Help me out with a project guys...
I've read here and there about conservative wing nuts who "blame" atheism on satanism.
It makes me think about the misconceptions and misinterpretations of atheism - which is not a religion by the way...
Do you view satanism as an evil religion, and if so - are you sure you understand it?
If you do believe it is evil, do you also believe atheism is evil?
Throw your thoughts at me! I'll check back throughout the weekend...
I think there are some who do not worship satan as much as they do Lucifer (The Bringer of Light) as almost a Prometheus figure. The one who gave knowledge (fire) to mankind.
I do not think that compares to atheism though.
Rather than get into theological knots, why don't we just call things evil that cause people to do evil things. By evil things I do not mean having pre-marital sex or smoking marijuana, I mean, you know, doing bad things to others without caring you are doing so.
This should be how we judge Satanism, Christianity, Buddhism or atheism
I don't view Satanism as an evil religion. I used to until I did some research about it. Satanism teaches about self-improvement, although many, like all religions, take it to extremes and turn that self-improvement into selfishness.
Well I don't believe I am a "conservative wing nut" so I'll just kindly share my thoughts on this with you.
My understanding is that atheism is not believing in God or satan, heaven or hell. Devoid of a higher power.
My understanding of satanism is that is believing in the same God and devil of christianity but rooting for the other team.
I can't say I think atheism is evil as I believe satanism to be. Rather I think the atheist may not be spiritually fully awake yet. (Not trying to insult anyone , just trying to share my view honestly)
In the seventies next week too - enjoy it if you can! Holly
I don't believe you are a wingnut either. But then again , you wouldn't go about spouting things like this:
Man has not been given the authority and power to define the nature of crime. That authority is rightfully reserved only by God.
~the honorable jackass Robert T. Lee
Therefore, only the chosen few who speak directly with god are able to translate his message, which then becomes law that the rest of the ignorant schmucks must follow. Or be damned to eternal hell.
sorry i went of topic in my own forum. although for the record I never mind OT conversations.
I was hoping you'd stroll through Holly. There are a few other great opinions here too which will help me out. Your understanding of satanism is correct, but this religion has as many variations as any other faith. Many satanists are atheists actually, who view satan as a symbol or an allegory to human nature.
Well hit the low 60's next week. Good enough for me!! Happy spring and be well Holly
When you say there are many variations and sects, I don't really know what you mean. More than one Satan? Or how I percieve the variations of Jesus or Allah? I am curious now! And I had not realized things could be symbolic not literal - silly I know. Chemo just never leaves the brain I guess
Not silly. But I love that you said that - it goes back to our ten commandments discussion the other night.
Ten commandments - literal.
Lady justice - symbolic. She can stay at the courthouse
Anyway, here are the two main forms of satanism
Luciferianism (worships the devil directly)
LaVeyan Satanism (satan is an allegory - a symbol of human nature)
there are several organized churches, each with it's own interpretations.
If you're curious, here is the wikipedia page
well my favorite store just e-mailed me a coupon for my birthday. yay! I'm going shopping, check back later.
I respect ya!
You are a "thinker."
You know that I will say that neither exist except in the imagination.
You will get many responses which will be founded on "zilch."
Zilch is one'a my fav words......:-)
Reading through most of the responses, I would tend to agree with the majority...Satanism is a belief in the devil/Satan and atheism is the belief in nothing (or at least in a supernatural sense).
Honestly, I think the confusion stems from the fact that most monotheistic religions believe that if you don't believe in God then you are going to hell. With that in mind, if you choose not to believe in a God (such as atheists) then you must be evil. If you are evil then you must be following Satan. It's an odd stretch, to say the least, but I think that's where the confusion stems from.
Are'nt some 'conservative wing nuts' involved in that 'skull n bones' secret society? which is supposed to be satanic
Awesome point. I've heard a little about skull & bones, but it is something I will be looking into more closely now.
BTW: I believe John Kerry was a member... so it can't really be classified as a conservative wing nut organization. At the very least, the conservative label needs to go. (I think lol)
i don't know anything about Satan worshipping but i wonder why anyone would worship the Devil...
Sources? The closest thing I've read to anything like that is not blaming atheism on Satanism, but blaming Satan- along the lines that Satan's greatest accomplishment is in convincing people he doesn't exist.
Actually that is a misrepresentation of it's true meaning. The point to that expression was/is that 'Satans' greatest accomplishiment is it's ability remain hidden in the shadows, to work in the hidden areas, to work unnoticed. To get things done without giving away who or what is doing the things necessary to accomplish whatever action is being attempted. Ultimately to not be held responsible for its actions. (as an example: NSA, ~No Such Agency~...or National Security Agency...)
Atheism: Latin . A : Without.
Theo : God
Atheism doesn't believe in anything. So it can't be Evil, nor Good.
Atheism is just a way of living without God.
Satanism is not necessarily Evil. It depends what Satanic Church you follow.
