Sir Dent, Phoenix, sounds as if we all agree to me. Many different scriptures. It all works together. And the old was a precursor to the new.
Maybe they had time even being immortal. Night/day denotes time passage. But heaven will ALWAYS be lit.
Many words of scripture give warning to them that add or take away from scripture. It is not a condoned practice. This becomes part of causing a brother to sin. "God is ok with sexual sin because he made me to have these desires." That is one I hear often. Or the famous, "God wants you to pay his bills (at the church) and he will pay yours" is another that I have heard many times. The list goes on and on.
Adding and taking away from the words of God also has stiff consequences.
Out if curiosity, given this statement, how do you justify your adherence to the Protestant bible-66 books. The originally codified and canonized Christian bible contained the Apocrypha-the Roman Catholic Bible still does-72 books total. Which one do you think is God's official count?
Good question. I do not adhere to lamb slaughter or ho stoning if that's what you mean. That stuff came before what we adhere to now (the commands of Jesus). The 66 books that I have are precious to me. Another's 72 may have the same effect on him. However, I believe firmly that the 66 I have are fully sufficient.
My favorite book is the Song of Solomon. What do you think about it?
Hot OT biz... I think my favorite is Romans. But all NT books are kinda special. Why Solomon?
Because it contains this verse:
"My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him." - Song of Solomon, 5:4
Fun Fact: In the King James Version of the Bible, words that weren't in the original language are added in italics. <3
I am curious as to why you like that particular verse, because of the translation?
Because it's about fisting~!
Giggity giggity giggity goo!
SOS is of particular interest to me because I have my own personal interpretation, which is probably a no no.
Think that's bad? Look at 4:16...
"Awake, O north wind; and come, thou south; blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits."
If you can read that and your face doesn't turn red, you're reading it wrong.
Like I said I have my own interpretation. There are many interpretations. None of SOS makes me blush.
I like Ezekiel 23:20
"There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horse"
Question for you, If you have your interpretation (or understanding) of SOS and are discussing it with another believer who also has an uunderstanding (or interpretation)of that book, do you tell them they are wrong and that they are not a real Christian?
Good for you. You stand alone in your faith and keep it personal. Unfortunately, not all of us do that. There are some that even as they claim their beliefs as their own will also tell others their belief is incorrect and they are hellbound. Iam glad to hear aand know that you are not one of those kinds
I have a personal interpretation of SOS, so I am unsure how you can extrapolate any more than that out of what I said. But no, I am not ashamed of Jesus or the Word of God. I know "some kinds" are though.
Well I wasn't trying to extrapolate anything specific out of your statement as it relates to you directly. I was just curious about how you handle your faith in am effort to understand you better. I find that it helps in discussions
That was you intent was it?
Would you like to know my personal interpretation of SOS?
Sure. I am always interested I seeing how other Christians view the bible. Makes for interesting discussion as lo g as one doesn't make it a point of telling the other that their belief in the bible is wrong. There is only one who is qualified to do that
I think SOS is about bees. Solomon was a beekeeper and back in those days in royal courts such as Solomon they loved riddles.
Bees? Okay.. I will have to look over it again and see if I can see what you see. I member looked at it like that
For instance if you were following the conversation Zelkiiro posted : My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him.
The Masoretic Text translates it as My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my heart was moved for him.
The difference is heart and intestines. but the word normally is meant inner parts, and more normally as intestines.
I would interpret that as someone sticking their hand in a "skep" or a beehive. Once their hand is in a bee stings them. When a bee stings it not only injects venom its stinger is also left in the victim and a muscle continues pumping etc the bee dies because of the loss of its abdomen etc
I have to scratch my head where you got the idea that it's referring to a beehive. But at the very least honey is still involved...
You have to (if one considers it all) take SOS in its entirety, and considering it is a hidden riddle.
What feeds among the flowers?
I know what feeds on "flowers". In the "garden." While "opening the door" and "blowing out the spices."
Let me ask you two questions. 1. Did Jesus ever follow behind and/or walk with one who blatantly stated no belief in God? 2. Would he ever call one who spoke scripture ungodly because the hearer was offended by that scripture spoken?
Sometimes I have difficulty trying to understand what someone is asking exactly. I guess I am getting old.
The pharisees knew and spoke scripture and Jesus didnt seem to like them much. Sometimes if they did not welcome Jesus in a town, He would dust His feet of them.
That's it. Not.. "oh I understand your distaste for my words. Walk with me so I can love you into loving God."
Dusted and out! Two cannot walk together unless they agree. Well it will be lots of fighting.
Well don't beat up on the 10-20 or so, unbelievers too much. You have to have compassion on them sometimes.
Well sure compassion is warranted often. But not during a "there aint no God you delusional so and so with your dumb self" rant. Some things cannot be entertained
Also, for me the bible is true. The suggestion that it is tainted could very well lead to useless. I cannot concede to a tainted bible.
But it just does not seem like a fair fight, you and only 10-20 of them.
Those 10-20 come for all of us. The difference at times is our response to them.
Bring me 100. I have no fear of being trampled. It is easy to see a horrible line of biblical thought. To deny any of it leaves one vulnerable. I stand assured that the biblical messages of God are sound. I've spent many years not only knowing it but living it. I know that it has not failed me once. To hear a defaming or concessions by the "spiritual" I'm taken aback. I stand assured that biblical text is unmatched in pointing the way to live this life. Some do not like that position. I know that if I say "uncle" I will be instantly acceptable. But at what cost???
Satan spoke scripture to him while he was tempting him in the desert. How did he handle him?
Excuse me for not clarifying. The scripture of the NT was and pretty much is all that I speak on. The enemy was resisted by Jesus with the truth of the matter
The enemy spoke scripture...that wasn't truth?
In a serious effort to be helpful and hopefully make communication easier for you...this statement here is causing part of your "disconnect" with other forum participants. When YOU do something-it's because you are led by the spirit, you say. So...you quote scripture and you are only speaking truth. Someone speaks something else from scripture that possibly contradicts you or they interpret something differently and THEY cannot possibly be correct. Spouting scripture to manipulate and persuade is exactly what Satan did to Jesus. Why was it wrong when he did it, but not when God's people do it?
You cannot know the answer. Unless you rewrite the bible to satisfy you own presuptions.
The hand was just BY the door not all up in it. Or is that not what you see?
He put IN his hand by the door. Which means he definitely inserted his hand somewhere. And there's another opening by that door, if you catch my drift.
It answers the question quite clearly. You're perfectly okay with removing from Scripture what YOU don't find perfectly relevant or sufficient. How come you don't like when others do it?
I don't get it... I don't change what I have. If other information was added or not taken away from other books, I feel no qualm arising about it. So maybe I am not fluent in apocrypha, but I do know the rest of it is that ok? I mean, is there some groundbreaking information that I am missing? If so, is there something you want to share???
Well, I'm just curious as to how you justify only adhering to the 66 books, when the whole bible contains 72. It doesn't concern you that the bible you follow isn't the same as that of the early church? How do you know which one is right? I mean, there were no Protestants for over 1500 years after Christ...so you aren't a little worried that the bible that was good enough for Christians for over 15 centuries was hacked before you got to it?
Yes! Especially if I'll be damned without the info. What have I missed? Fyi...again all 66 books are not for my instruction or adherence but fMi... so I am willing to assert that the missing 6 books are probably not for my instruction. Will you tell me different?
I'm just pointing out that your words are inconsistent. You claim that the consequences of adding to or taking from scripture are dire, but are unaware that the 66 books to which you refer aren't the complete scripture....and not according to me, but according to those men, who, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, made the bible with 72 books....until the Protestant reformers decided they didn't want them all in there.
What damns you? The fact that you live, learn, and study from a Protestant bible? Your salvation is assured by JESUS-the WORD of God-not by the bible. While inspired by God, what's in there is just words. But I might make the very gentle suggestion that if you're going to defend the bible as vehemently as you do, you would be well served to learn more about it.
Yes!!!!!!! Ab-so-lute-ly NOTHIN'!!! you feel that inconsistency describes my argument? But I am not misleading about what I have. And OBVIOUSLY there is nothing that you can tell me about it that would send my soul to hell in its absence. So, biblically, I am not missing out. And I'm fine with that.
If you don't believe you will go to hell for following an abbreviated bible, why tell others about the dire consequences of adding to/subtracting from scripture? What dire consequences are you facing for following your bible while someone else follows theirs? Which of you has the "right" one?
Now THAT is STRICTLY God's business. He gave mine to me.
Maybe it should STAY God's business. If he gave it to you, then it has value FOR YOU.
Aaaaawwwww now you are trying to hush it???
I can handle that.
Not at all. I'm just saying that before you give someone directions, make sure you've driven the route yourself.
Im gonna take the efficiency route. And I will arrive on time and in my best outfit. Anyone not willing to ride can just wait on the shuttle. I wont mind.
Some will not like what I have to say, but here it is:
I believe the entire concept is a crock of steaming nitrogenous waste material, conceived to keep people afraid and under control of religious powers.
Doomsday predictions have come and gone in repetitive cycles for thousands of years; obviously, they were all wrong, as both we and the planet are still here.
Therefore, it is an event that probably won't happen, certainly not in our lifetimes, and in any case, the time and manner is not anything we can know. It will happen when and if it happens, and there's nothing that can be done about it, and certainly nothing to be gained by fretting, stewing, and worrying over it.
Quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of seeing this tired old topic get raised time and time again. I just roll my eyes and say, "Oh, brother! There they go again!"
What is it that keeps one from just rolling their eyes and walking away??? I am so curious about it.
Freedom of speech. You know, that same thing that keeps you here arguing over history that you know very little about.
Bible is my subject. History is yours.
On another note...I do not care HOW FREE my speech is and how interesting the topic for the day, I will NOT go to no tooth fairy debate. Ya know??? I do not believe she exists. And IF I were unsure, I would not go to the debate looking for a confirmation of NO... some things are beyond explanation. The bible oftentimes. And nonbelievers who read and quote from the bible everyday.
You have had this explained to you at least a dozen times by a dozen different people, which means you don't give a damn what they say, you don't WANT to know. So stop asking the same question when all you do is ignore the answer and then brag about how humble and smart you are
Actually, they are both subjects JMcFarland appears to excel.
It's not a big deal to admit meeting someone who has a far better grasp of the bible and history than most of us here, especially you. You're should listen to JMcFarland rather than argue, you just might learn something.
Of course, believers steer clear of everything they don't accept to believe on blind faith, that's the hypocrisy of it all.
I understand your statement; I really do. But J McFarland is ungodly. As such, she may teach me nothing about the kingdom of God. The bible says so. Ask her. And then ask her what the bible says about those who turn away once having known...
There is quite a difference between being godless and being ungodly. One may not believe in Jesus as the son of God and often still behave more like him than those whose every other word is his name. That's the case with Julie. She may no longer be a practicing or believing Christian, but she is still kind, generous, loving, accepting, forgiving, and charitable-some of those features are sorely lacking in modern Christians.
I hear you but the bible says NO UNGODLY COUNSEL. now...will she instruct me in the ways of my Lord? Uh... I'll give you a second to think on that as I ask; will she show me how to be a better servant of God? See, I need someone whose every other word is his name. to learn from. Anymore suggestions?
My only suggestion would be to refrain from judging others. According to the bible as it was given to YOU. Others read the one that says to love others-not say judgmental and insulting things about them in a public forum. In case you forgot, Jesus didn't come for the ones who held themselves equal enough with God to judge his people. Her differences make Julie exactly the kind of person from whom you should occasionally receive counsel.
You are biblically wrong, again. Jesus was very insulting to some... that's why they killed him. He was trying to correct their distortions. I only converse. What did I say that was insulting?
Actually, I'm not. Only other Christians have value to you-other people are to simply be dismissed as ungodly? That's insulting. The questions and statements I posted regarding the Catholic/Protestant bible could have been very insulting-but because I try to behave as a decent and nonjudgmental person, I worded them differently, so as not to offend or insult you. And they didn't kill Jesus because he insulted them, but that's interesting.
There are several in the house-all well loved, worn, marked, and battered. That's how they get when one actually reads, studies, and prays from them. And Jesus never insulted anyone. He called his religious leaders to task over their failings, but he never treated an unbeliever with the disdain that you often show to Julie-and to others. That's why so many people love him-and hate a lot of us who bear his name.
You've shown it to all of us on multiple occasions. Sad, because it would be nicer, and far more appropriate to see you show some of the grace, kindness, and mercy that you say God has so often shown you.
Oh well. We're all still growing. Pity God doesn't quarantine us so that we don't ever have to encounter anyone until after we're perfected. Well, those of us who haven't been perfected yet.
You have got to be kidding. I just KNOW it. Your "kindness" has shaken my nape hairs from time to time. And it is so hard to remember which side you represent so keep saying it. I just cannot tell from time to time.
Nope. Not kidding. To date, I've never been unkind to anyone here...maybe less than nice at a given time, but never cruel, insulting, or unkind. I imagine that I'd have been reprimanded if that were the case.
At the end of the day, it matters only to me. The problem you have isn't remembering which side I am on. It's remembering that you think yours is the only one anyone is allowed to support without being ungodly. I know where I stand with God. As long as he and I know, that's all that matters.
I have ended conversations with you in the past because I thought emotions were keeping us from clearly communicating, but I have never insulted you or been unkind to you. Clearly, we've reached the end conversation point once more.
