then He huffed and He puffed.....and blew the house down!  Whoop! Wrong fairy tale...same outcome.



      How can a woman even begin to think such misogynistic nonsense, let alone accept it as reality?  And you just outright reject the truth...that the authors of this nonsense were misogynistic, racist, homophobic ignoramuses.....ergo, male chauvinist patriarchal pigs, who had a very low opinion of women.

      1. jonnycomelately profile image80
        jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        A male chauvanist pig is someone who still thinks 'harrass' is two words!

        1. getitrite profile image76
          getitriteposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          lol

      2. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        THEY??? I may only suggest. No way for me to do you.  I have my own thoughts. Thanks.

        1. getitrite profile image76
          getitriteposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          That's not true.  You FOLLOW the writings of ancient dubious authors, and you have no way of knowing who these people were.  You just regurgitate what someone else told you, after they "interpreted" the writings of these ignorant goat herders.  And, through your indoctrination, you believe that this is a direct connection to the Creator of the universe.  ROFL!!!! lol How can that be your own thoughts?

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            I decided. smile

  8. MelissaBarrett profile image59
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    There are at least 613 sins in the Bible. Why is everyone so focused on homosexuality?

    1. profile image0
      Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Because according to some, the other 612 are bad but okay as long as you aren't gay? roll

    2. jonnycomelately profile image80
      jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Fear

      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Don't be scared jonny. The Lord has enough grace. He desires communication.

    3. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Good question. They are all wrong as has been MY point. But the same-sex debate continues because I guess; well I don't know. Maybe we needed this.

  9. psycheskinner profile image85
    psycheskinnerposted 5 years ago

    "We have purpose too."  How apologetic.  I am increasingly please I do not subscribe to the same philosophy.

    1. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Im sorry. wink

  10. Norma Holt profile image56
    Norma Holtposted 5 years ago

    It appears that the confusion about God and what is coming in the last days has to do with identity. God is Spirit, it was never a man and consequently has no sex. Therefore it never fathered a child and cannot be manipulated by men. Read Isaiah 45:4-8.

    The New Testament was compiled by Jerome on the orders of Damasus, the then Bishop of Rome, at the end of the 4th CAD. The book of Matthew reproducers the story of Chrishna (Krishna) the third person of the Vedic trinity. This is where the idea of three gods arose. Jerome wrote of the way he changed things in the OT to make them align with his creation.

    Constantine, who is identified in Revelation 13:13-18 as 666, also invented Jesus Christ, according to these words. He then forced everyone to worship the image he created. He eatablished the Catholic Church in 325 AD at the Council of Nicaea and built the Vatican and the first Christian churches.

    The Spirit is jealous for its children, who are called the House of Israel. They have nothing to do with the Jews but they know and serve God. They have been tested throughout the course of the day of the lord, which is 4,000 years long. They are the children of the Job, that were given over to the dark mountains to be tried there, They are the religions that have manufactured their own gods and tried to change the nature of the Spirit to suite their purposes.

    We are at the end of that time now and judgement will be for those who oppose the truth and helped build the wall of confusion which is evident when reading through this debate.

    Jesus Christ came in the middle of it and in Isaiah 59:10 it explains how it brought about the darkness that you most are groping in looking for the light. That was 2,000 years ago and now it will come to an end as the Spirit is back and pouring over its people universally. They are speaking in tongues, healing the sick and communicating with God in ways that religions cannot imagine. The fact that they condemn anyone who claims these things is a signal of their refusal to believe in a real and powerful God who is bringing the world as we know it to an end.

    1. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      And SOMEONE will believe even that.

      1. Norma Holt profile image56
        Norma Holtposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Those who are not deaf and blind through religious teachings will.

        1. JMcFarland profile image83
          JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          hmmm...I'm not deaf and blind due to religious teachings as I'm an atheist, and I don't believe it either.  It is JUST close enough to parts of the truth, but just not quite.

          1. Norma Holt profile image56
            Norma Holtposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            You were not meant to believe it.

        2. Cgenaea profile image61
          Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          I can probably agree there. But deaf and blind are within as well as outside of religion.
          What is this? Where is this being taught?  By whom?
          You said that Jesus was manufactured. Then a ways down, you say (out the blue) Jesus came in the middle of it. But middle of what, remains a mystery to me.
          I noticed the scripture quoting but you have rewritten the scripture.  Do you readthe bible?

          1. Norma Holt profile image56
            Norma Holtposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            I have not rewritten scripture but religions have. That's why they all have different versions of the bible. I am quoting from King James published 1642 from original. Jesus Christ was manufactured by Constantine and Revelation 13:13-18 states just that. Open your eyes and you might see. But I think you wallow in your deafness and just like to make fun of anything you cannot understand. That's fine as you were not meant to know the truth that is meant only for the Spiritual Children of God. No offence.

            1. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Oh I understand.  No offense taken. The truth is not hidden. You are new fangled. You sound like the ones the bible speaks about coming in the last days with signs and wonders. Maybe you're the one jonny's been looking for. smile Do you do majick???

            2. Chris Neal profile image75
              Chris Nealposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              I'm probably going to regret this, but where do you come up with that?

      2. getitrite profile image76
        getitriteposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Most of that actually sounded a lot more sensible than YOUR worldview.

        1. Cgenaea profile image61
          Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Somehow I knew you'd say that.

  11. getitrite profile image76
    getitriteposted 5 years ago

    pre·sup·po·si·tion
    /prēˌsəpəˈziSHən/
    noun:
    1. a thing tacitly assumed beforehand at the beginning of a line of argument or course of action.

  12. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    It seems important to say that I know that I am laxed on citing my source. But it, for some reason, is just not committed to memory to the point where i may. and I generally do this freestyle. I know it's there...
    More than likely, some "study" occurs. wink
    Thanks for doing what I most often cannot. (You know who you are)

  13. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    My family here is spotless. Again, you know who you are...
    No condemnation. No spot or wrinkle. No fault. No stain. Redeemed. Faithful.
    I am full to the point of needing another cup. smile
    I just had to say. ♥

    1. getitrite profile image76
      getitriteposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Yep, anyone who doesn't require you to think....is a real relief from the burden of honest debate.  As long as you have people willing to support this shared delusion, it will continue to fester, like the deadly cancer that it truly is.  This bible verse shows just how little respect these goat herders had for the masses.  What?....become like CHILDREN....so you can trick us?!!!

      Matthew 18:3
      Verily I say unto you, Except you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        And you running yo cancer all by yourself. Respectfully, Sir.
        Become as little children??? You don't say... What does THAT mean??? Come as little what? Please explain.

        1. getitrite profile image76
          getitriteposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          My world view has not made me into an unthinking, blind, flunky.  Therefore it is not a cancer....like your primitive worldview, that wipes out it's follower's intellectual honesty.



          Look around at most of the believers on this forum.  It's even a trait that you all have boasted about, with pride.  Just plain embarrassing.  SMDH!

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            We boast in the Lord. And SYDH to this: the flunky part is true. But, who did you say that was again?

  14. Milan Neupane profile image59
    Milan Neupaneposted 5 years ago

    no

  15. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    Has it been 7 days yet??? ♥

    1. profile image0
      Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Why do you ask?  Is one of your kids grounded and making you crazy in an attempt to get out early?

      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Hey Mo. We made-up didn't we? smile
        No, my heart has been agonizing over a situation that seems a bit like some sort of injustice.
        My brother was stopped DWB... illegal search and seizure... he was just minding his own (and my dad's) business. And the cops came... locked him up.
        Thanks for asking.

        1. profile image0
          Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          I'll keep you in my thoughts and prayers and hope everything works out for the right.  I haven't ever been in that situation, but I imagine it's a difficult one.

          Take care.

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Much obliged! wink

        2. EncephaloiDead profile image56
          EncephaloiDeadposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Well, that's your side of the story.

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Good catch!!! wink

  16. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    All PKs are brainwashed. And YOU turned out "just fine..." what makes youto tthink that others won't be so "lucky"???

  17. amer786 profile image83
    amer786posted 5 years ago

    Another important aspect to note is that Jesus (pbuh) never folded or conceded in the face intense and seemingly deadly opposition. Not only that, his true followers endured severe and persistent persecution for generations but never conceded or compromised even in the face of death. Fabricators who are pursuing gains and power do not and are not able to endure like this.

    1. oceansnsunsets profile image85
      oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Great points, and an interesting point of view.  It is because they knew it was true, and fabricators are into fabricating and at some point what is the point of taking the heat for a fabrication?

      1. wilderness profile image97
        wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        I would have to question just how many followers DID "fold or concede", and had their names wiped from the roles of followers as a result.

        Most non-fabricators do not and are not able to endure like that either.

        1. oceansnsunsets profile image85
          oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          What do you mean wiped from the roles of followers?

          1. wilderness profile image97
            wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            If they caved in, if they folded or conceded, suddenly they were never one of those "true believers" amer786 mentioned.   Just another failure, or maybe a pawn of Satan, pretending all along.  Anything but a "true believer" who would never cave in.

            It's a very convenient method of making sure that all followers are pure and would never compromise their belief.  If they are driven to compromise, by pain or other method, then they were never a follower in the first place.

            1. Chris Neal profile image75
              Chris Nealposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              It may not be widely discussed in certain circles but it's well known that a great many people recanted in the face of death. However, it serves to make the cases of the true martyrs stand out even more. And the Roman state was not usually all that eager to kill these people. Nero's persecution notwithstanding, most of the time the Roman government, whoever the representative was, tried very hard to make it as easy as possible for the person to live, they didn't even have to really mean it.

              The way you phrase it makes it sound like church leaders wiped the names of those who recanted from church records. That's pretty unlikely. More likely is that those records didn't survive the sacking of Rome.

            2. oceansnsunsets profile image85
              oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Ok.  Depending on what Amer meant exactly, I would have to disagree slightly.  I think people could totally cave in under pressure, and have still been a true believer.  This is kind of sad to say, but it would be almost like a temptation that was given in to.  The temptation to want to have some horrible torture stopped or death averted.  That person may not even be a weak person, considering the horrendous situation.

              The stranger situation which was part of another conversation here and not Amer's, is that it would be must stranger to picture a person enduring serious torture for what they KNEW to be a lie, then dying for it.  It makes no rational sense to trust that would be the case.

              1. JMcFarland profile image83
                JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                but we do know that people throughout the last 1500 years have undergone serious torture for things that they KNEW to be untrue, but chose to undergo and persevere anyway as to save their friends and/or family members.  For example, they would refuse to name names of others, who would then be arrested under crimes of witchcraft or being a jew in the inquisition - even under torture and inevitable death.  We had others admit to being witches even when the charges were NOT true in order to either hasten death or try to escape from it or prevent others from being harmed.  These stories are plentiful throughout the history of the church.

              2. amer786 profile image83
                amer786posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                To expand on what I meant . . .

                Looking at persecution and perseverance as criteria should extend and span sufficiently for it to establish as criteria and a core trend or position should be discernable. People definitely would have folded. Who was really a true believer or not we do not know. And others may wrongfully have died or killed for a cause. But we are looking for a core trend here, and one that repeats often enough.

                In the case of the three great Abrahamic religions this is something to consider. Moses (pbuh) and the Jews faced off against the powerful Pharaoh. The early Christians vs. the Jews and The Romans that lasted 300 years! And the early Muslims bore through 13 years of intense persecution and boycott at Mecca before migrating to Medina when a confederate army was raised against them in an attempt to exterminate the nascent movement of Islam once and for all.