Of course , from a Christian point of view it's Evil
I have a problem understanding the religious point of view on this matter.
I don't believe in evil, so I can't relate.
There has been a lot of debate about atheism lately, whether it is a religion, what atheists DO believe, and so forth. I really want to see what the religious people think about this.
I need the other point of view
You don't believe in evil or don't believe in Satan?
No I don't and no I don't.
Evil is not something that can "be", it is only something that can be done. It's an action, not a entity.
I don't believe that anything or anybody can be purely and inherently evil.
if it can be done then it must exist.
I agree Satan is not a person, it is the personafication of a way of being or behaving.
Evil however does exist, as do many things that are neither living nor persons.
evil is a description of an action.
reckless is also a description of an action - yet there is no reckless lurking in the shadows...
It is not an entity.
BTW why isn't reck a word?
Or a way of being i.e. a reckless individual.
The fact that humanity has not seen fit to name reckless and personify it does not mean it is not possible to do. In the personification it takes on the characteristics of an entity. Being an entity or Not does not dis-prove the existence of the concept however. Evil is in existence, just like the wind exists and forshadowing exists.
'reck' is a word it is simply spelled wreck.
reckful/wreckful would be the word I would question about existing or not...
Evil as a concept - sure.
Your comment is interesting - humans have personified evil, yes, but that is a human perception and an abstract concept. Not an entity.
Yeah, reckful! Let's start using it, maybe it will become an internet sensation and land in the dictionary
to reck - To make account of; to care for; to heed; to regard.
It's an older usage.
Good point. If there's a reckless then there oughtta be a reckful.
also, if one doesn't belive in God, why would they believe in Satan?
I actually believe there is quite a lot of evidence that there might be a Devil. As for God, if he exists, he is DEFINITELY either not omnipotent, or not all-compassionate.
I never said I don't belive one way or the other.
My question is..(and there is a good chance I misunderstood the origional question here..if so, sorry.) But I thought it was saying..athiesm is to blame for Satanism. Im saying, if a person is an athiest, they won't belive in Satan either, let alone worship.
In my understanding Satanism is caused by religion. It is sort of meant to be its opposite. Not sure I explained that properly.
Atheism is just a lack of belief in supernatural deities, including Satan.
It actually seems impossible to me for the two to be tied together.
As far as i know satanists are from religions like Christianity/islam,Hinduism. Cannibals/satanists pretend to be part of those religions but worship Satan or some dark pagan gods. They're not good for society(i'll skip the evil part as i don't believe in evil).
Atheism is neither good nor bad, atheists are opportunistic.(again there are types and we've to peek in life of each individual atheist as we can't generalize atheism).
Maybe you don't believe in it as a "spiritual entity", but naturally you believe that evil deeds can be, and have been perpetrated, right?
So a man who rapes and kills a five year old isn't evil?
Evil doesnt exist, it is just a concept.
Conceptually that man would fit the concept of evil.
Concepts dont exist outside our heads, they are just classes our brain sorts the world into. So that man would be sorted into the evil class and this would then affect our actions towards that man based on that concept.
Again, there is no such thing as evil, if you believe there is, prove it.
From the point of view of Christianity Satanism would surely be viewed as evil as you are worshiping that which is all evil. However from a non-Abrahamic religion point of view you are simply choosing another God to worship and it would only be evil if you intend it to be evil. I've seen Christians do things in the name of their God that would be considered evil in many circles. It's more the intent behind it than the actual deity you are following.
As for atheism, a true atheist believes in nothing but life and usually try to live life to the fullest as this is the only life they have.
Where exactly would I find a Satanist Religion? Are there any meeting places where a person can worship Satan?
Also. how many Satanists exactly are there in the US?
Yes there are Satanist churches. I'm not sure where you would find one in America. It is more popular in Europe.
A Satanist church was in the news not too long ago. I think it was one in Italy. The leader, priest, whatever he is supposed to be was arrested for child rape. You could probably google it.
I dont know about most places, but here, satanist "churches" are more like groups of people in somebodies moms basement, at least in my expirence.
Strange things happen in Europe. Of course, if you live in Europe then you seem to remember there was a Satanist Church somewhere in the US (or was it China or the Philippines?). Very strange.
No change there then!
Italy, priest, child abuse.... seems normal!
I don't know how many Satanists there are in the US, but I assume there must be quite a few. You can check out the church of Azazel (which I believe is another name for Satan) in NY; it's on the web. Yes, they actually meet there and worship if I understand it correctly.
Also, if I understand correctly there are a couple of forms of Satanism: one in which the object of worship is Satan and another in which the object of worship is the self.
Check out the Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey - one can, if interested, worship Satan in the comfort of one's own home. (Just as one can worship God there if they so choose). Its rules are amazingly rational and kind of normal - given the title anyway (I'm not speaking of the ritualism here, just the list of 13 (I think) rules of behavior...I'll try to look them up, it's been a while).
