If war, starvation, natural disasters, etc. then yes.
If the end of the world, Gabrielle trumpeting, folks floating into the air, certainly not. There is no reason to actually believe the biblical tale of Armageddon.
As long as I am looking up to it - no. Every year passess and every year is a disappointment. In case you get bored waiting - start a family.
Hold on I've got to channel into the spirit world…..
Some time in the future humans will no longer exist.
Sometime in the future...it will no longer be 2013...
On the way home from work, I will encounter a traffic accident.
In the future...we will all be older.
I know this, because I'm a time traveler. I travel forwards in time at a rate of 1 second per second.
I'm going to go out on a limb here an make a prediction.
I will buy pizza for dinner tonight. Then later (this part is still a bit fuzzy) I'll have heart burn and attempt to wash it back with large amount of beer. So let it be written, so let it be done.
Oh, and I won't be getting lucky, I'll try but nothing doing.
Me too! How weird! What an amazing coincidence
The Future NEVER arrives. It is the sacred, theoretical tool of these industries:
Religion; Journalism; Insurance; Preventative Medicine; Marketing; and numerous others you might wish to add here. They all depend on yours and my Fear to get us buying their wares.
Opt out of the fear and worry. Then apply your mental energy to remembering your mistakes of the past. Then work out strategies to avoid a repeat and plan for better moments of now in the future.
No one knows when that time will be, not even Christ himself. Only our Father in Heaven knows. Mark 13: 32..."But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
Just be ready... (in spirit, in good deeds, be prayerful, read the scriptures, smile a lot, be happy, and love lots and lots).
You must believe in multiple Gods then if you feel the Son does't know what the Father knows?
I suppose if you believe in one god who happens to suffer from Multiple Personality Disorder, you could potentially believe in a god that doesn't know something that it should know because it's omniscient...
...but that would be silly, wouldn't it?
not necessarily. Maybe the Bible god is schizophrenic. He was all slavery, genocide and anger in the Old Testament and sweet and cuddly in the new - Ironically (or not so much) as soon as his people were exposed to Babylonian mythology which emphasized resurrection, hell and salvation.
But wouldn't a mentally ill god not be perfect, as is often claimed by Christians?
Not under divine command theory, which says that anything God commands (slavery, genocide etc) is automatically good and above question.
Not to mention, a lot of god botherers claim that god is immaterial, meaning he doesn't have a brain--so how could we even begin to diagnose a mental disorder in something that doesn't have a brain? lol
(Also, divine command theory sounds like a trip wire landing them right in the Euthyphro Dilemma.)
God botherers??? Lol...
We cannot diagnose God. He doesn't think like we do (scripture)... how could he with no brain and all...?
There is no evidence that there is thought without a brain.
So how can you make any claim about how a god thinks if that god is without the faculty which allows thought? That's like saying that 60-foot tall invisible purple slugs without hands shake hands differently than we do--there's no evidence of said slugs, and said slugs also have no hands. It's a meaningless statement.
The bible said, "My thoughts are not your thoughts; nor my ways your ways" that was God speaking. I cannot fathom the face feet hands nor brain of God. But I believe in faith.
No, that wasn't god speaking, that was someone claiming that was what god said. If you can't understand the way your god thinks or operates, then you cannot make any claims about, say, the goodness of that god, or whether just believing will please it at all--for all you know, your god could be a trickster god who sends people who believe with blind faith to hell, and because you just admitted that you cannot begin to understand it, how can you make a categorical judgement to the contrary of what I just proposed?
But you must realize that in the last days the times will be full of danger. Men will become utterly self-centered, greedy for money, full of big words. They will be proud and contemptuous, without any regard for what their parents taught them. They will be utterly lacking in gratitude, purity and normal human affections. They will be men of unscrupulous speech and have no control of themselves. They will be passionate and unprincipled, treacherous, self-willed and conceited, loving all the time what gives them pleasure instead of loving God. They will maintain a facade of “religion”, but their conduct will deny its validity. You must keep clear of people like this.
6-9 From their number come those creatures who worm their way into people’s houses, and find easy prey in silly women with an exaggerated sense of sin and morbid cravings—who are always learning and yet never able to grasp the truth. These men are as much enemies to the truth as Jannes and Jambres were to Moses. Their minds are distorted, and they are traitors to the faith. But in the long run they won’t get far. Their folly will become as obvious to everybody as did that of Moses’ opponents. 2 Tim 2:1-5
Looks like there are quite a few out here...
That would certainly contradict the behavior you exhibited in the post I just responded to where you called us idiots and morons. Is that the kind of love your "Father in Heaven" teaches?
There is no way that this Armageddon will happen, it has been written to frighten people into submission and believe what they were being told to believe at that time. Anyhow it would be better that we do not believe in everything it is said in Revelation; otherwise God would be a very violent God and not a loving God. So forget about the end of the world the way it is written in the Bible
Violence may come from even loving human beings. How much more may the creator of the earth be violent? We have read about the ways he deals with sin which he calls worthy of death in the OT.
A creator? Just any old creator? Say, violent enough to send a dinosaur killer asteroid to modern earth.
We DO expect a little more restraint from a perfect god/creator that loves all mankind, though.
Doesn't matter what we expect if we are not in line with his will. He says via biblical scripts that sin=death and faith=life and Jesus will bust through clouds in a flash and calamity will ensue because the earth will shake from its foundation and the moon will change color the dead in Christ shall rise and we will be changed in a moment and we shall ALL behold him at the same time and every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord...or something like that.
He says, via the writings of a pack of ignorant liars, many things. Why we would be expected to shut down our god given brain and believe them is unknown.
Which God knows very well - we can conclude that either He doesn't want us to know His past, present or future, doesn't care one way or the other and thus won't make the effort to communicate His wants or simply isn't there.
Ya know...we WILL find out who the pack of ignorant liars are for sure.
God has communicated all that he wants us to know about how he wants us to live and we have a choice to take it or leave it. But I will not stand before him on that day with sorrow but glee. I believe he will return. I will be ready to meet him when he comes.
Oh, we already have found out. We already know that most of the outlandish tales have no connection to reality.
Well, His communication was kind of the point - He has made none. Without guidance (not lies, guidance) we cannot know what He wants and He knows that quite well. It will be very interesting to find out what His goals/objective actually is - for certain it is not to create a race of inferior creatures to keep Him company and worship Him as Christians claim.
You do not believe yourself inferior to God??? Oh! No wonder you do not want the guidance he has provided. You should write him a stern letter. That "faith" may get you some results. You may have to duck though but as his equal you should have nooooo problem there.
?? It is not possible to get any idea of whether I consider myself God's equal or not from that statement. Are you trying to lay false paths to avoid discussion of the knowledge base of biblical authors? To change the subject to something else? Comedy (this one is over my head, unfortunately)?
What are you trying to say?
- for certain it is not to create a race of inferior creatures to keep Him company and worship Him as Christians claim.
This was my reason for obviously wrongfully assuming that you didn't feel inferior to God. Forgive my error.
The biblical authors were dead on as far as I'm concerned. The petty argument over this word or that word is smoke puffs for the sake of cloudiness.
As you know, I am saying that we have the bible for instruction. We may pick at it until we ride our pigs over the moon; but if not the bible... what???
We need a God that shows us how to be good by being good himself and in Revelation he is even more violent than in the OT, so, if one follows what you believe is right, then one can only assume that we are all rebels. For the betterment of all humanity, we need an example from God how to be good and this is not only our God Yahweh but also the god of our brothers Allah, which seems even more violent than Yahweh; well at least this is how we humans say our God is like? Here I would like to add that I would not be surprised, if it turns out that God is more loving that the ways we describe Him.
There are no words to describe just how loving he is. I don't believe it to be quite humanly fathomable. We get a glimpse via his son Jesus. Allah is the God of Ishmael Abraham's son. And Isa (my Jesus) is also depicted in his story. Same God. More vicious and more loving than any of us can imagine. Jesus is our example of how to be good. God gave instruction. He followed with warning.
Adam and Eve didn't listen. Their action changed their world immediately. Death to them and their children, until...
Today we have instruction and warning.
No, I don't. I think who ever rewrote that book, just put that in there to make people fear. Fear is not of God. God is only love, as people discover, after they have passed on.
God doesn't do anything horrible to anyone. People do horrible things to themselves. God would not be God if he had vengeance in His heart. The Bible is flawed with lies that make people fear. And, as already said, fear is NOT of God. It's only meant to keep people in line, by other people who want power.
If we could all see that, then the "truths" in the Bible would be obvious.
Depending on what you mean by Armageddon, and depending on the level of God's patience with humanity (which seems to me to be super ultra oober patient, beyond all I can believe considering all things looking back over history till now), maybe so.
Have you heard of the term, Moral Velocitization? It is kind of what we are observing in the world, I think, currently. If I understand it correctly, things are going downhill quickly (morally) , like a snowball effect. The quicker the decline, the quicker the moral collapse.
At some point, the level of depravity will get so bad, and the hatred of all things good and true will grow, that there will be no turning back and the bible says God will give people over to their desires at some point. It will be like a moral decline that I think will get so bad, that there will be no room in the hearts and souls of mankind to even care about a possible God and what he requires from his creation. Evil will have to be answered, and a good God will oblige....
Hopefully, that degree of things will be far off. It depends on how much humanity sits back (like they are currently) and lets evil run rampant. For now, I think there are enough praying people left that care, that much evil is being held at bay. When the light leaves, when the people praying are gone for whatever reason or stop, I think the darkness will envelop crazy fast. Evil, darkness without the light to keep it at bay, is a very dark thing indeed. Ok, off my soapbox, lol, and interesting question!
Oh, and one more thing, the biggest thing I notice in the world today that really makes me question in a bigger sense what is going on with humans, is that they are self sabotaging and willing to lose their freedoms like never before. At a time in history when humans can see what has worked well for freedom for humanity, and what kills the same freedoms, it makes NO sense that we are voting and living in ways and supporting things that will kill our own possible freedoms!
It is like humans are embracing things that are ludicrous and futile even if they know it will hurt them. It makes no sense. I am quickly losing faith in humanity when I simply turn on the news, and see the sides people are taking the reasoning given for doing so. It is actually mind boggling to me.
If you are speaking of morality, in relation to the failings we are experiencing today, then I feel the lead needs to come from the population of the United States of America. Out of your country comes some of the most blatant immoral activity you could ever imagine. And I am not referring to anything relating to sexuality.
My attention is drawn to gross excess in various areas of everyday life, e.g., Eating to excess, bordering on gluttony; running business, large and small, with complete disregard for the needs of the poorer members of society, as if the "little people" of the world are only there by their own fault; manufacturing rubbish and passing it off as good wholesome food; lying about your life, painting it as moral when it clearly ain't; remaining ignorant of other parts of the world, as though your own country is the most, if not the only, important consideration. Also, in many cases a complete disregard for the needs of "Mother Earth," when millions of tons of artificial fertilisers are put in the ground to poison it and everything that lives therein/thereon. I could go on. Much of the examples stated above are perpetrated by respected, upstanding members of society. Here's the crunch:
Maybe the worst aspect is being unable to see, let alone admit, your faults. If there is anything clearly required of the christian ethic, it is being honest. Try it, you might find some enlightenment.
Forget Armageddon. We don't need it, just a return to down-to-earth good sense.
Good question pamij, As you surely now know, asking or stating anything Christian will bring all the anti-Christian kooks out of the woodwork to attack your beliefs or you personally. You are a brave individual to do so.
I do believe in the Bible prophecies of God, as the one who does know the beginning and end of all things! Many of these prophecies have already been fulfilled, such as Daniel's explicit prophecies of the world powers and most of the ones concerning Jesus' first coming. We probably will see Armageddon in our lifetimes, if we live through the tribulations coming on the world, as we see the beginning of those things being fulfilled now.
Things such as the world war against the state of Israel by a coalition of radical Arab nations as depicted in Psalm 83. Persecution of Jews and Christians by radical Muslims and others is gaining momentum, as Christians are now the most persecuted minority in the world. The stage is set for a world wide plague, war, famine, NWO dictatorship and the mark of the beast.
Personally, I don't believe that a "pre-tribulation rapture" is scriptural and would point to Matt. 24 and Rev. 19 to back up this belief. If Christians are already gone, what Christians are being killed by the anti-Christ?
As for all the nay sayers and atheists, they can believe whatever they want, but they should keep their opinions to themselves since they have no understanding of the things to come. When they are reading the Bible, they don't understand it because they are reading someone else's mail, thus the loss at understanding. May God's face shine upon you and bless you, as well as those unbelievers that are stirred up enough by this to honestly seek the truth.
Good thing this forum is full of loving Christians who would never dream of personally attacking "anti-Christian kooks".
Good thing this forum has no Christian kooks to stir up the unbelievers.
Good thoughts. But I want to ask about the pre trib rapture. I have considered it feasible because there will be some people left here who are getting a final chance to do things right. More persecution and blood running through the streets and destruction all around as some form of payment (for lack of a better term) for not getting it the first time. The absence of the mark makes things exponentially worse.
Not that attitudes on this matter will make or break a follower; I just want to know what you think if not too much of a imposition. Maybe I should've read your scriptures first but, ok I'm going to do that in a sec
I believe that the Second Coming of Christ, and all the events and things associated with it (the 3rd Temple, the Tribulation, the Rapture, Armageddon, etc.) is something we shall see in our lifetime...say within the next 5 to 20 years.
In every context of the word, Armageddon translates to mean New Beginning, not the destruction of the world. It has been mistranslated for centuries. As with every generation, since the first resurrection (note Rev 20.5b) men will continue to exist and die because they are scared to accept their true nature -as exemplified by Joshua Ben Joseph, aka Moshiach- and experience complete regeneration and fluidity with Creator. Until then, they will live and die by the sword of Reason, based on their scientific or sensational beliefs...
There is no 2nd coming prophecy, as there is no longer anything to prophecy, for he fulfilled both the rules of law and the prophecies. He was the last of all prophets. There is no great tribulation noted to occur, nor Rapture. The third temple is the resurrected body " where [he] has his dwelling place forever." The new heaven-earth is the regenerated human, in body brain and spirit.
I think only those who have rejected God, and not the concept of God like accepts, will witness Armageddon. When I mean rejected, I mean purposely spurning his holiness. I also don't think those who are left behind will always have their free will. It is possible that then man will be merged with machine. It's called transhumanism. It's very possible that it could happen in our life-time.
I shiver in my shoes, not from the thought of retribution but that now we have two illogical proponents here in the forum.
I don't reject "god's holiness." Why? Because I do not know what that is supposed to be. I am still waiting for those who preach/teach such theoretical mind control to show me, in their own lives, what is meant by "holiness."
Don't tell me. Show me.
I didn't say you rejected God's holiness. You just don't know so how can you reject Him? You've rejected the concept of God. That is not the same as rejecting God knowing He exists and therefore His holiness.
No one can prove their personal experiences to anyone else. If you are looking for empirical evidence, you will not find it.
I'm not certain anyone rejects the concept of God. Especially not Johnny. I think most reject ideas presented by others. God is a big word with as many variations as there have been people born throughout history.
From what I've observed those who argue against God appear to have accepted a definition they find abhorrent and reject that definition. They are either unwilling or unable to envision other ideas. Whose fault then is it when they shut themselves off from open discussion? Who, ultimately, bears the blame?
If the idea disappears from our collective psyche it will be the fault of the religious who dogmatically argue in defense of stands which throw a negative light on the subject. Those who insist we see God as a trickster. A maleficent. An entity whose sole purpose appears to be to create discord on this level of existence.
As I have several times, I reject the concept of a judgmental god of the sort put forward by religious people. He, She or It has no semblance of holiness as far as I can see.
Jumping in here...
I personally am thankful for a God that will one day judge. I am equally thankful for a society where there are (generally good) judges so people don't get away with harming others continually. It would be a horrible society to live in, otherwise. The God of the Bible is the most perfect kind of judge there could ever be, as he is all knowing. That he added in a way to be pardoned and took the penalty to do it, is just a kind and loving extra thing to do. An all knowing God that knows the heart of every person, is neither too lenient nor too harsh, and no human judge can say the same.