                The Quran makes several mentions of those believers whose hearts folded and they deserted when they saw armies several times their size. The Book of Exodus is full of the agitation of many Jews against Moses (pbuh) as he led them out of Egypt. And yes, Jesus’s (pbuh) disciples ran for cover during the crucifixion. But the key is, in all instances it never changed the outcome.

    2. JMcFarland profile image83
      JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      That's not true.  9 Muslim extremists crashed airplanes into buildings, and since Christians believe that Islam is a lie (at least most of them), it is fully possible to die for a lie when you believe it to be the truth.  Look at the trial transcripts for the inquisition and the witch hunts.  People died for lies to protect others or preserve their dignity under torture.  It's not as uncommon as you think.

      1. oceansnsunsets profile image85
        oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        This is what made the apostle's martyrdom so incredible a witness and testimony to the truth of Jesus Christ.  They lived with and followed Jesus and KNEW FOR A FACT whether or not what he did was ACTUALLY true or not.  So when they went to their own deaths, it was legit, and for facts.  So no other martyrdom for Jesus that came after those particular witnesses died will carry the same weight, and mean so much.  They COULD be dying for a lie or not, you don't necessarily know it like in the case of the apostles.  They would have been IN FACT dying for an actual LIE, in that case, IF it was a lie.  Its a concept worth trying to wrap your head around, though it seems strange.

        The Muslims that flew the planes in the buildings died for what could have been a lie, or not.  They don't know their beliefs for fact like Jesus' followers did, that saw him raise Lazarus and later himself from the dead.  The inquisitions and witch hunts example, they died for lies to protect others or preserve dignity, etc.  People drank Koolaid and died...  it is so sad, and yes that happens.  Apostles of Jesus, and whoever else that saw and died the same, a totally different story.

        1. JMcFarland profile image83
          JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          but the only evidence that exists for the martyrdom of the apostles is limited Biblical sources, which may or may not be true, and early church history/mythology.  there are lots of stories about them, but they all come from relatively biased sources that claim a lot of far-fetched things.  So no, we don't KNOW what they knew/didn't know.  We know what is said of them and what is claimed that they knew.  Nothing more.

          1. Bubblegum Senpai profile image90
            Bubblegum Senpaiposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            The same could be said about almost anything really. I mean, no one really disputes Socrates existence, despite only two authors who were contemporary referring to him ever, and one of them extremely heavily biased. And our oldest surviving work of either of these authors is about 1100 years after Socrates time. It could be argued that Socrates never existed, and his students risked their lives on a fable designed to teach moral character and Justice, the same things Martyrs all over the world believe they are dying for. (Of course, no record exists of Socrates claiming to either be a god, or a medium by which mortals can know god.)

            1. JMcFarland profile image83
              JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              yes, but nobody is claiming that Socrates was the son of god, and unless you believe in him, you're going to burn in hell for eternity - now are they?  Socrates was just a  man.  Whether or not he actually existed is relatively unimportant.  Extreme claims require extreme evidence.  There is not extreme evidence for the person, works and deeds of Jesus Christ.  Period.

            2. oceansnsunsets profile image85
              oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              I think what you say there is very fair.  I know all that I ask of people is to be fair while being intellectually honest with themselves and compare things apples to apples.  When they will not or cannot for some reason, I think it gives a kind of back handed support for the texts in question, which is incredibly ironic.

          2. Chris Neal profile image75
            Chris Nealposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            The only evidence for almost anything at all prior to the Middle Ages is limited. When Rome was sacked, the illiterate tribes didn't see a need to keep writing around, and many of the statues had been burned for lime. It was pretty much monasteries that copied what we have. So that in and of itself is not really the best gauge of whether something is true or not.

            1. JMcFarland profile image83
              JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              exactly.  The monasteries weren't exactly unbiased were they?  They were definitely trying to sell the message to convert the heathens - and when the heathens weren't exactly as receptive as they had hoped, they just killed them.  Wonderful.  The Romans wrote a lot of things down.  They wrote a lot, actually.  And since none of the apostles survived to the foundation of the monasteries, the point is pretty moot.

              1. Chris Neal profile image75
                Chris Nealposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Okay, but that sells history a little short because it's also how we know Plato and Aristotle and Euripides and tons of other stuff that most certainly wasn't selling the faith to the faithful, yet it was monks in monasteries who were copying this stuff that allowed it to survive down to present times. There is no way you can say that the only stuff they preserved was stuff that sold their version of Christianity.

                1. JMcFarland profile image83
                  JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  We have more than just the monks to thank for the works or Plato and Aristotle.  A lot of it was rather carefully preserved from more than one source.  The monks did copy a lot.  The Eastern church copied a lot too - but how much more would we have if they hadn't discarded anything deemed heretical?  How many books did they choose to destroy, rather than preserve?

                  Additionally, Plato, Aristotle and Euripides don't have a world-wide religion based on following them either, do they?  Does it mater whether or not Plato existed, or if someone else used the name to write?  Did he perform miracles and say that the only way to heaven was through him?

                  1. Chris Neal profile image75
                    Chris Nealposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    So it would have been better had the monks copied exactly nothing? Because if not for them, a lot of stuff we just plain wouldn't have today.

                    The point about Plato not having a worldwide religion is true but then you have to start digging even deeper. Jesus and his followers didn't come from Greece and didn't subscribe to Greek thought. Would the world actually have been a better place if Paul's writings had perished after the sacking while we had Plato but based on maybe a third of the sources?

                    And is it not possible that the monks were God's agency for preserving Paul's writings?

              2. oceansnsunsets profile image85
                oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                What point is moot?

            2. jonnycomelately profile image80
              jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              So, Chris, how come you and so many other people claim to "know" so much about that Jesus and that era of history, when there is so very little written about it?

              Cgenaea, and others like her, spout so much rubbish about your "savior" which they have conjured up in their minds, to satisfy their preconceptions.  They extrapolate what is written, twist meanings where it is felt appropriate and make up their own "gospel" in their effort to convince us.

              Your faith, your beliefs, your interpretations are yours alone.  They can be offered to others, but not with the precept that your views and understandings are true.   

              As for that presumtion that anyone has the right to go out spreading the gospel they cook up, that for me is erroneous.  Just like my understandings here, and my disbelief, each of us needs to step back and just let others be, in our own belief patterns, without pushing them on to others.   Then the world will be a much more harmonious place to live in.

              1. Chris Neal profile image75
                Chris Nealposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                I know what I read and whether there is little written or much, there is writing. I don't pull it out of the air and say, "HA! I'M RIGHT!"

                Some things are going to be, interpretation is not the best word because I don't claim to be an authority but an attempt to understand what is there. But to simply say that it's mine and mine alone sells history, community, God and lastly me way, way short.

              2. profile image50
                tbHistorianposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                of course, one must learn to follow ones own advice if they are to permit folks with beliefs to step back and let others be. it is the individuals responsibility to focus solely upon their own belief patterns without pushing their beliefs on to others.

          3. oceansnsunsets profile image85
            oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Just to be clear, I wasn't claiming that we KNOW, like they did, but that the apostles KNEW for a fact one way or the other.

            I am going on some studies based on what textual criticism shows us about how we can know things from the past.  Comparing apples to apples there is nothing quite like the gospels and the New Testament history, not even with some undisputed historical figures and their writings from just a few centuries back.

            On a side note, even if the gospels and the New Testament had never come to us or survived,  the history and ideas they share could all still be true.  The truth of the past and our actual reality isn't dependent on any texts from the past, but they help to shed light.  That is a different conversation all together and it was just on my mind, having nothing to do with this really lol.   None of the people living in Jesus' time had any texts, they were observers and then upon seeing the proofs, believed.  I think its no accident that it has survived with the proofs they have for them, compared to others.  This is taking into account too, all that were destroyed along the way.  It is like a miracle in itself if you think about it.  Which is in keeping with the teachings.  IF they are meant to be saved for posterity, so that people can know and respond, they sure have been.  It is just what a good God would ensure would happen if he wanted his biggest revelation of himself to be still accessible to all after that.

            1. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Makes PERFECT sense to me. The "evidence" is available for them with an ear...

      2. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        One of the very followers of Jesus himself denied knowing Jesus at all; even to the point of belligerence.  Probably not that much pride in lie-torture/death. This man lied to stay alive.

        1. profile image0
          Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          So now the question becomes this, since he denied knowing Christ did that mean he was no longer a follower? Could he have possibly lied about knowing Christ to protect not only himself but also Christ? Denying some things does not mean it isn't true. Sometimes denial protect the innocent (so to speak). They were torturing and killing Christ's followers to find out where Christ was.

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            In light of the fact that Jesus predicts the act based on the fact that the disciple, I think Peter, was boasting about his loyalty; it stands to reason that the lie was in protection of the self. "Yeah right Peter...you gon deny me three times before the night is over."
            "If you deny me before men..." He knocked himself out of the box. But Jesus gave him another chance.

        2. oceansnsunsets profile image85
          oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          That is a good point, and example of showing a super strong follower (Peter) lying in a way that was even predicted!  They were scared to death and very human.

          Contrast that, with then hiding away after the death, then going to his death later, crucified upside down.   Something happened in a huge way, in the mean time, for a man that was so quick to deny Jesus just being questioned about it.  He seemed to want to never make the mistake again.

          1. JMcFarland profile image83
            JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            and what are your sources from antiquity that say that Peter was crucified upside-down?  It's church legend/tradition.  It's not unbiased, and it's not something that can be confirmed independently.

            1. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Are there records that say he was crucified the "right" way?

              1. JMcFarland profile image83
                JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                There aren't any sources aside from church tradition that state that he was crucified at all - much like the large majority of the martyrs.

                1. Cgenaea profile image61
                  Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Not believing it is a choice available. It makes no sense to most. There IS not enough evidence available. Blood does not come from turnips. Lol
                  But seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened.

                  1. wilderness profile image97
                    wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Your platitudes are really nice and undoubtedly provide for more faith in the believer.  Unfortunately, you use them inappropriately, to the non-believer that has tested them and found them to be false statements.

                    I've looked, and so has JM, but no god.  We've knocked, but the door doesn't open.  We just hear more meaningless platitudes from someone who has nothing else to offer.

              2. Psalm139 profile image60
                Psalm139posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                HE DIED IN PRISON

              3. Psalm139 profile image60
                Psalm139posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                HE DIED IN PRISON

          2. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Peter was an excellent example of the patience of God.

  18. Psalm139 profile image60
    Psalm139posted 5 years ago

    Does it matter? will it effect your character?

  19. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    I gotta sleep. I'm thinking on it Melissa. Tomorrow...

    1. jonnycomelately profile image80
      jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      After trying to read through 4-5 pages of replies, I give up folks.  It's mostly about people who already "believe, " anyway, so it leaves me out.
      Having arrived in India yesterday, my access now to the Internet is very limited.  So will catch up in a couple of weeks....I might have been converted to something nice and heathen by that time and have something really enlightening to add to the comments....wink

      1. profile image0
        Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Enjoy your trip, jonny.  Be safe and blessed.

        1. jonnycomelately profile image80
          jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          have found a reliable internet cafe for this evening at least.   Baking hot, sweating like a pig,  ceiling fans going 100mph, mossies eating at my bare feet!