I don't practice Satanism, but I have a couple of friends who do. It is a religion - and many Satanists seem to believe that God has abandoned us (someone else mentioned that there seemed to be plenty of evidence for Satan, and that if God does exist he wasn't compassionate - this echoes the Satanist's viewpoint). Many Satanists also believe that Satan is the one who actually loves humanity, and that in tempting Eve to eat the apple, he was attempting to help raise humanity to the level of Godhood (there are passages in the Genesis they use to support this theory). One branch of atheism (Luciferianism) teaches that Satan is the "Lightbringer" and worships him as such.
Atheism, on the other hand, is not a religion (although some people who are atheists seem to defend it and themselves with almost religious zeal); it seems to me that if one is an atheist they wouldn't believe in Satan or Lucifer as well as not believing in God.
Of course, I suppose I can see the viewpoint of those who believe that atheism is the result of Satan is working here on earth - haha: if he makes it so people just don't believe in God, that's good enough - but I think that's a pretty limited viewpoint. Besides, if there IS a God, I think He/It, being a GOD, would work in ways that we can't fathom. I'm not sure that belief is necessary right now.
As for my opinion on Satan: The Hebrew word "satan" is not a proper noun, it means "enemy." I think that "satan" is literally anything that stands in the way of good - not an entity or a person. We have merely personified evil instead of understanding how "satanic" applies to our own actions. IMHO it seems that the real "satanism" is behaving in hurtful, or evil, ways.
Anyway. That's my two cents. Have a great weekend!
I see Satanism as - first of all - having nothing to do with atheism. But - really - it is honest Christianity.
Look at Brenda - tell me that is not a Satanist right there.
Here is an excerpt of something I stumbled on:
The best way to understand the nature of atheism is to understand its author. satan is its author.
Atheism is therefore a doctrine of demons, and in many, if not all cases, atheists are demon-possessed.
Atheism is the ultimate of satanism.
~the honorable Robert T. Lee, Ten Commandments Commando and righteous whackjob
Oh now HOW did I miss this?
Well, Mark, I'm...honored that you've been listening to anything I say. Each insult is chalked up to the fact that the Word has gone out for your viewing pleasure...or for your viewing anyway.
I could tell you a story about Satan worship! But I don't think you'd quite be able to fathom it. Hint---although many Satan worshippers are bold and make a show of exotic chaotic rituals, etc., the truth is that Satan himself is usually just what the Bible describes him as----subtle. I know, 'cause I've been there before, catered to his jealousy of God, one "little" time.
It was enough to allow chaos to ensue in my life. It was enough to show me that I never wanted to go there again.
But I do digress, don't I?
How easily you would try to reel me in to hear the WHOLE story!
Not gonna happen. At least not right now.
You'll just have to wait. Don't it just rattle your chain?
Those who believe in satan, think god exist but deny his ways of achieving things in life and prefer short-cuts to salvation/pleasure/immortality/wealth/fame etc etc. They think belief in god is useless as it doesn't give quick-results for them. They don't accept karmic laws.
By the way, why dark avatar justine?
A person who doesn't believe in God couldn't possibly believe in Satan. As for Satanists being pagans ... the two don't exactly match up.
Satan is considered to be the negative figurehead in the Abraham religions, so he is seen as having an existence by them. However, the Abraham religions also believe that other gods do not exist, so pagans are seen as worshiping 'false gods'.
So ... satanists are all pagans, but not all pagans are satanists. For example, Hindus are considered pagans, but they do not worship Satan.
As for atheists, they don't worship anyone, so they aren't pagans, nor can they be Satanists. Instead, they believe that mankind ventures for himself and is solely responsible for all that happens in his own life. They don't conceive, nor do they want to believe in, a higher power.
Oddly enough, many people are agnostics nowadays ... believing that there is something out there greater than us, but they don't conceive that higher power as being God. It's kind of a fence balancing where they won't worship God, but they won't deny his existence altogether.
Personally, I currently see God as our personification of all that is good and Satan as our personification of all that is evil. Is that to say that either exists or doesn't exist? Again, just my personal view - but I think we lend existence to that which we are willing to believe in. As such, if you believe - then for you it exists. And if you don't believe - then for you it does not exist.
If this were not the case then we would all have been forced to believe by the hand of God long ago. And for those who would argue 'free will', if you read the bible enough you would realize 'free will' is not what the god of Abraham is asking for. As such, he's either unwilling or unable to enforce what he asks - or cares not what we do. Either way, we are free to live as we choose and we are solely responsible for the consequences or benefits of where such a life might lead.
So to speak ... we steer our own ship.
I think that Evil is more of a perseption.
A wittle wabbit would think that the wolf that ate half of his family committed an evil act.
The wolf cubs while eating their supper would think that this was an act of rightiousness.