Just giving the view of even a judgmental God from the Bible...from the view of Jesus who clarified some of the areas of disagreement. Good judges that societies need to live in peace and freedom, still have some of the biggest enemies, but the reasons for that are explained by something else usually. Just interchanging the ideas of earthly courts and a more eternal/cosmic (for lack of better words) to show that we don't sometimes dislike what we are thinking we dislike, if that makes any sense.
It's the other way round, your God is far too harsh compared with a human judge. No human judge would send someone to burn for an eternity just because they didn't worship him.
Sounds like the mind of a human "judge" to me...
On further thought it must be boring judging people when he knows the future and knows happens before people are even born.
Yes, he knows. He don't orchestrate it. He just knows how we will DECIDE (the operative word) to orchestrate. See???
Then why judge if the future is predetermined?
How the heck is predetermined a term for how we orchestrate? You believe yourself to be a puppet???
Of course; if everything you think or do is predetermined then you are nothing but a puppet for the fingers and strings of time. That time is inanimate and without intelligence does not preclude it being a puppet master, pulling your strings every moment.
We decide our own actions and reactions. Life deals good and bad to all. How we react makes the difference.
Sure we do but the fact that you think God already knows what we do negates a different decision.
Did you ever play Make Me Laugh?
If so, do your opponents make you laugh because they know you will not be able to resist? Or were you good at the game?
Duh...what's your response??? Do they MAKE you laugh because they just know that you will? Or do you choose (good at the game)?
I don't even know what game you are talking about. You go from a serious conversation to meaningless chatter in two seconds.
Meaningless??? Well I never...!!!
Ok, real life...
See oceansnsunsets response. You do not make someone commit a crime simply because you know it will happen. If that were the case, Bait Car would never get airtime or Cops, or hooker stings. You just know some fool will come along and...
You can in fact be charged with accessory to a crime if you don't attempt to prevent it.
Well that lets God off your hook. He tries everyday to prevent...
He tries to prevent murder and yet there is murder, so he fails often.
Proof positive that he is no puppet master. thank you. Our will for our lives outweighs his will. He allows us to choose.
Again, you make no sense at all. This is why I pay you no attention.
YET GOD.....BEING OMNISCIENT.....KNOWS THE EXACT CHOICE WE ARE GOING TO MAKE.
What's the sense in allowing us to choose, when God already knows what choice we are going to make? Prove to us that your logic is not absurd.
How ridiculous. LOL. An OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT God who has to TRY. Do you ever think about just how utterly absurd that would be?
If it is as you say and God knows the future then the future is predetermined. It's as simple as that.
Predestination. At birth your every action and thought is predestined, and that most certainly includes your ultimate destiny. Whether you sign with angels or burn with demons is set even before birth. You cannot change it.
So...might as well be merry and have fun, eh? Nothing matters anyway - the end result of an omniscient god.
We're here for a good time, not a long time, so have a good time the sun can't shine everyday.
Predetermined by who? Please don't say the flying spaghetti monster.
Do you mean predetermined by the one true God?
Predetermined by anything. By anyone. By a god, by nature.
It makes zero difference who or what did the predetermining; if your life is predetermined then you cannot make any choices, by definition.
Doesn't it sound different than saying, "he predicts" not predetermines? There is a difference. I bet MW will tell us.
You can only orchestrate according to a set of predetermined odjectives. You cannot have one without the other!
Or being controlled by a really mean figment of imagination???
Well what are you waiting on. Jump on under the blanket!
Would you just jump under the blankets with a woman, just to experiment?
For me to experiment with someone just to see if I liked it would be, for me, the height of immorality. It would involve using another person for my own ends. I know my desires, what attracts me. I do not indulge that fantasy if there is no mutual attraction. I prefer to tread the moral ground and settle for friendship as the sustainable and beautiful alternative. This should be the goal for heterosexual people too. So you see, to talk about promiscuity here is right out of place and irrelevant.
I refuse to experiment in something which is against my nature.
I meant the blanket of protection that Jesus provided.
And uh experimental sex is not what I am suggesting. I mean that since God made us and he knows us well, he already knows our struggle. He wants us to know it too. He knows what we like. He takes homosexuals (and they who are promiscuous). He wants to hear your heart say what he says. Truth is paramount. It frees us.
Judging people that break laws isn't about curing boredom, and if it was, many judges would stop doing it. I imagine people are often bored to tears in courtrooms across the world, at times. My point is, it isn't about being boring for God or not.
Having a God that isn't all knowing wouldn't really be any God at all. He doesn't use his all knowing ways against us. Think on this for a minute. Say you heard and others heard about a crime that was going to happen. Does it in any way mean you are at fault when the person chooses to carry it out? That wouldn't make sense. It wouldn't make sense to take away their free will either to commit crimes or do good deeds. The knowing of it doesn't implicate, and the suggestion of taking away free will wouldn't be a good thing either. The criminal chooses to commit crime almost 100% of the time, and if he was forced, then there is a responsibility on more than the criminal. A good judge, judging crimes, is still a better thing than not. If we are honest, none of us would want to really live in a society that was any other way.
Notice that in most societies we are not judged by the bibles standards. If we were we would be killing homosexual and women found to not be a virgin on their wedding day. A person stealing a bag of chips would have the same judgement as a murderer.
If I am aware a crime will take place and don't act to prevent it I'm as guilty as the person committing the crime and can be charged accordingly. The description you give to your God has knowledge but doesn't prevent the crime making him guilty as well.
You so often give blatant disregard to the teaching of Jesus about how we are to treat each other. Do you "glaze over" while reading my comments?
Yes because you are impossible to have a serious conversation with. Some of are here to learn from each other, but you are not one of those people. You have no understanding of those that don't believe nor do you wish to understand.
The bible tells me all about people who do not believe. I can usually spot them from miles away. I understand them fine. However none of them may understand me. It is written. Is that predetermined? Hellllll no. We have to decide; and as you and many others here know, we can always just change our minds...
I am not talking about particular societies, and noticed you pulled out the most evil kind you could, lol. I am talking about societies that have rules, so there is freedom for all, and judges to put away criminals. I am asking people to consider why we like good judges for societies on the one hand, but don't on the other hand. That doesn't make sense.
If you heard about a bank robbery about to go down, or heard about a news story that a ransom was happening and the threat was carried out, you would not be guilty when it happened. Not for just having the foreknowledge of it. That wouldn't even make sense. Think of on a bigger scale, news stories. We hear about things about to happen all the time. You would never accuse the people of knowing of it, of being guilty for the crimes. My point is to point out these inconsistencies in our thinking, when it happens to be with an authority we disagree with. This is nothing new.
In fairness, with your argument about God being guilty as well, you are seeming to support an idea of a God that does not allow for free will. It would have to be the case for your argument to stand. I disagree with the idea that there is a creator that ought to have created us to be robots, so we don't have to answer for our crimes or wrongdoings. So we disagree.
One last point, in a greater and cosmic sense, we do have to answer to whatever is the reason for our being here and actually LIVE in their world with their rules. Just another way to think about it.
Sure like judges who would cast someone to burn in hell for eternity for being born gay.
A person can be charged with accessory to a crime by simply failing to report the crime to proper authority. If you know someone will murder someone the right thing to do would be to report the crime to the proper authority to prevent a murder for the sake the person about to be murdered and so as not to be charged with accessory to the murder.
Would that be your defence for watching a murder take place and not attempting to prevent it, you didn't want to take the murderers free will from them? You'd be charged with accessory to the murder and rightly so.
What do you think that reason is?
I was born a liar. but one day...I realized how tiring the remembering and the planning and the execution and the guilty feeling...
The vow to myself for the sake of my stress level was to be honest.
Don't ever forget: we are born into sin. It takes a renewing of mind; a shedding of self; an agreement with what is right to ever hope to transform into the will of God inside the fortress.
You assume I want and think as you do. I know right from wrong already, I don't need what you need to be good.
Prove it. Or better yet, provide me with some evidence please.
The proof is that almost EVERYTHING that you have said here, and other forums....is not backed up by any FACTS. And almost none of your assertions are based on HONEST objective reality.
LIE: 1. To present false information with the intention of deceiving.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.
v. lied, ly·ing (lng), lies
Um...you were supposed to provide evidence of my lie; not definitions again.
Exhibit A: This forum provides enough evidence to support dishonesty on a most egregious level. In fact, it's hard to find any evidence of truth in any of your posts.
More dishonesty. Your assertions have been proven to contradict the laws of nature. And are direct contradictions to the most basic of logic that you and I have to use, on a daily basis, to survive.
You have a choice to be a liar or not. I have no choice not to be homosexual. For me this not a sin and you would make the world's worst judge.
That's why I do no judging.
I had a choice to become/ not become homosexual once. Now maybe i'm not fair to compare against; when the opportunity struck, my desire for the girlies was nil. So, I had to work on promiscuity. Now that, I liked. But God walked me through it with mercy and compassion.
Being a homosexual is not the same as just choosing to experiment.
So, then, it wasn't a choice. You did not come from a neutral standpoint. You were already hetero.
Yep. The same God who raped and impregnated a virgin, who just happened to already be married. Just the kind of morals we need to help us through immorality.
Choosing not to be homosexual is the thing. I can imagine that it is hard for some and in some cases extremely; but God knows that. The bible listed it as wrong in the Lord's eyes (not mine). Have it my way...well you know... but sex has guidelines. Not because I say so. Everyone has an issue with something. Truth is what makes us free. We cannot dodge God or ignore what he said; his truth stands. He has enough grace for us all. But truth is important enough to align to. If only mentally at first. The shame drove me crazy. Until I understood him. It took me about a year to finally get out of "bed" and dry out. I gave him an entire year with a decision to sit out and focus. It was a simple process after all. The agony was short-lived. He did what I could not.
Cgenaea, you have absolutely no knowledge of this matter. Everything you have written so far has been your suppositions determined by your religious background, and your beliefs. So I suggest you go and educate yourself thoroughly (Like reading "The Bonobo and the Atheist," or read the Hub by Hanavee),
You have said you don't judge people, so that's ok. You will therefore allow me and others similar to myself to go about our lives unjudged. Thank you. And since you are not "god" you will have no power over our lives. That is such a relief.
PS - You said earlier that you were born a liar. Are you absolutely sure you have made a significant change? It must be virtually impossible if you were born that way.
Oh, I never meant to stress you. Just truth. I had to realize for myself; lying is wrong; and stressful. Promiscuity is the same stressful. Once I thought about it correctly, all stress was gone. The burden lifted.
You and others like you will always remain UNjudged by me. I am too busy with my own stuff. But the truth is only right. Some of my very dearly beloved are gay.
Sure, tell him you don't judge him and the judge him. Do you think we can't see through that? Hiding homophobia behind the bible is still homophobia. Did jonny say be needed a burden lifted?
Where is the me judging him statement located. As far as my burden being lifted; that was my testimony not for jonny but for me. If he does not feel burdened by homosexuality then he has no burden. I wont give him one.
Here is the latest one. Notice the BUT…
You are judging when you tell him the truth is only right. It was an I don't judge but...
Cgenaea consistently does not understand the truth of her statements. She cannot see the contradictions.
(Must be off to bed now, it's almost 1000pm. I am going to India on Thursday, might not connect with the forum so often for a couple of weeks.
There are no contradictions jonny. For me, the bible is what's right. And that is not true for everyone. Even some Christians find it shady so I'm learning. Though I have sins that I currently deal with, I will not deny the truth of scripture even if to soothe my own conscience. Anyone that goes against it to tell you a soothing lie is in danger. Now if you do not subscribe to the teaching of the bible but of man...do what thou wilt. No argument from me. I speak bible.
You speak bible? In other words you speak Bronze Age goat herder.
Since the Bible was also written by MEN, it makes absolutely no sense to separate its teachings from the teachings of MAN. But, of course, you will refute that....because it is a FACT. You can't stand facts.
And you see nothing outside of the bible can contradict it? Not even good sensible reasoning? Your posts are often full of reasoning which is far from sensible.
You usually revert to this bible stance whenever you are unable to offer more logical and rational answers.
I'm logical; and rational; I do not have have a problem with sensible (on Tuesday nights )
Lots of things attempt to contradict it. Man mainly. But I have lived this way for years. And it's better. So much better. Now I know it does not work for you. Are you ok with that? I am. This life just does not suit everyone.
Then why would He make people homosexual? That's like breaking someone's leg than telling them they walk funny....and that they need to walk straight. Unconscionable!
Correction: A crazy book, written by ignorant ancient goat herders, listed it as wrong. You are merely an indoctrinated person, who has nothing but fear, therefore you will agree with anything they wrote. How frightening!
But because ignorant primitives set guidelines, and pretended it to be straight from the mouth of the Creator of the universe. Yep. You are definitely on the right track.
Yet science has disproven many of these "TRUTHS" and freed us from the tyranny of this ignorant backward concept that is your God.
As with any addiction, it was you who beat the addiction, not an imaginary character in a 2000 year old fairy tale. Sorry you feel the need to insert yourself into a childish fairy tale in order to triumph over an obsession.
Sure we can. Once you understand that no God exist you stop judging other and calling them sinners and hiding behind the bible. telling someone to stop being gay is like telling someone to stop being straight. Grow up.
That's grace to you? Telling someone to change not only their sexual practices but their orientation?
Sex is worth little. It seems like such a little thing to step away from God for.
...in all thy ways, acknowledge him; and he will direct thy path.
Did you hear'em say all???
You don't have to step away from God so that you can do what you want guilt free. I've been faithfully married for almost 25 years with no help or threats from any God. You can simply keep your opinions to yourself regarding homophobia or understand that judging others and telling them how to live their lives is wrong.
In addition, while I am blissfully married and wouldn't cheat on my husband for the world -religion or not- I will say that I am still bi-sexual. Being in an exclusive relationship with a man has not made me NOT bi-sexual. If I never touched another woman for the rest of my life, I would die being bi-sexual.
Abstinence does not cure homosexuality.
Don't worry about it, there are plenty of seats by the fire for you to join us when God judges that transgression.
Actually, it appears with the number of Christians violating God's will by passing judgement, that will be standing room only.
What's funny is that according to God's law there are two types of sins, "moral sins" (second tablet of the commandment types of sins) that are sins against others and sins against God (first tablet types of sins). Judging others is a sin against God. Homosexuality is a moral sin (if it is a sin at all-which is a matter of debate for those who actually study the Bible and understand it). Guess which one God dislikes more?
The abomination, of course. All trees and their fruits are apparent to all. God's children are taught to spot the nots for safety reasons. We must be able to know who to ask.
What sin is is judged by biblical text. Not the reporter of said TEXT. The reporter of what God says is blessed. The reporter of what feels good to sin is not.
Not me. It comes from the bible. we must give credit where due.
2Ti_4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.
A very timely, and fitting one too. A great reminder. I like the surrounding ones here too for more context.
19 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; 20 for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. 21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. 25 But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.
26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless. 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
Yes, I love the whole passage. My faith is strongly defined by it. My faith, again, is largely works based... so a gentle reminder to shut up, get off your butt and do something useful is always appreciated.
Whew! I'm floored. (Grateful to always be supplied with the true message at the right time) Amazing stuff.
You people (you know who you are) are really good at that proper dividing stuff.
Perfect timing as usual.
Yes!!!!! I KNEW you'd come around!!! I didn't even know you knew that one at all.
Here is a little more context too, It is interesting. 2 Timothy 4:1-5
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound[a] teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
Spoken to a group people how many hundreds of years ago? In what circumstances? In what cultural context?
When you have sorted out every shortcoming in your own life then you might have some cause to worry about others.
Your bible-bashing does not benefit anyone.
Spoken to God's children for all generations. His word never changes. We may be sure that it is accurate always.