          1. profile image0
            Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Hmm...sounds delightful...lol

            I'm not a fan of hot...and I'm a terrible slave to creature comforts.  You have my admiration, friend.  Any particular reason for a visit to India?

            1. jonnycomelately profile image80
              jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Yes, Mo. Connecting with an associate who is also involved with research into the various uses of Azolla.  (If you are really interested, please see one of my hubs about it.) 
              I have arrived right down the most southern end of India, to a most delightful sea breeze coming off the Indian Ocean.   It is mid evening, in an Ashram at Kanyakumari, a very peaceful feeling to it already, and I only arrived by train a hour or two ago. 
              I am not here specifically for the Spiritual Path, only the environmental aspects which are researched and put into practice here.  But this ecological pursuit is really my "meditation" if you like to see it that way. 
              This and many others of the Asian pathways are quite in tune with the Christ-principle and can be used fruitfully by anyone, regardless of their particular religion, so I feel totally at ease sharing it with you all in this particular Forum.

              1. profile image0
                Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Jonny, the Azolla thing is absolutely fascinating!  I have a deep respect for your daily life and every effort that you make to improve our current environment and to preserve and increase its strength and viability for the future.  I hope that the visit is a productive, educational, and enlightening one!  smile I'm a little in awe of your "natural" genius-and I am in no way being facetious.  Peace, friend!  Enjoy your trip.

      2. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        India...niiice smile
        Enjoy your stay.

  20. Psalm139 profile image60
    Psalm139posted 5 years ago

    sometimes people just need to know that there is someone who has gone thru the same issues, dont bow out. we r trying to lift your spitits

    1. jonnycomelately profile image80
      jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      That's your stuff, not mine. You keep it.

      1. Psalm139 profile image60
        Psalm139posted 5 years agoin reply to this

        its not mine to keep

      2. Psalm139 profile image60
        Psalm139posted 5 years agoin reply to this

        its not mine to keep

        1. jonnycomelately profile image80
          jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          It's ALL your belief and your opinion.  Nothing of that belief can be substanciated or proven to any one else.  They might agree with you but still does not amount to proof.
          I am happy to remain unaccepting of any idea that there is a life for myself after my physical and mental death.
          Therefore all of your religious stuff is yours, as my denial is my stuff.  I don't impose my understandings on you.  You have no right to assume your beliefs are right for me - or anyone else.

  21. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    The situation is not by accident. Faith is key.
    Can I ask you a couple of questions about your deconversion?

  22. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    So the stupid tongue licking icon is garbage I see...

  23. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    Stop please. "Cherry picking" is MY "job" right??? wink

  24. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    You get verses. You interpret them and evrything...selah
    The parable about the publican was about pride. I'm sorry you misunderstand. We can NEVER do enough to EARN the mercy of God. The bible tells us that. We ARE small in light...and never are we to the point where we may STAND in the face of God's judgment.  To the public, we are kind of like crawling insects.  That's why nobody likes this message. People would rather be proud of what they DO. My example: "Genaea, but what are you DOING for Jesus? (emphasis mine) you just sit around on the computer all day while Iiiiiiiiiii am about to DO some volunteer work!!! And Iiiiiiiii am about to play with my children spending quality time!!! While YOU just sit there spouting off your big mouth (about what the bible says let me add) and your children are neglected, and your old folks are hungry!!! I'm doing!!! And YOU are just sitting there talking!!!"  And, "I will not speak to my children about the God I serve because I fear they may become INDOCTRINATED. And they don't understand it anyway! So off to the park we go!"
    Does any of this sound familiar???
    You said that you didn't receive biblicalsscripture in my post but off the top of my head, I gave you at least 3. Now they were not called out verbatim nor each scripture # called out. But it's in there. You seem to have OVERLOOKED them.

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      I'm having a bit of trouble dissecting that post. It seems like you got your feelings hurt by other verses I posted. I'm sorry sometimes the Bible's words hurt. However, since it's about your emotions and not about anything Biblical, I would rather just stay on topic.

      The publican and the Pharisee parable is about pride. It's about saying that one is more faithful than another. I mean that part is pretty clearly stated. I'm not sure where you are pulling the opposite meaning from...

      Also, I'm still not understanding why taking my child to the park is against Proverbs 22:6. Since that's the only behavior you mention that goes against the verse, I'm going to have to ask for verses again. I'm not certain how that is not  "Training up a child in the way he should go". Did Jesus say something against park trips? Otherwise, I think I'm doing a pretty good job training them up in the way they should go. It's kind of what I do.

      And still, it isn't saying that one doesn't need to do good works. You seem to be really against the good works thing. Yet still no scripture.

      I'm sorry to mistrust your "off the top" of the head verses. However since you seem to be saying things that are different than what the bible says, I have to ask for verification directly from the word. I do apologize, I'm not doubting you one bit. I'm just not suppose to take a human's word when the Bible says different.

      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        smile sorry. I did not mean to hurt your feelings. Really. This is about truth. I say it in a really practical way. I guess that my interpretation could be based from opinion in your eyes. I base what I say upon other things that I have read in scripture. I do understand the inability to grasp what I am saying. No issue between us.

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
          MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          No, there isn't an issue between us. My feelings aren't hurt. I'm just trying to have a discussion about the Bible with you. Since you say you are basing you interpretation/opinion on things that you have read in the scripture, it shouldn't be hard to show me where. I mean it's always good to learn more things about the Word. If I'm incorrect, I most certainly would like to be made aware of it... but the bible specifically warns against taking advice from those who seem to be saying different that what we are taught. I'm sure you understand why I need actual scripture to be sure I'm not being led astray.

          Nothing personal. Maybe the other Christians on the forum could help with finding those verses?

  25. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    Works OF faith. It's spiritual. Works that prove you have faith in God. What better proof is there than to say what he said?Oh! I think we have a problem there if the words he said "cannot be fully trusted because man has touched it. So, we can just make-up what he meant since the words here cannot really be relied upon. ALL lines of thought can be acceptable!!! Hooray!!!" No...come in at the door. The door is faith. Did you know that speaking was an act? And speaking what he said is a faithful act???
    Doing what he spoke (ALL OF IT in consideration) is even more faithful?  Not comparison. He judges us according to our own standard (it's in there). Our own faith. Along his lines, I mean the narrow gate.
    We must be doers of the work, all of it (study of it is necessary) not a few trusted passages).

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      I'm sorry... Again I must disagree.

      James 2:14-17

      What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

      That is pretty concrete. It says feed and cloth those who need it. It says that preaching does no good without actually doing something about it. That would go against what you are saying. Are you saying the verse is incorrect? Is there another verse that says that this one was just a joke?

      and

      James 1:26-27
      26If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. 27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

      Also, again from proverbs...

      Proverbs 18:2

      A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.

      and also

      Proverbs 30:32

      If you have been foolish, exalting yourself, or if you have been devising evil, put your hand on your mouth.

      Obviously, I do study the Bible. Which is why I'm so confused that the things you are saying don't seem to be in there. Could you PLEASE give me the verses?

      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        This is a really good example of the cherry picking idea. Faith is the main idea. I am not approached by hungry people all day everyday. So am I not able to become saved? Watch this... You want a sandwich Melissa? Uh, please don't say yes. I haven't the resources. smile am I not going to heaven?
        Did you read about who should bridle and on another page who should speak up??? My guess is not.
        In all of the master's documented time on earth, how many meals did he provide?
        He fed the people figuratively. And most importantly. One perishes without the food he gave.
        If one does not take the time to get to know Jesus; they risk misunderstanding all that he came to do and all that he said. Do not let the practicality throw you. It's what I have. My biblical interpretation is based from all of it. Not just that one passage. People tend to see contradiction more readily when they look at your favorite verse and then flip on over to. "...for ye are saved by faith ... not of works lest any man should boast." they would scream that the bible contradicts itself. We are required to study.

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
          MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          So you're saying Jesus didn't say to visit orphans widows or feed the hungry and clothe the poor? Perhaps you can show me how context would make those verses say something different? Again, with verses.

          And yes, it's rather difficult to NOT read proverbs in context. I'm sure you understand why.

          I've been a Christian for many years now, I know Christ. I've studied the Bible extensively. Still, it's not saying what you say it is.

          You really could rectify that problem by giving verses. I'm not understanding why you are seemingly unwilling to share the word of God. Please, just verses. Otherwise, I have to believe that you are incorrect because the word of man never wins out against the word of God.

        2. PhoenixV profile image63
          PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Did anyone offer you help or anything to eat since you made it known you do not have the resources?

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Oh, I thought she said she didn't have the resources to give me a sandwich... if she and her children are hungry, I will most certainly help.

            1. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              The sarcasm makes what point? Don't waste good sarcasm. wink

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Absolutely no sarcasm whatsoever. I'm sorry you see it where it doesn't exist. I truly am.

                Edit: Or were you talking about your own sarcasm in the original post? I didn't see a point in that. To be honest, I rarely see your point though and asking you to elaborate generally doesn't help.

          2. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            I just love your mind wink
            Me? Serving up a platter that will never be forgotten.

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
              MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              In all seriousness, sarcasm aside, do you need help?

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Yes Melissa, I do! Guess where my help comes from, ALWAYS...

                1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                  MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  So you don't need help finding food? That's all I asked. Phoenix said you didn't have any.

                  1. PhoenixV profile image63
                    PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    She probably found something to eat, while waiting on your low calorie boasts.

                  2. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Thanks!  I'm good. The point was that I didn't have resources to mail you a sandwich. Keep calm. You'll get it.

                2. Psalm139 profile image60
                  Psalm139posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Derek Prince - Breaking Generational Curses

                3. Psalm139 profile image60
                  Psalm139posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Derek Prince - Breaking Generational Curses

              2. Psalm139 profile image60
                Psalm139posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                S AFLICTTED BY MANY SPIRITS
                SHE I

              3. Psalm139 profile image60
                Psalm139posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                S AFLICTTED BY MANY SPIRITS
                SHE I

            2. PhoenixV profile image63
              PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              I am Irish and I unfortunately have the temper that goes with that. When I see the enemies of Christ, making sport of His children, at places, with dishonest impunity, and distorting His wonderful words and lessons I get angry. Then I think about it. I consider how people like you, Cgenaea and people like Oceans, will wake up the next mornings and still be themselves, Likewise the enemies of Christ also awake to the mirror, which is themselves, as we all do.  And the karma or Godly justice of that is ironically, so fair and just. That is why I admire people like SirDent, Oceans and you. Yall almost have supernatural patience that I do not have.

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Gee, calling other Christians enemies of Christ, that's also an unusual take on the Bible.

                1. EncephaloiDead profile image56
                  EncephaloiDeadposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Didn't you know, Melissa, if you aren't with them, you are against them, you are their enemy whether you like it or not or whether it is true or not.

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Oh, I don't really care about that. It shows more about them than about me.

                2. Cgenaea profile image61
                  Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  You don't get out much???

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Nope, I'm just not around people who do that on a regular basis. I only really run into it on these boards... and then only from one or two people.

              2. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                My granddad is part Irish. Nice! So I guess I didn't get the "fire" smile My mom is super-human and the epitome of our description of virtuosity. I'm mild; until...
                It's important to remember that it is not personal. It has always been true that when the lights come on...some people look horrible to themselves. Biblical truth is light. I'm just the one who hit the switch. I catch it. Promised, right???

