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Atheists: what do you worship?

  1. livelonger profile image88
    livelongerposted 7 years ago

    Not trying to be glib. I just read an interesting commencement address made by the late David Foster Wallace (Infinite Jest) and was struck by this excerpt:


    Thoughts? (The entire address is worth reading, if you have the chance)

    1. profile image0
      Pani Midnyte Odinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Atheists, by definition, do not worship anyone or anything. They have no religion. However, if you must give them something to "worship," I suppose they worship the things they can see with their own eyes and hear with their own ears. Atheists tend to side with the side of logic and evidence.

      1. profile image0
        sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Nooooooo! They only side with their backside!big_smile

        1. starme77 profile image87
          starme77posted 7 years ago in reply to this

          lol lol

      2. Mikel G Roberts profile image89
        Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I disagree enough that I wrote a hub on it... I think Atheism is a religion.

        1. profile image0
          Madame Xposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I agree with you. Atheists hold on just as hard to their beliefs as someone in any religion smile

          1. earnestshub profile image88
            earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Balderdash! Not believing in the sky fairy is not a religion.
            Just a bunch of people with common sense. smile

            1. profile image0
              Madame Xposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I didn't say it was a religion. I said atheists hold onto their view just as hard as those who follow a religion.

              1. Marisa Wright profile image93
                Marisa Wrightposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                The difference is, though, Madame X, that atheists can explain their view through logic and facts,and aren't afraid to open up their reasoning to scrutiny. When you can do that, there's a solid reason for sticking to your view.   Many fundamentalist Christians hold rigidly to their view and won't open their reasoning to scrutiny at all.

          2. skyfire profile image70
            skyfireposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            No. Atheism is not a religion.

            We atheists have difference of opinion among ourselves on many points and prefer to have lone-wolf life. Weak-atheists are usually leaving religion/theism with some anger do form groups and religion, for example RAELions.

        2. David Bowman profile image61
          David Bowmanposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          "Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color." - Don Hirschberg

          1. thisisoli profile image54
            thisisoliposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Haha, I am going to have to remember that one!

          2. profile image0
            Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            hair, it's the new bald.

      3. Jack_K profile image52
        Jack_Kposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Deleted

        1. Cagsil profile image60
          Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          But, the difference is in the what you said...wanting something is not the same as worship.

          There are plenty of differences between the two.

    2. qwark profile image59
      qwarkposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      The man has it right! There are no atheists.
      Atheism simply defined is just this: "..to deny the existence of god/s."
      The CONCEPT god can only be realized in the imagination of man. It is a metaphysical CONCEPT.
      The word, "god," can only be defined in terms of opinion and conjecture.
      Only the CONCEPT of god can be denied since this god thing is not a reality.
      Those who claim to be "atheists," haven't thought thru all facets of their claim.

    3. Cly Walsh profile image56
      Cly Walshposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I worship potato bake.

    4. thisisoli profile image54
      thisisoliposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      It's not a new concept that he is portraying here, and many theologians have raised the point, usually because their theism clouds what a non-belief in god actually means.  Atheists may or may not follow certain ethical principals, but where atheism differs is that they are choosing whether or not they should follow an ethical choice, rather than doing so, at least in part, because God commands.  Atheism is the denial of god, not the denial of ethical principles.

      When it comes to Buddhism, talk to Hokey about that one, he is the one to talk to about that, my understanding is though, that yet again it is the following of a path that people believe is right, they look at the works of Buddhism and choose to follow it based on their personal ethical concepts, there is nothing much otherworldly in Buddhism, which is why it would be the closest thing to a religion I would ever consider.

      Atheism is simply the denial of Deities.  People can argue over the semantics as much as they want, but when you get right down to it, anyone who calls themselves Christian should believe in God, not his principles, because it is through the belief in God that they know the principles to be right, their ethical choice comes second to God. Failure to believe in god is of course one of the worst sins, and therefor leaves these people as closet agnostics, or sinners. 

      Theists and Theologians like to blur the lines on this to strengthen their arguments, but it does boil down to a rather simple choice, are you Atheist, agnostic, or religious?

      As to what I worship?

      The closest thing would probably be my fiancée, she is an amazing woman smile

      1. profile image0
        sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Nice explanation but there is a benchmark for morality and judgement. If that benchmark approves adultery and goes from there then you have to question how moral is this really. Basing your morals on your own thought opens the door for some pretty wild interpretations. It's dishonest to say you have your morality without acknowledging what it's based on. That makes a huge difference.

        As far as Christianity is concerned it's important to love your self but not worship yourself which would indicate a selfish motivation. A true Christian tries to be selfless and thats why we lend ourselves to the guidence of Heavenly Father. Even if you hate religion it is dishonest to say the Ten Comandments aren't the benchmark for morality.smile

        1. thisisoli profile image54
          thisisoliposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Anything can be a benchmark, the laws Hitler created could be a benchmark.

          However I do agree with your point, my ethical beliefs do align closely with the ten commandments, however my upbringing was very non-religious, and even now I could not quote you the ten commandments in their entirety.

          I have always done what I thought to be right, never purposefully gone out to hurt someones feelings, never shied away from helping someone in need, and never (knowingly) gone with a girl who was already with someone else.

          Of course these are my ethics, and there is room for some peoples ethics to become twisted, which is why a legal system is a good thing to have in place. I think a collective decision on correct ethics for a community is an effective way to keep things in check.

          There are of course criminals with twisted ethics, but then again there are people who go on murder sprees in the name of God, both sides have those whose moral views are twisted.

          The difference remains that some people do moral things for personal gain, while other do moral things because they feel that it is right.