And aint nobody worrying about your life. Just reporting; regurgitating; remembering what thus says the Lord. He is magnificent. He always carries the heavy of our woes. He understands everything about us. He knows how we operate. We may take him all our cares. He carries them well.
I will save that seat for someone else. Blessed assurance.
I prefer to observe a Code of Practice in relation to sexual relationships.
If either of the two parties involved is in any way, and to the slightest degree, unhappy about "doing it," DON'T DO IT! If either one of you does not feel comfortable and it goes ahead, then the entire experience will just not be worth it. You will regret it, because it did not turn out as you expected.
Worse, you will probably find the friendship that was there in the first place begins to break down. Your relationship will have changed. Where there was once fun and joy at being together, now it will have lost its life and beauty.
This I suggest applies to whatever intimate relationship you like to imagine. It is not based on any kind of religiously biased premise. Just down-to-earth practical sense. You might care to teach your children this. It is based upon being aware of the "other person's" needs as well as your own, and it is part of living in successful community.
Maybe this is related to the Discussion Title: The End of Time Prophesy. No sure how, think it through for yourself.
I agree whole heartedly and have explained that to my children. Usually when to people get married who haven't yet had sex they should be looking forward to it and not much time passes before the encounter happens. I know this first hand.
And of course they will experiment..... I understand that. There will be mutual agreement to experiment, hopefully. Yet still the principle remains..... don't "use or abuse" the other person for your own satisfaction only.
I guess you need the "SPIRIT" then it makes perfect sense.
Here is the SPIRIT:
Now pretend this Bloody Mary is a Virgin Mary.
That is so wrong... on so many levels.
Really, so many levels.
Mel, can you and I have a few words on the quiet? Just to get it right about these two boys? (Sorry, two people!)
*grins* I've been trying to sneak you away in private for years.
In that vein, do you facebook?
I did try Facebook some time back, but it frightens me..... worried that I will press wrong buttons or inadvertently allow too much information to become public knowledge.
Some people find it suits them, but not me.... sorry, Mel.
Oh, it's not for everybody. The privacy thing never really bothered me because 1. I don't do anything in my life that anyone would care about and 2. No one would ever want to steal my identity, trust me, they'd give it back.
But your reasons are valid.
There is some confusion about that. Mary and Joseph were betrothed-not yet married. When it speaks of Joseph divorcing her quietly, it speaks to them breaking the engagement without a big to do-since an official betrothal would have been a done deal in their community.
if that makes sense.... ....not wishing to appear rude, but to me it doesn't, because I see humans taking on that role of judge in the name of an imaginary god that suits their preconceived ideas.
I am not sure how the ideas I presented don't make sense, as I am speaking of ideas here about judges and and overall final judge (need not be the Christian God or a god at all, just an ultimate judge.) I don't see how humans can take on that role of judge of a God like that. If you are inserting your own worldview (assume you are because you say imaginary God that suits their preconceived ideas..) then of course it wouldn't make sense. I was not talking about that though. You were originally talking about the God of the bible and I was running with that.
If nothing else, I would have to ask about one final thing based on what you said. If there is no God, then no problem being judged by him ultimately, and no human can judge you like that either. Even if people had preconceived ideas about a god that suits them, that doesn't apply here with what I was saying. I was pointing out the ideas themselves and the inconsistencies when we apply what we all know and agree with to one judge over the universe. I shouldn't have put that last in, LOL. It distracted from my points. I don't think humans can judge like that, and certainly ought to not try to. We can't do such things, like judge souls and punish or give pardon or forgiveness on that level that I am speaking about. So no worries there.
You are unable to answer that question yourself?!!
The imaginary one espoused by Cgenaea, presumably your self and many other people of like mind. The one you want me to "believe in," a peculiar christian term.
Such a god seems to have nothing connected to an awesome, beautiful, sometimes frightening and mysterious physical world that you choose to ignore and abuse/neglect. - PS - in favour of creating fear and emotional bullying.
It's a leading question, Johnny. I want to know what your idea of a judgmental God is. How does God create fear and emotional bullying?
There is no god that is judgmental! Humans do it using the god they believe in to back up their phobia and ignorance.
Of course there is. The god you have created in your mind may not be - it may be kind, loving, generous, caring and all the other traits we admire, but the one created by most Christians is not.
That god is a liar, cruel, vicious, childish, murderous, hateful and yes, judgmental. The bigger question is why anyone would create such a creature to worship?
No phobias here. I have a very blunted sense of fear. Comes from walking with a king who has slayed a many of dragons right before my eyes. I love gay people. I love divorcees, I love liars (seems I've REALLY loved liars), I love gossips, I love strippers, I love murderers...etc. They are all just like me!
The bible tells us what is right. If we do not at the very least agree with what is right, there is no hope of living this life.
The bible did tell people a few thousand years ago what the rules were. And you are still living by those rules rather than using your own brain.
What do you think is judgmental in what Christians believe is God?
Nothing. He just mad that they say exactly what the bible says. And it hurts a little.
I just noticed that the people who have turned away from a foundation in the church are gay. Wtf??? I guess I don't really have to ask why. For some, it IS better to deny it all rather than deal with guilty feelings all day every day. The other admittedly gay have found very creative ways to include themselves into Gods kingdom guilt free. Change the meaning of some things and switch some other things around a bit. But it's a trick. God does not change. What was wrong 2000 years or so ago is wrong today. Changing God is strictly forbidden.
The church did mess the babies up jonny. "This man stands on the corner downtown Chicago with a microphone preaching and yellIng to passersby, "Ya goin' na hell fa smokin' dem ciga-ritz!!!" He stops whatever his sermon is for the day to inform the smokers of their demise. I was furious! Not only was I smoking a cigarette; I had heard him stop to say that to about three people within a 5min span. They use the clean temple scripture to justify that statement. But your temple is not located in your lungs, fyi... the body is the temple and should remain unspoilt by filthy and or carnal thinking. From the way I understand it; God does not live in flesh. To dust it shall return.
The church and their rules and their shunning has really catapulted a falling away of God's people. And yes, it is holy pride; against God in every way.
To be gay may not necessarily be sin for some per se... (let the cannonballs fire ) The Lord handles us according to our own faith. He looks at the heart. He has enough grace. He loves like a dad. He WILL NOT turn you away or EVER leave you because you struggle in an area. I think homosexual activity is spotlighted because it is a lifestyle practiced daily. But so is infidelity, fornication, idolatry and the like.
Spirit and TRUTH. We must know the truth to be made free. Wrong is wrong but we ALL have some somewhere. God can handle all our issues.
Yes.....And then there is actually the REAL world.
Reality??? That's all u got???
Ok ok ok! Can you help us understand what REAL actually is? If it's not God making the rules who is??? You??? Me??? Emile??? Which one of us decides what REAL is?
Are you serious? Reality decides what is real, not any particular individual, group or religion.
Take your fist and hit yourself upside the head, that would be something that is real.
The Bible is just a book of words, and although the book and the words written there are real, what the words describe are not.
A choice we all must make. I believe it; so it is real to me. But it's not real to you. See? We have different realities.
No, you do NOT have different realities. You both live in the same reality, as do I and everyone else in the world.
What you DO have is a different perception of what reality is. You with imagination, creativity and a strong desire to live forever under the arms of a father figure, I with a need for truth and fact. You make up your perception to match what you wish it were, I try my best to figure out what is regardless of whether I'm happy with the result or not.
Truth and fact??? How do you know what truth is? "FACTS" change all the time. Our perceptions differ at different times of the month. It does not matter one iota WHAT is real to others. What is REAL in your OWN eyes is what sticks, Sir. What is REALLY real? What can be COUNTED upon??? Your "FACTS" are sometimes real for a minute or two. You have errors factored into your "FACTS" Sir. It's constantly changing and rearranging and mistaking fact for fiction at a regular pace. Now, when you ask me, the really old book that is tried and approved by many; that does not change (shut up different translations, adders, and subtractors ) and gives a message like no other (shut up you know who you are ) It's a keeper. ALL ELSE is simply false. Now, it is MY reality! And I'm sticking to it.
Translate it however you want. God looks at tthe heart. Buttered naked! Lol...
Now this is applied to everything you have ever quoted on this forum, so we can discount your opinions totally. Never again tell me, or anyone else, what "the Bible says" to be "true." You have dug your own grave of credibility.
Ah...the play of words. Let us not forget that we have different definitions.
Or, more precisely, you make up definitions when it suits you.
Few, in any others do. Most of what you write is gibberish.
I already understand the cryptic nature oftgthe words I speak. I thought I told you. Sorry.
You may not understand what I am saying SIMPLY because you decide not to. You have the majick slippers in your pocket Dorothy.
No, we share the same reality. No gods have ever been shown in our reality. If you believe you are living in another reality, that would be the one you've created for yourself which you alone reside.
Your indoctrination is so rigid that it causes you to assume too many pre-suppositions. Try getting rid of all the pre-suppositions, FIRST, then, ask yourself these same questions. Please don't just blow this off. Try it. You will see that you have imposed concepts, upon your psyche, that are irrelevant in discerning an objective answer.
Your psyche is irrelevant!!!
You may heckle all you want. My position is firm. Yours??? Do you have a position?
What kind of reply is that? I simply asked you to do a simple task, and you get DEFENSIVE!!! Did I disturb your illusion? Are you afraid that if you follow through with the exercise....you won't be able to handle the cognitive dissonance? You assert that your position is firm, yet you get angry when the foundation is being ripped from it. That's because the foundation supporting your position is an outright fraud, and it's frightening to face that glaring fact. You have proven that.
Don't you know ANY nice words???
The dissonance is maddening, I know. But I am not the sufferer.
I will never try anything you suggest. No offense I just know that you cannot help me.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Further on down in verse 10 of James 1 it says,
"Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him."
Even for the longest of lives lived on this beautiful planet, I have learned that those are really so fast. It comes and goes So fast. Pure Gold and Diamonds.... they don't just get like that. Lots of fire, purifying, and pressure, over and over, lol.
Just to clarify, that is verse 12 of James chapter 1.
Yesssss... he tries us right? He allows us to walk into fire. And he goes with us. Magnificence beyond compare. I am greatly indebted. I mean gratefully so
A fair point. A relativistic morality where everyone makes their own rules isn't logical. Yet we all have morals, and we know truth exists. We can certainly at least know that there are some rules that are not grounded in the fact that we make them up. Those wouldn't be rules or real morals, but preferences and opinions which can also change.
Even if we push the ideas we want that aren't good ideas or logical, we will see a break down eventually, kind of like we are seeing in our world and the US.
Yet, that is exactly how our societies have formed, through people making their own rules, it's called 'secularism' and you most likely live in that society.
Our societies are not breaking down because of secularism, quite the opposite.
I don't think you two are saying the same thing. The relativistic morality oceansnsunsets referred to would be more of an anarchy. In a very real and strict sense, we do not make our own rules. Whether you are more inclined to agree with modern rules or more antiquated ones, the fact is that societies adapt but few "make their own rules."
Most societies DO make their own rules (I can only think of one or two examples where they wouldn't). Most individuals within the society do not. Those rules tend to be social norm based. If most people think something is wrong, it is then made "illegal" if most people think something is right, it is legal.
Almost all societies work on public opinion, whether they are democracies or not. Those with laws that go against societal norms don't last long.
Yeah, tell me about it. They only gave Jesus a few years.
But he did make clear that his ways were not based in the sway of popular opinion; but the will of his father. Not too many people "liked" that truth. You know what happens next.
Yep, thousands of years of rules based on the norms of societies composed mainly of Christians.
Not really. It's actually a pretty good indicator of what the majority of Christians accept/believe. It kind of has to be. So unless you are judging that most Christians aren't real Christians, then Scotsman doesn't matter.
If you are judging that most Christians aren't real Christians but you are, then that tends to reflect more on your position than theirs. After all, you would be the odd man out and therefore it would likely be you that wasn't the real Christian.
But the bible says that the Christian IS usually the odd man out. Are you familiar?
Out of society, which at the time was true, not out of Christianity. Jesus was quite clear on that, Christians are a family, brothers and sisters, there is no odd man out. Those who try to make there be one are making a judgement that no one but God has the ability to make.
Then there would be no reason for allowing the "kid" to know, "You aint no better than me. They persecuted me; they'll persecute you." No need to say, "many are called, bit few chosen"
Or, "narrow is the gate "kid"
Godly thinking is an acquired taste. It's a lil bitter at first. But gets sweeter.
I don't understand. Could you rephrase your answer please?
Who is the Kid?
Oh, and I've never found Jesus' words bitter. I'm not exactly sure why anyone would.
The kid in my scenario was the one who goes to God, as such. He was being given revelation by Jesus himself. Why would he say those things if most people would agree with what he said?
The Bible was written at a time where most people weren't Christians. Most people still aren't. I'm not saying not REAL Christians, I'm saying other faiths or none. Jews were the predominate religion in the area, which was two faiths believing in the same God in different ways.
It wasn't written as a division against those within the same faith. It was written to show a minority that they are on the right track.
So the bible isn't living? And speaking to all generations at all times til the end of the earth as we know it. Well what do we have to ensure we are on track? Our own understanding?
The bible is indeed speaking to all generations... Not everyone is a Christian are they? That gate is still narrow. That gate, of course, being Christ.
To be Christian is to have found that gate... so how could it be meaning Christians? Jesus never said that one Christian was better than another. I'm curious as to how you have reached your interpretation. Do you have any supporting scripture that is directly related?
As an aside, to get some deeper insight to who that passage was directed it, would it help you to know that the Jewish were very particular about their road building. Their roads were indeed very wide and the gates were exceedingly narrow. It was a curiosity of architecture particular to them. No other of the known civilizations constructed roadways like that.
Not everyone who claims Christ staus is even remotely concerned about him or what he said. They want to make it mystical and broad. Jesus was not giving a layout of the city he lived in. He knew that they would understand what he meant if he gave them a practical example. The spirit of God knows exactly what gate he was referring to; and there is no mistaking I am the way... very small opening. Remember what I said, he said. Tell it to all.
When we give to others the impression that MANY people, WHATEVER their mindset are part of God's kingdom, we err. Christ was a servant, yes. But he was not passive. He spoke truth only. He requires that of us. "Come to me my way" he said.
I still don't see Bible verses to back that up Cgenaea.
I do know that Isiah 35 also talks about the road to heaven. It says that it is for followers of Christ. He says that not even a fool could err once they are on it.
Could you tell me how you think that contrasts with Matthew 7:13-14?
I mean I understand what you are saying, I just don't know where you are pulling it from Biblically? I've never seen any verses that I would interpret as one Christian being more of a Christian than another.
Whenever the Bible mentions a path or road, and it happens several times in the Bible, it is always a road that Christians are on but those of other faiths aren't. It never says that some Christians won't be on that road, just those who aren't Christian.
I didn't think that an architectural layout was being given btw, it was reference to the Jews about something uniquely Jewish. It wasn't admonishing those already faithful, the statement was trying to convert those who were not.
Strengthen the feeble hands, steady the knees that give way; 4 say to those with fearful hearts, “Be strong, do not fear; your God will come, he will come with vengeance; with divine retribution he will come to save you.”And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness; it will be for those who walk on that Way. The unclean will not journey on it; wicked fools will not go about on it. 9 No lion will be there, nor any ravenous beast; they will not be found there. But only the redeemed will walk there, 10 and those the Lord has rescued will return.
This scripture seems to be speaking in terms of being spiritual healing for those who are sin-sick in their souls. Not band-aids and gauze; but "bread".
The scripture then speaks about those who are and are not on that road. It says he came to rescue (seems like that "kid" is in trouble. Possibly that persecution Jesus spoke about.) So it stands to reason that that "kid" is not at "happy" hour with good friends, good music, and drinks all around.
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
This scripture speaks about the way to life eternally. The way Jesus taught. Not many people choose this way because people laugh at you and growl at you when you speak like Jesus did. He said they would. He was right. Not many choose God's way. They like the broad road (where anything goes as long as you're happy, everyone's belly is full, and you visit some people). Jesus had a standard. "This is the way, follow me." He knows that not everything works towards Godly thinking. It's not on the road that is huge with people having a grand ole time. It's focus on him. "If you love me, keep my commands."
