Who tempted Satan?

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   Randy Godwinposted 14 years ago

   We are always hearing about Satan tempting people to do bad things against god's wishes, but according to biblical scholars, he was once god's favorite.
   
   So, the question is: Who, or what tempted Satan to go bad?  There had to be evil present for him to fall from god's graces.  No temptation, no sin! Unless there was another god around to cause such a big change in the hierarchy, god himself had to be the culprit, right?
   
   Now is the time for all of you enlightened believers to show that you know what you are talking about!  You might have to pray on this one!

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      Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Well  I'll take a go at it. 
      Lets go with the way that the story goes.  God created Man.
      
      Imagine if you invented something and created it to have free will.
      
        You would , when you thought that you were finished, take it off of the workshop table, wind it up (if it winds up?) set it on the floor and see if it does what it was designed to do.
      
        Unless it goes against your will,  You will not know if you have succeeded in your quest for creating something with free will.    Now would you?
      
         So ?  That part of the story about Satan tempting Eve to do something against Gods will wasn't so, because by going against his will, following Satan's will; was following Gods will after all.
      
        There ...   did that answer your question?

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         Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         No it didn't Jerami!  It stands to reason if Lucifer was god's favorite it was because he was a good angel.  What or who, tempted him to become the blame for all of the evil in the world? 
         
         There was no Satan to tempt him!  Obviously, there had to be temptation coming from somewhere else.  So was there was evil in existence already before the world was created?  If not, why did Lucifer go bad?

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            Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I hope you're going to write a good hub about this

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      stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Ego.  Satan was so handsome.  He wanted to be as God. 
      It's that durn ole free will thing again.  God didn't create a bunch of puppets.  Wouldn't life be so boring if we were just a bunch of puppets?  No thoughts or feelings of our own?
      
      Hi Jerami!  Hope things are going well.

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         Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         nice to see you again stilljustwonderin Great answer! Satan also allowed pride, jealousy and self-exaltation to arise.

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            Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Who tempted him to be evil, WOC?  Easy question to understand!

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               Stevennix2001posted 14 years agoin reply to this

               maybe he was born that way.  Or perhaps he got so used to god praising him along with the other angels, it gradually fed into his ego.

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               Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               No one tempted him. Lucifer tempted himself by wanting to be worshipped like God and wanted to be God.

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                  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Without temptation there is no sin, WOC!  You mean you have been blaming Satan for temptation when he was tempted himself?

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                     Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     I will repeat once, Satan tempted himself. I encourage you to read and comprehend my statement above. Temptation is not sin.

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                        Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        I thought your book stated : if one thinks about doing something wrong that in itself is a sin!  Where do you find that Satan tempted himself WOC?  Chapter and verse will do fine this time!

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                        stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Your right.  Temptation is not a sin.  Jesus faced temptation.  Sin enters when the temptation is acted upon.

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                           Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           So, who does the tempting?

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                              Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              ________________________
                              They closed the forum thread before I had a chance to answer you. And because I didn't want you to have my email..and I detest hunting and killing animals. I thought I would post my reply here. You can delete it of course.
                              
                              I said there is no contradictions in the Jewish scripture. The old testament is not the Torah., It is an incorrect rendition of the Torah.
                              
                              In Jewish Mysticism, the Tarot represents the 22 paths on the Tree of Life. The emanations from God into creation.
                              
                              You somehow see them as being wrong..does that mean you have some Christian doctrine in you?
                              
                              And numerology or Gematria is a part of the Hebrew language. At one time they didn't have numbers and counted with the Alphabet. Gematria is part of the codes in the Torah and Prophets.
                              
                              You can't insult me here.
                              
                              Thank you for saying Jewish Mysticism seems right up my alley. It is very holy and sacred..quite a compliment.
                              
                              When you can't come up with real information/facts, you resort to a condescending attitude. Not mature Randal

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                                 Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 Deborah Sexton
                                 
                                 When Christianity rules and leads 1/3 of the world, and Satan runs around the planet as the greatest ill responsive imaginary creature possessing soul in human history.
                                 
                                 You wonder why, is that a condescending question?

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                                    Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    ____________________________
                                    What? Please speak in normal terms

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                                       Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       Deborah
                                       
                                       Heaven and Hell in Jewish tradition, is there an official Jewish conception of the afterlife, do you have sources that have images of a torturous hell and heavenly paradise. Judaism offers a range of views on the afterlife, what’s your?
                                       
                                       If I don’t know your concept of Satan, how can you answer for Christianity views of Satan and their experiences
                                       
                                       I choose happiness, I can just get rid of very negative people rather than suffer.
                                       
                                       Why can’t an all loving God get rid of most negative and most suffering thing on earth, ever in human history, namely Satan?

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                                          Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          Creation:sport of the gods!

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                                          Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          _________
                                          Where did I make a comment about Satan or an afterlife? Nowhere.
                                          I posted something to Randy Godwin..not to you

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                                       Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       You don't want to share?
                                       
                                       Digging deepest into the darkness can sling shot one into the light

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                                 Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 I didn't know the thread was closed as I never checked back, Debbie.  And I am not a troll, nor would I say anything to you in private I would not dare to say on a public forum.  But I do understand about the email thing.
                                 
                                 Although I am not a fan of your beliefs, I am not completely unaware of some facets of it.  I look at it no differently than the other faiths, which their own particular quirks and oddities.
                                 
                                 Tarot and numerology are much the same to me as an Ouija board or an 8 ball.  Toys for the superstitious.
                                 
                                 Saying you like to play with toys is indeed no insult to you because you like to play with your toys!  Your toys give you self importance and that's no problem for me.
                                 
                                 And I was unaware someone asked me to come up with information or facts with me failing to respond!  Surely not my intention or normal routine.
                                 
                                 Condescending?  Coming from you of all people, that is rich!
                                 
                                 Was I wrong about the "what color are you thing" or was that someone else?

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                                    Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    _______
                                    I am very direct with people, but that is not condescending. Name calling and unrelated/ uncalled for insults are .
                                    OK I'm gone now on this topic

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                                       Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       Who did I call a name, Debbie?  And I am also very direct with people.  But I suppose when I am very direct it is condescending, but for you it's okay.  Insults are in the eyes of the beholder.  I am insulted that you would expect me to believe some of the strange beliefs you have mentioned.  But so long to you and thanks for not responding to the color question, again!

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                           Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           Jesus said when someone looks lustfully at a woman, they are already committing adultery.  So, what part of being attracted to someone is temptation, and which part is sin?   was jesus asexual?

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                     mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     It was not temptation that got him kicked out of Heaven

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            stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Thank you.  Your right.  He is so prideful , and jealous of God.  He wanted to exalt himself above God.   So now he is down here like a  child who didn't get his way.  Having a temper fit, kicking up the dust to keep others from finding God. 
            The dust will clear some day, all ALL shall see.

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               Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               But temptation and evil is blamed on Satan!  If evil was already in existence why does Satan get blamed for it now?  Come on people, it is a simple question!  I hear on these threads that Satan is tempting the sinners to do evil.  So where did his temptation originate?
               
               If temptation was already here, isn't it wrong to lay it all on Satan?  And I've never heard the angels had free will!  If god created everything then he is responsible for the evil too!  Even long before he needed to use it to tempt man it seems.
               
               And unless Satan was a god himself, he would know he could not challenge god with any chance of success.  Not likely!

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                  stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Lucifer was the first whose pride and ego exhaulted himself as God.  He wanted to be as God.  Every living thing has a free will.  Animals have a free will.  There are 2 choices.  Free will, or puppets.
                  
                  "If god created everything then he is responsible for the evil too"
                  With that understanding, the 2 sons which I have, who are now 31 and 33 years old?  If they do something evil, then I am responsible?  Do you have grown children?  Do they have free will, or are they your puppets?
                  
                  The defination of Satan is accuser, opposer.  It is here upon this earth.

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                     Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Where did you find out Satan was once a living being?  Was he the first man instead of Adam?

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                        mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        No, he was not a man. He was considered as an anointed cherub

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                     Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     stilljustwonderin, AMEN!

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                     ThomasEposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     I am not perfect, or all powerful. If I have a son who commits a terrible sin, and I have done everything I could to raise my son correctly, then I am not at fault.
                     
                     God is all knowing, and all powerful.
                     
                     If he created Satan, he must have known that Satan would fail, and would fall from grace.
                     
                     This is axiomatic: god is all powerful and all knowing.
                     
                     I think the only conclusion is that both Satan and Human sinners actually act to fulfill gods plan.

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                        Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        If the ending is already known, free will is moot!  Why go through the ordeal to begin with?  No matter how many times it is repeated, the end result is always known.  If not, the prophecies in the bible are not going to be accurate!

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                           ThomasEposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           Obviously free will is moot: for God to be God, free will can't exist. If God has the power to over rule everything you choose to do, and if he creates you, and if he knows everything, then your actions must be by his choice.
                           
                           When Satan fell, God must have known that this would happen, and he chose to allow it.
                           
                           Equally, when Man fell, God must have known that this would happen, and he chose to allow it.
                           
                           Free will is meaningless in a universe with God.

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               Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Agreed. I love the question of this thread. I guess Randy will figure out a way  to dismiss this answer

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                  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  The answer dismissed itself, WOC!  Satan did not create temptation!  He was perfect until tempted by something or someone!

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                     mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     No, Randy, it was not temptation that got him kicked out of Heaven.
                     
                     Satan is the temptor.  It was egotistical pride.

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                        Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        So no entity was ever tempted to do wrong before Satan?  Are you saying temptation didn't exist before Satan?  Then Lucifer could not be tempted to be jealous of God and we are right back where we started!  Makes no sense at all!  You can do better than that!

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                           getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           
                           
                           Man this is a hard question!

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                              newnessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              the only person that Tempted Satan was God, his power and Glory was what tempted Satan.
                              If we are to blame all to temptation and going back to its origin, then I guess it was God's.
                              
                              My take is that, God created freewill for all to exist. without freewill existance defies itself and thus nullifies the very existance of what we individually think "is God"
                              Remember, the 1st Principle or God did not write these so called scripture but man did to their own decernment and not even God, to make matters even way out of sync. The translator did a terrible job of using their own personal understanding to what the original scribes had in purpose. Same text was facilitated to Separate and conquer, the deeds from inception was through self exaltation.

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                                 pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 Yep

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                           Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           No temptation before ha-satan, because ha-satan was apart of man.
                           Man was fashioned in the Sixth Reality (Day). Add to that, satan is an acute, an adversary. What would be adverse to purity, order? Chaos and adversity...

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                           ecogginsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           Since God created all beings to have free will, they possessed within themselves the possibility of choosing to disobey and or turn away from God. So temptation is inherent in all beings who have free will. However, temptation in and of itself is not sin, as pointed out by stilljustwonderin and woman of courage. So the answer to your question would be God himself is the origin of temptation as it goes hand-in-hand with free will. However, this does not mean that God is the origin of sin, because sin is the act of following free will to give in to temptation. God did not cause satan to give in to temptation, satan chose that for himself and from that time forward he chose to be the tempter.

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                              Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              Agreed.

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                        getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        So was Satan just created that way?  Was he created to be egotistical and proud, or did something or someone else, after he was created, influence his behavior?

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                           mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           greed  getitrite, much like the politicians today, greed power control.
                           
                           though we can not (rightfully) blame our misdoings on him ,  satan knows our weaknesses and he uses that knowledge against us to instill doubt and the like in our minds.

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                              getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              So "who" is Greed?  Or was Greed a spirit, that entered Satan's body?  And where did Greed come from?
                              
                              
                              
                              This is all your opinion.  And it is not based on any evidence, but rather myth, superstition, and imagination.
                              
                              In reality, the concept of Satan being the originator of sin is absurd.

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                  stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  No.   Don't you see?  He is defending Satan.  We should stop picking on Satan.    Never.

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                     Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Why would I defend a character, and that's all he is, in a fictional story?  Obviously, none of you guys know the answer and are merely guessing.  Is that what we are left with?

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                        Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        I knew you would finally say that we don't know the answer You rather believe lies rather than the truth. We didn't make up answers by guessing. The facts are in the bible. Love and blessings to you.

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                           Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           Look, Woman of Courage (frankly, that name does not fit your demeanor well as you keep flitting away when the going gets tough) should I lie to you and just say "oh yes, you are indeed correct, sister Courage" when you answers leave much to be desired, or when you just say "the Bible says so"?
                           
                           Unlike you, it takes more than "the bible is true because it says it is" to satisfy my queries.  Just because your mind is shut completely off from anything not in your novel, doesn't mean everyone else has shut down theirs too. 
                           
                           If you don't like to be disagreed with, then don't say anything!  Sorry to inform you, your opinion is no better than those of anyone else!

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                              Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              More assumptions? Your question in the thread is not tough . I have no problems at all with anyone who disagree with me. You are disagreeing with God's word, not me. Lastly, the bible is not opinions, it full of all facts. I respect your rights to not believe, and it will be very kind of you to respect my rights to believe. Thank you! Good night.

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                                 Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 I do respect your right to believe whatever you like WOC and I'm sure you will give me the same right.  You tell me I am disagreeing with god's word which is disrespectful to me, can't you see that?
                                 
                                 Now if god himself tells me this, I will surely believe it.  But you are mere mortal and just because you believe something doesn't make it true.  Especially when you have nothing but an old book to back up your arguments. 
                                 
                                 One more question!  Did you inherit your religion from your parents, or did you consider the other religions carefully before you chose your present one?

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                                    Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    Hi Randy, No I didn't inherit becoming a christian from my parents. I chose to become a christian all by myself I was not forced by anyone to make my choice.

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                                       Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       What other religious organizations did you examine before deciding christianity was the right one for you? Oh yeah, and did you then, or at anytime, live anywhere in the bible belt?  So your parents were not christians?

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                                    Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    I examined Jehovah witnesses. It didn't take me long to figure out their shoe didn't fit me. I did not grow up in a christian home. Later, I attended a pentecostal church, and shortly after I repented for all my sins and accepted Jesus Christ in my life. I never regretted it. My mother and sister saw the light of Jesus in me and decided to become christians also. I knew of some of the other religions, but none of them fit me. I know without a doubt , I am on the right path. Jesus is the only true way to eternal life.

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                                       Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       Hence the reason for asking you about the bible belt!  Had you been born in the middle east the odds are you would now be of the Muslim faith!  One's environment has much to do with the beliefs they willingly embrace. 
                                       
                                       If this were not true, there would only be one religion which everyone agreed on.  I would wager you did not look closely at either the Muslim faith, nor others you were not familiar with because of your particular place of birth! Am I wrong in this assumption?

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                              Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              that's exactly what happens with believers, Randy.  I was a believer for over a decade and then when I had questions, I still didn't dare consider that it wasn't real until recently.  That's how indoctrinated I was.
                              
                              I was brought up with the concepts of hell, demons, Satan etc.
                              
                              I see many christians these days don't believe in these - apparently they are unbiblical.  Christians can't agree what is a correct interpretation or not.  Taking the bible literally leads to lots of difficulties, as you've raised

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                                 Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 Randy, Well I thrilled to not be born in the Middle East. I don't desire any part of the Muslim faith, and I am not saying you are assuming anything this time

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                                    Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    Neither do you answer my questions concisely concerning your faith of choice!  Do you not like the questions, or just the answers you would truthfully give?