          1. profile image0
            sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Why would you assume that Christians only do good to go to Heaven? Is it possible for Christians to be charitable just because it's the right thing to do?smile

            1. wyanjen profile image85
              wyanjenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Yes!! I think the majority of christians fall into this category!
              Why is it then, that atheists have to justify being charitable?

              How have you been sneako? smile

      2. AllanWrites profile image54
        AllanWritesposted 7 years ago in reply to this
    5. Sab Oh profile image55
      Sab Ohposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      When you get right down to it, aethists worship themselves. Sort of like a dog chasing its own tail.

      1. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        When you get down to it, that is absolutely rot!
        You would have people belief that all non believers are megalomaniacs? Dumb, just plain dumb.

    6. cjhunsinger profile image72
      cjhunsingerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      They worship the power of reason in Man.  Man's capacity to reason will always lead to freedom and peace.  Man is born inherently good, and learn the power of reason to degrees.  The more children are taught reason, the more they become self-sustaining individuals and contribute to society in positive ways.

      1. profile image0
        china manposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Clearly very few of the aged children on here were ever taught reason OR manners.

        1. Cagsil profile image60
          Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          You included, huh? hmm

    7. profile image0
      Dog On A Missionposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I don't worship anything or anyone.

      1. profile image70
        paarsurreyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Hi friend Dog On A Mission

        Do you mean that you don't worship or follow David Foster Wallace ?

        Thanks

  2. Marisa Wright profile image93
    Marisa Wrightposted 7 years ago

    Livelonger, I was just discussing this with my husband yesterday.

    I think this is the biggest problem that Christians and other religious people have.  They clearly have a deep-seated need to believe in or worship something, and they simply can't conceive the possibility that other people might not feel that need.

    Perhaps people who don't feel that need are oddities, but I'm convinced they do exist.

  3. profile image0
    Justine76posted 7 years ago

    everyone believes in something.

    1. Marisa Wright profile image93
      Marisa Wrightposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      See what I mean? 

      Believing means trusting that something is true without any concrete evidence.  Not everyone feels that's necessary in their lives.

      1. Cagsil profile image60
        Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        A belief is known to be true.

        Describe "faith". Faith is an unquestioned belief.

        A belief is formed based on factual evidence available. To form the belief, because you have "faith" in yourself to discern truth and lie.

        The mystical "faith" proposed by religion does not exist. Faith is only to be placed in yourself or other people, because you and they, are the only ones who can produce factual evidence for their(your) belief.

        That's my take again. lol lol

        1. Marisa Wright profile image93
          Marisa Wrightposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Here's what the Oxford English Dictionary says:

          noun 1 a feeling that something exists or is true, especially one without proof 2 a firmly held opinion. 3 (belief in) trust or confidence in. 4 religious faith.

          I notice the Merriam Webster dictionary sees it differently, so maybe there's a difference in the usage in American and British English.

          1. qwark profile image59
            qwarkposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Marissa:
            In English, as it is understood here in the USA, "faith" has 2 connotations:

            1.Faith based on empirical proof i.e. I have faith the sun will rise in the East.

            2. Religious faith is based 100% on "hope" i.e. I have faith in god.

      2. profile image0
        Deborah Sextonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        From the dictionary:
        A view is an opinion that is affected by your personal feelings or biases (: his views on life were essentially optimistic), while a sentiment is a more or less settled opinion that may still be colored by emotion (: her sentiments on aging were shared by many other women approaching fifty).
        A belief differs  from an opinion or a view in that it is not necessarily the creation of the person who holds it; the emphasis here is on the mental acceptance of an idea,  a proposition, or a doctrine and on the assurance of its truth (: religious beliefs;
        ******************
        SEE:
        the mental acceptance of an idea

        Scientists are not sure how we came to be...yet Atheist except the Theory that there is no God
        Since there is no way to prove if there is or there is not..then it is a belief held by those who do not believe.

        1. Hokey profile image59
          Hokeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Can I worship you? big_smile

          1. profile image0
            Deborah Sextonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Sure, why not! smile

            1. Hokey profile image59
              Hokeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Yay!!!!!!!!!!! So now what do I do?  neutral

              1. profile image0
                Deborah Sextonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                You have to start spreading the word about how wonderful I am. Then you need to send me gifts...then you must make the ultimate sacrifice, yes you have to sacrifice yourself to me. smile

    2. profile image0
      Pani Midnyte Odinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Atheists believe in the things they can see and hear for themselves. They believe in things that have logic behind them.

      1. tantrum profile image59
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Agree.
        i don't believe in anything. but If I have to, I would believe in my power, and worship myself

    3. Mikel G Roberts profile image89
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      nice avatar...

  4. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Why would anyone worship? The word is without meaning to me.

  5. Cagsil profile image60
    Cagsilposted 7 years ago

    Well, I'm not an atheist, but I found the beginning of the article to be an assumption and too generalized, not to mention, not possible.

    Everyone worships something? Simply subjective conjecture at minimum. It is encompassing every person on the planet, just not atheists. Which, this single individual couldn't possibly know.

    Prime example: I do not worship anything at all.

    There are plenty of things in my life that I love and adore more than anything else, but I do not worship them or the ground they walk on.

    I really do wish people would not separate Atheism from religion. Atheism is a religion, it's bound by morality and evidential proof, a.k.a. facts known to humanity.

    It has a code of ethics and a higher cause other than self.

    Atheism has no belief in a god or a disbelief of god. It doesn't recognize the "GOD" concept's existence at all.

    That's my take on it. What do they believe in? Ask each individual and most likely get a different answer. smile

  6. wyanjen profile image85
    wyanjenposted 7 years ago

    I don't worship anything, or anybody. I'm not on board with the idea that everybody believes something.

    On the other hand, I will agree that everybody has faith. Atheists find faith in their families, for instance. But his is not the same thing as worshipping.