For the purpose of answering the OP; If evil and rightiousness does exist; I would think that Evil could say that Atheists are caused by rightiousness as readily as the other way around.
To throw a litte scripture in here; It is a wise man that sees the action in inaction.
Sometimes we are making a choice ...when we don't.
Guilt by nonintervention.
I say ... Let us each be our own guide. But it never hurts to stop and ask for directions
"If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice"
exactly. And to recognize this complicates things drasticaly. I don't want to think about all the things that I should have done. I'm still sweeping up the mess for things that I did and shouldn't have.
My head hurts.
You cannot look at your past with regrets. You need to look for the teachable moments that you may have missed. Take the self out of your past and look at your memories objectively.
that is very hard to do. "take the self out of past"
You just look at your memories without the emotional attachment. Look at yourself as another player in the scenario. It is hard to begin with but it gets easier after awhile.
I agree... Cain't undo the past and even if you could, you do not know how many other things would be changed in the process.
That is why I like to think that everything works out for the best whether I like it or not.
Satan's best trick was to persuade folk that he did not exist, so atheism lends itself 100% to his deception.... no belief in God or Satan, or anything like that, and therefore blinkered to Satan's efforts to deceive and separated from Gods desire to receive them.
I would suggest that that was Lucifer's best trick...not satan's. I think that Lucifer is one thing and satan another.
Haha, i think this is one technique to protect faith in god. first by creating a opponent to god and keeping non-believers in that side.Nice theory but there is no empirical evidence(as usual) hence both satan & god exist solely in imagination of some religious minds.
Yup. I don't worship satan, also i don't hear any sounds from satan against god. any more symptoms for atheists ? Let me know i'll check that up.
How is what you do or don't do proof? So a deaf person proves that sounds don't exist?
That was wrt to agua's post.Whether a person is deaf or not can be verified with set of results we've set for those who can hear normally. But any assumed entity like satan (whose existence itself is first in question) making people not to believe in it or another entity(god) is pure assumption and there is no empirical evidence for that and we can at least verify where these assumptions are wrong. So if agua says i'm getting whispers from satan for not believing in god then it can be confirmed with my own opinion(for any such hallucination pattern for satan talk) or by checking with any psychiatrist.
You said, "Nice theory but there is no empirical evidence(as usual) hence both satan & god exist solely in imagination of some religious minds."
Which is stating that the lack of evidence proves that satan&God don't exist. Which is a self-refuting statement, because what your saying is lack of proof proves something.
Therefore if I don't have proof that your a murderer proves you to be one...Which is the obvious flaw, it just doesn't work that way...
So I asked you if you had proof of your assumption that the lack of evidence was evidence...
you said, "Yup. I don't worship satan, also i don't hear any sounds from satan against god. any more symptoms for atheists ? Let me know i'll check that up.
so I stated: How is what you do or don't do proof? So a deaf person proves that sounds don't exist?
Your last reply makes no sense to me at all hence the ???
Alright, do you declare any person a deaf just like that ? Or you try to find out all possible means to check if that person is deaf or not ?
The identification of a person being deaf or not has nothing to do with it.
You said the fact that you don't hear satan is proof that satan does not exist.
Therefore by your logic:
A deaf person does not hear sounds at all...therefore sounds do not exist. <---your logic not mine.
Satan's whisper is just another sound which is assumption without any proof. Person who can hear almost every type of sound but unable to hear sound which is based on someone's fantasy can't be related with deaf's example.And i didn't related it to begin with.
Again you take your dis-belief as proof...
Ok...Pretend a deaf person is being told that sounds exist. The deaf person 'listens' hears nothing and claims that is a lie, because they don't hear anything. Then the deaf person says can you prove sounds exist, and the hearing people all say yes. The deaf person refutes the proof that the hearing offer him, and says they are delusional because he can't hear it.
Being unable to hear something does not prove it doesn't exist.
Believing that something is false does not prove it to be false.
Saying something is false does not prove it to be false.
so again, Got Proof?
Skyfire does not need to disprove anything as nothing of any meaning has actually been asserted. For any positive assertion or claim, evidence must be given, else the claim is meaningless. No evidence has been given that he is being whispered to by satan, so it is not a valid claim. Therefore the claim is disproven.
Or do you have evidence?
Every good story line must have an antagonist in the plot.
I'm not sure if I personally view it as a religion.
Though, I'm sure it is. Anyone can worship anything they want to, and make it into their own religion I guess. Satanic rituals and belief values are not an exception to that rule.
I think that it lies in our definition of worship. What is worship? I think that it is ... what do we hold in highest regard. Yea I can write a hub definin it (so many pages)
but that about sums it up. HIGHEST REGARDS TO
If ya aint worship nuttin else then you must be worshipin yer self.
Yes, I will agree that many people do worship themselves.
So here is a question for you, if the bible says that our bodies are our temples- then technically worshiping ourselves is respectable behavior. Right?