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                                       Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       What? My post clearly states that I am a christian. My faith of choice is Christianity. Do you need glasses? Maybe someone can help you stay with the topic of your thread. It would be a good idea for you to start another thread if you prefer to change topics. Thanks!

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                                          Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          A Christian? Which denomination? There are 35,000 different denominations.
                                          
                                          Hence the fights, wars, burning witches, ill will and arguments etc caused by your beliefs.

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                                 mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 yes bailey, a lot of the bible can not be taken literally, as much of it is written in parables.

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                           DoubleScorpionposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           I am curious to something. If the facts are in the bible...why is there so many different versions of the bible...which one is right? And why has it changed so much over the years.

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                              Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              I mystical sense say Jesus was right, but the translation are wrong, causing 2000 disagreeable version of the bible

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                           newnessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           Think of this, if Jesus needed to Bible and God doesn't even own one. why do we refer to it as guidance, The answers are Inate to everyone, individualized what Soul/Spirit was initially programed with.
                           
                           Which leads me to another thought, in the program which was used to create Satan. The anormally was in the Design, so the anormally in Normal for Satan's design.
                           Angel were supposed to be Gods puppets and God chose to make one better than the Rest of which is just wrong,
                           
                           God was falliable in his perfect Design, all by the all mighty's design

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                     Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Yes I see what he is doing. Satan is evil and full of hate. I will never defend him

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         Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Where does it say the angels had free will?  And if evil tempted the angels, including Lucifer, why does Satan always get blamed?  Who took the blame before Satan started taking the rap?  So it stands to reason god created evil, no?

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            stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Why wouldn't the angels also have free will?

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            Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            well, there are verses in the bible saying God is responsible for evil
            
            http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ … ncies.html

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         sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         So do Christians.

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         Dave Mathewsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         We could all call ourselves "Data" you know from the
         star trek tng.

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      kessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      My dear friend how then would You Know?
      
      One may give you the perfect and correct answer but are YOU  able understand it?
      
      In addition, you based your question on a false assumption propagated by Christianity who perpetuate the false Satan because they have not understood Spirituality.
      
      Nevertheless Satan is the personification of all darkeness, False, Evil.
      
      He need not be tempted to  be himself.

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         Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I personally do not believe in either god or Satan!  But I do try to understand why others do believe the imperfect logic used to propagate the cult.  Usually I find the adherents know even less than I do about the belief usually having inherited their religion from their parents.
         
         But the story intrigues me even though it is badly thought out and fairly ridiculous in its plot!  This angle is particularly troubling because of the lack of info concerning the angel's behavior.

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            Lisa HWposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Randy, can I see if I understand the question correctly...
            
            So, your point is:
            
            1.  Either evil existed in the world, and Satan was tempted by it (in which case, he isn't responsible for all the evil in the world - maybe he's just someone who likes to get people in trouble with existing evil...)   (Also, though, why was there evil in the world in the first place, although that doesn't even really have to be answered for the purposes of this thread.)
            
            or
            
            2.  God created someone/something capable of being  (or even generating from within) evil on its/his/her own, and that was Lucifer/Satan. (And if that were the case, everyone else is also capable of being/generating evil without Satan's being involved at all.)
            
            and the question goes back to:
            
            "So which is it?"
            
            
            A spin-off question might be:
            
            If one compares God's creating man with someone inventing a wind-up robot and having it do its own thing, that means:
            
            a) Either God isn't all knowing and "invented" someone/something that does work right, or
            
            b) God intentionally invented man as man happens to be (capable of both good and evil in varying degrees), and the fact that man commits evil is part of what God found acceptable when he designed man the way he chose to. 
            
            Comparing the birth of a human being with putting a wind-up robot on the floor and seeing if it works doesn't make sense; because newborn babies DO "work right".  It's when someone/something damages them that they don't.  That would go back to the thing that God makes human beings good and/or neutral.  He just doesn't make them immune to damage.  It also goes back, however, to the thing that evil is generated from someone/something other than Satan lurking around each human being.

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               Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               There are all sorts of possibilities to be considered, Lisa!  But none of them are very satisfying because the seem to cast God as being petty and not capable of running his own show.  But then, aren't we supposed to be made in his image?
               
               Not a very inviting thought, but then it gives a whole new meaning to being "godly."  Needing to be worshiped, jealous of his creations, vindictive,confusing, easily bored, and irresponsible for creating evil.  Yep, godly and human traits are not very different from each other!

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                  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  the god of the bible seems to possess negative traits as well as positive, with superpowers thrown in, indicating god was created in man's image not the other way around

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                     mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     really? what superpowers do you possess?

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                        Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        I said superpowers thrown in ie god = man + superpowers

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            Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            there is so much in the bible & with religion that is contradictory and lacks logic.   I was indoctrinated into christianity as a child and was never allowed to question it.  Now that I question it and reject it, I get told "satan got me" or that I am the antichrist.  Such love in christianity

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         Kimberly Bunchposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Okay, I confess! I tempted Satan, what can I say!
         
         

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            Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            THREE HAIL MARY'S
            
            Poof!!!
            
            Your forgiven
            
            Keep it up for every sinful thought

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            Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I always suspected there was a Mrs. God!

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               Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               It may not work, she is un easy with the bible.

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      Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Randy,
      The word Satan is from ha-satan (translated self deception).
      Not an entity but a metaphor of indulgence/reliance on the self/the mind.
      
      The fullness of knowledge of EL was in man.
      He was aware of the existence of good/evil (consciousness of his own thinking, but did not indulge it, at first. He wasn't actually tempted, which most forget. He blatantly indulged, where his female counterpart was seduced, suggesting the female was more emotional than the male. Many scholars have wondered to what length she was able to understand the emotional side of the seduction and the trigger point...
      
      If anyone cares to find out: there is no mention of an entity called Satan or Lucifer found anywhere in Torah or the Compilations post Y`shua. Satan is exploited metaphor and scapegoat for humanities lack of commitment to Creator, each other and faith. It is a scapegoat for sidestepping their natural responsibilities...in my humble opine.
      
      The story of Job is the only mention of the Tempter being enabled --on a leash. This has also been deemed a battle in Job to confirm his righteous thinking v humanistic thinking. His mind was tested. All physical objects removed, all friends, family, etc, was done to test if Job meant what he believed, beyond anything he thought, felt, saw or didn't see. Job proves without a doubt, one great truth, even if you remove everything from a human, they will cling to one last thing --themselves, else give up themselves for perfection -- EL.

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         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         That is what I was thinking above; but was leaving it up to you to give it eloquence.

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            Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks Jerami!

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         Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Yes, I know, 21!  And Devil comes from De evil or something like that.  I put no stock in either the Bible or the Torah, but merely wondered about the storyline used to propagate either faith.
         
         Apparently, God wished to tempt his angels, as well as the humans he produced for his game of amusement.  Since he created everything, he also created evil.  So technically, God is responsible for all of the evil both in heaven and hell.  Never thought about heaven containing evil though!

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            mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Randy, where is the research? Evil has never been in Heaven.
            
            
            I am going to do something I normally do not do. I would appreciate if you do not agree with it that you merely state you do not. Please do not ridicule. This is just a favor for me. And I am not being rude, please understand. ....
            
            
            If you will read Ezekiel 28:12-18 here you will see your answer.
            
            Lucifer was considered as the anointed cherub, (Angel). and he had free will over The Garden of Eden. He came and went as he pleased. This scripture is fairly easy to understand, and explains to us what took place before  during and after his (dismissal).
            
            Thank you in advance for not ridiculing.

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               Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Why do you see questions as ridicule, WOC?  In another thread you accused me of trying to deceive you because I question your statements.  I promise you, deceiving you would be no great victory for me.
               
               I read the scripture you alluded to, it says nothing about the origination of sin or temptation.  It said Lucifer was created prefect and then god found iniquity in him!  Nothing about who tempted Lucifer!

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                  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Sorry, Where did I say you were ridiculing me in this forum? Look at the post right above you. You got the wrong person.

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                     Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     "am going to do something I normally do not do. I would appreciate if you do not agree with it that you merely state you do not. Please do not ridicule."
                     
                     Perhaps this was what gave me the idea, WOC!

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                        Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        You still don't get it. mom101 is who posted that post. Will you kindly read above?

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                           Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           Sorry!  I apologize!  Too many posts to respond to!

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                              Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              That's ok

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                     Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     I can understand the mix-up.  WOC and mom have very similar posts

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                        mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        thank you bailey

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               Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               and both Jesus and Lucifer were referred to as the morning star

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                  DoubleScorpionposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Jesus(Greek) or Joshua/Yahshua (Hebrew) Christ/Messiah (Anointed one) and Lucifer are both also referred to as the Light John Chapter 1:4-5,8-9 for Jesus and Ezekiel 28:17, and both were on earth to walk among men.
                  
                  Also when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist he was tempted by the "devil" (We'll use Luke's version: Luke 4:2-13) in verses Luke 4:5-8 the "devil" tempts Jesus with all the kingdoms saying that it was given to him and for him to do with as he pleases...but Colossians 1:16 says "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" so i would have to agree that the "devil" is in fact us fighting against ourselves between doing what is "good" and what is "bad". Although it is my humble opinion that what is good or bad has been determined by "man" and not necessarily "god"

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         Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         yep, women are given the blame in the bible for giving into temptation.  Story of Job with satan on leash - so really god is in charge of what satan does

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      Kimberly Bunchposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Satan in some religious text is God's right hand man. He is the accuser of sin. And has been called the tempter.
      
      Not for one second would "I" ever say that "He" made me do wrong deeds. For I know better than that! Silliness to blame someone else for our wrong doings! And another thing our soul's cannot burn in hell for we our spirit beings... when we shed our body's (die). And the soul does not feel pain.
      
      We judge ourselves in the end.
      
      Okay, bring on the heat...I'm ready religious fanatics for your famous judgments! LOL.
      
      

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         Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Makes as much sense as any other belief!  LOL!  I was born under a cabbage leaf!

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            Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Hot topic Randy
            
            When it comes to Satan,
            
            The worst used car salesmen in the world can not hold a candle up to him.
            
            God lives in the dark

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            mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Randy, we have to be brother and sister. Mama always told me she found me under a cabbage leaf.   Small world.

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               Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Isn't everyone born under a cabbage leaf?

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               Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               That's funny

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      getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Randy,
      
      I prayed on this one, and I still can't come up with any sensible answers.  I'm gonna go pray some more!

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         Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Sensible answers?  Did you think I actually expected anything other than normal religious conjecture?  It's me, the serpent!  Look how many different views these mortals have! 
         
         Do you understand now why there are so many different denominations of christians and other religious groups?  No one knows anything for sure.  They can take the same book and spout different theories of its meaning to each other.  Go pray some more until you think you hear something!

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            mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I aint a mere mortal. I have everlasting life. (Everybody does) but that's just between us cabbage heads.

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               Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Really?  I sure don't remember much before I was born!  LOL!

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            Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            one of the many reasons I tossed the baby out with the bathwater (see my hubs for details)

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      pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      How about....Satan along with the third of angels who were connected to God (meaning in and of God, no separation) in their godly state decided to experience themselves in other ways for whatever reason. While they were in and of God there was no such thing as "themselves" till they parted ways (or fell or whatever description the scholars gave).
      
      The bad (if you like) came about because, whilst being use to the state of being in and of God, when they parted ways (although they were still connected to God) the awareness of being in and of God was perceived as somehow lacking and limited.......
      
      Perhaps an analogy might illustrate what I'm pointing to.....
      
      Imagine God as an ocean, the ocean has waves, the tip of the waves is where human consciousness is and as the wave returns to the ocean the awareness that they are very much a part of the greater whole (the ocean) becomes more apparent.
      
      When Satan and the third of angels fell they are at the tip (or close to) part of the wave that is a lot further away from the whole (or so it seemed) and bad or evil is born because of a false feeling of separation.

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         Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         According to the bible, the angels were created perfect!  Unless they were tempted to be bad, they would never think of anything wrong.  Who tempted them?  The wave analogy doesn't do it for me, sorry!

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            pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Haha ok... forget the wave analogy.
            
            Who said they weren't perfect?
            
            The main point was in the belief that they were separated from the whole, when they decided to experience another form. While experiencing another form conditions arose that would not or could not allow for the whole to still be experienced only part of the whole. But despite the belief they were still very much connected.

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               Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               God said it, according to Ezekiel!  But then he found iniquity in Lucifer!  My question was, who tempted Lucifer to be bad!

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                  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Ezekiel said it, God didn't.
                  
                  Like man even in our perfectness lucifer had free will. Even in our perfectness we sometimes do not make the right choices.
                  
                  What makes us make not so good choices? The belief that we are separated and that we are not part of a much greater whole. The belief that we are it the alpha omega. Easily done as history and present demonstrate quite well.

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                     Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     I agree that possibly Ezekiel was speaking for god.  But there is no way to know if any author of the bible was speaking for god or just for his own ideas.  In this case, the bible is useless!

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                        pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Thats like saying The Cat in the Hat was useless! LOL At the time I found it useful. Nowadays its no longer useful.
                        
                        The bible is sometimes useful, sometimes not. Especially when it isn't in a language that is easy to understand. Take away the writers personality and preferences for embellishment there can be much wisdom in it.
                        
                        Whatever book one reads however if it is advocating truth can always be confirmed from within.

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                     Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     I think everything in the Universe is connected (coincides), its just most of mankind wants to separate.
                     
                     Is it due to Satan or man?

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                        pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        I'm thinking man. Satan is possibly a fall fella.

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                           Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           I can get rid of a very negative man
                           
                           Why can't mankind get rid of a very negative Satan
                           
                           How come I can master many things that this super natural, all power God can't?

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                              pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              Perhaps its because they are always looking outside themselves. (Satans to blame or Gods to blame, they are the perfect fall fellas)
                              
                              Perhaps too the limits or flaws if you will placed on this all powerful God are placed there only by man.

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                                 Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 Boy, are you delightful, even with Satan.
                                 
                                 You, make me feel like going back to my lighter self approach to life.
                                 
                                 The last few years have been so so to hard
                                 
                                 Are you religious?
                                 Or
                                 Spiritual rather than religious

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                                    pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    Awww thanks, I have been called many things and I do appreciate and am grateful for any positive label that comes my way!
                                    
                                    Are there any other options to the multiple choice question? Can I be neither or both? Because I really haven't been able to classify myself haha.
                                    
                                    From your profile however I suspect we are on the same wavelength. So whats that called do you know?

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                                       Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       I rarely say this to anyone, I may be a mystic. Sshh One who thrives to come closer to god.
                                       
                                       You are very talented with words, my success has been expressed through visual arts and traveling, not enough practice with writing English.
                                       
                                       Most people want me to take sides, and they think mystics are religious. When I'm really spiritual sided rather than religious and see god in everyone. God is just a word it’s the behavior of love, led by healthy spirit and imagination that really matters.
                                       
                                       Religion can seems like the fight club with many contradicting words that I don't understand how it flows. Some how it works, it’s just that I feel we can all do much better than live in the pass with mid evil time consciousness.

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                                    mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    Castlepaloma,
                                    
                                    religious vs spiritual=I take spiritual.
                                    