  7. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 7 years ago

    They worship science books. lol

    Death to the imagination. lol

  8. Jerami profile image73
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    Maybe we should simplify the word worship to "putting the most value upon"  or the "thing in which we derive the most pleasure or security upon". We all do it
       Some people don't like the word worship.

    1. profile image0
      china manposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      You can't change the meaning of words to suit an argument - worship contains adoration within its meaning and it is specifically connected to religion.

      1. Cagsil profile image60
        Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Just like "SIN" is just connected to religion too. wink

      2. profile image0
        Deborah Sextonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        ORIGIN Old English weorthscipe [worthiness, acknowledgment of worth

  9. kess profile image60
    kessposted 7 years ago

    To God "nothing" is merely another "something" and therefore all who claim to worship nothing, my question do you know what that nothing actually is?

    If you knew, you would NOT worship "nothing".

    1. tantrum profile image59
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Don't play with words. That's nonsense. And we are not a God to think 'nothing' is 'something'
      Pleaassee !! lol

      1. kess profile image60
        kessposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Anything someone cannot understand is indeed nonsense to them,

        I Agree .

        1. tantrum profile image59
          tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          And you don't understand Atheism.  LOL

        2. Hokey profile image59
          Hokeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Its not that they don't understand. I think it is because they do understand. Fairy tales are nice but they don't work in real life.

      2. profile image0
        sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Someone did say I am nothing, I am no one.sad

        1. tantrum profile image59
          tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Maybe I should believe in you then ! big_smile

          1. profile image0
            sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Nah, I'm justa a husband and a father who tries his best to be loved by his family and friends!smile

  10. Bundu profile image93
    Bunduposted 7 years ago

    I read somewhere by someone that everyone has a "God-shaped-hole" in their lives somewhere.  Some people fill that hole by believing in God, some people fill that hole with something else.  It could be money, family, drugs, fishing, baking.. you get the point, anything really.  The filler is never fixed. 

    I would pose the argument that atheists don't have to believe in anything but something in their lives is filling that hole

    1. Marisa Wright profile image93
      Marisa Wrightposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      That was no doubt written by someone who had a "god-shaped hole" in his or her own life, and couldn't conceive that people exist who don't have it.  Just because someone wrote it, doesn't make it true!

      1. wyanjen profile image85
        wyanjenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        It's like...
        peer pressure.
        Don't you think? C'mon, EVERYBODY'S doing it!

        Not everybody has a hole, whether it's god-shaped or just plain round.

      2. Bundu profile image93
        Bunduposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Possibly, but is there nothing in your life that you value above all other things? You simply value nothing or value everything equally.  You could take every single item of your life and never have it again?

    2. Pandoras Box profile image67
      Pandoras Boxposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Maybe it's not a god-shaped hole. Maybe it's not a hole at all.

    3. livelonger profile image88
      livelongerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, I think this is along the lines of what David Foster Wallace said, in slightly different terms.

      Don't know if I agree with it or not, which is why I opened it up for discussion. smile

  11. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Hiya sneak! Ready to do battle? lol

    1. profile image0
      sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      What are we playing for?big_smile

    2. qwark profile image59
      qwarkposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      EArn:
      Unfair!
      Why would you do battle with the unarmed?    :-)

      1. wyanjen profile image85
        wyanjenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        TiVo picked up UFC 89 smile
        Haven't seen it yet. I love having a TV friend who takes care of these things for me lol
        I didn't even notice it was on.

        1. qwark profile image59
          qwarkposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Wyan:
          It's not on "Spike" anymore?

          1. wyanjen profile image85
            wyanjenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Yup, it was on Spike. I just haven't had the TV on enough to notice it there. wink

            1. qwark profile image59
              qwarkposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              ok girl!  thanks...:-)

      2. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I promise to tie one arm behind my back... smile

        He should be OK. A four year old just beat me up again.
        I have to be more careful what I say to her twin sister! smile

        1. qwark profile image59
          qwarkposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Earn:
          WUSS!    LOL

          1. earnestshub profile image88
            earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Oh yeh? You try and take on the dreaded Asha.
            She can argue better than most people on this thread, and she NEVER loses an argument, even if that means using the little Britain method. "Yes, but no but yes but"
            If that fails she becomes Asha the basher and just head butts me!

            1. wyanjen profile image85
              wyanjenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              What a sweetheart lol
              Do you have pics?

            2. qwark profile image59
              qwarkposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Earn:
              Hahahaha.
              Hey enroll in a local MMA gym and don't tell Asha!
              ..then unloosen yer tied behind the back arm...and ya may have a chance next time. ..:-)  or am I just dreamin?....lol

              1. earnestshub profile image88
                earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Dreaming! I have more scars from the twins than from motorcycle racing!
                They are dangerous people these little ones.
                I usually just do as I am told. I went to their older sisters 13th birthday on Sunday, and as I hugged the birthday girl, Asha grabbed both my little fingers to drag me off to see her latest interests.
                I wish I could learn how to avoid the dreaded 2 pinky hold she has invented, but alas, she has taught the other twin how to do it as well, so I often get dragged around by both of them! lol

                1. qwark profile image59
                  qwarkposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Hahaha...shes' been watching Steven Seigal movies and is takin' 'em to heart!
                  ...well, there's always runnin'...like hell!!!!!

                  1. earnestshub profile image88
                    earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Yep! That sounds like a workable strategy to me! lol lol lol

  12. livelonger profile image88
    livelongerposted 7 years ago

    Just to clarify, I didn't ask what you believed, but rather what you worshipped.

    Belief is only required in dogmatic religions like Christianity. I know for a fact (because I am Jewish) that Judaism does not require any specific beliefs. But Jews do worship a God (or a concept of one, although skepticism is generally OK).