But what is it about me that makes people to SAY THEIR PIECE and then SLAM THE DOOR SHUT??? LOL funniest thing here!!!
I don't mean in any way to silence you. I continue to read through threads. I just know when it's time for me to let someone else have the last word. No slamming doors here. I'm just closing MY mouth. You may continue with your regularly scheduled programming.
Hello Mo. Just curious...are you aware of any verse or instance where Jesus, or for that matter the Bible, makes or encourages any effort to persuade an Atheist? "Unbelievers," as in those who believed in other gods or at least spirits and spirituality yes, but not Atheists, that I recall. Unless it is a very broad, "teach all nations" type reference.
Hey, bBerean. I didn't see this. Sorry about that.
Off the top of my head, I am only aware of Jesus persuading or trying to lead those who already believed in God. That is actually part of the point I'm trying to make. Jesus was not unkind to anyone he encountered in the accounts that we have of his life, however, regardless of their belief. Chances are good that since he lived in the Middle East during the first century among Jews and Pagan Romans that he didn't likely encounter many atheists. Think he'd have revealed his love, mercy, and kindness to them? I think he's have done that before he ever tried to persuade them to change such a fundamental belief.
Here's the issue that I have-not with Scripture, not with Jesus, not with anything but the brash judgment bandied about by people who have no room to judge. Jesus loved first. He met the needs of his people first. Then he spoke to their souls...because of his kindness, they ASKED to hear.
If you constantly pound someone over and over with something they don't want to hear, or cannot hear at this moment, they shut their ears to everything...and eventually forever.
Thanks Mo. I appreciate your perspective. I was just thinking about this, because I believe scripture makes the opposite case...not to proselytize those who reject spirituality. It makes a difference in one's perspective and approach, if you believe scripture indicates they will not be persuaded. You don't know who has actually made that decision, (said in their heart), and who could still be influenced. Discussions are still edifying regarding what the arguments are, albeit for those on the fence they will be stumbling blocks and for those who have made their decisions they are lifelong rationalizations. It certainly helps remove the emotion from the discussion, (at least for me). It lowers my expectations knowing those who have ears to hear, will, while you can still have a nice chat and learn from the rest.
You said a mouthful here (so to speak). For those who have their minds made up, we are not to proselytize, but we also are not to attack and insult nor write off totally. Until one passes away, there is always the chance to change their mind to at least explore. Christ's message and teachings were not simply limited to his words, but also in his actions. His actions won people over more than his words ,though his words carry weight as well. His words carried weight about how we as believers are to treat one another as well as how we treat others. This also makes a difference in our approach to others as well as what portions of the bible we focus on.
Hello Deepes. I believe scripture indicates there are those who will not listen, and there is no chance to reach them as they have already "grieved" the spirit, and said in their heart there is no God. Knowing that they exist is helpful, but only philosophically, because to be applicable you would have to be able to tell with certainty who they are, and I don't think we can know. I suspect many who protest the loudest could be closest to coming around. You never know.
Oh absolutely! The bible does say that there will be those who won't hear. This is why we cannot treat all of them with the same gloves. We are supposed to approach with respect first then separate from those who won't hear. Unfortunately, there are those who treat all with disdain first then wonder why they are treated with disdain in return. Those who approach with respect but are treated with disagreement often abandon the respect in favor of the proselytizing which often makes things worse. There is a difference between leading a horse to water then letting it decide if it is thirsty or not and dragging the horse to water then shoving its head in.
I agree completely. What I've found for myself is that often I get asked questions by unbelievers that allow me to clarify and understand my faith even better. I just can't see my human brothers and sisters as my enemies-at least not the ones who leave me free to believe as I do and do not judge...and they've a right, as human beings, to that same respect from me. If God uses something I say or share to draw a soul to him, I rejoice! If not, I trust that it's not yet his time. But I pray that nothing I say pushes them away from him. I'd rather know that I showed his love to only one than scared away a dozen by only handing out judgment. And thanks for the gentle and respectful approach. It's much appreciated.
Thank you Mo. I only bring it up as I think it is helpful in determining the emotional investment one employs, as well as prioritizing time and effort. It also keeps a healthy perspective that you may stay encouraged in the face of otherwise discouraging circumstances.
+1. It bothers me at times to look at these discussions as an "us vs them" situation. We are all in search of answers. Some of us think we have found all the answers we need, but it still shouldn't halt our search as some may still have a lot to learn from others
Deepes, the us v. them mentality has bothered me since I was a kid. There is just us. You, me, the atheist, agnostic...all searching for love, peace, and truth.
threats are the prerogative of those who know nothing else. Thank you for finally being honest and exposing your position. What does the Bible say about those who presume to speak for God and judge another's soul? It would have been better for them had they not been born. ..
No judgment needed; just eyes. I read what you yourself type.
You want to know something, genaea? If you think you're the example of what it means to be godly, I am grateful that you think I'm nothing like you. That's the best possible compliment and affirmation someone like you could EVER say to me.
Ungodly? Would Godly mean like a God? Do you consider yourself Godly (like a God)?
Well, the serpent did tell Eve that eating the fruit would make her like God, and that nature is supposed to be passed down to all of us...
So wait, if we're all like God, and God wants no other gods before him, then that means suicide really IS the only answer!
The serpent lied. We will never come close in this lifetime. We must make a conscious effort to stay close to God. Opposing suggestion is a daily function. He loves every one of us with all our faults. He only asks for your heart. (And don't start with the bloodstuff; you know what I mean.
How so? It was the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, which is a power that only God possessed until that point. So yeah, Eve did become like God.
And nowhere does the serpent lie. Eating the fruit didn't kill Eve (just like the serpent said) and she became more like God (just like the serpent said). The serpent was merely being crafty with his truths.
Also, fun fact, nowhere in the Bible does it ever say the serpent was influenced by Lucifer at all. In fact, it just starts off by saying the serpent was the wisest of all the animals (guess God didn't get around to the chimpanzee or the dolphin yet) and then it talks to Eve--no Satanic intervention, no demonic overtones, nothing supernatural whatsoever. Except maybe the talking thing, but whatever. It's the Bible. Everything talked.
The serpent deceived in part, by causing these people to doubt what they knew to be true. The serpent suggested the very God they knew and loved and were created by and spent time talking and walking with, was really just trying to do those things for some other reason.
Temptation with the fruit, and the suggestion of doubting what they knew to not be true. It was their ruin, God was the best thing they had going.
JMcFarland may very well be undeniable, undercooked, unhinged, unwavering, unstable, unstoppable, undernourished, whatever. That is entirely irrelevant to the fact that she is far more knowledgeable of the bible, history, the history or the bible and probably a great deal more than you, which is why you could learn a lot.
Besides, we are all ungodly, the universe is ungodly because no gods are shown to exist.
You are wrong. The bible is very clear. And I cannot trust one who has turned their back on God to instruct me in his ways. Isn't that also understandable?
If the Bible is clear, then why do Christians have to torture and mangle it to say what they want it to say?
No, it isn't understandable at all. The amount of knowledge and understanding JMcFarland has in regards to the bible and history does not change just because she is no longer a believer. She is still exactly the same person with the very same brain.
I notice you use that word but have no clue what it means. It is meaningless and only shows you have nothing to say when you use it, and you use it when you know others are right and you are wrong.
Spirit is the essence/personality of God. Now you know too! It leads us in this walk. I am right about that.
God gave a lot of people their versions of the bible. This is why we should not judge what God gave others as being incorrect as most are led by the spirit. It is only for God and God alone
Mo, did you see my question here earlier? http://hubpages.com/forum/post/2523798
One of my friends had a saying that I really like, and I think it's fitting here - regardless of what your beliefs are. "Never walk away from the opportunity to have the important conversations. You never know. The next mind you change could change thousands."
I don't actively attempt to strip people of their faith, nor could I even if I wanted to. I'm here for the conversations and the learning opportunities. But minds are changed in both directions, and you never know who is watching or paying attention. How would Christians feel if they knew that someone who was on the fence about their faith was paying attention and was so turned off from their behavior or their portrayal of the gospel that they refuse to consider the possibility of believing. How would atheists feel if someone who was exploring atheism became more entangled in their beliefs because of the atheists dismissive or mocking attitudes?
That being said, i have realized that its impossible to have meaningful, intelligent conversations with some people, and it's really no longer worth the effort. But I will continue to seek out those opportunities to communicate with those who are willing and able.
I'm going to go drink now.
All I know is you two are going to get poor Julie plastered.
Lol! Hey I need a drink too and since Julie is the one doing it... why not. The bible says we should not get drunk, but she is not bound by the bible since she does not believe...lol
The scripture said that Jesus was hated. And that we who say what he said would be hated as well. Blessed you are, the scriptures say, when men lie on you for the sake of Christ. I've been called harsh, a liar, a script twister, not Christ like, an egomaniac, and a judge. But never am I provided evidence of such acts. Seems just about right to me.
None of us are infallible. We all err. But the keys to truth are found in scripture, not our consensus. One instance that strikes me currently is a Christian who has deemed it unnecessary to teach their children about God so as to not risk them being indoctrinated or brainwashed. It goes against scripture. I must say so right? I was "judge" there too. But to me, the scripture judged it. I just repeated the scripture that tells us to teach our children and became judge??? But one who has made up their mind to go against is infuriated because scripture allows the spirit to bring to remembrance his commands. And some possibly painful conviction. It's more of a "who told you to remind me Genaea you old mean judge. I got my own plans!" I am no judge; but bible parrot. I am not rude but honest. If you catch me slipping please say so. But if there is no slip, step aside; I'm coming through.
You seem to have this false sense that somewhere deep down we know that the Bible is true, but we spend our time fighting it because we don't like it. But, I'm sorry to tell you that that's just not the case.
1. A good portion of the people here were once just as convinced and passionate as you, including myself.
2. Once we realized that the Bible was full of sh*t through study and simple critical thinking, we understood that it was not the word of God, but a book written by men that has caused as much if not more problems than other holy books. Sure, there's some wisdom in there. You can find wisdom anywhere you look. But a lot of us can look at ourselves in the "truth mirror" just fine and very much handle what we see because we learned to see with different eyes. Or we don't like it and are on a path to improve, but we simply don't use the Bible as a legitimate guide as to what we should see.
3. You seem to be just as convinced as most fundies that the only thing you should feel bad about is what you either believe is the holy spirit convicting you of, another Christian you believe has authority is telling you, or the interpretation of the Bible passages you read (believe me, honey, even how you read it and understand is still an interpretation, not whatever absolute truth you've convinced yourself you see.)
4. There are Christians on here who love God/Christ as much as you, but are considerably more tasteful and understand the difference between faith and knowledge. They do not agree with us nonbelievers on everything, and we are able to have discussions while still respecting one another's differences of opinion/belief. You seem to be convinced that you are some warrior to battle on and fight for God, and that because we're holding up a mirror to you that your religion tells you isn't true, you think that means that you're some kind metaphorical martyr. All it really means is that you've closed your mind to voice of the world you're supposed to be sharing your God's love with. You think you are beyond reproach by anyone outside of your religious club.
The thing about points 3 and 4 is that for some people the only reproach that is acceptable is from their own personal spirit. Even with biblical references, some cannot take looking at anything that may show them that they are wrong or barring that will take those scriptures and use them to rationalize how it fits their behavior
Wow!!! May I please ask you what light bulb allowed you to turn away from God? What study you did personally that did not include others' reports that made you say, this is some load of garbage? I BET I know...
I did it all on my own back when I was 13 or so. Many sleepless nights looking at the ceiling trying to understand and unravel all the lies I had been told. Didn't have the internet or youtube back then. Just my mind searching the deepest parts of itself for the truth.
I heard recently that your mind is too incapable of really thinking until you are 25. you 25 yet?
Ok, you "heard" that.....from whom? From an original thinker? What his or her background of study and research. Can you "believe" what you "heard?" Is it just something you "want to" hear and believe?
How does that information which you want to believe stack up against other stuff you are taught?
If you know the my answer to the question before I give it, tell me, please. Maybe you're that random person that's been visiting my thoughts...
To be included in the clique, you MUST be able to be uncertain about scripture. NEVER AN OPTION FOR ME. Here you must be able to say (without wavering ) that the bible is very possibly "unusable" and or incorrect so that people will not recognize how WRONG they are and will hopefully come around with enough "love" and concession. I am not the one... We are to use ALL of the word as a mirror, as reproof. Problem is...some of us cannot stand our own reflection. I am not EXCLUDED but that is not enough for the masses. "TURN OFF THE LIGHTS STUPID GENAEA IM MEEELLLTING!!!" we say without saying. say what you will or may. I have NO desire to join a group that works against my best interest. I'll stay out here. If I stand alone. Like Job, like Noah, and Shadrach 'nem
Little foxes... evil communication... ungodly counsel... any Googlers??? Judge??? No. But denying scripture is fruit that I do not want on my vines.
Thing is CG, you accept what the sciptures literally say without asking yourself how they came about, who compiled them, wht were their motives. You trumpet the meme that they do not self contradict, and refuse to investigatd for yourself.
Nobody is trying to turn you into an atheist here. All I'm saying is that if you are going to throw around bible verses you better make sure you understand what they meant to the author, the original audience, and at least qustion them, ask yourself why you believe them. Some histrical study intotheir origins and comparing one with another cannot hurt you. When you discover the inconsistencies, that the culture of the audience completely overturns your interpretation, that's ok.