I don't believe in anything that Paul says. Every thing written by Paul is a best guess on his part, an assumption or opinion. However, what are your thought on that?
I agree that most if not all that Paul says is based upon his opinion of what he saw and/or heard.
As far as our bodies being the "OUR" own temple of God.
Maybe so? We are still not to worship the Temple of God; Even the big one, (that was in Jerusalem or anyplace else); in "HIGHEST" regard. Not suposed to burn it down or use it for a trash bin. keep it presentable enough to have him come visit. Don't think that he minds a few cobwebs or dust on the coffee table. My thoughts anyway
Nope, i'm ready for any set of data that you can present to support your proof instead of word-play..
Being told to believe and things which are verifiable both are poles apart.
again in this case you're ignoring that deaf can't hear what people will say so any thing further this part will not proceed. and again i'm repeating we can verify if the person is deaf or not. can you verify if any assumption made on someone's belief without any proof is anyway related to this ? can whispers of some imaginative entity has proof to begin with ?
Can you show me any way to verify there are whispers of satan that actually exist in reality for all other than those who believe in it ? does this proof disappears for those who don't believe in it ?so again back to square one, any proof for satan's whispers ?if you come up with single empirical evidence for satan's whispers,i'll say my view against it is false..shall we proceed ?
You guys are having a fine time without me, but I'll throw my take on it into the ring.
You will not 'hear' Satan's whispers, you utter them...
When someone is (by default) under the dominion of Satan, even if they refuse to believe it, indeed especially when they refuse to believe it, they will be used as a mouthpiece for Satan, just as believer utter the words of God when they are under His authority.
Satan's big plan is to separate mankind from God, always has been, always will be, and in order to do that he 'inspires' folk to attack, denigrate or deny God and especially Christ.
I've belonged to both teams, I know what is happening.
That is pure assumption..and again it contradicts with another set of satan believers...
again one assumption after another, i can say mere sweeping statements without any proof for satan's existence.
Anyone to even consider this theory, there needs to be proof for satan's existence(plus god as well). Just by making another assumption like" illusion of non-existence is satan's plan" sounds like escapism and more of faith protection word play..
LOL, if that aint the kettle calling the pot black...
You assume your assumptions are correct and tell him 'his' mere assumptions don't count because they are assumptions and are without empirical evidence, which you have none of either to support your position....LMAO.
skyfire said: "can whispers of some imaginative entity has proof to begin with ?"
Can you prove it is an Imaginary entity? That's the point.
Got proof? or you just believe it to be so, therefore it is?
Person who claims such entity exist has burden of proof, my proof is any claim for such entity is just another assumption unless backed up with empirical evidence. Lack of empirical evidence makes any assumption a simple hypothesis. So my proof is that there is no empirical evidence for such entity.
In other words no you don't have any proof. You believe it therefore it has to be true. OK Thanks.
If I claim that an invisible fairy exists in my pocket, just because you cannot disprove it, does that mean that the fairy exists?
Of course not, the burden of proof is on me to provide evidence, else my claim is not a valid claim. If I dont have evidence of the fairy, the fairy does not exist, simple basic logic.
Anybody can claim anything, but without evidence its meaningless.
So if you claim that satan is real and talking to atheists, then you have a burden of proof to give evidence that your claim is true. Else according to the rules of logic, you are disproven.
You cannot disprove the fairy in my pocket, does that really mean you should consider it a valid possibility?
What if I say my fairy is controlling your mind from my pocket, you cannot disprove that, should you consider that a possibility? If you answer yes, then I further claim that in order to break its hold you should touch your nose twice and then count backwards from 5.
Did you follow those steps?
Why not, because you recognised that it was NOT A VALID POSSIBILITY!!!
If evidence is not given, then according to the rules of logic, (look them up), then no valid claim has been made. Otherwise anyone can claim anything and it would have to be regarded as a valid claim.
In other words i have a proof that shows you can't back up your belief on satan existence with any empirical evidence and you're making assumption and creating stories based on something to which you can't give proof but push burden of proof to the one who disagrees with your belief. Still i'm interested in knowing how example of deaf is related to "person who can't hear satan voices".
Here's something I just considered ...
Everyone believes in oxygen, yet no one has actually seen it .. we've just experienced its effects. So, why do we all believe in it? Because it's something we all universally can say we have experienced ... we all breathe oxygen.
So, if we haven't all universally all felt the effects of God, how can we all believe in it? After all, we're being asked to accept this concept on the merit it's been experienced by others, but not ourselves. Isn't that rather odd to just accept something because of a claim made by someone else?
And while we're on the topic ... why the peek-a-boo game? If God wants us all to believe then why doesn't he make believers out of us? It wouldn't take much ... just one physical manifestation for each of us. And if we are to say that God were incapable of that then we are stating he isn't all powerful or doesn't care to be bothered.