    DFW mentions other things that even atheists can worship:
    - money/things
    - beauty/sexual allure
    - intellect
    - power

    You may agree or disagree with his point, but I sense most people who are responding didn't read the excerpt.

    1. profile image0
      Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      first, livelonger, where in SF are you? miss it out there.

      second. after reading this -in all honesty- would want to see the entire 'speech'. what prompted the dialogue?
      also, the notion of 'numbing' fear bothers me, in that most people live day to day in fear -no matter the tag. be it living, dieing, drowning,explosions, aliens, gods or fire ants. so for that person to say they are numb is a bit naive.

      i do agree in the term worship with regard to 'unconscious'. it is automatic AFTER the program has been uploaded, so to speak. people go on auto pilot and become slaves to it or how ever many things they put in front of their faces/conceive in their brains.

      {{ just me: i call this idolatry, putting a image -other than the one i was made to be- in front of me in addition to the image of the One who made me }}

      1. livelonger profile image88
        livelongerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I live more or less in the middle of the city - a short walk to both the Castro & Cole Valley. smile

        The original post has a link to the entire commencement address that Foster Wallace gave.

    2. wyanjen profile image85
      wyanjenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I did read the excerpt. smile

      "Worship" means reverence or glorification.
      I don't glorify any of these things.
      I do not worship anything.

      It's presumptuous to make the claim that everybody worships.

      smile

      1. livelonger profile image88
        livelongerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Fair enough. smile

        Do you believe that life has any particular meaning, or, more specifically, that any one of us has a responsibility to anything beyond ourselves?

        1. qwark profile image59
          qwarkposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Livelonger:
          Are ya referring to "generic" life or "our" lives?

          1. livelonger profile image88
            livelongerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Either, or actually, both, I guess. Maybe there is no answer. Maybe atheists believe that anything beyond their lives is immaterial. I don't know.

            I do know several atheists who nevertheless do "good deeds" on behalf of people they don't know (i.e. so they don't get a direct benefit).

            1. earnestshub profile image88
              earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I like to think that I gain a lot when I help out a stranger.
              Good for my self worth. smile

              1. livelonger profile image88
                livelongerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                How so?

                1. Cagsil profile image60
                  Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Simply because it feels good to help others. I would have thought that would be obvious.

                  You can build self-worth, by being self-interest first and foremost, which builds self-growth, which leads to self-esteem and self-worth.

                  When you commit the action of helping another, it is a selfless act, which build human spirituality and love within oneself, providing you already love yourself first. smile wink

                  1. livelonger profile image88
                    livelongerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    So is it a biological impulse to help others? (You get an extra burst of serotonin or some other brain chemical, that makes you feel good?) If there were another way to engineer the same feeling of good within you without having to help other people at lower cost, would that do the same trick?

            2. qwark profile image59
              qwarkposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Livelonger:
              Wait!
              "I thought the question was: 'Do you believe that life has any particular meaning, or, more specifically, that any one of us has a responsibility to anything beyond ourselves?"
              What does this have to do with atheism?
              I don't get it?
              ???????

              1. livelonger profile image88
                livelongerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                I don't understand. Atheists don't believe in a creator. That doesn't mean they don't have beliefs or suppositions about the nature of existence or if there is any purpose to our being here.

                1. qwark profile image59
                  qwarkposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  your question wasn't about atheists??
                  I'm not an atheist, agnostic, deist or a believer in supernatural divinities!
                  I'm a logician and pragmatist.
                  There is a goal for all life, there is purpose with all life...you have to explain to me whatcha mean by "meaning?" Do you mean it to be something to convey?..or the "aim" of life?
                  Clear that up for me and I'll respond....ty  :-)

                  1. livelonger profile image88
                    livelongerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    I guess I mean "aim" - why would an atheist feel a commitment to the world of 500 years from now?

            3. Marisa Wright profile image93
              Marisa Wrightposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Livelonger, atheists take the view that this life is all there is, so they have a vested interest in making the most of it.  That means contributing to making the society they live in a worthwhile place.

              1. livelonger profile image88
                livelongerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                That makes sense if your commitment is to your immediate environment - to yourself, your family, your friends - because you draw an immediate benefit when you don't see yourself or anyone you love in peril. Almost all of us have a primal drive for our own survival and that of our loved ones that is very difficult to override.

                I guess I wonder what motivates atheists to improve the world in a way that they don't get an immediate benefit. Why would an atheist support atmospheric carbon mitigation, for example, when the problems from global warming will likely take effect after they're dead?

                1. Marisa Wright profile image93
                  Marisa Wrightposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Are you assuming atheists have no human feelings and are incapable of caring what will happen to people in the future?

                  1. livelonger profile image88
                    livelongerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    No. What makes you say that?

                2. earnestshub profile image88
                  earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  I can only guess from my own experience why atheists or any non believers care about such things. For me it is the love of life, the future of the planet for my loved ones and that every time I help out it makes me feel good. Especially if it is those random encounters where people need a hand, and I am able to provide it. smile

                  1. livelonger profile image88
                    livelongerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    OK, and I should make it clear that from my personal experience alone, atheists or non-believers are at least as decent (if not more decent) that religious people.

                    I can understand protecting the welfare of yourself and your loved ones - there is an innate drive to do so in most living creatures.

                    I'm just wondering what explains the "human decency" when there is no immediate benefit to doing so. You said it makes you feel good to help others; does that come from some sort of belief (that doing something good will mean something or matter somehow in the grand scheme of things), or is it just a biological sensation?

