End Time Prophesy

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  1. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    Sir Dent, Phoenix,  sounds as if we all agree to me. Many different scriptures. It all works together.  And the old was a precursor to the new.

  2. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    When you call them, they shall come; and I so appreciate it. wink

  3. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    Maybe they had time even being immortal. Night/day denotes time passage.  But heaven will ALWAYS be lit.

  4. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    Many words of scripture give warning to them that add or take away from scripture.  It is not a condoned practice. This becomes part of causing a brother to sin. "God is ok with sexual sin because he made me to have these desires." That is one I hear often. Or the famous,  "God wants you to pay his bills (at the church) and he will pay yours" is another that I have heard many times.  The list goes on and on.
    Adding and taking away from the words of God also has stiff consequences.

    1. profile image0
      Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Out if curiosity, given this statement, how do you justify your adherence to the Protestant bible-66 books.  The originally codified and canonized Christian bible contained the Apocrypha-the Roman Catholic Bible still does-72 books total.  Which one do you think is God's official count?

      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Good question. I do not adhere to lamb slaughter or ho stoning smile if that's what you mean. That stuff came before what we adhere to now (the commands of Jesus). The 66 books that I have are precious to me. Another's 72 may have the same effect on him. However,  I believe firmly that the 66 I have are fully sufficient.
        How's that???

        1. Zelkiiro profile image93
          Zelkiiroposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          My favorite book is the Song of Solomon. What do you think about it?

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Hot OT biz... wink I think my favorite is Romans. But all NT books are kinda special. Why Solomon?

            1. Zelkiiro profile image93
              Zelkiiroposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Because it contains this verse:

              "My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him." - Song of Solomon, 5:4

              Fun Fact: In the King James Version of the Bible, words that weren't in the original language are added in italics. <3

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Sounds interesting.

              2. PhoenixV profile image63
                PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                I am curious as to why you like that particular verse, because of the translation?

                1. Zelkiiro profile image93
                  Zelkiiroposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Because it's about fisting~!

                  Giggity giggity giggity goo!

                  1. PhoenixV profile image63
                    PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Lovely.

                    SOS is of particular interest to me because I have my own personal interpretation, which is probably a no no.

                  2. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    The hand was just BY the door not all up in it. Or is that not what you see?

        2. profile image0
          Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          It answers the question quite clearly.  You're perfectly okay with removing from Scripture what YOU don't find perfectly relevant or sufficient.  How come you don't like when others do it?

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            I don't get it... I don't change what I have. If other information was added or not taken away from other books, I feel no qualm arising about it. So maybe I am not fluent in apocrypha, but I do know the rest of it smile is that ok? I mean, is there some groundbreaking information that I am missing?  If so, is there something you want to share???

            1. profile image0
              Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Well, I'm just curious as to how you justify only adhering to the 66 books, when the whole bible contains 72.  It doesn't concern you that the bible you follow isn't the same as that of the early church?  How do you know which one is right?  I mean, there were no Protestants for over 1500 years after Christ...so you aren't a little worried that the bible that was good enough for Christians for over 15 centuries was hacked before you got to it?

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Yes! Especially if I'll be damned without the info. What have I missed? Fyi...again all 66 books are not for my instruction or adherence but fMi... so I am willing to assert that the missing  6 books are probably not for my instruction. Will you tell me different?

                1. profile image0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  I'm just pointing out that your words are inconsistent.  You claim that the consequences of adding to or taking from scripture are dire, but are unaware that the 66 books to which you refer aren't the complete scripture....and not according to me, but according to those men, who, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, made the bible with 72 books....until the Protestant reformers decided they didn't want them all in there. 

                  What damns you?  The fact that you live, learn, and study from a Protestant bible?  Your salvation is assured by JESUS-the WORD of God-not by the bible.  While inspired by God, what's in there is just words. But I might make the very gentle suggestion that if you're going to defend the bible as vehemently as you do, you would be well served to learn more about it.

                  That's all.

                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Yes!!!!!!! Ab-so-lute-ly NOTHIN'!!! wink you feel that inconsistency describes my argument?  But I am not misleading about what I have. And OBVIOUSLY there is nothing that you can tell me about it that would send my soul to hell in its absence. So, biblically, I am not missing out. And I'm fine with that.

  5. DzyMsLizzy profile image94
    DzyMsLizzyposted 5 years ago

    Some will not like what I have to say, but here it is:

    I believe the entire concept is a crock of steaming nitrogenous waste material, conceived to keep people afraid and under control of religious powers.

    Doomsday predictions have come and gone in repetitive cycles for thousands of years; obviously, they were all wrong, as both we and the planet are still here.

    Therefore, it is an event that probably won't happen, certainly not in our lifetimes, and in any case, the time and manner is not anything we can know.  It will happen when and if it happens, and there's nothing that can be done about it, and certainly nothing to be gained by fretting, stewing, and worrying over it.
    Quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of seeing this tired old topic get raised time and time again.  I just roll my eyes and say, "Oh, brother!  There they go again!"

    1. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      What is it that keeps one from just rolling their eyes and walking away??? I am so curious about it.

      1. JMcFarland profile image83
        JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Freedom of speech.  You know,  that same thing that keeps you here arguing over history that you know very little about.

        1. Cgenaea profile image61
          Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Bible is my subject. History is yours.
          On another note...I do not care HOW FREE my speech is and how interesting the topic for the day,  I will NOT go to no tooth fairy debate. Ya know??? I do not believe she exists.  And IF I were unsure, I would not go to the debate looking for a confirmation of NO... some things are beyond explanation. The bible oftentimes. And nonbelievers who read and quote from the bible everyday.

          1. JMcFarland profile image83
            JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            You have had this explained to you at least a dozen times by a dozen different people,  which means you don't give a damn what they say,  you don't WANT  to know.   So stop asking the same question when all you do is ignore the answer and then brag about how humble and smart you are

            1. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              smile he-he-he
              So you think that I miss having to re repeat most of my statements??? No one can hear me. You notice??? Explaining a penchant for hashing and rehashing fiction is a bit irrational.  And the hardcore study of it...? ...off the charts.

          2. EncephaloiDead profile image56
            EncephaloiDeadposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Actually, they are both subjects JMcFarland appears to excel.

            It's not a big deal to admit meeting someone who has a far better grasp of the bible and history than most of us here, especially you. You're should listen to JMcFarland rather than argue, you just might learn something.



            Of course, believers steer clear of everything they don't accept to believe on blind faith, that's the hypocrisy of it all.

            1. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              I understand your statement; I really do. But J McFarland is ungodly. As such, she may teach me nothing about the kingdom of God. The bible says so. Ask her. smile And then ask her what the bible says about those who turn away once having known...

              1. profile image0
                Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                There is quite a difference between being godless and being ungodly.  One may not believe in Jesus as the son of God and often still behave more like him than those whose every other word is his name.  That's the case with Julie.  She may no longer be a practicing or believing Christian, but she is still kind, generous, loving, accepting, forgiving, and charitable-some of those features are sorely lacking in modern Christians.

                1. Cgenaea profile image61
                  Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  I hear you but the bible says NO UNGODLY COUNSEL.  now...will she instruct me in the ways of my Lord? Uh... I'll give you a second to think on that as I ask; will she show me how to be a better servant of God? See, I need someone whose every other word is his name. wink to learn from. Anymore suggestions?

                  1. profile image0
                    Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    My only suggestion would be to refrain from judging others.  According to the bible as it was given to YOU.  Others read the one that says to love others-not say judgmental and insulting things about them in a public forum.  In case you forgot, Jesus didn't come for the ones who held themselves equal enough with God to judge his people.  Her differences make Julie exactly the kind of person from whom you should occasionally receive counsel.

              2. JMcFarland profile image83
                JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                threats are the prerogative of those who know nothing else.  Thank you for finally being honest and exposing your position.  What does the Bible say about those who presume to speak for God and judge another's soul?   It would have been better for them had they not been born. ..

                1. Cgenaea profile image61
                  Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  No judgment needed; just eyes. I read what you yourself type.

                  1. JMcFarland profile image83
                    JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    You want to know something, genaea?  If you think you're the example of what it means to be godly,  I am grateful that you think I'm nothing like you.  That's the best possible compliment and affirmation someone like you could EVER say to me.

              3. profile image0
                Rad Manposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Ungodly? Would Godly mean like a God? Do you consider yourself Godly (like a God)?

                1. Zelkiiro profile image93
                  Zelkiiroposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Well, the serpent did tell Eve that eating the fruit would make her like God, and that nature is supposed to be passed down to all of us...

                  So wait, if we're all like God, and God wants no other gods before him, then that means suicide really IS the only answer!

                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    The serpent lied. We will never come close in this lifetime. We must make a conscious effort to stay close to God. Opposing suggestion is a daily function. He loves every one of us with all our faults.  He only asks for your heart. (And don't start with the bloodstuff; you know what I mean.

