A thread for Mark Knowless, who wants to know about forgiveness.......

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Brenda Durhamposted 13 years ago
Here ya go, Mark.
An open thread for you to get feedback about divorce/adultery and if/how Christians in particular have obtained forgiveness for those sins.

Or make one of your own, whatever floats your boat!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Still pushing your pro divorce and adultery agenda, huh?
  
  Whatever you may say - sorry - I know the Truth hurts.
  
  It is wrong. Morally wrong.
  
  My Grandparents would have never considered it...
  
  But - they were moral people.
  
  With standards.
  
  I don't expect you to understand.
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  Padrinoposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Where are these morals derived from?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I got them out of a book. Is that wrong?
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  Padrinoposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Don't know, what book was it?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What difference does that make? Or are you here to push pro divorce as well?
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  Padrinoposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am pro divorce!
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  mjane24posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  devorce is sin
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  BDazzlerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What twilight zone episode have I entered where the active atheist is promoting traditional moral values based on the traditions of the elders....
  
  OK ... Mark, congratulations, you've managed to move the needle on my weird-crap-o-meter.
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  marinealways24posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  I think he is doing it in mocking the bible rather than promoting it. I don't know though, he could have turned to God.
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  luvpassionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually...I think he's just baiting Brenda.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  haha
  Highly possible!
  
  I am now properly subdued by Mark and waiting to see if he can figure out this issue of divorce/remarriage. He doesn't believe me when I say sins like that can be washed in the blood of the Lamb, so I thought as time goes on he might glean a Word of wisdom from someone who might stop by and drop him one.
  I am praying for you Mark.
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  marinealways24posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So because someone gets a divorce, you have to go murder a lamb? That's not nice.
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  Marisa Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda, if you wonder why atheists and agnostics get so annoyed with Christians on these forums, it's because they have an agenda to convert people.
  
  The Religion forum is a place to debate the topic intelligently. Not to preach or to attempt to convert. Please cease and desist this offensive behaviour.
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda likes to offend. She believes it's her moral duty.
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  Marisa Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Then she should be ashamed of herself.
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I certainly would be.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Now now livelonger and Marisa Wright-----
  
  NO HIJACKING!
  
  This thread's supposed to be attracting people who can set Mark straight on his wrong views about forgiveness.
  
  You two are not being helpful at all.
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  Ohmaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Are you sure that is what you intended? Because it seems to me that you are looking for someone to confirm that you have the right to judge another persons morals, opinions, and beliefs.
  Just saying...?
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What's wrong with Mark's views on forgiveness?
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  Ohmaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have no problem with them but I think Brenda does.
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, yeah, that's the thing about forum threads. Sometimes they go in a direction you might not like. As long as it's on topic, then it's not hijacking.
  
  I will say as an observer that if you claim that only some sinners who continue to sin can be forgiven by God, then that means you are applying a very selective reading of scripture, one that is convenient to your particular (ongoing) sin and to your own bigotries towards people who are not like you.
  
  How's that? You're welcome.
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think that is exactly what it is.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So, instead of your former position of harrasser, you're now simply an observer, albeit an obviously biased one. I like that. (I could be being sarcastic there, like you are; one just never knows, does one?! ha).
  
  You, like Mark, have no concept of Biblical forgiveness.
  (Hint---you're leaving out repentance (turning from one's wicked ways and accepting Jesus's forgiveness which is just waiting there for you to grab)).
  You're welcome too.
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You and I have very different definitions on many, many words. Since I'm not the subject of this thread, I'm an observer.
  
  I do understand what Christians say they believe about forgiveness. If you want to take one understanding of it, then both you and gay Christians are forgiven. If you want to look at it another way, then both you and gay Christians are not forgiven. Saying you're forgiven but gay Christians are not is just wishful thinking.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Are those "gay" Christians actively living a homosexual lifestyle?
  
  I've answered your questions on this before, livelonger. But maybe you didn't understand what repentance means.
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  They are living an active homosexual lifestyle like you are living an active adulteress lifestyle.
  
  You can't truly be repentant if you're still committing the sin, right?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Just because a person is divorced doesn't mean they're still living in sin.
  
  You're trying to equate deliberate sodomy/and/or/other homosexual activity with the natural (and Godly) union of a man and a woman together.
  No matter how much you'd like for it to be so, it doesn't gel.
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What does God say about sin? No 1 sin is worse nor better than any other sin. Divorcée', gay... whatever! Though being gay is not expressly forbidden by the commandment yet adultery is. hmmm...
  
  So somehow you believe that your sin is not as bad as being gay. That is very interesting. Have you gone back to your ex yet? Unless you go back to your x, you are actively living the life of an adulteress and by your judgments alone, you will not be forgive.
  
  So maybe you should be thinking a little deeper about the circumstances of your life and why you believe you will be forgiven regardless of you continual act of adultery and a homosexual wont.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm just curious, can anyone provide passages from the bible that do in fact show divorce/adultery to be sins that are forgiven? From what I've read, divorce IS considered adultery if one remarries.
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  BDazzlerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  John 8:1-11
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  He also tells her to go and sin no more. (i.e. adultery is still a sin, but she shouldn't be killed for it) Staying in a second marriage after getting a divorce is a continued sin; if you want to stop sinning, the Bible tells you to leave your second spouse and return to your first.
  
  (I don't personally believe any of this - I have no problem with divorce - but I'm pointing it out to show the problem divorced and remarried fundamentalists like Brenda who obsess about the condemnable sin of homosexuality face when they live in the same state of sin themselves)
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That does not specifically state anything about divorce followed by remarriage. It only talks about adultery.
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  BDazzlerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Matthew 19:1-12
  
  Please note: I believe verse 11 holds the key to your question.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, it wasn't, but verse 8 says a mouthful:
  
  Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
  
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, it should be "fornication" not "marital infidelity" (according to fundamentalists' favorite translation, the KJV) as the exception. "Fornication" (porneia) was illicit sex before marriage. Adultery (moicheia), involving a married person, was not an allowable exception.
  
  Apparently, the exception for discovery of pre-marital sex (i.e. a new husband discovers on their wedding night that his wife was not, in fact, a virgin) was made as the only acceptable grounds for divorce.
  
  Of course, Brenda and other fundamentalists know this. She knows she's living a life of unrepentant sin. But she engages in classical psychological projection, and projects her feeling of guilt and maybe impending doom onto gay people and those who support them.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Mine says fornication. But - it doesn't say a thing about being allowed to divorce your husband. Mine is pretty adamantly about men only. No mention of women being allowed a divorce for any reason whatsoever.
  
  Certainly - women do not have the right to a divorce. Only that their husband has the right to put them away for "fornication"
  
  No where in my bible are women awarded any such rights.
  
  It is also clear that anyone who marries a woman such as Brenda who has been "put away" - Both commit adultery. No question or interpretation will change what my bible says.
  
  "whofo marrieth her which is put away, both commit adultery."
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  BDazzlerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The greek word "porneia" from which we get the word "pornography" I believe is a generic term for sexual misconduct.
  
  (See my hub "The Greatest Sin" for my interpretation on what "Sin" is and whether this is "sin". )
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And pigs might fly!
  
  Why do you think any sensible person would suddenly get a lust for the sky fairy? I don't think he would believe in leprechauns either.
  Some things are common sense, something very uncommon in religious beliefs.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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  Obscure Divineposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Easy now, the series "Twilight Zone" kicks ass! I have all of the shows...
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  BDazzlerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No doubt ... I'm pretty sure this is the one where the world is getting hotter then they wake up and find it's cooler ... no wait, that's the global warming threads ...
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  Justine76posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  that was a cool episode, I was thinking about it the other day when it was snowing and the sun wss out and my flowers were in bloom...
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  Ohmaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
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marinealways24posted 13 years ago
There are no morals or sins.
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  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So why argue with the religionist????
  Oh yea, it's just fun.
  