                3. wyanjen profile image85
                  wyanjenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  You seem to be assuming that atheists are sociopaths. I don't mean that in a stereotypical or mean way.
                  People who fit into the category you describe here are sociopaths, with no social morality, ethics or conscious. It's not a nice group to be lumped in with. smile

                  1. livelonger profile image88
                    livelongerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    I have absolutely no idea where you got that idea. Where did I suggest such a thing? (Unless your comment was tongue-in-cheek and I just didn't pick up on it)

                4. thisisoli profile image54
                  thisisoliposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Say you had an otherwise healthy 80 year old man on a bed at death door, on one hand he is religious, and slips away to his 'eternal heaven'

                  But, what if he was an atheist, and he had a button, which if pressed would extend his life by ten years, the side effect of which would be the death of three billion people.

                  By your reasoning an atheist, would, without question, press teh button.  However in reality, I don't think I know a single atheist who would press such a button.

                5. Pandoras Box profile image67
                  Pandoras Boxposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Preservation of the species.

                  1. Randy Godwin profile image93
                    Randy Godwinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Exactly!  Most of us plan to leave descendants who will need the earth for a few more centuries at least.  Helping one's fellow man is instilled in our instincts.  Not all of us though, some are politicians or preachers!

            4. Pandoras Box profile image67
              Pandoras Boxposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              That's quite a jump from maybe atheists don't worship anything to maybe atheists consider everything beyond their own lives immaterial. Awful lot of room for consideration between worship and apathy.

        2. wyanjen profile image85
          wyanjenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          The "Meaning of Life" is exactly what you think it is.

          There is no universal answer, I mean. Each individual has his or her own interpretation.

          My personal faith is in people. I'm a humanist. So to the question of responsibility: Be responsible for yourself first and foremost. Be responsible for your family, then your friends. The purpose of life is to be happy and healthy, and to help others do the same.

          smile

          1. livelonger profile image88
            livelongerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I know quite a few humanists, and respect their actions and tolerance towards others. I used to subscribe to Paul Kurtz's magazine (can't remember the name) and thought it had lots of thought-provoking articles.

            At any rate, where does the commitment to help other people come from? To treat yourself makes sense, naturally, and maybe loved ones, too. But why donate to disaster relief, etc.? Why does humanity deserve your faith?

            1. wyanjen profile image85
              wyanjenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              The overly simple answer is:
              A rising tide lifts all boats.

              Every person's life has as much value as my own, so why wouldn't I reach out to help? Plenty of people have helped me, along my way.

        3. Cagsil profile image60
          Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I'm going to give my take on this question, just because I feel the need to express myself and the understanding I have of myself, so as to clearly convey my message.

          Meaning for a person's life, is to be determined by the individual. If you want your meaning to be solely beneficial to you only, it leads to selfishness and destructive actions, which will harm others and show a lack of understanding about life, as well, show others that the person has no integrity.

          The understanding I have, is to make your life have a purpose, specifically by you, you then strive to fulfill that purpose, by being self-interest(meanings you love yourself and want to learn more), this leads to self-growth and spiritual being. Thus, creates meaning.

          As long as the actions are honest, filled with integrity and love, then there will be no harmful effects that can derive from the action set forth.

          It is in each person's ability to create, transform and adapt their entire life, so as to command a respectful way of life and achieve happiness.

          Just my thought. smile

  13. qwark profile image59
    qwarkposted 7 years ago

    If I worshipped anything it would be "life."

    1. livelonger profile image88
      livelongerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Is that a conscious choice with a purpose in mind, or because there's a fundamental biological drive to do so?

  14. Aya Katz profile image88
    Aya Katzposted 7 years ago

    I think that very few people worship, whether they classify themselves as believers or as unbelievers. To worship, you have to be limerent.

    Much of religion is about cosmology: what does or does not exist. (Deities, demons, angels, spirits, souls.)

    But to worship is a very exalted emotional state that has nothing to do with whether we believe the object of our worship exists or not.

    We can worship a man or a woman, real, imaginary, or historical, who manifests or symbolizes our highest values. We do not need to believe they are real or currently alive to feel that way.

    Many people believe without worshiping. Others worship without believing.

    1. livelonger profile image88
      livelongerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I disagree, but it might be a matter of how we're interpreting the word "worship." I guess I'm using wyanjen's definition, meaning reverence, or very strong respect.

      But I take your point that you don't have to believe to worship, don't have to worship to believe, etc.

      1. calpol25 profile image74
        calpol25posted 7 years ago in reply to this

        thanks livelonger, I dont really know much on the matter but thats my honest thought lol

  15. calpol25 profile image74
    calpol25posted 7 years ago

    I think atheists believe in good and bad, but then im only speculating because i dont know, but my view is live and let live. lol

  16. profile image0
    ralwusposted 7 years ago

    i holi worship tantrum, my only goddess, er, other than Aphrodite, but then I think she is Aphrodite! big_smile

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      We all have an inner Aphrodite. smile I love Tantrum! She is in ya face straight. A very smart and beautiful woman. We have so many smart women on hubpages, us guys pull a poor second! lol

      1. tantrum profile image59
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        WOW !!
        thanks friends ! Earnest and walrus !!
        You will make me blush !!!

    2. tantrum profile image59
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Soooo Sweeettt ! smile

  17. relache profile image86
    relacheposted 7 years ago

    If you think that Buddhist worship the Four Noble Truths, you have a complete lack of understanding about Buddhism.

  18. Cagsil profile image60
    Cagsilposted 7 years ago

    They have a good sense of human morality, reinforced by their integrity, upheld by love for oneself and others.

    1. profile image0
      sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Whats your benchmark for morality? That would be important to know.smile

      1. Cagsil profile image60
        Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        To make sure that I live my life, not only for myself. I remain honest in my actions and I provide help whenever I am able. I've learned to love myself, therefore, I have no problem loving the rest of humanity, and accepting them. We are all human beings and we should all be working together to strive for a better future.

