I picked these 4 because they all believe in the same God.
or so they say.
this is not to start a fight.
i just see so many different opinions here and i just want to get it all straight and thought all the 4 who all call upon the same God could state what they believe and why.
i am not talking about any but the 4 listed.
let's be respectful here.
OK now who wants to go first?
If you had any interest in being respectful you wouldn't imply that Catholics are not Christians.
Where did I imply Catholics are not Christians? Let me state that I believe their foundational doctrine of the trinity, that Jesus is God, born of a virgin, was crucified, resurrected and is our Savior is all the true gospel. I just feel so much unbiblical doctrine has been added to the Church as a whole. I do believe Catholics that are saved (as a church doesn't save someone) are true Christians. I do not refute that.
how did i do that?
i read the topic post and i cannot see it.
unless you are talking to someone else?
no i did not mean it like that.
i mean i could have picked any name first.
Islam or Judaism could have been first too.
sorry if it was taken like that....honestly.
they say they all do, i am just wondering if they believe that.
Exactly. Christianity is a broad church (literally) which includes RC, Greek Orthodox, Anglican, Presbyterian etc, etc.
I raised the question because I've seen a lot of 'born again' types who insist that RC is not Christian. But I don't think the Pope would like that
I do not think the listed religions call on the same God.
You didn't start this thread to start a fight? Sure you didn't Shaul. And I have some swamp land to sell you in Florida.
You started this thread then called Judah's Daughter in from that other thread to get the fight on.
I agree, all of those you mentioned believe in the same God. The One and Only, The Greatest but the problem is most of the followers are name sake believers who do not read their scriptures specially in context. Whatever is told to them by their so called elders are quotations out of context. People must go back to their scriptures to realize the actual facts. The best name for that superbeing is ALLAH. This name is even mentioned in Bibles specially the Arabic ones. From English Bibles, this particular name of God has been removed.
In addition to that, Hinduism and Bhudism also believe in the same One God.
Now for Atheists, there is no place to hide because even science is now in search of God. Science is reconciliating itself with the astonishing scientific facts mentioned in Qur'an 1430 years ago. So now, Athists type of beings are having no argument to reject faith on the One Ultimate Being = God = Allah. And if someone claims to believe on Him then he/she have to follow the commandments issued by Him. The foremost commandment is
Qur'an ... "O my people! worship Allah. ye have no other god but Him. Now hath come unto you a clear (Sign) from your Lord! ...
This and other weak arguments for a god are outmoded and accounted for in and across many sciences and only those who are ignorant by choice could think otherwise! There is no proof at all for a god.
Only those who have some sort of mental capacity or intellect can recognize the influence of God.
By the way, you forgot to mention the proof for rejecting God. Your statement must be accompanied by some evidence that there does not exist God.
No evidence is required, there is no proof of god, and don't accuse me of being as ignorant as you are!
I would have thought Allah is upset with this one anyway. This is Usmanali's alter ego - he should be hiding away grovelling instead of accusing people of being ignorant for not accepting his fairy tale just because of the 100% lack of evidence.
These guys are so funny. They claim something with absolutely no evidence is true and then refuse to listen to the actual proof that their god does not exist ....... Talk about ignorant.
Home Girl says:Religion is just a big crutch for your soul. But who invented us all? By the way my name is Alla (without h at the end).
There is evidence of God's existence, albeit it is ontological in nature.
Evolution is not proof that God doesn't exist. It only disproves a particular (and in most believers' opinions an incorrect) interpretation of the Bible's creation accounts.
I don't find evidence of God's existance anywhere. Not the God religious people believe in. Maybe you can tell me
Well - ontological doesn't really count as "evidence."
"We made up god, therefore he exists."
And yes - if you understand evolution, there cannot possibly have been a pre-determined destination (us). If there was - the theory goes out the window.
You are drawing an unscientific conclusion from a scientific theory. Evolution, indeed, science does not confirm any "pre-determined destination," but it doesn't deny it either.
And logically, negatives cannot be proven.
Finally, your attempt at refuting ontological proofs with one sentence falls a bit flat, no offense. An Eternal God, having no beginning, cannot be made up.
OK - What is your understanding of biological evolutionary theory?
I mean - what does it say?
Refuting ontological proofs? You mean if I say - "Ihave decided there is no god, therefore there is no god." counts as proof?
I suggest a decent dictionary.
I have a question. Why those fanatical religious atheists pushing through our throat their beliefs? Hi Mark!
Previously, scientists did'nt new about the universe started with a BIG BANG. But later on in the last century, science came to know about it. This fact of science was already mentioned in Qur'an 1430 years ago.
Now, an intellectual deep thinking person will obviously astonish on the recently discovered fact being already mentioned in Qur'an 1430 years ago, how ??? And the only answer is that a Super Being = God = Allah who knows every thing would have mentioned it the time when science did'nt have the answer.
Now, i gave you the proof. What your science recently discovered was already mentioned in Qur'an which justifies the existance of Super Being = God = Allah who has got the Super Knowledge of every thing.
It's your turn now. prove that God does not exist.
The Vedas which are the oldest spiritual texts means science.Spirituality and science were fused at that time and will come together again is what I believe.
You have not proven a damn thing.
Sorry you need to resort to lying in order to justify your irrational beliefs. Your god does not exist. There is no proof. Sorry dude. You are another one who needs a decent dictionary.
Glad to see you now think the universe started with a big bang and then we evolved rather than being created.
@ Mohit - I see you are finally understanding what most adherents to these religions actually believe. And when they say "god," it is not quite the same as when you use the word.
I know its not the same Mark, a man who know god cannot be inclined to any one religion or prophet as he knows god exits in all humans in everything and does not limit himself.
99% of the people who believe in god think think there is an invisible super being, and their way is the "best" way. As you are discovering.
Which means they do not actually believe in god. They just say they do. For whatever reason. Mostly peer pressure and clever marketing using fear as far as I can tell.
I have come to the conclusion that this is why they defend their particular cult so aggressively.
For understanding the proof which i gave you, you need to have a mental capacity. And you turned the talk towards evolution, now atleast bring forward your proof for evolution.
You really should buy a dictionary usmanali.
Proof does not equal stating your irrational beliefs once again.
And making passive aggressive attacks on my mental capacity is very religious of you. I understand that conflict and war is the goal of your religion, but still........
I very much doubt you would say such a thing to me in person.
You forget to quote Koran.
One day we will find that theory of Big Bang is invalid. To my understanding explosion from nothing does not create something. In illustration he explosion in the printing shop does not create book.
I understand that Hubble telescope measured temperature around, which is constant, but it is only sliver observation to conclude that enormous amount of material, which came from explosion of some few gasses and nobody tell us where those gases came from.
I believe in "Big Bang" but in different view. When God created something in the short time compounding sounds did produced big noise.
The best name for that superbeing is ALLAH.
Why what makes this name the best?
How does the name matter at all if its the same super entity?
Because Allah is a unique proper name for God. You can not play with this name. For example. God can become God Father or God Mother but there are no such names like Allah Father or Allah Mother. Allah is the only unique name for God representing the Only Unique Super Being.
This is nonsense, what about Ahura Mazda or Jeveovah or Brahma?
Its the same super entity man is talking about in different parts of the planet which speak different languages.
http://www.mothersdaycelebration.com/mo … uages.html
Different words for mother.
Afrikaans Moeder, Ma
Albanian Nënë, Mëmë
Azeri (Latin Script) Ana
Brazilian Portuguese Mãe
Calabrese Matre, Mamma
Caló Bata, Dai
Cebuano Inahan, Nanay
Croatian Mati, Majka
Dutch Moeder, Moer
English Mother, Mama, Mom
Esperanto Patrino, Panjo
French Mère, Maman
Frisian Emo, Emä, Kantaäiti, Äiti
Griko Salentino, Mána
Hindi - Ma, Maji
Hungarian Anya, Fu
Ilongo Iloy, Nanay, Nay
Indonesian Induk, Ibu, Biang, Nyokap
Italian Madre, Mamma
Japanese Okaasan, Haha
Judeo Spanish Madre
Kurdish Kurmanji Daya
Limburgian Moder, Mojer, Mam
Lombardo Occidentale Madar
Maori Ewe, Haakui
Mapunzugun Ñuke, Ñuque
Mudnés Medra, mama
Old Greek Mytyr
Persian Madr, Maman
Polish Matka, Mama
Punjabi Mai, Mataji, Pabo
Rapanui Matu'a Vahine
Romanian Mama, Maica
Sardinian (Limba Sarda Unificada) Mama
Sardinian Campidanesu mamai
Sardinian Logudoresu Madre, Mamma
Slovak Mama, Matka
Spanish Madre, Mamá, Mami
Swahili Mama, Mzazi, Mzaa
Swedish Mamma, Mor, Morsa
Swiss German Mueter
Turkish Anne, Ana, Valide
Now anyone who says this or that particular word to describe this entity is the best is talking out of ego or attachment to his language.
Thats the name of a spiritual text like the Quran.
But Brahma did not remained unique as it became Brahma Shutra.
Its a book on Brahma or Allah or God.
Brahmin --knower of Brahma,Allah, Jevovah.
Its clear neither of you belong to this category because no one who knows god fights over one of his many names.Get to know god first then preach on him.
Pardon me Sir, your god did not send the Messiah or prophet to die for your sin. So then people are still in sin and never can go to heaven. By the way paradise is not the heaven and it does not exist now.
I have three different copies of Koran but one is best: THE TRUE FURQAN.
Somebody said: If prophet of Islam died for me on the cross I will accept your god.
Some prophets are destined to be killed and some are not ,this doesn't make one prophet greater than the other.
"Why have you forsaken me" Jesus
Who is he talking to if he is god?
God is in every human but like I have said before while in the body he relates himself to be the body just like Jesus did when he spoke these words on the cross.
The prophet Muhammad had to fight to defend himself.
God send both as messengers and all prophets are equal as are all religions.
I went to heaven and neither were Jesus or Muhammad responsible.
whom you are trying to decieve. There is no such thing as true furqan. It's a rubbish, published by Zionists and Freemasons.
The original question was: What is the difference between Catholicism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam?
How are they alike?
They are all monotheistic (believe in one true God).
All three believe that God is near and active in the affairs of the earth.
They all look to Abraham as the father of their respective faiths.
They all base their beliefs on a Holy Book they believe came from God. The Jews follow the tenets of the Jewish Bible (the Old Testament of the Christian Bible); Christians (including Catholics) read the Christian Bible which includes both the Old and New Testament; and Muslims follow the Koran. The different parts of the Judeo-Christian Bible are dated much earlier than the Koran.
