They plan to picket Elizabeth Edward's funeral.
http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/ar … neral.html
They are Christians! God talks to them and makes his wishes known. Ask any Christian, they will tell you this!
They are not Christians. That isn't God speaking to them. They are a shame, an embarrassment to the human race
I can claim to be a tree. That doesn't make me one.
Sorry! They claim they are Christians, just like many other delusional folks. I cannot tell the difference, is there a test or something? Or do you think god talks to you too?
A person can claim to be anything. That doesn't make it so. A true Christian is some one who tries to follow the teachings of Jesus. These people are not doing that.
You avoided my last question! Oversight?
I know that as I would pray for my husband to be saved I would hear a voice say that I wouldn't have him long after he is saved. My husband was saved in March 1998. He past away in June 1998.
Yes, I believe the Lord spoke to me.
The Lord is not speaking to the people of Westboro Baptist Church. They are not acting within the teachings of Jesus.
So, both you and the Phelps are hearing voices. But you don't believe them! HAHAHA! The pot, calling the kettle......! You ARE indeed a christian, judging everyone else but not yourself! What else is new.
I know what they are doing is not how Jesus taught. No one I know would ever stand there and protest with them. Excuse us for having our own opinion.
I knew you only wanted to mock me. That's ok. What ever makes you feel better.
No, really, how does one tell if a self proclaimed christian is actually telling the truth when they say god talks to them? How do you tell if you don't know them personally? Just take their word for it? Seriously! Did you believe Jim Jones? Oral Roberts? Jimmy Swaggart? Jim Baker? Pat Robertson?
I understand what you are saying. I guess if ya don't know a self professed Christian personally, ya really don't know. If ya know a Christian, they won't have to tell ya, you will see it. You have to go by their actions. Things they say, and do. Do their actions and words go along with the teachings of Jesus? If so then they are a true Christian. If not, well, ya know the answer.
As far as what the above named, or any preacher says? If it doesn't go along with what Jesus said, I walk away. I have left churches because I wasn't hearing what I was reading.
Usually by the fruits of their labor. So if the results of their Christian teachings shows or demonstrates that they are sharing the love without judgement.
How hard could it be for anyone to tell whether or not they are Christian?
As someone mentioned earlier. We can claim to be whatever we want to be. Our actions however will speak louder than any words or claims to anything
What these people demonstrate is not what is being taught in Christianity, at least my understanding of the teachings. This means there understanding is tainted by there own agendas. They are a minority I might add.
Yes, but don't you see? They believe they are doing the right thing and that their actions reflect proper Christian behavior. They might view your interpretation of the teachings of Christ to be tainted by an agenda, too.
That is why it is a cop out to say they are not "true Christians." They are Christians who engage in a particular behavior that many Christians abhor, but they're still Christians.
Yes I realize that is what they believe, and for sure they will interpret others views including mine differently and I am not a Christian!
That aside, my point was; Christian behavior according to the bibles teaching should exemplify Jesus. If they believed what Christians teach, are they failing to see how Jesus lived? Or interpreting it the way they think Jesus or God would want them to act?
Christian or not Christian they are a minority in my opinion. I don't know what a true Christian is nor do I claim to know. I am going solely on the basis of the Christian teachings that I understand. An example which will fit well here in this discussion is the verse that goes something like...love your neighbor as yourself.
Perhaps when we take this teaching into account it might reveal just how well they love themselves. Their actions speak louder than words then.
I personally have no opinion on what constitutes behavior that exemplifies Jesus. I understand what you are saying, but it isn't really pertinent to my point. I was addressing those people (generally Christians) who refer to Christians who perpetrate abhorrent or illegal acts such as killing an abortion doctor or picketing military funerals as not "true Christians." To me, it's just a convenient way to absolve Christianity from the abuses that have occurred in its name.
It does indeed depend on which christian cult one belongs to. Mormons call themselves christians too, just like the Jonestown group.
Non-christians may be better folks and stick closer to the teachings of Jesus than those who are self proclaimed believers. It matters not the title, just the deeds. This is the reason there are so many christian cults who do not agree with each other.
Perhaps they were referring to what they understand to be true Christians teaching, I don't know? Does it matter? It is irrelevant what we or they label themselves.
The majority of Christian followers would agree that the foundation of its teaching is around love and those who have used this religion as an excuse for their actions is their choice alone not the religion and what it advocates.
What therefore is there to absolve, the religion or the people?
They call themselves Christians, they attend a Christian church, and they do what they do BECAUSE they are Christians.
Christians like to excuse the behavior of their fellow Christians by saying they are not "true Christians."
I almost said that myself, PP! I've heard that said by "true christians" so many times I could almost blow grits!
Would you guys make the same assertions regarding other religions? Such as Muslim for instance? I'm guessing not.
I don't condemn all Christians for the acts of a few any more than I would condemn all Muslims.
But I also would never say they are not "true Muslims." Extremist Muslims, yes, just like the Phelps cult are extremist Christians.
Actually you didn't make that distinction in your original statement.
"They call themselves Christians, they attend a Christian church, and they do what they do BECAUSE they are Christians."
See, you didn't mention "Extremist". I'm trying to make a broader point here. I see alot of bold statements made by people regarding the dominant and traditional religion here in the states. However, most would not make those statements regarding other religions. In fact they would bend over backwards to be accomidating.
I understand your point; I just think you're trying to inaccurately characterize my position.
I don't make that distinction because, like I said, they are all Christians. Some hold more extremist views than others, but they are all Christians.