                2. Cgenaea profile image61
                  Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Stop it. That's a spiritual question.

              4. EncephaloiDead profile image56
                EncephaloiDeadposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                JMcFarland may very well be undeniable, undercooked, unhinged, unwavering, unstable, unstoppable, undernourished, whatever. That is entirely irrelevant to the fact that she is far more knowledgeable of the bible, history, the history or the bible and probably a great deal more than you, which is why you could learn a lot.

                Besides, we are all ungodly, the universe is ungodly because no gods are shown to exist.

                1. Cgenaea profile image61
                  Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  You are wrong. The bible is very clear. And I cannot trust one who has turned their back on God to instruct me in his ways. Isn't that also understandable?

                  1. Zelkiiro profile image93
                    Zelkiiroposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    If the Bible is clear, then why do Christians have to torture and mangle it to say what they want it to say?

                  2. EncephaloiDead profile image56
                    EncephaloiDeadposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    No, it isn't understandable at all. The amount of knowledge and understanding JMcFarland has in regards to the bible and history does not change just because she is no longer a believer. She is still exactly the same person with the very same brain.

  6. profile image0
    Deepes Mindposted 5 years ago

    God gave a lot of people their versions of the bible. This is why we should not judge what God gave others as being incorrect as most are led by the spirit. It is only for God and God alone

    1. EncephaloiDead profile image56
      EncephaloiDeadposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      My my, what a sensible God, giving everyone completely different versions of His Word, many contradictory to the next, all of them stating no other version is true.

  7. bBerean profile image61
    bBereanposted 5 years ago

    Mo, did you see my question here earlier? http://hubpages.com/forum/post/2523798

  8. JMcFarland profile image83
    JMcFarlandposted 5 years ago

    One of my friends had a saying that I really like, and I think it's fitting here - regardless of what your beliefs are.  "Never walk away from the opportunity to have the important conversations.   You never know.   The next mind you change could change thousands."

    I don't actively attempt to strip people of their faith,  nor could I even if I wanted to.   I'm here for the conversations and the learning opportunities.   But minds are changed in both directions, and you never know who is watching or paying attention.  How would Christians feel if they knew that someone who was on the fence about their faith was paying attention and was so turned off from their behavior or their portrayal of the gospel that they refuse to consider the possibility of believing.  How would atheists feel if someone who was exploring atheism became more entangled in their beliefs because of the atheists dismissive or mocking attitudes?

    That being said, i have realized that its impossible to have meaningful,  intelligent conversations with some people, and it's really no longer worth the effort.   But I will continue to seek out those opportunities to communicate with those who are willing and able.

    I'm going to go drink now.

    1. profile image0
      Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Have one for me!  smile

      1. profile image0
        Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Then have 6 for me

        1. profile image0
          Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Greedy!  wink

          1. bBerean profile image61
            bBereanposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            All I know is you two are going to get poor Julie plastered.

            1. profile image0
              Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Lol

            2. JMcFarland profile image83
              JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              I'm okay with that

              1. profile image0
                Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                See?

          2. profile image0
            Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Lol! Hey I need a drink too and since Julie is the one doing it... why not. The bible says we should not get drunk, but she is not bound by the bible since she does not believe...lol

            1. jonnycomelately profile image80
              jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              But you need to drink in the right spirit, Deepes......ambiguity for example smile

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                ...sounds like "agreement" to me... but I am sure that I am seeing that INcorrectly.

  9. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    The scripture said that Jesus was hated. And that we who say what he said would be hated as well. Blessed you are, the scriptures say, when men lie on you for the sake of Christ. I've been called harsh, a liar, a script twister, not Christ like, an egomaniac, and a judge. But never am I provided evidence of such acts. Seems just about right to me.
    None of us are infallible. We all err. But the keys to truth are found in scripture, not our consensus. One instance that strikes me currently is a Christian who has deemed it unnecessary to teach their children about God so as to not risk them being indoctrinated or brainwashed. It goes against scripture. I must say so right? I was "judge" there too. But to me, the scripture judged it. I just repeated the scripture that tells us to teach our children and became judge??? But one who has made up their mind to go against is infuriated because scripture allows the spirit to bring to remembrance his commands. And some possibly painful conviction. It's more of a "who told you to remind me Genaea you old mean judge. I got my own plans!"  I am no judge; but bible parrot. I am not rude but honest. If you catch me slipping please say so. But if there is no slip, step aside; I'm coming through.

    1. A Thousand Words profile image74
      A Thousand Wordsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      You seem to have this false sense that somewhere deep down we know that the Bible is true, but we spend our time fighting it because we don't like it. But, I'm sorry to tell you that that's just not the case.

      1. A good portion of the people here were once just as convinced and passionate as you, including myself.

      2. Once we realized that the Bible was full of sh*t through study and simple critical thinking, we understood that it was not the word of God, but a book written by men that has caused as much if not more problems than other holy books. Sure, there's some wisdom in there. You can find wisdom anywhere you look. But a lot of us can look at ourselves in the "truth mirror" just fine and very much handle what we see because we learned to see with different eyes. Or we don't like it and are on a path to improve, but we simply don't use the Bible as a legitimate guide as to what we should see.

      3. You seem to be just as convinced as most fundies that the only thing you should feel bad about is what you either believe is the holy spirit convicting you of, another Christian you believe has authority is telling you, or the interpretation of the Bible passages you read (believe me, honey, even how you read it and understand is still an interpretation, not whatever absolute truth you've convinced yourself you see.)

      4. There are Christians on here who love God/Christ as much as you, but are considerably more tasteful and understand the difference between faith and knowledge. They do not agree with us nonbelievers on everything, and we are able to have discussions while still respecting one another's differences of opinion/belief. You seem to be convinced that you are some warrior to battle on and fight for God, and that because we're holding up a mirror to you that your religion tells you isn't true, you think that means that you're some kind metaphorical martyr. All it really means is that you've closed your mind to voice of the world you're supposed to be sharing your God's love with. You think you are beyond reproach by anyone outside of your religious club.

      1. profile image0
        Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        The thing about points 3 and 4 is that for some people the only reproach that is acceptable is from their own personal spirit. Even with biblical references, some cannot take looking at anything that may show them that they are wrong or barring that will take those scriptures and use them to rationalize how it fits their behavior

      2. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Wow!!! May I please ask you what light bulb allowed you to turn away from God? What study you did personally that did not include others' reports that made you say, this is some load of garbage? I BET I know...

        1. profile image0
          Rad Manposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          I did it all on my own back when I was 13 or so. Many sleepless nights looking at the ceiling trying to understand and unravel all the lies I had been told. Didn't have the internet or youtube back then. Just my mind searching the deepest parts of itself for the truth.

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            I heard recently that your mind is too incapable of really thinking until you are 25. wink you 25 yet?

            1. jonnycomelately profile image80
              jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Ok, you "heard" that.....from whom?  From an original thinker?  What his or her background of study and research.  Can you "believe" what you "heard?"  Is it just something you "want to" hear and believe?

              How does that information which you want to believe stack up against other stuff you are taught?

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Not hardly.

        2. A Thousand Words profile image74
          A Thousand Wordsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          If you know the my answer to the question before I give it, tell me, please. Maybe you're that random person that's been visiting my thoughts...

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Sorry.  I didn't mean to imply that I am a mind reader.

  10. topkatspecial profile image60
    topkatspecialposted 5 years ago

    Who knows, It will happen when it will happen

  11. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    To be included in the clique, you MUST be able to be uncertain about scripture. smile NEVER AN OPTION FOR ME. Here you must be able to say (without wavering wink ) that the bible is very possibly "unusable" and or incorrect so that people will not recognize how WRONG they are and will hopefully come around with enough "love" and concession. I am not the one... We are to use ALL of the word as a mirror, as reproof.  Problem is...some of us cannot stand our own reflection. I am not EXCLUDED but that is not enough for the masses. "TURN OFF THE LIGHTS STUPID GENAEA IM MEEELLLTING!!!" we say without saying. wink say what you will or may. I have NO desire to join a group that works against my best interest. I'll stay out here. If I stand alone.  Like Job, like Noah,  and Shadrach 'nem smile
    Little foxes... evil communication... ungodly counsel... any Googlers??? Judge??? No. But denying scripture is fruit that I do not want on my vines.

    1. Disappearinghead profile image74
      Disappearingheadposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Thing is CG, you accept what the sciptures literally say without asking yourself how they came about, who compiled them, wht were their motives. You trumpet the meme that they do not self contradict, and refuse to investigatd for yourself.

      Nobody is trying to turn you into an atheist here. All I'm saying is that if you are going to throw around bible verses you better make sure you understand what they meant to the author, the original audience, and at least qustion them, ask yourself why you believe them. Some histrical study intotheir origins and comparing one with another cannot hurt you. When you discover the inconsistencies, that the culture of the audience completely overturns your interpretation, that's ok.