                                    Now   what is a mystic?
                                    What is an agnostic?
                                    
                                    
                                    Religion, and religion only is a dangerous thing.

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      jacobkuttytaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Surely I didn't tempt Satan!

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         Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         You had as much chance as anyone!  LOL!

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      stephane86posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      No one tempted Satan. The Bible speaks of Lucifer, an angel who was fallen out of heaven. His plan is to re-enter heaven and sit on the throne of God. Satan was once this angel, but he fell because he did not want to serve God. God could not forgive him because he is an angel and once he makes a decision he cannot change his mind.

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         Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I don't know about that!  Right before the flood, god was sorry he had created man!  A change of mind, it seems to me!

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            stephane86posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            God does not have actual human emotions. To say that God was sorry actually means that He decided by His Justice to no longer tolerate the sin in the ante-diluvian world. God repented, in the sense that, He no longer saw any good in his Creation and felt that He had to renew it in order to preserve the human race and further his plan of salvation.
            
            Going back to the subject of the angels, it is to be noted that angels are disembodied spirits. They are persons like us, who have intellect and will but their capacity of comprehension is far greater than ours. We, humans, arrive at conclusions by making logical steps called reasoning; on the other hand, angels arrive at conclusions by literally seeing the conclusions involved in all their choices and in all situations. The angelic mind is thus able to see correctly how to act in a given situation. According to Church Tradition, Lucifer rebelled against God and could not be forgiven for he thought his judgment was right. After having taken a decision, an angel cannot change his mind since his choices are irrevocable.
            
            According to the Bible, Lucifer, who is called also "Morning Star", "Son of the Dawn" was the highest of all the angels. A passage from the book of Ezekiel, speaking of the King of Tyre, relates in symbolic terms, the fall of Lucifer. Here, he is spoken of as a cherub, in whom iniquity was found. In fact, this is because he saw in himself great beauty and sought to be worshipped as God also:
            
            "With the Cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God, walking among the fiery stones. Blameless you were in your conduct from the day you were created, Until evil was found in you,the result of your far-flung trade; violence was your business, and you sinned. Then I banned you from the mountain of God; the Cherub drove you from among the fiery stones. You became haughty of heart because of your beauty; for the sake of splendor you debased your wisdom. I cast you to the earth, so great was your guilt; I made you a spectacle in the sight of kings. Because of your guilt, your sinful trade, I have profaned your sanctuaries, And I have brought out fire from your midst which will devour you. I have reduced you to dust on the earth in the sight of all who should see you.
            " (Ezekiel 28:14-18)
            
            In the book of Isaiah, behind the name of the king of Babylon, Lucifer is referenced more explicitly as "Morning Star", "Son of the Dawn" and his actual fall is mentioned:
            
            "How have you fallen from the heavens, O morning star, son of the dawn! How are you cut down to the ground, you who mowed down the nations!  You said in your heart: "I will scale the heavens; Above the stars of God I will set up my throne; I will take my seat on the Mount of Assembly, in the recesses of the North.  I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will be like the Most High!"   (Isaiah 14:12-14)
            
            Because Satan rebelled against God, it is his plan to return back there and establish himself as king and ruler of Creation since he believes himself to be right in his decision to oppose God.
            
            In the Book of Revelation, the fallen angel Lucifer is referenced as the red dragon who is in his rebellion opposed God and was fought by the armies of God. Eventually, he lost and in his fall, he dragged with himself a third of the stars, who are symoblic of the angels:
            
            "A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems. Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne. The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days. Then war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels battled against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back, but they did not prevail and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. The huge dragon, the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world, was thrown down to earth, and its angels were thrown down with it. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have salvation and power come, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Anointed. For the accuser  of our brothers is cast out, who accuses them before our God day and night." (Revelation 12:1-10)
            
            It is this red dragon, this serpent and tempter whom Scripture and Tradition have identified as Satan, the fallen angel and prince of the devils.

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               Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               All well and good, but Lucifer had to think he could succeed in his usurpation of god from the throne for some reason.  If god created him perfect, this means he was very intelligent.  It stands to reason he was tempted by his known chances of success in the endeavor.
               
               This paints a different picture of god's power over Lucifer and the other angels.  Is it possible god overthrew another deity to gain control himself?  This opens the door to there being other gods, despite the claims of the christians.

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       withoutadoubtposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Lucifer wasn't tempted. It doesn't require a tempter to have the right mix of attitude, choice, mentality, etc.
       Satan is sin. However he doesn't whisper into people's ears, telling them to sin. As humans we see sin and see how good it can be and as we keep thinking about it, we tempt ourselves into sin.

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          Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Sin is in the eye of the beholder.  A very subjective topic, sin!

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          Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Who is this Lucifer you speak of: A Man, a Snake, a Codfish?
          Can you show us where he/she/its name is in the Torah, Tanakh and Correspondences called New Testimony.
          
          For the record, S/satan is NOT sin. The result of ha-S/satan is sin.

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             DoubleScorpionposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             "Lucifer" is one meaning of a Hebrew word... other meanings for the same word is "Star of the Morning", "Day-Star", "Shining one", "Morning star". This name is reverenced in Isiah 14:12 depending on your version of the bible will depend on the name you get... a better question... try reading Isiah 14:12
             
             New International Version (©1984)
             How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!
             
             English Standard Version (©2001)
             “How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!
             
             New American Standard Bible (©1995)
             "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!and the read
             
             King James Bible
             How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
             
             And then read Revelations 22:16
             
             
             New International Version (©1984)
             "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
             
             English Standard Version (©2001)
             “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
             
             New American Standard Bible (©1995)
             "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
             
             King James Bible
             I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
             
             
             And this means???
             
             And other question....Why did god create light twice??? once on the First day and then again on the Fourth day??... Read Genesis chapter 1 and then read John Chapter 1

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                Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                the Name Lucifer is attributed ONLY by post Y`shua believers and appears --by name-- no where in the scripts of "Old" or "New".
                The word lucem ferre (aka lucifer) is a Latin Vulgar --err Vulgate, 3rd Century interpretation of the Hebrew word meaning "light bearer" or "bearer of light", which is described in Rev regarding Y`shua. It is very similar in phraseology to armor bearer.
                BTW, That Isaiah reference is regarding the king.
                The same word translation in 2 Peter 1:19:  You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

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       dbh123posted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Randy,
       In the pre- existance Heavenly Father created us. He knows each of us personally.  He knows each of our names.  He is our Father in Heaven.   The first gift to us was Agency. This is the ability to chose for ourselves.  To make our own decisions.  To show,  to prove, we can make the right choices and live to the end of our temporal lives striving to be like him.  This is the purpose of life on this earth. Heavenly Fathers greatest purpose was (paraphrase),  To bring to pass eternal life and immortality of man.   So we can have eternal life as Heavenly Father does.  We wanted this and Heavenly Father  provided.
       
       WE were taught at his feet the gospel. All things pertaining to God.    WE new our heavenly Father and new his personality.  We were taught that we could live as he does and enjoy the glories of the Celestial Kingdom like he does. But we would first have to Live in a temporal state and prove to him that we believe in him.  We would be born to this earth and not have an instant remembrance of him and what we were taught by him.  In the grand Council, before the earth was created in Genesis,  Heavenly Father explained, we would have to live in a probationary state.  That we would get the opportunity to hear the His Gospel and have our agency to decide whether to accept it or not.  Once accepted we must learn to Obey His commandments and endure , (Slow to anger, long suffering, loving one another, giving of ourselves to others in service, having integrity, etc..). to the end of our temporal lives. But because we would be in a temporal state and subject to the flesh, we would need a Savior who would voluntarily, take on the sins of the world by being the one who would have to die in a perfect state.  He would be the one to pay the price of sin, His actions were the justice needed for being forgiven.
        
       Lucifer Knew this.  He knew not all of Heavenly Fathers Children would make it back to live with Heavenly Father.  He also knew that By being Children of a god (Heavenly Father), and once we make it back to Him we are then eligible to become like him and enjoy all the things he does. 
       
       (Paraphrasing)  Once Heavenly Father asked who would be this Savior Lucifer spoke up first. then  for his reasons, (and the gift of his agency)  he said that he would go and do this. Then  take away agency from all of us,(all who have lived, do live, and will live on this earth) ,and bring all of us back to Heavenly Father and the Glory be Lucifer's.
       
       Lucifer and his followers (Our brothers and sisters) were given the opportunity to repent. He and they did not.  Hence the great  battle (of wills) in Heaven .  They  were then cast out of heaven.  Heavenly Father changed Lucifer's name to Satan,  Father of all sin.  Never to receive a body, (we need our bodies for the Resurrection) and be able to prove to Heavenly Father that they know and love him.
       
       There is nothing in scripture that says Lucifer was tempted. Lucifer had his Agency. This would mean HE chose . AND WAS NOT TEMPTED.

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       ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       psst...you're talking about the Greek Lucifer which is an adaptation of the Judaic Shekina, the fallen light. in ancient times it was an attempt to explain the beginnings of the universe when the unitial light became trapped in darkness...in shells of matter which created the whole universe. Then the early christians vilified this idea to distance themselves from the Jewish beliefs that rejected them.
       
       It really is saying that the children of god (the jews) were once the gaurdians of the sacred knowledge but they themselves to be better than god and now became the source of discord and hatred.
       
       Satan is a whole different concept. It is just a word for the opponent, the enemy. the aspect of self that resists.
       
       Too much enlightenment Godwin?

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          Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Not nearly, Cecilia!  LOL!  I also meant to use Beelzebub, the Adversary, Old Nick, etc. You've never been to many southern churches or you would know all of these monikers are used to describe this villain!  Thanks for the literal mythical info tho!

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             ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Aw..that. (baiting people again, Randy?)  That may be an interesting cultural experience. I wonder what they'll do to me if I lectured there? lol?

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                Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Probably hand you a rattlesnake to test your faith first! LOL!

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                   habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Not on your first visit!

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             ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Beelze--- is a shadow aspect of a major arch angel. I forget who...OH the god of healing. Raphael.
             The archangel raphael.
             
             If you refuse healing, the beelze--- aspect will take over. It's just the psyche making its usual dance of opposites.

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          Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          __________________________
          
          Lucifer is a Latin word not a Greek one. The Shekhinah, is the Hebrew word for the Divine presence, the Holy Ghost, the Holy power of God.
          
          Where do you get all your misinformation? And why do you state them as true?
          
          God have mercy

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             ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             That is right it is Latin. Lucifer, the bright light from the greek idea. you are really smart deborah. i BET YOU GOT THAT FROM being the wife of a mystic from israel. I really am not an expert of lucifer like you are,  but i do know that satan is not lucifer but from a greek conception of the idea of bright light falling down from heaven..
             
             the idea of the fallen light is recurrent in myth and the shekina has its counterparts in the vedic tradition, fallen light that must be recovered. astarte innana and so and so forth. women are evil. and no the shekina as the holy ghost would be incorrect. it is YHVH that is the holy ghost, the god around us. did your husband teach you that the shekina is the holy ghost. I thought rabbis don't believe in the holy ghost. i will check with rabbi cohen there at chabad after his meeting with obama. The entire creation is the shekina the fragments of light that fell into darkness. Did you get your actual TRUE information from your husband who is a rabbi mystic who is orthodox? chassidic? liberal? I forget.  the christians were distancing themselves from their judaic roots. but the idea of gnosticism came from the idea of peeling the sparks of darkness to reveal the light of the shekina. totally NOT holy ghost. there are many scholarly books about mythology that talks about that. You could start with MYTHS of LIGHT if you're interested.

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                Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                ____________________
                Shekhinah in the Hebrew language, religion aside, means the Divine Presence that is indwelling. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
                The part of Elohyim that dwells among man. The comforter. Who said the Jewish do not believe in this? Your idea of the Jewish people is stereotyped. Elohyim is all, and in all. The Shekhinah is God himself, and the creating feminine aspect of God.
                The Holy Spirit is spoken of in Isaiah (Hebrew scripture)
                
                When someone challenges you, you like to revert to put downs, every time.
                
                The Greeks never portrayed Lucifer as Satan, or the Devil
                
                In another thread, you said the Bn'y Elohyim meant Magician, but it means Sons of God (in the Hebrew language).

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                   ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   I know what you're saying Deborah. But you are arguing something that is actually in fact inaccurate. There is no Holy Ghost in Judaism. None.  There is the Spirit of G-d and it is part of the triune G-d which also borrowed from Judaic belief of the three most holy names of G-d Elohim, Hashem ELohim and ELI.  The myth of the Shekinah (and when I say myth I mean symbolic story not lie)is a recurring theme of the fragmentation of G-d's light. All of creation is the Shekinah and in Christian dogma, the DOVE or the holy ghost is just not this because it comes down. I would say it is more ELI than YHVH,but that's me because the Holy Spirit enflames the heart. (he who sins against the inner G-d will never be forgiven, which means betray yourself and you will never find peace)   There is no Shekinah counterpart of Christianity because the latter christians didn't want to associate with it -- they vilified it as Astarte, the demoness. Because astarte also is the shining one that fell into darkness.
                   
                   It's well known.  Hashem is the counterpart of the holy spirit but to  point out the confusion, here is an excerpt from the Jewish encycopedia
                   
                   "The Divine Spirit.
                   
                   What the Bible calls "Spirit of Yhwh" and "Spirit of Elohim" is called in the Talmud and Midrash "Holy Spirit" ("Ruaḥ ha-Ḳodesh." never "Ruaḥ Ḳedoshah," as Hilgenfeld says, in "Ketzergesch." p. 237). Although the expression "Holy Spirit" occurs in Ps. li. 11 (LXX. πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον) and in Isa. lxiii. 10, 11, it had not yet the definite meaning which was attached to it in rabbinical literature: in the latter it is equivalent to theexpression "Spirit of the Lord," which was avoided on account of the disinclination to the use of the Tetragrammaton (see, for example, Targ. to Isa. xl. 13). It is probably owing to this fact that the Shekinah is often referred to instead of the Holy Spirit. It is said of the former, as of the Holy Spirit, that it rests upon a person. The difference between the two in such cases has not yet been determined. It is certain that the New Testament has πνεῦμα ἅγιον in those passages, also, where the Hebrew and Aramaic had "Shekinah"; for in Greek there is no equivalent to the latter, unless it be δόξα (="gleam of light"), by which "ziw ha-shekinah" may be rendered. Because of the identification of the Holy Spirit with the Shekinah, πνεῦμα ἅγιον is much more frequently mentioned in the New Testament than is "Ruaḥ ha-Ḳodesh" in rabbinical literature."
                   
                   See? you are speaking of a misconception of the meanings of both the Shekinah and the Holy Spirit. BUT also it is all G-d, for G-d is the source.It is a forgivable misconception since, many who do not study these things in detail think this is so, particularly if your point of view is ironically more christian that rabbinic.
                   
                   Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. … z16zvinAkS
                   
                   Also a son of god, is a sorcerer.  To be a son of god, is not the same as being a Little Face. Long Face and Little Face?  not the same.  it is a colloquial term just like walk on water is being calm. Wikipedia agrees with you.  I checked but from a scholarly point of you the Dove is not around, its within. Hashem however is the Spirit of G-d and you could argue that it is the Shekinah because all is G-d, but strictly speaking, the bride is not the husband. The One that receives G-d 's light is not the one that comes down. The Spirit of G-d comes down on the Shekinah, the people of G-d including all of creation.