        When actions are honest, it show integrity of a person. When it helps someone else then it is morally right. smile

  19. livelonger profile image88
    livelongerposted 7 years ago

    thisisoli: Sadly, you've misinterpreted my point of view. You're not the first in this thread.

    I have not argued that atheists lack ethics. I have said this over and over and over again in this thread. How typical of your average Hubpages user to not read something and instead react to what they think you said. roll

    I've said again and again (and again) that I have known plenty of ethical atheists, who do selfless things. What I don't understand is the rationale. What compels atheists to act ethically when there isn't a religious ethos that incorporates ethical behavior?

    Yes, I understand completely that people have free will to do good things as they please, whether they're a believer or not. That much is obvious. Buying a pint for a friend has an easily-explainable rationale: your friend will reciprocate, or do something as generous or as friendly on your behalf at some point in the future.

    This was the reason for my example about combating global warming. There is no direct personal benefit unless your religious or personal ethos demands respect for/protection of the planet.

    What I surmise from your answer and those of others is that atheists can believe and worship something, it's just not God. (It can be humanity, Earth, etc.)

    1. thisisoli profile image54
      thisisoliposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Ok, I apologise if I misinterpreted your points,

      I have now gone through the thread and think most of what I said stands, but I did rush in to a couple of things maybe (It is 2am here so it was a lot of reading!)

      I am personally aligned against carbon based global warming promoters, but for the sake of argument I will use it as an example, as if it were the cause of the actual problem, and that there was a simple thing that I (along with others) could do to solve the problem.

      I would do this thing because I had decided that it would be the right thing to do, for humanity as a whole. 

      This does not mean I worship humanity, I am not attempting to glorify it, or personify it. It simply means that my ethical viewpoint stands in helping people, be it one person or the entire human population. And with such an impersonal effect there would definitely be no 'warm glow' 

      A couple of years back I was walking to a night club and came across this girl having a severe asthma attack on a bridge, I instantly called an ambulance, and made sure she was okay till they arrived.

      What caused me to do this? 

      I won't lie, when you do something as personal as that (As opposed to stopping global warming) I did get a bit of self satisfaction from helping someone, but I didn't stop and help her for a bit of self satisfaction, I stopped and helped her because she needed help.  This was to my net loss, I had to stand around in the cold for 10 minutes I had to pay an extra £10 to get in to the night club, and I could have been doing things that I would have enjoyed, however my own moral compass would have made me detest myself for leaving a suffering human being in distress.

      Maybe the feeling you are looking for is 'guilt', but I don't feel guilty if I rush past someone who is lost in city on the way to work, but if I have time I do help them.

      It is always an ethical decision, I always choose whether or not to help someone, it isn't a feeling that provokes my assistance, it is a thought.

      1. livelonger profile image88
        livelongerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        OK, but invoking "moral compass" begs the question, where did the moral compass come from?

        At any rate, it's late where you are and I thank you for thorough responses.

        1. Cagsil profile image60
          Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          By one's Integrity.

        2. thisisoli profile image54
          thisisoliposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          a moral compass in my opinion comes from upbringing, you are brought in to the morales around you.  All my morales have come from an atheist family line on both sides.  Morality is judged by the morales of those around you, but ultimately it is the thought process that lets you decide, from your own experiences whether or not something is wrong or right.

          People may question the morality of the 9/11 bombers, but do they question the morality of the American response?

          America became a terrorist target because it was manipulating other countries and killing thousands upon thousands.

          My own moral view is that both countries should stop attacking each other, unfortunately my common sense view finds it a hard proposition to believe.

          Although let me state that in that particular conflict, since my moral viewpoint lays more towards western standards I would automatically side with America, even though morally I would disagree with the countries interference with each other.

          Morality is a truely variable thing, but why should christianity be the decider of the moral compass?

          1. livelonger profile image88
            livelongerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I don't think it is, except for Christians.

            I hope you didn't mean wrt the Iraq War! Despite all the blather about religion and the Crusades, this was pretty much about oil.

            1. thisisoli profile image54
              thisisoliposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              The currency oil is sold in to be exact. (There are a lot of interesting things about that whole fiasco, I think that is for another discussion though!)

              My point was that many Americans felt they were morally justified in the retaliation of 9/11, despite the fact that 9/11 itself was a (Morally justified in their eyes) retaliation for a far greater number of deaths.

              My opinion is that neither country is in the right for their military presence in each others country, be it army or suicide bomber. I kinda wish everyone would 'just get along'.

              Realistically though that is a long way off.

  20. Cagsil profile image60
    Cagsilposted 7 years ago

    The simplest benchmark for human morality is based on the expressed definitions of True Integrity.

    Integrity dictates morality. smile

    Just a thought.

    1. profile image0
      sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Who decided what the defination of integrity is?smile

      1. Cagsil profile image60
        Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Oh please. Integrity isn't defined by "GOD". Integrity is a human character trait, taught to children by parents, who understand what it means to be good to others. No harming of others in action.

        As long as the action is honest and with love, it will always be beneficial or helpful to others.

  21. IntimatEvolution profile image80
    IntimatEvolutionposted 7 years ago

    I was not aware that Atheists practiced the act of worshiping.

    Are you kidding me?  This is so silly.  Atheists do not need to worship.  Seriously, what were you thinking?hmm

  22. IntimatEvolution profile image80
    IntimatEvolutionposted 7 years ago

    I think the majority of Christians have lost their way.  Therefore, their "charitable" contributions always come with a bigger price tag, than the gift warrants.

  23. Randy Godwin profile image93
    Randy Godwinposted 7 years ago

    Herd animals protect their own kind.  Even though the animals they are protecting are in competition with them for food and water, the other animals still protect them.  Do they do this because they are religious?  Of course not!  It is the instinct to preserve their life form.  The instinct of survival in all living things. 