      If you've ever been to college apply that method of study to the bible, trust me your eyes will be opened.

      1. profile image0
        Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        The truth in this statement is profound, or would be if it is understood. Unfortunately, there are some of our fellow believers that cannot, or will not, accept any advice that might affect their belief even if the Chang is in why a belief is held if not the belief itself

        1. Disappearinghead profile image74
          Disappearingheadposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Thanks Deepes.

          My wife on more than one occasion has suggested we go back to attending a church as she believes the social interaction might be good for the kids. Whilst that may be true, I do not believe I would be happy amoungst a group of people who dare not question the status quo lest they become a pariah or loose their salvation and go to hell. Is there a church movement that takes a pragmatic view of the bible warts and all, one that is happy to question the accuracy of large chunks of it? If there was i'd like to know.

          1. A Thousand Words profile image74
            A Thousand Wordsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            I think Melissa's church, DH! Btw, I don't think I ever told you how much I liked your Hub on the origins of the Devil. I think Cgenaea should read it. wink

            Oh yeah, and I dont know if you remember me saying this, but you could just start your own church. LoL. I'm only half kidding.

            1. Disappearinghead profile image74
              Disappearingheadposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Thanks ATW, you are too kind.

          2. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Melissa knows.

          3. profile image0
            Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            There are churches that are UU and accept everyone as well as not spend too much time in the OT. they recognize the importance  of it, but its one thing to keep telling people they are poor sinners and need to get right and another to show them a different way by using Christ as the example. Unfortunately, some churches only teach repentance and hell without teaching Christ and how and why it is important to follow those teachings other than to avoid hell

          4. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            The others are correct. The Unitarian Universalist church tends to be a bit more open to an honest look at the Bible as well as all other holy books and teachings. There's some secular, humanistic, atheistic and agnostic thrown in there too. No dogma, just a desire to learn and for each person to find their own path.

            Warning: Its HEAVILY works-based. Volunteerism isn't required, per se, but it's very much encouraged.

            1. profile image0
              Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              That's why it isn't a "real" Christian church roll

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Technically, it isn't. It's a church of all faiths and none.

                That doesn't mean that there aren't "real Christians" in it. Although admittedly, the fire and brimstone crew are few and far between. For some reason, they seem to have a problem with open communication between all faiths and respecting differences therein.

                1. profile image0
                  Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Of course

      2. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Seems to me like you are saying what I said... "doubt them scriptures Girl! They lied to you and you will be all the better once you know what I know" sound about right??? Thing FOR ME is, I accept what the scripture says. I do not allow unnecessary info to choke out the "seed" or carry it away altogether. The bible is true to me. Many people and nonpeople will say or do whatever it takes to discredit it. I just don't go there. Many do; but they must answer for them as I must answer for me. I can see my father standing before me asking, "how did you handle the words that I gave you?" I cant fathom my answer being, well nobody liked those words, so I just went along with them about it or stayed silent so nobody would be offended. smile
        The method of study of the bible; or the other stuff??? See, I'm just not interested in the unknowable history of it.
        I just read that the book of Matt was penned by an "unknown" author. If this is true, we cannot be sure that it wasn't dropped from heaven and left at the door of one of the canonical organizers wink I cannot budge on that.

        1. profile image0
          MysticMoonlightposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          I've never known of a Christian as fearful as you, genaea. I'm not trying to be harsh to you but when I read what you type, fear is what I see. I think the difference between you and some of the other Christians here is that they've investigated, questioned, and searched the Bible, all of it, good and bad, and all of it's history, background, etc. to come to and make the informed decision as to WHY they believe it to begin with. With you, I could be wrong and if so, I apologize, but it seems you just read/study/use it for personal gain (Heaven), reinforcement of your actions, and self-interpretation only. You do not seem to care, nor does it seem to matter why you believe it, just that you are supposed to and do. Again, I'm sorry if it's harsh, but it seems like a shallow path then if all some see in you is the fear to think outside of your own head. Doing so will not make you less of a Christian but will likely fortify your belief and strengthen your faith if it is a strong as you say it is.

          It does not make others less of a Christian because they are informed of things that you aren't or see things differently than you. If you see their knowledge about the faith that you share as threatening to yours, why is that? Fear strangles, stifles, and chokes and because you hold onto it so tightly, it's little wonder then why you feel that you are on that island you mentioned earlier.

          1. profile image0
            Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            A beautiful reminder of why I like you

            1. profile image0
              MysticMoonlightposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Thank you, Deepes smile

          2. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            I am very clear on your points. Fear is not the issue it's faith. Take it as is or leave it is up to each of us. Im taking.

            1. wilderness profile image97
              wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              There are some people that are very dear to me that are also highly religious.  Christian.

              They absolutely refuse to read anything or discuss anything that might shake their faith.  No books looking at historical records of Jesus time.  Nothing about how the bible was created.  No discussion with a non-believer, except an effort to convert them. 

              If faith is shaken, hell awaits around just a tiny bit of doubt.  Never, ever allow such doubt to exist, then, and that means never truly examine beliefs.  Believe, just as you say a child does, without questioning or reason.

              Does it sound familiar?

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Nothing you say sounds familiar. Absolutely nothing.

              2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Just as an aside, where do you get those children that believe without questioning or reason? I'd like to order one. Maybe "Because I said so." might work on them rather than a 15 minute round-table discussion about the pros and cons of brushing one's teeth.

                1. wilderness profile image97
                  wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Naw - brushing teeth doesn't work.  You gotta have something they want anyway - then you work on making them believe it.  Santa Claus, maybe, or the Easter Bunny.

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Sorry, that doesn't work either.

                    The four year old is entirely too intelligent to believe in Santa. She took a look at the presents and then looked at me and said "Mom, I saw that wrapping paper in your closet."

                    I actually find it kind of interesting- Because of the autism, she lacks almost all imagination. Such things as Santa, the Easter bunny etc, are quickly dismissed. She wouldn't buy the God thing unless he walked up and shook her hand. So I think that gives some insight into the type of personality required to be religious.

              3. Disappearinghead profile image74
                Disappearingheadposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                According to a couple Jehovah's Witness sites I've seen, it's the same thing; the reason they are forbidden to associate with other Christians or study the bible without the interpretation of the Watchtower is that such actions may cause them to question the faith. Unfortunately I too have family members who will not tolerate any historical or non-christian examination of the bible, for the same reasons as the Jehovah's Witnesses, yet they criticise the JWs for the exact same thing.

                1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                  MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Which always kind of implied to me that they think God wants mindless idiots... or that God is so pathetic that everyone would pick a different way if they knew about it.

                  It's insecurity. People who want to keep other people ignorant, be it in religion or otherwise, know deep down that they are inferior and people will only agree with them if there is no other option.

                  1. Disappearinghead profile image74
                    Disappearingheadposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    And so we get the old chestnut that we must come like little children, not free thinking adults.

            2. profile image0
              MysticMoonlightposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Well, they(other Christians here) have faith too, just as strong as yours. I hope you can accept that. I guess for some, it's equally important to them how they get to Heaven not just only that they do.

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                I cannot speak for other Christians here, as I don't believe you accurately may. Jesus had guidelines. We are not allowed willy or nilly. Truth is all I'm after. Not evidence that Christ was/is a liar. I know better. See???

                1. profile image0
                  MysticMoonlightposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Who is saying Christ is/was a liar? Certainly not me. I'm not speaking for them, I SEE their (other Christians here) faith here in their words, actions,  and behavior so yes, I can say with confidence that they have faith. I see Christ in them therefore I believe they have faith. That's how it works. See????

        2. jonnycomelately profile image80
          jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          I don't think anyone here is trying to "discredit the bible," Cgenaea.   But they are discreting yourself, often, consistently.  You and your attitude of obstinate refusal to open your eyes and ears to any other possible interpretation.... this is what most people here are willing to argue about.

          1. profile image0
            Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Here is where I slightly disagree with you. From what I've seen here on the forums, there do indeed appear to be some atheists here who try to discredit the bible as a whole because of their hard belief that there is no God. There are other atheists and those tho have a-theistic thoughts who disagree with some of the interpretation and application of the bible while not trying to discredit the bible itself.

            1. jonnycomelately profile image80
              jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Point taken.

              1. profile image0
                Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                I understand what you were trying to say. In se cases, however some would say that an attempt to discredit a person is the same as trying to discredit the bible because they rationalize their approach as coming from the Bible

          2. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            You argue your way;  and I...

  12. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    We must come to him as children ears and hearts open to receive. How many 5 yr olds will be able to believe "your dad is just trying to trick you. These are the real rules he wants you to follow." Or, "your daddy didn't make those rules you need to check HIS background quick before he gets home..."