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                      Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      __________
                      Unlike you, I don't have to ask someone,
                      Also I don't rely on any English translations of anything.
                      There are many Rabbis who will tell you different
                      
                      And I am not arguing anything, just stating facts.
                      
                      The phrase Ruakh ha-Qodesh, means the same as Holy Spirit/Holy ghost and is the holy presence of God..seen in Psalms 51:13. Ruakh ha-Quodesh is interchanged with Shekhinah in rabbinic text. The Shekhinah/Holy Spirit is described as fire or light.
                      
                      The Holy Spirit/Shekhinah is very much in the Jewish teachings.
                      
                      Now I know you rub elbows with friends of the president, but you are still wrong.
                      I've been in a Jewish family since I was 18, and know what the Jewish people teach.
                      
                      Now go copy some more misinformation from the internet.
                      
                      I'm done discussing your ridiculous dogma
                      
                      And the Bn'y Elohyim are the sons of God. The angels.
                      In Job it says the Bn'y Elohyim shouted when Yah created the Foundations of the Universe.
                      What blasphemy to say they are sorcerers. Where do you get that ridiculous stuff? You make it up because no Jewish text will teach you that. Saying this stuff shows me how unlearned you are in the Jewish stuff you are always trying to teach.
                      Goodbye

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                         ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         I don't rub elbows with the rabbi,I don't even shake his hand.  I write for him because I am a Noahide and that's my role there. And I still ask and consult people, still confirm my findings even if I am a speaker of TED. Yes that's right, I was on bbc a few weeks back talking about the tree of life. Misinformation is relative. You could be misinformed and not know it because you don't ask. I do not doubt that you know many things. But also that you do not know certain aspects of Chassidic  Thought more than a teacher of Tanya. Or a published author of several books. Or a Rebbe.   Because no one has all the answers. Well, except for you since you're the wife of the rabbi from Israel.  I am telling you the difference between the mythological Shekinah and the Holy spirit in Christian thought is entirely different. And going back to the source of this argument. The Shekinah as the fallen light IS an archetypal story that is recurrent in world myth. Lucifer is the only Christian counterpart. IT WAS VILIFIED.
                         
                         The thing is Deborah, I am speaking from a scholarly perspective. From a mythological perspective. (and not what did you call it? DOGMA? ha ha--my dear you really need to get out of that small Kabbalah world) There is no blasphemy when you are studying mythology. You are identifying patterns of thought. You always peg me as some kind of Kabbalah nut who is competing with you for who is more Jewish. Well, I actually have Jewish blood from my grandfather and grandmother's side. But who cares. that doesn't make me an authority of Judaic mysticism. What makes me an authority of Judaic Mysticism is a degree in rabbinical studies which I (nor you ) don't have, OK?

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                   crazymom3posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Awesome!

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                      ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      I'm happy you agree with someone, Crazymom3.

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       sooo Grimposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Right .... i am not a believer in God but i have done research about it and maybe this is a good answer?
       
       Satan or Lucifer whatever you prefer to call him/it , Satan always wanted to be Sat above god and when god fount out about Satans Betraying wishes he punished him by putting him so far down (hell) he would never be able to get up above god, their was nothing to tempt Satan its just the fact that God didn't create Satan, he is believed to have been around since God himself , so surely they both have been around for the same time , they both lived together since well ... since the dawn of time i guess....
       
       so imagine theirs   twin brothers and they are the first two people to move into this estate , then over the years more and more people come to the estate and being new to the place they need help finding their way around, both twins would like to feel that themselves are the most knowledgeable out of the two and would like people to come to them for help, but ofcourse as one twin will give just a small good piece of advice word will spread that he is the twin to go to if you need help, now the other twin isnt happy he needs to find away to become the better twin , they were both equal before but now he knows people believe his brother is the better of the two. so lets say he devlops some kind of evil plot to make his brother fall below him in peoples minds, then the other brother finds out and in a rage he chucks him out of the estate and so far away that he will never be able to become ragarded as 'higher' than him
       
       hope you enjoyed my metaphorical story/answer

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       Thesourceposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Great question!
       Would God allow Satan to exist in the first place?
       God has no reason to create Satan and therefore "Satan" does not exist.
       
       However, most will not agree with this because they feel God is not that Good.

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          habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          But according to the Bible, God created evil.

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          crazymom3posted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I would not agree with THESOURCE, not because "I feel that god is not that good." but because I've felt them both. THERE  is no one in the world who could ever convince me they don't exist.

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             ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             it's interesting but yeah, nobody can argue with what you feel.

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             pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Could it be though that they are one and the same. Kind of like the right brain left brain. They each have a different function yet they are still one brain? When the right brain is in sync with the left brain amazing things happen. Kind of like the yin and the yang. Each in and of each other but different functions.

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       Druid Dudeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       The story of Job evidences a partnership of sorts which belies the popular veiw. Two aspects actually bent to the same end. Separation of chaff from wheat.

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       crazymom3posted 14 years agoin reply to this

       POWER

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       paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Moses, Jesus or other Messengers Prophets did not present this concept; this has been wrongly understood by the scribes and added in the Bible and hence the original concept revived by Quran.
       
       Satan or Devil was never a good person; it is an evil conceptual being who disobey the Creator-God and alway incites man to do bad things. It is an opposite being of the Angels who would always incite a man to do good things; they cannot do any evil and cannot disobey the Creator-God.
       
       Man  can do evil or good as per one's will.

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   18. 61

       OpinionDuckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       You are assuming that good is dominant and came before evil.
       Here on Earth evil is predominant in human nature, and no one has to be taught to be evil, or told not to be good.
       
       Evil comes naturally, good has to be learned.
       Evil has to be supressed, while good has to be encouraged.
       The whole concept of good and evil is subjective.
       
       If you believe in Satan, then he and a third of the Angels have done much more for evil, than twice that many Angels have for good.

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          Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I'm not assuming anything.  That's for religious folk!

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             OpinionDuckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Then what is the premise or purpose of your statement.

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             OpinionDuckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Did you get past the first sentence of my reply.
             There was more to it than just the assumption.
             
             I really don't know what your comment on the question was if you don't care about the substance of Satan.
             
             It really is not worth the time to reply, if you are going to make a statement that has no meaning to the comment made to you.

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                Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                I don't know which reply you are referring to?  Is there an answer in the substance of Satan which reveals who tempted him?

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          Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          It's a good thing that it's an opinion from a duck.

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             Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Give the duck a break, Cags!  I remember when I was a duck in one of my past lives.  If they learn well during this phase, they will be reborn as a human next time.  Still several lives away from coming back as a snake, but progress nonetheless.  DOH!

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          Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Yet, not so subjective that believers can so easily describe evil, no matter what.

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          pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I see it differently. Evil on Earth is only predominant if that is all you can see. Look for good and good will always be found. What is naturally arising when you focus on either or is what arises from what you chose to dwell on.

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             Druid Dudeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Right on, Penny. Perception of the higher spirit, puts you lightyears ahead of the most lackluster and negative personalities, keep your head, you'r spot on!

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                Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                here here

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                luabuposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                penny from heaven
                your two pence worth is the first bit of sense i've heard all day

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                luabuposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Sorry druid guy
                and last night i thought you were off your trolly
                too much drink talking /regards

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   19. 62

       hutchy-rantsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       The way I see it, no one tempted Satan. God instructed Satan to do all that he could to tempt people away from God. This temptation is a struggle man has to confront to show God he is worthy. Therefore, Satan is not evil as such, but only acting out God's instructions...

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       yolanda yvetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Since you  asked  what god tempted satan  to  sin. The answer is Satan as Lucifer was one of God's most beautiful angel the answer is my friend is the  bible says God cannot tempt  man or anything with Sin. Since  God  is righteous in  all  things  and  if there  was  a god that  tempted satan to  Sin  that god would not be  righteous. That  is way Satan is a fallen angel he  was  the one  who created sin. God cannot tempt man or anything with evil God is a  Good  God even though there  is the temptation of  evil  in  the world  today.

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          Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Are you saying God did not create Satan?  So you do not think God created everything?  Or was God just the creator of the entity which created evil?

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             yolanda yvetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             God created everything, but He did not create evil.
             
             And what do you mean by entity?

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                Druid Dudeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                God is the foundation of all things. Our image dictates that evil, as a concept, is a man made thing. In heaven, we are not bound by the law which was given to man. We are released from that law.

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                Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                So evil is non-existent?  Or was it here before god?  Unless you agree evil is not real, you cannot say god created everything but he didn't create evil!  Simple words with simple meanings, no?

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       Druid Dudeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       All is not as it may appear. After all, we are delving into the secret plan. Evidence for Lucifer's involvement does not necessarily mean we know his true purpose. Key is this. The plan existed before anything else began. All which Satan is, was a part of that plan. We need to cease placing human values on divine beings, at least in the way that it has been done.

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          Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          How do you know there is a secret plan?  Secret means no one actually knows is there is actually such a plan.  Merely stating such is speculation with nothing to bolster the opinion.
          
          It is often used by those with no actual evidence to support their views.  But carry on if you like!

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       bobbleheadedsamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       World English Dictionary
       free will 
       — n   
       1.  a. the apparent human ability to make choices that are not externally determined 
       b. Compare determinism the doctrine that such human freedom of choice is not illusory 
       c. ( as modifier ): a free-will decision   
       2.  the ability to make a choice without coercion: he left of his own free will: I did not influence him.
       
       Ezekiel 28:15 (King James Version)
       [15]"Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."
       
       God found iniquity in Satan, and therefore cast him out of heaven. Why did he find iniquity?
       
       Isaiah 14:12-14 (King James Version)
       [12]"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations![13]For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:[14]I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
       
       Satan wanted to be like God. If Satan was an angel, how could he rebel against God? Who tempted him? The answer to your question is that Satan tempted himself because of his ego. He had free will and he chose to defy God. How do we know that Satan had free will? Well we can discern this from the fact that he rebeled at all. If Satan didn't have free will then logically he must have been doing what God told him. But we see from scripture that God does not temp, sin, and is free of iniquity (Numbers 23:19, Deuteronomy 4:31, Deuteronomy 10:17, 2 Chronicles 30:9, Psalms 50:6, Psalms 116:5, Proverbs 30:5, John 4:24, 1 Corinthians 1:9, 1 Corinthians 10:13, 1 Corinthians 14:33, Ephesians 4:24, 1 John 1:5, 1 John 4:7-9, 1 John 4:16). Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that Satan had free will.
       
       
       ANSWER: Satan tempted himself through his free will.

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          Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Perfection indicates flawlessness.  The inability to resist temptation indicates a flaw in Satan's perfectness.  Unless you confess that god did not create everything, only then could Satan have tempted himself with evil.

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       Shahid Bukhariposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Pride ... Into Denial

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          Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          God or Satan?

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       Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Hi, Randy!  Thanks for an interesting, speculative hub that I just caught up with.  John Calvin had very advice:  Go as far as the Bible goes and then stop.  So here are the Bible's assumptions:
       
       (1)  Satan is a created angel, a real spirit.  However, the focus of Scripture is not on him but on Jesus Christ, who defeated him with his perfect life, his death on the cross, and his resurrection.
       
       (2)  God, the 3-in-1 Creator, created the  human race good like him, but to no fault of his they rebelled against him and became very imperfect., following Satan's lead.
       
       (3)  Satan's and humanity's rebellion certainly was not God's fault, but he took the initiative when the first Person sent the second Person to rescue believers among humanity, who could not deliever themselves because they are all imperfect.  It took a perfect rescuer, Jesus, the God-man, to live and die to take believers' death penalty on himself.  He also rose from the dead to give his followers the new birth and the divine power to resist Satan's temptations.
       
       (4)  How Satan fell into imperfection is pure speculation and beyond the perview of the Bible, as is how it was possible for a perfect humanity to fall into rebellion against God..  I prefer not to speculate.

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          Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          It wasn't God's fault?  Are you saying God didn't foresee the trouble Satan would cause?  I find that hard to believe if God is to be considered omnipotent.  If he could foresee this happening, then it was his fault for creating temptation.
          
          Also, if Satan was created perfect by God, and according to the scripture in your book he was, Then God's creations are not as well made as one would think.  Besides, if God could not foresee the problems with Satan, how can you depend on his predictions for the prophesied Armageddon scenario?
          
          And as for JC, he does not fit the picture of the Messiah as foretold by the Old Testament prophets.

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             Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Randy, thanks for your response!  Who are we to blame God?  Of course, it wasn't God's fault that the angels and humans that he created turned away from him.  We aren't robots but are relatively independent from God, though totally dependent on him for life, health, and each breath we breathe.  We have a will that's responsible for our actions.  If we choose to rebel against God, the way that we are born, why blame God?  We're to blame. 
             
             God is omnipotent and allowed, not caused, angels' and humans' fall into selfishness.  He permissively included their fall in his overall plan so that he could show his grace (free acceptance) to those who would believe in Jesus, the God-man, as the way to God.  God did not create temptation or sin.  Satan and humans are completely responsible.  After all, God made everything and every person very good, according to Genesis 1 and 2. 
             
             I believe that both God's, Satan's, and humans' plans are all involved.  However, God overrules evil for the good of his people.  A perfect example is the story of Joseph in Genesis, where his brothers' jealousy and hatred, for which they were completely responsible, set off a chain of events that God used to enable Joseph to rise to second in the kingdom of Egypt.  God brought the good of deliverance of many people out of human evil, as Joseph said to his brothers in Genesis 50:19,20, "But Joseph said to them, 'Don't be afraid.  Am I in the place of God?  You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives....'"  Humans and the evil angels are fully responsible for evil, while God is completely good, allowing evil in order to turn it into good.
             
             You see, God is not a dominating, dictating ruler,  He made us with wills as his created persons.  As we accept him through Jesus by the Spirit's power, he accepts us inspite of all of our imperfections because of Jesus' perfection.  That's what I believe on the basis of the Bible.
             
             If you don't believe that Jesus fits the Old Testament picture of the Messiah, what passages are you referring to?  The Jews of his day didn't think so either, because they expected the Messiah to be an earthly ruler, not a suffering servant.  Both of those pictures are in the Old Testament.  How do you think that he doesn't fit the prophecies?  I'm curious.  I believe that he does, of course.

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       Dave Mathewsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Lucifer or Satan is an angelic creation of Almighty God. Lucifer or Satan became conceited believing himself to be equal to God in authority and sought to replace and overthrow God. He began a rebellion and gained followers.
       He was proven wrong and lost so he and his followers were banned from heaven and from God.

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   26. 59

       Mrs. J. B.posted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Okay I will give it a shot. Satan was God's favorite until he tried to take over, so yes God is the culprit because he kicked Satan out of heaven and sent him here to Earth.. LOL... Did I even make one bit of sense?

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   27. 53

       LoveWithinposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       Lucifer's DESIRE to be worshipped and become bigger than God caused him to commit the sin of pride within his free will..he was not tempted by anyone.
       