They all believe in obedience to God's statutes and in justice.
How are they different?
Judaism and Christianity (and Catholicism) trace their roots through Abraham's son Isaac who was born from Abraham's original wife, Sarah. Muslims trace their roots through Ishmael who was the son of Abraham's second wife Hagar (who was originally Sarah's maidservant).
Jews and Muslims do not believe in a mediator. They believe a person goes to heaven by doing good works (and thus do not believe in Jesus).
Christians and Catholics believe that it is impossible to do enough good works to go to heaven; so they need a mediator. They believe God came from heaven; took human form as a baby; grew up to be man who never sinned; died on a cross to pay the penalty of our sins; and then rose again from death to stand as our advocate before the Father when the devil accuses us. Some Catholics believe that there is a second perpetual mediator which is the reigning pope.
Christians believe grace through faith leads to salvation through Jesus and that good works springs from love and gratitude from God. Some Catholics believe that Jesus' atonement was not enough and we have to do good works to complete our salvation.
Despite how men have acted in the name of Jesus, a pure reading of all the Gospel accounts of Jesus in the Christian New Testament will reveal that Jesus did not come to condemn people or to force people to believe with a sword to their throat or a gun in their hand. Jesus came to make peace between God the Father and humans and to give them abundant life.
The two most important acts of the Jewish faith are God's choosing of Abraham and the deliverance of the Jews from Egypt with Moses.
The most significant event in the Muslim faith is God's call on Mohammad's life and the giving of the Koran.
The most significant event of the Christian faith is the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. If Jesus did not rise from the dead, then Christianity is false and no one should follow it. If it is true then everyone should follow it. As far as we know Abraham, Moses and Mohammad died, but the Christian claim is that Jesus lives. If this is true then it is worth looking into. There is no evidence to the contrary.
This is great. I just wanted you to know I appreciate your contribution to this thread :-)
I will just add one thing about Jesus not coming to judge the world ~ check out the rest of what He said in John 12:47-48 "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."
This is why the Word is what we live and die by!! Amen!
It's your misconception that Jesus (pbuh) did'nt judged. Do you know when Jesus (pbuh) will return, you people will approach him and say what's in verse 22. In reply, Jesus (pbuh) will judge you by his word in verse 23.
Gospel of Mathew: Ch 7:V 22
22. "Many will say to me on that day, 'My Lord, my Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name cast out demons and in your name perform great powers?'
23. "And then I will declare to them that, I never knew you, go away from me, workers of abomination.
Now tell me is this not a judgment or does it represent some sweets from Jesus (pbuh) to you people ???
Jesus (pbuh) was not resurrected rather resuscitated and will come back to remove the black curtains which these popes have laid on ordinary Christians that Jesus (pbuh) was God, he claimed divinity, he was resurrected, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is not the natural successor of Jesus (pbuh) so on and so forth.
This will be the final judgmental statement of Jesus (pbuh) to christians and that's the main reason of his return to earth, to prove to the christians that he never claimed divinity or trinity and he was not dead. Look at the irony, the word TRINITY which you people cry about does not exists in the complete range and flavours of Bibles, the old and the new testaments alike.
You need to re-read the scripture I quoted above. It definitely states that we will be judged by the Word of God. Jesus was the Word made flesh! Jesus is GOD. If you are Muslim, I invite you to listen to this video ~ a Muslim tells us WHO JESUS IS: http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/test … afshin.wmv
I agree that Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) was the word of Allah (Elohim) who was turned into human being (flesh) by the word of Allah. "The Word" is literally God's utterance "Be." This is held out by the Bible as well as in Qur'an, Al-Nahil(16):40: "Verily! Our (Allah's) Word unto a thing when We intend it, is only that We say unto it "Be!" - and it is"
I also recommend the following for knowledge exchange.
SIMILARITIES BETWEEN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY:
Based on the Bible, the Spirit of God overshadowed the virgin Mary and she begat Jesus Christ. Jesus is called the Son of God, not the Son of the Holy Spirit. God is Spirit. His Spirit begat Mary and Jesus was God in the flesh. God spoke to create everything. Jesus is His very Word and that Word became flesh. The Spirit of God indwells us that believe and is the power of God in our lives. I have a hub called "Who Do You Say That I AM" that will give Biblical proof as to Jesus being God in the flesh. He wasn't created by God, nor is He a separate god. What would you think if you KNEW that Allah, your Father, became a MAN so He could talk to you and even die to pay the price for all your sin, so that you could receive salvation immediately upon believing this? God can manifest Himself any way He wishes. Only He can come to us as a Man, die on a cross and raise Himself from the dead. Amazing, isn't it? How freely He forgives your sin now ~ you do not have to wait until the judgment day, as this will be after you die, most likely. There is no forgiveness after you die (based on the Bible passage in Luke about the rich man and Lazarus). You can be saved now ~ just call on the living God in the name of Jesus (because of His shed blood for your sin) and you will be saved! That's the wonderful good news!!
Now, this video, part 1 is over an hour long? Not to mention part 2? You've already stated that you don't think Jesus died and rose again. That is the very heart of Christianity. If you don't believe in a risen Jesus, you don't believe in the real Jesus Christ. If Jesus Christ is indeed God, your god is not the same God either. Allah indeed means God, and is also used by Arab Christians. Islam and Christianity are about as similar as apples and oranges. They are both fruits, but they are very different and are not of the same tree.
Jesus Christ is the only way, the truth and the life. No one comes to Allah (the Father) except through Jesus, the Living God. Amen.
From god comes all, every human is the son of god and Jesus is an example of the human potential.Meditate , gain enlightenment then you will understand Jesus, Muhammad, The Holy Bible, The Holy Quran and most importantly yourself.
Both of you don't know god.
You obviously didn't listen to the 10 minute video of your Muslim brother's experience. If you don't wish to hear, you won't. I don't know your god. I only know the true God. I wish you to know Him, too. Each person is accountable to God for his choices. You obviously have made yours ~ I pray God will come to you as He did your Muslim brother in that video, who is making the truth known to all the world.
I am a poet and write on god and my book is ranked over Holy Bibles and Holy Qurans the words of Jesus and Muhammad so believe me if anyone knows god its me.
Your book is ranked over the very Word of God? That's quite blasphemous. I have never heard of you or your book. Are you yet another false prophet of the father of lies ~ the only adversary of the Most High God?
God works through me.
Franklin Top Spiritual and Religious
http://find.franklin.com/nav/ca/spiritu … r/ebooks/0
5.Holy Bible -
6. JESUS THE SON OF MAN- Khlail Gibran
7.Santa Biblia Versión Reina-Valera/Spanish Bible
8.Holy Bible, New International Version
I am an enlightened one like Buddha, Jesus or Muhammad .
What you cannot do I can because god is with me.
The serpent said to Eve in Genesis, that they shall be as gods. The serpent is Satan, the father of lies, and so the fact that you believe man can become a god, or that Jesus as a man became a god, is a LIE. It's in the Bible, which came before your Qur'an. The Bible teaches Jesus is God. Your Qur'an teaches man becomes god. These do not serve the same God. You are believing the father of lies, as the Bible is the Word of God, not the Qur'an, which is the word of your prophet.
Jesus said god is within every human and so have all the other prophets and enlightened ones who know the truth .If you meditate seriously with intense concentration you will find god and realize Jesus spoke the truth something I am reiterating today.
;When thy eye be single" Jesus -this refers to the spiritual eye between your eyebrow, focus there.
Its clear you don't know god and neither does Usmanali .
My father is Hindu and mother a Parsee and I see god in the Holy Vedas ,Holy Bhagwat Gita, holy Zend Avista,Holy Bible,Holy Guru Granth Sahib , Holy Quran and many other holy books.
If you know god you would see the same.
In the Christian church we would be hard pressed to find a single priest or nun who does not address their followers as "my children." They would say: "Come here my children", or "Be wary of evil my children" ... etc. What do they mean ??? the begotten children ???
As i mentioned you the word theme and after that if you still insist without any base that Jesus (pbuh) was God then you also have to believe that Mosses (pbuh) was also God.
"And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made you a god to Pharaoh" Exodus 7:1
The theme which you presented about Christ being died on the cross for your sins implies that all you people are allowed to do all the crimes and sins whether it be rape, murder, loot, plunder because after all you are not to be blamed as all the blame was taken by Jesus (pbuh). What's this ???
First of all, you have assumed absolute correct interpretation of Exodus 7:1: Here's all the interpretations in one screen: http://bible.cc/exodus/7-1.htm Moses was God's representative to Pharaoh, but was not a god.
God said we are to have no other gods before Him (the first of the ten commandments), and if you believe man becomes a god, and if you believe Jesus is not God in the flesh, then the Word says you are a false prophet.
1 John 4:1-2 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:" This indicates that Jesus Christ is the Word mentioned in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." And guess what? John 1:14 states, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us."
Romans 10:9 again, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
God forgives His children because we repent. We stop doing those things; we allow Him to create in us a clean heart each and every day. We die to our sinful desires and live for Him by letting His Spirit live through us. If we fall, He forgives us. We are made righteous by Him. No man can live a perfectly sinless life, but Jesus Christ. Not even your prophet did. This is why Jesus Christ is the only sacrifice for our sin.
If you're brave enough, read my hub, "Who Do You Say That I AM?" Jesus is God and not a man that became a god. I have no further conversation now with you, for you are of your father, not of my Father. Amen.
Whom you are trying to decieve. You see i can not fight with the lies one after another. You obviously took a lead on throughing your lies and quotations out of context. YOU WON.
The 1 John 4: 1-2 does not prove Jesus (pbuh) to be God at all. Rather it's a test for a comming Prophet. The verses are very clear that if some one claims to be a Prophet from Allah (Elohim) then he must be checked whether he believes on Jesus (pbuh) or not. Look again.
Beloved, believe not every Spirit, but try the Spirits whether they are of God; because many false Prophets are gone out into the World. (HOLY BIBLE) 1 John 4: 1
St. John does not leave us in the air, guessing the true from the false. He gives us an acid test for recognising the true Prophet, he furhter says that—
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every Spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. (HOLY BIBLE) 1 John 4: 2
Now the above two verses fit very perfectly on Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), a natural successor to Jesus (pbuh). what the Holy Prophet Muhummed (pbuh) says about "Jesus Christ." ??? How high and respectfull positon that Jesus (pbuh) occupies in the house of Islam ???
Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) is spoken by name no less than 25 times in the Holy Qur'an. He is honoured as —
Isa ibn Maryam (Jesus, the son of Mary)
An-nabi (The Prophet)
As-saaliheen (The Righteous)
Kalimatu'Llah (Word of God)
Ruhu-Llah (Spirit of God)
Masih-uLlah (Christ of God)
Behold the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee Glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held In honour in this world and The Hereafter and of (the Company of) those nearest to God- (surah al-i-'imran) Holy Qur’ân 3:45
This Muhummed (pbuh), Al-Amin, the Prophet of Truth, eminently succeeded in the test of 1 John 4:1-2. He made it possible that today, a thousand million Muslims believe in Jesus Christ (pbuh) as one of the mightiest Messengers of God. They believe in his miraculous birth, which many modern day Christians, even Bishops do not believe. And they also believe in his many miracles, including those of giving life to the dead by God's leave; and healing those born blind and the lepers by God's leave. What a mighty testimony!
I just came on this post and I think that the beginning of it was lost.
but I will give my comment along with the rest because I have a bit of a in sight in to at least 3 of them. My Mother was a Baptist who became a Catholic, My sister inlaw is Jewish and my husband is Muslim and yes they do all pray to the same god. You should all ways remember that First there was the Jewish religion then you have the Catholics and then you have Islam I have found you have to try and understand that god told us all the golden rule " Treat others as you would be treated" that is the one I very seldom see anybody quot, that and "and judge not less ye be judged" I heat seeing everyone judging and bashing each other for now reason we are all on the same earth even those of you who do not believe in god should let the others believe what they like.
It would all be so easy if people could really just listen to the other and hear that what they say a lot of times is the same as the other and that Judaism, Christan and Islam are based on the same thing, it is like a tree and god is the trunk and the religions are the branches and if they keep pulling against each other they will kill the tree.
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I believe Catholicism.. has stronger beliefs than the others, possibly. I could be wrong. I know Jews believed in God. And, they were killed for it. I prefer to be called believer.
Although. There is one God and several way religions/titles for it. Wow. Hard to believe. Don't recommand bringing a Hot potato to church. People may get hungery ;-).
I don't know the Islam,.. ways though.
I'm just going to get a birds eye view of the fireworks, thanks.
Nice q by the way
This is exactly what is wrong with the forums, ElElyone, whoever/whatever Shaul Stein. 'Versus' nothing. Let each to his own. It's not supposed to be about a wrestling match...or borderline psychotic aggressive behavior.
All these ways of seeing (and Atheism, too) have merit.
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
you are absolutely right....i'm agnostic and choose to allow everyone their own. no one has to understand my view,just allow me the right to have one.
i did not meant it as you take it.
just on a fact gathering mission here to see what they all believe.
i do not want to fight about it.
what is an elyewon?
El Elyon is a name for God, meaning "Most High God". There is a hubber that uses this name and is the "voice of God Himself" ~ who knows, he may show up here eventually...(he's really a Messianic Jew who pushes the Old Covenant of following all 613 Mosaic Laws and goes by at least three other hubber names as well). He's an interesting character.
Ive already stated my terms of service on another thread
Why cant we just plan a baseball match ,Im up signing up with whoevers got the best batters yep Im on the Christian Team...hehe
Now dont all rush me to sign up lol.
Who's the Islam believer? Well, one thing that's been discussed on another forum is that of Catholics praying to or "with" dead saints (or their living souls). While the dead can be called up (as shown in the scriptures ~ 1 Samuel 28) it is prohibited by God ~ in other words, we are not to consult the spirits of the dead on behalf of the living: Isaiah 8:19 "When they say to you, 'Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,' should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living? And check out what Unitarians do, which is just like the Catholics: "the faithful both seek contact with the spirits in purgatory and pray for the saints to intercede on their behalf."
The Bible says in 1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,"
Romans 8:26-27 "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."
So we see the Spirit intercedes for us, and also JESUS, as stated in Romans 8:34 "Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us."
I mean, Catholicism has the right foundation of the gospel, but their religious practices must come from the Apocrypha books that are not in our Bible (as a Protestant).
They also call their popes "Father", which is prohibited in the Bible in Matthew 23:9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven."
They also believe Peter is the rock the church was built on, but they don't consider the Greek word for Peter and the Greek word for "upon this rock" I will build My church. They are not the same. Peter is the word Petros meaning "a piece of rock" and rock is Petra meaning "a mass of rock". Petra is used all throughout the New Testament. Look at 1 Cor 10:4 "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ."
They believe the bread and wine is the actual flesh and blood of Jesus and ignore the beginning and ending verse of the very passage they use to back this doctrine up. Look at John 6:48 when Jesus says, "I am the bread of life." Verse 51 then says, "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." Now look at the next few verses they use. Lastly, look at the last verse after those, John 6:58 "This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."
If we were actually eating his very flesh, we would be in violation of Ecclesiastes 4:5 "The fool foldeth his hands together, and eateth his own flesh."
As far as the daily sacrifice being stopped in the prophecy of Revelation, they believe it has to do with the Catholic Church! It has to do with the Jews, for it is in Jerusalem that the antichrist will desecrate the temple and take away the daily sacrifice from the Jews.
Some believe the Catholic Church is the antichrist system, for check this out!: “The Pope is of great authority and power, that he is able to modify, declare, or interpret even divine laws. The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth...” — Lucius Ferraris, in “Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica”, Volume V, article on “Papa, Article II”, titled “Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility”, #30, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.
We know only God can forgive sins, and this is why Jesus was crucified (because He forgave sins). We are to forgive one another, but are not given the ultimate authority over remitting someone's sins where God's concerned. For them to claim the Priest can actually forgive sins seems blasphemous.
There's so much more, but I've given enough to get this rolling.
Don't you ever get bored of so much copying and pasting bible quotes ??? Can't you find your own explanation? Is that so difficult ??
Tantrum, are you being true to your name? If I'm going to refute something scripturally, I'm going to write accurately. This way, there's less room for people to nit-pick dotted i's and crossed t's. I wish more people would scripturally back up what they claim. Sorry you're offended ~ we're off to a great start, aren't we? No scripture in this comment....yeah!!! Now, do you have something substantial to contribute to this religious forum?
I'm not offended at all. And I see you don't know me. I've been contributing to this religious forum. Look around!
I'm glad. This particular thread only has 16 posts (17 now), so that's the context of what I was asking. I checked out some of your other posts ~ are you sure you're on the right thread? lol
I don't think you're going to agree with me but go ahead !
Well, give me something to disagree with :-)
I think copying and pasting Bible quotes is silly, It looks like you can't think for yourself. The Bible was written by men, so those are not God's words. And they have been translated to so many languages, that the real meaning is lost. Not that it matter as it's all myths. you're wasting your time, and mine as well. Good bye!
Thank you for giving me something to disagree with. Three of four (not sure about Islam) all base their doctrines on the Bible. So, you must be in the wrong thread ~~
You are the one asking. .I'm here because I have good maners and always answer the questions
Please forgive me but I'm goina be mean..... Every religion believen in the bible, ...... few can read it.
to the original question??? Christianity Judaism Islam etc..etc. they are all the same if you are worshiping it instead of the God that THEY say that they are representing!!!!!!!!!!
I don't know much about Islam, but this is about foundational doctrines. Does Islam claim Jesus Christ is God in the flesh? Catholics, Protestants and Messianic Jews do. That's one thing that is in common. This would be a hub of serious debate if it involved LDS, RLDS, Universalism, L. Ray Smith of bibletruths.com, gnostics and New Agers, atheists, agnostics, Satan worshipers....the list could go on and on...
as I said efore ... Do we worship it or what "IT" claims to stand for???
Which do you belong to, Jerami? Catholic, Protestant, Messianic Jew, or Islam? Or something else altogether? This is a foundational question as to what type of church you might attend.
If you are asking, Which do I belong to?..... ? "none of the above". I do not belong to any denomination. I'm bought and paid for. I do not have the right to belong to any other. That freudian slip is exactly what I've been trying to bring attention to.
As per ISLAM, one is not Muslim unless believes on Musa, (Moses), Dawood (David), Essa (Jesus and Muhammad and their respective books. However they believe that no one is Allah's child and He has no parent. ALLAH or GOD or ALMIGHTY are the different name for the ULTIMATE POWER OF UNIVERSE and beyond and that is common among Christianity Judaism Islam
So they don't believe Jesus is God in the flesh, right? Thess passages of the Bible is not in their respective books?: Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." or Matthew 1:23 quoting Isaiah 7:14 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." or when Jesus said in John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." Compare that God said to Moses in Exodus 3:14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." There is so much more to prove that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. I have a hub called, "Who Do You Say That I AM?" that gives you so much more proof.
As per ISLAM, one is not Muslim unless believes on Musa, (Moses), Dawood (David), Essa (Jesus and Muhammad and their respective books. However they believe that no one is Allah's child and He has no parent. ALLAH or GOD or ALMIGHTY are the different name for the ULTIMATE POWER OF UNIVERSE and beyond and that is common among Christianity Judaism Islam
JD why don't you ask him what he believes and see if he knows it well enough to present it in a coherent manner?
Well, I first want to thank you for the invitation to stir up the "trouble" here, not that it is the purpose...:-) I have asked Jerami of what his foundational beliefs are, and I also ask Tantrum to tell us...actually, anyone on this forum thus far might wish to say so...or perhaps they should choose some things they find that differ amongst the four various doctrinal foundations, as I have started with Protestantism vs. Catholicism.
I can say that New Testament (Covenant) Christians do not believe we are to keep the Law of Moses any longer. I have several hubs on this topic (Old and New Covenants and the Torah: The Law of Moses), though Messianic Jews may differ on this.
I know Christians have differing beliefs as to the elect or chosen ones, the trinity, soul sleep, life after death, what commandments we are to keep, are we saved just by grace or by faith as well, whether there's an eternal hell, whether water baptism saves a person, whether all the gifts of the spirit are still in use today, NT tithing, inter-racial marriage, whether the "sons of God" in Genesis 3 are fallen angels who procreated with women, whether Lucifer is indeed Satan, whether wives must submit to their husbands and be silent in the church (are not to preach), whether the second coming of Christ has already happened, where we are in end-time Bible prophecy, whether the millennial reign will be on earth or in heaven...those are quite a few differences within the churches. Have I contributed enough to start the ball rolling? Will it roll? We shall see.....
Sweetheart......we already adressed this one. Now you have to look nine blocks up...
So after this one post, you learn the lesson? good !