                1. Psalm139 profile image60
                  Psalm139posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  IONAL CURSE

                  GENERAT

          3. PhoenixV profile image63
            PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this
            1. profile image0
              Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              What, in the name of all that is holy, are you even saying here?  This makes little to no sense at all.

            2. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Thanks for the emphasis. smile
              The "way" is spiritual. Without the spirit of God (that has been disclaimed already as an evil tactic to appear holier than thou) We may not come to know the faith that it takes to act accordingly. We must know what it says (meaning what it MEANS) before we can DO anything. Faith is the BEGINNING of the formula.
              Now let's talk about faith. Faith puts into action. Faith makes you humble (which has ALSO been disclaimed). Humility brings about the urgency to "learn of him" and then KEEP to it. ACT based upon FAITH. Abraham believed God, so he ACTED accordingly. "Come on here Boy! Gotta git up to this here mountain...God said..."
              We base our lives upon what his truth is. Not ours. We, in faith, believe him and wholeheartedly agree... so we THEN act. But we know we cannot boast. (Disclaimed) smile
              I'm no one's enemy. Emnity...maybe.

              1. wilderness profile image97
                wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                If the bible (the WORD) does not mean what it says that would mean that someone has intentionally falsified it.

                As God oversaw and inspired the writing of the book we can assume it wasn't Him.  I think.

                That leaves Satan as the only being able to circumvent God to the degree necessary to change His words into something else in order to fool man.  Which in turn means that Satan has effectively written the bible with the intent of fooling man into believing something that isn't true.

                So either the bible is true as written without need of "interpretation" or spin, OR it is a tool of Satan.  Which is the best fit with reality?

      2. oceansnsunsets profile image85
        oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Are you aware of the apparent contradictions in Paul's writings vs James?  James speaks a lot about works, and Jesus does some too. 

        Paul in Romans and his epistles are full of that stuff, and surely you are aware of them if you know the bible so well, which I am not doubting based on your words.

        Isaiah weighs in also about works, being as filthy rags...

        Isaiah 64:6
        All of us have become like one who is unclean,
            and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
        we all shrivel up like a leaf,
            and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

        I have not been on here much, so have not followed this convo closely.  The point I think she is making more from the one post, is that our works can't save us, they never could.  We have a great example of this in the thief on the cross in the gospels too.  He was a total criminal and charged for his crimes, and while dying, unable to do one good work was welcomed into God's paradise that very day.  Its a perfect example of a person conversing with Jesus not doing even one good work.  Its not about that, is part of her point.  Paul does go on to say that people shouldn't just sin because they know it will be forgiven...  but has to say that because his points are SO much about the grace and mercy of God.  Romans 8:1-4
        "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."
        In short, can you share each side you are both taking?  What is at issue exactly?

        1. PhoenixV profile image63
          PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          I think they are just cherry picking a few random verses to use as put downs.  In my opinion They are just distorting scripture, so they can spread their own misery to others.

          1. oceansnsunsets profile image85
            oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            The one verses about fools speaking out, from Proverbs, and people sharing opinions or whatever, the fools that do, seemed a little out of context, so you might be right.

            I think what is happening here is that she doesn't have a way to quickly search and come up with verses like others that are more used to searching say, Bible gateway, etc.  For me, I type some of the text of a verse in my mind it searches and I pick the biblegateway link, and find it in seconds.  CGenaea is probably used to reading her bible, and that is a much harder way to quickly pull of the verses that are being kind of demanded (for her to be right at all), or else she must be wrong.  I think that is what is going on if I had to guess.

            1. PhoenixV profile image63
              PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Exactly.

            2. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Bingo, Jack!!! I hope you watched Good Times. smile
              I studied the bible intensely for an entire year with little to no interruption. I grew up in church so some of it I already heard. But to study it for myself opened an entire new world of answered questions. It was a marvelous 15 month "course"
              He knew I wanted to know and he taught and taught and straightened and corrected and renewed.
              So you are right AGAIN... I was not prompted to know where it is found.  Just didn't seem as important. Plus it seems a lot for me to handle. I use Bible gateway too for context sometimes.  But the bible tied together in a way I had never imagined. I know that what I say is in there. But that would include "seeking" now wouldn't it. wink
              You're a star...

        2. Cgenaea profile image61
          Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          I guess of my main points was about pride. It leads us to bad. The man who prayed the prayer about his things he did as a righteous man somewhat as with a bill for services. The other prayer was sorrowful and humble. Jesus told the parable. Sorry for the quick synopsis smile but it just seems like you know.  Anyhow, to me it was pride about works. To Melissa,  it was more of a pride held over the more humble as more holy somewhat putting down the other. If I'm not too off.
          Then we went back to faith. Well Faith's no good without works." She said.
          Round and round we go... smile

          1. oceansnsunsets profile image85
            oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, the book of Proverbs and other places deal with how dangerous pride can be and we also see that play out in our world.  The parable you mention echoes many other parts of the bible where the heart is the issue with Jesus, or God.  God has always cared more about the heart of a person, we see that in the Old Testament too.  He cared much less about perfection than the heart, as does Jesus.  Seems not like two opposing sides to me, but two different arguments almost.  Its true, that faith without works is dead, and its also true that there are no amount of works that can save us, or make our heart right before God by the works alone.  My two cents, sorry for butting in but Melissa did ask if others could come up with some verses to back the points maybe, or something like that.

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
              MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Thank you. That's exactly what I've been saying, yet I'm being told that I am wrong. I'm not sure why that is.

            2. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Sounds good to me... Thanks for your two cents. wink You bless me always.

        3. MelissaBarrett profile image59
          MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Thank you Oceannsunsets.

          The criminal on the cross is a very good point. I guess Christ could choose whomever he wanted to enter into heaven through him and, after all, the Criminal didn't have a whole lot of time to do good works after accepting Christ.

          My stance is that it requires both good works and faith. That has always been my stance. I'm not aware of any contradictions between James and Paul just stressing different sides of the same coin. I'm not meaning to be insulting, but are you saying that James was wrong? That we can ignore that book of the Bible?

          Cgenaea keeps insisting that the bible doesn't say that works are needed. I'm not sure why she would claim that and I think that it's harmful to tell others that they can ignore parts of the Bible... I was simply asking her why she believed that. I think that's fair as she was implying that my belief in the bible meant that I wasn't a true Christian. She has been unable to provide those verses.

          She is also espousing the view that it is OK for those on earth to judge that one person is a Christian while another isn't. I was asking for verses that explained why that was OK.

          There were several other views she sat forth that also seemed contrary to what I have been taught through my study of the Bible. I also asked for those verses.

          There were several subjects. You'll have to read back through because honestly, many of her views seem to fit that definition. Again I wasn't getting verses... and when I did, those verses were very very different than in any Bible version that I could find.

          Obviously, that perked my ears a bit.

          1. oceansnsunsets profile image85
            oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Fair enough Melissa.  No, I do not think James is wrong, and it was one of the books I actually memorized once in segments and I haven't done that with any other book of the bible, lol.  So I love that book.  There aren't actual contradictions, they just focused on different points of the same coin, kind of like you said.  My point is that James is more rare in that focus compared to a lot of the rest of the books in the NT especially.  A repentant heart and faith are other topics that are big, and the two greatest commandments are huge.

            Is she insisting that works aren't needed for something in particular, like salvation?  Where do you stand on that?  Do you think you need to do works to be saved?   I don't think we can judge who sincerely is or isn't a Christian, and that it is a job belonging to God.  We can only go by scriptures that might speak on that more.  Even then, I tread lightly, and wouldn't want others to judge me.  I didn't see her say you weren't a true Christian.

            I think it is good to ask for evidence to back up people's claims.  I will have to pay better attention to see what is going on I guess as I have time. I think asking people to back their positions  is an excellent thing to do, to reiterate.

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
              MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Repentance and faith are fairly standard in a Christian. I think that choosing to follow Christ requires both of those things from the outset...After all, you have to have faith to believe in Christ in the first place, and you have to have repentance to want to follow him. If you think you are just fine and that he doesn't exist... I'm not sure what the point is. I'm sure someone could find one, somewhere, though.

              Anyway, once we get past what it takes to "join the club" for a lack of a better word, I think James gives us further instructions. Not a conflict, but an addendum. A list of "These are the things that Christ did, and he'd really like it if you did as well."

              I will concede the point that I am completely unconcerned about heaven or hell.

              Salvation to me means acting in a way that Christ would approve of, of striving to be as much like him as possible. A goal that I will, obviously, fall short of. James gives directions to how to help do that. Not through believing, which is a given, but by taking the next step. (Faith without works is dead. No longer growing) He's pretty specific with his examples as well.

              I guess it's the difference between doing the bear essentials and committing yourself fully, IMHO.

              So yes, for true salvation, both are necessary. Dead faith is not truly salvation, is it?

              1. oceansnsunsets profile image85
                oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Thanks for explaining your views and understanding.  I don't have a problem with what you say there and I doubt CGenaea would either. 

                See, I don't think you two really were disagreeing as much as you thought you were.  That is my take from this point of view, lol.

            2. profile image0
              Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              You are absolutely correct. Nobody here on earth can judge who is or is not a Christian. Unfortunately, that happens very often here on HP by various people. There is more to that discussion that meets the eye. There is a specific reason that some scriptures are being asked for (and obviously reasons why the requests are being ignored). I appreciate you and Phoenix providing most of what was asked for though.

              1. PhoenixV profile image63
                PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Youre welcome. Easy Christian 101 stuff.

                1. profile image0
                  Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Exactly. And it's the Christian 101 stuff that goes a long way toward helping others come to a better understanding of Christ. Those that try to be deeper than what the word calls for hurt Christianity (especially when asked for references and a breakdown). We should be ready and willing to provide instruction for others without judging their faith and walk. Thank you again

              2. oceansnsunsets profile image85
                oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Thanks for that  DeepesMind smile

                1. profile image0
                  Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  No, thank you for being willing to provide instruction.

          2. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            I am so glad that spirit tries spirit.  Deceit is against God too. Your implications and accusations are laughable. I would bother myself to go back over the conversation but my views are known. I was sure that I heard you a while back rallying for the tainted status of the bible. Which led me to believe it responsible for you having the views that you do.

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
              MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              I'm sorry if you took the meanings to be insulting. The fact is that you weren't saying the same thing as the Bible. That's not an implication, it's a fact. I'm sorry that upsets you to be shown that. I truly am. If it's any consolation, I don't believe you were doing it on purpose.

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                No way... wink

  26. oceansnsunsets profile image85
    oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years ago

    To Melissa and CGenaea, I found a quote from Genaea that helps me to see her side and point of view, unless I am mistaken then correct me please, lol.  She said in one post,

    "We can NEVER do enough to EARN the mercy of God. The bible tells us that. "

    I would agree with that comment, from what I understand the bible to teach.  Here are some verses that show works don't cut it necessarily in Jesus' eyes on judgement day,

    Matthew 7:21-23-
    “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

    The book of James keys in on how important works are, that will flow out of person that is a Christian, and that the world will see.  Jesus speaks of the fruit that comes from healthy and live plants, and how they can be pruned as need be, etc. I think the two topics really go hand in hand.

    1. PhoenixV profile image63
      PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      It is self evident, that someone that 'boasts and brags' about how 'they are all about the works' is an obvious contradiction. Jesus makes it clear they get their reward for that, that is assuming they actually did any work at all.