       James 1:13-15
       
       And remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, “God is tempting me.” God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else. Temptation comes from our own DESIRES, which entice us and drag us away. These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.

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          BuddiNsenseposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Who put the desire there?
          Why then in the bible it is god (Yahweh) and not Lucifer that demands worship and get jealous of not being worshiped?

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             oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

             Why do you ask who puts the desire there?  The verse quoted from the book of James shares that it is our own desires.  We aren't perfect like God.

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                BuddiNsenseposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                If god is behind everything, god is behind desire too.
                Desire arise because of manufacturing defect and the one who manufactured is responsible.

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       Yahwehsanswerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Randy you err because you do not know Yahweh's word in scripture and seem to have no understanding given by the Holy Spirit. It is no wonder you are at a loss for an answer. Even at that it seems assured even given a right answer you will not believe it because you are empty on the inside, meaning you are not Spirit filled. Satan (Lucifer) it is true was created by the Ancient of Days and he loved him as he loves all his creation. Lucifer as was his name betrayed that love and trust and opposed the almighty. Your summation no sin without temptation is completely wrong. There is no sin without the Law, that is a correct statement, that has escaped you. One can also sin willingly without any hint of a temptation for all kinds of reasons , for power, for glory, for love, for material gain anything one can imagine can be the driving force behind it. Lucifer was jealous and wanted what Yahweh had even though he did not earn or deserve it. Power and Glory it over came him. Yes and the mere fact he sinned is proof beyond any ones doubt that he did indeed have free will. It was a challenge to Yahweh's authority and Power, but for the time being he allowed it. Why you ask he was not destroyed outright, that too was Yahweh's great mind at work. Lucifer challenged the Almighty and begged the question if you are not a tyrant, and a liar destroying me will prove my accusation. So what to do. Yahweh allows Satan to interfere with mankind and do all he is able to do with of course limitations to his utter defeat and destruction. Our Lord Yeshua has defeated him and turned death thru disobedience into life everlasting from complete obedience. Now all the misery and suffering man and Messiah has endured will be the very measure that defeats Lucifer without Yahweh, the so called tyrant ever having to issue his destruction. Have you not read that believers will judge Angels and that includes Satan himself. His judgment was handed over to men, and thru all the thousands of years of anguish and torment Satan will be judged not by Yahweh's hand but by a created being just as Lucifer was. That judgment will be final and complete, when he Lucifer is cast into the lake of fire, and all his angels. Man, those who follow Messiah will be blessed and given eternal life that Satan gave up and he knows it. That is the reason for his hatred of mankind.   Let me give you something else to think about. I in no way condone this kind of belief, but if one believes and there is no Supreme God (Yahweh) when you die you have lost nothing except a few good time years. but if there is a Supreme and only one God (Yahweh) you have lost everything that in its self is pure common sense, not to hard to understand. But when you believe you must believe with all your heart soul and mind without any doubt, so be it. There is your answer, I pray that you are intelligent enough to see it. I wish you all the best Randy and may you fervently pray for understanding and be filled with The Holy Spirit and purged of all iniquities. I have already prayed for you !!

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       Planet Avenueposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       There is a very peculiar story in the book of Genesis about twin brothers.  The older being Esau and the younger being Jacob.  Jacob cheats his older brother by pretending to be him to take what was rightfully his. His birthright and his blessing from his father. 
       Perhaps this was a story about Lucifer and Jesus.

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   Jeramiposted 14 years ago

   Howdy!   SJW  and WOC  and again  to ya Randy.
   
    
   
     To take my previous answer just a little bit further;  Couldn't evil have been a necessity of Free will?
   
     By tempting Eve into using that free will, Satan would have been doing Gods will.
     BUT  the moment free will was exercised, evil was born.
     And as Adam blamed it all on Eve;  Eve followed suit and passed the blame on to Satan.   
      I'm wondering if Adam even saw the snake?

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      stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I'm wondering if Adam even saw the snake?
      
      No, he just saw Eve.  His temptation.  LOL
      
      I do see what your saying.  A need for an option, a choice.  How do ya know I have a good heart if I never have the opportunity to do wrong.

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         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         YET   how would even you know unless ya had an opportunity to find out?

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         Lisa HWposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         "have a good heart if I never have the opportunity to do wrong."
         
         I'm not sure I see that point as a "legitimate" one (respectfully, of course):
         
         I'd compare that reasoning to this:
         
         If you put an apple on your counter top for hours and hours, it won't go bad after a day.
         
         If you put ice cream out, it will first melt and then spoil.
         
         We don't need to ice cream to know that apples don't spoil the way ice cream or milk does.
         
         If there were no evil in the world we wouldn't have a name for it, and we may not even have a name for "good".  Still, what was harmless and kind and caring would still not be evil or anything that resembled it, or could be confused with it.
         
         A good heart is not going to be an evil heart, whether there's evil or no evil.

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      Lisa HWposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      and so misogyny and the general blaming of women for all kinds of evil was also born.   
      
      (Isn't it true that "The Word" (from a lot of religious teachings/books) is that Satan disguised himself to fool Eve, and then tempted her into disregarding what she'd been told as far as the rule went?    If that's how the story goes, aren't people supposed to believe what's written?

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         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         A man wrote (in scripture) that God said to put our faith in no man!
         
            SO; ...  are we supposed to have faith in the man that said that God said to have no faith any man ?

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            Lisa HWposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Hmm.  That's a good one.       I like the "have faith in no man" thing.  I also like having no faith in the man who said that God said "have faith in no man".  I like the "every man find his own way to his own beliefs" approach anyway.   

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               Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Seems like that is the safest thing to do.
               
               Thing is...  it seems that every truth has an equal but opposite truth. Depending upon what we are reading.   No it don't ...  and yet ??  It seems to?

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   brotheryochananposted 14 years ago

   and this is the problem to the satan belief. God does not create flawed anythings, including angels. Angels were created to obey God; servant staff, if you like. There is not one indication or instance of an angel showing any sort of free will at all. They are told to go and do and they go and do. No angel ever negotiates with God, they just do.
   It is my understanding that angels do NOT have free will and that free will was a reason God created man in the first place.
   For an angel to become full of pride and exalt itself above God is ridiculous, in my personal opinion.
   Since, it is purported that satan was an angel (or cherubium as isaiah 14 ascribes), satan could not have ever become puffed up with pride. Since angels do not have free will (and if you can show me where i am wrong in the BIBLE then plz email me) satan could not have become the demonic entity that christendom makes him out to be.
   We are talking just about one angel here, but let us also recall the 1/3 other flawed angels that were created by a flawless creator. And if these 1/3 just popped off one day and decided to rebel that indicates a measure of instability in Gods heaven and leaves us open to the thought that another 1/3 might just up and do the same. God takes no chances.

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      Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      _____________________
      Jude 1
      
      6. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
      
      7. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

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      bobbleheadedsamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      There is a flaw to your reasoning being if YOUR god is a flawless god, then why would Jesus say this: John 8:44 (King James Version)
      44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.? According to you, he must be lying, if God and Satan are in cahoots, and if Jesus is a lyer than God is certainly not flawless.

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         brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         lets read jude the way it is meant to be read:
         6. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
         
         angels as we know is either a minister of God - human or an actual angel. If we read this verse correctly the angels are reserved IN everlasting chains UNTO the judgment of the great day <-- which hasn't happened yet... so these angels are in chains bound until that day... which means they are not actively doing any thing to any one as they are bound... until the day of judgment...  This verse says nothing about satans fallen hoard tempting the masses because they are bound until the day of judgment.
         oh what a surprise.
         later on jude mentions the sons of korah of which this verse speaks specifically of.
         
         and lets look at john 8:44 (0f which i have a hub about) Satan was not the first murderer. Cain was the first murderer and then he lied about it. Shem married a woman from cains lineage and so carried on the lineage of cain. Satan is not allowed to murder so who could christ be talking about....
         
         really you need to analyse the scriptures before you comment on them.

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   Deborah Sextonposted 14 years ago

   All temptations come from within our own selves
   
   
   James 1:13-14
   Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man
   But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed

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      Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      No Satan in your world, huh Debbie?  Men tempt themselves?  Hmmm and I thought it was those scantily clad ladies tempting me!  Well, something different anyway!

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         mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

         infatuation?

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            Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Wow! You are good!  That was her pole dancing name!

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               mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

               yeah n everthang

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         Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         satan is something/someone to blame

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            mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            no bailey, when we do wrong, we are held accountable. Why would you want to blame someone for your wrong doings?
            
            satan has a job. his job is to instill doubt and fear  and to seek steal and destroy.
            
            God gave him power over the earth. he has the ability to ruin peoples minds, and so much more but he does not have the power to take a life.

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               Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               What scripture tells us this?

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                  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Do you really want to know or are you just being silly?

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                     Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     I am not a silly snake!  Ha!  I would like to know, if it is plainly written in a few verses of scripture  But if this is merely your interpretation of vague subjective scripture, do not bother.
                     
                     Tennessee?  That was my second guess!  I knew you were from somewhere in the bible belt.  WOC seems afraid to tell me if she is from the belt!
                     
                     Thanks!

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                        mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Im actually a ga girl,
                        
                        But as to the scripture, its in there.

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                           Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           Ha!  Thanks, Mom!  That was my first guess!  Perhaps I do have super powers!  LOL!

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                              habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              All hail to Super Snake! Do you have a cape and tights??

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                                 Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 But of course!  Unfortunately, Beth won't let me wear them anywhere but the bedroom!
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                                     SuperSnake

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                                    habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    Just watch out for the ceiling fan, Booger!

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                                       mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       habee, at least this one has a sense of humor.

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                                       Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       I always incorporate the ceiling fan in my activities.  This brings a new meaning to the phrase "let's give it a whirl"!

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                                    mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    randy, you farm?

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                                       Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       Yes Mom, all my life!  But I am hanging up my overalls after this terrible year.  For several years now I have worked other jobs to support my farming hobby,mostly trying to make the family farm support itself. 
                                       
                                       But I am tired of working my butt off for nothing, so the farm will be leased out to my cousins for growing cotton.  Now I might actually have time to enjoy fishing and hunting on the farm instead of being too tired to do so!

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                                          habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          Randy, I'm so glad you made this decision. You've been killing yourself for little return. Maybe you'll be in a better mood now! lol
                                          
                                          As for science, I agree that the earth is A LOT older than a few thousand years.

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                                          habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          And don't forget about fishing at ABTS! We need to do some sheepshead fishin' this winter.

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                                             Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                             Ready when you are!

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                                       mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       wasn't being nosey, just wondering if the monsanto had any effect on your business.

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                                          Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          I don't mind your asking at all, Mo.  ( I feel strange calling you Mom, mind if I call you M0?)  No, no problem with Monsanto, just the crop buyers squeezing out us small farmers like has been going on for years. 
                                          
                                          Big business will eventually produce all of the food we eat.  Poor us, you will see what I mean in a few years.  Every one will, for that matter.  I will still grow a large garden for my veggies and we still have some cattle.  So I will eat well!

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                                       mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       dang, had to hunt a reply button,
                                       
                                       Morning everyone  it is snowing here (flurrying actually)
                                       
                                       Randy, my name is Shelia. I am a nut but not a mo:)
                                       
                                       I grew up living off the land. It was such a good time. we kids moaned and complained about having to pick beans or pull corn or string up some leather britches but we had a blast. Simple, clean fun. Respect. You better know it.
                                       
                                       But this business about the seed co wanting a monopoly, it is just wrong on so many levels,  I understand, their patent on cotton seeds etc being more convienient. But, that's what's killing us. (my opinion). If nothing else, it cuts down on exercise.
                                       
                                       I've always been a trusting person. This deal, it is making me wonder. Little by little it appears we are becoming communist. I pray that my thoughts are wrong. Something aint right.
                                       
                                       I used to help papah at hog (day). He thought I'd be skimish. No, but it taught respect on a natural level.
                                       
                                       Granny doctored us from the land as well. We hardly ever got sick. Now, kids stay sick.
                                       
                                       I wish I had written down much more than I did. But I am thankful for the knowledge I learned. Many people think we will return to those days. I am beginning to think it is possible.
                                       
                                       But, do-able

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                                          Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          Sounds like you learned a lot on the farm, Mom! (I see you don't like Mo)  I don't worry much about us becoming communists, but rather too capitalist.  Actually we are already.  Big businesses have controlled the farmers for a long time.  This is nothing new.
                                          
                                          I'm glad most of you don't have to see where your food comes from, mostly the meat you eat.  If you could see the conditions the animals live in and the foods they are being given, you might become vegans.
                                          
                                          I believe there are only two main companies controlling the poultry industry now.  Nothing communist about them, pure greed is their motive.  The pork and beef industry will eventually become the same. 
                                          
                                          Vegetable produce providers get very little for their crops, just enough to make a small profit on their work.  Far, far, less than the prices you see in the stores.  A large part of the vegetables grown by them simply rot in the fields when the prices are too low for the farmers to make a profit.  Sad to see all of that food go to waste.
                                          
                                          Ah well, it is what it is!

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                                             habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                             Not to mention the conditions in most slaughterhouses!
                                             
                                             Most consumers have no idea how little farmers/ranchers get for the "raw products."

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                                                Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                                Correct, they never look past the frozen food aisle!

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                                    mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    you are correct. If we were to stop and think, we likely would turn from our meaty ways. But now, when we used to put up beef, golly ned, it sure was good. Don't get that taste no where else.
                                    
                                    Wish there was something that we could do. But education holds the key. Education on sustainability, it should be a requirement for graduation from high school.
                                    
                                    Sorry I deviated from the topic, it just seems pressing.
                                    
                                    Yep, convienence. (I know, it aint spelled right) but im eating.

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                        Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Randy, I am not from the bible belt, and I am not afraid to tell you anything It's none of your business where I live.

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                           Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           Well gosh!  I must have touched a nerve, WOC!  If you had said that to begin with instead of ignoring my question, I wouldn't have had to ask more than once.  I really don't see how my asking whether you did or didn't live in the bible belt could annoy you, but sorry I asked!
                           
                           It's not like it narrows it down to where I could find you or anything!  Duh!

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                              habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              I dunno, RD - remember, you ARE Super Snake!

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                                 Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 As a kid I took 3 snakes down my shirt to keep me cool in the summer.
                                 
                                 Snake can love like people, yet never met a talking snake, what are they like, any one...?

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                                    Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    Good idea!  I always keep one in my pants!

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                                       Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       That friendly, but dangerous one eye snake

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                                          Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          Only when I wink!

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                                       habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       That friendly boa constrictor??

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                                       mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       OMG

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                                          Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          C'mon Mom!  Get your mind out of the gutter!  It was a
                                          "garter" snake!  lol!

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                                       mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       yeah ok:)

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                              Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              Randy, You didn't touch a nerve   I am not concerned about you finding me. Where I live does not have nothing to do with the topic of this thread. No hard feelings.

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               Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               so you're saying satan is omnipresent?

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         Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         _____________
         In Hebrew, Satan means adversary.
         We are tempted by our own lusts, and nothing more. When we take control of our thoughts we can not be tempted.
         
         When a woman is raped, it is not her fault or the short skirt she wore, it is her rapers fault, when his lusts tempted him.