Humility is important too. People here really brag about what they do, who they are, what they've learned. They place high value in self. Jesus gave his life for those who were dying, spiritually. He taught them the truth. Those who believe him are safe. He had one way; one mind. Few people trust it.
I'm sorry, I still don't see anything there about one Christian being more Christian than another. I see lots of stuff about not being a Christian at all.
Nothing about full bellies or levels of education or friends, music or drink. It's just not there. I'm sorry. The scripture doesn't say anything about it.
The KJV says:
"And a highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for others: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein."
As long as you follow God, you are on that path. No matter what kind of fool you are, you cannot leave that path. You cannot lose your way.
That seems to put us all pretty much on the same footing.
And of course, Christ is also the gate. Which makes sense and aligns perfectly.
I've also got to ask, just out of curiosity, which version of the Bible you are using, because no version I could find had the same wording as yours. There is quite a bit of difference in the meaning of your version and what the ones I'm finding are saying.
KJV cites the passage as:
4Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
5Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
7And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
8And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
9No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:
10And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
Ok, we may try to reason this out.
I'd really like to start at the idea that we seem to be using different materials and that could lead to ambiguity. So using the KJV, I will interpret using all that I know about the entire book.
For further clarity, the statement concerning what "stands to reason" was interpretation. The person in this scripture is being rescued. So again, it does not seem as if he/she is having a marvelous time eating, drinking, and being merry on this narrow road. In light of Jesus' s warning that one will be persecuted (along his narrow path) just like him. "They" didn't want to hear his message. Most did not join him. And since we have already established that the bible speaks to all generations; we know that the statement is true today.
Most will turn away from the true message in an effort to feel "prideful" for all that they do FOR Jesus. One thing Jesus was not is prideful. Though he knew his own position as king, he came in rags. And he borrowed a donkey to ride in on.
He depended solely on God for all his provisions. He did not do his work unaided. He did not bolster himself; but God. People on his path do as he did.
He also said, "Let those children come to me; the kingdom of heaven is made up of people like them." Not the smart know-it-all with everything already figured already. The prideful stand in God's face with a bill. "Ha ha ha Lord, I'm better than them, and I see it, i hope you're taking note of all my ACTIONS, cuz I'm DOIN' it right!!!" (This is scripture)
Jesus implies (to all generations) that God prefers the one who comes in humility; head bowed down and in need of mercy and help. The prideful "deserve" his provisions. The humble know better. But as I am sure you feel, in light of your views, that it is somewhat beneath you to be on the meek and humble "road" begging and pleading some "god" that wants you to stand up and be proud (of what, I do not know) and smart.
God said, "where were you when I put it all together?" (and PREDETERMINED what you need to do to be mine). Parentheses mine to make another biblical point. The road is narrow. The way is the way of Jesus. He rebukes washing out the outside of the glass while the inside needs washing.
It's not what you look like on the outside. It's has to do with the health and right mind toward the things of God.
I hope this helps.
Oh! As for the not being able to err... even a fool (walking THIS road) will do well. But he must first be walking the one narrow path that Jesus laid out that not many people like.
Well, I still am not seeing verses to back that up. Could I see those please? Because every single verse I've read those roads are Christianity vs. other religions. They are calls to bring people to the faith that are outside the faith. I'm just not seeing verses that imply otherwise. If you show me a verse that says that some that have faith in Christ and do his works haven't found that gate, I'll concede, of course. But I've read the Bible several times and I've never found a verse like that.
Just as an aside, when you say that you are sure what my views are and how I feel, that's being judgmental... Unless you can also provide me with verses that say what my views and feelings are, I'm not sure how you can claim that's biblical. Can you explain how it is, biblical I mean? I'd hate to accuse you of being judgmental mistakenly.
But I'm glad that we agree that only the prideful say they are better Christians than others. That was the main point of contention. I've said all along that claiming that one is a true Christian while another is not is against Christ's teachings. It's cool that we've finally reached an agreement on that.
Good foundation we've laid. Pride is against God. We agree. I thought I remembered you saying that there is no need to "slither around on your belly begging and pleading" it seemed as if your basic point was that our "pitiful" display of "nothingness" was just pitiful and God would never expect that from such wonderful creatures he made. Jesus (I think, or somebody else) spoke a parable about a prideful man (with seemingly the same prideful idea) who prayed a prayer about "gratefully" being one who just knows he is IN because he DID all the right stuff. Then there was a lowly man who prayed with sorrow and fear. Luke 18:9 Guess whose prayer was more acceptable.
As for your other point, we may not bring anyone to the faith if we have no idea what the faith is all about. Visiting and volunteering are godly, but only one form of godliness (Google form of godliness). It LOOKS good on paper, but it's just action. As I have already biblically proven ACTS alone are not the faith. That is why there will be people on that last day who will say, "But Lord, didn't we DO all manner of DEEDS for you???" And he will say, "Depart from me, I knew you not..." this proves that some "who DO his WORKS" (or so they think) have NOT found the gate. The bible also states that not all who cry Lord are his.
It is the bible that judges; not I. I am still learning and being humble and realizing I have a long way to go for perfection. The Lord allows me to stay mindful of that. I speak what the bible speaks; not me. I still fall short. But I know truth. Truth is important. We MUST know where the line was drawn.
"Train up a child in the way that he should go. And when he is old, he will not depart from it." Please allow me to say with that; it means that he will not forget it. He may go WAAAAAYYY away from it (as we have seen) but he will not forget. Ask GIR...
Oh, OK. I see the problem... which is not biblical at all. You believe that humble means debasing and humiliating. I'm also not familiar with any verses that say that.
As a matter of fact, you aren't providing any verses at all. I'm slightly vexed at that. You say you speak Bible, but I see none forthcoming.
I also don't understand why you keep bringing up that it requires both faith and works. Most Christians do both. I know I do. I just don't understand why you are so down on doing works. Is there a verse for that?
Again, I'm still looking for the verses that say what you are saying. I'm not finding them.
To make it easier...
Which verse says that one Christian is better than another?
Which verse says that we have to debase ourselves for Christ to accept us? (Humility means something different that believing that we are insects)
Which verse says that you don't need to feed the hungry and cloth the poor? I seem to remember Jesus saying specifically that we DO need to do that.
Which verse, again, says what I think and what my views are?
Which verse says that it is OK to judge another Christian's beliefs as incorrect?
You say you speak the bible only, yet I can't find any of this in the Bible, in any version. I don't mean to doubt your word that it's in there, just asking for the verses so I can also read it.
Did you totally disregard Luke 18:9???
"Train up a child..."???
The bible does say that it's not work alone. Did you totally disregard, "Depart from me..." ??? He said that to the "workers" but he called their works something else.
Don't be vexed at my biblical response. Just read...
Oh, Luke 18:9. That's the one where Pharisee is rebuked because he believed that by showing over-devoutness to ritual he was more holy than publican. That is an example of one Christian (Well Jew actually) believing he was a "true Christian (Jew)" because of his overt and over-theatrical piousness and being rebuked for it. To me, that would be proof that it ISN'T OK to judge another Christian's beliefs as incorrect. Are you sure that was the verse that you were looking for?
I'm not sure what Proverbs 22:6 has to do with the conversation. Please explain.
I am aware that the Bible says that BOTH works and faith are needed. I'm not understanding where you are finding that it says that both aren't needed. I have read passages that have said that one without the other is useless. I'm not quite understanding where the ones that say you don't need to do works are? Please point it out.
I'm not vexed about seeing biblical responses, I'm vexed about not seeing them. Biblical responses would include verses that back up what you are saying. To be honest, I'm seeing you say that some Christians are better than others, that you don't need to do works to follow Jesus and that you know the views and opinions of another Christian and know that they are wrong, and that it's OK to judge that.
I would be interested in seeing the verses to back that up, because those statements seem directly in opposition to everything I've ever read in the Bible. So, again, please give those verses.
Prideful is wrong. That is my point. When I heard you refer to humility as "slithering on your belly" not being required by God; it sort of threw me. My point for bringing up Luke 18:9 was that the "prideful" man's prayer was not as acceptable to God. He said Lord I do and I do and I do, that man does NOTHING but slither around waiting for you while I'm DOING.
Christ was not about "doing" he wanted freedom for the people to know what wasright Iinstead of listening to the doers who were busy "working" themselves into heaven the WRONG way.
The proverbs scripture was about another thing I HEARD you say that goes against biblical teaching.
Not really, I'm sorry you misunderstood. I referred to someone saying that we are insects as slithering around on one's belly. That's not humility. The publican was not displaying insect behavior. And yes, there was pride, pride of considering one's self more devout than another. Again, this verse seems to say that believing oneself true in faith but another less so is prideful. Again, are you SURE this was the verse you were looking for?
I'm not sure I ever made a statement concerning Proverbs 22:6. Perhaps you can show me the one you judged to be unbiblical?
I'm also not sure where in the Bible that Christ wasn't about "doing". It seems like he spent quite a bit of time feeding the hungry and healing the sick. Could you provide the verses where it says he doesn't want Christians to do such?
I keep asking for verses, yet I'm not getting them. I have to wonder why.
LOL Yeah, we make our own rules. That deserves a "duh"
A society that chooses rules to govern the people within it are one thing. The way CGenaea was using the term was in a different way, or else I wouldn't have answered it the way I did at all. She meant it in the way it was being used in its context, of people, each of us, making up our own rules. You answered that post in a way that was if a different point was being discussed.
I guess slavery wasn't wrong 2000 years ago, so it's not wrong today. Neither was wife beating, and wife/daughter/child murder, etc. And that's just for minor offenses like not being a virgin on wedding day, or cursing parents.
Correction: If we didn't change "God" we would still be burning innocent women alive, stoning homosexuals, and adulterers, and believing that the Earth was flat.
I guess it's perfectly ok for you to interpret the Bible just to suit your own needs. How hypocritical.
There is no way to define how a dad loves, as different dads love differently, and some don't love their kids at all, therefore it is whimsical wishful thinking, brought on by daddy issues. Ergo...your version, according to your desires/needs.
Right and wrong is not for you, and certainly not for any ancient holy book, to spout... as it is clear that you are using the wrong source to discern anything.
Now that was a mouthful GIR...
You definitely will NOT believe anything I say. no problem...
I am solidly stuck in the thing you so adamantly label sickness. And I am starting to believe we are having mutual feelings on the matter. I hope you don't mind.
I'm just sorry to see what this disease has done to you. That's why I adamantly believe that religious indoctrination should be forbidden, before a child can grasp the concept of critical thinking. Being a minister's son, I was probably exposed to a lot more of the virus than you were. Fortunately for me, I have a very strong immune system.....against bulls---!
I wish there was something better than this life, and that it lasts forever, as we are all inherently apprehensive of death . But I would want to have REAL salvation....not false hope....from a God that is a complete and unbearable monster. One that we have to trick ourselves into "interpreting" as GOOD...when we can clearly see the monstrosity! No one would really want to spend eternity with something like that. I don't want to pretend that I do....just because of fear. I believe in reason, not fear. Thus, I am free to actually think INTELLIGENTLY and REASONABLY, instead of the abject nonsense that SOMEBODY ELSE WANTS to extort me(by fear and empty hope) to think.
Yep. Don't bother to respect the debate. Just make up your own rules.
This is not a debate. It's clarity. You understand me. And I understand you. Well, you never did say what was Solid in your mind. Now, you may scream REALITY until your face gets stuck like that... but that tells me NOT what you consider real.
Is it Spidey for real??? I thought I was just joking.
Jesus was no monster. He ought to be the one all ideas are passed through. It gives a clearer picture. Anyone can take things that happened in the OT during times of war, sometimes commanded by God for those particular people and time, and make them think that to follow God you have to support such things. Look at the example of Jesus though, he clarifies many misconceptions, and showed in some of his own responses the personality and nature of God. He wasn't at odd with his Father. Looking at all sides and angles seems an intelligent thing to do. And reasonable.
Maybe he clarifies some things and maybe he fogs them over in an attempt to hide the evil of his father. Certainly the personality and nature of the god of the OT was not show in the person of Jesus.
My point really was to point out how easy it would be to judge God by the way he instructed the Israelites in times of battle (the stories often lamented about), over how he shows himself to be through his actual revelation of himself through Jesus. Jesus came later, we are closer to those events and those that witnessed them and carried the teachings on, where the Old Testament is a history and descriptive of their times so often.
If one were to say, "want" God to be a moral monster for some other personal reason, it would be easy to do but not fair. For example, I could say, "I could never worship a God that commanded them to kill & plunder sometimes after conquering a city!" When the truth really is that God is never ever commanding any of us to do that to any city, and Jesus showed quite the opposite in dealing with our actual enemies encountered in day to day living. I am suggesting its a trick to make people feel like they are morally superior somehow to God by NOT following him. It would be the very same God that gave them life, gave morality, revealed himself and gives the means of pardoning so we don't have to continue to die forever. He leaves it up to us to choose what is most reasonable considering all things. You have to be careful to who you listen to anymore, AND consider even a best friends reasoning or lack of reasoning in their arguments.
Just like I stated before: God is a complete and unbearable monster. One that we have to trick ourselves into "interpreting" as GOOD....thereby, confirming rigid INDOCTRINATION. This post here is exhibit-A.
Or we have to trick ourselves into seeing God as BAD and harrassing his bodyparts everyday.
And the irrelevant absurdities just keep rolling. But I'm just laughing WITH you.
Actually, what I observe here in the forums does confirm something to me. No other worldview makes sense of it but one, and that would be Christianity. I know what you meant though, confirming nothing by going through the exercise, to the person doing it. I think it is meant to be a clue of its own to people that would see it.... would even want to see it. So an evidence, just another one to me.
I meant to add on the possible cover up of Jesus for his possibly "evil father". First of all, if it was a matter of just covering up, the writers could have written history as many winners of history do and cover up the "bad stuff", including the PR cover up for a supposedly evil God. They left it, purposefully... and the NT writers and recorders/transcribers also didn't take out stuff. On to Jesus... well he had some rather harsh messages of his own, and wasn't afraid to talk about the hereafter. He didn't suggest doing away with the past, but meant to be the fulfillment of the point of it all. He might have been about a cover up, but then he would be evil and to what end? Does it make sense he would go to the cros for his "evil" Father who came up with a plan to restore a lost humanity to himself and to have relationship, and showed the means to do so? This doesn't sound like an evil God that is about restoring life by dealing with the sin that takes life... The crimes are against him, he judges in his court, and comes up with a plan that he didn't have to, to save that which was lost.
Doesn't sound evil, yet there is evil and we all see or hear about it every day. True evil would likely have this idea distorted to the point people felt like they were better for the rejecting of it. Someone said that would happen too...
Really, every day? Odd, I don't hear evil every day. And, when I do hear about something that has happened where it appears someone did something evil, it is usually a rare event, considering there are billions of people on the planet doing all kinds of things. In other words, evil appears to not be consistent everywhere all the time, but instead an extremely tiny occurrence.
Yeah, I do, that was the point I was making.
Ok, so you are saying that you do not see or hear about evil everyday???
Nickelodeon news? Have you ever heard of Romper Room? It was a show when I was a kid.
No, I don't. And, when I do, it is few and far between when compared to the billions of people doing many things every day.
Yes, there are is very serious evil happening every day, and its hard for me to believe that this was the point out of all that I made in that post to respond to and have an issue with. The point was, that we know there is evil, it exists. Evil can make people that normally champion ideas like reason, reasonableness, and morality side against the same. We see the idea play out in movies and books all the time. Sometimes people are just downright sociopaths, or something similar. The saddest tragedies almost are the ones that carried out evil that thought they were doing good, only to find out and uncover the truth later. Or something finally opens their eyes to it. They often wouldn't have done what they did if they had known. You know this can happen, and that was the idea. The topic of evil was to point out it indeed exists and is powerful to destroy lives as we see every day.