If I wanted people to believe in me, and it was that important to me, I'd be making mass appearances everywhere, and not to just those who believed. In fact, I would consider appearing before my believers a waste of time as they already believed, and by showing up in front of the doubters and making believers out of them I would reinforce that I was real and very believable.
We're a very impressionable species ... heck, years ago we landed airplanes in the Micronesian Islands and the primitive people there founded 'cargo cults', in which they considered us gods and our planes were seen as winged chariots. Look it up if you don't believe me.
Fact is, it doesn't take much to make believers out of us all. So why do we find ourselves chasing after God when it's HIS idea that we should believe in him.
And on another note, why does one of the most ancient religious texts depict a great flood? Proof of God? Nope. It comes from the ancient Sumerians, who believed in many gods - they were pagans. And yet, their story was much like the biblical account.
And how is it that men worshiped many gods at a time when they were being asked to worship one? Did they learn nothing from the flood? If one giant flood doesn't tell everyone to mind their Ps and Qs, what does?
Again, belief is a need for us to explain that which we cannot understand and for us to feel control is offered for that which we cannot control.
I read your rebuttal and, in actuality, it made me even more distant from belief ...
You state how God doesn't do miracles anymore because he doesn't want to be feed the egos of others ... and yet ... he didn't mind feeding the egos of the people back then. Now, I could understand if we all were immortal and witnessed those miracles for ourselves, but what about us who weren't alive back then? That includes all of us. Are we to believe blindly?
Ya know, it's kinda interesting how the God of ancient times brought about wars, plagues, floods ... aren't these the things we shoulder on Satan now? It's sad, but if a new war erupted in Israel right now half of the people would say it was the work of God and half would say it was the work of Satan. Perspective determines who gets the credit and mankind is left to be blameless.
This is why I hate religion as it seeks to make us all blameless. We don't commit evil acts, we are tricked by the devil. We don't say evil things, the devil makes us say them. We are not evil, we are persuaded to do bad things.
And in the end are we required to apologize to those we offended? Nope, religion has that one covered too, as we can just apologize to God and that makes it alright.
Religion is nothing more than an absolution from humanity, allowing us to behave badly and never apologize to those we injure. It's about not accepting responsibility for our own actions, and that's something I never allow of my kids. And before you say praying to God and asking for his forgiveness is accepting responsibility, ask the other guy who you just punched in the face (because Satan told you to do it) if he feels better about it all because you apologized to God.
Don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with believing in a higher power, so long as you understand it as the first ancients did. They weren't worshiping God in the sense that he was some being there to do their bidding and absolve them of all guilt, they were thanking the power of nature for providing for them and the message got totally convoluted as we felt the need to humanize nature and bring it closer to us so we could see it as an actual being.
I'm not without belief. I am thankful for the sunshine that keeps me warm; I'm thankful for the rain that wets the harvest that feeds me; and I'm thankful for the oxygen in the air that allows me to breathe. But that's nature that provides all of those things, and I see no need to humanize it or ask any more of it. It simply is what it is, regardless of my intervention.
And those who subscribe to religion know this to be true, but fail to admit this to themselves. For when you pray for something and it doesn't happen you absolve it all by saying 'We don't always get everything we want', and yet when we DO get what we want, we see it as a gift.
Guess what ... it's a coin flip. It happens or it doesn't. And we can't believe in something because every now and then the coin flips the right way. That's no better than guessing a number between 1 and 10 and thanking God when we guess the number right as he must have divinely chose to intercede and make our guess correct.
So, why then would I entertain the idea that religion isn't a totally bad thing? Why wouldn't I be all for tearing down every church and pulling apart every congregation.
It's all very simple .... because complex creatures such as ourselves all require hope. and for some of us, religion is the only source from which we have been able to obtain it.
And so, for you, if religion offers hope than I am all for you believing in it, but understand I derive my hope from something else - knowing that I am fully in charge of my own life and responsible directly to those that I injure. I don't seek a higher power to make up for my human frailties. Instead, I work hard to absolve them as I can and apologize directly to those who I might wrong along the way. And I do not blame Satan for my misdeeds, as no one whispers into my ears. My wrongs are made of my own lack of knowing how every decision I make will affect others, and I do my best to learn from these misguided steps and to mend what I break along the way.
And here is the iceberg you have been waiting for ... When you save someone ... you convert their way of thinking, nothing more. When I save them I actually do something to make their life better ... like offer food to a starving man, offer shelter to a homeless woman, and the list goes on.
So, do you really save people or do you just pass on their needs to a being that you choose to believe will do it for you?
This is a Rebuttal. Enjoy.[/b]
***I believe the personification of Satan that is popularly held by the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim faiths to be erroneous. To whit: Satan is suppose to be the ultimate form of evil, which means by 'his' very nature he only commits acts of evil. Doing Evil to Evil is the act of doing goodness, and kind acts. Satan therefore would also have to be an entity that does good deeds. This paradox is better described in my Hub 'The great paradox, the balance of good and evil'. Which I believe describes why the Satan as a person concept is flawed.***
In some respects we agree...but all the things I mentioned you will find in the King James Bible and they are standard of Christian beliefs.