    1. profile image0
      Rad Manposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      You are right. If you don't want to see reality you need to be very gullible.

      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        And you may continue with "reality" hold the gullible.

    2. wilderness profile image97
      wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Good point.  Children will get in cars with strangers holding candy, for instance.  It is very easy to convince a child something is true when it is not (think Santa, tooth fairy, Easter bunny, etc.). 

      So if we "go to God" as a child would, with a child's gullible mind, lack of life experience and inability to reason, it makes it much, much easier for the priests to be convincing.  I laughed, for instance when my little grandson saw his parents as the TV camera panned over the stadium at the football game, then again a few seconds later when it panned the other side of the filled 50,000 seat stadium.  He knew what he wanted to see, what he wanted to be true, so it obviously was!

      Much the same way, I imagine, as when MLM associates are trained to go after young, inexperienced and gullible people to join.

      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        I said daddy. He is normally trusted without question. I guess some of us kids actually do PREFER the stranger with the big piece of candy though...

        1. A Thousand Words profile image74
          A Thousand Wordsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Didn't you know that sometimes Daddy molests his children? Beats them for no good reason? Should they lean on his every word then? Or is that too specific for the analogy?

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            We were not talking about dads per se. But his children's view of him. Yes daddies here can really suck big rotten eggs.  But I digress...

          2. jonnycomelately profile image80
            jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Are we forgetting that most daddies, uncles, cousins, school masters, Boy Scout leaders, priests are responsible, caring, sensitive, trustworthy and valued MEN?  Just think on this please everyone.  I am talking about the males of our species, most of us with healthy sexual appetites.  Please STOP equating men with doing naughty things with children.  It's a gross distortion intended to belittle and outlaw men in our society.

            Not pushing this post on to you, AThousandWords.  Just using the occasion to fly my banner of protest.

        2. wilderness profile image97
          wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          *shrug* Daddy, Mommy, Uncle, Brother, Sister or total stranger - it makes no difference.

          The point is that children will believe what they want to, making it very easy to confuse them and convince them something is true when it isn't.  Which is what your concept of an invisible god requires - people that will believe without questioning, simply because it makes them feel good.  As good as that candy the stranger has.

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            No. Nothing feels better to a kid than candy. But you have purposefully missed my point. And I understand.

            1. A Thousand Words profile image74
              A Thousand Wordsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              No one missed the point. You're just convinced we missed it because you think you made a good point... And we're explaining why you didn't.

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                You cannot explain to me that I didn't.  My point was made; acknowledged or no.

                1. A Thousand Words profile image74
                  A Thousand Wordsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Your point was made... doesn't mean it was a good point.

                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Thanks. Received.

            2. wilderness profile image97
              wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Actually, I DO understand.  You are trying to make Daddy into God, and thus exclude all others from the necessity of unreasoned belief.  You are trying, again, to force feed the platitudes of the religious to the general public.

              Doesn't work, though - if unreasoned belief is good for you, then it is good for you.  Whether Daddy=god or stranger=god or god is not part of the equation at all.  Better that you forget about the nice sounding, PC platitude and just say what you mean. 

              Come right out and say it, plain so that all can understand exactly what you mean.  That we must not try to reason about god, that we will not and cannot "learn" about Him that way, that using reason will destroy belief, that it is necessary to believe in Him for no other reason than we want to.

  13. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    Yep!!! Jesus respected all positions. He said, everyone can get to the father however they want using WHATEVER method most comfortable for them!!! smile wait...no he didn't.

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      *pats head* Yes dear, whatever you say.

      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Truth... that's what I say. How bout you? Nevermind Dear. I already know what you say.

  14. profile image0
    SirDentposted 5 years ago

    John 15:20  Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

    1. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      How DO you DO that!?!? smile I ALREADY know...

      1. wilderness profile image97
        wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Lay a bible on a table, letting it flop open at a random place.

        Drop a dart from 6' above the bible.  Copy the verse where it lands into the HP forums.

        1. Cgenaea profile image61
          Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          You know better. wink
          Gotta run I'll be back.

        2. Cgenaea profile image61
          Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          You know better. wink

          1. wilderness profile image97
            wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            As nearly everything posted in these forums have multiple interpretations and meanings, as nearly everything (such as those random verses posted here) have no context and thus little to no meaning, because of these things I do NOT know better.  Verses posted without discussion and explanation are without value; you might as well drop that dart.

            1. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              You get all points.  Acknowledge or no. smile

              1. A Thousand Words profile image74
                A Thousand Wordsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                You sound like the teachers that get frustrated with the students they're teaching as though the lecture was supposed to be enough for them to get a handle on what they were supposed to be learning. Always in bad taste for a teacher to assume things about the student (or for a speaker to assume things about their audience.)

                1. Cgenaea profile image61
                  Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  I will withhold what/who you sound like. I'm a Christian smile

                  1. A Thousand Words profile image74
                    A Thousand Wordsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Please withhold nothing. Tell me what I sound like. It sounds like you're taking this personally.

  15. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

    Once one is truly on the path God set, he may not be plucked. Faith grows because God makes himself plainer; teaching at your pace. He gives more and more of himself.  Faith first...if only a tiny bit. NowTHAT is what scripture says. All else is just white noise.

    1. profile image0
      Rad Manposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Scripture also explains how badly you can beat a slave with a stick. Have you given that much thought?

      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Why you always bustin' lose an OT scripture?  You have NO idea what JESUS said???

        1. profile image0
          Rad Manposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Sure I do.
          ‘The Scripture cannot be broken’ (John 10:35)
          ‘Have you not read that which was spoken to you by God?’ (Matthew 22:31)
          ‘Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished’ (Matthew 5:18)
          (Luke 17:29, 32)
          (Luke 11:51)
          (Mark 12:26)

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Understood correctly; not broken.
            Yes, he said, "this is my son; in whom I am well-pleased.
            On the cross, Jesus said, "It is finished." Guess im gonna have to explain what that means???

    2. EncephaloiDead profile image56
      EncephaloiDeadposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      We already know that isn't true due to the fact Christians become atheists.



      That's a good way to describe most if not all of your posts.

      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        I quoted scripture and that word never returns void. If you love me, keep my commands. I believe it's a direct quote.

        1. EncephaloiDead profile image56
          EncephaloiDeadposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Then obviously, you have found yet another part of scriptures that is wrong. Well done.

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Somebody move them tress!!! Somebody can't see the forest.

    3. wilderness profile image97
      wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Really?  Quote, please, clearly showing that god demands faith in Him before He will provide faith through His teaching?

      1. profile image0
        SirDentposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Rom_12:3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

        Edit: Heb_11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
        1Jn_3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

        1. wilderness profile image97
          wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Rom_12:3  For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. (NIV)

          That's quite a difference.  A very major difference, in fact, if you interpret yours as saying that everyone has faith.  Wonder which God inspired version is correct and which one is a lie?

          1. profile image0
            SirDentposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            There is only 1 belief system in the world which states that God took it upon Himself to redeem mankind back to His grace.  All other systems believe you make your own way back to Him.  Can you guess which one?

            1. wilderness profile image97
              wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              No, from that reply I could never guess which which version was correct.  Redeeming mankind has zero to do with built in faith provided by God.

              Can you guess which system is right?  What do you base your guess on?

              1. profile image0
                SirDentposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                My guess is not a guess.  It is by experience.  To hear the voice of God, one must listen for His voice.  I experienced Jesus Christ personally, not corporately as many would suppose.  Of course you are allowed to disregard my experience and count it as dross.  That is a choice made by you yourself, if you choose to do so.

                1. wilderness profile image97
                  wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  So you had faith before you met God, and therefore all others do, too.  (making assumptions here - if incorrect, please say so).

                  That means the NIV, probably the most common version being sold in the world today, is wrong - either God never inspired or "supervised" it or intentionally lied.

                  1. PhoenixV profile image63
                    PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Let me axe you a question. Can a mountain move by faith?

                2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                  MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Just a question, for clarification, do you hear the actual voice of God? Or do you have feelings/urgings that you believe to be supplied by God? I think it would help conversation if you were a bit more specific. Is there an actual voice that sounds different from your internal thoughts? A voice other than the one one might "hear" when they are reading to themselves?

                  1. profile image0
                    SirDentposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Sometimes it is a feeling, like knowing something is around the curve and I need to slow down.  other times it is a voice, still and small teaching and revealing things to me, not like my own screaming voice inside my head.

                3. EncephaloiDead profile image56
                  EncephaloiDeadposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  That's the thing about 'personal' experiences, they are personal and don't affect anyone else, so there is no reason for anyone to not disregard them. Of course, when it comes to claiming you hear voices and meet with gods personally, the validity of the claim is obviously going to get questioned because you're now talking about gods. The fact that others don't hear those voices and don't meet with gods personally is quite extraordinary considering that you say you do. Even the vast majority of believers don't make those claims.