An extremely tiny occurrence? I totally disagree. If you could only watch the individual news stories playing out on all the local stations across the planet, or in their newspapers. Add to that all the unknowns that happen behind closed doors or that don't make the news? Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying?
Movies and books are not usually reality, they are often fictionalized entertainment. For example, we can take Star Wars and Lord of the Rings as showing great evil existing such that the entire galaxy (or Middle Earth) were in jeopardy. of being ruled by evil.
Are you trying to compare this to our world? Not even remotely close, right?
Sure, sometime some people are downright sociopaths, but is that because they have some mental disorders they can't control? There are plenty of studies coming out linking these disorders to high states of religiosity and we see people doing bad thing in the name of their gods.
Again, powerful evil? Every day? Not likely.
Okay, let's look at that. First of all, there are around 7 billion people on the planet and each day they do a lot of things. Some of them, as you say, do evil things. How many are there doing evil things that are powerful and destroying lives? A billion? A million? Maybe a hundred thousand? One thousand? One hundred?
We could probably count these events as being less than one hundred a day, yes? When compared with 7 billion people doing many things every day, that is indeed a very tiny minority, wouldn't you agree?
What about the FLOOD?
Sorry, but you can interpret anything that you want to, it's still just dishonesty, The reality is that you believe this nonsense, simply because you WANT to.....out of blind obedience. REASONABLE?!!! This is downright insulting to people's intelligence.
Hey...! You gotta let the people decide what's downright insulting to their own darn intelligence!! lolrotfnstuff...
NOW you are showing your true colours, Cgenaea. Keep going, don't stop. Show us your real reason for being here.
All this time you have been hiding behind a facade of a nice, clean, clear-headed, spiritual person. Yet we now see you as an arrogant, ugly-minded person that is anything but christ-like in your attitude.
You have never made me angry.
But you have a sick mind and that makes me sad and worried..... about the lives of others you try to change when you have no moral right to change them.
You have had 2500 posts here on this discussion, giving you lots of stage-time to spout your nonsense......and it has prooved nothing except that you are not worth having a serious, kindly discussion with.
I really suspect that all this time you have really been a wolf in sheep's clothing
Now you know...
First of all, I have played like no NOTHIN! I have often told you of my shortcomings jonny. You heard "change" and not once did I try to change anything or anyone. Just laying facts as I seeyum.
You heard change... did I say that???
And yet clearly, from the attitude you convey when you write, you would have me "change" from what I am.
You cannot face your own truths.
This is about truth. Nothing else. Truth is hard to face when you are afraid of it.
But then Jesus came... He let onevin even though he knew one was gay. He asked for your heart despite your flaws (because that aint the only one). Truth. Humility. Faith. Hey! It's a formula that adds up to salvation.
My flaws are way fn worse . He knows that I can never do it without Him. He wants me to know too.
Maybe you should drop whatever worldview you have like a bad habit and consider Cgenaea's?
No thanks.... her world view is anything but encompassing of the awe and wonder of our world and, from my view, it is steeped in stubborn narrow-mindedness.
I have listened to what she has to say, but find it empty in many cases, contradictory in others and argumentative quite often.
If you find her points of view interesting and similar to your own, I respect that. Your choice, your journey.
However, I regard your assessment of my "world view" as a "bad habit" slightly insulting. But then again, it is your right to hold that opinion.
You find the term "bad habit" insulting? Yet you wrote
you as an arrogant, ugly-minded person " .."you have a sick mind
Yes, if it was taken as insulting, so be it.... she/you must be able to look into what I said and consider if it is true, just as I have to consider if what you say is true. And for me, what was slightly insulting I can take happily. I don't retract it, either.
Oh stop...! Aint nobody trying to scare you. I told you that if you have faith, you can run right up to the Lord and get all that he has for you (love, joy, peace...) no matter what the church deacon says; it is not that that goes into a man that makes him unclean. It's the JUNK coming out. If your output considers God, you are clean. Even when you mess up. Your heart must lean toward him. He knows when it does.
No one has it mastered jonny. We all fall short. But we cannot proudly wave it in his face. He does not like gay "pride" just like he does not like lie pride or murderous pride or whore pride. Humility is key. Faith enough to say, "ok, it's getting too hard. I got this issue; and I know it is not pleasing to you. Please help" and just like that...the cover surrounds you and you become protected because of the faith to hand him your issues. His correction may hurt a little from time to time; but he never turns away from any of his own. He WILL leave the 99 to tend to the one caught in a ditch. I know.
Yes, more of the same bs. Notice she always talks about he and him? Never mentions the female. God must be male of her own design.
It suggests you have other gremlins in that closet of yours, Cgenaea.
Maybe I am doing the same.... ok. I will remove that post if Cgenaea will lay off the offensive opinions regarding homosexual orientation.
jonny-knowing Rad the way I do, I'm fairly certain he meant to support your comment and was speaking in regard to some of the things Genaea was saying.
I have NEVER known you to express a single, solitary cowardly ANYTHING!
Thanks Mo, I guessed that but was not sure. Also I am driven by Cgenaea's state of mind..... she is often not speaking totally rational. Sometimes I feel there is a deliberate attempt to stir the pot of argument, just for the fun of it.
Then at other times she seems to be writing as though it's a serious, but erroneous, opinion.
so, on the one hand I warm to her needs, on the other I stand to correct her most strongly.
I find myself at a loss with Cgenaea. I can be accused of many things, but not of a lack of compassion. I find myself often at odds with her, though, because I believe that her words do not speak the story she actually wants to tell. She dislikes me and my approach, and I don't care for the way she "uses" scripture. We try periodically to find common ground, but other than both believing in God, we aren't usually successful.
Sometimes, I believe that her heart is in the right place, but not well anchored.
Someone in HP obviously does not like the way I write or what I say, because they have dropped me from 5 to 4. Nice to know I'm making a splash!
Sorry Jonny, that was not directed at you at all. You are extremely brave and honest in my opinion. She in my opinion is offensive and attempt to hide it behind her bible which is cowardly.
Forgive me. I have no opinion about same-sex accept the one given by the bible. I don't care who $ who. Got my own worries. But in conversation such as the dreaded homosexuality debate; the bible says it's wrong. Abominable even. That's true in its truest form. The bible says it's wrong. No amount of feeling about it may change that. But it will not send you to hell if your heart belongs to God. First thing's first...faith in him and what HE said.
It Does Not! Period.
It is human beings who want to say it is wrong who read into the bible what they want it to say...
That is not a christ-like thing to do, it is lying.
I will not read nor read into it for you. You must. If it does not say that to you then do what thou wilt. You are accountable to God alone. Again, I haven't heaven nor hell. God sees your heart. He knows what you know and more. I feel that the bible says he don't like it in a couple of places. But hey...
Don't you see that the problem is that...despite your superior moral reasoning....YOU STILL AGREE WITH THE BULLY? Out of sheer blind fear. You have to challenge the bully, and that takes courage. Something that fearful followers don't have.
Have you ever considered that the bible is wrong and was written to control people much like a constitution. It was written durning a time that people thought women were barely human and most of the laws only apply to men. You are doing nothing but spreading hatred based on the thoughts of people thousands of years ago.
Have you considered that perhaps if there is a God he included misleading information to test the morals of people? To see if they would know right from wrong there selves.
You would be able to make a stronger argument if you will willing to consider other points of view. Otherwise all you are left with is: I am right because I never even considered any other possibility. Which is essentially rampant egotism.
I consider Sir Dent and a few others all the time. Whatsoever do you mean??? I haven't "considered" the Atheistic points of view??? Oh, well I already explained. I need certain counselors. Ones who know what Jesus meant.
I am not concerning myself about a consensus or agreement. We cannot agree with worldly thinking; it's frowned upon. We have to think spiritually.
Aint no female God. And yes I do have gremlins in the closet. Maybe you'll meet the others one day. I think you would like one of them VERY much.
I have no heaven or hell; just the truth of the biblical scriptures. Truth makes us free when we know it.
I always assume the gender in referring to God is a semantic convenience. Why would a god need a penis and a Y chromosome?
I'm with you. It's all about language. We refer to God as HE, IMO, because (for Christians at least) his incarnation was as a man, who referred to him as Father. Otherwise, even a bible believer has to recognize that if both male and female are made in his image, then God must be both-all. We just don't have a suitable single pronoun to refer to someone who embodies all gender characteristics.
Just my take on it.
Of course we have such a term - hermaphrodite. Is god then a hermaphrodite?
But I would have thought Eve, considering the source, would have been made in Adam's image. With a few minor changes, of course...
Hermaphrodite isn't a pronoun. Do you call a hermaphrodite he or she? Those of us who believe that Jesus was God in human form recognize that Jesus was male. Jesus referred to God as Father. We, in turn, do likewise.
Genesis two accounts of the creation of Adam and Eve say that we are created in his image. One says taken from Adam's rib, the other simply states created them male and female.
Is it so strange that a God who created us-male, female, androgynous, hermaphroditic would be all of those things? Maybe as a way of showing how LOVE is about so much more than just body parts that "fit" together sexually?
Not a popular opinion, especially among many of my fellow believers, but the only one that has ever made sense to me.
Considering the differences in not only male/female physical characteristics but mental/emotional as well, I would have to say that God was Jesus's "mother", not father.
It should be obvious that neither term fits well at all (both take another being), but "mother" fits better than "father" if there is but one human-type parent. Which, to my way of thinking, goes along with your androgynous love. Rather a personal opinion/definition, I'm afraid.
Very much so...a personal opinion I mean. I see what you mean, though. Getting back to societal norms, though, it wasn't possible for a man to bear a child then-so Jesus had a human mother, which was why I assume he and others thus referred to God as Father.
I'm fairly certain that given until almost two millennia later, we didn't know how the gender of a child was determined, we probably didn't know much about human reproduction then. I mean, it would be nice to be able to tell Henry VIII now that those women he beheaded for not giving him male heirs weren't at fault for that.
I was listening to an interview a while back with a professor of Jewish studies who was talking about just that and said they didn't and we still don't have the language to explain God properly. I suspect however that we use father because at the time it was a very strong patriarchal society that didn't think much of women.
It reminded me of something I thought was very strange. When both of my wife's grandfathers past away everything they had (money and property) was immediately handed down to their children despite the fact that their wives were still alive.
He has neither. But man he made in his image. Woman he made for man. It seems wierd now that I think of it. Gender? What does the bible say?
Societies that have healthy cultural religious beliefs normally include the female equally with the male. They are seen as complete and all part of the Creation. They see no need to emphasis one more than the other.
Judeo/christian religion seems to have cast out the female in favour of the male.
And if you don't run right up to the Lord, he will send you to a special place he has made for you. And you pretend that you are not trying to scare us. Did you not say that you had stopped being dishonest earlier?
Yep....this is pure GARBAGE!
Some people say they are proud to be American. Does God hate that too?
Sounds like daddy issues...definitely?
It certainly sounds like it, or something very similar.
@Cgenaea said: "ok, it's getting too hard. I got this issue; and I know it is not pleasing to you. Please help..." if this is an appeal to "god out there somewhere," it could be seen as a 'daddy issue.' But I have experienced during Noble Silence, when practiced as part of Vipassana meditation, that when one cannot ask someone else to rescue me, the only course then open to me is going "inside" and facing all the issues there, really honestly, and out of this comes the answer(s), usually. Sometimes the answers are not complete or totally understandable at the time.... they still need more work and assessment, given time if you like.
If this is equivalent to "asking God to sort it out," then I can recommend it. When Daddy has been removed from my choices and decisions, they can be much more authentic and relevant to my deeper needs.
Since there is no evidence of any Gods, it is ultimately the mind that comes up with an answer. But the motivation behind the question, and the psychological make up of the individual, effects the issue...it seems.
Ha-ha-ha!!! My daddy issues are still working themselves out. I feel nothing behind it. However, truth is painful sometimes. The best of friends tell you what you NEED to hear and not just what they think will scratch an ear...
I'm no enemy; and soon you'll know.
The stand is not in judgment; but in the word of God.
I keep saying that. Maybe it will sink in using your dialect. Lol
I personally reject the concept of any God. I think there would be concrete evidence of it's existence and like Jonny certainly reject the judgmental Gods as described by religion. Without the concept of God cluttering your mind the universe and life becomes much clearer and we begin to see how descriptive the concept of a God is. With God we've attempted to explain things we didn't understand and when the understanding eventual came it was rejected because it conflicts with the concept of God.
No I do not think so, but we are making a very good job of speeding it up with destroying the environment.
one person's Armageddon depiction
may simply be another person's idea
of an economic failure or catastrophe
the world is experiencing catastrophe
through lack of righteousness
and growth of evil
Armageddon is just around the corner
if the nations do not eliminate the evil
history has shown that as the number
of corrupt politicians with radical agendas rise
the destruction of society and its members
I really do. 'Critical times hard to deal with' are here. 1 Tim 3. Matthew 24.14
Given the level of evil sin currently growing steadily in the multi-cultural societies of the earth, it is certainly possible.
The Roman Empire and other societies were destroyed for the very same reason.
Today many nations have WMDs that could bring the END.
Sometimes it seems like it but I'm not sure. But I hope not in my lifetime, nor that of my children. It's just scary, but as the Bible says, no one really knows when it will happen.
You can hop on a plane to Israel, and go to Mediggo and 'see Armageddon'. As for an apocalyptic clash between supernatural beings...my money is on 'nope', and will always be on 'nope'.
Then what do Revelation chapter sixteen mean to you in the holy scriptures???
No sir GOD is good and he loves you more than you could ever imagine.
That would contradict the chapter you referred. A loving God would never do such things, or is your definition of love opposite of the one in the dictionary?
No sir!!! GOD is not doing this to us, His desire is that we have life and have it more abundtantly. John 10:10 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
But God created evil, after all. Isaiah 45:7. Besides that, in revelation, God is supposedly doing a lot of the killing. Not the adversary. Satan is responsible for 10 deaths in the Bible - jobs children - with God's express permission. God ordered to be killed or himself killed over a million.
Let me ask you something. Are you concerned over all of the other apocalyptic prophecy found in other religions? Probably not, because you don't believe they are true. I just believe in one less apocalypse than you do.
You should probably read Revelations 16 to see that God is doing that to us.
Sorry about the peanut gallery, Pamij. I think Armageddon comes and goes periodically. I do believe another one will happen eventually… not sure when; maybe sometime during this century.
Do you feel his love? Do you sense it in any way?
They mean nothing to me beyond any other piece of literature or poetry. Some fantastic imagery, but no different than the descriptions of Ragnarok, or of the clashes described in the Kojiki.
Rev 16 was prophecy fulfilled already. Long before your great decedents were born.
Then none of us was present. Can you be sure that this prophecy was fulfilled?
At least as sure as we can be that there was a world wide flood, that an ark filled with all the animals of the world rode it out, that there was an Eden, that all mankind is descended from one couple, that an angel killed all the firstborn of Egypt in one night, etc. etc.
And doubly so as Revelation is obviously metaphor and we are allowed to make any meaning we wish for the words there.
Cgenaea, are you not attaching your own meanings to Revelations?
My question addressed the assertion that the prophecy was fulfilled. We know the information you present is written biblically. You have some of it in a bias box so no need to address.
Do you know the prophecy to have been fulfilled???
It is found in the book itself, How can you not see it? The temple was still built, In Rev 1, it says "soon to happen", not 2000 years later. I found this book very confusing when I understood it as you do, but when I have come to the understanding that it was written before the great siege of Jerusalem with the day of the great slaughter, it all started to make sense. Yes I am very sure that this prophecy has been fulfilled. to you understanding Cgenaea, what is this great harlot that John versioned? It is very simple.
When "one day" equals 10 Billion years (Genesis), "soon to happen" would likely refer to the end of the universe, when it dies and all stars gutter out many Billions of years from now.
I have no revelations on the book of Revelations. I really haven't tried much. However, soon biblically is very vague. The temple built torn down and rebuilt torn down to be rebuilt from my scant understanding of it. I just thought you had an inside track on the subject. The harlot??? Please tell me.