If you've ever been to college apply that method of study to the bible, trust me your eyes will be opened.
The truth in this statement is profound, or would be if it is understood. Unfortunately, there are some of our fellow believers that cannot, or will not, accept any advice that might affect their belief even if the Chang is in why a belief is held if not the belief itself
My wife on more than one occasion has suggested we go back to attending a church as she believes the social interaction might be good for the kids. Whilst that may be true, I do not believe I would be happy amoungst a group of people who dare not question the status quo lest they become a pariah or loose their salvation and go to hell. Is there a church movement that takes a pragmatic view of the bible warts and all, one that is happy to question the accuracy of large chunks of it? If there was i'd like to know.
I think Melissa's church, DH! Btw, I don't think I ever told you how much I liked your Hub on the origins of the Devil. I think Cgenaea should read it.
Oh yeah, and I dont know if you remember me saying this, but you could just start your own church. LoL. I'm only half kidding.
There are churches that are UU and accept everyone as well as not spend too much time in the OT. they recognize the importance of it, but its one thing to keep telling people they are poor sinners and need to get right and another to show them a different way by using Christ as the example. Unfortunately, some churches only teach repentance and hell without teaching Christ and how and why it is important to follow those teachings other than to avoid hell
The others are correct. The Unitarian Universalist church tends to be a bit more open to an honest look at the Bible as well as all other holy books and teachings. There's some secular, humanistic, atheistic and agnostic thrown in there too. No dogma, just a desire to learn and for each person to find their own path.
Warning: Its HEAVILY works-based. Volunteerism isn't required, per se, but it's very much encouraged.
That's why it isn't a "real" Christian church
Technically, it isn't. It's a church of all faiths and none.
That doesn't mean that there aren't "real Christians" in it. Although admittedly, the fire and brimstone crew are few and far between. For some reason, they seem to have a problem with open communication between all faiths and respecting differences therein.
Seems to me like you are saying what I said... "doubt them scriptures Girl! They lied to you and you will be all the better once you know what I know" sound about right??? Thing FOR ME is, I accept what the scripture says. I do not allow unnecessary info to choke out the "seed" or carry it away altogether. The bible is true to me. Many people and nonpeople will say or do whatever it takes to discredit it. I just don't go there. Many do; but they must answer for them as I must answer for me. I can see my father standing before me asking, "how did you handle the words that I gave you?" I cant fathom my answer being, well nobody liked those words, so I just went along with them about it or stayed silent so nobody would be offended.
The method of study of the bible; or the other stuff??? See, I'm just not interested in the unknowable history of it.
I just read that the book of Matt was penned by an "unknown" author. If this is true, we cannot be sure that it wasn't dropped from heaven and left at the door of one of the canonical organizers I cannot budge on that.
I've never known of a Christian as fearful as you, genaea. I'm not trying to be harsh to you but when I read what you type, fear is what I see. I think the difference between you and some of the other Christians here is that they've investigated, questioned, and searched the Bible, all of it, good and bad, and all of it's history, background, etc. to come to and make the informed decision as to WHY they believe it to begin with. With you, I could be wrong and if so, I apologize, but it seems you just read/study/use it for personal gain (Heaven), reinforcement of your actions, and self-interpretation only. You do not seem to care, nor does it seem to matter why you believe it, just that you are supposed to and do. Again, I'm sorry if it's harsh, but it seems like a shallow path then if all some see in you is the fear to think outside of your own head. Doing so will not make you less of a Christian but will likely fortify your belief and strengthen your faith if it is a strong as you say it is.
It does not make others less of a Christian because they are informed of things that you aren't or see things differently than you. If you see their knowledge about the faith that you share as threatening to yours, why is that? Fear strangles, stifles, and chokes and because you hold onto it so tightly, it's little wonder then why you feel that you are on that island you mentioned earlier.
I am very clear on your points. Fear is not the issue it's faith. Take it as is or leave it is up to each of us. Im taking.
There are some people that are very dear to me that are also highly religious. Christian.
They absolutely refuse to read anything or discuss anything that might shake their faith. No books looking at historical records of Jesus time. Nothing about how the bible was created. No discussion with a non-believer, except an effort to convert them.
If faith is shaken, hell awaits around just a tiny bit of doubt. Never, ever allow such doubt to exist, then, and that means never truly examine beliefs. Believe, just as you say a child does, without questioning or reason.
Does it sound familiar?
Nothing you say sounds familiar. Absolutely nothing.
Just as an aside, where do you get those children that believe without questioning or reason? I'd like to order one. Maybe "Because I said so." might work on them rather than a 15 minute round-table discussion about the pros and cons of brushing one's teeth.
Naw - brushing teeth doesn't work. You gotta have something they want anyway - then you work on making them believe it. Santa Claus, maybe, or the Easter Bunny.
Sorry, that doesn't work either.
The four year old is entirely too intelligent to believe in Santa. She took a look at the presents and then looked at me and said "Mom, I saw that wrapping paper in your closet."
I actually find it kind of interesting- Because of the autism, she lacks almost all imagination. Such things as Santa, the Easter bunny etc, are quickly dismissed. She wouldn't buy the God thing unless he walked up and shook her hand. So I think that gives some insight into the type of personality required to be religious.
Fascinating. I know that losing a sense, hearing maybe, tends to sharpen other senses in compensation.
Is it possible that autism has done the same? Sharpen or cause early development of the logical processes of the brain? Or, without imagination, she doesn't want for anything?
Oh, she still wants... just specific concrete things.
She's a very linear thinker. Teaching her math and science is amazingly easy. Teaching how to read is like driving a toothpick through a steel plate. Without imagination, empathy is also difficult. But yes, she'll outstripe me in math by the time she's 10 if she keeps going at this rate. If not sooner.
So yeah, I think there is a bit of sharping of logic in lieu of imagination. A savantism of sorts.
Funny, I've noticed that mathematicians and engineers tend to be religious or open to all kinds of fantasies. I had a conversation with a mathematician a while back who insisted humans don't need food and that we can get all our nutrition from the sun.
According to a couple Jehovah's Witness sites I've seen, it's the same thing; the reason they are forbidden to associate with other Christians or study the bible without the interpretation of the Watchtower is that such actions may cause them to question the faith. Unfortunately I too have family members who will not tolerate any historical or non-christian examination of the bible, for the same reasons as the Jehovah's Witnesses, yet they criticise the JWs for the exact same thing.
Which always kind of implied to me that they think God wants mindless idiots... or that God is so pathetic that everyone would pick a different way if they knew about it.
It's insecurity. People who want to keep other people ignorant, be it in religion or otherwise, know deep down that they are inferior and people will only agree with them if there is no other option.
And so we get the old chestnut that we must come like little children, not free thinking adults.
Yeah, I keep hearing that. I don't think it means what they think it means.
It does sort of make one feel as though they're standing at the edge of the Cliffs of Insanity, does it not?
With a child's non-judgemental love maybe? But even that means God should never be questioned...
I always took it to mean open and un-prejudiced. Then there comes the argument of whether it is possible to be knowledgeable without being prejudiced. I hope it is.
Well, they(other Christians here) have faith too, just as strong as yours. I hope you can accept that. I guess for some, it's equally important to them how they get to Heaven not just only that they do.
I cannot speak for other Christians here, as I don't believe you accurately may. Jesus had guidelines. We are not allowed willy or nilly. Truth is all I'm after. Not evidence that Christ was/is a liar. I know better. See???
Who is saying Christ is/was a liar? Certainly not me. I'm not speaking for them, I SEE their (other Christians here) faith here in their words, actions, and behavior so yes, I can say with confidence that they have faith. I see Christ in them therefore I believe they have faith. That's how it works. See????
I don't think anyone here is trying to "discredit the bible," Cgenaea. But they are discreting yourself, often, consistently. You and your attitude of obstinate refusal to open your eyes and ears to any other possible interpretation.... this is what most people here are willing to argue about.
Here is where I slightly disagree with you. From what I've seen here on the forums, there do indeed appear to be some atheists here who try to discredit the bible as a whole because of their hard belief that there is no God. There are other atheists and those tho have a-theistic thoughts who disagree with some of the interpretation and application of the bible while not trying to discredit the bible itself.
We must come to him as children ears and hearts open to receive. How many 5 yr olds will be able to believe "your dad is just trying to trick you. These are the real rules he wants you to follow." Or, "your daddy didn't make those rules you need to check HIS background quick before he gets home..."
You are right. If you don't want to see reality you need to be very gullible.
Good point. Children will get in cars with strangers holding candy, for instance. It is very easy to convince a child something is true when it is not (think Santa, tooth fairy, Easter bunny, etc.).
So if we "go to God" as a child would, with a child's gullible mind, lack of life experience and inability to reason, it makes it much, much easier for the priests to be convincing. I laughed, for instance when my little grandson saw his parents as the TV camera panned over the stadium at the football game, then again a few seconds later when it panned the other side of the filled 50,000 seat stadium. He knew what he wanted to see, what he wanted to be true, so it obviously was!
Much the same way, I imagine, as when MLM associates are trained to go after young, inexperienced and gullible people to join.
I said daddy. He is normally trusted without question. I guess some of us kids actually do PREFER the stranger with the big piece of candy though...
Didn't you know that sometimes Daddy molests his children? Beats them for no good reason? Should they lean on his every word then? Or is that too specific for the analogy?
We were not talking about dads per se. But his children's view of him. Yes daddies here can really suck big rotten eggs. But I digress...
Are we forgetting that most daddies, uncles, cousins, school masters, Boy Scout leaders, priests are responsible, caring, sensitive, trustworthy and valued MEN? Just think on this please everyone. I am talking about the males of our species, most of us with healthy sexual appetites. Please STOP equating men with doing naughty things with children. It's a gross distortion intended to belittle and outlaw men in our society.
Not pushing this post on to you, AThousandWords. Just using the occasion to fly my banner of protest.
*shrug* Daddy, Mommy, Uncle, Brother, Sister or total stranger - it makes no difference.
The point is that children will believe what they want to, making it very easy to confuse them and convince them something is true when it isn't. Which is what your concept of an invisible god requires - people that will believe without questioning, simply because it makes them feel good. As good as that candy the stranger has.
No. Nothing feels better to a kid than candy. But you have purposefully missed my point. And I understand.
No one missed the point. You're just convinced we missed it because you think you made a good point... And we're explaining why you didn't.
You cannot explain to me that I didn't. My point was made; acknowledged or no.
Actually, I DO understand. You are trying to make Daddy into God, and thus exclude all others from the necessity of unreasoned belief. You are trying, again, to force feed the platitudes of the religious to the general public.
Doesn't work, though - if unreasoned belief is good for you, then it is good for you. Whether Daddy=god or stranger=god or god is not part of the equation at all. Better that you forget about the nice sounding, PC platitude and just say what you mean.
Come right out and say it, plain so that all can understand exactly what you mean. That we must not try to reason about god, that we will not and cannot "learn" about Him that way, that using reason will destroy belief, that it is necessary to believe in Him for no other reason than we want to.
Yep!!! Jesus respected all positions. He said, everyone can get to the father however they want using WHATEVER method most comfortable for them!!! wait...no he didn't.
John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Lay a bible on a table, letting it flop open at a random place.
Drop a dart from 6' above the bible. Copy the verse where it lands into the HP forums.
As nearly everything posted in these forums have multiple interpretations and meanings, as nearly everything (such as those random verses posted here) have no context and thus little to no meaning, because of these things I do NOT know better. Verses posted without discussion and explanation are without value; you might as well drop that dart.
You sound like the teachers that get frustrated with the students they're teaching as though the lecture was supposed to be enough for them to get a handle on what they were supposed to be learning. Always in bad taste for a teacher to assume things about the student (or for a speaker to assume things about their audience.)
I will withhold what/who you sound like. I'm a Christian
Please withhold nothing. Tell me what I sound like. It sounds like you're taking this personally.
Are you playing nice with them tonight? How are you?
Once one is truly on the path God set, he may not be plucked. Faith grows because God makes himself plainer; teaching at your pace. He gives more and more of himself. Faith first...if only a tiny bit. NowTHAT is what scripture says. All else is just white noise.
Scripture also explains how badly you can beat a slave with a stick. Have you given that much thought?
Why you always bustin' lose an OT scripture? You have NO idea what JESUS said???
Sure I do.
‘The Scripture cannot be broken’ (John 10:35)
‘Have you not read that which was spoken to you by God?’ (Matthew 22:31)
‘Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished’ (Matthew 5:18)
(Luke 17:29, 32)
We already know that isn't true due to the fact Christians become atheists.
That's a good way to describe most if not all of your posts.
I quoted scripture and that word never returns void. If you love me, keep my commands. I believe it's a direct quote.
Really? Quote, please, clearly showing that god demands faith in Him before He will provide faith through His teaching?
Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Edit: Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
1Jn_3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
Rom_12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. (NIV)
That's quite a difference. A very major difference, in fact, if you interpret yours as saying that everyone has faith. Wonder which God inspired version is correct and which one is a lie?
There is only 1 belief system in the world which states that God took it upon Himself to redeem mankind back to His grace. All other systems believe you make your own way back to Him. Can you guess which one?
No, from that reply I could never guess which which version was correct. Redeeming mankind has zero to do with built in faith provided by God.
Can you guess which system is right? What do you base your guess on?