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  marinealways24posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What do morals and sins have to do with arguing?
  I learn from the arguments, I learn how a persons mind devolves when putting all of their mind into one belief.
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Insinuating that your mind doesn't devolve?
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  marinealways24posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think everyones mind devolves to an extent as they age, but there is a difference, this is by nature, not by free will that has someone read the same believe book infinite times.
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Greek Oneposted 13 years ago
Incidently, St. Mark's feast day is coming up in a few days.

Will you be celebrating, Mr Knowles?

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Obscure Divineposted 13 years ago
Why would a so-called "Christian" spell Mark's last name in such a fashion that it would symbolize a doltish being, while supposedly being morally correct? Would Christ do such things? Ha-ha! Please enlighten us, Brenda...
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  hmm..
  
  Did I make a typo?
  
  Kinda like Mark makes typos when he spells Christian?
  
  (sigh) we're all such frail humans subject to error.....
  
  I hate typos! Sorry about the typo!
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  Obscure Divineposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Simple sarcasm = no valid point, but it does help one abide by the rules without so-called violating other peoples' rights! Ha-ha!
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iantoPFposted 13 years ago
LOL! Mark, I hope you never leave these forums, you may not drive the christians to writing Hubs but you sure send them inspiration for the forums.
As for myself, I've managed to keep two of the ten commandments;
I haven't killed anyone........yet
and I've never coveted my neighbour's ox, nor his ass come to think of it.
So will I ever be forgiven for the others? am I in a better situation being 8 out of 10, compared to someone who is 9 or 10 out of 10?
Perhaps it's weeping and wailing and teeth gnashing for me.
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Obscure Divineposted 13 years ago
Oh, this thread is about something else...

I don't believe in monogamy; I believe in the way of the caveman via naturalistic behavior. Praise be the pre-historic club!
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What about the "me Tarzan, you Jane" concept?
  I think "they" (albeit fictional characters showing a certain lifestyle) were very possessive of each other.....
  Don't you think Tarzan and Jane were right?
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  Obscure Divineposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The primitive core of the Homo sapiens was way more "right" than any organized corruption in today's times, will ever be.
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Greek Oneposted 13 years ago
Mark and Brenda sitting in a tree..
Talkin' 'bout evolution while kiss-iss-ing
First came Adam.., then came Eve?
Or did we come from a Mon-on-key?

I think there is a certain internet passionate chemistry between the two of you guys that is palpable. After all, there is a fine line between love and hate
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No kissin' goin' on here!
  
  I do Love Mark's soul with the Love of God, I don't deny that.
  
  Better not tell him that, though, 'cause I don't think he Loves me at all. It will only agitate him further! Stop that, Greek!
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  Greek Oneposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, do you love Brenda at all?
  
  (I feel like cupid!!)
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  BDazzlerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Outer limits maybe?
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Ohmaposted 13 years ago
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Super Chefposted 13 years ago
Sarcasm is the best sense of humour there is!!! I thrive on it.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
I'm goina pretend that this thread is serious.

Do ya wanna know what forgiveness really is? Ya don't just get it for saying I'm sorry, please forgive me Lord.

I've done many many things in my life that I knew wrong when I was doin um, that the bible says this is a sin. But it was just too much fun to quit doin them.
Yea I've said " Lord please forgive me for "all" of my sins .......yada yada yada. But I think that I realy recieved forgiveness after I remembered doing those things each and every one that I remembered, and in retrospect could see the lives that were damaged through my previous actions.
It wasn't till after I realized the hurt that I had caused and felt just a little bit of that hurt, that I felt that I was truly forgiven.
To sum all it all up in just a few words "No pain no gain".
Ya caint JUST SAY I'm sorry Lord please forgive me. Ya need to hurt over it at least a little bit. It's your hurting over it that is going to keep ya from wanting to do it again. And then forgiveness really comes.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Jerami,
  I don't often agree with your views, but on this one you're spot-on....
  
  I won't elaborate on how it all came about or how long it took me, but that is how I obtained forgiveness.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  With ya Jerami. But this thread is about the pro-divorce and adultery agenda sum a them thar xtians b pushin'.
  
  Kapeesh?
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  BDazzlerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  AH ... I see so you are saying that alghough where sin abounds and grace abounds more that we SHOULD NOT sin more so grace should abound more!
  
  Good job Mark, you and the apostle Paul are spot on!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  zackly. Now tell Brenda to stop pushin the pro divorce agenda based on retroactive pre-forgiveness.
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  Davidsonofjesieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  most people dont realize that when people get married,not only do they make a promise to each other but to GOD also!!!
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  OK we'll goith divorse.
  Divorce is a sin cause when ya get one it hurts others that you are unaware are in the picture. If ya got kids either of this mariage or not you are putting a stumbling block in front of them. Most divorses are for selfish reasons like..... Poor pittiful me; I'm not happy any more.He/she doesn't do what I tell um to do.
  But, if the above is not the reason and you know that somebody is going to die..... I'd go with the lesser of two sins, and run as fast as I could. Here is the problem.. I would still want to have sex. ?????? Or shoot myself?
  I'm afraid that I am goina sin. Imight pray about it first.
  I'd say Lord; Give me a sigh. If I should raise the flag let the flag pole be there in the AM. If ya don't think I should? let the pole be gone.
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  Daniel Carterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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  Ohmaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Grandpa. Where have you been Hiding?
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  Daniel Carterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I've had some setbacks just lately. I needed to take a break. It's been a time of reflection and figuring out what to do next.
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  Ohmaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I hope all is well now! I missed seeing you around.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am sorry. I thought that I had mentioned that I have been divorsed once and widowed twice. I must have inadvertently left this out when editing or stated so in an earlier post.
  
  I wasn't judging divorce, adultry, Gayness or stealing cookies. I intended to be understood as being non judgmental what so ever. God did not apoint me to judge anyone.
  
  I must not be very good at saying what I'm thinking.
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  Daniel Carterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I probably pounced on you because my feelings are a bit raw right now, so I apologize for what I did.
  
  All is well. Thanks for being gentle.
  
  I just need to regroup. A lot is happening right now.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not a problem.I understand how it goes sometimes.
  Hope it all works out for your likeing.
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  Ohmaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thinking good thoughts for you my friend.
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elayne001posted 13 years ago
looks like some of you all might be just looking for excuses for committing adultery - so you must have no moral compass because you are "past feeling" - so you either need to repent or just go with it all the way to hell. Just MHO.
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  Obscure Divineposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What's adultery? A violation of a contract that someone (which made money off of - in today's world) made you sign via papers or a supposed "ring of trust" by way of a wedding band/ring that someone also made money off of? Hmm, there is, today, more money to be made off of the damn divorce, so what's the point? Adultery......whatever ya want to call it, the fact is that "marriage" is an integrated "law" upon your belief system and nothing more!
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  Greek Oneposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  you old romantic, you!
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  Obscure Divineposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks!
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Greek Oneposted 13 years ago
i am against extra-marital sex, pre-marital sex, and on nights where there is a great hockey game I want to watch, i'm even against marital sex
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  Obscure Divineposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Bi-Polar?
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  Greek Oneposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  no.. i only have one pole.. but it is very impressive
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  sophsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Lol!!
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  BDazzlerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What?!?!?! Now you're claiming that some polar bears swing both ways? What's up with that?
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  Obscure Divineposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, he did seem confused on his swing/delivery of it all. I'm trying to give the poor Zeus worshipper another option. Ha-ha!
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Gotta go start the smoker to put steaks on the fire box.
Catch ya in a few.
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  Obscure Divineposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Rib-eye, T-bone, or what...? Com'on, ya can't leave us salivating like that!
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  OK fire is gettin right. I think it's called Boston cut.
  Tbone with the bone cut off of it I think. I know it is goina be tender. Been in the frig. for three days with all tha stuff on it. Forked it this AM for about five minutes. It's in the smoker now waiting for somebody to get home in a few minutes then to the grill in the firebox.
  Take it off when the internal thermoter hits 124 degrees.
  bearly cooked to med. Rare.
  
  mmmmmmmm mmmmmmmm good
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frogdroppingposted 13 years ago
I'm lost. Show me the way. What exactly is this about? Mark's forgiveness. Someone elses? Divorce and adultery are right/wrong?