You're funny, that you like to stir up trouble ~~ but I'm a tough cookie, in that I won't pick up my dollies and go home. I was invited by the author of this thread and I was mannerly in taking up his invitation graciously. I have hubs on all the topics listed above and feel I am fairly equipped enough to be here for reasonable, biblical discussion.
what do you believe?
your concrete opinions?
tell us why you love evil as you said?
what do you do when someone has authority over you?
Can't you see I was joking with that alter ego? I can believe you're so basic !
Awe, common, Tantrum...give us something ~~ you have a basic questionnaire here ~~ I'm looking forward to reading what is going on in that big heart of yours...
I'm not giving you anything. I don't have to discuss or prove anything. You can go on copying and pasting . Have a nice week end !
yeah kinda like Marilyn Manson.....no courage, snotty little thing.
not to bitter ones full of resentments, Poor people without a life !
Nothing more interesting to do ?.Is this break time ?go and resume your copying and pasting
come now son, when we need your permission we will ask for it and then ignore you.
Judah's Daughter, do you call your own father "Dad"? Isn't that clearly prohibited by your interpretation of that verse?
As for the differences between Petros and petra, I've only heard that interpretation from Protestant preachers. Jesus referred to Peter by neither name, actually, but called him Kepha. This was translated into Greek as Cephas and as Petros simply because, as other scholars of a variety of denominations say, Petra is a feminine name and would have been inappropriate for a guy.
And clearly, no matter what I tell you about everlasting life and how asking those who've gone on to that to pray for us is not the same as praying to the dead, it seems you're bound to ignore that and parrot the same spiel about Catholics being necromancers or something.
The real truth is that you cannot be a Catholic without being Christian.
And clearly, no matter what I tell you about everlasting life and how asking those who've gone on to that to pray for us is not the same as praying to the dead, it seems you're bound to ignore that and parrot the same spiel about Catholics being necromancers or something.
Ah, but the verse you like so much said to call no one Father. No exceptions. You and I both think that Jesus wasn't speaking literally there, because you and I both think exceptions can be made. FYI, Catholics also regard priests as earthly fathers, so even by your logic- allowing earthly fathers to be called Father- we're all square.
As for the Hebrew/Aramaic Jesus used, he called Peter Kepha and said "on this rock (kepha) I will build my Church." Whether in the Aramaic He made any distinction between a pebble, a boulder, or a whole batholith nobody really knows. Your guess that He called Peter a pebble is no better than mine that He didn't.
As long as you are not giving him the authority and divinity of God Himself ~ as in forgiving sins?
Ah, but authority to forgive sins was given to humanity. In fact, we are required to forgive as we are forgiven.
As per ISLAM " Allah says that HE is going to forgive if a person fail to do his obligation towards HIM (Allah)such as prayers etc and they are known as Huquq-ullah but HE is not going to forgive those who hurt other human being unless that person forgives the siner.
Yes, we are admonished to forgive others as we are forgiven. However, no earthly man can forgive (remit) sins, except God through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. In other words, if I forgive a murderer for killing my child, it does not mean God has forgiven him. He must repent and seek his forgiveness from God alone.
A person forgiving someone of their wrong-doing does not excuse that person from their accountability to God and asking for forgiveness from God through Jesus Christ. I stated this already to you, that if I forgive a murderer for killing my child, it does not excuse him from God's authority. He must repent and ask forgiveness from God through His Son's shed blood.
As I said to l002981, if I forgive a murderer for killing my child, it does not remit his sin to God. He must repent and ask forgiveness from God through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. We cannot remit sins, nor can a priest. It is different.
No, it was not "on this kepha" or "petra" or "cephas". It was "on this Petra" (the Rock of Jesus Christ) 1 Corinthians 10:4 states this clearly "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." This "Rock" is Petra. Check it out for yourself. Do you have a concordance with the Greek dictionary?
The problem is that Jesus likely did not speak Greek, but Aramaic when he addressed Peter then, so a lot of good a Greek concordance is going to do there.
And that is precisely what the Sacrament of Reconciliation is. We tell the priest our sins, get his advice, and make an Act of Contrition not to the priest, but to God.
And the keys to the Kingdom have everything to do with forgiveness.
I wish people would actually know what Catholic teaching really is before they oppose it.
That's a relief! That's why this thread is here. I understand that priests now don't expect everyone to confess their sins to them anymore, but directly to God is okay, per my Catholic friend. But, I still strongly disagree that any human man can remit or forgive sins with the authority of God. Only God can forgive sins, and this is why Jesus was crucified. He could forgive sins because He was God in the flesh.
Directly to God is okay, but all sin is not only a sin against God, it's a sin against the Church. Ideally, such sin should be confessed to a representative of the Church. Plus, it's harder to avoid personal accountability when you have to articulate the bad things you've done to another person who doesn't already know.
I, Being the devout Christian that I am, would delight in seeing people of varying faiths hold true to the teachings of the Holy Spirit. Which is all inclusive and at the disposal of all mankind. If we moved by that baptism of fire in our daily communications, others would see true love, and not pious doo-doo.
So the forum knows, Onusonus is Mormon. Onusonus, are you LDS or RLDS? There are slight differences between the two, but significant enough to divide them (like Catholicism and Protestantism).
I have refuted Mormonism in that I have a hub about this on my Carrie Bradshaw profile, exposing Joseph Smith and his affiliation with the Masons, and their ceremonies that directly align with the occult (secret), as Onusonus stated. He said that Jesus would not be too happy if He knew Bill revealed sacred temple practices to everyone.
Mormons generally believe God and Jesus had wives and that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers...that's just a start. They believe in pre-existence of themselves before they were born on earth and that they achieve god-hood through works. They will one day be gods. Is this similar to any of the faiths in the title of this forum?
Ah the love continues, I sure can't waith for tomorrows sermon on Jesus "The brother of Satan" because they howl it from the pulpit on a weekly basis.
But lets not hide behind the guise of monotheism, otherwise there would be no need for a distinction between father and son.
So are you LDS or RLDS? Yes, the love is here ~ I still am burdened for your foundational roots ~ for, if what Mormonism teaches is true, the rest of us serve a false Jesus, because they are not one in the same...or could it be vise versa? You guys sound so real that I had to dig to find out if your foundation was solidly Biblical. Not according to what is taught in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine of Covenants...it's a contrary gospel to the Bible's gospel ~ a different Jesus and God altogether. You guys don't tell everyone these things until they find it out little by little, deeper and deeper into the religion.
All anyone has to do is look up publications by ex-Mormons, for they reveal it all. Here's a great start: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20 … s/doom.htm
Here's just the foundation of this publication, and I quote, "The Bible tells us that out of the mouths of two or three witnesses all things must be established. Mormons cite this scripture and believe it. Can we then go to the documents of Witchcraft, Masonry and Mormonism and establish some things?" Read on.
More like dig up dirt, rumors, falsisms, mischaracterizations, misquotes, misunderstandings, etc.
To find out what true Mormons believe ask a real one. or click here http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v … 5e340aRCRD
You seem to go back and forth with admission and denial, which is to be expected. Here's what you said in response to the link I gave above on my hub, "I don't think that Jesus is going to be too happy that Bill shamelessly revealed sacred Temple ordinances to the world for open mockery." To me, that admission.
i will toss this question out to you.
do you think that the one who is called Jesus the Christ, is He God?
do you think God manifested in human form, in the flesh and lived here for a while?
I believe that God the Father and Jesus are two seperat and distinctive beings and are part of the Godhead. Jesus is the Jehovah of the old testament. He and the Father are "one" in purpose and direction to an extent which is a highly synonamous and perfect nature. But they are seperate just as a man should be "One" with his wife in all things, yet they are two seperate beings.
I believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God in the flesh and is still a part of the Godhead, he assisted his Father with the creation of the Heavens and the Earth. He suffered and died as a vicarious sacrifice for the sins of the world, and he is the only name by which mankind is saved in the kingdom of God.
Avoidance....another thing you do. You believe God the Father walked the face of the earth in flesh and bone and achieved His Godhood. Are you going to address this?
How can Jesus be "the" Jehovah of the Old Testament and not the New? He was replaced? Or you believe they are both Jehovah, but not the Holy Spirit?
Both testaments, but your comments about my religion are only derogatory and not for learning. Did i say he wasn't in the new testament?
And you havn't answered my questions.
What questions? About church? I've answered that, just not to your post.
So in essence you are saying that you do not believe in the prophecy of Isaiah concerning the last days?
I believe the prophecy of Isaiah, but this is not the Mormon Church, the Catholic Church, the Islam Church, the Pentecostal Church, the Baptist Church, the Church of Christ, or any other "church". This is the Church founded on the Messiah, the REAL Messiah. Amen.
I am so sick of people who try to shove their religion down other people's throats, just like what you are trying to do here. I am Catholic and do not appreciate you saying anything about my religion OR anyone elses religion for that matter!
well if i was you i would either defend my faith or not.
We're here to compare foundational doctrine (roots). If you can't use the Bible to justify some of the practices of the Catholic church I have addressed, then there's no need to participate in this discussion.
I consider Catholicism rooted in the true God, but I have had to say my piece about it's practices that, of course, Protestants do not participate in. It doesn't mean Protestants are any less Christian than Catholics, in your opinion, right?
Being a Christian means you care about other people's salvation (and hopefully expose some roots to help others with their decisions as to which "church" to entrust their spiritual well-being to). Considering most new converts don't know enough about the Bible, it's our job to teach. I'm not here for a popularity contest. If I was, I would adopt that all faiths lead to God and become a Universalist.
Why not? If someone is wrong (Biblical) you say nothing? Even when somebody Blaspheme? Religion is man made opinion. This is what people criticize.
This is directed to Islam. What do you have to say about this publication? Do you consider this godliness?
"Most in the West know little about the life of Mohammed, the writings of the Qur’an, or the history of Islam. Most are unaware that Mohammed married a six year old girl and consummated the marriage when she was nine, or that he had eleven wives and numerous concubines.
We have seen reports that estimate there are now between 50,000 and 100,000 polygamous Muslim marriages in the U.S.
Muhammed married a six year old bride. But Islam has evolved in 1500 years. In Hamas land, in 2009, the brides are almost seven.
Hamas sponsored a mass wedding for four hundred and fifty couples. Most of the grooms were in their mid to late twenties; most of brides were under ten.
The International Center for Research on Women now estimates that there are 51 million child brides now living on planet earth and almost all in Muslim countries.
Twenty-nine percent of these child brides are regularly beaten and molested by their husbands in Egypt; twenty six percent receive similar abuse in Jordan.