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            Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I sort of agree with you on this.  But unless you agree there are degrees of temptation, this doesn't work!  The same scantily clad lady could be wearing Muslim garb and would not cause the same amount of temptation to the "rapers."
            
            Unless of course, you don't think ladies dress in a certain way to attract males!

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               Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I think that situation is more like when you go fishing..bait your hook with a large minnow hoping to catch a largemouth bass and come up with a cotton mouth water snake.

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               mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

               We are not to provoke.

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                  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Temptation is the same as provocation, no?

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                     mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     It is in Tn

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            Daniel Carterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            That's only partly true. In SOME cases, not all, just some, the woman is putting out a vibe that she is sexual and wanting it badly. Yes, the rapist is responsible for his/her actions. And so is that woman who puts out that vibe. (The same would be true for a guy putting out a sexual vibe.)
            
            Two wrongs don't make a right.

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               ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Hi Daniel, it is very tricky what you're saying. But I agree about vibe. A rapist homes in on someone that matches his intent. He is not going to victimize someone who sends a vibe of i'm difficult to victimize. Abusers choose who they victimize and there is actually a profile for rape victims. They are usually victimized already in their own lives in some way.
               
               It doesn't excuse the behavior I agree, but a rape victim was a rape victim long before the rape. The idea is, if you are mentally and emotionally raped, you do not have the protective stamina to ward off rape before it happens.
               
               it's tricky but yes. I get you.

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               Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               __________
               It is still in each person's power to resist their urges.
               
               Are you saying being alluring is on the same level as raping someone?
               Or that she asked for it?
               
               "I'm a man, I couldn't help it"
               Give me a break.

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                  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Are you saying women are never temptresses?

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      jacobkuttytaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      That is great

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   sandra rinckposted 14 years ago

   Shall I state the obvious?

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      Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Please, leave my fantasy guessing

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   jacobkuttytaposted 14 years ago

   Surely I didn't

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      Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Maybe you’re right 
      
      Shouldn’t worship anyone or thing had doesn’t give enough answers anyways.

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   habeeposted 14 years ago

   RD, I was just wondering...why do you capitalize "Satan" but not "god"? I know you don't believe in a supreme being, but if not, you couldn't believe in Satan, either. So why capitalize one and not the other? Are you secretly a devil-worshipper?? I'm tellin'!!!!
   
   I don't know the answer to your question. When I get to Heaven, I'll ask for ya! I don't pretend to have all the answers to the mysteries of the universe. I kinda like a good mystery!
   
   I do believe that what we think of as "good" cannot exist without evil and temptation. For example, if you lived on an island all by yourself, with nothing but fresh water and fish, you wouldn't indulge in stealing, murder, lying, adultery, or drunkeness. Does that mean you're a good person? Not necessarily - it means you didn't have the opportunity to be "bad."
   
   Go read John Milton!

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   habeeposted 14 years ago

   God created evil, perhaps so that His creations would have free choice. If He created evil, like the Bible says, then Lucifer would have been exposed to it. Evidently the "morning star" was weak and could not resist the temptation of evil.

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      Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Randy stated earlier he doesn’t believe in god or Satan.
      
      Theistic Satanists believe in God and Jesus and oppose them. They believe in the devil and worship it as an actual spiritual entity. Devil worshipers believe mainly in freedom from God

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         habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Did you mean to quote my other post - the one asking Randy if he was a devil worshipper? I know RD isn't. I've known him for almost 40 years. He's agnostic. AND agnoxious! lol (private joke)

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            Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Oh! Old buddies.
            
            DId not know he was an agnoxious
            
            I thought he was just pushy like me

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            Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            agnoxious - I like that!

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   TooEasyposted 14 years ago

   Wait, so what you're saying is... Sarah Palin's an idiot.

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      Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Sometimes I get Satan and politic mix up.
      
      I think you want other place

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    Stevennix2001posted 14 years ago

    Brendan Frasier from "Bedazzled":  DAMN THE DEVIL!  DAMN THE DEVIL TO HE!! 

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    pennyofheavenposted 14 years ago

    I rarely say this to anyone, I may be a mystic. Sshh One who thrives to come closer to god.
    
    You are very talented with words, my success has been expressed through visual arts and traveling, not enough practice with writing English.
    
    Most people want me to take sides, and they think mystics are religious. When I'm really spiritual sided rather than religious and see god in everyone. God is just a word it’s the behavior of love, led by healthy spirit and imagination that really matters.
    
    Religion can seems like the fight club with many contradicting words that I don't understand how it flows. Some how it works, it’s just that I feel we can all do much better than live in the pass with mid evil time consciousness.
    ....................................................................................................................................
    Castlepaloma,
    
    Got kicked off the side of the page again and couldn't find a reply button. But here it is.
    
    So mystic I must be for the moment, because everything you say is as I see it too.
    
    Thanks for the clarification! Oh and for the kind comments about the talent I didn't know I had.

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       Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I'm no writer, but only going on your comments in your hubs. Considering such a short time on this forum, you can smoothly move the beginning and end of your stories and easily capture an audience.
       
       From a profession artist view you have a natural flow and simplified like a world class artist.
       
       If you took on the work ethic, logistics and business side, with some luck.
       you're be having a writing career. 
       
       The Mystics men and women are full with great masters in the history books.

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          pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          You are too kind. Thanks!

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    luabuposted 14 years ago

    Hi All or should i say High All
    have i stumbled into the in-house opium den
    or maybe this is an in-hub wind up to catch gobaloons like me
    
    its definately not a serious conversation
    if it is i'm going to start locking my house at night
    Luabu says hi/high whatever

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    thirdmilleniumposted 14 years ago

    Even a lowly worm has its free will. I sees, decides, gets tempted, rejects, gets cautious etc
    Can't we grant Satan same things?

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       Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I disagree!  Worms act merely on instinct!  I've never noticed one protest being put on a fish hook!

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          thirdmilleniumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          So the point here is the same. Instinct manifests itself as dissent

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             Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             I'm not sure instinct and dissent can be lumped together in this case. Fright may be instinctual to some primitive creatures, but dissent is an act of conscious disagreement! IMO!

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          Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          _________
          This I agree with. Only humans have COMPLETE free will

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14. 61

    Jeramiposted 14 years ago

    DoubleScorpion wroe ...
       so i would have to agree that the "devil" is in fact us fighting against ourselves between doing what is "good" and what is "bad". Although it is my humble opinion that what is good or bad has been determined by "man" and not necessarily "god"
    
    - - - - -
    
       I have t agree.   i do wonder though ... If  the creative power our minds when gathered together  might generate enough  negative energy that it manifest itself in a person that is willing to accept it. 
       Thus becoming an evil person. 
       Again I think evil is a condition of the mind.

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       DoubleScorpionposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       The Mind is a very powerful thing...If you concentrate hard enough on something you can cause it to manifest... if you go around thinking that the world "sucks" then of course you will only "see" the things that are wrong with the world. Just think...1/3 of the world believes beyond all doubts that a unseen "god" created the whole world in just 6 days in spite of what science can prove, instead of conceding the fact that maybe what the "supreme" calls a day and what we humans call a day is two different things...

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          Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          What this God may call a day could mean any amount of time depending upon the circumstances.
             If a thing that we call God created all things, He/She/IT created every dimension of time and space.
             Sharing in all things of his creation, he would be a part of ALL.  He would not be imprisoned within his creations! including our understanding of TIME.
          
             This would be why when God tells a creature from one dimension to deliver a message to us ...
          (Gabriel to Daniel for instance)  Gabriel was referring to HIS reference of TIME.   Thus  62 of Gabriels weeks as he understood time; was the same period of time as approx 568 of our years.
          
             In my opinion, it is the refusal to accept this, that has caused "THE  MISTORY" of prophesy.
            And when we misunderstand this concept ...  all understanding of the message of scripture is lost.
          
             But as they say;  this is just my opinion.

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          Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          My thinking too, DS!  One may convince themselves of anything if it is dwelt upon enough.  Especially if there are others of like mind to bolster one's imagination.  It's called mass hypnosis!
          
          Thinking a deity is communicating with you is a common religious occurrence noted in many present and past cults.  Unfortunately, this causes the victim to believe they are specially chosen because others do not suffer the same delusion.  Examples of this may be found throughout these forums and all across the planet.

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15. 0

    sandra rinckposted 14 years ago

    Randy, do you sleep? Just wondering because I was here last night, I already went to bed and have woken up and you are still here.   
    
    Get's some rest bub, they will still be here tomorrow or in a few hours.

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       Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Certainamente, Sandy! Six hours of snoozing and I am good to go!  I knew this question would get a variety of answers, but it even surprised me with the different opinions given by those with various beliefs.
       
       I think it may even have educated the believers about a subject not often heard or discussed in their various churches.  And that is a good thing!

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16. 66

    Daniel Carterposted 14 years ago

    According to scripture, it was emnity and pride which Satan succumbed to. Which, if you think about it, really means that we are all susceptible to such things, and we don't need a devil to succumb. Such traits are a part of us just as other better traits of love and doing well.
    
    Makes you wonder if Satan really exists, or whether we just tap into our dark side. I'm thinking more of the latter. Every time you believe that Satan has tempted you, you also believe you don't have to be responsible for your thoughts and actions. Satan made you do it instead. Just doesn't add up, IMO.

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       Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Agreed, Daniel! But Satan is the tempter in many christian cults. You may see evidence of it on these forums as I have been accused of promoting Satan or being used by him to cause strife among the believers.
       
       Simply a way for some to put the blame on anyone but themselves concerning things in their bible which do not make sense to a logical mind!  A convenient scapegoat for them!

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    sandra rinckposted 14 years ago

    Thought I would join in the theological discussion.
    
    Most "believers" would agree that Jesus was present in the garden along with god.  Their saying is that the "we" in Genesis was Jesus and God.  God creating himself for himself, through himself, his spirit was there. Follow so far?
    
    In the garden wrapped around the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the mystery serpent. 
    
    God tells Adam and Eve not to eat the forbidden fruit or die. 
    We can assume Adam and Eve are about as knowledgeable as a newborn baby.  In that sense, yes they were perfect.
    
    So, Eve eats the forbidden fruit, the apple of Adam's eye. 
    The Serpents says, go ahead surly you will not die.  (sound familiar at all?)
    
    Later God gets angry because they did what they did and banishes them from the garden, they don't even get the chance to repent.  After all, now they know what they did was wrong but it doesn't seem to matter that they had no idea before it happened.
    
    Thousands of years later, here comes Jesus with the same promise.  This bread is my body, accept me and you will not die.
    
    The "theo-logical" conclusion that can be drawn from this is that the Serpent was Satan. 
    
    After God finds out about their "devilish" fiasco, he then puts enmity between man and woman.  The Serpent is cursed to be on its' belly and woman are cursed with birthing pains.   
    
    "They" say that Satan is the tempter, the deceiver, the liar, the "shape shifter" (in some cases), and Jesus says that the "ruler of the world is Satan".  He also says, "good, why do you call me good, I am not good."
    
    When Jesus leaves his peeps, he bids them farewell he says, "in those times, you will call me but I will not come for the ruler of this world is Satan".
    
    Any takers on the "theo-logical" discussion.

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       Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       God surely set them up!  Even mortals know not to tell a female "you may have anything but this"!  LOL!  Like saying "sic em to a dog," as my dad used to say!
       
       But what is the point of running a predetermined scenario, especially for an omnipotent deity?  Bored, was he?

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          sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          lol, funny.  I was actually leaning towards the Sumarian mythology.  Their goddess was a mother/serpent and predates all Biblical and Greek mythology and Egyptian mythology.
          
          
          
          Now this comes from about 10,000 years ago.  The Sumerian were the 'inventors' of complex math, beer (thank woman for that!) the wheel etc.

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             Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             But Sandra, the world is not yet 10,000 years old, according to many christians!  LOL!
             
             One of the things which really makes me dislike the christian religion is its adamant disbelief in the true age of this planet.  Their adamant refusal to use the knowledge which "their" god gave them hurts their beliefs more than any threat other religions pose! 
             
             Adamant refusal of knowledge is not a godly trait and hurts the christian faith much more than the threat from other beliefs or religions.  Accepting ignorance in lieu of facts is not a godly trait!

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                Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                The first sculptures of the world were thought to be those of obese women, the most famous being the Venus of Willendorf, which is 28000 years old, some claim as old as 40,000 years of other Venus sculptures were made.
                
                Geneses: first created Earth only 6000 years ago, according to hub I wrote on the Creation Museum.
                
                Satan more exciting to talk about, than to talk about earliest ancient times of art and culture for most.

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                   Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Bishop Ussher was the individual who claimed to tally up the years often used for christians to use as a time line reflecting the age of the earth.  October 23, 4004 B.C. was the date he claimed the earth was created.
                   
                   
                   6014 years have passed since creation, many christian's believe.  They do not trust modern science dating methods because of this primitive calculation and because their church leaders are ignorant of modern scientific methods. 
                   
                   They use many other scientifically based  machines and medical cures in their daily lives, but for some reason they think the scientists are trying to spoil their religious beliefs.  To what end, one may ask?

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          DoubleScorpionposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Reading Genesis Chapter 2:15-18.. god told Adam (the man) not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge or of the Tree of Life.. Eve was made from the Rib until after this happened...and Adam and Eve was removed from the Garden because as god puts it in Genesis Chapter 3:22
          " New International Version (©1984)
          And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
           
            King James Bible
          And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

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             Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             I can only take from this that god was tempted to do evil too, otherwise, he would not know evil himself, nor its causes.  Sounds like there was more than one god in the picture!

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                DoubleScorpionposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                i would agree...

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       pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Perhaps….
       
       The tree of knowledge of good and evil is more of a metaphor for the “mind” the mind that houses the ego. The metaphor for the ego is the serpent. The mind has the ability to act or create based on your free will.
       
       The fruits the tree (of knowledge of good and evil) brings forth are the thoughts, the ideas of the mind and the actions that usually result from these thoughts and ideas. We can bear good or evil fruits but that decision remains with the bearer of these fruits.
       
       Dwelling in Gods presence was Adam and Eve’s original state of being. By choosing to listen to her ego (the serpent) and partake of the fruits of the mind. Eve experienced a spiritual death. A shutting down if you will, (if only in part) of her awareness of GOD. Adams choice to partake in Eve’s fruit was also of the mind resulting in him losing his awareness also.
       
       The suffering that this spiritual death brings is the suffering that is caused by the mind. The passions of the ego that are not fulfilled, that therefore binds us to the things of this world and to the things of our minds.
       
       We continue to be affected by the “original sin”  today largely because man has chosen not to let go of the passions of the mind. What we teach our children is therefore teaching them the original sin (passions of the mind) and the cycle continues.
       
       For sure the mind is part of who we are and was part of Adam and Eve; the usage of it however is different when you dwell in the presence of GOD.

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    habeeposted 14 years ago

    I was born into a Christian home to Christian parents. (Actually, as Presbyterians, I'm not sure all the Southern Baptists considered us Christians.) As an adult, especially when I was in college, I researched several other religions, from Taoism to Messianic Judaism. I found many recurring themes among them all, but Christianity just felt "right" for me - probably at least partially because I was brought up with it, so it was familiar to me. I'll admit that. I'll also say that I'm thankful that I was reared in a Christian home. If I'd had loving Muslim parents, perhaps I'd have been a Muslim and would have been happy to have been brought up in a Muslim home. Who knows?
    