And the above is a genuine moment of confusion. I've been in the shadows too much of late.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
I think everyone should think about this....
Suppose that I hate ------ (you fill in the blank as you may)
" I'm standing in front --------- at heavens gate.

God comes out and looks at both myself and ------, and asks me. What do ya think I should do with --------?
What if? ..Then I answer God; I say he is a ------- & -------! He is supposed to burn in hell. God then says, " as ye hath said let it be done unto you!!" And then God asks the guy behing me, What should we do with this guy over there???????????
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have a feelin' you'd all be kneeling or layin' down at His feet, not waiting for Him to ask your opinion! ha
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That was a word thang. You are right unless I didn't know "HE" was coming out side. I might be standing there waiting for a chance to sneak in if a crack big enough opens up that I can run through.
  off point! ...The point I'm making is that every judgment call that we make pointing our finger at somebody that don't want to listen..... there are three fingers pointing back at ourselves.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not every judgement call.
  
  Neither you nor anyone can properly equate living in man-woman marriage (even if a person's been divorced) with the sin of homosexual union or homosexual "marriage".
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  Ohmaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And Again this is an interpretation of the scripture based on you values.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's an interpretation based on Biblical values.
  Repentance and forgiveness can be had by anyone who wants it, if they're sorry for their sins and stop committing those sins.
  I really don't expect non-Believers to understand this.
  I do expect, at some point, for some Christian who's been divorced to perhaps give a testimony of how they've been forgiven. AND remarried! Because that's what Mark's and livelonger's beef is with me-----they want to label me an adulteress because I've been outspoken against such things as homosexuality.
  But indeed I'd understand if no one comes forward! Because livelonger and Mark are very adept at harrassing people personally instead of using generalized terms; they'd scare the crap outta most people!
  When I spoke against homosexuality, I had no idea that livelonger was gay, and I didn't speak about anyone personally. He chose to zero in on the fact that I've been divorced and am re-married and has not really stopped making me personally an example and target of his own bias/heterophobia.
  
  And Mark? ....I think he's just...upset 'cause I don't give up my Faith and become an athiest. Who knows? He never takes those sunglasses off so anyone can see his eyes. hahaha
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Some sins require death while others require cleansing outside the camp. Just clarifying.
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Divorce and remarriage is adultery:
  Matthew 5: 31-32
  Matthew 19:9
  Mark 10:11-12
  Luke 16:18
  Romans 7:2-3
  
  Adultery is punishable by death:
  Leviticus 20:10
  (endorsed in the New Testament - Matthew 5:17)
  
  (Just clarifying a bit further.)
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  Ohmaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  As it has been pointed out to you often. "God" said (according to the Bible) "no one sin is greater than another." You continually read only the selected parts of the scripture that re-enforce your position while discounting parts that a good Christian would be applying to everything they do. Most importantly in my humble opinion "Judge not lest ye be judged.
  
  And by the way I did not see Mark or Livelonger open a thread inviting other Hubbers to judge you.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Who said anyone opened such a thread?
  
  I opened this thread for the subject of divorce and re-marriage. I'm quite sure there are MANY Christians who're in that category. Maybe not on these forums right now, but the fact is that there are many.
  
  If one goes by the self-righteous judgement of people like livelonger and Mark, who only wish to squelch a person's voice 'cause they don't like boldness except for their own!, then no person who's ever been divorced and re-married except to their former spouse can be saved. Hence, no sin is able to be put under the Blood. Hence they themselves can never be saved.
  
  The Bible gives hope, not takes it away.
  
  Unless of course one believes that ALL people are saved no matter what they do. That's called universalism, and is unBiblical.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Please do not get up set with me for speaking what I believe to be a truth. especially when I am not pointing a finger at anyone. I was looking up, speaking at the sky for anyone to hear.
  I have been divorced once and widowed twice. I'm too confused to judge anyone. I understand from which you speek.
  I'm just saying......
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But I'm not confused. Maybe that's the difference.
  If you were born-again, you'd know that you were forgiven! To be forgiven is to be free! I wish you were able to have that, Jerami.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have no confusion on that issue. I am confused concerning the things that I think that I am assigned to do in the name of God?
  In my business I have learned that if I am not careful I could tear up much more that I am trying to fix.
  I am also confused concerning .......
  Sometimes when I think that I am doing a good thing... It is not a God thing. And sometimes that I think that I am doing a God thing, I am not doing a good thing.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have no confusion about that. The Gospel is clear about all these issues.
  Jerami....you don't claim to be born-again, do you?
  
  Well, anyway, I'm gonna exit.
  See ya later maybe!
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You say potato I say tater .. Born again?, full of tha Holly Ghost?, call it whatever ?
  I've got the word of God on my heart. and in my head.
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  Jane Bovaryposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Jerami,
  
  I don't blame you for being confused. It's better too be confused than to have Brenda's kind of certainty {a certainty that seems to conveniently shift when it suits I might add. Divorce is wrong...no wait it's okay after all, because I want to do it]....how could you not be?
  
  Anyone who has read the bible can see that God can be very inconsistent in His moral advice....and let's face it if we really did follow all the tenets in the Bible, we' could well end up slave-owning, child murdering, wife-stoning monsters who refuse to wear a wool and linen mix on moral grounds. I've always found reason to be a better guide...in the end it's all we've got and even the devout and God-fearing Brenda is using her own form of cherry-picking reasoning to interpret the Bible.
  
  Surely Jerami, if there is a God with any kind of moral sense he would not object to you working things out for yourself. After all, why give us reasoning if we aren't supposed to use it?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My confusion is in finding a way to express how simple understanding can be. Humanity has been being taught gross misinterpretations of scripture for so long that we can not see the message that was origionaly taught, and it is still right there hiding in plain sight.
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  Jane Bovaryposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So are you saying there is only one message and all the rest should be ignored? If so, what is that message?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am glad that you ask (he says with a smile)
  My opinion is old news for some on here.
  I think that if we are going to build a faith in God, we should begin by studying those things that it is written that Jesus,and the messenger angel Gabriel says. Establish these as the foundation on which to build a faith in God.
  This in my mind would be the logical thing to do.
  Then read those things that Jesus's disciples teach.
  If there is a contradiction in these teachings, do not discount those words of the teacher to believe those of the student.
  I believe that this is where most of the confusion comes from. If there a truth of scripture it will be an uninterpreted verson of these messages.
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  Jane Bovaryposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Jerami, I am reading "if there is a contradiction..." as "if you find a moral teaching from Jesus that contradicts your own moral sense, abandon the latter" [correct me if I've got it wrong].
  
  Well, personally I couldn't go for that. Not because I'd be absolutely certain I'm right but because to to abandon my own reasoned judgement, the best that I can possibly come up, in order to slavishly follow authority. seems neither moral nor wise.
  
  I wouldn't want to follow a God who would demand that of me.
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  TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I understood that he was saying to read the words of Jesus and Gabriel first, then read the words of the disciples. If the words of the disciples disagrees with the words of Jesus and Gabriel, refer to the words of Jesus and Gabriel OVER those of the disciples.
  
  What say you, Jerami; did I misunderstand?
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  Jane Bovaryposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Same principle applies...if you agree with the disciples why go with Jesus and Gabriel, unless it's to worship authority?
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  TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah...I get you...I just thought that you thought that he was talking about you in particular...and I thought he was talking about the disciples in particular...and when you posted I began to wonder.
  
  *sigh* I think I'm probably too tired to be in a serious discussion right now. lol
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  Jane Bovaryposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's a confusing issue!
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually I was saying that when we read something that Matthew, Mark, or Luke says that we think contradicts something that they have written that Jesus is to have said; Then we must be interpreting something wrong.
  If this issue can not be resolved, we should discount our understanding of what we think that the disciple said.
  Especially when Jesus spoke plainly and specifically.
  But, we instead accept the delusion that these things are a mystery. This supposed mystery is but the product of our interpretation of these things that needed no interpretation.
  