My guess is not a guess. It is by experience. To hear the voice of God, one must listen for His voice. I experienced Jesus Christ personally, not corporately as many would suppose. Of course you are allowed to disregard my experience and count it as dross. That is a choice made by you yourself, if you choose to do so.
So you had faith before you met God, and therefore all others do, too. (making assumptions here - if incorrect, please say so).
That means the NIV, probably the most common version being sold in the world today, is wrong - either God never inspired or "supervised" it or intentionally lied.
Let me axe you a question. Can a mountain move by faith?
Mountains are inanimate objects, without a brain or muscles. It cannot move by itself at all, and neither can it have faith.
Yet mountains do move. They move approx 25,000 mph if located at the equator because of the rotation of the earth. They move further as they orbit a sun, Even further do they move as that solar system orbits its galaxy.
Pure actualization. <----- it is irrefutable
Sure, and from the reference frame of an object moving at near light speeds towards our sun, the increase of relativistic mass would have the sun turn into a black hole, but since the sun isn't a black hole, we can conclude that from particular reference frames, something can easily appear to be what it is not.
Yoohoo Mr Wilderness, your lesson in logic has begun.
Sorry stepped out.
The "lesson in logic" begins with a question concerning faith and mountains? One very, very close to the belief that "faith can move mountains? And then denies that is the meaning and moves on to the earth moving through the galaxy?
That lesson? OK - I'll bite and say there is no faith involved in the earth's movement around the sun or the sun's rotation around the galaxy. Not even in the galaxy moving through the universe or in plate tectonics. No faith required for any of those and no indication that all the faith in the universe will affect any of them one single millimeter.
Itsa a shame you are tardy. Its 55+ degrees here now, but I am expecting the coldest arctic front yet. So I declare a recess.
You said Mountains are inanimate objects, without a brain or muscles. It cannot move by itself at all, and neither can it have faith.
But yet they do move. A seeming paradox. They dont move or they cant help but move?
Logic is not just saying something is so. It also says why it cannot be so (or another way).
Actually, they don't move. What they are setting on moves. If I put a hat on, it isn't moving, I am. It stays stationary relative to my head.
F=MA Apply a net force to a mass and it has an acceleration, which results in a movement. A mountain is a mass. And that easily the problem is gone.
Obviously to move a whole mountain and command it to throw itself into the sea does require a significant amount of faith, notwithstanding the death and destruction this would cause to cities along the coast mind. However, if you want to build up to that level of faith Phoenix, might I suggest something smaller, say a paperclip. As it only takes faith the size of a mustard seed to move a mountain, to move a paperclip I guess the amount of faith would be just a few microns in diameter. Why don't you have a go and tell us how you got on?
The point I was making was how come there are mountains at all, instead of nothing? Mountains along with the rest of reality moves. People said, inanimate objects do not have a mind or will. You have something instead of nothing, You have something that behaves in a certain way instead of another. The assertion was made "why should there be a reason for all that anyway?" That is a concession of faith, not logic.
But your intent is not to debate, is it?
Your motive behind the question to wilderness 'can you move a mountain by faith' was unclear.
There are mountains because of the relative movement of tectonic plates; one is in collision with another and the land masses can either go down (subduction) or up (mountains). The plates move because they 'float' upon the mantle. A rotating iron core at the centre of the Earth keeps a molten layer of iron above in motion, and some of this motion is transferred by viscous forces to the mantle. No faith is required.
Just a question, for clarification, do you hear the actual voice of God? Or do you have feelings/urgings that you believe to be supplied by God? I think it would help conversation if you were a bit more specific. Is there an actual voice that sounds different from your internal thoughts? A voice other than the one one might "hear" when they are reading to themselves?
Sometimes it is a feeling, like knowing something is around the curve and I need to slow down. other times it is a voice, still and small teaching and revealing things to me, not like my own screaming voice inside my head.
I would suspect the still and small teaching and revealing voice is actually you and the screaming voice is something entirely different, but still treatable.
I repeat, you are allowed to disregard my experience and count it as dross. That is a choice made by you yourself, if you choose to do so.
Edit: I am out for a while now so don't expect a quick reply.
I am not disregarding the voices in your head, SirDent, quite the contrary. I'm confident you probably do hear them and am only offering the information that the screaming voice is usually treatable.
Besides Jailtime, do you have any information on how to treat people that "make believe they are practicing psychiatry?"
Hearing screaming voices in ones head is something every doctor will tell you to get professional help and will also tell you medication can help the voices subside allowing that person to lead a more normal life. This is not make believe.
Shouldnt we leave the prognosis and treatments to professionals Dr. EncephaloiDead ? What about surgery?
You are not going to operate on your little sister's brain are you? Or are you just offering your professional opinions here?
I tried that once when we were kids, didn't go over very well.
I think I see your confusion, one does not have to be a professional in a particular field to understand things within that field. For example, physicists and chemists need to have some understanding of the others theories and laws. A framer needs to understand what a cabinet installer requires so that he frames the bathroom and kitchens as square as possible.
That is exactly the point I was making. We agree. A qualified doctor would most certainly know how to treat screaming voices.
I removed a deep sliver.
My concern is in the case of your hypothetical little sister, who sometimes has tea parties with her teddy bear, might become your patient, Doctor, and I personally do not think it would be okay for someone like you to be cracking her skull and giving her a lobotomy. Do you concur?
Furthermore, to take metaphors for/of "still small voices" eg inspiration, intuition, instinct, imagination, the ineffable or types of qualia for instance (among many others) and misconstrue them, to take an opportunity to gratuitously suggest someone of mental illness, when one is not qualified, some might consider to be down-right anti-social behavior, as in, you know, kind of like antisocial personality disorder. What do you think Dr.?
Personally, I believe in intuition and inspiration. Do you?
I most certainly do, and I appreciate the fact you're making your comparisons to the common behavior a small child, almost, but not entirely relevant to grown adults hearing screaming voices.
Let me get this straight, you're suggesting that it is an antisocial personality disorder to inform someone that the screaming voices in their heads can often be treated by a doctor and medication?
I think that depends on whether or not your versions of institution and inspiration include screaming voices. If so, then my answer is would have to be, no.
Most people have a train of thought. I, for instance am anticipating your responses and even writing up rebuttal or responses in advance, anticipating your responses in advance and typing them up on a notepad and even spell checking them. Most people do not just mindlessly spill their thoughts randomly, out of nowhere. They have a train of thought. When compared to things like intuition or inspiration, I can definitely see where they would sound pretty loud, even screaming loud, comparatively, That clear up your confusion? I am not taking time from your practice am I? We are not on the clock right?
I believe in intuition and inspiration.- Einstein
I am literally astounded by your intellectual prowess, as I should be.
I think that freight car already passed, imsc.
You can? How does that explain all the other screaming that isn't intuitive or inspired? I mean, it's not that screaming voices only focus on those things to scream about, or is that what you're suggesting?
What he is in fact saying is that he is qualified to diagnose antisocial personality disorder, while you not qualified to tell someone to seek professional help. It's really a simple case of hypocrisy.
In fact I am saying "some might consider it antisocial personality disorder." Not me however. I am not "pretending" to be a licensed psychiatrist.
Oh I see, that's how you get away with making claims without making claims. It's not hypocritical at all is one put a "one might say" in from of an assertion? I'll have to use that rather clever technique if I'm in in front of a cop or judge. I'll see how "one might say you have an antisocial personality disorder" goes over.
Well thanks. I see your enemies are in front of you, behind you and on each side of you. How can they possibly escape, considering? Is there no hope for them?
See, I think there's a whole lexicon that Christians, especially fundamental Christians, use that interferes with conversation with others not of that ilk. I understand what you mean by "talking to God" and "being moved by the spirit" but to those outside of the fundamental, perhaps even slightly southern, religious culture, those phrases are nonsensical, even indicative of psychological illness.
I mean, after all, hearing voices really is a sign of mental illness. It's really hard to have a conversation with someone that is essentially, to them, admitting that they are mentally ill.
Maybe conversation might be eased a bit by using words more clearly understood and experienced by all?
I actually thought I was very clear and concise in my statement before. I wonder if you think the prophets of the Old Testament were mentally unstable. What about Jesus Himself who said, "I came to glorify the Father and what I hear Him say, I speak." (paraphrased)
To be honest, I would think someone who calls themself a Christian would know this stuff. I guess maybe I am wrong.
No Sir. Only fanatics believe that stuff.
I dont think you are wrong. I have never heard a Christian call Jesus mentally ill. They must be confused
Do you think you converse with God or Jesus? Because that can be tested.
Yes, yes, you TOO are a much better Christian than I am.
Do you get a prize now?
You, too, seemed to miss my point. Funny that, it's almost like you just want to argue.
But that couldn't be it...
Yes, yes, you're a much better Christian than I am. Feel better?
Now, back to the point I think you missed, which was how using certain language outside of the Church and groups that you belong to makes you look, and how it interferes with communication.
Or don't you care about communication? If not, why are you here?
Yes we all have that but some of us understand the workings of the mind.
Right, some of us think we are having conversation with God in our minds when we are simply thinking for ourselves. All you have to do is ask the person who claims to communicate with God to supple information that they couldn't possible know but a God would. When they come up short we know the person is a fraud.
That 'feeling' or 'knowing' is not the preserve of Christians. What you call th voice of God talking to you, everyone else calls a hunch or intuition. Or are they hearing the voice of satan because they don't havd the mind of Christ? A satan whisper as has been suggested here by another hubber.
That's the thing about 'personal' experiences, they are personal and don't affect anyone else, so there is no reason for anyone to not disregard them. Of course, when it comes to claiming you hear voices and meet with gods personally, the validity of the claim is obviously going to get questioned because you're now talking about gods. The fact that others don't hear those voices and don't meet with gods personally is quite extraordinary considering that you say you do. Even the vast majority of believers don't make those claims.
The questions are then begged, "Why doesn't God talk with me and meet with me personally? Why does He talk and meet with SirDent?
Since God is not speaking with me, I'm not able to get that answer, even though SirDent says, "To hear the voice of God, one must listen for His voice." Unfortunately, no amount of listening has ever received the voice of God to appear. The begged questions remain unanswered.
We are left with getting answers from SirDent, who by all means and purposes is completely incapable of explaining this phenomenon, but certainly with an air of superiority will tell us it must be our fault that we can't hear Gods voice speaking to us and His presence standing directly in front of us.
Jimmy Stewart's movie, "harvey" immediately comes to mind.
" I started to walk down the street when I heard a voice saying: "Good evening, Mr. Dowd". I turned, and there was this big white rabbit leaning against a lamp-post. Well, I thought nothing of that, because when you've lived in a town as long as I've lived in this one, you get used to the fact that everybody knows your name. And naturally, I went over to chat with him.
We talked like that for a while and then I said to him, "You have the advantage on me. You know my name and I don't know yours." And right back at me he said, "What name do you like?" Well, I didn't even have to think twice about that. Harvey's always been my favorite name. So I said to him, I said, "Harvey." And, this — this is the interesting thing about the whole thing. He said, "What a coincidence. My name happens to be Harvey."
Oh, yes! Yes. Yes — these things always work out just the way Harvey says they will. He is very, very versatile. Did I tell you he could stop clocks? Well, you've heard the expression 'His face would stop a clock'? Well, Harvey can look at your clock and stop it. And you can go anywhere you like — with anyone you like — and stay as long as you like. And when you get back, not one minute will have ticked by. ... You see, science has overcome time and space. Well, Harvey has overcome not only time and space — but any objections."
But you dont actually believe that do you. On the one hand you agree God took it upon himself to redeem mankind, then you say all other systems require the user to make their own way back to him. Yet you also say the redemption is effectively null and void if the individual does not make their own way back to him via a sinners prayer or believing what your church says for example.
There is still a choice to make no matter how you try and spin it., Without holiness, no man shall see God.
Saved: 1Pe_4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? What of the ungodly and sinners? Where is the regeneration of those that do not believe?
2Pe_2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; What of the rest who did not enter the ark before the rain came?
Jud_1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. What happened to those who did not believe?
Rev_21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. What about the nations of those who are not saved? Where will they walk?
No matter how you try and spin it, either the Written Word is right or it is wrong. You either believe it all, or believe none of it. I recall you stated that you spent 25 years in Pentecostal churches. I wonder why those years were not spent in Christ.
Because those years were spent listening to fanatical confidence tricksters
. When you gradually come to realise that someone is trying to sell you a lie, it dawns on you all of a sudden that you must run a mile very fast . When you stop running and breathe the fresh air freedom the real truths can come back into your life. You, Sir, still have time to leave the c..p behind.
Both translations actually said the same thing.
I hate to disagree with you, because we agree on so much in the long run, but both versions actually say very different things, and make very different claims.
The version that SirDent posted says, specifically "God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. "
Where the NIV that Wilderness says something very different: "accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you."
The difference here is "every man" - as in Paul is making the claim that every man has been given the gift of Faith - vs "each of you". Well, who is the you? This appears in Romans - a letter that Paul wrote to the Christian house church of Rome. Therefore, it's reasonable to deduce that the "you" is the members of the church, specifically - and not EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON EARTH. That is a huge difference.
What really bothers me about this type of cherry picking that christians do, is that if an atheist takes a single verse, the number one objection we get is CONTEXT. Were not taking the verse in context, and if we only look at the context, the meaning will suddenly become clear. The context of this passage is in a letter that is very specific. It is specifically geared towards the growing church in Rome. It wasn't meant for the church in Corinth or Galatia. They got their own letters, with their own contextual clues.