    Of course, everyone doesn't follow the faith of his parents. Take you, for instance, Randy. I don't believe either of your parents was "agnoxious." lol

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       Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Sure, not everyone follows the beliefs of their parents, but I would say the likelihood of this being the case is very high!  So then we are at the point of wondering if where one is born affects if they choose correctly or not, if one believes there is a correct choice.
       
       We do not choose what religious environment we are born into.  This decision belongs to our parents.  Choosing the wrong faith, if there is such a thing, could merely be a matter of birth.  Free will goes out the window in such a case!

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          habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Actually, I kinda agree with that. You sound very Presbyterian - you know, predestination and all. lol
          
          As adults, however, most people still have the choice to change religions if they wish, or to abstain from religion completely. I think your situation proves that point.

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             Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Since I do not believe in an all powerful deity, I have no belief in predestination!  Just giving the example of how being born in different places and having different parents plays a larger role in one's choice of faith than the religion itself!
             
             After one has been indoctrinated into a particular belief it is difficult to really see the other faiths through an unbiased eye.  If not, the beliefs of those in certain countries would be more equal in numbers.

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                habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Duh! Yeah, the predestination line was a joke, RD. I was refuting your claim that if you're "born into" a religion, free will is taken away. It's not, and you're the perfect example.
                
                I admitted that one's parents' religion has a big impact on your religion, however. Free will doesn't completely "go out the window," as you stated.

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                   Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   I didn't mean it was impossible to change religions or to refute that which one is most exposed to. Similar to those being brought up in an English speaking country and choosing to prefer another language than that learned at birth.  Of course, one can learn many languages, just an example.

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    DoubleScorpionposted 14 years ago

    Since the Topic of this Thread is "Who Tempted Satan"...I would like to add my 2 cents... I think Satan's/Lucifer's ( or whatever you wish to call him/her/it) temptation was Man. Satan saw that Man was favored over the Angels in spite of the faults of Man and this cause him to become jealous. He wanted to be the one favored the most, he was after all the "Anointed One". And just like a spoil child today he threw a fit, challenged God, and got his backside beat because of it. He was put into "Time out" on earth and not allowed back into Heaven. He was still miffed and decided to see if he could corrupt Man (the whole marriage to the daughters of man fiasco) and that was the unforgivable crime that got him a permanent ticket to the "woodshed". And that is just my little spin on it...

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       Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Makes as much sense as any other theory, DS!  But I'm sure some would disagree.

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    DoubleScorpionposted 14 years ago

    I was raised a very strict Christian religion...but once i got old enough to read and understand for myself. i found way to many faults within Christian based religion and the bible itself. I still hold myself to a high moral standard, but i cannot believe something that varies that much. I cannot understand how that all Christians blindly hold to the "proof of the bible" as the only Truth. But yet most of them have no understanding or knowledge of it...and if you use the Bible to defend your beliefs for not being Christian then you are mis-interpreting the Bible. And Don't dare to say the Bible has contradictions...LOL...that just causing all kinda of strife and hatred...

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       Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I was raised by parents who attended a Baptist church!  Even at a young age I didn't believe in the bible but was coerced into joining the church by a minister worried by his lack of recruits.  He feared for his job unless he could gather more sheep to his flock.  They booted him anyway! LOL!
       
       Since then, I have met very few "men of god" who I could respect.  Most simply like to hear themselves speak and love the power they have over the congregation.  The majority of them are very low in the intelligence department when it comes to anything other than their religion!  Some are even bad at that role also!

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          Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Just wanted to say, what I have read, is a very intresting topic and comments.
          
              I'm goina hide and watch.    Thanks.

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             Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             No need to hide, Jerami!  As you have seen, there are many different opinions about this one topic.  It simply shows that no one really has a better grasp of the bible than anyone else, despite some folks claims to the contrary.
             
             This is what causes such strife on these forums from time to time.  Those who feel THEY know what's morally right and condemn others for not having the same mindset, get the maddest!

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                Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                True
                
                Many can get offended, if you don't have the same mind set.

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    Randy Godwinposted 14 years ago

    Toodle Doo, spammer!

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22. 52

    DianaETXposted 14 years ago

    Lucifer was made the most beautiful being in creation.  He was told this and he believe it was so.  He decided he was going to be like and above GOD. 
    
    He accrued followers who believed in him and wanted him to rule too.  His was the first sin, pride.  From this sin he continued to build upon his mistakes.
    
    GOD knew and knows everything.  He put man on the earth knowing in advance he would sin.  HE allowed this to happen as it was part of HIS divine plan.  HE could have made us into automatons that did what HE ordered.  HE wanted HIS children to choose HIM and to love HIM.
    
    We are so self centered as humans we think this is all about us, but it is not, HE made us for HIM.  GOD is spirit and we cannot see HIM.  HE wanted us to know HIM and so history (HIS story) began.
    
    People in the 1800's for the most part believed in the creation.  A group of scientist got together and named the different periods used now by science.  They gave these periods arbitrary year ranges of millions of years.  If you publish this as fact, those who don't know any better will believe something as fact.  This same system of science and history is being used today.  Keep telling a lie until it is believed as truth.
    
    People with original thought and who have a theory other than the status quo are losing their jobs and tenure in colleges and have been for years.  This is happening continuously in archeology, astronomy, biology, etc.
    
    Satan is alive and well today.  He is at work in cloning research where governments throughout this world are trying to combine man with animals, animals with other animals, and genetic engineering to create a man with robotic parts to build the super soldier.  Others are trying to design weapons of mass destruction in the form of germ warfare and bio agents that will wipe out an entire racial profile.
    
    The acceleration of evil in this world is visible, just take a look around.

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       Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Spoken like a true believer!  You need to quit using the internet, you know!  It is Satan's playground!  If you truly have no more confidence in scientific knowledge, then quit taking advantage of it!
       
       Now I know how Dubya got elected!

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          habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          The internet is an inanimate object and is neither good nor evil. It can be used as a vehicle for good or evil, however.
          
          Don't be joshin' 'bout brimstone, RD! I don't wanna be among the fires - I prefer Heaven. It seems that you've gone from agnostic to atheist?

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             Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Ah, but without science the internet does not exist, Holle!  The reply was to DianeTex, who thinks science is trying to undermine her religion and the world. 
             
             It kills me how those who are so against the findings of today's scientific studies regarding the age of the earth have no problem using the internet, medicine, transportation, and other modern conveniences.  More pick and choose believers!  LOL!
             
             Nope, still agnostic!  But choosing the lake of fire is much more preferable than spending eternity with many self proclaimed christians.  Sad to say!

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                DianaETXposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                I didn't say all science is bad.  I said science has theories they don't want changed or contested.
                
                The Internet is the information super highway and is based on mathematics, not science.
                
                
                "It kills me how those who are so against the findings of today's scientific studies regarding the age of the earth have no problem using the internet, medicine, transportation, and other modern conveniences.  More pick and choose believers!  LOL!"
                
                I don't think you've died YET. LOL!
                
                There are plenty of scientist who believe in the young earth age who can't get published in the top science magazine because they findings are against the status quo.
                
                I have no problem driving a car, or using any modern conveniences.  You take a delight in spouting nonsense over one statement and stretch it into the whole of science and technology. 
                
                Why don't you tell us what you do believe instead of running down others in their belief.  You asked the question not because you really wanted to know what people believe, but so you could try to run them down and make them swallow your vitriol.
                
                You asked the question who tempted satan?  Why did you ask?  Since you clearly don't believe in GOD.  How on earth could you believe there is a satan.
                
                So the balls in your court, sir.

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                   Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Sorry to take so long to respond, just noticed your post.
                   
                   "I didn't say all science is bad.  I said science has theories they don't want changed or contested."
                   
                   Which theories are these and why would science not want them changed?  Do you have a link to this from a reputable source?
                   
                   
                   
                   "The Internet is the information super highway and is based on mathematics, not science."
                   
                   Try building a computer out of wood.  The components are science based materials obtained by much research and experimentation by SCIENTISTS.  No computers, no internet.
                   
                   
                   
                   "There are plenty of scientist who believe in the young earth age who can't get published in the top science magazine because they findings are against the status quo."
                   
                   Apparently you do not understand how science works.  Consensus among the top scientists determines who gets published in the top science magazines.  Why would a magazine wish to publish the articles of those which do not agree with the consensus?
                   Scientists work hard to verify or disprove theories.  There is no agenda to disprove the bible.  What purpose would it serve?
                   
                   
                   
                   "I have no problem driving a car, or using any modern conveniences.  You take a delight in spouting nonsense over one statement and stretch it into the whole of science and technology."
                   
                   No, just as I stated earlier, you pick and choose which science you agree with.  Nonsense is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.  lol!
                   
                   
                   
                   "Why don't you tell us what you do believe instead of running down others in their belief.  You asked the question not because you really wanted to know what people believe, but so you could try to run them down and make them swallow your vitriol."
                   
                   I believe what I know, not what I don't know.  Nowhere in any of these forums will you find me stating there is no god!  Nor will you find me saying there isn't one either!  I am agnostic, not atheist.  I cannot make myself believe something when I see no evidence for it.  I ask questions to find out why others believe as they do.  Quoting scripture from the bible doesn't do it for me.  And goddunit doesn't either.  Just the way whoever made me, I suppose.  Sorry!

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       DoubleScorpionposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       *** 1. (This sounds like a certain book that will remain nameless)
       
       *** 2. (Seems I remember reading that Jesus said something similar to " Don't worry about anything, just believe in and follow me and it will be provided" Jesus was an original thinker and he was killed for his troubles and he told his Disciples that they would be put into prison, harassed and persecuted for his namesake. So I guess to preserve our own well being we are to go with the flow and disregard our personal convictions and blindly follow everyone else.
       
       *** 3. (While i don't agree with certain things either...I don't blame them on satan...I don't blame things that i don't like or disagree with on the works or influence of satan. Would I blame my stealing of $5 from someone on my brother or friend or on my enemies? No!! I made the decision to steal the $5... No one forced me to do it... I am the one to blame.
       
       *** 4. I agree that there is "evil" in the world...and it will continue to be there as long as people have disagreements and are not willing to "love" each other in spite of our differences

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23. 0

    luabuposted 14 years ago

    i can't believe this is still going
    i was here 11 hrs ago
    pass me the ganga/it must be great stuff
    maybe i've fallen into the trash folder of hub pages and the thing to do here is to make a connection between the posts
    please some one tell me/i want to play join the trash
    thomas the unbeleiver

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       Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Come on in, the brimstone's fine!

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          luabuposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          you funny funny man randy

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             Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             RD
             
             220 post within 24 hours, that is almost 10 post an hour. wow,
             
             Satan controls a lot

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                Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                I wonder if he tempted me to ask the question?  He is good for blaming things on, though!  Flip Wilson thought so too!

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24. 84

    habeeposted 14 years ago

    I baked a big batch of made-from-scratch Toll House cookies. Who wants one?

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       Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Holle Abee bought some butter
       
       Which she put into her batter
       
       But the batter turned out bitter
       
       So she bought some better butter
       
       And she put this in her batter
       
       And the batter turned out better
       
       So twas better Holle Abee
       
       Bought a bit o' better butter
       
       
       
                                       SnakeSmear

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          habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          LOL!!!!

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25. 0

    luabuposted 14 years ago

    ye's are starting to flag/flog here a bit
    won't make the tower of Babel working like this
    heres some cookies i made earlier
    my version of the seven days of creation
    get stuck in
    i'll be back in another 11 hours and i expect empty plates
    
    At cockcrow last Monday morning
    Evan was on the ball early
    Sold all his old bows and arrows
    
    Tuesday night he's out moon gazing
    Shine back at me y'a wee beauty
    This works as good as a mirror
    
    Wednesday he was up to his neck
    Chatting with Aphrodite and
    Romping at the Baths with Psyche.
    
    Thursday he came up with a God
    From his own image and likeness
    It was good,he kept it ages
    
    Friday was a date with Xetal
    Finding himself in her lustre.
    He whip'd her off to the sin bin.
    
    Saturday stayed in by himself.
    Sensing that cloning was safer
    He really didn't feel bothered
    
    Sunday and Evan lies knackered
    Loving himself has him shattered
    All shot to hell like his arrows.
    __________________
    Thomas

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    habeeposted 14 years ago

    RD, you should get more for your cattle since it's "free range."

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       Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I usually do!  The buyers can look at them and tell they are healthy and not pen raised animals.  These cattle have plenty of pasture and forest to wander and feed on.  Unusual for these days.

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    ralwusposted 14 years ago

    Randy, take a look at Lebron James. I think Satan was a spoiled brat just like that.

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       Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Not a fan of basketball, no shortage of spoiled brats these days!  Much of it is our own fault for elevating these sports figures to such heights.  Not just sports figures either!

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          Pearldiverposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          What Cool Score RG....
          Wow....You Must Be a STAR
          
          BTW... Excellent opening question mate!
          
          Good to C ya out'nbout there Charlie..

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             Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Thanks PD!  Wish I knew why I got it!
             
             I am a legend in my own mind! lol!  Just mine, though!
             
             
             
             I figured this question would allow everyone to chime in with their own particular viewpoints!  Lots of different slants on the villain in this long running series!  I hope it has a surprise ending.

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                Daniel Carterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                The surprise will be that there is no Satan. Satan is a symbol for the dark side of every human being, which has no exceptions.
                
                You can argue that all day among believers and nonbelievers, but when you finally get to that place inside you and see it for what it is, Satan never existed.

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                   ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Hmm... since the human body and brain was created by the forces of the universe replicating its own process (and this is an actual scientific theory, meaning there is math and data supporting it)
                   I would assume that the larger macrocosm has some version of it. Only that it is not evil, it is only opposing creative and expansive forces. It is a check and balance to slow down the creative forces.

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                      Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      Can you provide this theory and the supporting math and data?

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                      Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      Hmmm... looks like yet another vacuous claim. No theory, math or data is forthcoming.

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                         luabuposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         beelzes dad /please get with the programme
                         theory math and data ? down here?
                         that went out with the dark ages
                         have you never heard of a whim,a congecture,a folly,a flight of fancy maybe /no/ a conceit even?
                         back to the lab for you old fart/beelze will be starting to worry
                         you wouldn't happen to have some flammables tucked away somewhere
                         just asking/sit down before ya fall down

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                            Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                            Gosh, it sure would be nice to know what it was you were talking about.

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                   mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   As sure as there is a Heaven there is a satan.

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                   mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Daniel,This is my opinion.
                   
                   I would love to think there is no satan.  Just think about it, there would be no more temptation. It would be like the garden of eden, you know, before the fall.
                   
                   If there were no satan, there would have never been any temptation. Then or now.
                   
                   There is this one "religion" that claim theirs is the only true religion. They  refuse to believe in a satan. This group also claims only their "elect" will go to Heaven.
                   
                   Every person walking is tempted of something. That is satans job. he is the tempter.
                   