  I think that this system of study would be true regardless of the subject matter???????
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  Jane Bovaryposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, I see. For the sake of argument, what if you came across a saying from Jesus that did strongly contradict your own moral sense?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Off the top of my head I do not remember that happening as yet. But for the sake of arguement...If I came across one I would have to examine why I felt so strongly and study to make sure that I was understanding correctly what he said.
  
  I admitt that I got off track from his teachings a long long time ago. Sence then I've just been doing the best that I can.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Just for discusions sake; could you give an example of this from your perspective.
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  Jane Bovaryposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well there's this;
  
  If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 1426
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Mornin..Jane and all ...
  Can't find my book to reference which word(#3404) that "HATE was translated from in this case; but am pretty sure it could or should have been translates as "Loving less" than.. If they loved their parents more, that, is where they needed to stay.
  Something like that I don't know; haven't had my coffee yet.
  Many times misunderstandings are caused by translation. Others we tend to "Interpret" too much.
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  G3404
  μισέω
  miseō
  mis-eh'-o
  From a primary word μῖσος misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Good mornin SIR Dent.. thanks for the reference.
  I gotta start getting ready in a few minutes to go to work.
  
  After my coffee.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually it might be a good thing to start a thread to explore how many misunderstandings there are such as this one.
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  mythbusterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  A guess, right out of the blue, is that it will end up being a very long, involved thread!
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yea you might be correct. but what better way to prove or disprove a Myth or a truth. If it were an easy objective, it would have been done a long time ago.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Best to ignore the last 2000 years of wars over this very subject then? They did not happen.
  
  Any reasonable person would agree that 2000 years of not being able to agree what was supposedly said negates the religion completely and demonstrates a lack of truth.
  
  But - it is far, far, far more important to promote the belief than be reasonable is it not?
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  mythbusterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I sort of went in that direction several days back when I started a thread asking if people realized (on religion/beliefs topics) that there are 'schools' of thought and 'traditions' and things like that...
  
  I found out that wasn't a very good idea. I'm sure many people thought I was just being cheeky or something...but I was just hoping that people would "back up their arguments" once in a while from at least a few sources - or else just admit "this is just totally my way of thinking and interpretation on this matter..."
  
  And I've tried to ask certain people for word meanings and possible translation details on many words but others jump in and derail things...but I'll just keep asking, I guess.
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  mythbusterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I find this helpful, SirDent. Thx!
  
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you found that helpful - you should bear in mind that that is one person's "interpretation" taken from this website -
  
  http://www.fathershands.net/
  
  If you want a few more interesting interpretations - this is a good website:
  
  http://new.exchristian.net/2010/04/lies … anity.html
  
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  mythbusterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree here - I think there's still value in scriptures. However, I don't think there is anything simplistic about scriptures in the least and believe they require (at least for me) diligent study.
  
  I view much of what's in the scriptures as "mythology" and in this, believe there are still very pertinent lessons within narratives, etc.
  
  What I hope not to do too often is take a piece of text and interpret it by myself, without cross-checking other viewpoints on passages - and then claim that I have the absolute right answer to everything in the world based on, say, having read four or five verses in a chapter of, say, Leviticus lol
  
  Although...... sometimes I mess up, get bossy and say stuff like "God says Mythbuster is right and you should give Mythbuster all your money because God says Mythbuster is a choosen one of a choosen tribe of ummmm Mythbusterianites" <------- 'cos I found that in scriptures in ummm somewhere in ummmm Acts? Yes that's it - ACT now and send all your money to Mythbuster, that's what the whole Bible is about lol
  
  Then again, the last part isn't bad in any way because I TRULY BELIEVE in what I say j/k
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Me too! Where do I send the cheque!
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  mythbusterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why - to the Mythbusterianite Foundation of ummmm Religiosity Incorporated Limited, of course.
  
  lol but my wouldn't that be scary? Thx for the funny earnestshub
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
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  The Paulposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Towards the end of religulous Maher sums up with a statement to the effect of the danger religion poses to us is that billions of people suspend their own judgment, empathy, and moral sense and instead listen for a divine voice to fill the void they have created in themselves. That divine voice is silent, but there is no shortage of human voices claiming to speak for it.
  
  Here's an example.
  
  Mythbuster can't interpret the Bible alone. No fault there, the bible is inconsistent and insensible. But then he turns outward, listens to other human voices, let's them tell him what his god says.
  
  ...
  
  There'd be nothing wrong with believing in a god and even in believing we should be obedient to the god if the believers just waited around for that god to tell them what to do. But they're too impatient for that. Instead they listen to someone else, a priest, a rabbi, themselves, some wacko in Texas who says he's Jesus, whatever, and they confuse that person's desires and commands with those of their silent god.
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's exactly right. Pascal's Wager assumes that God demands unquestioning belief in him. Richard Dawkins (among others) suggested that if God did exist, maybe he would punish blind belief and reward reasoning and analysis of observation.
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  Jane Bovaryposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There's always that possibility...wishful thinking though.I guess there's nothing to say, God if he does exist, is reasonable, good or in any way concerned with our moralities..
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  TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, any God you'd want to believe in anyway, right? I agree, and well said.
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You're right. There is no way to know for certain. I hope that the patterns I observe mean something about where we're going and how we're going to get there, but that's just my gut telling me that.
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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SirDentposted 13 years ago
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Indeed.
  
  It's very tempting sometimes to just give up on unrepentant sinners and let them keep walking toward their fate.
  
  But I fear the Lord's reprisal upon those who give up their watch.....the word says we'll be held accountable.
  
  But.....
  
  how many warnings does it take? I guess that's the question too......
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The prodigal son found himself all alone in a far country. Sleeping and eating with hogs and eating the same food as the hogs. No man gave to him.
  
  Sometimes it is best to walk away and think no more of it. God will take care of things.
  
  Walk away from this thread and let it die. That is my advice to you.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I posted my post before I saw this one.
  
  You may be right, SirDent.
  
  It is tiresome defending what needs no defense! ha
  God is able to deliver me! I just keep wishing that sinners would come to know His deliverance too.....
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Some will and some won't. That's a fact you can bank on because, "It is written."
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  Ohmaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Very wise advise Sir Dent.
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Ohmaposted 13 years ago
Very Nicely said Sandra
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Ohmaposted 13 years ago
So I see that your selective interpretation applies to forum posts as well as the scriptures. At least you are consistant.
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Mark Knowlesposted 13 years ago
Gosh Brenda, I cannot believe you are really this dim. It is amazing what a desperate need to be able to point a finger at other people as being lesser than you will do to your conscious reasoning abilities. I am fairly sure the sub-conscious abilities are putting up a fight some where, and you must suffer horribly in some other way. Cognitive dissonance - look it up.

Just to clarify - I have no questions about forgiveness.

The Christian concept of forgiveness is one of those concepts that - to me - conclusively proves that your religion is hypocritical, heartless, worthless and absolutely self serving.

The concept is sold as the most noble thing to do - yet forgiveness is of benefit to one person and one person only.

The person doing the forgiving.

So - in order to vicariously forgive yourself for a perceived wrong-doing, you have invented an invisible super being to forgive you instead.

And being forgiven in this fashion makes you feel so bad, you need to attack other people as not being forgiven and going to be punished by the invisible super being.

Because there is nothing worse than being forgiven for something when you know, deep down, that you have done nothing wrong.

Several people have told you what the real issue is here - you selectively preaching. I am merely pointing out your hypocrisy. That is all. This is yet another one of those "proofs" for me that your god does not exist.

"Know less"? Oh - right. I see what you did there. Very funny. Haven't heard that one before.
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  Daniel Carterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think it's also interesting that there are two types of forgiving:
  1. "I will forgive you, you pathetic moron, because I'm better than you." Which simply means that you keep all the venom you've stored against the person, and stay as bitter and hateful as ever, which does nothing to help restore any balance or peace.
  