      1. oceansnsunsets profile image85
        oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        The law of the Old Testament and the followers of it, sometimes took things to extremes and tried to be very out in the public with their "pious" ways.  They would pray loudly for all to hear, fast and look gaunt in public as if wasting away for the looks of things.  Jesus said they just got their reward.

      2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
        MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Is it boasting and bragging to post Bible verses now? To encourage other Christians to help others in need?

        Could you show me where Jesus said that spreading his word was boasting and bragging? I seem to be missing those verses as well.

        1. PhoenixV profile image63
          PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          I have helped people in need. Some were not Christians. But that does not matter because those would be fruits anyway. I  and other Christians are saved through faith because it is the gift of God: Not by works.

          The problem I see is some fakes will distort the NT, for whatever agenda they got. But the NT is taken in full context, not a verse here and a irrelevant verse there, as a put down.

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Ah, I seem to catch that as referring to me. Do you think you might be judging my faith? Do you have the verses saying that is OK?

            I keep missing those.

            1. PhoenixV profile image63
              PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              When you were posting irrelevant, out of context verses like bridle your tongue and being a fool, were you talking about yourself or were they just meant as a put down?

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Sorry, but when she is saying that preaching is a good deed in and of itself, yet not actually preaching but giving her opinions without verses, even when they are being asked for, and then misrepresenting her opinions as biblical... I feel they were pretty accurate.

                After all, I asked several times for the verses, yet none were given. Since I am told not to trust any man who's words are contrary to my teaching, and that was what she was doing, they were fitting. As a warning to others that might be persuaded by words being represented as biblical yet differing from bible teachings..

                1. PhoenixV profile image63
                  PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  If I were you, I would not worry about a Christian Teaching/Preaching the Good news as Commanded as well as being A Witness and letting their Light Shine, Like Cgenaea.

                2. oceansnsunsets profile image85
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  The great commission, if obeyed by people is a great deed indeed, as far as deeds go, I would think.

                  If no one had told any of us, how would we know of the Salvation by our Creator the remedy we need?  It is one of the hardest things to do as well.  It is like a person sharing the remedy for the disease that is killing us.  Who wants to hear they have cancer, for example, when they are sure they are not, and the doctor has said so and given the remedy for those that want a remedy.  I actually know of people that wouldn't fight their cancer, which is sad, but nonetheless a fact.  The doctors make the diagnosis, and the bearer of the news often probably gets an angry or upset "earful" (Speaking in general here...)

                  She has likely done other nice things, and it could get dangerously close to comparing "my good deeds vs your good deeds" if we aren't careful.  That just gets judgemental too, if being judgemental is something we want to avoid.  This seems to be the case to me anyway.

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    I don't argue with spreading the word, but I do argue with spreading paraphrased word that doesn't line up with what the Bible says.

                    And, also not to be insulting, but I never found the word of Christ to be hard to take at all. Certainly not like cancer. I understand what you are saying, of course...But I've never understood the like comparisons. I don't get angry over hearing Christ's words.

                    I do get angry over hearing words presented as Christs but not being his... I'm sorry but non-verbatim doesn't cut it. The only true word is his. It's not as big of a deal when it is in agreement, I guess. But when it isn't in agreement, it's a big deal indeed.

                3. oceansnsunsets profile image85
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  At least now we know why she wasn't giving the verses, she explained it.  Not the verse verbatim with references attached anyway.

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Right. But the non verbatim verses aren't saying what the verbatim verses say.

                    Do I go by what she's saying, or what the Bible says? That's rhetorical, obviously, I go by the Bible. I'm not sure where there's fault with that.

                4. Cgenaea profile image61
                  Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  I'm going to continue in truth. You seem to be distorting even what I say. And it is posted for all to see. The point made about the prideful prayer at Luke 18:9 seemed to coincide with the way you considered me being one to "only sit here" on the computer "preaching" while my children were being neglected and volunteer work was left undone. And you volunteering and spending time with your husband and children being much more like Christ; seemed to kind of be judgmental. As well as imply that you were better.  It is not about what you do.
                  I spoke of your not being willing to "risk" the indoctrination of your children by not telling them about the message of God. But the bible says to. Is that faith?  We must agree with what is right on the "narrow path" which was another big point of our discussion. 
                  I have no scripture that states that the person being "rescued" by God was probably in trouble; I assumed that part.

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Ah, more about YOU and your opinions of me.

                    Sorry, not Biblical... therefore not the truth.

                    Please keep on topic. Genea is not in the Bible.

                  2. PhoenixV profile image63
                    PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    You keep up the good work Cgenaea. You know the Bible and its intent., the Spirit of the Words.

          2. Slarty O'Brian profile image82
            Slarty O'Brianposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Faith is the illusion of knowing without the ability to know. What is it good for? Only for deluding yourself that you actually know something you can't know.

            No thanks. wink

            1. profile image0
              Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              And who asked you, Mr. Smartie Pants?  wink

              You know I jest.  But I've come to a realization recently that arose from the question of whether or not one can choose to believe.  I have looked at all of the logical and rational arguments against the existence of God.  I have become more and more aware of his apparent absense from our world - suffering that happens daily, horrible poverty and illness and the like.  Nothing that atheists have said or will say to me regarding God's non existence does NOT make sense in a logical and rational world.  I have no evidence of God's existence that is observable, testable, or substantial enough to prove objectively and beyond doubt that he exists.

              But I can't shake my faith.  No matter what I do.  And it's not indoctrination, it's not insanity, not ignorance, not lack of education, etc...

              So what's up with that?

              I've been following a lot of your posts, and it has been great to see you back a little more frequently.  Truly.

              smile

            2. oceansnsunsets profile image85
              oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Faith and reason or rationality are not at odds.

    2. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Duh...you quoted the same Matthew verse I did (correctly verbatim verse and chapter cited THANK YOU!!!  smile
      To me, the works are of faith. How can the faithful not say what the word said first??? We know that is right... well,  some of us.

    3. MelissaBarrett profile image59
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Again, I never said that faith wasn't necessary. I was being told that works weren't.  I assume that Christians have faith, or they'd be atheists.

      1. oceansnsunsets profile image85
        oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        For what, I guess. This argument or discussion seems to be about the thing that isn't being specified...are we talking salvation here?  Faith and works for salvation?  Or just faith for salvation (agreed upon by all), and works will necessarily flow out of that?

        Or being just a witness so that others can see your good deeds and glorify your father in heaven? 

        "In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."  Matthew 5:16

        On the other hand, justification by faith..  (may not be best verse, but shows how we have peace with God through)

        Romans 5:1 & 2
        Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

  27. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    Ready whenever you are. But we have a different set of tools; that's for sure. I have not gone against scripture once. I cannot say the same for you.
    The things I say are biblical. Those who know; or care to know; will.

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      As I'm actually quoting Bible verses... I'm not sure how that can go against scripture.

      I believe we have the same tools as well. The Bible. Maybe you should consider using it rather than paraphrasing.

      I am respectfully asking that you keep yourself out of the conversation... as I am not interested in your emotions and issues. They aren't biblical, and the bible is what we are discussing...

      So which verse would you like to discuss?

      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Matthew 7:13 - 14
        Why do you consider the path that most people are on to be the one leading to God? You stated most people are Christians??? The words of Jesus have been found to be easy on the ears?

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
          MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          That's not what I said at all. See how that paraphrasing thing is bad?

          I said most Christians are Christians. All of them in fact. Yes, the words of Jesus have always been easy on my ears.

          But the verse says: 13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

          Christ is the gate. There are few that find Christ. We call those who have Christians. All Christians have found that narrow gate, so all enter it.

          Do you disagree?

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Disagree. Why do you believe the bible says that not all who cry Lord (meaning all who call themselves by his name) are his???
            It is not verbatim, I know. Do you know the scripture at all? Does what I ask sound familiar to you?

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
              MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Yes, I know that verse. It means those who haven't found Christ... therefore haven't found the gate.

              Not an unusual statement to make when the people being addressed believed in the Lord, but not in Christ.

              Do you disagree?

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                You must have faith in Christ yes. Now here's where it gets tricky. The bible tells us that faith in God looks a certain way. Faith acts. Like Abraham and Rahab showed faith by acting on the words of God. Never disagrees. Disagreement with the word of God is a huge give-away.

                1. JMcFarland profile image83
                  JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  but don't you keep saying we should move past the Old Testament and move to the New Covenant?

                  1. oceansnsunsets profile image85
                    oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    How would faith like Abraham and Rahab differ from those in the New Testament?  Also, they are both mentioned among many others in the "hall of faith" chapter in Hebrews. So that is New Testament.

                2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                  MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  I agree that disagreeing with the word of God is a giveaway that you don't believe in him. That would include  saying things are in the Bible that really aren't and misrepresenting one's opinions as His.

                  Disagreeing with another Christian is not disagreeing with God though.

                  I'm glad we agree.

                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Are we to teach our children about God?

      2. oceansnsunsets profile image85
        oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        After all that discussion earlier, this is so sad to me to observe.  Wow.   Just incredible. Not just this post but all surrounding.

        Just so you know Melissa, we can all see that you are dictating to CGenaea how she is allowed to even discuss ideas from the bible, UNLESS she quotes verses verbatim with references.  Or else you feel justified in this ongoing treatment you are giving to her.  Every time I come to these forums I forget how horrible they can get. 

        We spent a lot of time showing how her views are correct using verses from Old and New Testaments, and your other point, which wasn't counter to hers (just another point) also had backing from the book of James.  You were both not even discussing opposing points, just totally different points.  You were discussing how its a good thing to do some good works when a Christian.  She was discussing how a Christian can't be saved by their good works.  You feel like its ok to condemn her for her point for not showing verses and their references, and have not let up for a long time.  So others get a pass for not posting verses and references, but CGenaea is held to a totally different standard.  I think by now this ought to be a compliment to her.  No other way to look at it.  If there were legit things to rebut her points with, you would have used those instead of this demand for chapter and verse and book stuff.  To answer you, that is how you were wrong, even when you were posting scriptures.  It didn't even take that long to figure it out and I was trying to be very fair to all. Others noticed it too. Hopefully this helps in future discussions for people that want to truly discuss and care about others even if they don't like their "style" of discussion or debate.  Just maybe debate those that you dont' mind not having references and verses or those that will post them when you ask.  Her points were not odd, unknown biblical concepts.

        1. JMcFarland profile image83
          JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          I'm curious, genuinely - how you see Melissa's posts as condemning Genaea, but you don't seem to see Genaea's posts as condemning to her in return.  Is this intentional?  In your brief time on these forums, do you genuinely not see anything that Genaea has posted that was less than productive to continuing dialogue?  You said that you would be the first person to point out negative behavior on ANY side of the discussion, but I only seem to see you do it towards atheists and Christians who disagree with Genaea.  Is this just my perception, or do you really REALLY just not see it?  I'm just curious as to your point of view.

          1. oceansnsunsets profile image85
            oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            No, I see people going hard after CGenaea, and then defending the behavior.  Tonight's by Melissa was very clear, and she kept on after it was all dealt with which shows intent.  I don't see the malice from CGenaea towards others, even with all the baiting that seems to be going on.  She has learned the hard way to have to be stronger and not give back in kind or else be silenced, and this is in my short observation.  Its not massively horrible, but a constant going after, as if trying to discredit using fallacious reasoning, and when I see it I point it out.  Do I see some strange dialogue from her, I mean not your usual way of wording things?  Yes, I do see that from her.  In this latest case, can you show how Genaea was dictating how maybe Melissa had to post her ideas from the bible or anything else, or else her views didn't count for things that were common knowledge?  I work a lot, and can't read all the posts.  If you want to provide an example from the last few days when I was gone where she was giving back in kind, in context, I will look at that.  It saddens me to have to even answer this, because you actually seemed like you were being sincere in the asking.  That you can't see it says scores. How about, just leave her alone?  One of the atheists was in here saying people should leave people alone.... how about her?  How has she really hurt you? I am being dead serious...that warrants this treatment?