Perhaps you are more free of the tether than I had thought, and if this is the case then I am happy that you can see God as a force of nature rather than actual physical being, anxious to wait on us hand and foot.
I need tylenol, Mikel, LOL. Thinking that far around the circle would give most a good case of "wtf??"
Doing evil to evil is brilliant.
God made hell for his adversary Satan, and for those angels who followed Satan. But the Bible says some people will also "have their part" in that lake of fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels....
Thats not proof brenda, if "its written in a book" is proof, then I can prove that wrong, because its written in a different book that you are wrong.
Sorry if you don't believe it, but that is my proof.
"It is written"! The Word says it; Jesus said it in response to Satan; I know it because I believe Him.
If I claim that an invisible fairy exists in my pocket, just because you cannot disprove it, does that mean that the fairy exists?
No, it means that it is a possibility. The inability to prove something or dis-prove something means, there is a lack of proof, and that is all it means. Without proof to the contrary, anything is possible.
Of course not,<---- baseless assumption
the burden of proof is on me to provide evidence, else my claim is not a valid claim.
True, To prove your belief you must provide evidence and this includes the burden of proof to the negative, the proof of non-existence.
If I dont have evidence of the fairy, the fairy does not exist, simple basic logic.
Fallacy, simple flawed logic. Your statement should say "If I don't have any evidence I can prove nothing, therefore the existence of the Fairy, I cannot dis-prove, is still possible." If you don't have evidence, you cannot make a proven claim. An un-proven claim either way, can be based on anything; instinct, assumptions, un-founded belief, and faith. Having no proof does not prove your stance in the positive or the negative.
Anybody can claim anything, True.
but without evidence its meaningless.
No, without evidence it is unproven, a theory, that doesn't make it meaningless.
So if you claim that satan is real and talking to atheists, then you have a burden of proof to give evidence that your claim is true.
Else according to the rules of logic, you are disproven.
False, the rules of logic state that I have an unfounded, un-proven belief or 'theory', that may possibly be true, unless proven to be false.
"If I claim that an invisible fairy exists in my pocket, just because you cannot disprove it, does that mean that the fairy exists?
Of course not," - me
"Of course not ------ baseless assumption" - you
My statement was that just because you cannot disprove something does not automatically prove it. You call this baseless assumption. By your logic then the fact that you cannot disprove my pocket fairy means that the fairy is PROVEN to exists!!!
"No, without evidence it is unproven, a theory, that doesn't make it meaningless."
THEORY - a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of ...
" To prove your belief you must provide evidence and this includes the burden of proof to the negative, the proof of non-existence."
You can never prove a negative, the basic rules of logic says thats a fallacy.
The argumentum ad ignorantiam [fallacy] is committed whenever it is argued that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proven false, or that it is false because it has not been proven true.[...] A qualification should be made at this point. In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence despite searching, as positive evidence towards its non-occurrence. (Copi 1953)
The two most common forms of the argument from ignorance, both fallacious, can be reduced to the following form:
Because there appears to be a lack of evidence for one hypothesis, another chosen (often opposite) hypothesis is therefore considered likely or proven.
Something is currently unexplained, or insufficiently understood or explained, so it is not (or must not be) considered true, and the opposite position is considered likely.
To avoid this fallacy, the onus is on thorough investigation for information about the subject(s) being considered or hypothesized about.
Think a little more before you answer, your worst fallacy was asking for proof of a negative.
"Do you view satanism as an evil religion, and if so - are you sure you understand it?"
To answer your question, Satanism is certainly a religion and it even has it's own bible. My first husband was a follower of Anton La Vey, so yes I do understand it. Whether or not it is evil all depends on one's perspective.
There are crazy people out there who may claim to be "satanists" or belong to certain cults that perform outlandish rituals, but they are not true followers of the actual Church of Satan, and they may use their own brand of worship to do bad things in the world. But truly evil people exist in all walks of life, Jim Jones of the People's Temple and the pedophile priests in the Catholic church for example.
My personal view of satanism it that it's relatively harmless and just like most other religions is full of high drama, theatrics, silly ceremonies,and ridiculous rituals.
Thanks for you input.
I love the diversity of faith here at HP.
I've looked at satanism only briefly. I saw a TV show about faith in prison and they mentioned satanism.
Hang on - I'm not implying that satanists are criminal - I'm implying that if satanism is a legitimate religion that is allowed to be celebrated in prison, then there is an awful lot of misconception. My image of rebellious teenagers enacting rituals for shock value alone was wrong. Although that does happen - it is not a true expression of faith.