  2. You let it go completely because you found something in the other person that you can identify with in some way, so that you can see from their perspective, even if only to glimpse it. This is the rare form of forgiveness, but in reality, it is the only true form.
  
  Most Christians, that I'm aware of, are only familiar with the first version, which is an imitation of forgiveness so that they can hold on to their arrogance and judgment of others. I know, because I experienced and lived it for a very long time. It serves no good purpose. It only enables the person forgiving to continue in their deluded arrogance.
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  Aya Katzposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So what you're really saying is: we can't forgive people for who they are. We can only accept them.
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  Daniel Carterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not sure that's what I'm saying. Maybe it is. Forgiveness for me is very complex, and I have a hard time with it. But I did have to realize what I was doing in the process. I was using two different forms, and I saw others doing the same. I think awareness of what we are doing becomes important. If we are aware of what we are doing, it seems that we can make course corrections that might help us in whatever this journey in life is supposed to be.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  she has a glimmer of wit
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CMHypnoposted 13 years ago
Look, as far as I am concerned there is no such thing as 'sin' so nobody needs forgiveness in a religious sense.

As far as I am concerned, I do not need to be 'born again' as I am fine as I am.

We all make mistakes and we all have a personal view of what's right and wrong. These views will vary from person to person, and what's right or wrong for me might be different for someone else. There are some things we all tend to agree on, like killing people is wrong.

The concept of sin was invented by religion to control people. The idea of burning in Hell for eternity for some infringement of man-made rules, I personally find to be the most ungodly, unchristian view anyone can hold.

Brenda, as far as I am concerned you chose to leave a marriage and have a relationship with someone else. Your choice, your life - no sin, no repentance or forgiveness needed. Just enjoy and be happy
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Everyone has heard the expression...
Ya just don't know till you have walked a mile in his shoes.

Everyone can recite it but few ever truly contemplates it's meaning. There are lots to think about.
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  barryrutherfordposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ill walk a mile in someones shoes as long as their not high heels
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donotfearposted 13 years ago
.....and the drama continues.....
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luvpassionposted 13 years ago
This is why God will permit a divorce.

Does He not say through Paul in I Corinthians 7:15, "If the unbeliever departs, let him depart"? The believer "is not under bondage in such cases" because "God has called us to peace." God will permit a divorce so that a person can be saved due to the subsequent peace.

In a family in which a war rages between a husband and wife, it is possible that God may lose both of them.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL - You can make this garbage say anything you want with a little creative interpretation.
  
  Nonetheless - mine says nothing of the sort.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What "Bible" do you use, Mark?
  
  Just asking.
  
  Carry on.
  
  This is turning out to be a very interesting topic.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The Authorised King James. Interesting? Yes I find it extremely interesting that an unrepentant sinner (a woman at that) feels capable of preaching the Word of God whilst going against it.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your intelligence is clouded by your bias, Mark.
  Keep on-subject please.
  This is about something bigger than you dare to contemplate just yet.
  You might want to refer to the history of Saul/Paul in the Bible. He was...what?? a murderer....formerly. And David was also. And so were some others.
  Just a little hint there for you.
  Ask yourself what sins are too big to get forgiveness for, and you might be on your way to learning a few things.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Deary me.
  You are an unrepentant sinner Brenda. And as a woman - have no rights to divorce. But - I see you compare yourself to David now.
  
  Interesting. Preacher woman. My Grandparents left the Protestant Church when they started allowing women to preach because it goes against the Word of God.
  
  You might want to look into your heart and see where this hypocrisy really comes from Brenda. I see no repentance here.
  
  Sad. A Shame.
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Everything except homosexuality right? You aren't by chance related or affiliated with these folks are you?
  
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  hmm..
  Sandra, you were the one who started that thread called "Posting Scripture". I really enjoyed it for a while, until I saw some other threads you started where you said you actually "hate" someone. Plus, you left out many Scriptures in the Scriptures thread. From this post you posted above, I see why now. I had assumed you were a Christian, but I guess not now.
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  mythbusterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Whoops, I thought this thread was about Mark Knowless - not trashing something Sandra did in another thread.
  
  Brenda, how are you going to help Mr. Know-less if you keep going off topic?
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You'r right. I am not like you and I am not a Christian like you. I am so relieved that you noticed.
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  luvpassionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It was not my intention to disquiet you. Only my interpretation of a biblical scripture.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Is laughing disquieted? I am laughing at you - I am not disquieted in any way shape or form. Merely pointing out that you can make this garbage say anything you like.
  
  Was I not clear? Sorry.
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  luvpassionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I see...what I meant was I meant no disrespect as you are obviously older then I. If laughter of what I said lightens your heart...feel free.
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Greek Oneposted 13 years ago
As a Christian, some of my favorite parts of the Bible, and the parts I refer to when hearing about the moral sins of others, what when discussing what we can and can not forgive...

1) “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone"

2) "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

3) "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, `Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  One little question here---
  Who are a Christian's "brothers"?
  This thread is kinda about an unbeliever's view of how forgiveness works, as compared to the Believer's assurance of forgiveness.
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  Greek Oneposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  well, if I am not to judge my brother, I shouldn't judge anyone
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skyfireposted 13 years ago
Says Who ?

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Brenda Durhamposted 13 years ago
Mark,
there's an old 1997 movie called "The Apostle". It's probably only on VHS tape, I dunno.
But if you get a chance, it would be a good one to watch.
It's got Robert Duvall and Farrah Fawcett starring in it.
The "apostle"'s wife has an affair with a man, whom the apostle later severely injures in a fight. I don't remember if the guy dies or not.... Anyway, to make a long story short, the "apostle" never gives up his Faith, even after he's sent to prison, and on the chain gang is shown praising God.

I recommend it because it illustrates that thing you're so curious about------how people can have Faith in God even after they've committed sins of major proportions. It doesn't, however, answer you question of WOMEN "preachers", but hey maybe your understanding will evolve with each new revelation.....
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  luvpassionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda Mr. Knowles doesn't really seem that interested in anything religion related...or I could be wrong.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Then you've missed him in thread after thread talking or responding to religious posts. Hide and watch. ha
  He's hugely interested, and has questioned me time after time about my Faith and about the issue of women preachers, etc.
  
  P.S. Hope you're enjoying the forums so far?!
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  luvpassionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you...I am. I haven't been coming to them long so perhaps I have missed many of his views on religion.
  
  I have noticed his peculiar focus on you though. Perhaps you are a source in his search for truth which I belive one should peruse every source to advantage.
  
  Teri
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  Obscure Divineposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It sounds like you're pretty interested yourself, or else you wouldn't mention your "hide & watch" method that you use upon Mr. Mark Knowledge.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It was just a figure of speech. She doesn't have to "hide and watch" anything. Teri knows that I'm sure. It's just that she's fairly new here to the forums.
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  Obscure Divineposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, okay, I see... You were just providing your tutelage upon thee. That was interesting advice ya gave her, hmm...... LOL!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda - I am shocked that you seem to be here solely to push your pro-divorce and adultery agenda.
  
  Now I see you get your biblical authority from second rate Hollywood movies, I understand a little better I think.
  
  I am curious about no such thing. Seriously - I understand your agenda now though so thank you for being clear.
  
  Do you want every American to be living in sin the same as you?
  
  Will that make you feel better? Should everyone get a divorce? Is that what you want?
  
  Shocking. My Grandmother (RIP) would have spit in your face if you had had the temerity to call yourself a Christian in front of her.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Now we get back to the nitty-gritty.
  And I'll answer you again.
  No, I'm not pushing any pro-divorce nor adultery agenda.
  Matter of fact, I've stated on these forums that I think there should be stricter laws about divorce and adultery.
  
  What form of punishment should I be given, Mark?
  Should I be put in jail for my past?
  Should ALL "sinners", then, even forgiven ones like me, be put behind bars?
  Tell me what you think. I'm curious.
  