            1. JMcFarland profile image83
              JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              how am I treating her, specifically?  I treat her the exact same way that she treats me.  How are you, then, comfortable passing judgement on ME for asking you a sincere question.  I'm not going after her.  I disagree with her on a lot of things.  If I called her names, I would be banned for it.  If I attacked her personally, i would be banned for it.  She, like many others, attacks a lot of people's ideas, and that's perfectly fine.  Ideas deserve to be critically examined.  I'm not above admitting to when I'm wrong.  I can find example after example of her criticizing people personally, but I don't really see the point and I don't have the patience. 

              I was asking you a sincere, genuine question - and you answered.  You see something wrong with my posts, with melissa's posts, etc.  But Genaea is golden.  Standing firm in a sea of her own creation.  I'm truly and genuinely sorry that you can't see that.  She's never hurt me.  You have to give people power in order to hurt you.  And I'm truly disappointed that I asked the question of you, and your response.

              Agreeing with Genaea's message doesn't mean that someone has to agree with her method.  Since she has no qualms about arguing with other believers and saying flat-out that they're not "true" christians, I'll take that to mean assent.  I'm glad I know.

              Genaea is the one that has said over and over again that she "speaks bible" yet seems to have a problem providing verses that back up her points and invalidate the points made against her.  I don't think asking for biblical backup is therefore unreasonable - especially coming from the person that she has called numerous times not a true christian.

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                As we saw, the scripture provided was overlooked and/or not recognized. One would have to know the words of the bible to recognize the paraphrase. Is that why Jesus spoke in parable? The bible does say that it will not be understood by some. It also implies that the messages are somewhat encoded or something right?

                1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                  MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  I've read the Bible several times. Your paraphrase was so inaccurate as to represent no identifyable verse in the Bible.

                  Even the section you did quote was horrible skewed from any version of the Bible available... including not having the correct number verses, the verses not lining up, and the meaning being changed.

                  Why would you not post the verses, since you knew them so well. If it was just ignorance of what specific verse you were quoting, the problem has been solved by the link to an online bible portal.

                  So you should never have to "paraphrase" again.

                  Now, again, when James says that faith alone will not save you... what do you think he is referring to being saved from? Here is the original question, along with the passage that you haven't answered:

                  http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/118740? … ost2532033

        2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
          MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          That is your opinion of course. Since you can't see my heart, you are obviously just using your opinion to pass judgement.

          That's fine, however, since I can see my heart I know you're wrong. To show her views are correct, you would have to say that the Bible lies. I can't accept that, no matter how much you want to stand up for her.

          I thought we had agreed on that. Apparently, I was wrong.

          I do wonder, however, how it is that me asking someone to speak the Bible without adding/subtracting/embellishing is incorrect? Especially when they say they ONLY speak Bible.

          If she cannot Google a bible verse, here is a site...

          Problem solved.

          http://www.biblegateway.com/

          Now, when she says that she is speaking biblically, then she can actually do it... instead of making things up based on something she says she read that no one else can find.

          1. oceansnsunsets profile image85
            oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            You are so quick to say people are passing judgement on you I notice.  I was pointing out exactly what I saw and that is just observation.  I was being very kind, genuinely looking at all sides.  It isn't rational or reasonable to dictate how people ought to post or else their posts don't count.  That isn't me judging you.  I will always stand up for anyone I see being treated unfairly.  Her ideas weren't foreign ideas, and my guess is that you could have found the verses for her, or any of us could.  I don't think it was about that.  She was right, you were right, both talking about different subjects. 

            It is nice that you posted that link, though she said she uses that on occasion.  Still, that was MUCH more than before, so thanks.

            1. profile image0
              Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              That's what you saw throughout that discussion? 

              Fascinating.

            2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
              MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Well, as you are assigning motives to me that I obviously don't have, it's pretty obvious that -failing omniscience, you can ONLY be passing Judgement.

              It is completely reasonable to ask someone for a bible verse when they are saying they speaking Biblically? Do you disagree with that?

              In addition, I really don't want to discuss her issues and emotional turmoil. She has said before that she isn't speaking for herself anyway, but only for God... so that shouldn't be an issue.

              If she would like to discuss her emotional issues, she is free to do so, however I have no interest and won't be discussing it.... which is exactly what I said. It's setting boundaries for my own conversation. Not directing her posts.

              1. oceansnsunsets profile image85
                oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Nah, my pointing out how "not cool" that was, isn't passing judgement more than to say it isn't cool.  If someone had done that to you, I would do the same.  I think its is a great idea to not discuss with anyone that you have problems with, so you get no argument from me for  not wanting to discuss with her.  It is probably a great idea.  I am sure that if she wants to discuss works vs faith for salvation with people without posting verses (if she continues to not want to for whatever reasons or the ones she DID affirm and give), there will be some that may or may not want to discuss that. Sounds fair.

                1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                  MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  I don't have any problems at all with her. Although I do think that leading people away from what the Bible says is a problem, but it's not with her personally.

                  I asked her if she wanted to discuss any other verses and we continued in that vein.

                  It is completely acceptable for me to state my limits (being not to discuss her emotional turmoil) and ask if she wants to continue with the conversation. People do it all the time.

                  And it wasn't the cool part that was passing judgement, it was assuming that you knew my intentions... which requires a skill you do not possess.

            3. JMcFarland profile image83
              JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              do you not see it as unfair treatment when Genaea, phoenix (both with sarcasm) and you were all addressing Melissa at the same time, but when two or three people address Genaea's posts critically, it's suddenly unfair treatment and should be addressed?  I see that as blatant hypocrisy.  Melissa doesn't need to be defended.  Genaea has stated that she doesn't care about being defended and can handle herself (since she has the spirit and all) yet you automatically jump to defend her - from what?  From more than one person talking to her?  Telling them that it's none of their business?  Saying that it's an attack?  Why is it only attack when someone is criticizing a Christian (at least a christian that you happen to agree with more often than not) but have no problem jumping on the bandwagon when it's three against one - against ANOTHER christian?  The way that genaea addressed Melissa was identical to the way that you say melissa addressed her - but you see no problem with it at all, yet only criticized one.  Why is that?

              1. oceansnsunsets profile image85
                oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                No, not from more than one person talking to her.  She can definitely hold her own, but it doesn't make being treated unfairly ok.  Addressing people at the same time happens all the time, and no that isn't the issue.  Sometimes it is though, but not tonight that I saw.  It was between two, now more though. I don't find your evaluation of the discussions to be totally fair, and somewhat biased.  I was trying to be fair to all involved.  I will continue to try to be.  If you go back a few pages, you wouldn't disagree with me.  Going back a few more pages, you will see that CGenaeas big crime tonight was not posting the verses verbatim with references and she took heat for it.  So Melissa asked for others to help and we did.  That is nice.  She thanked me, others did too and to Phoenix.  If you care to show a post from Genaea tonight that shows she was acting in kind, please show, I probably missed it.  Since you seem to know for fact, I know it won't be hard for you to find, and then we can hopefully resolve it for you to your satisfaction.  If I don't see it though, and you don't provide the same treatment (identical you said), then I will maintain my position.  Thanks and I will apologize for not catching that sooner.

                1. JMcFarland profile image83
                  JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Ocean,
                  I'm not really interested in having you apologize for missing something.  People miss things all the time.  Sure, I could dredge back through the thread and find your examples, but we won't see them the same way at all - and that point has been made abundantly clear. 

                  I think Melissa's point was that she disagreed with something Genaea was maintaining, and asked for specific Bible verses that supported her point.  Genaea couldn't be bothered, and since what Genaea was saying went against what Melissa knows the Bible to say, she requested them again - to no avail.  Sure, my observation may be biased - but I find yours to be slightly biased in the other direction.  We're each entitled to our own opinion, so I suppose we'll just leave it at that.  There's really no seeing eye to eye.  We all have our own biases, but not once did I see melissa insult her personally or launch an offensive attack on her.  It was a biblical disagreement.  It happens, which explains the 40,000 denominations quite clearly.

                  1. oceansnsunsets profile image85
                    oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    This is what I thought.  I just wanted to offer that opportunity to prove me wrong with actual facts that I might have missed.  I didn't think I missed anything vile from Genaea, but did notice some verses from Proverbs posted to Genaea that were about fools speaking opinions and needing to cover their mouth, etc, in a discussion about faith vs works, lol.  It wasn't just a biblical disagreement, if you read my posts, Melissa and CGenaea  were defending two different things, which I explained in detail as I saw it play out.  It was totally unnecessary actually, and when we all posted verses for the different sides anyway, it was seemingly cleared up.  Hours later I saw her being gone after still, to explain what you saw when you arrived.  Both were right in their stances, as I saw.

                  2. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    See oceansnsunsets? Nothin... it happens a lot.

            4. PhoenixV profile image63
              PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              It is not about judging or passing judgement or being judgmental, thats just a game. 

              A ten dollar Rolex either keeps good time or it does not.

  28. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    Exorcism and "other" tongues are very possible acts of faith.

    1. profile image0
      Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      I don't know about that. Acts makes it pretty clear that those things happened for real - not just that they were possible.  Is Acts a parable?  Metaphor?  Allegory?  Or are we to interpret it literally?  What does the spirit tell you about that?

      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        The bible states that the "body" of God has many parts. Each part serves a certain purpose.  But it is the same body. Not each of his people receive the same gift or fruit or amount of talents. But each is responsible for their talents.

        1. profile image0
          Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Okay.  I know what the bible says about the gifts of the spirit.  You said something completely different.  And that particular passage doesn't address this issue as it is addressed in Acts. 

          So is that a yes, you believe in those things or no, you don't?

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Not everyone has the gift of tongues, or snake handling,  or excorcism. Some are capable not all. So POSSIBLY still stands. Can you see that??? I'm smooshed against the corner but my answer is intact.

            1. profile image0
              Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Okay...I'm taking that as a yes.  You do believe them as manifestations of the Holy Spirit, but not in them all happening at once in the same person at the same time.

              That was already a given.  smile

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Some not happening in some people ever. Not all God's children have the gift of speaking in tongues. Or any other gift for that matter.

                1. profile image0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Agreed.  But I was really just looking for a yes or no.

                  smile

        2. profile image0
          Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Now this brings up a question of its own. You mentioned different functions but one body of Christ? If there are different parts of the body with different functions, then how can a hand tell the foot that it does not belong to the body just because they do not have the same function and their functions contradict one another? Even though their functions are different, each have their own role to the working of the body

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            The only time that one looks at the foot's position it is to say, "hey, you're a little cocked today, straighten up" which is what the body was instructed to do. Not according to opinion;  but according to the very valuable and must needed word of the bible that is to be trusted for reproof. This is not a personal endeavour. The bible speaks to the body of Christ. Those who do not believe are not of the body.  To walk with someone harmoniously, there must be agreement.