Every year, three million Muslim girls are subjected to genital mutilation, according to UNICEF. This practice has not been outlawed in many parts of America.
The Islamic practice of pedophilia dates back to the prophet Muhammad, who amassed eleven wives and many concubines after the death of his first wife Khadijah in 619 A.D.
Pedophilia was not only practiced by Muhammad but also sanctioned by the Quran. In its discussion of the waiting period required to determine if a wife is pregnant before divorce, the sacred text says, "If you are in doubt concerning those of your wives who have ceased menstruating, know that their waiting period shall be three months. The same shall apply to those who have not yet menstruated"(65:4).
A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate; sodomizing the child is OK. If a man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl's sister. . . It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband's house rather than her father's house. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.
Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, Tahrirolvasyleh, volume 4 (Gom, Iran: Darol Elm, 1990), p. 186."
Now i know that quoting scripture is shunned in these here parts but since we're over simplifying the Mormon doctrine of Exhaltation let's see what the Bible says about it.
Inherrit the kingdom prepared for you Mat 25: 34
heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ Rom 8:17
Receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away 1 pet 5:4
Grant to sit with me in my throne Rev 3:21
He that overcometh shall inherrit all. Rev 21:7
Sounds like biblical doctrine to me..
That's enough to deceive any innocent person exposed to Christianity that you guys are authentic. But, in reading the link I just provided above, it's quite the contrary, when you get down to the roots. It's not of the same tree of life. Satan quotes the word of God, too ~~ but, you know you have other books that have changed or "corrected" the Bible. You saw the publication, and you did not deny anything it stated. In fact, here's exactly what you said in response on that hub, "I don't think that Jesus is going to be too happy that Bill shamelessly revealed sacred Temlpe ordinances to the world for open mockery."
There isn't enough time in the day to filter through all that crap.
ok, so does that make you the SAME as The Most High God?
or are you only sharing with Him?
Absolutely not. only in title as a joint heir with Christ, to receive a crown of rightousness. not better than God or equal to God. Rather a participant in the marvelous works of creation which he may have in store for us and the rest of the host of Heaven in our post-mortal existance. shareing only for simplicity's sake.
Well, I'm heading off to bed. Will have to pick up tomorrow. Good night everyone. And Shaul, you can jump in and take over your own thread here soon....I know I have a lot to say, but this is not my thread, brother. God bless.
Now let's talk about the prophecy of Isaiah 2;2. Why don't you go to ghurch again?
did you not learn to deal with sarcasm in the military?
1 This is a vision that Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:
2 In the last days, the mountain of the Lord’s house
will be the highest of all—
the most important place on earth.
It will be raised above the other hills,
and people from all over the world will stream there to worship.
and what about it?
Christianity was around before Catholics were, and also before Islam. People confuse this fact and now Catholics think they are Christians and Islam thinks the Roman Catholic Church is Christianity, but true believers know the difference.
I love this - true believers! - Are you listening, Mike? Here's a guy who doesn't think you're a Christian
Yeah it's quite the laugh isn't it Paraglider.
What does mean Christian? It means Christ-like. The Christ is WORD, LOGOS in the flesh. Then what is the fuss about the Bible? Read it and enjoy it.
Really? The Catholic Church traces its origins not back to Constantine, but all the way back to the Apostles and to Jesus Christ. I don't think there was any Christian Church prior to that.
Can someone tell me how Kepha, Cephus, (Petros), aka Peter started the first church?
Another question: What is the definition of worship? Do you think the Pope is worshiped? Note that man was created a little lower than the angels and yet notice what happens in Rev 22:8-9 "I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. And he said to me, 'Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book; worship God."
And what of the scripture that says we are all priests and kings? (1 Pet 2:9; Rev 1:6) All saints are saints. Anyone who is saved. There are not levels of "sainthood", that some should be "canonized" as the Catholic church does, thus the ones they pray to (or with, as you say). Yes, there will be those who are "least in the kingdom of heaven", but that is God's decision, not the Pope's.
I wonder how Peter will measure up? He lost faith while walking on water and sank; he was rebuked as Satan by Jesus; he denied Jesus three times and was crucified upside-down. Hardly equal with the Rock of Christ who was sinless.
No Catholic believes Peter started the first church, but that Jesus instituted the Church and selected Peter to serve as His deputy (what Vicar of Christ really means), because Peter was the first of the Apostles to articulate the faith that Jesus is the Messiah and has the words of Everlasting Life. It was Peter, not the other Apostles, whom Christ requested to "Feed my sheep."
Furthermore, Apostolic succession is documented in Acts of the Apostles, when the Apostles elected a replacement for Judas. There is documented evidence, albeit extra-Biblical, that the Church found it important enough to continue Peter's line of succession upon his death that they prayerfully elected Linus the next pope.
To say that Christianity precedes the Catholic Church is to ignore historic record. Even most Protestants who know their history know that the Catholic Church is the original, and their denominations are offshoots.
Valerie, you said, "Furthermore, Apostolic succession is documented in Acts of the Apostles, when the Apostles elected a replacement for Judas. There is documented evidence, albeit extra-Biblical, that the Church found it important enough to continue Peter's line of succession upon his death that they prayerfully elected Linus the next pope."
So Linus means Matthias? Acts 1:26 "And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." Seems to me, Jesus told all the apostles to go into all the world and preach, make disciples of and baptize them. Not just Peter.
No, Linus doesn't mean Matthias. Matthias was Judas' successor. Linus was Peter's immediate successor, who was followed by Cletus, Clement I, Evaristus, Alexander I, Sixtus I, et cetera,.
The election of Matthias to replace Judas means that the idea of Apostolic succession has Biblical precedent.
But Linus was not part of the 12 apostles, as you illuded. Did you read my comment earlier that the New Jerusalem includes 12 gates naming 12,000 of each of the 12 tribes of Israel and 12 foundation stones, which are the 12 apostles (not including Linus or any further successors, by the way) and that Jesus is the chief corner stone? Does this point to the "Church" being the Catholic church only? Absolutely not.
i like The Lord's "replacement"...man named Shaul.
in seriousness though, many apostles were picked, we just have the names of many of them and some wrote letters.
The Bible, however was not written by other than the original apostles (except for Paul, who was not one of the original 12). False religions have had "prophets" or "apostles" that have taken away or added to the Holy Bible, which is an abomination, if you ask me. And if God intended the twelve to always be twelve, where are the successors of each of the other 11? Are they not the foundation stones?
if you were talking to me then i was not talking about any false apostles, (that's why i said "them" meaning the true) the false existed back then too.
false prophets and apostles have always been around no doubt.
they are easy to pick off if one has discernment of spirits too.
Exactly, that is what a denomination is, a fraction, part of the truth. The Protestant reformation did not add anything, it took away 7 books and part of Daniel and part of Esther out of the Bible and most of the 7 Sacraments, including the one we need for salvation (John 6:54-55).
Well actually it did add something, about 3,000 different interpretations, thanks to Luther's new doctrine of personal interpretation and sola scriptura (the Bible alone).
Man if you guys don't get your act together soon you will be still protesting Jesus Christ's church when He returns.
Judah's Daughter to be a follower of Jesus Christ does not mean to continually refute things that don't fit your personal interpretation. Seek your own salvation first. Try looking in a mirror.
Strange, I'd never made that connection (with denominator) before. Good thought, thanks
Wrong my friend. Bible, neither Luther said about personal interpretation. Bible prohibits it. You mean personal involvement.
There were 95 thesis Luther (who was monk - Catholic) posted which was non-biblical, traditional. Apocrypha were considered as Old Testament books, but they are not written in Hebrew as expected but in Greek. They are not in original Hebrew Bible - Tanakh. They were written after 100 AD when church started to be corrupted. They are fiction and not valid since they are just fiction stories.
Tell me now what you would do when you find that Catholic Church took out second Commandment form Ten and split tenth to two? Would you be happy? It is about idolatry. Look into the Bible. I love Catholics but not changing Bible.
It seems Luther didn't believe Jesus either when He said He would send His Holy Spirit to guide the Church. That is why 2 Thessalonians 2:14 reads "Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle."
Besides placing the 7 books and part of Daniel and part of Esther from the Old Testament in the back of his Bible unnumbered Luther also placed Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation apart at the end of his New Testament in 1522 (Source). These four New Testament books were eventually placed back in the proper order 80 years later but the Old Testament books were completely removed around 1825 by the English Bible College.
From the Jewish Virtual Library we read this about the Tanakh, "These books were included in the Jewish canon by the Talmudic sages at Yavneh around the end of the first century CE" We also see that since the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls at Qumran in 1947 "They have been a major focus of scholarly and general interest for the last half-century. Among the Dead Sea Scrolls were a number of manuscripts of the Apocrypha ..." "mostly in Hebrew, with a lesser number in Aramaic and even fewer in Greek."
"Coins at Qumran show people lived there from about 135 B.C. to the Roman destruction in 68 A.D." and "God promised to preserve His word in Isaiah 59:21; 40:8; Psalm 119:89, and 1 Peter 1:23-25." are both quotes from this Overview of the Dead Sea Scrolls. So it looks like the manuscripts found at Qumran predate the Jewish canon by the Talmudic sages.
The Septuagint or simply "LXX" which includes the Apocrypha were translated from Hebrew to Greek in stages between the 3rd and 1st centuries BC in Alexandria. "The early Christian Church used the Greek texts since Greek was a lingua franca of the Roman Empire at the time, and the language of the Church. In addition the Church Fathers tended to accept Philo's account of the LXX's miraculous and inspired origin. Furthermore, the New Testament writers, when citing the Jewish scriptures or when quoting Jesus doing so, freely used the Greek translation, implying that the Apostles and their followers considered it reliable."
So the Septuagint (LXX) also predates the Jewish canon by the Talmudic sages. And so it looks like Luther would have been wise to follow traditions like the Bible says.
I guess that is why this online version of the King James Bible includes the Apocrypha or better known to Catholics as the Deuterocanonical books.
The Septuagint was translated into the Latin Vulgate in the 5th-century by Jerome. The English College at Rheims and Douay, France translated the Latin Vulgate into English between 1582 and 1609, which is called the Douay-Rheims Bible. For all of the above reasons I do not think an "improved" English version of the Bible can be found, whether published by Protestants or Catholics.
But all this bickering is not what Christians are supposed to do. As the Bible says we are to be one body in Christ. How do we put the pieces back together?