The temple was built by Solomon I believe. I was later destroyed around 480bc, along with the Jewish religion, but temporary. It was later built again and then destroyed AD70 at the hands of Syrian Romans as prophesized by John in Matt 3:10 and in the parable of the rich man and laserus in Luke 16. Christ spoke about the coming horrendous event in Matt 24 and in 25. The temple's destruction a second time was a vision John had and he called it the second death. As for what the great harlot is, it is none other than the city of Jerusalem. The third temple will not be a physical nor supernatural temple. We the believers in YAHUSHUA ha MASHIACH are the temple.
So John saw something that already happened. So what do you say we may expect for end times? I was pretty sure that Rev. was end times prophecy. Being so abstract and metaphorical that book is a bit beyond my full comprehension. I don't really sweat it because I really haven't felt I needed the information. The strive to understand it has not been a priority.
That is not true. John did not see something that already happened, he saw what was soon to pass. The book was written in the early AD60s, not AD96. There will be no end times as the church believes it. When the great harvest of tabernacle begins, the completion of God's plan for all mankind will begin.
No end to life as we know it; to golden streets??? End is end. Does it matter how the END to life as we know it occurs to what the bible says will be, for eternity???
Do you believe that Time exists in heaven?
I know this wasn't for me, but from what I understand of time, it is the passing of events. If "things" are happening one after the other, then time is passing. It will be time without end, without death, or eternal life. That is not without time, from what I understand.
Some were talking about "void" before, and there would be no time in complete, black, void. Just as an example.
Some say God exists outside of time, but they mean (I think) that he can see it all from beginning to end, and isn't subject to it, or something like that. Being an eternal being, things definitely were happening, time was passing as he put things into motion. Just my thoughts.
Steven Hawking said something like a God could not have created the universe because he would have needed time to create it.
@Cgenaea, then why do you believe in everlasting life?
No John made it up. Look at the four living creatures: one man, one lion, one ox, one eagle. Now look at the stars or an astrological chart; you will see on opposites sides, one man (Aquarius), one ox (Taurus), one lion (Leo), and one scorpion, or as the Babylonians interpreted, an eagle (Scorpio). John was looking at the stars and following Babylonian astrology fancied he was seeing god type creatures. I'm amazed Christians are so blind to Johns rip off of astrology.
Not only that but the church argued for 300 years about including Revelation . Anyway, and thus John and Revelation have lost all credibility.
Very interesting, Disappearinghead. I once read that Revelations was never meant to be in the NT because it was written as the end to the author's world, not ours. Intriguing.
There are all sorts of astrological extrapolations which can be made regarding the Bible--Abraham is given a ram (Aries) to sacrifice to Yahweh instead of Isaac, Moses is angry at the Hebrews for making a golden calf idol (Taurus--the astrological age BEFORE Aries, and thus a reversal rather than an advance), Jesus has a lot of fish imagery (Pisces) and was said to usher in a new age...
Given how vitally important astrology was to ancient peoples, this should be surprising to no one. It shouldn't even surprise hardcore god botherers who scream about astrology being of the devil. Many stories in the Old Testament--Genesis in particular--parallel ancient Babylonian myths (even before the Babylonian captivity), and to deny the impact of the Babylonians on the ancient world because your god is bigger than their god is willful ignorance--which is the only shameful kind of ignorance.
Ok so let me get this right... katie, and all the disbelievers here. You all do what you do because you're just here on earth and you just follow the laws of the land to avoid jail time... but if you can get away with doing something bad for your own good then you would still do it. So basically we have a conscience placed in there because we don't believe on anything? lolz haha. very solid foundation of beliefs you got. We do what is right and evil because it is inborn... where did we get that from? of course ... who else our Father in Heaven. duh. common it's not rocket science idiots! (don't say you got that from your biological parents... or the apes... we got that from the first people here on earth). packing morons!
I don't go around killing people because I have absolutely no desire to do so. I value human life, and I don't need a cosmic scoreboard to make me value life or do good things--I do good for goodness's sake. When people do bad things to me, I feel bad--and because I have empathy for others, I don't want to do bad things to others because I don't want them to feel bad. This isn't contingent on the supernatural. I see bad things in the world, and I see good. That does not require that I then believe in a god or gods.
Disbelieving isn't hard for me. There is nothing compelling enough to make me believe, so disbelief is really quite easy--just like it's easy for me to disbelieve people who claim they were abducted by aliens, or were rescued from a burning building by Bigfoot.
So who were the first parents or mortals here on earth? who would teach them what is right and wrong? why did they pass on the values of morals, character, good, and evil? Why does the constitution have "In God we trust." ... common so if people don't believe in God, then they shouldn't believe in the laws of the land... period
The Constitution doesn't say 'In God We Trust'. It doesn't mention God at all. And gods are not necessary for laws.
Human beings are a social species, and something we call 'morality' emerges in social species in order to ensure the survival of the group. If this is something that you are genuinely curious about, you should look into the evolution of morality. But moral laws predate the Old Testament (Hammurabi's Code of Laws, for instance), so Yahweh can't be the origin of laws like 'don't kill or steal'.
Ok, yah i stand corrected on the US constitution. my bad. But the pre-amble to the constitution referred to God as "Almighty of the Universe". The framers of the constitution avoided mentioning God (and Satan) in the constitution to exercise freedom of religion. The pledge of allegiance has the words "under God...". The US coin had the word "In God We Trust".
Ok so we may all have different beliefs. So you believe that there is no God (like Buddhists and other people do)... and I can respect that. But I can respect those who do also if it motivates them to do good towards others and their family members. Just remember... we have an engineer of these earths, planets, galaxies... in due time we will know who they are. but for the meantime, continue to do good and love. coz it feels right...
The Preamble to the Constitution of the United States doesn't reference God, the Almighty, or even Providence. The pledge of allegiance had the words 'under God' added in 1954 in response to the 'menace' of communism (and it was originally recited while performing the Bellamy Salute--which bears an unfortunate resemblance to the Nazi salute, and was abandoned in favor of placing one's hand over their heart in 1942). US currency has 'In God We Trust' on it because in the aftermath of the Civil War, some Christian members of the Treasury snuck it in, and then appeared on paper money in the 60's, also in response to the 'threat of communism' (which is also how 'In God We Trust' ended up as our national motto--fear of the godless commies). I think 'E pluribus unum' is a much better national motto, which more accurately reflects the idea of the United States of America, but sadly, I don't get to call the shots, and there are more immediate issues that deserve my attention than getting the national motto changed.
Yes, it feels right, that is the point. Unlike believers, who are told to do good things for others so they can get their rewards in heaven, non-believers do good things for others because it is the right thing to do, and they do those things without expecting any rewards, in heaven or anywhere else. That is a huge difference.
Truth. The benefit I get out of doing good for someone else is purely seeing them happy, which makes me happy. I'm not doing it with a big cosmic gun pointed at my head, playing Russian Roulette with my every choice. We're all free to act in any way we choose, and even without some eternal Big Brother watching over us, I think most people would choose to do good. We non-believers do good because we're not antisocial, and I think everyone who is not antisocial would also do good if they were non-believers.
Ah, you edited your post. Cute.
No, I don't avoid doing bad things because I want to avoid jail--I have no desire to do those things. I have a purely secular morality. I make decisions based on a consideration for the outcome of my actions, and judge those outcomes based on various criteria (e.g. Life is generally preferable to death, pleasure is generally preferable to pain, health is generally preferable to sickness, etc.). I don't have somebody else declare what is right or wrong to me and then follow that 'moral law' blindly, even if it means I have to sacrifice my firstborn child to that 'moral lawgiver', or have to go and slaughter people in battle and then take the virgin girls as my slaves because my 'moral lawgiver' said it was what it wanted.
yah sorry, had to edit. my english is poor. i'm not a native english speaker. I understand... we all have freedom of choice since when we were born (some have lots and some have limited). but at any rate, i understand where you come from. at the end what matters is we put all our differences aside and love each other. :-)
Your English is fine--but your edited post is considerably more confrontational. lol
There is plenty of evidence that Atheists don't need the fear of God to be good. I know I personally don't. You must have been taught that you need the fear of God to be good, that's one of the limitations that Religion puts on it's people. It prevents them from ethical maturity.
The US prison system is made up of less then 0.5% Atheists.
Care to guess what percent are Christians?
If there were no laws for any particular act you wish to imagine that somehow benefited me but made a direct negative impact on someone else, I still wouldn't do it, because I know that doing that act will have a negative impact on that person and I wouldn't want that to happen to me. I don't need anyone to tell me that, let alone some ancient book, I can figure that our for myself. Why can't you?
From our own minds, using reason, to think things through to their ultimate ends, to understand that any acts we commit may have negative consequences for others.
Have you noticed that your insults are not well thought out, that you didn't use your mind to reason out why you shouldn't call us idiots and morons, that even the belief in your "Father in Heaven" didn't stop you from writing them here? Maybe it is the apes who are moral?
Lets look at Revelation 16 : We see GOD's wrath. Why is he so angry with humanity? 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 ¶ And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 ¶ And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; Ex. 10.21 and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
After all the deeds that humanity did above GOD in his mercy continues to give them a chance to repent. Do you not see that??? His love does not stop there, rather you guys believe in him or not he still loves you and want you to turn to him.
GOD does not care what you done, if today you will repent and turn away from your sin this is what he say, "18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. GOD does not want to kill you, he loves you for you was created in his image.
We all own, or at least have access to the Bible.
Just sayin' you don't have to reproduce it in large chunks for us.
And here I thought the OP was asking if we thought we'd see Armageddon in our lifetime....instead, lecture and preaching....fiddlesticks!
Seems like ancient poetry to me--filled with fantastic imagery which cannot possibly be taken literally, and is NOT taken literally when it comes to you from Odin or Zeus or Indra. But when this particular storm god says it, that makes it fact?
But, you just finished saying this:
So, now you agree with us after actually reading the passages.
Just trying to show you GOD'S love, but you know what GOD gives us all a choice, he does not force anyone to worship him. We all have free will. However we must think back to the days of Noah when he kept telling the people it was going to rain and they laughed and scorned then the rain came and what happened to the people???
Everybody here knows the stories.
Again, just sayin'
You mean this love…
Exodus 21:20-21 NLT
If a man beats his male or female slave with a club and the slave dies as a result, the owner must be punished. But if the slave recovers within a day or two, then the owner shall not be punished, since the slave is his property.
or this love?
Leviticus 21:9 NLT
If a priest’s daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she also defiles her father’s holiness, and she must be burned to death.
Oh the compassion.
That's nothing--try Numbers 31:1-18.
Oh yes that is lovely isn't it?
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Kinda gives me the warm tingles. Anyone ever notice it's always one guy that says he talks to God, but no one else hears it? You'd think an all everything God would and could speak to the masses. Oh well.
1 Samuel 15:3
It's my favorite example of love EVER.
God drowned them all, which is mass murder. Very evil guy.
It is strange how people can twist the bible into something negative and refuse to see GOD's love for humanity such as:
I.The Deliverance of the children of Israel out of Egypt
II.Adding fifteen years to King Hezekiah's life when he deserved death
III. Feeding the Prophet Elijah during a famine and hiding him when his life was sought
IV. Raining manna from heaven
V. Delivering the 3 Hebrew boys out of the furnace
I can go on and on showing GOD's mercy
Nobody is twisting anything, the words are there for all to read.
It would seem that YOU are the one who is twisting the words.
one would think that if you have to redefine words, make up excuses and try to make the text say something that it doesn't say, it may not be a good idea to bring it up. Apologetics is nothing but the study of spin doctoring, word smithing and making excuses for a supposedly all-powerful deity. It's pitiful.
Yahweh was a thunder/war god, in the same tradition as Thor and Indra. Examples of him ordering the Israelites to go and slaughter people are far more common in the OT than examples of him being touchy-feely. You'll notice that every single one of those items that you listed was an act of 'mercy' delivered solely to the Hebrews--and only if he rolled out of bed that morning and liked them. If their God is so merciful, why allow the Holocaust? Or the practice of secretly baptizing Jewish children and then having the Inquisition kidnap them during the 19th century--like what happened to Edgardo Mortara? If the Abrahamic god is 'love and mercy', then he's had a funny way of showing it for the last 3,500 years--especially toward his Chosen People.
It is strange how people can twist the bible into something negative and refuse to see GOD's love for humanity such as:
I.The Deliverance of the children of Israel out of Egypt
II.Adding fifteen years to King Hezekiah's life when he deserved death
III. Feeding the Prophet Elijah during a famine and hiding him when his life was sought
IV. Raining manna from heaven
V. Delivering the 3 Hebrew boys out of the furnace
I can go on and on showing GOD's mercy
You mean in the same story where God slaughters millions of Egyptians, primarily children?
So he extended one guy's lifespan by a few years. Whoo-hoo. Didn't stop him from killing children.
Was that before or after Elijah summoned bears to chase down and kill children for calling him bald?
Because clearly being petty and forcing your chosen people to live off of stale bread is more merciful and loving than simply guiding them to the Promised Land. Clearly petulance is a desirable quality in a deity.
Was that before or after the guys who threw them in died from exposure to the heat? Why didn't God save them? Eh, I guess his mercy and love is...selective at best.
Yes. His selective, bafflingly counterintuitive mercy.
GOD always extends warning before judgment, rather you chose to believe or disbeleive is on you. We are all governed by free will.
Can you give us ANY good reason to believe in any god - let alone yours?
Fluffy would love it if you worshiped Tiamat. Is bonding with your pet a good reason to worship a God, or Goddess in this case?
Hey! Dionysus is a fun guy! I can think of LOTS of reasons to worship him.
Hey, I've seen the Emperor of Japan with my own two eyes--he's TOTES real! (And he has a genus of gobies named after him!)
Fluffy probably would, you're right. I'm waiting for him to roast my chestnuts so I can get in the holiday spirit
After 5 weeks of argumentative non-sense dominated by mostly empty yet faithful contributions from Cgenae, this thread (approaching 1700 posts) amounts to nothing useful except Melissa' s comment about her cat!
Do you also have a god- sorry, I mean dog - at home Melissa?
So why doesn't God come down and reveal himself unambiguously to everyone in the world? If such an experience was good enough for Paul, why can't God reveal himself to me and everyone else on Earth that way?
Katie Paul's experience qualified him for his future position as an Apostle. We may not all see GOD while in the natural realm. However if we seek GOD with our whole heart we will have a supernatural experience. Acts 2:17. In the last days GOD is going to pour out his spirit up all flesh. GOD often time reveals himself in dreams and visions.
You didn't answer my question, though. Why can't we all have such an experience if god really, truly wants us to know he is real and ought to be worshipped? You can't qualify it with 'You just have to try with all your heart', because if I try and DON'T have a supernatural experience, you can just say that I didn't do it right. It's a cop-out. Besides, what about people who have such experiences regarding other gods?
It all depends on whose message you take in. Belief in God is NOT a "favor" to God. It helps the believer. We HAVE ample evidence to make a yea or nay decision. Just as Adam and Eve. No, they could not have fully grasped death. They knew NOTHING about it. They had NO experience with it. They took in and believed the WRONG message and brought death into the world. God created immortals. Free will destroyed immortality for a while. BUT...He WILL have his way. A WHOLE world of people who trust him ALONE will live with him forever.
Adam and Eve didn't know that they were making the wrong choice, because they were made completely ignorant and trusting--it's an ancient story about stranger danger, not history.
But heck, I'll bite--what's the ample evidence that we have? I see no evidence to convince me that the Abrahamic god, or any other god, for that matter, exists and has supernatural powers which it exercises. (This is an important distinction, because I've seen various other 'gods', such as mummified pharaohs, the Emperor of Japan, the river Ganges, communion wafers, etc. but not a single one has any supernatural abilities which would distinguish them from otherwise identical non-gods.)
They were given instruction. Had they listened and trusted as they were made to do they would still be here! and the bible calls it history.