  By the way, you mentioned your grandmother. IF she was a Christian and you think she was very Godly, WHY are you not following her legacy of Faith?
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You think homosexuals should go to hell so...
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I've never said that and I don't believe anyone should go to hell. There's a Way outta goin' to hell, and that's what I promote.
  Make sure you're speaking the truth please before you speak.
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You're fixated on "helping" gays avoid going to hell (to become heterosexual, by insulting them constantly here on Hubpages) but you oddly avoid the matter of remarried people going to hell, saying that you've repented in a way that makes God ignore your ongoing sin, and in a way that gay people can not.
  
  Right?
  
  Your issue should not be with us. It should be with your lack of compliance with "the Word."
  
  We have a problem with you being a rude hypocrite.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Jason,
  your lack of understanding the simplest things constantly amazes me!
  
  I've asked you before to explain to me just HOW you think I can make everything "right" concerning my divorce and re-marriage.
  Was it you who said I should go back to my first husband?
  So....IF I were to do that, how does that keep me from hurting my current husband? How does it keep me from committing the sin of "putting him away" when he desires to stay with me?
  You think my current marriage isn't a legal or Godly marriage, correct? So.....I must leave my man and stay celibate all my life unless I go persuade my first husband (who, incidentally and as I've said before, cheated on me) to re-marry me?
  
  Not that I'd do that because of anything you say! LOL
  Because your intent is only to deflect from the fact that the Bible says homosexuality is unnatural and a sin against both one's self and against Him.
  
  You don't want to even ponder the notion that YOU and any other homosexual CAN get forgiveness from God if you turn from your ways.
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Guess you shouldn't have sinned in the first place so you wouldn't be in the mess you are in.
  
  What a tangled web you have weaved. If your husband cared about where you will end up, according to your scriptural views that is, then why wouldn't he let you go back to your ex so that you don't end up in Hell. After all, there is not way out of it. That is what you promote! Lol.
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda,
  
  My opinion is immaterial to you, as a fundamentalist Christian. Why are you trying to reason with me?
  
  You follow "the Word", correct? The Word is very, very, very clear about what it considers sin and what it considers unrepentant sin. Even I, as a non-Christian, can read English well enough to see a consistent message.
  
  SO...if you have a fundamentalist approach to Christianity (that would be you), where the only hope for gay people is to transform into heterosexuals, then YOU, as a divorcee who has remarried, must go back to your first husband!
  
  If you want to exempt yourself from the Word, then go ahead and do so. I don't care. But if you're right about Christianity, then I assume you will have a lot to answer for when it comes to the time of Judgment.
  
  The Bible (New Testament) says far, far less about homosexuality than it does about divorce, which it is far more consistent and explicit about...in the New Testament. Isn't that right?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  She made your wishy washy anti gay tirades look like the joke they are.
  
  And she certainly would have had no truck with a divorced woman preacher. You would have crossed the street to avoid meeting her in public because she would have shamed you where you stood - calling yourself a Christian and sleeping with a man who is not your husband. I can almost hear her tutting now.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That doesn't answer the question I asked.
  
  And one Christian is never ashamed of meeting another Christian. Was she a Quaker or something? Or Mennonite? I hear Mennonites disown any of their young women who have sex outside of marriage.....or at least punish them by ostracizing them. Very strict they are. I cannot even imagine what they'd do with a homosexual-advocacy issue.....
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  luvpassionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  By the way, you mentioned your grandmother. IF she was a Christian and you think she was very Godly, WHY are you not following her legacy of Faith?
  
  Not meaning to be nosey Mr. Knowles...out of curiousity what is your answer to this...feel free to say "None of your Beeswax"
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But you are being nosey.
  
  God? What a load of cobblers. Laughable that people believe this nonsense. LOL You can only truly hate something if you know it well.
  
  A divorced adulteress preaching would have sent my Grandmother into a righteous rage.
  
  My Grandfather showed me the true meaning of "church".
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh no Brenda. As usual you are ignoring the fact that you cannot call yourself a Christian. My Grandmother was a genuine christian and would be disgusted to hear you proudly proclaiming to be a christian yet at the same time living in sin. Adulteresses do not get forgiven. Especially when you are living in sin and preaching.
  
  You would have disgusted her beyond words and would not have dared speak to her. She was a real christian with morals and would never have accepted your pro adultery agenda.
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Originposted 13 years ago
** GIVES ROOM A GIANT GROUP HUG **

I think it's group hug time. Nuh.. nuh..
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  luvpassionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree Origin... Even I have become distracted from the original topic somehow.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Mark Knowles said .... My Grandfather showed me the true meaning of "church".

Mine too. I've had my share of that more than ya might think too.
There is truth everywhere.... Too bad non of theem seems to be able to get along. (Insert hilbilly accent)
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  (dripping with accent)
  I wasn't talking about people when I said they cain't get along, was talking about the truths that are everywhere.
  That's why we caint get along about what the truths is;
  is because it caint agree either.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well - you obviously disagree but - I think there are no Truths. I also think that a belief in God causes many of these altercations. I speak for only myself. I do not try and glean truths from a book like you do.
  
  There is no god. And that is the Truth. The very second you tell me otherwise and then tel me the rules you understand - then we clash.
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  TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "There is no god" cannot be a Truth, if it is true that "There are no truths."
  
  There does not have to be a "God" in order for "good" to exist. Do you believe in "good"?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't even understand what that means. But - I would say "good" is a matter of perspective and is not absolute. Is it "good" to hang a man by the neck until he is dead?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "SURE"
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you there. What's considered "the truth" and "good" are constantly changing. 100 years ago, it was considered "good" to beat your wife if she "got out of line."
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  TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Do you think that there may be a difference between what "people commonly think is good" and what "good actually is"? If it exists.
  
  Back when it was commonly accepted to beat one's wife, do you think there was anyone at all who was uncomfortable with it? Were there people who were NOT wife-beaters on the grounds that they thought it was good to live that way?
  
  Does that mean it was only good for them? Or that others were not recognizing what is good?
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That is a really good question. I look back at what was commonly considered good a long time ago, and it completely boggles my mind. Burning "witches," turning in Jews to the Nazis, beating your wife, killing people indiscriminately, etc. I'm not sure much of that was considered "good" but it was clearly considered acceptable.
  
  Then it makes me wonder what we do today that will make people in a few hundred years shudder. These are probably things that we are a bit uncomfortable with now, but we tolerate because we think it's for the greater good. The death penalty comes to mind, personally.
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  TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think so. Do you? I have never done it. I know it has been done. It seems excessive, to me, in response to most anything. If you're thinking of capital punishment, from what I understand, it doesn't deter anyone from anything except the person capitally punished.
  
  Wasn't Kant's definition of "good" something along the lines of (pardon terrible paraphrasing/writing) "something you'd be all right with if everyone ran around doing it to/near you?" What do you think of that definition? The golden rule?
  
  Is there a higher good in which we all participate? Is it possible to "do something good" for someone else? Or "bad" to someone else?
  
  Or are there only "more profitable" and "less profitable" behaviors at the moment?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No - I have never done it that way. Not really sure what you are asking though. "Good"? I like music - I think it is "good."
  
  But - not when my next door neighbors kids are playing their crap-awful rap music outside my window....
  
  A higher good? No - I don't think so. Selfless good? Maybe. The Universe I connect with does not recognize good or bad. It just is. It doesn't care if child murderers get what is coming to them. Nor does it see anything wrong with child murder. Seeing as so many die anyway. What difference does it make if they are murdered or die of starvation or disease?
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  TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, Mark...that's a pretty long view of things.
  
  Hmmm...Perhaps disease lacks intent? This is thoughtful stuff.
  
  What would you say is "selfless good" since you called it a "maybe"?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Because I recognise the ability of people to do "good" without apparent reward. Selfless.
  
  But - does that have any value in and of itself? In the great scheme? In the context of 2 million dead kids - what value the one saved?
  
  I don't know. I do not claim to have an answer - but - I am pretty sure no one else does either.........
  