Hebrews 11 (King James Version)
11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … ersion=KJV
6 "for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
Very good. So if we have no belief (faith) in God, as I do not, then we can never "cometh to God".
Nice God you have; we are destined to burn forever if he did not make us with that faith already installed. And the vast majority through the millennia has not had that faith; most have never even heard of the Christian god.
Mr Wilderness, I admire your conservative politics, pro capitalism or whatever from what I have seen or can recall. It is out of respect for that, that I feel inclined to indulge you. I scored top 5% in the country on High School tests that prepare kids for college. I was thinking of going to computer school back in the early 80's and took a test and I could swear the guy said "take your time". so I did and he came in and said times up., because the test was timed. He said he had never seen a score that high, Neverthless my family was broke and I went into the oilfield as just a kid and tripped pipe for days in 105 heatwaves to minus 35 windchill conditions. I got a GED. You got my attention because of your conservative views in politics, which I respect and admire from what I recall however you give the believers grief. It should at least be an educated grief.
Ah, but when the book can be, and is, interpreted to mean anything the reader wants there is neither need nor possibility of education.
And I don't try to give believers grief, or least very seldom. I even support them some of the time. What I do try to do is teach them to think and more importantly why their method of thinking will never sway a non-believer.
Anyways back to logic.
Reality is based upon - pure actualization. Like you even said- inanimate objects don't have a mind or faith, even if those inanimate objects traverse billions of miles. What do you think?
Not sure just what you mean by pure actualization, but I did say that inanimate objects do not have a mind.
What do you think is an explanation or reason why reality is existing instead of why it is not?
Why must there be a reason at all? Reasons come from reasoning of an intelligence - as there has never been shown to be an intelligence out there to make a reason for what we call reality, perhaps there isn't one.
That was interesting. I'll sum it up you I may.
I'm very very smart and respect your political views, but you are being stupid.
Why the need to tell everyone how smart you are?
Mr Wilderness has a bad habit of calling people immature and illogical. I am making him reconsider that.
By telling him how smart you are? That'll fix him.
Logic and maturity have little to do with intelligence.
I would say that neither is true. Most people find intelligence, defined as ability to learn, decreasing as they age. There actually is a basis, however weak, for "You can't teach an old dog new tricks".
Likewise, it is difficult to learn without logic. While pre-digested pap (times tables, spelling, biblical verses, etc.) can be memorized, learning things new to mankind becomes more difficult when logic is not a partner in the learning process.
I would agree, but one can also be intelligent and uneducated.
Considering you cannot live a life in the wild and survive with our weak pathetic bodies and low intelligence, I would agree. Think cavemen.
Some of my elders, in my father's generation, were extremely intelligent, IMHO, yet Dad got more school than most of them and only finished the 8th grade. No, education or even vast knowledge is not required for intelligence.
It has a lot to do with choosing to be wise or not however. Wisdom and intelligence... I see wisdom in all kinds of people with varying IQ scores. On the other hand, some very brilliant people can make some very profound mistakes in their thinking sometimes.
There is no logic in religious beliefs; in that matter I do say that people with such beliefs are acting illogically. Do you disagree? Is there logic in believing in an invisible, undetectable creature from another universe that built us and loves us?
But calling people immature? You'll have to show me.
Yet, Melissa corrected your example. Tectonic Plates move and form mountains. Mountains are relatively stationary atop these plates.
You all really would argue about anything, wouldn't you?
What the fundamentals refer to as "spirit" and "God's voice" is what others refer to as intuition and conscious.
The difference is that it tends to lead towards what the Bible says and away from base instinct. Therefore "guided by God."
I think most Atheists understand that, rather than actually considering it a mental illness... they are just trying to prove a point that it adds to the illogical face of religion.
I also think most Christians understand this, but want to make it appear more than what it is by upping the "mystic" and "spiritual" theatrics. Obviously, if everyone has it, then it makes it less special that they do.
Regardless, both sides are just being melodramatic by feigning ignorance for the sake of stirring the pot.
Just so you know. Please continue your meaningless bickering, by all means, no one would want to have a reasonable conversation when back-biting is so much fun.
Intellect and knowledge starts to OUTshine Faith if one deems necessary. Lean not unto your own understanding and don't think more highly of self are not decorations.
Sometimes, if truth is what is being searched for.
Other times, depending on what the goal is, faith is far superior.
Faith exercised genuinely, is often due to facts that can be known, or truths. They hopefully go hand in hand for people more often than not.
Sounds like something someone would tell someone to keep them from thinking. Why would God not want one to think?
Because he knows you can't do it his way on your own. But he will not stop you from doing your thinking for yourself if you like.
Is it a design flaw? Sorry, but if you could step back and look at what you are saying subjectively you'd understand that you have been dubbed. It's not something a all knowing perfect God would say, but it is something someone trying to manipulate you would say.
The Bible encourages people to think and exercise their minds. Even in one of the commands about loving God, it specifically includes, "With all your mind." Thinking.....
Children trust their parents. If mom and dad says let's go, the kids hop in the car. And they do not instruct on how to drive or which road to take. They follow.
That's true for most when they are young, but when they mature they should ask question. Do you still obey your parents without question?
Hello... the scripture left no room for growing nor maturing.
...said as little children...
"When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me."
That's because the scripture was written by people attempting to manipulate the tribe. You were not the target of the deception. Remember the end was supposed to come before the end of Jesus's generation.
I am so glad that you no longer have an issue with vocalizing where your faith lies. That's growth.
I said he said, "It is fin" on the cross.'not only that, many saw him alive again. So they saw the end and the new beginning. A two-fer.
Everything did not end as scripture describes. We are still here.
"Everything" in the mind of Jesus? I'd say the kingdom of heaven, which most certainly includes the will of God. In that case, we are here, but we have been dramatically changed by the gift he willingly bestowed. So we are NOT here as we were; doomed to death because of sin. The old way died on the cross with Jesus. Hmmm... I like this line of thought.
A hub sprung to life. Fruition may take a min...
It's comments like this one where i cringe. And, yet, the religious consider it a great point. I know people (who had formerly conducted themselves in, what i perceived to be, an intelligent manner) who fall at the foot of some religious sect's idea of the cross then chastise others for not doing the same through comments such as this. On some level, i attempt to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they don't mean what it appears they mean but, I have to tell you. From every angle I can find you are insisting everyone forego reasonable thought and follow suit by regurgitating the conclusions someone else came to through selectively cobbling passages together to arrive at some conclusion which raises them above all others who refused to follow suit. It lacks appeal and flies in the face of any perception of enlightenment. Although, I'm sure, convincing people it makes sense can be quite profitable.
I am sure that you will somehow get over the misery cobbled out for you once some things come to realization. Let the first be, I was speaking to someone else concerning a very specific issue. Hopefully my thought process was more successfully relayed to the person who the message was actually for; and that they did not fall off of THEIR throne for their LACK of understanding my point of THAT matter. Didn't say, "when you grow up keep the immaturity." Said AS. not actually. Are you ok now or should i get the paramedics???
The scripture "come as little children" was not speaking about the possible growing and maturing that one does over the course of a lifespan. ...says, come as little children... get it???
For further clarification, the scripture quoted was not quoted verbatim.
The idea in my mind that was being conveyed was that children are trusting; eager; expectant; innocent; meek; and usually in no wise, skeptical.
I love how insulting capitalization can make what might otherwise be a non insulting comment. But, if it made you feel better... ps. Don't dial 911. Prank phone calls sometimes incur heavy penalties.
Either way. None of us are children. Open hearts and open minds is probably the extent of the meaning. However, even children recognize bull when they see it.
So there are some things we must come to an understanding about. First things first; are you bothered by the magnitude of a capital letter??? Secondly, before receiving the lot of comments this morning, I realized that my previous post to you should be edited for clarification. Not sure it was added before or after your response. Open hearts and minds as the jist of what Jesus was saying does not seem to fully grasp the idea. It takes children a long time to catch on to "bull" so if you come as they do with the description I came up with before, you have no time for skepticism. You're too busy grabbing the sweet surprises you came for rather than incorporating the skeptical mindset of really SMART adults at the onset of the meeting.
God knows BS too.
Good Morning. I find that the truth often differs from what is "appealing".
Really? I think those in search of truth react positively when presented with it.
Hmm. Maybe on some levels I agree. Explain how you think it is witnessed to determine if we actually could agree.
They have these things called: Truth Generating Machines aka garage door openers. They operate on frequency. In between two frequencies is an infinite amount of integral frequencies. Just to keep up with all that truth, one would have to be infinite. How much more to have the complete truth?
It's very simple actually. If something can't be repeated and demonstrated under ridged scrutiny, it's most likely not real. For instance I can tell you God talks to me and gives me information but if I can't give you any information that I don't already have I've not being honest.
Demonstrate all the integral frequencies between one frequency and two frequency..
Turn a radio dial and pick up different stations.
Read closer - what integers exist between one and two?
If you had a really good radio you could tune it to
103.14159 2 FM
103.14159 26 FM
103.14159 265 FM
103.14159 2653 FM
103.14159 26535 FM
Now your job is to demonstrate them all.
It's very simple actually. If you can't demonstrate it then its likely not real, ain't that what you said?
Knowledge is finite. Truth is a different matter altogether.
Without going into the mechanics of it all, would it not stop at the frequency of one cycle per plank length? When the wavelength is only 1.616X10^-35 meter, it can go no shorter - cannot be divided any further - after sufficient iterations of additional pi digits, you should run up against that limit.
Perhaps truth is limited after all?
Thank you for reminding me of my own stupidity
An Integer is a number that can be written without any fraction or decimal.
There is no number between 1 and 2 that can be so written.
Good evening Melissa, its not often we have the pleasure of meeting.
Ok, sorry, it seems there was a mis-quote somewhere along the line.
You see all that faith you were just awarded? Happens all the time...
I know I was wandering by, looked at your post and suddenly was attempting to read Greek. Never could wrap my mind around physics.
Its a thought experiment, not about lowest possible frequency, but distinct frequency possible with my IBOC digital radio receiver .
What is the truth of PI?
Is it really possible considering the length of our lives etc, that we can have complete knowledge of all those digits?
As the number of digits in pi is infinite, no there is no possibility we can ever know them all. Given that either a brain or other memory system can store one digit per subatomic particle, there is still an finite number of particles in the universe; nothing can hold the infinite number of digits. Not even the volume of the universe, expressed in planck lengths.
Such is the nature of an absolute necessity, regardless of infinite series. It is out of our range of perception as humans. Perhaps if you tried to prove your existence to God, He might notice you seeing your limitations, in this regard.
Good debate and you are honest.
Don't know about good, but interesting anyway. Though I often hadn't the foggiest what was being discussed!
Not sure about honest, either, not when I claim there are infinite particles in the universe. Had to go back and edit, but you can write it off to senility.
Despite your knowledge you do not seem to be aware of the truth.
"CILQ-FM is a radio station, broadcasting at 107.1 FM in Toronto, Ontario."
Think of it this way...
When I login to my account here, I do it successfully just about every time. I can even demonstrate that one second im off and the next, in. However you cannot demonstrate my login. you do not have the password. Does that mean that I have not actually logged in???
Of course. So your claim of logging CAN be verified by independent observation - that a specific individual cannot do it is meaningless. Someone else can show you logged in, and objectively so. No need to depend on you personal, subjective words to prove it.
Ahh, but somebody (HP staff) can see exactly when and how she logs in. They can objectively verify her claim both by watching their programming respond to her and by the records it undoubtedly keeps.
Here,, anyone who asks for the "password" gains access. I am not the only key to spiritual experience. There are, im sure, at least hundreds who may back up my claims with their own personal experience.
No they don't; you've repeatedly made it very, very clear that one must have some faith in God before He will speak to them. No faith, no access, and a great many people only have faith that there is no god.
Saving for the at least hundreds who may make the same claim I do.
Sorry about the "catch". Picture this:
Dr. Ronald Ashcroft, top executive of, say, NASA has claimed that there is astronomical proof that there could not possibly be a creator of the universe for some reason and he tested the thing-a-ma-bobs and proof positive there is no God. Now how much "proof" do you ask him for? (Once you are able to contain the wide smile)
See, in order for God to prove himself to you; he must have your confidence that you at least believe he is "floating" around. You do not ask the wall a question; because you do not believe IT will answer. And you can see the wall. What good is Lord, help me see; if you feel you may as well be talking to the...
Then, it seems to me, it is up to God to provide that small bit of faith. After all, He made some of us without faith and worse, without the ability to create the faith in ourself without help.
Contrary to your statement and quite likely more accurate; you "trust" Dr NASA by faith in his credentials and of course his agreement with your position. You have faith in whatever you want. Someone here (I forget who) has faith that the scriptures have been deceitfully tampered with. Someone else, faith in evidence (which could NEVER be fabricated) So, we do all have faith in something as we all constantly demonstrate here. We just CHOOSE where to place it.
It was the testing of the thing-a-ma-bobs that had me convinced. At first, though, I was a little skeptical with the answer "some reason", although the explanation was air tight.
What abject nonsense! Why should one need to PREDETERMINE what has yet to be DETERMINED? And why does this silly weak God need help from me? If he was really God, he would just stop all this silly BS, and mindboggling nonsense, and reveal himself....in a manner that's not completely INSANE!
The problem is that we get the same reaction from God as we do from the wall.... unless, of course, we are psychotic.