                  The questions are then begged, "Why doesn't God talk with me and meet with me personally? Why does He talk and meet with SirDent?

                  Since God is not speaking with me, I'm not able to get that answer, even though SirDent says, "To hear the voice of God, one must listen for His voice." Unfortunately, no amount of listening has ever received the voice of God to appear. The begged questions remain unanswered.

                  We are left with getting answers from SirDent, who by all means and purposes is completely incapable of explaining this phenomenon, but certainly with an air of superiority will tell us it must be our fault that we can't hear Gods voice speaking to us and His presence standing directly in front of us.

                  Jimmy Stewart's movie, "harvey" immediately comes to mind.

                      " I started to walk down the street when I heard a voice saying: "Good evening, Mr. Dowd". I turned, and there was this big white rabbit leaning against a lamp-post. Well, I thought nothing of that, because when you've lived in a town as long as I've lived in this one, you get used to the fact that everybody knows your name. And naturally, I went over to chat with him.

                      We talked like that for a while and then I said to him, "You have the advantage on me. You know my name and I don't know yours." And right back at me he said, "What name do you like?" Well, I didn't even have to think twice about that. Harvey's always been my favorite name. So I said to him, I said, "Harvey." And, this — this is the interesting thing about the whole thing. He said, "What a coincidence. My name happens to be Harvey."

                      Oh, yes! Yes. Yes — these things always work out just the way Harvey says they will. He is very, very versatile. Did I tell you he could stop clocks? Well, you've heard the expression 'His face would stop a clock'? Well, Harvey can look at your clock and stop it. And you can go anywhere you like — with anyone you like — and stay as long as you like. And when you get back, not one minute will have ticked by. ... You see, science has overcome time and space. Well, Harvey has overcome not only time and space — but any objections."

            2. Disappearinghead profile image74
              Disappearingheadposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              But you dont actually believe that do you. On the one hand you agree God took it upon himself to redeem mankind, then you say all other systems require the user to make their own way back to him. Yet you also say the redemption is effectively null and void if the individual does not make their own way back to him via a sinners prayer or believing what your church says for example.

              1. profile image0
                SirDentposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                There is still a choice to make no matter how you try and spin it.,  Without holiness, no man shall see God. 

                Saved:  1Pe_4:18  And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?   What of the ungodly and sinners?  Where is the regeneration of those that do not believe?

                2Pe_2:5  And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;   What of the rest who did not enter the ark before the rain came? 

                Jud_1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.   What happened to those who did not believe? 

                Rev_21:24  And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.   What about the nations of those who are not saved?  Where will they walk?

                No matter how you try and spin it, either the Written Word is right or it is wrong.  You either believe it all, or believe none of it.  I recall you stated that you spent 25 years in Pentecostal churches.  I wonder why those years were not spent in Christ.

                1. jonnycomelately profile image80
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Because those years were spent listening to fanatical confidence tricksters
                  .  When you gradually come to realise that someone is trying to sell you a lie, it dawns on you all of a sudden that  you must  run a mile very fast .  When you stop running and breathe the fresh air freedom the real truths can come back into your life.   You, Sir, still have time to leave the c..p behind.

          2. A Thousand Words profile image74
            A Thousand Wordsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Both translations actually said the same thing.

            1. JMcFarland profile image83
              JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              I hate to disagree with you, because we agree on so much in the long run, but both versions actually say very different things, and make very different claims.

              The version that SirDent posted says, specifically "God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. "

              Where the NIV that Wilderness says something very different:  "accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you."

              The difference here is "every man" - as in Paul is making the claim that every man has been given the gift of Faith - vs "each of you".  Well, who is the you?  This appears in Romans - a letter that Paul wrote to the Christian house church of Rome.  Therefore, it's reasonable to deduce that the "you" is the members of the church, specifically - and not EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON EARTH.  That is a huge difference.

              What really bothers me about this type of cherry picking that christians do, is that if an atheist takes a single verse, the number one objection we get is CONTEXT.  Were not taking the verse in context, and if we only look at the context, the meaning will suddenly become clear.  The context of this passage is in a letter that is very specific.  It is specifically geared towards the growing church in Rome.  It wasn't meant for the church in Corinth or Galatia.  They got their own letters, with their own contextual clues.

      2. PhoenixV profile image63
        PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Hebrews 11 (King James Version)


        11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

        2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

        3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

        4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

        5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

        6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

        7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

        8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

        9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

        10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

        11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

        12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

        13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

        14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

        15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

        16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

        17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

        18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

        19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

        20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

        21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

        22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

        23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

        24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

        25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

        26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

        27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

        28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

        29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

        30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

        31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

        32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

        33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

        34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

        35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

        36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

        37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

        38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

        39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

        40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

        http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … ersion=KJV

        1. wilderness profile image97
          wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          6 "for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

          Very good.  So if we have no belief (faith) in God, as I do not, then we can never "cometh to God". 

          Nice God you have; we are destined to burn forever if he did not make us with that faith already installed.  And the vast majority through the millennia has not had that faith; most have never even heard of the Christian god.

          1. PhoenixV profile image63
            PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Mr Wilderness, I admire your conservative politics, pro capitalism or whatever from what I have seen or can recall. It is out of respect for that, that I feel inclined to indulge you. I scored top 5% in the country on High School tests that prepare kids for college. I was thinking of going to computer school back in the early 80's and took a test and I could swear the guy said "take your time". so I did and he came in and said times up., because the test was timed. He said he had never seen a score that high, Neverthless my family was broke and I went into the oilfield as just a kid and tripped pipe for days in 105 heatwaves to minus 35 windchill conditions. I got a GED. You got my attention because of your conservative views in politics, which I respect and admire from what I recall however you give the believers grief. It should at least be an educated grief.

            1. wilderness profile image97
              wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Ah, but when the book can be, and is, interpreted to mean anything the reader wants there is neither need nor possibility of education. 

              And I don't try to give believers grief, or least very seldom.  I even support them some of the time.  What I do try to do is teach them to think and more importantly why their method of thinking will never sway a non-believer.

              1. PhoenixV profile image63
                PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Anyways back to logic.

                Reality is based upon - pure actualization. Like you even said- inanimate objects don't have a mind or faith, even if those inanimate objects traverse billions of miles. What do you think?

                1. wilderness profile image97
                  wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Not sure just what you mean by pure actualization, but I did say that inanimate objects do not have a mind.

                  1. PhoenixV profile image63
                    PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    What do you think is an explanation or reason why reality is existing instead of why it is not?

            2. profile image0
              Rad Manposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              That was interesting. I'll sum it up you I may.
              I'm very very smart and respect your political views, but you are being stupid.

              Why the need to tell everyone how smart you are?

              1. PhoenixV profile image63
                PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Mr Wilderness has a bad habit of calling people immature and illogical. I am making him reconsider that.

                1. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  By telling him how smart you are? That'll fix him.

                  1. PhoenixV profile image63
                    PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    I was hoping he could relate to my life.

                2. wilderness profile image97
                  wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  There is no logic in religious beliefs; in that matter I do say that people with such beliefs are acting illogically.  Do you disagree? Is there logic in believing in an invisible, undetectable creature from another universe that built us and loves us?

                  But calling people immature?  You'll have to show me.

            3. EncephaloiDead profile image56
              EncephaloiDeadposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Yet, Melissa corrected your example. Tectonic Plates move and form mountains. Mountains are relatively stationary atop these plates.

              1. PhoenixV profile image63
                PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Yea, Scientist were going to try and stop mountains from moving, but when they ran a simulation, reality reached negative entropy and the universe turned into a popsicle.

    4. MelissaBarrett profile image59
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

      You all really would argue about anything, wouldn't you?

      What the fundamentals refer to as "spirit" and "God's voice" is what others refer to as intuition and conscious.

      The difference is that it tends to lead towards what the Bible says and away from base instinct. Therefore "guided by God."

      I think most Atheists understand that, rather than actually considering it a mental illness... they are just trying to prove a point that it adds to the illogical face of religion.

      I also think most Christians understand this, but want to make it appear more than what it is by upping the "mystic" and "spiritual" theatrics. Obviously, if everyone has it, then it makes it less special that they do.

      Regardless, both sides are just being melodramatic by feigning ignorance for the sake of stirring the pot.

      Just so you know. Please continue your meaningless bickering, by all means, no one would want to have a reasonable conversation when back-biting is so much fun.

    5. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

      Intellect and knowledge starts to OUTshine Faith if one deems necessary.  Lean not unto your own understanding and don't think more highly of self are not decorations.

      1. wilderness profile image97
        wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Sometimes, if truth is what is being searched for.

        Other times, depending on what the goal is, faith is far superior.