            1. profile image0
              Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              There is a difference between telling the foot to straighten up and telling it it does not belong. Now as far as walking harmoniously, there does not have to be agreement in all things for two to live in harmony with one another. There can be disagreement between two people in one aspect of life but still respect for differences and bonds formed from other shared interests. The primary thing necessary for people to live harmoniously is an understanding of one another as well as a respect for differences. Also in the midst of that is to also avoid discussion of things in a manner that would bring disharmony. This is what I've learned in my life. Its not simply about being liked. Its about having an understanding of whom you are speaking with before trying to be understood yourself. It's very difficult for me to see one thing about a person that I disagree with and write them off as that being the total of their existence.

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                I understand. But my observation was not a once or twice occurrence. It was consistent agreement and harmony.
                Jesus agreed with God alone. All who didn't, got...well you know. 
                When one agrees with God, he agrees with what is written as a whole. Jesus did. He said it is written more than once. What he said is of the most importance. He sent us a whole spirit to help us remember.  (Did you pick that up as being a biblically considered phrase??? I'm just testing something) Yes, we are to be kind and gentle as followers of Christ. But truth is more important than any of that. Jesus would never stray from truth to reel them in.
                He said,  "Are you coming Man? You gotta sell your stuff. Going once... goin... gone. Take care..." Or something like that. smile
                A pause for, "What's wrong little Buddy? Dontcha WANNA believe in my father?" just does not seem as something Jesus would have done. If he doesn't accept truth as it is; he probably won't.
                My foot cant be stuck lollygaggin...we goin this way. smile lol

                1. profile image0
                  Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  True, Jesus never strayed from the truth. However, he did adjust his presentation of the truth as according to who he was dealing with. He was hard where he needed to be and also gentle where he needed to be. The key was in discerning the specific need. Other than helping others and teaching love and tolerance, his teachings were not a blanket one size fits all teaching. There are two things with observed behavior. The first thing is that what you see may not be (and in some cases certainly not) the full story. The other thing is that even if there is a full story there, a discerned need must be met more often than not in order for a message to be received. If a man is hungry, he is more likely to listen to you if you feed him. Unfortunately, some would withhold food until the message is accepted rather than give the example of the message then the words of the message. Ultimately, as you pointed out, we each have an assignment and a function within the body. Just because one person doesn't understand the assignment of another doesn't mean that the assignment is false

                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Right. Jesus did not stop to talk to people who didn't believe him unless to blast.
                    The women and children he fed were the people who listened to him speak all day.
                    The people he served requested his services because of faith they already had. He healed the faithful. He walked with and reached out to the faithful. Only.

    2. jonnycomelately profile image80
      jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      ....and dabbling in the dark arts?

  29. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    smile
    The words stand.
    Character in the eyes of others changes on a whim.
    Persecution was promised on the narrow road.
    ...belief without eyewitness...
    oopsididitagain... smile

    1. JMcFarland profile image83
      JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      No one is persecuting you.   You are not being thrown in jail or threatened.   Your life is not in danger.  Claiming persecution because people disagree with you on a forum completely diminishes the real suffering of others who genuinely are being persecuted for their beliefs or lack thereof.

    2. profile image0
      Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      And I agree with you. Now this brings up another question. Is that persecution only limited to coming from those of opposing faiths? It seems that Christians persecute each other as well. Just because persecution is promised doesn't mean it will come from everyone who does not believe. There are some who don't believe but are still seeking more knowledge and information. As such it is still assignment to provide instruction and word to those who ask.

      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Persecution can be given within and outside of the "brethren" but it is the one who says and does as Jesus commanded who the bible promises this persecution to. The bible tells us that the road is narrow and not preferred. Often times lonely and unpopular.
        To you and Melissa: no Christian may judge another. But obvious errors are to be discussed. If you see a brother overtaken in a fault you are to restore them if you are spiritual.  That means if I see you type, "yeah, the bible must be tainted in some areas because it was touched."  I am supposed to say, "then what do we use for reproof?"  Or if I hear you say, "Jesus accepted all kinds of mindsets into his camp. " I need to say, "God has one mind. The gate is narrow,  Christ is the way. Not just speaking the words but acting on them." The works of Abraham and Rahab were mentioned in the works section because their works were acts that showed they believed. Abraham believed God. Adam didn't. But we don't call Adam the father of faith. smile Adam believed another message.

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
          MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Indeed, and such discussion requires the actual word of God, not the word of another Christian that says "It says so in the Bible". As a matter of fact, the Bible says not even to associate with those who are teaching differently than you have learned. (Romans 16:17)

          So yes, the actual word of God (the Bible) is required. Even then, saying that a verse means something the the other doesn't think it means requires other verses to back it up.

          So, saying "That's wrong, or that's against God" is being judgmental. Saying "Here is a verse" is instruction.  There is no Christian wiser than another. If both are believers and both are following the words of Christ, then both are equal. Therefore, there is no one "true" Christian.

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Now that is a broad statement. Truly.

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
              MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Galatians 3:28, Colossians 3:9-11. The bible makes some pretty broad statements.

        2. profile image0
          Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Right. But the behavior you have exhibited has not been solely on those statements. Neither myself nor Melissa have an issue this the statements you just made. Those are not judgments. Those are serious questions in the discussion of the bible. Where it falls under judgment and condemnation is when you state that someone that may have a different view is not a real Christian or that they are on the broad path. It is not your place to judge the walk of another believer as you cannot know where they are in their walk with Christ. You, Melissa, and I all agree that the path is through Christ and both Melissa and I accept Christ. You have stated that there are some elements of the bible that you are not concerned with (such as history, also when and where some things weresaid and done). That does not make you less of a Christian for not being concerned about those things. Melissa doesn't care much about a majority of the OT because most of those laws were for the Jews and Levites. Her focus is Christ and living as good of a life as possible. My perspective of the Bible surrounds the one whom my faith and beliefs were named for, which is Christ. Now how I apply that example does not take away from the message in Any way shape or form. Yes, I'm kind to a lot of people in general, but I am also firm in my stance on the bible andy beliefs. I am also straightforward with the message and have no problem saying I don't have the answer but seek the word for it. My faith only make up one part of who I am and I do incorporate that faith in the things I do in other areas of my life. But I cannot and do not limit myself solely on my faith in God. As part of my faith, I also put in works necessary forthe fulfilment of my faith because as it was mentioned, one cannot stand without the other.

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            I did not pick your views out of a hat. Neither view.  My so-called judgment is based from your output. You side with atheists more often than not. She does not feel it necessary to "indoctrinate" her children.  Do you or anyone else see either of those actions alone to be faithful acts?

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
              MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              You keep mentioning my Children... Are you seeking guidance on how to raise yours?

              Oh, and might you be answering the one question I asked several times about the James verses?

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                The bible tells me how to raise mine. Who tells you?

                1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                  MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  The Bible also. That's why I homeschool. Do you need those verses?

                  Again, that question on James?

                2. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Proverbs 13:24 ESV
                  Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.

                  Proverbs 23:13-14 ESV
                  Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

                  Deuteronomy 21:18-21 ESV
                  “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

                  Proverbs 22:15
                  Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

            2. profile image0
              Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Look at what I have agreed with them on. If a certain behavior does not make for productive discussion, I point it out. If I note an action that may not be lining up with Christ, I point it out as
              Well. The fact that atheists say the same thing is secondary to the fact that I am observing a behavior. I also speak to the atheists as well on correction when they go too far overboard. Once again, observed behavior does not tell the entire story. Sorry, but you do pick my views out of a hat. You choose to only focus on those actions that run opposite what you would do(mostly because I do have atheist friends). Your picture of my views is very inaccurate. There is a saying: It's easy to dismiss one person's observation, but when several people observe the same thing it becomes harder to refute. When i have pointed out where some of your actions may not line up, i provided scripture to back it up. Youre saying that when you tell the foot that it is crooked and needs to get in linewith the body then it is crooked, but when that foot tells you the same regarding your actions you dismiss it as false. You cannot have it both ways. You choose to only accept it from some Christians, but when others do it you dismiss it even when you are shown the bible in context (no I'm not referring to some of the earlier scriptures).

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                I am not really sure what the argument here is. Many people do not like my posts. It was promised in scripture that those who speak what it says would not be popular.  It is so often seen as judgment when it is rather a reminder one would rather not be reminded of. Atheists do not want Jesus/God reminders and the skeptical are not sure rather they do or not. smile
                As for the foot correcting the hand. There are rules. One would sound silly holding one's hand from doing its job.  For instance, you told me to stop communication with you because we argued about your approaching me to tell me how harshly I delivered my message to the fragile and precious ears of your friends who basically said to me, "shut your freaking pie hole there aint no evidence for your foolish delusional very mean-spirited God who most likely does not exist."
                I had a nice little discourse with you and a few others about how my actions were definitely outside of the spirit of Christ. And nothing like him because he was gentle and kind to ALL he encountered.  The conversation ended though and I was barred from speaking to you (by you) ever again under threat of the authorities because I was THEN "harrassing" you by asking for an example of Jesus buddying up with or pursuing one who totally denied his message. No response for that ever came.
                You came to me to tell me how cruel I was being to the ears of your pals and to report to me that my actions fell short of Christ.  To me, I had him down; you seemed a bit wavery.
                Do you feel that the entire bible is a sound document and should be used for correction? Let's see if you may provide a response...

                1. profile image0
                  Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes, the bible is a sound document to be used for correction when actually USED for correction. The argument here has morning to do with the bible. What the argument here is (and always has been between me and you) is how you make the claim and assertion that I am not a christian because you disagree with my friendship with some atheists. Also as it relates to your actions against my friends, I have not only tried to correct you with my friends, I have also attempted to help and correct you with those who are not my friends as well. As I stayed before, I have only four friends here on HP that o interact with outside of HP, two Christian and two atheist. I have no issue with using the bible to correct and clarify things to anyone who is willing to be open to correction. There is a difference between using the bible as a tool or rod of correction and using it for attack and abuse. I already know how you're going to respond to this, but your use of it often falls in the latter category. You have even done it to other Christians. The spirit gave you what you needed to get you through. But the holy spirit also works within others the same way. A relationship with God is personal. He deals with each of us individually as according to what's in each of our hearts. You cannot rightly judge someone to be false because God's message to an individual spirit within the general message may be different from your own. Even in correcting others, it must be firm but gentle as well. On top of everything else, we are told to love our neighbor as ourselves. I know the things I speak to my self shows a lot of love for me. As such my speaking to others also reflects the love I have for myself.

                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    For the record: you started the flow with your confrontation of my not being like Christ. Remember??? So the finger-pointing and labeling started with you. In defense of my journey, I stated what the bible states about where the loyalty of Christ was. And was NOT...

                2. profile image0
                  Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  And me telling you not to speak to me is had nothing to do with what you were saying to anyone else. I told you (and I stand by it) that there is no need for us to talk if you are going to insist on saying I'm not a Christian. As siblings on Christ, we are supposed to correct one another, not attack each other's faith and pass judgment on who is or who is not a Christian. You and I can discuss bible all day and I welcome that. But if you don't think I'm a true christian even though I tell you that I have acceoted the narrow gate then there truly is nothing for us to discuss because if you cannot provide instruction biblical living without judging and attacking who someone is currently then people cannot learn from you. Its like presenting a meal on a filthy garbage can lid. The food might have been good, but it becomes contaminated by the presentation. Now if your goal is to say whatever you wish to say and however you wish no matter how the message of God looks to another when coming from your hands and lips, then by all means God bless you. But if you wish to save souls and change lives (which is what Christ wanted us to do) then maybe a slight change (not total because tje message must still be firm) of approach may possibly need to be examined. Ultimately, it all depends on your goal. What is your goal here on HP? What are your intentions?