What is the difference between Cgenaea, God and a Brick Wall?
We predetermine all the time while focusing in on factors such as "magnificently flawLESS" testing, credentials, testers experience, repeated testing, etc. We are hardly ever present on test day, we just take someone's word based solely on blind (say it with me) faith. No faith in God required. We can place ours wherever we like.
Stacked up against the hundreds of millions who won't back up your claims?
You successfully log into your account, Cgenaea! You are able to do so because of human ingenuity. Curiosity - inquiry - experiment - applying science - building on past experiences - sharing results and new knowledge.
All this is real and tangible. I can see, feel, share in the achievements. I believe in the processes because they work for me and countless others.
I seems to me that you are stuck in a mold that shuts out light. It remains perpetually tarnished by your attachment to a belief in evil; and therefore in need of forgiveness. You are imprisoned by your beliefs.
This is your choice. Compare it with my choice.
It stands to reason that because I have to log in from time to time so does everyone else. It would be up to you to demonstrate that you don't need to.
To be fair, not always. Especially when said truth shatters the lie they have carefully and painstakingly built for themselves
Is a certain truth the same 2,000 years * from now at a different place still truth* ? How do you know?
In that case, would they truly be searching for truth....or simply hoping to bolster the lie?
I will concede that it is not only possible, but probable, our preconceived notions are often shattered when we encounter things we eventually accept as truth...which initially cause some turmoil. But, that is always better than the stagnant alternative.
Well, she said in search of truth.... I think not many are really in search of it, as they don't want or can't handle it when it comes up against a chosen worldview that may not fit. The facts of matters, logic and reason sometimes have to take a back seat and people would rather think the other person is full of bad arguments and put them down than carefully rebut them.
So many of these forums are about truth and how that lines up with our chosen worldviews. What people do when faced with a worldview that clashes with their own, they don't take it well, or don't like it. What gets me the most, is that if the worldview has ideas that has an error, people still won't abandon it. They do a number of other things as we see. To me, it is kind of heart breaking, even if the people have been snappy and rude to others when the clash happens. It is like it isn't really about the truth and reason for many. I was agreeing with your comment initially, and still kind of do, except for the part where I remembered she said, "in search of truth..."
People really in search of truth are happy to find it, though sometimes the truth is hard to handle. Like the person that has a cancer, is happy/devastated for the realization..... To avoid it and lash out at the doctor for the "bad news, reality of truth" he shared, helps no one. Still, "happy" to know it... Some would just rather go to their deaths never knowing or having to accept truths and facts and dealing with the real problems.
Yep!!! and I am positive that some of us Christians have also figured out what works "best" for the masses. Appeal... but it's just not that important for me. I really don't think Jesus set out for the sake of appeal and likability to "goad" one into salvation. Truth. Not really all that appealing.
Good morning, back!
Yet it cannot be said that anything which is appealing is bound to lack truth.
I hate discussing specific Bible verses, but most Bible scholars really do agree that really doesn't have anything to do with obedience or intelligence or knowledge. It wasn't literal either. I hate screaming context, but it really does matter here.
Jesus was blessing children and it was argued by his disciples that he should stop because they didn't have any problems to be "blessed away." He was basically saying that all men should come to him like the children. With love, without ambitions and without pride or prejudice. Meekly and unpretentious. Without blemish.
This is actually one of the least argued verses in the Bible... Pretty much every scholar says the same thing...
As many times as I've heard that verse/phrase, never have I heard that explanation. Always that we should have the unthinking, unreasoned total faith and believe in God.
Most interesting, and it fits with other concepts such as we have a brain, so use it.
It's kind of ironic... Jesus was, at that point, considered to be primarily a teacher and a healer. One of the reasons that the disciples were turning the children away was that they couldn't be taught yet and had no illness. They saw no point and thought the parents were wasting his time. Jesus wasn't TRYING to teach them, he was simply blessing them. He was embracing them physically and then bestowing his love. His words were spoken as a rebuke to the disciples that were trying to interfere with that.
It's actually a very beautiful verse that's being degraded. It really is a case of really missing the point.
...argue over anything... no way could "trusting" be an acceptable description.
An off thought: were there some Bush-es or Obamas or Carsons in the audience?
And another: it very well could have been metaphor for both "ends" or either.
And just one more: he could have meant the generation of believers he started. But there may a light here. Since I am convinced that there is God and he sent these words; I know that this word of scripture does not lie. So, as MY bar, I search the SCRIPTURES to confirm one of my three options (of which, may many more arise) but it will be revealed. Of course, not to YOUR liking. But you won't discuss your faith with me. Im exposed.
You search the scriptures, yes...but then change them to mean what you want them to. You don't take them as literal truth; nearly everything there has to be twisted and spun just a little.
If you're going to do that anyway, why not just write words on paper and say God told you what to write? Why bother with the bound version of His word if it all requires "interpretation" (changing and spinning) before being what He actually meant?
Simple. I think that there is much more that I must learn. The bound version is where it's at. I am not asking you to feel the same; I'm just letting you know my position.
Sometimes I think I am mad. But seldom angry; it doesn't pay to become angry.
We all have to learn. Still, it seems that if the bound version is incorrect, and needs "interpretation" to be factual and true, then it isn't worth much. Much better to just let God implant the knowledge he wanted in the bible directly into the brain. No muss, no fuss, never an error.
Again you are minding God's affairs. No one ever said that the bound version is incorrect. But it does need interpretation. The holy spirit is the thing that helps us there. For even if our interpretation errs; it will not lead to sin.
The bible has instruction for all types. Which is probably why we see what on the surface seems to appear concontradictory. Just a maybe, but I think it's worth looking into. The bible speaks to all God's children from the least to the greatest. I am different from Phoenix and Beth and Sir Dent but we all get what we need from God often right from the bible. It is evidence; but not your kind.
How many times have you been fascinated by riddles? How many poems have you gleefully interpreted? How many clues have you noticed watching Monk? How many times have you reached the same diagnosis with House? Say you HATE interpretation??? Oh, just for one thing; I see... And God does too.
Make up your mind. If the words do not mean what they say then it is incorrect. If they do then it needs no interpretation.
Poems are not interpreted; they are felt, with the purpose being to awaken an emotional response in the reader. If that is the purpose of the bible, to stir the emotions without providing facts, then it is worthless. Poems are not reality, they do not reflect reality and if that applies to scripture as well then it is of no real value.
Along those lines, the bible does not speak at all, except for what the words say. Phoenix and Beth and Cgenaea all provide their own meaning for the words; the "speaking" is done inside them, by their own mind. Nothing from the bible but a starting push.
Which of course is why there is so much discord, so much disbelief, so much anger and murder and violence in His name. Everyone "reads" and "hears" whatever it is they wish to read or hear. Not what is there.
Do people who are talking directly to you with eyes and ears open ever misunderstand or twist the meaning of what you just said to them minutes or seconds ago???
Oh sure. Whereupon additional conversation is necessary to promote communication/understanding.
Unfortunately the bible cannot do that and the only "conversation" possible is within the reader. Which is, again, why the book "says" different things to different people. Because it is saying nothing at all - those different people are saying it to themselves. And each one has something different to say.
Oh sure. Whereupon additional conversation is necessary to promote communication/understanding.
Ha-ha!!! The gist of the kingdom of heaven; the will of God and the NECESSARY steps in building a relationship with the author and finisher of FAITH, you may surely come to understand.
To "blame" the author or speaker for your misunderstanding of messages relayed is somewhat juvenile. Don't you think???
"Well I just didn't understand you Wilderness so you must not be saying a darn thing or even worse you just may be lying" is unfair, yes??? One who simply does not catch your flow should ask questions about what you meant. Right? But they should ask someone who knows what you meant. With God, there are 66 er...72 books to ask; and then God himself. The books containing the words of Jesus are much clearer as he gives a complete picture of the mind and spirit of God. But then there is a decision to make. Yea...or nay...
No, I don't find it juvenile; I find it a reasonable and expected thing when writer and reader are separated by half a world and 2,000 years.
On the other hand, if the writer was God, and He was writing to show me His love and the way to heaven, the He did a pi$$ poor job of it. There lies the dichotomy; there is none if we assume the writers were human, with human faults, frailty's, and penchant for lying to make a point.
Have you ever considered that if God wrote the bible (through human hands or however you wish) then He wrote it for the people then? That He is quite capable of changing every bible on earth to keep up with changing culture and word meanings? That He could (and should) have overseen every translation to every language, so that His word is clear and understandable?
The words that are most important are clear and understandable to all who seek.
The extra is what's biblically called meat. It's for the seasoned. No need in trying to understand 2x2 if 2+2 is foggy. get it???
The Lord handles his business his way. He knows best. He did not consult with me about what should or should not be included in the long letter to HIS children.
The bible says he knows each and every one. He knows how to convey to them. "My sheep know my voice." He was right again.
I think that you believe I make up my answers because you don't really know the bible. My words ooze scripture with every other line or so. I make up nothing. When I feel my interpretation is warranted I give it and I make clear that what I say is opinion. However that too is frowned upon
You want to talk bible; I'm your girl.
We can do it all night.
Oh, come on Cgenaea, you make up all your answers to whoever addresses you, in such a way as to show that you and your interpretation/understanding are authentic and in touch with you god.
There is so little to argue about because you set yourself up (with a little bit of help from above) to be unassailable by any normal standard of debate.
A little bit like Puella, don't you think?
Well no. Puella was evil if I'm not mistaking. The unassailable part is from above. When God is for you; who may stand against???
Make-up answers??? Just because you do not understand the flow, is no reason to now blame the speaker. What it is may be a personal faith issue yours is over there... mine? Right here.
puella was evil? By who's standards and what authority? Puella was a believer - just like you claim to be.
You know what I find interesting about you? Whenever conversation breaks down, whether it's between you and me, or you and rad, or you and Johnny - or even if it breaks down when you're communicating with another BELIEVER - You blame them. You blame the atheists for not having the intelligence and comprehension to understand things of the spirit. You blame the believers for interpreting the scripture that you felt free to interpret in your own way differently. You never seem to think that the blame rests with you.
If I'm trying to have a conversation, and it's going well - except for ONE person - fine. It may be a problem with them. When I'm trying to have a conversation, and I have a problem communicating with EVERYONE, then no - it's a problem with ME. Not everyone else.
Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe it's not the message - it's the messenger? That maybe your style/approach is so off-putting that more people than not just try to ignore you whenever possible and only respond to a fraction of what you say? Not because you've "won" but because you're just so difficult to communicate with because you're not willing to see any further than the tip of your own interpretational nose.
I have no problem with anyone. The problem may be my approach. But hey, there is no way to blow a quiet trumpet.
The bible resounds loudly. When you know it and you speak what it says, you "lose" friends. Didn't you study the bible a long time? You know. The protection of CERTAIN freedoms make it difficult to relate well to scripture. It's a mirror Ma'am...
My being unpopular with the "group" is EXACTLY what the bible promised me.
I know it hurts to be "hit" with scripture sometimes. But my remedy was relinquishment. The giving over of my brain was necessary. Yes Lord, I believe what you say. And yes Lord, I know that your word says different. And no, Lord, I AINT ready to change my actions. But Yes Lord, I know what the bible says about this.........
And then I heard. My grace is sufficient. he who is forgiven much... you know...
You are not my favorite either
No, you're not understanding my point.
In fact, you missed it completely.
But I expected as much.
It has nothing to do with the Bible - people teach and study the bible in all different ways. It's the way that you present it. You can blow a trumpet any way you want - but sometimes it's music - and sometimes it's just a bunch of loud noise with no meaning. You're so interested in saying what you want to say and proving yourself "right" in YOUR interpretation (not gods, YOURS) that you're not listening to the sound you're emitting.
No one is hating you or persecuting you. They're not angry at your message or your "bible" language. They dislike the way you present it.
I'm personally glad I'm not your favorite. As I've said before, I want to be as unlike you as possible. In fact, it's a compliment. So thank you again.
I believe what you mean is that I do not ball up into a corner nor cry "uncle" when presented with the phoney crap about the flaw of the bible. No, I wont say "well based upon your evidence you may have a point there. The bible could be just a bunch of made up stories slapped in a book and manipulated to keep control over a sect." The surety of my position is what is maddening. My bent on unbending is infuriating to the masses; people just wanna do what they do without all the strain of a sin label and nobody understands that more than I. But I heard, "my grace is sufficient" . That statement changed my thoughts. You say come boldly? Obtain what? Though red, white as what??? For even me??? He walked me through it for years!!!
Nobody can stop me now Jules! it aint hard. I had to go sit at his feet with the stains. And you know what? He sent me away with covered stains. His grace is sufficient. This man, when I WOULD go to church. WAAAAAAYYYY back; preached a sermon about his strength being made perfect in my weakness. He said, while you are FOCUSED on that issue, God is moving in on another bigger issue. That stuck and proved to be true. You remember I told you about my dream? It was imprinted. It is evident.
It is my rigidity that is off putting but it must be dealt with. Just like a treeeeeee, planted by the waaaaaater, (sing with me) iiiiii shall...
Trust me. It seems arrogant, I know. But it aint. When iiiiiii brag J, it is ABOUT GOD.
no....you do NOT know what I mean, and you're completely illustrating that every time you respond. You can guess about my meaning all you want, just like you do about everything else - but that doesn't make you correct in your assessment.