One thing I know for sure if we are at all concerned about our salvation is that we are to receive the Holy Eucharist as Jesus Christ mentioned in John 6:54-55 (verses 53-54 in the KJB).
John 6:54-55 "Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day."
The Holy Eucharist has been offered daily for nearly 2,000 years.
Source of image
I would like to straight record. In first Church in Jerusalem overseer was James, Jesus half brother and not Peter. Peter was traveling with his wife on mission journeys.
Notice this: Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars... Paul does not call first Peter but James. Another scriptures: Act 12:17, 21:18. Gal. 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
The true church isn't a building, but a group of like minded believers. I know that there are true Christians who get upset when people claim that the church didn't form until Catholicism begin. Look at the book of Revelation when John is to write to the seven churches of Asia; these churches were around before the Catholic Church.
HOOWANTSTONO is right; true Christians know that the Catholic church is just a Satanic Counterfeit. I know that quite a few believers of universal reconciliation (not Unitarian Universalism) despise the Catholic church because it was they who introduced the concept of never ending Hell; the concept of the trinity; the confession; praying to the dead saints; Christmas; Easter; and Halloween. They were also responsible for the Crusades "Believe as we do or die!"
True Christianity precedes Catholicism and Islam.
Santcus, HOO didn't say Catholicism was a Satanic counterfeit. That is your opinion. We've already discussed hell, but we can get into that again if you wish. Let's discuss the trinity. Do you believe Jesus is God in the flesh? Do you believe the Holy Spirit is God? That God is [a] Spirit? If so, then you believe in the trinity. If not, then you believe in a trinity of three separate entitites, or you believe two are higher than the third...what is it exactly that you believe?
Have you studied the definition of God in the Old Testament (Elohiym) elohiym (el-o-heem’); PLURAL of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but spec. used (in the plural, thus especially with the article “the”) of the supreme God. Or how about the name Jesus (Iesous) Iesous (ee-ay-sooce') meaning Jehoshua, the name of our Lord and two (three); same as Hebrew H3091 Yehowshuwa meaning Jehovah saved. Or, how about the word ONE: The word “one” is the Greek word #1520 heis (as in one another) and is reflected in 1 Corinthians 6:16, which states that the husband and wife are “no longer two, but ONE”. This word “ONE” is the Greek word #3391 mia, the feminine of #1520.
I, too do not believe we are to confess our sins as to be forgiven (remission of) by any man. We confess to ask forgiveness when we've sinned against a brother, and we are to forgive others as we are forgiven. This does not negate or release them from their responsiblity to God. We are also not to pray to or with dead saints (the souls of). It is forbidden by God in the Word.
Christmas means mass of Christ and we celebrate the birth of Christ and give gifts as the wise men brought to Jesus. Jesus told us to love one another as He loved us. He was the greatest gift God gave us. Easter should be called Passover, and Christians celebrate the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are man-made, but unless one has faith in them, it does not carry a religious connotation. Halloween falls under the same category. I personally have my child go to harvest parties at the church. The Word says if someone thinks something is sinful, it is sinful to that person. God ultimately judges the attitude of the heart.
I agree, that I was appauled to see the Catholic church killed anyone (and multitudes) for not following their doctrine! That was horrific and wrong!! That is God's job ~ His wrath will come on all those who refuse Him, not the Catholic chuch, "for Pete's sake" (punn intended).
I understand Catholics believe there is no salvation outside of Catholic church. Is the church Savior or Jesus? But I still love Catholics.
I've read his hubs about it though, and he strongly hints to it.
I believe that there is one Godhead with God the Father, and God the Son - Jesus Christ; two seperate entities with the exact same mindset. The Holy Spirit is their power.
You would think that, but don't you find it the least bit bizarre that Christmas falls on December 25th? If you don't understand the significance, December 25th is said to be the date of birth of several of the sun gods. Jesus Christ was equated with Apollo the Greek god of the sun.
If people want to celebrate Christmas that's fine with me, but anymore, I can't associate a holiday that was essentially a pagan holiday and is now a capitalist holiday with Jesus.
Except Christians still call it Easter, which may be derived from Ishtar a pagan fertility moon goddess.
Santa Claus is based off of St. Nicholas, and every culture seems to have some form of him. The Easter Bunny; rabbits are said to be symbols of fertility.
Halloween is just, I don't celebrate it anymore; not for personal convictions, but the idea of a holiday that ultimately amounts up to "long ago people dressed up so that dead spirits wouldn't do horrible things to them" seems stupid to me. If someone wants to celebrate it, I won't stop them, just don't enforce it on me.
Yes, as he says, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay"
Regarding the holidays, Satan has a way of destroying what is meant for Christ by claiming them as his own. Look at the rainbow, just for example! It was a symbol of God's promise never to flood the earth again, and now it's a gay (homosexual) icon. Amazing ~~
does anyone think The Messiah came to start something called Christianity?
do you think He went to services that resemble Christian ones?
so you think He approves of anything that goes on that has replaced the way that He worshiped?
i am asking because when you come to a King to worship Him, you do not change the worship to make it fit your opinions, ideas and feelings. kind of making it seeker friendly to you and the people you want to attract.
He being King of The Jews and all, i find it odd that men would make a service and community that looks about as Jewish as Voodooism.
if i go into a church, any church, of any denomination, i have no idea they are worshiping the King of The Jews. how could i, no evidence in the whole building.
and no, i am not talking about an alter outside with fire and animals or circumcising all the males.
seems like Christianity has removed 100% anything resembling the Jewishness of The King they say they worship and replaced it with a concoction of men and women.
just some observations, no need to have a cow, but you can reply.
If the Messianic Jews could truly accept saved Gentiles, in that we were not raised with the 613 mitzvot in the Torah, let alone the rabbinic laws, we would have an awesome congretation of one body. It's a cultural thing. We haven't had any Messianic Jews attend this forum, unless you are one? More and more Gentile Christians (and no, believers weren't called Christians in the very beginning) are learning about the Jewish prophecies and understanding the New Testament fulfills the Old Testament and they are both linked together perfectly.
The only reason we have doctrinal divisions is man's worship of the religion (their interpretation), not their common ground and worship of God alone, of which Jerami was on point.
This is my frustration in finding a church home, though we are told we are the temple of the Holy Spirit and my worship is with God. Every church I've gone to either preaches to tickle the ears, or misinterprets scripture (as I mentioned before, I had a pastor teach we would be a literal toenail or doorknob in heaven). All the things I listed as differences are doctrinal foundations. If I were a man, I would get a seminary degree (and hope I'm not misled even there) and start preaching. I know I couldn't be a Catholic; that's for sure. I also know there is a vast cultural difference in Messianic Jewish congregations and Gentile Christians. Pentecostals can go off the map. Baptists are too conservative (no gifts of the Spirit used today); Church of Christ believes water baptism saves and you must be baptized into their church....shall I go on?
For me, I have more peace staying out of the organized church system. I study the Bible, pray and worship God. That's the best I can do for now.
I wrote a 90-something page term paper in college on just how much Jewish liturgy not only influenced Catholic liturgy, but even the development of sacred music in western Europe. Hallel, the thrice Kadosh, Hamotzi, Kiddush, even aspects of the Passover and Simchat Torah celebrations can all be seen in some form at every Mass. Even the reason plainchant was used by the Church for centuries was because, since the destruction of the Temple, the Jews had abandoned the use of instrumental accompaniment in their liturgy. I guess I'll have to try to find that paper again.
Messianic Jewish believers use music in their services.
very nice stuff too.
Not all use instrumental music in their services.
At any rate, while I have nothing against well-played instrumental music, I also find plainchant very stirring.
me too...i like both....do both
do you like solo piano music?
I enjoy listening to instrumental music.
Recommend any good plainchant CDs? or can I find some online? Been a while since I've listened to any.
"if"~~you were a man?
why let that stop you, if you feel like you need to preach and teach people i think millions of women are out there too.
if men care to listen, they will show up too.
i would not let that stop me if i was female.
i would not insist on any certain audience either, children are a great audience too.
the Bible clearly tell the older women to instruct the younger ones and i am pretty sure you know this.
if men teach men and women teach women but the men care to go hear the women or vice versa...then great!!!
but don't let that stop you otherwise you'll answer for making excuses and be miserable until then.
It is the desire of my heart, and though I don't see a way to get into seminary (financially), I will trust that God has His plan. Sometimes I don't feel worthy to do this, but I know He is the One who accomplishes His will through us, if we are willing and obedient.
seminary~~~cemetery = same thing.
why go there only to unlearn most of it?
spending $1,000's on a serving of whale water.
worthy? who is that? someones last name?
i recall ignorant fishermen doing a fine job, what's your excuse today?
Praise the Lord! Somehow, though, I don't think those fishermen were unlearned in the Torah, for they were Jewish, right? I'll have to research this some more. Even Paul was highly learned in the Torah.
Then I shall just look for the opportunity to be a witness and rightly divide the Word (with the leading of the Holy Spirit, of course). HubPages is a forum; it's tough, but I haven't quit yet...
gosh, a 130 posts in less than 24 hours
good topic question maybe?
i am a little slow perhaps, but why do many people just copy a quote and not add even an smile face? does it mean they like it?
you have enough to go on, just go, take what you have, get some lumps and a black eye and move along.
you don't appear to be a novice.
if you are waiting to know "enough"...i will say this.
“There is so much more I want to tell you, but you can’t bear it now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard..."
He also said in another place to not concern yourself with what you will say but that you will be reminded by Him what to say.
what i am telling you, is that it is NOT your job.
your job is to go and speak. He did not say, after you are well educated.
fishermen were just that, they had little education, but a foundation in the scriptures for sure. do you not have that much?
For some, being carried about by every worldly whim of doctrine is satisfactory. But should people cease looking for the truth because they find it inconvenient?
Have you searched outside the Mormon faith ever, Onusonus? I think one should not speak hypocritically. I've even challenged a traditional "Christian" teaching and have been told I'm of the devil because of it. I currently have a forum challenging anyone to prove Lucifer is "the Dragon, the Serpent of Old, the Devil and Satan." Thus far, no one has done it. Even Jesus was accused of being the Devil by His own. I am true to the Word, no matter what...in the best I can do, with all my heart, soul, mind and strength, for this is the First Commandment of God (New Covenant).
Why do I have to be labled a hypocrite because the Lord has already revealed the truth to me? My faith is grounded in Christ like a house built upon a rock.
Isaiah 40:8 "Isaiah 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever."
1 Peter 1:25 states, "But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."
Malachi 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I change not."
Mormonism CHANGED the Bible, the Word of God in the 1800's.