The evidence is all the mouths that proclaim; the pages of the bible; the holy spirit; and faith which brings God "to your service"
They didn't know they couldn't trust talking snakes. And what was god doing putting something he didn't want humans touching in a place where they could touch it, while simultaneously allowing a serpent which he knew would tell the humans to do the exact thing he told them not to do and, because they're perfectly naive and trusting, they end up doing something horrible? Not a god of great wisdom.
Y'know what else claims to be history? The Silmarillion. That is not a good reason to believe in Manwë and Morgoth, or that Frodo Baggins is the savior of Middle Earth--no matter how many nerds speak Elvish. That's not evidence. That's argumentum ad populum, and would also be 'evidence' for Lord Krishna, Allah (who has no son, and Muhammad is his prophet), Buddha, and Xenu's existence.
One who judges God is quite funny. Don't people know how short their arms are??? He said DON'T TOUCH IT. they believed ANOTHER message.
They had conflicting messages, and they didn't KNOW which to believe--according to the story, they didn't know that disobedience was wrong, because they had no knowledge of right and wrong, good or evil, anything. It's just a 'stranger danger', obey your parents or you will be punished story which contradicts the creation story told in the chapter immediately before it.
See??? Determination NOT to believe is as dangerous as that stranger in Eden. The bible has no contradictions. He said don't touch it or you gon die. The stranger said "Hawg-wawsh!" They believed the stranger instead. They didn't know that they were totally ignorant, they THOUGHT more highly of their own ignorant intelligence than they ought and decided to follow themselves not knowing that they didn't know better. Crazy right???
The Bible certainly has contradictions. The Bible describes two COMPLETELY different lineages for Joseph. One creation story says animals came before humans, and the very next story says that humans came before animals. Matthew, Luke and John each record different last words for Jesus. There are differing descriptions of the death of Judas. There are contradictory claims in 2 Samuel regarding how many children Saul's daughter had (either she had no children, or she had five). If you google 'List of contradictions in the Bible', you get results. If there were no contradictions in the Bible, that would bear out, but there are very clear contradictions.
Nothing in Genesis bears out your interpretation. But here's what it does show: it shows that Yahweh is not omnipresent, or omniscient, or omnipotent, or else none of that would have happened. But you've established that you don't care if what you believe is true, so why should I listen to a word you have to say regarding what you believe?
We are not locked in. You are free to believe however you desire.
Then, why are you here trying to change our beliefs?
I cannot change your belief. I may only give you the truth of the matter. God is way beyond our judgment. We cannot fathom a big man with no brain who made a being that is capable of automatic bandaids (scab) and taking a kajillion needed breaths and giving an automatic mechanism capable of processing blood and pumping it through tiny fragile tubes. and multiplying...oh! I could go on and on and on and on...
You must believe as you wish. God can see your intent. He knows what trust in him truly looks like. I cannot give you trust. I may only relay. Now YOU have the baton... RUN!!! Or stand still asking questions that will not quench the desperate thirst.
Truth? You wouldn't know anything about truth.
I'm sure you could. It still wouldn't make any sense, though.
Still trying to push your beliefs on me. Sorry, your version of Christianity isn't one I'd be interesting in, thanks.
But I only want to believe in things which are TRUE, and if something which I accepted as true turns out to be false, guess what? I'll stop "believing" in it!
Also, are you conceding the point that there are contradictions in the Bible?
You really are convinced by a literal Adam and Eve, why? Did you know that the Jews wrote, rewrote, and edited the Torah during the exile to give a comforting account to a disposed and downtrodden people? How do you know what is real and what is fiction? Were you there debating with them about what to include?
Yeah! I sat next to you don't you remember me??? You were early. You got more of the editing done. Did you take notes? We were trying to vote on a cute and cuddly puppy in place of the snake, remember?
If you have a "supernatural" experience, how do you identify where it came from? Do you check gods id? I mean, seriously. Thousands of people from all over the world claim to have divine experience, but they attribute those experiences to different Gods. How do you know they're from God at all?
Furthermore, what qualified paul to be an apostle. He never met Jesus, was never on a list of apostles, and was never called an apostle by anyone but himself
Faith IDs God. He told Thomas, "blessed are they..." well I know it is already known what he told Thomas.
We have enough.
If God swung from the chandelier of our livingroom, we ask for ID. Right??? He gave us enough. It is now up to us to decide. Those with faith in God WILL NOT be ashamed or embarrassed on THAT day.
I wasn't asking you. Perhaps you should illuminate to your christian counterparts here that you think Allah of Islam is the same god that you as a Christian worship.
I will wait for the person I was actually speaking to for an answer. I'm not playing any more games with you, your insults and your assumptions against those who have actually studied these things.
Dreaming about anything doesn't make it real, including God. If I dream of Thor, does that make him real?
Yeah, I dream all sorts of crazy stuff. Last night, I dreamed that the weather was nice outside--but then I went outside and saw that dreaming it didn't make it so.
I dreamed I was a dragon and flew away when I got stuck in traffic and incinerated the car that cut me off with a fire ball blast from my nostrils. Good times.
I sought God with my whole heart for over 20 years but never once had the supernatural experience that you claim I should have had.
I don't feel that everyone receives the "supernatural experience" as supernatural is commonly understood. The problem is that we lay out parameters for the way God should do things for us. We forget that it is we who are small in comparison. He is the parameter layer. He is not subjected to OUR will. We are the subjects when we truly follow him. His will; not ours.
I personally have been waiting for him to do just one thing for years!!! But I dare not thumb my nose because he is sooooo slooooow. I wait. I beg sometimes; but still, I will wait. Loving and trusting him with my best interest still.
I never laid out any parameters whatsoever, or made any conditions. I have simply had no supernatural experience yet pamlj above said I will have a supernatural experience. Is he/she not a true Christian?
You say you've been waiting for God for years to do something for you and as you have not said otherwise I'm assuming he hasn't spoken to you about it either. Would you behave like this to your children? Blanking them in their time of need without a word.
My dad did it all the time. Especially with money. I'd wait for a no response for days. memories...
Patience is important. People actually give him ultimatums. Fancy that...
So your image of God is informed by the image you have of your father?
My image of God is formed by my image of Jesus. That was a practical response for how we must be patient and still be able to accept no if that just so happens to be the case. So many people drop God based solely on what they didn't get??? But how does that look??? Are you married? Does a wife divorce her husband each time he forgets an anniversary or leaves his socks in the middle of the floor? Hell, these days women accept all sorts of BS to report that they do not sleep alone. But God is faithful and we make demands. What kind of love is that?
People don't drop God based upon inconsequential events analogous to leaving socks on the floor, you know that. People drop God because perhaps after years of observation they see no evidence of his intervention in life; theirs, friends, families, or those living in the Philippines when a monsoon strikes for example. Not only, but after they have dropped God, they look at their lives and see little or nothing has changed.
People come to God with a list of particulars. They expect their list to be checked and checked again. God cannot be told what to do. His will is ultimate. The things we pray for are fleeting at best. He is not Santa.
He's not Santa? Doesn't he have a list? I'm certain he's checked it twice. Does he not know who's naughty and nice? Ok. He's probably not coming to town so maybe therein lies your confusion.
I didn't "drop god" on the basis of "what I didn't get," -- get from "god," at least.
I was looking for love and compassion from human beings who said, or implied, that they got their goodness from their god. In many cases I found none of that compassion; they were up themselves. They were all talk.
Some people who consider themselves christian are compassionate and caring. Many who are not christian display equal compassion and caring. I do not see the christianism as relevant. It's a smoke screen, used by people to make themselves appear superior.
I "dropped god" because of the people who use god as the carrot behind that smoke screen. You, Cgenaea, seem to me like one of the people. I might be wrong, only you can answer truthfully when you look into your own objectives and motives. If I am not wrong, you are one of those people that cause me to "drop god." Thank you, I am the better for it.
I appreciate your honesty. Let me ask you this... if your brother was mean to you, would that make you to disown your dad??? Would it make you to blot your name from his will denying his provision for you???
My God is not an enemy. He is all that hischildren can never be. Jesus is the one we look to. His standard and motivation are pure.
What happens when you have waited for 30,40 years - a lifetime and still don't have that one thing?
Will you decide that because you got something similar that He actually DID give it to you? Will you decide that His answer is "No"? Will you pretend that you never asked after all? Will you give in and put forth the effort to get it all by yourself, then saying He gave it to you?
Will you question the other things you have received and ascribed to His work - that they were either coincidence or from your own efforts? What will you do/think/feel when you realize that God has never given you one single thing all your life, although you have assigned many things to His generosity?
Haven't we learned something from the story of the Emperor's new cloths?
It is difficult for some to learn. I suspect that if this question is answered truthfully it will be to the effect that one should remain faithful, always maintaining the mistaken belief that God is involved in their personal lives and answers prayers. A lifetime of failing to answer is irrelevant; faith must be maintained.
Maybe that's why no one actually keeps track and records these things; much easier to forget and/or ignore if not written down.
Ehh, I think the point would be if you want something pray for help with the skills/personality traits needed to get it.
That actually works, believe it or not. To one extent or the other. But you have to actually get off your lazy arse to do it. Which I guess is what they mean by God helping those who help themselves.
A little different. There's science but it's too early and my coffee hasn't started working yet. Google it yourself. It's about self-affirmations and stuff. Think it, live it, be it and that such.
It doesn't seem to matter whether it's self-affirmation or prayers statistically. I guess it matters individually though. It does for me anyway.
No. The bible helps those who realize they CANNOT help themselves. People came up with that other phrase. Ask Job . People kill me with their ideas that they self-suffice. I guess that's what GOD meant when he said lean NOT unto your own understanding. We just don't have ALL the info... Ask Adam and his wife .
We don't have all the information, but then it is still far more than the bible has. Modern civilized morals are considerably superior to those in the bible, and of course knowledge of the world around us is incomparably better.
As far as Adam - he had the information, just didn't use it. Just as some people don't use the information/knowledge in the golden rule and continue to insist others believe and behave as they do.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I do that fully. The bible is my guidance so I use it. I respond to it. I am not wrong. I want only BIBLICAL correction. It is all I give.
I realized that a question I asked about Jesus following unbelievers to love them into belief... got NOTHING! But dismissed. I can handle dismissal. Jesus showed me how. C ya later Nicodemus... I got work to do
Adam heard don't touch and he touched. He didn't have all the information. He did not know about death. He had no idea how his world would respond to his disobedience. God knew. Now, we do...
God knew and yet he set up his experiment anyway. In this story God doesn't want people to have any knowledge. Is this where you get your philosophy for life?
God is not looking for zombies. He wants us to realize that he knows the way. He wants us to trust that we will not fall if we do things as he says. He wants us to know that when we err he will forgive as long as we remain truthful along HIS lines. Our lines don't work. Ask Adam.
Right, you think he doesn't want us to think for ourselves, like zombies.
Is that what you got from what I said??? I now see the problem with words.
That's what I got from what you said because that's what you said.
According to you he wants us to just trust him and not think, just like zombies.
I actually don't doubt that praying in that manner will help some people get what they want.
But there is no reason to think God has anything to do with it. Far more likely is that the people are now convinced that they will accomplish their goal, which always helps in actually doing so. As you say, "get off your lazy arse and do it" - it's actually quite effective and no god required.
It has to do with role models and praying to have the same qualities. Within the pagan faith some pick a token God/Goddess with those traits and pray to them. The difference is many will move from God to God as the different traits are needed. In Christianity, they roll all the traits up into one with three aspects, something like the maiden/mother/crone triplicate.
Anyway, it's realization through affirmation. Which is new age for fake it til you make it, approximately. It's more than convincing yourself that you will accomplish your goal, it's more like changing yourself to have the qualities to accomplish your goals... which is a little deeper.
So, for some (myself included) having a strong picture of Christ to aim for is quite helpful... So yes, it does have something to do with Christ, even if it is just leading by example... I guess is the best phrase.
So in that, there is a God required for some people.
But yes, getting off your lazy arse is required in all steps.
Hmm. Pretty much what I meant, even if I didn't put it quite so well.
Thinking that you will achieve a goal means you will put out the effort to do so. And that often means (depending on the goal) becoming a slightly different person or changing somehow to encourage others to help you. In your words, "changing yourself to have the qualities to accomplish your goals" whether that be education, morals or skills.
As far as your needing a Christ (god); you have your picture of Him to work from and that's all that is necessary. No actual god required, just a picture of what you think He is, and that picture may or may not have any correlation to reality. It doesn't need any; it just needs to be be something "superior" to you.
I get what you're saying. I really do, and in the grand scheme of things for everybody, you're likely right. However on a personal basis, the Bible does give that picture of Jesus. By my standards of proof, it's likely an accurate picture... or at least the burden of proof has been met for me. God really doesn't enter the picture but then again, I'm not Trinitarian. But yes, the picture does have to have a connection to reality-to me-and I believe it does.
This is the outcome of SELF sufficiency. I wonder if they see how they just caused the statement by using man's ideas. God is.
much easier to forget and/or ignore if not written down
Seems as if God had that same opinion.
I will do/think/feel as you do. But please!!! Don't hold your breath on that one!
I didn't believe that one for even a millisecond.
I don't think you are capable anymore of actually analyzing a problem without resorting to built in, predefined opinions of what god wants. That is far more important to you than truth and any conclusion will conform to those beliefs.
So no, you will not question your old beliefs.
I totally agree. God is good. We are insignificant. Yet He showers His love on us every day, He allows us to live on his good earth which He created and He creates food for us to eat and sun to smile on us and warm our hearts. God is good. And thankfully for us, He is all-knowing, all-powerful and He is in charge of us little caterpillars who think we know so much. We have a lot to learn and HE WILL TEACH US, be it the hard way since we're so hard-headed, we will learn. He is in control and we should be very thankful for that. He is wise and we are the dummies, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
PRAISE BE ALWAYS TO GOD THE CREATOR!!!!
Wow. That's some pretty low self-esteem.
To each their own... I saw it kind of opposite of low self esteem, though maybe with some humility still. The tone of the whole post is upbeat and not seeming to be sounding like someone with low self esteem. She seemed amazed and happy, not someone expressing from a point of view of low self esteem. It could just be the way they used words.... because truth is, that compared to a mountain, ocean, the planet, or the universe, we are indeed next to "nothing" in size, but compare all that to God, and he is even more huge and magnificent to have created the whole universe.
Then to realize he paid the price for our sins, to help us have a way to Him if he wanted it. We could have low self esteem, but to realize what he has done....wow. I could be wrong in how I saw it, but wanted to share my thoughts in case it was an encouragement instead.
I just never understood the process of comparing ourselves with insects and calling ourselves insignificant to prove our piousness. There's a difference between humility and humbleness and self-abasement.
I am fine admitting I am less than perfect, that Jesus is an inspiration and that compared to him I am lacking... however I don't think God put so much work into us to have us believe we are insects and insignificant.
Humility is one thing, I don't think I'll be crawling on my belly anytime soon.
Oh, I didn't realize you were taking her comparison to an actual caterpillar to such a literal degree, and I saw it as just one word among many others. They may have meant it like "crawling on your belly, etc" like you said, but I didn't take it like that at all. Oh well, and thanks for your clarification on how you took her comment to be so negative.
It may be a cultural thing. In this particular area, in my experience, it begins to be almost like a competition of who can profess themselves lowest to prove their love for God. The immediate assumption is that it's fine to tell others that they are "worms" and "snakes" that are unworthy to stand before God.
After a while, comparing yourself and others to low creatures works into the mind. You believe you are unworthy in general, and see others the same way.
It's just, to me, a negative representation of theatrics that works against having open, honest, faith. That's not meant to be insulting, just a problem I've ran across.
Ok... thanks for explaining your point of view.
The nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he takes up the isles as a very little thing. Isa 40:15
...I will just say that God counts the nations as a drop of a bucket, so where does that put each individual compared to God?
Yet we are created with a wonderful potential and will eventually be the masterpiece of God's creative work!