  What really bothers me is the aggressive claims of an answer. The Truth.
  
  The truth will set you free.......................
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  TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No. I don't have the answer, either...I'm not trying to push anything on you, Mark...I'm just genuinely curious about what you think and what comes of...just questions. I have FAR more questions than I have answers.
  
  If we can (and I agree with you, we can) "recognize the ability of people to do 'good' without apparent reward," can we not then derive from our recognition a definition of something that is good?
  
  Perhaps in the scheme of the whole universe it is meaningless. Nonetheless, I think we can agree that we all have a life and a world that we share here. In this part of the universe, amongst ourselves...can we define a "good"?
  
  ETA: Thank you for the link.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well - "good" as I see it. But my good is not necessarily the same good as some one else And as LL pointed out - not so long ago - good was beating your wife when she stepped out of line and not whipping your slave to death, unless he ran away. .
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  TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What happens when "your good" is opposed to "his good" or "my good" whose "good" shall we go with? And who should get to decide?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Then we are back to righteousness. My stick is bigger than yours. Therefore my god is better than yours.
  
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh yeah! I would like to see your God pull this off. All you god has is a hammer. lol
  
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  TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't think you believed in any god or gods at all, Mark??
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Is it possible that both you and Mark could easily come to agreement on what is good and what is not? As long as you don't involve a god in your decision making process, there should be little difference between you.
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  Obscure Divineposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, da-da truth must equal a damn chaotic infinity, ya think? Even them damned tiny insects known as "army ants" can't get along, either. Fun-fun, ain't it though......
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There aint no ants where my grand pa toke me a fishin!
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  Obscure Divineposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So, you ignore your surroundings; ants are everywhere!
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "SURE" ... My grandpa told me once that If I am can't or don't do something to fix what ever is broken, Then there isn't any reason to worry about it?????? Unless ya JUST
  want to ....take your mind off of "fun stuff" !
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TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years ago
"Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one"
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tobey100posted 13 years ago
I forgive all of ya. Now, let's dance!!!!!

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Justine76posted 13 years ago
I will regret this, but I still havent seen the part where you are forgiven when continuing to sin, according to the Bible.

This is a real question I have, not meant to cause fights, so probably I shouldn't even be in here. Im can't find the link, but Im pretty sure I was the first perosn to bring up the whole divorce thing in the first palce, and so far its not been answered.

Who decides wich sins are forgivable, and not, and how is this decided?
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frogdroppingposted 13 years ago
And I still don't get the point of this thread. Is it divorce/forgiveness/adultery with a religious or non religious perspective? Any/all of the above is good/bad/neither?

Or is it that Mark needs a lesson in forgiveness?
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Prolly the latter. There is no point to this thread. Brenda cannot reconcile the fact that according to what she believes, she is a sinner and has not repented and wont because she somehow believes that whatever she said to God was good enough but whatever a homosexual says is not good enough because even though god hates adulterers and homosexuals (according to her) there is no possible way that a homosexual who doesn't become a heterosexual will be forgiven no matter what excuse they give.
  
  SO Brenda here believes that she is better than everyone else so even though she is continuing to sin god will forgive her but no the homosexuals.
  
  How stupid is that!
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  frogdroppingposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Ohhhhhhkaaaaaay. Thankyou Sandra. I couldn't figure it out. Now I'm wondering why Mark needs such a lesson?
  
  Homosexuals are sinners too? The other day a close friend text my daughter (he was picking her up) and his text read:
  
  'I'm picking you up after school. 4:45pm. Look out for me. By the way, it's Kieron the homo, not Kieran your brother'
  
  I'm a bad mother I suppose. Letting my daughter hang with homo's
  
  And so, the topic. How is adultery more square with God than someone born homosexual?
  
  Weren't we created in his image or some such?
  
  I'm quite sure God, or any Gods, really doesn't mind what your sexual orientation is. I doubt he's into Equal Opps. I think we invented that one.
  
  I'd think sexually engaging with someone other than your partner (to whom you've presumably promised your loyalty) to be a bit higher on the sinner scale.
  
  Or maybe I'm just being pragmatic?
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  lol, I am positive you had already figured it out I just felt like pointing it out again and again and again just to be a bother.
  
  The only reason I would have anything to say about homosexuals is when I don't know and they are attracted to me. My experience is because I was in a bar one night totally hanging out with a chick I thought was straight. It didn't cross my mind to ask if she was gay.
  
  So there we are all buddy, buddy like. And I kiss my girlfriends on the cheeks and give them hugs but I am a girl and affectionate that way but certainly I wouldn't do that with guys because I am in a committed relationship.
  
  So the next day when I found out she was gay, my partner wasn't exactly thrilled because in his eyes, (mine as well) it is the same as if she would have been a man.
  
  So if someone is gay they shouldn't have to hide it because I think it does more harm then good.
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I would imagine homos are safer around your daughter than straight boys are. Right?
  
  The sticking point for the fundamentalists is they don't want to believe that being gay is inborn. They want to believe it's a choice, because then it's a choice that you can condemn. They invent lots of "research" that suggests homosexuality is a choice, and they point to handfuls of "ex-gays" who chose heterosexuality after finding Christ. (Strangely, there's an exceedingly high rate of recidivism...)
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  frogdroppingposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Your first sentence is a very realistic observation
  
  As for the rest of your post ... a bloody crying shame that such a way of life is so argued over. You're born the way you're born.
  
  Heterosexuality is (I suppose) the intended natural orientation. Homosexual folks simply don't have much of a choice.
  
  Much the same as I'd have liked to have been petite. I'm not. But neither can I do a damn thing about the fact that I'm 5'5".
  
  A gay man or woman cannot 'turn' into something they're not. I'd agree that they can be coerced, cajoled or bullied into a pretense of something that they weren't meant to be.
  
  But not on your nelly can a gay anyone suddenly decide to switch sides. And in support of my opinion, tomorrow I'm going to go gay. What's good for the homos is good for the heteros.
  
  Oh and it's a bloody good job that those born mentally or physically disabled haven't been tagged with a similar label.
  I mean - if homosexual folks choose to be gay, by my reckoning, a blind woman I know made the choice to spend her life being led by a dog and tapping a stick.
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You're right about all of this.
  
  I think some older conservative people see, suddenly, people coming out and saying they're gay, when maybe when they were younger, they never saw openly gay people. So to go from 0% to 4% (or whatever) it makes them think they're choosing homosexuality. They can not grasp that these people were always gay, but that they were just hiding it before because of the enormous social pressure against gay people.
  
  This is why, generally, younger people can understand all of this. They were exposed to the existence of gay people since they were young, so it doesn't freak them out. They see people coming out much younger, so they're more well-adjusted and not working through the torment of having denied their identity for decades.
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  mythbusterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well said, livelonger! It's not about what's right or wrong, it's about who can oppress another group "just because" it can be done... For some, "Christianity" and "Christian Principles" appear like the "authority" which allows for (no - demands of its followers) this oppression. (Leaving the individual possibly guilt-free in all these accusations and as perpetrator of oppression).
  
  In fact, reference to homosexuality occurs in Scriptures very few times as compared to the number of times people generalize about how often Scripture texts say homosexuality is wrong.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And I do find it soooo funny that a divorced woman preacher is the one pointing the finger.
  
  Go back just a few years and a divorced woman preacher would have been thrown out of her community.
  
  Seriously - my grandma would have spit in her face back in 1940.
  
  And my great-grandma would have done everyone a favor and quietly strangled her in a field somewhere and saved the community the trouble of dealing with an abomination that went against the Lord, corrupting the younger generation with her pro-adultery agenda.
  
  Imagine explaining to The Bishop what a divorced woman was doing, going around the parish preaching....... Satanic no less.
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, that is it exactly.
  
  When Scripture fails her, then she just resorts to saying homosexuality is "disgusting" and "perverted."
  
  It depends on the day which approach she prefers.
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  frogdroppingposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  I rarely become offended. Were I gay - that kind of attitude would certainly offend me? Disgusting and perverted? How judgemental. Am I right in thinking that religion teaches individuals that their's is not to judge? Isn't that God's job or some such?
  