        1. Cgenaea profile image61
          Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          You're almost there Mr.Wilderness smile

          1. wilderness profile image97
            wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            If you were to look back over a few weeks or months of my comments you will find that basic often repeated.  There is absolutely a place and time for faith and belief.

        2. oceansnsunsets profile image85
          oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Faith exercised genuinely, is often due to facts that can be known, or truths.  They hopefully go hand in hand for people more often than not.

      2. profile image0
        Rad Manposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Sounds like something someone would tell someone to keep them from thinking. Why would God not want one to think?

        1. Cgenaea profile image61
          Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Because he knows you can't do it his way on your own. But he will not stop you from doing your thinking for yourself if you like.

          1. profile image0
            Rad Manposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Is it a design flaw? Sorry, but if you could step back and look at what you are saying subjectively you'd  understand that you have been dubbed. It's not something a all knowing perfect God would say, but it is something someone trying to manipulate you would say.

        2. oceansnsunsets profile image85
          oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          The Bible encourages people to think and exercise their minds.  Even in one of the commands about loving God, it specifically includes, "With all your mind."  Thinking.....

    6. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

      Children trust their parents. If mom and dad says let's go, the kids hop in the car. And they do not instruct on how to drive or which road to take. They follow.

      1. profile image0
        Rad Manposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        That's true for most when they are young, but when they mature they should ask question. Do you still obey your parents without question?

        1. Cgenaea profile image61
          Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Hello... the scripture left no room for growing nor maturing. 
          ...said as little children...

          1. A Thousand Words profile image74
            A Thousand Wordsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me."

            Corinthians somewhere.

            1. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Uh...weren't we speaking on coming to God as a trusting child? I was speaking of the one scripture and IT making no room for the suggested maturity
              Let me know when you're going to make sharp turns like that.

          2. profile image0
            Rad Manposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            That's because the scripture was written by people attempting to manipulate the tribe. You were not the target of the deception. Remember the end was supposed to come before the end of Jesus's generation.

            1. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              I am so glad that you no longer have an issue with vocalizing where your faith lies. That's growth.

            2. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              I said he said, "It is fin" on the cross.'not only that, many saw him alive again. So they saw the end and the new beginning. A two-fer. smile

              1. profile image0
                Rad Manposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Everything did not end as scripture describes. We are still here.

                1. Cgenaea profile image61
                  Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  "Everything" in the mind of Jesus? I'd say the kingdom of heaven, which most certainly includes the will of God. In that case, we are here, but we have been dramatically changed by the gift he willingly bestowed. So we are NOT here as we were; doomed to death because of sin. The old way died on the cross with Jesus. Hmmm... I like this line of thought. smile
                  A hub sprung to life. Fruition may take a min...

                  1. profile image0
                    Rad Manposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    The Muslims beg to differ.

                    1. Cgenaea profile image61
                      Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                      And so do you. Are you Muslim?

          3. profile image0
            Emile Rposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            It's comments like this one where i cringe. And, yet, the religious consider it a great point. I know people (who had formerly conducted themselves in, what i perceived to be, an intelligent manner) who fall at the foot of some religious sect's idea of the cross then chastise others for not doing the same through comments such as this. On some level, i attempt to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they don't mean what it appears they mean but, I have to tell you. From every angle I can find you are insisting everyone forego reasonable thought and follow suit by regurgitating the conclusions someone else came to through selectively cobbling passages together to arrive at some conclusion which raises them above all others who refused to follow suit. It lacks appeal and flies in the face of any perception of enlightenment. Although, I'm sure, convincing people it makes sense can be quite profitable.

            1. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Good morning. smile
              I am sure that you will somehow get over the misery cobbled out for you once some things come to realization. Let the first be, I was speaking to someone else concerning a very specific issue. Hopefully my thought process was more successfully relayed to the person who the message was actually for; and that they did not fall off of THEIR throne for their LACK of understanding my point of THAT matter. Didn't say, "when you grow up keep the immaturity."  Said AS. not actually. Are you ok now or should i get the paramedics???
              The scripture "come as little children" was not speaking about the possible growing and maturing that one does over the course of a lifespan.  ...says, come as little children... get it???
              For further clarification,  the scripture quoted was not quoted verbatim.
              The idea in my mind that was being conveyed was that children are trusting; eager; expectant; innocent; meek; and usually in no wise, skeptical.

              1. profile image0
                Emile Rposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                I love how insulting capitalization can make what might otherwise be a non insulting comment. But, if it made you feel better... smile ps. Don't dial 911. Prank phone calls sometimes incur heavy penalties.

                Either way. None of us are children. Open hearts and open minds is probably the extent of the meaning. However, even children recognize bull when they see it.

                1. Cgenaea profile image61
                  Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  So there are some things we must come to an understanding about. First things first; are you bothered by the magnitude of a capital letter??? Secondly,  before receiving the lot of comments this morning,  I realized that my previous post to you should be edited for clarification. Not sure it was added before or after your response. Open hearts and minds as the jist of what Jesus was saying does not seem to fully grasp the idea. It takes children a long time to catch on to "bull" so if you come as they do with the description I came up with before, you have no time for skepticism. You're too busy grabbing the sweet surprises you came for rather than incorporating the skeptical mindset of really SMART adults at the onset of the meeting.
                  God knows BS too.

            2. PhoenixV profile image63
              PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Good Morning. I find that the truth often differs from what is "appealing".

              1. profile image0
                Emile Rposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Really? I think those in search of truth react positively when presented with it. smile

                1. PhoenixV profile image63
                  PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Truth is something witnessed.

                  1. profile image0
                    Emile Rposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Hmm. Maybe on some levels I agree. Explain how you think it is witnessed to determine if we actually could agree. smile

                  2. profile image0
                    Rad Manposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    I've witnessed all kinds of illusions.

                    1. PhoenixV profile image63
                      PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                      They have these things called: Truth Generating Machines aka garage door openers.  They operate on frequency. In between two frequencies is an infinite amount of integral frequencies. Just to keep up with all that truth, one would have to be infinite. How much more to have the complete truth?

                2. profile image0
                  Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  To be fair, not always. Especially when said truth shatters the lie they have carefully and painstakingly built for themselves

                  1. PhoenixV profile image63
                    PhoenixVposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Is a certain truth the same 2,000 years * from now at a different place still truth* ?  How do you know?

                  2. profile image0
                    Emile Rposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    In that case, would they truly be searching for truth....or simply hoping to bolster the lie?

                    1. profile image0
                      Deepes Mindposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                      A little of both

                  3. oceansnsunsets profile image85
                    oceansnsunsetsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Well, she said in search of truth.... I think not many are really in search of it, as they don't want or can't handle it when it comes up against a chosen worldview that may  not fit.  The facts of matters, logic and reason sometimes have to take a back seat and people would rather think the other person is full of bad arguments and put them down than carefully rebut them.

                    So many of these forums are about truth and how that lines up with our chosen worldviews.  What people do when faced with a worldview that clashes with their own, they don't take it well, or don't like it.  What gets me the most, is that if the worldview has ideas that has an error, people still won't abandon it.  They do a number of other things as we see.  To me, it is kind of heart breaking, even if the people have been snappy and rude to others when the clash happens.  It is like it isn't really about the truth and reason for many.  I was agreeing with your comment initially, and still kind of do, except for the part where I remembered she said, "in search of truth..."

                    People really in search of truth are happy to find it, though sometimes the truth is hard to handle.  Like the person that has a cancer, is happy/devastated for the realization.....  To avoid it and lash out at the doctor for the "bad news, reality of truth" he shared, helps no one.  Still, "happy" to know it... Some would just rather go to their deaths never knowing or having to accept truths and facts and dealing with the real problems.

              2. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Yep!!! wink and I am positive that some of us Christians have also figured out what works "best" for the masses. Appeal... but it's just not that important for me. I really don't think Jesus set out for the sake of appeal and likability to "goad" one into salvation. Truth. Not really all that appealing.
                Good morning, back! smile

              3. jonnycomelately profile image80
                jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Yet it cannot be said that anything which is appealing is bound to lack truth.  smile

        2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
          MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          I hate discussing specific Bible verses, but most Bible scholars really do agree that really doesn't have anything to do with obedience or intelligence or knowledge. It wasn't literal either. I hate screaming context, but it really does matter here.

          Jesus was blessing children and it was argued by his disciples that he should stop because they didn't have any problems to be "blessed away." He was basically saying that all men should come to him like the children. With love, without ambitions and without pride or prejudice. Meekly and unpretentious. Without blemish.

          This is actually one of the least argued verses in the Bible... Pretty much every scholar says the same thing...

          ...and yet....

          1. wilderness profile image97
            wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            As many times as I've heard that verse/phrase, never have I heard that explanation.  Always that we should have the unthinking, unreasoned total faith and believe in God.

            Most interesting, and it fits with other concepts such as we have a brain, so use it.