    The Ten Commandments are merely basic rules for living with one's fellow man in tribes and groups.  Otherwise, the harmony of the groups or tribes is disturbed.  They were around many thousands of years before biblical times.

    1. Marisa Wright profile image93
      Marisa Wrightposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Good example

  24. thisisoli profile image54
    thisisoliposted 7 years ago

    As to the link http://www.christianity.co.nz/moralit2.htm

    This is a typic religious argument that picks a flaw in a pattern and then gives god as an ultimatum, in this case a benchmark.

    It is true that there are moralities behind both nazi beliefs and my own, but this does not suddenly mean that I need 'gods law as a benchmark. 

    Morales differ all over the world, in some cultures cannabalism is accepted, in a thousand years our own morales will probably seem barbaric.

    The biblical morales such as the ten commandments are basically your normal morales, and infact much of the nazi propaganda waws taken from biblical verse. The bible, just like anything, can be twisted to your own viewpoint quite easily.

    The day I need an invisible omnipotent character to judge my own morales is the day I should stop trusting my own morales, and instead trust those of the nearest psychiatric hospital.

    1. livelonger profile image88
      livelongerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I agree completely. Truth is not a testament of faith, but rather the result of dialogue, a process without an end.

    2. Tyrone Smalls profile image47
      Tyrone Smallsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      When you trust your own morals, that's when you go wrong! Let Got!!!! My girlfriend and I prayed last night about a blockage in her heart. When she went to get her opperation today, the blockage was gone!!! We had faith that God would remove it AND HE DID!!!!! YOU MUST BELIEVE WITHOUT A DOUBT, WITHOUT A DOUBT, WITHOUT A DOUBT!!!!

      1. Randy Godwin profile image93
        Randy Godwinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        What if it hadn't turned out that way?  Would you blame Satan?

  25. thisisoli profile image54
    thisisoliposted 7 years ago

    Entertaining as this is it has gone past 3am here so I really need to get some shut eye!

    Night all!

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Goodnight thisisoli! Sleep well. smile

    2. qwark profile image59
      qwarkposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      G'nite thisis

    3. wyanjen profile image85
      wyanjenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      nitey nite

  26. thisisoli profile image54
    thisisoliposted 7 years ago

    P.S. The different morales in different countries is not necesarily a bad thing, I have travelled a lot of the globe, and intend to travel a lot more throughout my lifetime, if everywhere was the same, the world would be a much less interesting place.

  27. Cagsil profile image60
    Cagsilposted 7 years ago

    Sorry Earnest, Atheism is a religion.

    Atheism is a moral code of ethics, bound to a higher cause other than self.

    That is exactly what "Christianity" religion is too. A moral code of ethics, bound to a higher cause other than self....it labels it's higher cause as "GOD".

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      No, atheists just do not believe in god. No other belief system needs to replace this fallacy, I would suggest a definition of "not gullible enough for religion."
      You have religionists and those who do not believe in it. How is that a religion?

  28. skyfire profile image70
    skyfireposted 7 years ago

    Sorry to disagree but there are no written code of ethics written for atheism and atheists don't follow any leader either. I can be atheist and prefer not to follow humanity or i can be atheist and can be as tolerant as theists. There is no code of ethics written for atheism.

  29. Cagsil profile image60
    Cagsilposted 7 years ago

    The two differences between Atheism and Christianity is one is reality based and the latter is mystic based, in beliefs.

    And, Atheism is unorganized, as to Christianity which is organized.

    Otherwise, they are both classified as a religion. smile

  30. skyfire profile image70
    skyfireposted 7 years ago

    Classified by whom ? Code of ethics written by whom ?

    If it's unorganized yet religion how come it has difference of opinion for same set of concepts ? I can be atheist and deny big-bang and prefer to have big-crunch concept while rest of the  atheists may or may not agree with me. Skepticism is part of atheism, is being skeptical is being religious ? No.

  31. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    I agree Susana, what you say comes from logic, not hard to fathom, no gods required. smile

    1. Susana S profile image92
      Susana Sposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I'm glad I make sense to someone, lol smile

  32. thisisoli profile image54
    thisisoliposted 7 years ago

    First off atheism has no written code of ethics, atheism is about thought and personal choice, so it is up to the atheist in question whether or not they follow the laws and morales of a country, or indeed form their own Morales.

    Atheism is not centralized.

    Mikel Atheism is not a religion for the following reasons in contradiction to your hub.

    First off, the dictionary definition you extracted

    "something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience"

    This is a common misconception, Atheism is not belief in something, it is about belief that there is not anything there. Again, atheism itself is not based around ethics or conscience, but around scientific fact and common sense.

    While science cannot conclusively prove the power of an omnipotent being, since an omnipotent being could of course simply decide not to be found, we can prove that it is scientifically improbably. This is much more conclusive than any proof backing the existence of God.

    Under me and my imaginary friend, this is generally a joke argument from the Atheists since most religious people do not even imagine a god, they merely believe in him. However there is a difference between faith and facts. Atheism is founded on science and facts, nowhere does it call for belief in a deity or for the following of obscure rituals.

    I am atheist because I have looked at the facts, I have looked at reason, and I have looked at common sense, none of which could put any more substantial belief in God than Santa.

    Atheists often argue when religious people publicly talk about the belief of Gods simply because it seems insane to us.  Belief in a higher being with no proof is illogical.

    I think it is also important to note that the term belief is often misquoted, a personal belief refers to my views on a subject, but I base my beliefs on fact, I also have my moral beliefs.  However this does not denote a belief in any religious sense.