                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    I watched the Cosbys too! smile But Jesus didn't. He separated the yeas from the nays. For biblical clarification since I'm accused... "He who is not for me... (Melissa! You know the rest of this one?) is against me. And NO! I don't know where it is! smile
                    It was you who approached me...to TELL me that I was OFF on my Christ...

            3. profile image0
              Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Melissa not indoctrinating her children into religion is different from not teaching them about faith.

              Both are acts of the faithful as I am helping by telling them toake sure their actions are lining up with Christ's teachings and example. Melissa does not want her children exposed to doctrine set by organized religion. Her acts are of faith because she does teach of Christ

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                What I heard sounded a bit more like.  They may believe in whatever they want when they get old enough to ask and understand that God stuff. And she will not be shoving her views down their little innocent throats because ice-cream's much better! smile or something else just like that.

                1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                  MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Well obviously, from your butchering of scripture, your "paraphrasing" skills and memory are a bit off. Maybe you could post what I said again... in my words.

                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    How would you know? LOL...

                2. profile image0
                  Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Often there is a difference between what is said and what is heard, especially when what is "heard" is not what we want to hear. In either case, the ultimate goal is for us to come to him but also in our free will make an informed decision for ourselves

                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    But Christians base their decisions from what?

            4. profile image0
              Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Something else I am compelled to point out. You said your so called "judgment" is based on my output. But you consistently say that you do is Bible based. So this statement appears to be more personal opinion than actual Bible.

  30. MelissaBarrett profile image59
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    Um... Cgenaea, don't you mean that Christ hit the switch? It is his words, the words of the scripture, that are supposed to lead. Not you. That's why I suggested you use his words not yours.

    You seem to be against that suggestion, for some reason.

    1. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Whatsoever do you mean?

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
        MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Well, it sounded like you were taking credit for flipping the switch. Obviously, you wouldn't be doing that, so I clarified your post so that other's didn't misread it as you taking credit for leading people to Christ (although honestly, I've not seen that happen from any of your posts)... instead of giving that credit to Christ.

        1. Cgenaea profile image61
          Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          I was told that I should let my light shine. Not under a bushel; but on a hill. smile I turned on the switch.

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Isn't that boasting?

            1. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              No. Just correcting your correction of my statement.

          2. wilderness profile image97
            wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Something about...pride.  Pride and...falling...yes?

  31. MelissaBarrett profile image59
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    @ Phoenix  Ah yes, and I strengthened my faith while reading God's word while I was waiting for her to post it...

    I guess she's lucky I wasn't a volunteer worker that she was dependent on, and I'm lucky she isn't a prophet than anyone depends on for God's word.

  32. profile image0
    Beth37posted 5 years ago

    What if we answered 4 questions?

    1.What do I love about God?
    2.What do I love about the lost?
    3.What do I love about other Christians?
    4.What does God love about me?

    1. His love is pure and all consuming. He rescued me.
    2. That they are just like me and in need.
    3. That they are just like me and in need. They are family.
    4. That even when I fail, He see's Jesus.

    1. PhoenixV profile image63
      PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      1 The genius, creativity and compassion
      2 Potential miracles
      3 Strength, character, integrity
      4. God only knows...

    2. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Hi Beth smile
      He forgives and hides fault.
      They have an opportunity to come to know.
      He has chosen well.
      My faith in him.

      We must study and die daily. Our word does not count.
      The argument did get a bit silly; but I do feel it was very important. You were right on schedule.
      I'm glad to finally speak to you.

      1. profile image0
        Beth37posted 5 years agoin reply to this

        As always Cg, hang in there. Love and know that you're loved. smile

    3. MelissaBarrett profile image59
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      1. I love that Christ provides a perfect role model for love, forgiveness, peace and compassion.
      2. Everything- in broad terms. Individual traits in specific people.
      3. Everything-in broad terms. Individual traits in specific people.
      4. I don't know what Jesus loves in me. I wouldn't presume to know his thoughts.

  33. profile image0
    Beth37posted 5 years ago

    It's funny... there is only one person here who claims to be an Atheist (and he has only made one comment)... so maybe we should have a conversation that causes less contention?

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Actually, discussions between Christians especially disagreements on scripture are generally a good thing. We just need to get over this little issue of one Christian saying that another isn't a Christian. That's kinda gumming up the works.

      1. profile image0
        Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        I agree

    2. profile image0
      Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Have I told you lately that I love you, Beth? Good timing

    3. profile image0
      MysticMoonlightposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      It's also funny (not haha) that from what I so often see, Atheists and the non-Christian religions never really have/need to lift a finger to devalue Christianity or hash on Christians really. I'm not saying that they want to in the first place, mind you, but if they ever do/did take the notion, they needn't bother because, frankly, there appears to be seemingly enough Christians doing exactly that all on their own! If anyone out there is one of those that accuse their own brethren of having no faith or accusing other Christians of not being a "true" Christian, think about that. Aren't you then just helping the "case" against Christians/Christianity in a way? All of the division stemming from the -us against them- and the -we're better Christians than they are- within the same "house" can appear to be that as a whole, none of them can see the forest for the trees. Just an observation.

      I'm speaking in general here, Beth. In no way directed toward you specifically. smile

      1. profile image0
        Beth37posted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Before believers were anything, they were human. So if you are surprised that we have the same human nature as non believers, you shouldn't be. It sometimes takes a lifetime to die to the flesh. Most of us battle it every day. It's not easy, believe me. The flesh is strong... stronger when you fight it. Weak only when you deny it completely. No easy task. One only God can assist with.

        1. profile image0
          Rad Manposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Beth, when was the last time you saw atheists arguing about who is a proper atheist? When was the last time you saw us judging each other or even disagreeing with matters of faith? Are you sure it's human nature?

          1. profile image0
            Beth37posted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Pretty sure.

            Let's not pretend Atheists don't disagree. They are, after all, human.

        2. EncephaloiDead profile image56
          EncephaloiDeadposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          I, for one, am not surprised at all, we do indeed have pretty much the same human nature.

          Although, you may want to correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think Christianity teaches us that we are actually evil sinners, by nature, and that if we don't make Jesus our lord and savior, we would automatically go off and commit acts of sin, as it is in our nature to do so?

          1. profile image0
            Beth37posted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Sort of. If you read the Bible, you will see Christians committing sins. Christ admonishes them and sometimes punishes them severely for their sin. Take King David. God took his child for his sin of lust which caused him to murder another man after bedding his wife.

            I spose the difference would be that a non believer would not ask for God's forgiveness and he might continue on doing as he pleases. A believer is called to ask for forgiveness when he sins and is encouraged to flee from the sin that has a grip on him. Much like Joseph fleeing from the Pharaoh's wife. He just flat out ran, leaving his coat in her hands. We as Christian's have a lot of examples for what to do and not to do in circumstances that might lead us to stay in sin.

            1. profile image0
              Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              +1

              The sad thing, as it was pointed out, is that when some Christians sin, others seek to throw them out of the faith rather than correct their behavior in a manner that edifies.


              Great points, Beth

            2. EncephaloiDead profile image56
              EncephaloiDeadposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              I'm not sure how that answers the question of human nature, but a non believer would figure things out for themselves and realize they wouldn't want to murder anyone and don't need forgiveness from anyone, let alone someones god. Perhaps, murdering people is an epidemic in the Christian community running rampant such that they need Jesus to stop, but that isn't the case for most people in the world who prefer not to engage in violent activities because they know its not in their nature to do so.

        3. profile image0
          MysticMoonlightposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Well, that's not what I was meaning, Beth. I know everyone is human, regardless of whatever faith or non-faith. We will all have common human issues and drawbacks, etc. I'm just saying that when some Christians tear other Christians down, accusing other Christians of having no faith, etc. that it can/does reflect badly on the whole and hurt Christianity and it's purpose, from the outside looking in. Everyone makes mistakes, yes, but it just seems from an outside viewpoint that there is much division within the Christian community sometimes. It's confusing. I'm not saying Christians should and have to behave perfectly but tearing into their own brethren and questioning if they have faith at all or right out and accusing them of having no faith is easily prevented and crossing the line, especially if they have the best interests of the whole in mind and not their own above all else. Yes, they will stumble, of course, but repeated accusations and doubt to some of their own just seems detrimental to me. Just my opinion.

          1. profile image0
            Beth37posted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Focus on those who are having victory in their walks. It's less confusing that way. Or check in with those who are struggling in a few years and see if they're doing better... life is a journey. It's not all defined in one moment.

          2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            I agree. That may seem hypocritical, but this whole exercise actually did have a point. I'm big on that... and it's likely one of my more annoying traits. I've discussed this point with others. My intentions, I think, are actually good.

            1. profile image0
              MysticMoonlightposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              I believe your intentions are good, Melissa. I totally get and understand where you were coming from and where you were headed in and with your points and posts. I want to also just say that although both you and Deepes were repeatedly having your faith questioned and doubted by other Christians here, you guys never did likewise unto them. Even in heavy disagreement with them, you guys did not doubt or question their faith. That said a lot about you guys and your character. A great Christ-like example from you both!

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Deepes is great like that. He generally stays calm no matter what.

                I am given to episodes of sarcasm and irony.

                But no, Christianity shouldn't be about "I'm holier than you are" (among Christians vs. Atheists or other faiths) or "I'm a Christian and you aren't" (among Christians verses Christians). When I see someone start walking across a lake, I might accept that judgement.

                1. profile image0
                  MysticMoonlightposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  I, too, have a case of the sarcasms. I can totally relate. It's a climb, we'll get there. Maybe wink

                  Right on.

                2. profile image0
                  Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  I'm more of a dip my hands person myself

              2. PhoenixV profile image63
                PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                I have never met anyone that is more adversarial anti-Christian, in over a decade (over 10 years and hundreds, if not thousands of people) of debating Christianity, even back on AOL and Myspace. Even atheists are not that adversarial anti-Christian 100% of their time and even atheists know that a "made up" doctrine of Salvation or Faith that is only possible through works is a complete fabrication or distortion of Scripture.  So I am not sure what planet you live on or what color the sky is there, but that is my experience.

                1. JMcFarland profile image83
                  JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  I have a sincere question for you, PhoenixV.  Do you treat others like you wish to be treated?  Do you think your posts here to me and others reflects the admonishment of Christ to turn the other cheek and be good to others who treat you poorly?  It seems with all the sarcasm, the mocking and the everything else that you're more of an eye for an eye kind of guy, regardless of how someone who disagrees with you speaks to you.

                  1. PhoenixV profile image63
                    PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Here is a sincere answer for you. Create a website, throw an embed chatroom on it and we will discuss it all you like smile  That way we can discuss it uninterrupted. Trolling, flaming, rat finking etc a no holds barred nice chat betwixt you and I smile

                2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                  MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Was someone talking about a salvation through only works doctrine besides you?

                  1. PhoenixV profile image63
                    PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Was anyone creating strawmen besides you? Looks around? Huh What ?

                3. profile image0
                  MysticMoonlightposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Your words are thick with bitterness and seething of distain...NOTHING at all like Christ. Oh well, it's only you that it's harming. Have a great night, PhoenixV.

                  1. PhoenixV profile image