I think you are right, and we are so small compared to such an amazing God. Yet he has chosen to extend his mercy, grace and love to those that believe in his Son.... We are so small and seemingly insignificant but then on the other hand not at all. The reason is because of what he has done for us. He wouldn't do that for something he cared nothing about.
His eye on is on even the sparrow.....
people one of the worst things we can do is disrespect out creator. So I take your answers to be that you doubt there will even be an Armageddon??
"Doubt" is too weak when considering the biblical Armageddon.
I doubt there will be an Armageddon and I'm a Christian.
Good luck convincing the atheists.
Let me know how that works out for you.
Yes, I very much doubt that there will be a Biblically prophesied battle between Jesus and Satan.
What I don't doubt is that there are people out there who VERY much believe that it will happen, and are VERY interested in making sure that the events in Revelation happen within their lifetimes--and that scares the hell out of me, because those people have political power. Those people make political decisions based on their fervent belief that Jesus will come back for them before they die, so there is no reason for them to be concerned about the future. They try to pass legislation that they think will please God, because they don't expect that their grandchildren will have to live with the consequences of their actions (the restriction of women's rights, ignoring environmental concerns, stalling peace talks, building up our military and keeping their fingers on the big red button, etc.).
That's why I have such a problem with Premillenialism and Christian Dominionism.
@ Katie: I agree on your note. Do you believe that there is any church perhaps that comes close to truth or have the fullness of the gospel?
I disagree--and I now understand where your claim about aliens comes from.
Right, the bigots and the ones with the secret hand shakes with Smith sitting beside God are the closest religion to the Gospels?
As a Christian myself, I would think that our God in his omnipotence and omniscience already knows who will continue to disbelieve and disrespect and who disrespect him now but will change once he is revealed. And in his grace will still accept those who choose him and allow those who don't to take whatever path they choose.
I shudder to think that our God needs little old us to defend him . That is very limiting to his power. Just a thought
But a very good thought. I like it, it should catch on.
Per usual Deepes, valuable and sensible insight. Can you send this out in a memo?
If you friend him on FB, you get daily status updates filled with Deepes wisdom and insight.
Two a day if you're lucky
Deepes wisdom on the daily?! Will my mind be able to cope with all the sensibleness going on? Ha ha! Thanks for the tip!
Don't listen to Melissa. She has poor taste in reading material...lol
Wisdom and insight? I always thought they were the semi-coherent(barely) ramblings of a man that is full of hot air that spends a lot of time in his own mind
I tried, but not everyone wants the memo on some things that are in the bible (that they believe in) as far as how big God truly is as well as how to act, or so I've been told. Go figure.. But I digress
Well, it's their loss, truly. Trying is all you can do. Some do not care enough to do even that or do so for the wrong purpose or reasons. Their idea of trying to help is force-feeding dogma as all that matters. I've not seen that actually work out yet and actually, as we all know, often has the opposite effect. Why do they not get this? Rhetorical question, of course.
One of the worse things we can do is to think that a fictitious character in an ancient silly fairy tale is our creator. Frightening!
THE SKY IS FALLING!!!
Prayerfully, you don't really deem JESUS~GOD as an ancient fairy tale? However we are all entitled to our own beliefs. Oh yes, without GOD the sky would(will) fall. GOD is neither a pipe dream, nor a fairy tale. Prayerfully you will have an unforgettable experience with our creator.
Most people in the world don't believe that Jesus was god. Even early Christians didn't believe it. And, let me clarify...do you think the sky is an actual physical thing that can fall, or are you just being poetic about it?
Exactly, and that is one of the primary reasons why God doesn't exist.
There are far more worse things we can do than disrespect a being whose only existence is based entirely on words in a book. The problem with believing such a thing is that we then place how we treat human beings on a much lesser plane of ethics and morals, which would account for how badly many people are treated in the world.
Both the Vatican and Uganda come to mind.
Yeah, the worst possible thing you can do is disrespect You-Know-Who, especially if you're a Muggle or are Muggleborn. We should all live in abject fear of him, because at any point, he could send Bellatrix Lestrange to torture us to death.
There are actual human beings I'm more worried about--coincidentally, many of them live in the Vatican and Uganda, lol.
Katie Paul's experience qualified him for his future position as an Apostle. We may not all see GOD while in the natural realm. However if we seek GOD with our whole heart we will have a supernatural experience. Acts 2:17. In the last days GOD is going to pour out his spirit upon all flesh. GOD often time reveals himself in dreams and visions.
According to the bible, Jesus walked around and actually interacted with people after he was resurrected, and according to the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna revealed his cosmic body of Lord Vishnu to Arjuna, both in broad daylight--why shouldn't such things happen in modern times, now that we all have HD cameras in our back pocket with direct links to Facebook and YouTube?
The bible says, "how can they call on him if they don't believe?" And "how can they hear unless someone tells them?" YES!!! We NEED to "defend" the word of Christ.
As for Armageddon; the antichrist is with us daily. Good Vs evil is now a daily concern. People laugh and scoff and speak foolishness concerning the message of Christ to their own peril. But the one who retells his message is not at fault. Beautiful are his feet. (scripture)
The final battle is a little ways away from my understanding of what is to happen first. But it could be within the next minute that all lines up according to scripture. We just don't know. Thanks Pamij for telling it... nice "shoes" you wear
Muah!!! Been on "lock down" for a whole week!!!
What are you talking about you been on lock down???? Lock down from what????? If someone is holding you hostage I urge you to call your local authorities.
She means that she's been banned from the forums for a week for insulting atheists and other Christians.
Well, some of the people here are very sensitive when it comes to scripture. They spit vile things from their lips and they deny all that is God.
For some reason (well I do know why) they get angry when their silly argument comes against TRUTH and they all of a sudden FEEL PERSONALLY ATTACKED
it is soooooo funny. They attack. But NEVER appreciate the echo. Banned for an ENTIRE WEEK.
They will not win this argument though. It was WON thousands of years ago.
I watched. God is with you.
A few days ago, I read about Paul. He gave a personal account of the brother of Jesus. An "out of the way" James comment is important in determining his authenticity. It is viewed by most historians as an important piece. Paul seemed to be acquainted, from what I recall. And there is no doubt among them that Paul definitely wrote Galatians.
We have enough...
And half of the other letters attributed to Paul are widely known to be forgeries...and anyone who knows anything about lying knows that throwing in extraneous details makes a lie more believable.
Of course, Jesus could have been real, and Paul might have really met Jesus's brother--but that doesn't make a single one of the supernatural claims true, any more than L. Ron Hubbard existing means that he was telling the truth about Xenu.
Right. Faith. We do or we don't. Paul knew God and his son. OR... Paul was crazy and spoke from his own head. Which report do you believe? Simple
Those aren't the only two choices. Paul could have been mistaken. Or he could have been deliberately manipulating the early church. But of your two choices, I'm more inclined to believe the latter--in past times, people who were epileptic, schizophrenic, had multiple personalities, etc. were considered shamans, prophets, etc. who were connected with spirits and gods. Who is to say Paul wasn't epileptic AND mistaken?
We would probably know if Paul had epilepsy. his message is one anong MANY. We believe that the tongues and eyeballs burn out while people stand on their feet (like the BIBLE said) or we don't. We don't have to make bones about it. If one is content in disbelief, que será será.
How? How would you know if Paul had epilepsy? Of the hundreds of people mentioned in the bible, not one had epilepsy, or diabetes, or leukemia or any of a hundred different diseases. It seems reasonable that people either didn't recognize the disease or didn't bother to mention it; probably the latter is it could be (and would be) taken as a sign of the devil. Which it often was just a few centuries later.
Lots of biblical leprosy broke out. And we heard about that. Why would Paul not mention his seizures in any of his letters?
Because having seizures was considered spirit possession, and if he couldn't 'cast out demons', he wasn't 'truly working in the name of Jesus', perhaps? And if he was instead schizophrenic, then his account of his conversion on Damascus would be him mentioning one of his episodes, would it not? (Not to mention about half of the letters attributed to Paul weren't written by Paul, lol)
Peep this... How do you know that Paul did not sit down and pen each and every one of his letters???
You got faith???
Because I can examine evidence that suggests that the letters were forged, and there is a consensus among biblical scholars that the pastoral letters, Ephesians, Colossians, Romans, etc. are inconsistent with the writing style found in the 7 letters attributed to Paul. On the contrary, your evidence that all of the epistles were, in fact, written by Paul is...you just believe.
Look, if you don't WANT evidence supporting your beliefs, and if you don't WANT truth, just say so, and that way we can stop wasting each other's time.
No waste of time... we need this light. Evidence is lacking. As we know, scribes were employed. Paul may have had several. It certainly stands to reason. Plus, none of his friends are alive. We cannot ask. We MUST believe one or the other. Or toss it up...
We "MUST" believe one or the other?
If two men have contradicting stories from each other, that is not a reason to believe either one, they could both be wrong.
If two religions have contradicting beliefs, that is not a reason to believe either one, they could both be wrong.
If two gods have contradicting commands, that is not a reason to believe either one, they could both be wrong.
Like many who have seizures, they attribute them to supernatural experiences.
How would we know if Paul had epilepsy, or any other disorder? People in the ancient world thought diseases were inflicted by spirits, and that hallucinations were visions from gods.
Don't you care if the things you believe in are true?
I have faith that they are true. I cannot tap Paul or any of his friends on the shoulder to inquire. How do you know that any of the ancient writings are true? For all we know, all debunks are false and hold NO water. But obviously, we all believe something.
So you DON'T care if the things you believe are true? You just believe them blindly? How did you come to your beliefs if you don't care if they're true?
I don't believe ANY ancient writings without outside evidence to corroborate it, and then I only believe it on a contingent basis.
You mesn you have faith contingently??? You believe what the other people say for now??? That's ok. The bible speaks about that kind of uncertainty. They named it tossed to and fro. I just prefer the "solid rock."
Until what they say can be disproved, and depending on the claim. I'd probably believe you if your profile said that you have a cat, for instance--I know that people have cats as pets, I know lots of people with cats, I've met a few cats in my life, etc. so it's not an unusual claim, and I would probably accept that without further evidence--"on faith", as you would call it, but I'd just call that 'trust' (because 'faith' is what I call 'believing something when you have no good evidence to believe it'). Of course, if I happened to go over to your house and saw that there was no litterbox, no food and water bowls, no cat toys, no cat hair, no veterinary records, etc. then I would call your claim of cat ownership into question because of a lack of evidence that your claim was true. I would want you to then prove to me that you have a cat before I continued to believe the claim that you have a cat. Whether or not you actually have a cat, though, matters little in the long run, because I'm not going to be basing any life decisions on whether or not your cat is real.
If you claimed you had a pet unicorn, I would NOT trust your claim on a contingent basis--I would want you to show me evidence of your unicorn immediately, because unicorns are not common pets; there is no evidence for unicorns even EXISTING, so if you had one as a pet, I would need to see it to believe that your statement is true. (Especially if you then claimed that if I didn't believe in your unicorn, I would be sent to hell by your unicorn's father--who is also that unicorn.)
Facts are solid. I'd rather KNOW that I'm accepting facts rather than the first thing that comes along and tells me 'Hey, this is a great patch of sand to build your beliefs on--totally solid! BELIEVE me.'
Totally understandable. But my "unicorn" wrote a book thousands of years in the making. He has proven himself to me and many others around the globe. He protected that book when others tried to mishandle it and he left it as further evevidence of his existence. His little "unicorn" came here to show us his dads single "horn" and he left instructions on how to properly perceive it. Most did not listen to his claim and kilt him on a cross. BUT!!! He came back, just as he prophesied and many people actually SAW him with a BRIGHT AND SHINY NEW HORN. They that saw wrote books and were willing to die in protection of their new evidence SEEN with their own eyes. So, my "unicorn" HAS in fact proven himself time and time again. Some just don't believe it. Now that is fine. The faith that God requests is the type that requires only the evidence already provided. He is not looking to populate HIS new world with skepticism. Believe or don't. Bottom line.
That is one of the reasons why we can't take anything you say seriously. God's don't write books, people do.
Yes, people with ulterior motives for domination and control of other people.
Domination is for another venue, thank you and control is not my tactic. Look around.
Oh, but control IS your tactic! You are trying to influence my thinking on the basis of what you say here.... That is your effort to control.
You're here to tell us they're true. That should be enough, right?
It may seem obvious that we all believe something, but what makes you think that something is the same thing as you, or should be the same? Why can't YOU allow others to believe what they want?
Never have I insisted that anyone believe as I. The belief system of a person is strictly their own. My only point has been that God has shown himself to many. He has written the things he wants us to know. If we accept him, we accept what he says. For the gray areas, he expects us to use the wisdom that he gives through his spirit. Jesus fully explains how our thought and actions should be. He SHOWED us God. I may only believe and repeat. You are free to do the same...or not.
Cgenaea, you contradict yourself in this comment. First you say a person's belief system is their own. Then you write as though you think anyone who does not think as you do is doomed in "god's" eyes.
You cannot, (have no wish to), change your thinking outside of your tight belief system, so the argument continues ad infinitum.
That is the only reason you're here. We all know it and you know it.
There you go again, telling us what to believe.
That's like saying 'With all due respect' before insulting someone, you know that, right?
Huh??? I said believe or not. That was assurance that I am not trying to coerce my opinions. Bible scripture...believe or don't. Does that sound like a threat? Or insult?
Considering you just tack on 'or don't believe it' to the end of whatever poorly thought out apologetic you trot out in what I can only assume is an attempt to look humble (while actually being condescending)...
Allah is said to be the God of Abraham. Guess what... MINE IS TOO!!!
I believe there will be Muslims in the kingdom of heaven. And some Christians too!
Well you are greatly deceived JESUS is GOD!!!!!! The ALPHA and OMEGA like I stated previously You are entitled to believe what you choose.
Your claims are just as valid as the muslims. Neither of you have any proof.
Oh boy, looks like it's gonna be good. Glad I've got a front row seat.
*bows* I've been doing this for a long time. It's a benefit of being an atheist who was a former Bible student in a christian college. I'm just more picky about who I debate with now - I have no tolerance for those that like to mock people for being well-educated :-) Want some popcorn?
Every single believer on the planet is greatly deceived because they don't believe the same thing as every other believer on the planet.
If there were a God, he would have the sorest neck ever, always shaking his head at everything you guys say.
You do realize "Allah" is the Arabic word for the Hebrew word "El," which is what we translate as "God," right?
Jesus is the SON of God. Remember? He spoke of his father often while he was here. He said from his lips that he was SENT. He stated that he did not know when he would return (but the FATHER only)
No need for a big argument here. Can we reason it out and come to an amicable conclusion?
Wait, so does Allah have a son or not?
According to the Qur'an, straight from an angel's mouth who heard it directly from Allah himself - Allah most certainly does NOT have a son - and it's blasphemy to say he does.
"Say He is God, the One and Only God, the, Eternal, Absolute. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him!" Qur'an [112:1-4]
They said, "The Most Gracious has begotten a son"! You have uttered a gross blasphemy. The heavens are about to shatter, the earth is about to tear asunder, and the mountains are about to crumble. Because they claim that the Most Gracious has begotten a son. It is not befitting the Most Gracious that He should beget a son. Every single one in the heavens and the earth is a servant of the Most Gracious. He has encompassed them, and has counted them one by one. All of them will come before Him on the Day of Resurrection as individuals. Quran: [19:88-95]
In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things." Quran [005.017]
They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. Quran [005.072]
It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is. Quran [019.035]
But...the mountains are not crumbling, the heavens are not shattering and the earth is still in one piece.
I conclude that the angel lies and God begat the Holy Ghost.
No. I do believe that I just read in the Quran that he has no son. Not sure though.
lol lol lol omg!!!!!! I did not know what was going on.....lol
yes! Sister JESUS is with me and he loves you more than you can imagine, but you already know this.
However some believe JESUS was only a prophet and not GOD robed in flesh. GOD loved us so much until he put on the clothing of flesh(humanity) and came down to save us from our sins. Now if that's not love I don't know what is....