Let this BURN into your HEART: GALATIANS 1:8 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
2 Cor 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."
Lucifer (hey-lel) means "morning star" and Jesus Christ is the "morning star". Lucifer is the anti-Christ who claims to be JESUS!!
The Word has been spoken to you and you are without excuse. Repent and come to the Light, the REAL JESUS CHRIST.
Judah's Daughter from that other thread you have proven that there is no sense in discussing anything with you. You just completely overlook any Biblical proof anyone gives you and come back with your Tim LaHaye manual of attack. There is not one iota that you could give to anyone that would benefit their salvation.
Very "christian" of you Judah's Daughter. But you have nothing to worry about cause you think you will be raptured before the tribulation and before your so-called 1,000 year reign of Christ.
i know that the one who calls himself the truth, he found me 3 decades ago.
so i do not "look for the truth" he already found me.
i do carry a sharp two~edged sword though.
i discern the truth in all things.
take captive every thought and every word that men / women speak.
make it submit to the mind of the Messiah.
that's what i do is all, very simple.
I believe that the priesthood of God has been restored to the earth by the hands of his servents. It is the only force on earth that reaches through the veil of death. With this priesthood comes the privileges of the ministering of angels, and the gifts of healing and of the holy ghost. This sovereign power, this hallowed prerogative is the source of all authority throughout the church, without it, we can have a church in name only, a church lacking in authority to perform the ordinances of God.
I believe that a man must be called of god, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the gosple and administer in the ordinances thereof.
As was the prophet Joseph who saw Christ standing at the right hand of God. And he was annointed with the priesthood by the hands of Peter, James and John, John the Baptist, Moses, and Elijah.
I do believe in the REAL JESUS.
We don't speak the same language ~~ as for me, unless the Spirit tells me to continue in futile discussion with you, I shant.
I am not a Mormon and have laid hands on the sick and received knowledge as to the illness, saw the manifestation of the illness (that had been in effect for two years) and the healing of that illness. I am not a priest by man's terms, but we are all priests in God's terms. His Spirit does the work, not man. This goes to show you that the Church is of God, not of Mormonism ~ the church that mimics the real thing, but whose gospel is contrary of the original gospel and therefore, is accursed. Name the spirits anything you want (Peter, James, John, John the Baptist, Moses and Elijah...who else?) Oh, Joseph saw the Father...the Bible says no man can see the Father and live (Exodus 33:20). Jesus Christ is the express image of God the Father because He is God, not separate (only as the begotten Son of man), but is nonetheless, Immanuel (God with us). Enough said.
does your religion focus only on proving that EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG, despite the fact that you never feel obligated to set foot inside the house of the Lord, you baptize your self, laid hands on yourself and ordained yourself a priestess, blessed your own sacrament, and served it to yourself, read yourself a sermon, and googled a bunch of anti Mormon, Catholic, and Muslam propaganda to justify your lack of authority?
All authority has been given to Jesus, the real Jesus and He anoints His people. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit and He makes us to be priests. God blesses all His saints do; my hands are His hands; my mouth is His mouth; my body is His body; when we are in Christ, we are one with Him and walk in His authority, for no one else has authority but Him.
Thus the Devil wrought mighty miracles to lull the children of men into carnal security saying all is well, zion is prosperous, all is well, and thus the devil cheats their souls.
Don't act like you wern't gonna say it.
Pharaoh's sorcerers could do the same things as Moses, but one was of God and one was of the Devil. Jesus was called the Devil, too. Signs and wonders follow them that believe; we don't follow after signs and wonders.
I didn't baptize myself; Jesus did. I haven't claimed to have laid hands on myself, but if God told me to, I would. How does one ordain oneself? As oft as we eat this bread and drink this cup, we remember Him. I can take communion anytime I feel so led, by myself with my Lord. Reading the Bible is freely given to us, and sermons do result from my mouth, I would say (the Word says, "your daughters shall prophesy").
Do you have this type of personal relationship with Jesus Christ? What if one was in prison alone...do they not worship because they are not in a "church" congregation or building? Or, there's no "pastor" or "priest" present? That's the joy of salvation. We are filled with the Holy Spirit and walk in faith in that Spirit of God. It can be one-on-one with our Lord, and we build up the body of Christ, which is not any particular "church" (congregation or building).
I didn't google anything about Catholicism or Islam. Only Mormonism. I received that article about Islam via email from a brother in the Lord, quite by accident, but to the glory of God. How can I prevent being deceived by Mormonism if I don't find information? Do you think I have books in my house about false doctrines? Why would I? That's the wonderful thing about Google.
By the way you say that we change the Bible, Which one?
ASV, American Translation, AMP, LBLA, CEV, Douay-Rheims, Emphasized Bible, ESV, Geneva Bible New Testament, GW, GNT, HCSB, JER, Jewish New Testament, KJV, Lamsa Bible, Richmond Lattimore Translation of the New Testament, LIV, MES, Modern Language Bible -- Berkley Version, Moffatt Bible, Montgomery New Testament, NAB, NASB, NCV, NEB, NIV, NIrV, NJB, New Jewish Translation, NKJV, New Life Bible, NLT, NRSV, J. B. Phillips' New Testament in Modern English, Reina Valera, REB, RSV, Simple English Bible, Twenty-first Century King James Version, Tyndale New Testament, Weymouth New Testament, Worrell New Testament, Wuest Expanded Translation New Testament, Young's Literal Translation.
nice to see you 2 are keeping this alive all by yourselves.
i have like 6 topics open right now that i started :lol"
IMO Catholicism within Christianity.... why Catholicism Vs Christianity?
All authority is given through Christ to his prophets, by the laying on of hands. "And no man taketh this honor upon himself, but he that is called of God as was Aaron." Heb 5;4
Your first sentence is added and is not in the Word. While this passage is specifically speaking of the change in priesthood, making Jesus the High Priest (and only He is) according to the order of Melchizedek, everyone who is saved is the called of God. The called, the chosen and the faithful. (Rev 17:14)
Romans 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
All authority was given to Jesus upon His death and resurrection, per Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.'"
Jesus then gives us authority over evil, as shown in Luke 10:19 "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you."
Yes, you're a youngster, too! Thanks ~ I've learned something new
I just recalled, my dad was given the book of Mormon, and he said that he couldn't even get through the first book, because he couldn't decide if he wanted to laugh or cry.
If I wanted to, I know I could easily grab this book, and compare it to the Holy Bible; find the errors in the book of Mormon.
I think you would be great at doing this. You do really dig into the Word. In fact, I'd really appreciate it if you could take over witnessing/conversing with Onusonus. It's pretty well a done-deal where I'm concerned.
Would you care to take over?
I think you would be great at doing this. You do really dig into the Word. In fact, I'd really appreciate it if you could take over witnessing/conversing with Onusonus. It's pretty well a done-deal where I'm concerned.
Would you care to take over?
Ha ha, if the book weren't packed away then I'd do it tonight.
But, this is aimed at Onusonus; can you go to the Holy Bible and point out where it says the following?
1. That Jesus Christ and Lucifer were brothers
2. That the ultimate reward is to become a god
3. That God the Father was once a man who learned the ways of Mormon, and became creator and God of this earth.
4. That Jesus Christ had three wives, and a number of children
5. That those angels who didn't fight as valiantly against Lucifer and his angels were born as black people
6. That Joseph Smith is ranked higher than Jesus Christ himself
Sanctus these accusations are easily explainable though I'm sure that you would rather stick to believing them than subscribing to what LDS actually believe.
So lets start;
1.Jesus Christ and Lucifer were brothers;
This is another statment intended more to sensationalize beliefs and polarize rather than lead to meaningful communication.Latter-day Saints do indeed believe that in a meaningful sense Jesus, angels (including the fallen angel Lucifer), and Adam and all his sons are sons of God—and hence, brothers. The Bible corroborates our respective sonships. No Christian should disagree with that. Perhaps the criticism stems from the fact that Latter-day Saints happen to believe that all the sons of God existed together pre-existently? However, this belief need not change the general equation for brotherhood upon which all Christians agree. Suffice it to say that Latter-day Saints believe Jesus Christ had a unique status as God in the pre-existence—a status other sons of God did not have! Jesus Christ's earliest introduction in Scripture uniquely embraced by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints makes that clear—... one among them that was like unto God -- Abraham 3:24–28). None other had Christ's status. And that unique status Jesus Christ had in the pre-existence means Lucifer's brotherhood and our brotherhood with Him there were exactly the same as our common brotherhood with Him is based on His dwelling on the Earth. Brothers yes. Different yes.
2.the ultimate reward is to become a god.
Is it not written ye are Gods?
3. God the Father was once a man who learned the ways of Mormon, and became creator and God of this earth.
Mormon is an angel of God not his teacher. The only aspect of this about which we are certain is that God the Father underwent a mortal experience like Christ did. Jesus was, however, God before He underwent His mortal experience, and the Father may have been too. We simply don't know. But there is no biblical evidence which describes details of God's existance before the creation.
4. Jesus Christ had three wives, and a number of children.
this is not canonized doctrine of the church and has hardly been touched on though somone might have made some bleak refrence to Jesus being a polygamist over a hundred years ago, the idea shouldn't be heritical since several of the old testament prophets were.
5. those angels who didn't fight as valiantly against Lucifer and his angels were born as black people.
never even heard that one.
Joseph Smith never taught the idea that those born with black skin were neutral or less valiant during the war in heaven. Brigham Young, when asked this question, repudiated the idea.
Despite the explicit denial of this concept by Brigham Young, the idea that people born with black skin as a result of their behavior in the pre-existence was used by several 20th century Church leaders in order to try and provide an explanation for the priesthood ban. they later retracted the notion
6. Joseph Smith is ranked higher than Jesus Christ himself.
You will have to provide a little bit of LDS doctrine which supports this notion, because I, like every other Latter Day Saint in existence, never heard or believed it. I'm raising the BS flag on that one.
in my arrogant opinion.........
someone will use it now
in this corner we have the lion
in this corner we have the soldier
Just because I can't quote the bible I shouldn't take part in the conversation? WOW like I said so sick of bible thumpers.
All religions are speical in their own way with their own beliefs. It's not right for ANYONE to talk bad about any religion!
If you see revealing truth as talking bad, then you obviously do not love the truth? The truth doesn't tickle the ears. But for some, knowing the truth will set them free.
If you wish to promote Catholicism, here's your forum...