  33. thisisoli profile image54
    thisisoliposted 7 years ago

    May I point out though that one of my personal beliefs is that people should be able to believe what they want, it is not my place to tell someone they must not believe in God, all I can do is state my argument for the nonexistance of God.

  34. Bard of Ely profile image86
    Bard of Elyposted 7 years ago

    I am a very spiritual person but I don't worship anything or anyone! I don't see any reason to.

    1. Mahmo profile image60
      Mahmoposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Nay! I swear by the day of resurrection.     

      2. Nay! I swear by the self-accusing soul.     

      3. Does man think that We shall not gather his bones?     

      4. Yea! We are able to make complete his very fingertips     

      5. Nay! man desires to give the lie to what is before him.     

      6. He asks: When is the day of resurrection?     

      7. So when the sight becomes dazed,     

      8. And the moon becomes dark,     

      9. And the sun and the moon are brought together,     

      10. Man shall say on that day: Whither to fly to?     

      11. By no means! there shall be no place of refuge!     

      12. With your Lord alone shall on that.day be the place of rest.     

      13. Man shall on that day be informed of what he sent before and (what he) put off.     

      14. Nay! man is evidence against himself,     

      15. Though he puts forth his excuses.     

      16. Do not move your tongue with it to make haste with it,     

      17. Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it.     

      18. Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation.     

      19. Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it.     

      20. Nay! But you love the present life,     

      21. And neglect the hereafter.     

      22. (Some) faces on that day shall be bright,     

      23. Looking to their Lord.     

      24. And (other) faces on that day shall be gloomy,     

      25. Knowing that there will be made to befall them some great calamity.     

      26. Nay! When it comes up to the throat,     

      27. And it is said: Who will be a magician?     

      28. And he is sure that it is the (hour of) parting     

      29. And affliction is combined with affliction;     

      30. To your Lord on that day shall be the driving.     

      31. So he did not accept the truth, nor did he pray,     

      32. But called the truth a lie and turned back,     

      33. Then he went to his followers, walking away in haughtiness.     

      34. Nearer to you (is destruction) and nearer,     

      35. Again (consider how) nearer to you and nearer.     

      36. Does man think that he is to be left to wander without an aim?     

      37. Was he not a small seed in the seminal elements,     

      38. Then he was a clot of blood, so He created (him) then made (him) perfect.     

      39. Then He made of him two kinds, the male and the female.     

      40. Is not He able to give life to the dead?     

      The Holy Qura'an -Surat 75 - The Resurrection

      1. Cagsil profile image60
        Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Now, that was a complete waste of space. roll

      2. qwark profile image59
        qwarkposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        rotflmao!!!
        whew!
        When I gained control, I rolled my eyes up and back and sighed audibly in absolute disbelief!
        I ask you, is it any wonder why man is suffering as he is and losing his fight to survive?

  35. profile image61
    (Q)posted 7 years ago

    From the article:

    "There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. "

    The author makes this claim but does not explain it from the get go, hence his argument is a non-starter.

  36. Daniel Carter profile image90
    Daniel Carterposted 7 years ago

    Atheists don't *have* to worship anything. Neither does any one else. However, what becomes *important* in anyone's life is a pretty strong indicator of their experiences and where they will put their trust. Hence, I believe, the broadness of scope as was suggested in the original quote, *can* be accurate in many cases. We can focus on money, power, sex, religion, etc. It's true that they can become our demi-gods, but to simply state that this is all a type of worship is a broad generalization that I just don't think is really accurate.

    I believe in a lot of things, but when it comes to God and the universe, it's all a puzzlement to me. There certainly aren't a lot of convincing answers for me. And I don't consider myself an atheist, and the believers think I'm an atheist. I'm certainly not alone in all this.

  37. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Worship? Why would a non believer need to worship anything?

  38. profile image0
    Lecieposted 7 years ago

    i have a main philosophy...if you poke me in the eye:  >
    you get ten back:   <<<<<<<<<<

    it all comes in tens...lol

  39. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Love just oozes out of the quoran.

    Qur’an 8:12 cp. 8:60 “Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers”; “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them”

    Qur’an 2:191 “...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them”
    Ah! Love at it's best! lol

    Would this be why the lunatic taliban like to cut peoples limbs off?

  40. profile image70
    paarsurreyposted 7 years ago

    Question:"Atheists: what do you worship?

    Answer:

    Hi friends

    The Atheists worship doubt and confusion; that is why they themselves name themeselves as "Skeptics" or the people of profound doubt;never achieving certainty, truth and reality.

    Thanks

    I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Peaceful huh?

      So attacking and lying about people is Peace? Interesting. Thank you for teaching me how Wrong Minded and Agrresive Muslimism is.

      Thank you Usmanali.

      1. profile image70
        paarsurreyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Hi friend Mark Knowles

        Is usmanali your real name?

        Thanks

        I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          You are not my friend, Usmanali. wink I do not believe in having sex with 12 year old girls like your prophet does.

          Peaceful Atheism Makes Sense.

          No God - Nothing to Kill for.

          RAmen

  41. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Is this the same muslim that is hiding from some boogy man, and keeps getting outed cos he can't change his writing style enough to fool anyone? lol lol lol

    1. Hokey profile image59
      Hokeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Yes it is!   big_smile

  42. ceciliabeltran profile image79
    ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago

    Seriously? This is a long discussion?

    1. Hokey profile image59
      Hokeyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Quiet! yikes  This is serious Business! yikes


                         lol

  43. Slarty O'Brian profile image88
    Slarty O'Brianposted 6 years ago

    Atheism is not a belief. It is lack of belief. Simple as that. Atheism tells you one thing and one thing only about a person, that they lack belief in god or gods. It tells you zero about what, if anything, they do believe.

    The idea that atheism is a religion is absurd. Is lack of belief in Bigfoot a religion?

 
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