Anyway, what I read surprised me. There are many concepts in satanism that are also part of humanism. Celebration of self, loyalty to friends... is was quite an eye-opener to me.
I'm not really sure if the criminals who profess to be satanists really are what they say, or if it's just something they do to taunt and abuse the system.
In the satanic bible it states that we create our gods, rather than the other way around. Also the "7 deadly sins" are just human nature and not sins at all and that greed and envy are motivators. Since there is no belief in an afterlife the idea is to indulge rather than abstain, the object being that you have all your happiness and satisfaction in this life because this is all there is. So, I suppose that could drive some people to commit crimes and land themselves in prison.
Satanism is not what the religious nut cases, cultists, or the media make it out to be and it's certainly not about psycho teenagers sacraficing animals. In fact Anton La Vey stated that to harm an innocent animal is a gross injustice and magically useless.
I bolded the lines in your post that are basic philosophies of Humanism.
I can see how somebody could make the leap from satanism to atheism because these concepts are identical.
Stage 1: Worship god and live by the church's laws in order to have an eternal afterlife
Stage 2: Rebel against god, worship satan and live by the morals that will provide a happy life in the here and now
Stage 3: Deny god and satan altogether, keep the satanism morality and become an atheist.
That's my best attempt at getting inside the head of somebody who makes the claim that satanism is the cause of atheism.
Yeah, those nut cases will pervert any philosophy. And, every segment of society has criminals. Even the christians
Thanks again for your insight
Mark Knowles aka Antessor wrote:
You cannot disprove the fairy in my pocket, does that really mean you should consider it a valid possibility?
No, it means I have no proof either way.
What if I say my fairy is controlling your mind from my pocket,
you cannot disprove that,
which means it is possibly true, but unproven
should you consider that a possibility?
If you answer yes, then I further claim that in order to break its hold you should touch your nose twice and then count backwards from 5.
Got Proof? Just because YOU claim it does not make it so.
Did you follow those steps?
Because you failed to provide any proof or reason for me to do so.
because you recognised that it was NOT A VALID POSSIBILITY!!!<----baseless assumptions again, Got Proof?
If evidence is not given, then according to the rules of logic, (look them up), then no valid claim has been made.
Fallacy, no proof means no proof, it doesn't mean something else.
Otherwise anyone can claim anything and it would have to be regarded as a valid claim.
Fallacy, again, proof is required to make it valid, not to make it a claim. Anyone can claim anything, proof is required only to prove it.
You contradict yourself:
"proof is required to make it valid" - M
"without evidence it is a theory" - M
DEFINITION: THEORY - a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of ...
How is a theory, NOT a valid explanation?
How can you claim to argue logically if you refuse to follow the most basic of all the laws of logic: the rule of remaining consistent within ones argument. LOLOLOL
Who says I claimed anything, Got Proof?
Who says I claimed that you claimed anything? Got proof?
"Mark Knowles aka Antessor wrote:" - Mikel
You are claiming I am Mark Knowles?
You flatter me greatly.
I notice that you completely ignored everything I said in my rebuttal, in favor of repeating your previous post. Woefull.....
Satanists of the Church of Satan do not believe in Satan but neither do they believe in Jesus or the Biblical God so they are close to atheism I suppose.
Alot of religions seem to have fabricated gods. I don't know Satan exists any more than I know God exists. What if Satan is just a symbolic manifestation to represent mankind's ego or darker side? That means we are all as satanic as we are divine. One is not without the other. Seems pretty consistent to me. I've never met anyone who is 100% goodness. And I've met some really bad apples, but they actually did have a good trait here and there.
For me it's like the Santa Syndrome. Believe until proven wrong. I hated that. It was a lie from the beginning (because of the way it was told) and when it was proven as a lie to me, it made me instantly start questioning whether there was a God or not.
So no, I'm NOT going to believe in Satan just because people say that he/she/it is real. As with so many things, there is just a huge lack of material evidence. I don't think all bad comes from Satan any more than I think the darkness in the universe is evil. That would make the universe mostly evil and God rather powerless to overcome it with light.
Makes no sense.
What if satan is just a regular guy who moved out of heaven for a little adventure but the angels gossiped so much about him and spread mean rumors that he just got a bad rep. For no reason at all except the mean angels didn't like him.
It sucks, getting bad press.
Maybe Satan was tricked by the other angels because he was different. They lied to him and told him of all the wonders of a place outside of heaven, but didn't tell him that once he left, he could never return. Satan is just exacting his revenge.
I should know, I'm his dad.
That's like the musical "Wicked." Glenda the good witch isn't so good and Elphaba the "bad" witch just got a lot of bad press.
Not everything is as we originally perceive it.
I look at it like this:
if I didn't believe that murder really happened. Does that mean I think murder is ok? Not in my book.
Anything that denies God is evil, for God is good. There are only two forces (dieties): good and evil. Man knows both since eating of the tree of knowledge...and are without excuse.
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