I'm not going to "promote" my religion as you say it. Again ALL RELIGIONS ARE SPECIAL IN THEIR OWN WAYS AND BELIEFS! Try learning to read what others write before you respond to someone. Seriously! The truth is in what people take it from THEIR OWN RELIGION! Not from what otheres say it is.
So you think all religions lead to salvation? Are you not concerned for others of differing gods even?
I believe all religions are paths to salvation and there is just one god called by different names due to different languages.
Nope like I said The truth is in what people take from their own religion. Even if they have a differnt name for God or a different god all together.
it's their religion, their belief, and their way to salvation. if it makes them happy then I am happy for them and will not question AT ALL what they believe.
except when they try to burn you or behead you.
If you are a true Christian (or do you claim such?), you would know that Jesus Christ is the only Way, the Truth and the Life, and that NO ONE comes to the Father except through Him. If He comes soon, as seems to be the talk of the internet and churches all over the place, will you stand confidently before the Lord that you did your part to witness the gospel of salvation through Christ to all that you could? Or would you be comfortable knowing you are saved, but not caring about the eternal hell others will face because you didn't do your part? I'm not ashamed to talk about hell. It's in the Bible, I did an in-depth study on it, and believe it is real, as real as heaven.
You sound like a Universalist, and if you are, I can see why you have the perception you have.
If I am a true Catholic? Oh pelase just because I don't go around preaching the Bible and all that doesn't mean I'm not a true Catholic. Unlike you I know how to Coexist with other religions. I don't fight, I learn from others and we compare what is different. We don't say you're right or your wrong.
And yea I believe in Heaven and hell to but not because I learned it from the BIBLE or IN SCHOOL
Get over yourself child and stop trying to make everyone believe what you believe. Let others believe what they want.
and yea I am turning more into a universalist because of my BELIEFS and how more OPEN MINDED THEY ARE UNLIKE BIBLE THUMPERS LIKE YOU!
Will you stand confidently before the Lord that you spoke the truth in love to help others find salvation through Jesus Christ; sounds to me like you'll say, "Gosh, I wish I would have said something; that poor soul is going to hell because I just accepted that all roads lead to God and I wanted that person to be happy." God says that "friendship with the world is hostility toward God". Did you know that?
So, what I say may make some mad, but for others it will save their souls (not my religion, but knowing the roots of all religions, including mine). Jesus is the root and offspsring of David, the bright and morning star. THE ROOT. Educated decisions are better than unlearned ones. The Bible says, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."
The Bible says the world will hate us as well, because of Him. You hate me, you hate Him. I'm merely speaking the Bible, not my own opinions. If you see my opinions anywhere (other than my comment about Mormonism being like a woman's dyed hair, that is only exposed when we see the roots)...please tell me. Thank you.
I know all about my religion child. I am merely expanding that knowledge and being what I think God wants me to be. NOT a Bible Thumper who can't think for themselves unless it is written in the bible, but someone who accepts everyone for who they are, for what they believe, and not try shoving my belife down their throats like what you are keen on doing.
And stating quotes from the Bible is also preaching your opinion, showing people that you follow the bible word for word, that your head is stuck in a book (scary as I say that since I love reading) and you aren't seeing the world around you. YOu're not seeing the people around you and you are definitely NOT seeing that God has made everyone different religion wise, beliefe wise, thought wise, look wise and so much more.
So don't go preaching to me, Judah's Daughter. Unlike you I have seen that God wants me to read in between the lines of the Bible, get my head out of the book, and see others for who HE has made them.
Like the Apostle Paul said in Galatians 4:16 "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"
The only thing I've done is address non-biblical practices in the churches here, which is the whole reason for this forum. Do you see common ground in the roots of Mormonism, Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam and Judaism here? Are they all the same?
Shaul started this thread and invited me to get the ball rolling. Haven't heard back from our Muslim friend. Sanctus asked questions of Onusonus, who hasn't yet answered. The most activity has been between Catholicism and me, the only representative of the Protestant faith here ~ because I don't see a lot posted by Shaul...he's got a whole lot of threads going, I guess.
If you'd all prefer ~~ I have more important things to do and you guys can carry on....have fun :-)
"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line;" This does not sound like reading between the lines to me....His Spirit does lead us and simply knowing the Word doesn't save someone, but it is our rock upon which we stand. Satan quotes the Word, too (sometimes accurately), and yet he leaves stuff out or twists the interpretation, which can be proven by Bible scholars. It can't be discerned by those who don't know the Word, however. That's the dangerous thing. Satan is the destroyer, and the Bible says, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."
Anyhow, I'm outta here ~ I think we have enough going on with the participants to keep this going strong.
Sorry for jumping in. Where is in the Bible that say we have to read the Bible between the lines? This is how religion starts.
Most Bible fanatics haven't understood Jesus message of the kingdom of god being within.
And what is your foundational belief, mahitmisra? Islam, Judeo-Christian, Catholic-Christian, Mormon, Universalist? Who is God to you? Who is Jesus to you?
I am with Mohit on this one. People like you who do nothing but preach and point fingers have completely lost the plot. You do not even seem to be aware of the animosity and hatred you create.
I see you have changed from using your real name though.Do you really think you are going to spread the hatred any better using this user name than the one you were using?
Hmmmm....if you read the entire thread, and my original profile of Carrie Bradshaw, you would know this is not a hidden fact. Carrie Bradshaw (my first profile) ~ and my name is Adelia, by the way, deals with false doctrines. My Judah's Daughter profile deals with Protestant-Judeo-Christian doctrine. Yes, this is stirring up discussion, but I don't believe I've been "hateful" toward anyone, just straight forward. If anyone thinks I've been hateful, I apologize.
Jesus said He did not come to bring peace, but to bring a sword. The Bible is His sword. If it stirs up trouble, that's not my doing; it's all a matter of the heart of the listener. Those who love the Bible will receive it; those who don't know the Bible or don't like the Bible, won't like any discussion with me ~~ about the Bible, that is.
On another "note", I took five years of classical piano ~ to lighten the mood to piano ~~ and love the music as well.
The sword which Jesus will bring is to cut of ones ignorance and ego.
The Bible is a holy book like the Bhagwat Gita, Quran,Guru Granth Sahib etc.
Except, the Bible doesn't teach what Islam does as follows:
"A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate; sodomizing the child is OK. If a man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl's sister. . . It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband's house rather than her father's house. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.
Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, Tahrirolvasyleh, volume 4 (Gom, Iran: Darol Elm, 1990), p. 186."
I am talking about their philosophy of god .What they term as Allah the Christians term as Jevovah the Light.
The difference in philosophies is that Muslims do not equate their prophet Muhammad with god while Christians do equate Jesus with god.
that is who He said He is, none other than God All-Mighty.
and He proved it time and again.
33 They replied, “We’re stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God.”
All prophets and masters have proved their divinity and not only Jesus.They were all mocked as well.
I think it's quite amazing the avoidance of the marriage and sexual activity with babies and young girls in the Islam faith documented in this hub ~~ wow ~ no one has even said one word....that screams to me about the avoidance in this group. And, no, I don't care about being popular, so blast away.
So, your religion is better than the muslimist religion because you only advocate sex with your mother instead of sex with children?
Avoidance? It is Ramadan. Next time a muslimist turns up I will give him what for. How did you manage to bring sex with babies into the conversation exactly?
You really are quite a pathetic specimen. Does it bother you that some people do not adhere to your irrational beliefs?
Do you get a prize every time you attack someone else's irrational beliefs?
Christians like to believe their prophet was superior, born out of a virgin and never had sex in his life,so lets cover up Mary Magdalene .
Hindus believe it is up to the individual master, does he want to gt married and have children or does he want to live alone.
Shiva, Krishna, Rama and many other great masters were married and had kids, absolutely nothing wrong with it.
One story goes that Jesus escaped and settled in India in Kashmir.
Christian philosophy is a copy of Hindu philosophy and the stories of Jesus coming to India learning from the Masters and going back to spread god knowledge makes sense to me .
Have you heard of Babaji of the Himalayas? considered to be over two thousand years old , has promised to remain on this planet till all have attained salvation, miraculous.
Oh - I understand what you have interpreted the bible to mean.
Many have done so before you. That is why your religion is destined to continue to cause strife, hatred and war.
It is also destined to spawn copy cat religions based on similar, but "better," prophet's words who have come to dispel the previous versions as incorrect. Read any history book.
You do not see the hatred because you have the "truth," and no need for empty apologies - you will continue to spread the word by sword, so it is not like you will be forgiven because you intend to carry on doing what you are doing.
I don't subscribe to the catholic version of forgiveness either.
I am a guitar man myself.
What do you think the final battle prophesied is all about? Peace? It's about Jesus and Satan...the forces of both, and it's going to be ugly. My prayer is for all to get to know Jesus, accept His sacrifice already made for your sins (and mine, too ~ I am not perfect), and spread the gospel of His forgiveness to everyone you can...at least I'll know I did my best (as humanly possible); for the motive of my heart is love and good ~ not to hurt, but to heal and protect the innocent. We are Christian soldiers, and what soldiers do you know that will go into battle holding a teddy bear?
I understand that is what you think.
It is human nature to destroy ourselves. We have a choice not to do so. But that means understanding, (including your book that you have completely misunderstood), going inside, and waging the battle there.
I hope one day you are able to understand that, because it is people like you who are going to eventually cause the "final battle."
Just like it says you are going to in the bible. Spreading this hateful idea is what will bring it about.
Quite honestly it is people like you who helped me to understand what the bible really means, and the fact that there is no such thing as your god.
Now to understand objectively what the Bible really means, you can't judge it just by the people who say things you don't like.
It has absolutely nothing to do with "not liking," what they have to say. How very condescending of you to think that.
I have read and studied your book and you are wrong and clearly do not understand what your book says. Objectively or otherwise.
What exactly makes you think I "don't like" what they have to say rather than "carefully considered the content of what they are saying, investigated thoroughly and made a logical deduction that they are wrong.?"
This is the problem with getting your answers spoon-fed to you from a book that you do not comprehend.
My father is a Hindu and mother a Parsee.I believe in one god the Light called by many names.
Jesus a great prophet like Zarathustra,Buddha ,Mahavira or Muhammad.
Why are you using offensive language? Because someone delights in the Bible and know the Bible is fanatic? What you call yourself when you do not know Bible?
Calling by names is really low.
I agree. In one language our God has 100 names. Also Jesus has the same 100 names. But another gods have also names.
But in one language our God has 100 names. Also Jesus has the same 100 names. But another gods have also names.
But in one language our God has 100 names. Also Jesus has the same 100 names. But another gods have also names.
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