No one is expecting you to curl up and cry in a corner, but we don't expect arrogance in the face of ignorance either - and that's the only thing you seem to be good at presenting.
You do not get to use any nicknames for me. I am not Jules or J or Julie even. We're not friends. You may call me JMcFarland - that's all you know me as, and that's all you'll ever know.
Gee willickers. Now even the way I say JMcFarland is under attack...
I can tell that every thing I say now is examined under the evil eye lamp with pouting glasses. This is usually the time one slams the receiver down. But no phone. I am surprised that I was not shooed however. Please, have it your way.
Attention! Attention! Hear ye this!!! JMcFarland, with her official papers on biblical study is much much much much much smarter than some silly little ignorant bumpkin with absolutely NO bible degree and that bumpkin's name is cgenaea. Oh! And cgenaea should shut her over confident ignorant mouth and learn something from JMcFarland about the biblical tricksters who put the phoney bible together in some dark alley to dupe her stupid ass into belief in some God that don't even exist. Which is SOMETHING she would KNOW if she went to BIBLE COLLEGE!!! lol lmaorotfl
Sorry, I tried to say that with a straight face. How'd I do???
Lol... You can't even pay attention to what was actually said, can you? You have to put your own spin and interpretation on what even other people say in order for you to hear it.
Your attempts to mock me do nothing but make YOU look worse. They do nothing to me. So keep on going. Dig yourself into a deeper hole. It's all good.
I don't recall jesus ruining around mocking the people he tried to Minister to. He had compassion and love and kindness. The only people he mocked were the holier than thou religious folks. You see ridicule as love. Why don't you worry less about propping yourself up and focus more on the example that jesus set for you, if you are indeed such a shining example of him?
sure. Do a project for yourself. Pretend that you're the only person on this forum. Now take the last ten pages alone, and read ONLY YOUR POSTS. Now. Can you picture Jesus taking that way?
The only people that got the brunt of jesus' wrath were the people who claimed to be in tight with god. The people who were responsible for teaching and guiding others, and we're abusing that responsibility.
Do you fit into the category of kindness that jesus displayed to everyone else, or are you nothing but a modern day pharisee, thinking you know better than everyone and deriding those who disagree?
Jesus message is being lost in your method and mannerism, and I can't imagine that anyone would be swayed by your poor example
I am very glad that you feel you know about Jesus and his ways. It is true that Jesus was a wonderful man. Could he have been your friend? I mean he had to be a bit "insane" to any onlookers as yourself. Right??? Picture him in this conversation. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man shall come to the father but by me." What is your personal response to him??? Then how would he respond to that??? I'll give you a minute.
Hahaha - you "gave over your brain," alright. Maybe the main reason I stay talking with you is the little comedy that comes through now and then. But there is a serious side to your manner, Cgenaea, and I don't suppose there is anyone here qualified to make a diagnosis.
I am actually. And I know. But I wont tell
However, I have absolutely no qualms about anyone barring my conversation from them. I am not that sensitive. I understand. Serious I am. But I like to say it with funny laughing is my favorite hobby. Thats why all the smiles. Thanks for picking up on that.
Since there is no evidence of ANY Gods whatsoever, let alone, the Christian God, you have blindly given your mind to the backward thinking of long dead ignoramuses. In fact YOU are smarter than these ancient savages who wrote this childish nonsense, therefore you have launched an attack against your own intellect. Some people are too frightened to assert their own(real) thoughts, and simply take their place in the passenger seat, while allowing fear to drive them and their lives into delusion. FROZEN!
Please tell me you are not reading these comments again...
The anger is off putting.
Oh! And when my mans said Puella. I thought Cruella. I don't know Puella.
Yes, and I feel protected by God, too... and He uses others to help us too...there is nothing to fear!
For the Lord hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
Luk_10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
As I recall Jesus kind of dug into the smart scribes too. They were trying to correct his understanding right?
Nope. They were trying to maintain control of their people by claiming the only truth was the one they taught as true...and more importantly, they arrogantly held everyone-but themselves-to impossible standards of godliness. Jesus showed them-over and over and over again-that HIS people were more important than what his people SAID his rules were.
Why are you guys even trying? She doesn't want discussion, she wants to argue. Haven't you guys got that yet? You are being used by her to fulfill her needs. If you are fine being used as emotional self-gratification material, that's cool I guess. Just point it out though.
He corrected them then as they were attempting to bind the people with extra law without forgiveness and SELF check?
Yes. That's what I said. With more words, but the same essence. I think you generally appear to be more like them than like him.
Well Jesus did said something about remembering and DOING what HE commanded. He had a list. And he expected remembering and doing. Hmmmm... people seem to think that Jesus was a follower. He went along... no, that's wrong. He drew a line... he despised arrogance and knowledge over faith; hypocrisy above mercy; wise writers and teachers who added or took away from true adherence to the love intertwined into the law. Did he ever meetan nonbeliever while he was here? If so, how did he interact with them?
Your spin is so slick! Man, Genaea, you seriously missed your calling. You should have been a White House Press Secretary. You really are THAT good.
You cannot think of a time when Jesus met with a nonbeliever? Or you don't know how he responded to them? Or you don't wanna say???
I'm sure Jesus encountered nonbelievers. Off the top of my head, I don't have an instance prepared for discussion. But every documented interaction with Jesus left the person feeling loved, respected, and valuable-many for the first time in their lives. So far, I've never seen anyone come away from an interaction with you feeling that way-yet you claim to be doing just what Jesus did.
And what difference does it make whether someone is or isn't a believer? You are pretty consistent about treating us all the same way, regardless of our professed faith.
And-it changes nothing. You can spin-and you are WAY good at it. That's how you have yourself so convinced that you are always blameless and your behavior is always above reproach.
One can blame and reproach all he wants. I have yet to be proven a liar.
I wonder how the pharisee moneychangers felt running out of that temple...
I am not trying to prove you a liar. I just find your behavior and your words hypocritical. And I feel that you are mistaken in believing that behavior and those words to be godly.
And you know what the catch is here, Genaea? I'm a sister in Christ, so my observations about your behavior are perhaps something you should give serious consideration to. But you won't-because they are similar to observations made by some who don't believe and so you feel justified in insulting and dismissing me along with everyone else.
A sister in Christ... so what love have ye for me today, dear sister? I am saying what the bible says Jesus said, right??? You scold me? For standing firm on what the bible says about Christ? Our example? Who definitely would not entertain, "Gods SON??? What God?". Or don't you know? Do you believe the whole bible?
Do you not scold, mock, ridicule etc others? Why is it okay for you to do it, but not someone who shares your belief in Christ? Christians are supposed to exhort each other, and you have no problem pointing out the speck in your brothers eye while ignoring when people attempting to point out the plank in yours. Are you infallible? Are you perfect? Are you seeing yourself as equal to God like lucifer is claimed to have done? Do you not make summary judgements on believers and non believers alike, not in a way to help or assist them out of love, but to beat them over the head with your opinion and then rub their noses in it?
I believe that Jesus is God. Not just his enlightened son. I believe that the bible is inspired by God, compiled by men for a specific audience in a specific time. I believe that it contains multiple types if literature that include history, metaphor, instruction, and spiritual edification. I find it amusing that many BIBLE worshipers only take literally the things they like and call the rest metaphor-you
Know the parts they have trouble accepting. I often find that those people are rigid and unmoving and refuse to expose their broken hearts to God for any sort of healing. I find it so so sad that someone can stray so far from centuries of biblical teaching that they don't even really know WHO Jesus is, let alone what he came to do.
I'm not scolding you. I'm sharing my observations of your behavior and putting forth my observed opinion that it is not what you believe it to be. And I am not judging in any way. I've no stones to throw and I can barely see past the plank in my own eye to point out the speck in yours. I guess I just always hope that gentle reminders of what Jesus is like and what he would do are more valuable than anything else.
That was fun. Now, how do you believe Jesus would respond to you not believing the things he said in the bible? That is where we find him.
He said, "my father" many times when he was here.
Indeed-and I believe that if you read my words again, you will see that I said not JUST an enlightened son. I am a trinitarian Christian, Genaea. One God-three persons-Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
I was clarifying the mistaken statement that I believe the Bible lies. You indicated that was my belief when I said that Jesus was God-not just the enlightened son. I must have misunderstood somewhere. I thought I'd heard you state before that Jesus was not God, rather he was just one with him. Sorry for the miscommunication there.
I have no tension regarding your beliefs, Genaea, just your approach in presentin them.
Even having the belief that Jesus is not the literal son of God isn't a belief that the Bible lies. Just a different interpretation.
Ok so we seem to still be missing. Jesus is not God. God is the father part. Separate but same in spirit. I must've misread you somewhere.
Well I have no problem with your belief. That is God's business. I do not care for the way you "represent" either. Hmmmmm. So, if I am the only (and we know I'm not ) one in the room saying the same stuff; and others, bending and stretching all over the place...which road is biblically leading to God. I will give you a hint W I D E/narrow.
That's the thing though. Every single Christian will say that they're on the "narrow" road - and other Christians deride them and say that they're not "true" Christians because, of course, THEY are on the narrow road.
What makes your claim any different than any other? It's just a claim. As much as you can biblically back YOUR opinions, other believers can do the same, and (unless you're saying you're god) you're in NO position to judge/condemn/deride anyone else - let alone another believer who actually exemplifies the example of Christ in more than just their words - they do it with their life.
Did you ever tell me how you thought Jesus would respond to you telling him to his face that there is no evidence of his father??? I just gotta know!!! Pleeeeeeeze!!!
I think that if I told Jesus face to face that I questioned and doubted his existence because of the lack of evidence, based on the accounts of him in the New Testament, I imagine that he would laugh. I imagine that he would appeal to my intellect because (if god exists) he created me with a brain - and wouldn't punish me for using it. I imagine that he would treat me much like he treated doubting Thomas - and show me what was required so I could move forward with knowledge, not with blind, hopeful faith.
That's crazy talk!
Like he did with Thomas, you think Jesus might actually respect your doubts and reassure you?
I hope with all of my heart that you have encountered some of his followers who have done/tried to do that for you.
We're sorta supposed to do that when we can.
I think that Jesus would respect the fact that I want to believe as many true things as possible, and that I won't put my brain on a shelf just because I'm told to. I think that Jesus has an amazing sense of humor and justice, and that doubting is not something to be condemned, but intelligence is something to be proud of - especially if he/his father created intelligence.
To be honest, when I was struggling with my faith, there was no one there to calm/assure me. There was no one to walk me through it. I was pretty much alone, and many of the places I turned for answers gave me hell (literally...the smashing over the head fear of this place I was certain to go when I died for questioning).
Now days, I wouldn't even know where to start with the questions, so I don't ask. But I've got some wonderful friends who are as good of examples of Christ's love, grace and understanding that I could ask for, and if that's as close as I'm supposed to get, I'm okay with that.
That's a start.
If you ever want to, feel free to shoot me some questions. I'll be glad to answer as best I can. Not to change your mind or anything, but it might be nice to hear answers that don't come from an apologist.
you can count on it. I just don't even know where to start. I think my list of questions would be bigger than YOUR bible with 72 books, rather than the "superior" version with only 66. *smirks*
I am sorry to hear you encountered what seems to be some rough individuals that told you to put your brain on the shelf, or talked about hell a lot to you when you had questions. Unfortunately I have heard that more than once, even a few times from people and it is so sad. I think some people are afraid to ask themselves the toughest questions, so they fear it when others voice it too, maybe? Hard to know for sure, but I do truly believe God is the most fair, loving, and just being there is.
The good news is that we can rest in the fact that he will never be too lenient nor too harsh for he can judge from a point of view that no one else can even begin too. Since he is all knowing, and knows the true heart of every person, this can give us the reassurance needed when seeking the truth and knowledge about him and what he expects of us. I hope all of us continue to search for the truth and growing in knowledge in the same way. We also need not wait for a face to face encounter, and can pray to him anytime. Wishing you the best on your journey, and so glad you have some great friends, which is a true blessing.
Does someone ask of anyone they do not believe exists? Say... can I see your hole?
Thomas knew Jesus existed, he doubted that he could rise from the dead. Thomas's question like ours, would be: do you exist as a form of God rather than just a man.
Would Thomas have been around if he did not believe in all that Jesus said up until the point of his death? Would Thomas have been in the group if Jesus had to convince him that he was who he said he was? Would Thomas have wanted to follow a "delusional" insane person?
The disciples were hiding away and quiet, and severely and understandably discouraged after the death of Jesus. They couldn't believe or understand what had to just happen, what they just observed.
Their experience and then the empty tomb, and then their 180 turn around in demeanor and then what followed says scores more than any believers since that time. They were all very unique in that they KNEW for a fact, without a shadow of a doubt if he actually rose, if they could actually touch the scars, and ate with him on the beach and several hundred others. So when most went to their deaths for what they knew to be true, it was different from all martyrs since that time. They knew if they were dying for a lie or for the truth of his resurrection. It would have been so much easier to say that things just didn't work out, and now his body has disappeared, and there would be no reason to carry on with things to the point of imprisonment and death if not true.
Mentioning that makes sense to me. Many people gave their lives to proclaim what they knew.
oceansnsunsets you have my heart too. Your words are wise. I have not seen you long. But I have seen you strong. Thanks...