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
              MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              It's kind of ironic... Jesus was, at that point, considered to be primarily a teacher and a healer. One of the reasons that the disciples were turning the children away was that they couldn't be taught yet and had no illness. They saw no point and thought the parents were wasting his time. Jesus wasn't TRYING to teach them, he was simply blessing them. He was embracing them physically and then bestowing his love. His words were spoken as a rebuke to the disciples that were trying to interfere with that.

              It's actually a very beautiful verse that's being degraded. It really is a case of really missing the point.

    7. profile image29
      Damian Halsterposted 5 years ago

      Hopefully, not smile

    8. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

      ...argue over anything... no way could "trusting" be an acceptable description. smile

    9. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

      An off thought: were there some Bush-es or Obamas or Carsons in the audience?
      And another: it very well could have been metaphor for both "ends" or either.
      And just one more: he could have meant the generation of believers he started. But there may a light here. Since I am convinced that there is God and he sent these words; I know that this word of scripture does not lie. So, as MY bar, I search the SCRIPTURES to confirm one of my three options (of which, may many more arise) but it will be revealed. Of course, not to YOUR liking.  But you won't discuss your faith with me. Im exposed. smile

      1. wilderness profile image97
        wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        You search the scriptures, yes...but then change them to mean what you want them to.  You don't take them as literal truth; nearly everything there has to be twisted and spun just a little.

        If you're going to do that anyway, why not just write words on paper and say God told you what to write?  Why bother with the bound version of His word if it all requires "interpretation" (changing and spinning) before being what He actually meant?

    10. A Thousand Words profile image74
      A Thousand Wordsposted 5 years ago

      I can't keep up with this forum.

    11. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

      Simple. I think that there is much more that I must learn. The bound version is where it's at. I am not asking you to feel the same; I'm just letting you know my position.
      You mad???

      1. wilderness profile image97
        wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Sometimes I think I am mad.  But seldom angry; it doesn't pay to become angry.

        We all have to learn.  Still, it seems that if the bound version is incorrect, and needs "interpretation" to be factual and true, then it isn't worth much.  Much better to just let God implant the knowledge he wanted in the bible directly into the brain.  No muss, no fuss, never an error.

        1. Cgenaea profile image61
          Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Again you are minding God's affairs.  No one ever said that the bound version is incorrect. But it does need interpretation. The holy spirit is the thing that helps us there. For even if our interpretation errs; it will not lead to sin.
          The bible has instruction for all types. Which is probably why we see what on the surface seems to appear concontradictory. Just a maybe, but I think it's worth looking into. The bible speaks to all God's children from the least to the greatest. I am different from Phoenix and Beth and Sir Dent but we all get what we need from God often right from the bible. It is evidence; but not your kind.
          How many times have you been fascinated by riddles? How many poems have you gleefully interpreted? How many clues have you noticed watching Monk? How many times have you reached the same diagnosis with House? Say you HATE interpretation??? Oh, just for one thing; I see... And God does too.

          1. wilderness profile image97
            wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Make up your mind.  If the words do not mean what they say then it is incorrect.  If they do then it needs no interpretation.

            Poems are not interpreted; they are felt, with the purpose being to awaken an emotional response in the reader.  If that is the purpose of the bible, to stir the emotions without providing facts, then it is worthless.  Poems are not reality, they do not reflect reality and if that applies to scripture as well then it is of no real value.

            Along those lines, the bible does not speak at all, except for what the words say.  Phoenix and Beth and Cgenaea all provide their own meaning for the words; the "speaking" is done inside them, by their own mind.  Nothing from the bible but a starting push.

            Which of course is why there is so much discord, so much disbelief, so much anger and murder and violence in His name.  Everyone "reads" and "hears" whatever it is they wish to read or hear.  Not what is there.

            1. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Do people who are talking directly to you with eyes and ears open ever misunderstand or twist the meaning of what you just said to them minutes or seconds ago???

              1. wilderness profile image97
                wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Oh sure.  Whereupon additional conversation is necessary to promote communication/understanding.

                Unfortunately the bible cannot do that and the only "conversation" possible is within the reader.  Which is, again, why the book "says" different things to different people.  Because it is saying nothing at all - those different people are saying it to themselves.  And each one has something different to say.

                1. Cgenaea profile image61
                  Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Oh sure.  Whereupon additional conversation is necessary to promote communication/understanding.

                  Ha-ha!!! The gist of the kingdom of heaven; the will of God and the NECESSARY steps in building a relationship with the author and finisher of FAITH, you may surely come to understand.  wink
                  To "blame" the author or speaker for your misunderstanding of messages relayed is somewhat juvenile. Don't you think???
                  "Well I just didn't understand you Wilderness so you must not be saying a darn thing or even worse you just may be lying" is unfair,  yes??? One who simply does not catch your flow should ask questions about what you meant. Right? But they should ask someone who knows what you meant. With God, there are 66 er...72 books to ask; and then God himself. The books containing the words of Jesus are much clearer as he gives a complete picture of the mind and spirit of God. But then there is a decision to make. Yea...or nay...

                  1. wilderness profile image97
                    wildernessposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    No, I don't find it juvenile; I find it a reasonable and expected thing when writer and reader are separated by half a world and 2,000 years. 

                    On the other hand, if the writer was God, and He was writing to show me His love and the way to heaven, the He did a pi$$ poor job of it.  There lies the dichotomy; there is none if we assume the writers were human, with human faults, frailty's, and penchant for lying to make a point. 

                    Have you ever considered that if God wrote the bible (through human hands or however you wish) then He wrote it for the people then?  That He is quite capable of changing every bible on earth to keep up with changing culture and word meanings?  That He could (and should) have overseen every translation to every language, so that His word is clear and understandable?

                    1. Cgenaea profile image61
                      Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                      The words that are most important are clear and understandable to all who seek.
                      The extra is what's biblically called meat. It's for the seasoned. No need in trying to understand 2x2 if 2+2 is foggy. wink get it???
                      The Lord handles his business his way. He knows best. He did not consult with me about what should or should not be included in the long letter to HIS children.
                      The bible says he knows each and every one. He knows how to convey to them. "My sheep know my voice." He was right again.
                      I think that you believe I make up my answers because you don't really know the bible. My words ooze scripture with every other line or so. I make up nothing. When I feel my interpretation is warranted I give it and I make clear that what I say is opinion. However that too is frowned upon smile
                      You want to talk bible;  I'm your girl.
                      We can do it all night. wink

    12. jonnycomelately profile image80
      jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years ago

      Oh, come on Cgenaea, you make up all your answers to whoever addresses you, in such a way as to show that you and your interpretation/understanding are authentic and in touch with you god.
      There is so little to argue about because you set yourself up (with a little bit of help from above) to be unassailable by any normal standard of debate.
      A little bit like Puella, don't you think?  wink

      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Well no. Puella was evil if I'm not mistaking. The unassailable part is from above. When God is for you; who may stand against??? wink
        Make-up answers??? Just because you do not understand the flow, is no reason to now blame the speaker. What it is may be a personal faith issue wink yours is over there... mine? Right here.

        1. jonnycomelately profile image80
          jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          You prove my point so well.

          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            And you, mine. wink

        2. JMcFarland profile image83
          JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          puella was evil?  By who's standards and what authority?  Puella was a believer - just like you claim to be.

          You know what I find interesting about you?  Whenever conversation breaks down, whether it's between you and me, or you and rad, or you and Johnny - or even if it breaks down when you're communicating with another BELIEVER - You blame them.  You blame the atheists for not having the intelligence and comprehension to understand things of the spirit.  You blame the believers for interpreting the scripture that you felt free to interpret in your own way differently.  You never seem to think that the blame rests with you.

          If I'm trying to have a conversation, and it's going well - except for ONE person - fine.  It may be a problem with them.  When I'm trying to have a conversation, and I have a problem communicating with EVERYONE, then no - it's a problem with ME.  Not everyone else.

          Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe it's not the message - it's the messenger?  That maybe your style/approach is so off-putting that more people than not just try to ignore you whenever possible and only respond to a fraction of what you say?  Not because you've "won" but because you're just so difficult to communicate with because you're not willing to see any further than the tip of your own interpretational nose.

          1. profile image0
            Rad Manposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Bingo. We have a winner.

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
              MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Damn! I was two blots away from a coverall.

            2. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              You got another THINK comin'. smile

          2. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            I have no problem with anyone. The problem may be my approach.  But hey, there is no way to blow a quiet trumpet. smile
            The bible resounds loudly.  When you know it and you speak what it says, you "lose" friends. Didn't you study the bible a long time? You know. The protection of CERTAIN freedoms make it difficult to relate well to scripture.  It's a mirror Ma'am...
            My being unpopular with the "group" is EXACTLY what the bible promised me. smile
            I know it hurts to be "hit" with scripture sometimes.  But my remedy was relinquishment. The giving over of my brain was necessary.  Yes Lord, I believe what you say. And yes Lord, I know that your word says different.  And no, Lord, I AINT ready to change my actions. But Yes Lord, I know what the bible says about this.........
            Help me.
            And then I heard.  My grace is sufficient. smile he who is forgiven much... you know...
            You are not my favorite either smile
            Emile is!!!