                   I take the bible as a lesson book, per say. The battle being fought is one that we can not see. It is a spiritual battle being fought by spiritual forces over WHAT?  Do we not have a spirit?
                   
                   We all have eternal life and we will all have an eternal home. The body is but a vessel. But the soul will go back to the Creator if  we have chosen Him as our Lord.
                   
                   Some people are afraid to admit to a satan or that there is a hell.

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                      seanorjohnposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      Honestly, read the day i swore on the bible.

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                         Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         I read your Hub, Senorjohn.  Interesting, but what does it have to do with this thread?  Am I missing something here?

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                      Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      Why would one admit to something they do not believe, Mom?  It is no different than if you admitted there was no god!  See what I mean?

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    ralwusposted 14 years ago

    I am not a fan either. But in these parts (Akron is just 30 minutes away) he was King. But I just never cared for the talented guy. Anyway, the comparison of him and Satan being elevated I think fits? See ya later. Got to git.

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    luabuposted 14 years ago

    is this the highway to hell or should i have turned of at the last exit
    that pearldiver guy looks scary/maybe i'm getting close
    luabu

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    Lisa HWposted 14 years ago

    Wow.  This Satan thread is still going.    For the last - what - two days, every time I've popped on the forums to see what might be here, this thread still seems to be going strong. 
    
    That Satan's quite the controversial guy.

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       pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Yep and hopefully Satan is thinking of retiring.

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31. 0

    luabuposted 14 years ago

    nope

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    Cagsilposted 14 years ago

    Who tempted Satan?
    
    Satan, like it's opposite- God, does not exist. Both are human concepts and nothing more. Each are used to describe "good" and "evil", other human concepts.

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33. 0

    kimberlyslyricsposted 14 years ago

    Not True, Cagsil tempts 'it' all the time, and I should know!
    
    

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    seanorjohnposted 14 years ago

    Temptation is something I know about. Satan is the same as us, he chose to sin. Read about the day I swore on the bible .

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    getitriteposted 14 years ago

    Love God...or else!

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    Lisa HWposted 14 years ago

    Last post:  3 minutes ago.  Again, I see that this thread has been going for two days straight now.   :lol 
    
    
    So, OK - I confess!!  I did it!!  I tempted Satan!!  It was in an another life.  I was under a lot of stress.   I couldn't stand the idea that a garden of eden would have all that great fruit in it, but there was the illogical rule that people weren't supposed to eat from that apple tree.  So - yes - I crept up in back of Satan, whispered in whatever kind of ears his form had at the time, and said, "Hey, Satan!  Do me a favor.  Go get old Evie, over there, to take a bite of an apple.  Somebody has to do something to make this garden a little more exciting and interesting than it is - and, you, "Satie," are just the one to be able to get old Evie to listen to you!!  Never mind about any consequences.  It will be well worth it, no matter what happens.  This place is a bore.  We can figure out how to make pizza and potato chips and forget about all that fruit anyway..."
    
    Oh, by the way...
    
    I was a leprechaun in that previous life.  Who'd have imagined someone like me could ever have started so much trouble?   
    
    
    
    
    
    Was this a Perry Mason moment, or what?
    
    

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    jay_kumar_07posted 14 years ago

    From bible - The human creation of GOD tempt one of the heavnly people[SATAN].This is the first temptation.
    The GUY tempt the creation [Adam&Ave].This is the second temptation.

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    luabuposted 14 years ago

    lets all get stuck into the little leprechaun fellow
    he'd make a lovely marshmallow skewered or boiled
    throw a bit more petrol on this fire hubbers

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39. 0

    luabuposted 14 years ago

    even better
    the leprechaun's a woman
    the possibilities of retribution are multiplied exponentially
    lets make her eat shame until she feels like crap about herself
    that will put a stop to her little irish jig

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40. 0

    luabuposted 14 years ago

    i'll take it that i'm on my own with the leprechaun
    
    i've never attacked a vertically challenged person before so i thought i'd start with a real low blow.
    Maybe it will bounce off the top of her head
    Better go lower
    Petrol Please!

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       Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       It's difficult to get angry at the little people!  But then, being from Ireland, perhaps you know them better than most!

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    luabuposted 14 years ago

    listen randy
    this is not the time for wishy washy sentimental liberalism
    you started this you know
    
    So, OK - I confess!!  I did it!!  I tempted Satan!! 
    
    sounds like a confession from the leprechaun to me
    its a pity she confessed because it means we have to dispense with the trials/ie the dunking in water stuff
    
    there'll be hell to pay for this but lets torch the little bugger and
    be done with it
    petrol please randy and  stand back

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42. 0

    luabuposted 14 years ago

    he whats going on up there
    
    i'm here sweating my nuts off trying to kill this jig jigging leprechaun and you lot are posting higher up the line
    
    is there no damnned fairness here
    
    we're searching for the bottom so come on down

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       Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       ___________
       Why not just skip over this thread and go to another?

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          Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Yes luabu
          
          We solve problems with Satan, it all your fault not Satan
          
          Come to Save Satan fan club thread now showing at the top of the forum
          
          We would rather you to switch than to fight.
          
          Would you pray to Save Satan in order to Save us All?

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43. 0

    luabuposted 14 years ago

    sorry not great reader broken english
    it burn?
    why you want me leave?

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       Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       You said you confess that you did it.  you tempted Satan.
       
       We think it's all free will, don't blame Satan, save Satan and save us all.
       
       That's one way of  venting anyways.

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    habeeposted 14 years ago

    I need popcorn! This is a fascinating thread. Touche, RD!

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       luabuposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       what part of  '' the leprehaun did it''    does the spanish guy not get?
       she's just laughing at us /did ya see her dancing?

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          habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Those evil leprechauns!

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       Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Wait till the end when I give my thoughts!

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          Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Perry Mason moments and leprehaun, oh mine.

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             luabuposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             we're all getting our eyes opened here castlepaloma
             pull up a seat beside the fire

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          habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I'm afeared - VERY afeared!! The end? What if it never ends? How will you know when it's the end?

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             Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             When I give my thoughts!

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    luabuposted 14 years ago

    you'll know
    your head will be fried and thrown on the barbi

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       Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       This thread inspired me, so it started this Save Satan fan club. I’m cautiously brave and don't want to sit too close to the fire. I actually met a few devil worshipers and I only want to save Satan not temp and inflame his powers.
       
       Sure I may get verbally dammed for this fan club, but prefer to take no chance on living like zombies, robots or send forever in hell, hell being  here on earth, the after life we don't really know about until we get there.

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    luabuposted 14 years ago

    sorry castlepaloma for calling you spanish when your actually canadian
    do i get double points here/just asking
    you are cautiously brave /i'm recklessly afraid
    ok ill drop the lepreachan hunt/it was a forced confession anyway/a bit of a spanish inquisition so to speak
    some trained minds have found themselves at the bottom of this pit /i love fire language/does anyone feel a draught
    thomas

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       Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       luabu
       
       I married a Mexican megalomaniac, so I am not a stranger to the suffering and torture from the Spanish inquisition. The best thing that came out of it. It gave me fearlessness strengh making the Save Satan fan club a fun pet project.
       
       Fire is high energy and spark to Science technology as it is  indistinguishable from magic.
       
       Here comes the too much magic and sugar part
       
       Above all, Love everybody, for God is everyone as I’m spiritual sided rather than religious. Through Collective conscious of people through pray, we can Save Satan!

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          Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Correction my daughter has been by far the best thing had has ever happen to me in my life and it was because of our marriage.
          
          Fearlessness is second, for it most often the tragedies the takes to higher levels of enlightenment
          
          Sorry folks, I might be a little emotional today, I think a little writing may help because I don’t know want  to leave the building
          My Mother just pass away today, at age 82

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             Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Please do write, or talk to us if it would help you in any way. Good thoughts toward you.  Try to rest if you can, though!

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             ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             I am sorry for your loss. My mother just left New York and I miss her. I can't imagine how I'd feel if I lost my mom too.

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                Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                My Mother is an atheist and my brother is a pastor, he will be handling the will and the estate, go figure.
                
                Its just my brother and I now, all three of us loved each other deeply, regardless of our great indifferences. There are no two people in my life who have ever balance me better toward a happier middle grounds than them.
                
                I could never understand why any group of people would think for a second that an all loving Mother like mine who happens to be atheists. Who would even suggest an all loving God would take my all loving Mother down to the deepest and lowest fiery burning pits of HELL. Hell is where wild animals rip you apart, where boiling oil burns your flesh until the end of time. I started a Save Satan fan club and what I really mean to say is Save Sanity, not to be confused at this time of year with a coke up Santa.
                
                Into the true sprit of giving was Kris Kingle who gave gifts to the poor children. For all you have in Life is what you give away.
                
                My mother and I gave each other one very strong gift in life.
                We both agree that everyone in the world is God, that way; we both can give the whole world our unconditional love.
                
                From my Mother and I, we give all of you our love.
                
                Thank you all for sharing

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    ceciliabeltranposted 14 years ago

    @ Deborah:
    
    "Daniel (3:25) uses the phrase “like a son of ‘elohin,” which has reference to spiritual beings of some description....
    In a similar vain, Kline would interpret the “sons of God”as a parallel to the “pagan ideology of divine kingship,” which was borrowed as a designation for antediluvian kings.15"
    
    I read in Hebrew, Deborah. But I also read in English. I just read.
    
    THE MEANING OF “SONS OF GOD” IN GENESIS 6:1-4
    by Trevor J. Major, M.Sc., M.A.

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       Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       ___________________________________
       ה, אז אתה קורא עברית, נכון? אני בספק אם אתה עושה. כעניין של עובדה, אני יודע שאתה לא יודע. אבל, אני לא אכפת לי מה אתה קורא, אני יודע מה אני יודע.
       אל תטריד אותי יותר.

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          ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I'm not harassing you Deborah. You're the one saying I'm spreading misinformation and visiting my hubs. (also I could report you for writing in a non-english language, but I won't) I don't speak modern Hebrew and don't use modern Hebrew, but I read Classical Hebrew and studied biblical hebrew for mythological purposes in my interpretation of Bereishit. (This post took a while to decode, but it's pretty close, it sounds like you --although I can't be sure you mean doubtful, or something else, either the grammar is not perfect or I misread it)
          
          It's okay to know what you know. but just the same, I do know what i know too. And if you can't take it, don't dish it.
          
          Read up on mythology and you will see that Astarte, Inanna and the Shekinah are all related stories. This is fact. I'm sorry that you feel harassed. but you know what. I feel harassed too. So  maybe we should stop harassing each other, in english or hebrew.
          
          but post something in Hebrew again where people don't know what you're saying while threatening me and I just might press the report button.

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             seanorjohnposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             !"£$£"£$%^&%$£"
             hey, lighten up.

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                ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                
                
                Lots of pound signs, let me guess you said money money money percent dollars money?  I'm not fluent in that language but thanks for the offer!

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             Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             ____________________________________________
             I replied to your post that said "I read the Hebrew, but I read the English too, so I wanted to see if you read Hebrew.
             
             This is what I said "Oh, so you read Hebrew, do you? I doubt that you do. As a matter of fact, I know you don't. But, I don't care what you read, I know what I know.
             Don't bother me anymore."
             
             And by the way, I didn't write it wrong, translators don't translate Hebrew well.
             
             Now I see you don't "read the Hebrew". You say you read old Hebrew instead, but Modern Hebrew is 99% the same as ancient Hebrew. The language is considered sacred. Only the grammar has changed and the final letters added.
             
             As far as me writing in another language, I can find the post where you and another person carried on a conversation in another language, if you want
             
             Ahh, the tangled webs we weave.

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                ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                You really do not get it. The issue here is whether I do read Hebrew or not. I do read Hebrew, classical Hebrew. I don't read Modern Hebrew text. It's just NOT applicable to me.
                
                But the going on and on about me reading Hebrew and lying about it is just ridiculous. I don't need to know how to read your accusation in Hebrew in order to have the right to say what I think or express what I know. It doesn't invalidate what I know, or what those who are actually experts say about it.
                
                The Shekina is a metaphor that exists in various religious symbolisms. SO, yes you are clueless about that. Clue-full in things like, I know more-isms and I am more expert in  Jewish this and that, kabbalah this, kabbalah that. Fine, own that. Who cares but you.  Mythology is a wide topic. Own your corner But stay out of Christianity because you obviously are in it for religious justification. Blasphemy? Seriously? Did I blaspheme G-d with saying that political issues tainted the content of the dogma?
                
                Going back to discussion, the Holy Spirit in Christian belief is the spirit that invades you from without and makes you speak in tongues and helps you understand knowledge of G-d. So it is coming from without.
                
                The Shekina is the bride of Hashem. She is awaiting to be released from the darkness that enshrouds her light. 
                
                Do you see the difference. Now you could say this and that but it is the holy spirit, but it's just not the same thing. You could translate all you want but the Shekina is not a Christian thought. So do not mismash the two. They are different.
                
                Lucifer is a Christian product that is now being mismashed with a Jewish word for adversary that does  not mean the same thing. so it is good that we are talking about this albeit in a kind of twisted you-centered way. The ideas are being spread out. And yes, you do it in your Jewish Hebrew Translation way school and I will show the parallels. You have your corner of kingdom and I will just be allowed to know something in peace without being harassed.

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                   Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   _______________
                   LOL, you are amusing.
                   Classical Hebrew is Biblical Hebrew. Hebrew hasn't changed.
                   
                   The words and alphabet are the same today as in Biblical times.
                   
                   Modern Hebrew has added the final letters, kaf, mem, nun, pey and tsadi to sound different when written at the end of a word. They also dropped 2 letters of the alphabet.
                   
                   The grammar is different (the way they talk)
                   
                   If someone can read Ancient Hebrew, they can read modern Hebrew.
                   -ism

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                      dhineshbabuposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      hey why r u fighting with eachother...?  the alpha of this game randy played this game well enough to make u both fiery....lets get cool..chill urself...

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                         Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         ___________
                         Carry on with the thread

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                      ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      Deborah, you're still here? talking about Hebrew? Implying you know more? I watched Harry Potter and did a million things already. Go do something more productive! Shake that venom off your reptilian brain, jog, do yoga.  If you really know what you know, you wouldn't work so hard to convince people, really.
                      
                      Now stop being petty and get on with your life.

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48. 0

    luabuposted 14 years ago

    What are you lot like
    I leave you alone for two hours and you are back talking crap again
    lets get serious here and roast someone
    if its not the leprechaun or the spanish guy/sorry canadian/mexican then what about that weird black and white fellow
    he looks like a real fire starter/that potwieldre fella or somentin

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    seanorjohnposted 14 years ago

    Honestly guys you gotta read "the day I swore on the bible". Satan had tempted me. He was no friend.

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       Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       What kind of temp
       
       Maybe Save Satan club can HELP.
       
       Satan's days are numbered! This particular Scripture verse is referring to
       Satan's mischief during the tribulation period.
       
       We aim understand Satan mischief in cases like yours, it could be happening all over the world.

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    seanorjohnposted 14 years ago

    I'm going to check out that club now. I have a silly tendency to put things off. I must act now.Before it is too late.

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       Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       seanorjohn
       
       It maybe the only way to save our soul, Hay! that might work in a comedy club.

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