The disciples may have BELIEVED that it was true, and were willing to die for that belief, but that doesn't mean that it was ACTUALLY true. A lot of people die for lies. That doesn't mean that they know with certainty that it's a lie that they're dying for. For example, 9 Muslims crashed airplanes into buildings because they believed sincerely that it's what Allah wanted. Christians would consider belief in Allah to be a lie, but it doesn't mean that they don't believe it.
With all due respect, I think you maybe didn't fully read my post and why their deaths were so vastly different from every martyr since that time.
We don't have to believe it was actually true, but they actually knew he died and were living at the time, knew he was buried and where and saw an empty tomb and Jesus. This is a very powerful thing. So I kindly disagree with you that they were just believing like anyone else since that time. I hope this makes sense now?
Picture yourself in their shoes, having seen all you saw, then seeing the person and experiencing them again in a real, alive body, and then look at the 180 of their lives. It was experiential for them, not belief at all. I think this is purposeful from God's point of view for all of us to think through.
With respect, I have to disagree. All we have is the New Testament accounts which were written after the turn of the century that these things happened. Until then, it was all word of mouth, and word of mouth can be enhanced, changed, altered and exaggerated. We don't KNOW that any of it happened at all. The only thing we have to say that it did is the biased stories of people who wrote it down decades (at least) later.
We probably should leave the Muslims alone in regard to the crash. HOW were they ABLE to pull that off in one of the "most secure" sections of the world? They more than likely had some assistance. That was not about belief but the systems of this world. Allah is real, just misunderstood
You'd be amazed what people ask. And YOU posed the question about what she might ask Jesus.
Anyway, I ask all kinds of questions about all kinds of things. No other way to learn about anything.
I think the accounts like with Thomas and his doubts, that God is sending us all a great message, and that is partly why it is recorded. The bible does talk about us using our minds, which is a good reminder for all of us. It seems to be esteemed, and many might miss that. He may laugh, who knows?
We need to ask ourselves the big questions, like has he shown us what is required, has he shown how he handled people with doubts and questions? (I think of Abraham and God's discussion about the amount of good people left in the city before its destruction...God tolerated his concern and doubts and took time to answer...) To the sincere heart that seeks and prays for wisdom, God will give it. It is a promise in fact, which is really cool. I sincerely wish you the best on your journey, like I saw Cgenea (sp?) saying to someone else recently. She can be a great encourager to others in the short time I have been here to observe her. She is an incredibly strong and patient person as well, and I hope she doesn't mind my saying so.
When I was younger, 19 or so, I did not have belief. I was surrounded by people that were anti-god and who were degenerates and alcoholics who put down Christians and other human beings at every opportunity. I was lucky to eventually understand and know God. I became even more fortunate 30 years later to meet shining examples of Christianity like you and Cgenaea, who by far represent Jesus better than someone like me even though I had to grow up around the anti-christian degenerate alcoholics that I knew 30 years ago, but that's no excuse I guess.
Some may be unarguably fine examples of Christianity, but to claim behavior patterns displayed on this thread are representative of Jesus is kind of dragging his name through the mud.
By His Name do you mean YAWEH or YESHUA or a level of consciousness that transcends our understanding thingy?
I suppose the statement would apply to all of the above. Actually, that statement would apply to any attempt at a favorable comparison of these behavior patterns to anyone i have a shred of respect for.
Well all I have seen is a couple of three good examples of people fighting hard for their own beliefs and a dozen cheap shot artists. But thats just me because I grew up around hateful degenerate anti-Christians.
This must be one of those perspective things. Though I do agree with you as it relates to some of the people here, it doesn't apply to as many as you think and also it applies in reverse, but you aren't on the forums enough to fully get the whole picture.
I run across a lot of 'Woe is me' posts about how unkind professed, or non professed Christians were and how it negatively affected the individual. I'm not certain why their behavior patterns are used as justification for behavior patterns of an adult.
Unkind people are simply unkind, in your opinion. Bigots are just bigots , in your opinion. Degenerates are just degenerates , in your opinion. You place the labels because of your reaction to their behavior patterns. You've judged and found lacking. Had your behavior patterns (and all of ours, for that matter) been indicative of a cosmic scale the gospels would never have been written.
Everyone loves to quote those they consider wiser than themselves in presenting their arguments as to why they judge. Unfortunately, we begin with the faulty belief that we have the right to judge. We don't. Yet, we view behavior patterns which mimic our own favorably and cheer them on, as if group judgment somehow validates our judgment.
God is assumed to be responsible for his actions and reactions. Believers appear to think they aren't governed by the same rules, yet Jesus' teachings were clearly an attempt to explain that people are. A guy who only sat in judgment of those who thought they had the right to sit in judgment. The books are rife with examples of him accepting, lovingly, those outside of accepted ideas of acceptable. A guy who used scripture when teaching simply as a springboard to show how religion had driven the love out of religion.
Why do you think the term Christian never, when applied to anyone, mimics those behavior patterns? Why do Christians negatively judge others outside of their chosen sect? Christians condemn Christians, atheists, agnostics, homosexuals, yoga, Sponge Bob and/or anything and anyone they judge in a poor light. They do it through wielding scripture selectively. Ignoring any words that don't line up with their choice to judge. Sure. Everyone selectively presents information they believe supports their argument in order to negatively judge the actions, beliefs and thoughts of others but, is life 'monkey see, monkey do'? Can we, fairly, justify our behavior patterns by selectively presenting the words of others?
By negatively judging those who have hurt us by negatively judging us, how are we different from those we judge? By adopting a belief structure we think imparts upon us carte blanc right to negatively judge, how are we improved?
Every negative judgment made about anything under the sun moves us a step further away from personal cosmic reconciliation if you start with the premise that God so loved the world. As we use those judgments to build on (in order to make more judgments) we build the wall that separates us from others a little higher. We all do it. We complain about others doing it. We justify our actions while condemning those same actions in others. It's a mystery.
I am glad that you finally came to the point of expressing that we all do it. But the basic tenant of judgment should be what is right. And in this case righteous. There is a standard set forth by God, if you believe the bible. We know that if we are lying or sending anyone down a path further away from the standard set, we are in danger of judgment. So yes, we all do it. But what is our basis? What WE feel is right? Or what God has set as the bar??? I have read you send judgment and condemnation directly to God, as if...
I think there things in the bible that can be improved upon, so I don't hold it to be the standard. Time to give right and wrong some thought of your own. Is it right to own slaves? Is it right to beat slaves? Is it right to beat anyone? Is it right to tell a slave to be a good slave? Is genocide right?
Sure I do, Jesus was said to have said to follow the laws of the OT. In the past you yourself told me you think God had a hand in bringing African slaves to North America to make America a better place stronger place because those with white skin couldn't hand the cotton fields. It's something I will never forget.
I won't either.
"Let's take my brown skinned babies to MY country to help build then they may share in the plentiful" seems quite plausible. The sun can be dangerous for lighter skin. The needed labor was in the sun. Black and rigidly fit bodies were required. I think it makes sense. However, I cannot be positive that I am 100% certain that this occurred, it just seems likely to me.
So you are in favour of slavery as mentioned in the OT? I'm not and think it's appalling. I think we have better ethics.
Right, we are always learning and improving, but why use a book from thousands of years ago instead of your own thoughts?
Because it is the bar for Christians. No one has to adhere but heaven's gonna be empty.
Heaven is gonna be empty if we don't keep slaves or at the very least think slavery is acceptable? I suspect most Christians would agree with me on this one.
I think you are very much leaning to your own understanding. You may only guess the Father's thought. But you start at the wrong gate. 2+2 first. The spirit of God does not tell you to keep slaves. He spent a lot of time FREEING captives. Remember? Jesus's entire purpose had very much to do with the same idea. You are looking for diamonds in an Oreo box.
I think you are learning for your own understanding. I'd rather belief in an afterlife but logic as shown me that one doesn't exist. I don't guess at what the bible says at all. It describes what to do with slaves and what the slaves should do and the it says he freed some Hebrew slaves after years of slavery and then taught those slaves what to do with their own slaves. Sounds to me like a group of people making up their own rules and you listening to them.
Awfully low bar they have set for themselves. Perhaps that's why more and more people are finding the morals of Christians to be just plain unacceptable - the furor over gay marriage comes to mind...
It does seem that Christians are commonly drug along, kicking and screaming, as society continually raises their "moral bar" for them because they prefer the morals of a barbaric culture 3,000 years ago.
My, my, Dear Sir you do sound jealous! I am so glad that the world does not sit in your palm.
We are all human. We will be mindful of what right really is and we will gradually overcome our issues with that help. What hope is there for one who has his own bar today? We shall HOPE he woke up this morning with his coffee.
Which brings me to my main point, why must the two be mutually exclusive?
Does that mean you feel you are qualified to pick and chose which rules to live by. That would mean you are thinking, but Cgenaea claims we don't need to.
All I know is that God gave us brains and He fully expects us to use them. And that's Biblical.
Even if that thought lead us to think he doesn't exist?
Glad you think as opposed to those who don't.
Does using ones brain constitute believing in things that can't be shown to exist or using reason and logic?
That depends. Does it logically follow that simply because someone doesn't see something that it must therefor not exist?
If it is in undetectable in any way, yes, that is the idea. Once it become detectable, then it most likely exists. Simple logic.
Very good. I completely agree. Now, because one group of people are able to detect something and another group are not, which group is correct?
There's no such thing as one group detecting something and the other group not. If if can be detected, we would all know it, just like everything else in reality.
How do we detect someone elses intellect if its not easily discerned?
Edit: Or indeed evidence to the contrary?
That is actually patently false. Denying the existence of something (in this case, something that has been detected by one group of people but not another) is not the same as proving it doesn't exist.
Once again, there is no such thing as one group detecting something in the universe that exists, it would have to detected by all if it did actually exist. That is how things work.
Except when it isn't. During wartime, plenty of things are detected by one group (who have the tools to detect it) that aren't detectable by others, who either lack the tools or the will to see it. And history is replete with examples of undetected things that mowed down people who claimed that since they couldn't see it, it wasn't there.
An absolute statement like you made must be absolutely true absolutely all of the time, under any and all circumstances, or it is absolutely false. That's the nature of absolute. And your statement is not absolutely true 100% of the time.
Notice that you've moved the goalposts now and have added the statement, " who either lack the tools". Of course, if a scientist can detect a virus and I can't because I lack the tools to do so doesn't mean the same thing as one group detecting something and the other group not. The tools can easily be provided to that other group and they too will detect the virus.
Of course, that throws a monkey wrench into your argument, as you now have to show what tools one group lacks and the other does not for your claims?
You can make that claim, but without any valid examples, it is meaningless.
If I have moved the goalpost it was simply to reposition it back to where you kept trying to move it away from in the first place.
No monkey wrench.
But if you firmly believe that denying something is the same as proving it doesn't exist, be my guest.
You never said that in the first place. Again, please show us how one group can detect something and the other group cannot. I await your evidence.
I'd say a group of deaf can't detect a bird singing while hearing people can, but give those same deaf people the proper equipment and they will be able to detect the sound. I don't think Chis is claiming he has a special organ that believers do no, but Eric most certainly is.
Chris is actually claiming one group can detect things while another cannot, and I don't think he is using the example of the deaf or blind. This is ridiculous, of course, because if something exists, it would be detectable by both groups.
Christians detect Jesus, Muslims detect Allah. But neither group can detect the other groups god, while yet another group can detect neither.
Can we all detect gravity, an orange, the sun, the very computer sitting in front of us?
In what sense are you all talking about "detecting" here?
Detecting God. Some here are stating that the reason some don't detect God is because they lack something the others have.
Yes, and that is revelation, the act of God revealing Himself.
So why do you think God so actively moves to reveal himself to some and not others? Why are different gods revealed to different groups if there is in fact only one?
JMcFarland, there is definitely scripture answering those questions specifically. Reach back...please.
I'm asking Chris, since he brought it up. I actually respect his answers, his knowledge and his opinions. I know what YOUR answer would be, and it fits into none of those categories. thanks.
Well, at least with that post you see why you don't command any respect. Give it, to get it. Right?
Well, at least with that post we see why you don't command any respect. Give it, to get it. Eh?
Yeh. Commenting on rude behavior is rude. So, right back at you.
I've seen a lot of people - including you, in the post responded to me in - commenting on rude behavior. Does that make you just as rude as anyone else, then? If you're doing the same thing that you're calling out as rude behavior, what makes you any different?
why exactly should I offer any respect to someone who has compared me to a dog/pig and has no interest in any opinion but their own? She has certainly not showed any respect to others - and it works both ways.
I tried for a long while to treat her with the same respect that I would show to any other stranger. She didn't seem interested, and she's stated here several times that she's not out to be liked or respected. I treat her exactly the way she treats me. No more, no less - except I haven't been banned for calling her and others like her dogs.
I really don't care what she thinks of me, and I really don't care what you think of me either. So have at it.
Okee, dokee. Not sure if you noticed, but you just behaved in the exact same manner you are complaining about.
as did you, by pointing what you think is my bad behavior out :-)
No. Not quite. Genea really isn't here for discussion. She has been amply clear on that point. She thinks she's teaching. Which is why she doesn't care what you think, or how she comes across. She isn't really rude, when you think about it. She is simply here to push an opinion, however pointless that opinion is.
You don't like that. I get it. But, reacting with rudeness isn't really creating a tit for tat relationship. It's simply reacting. You are purposely being rude toward behavior that isn't purposely rude. You think you are mimicking that which offends you but, in all actuality you aren't.