            1. JMcFarland profile image83
              JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              No, you're not understanding my point.

              In fact, you missed it completely.

              But I expected as much.

              It has nothing to do with the Bible - people teach and study the bible in all different ways.  It's the way that you present it.  You can blow a trumpet any way you want - but sometimes it's music - and sometimes it's just a bunch of loud noise with no meaning.  You're so interested in saying what you want to say and proving yourself "right" in YOUR interpretation (not gods, YOURS) that you're not listening to the sound you're emitting. 

              No one is hating you or persecuting you.  They're not angry at your message or your "bible" language.  They dislike the way you present it.

              I'm personally glad I'm not your favorite.  As I've said before, I want to be as unlike you as possible.  In fact, it's a compliment.  So thank you again.

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                I believe what you mean is that I do not ball up into a corner nor cry "uncle" when presented with the phoney crap about the flaw of the bible. No, I wont say "well based upon your evidence you may have a point there. The bible could be just a bunch of made up stories slapped in a book and manipulated to keep control over a sect." The surety of my position is what is maddening.  My bent on unbending is infuriating to the masses; people just wanna do what they do without all the strain of a sin label and nobody understands that more than I. But I heard, "my grace is sufficient" smile . That statement changed my thoughts. You say come boldly? Obtain what? Though red, white as what??? For even me??? He walked me through it for years!!!
                Nobody can stop me now Jules! smile it aint hard. I had to go sit at his feet with the stains. And you know what? He sent me away with covered stains. His grace is sufficient.  This man, when I WOULD go to church. WAAAAAAYYYY back; preached a sermon about his strength being made perfect in my weakness. He said, while you are FOCUSED on that issue, God is moving in on another bigger issue. That stuck and proved to be true. You remember I told you about my dream? It was imprinted. It is evident.
                It is my rigidity that is off putting but it must be dealt with.  Just like a treeeeeee, planted by the waaaaaater, (sing with me) iiiiii shall...
                Trust me. It seems arrogant, I know. But it aint. When iiiiiii brag J, it is ABOUT GOD.

                1. JMcFarland profile image83
                  JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  no....you do NOT know what I mean, and you're completely illustrating that every time you respond.  You can guess about my meaning all you want, just like you do about everything else - but that doesn't make you correct in your assessment.

                  No one is expecting you to curl up and cry in a corner, but we don't expect arrogance in the face of ignorance either - and that's the only thing you seem to be good at presenting.

                  You do not get to use any nicknames for me.  I am not Jules or J or Julie even.  We're not friends.  You may call me JMcFarland - that's all you know me as, and that's all you'll ever know.

                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Gee willickers. Now even the way I say JMcFarland is under attack... smile
                    I can tell that every thing I say now is examined under the evil eye lamp with pouting glasses. This is usually the time one slams the receiver down. But no phone. I am surprised that I was not shooed however. Please, have it your way.
                    Attention!  Attention!  Hear ye this!!! JMcFarland, with her official papers on biblical study is much much much much much smarter than some silly little ignorant bumpkin with absolutely NO bible degree and that bumpkin's name is cgenaea. Oh! And cgenaea should shut her over confident ignorant mouth and learn something from JMcFarland about the biblical tricksters who put the phoney bible together in some dark alley to dupe her stupid ass into belief in some God that don't even exist. Which is SOMETHING she would KNOW if she went to BIBLE COLLEGE!!! wink smile wink smile lol lmaorotfl
                    Sorry, I tried to say that with a straight face. How'd I do???

                    1. JMcFarland profile image83
                      JMcFarlandposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                      Lol... You can't  even pay attention to what was actually said, can you?   You have to put your own spin and interpretation on what even other people say in order for you to hear it.

                      Your attempts to mock me do nothing but make YOU look worse.   They do nothing to me.  So keep on going.  Dig yourself into a deeper hole.  It's all good.

                      I don't recall jesus ruining around mocking the people he tried to Minister to.  He had compassion and love and kindness.  The only people he mocked were the holier than thou religious folks.  You see  ridicule as love.  Why don't you worry less about propping yourself up and focus more on the example that jesus set for you,  if you are indeed such a shining example of him?

            2. jonnycomelately profile image80
              jonnycomelatelyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Hahaha - you "gave over your brain," alright.  Maybe the main reason I stay talking with you is the little comedy that comes through now and then.  But there is a serious side to your manner, Cgenaea, and I don't suppose there is anyone here qualified to make a diagnosis.   neutral

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                I am actually. And I know. But I wont tell smile
                However, I have absolutely no qualms about anyone barring my conversation from them. I am not that sensitive. I understand. Serious I am. But I like to say it with funny smile laughing is my favorite hobby. Thats why all the smiles. Thanks for picking up on that.

            3. getitrite profile image76
              getitriteposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Since there is no evidence of ANY Gods whatsoever, let alone, the Christian God, you have blindly given your mind to the backward thinking of long dead ignoramuses.  In fact YOU are smarter than these ancient savages who wrote this childish nonsense, therefore you have launched an attack against your own intellect.  Some people are too frightened to assert their own(real) thoughts, and simply take their place in the passenger seat, while allowing fear to drive them and their lives into delusion. FROZEN!

              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Please tell me you are not reading these comments again...
                The anger is off putting. wink

                1. getitrite profile image76
                  getitriteposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                                                           
                  http://www.quickmeme.com/img/df/df8a41884ff0e29e084eb3df9e6c58816744479623c6f08fa8f4589b781f4560.jpg

                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Nice selfie! The colors are amazing. No chess thanks. You messed up the board last time.

    13. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

      Oh! And when my mans said Puella. I thought Cruella. smile I don't know Puella.

    14. schoolgirlforreal profile image83
      schoolgirlforrealposted 5 years ago

      Yes, and I feel protected by God, too... and He uses others to help us too...there is nothing to fear!

      IITim1:7
      For the Lord hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. smile big_smile

    15. profile image0
      SirDentposted 5 years ago

      Luk_10:33  But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

    16. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 5 years ago

      As I recall Jesus kind of dug into the smart scribes too. They were trying to correct his understanding right?

      1. profile image0
        Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Nope.  They were trying to maintain control of their people by claiming the only truth was the one they taught as true...and more importantly, they arrogantly held everyone-but themselves-to impossible standards of godliness.  Jesus showed them-over and over and over again-that HIS people were more important than what his people SAID his rules were.

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
          MelissaBarrettposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Why are you guys even trying? She doesn't want discussion, she wants to argue. Haven't you guys got that yet? You are being used by her to fulfill her needs. If you are fine being used as emotional self-gratification material, that's cool I guess. Just point it out though.

        2. Cgenaea profile image61
          Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          He corrected them then as they were attempting to bind the people with extra law without forgiveness and SELF check?

          1. profile image0
            Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Yes.  That's what I said.  With more words, but the same essence.  I think you generally appear to be more like them than like him.

            1. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Well Jesus did said something about remembering and DOING what HE commanded. He had a list. And he expected remembering and doing. Hmmmm... people seem to think that Jesus was a follower. He went along... no, that's wrong. He drew a line... he despised arrogance and knowledge over faith; hypocrisy above mercy; wise writers and teachers who added or took away from true adherence to the love intertwined into the law. Did he ever meetan nonbeliever while he was here? If so, how did he interact with them?

              1. profile image0
                Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Your spin is so slick!  Man, Genaea, you seriously missed your calling.  You should have been a White House Press Secretary.  You really are THAT good.

                1. Cgenaea profile image61
                  Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  You cannot think of a time when Jesus met with a nonbeliever? Or you don't know how he responded to them? Or you don't wanna say???

                  1. profile image0
                    Motown2Chitownposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    I'm sure Jesus encountered nonbelievers.  Off the top of my head, I don't have an instance prepared for discussion.  But every documented interaction with Jesus left the person feeling loved, respected, and valuable-many for the first time in their lives.  So far, I've never seen anyone come away from an interaction with you feeling that way-yet you claim to be doing just what Jesus did.

                    And what difference does it make whether someone is or isn't a believer?  You are pretty consistent about treating us all the same way, regardless of our professed faith.

                    And-it changes nothing.  You can spin-and you are WAY good at it.  That's how you have yourself so convinced that you are always blameless and your behavior is always above reproach.

                    1. Cgenaea profile image61
                      Cgenaeaposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                      One can blame and reproach all he wants. I have yet to be proven a liar.
                      I wonder how the pharisee moneychangers felt running out of that temple...