  When I'm gay (tomorrow) I shall be sure to return, offended and aggrieved that I've become disgusting and perverted. Really - I need time to adjust to my new sexual orientation, before any cat calling starts.
  
  Is there no human kindness left in this barren world? Woe is me, etc etc.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well I'll tell ya one thing... since I hate brochli and watching "Who wants to be a Millionair" we are not going to have any of that in heaven! You Guys go someplace else. Got it.
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  frogdroppingposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  I guess your accent wasn't a choice. Poor you. I guess you'll be next on the sh!t list
  
  But don't worry - I'll keep a corner of hell nicely roasting for you. Come ... sit by the fire
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "SURE" I'll bring marshmellows and hotdogs.
  or am I goina have ta have brochli?
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  TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL sounds cozy.
  
  @ Jerami: Don't worry...I'll take the brochli and share my marshmallows, okay?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I was trying to be cute and also make a point earlier.
  Guess my point wasn't so sharp.
  
  Thanks for the brochly thing.
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  TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have no idea what this thread is actually about. Whoops.
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TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years ago
I'm not talking about a god or God at all. I said earlier that one does not have to believe in god in order to believe in Good.

The existence of Good is not contingent upon the existence of God. Either or both could exist or not. One could exist without the other. I am speaking solely of what, if anything, we can define as good.

I'm not even trying to argue any point about Good...I'm simply asking Mark his opinion on these matters and thinking about them.

ETA: In response to Mark's saying he believed that truth is not absolute.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you're both content to share some time bowling or playing bingo and having a beer, rather than beat each other over the heads with mallets, Bob's your uncle.
  
  Of course truth isn't absolute, it's relative, just like most other things in life, so why bother spending your time trying to define some truth when you're missing out on life?
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  BDazzlerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Obviously, you've never met some of my relatives.
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  JulesGeromeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL!
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Lol!
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TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years ago
" @ Beezledad: "rather than beat each other over the heads with mallets"

I'm not sure what you mean? Seriously...if you're reading some kind of sarcasm or anger into my posts, it's not coming from me. I am genuinely curious...not backing some religious agenda or trying to prove some point. I'm just asking open questions.

What is the best thing to do when what you perceive as good clashes with what I perceive as good?
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  JulesGeromeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Something bad !
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not at all.
  
  Such as what? Give me some examples.
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  TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, it wouldn't have to be limited to you and I...we see examples of this all time. Right here in the forum, whenever two people disagree.
  
  What if I think it's "good" to come over to your house, bust you in the head, and take your stuff? I would assume that you think that's not such a good idea.
  
  If "good" is relative, whose good should we go with?
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Is this the type of thing you think is good and you do on a regular basis?
  
  Like I said before, we can all work out what we all know to be good. There should be little difference amongst humans.
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  TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL...Of course not. I do not, because I do not think it is good. However, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that there are people in the world who think it's a fine idea to do exactly that. If good is relative, then in such a case, again, WHOSE good do we go with? The potential robber/beater's good, or the person's who thinks it's wrong to do such a thing?
  
  And you have already answered. There is "good," and we ARE capable of knowing what it is.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wonderful! I do think you and Mark can then come to agreement as I've not read anything from Mark that would indicate he would do something like that either.
  
  Are you sure about that? Or, are those people forced to do those things for other reasons; poverty, drug addiction, etc.? Do you honestly believe there are so many of those people in the world who really wish to do harm to others? I'll bet a fiver if we sat down with many of those people, we'd find they were not so different from us.
  
  Our societies have been run by god fearing believers for many centuries, to the point where their absolute god given morals and ethics pervade all of society and the way society thinks and functions.
  
  The potential robber/beater was raised in this society of absolutes undermining the very fabric of his humanity.
  
  We all know what good is, we have known what good is for as long as we've been social animals. We wouldn't be here if we didn't know.
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  TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  People have more in common than they have differences, this is certainly true; however, a person’s ability to DO the good is not the question here; perhaps we all ought to be more aware that the people who do what we consider “good” or “bad” are, as you point out, quite like ourselves; I am not suggesting that people who do “bad” are different.
  
  It is also true, quite obviously and unfortunately, that there are people whose actions are influenced by extenuating circumstances, as you suggest. I cannot argue that society shapes people or that religious thought has shaped society.
  
  However, do YOU honestly believe that there are people who are not, for example, impoverished or drug addicts, but who are doing things that we might consider “bad?” Are there not rich people with no drug problems to speak of stealing other people’s pensions, or invading other people’s countries, or whatnot? Just look at the history of people in charge of religious institutions; do you think they were forced by society burn so-called “witches,” or begin the Inquisition, or invade other countries, or were they just furthering their own desires and calling it “good” erroneously? As The Paul mentioned before – some people do stuff NOT because they think it’s good, but simply because they want to or it’s convenient.
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Randy Godwinposted 13 years ago
Hmmm...female adulteress preacher acting holier than thou, or satan in disguise, hoping to make sinners detest Christianity even more.

Witch is it?
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There have been some people who have suggested that Brenda is a "deep-cover liberal" trying to discredit Christianity in the eyes of normal people. The same is said about Fred Phelps.
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The Paulposted 13 years ago
I don't think most of those things once considered acceptable but now considered terrible were done for the greater good. I think they were done because people wanted to do them or because they were convenient.

I'm sure most men openly admitted to beating their wives in decades past didn't do it because they believed it was necessary for a good and lawful society, they did it because they were angry or they wanted to get their way and their society hadn't really invested them with any real disinclination from that violence. They probably justified themselves after the fact by saying that a woman has to obey a man, it's the natural order of things, and it has to be maintained, but that's not actually why they did it.

Similarly, advocates of the death penalty often justify themselves by saying its a deterrent and claiming its necessary for a just and orderly society. But we know full well this isn't the case, it is obviously not the case, and it's extremely unlikely it's their real motivation. They have an emotional motivation to take vengeance on wrongdoers. It's not because society needs to kill its worst criminals, it's because they want to.
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wordscribe41posted 13 years ago
Froggie, 5'5" isn't petite??? At almost 5'11" I'm an Amazon then.

Why is it that when Brenda's around the topic of homosexuality always surfaces? It sickens me that anyone could be a proponent of the "choice" factor in this day and age. You're right, the recidivism rate for those who attempt to be hetero is astounding, not to mention the mental anguish they suffer attempting to fit into the mold.

I agree, I'm going gay. That's it, I've made up my mind. And, no doubt my son who's going blind in one eye will choose to regain his sight. I will keep you posted on our progress!
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, she brings it up all the time. It's her favorite thing to attack, but not the only thing (she attacks liberals, Obama, atheists, etc - all those things that Dominionists get worked up over). But she's always attacking.
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  wordscribe41posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm hoping the "deep cover liberal" theory is correct.
  
  You're right, the people in the world haven't changed and suddenly become gay, they've just now gotten the gumption to come out of the closet. Funny though, my mom has no problem with it at all, she's in her 70's. But, she's not Christian, she's agnostic... She doesn't believe there is such a thing as the man made concept of "sin". Interesting to note the difference, I'm just sayin'. Then again she's a liberal, Obama supporting woman living in the Bible Belt. Has only one Democrat as a friend. Okay, I went off on a tangent, but some people are just wired to be judgmental, that's my point.
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, my parents are very accepting but my dad is completely areligious, my mom a non-practicing Catholic, and both are liberal. (Not always! Both were Republicans until the party started meddling in people's personal lives, curtailing personal liberties, and starting wars for no reason.)
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
I wonder where Brenda is?
She started this to trash Mark, and got well trashed herself! Maybe she doesn't like it?
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Norah Caseyposted 13 years ago
This thread is being closed, as it was created as a personal attack on another hubber.
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A thread for Mark Knowless, who wants to know about forgiveness.......

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A thread for Mark Knowless, who wants to know about forgiveness.......

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