I certainly would, CJ! Religions were created to control people. And as you can see, it works! Superstitions are alive and well in this world.
Ok, if you say so. Religions are used to controll people, no doubt. To say it was created or all were created for that purpose is a stretch.
I see an awefull lot of people giving a lot of leeway with religions other than Christians these days. While feeding christians to the lions so to speak. In the foruns, the news, leftwing blogs etc.
Randy, I totaly understand about the "God Speaks to Me" thing. It realy seems to bother you. It does me too. I don't speak with members of my own family over the issue. I'm a firm believer that if you are hearing audible voices, that you believe is God, you should see a doctor. I would also agree with you that people who believe this are also more likely to get involved with fringe or cult like behavior or just plain old crazy behavior.
Go to their site, read what they have to say. You will be hard pressed to find your run of the mill christian acknowlege any of these peoples outrageous beliefs.
What is a "run of the mill" Christian? Someone like Jimmy Swaggart who said "If I do not return to the pulpit this weekend, millions of people will go to hell"?
Or is it someone like Ted Haggard who said “all of us have a responsibility to advance God's will through government.”
Or is it someone like my former neighbor? He attends church three times a week and thinks homosexuals don't deserve to live.
Funny. Don't expect me to defend any of those people. Least of all Swaggart. If I NEVER darken the door of a church again it will be because of him. I grew up there. I know all too well about "Selling Jesus". Christianity is about Christian Principles. Not some televangelist begging for money. Nor is passing judgement on an entire nation because of the percieved sins of a few.
Basic Principles. Ten Commandments. The Beattitudes. Simple stuff. The rest of the crap, they can have it.
I understand. However, a great many Christians obviously don't believe like you; hence the popularity of people like Swaggart, Haggart, Robertson, and Falwell. Oh, and let's not forget the Bakkers: Tammy Fay and her hubby.
Anyway, my point is, they are ALL Christians.
Christians by your definition. A definition coming from what I assume would be, by your own definition, a non christian.
I don't know what you mean here. I personally have no definition of a Christian. However, if a person calls himself a Christian, attends a Christian church, and bases certain behaviors upon the teachings of that Christian church, then he is a Christian.
They are not following the teachings of Christ.
They believe in Jesus? Well, so does lucifer.
They believe they are following the teachings of Christ, as do all Christians. Of course, who is to say which is the "correct" interpretation of those teachings? You, I take it?
Jesus taught love and forgiveness. Jesus taught to not think of ourselves as better than another. Jesus taught not to offend another. No, I don't believe they are following his teachings.
I will stick with my interpretation. I see them more like the Scribes and Pharasses. The Scribes and Pharasses held to the letter of the law and didn't look into mans heart. That is what Jesus had against them. These people may have good hearts, I don't know. But if they do, how can they be so cruel to another?
If they are Christians, they are sinless. You know the bible says "he without sin, cast the first stone". Well they threw rocks at me during a Soldiers funeral a couple of years ago.
Seriously. These people are a crazy. I know your no friend of religion. I'm guessing your characterization was meant to be funny.
They are not Christians, they are complete a**holes!
Randy, Is it that hard to have empathy for the battle this woman endured for 6 years? Maybe a tiny bit of compassion that her children may see such a protest at their Mothers funeral?
It is sick that even you are making this a religious debate for insults. Ugh.
I have complete empathy for her and her family, H.A.! But none whatsoever for those who judge others using the Bible as a shield to excuse their behavior. And this includes those who are so quick to point fingers at others because they do not share their delusions.
What you consider an insult is my idea of truth. What you consider truth is my idea of an insult. Until those of you can make yourself understand this, we shall trade insults.
I do indeed loathe those who would dare to disturb the funeral of Mrs. Edwards. But their righteousness is not so far removed from many christian institutions in this country. They are merely the worst examples.
These folks are really scary. I can't believe that Child Services doesn't go after the parents involved with this organization. They routinely bring their children to their little hate festivals.
Interesting. The comments on the leaflet are no different from many of the comments I've read here from Christians who feel and believe the same things about homosexuality. The only difference is that the Westboro folks act on these beliefs.
And, while there are Christians here who wouldn't go to the lengths of picketing a funeral to have their voices heard, they certainly do share the same views on homosexuality and are calling the kettle black as far as their beliefs are concerned.
You're wrong about that, Beelzedad.
Christians do not share the same views on homosexuality as the Westboro Church members. Because Christians know that God does NOT hate homosexuals. He only hates the perverse acts they commit and glorify; and He will not condone the gay agenda, but forgiveness is open for all who will repent.
The Westboro Church has twisted the Bible's intent and words to suit their agenda, whatever that is.
Their actions are just as abhorrent as are the actions of those gays who invaded and desecrated a Church by going in and insulting the congregation and throwing fliers around and hollering God loves gays too. Both groups are wrong, and both groups do a disservice to Christians and sinners alike, and honestly, BOTH groups should be jailed not only for harrassment but for forcing blasphemy upon the public.
The Westboro Baptist Church is only slightly to the right of "mainstream" Baptist churches.
They would probably be in the Baptists' good graces if it were not for 2 reasons:
1. they protest military funerals
2. they say that allowing divorce is one of America's sins that God hates (Baptists like to ignore that part of what Jesus said...five times)
In fact, when they limited their protests to gay people's funerals (like Matthew Shepard's), evangelicals didn't really make a peep.
livelonger, you have a habit of assuming things.
Like, you might even delve into the real story of Matthew Shepard to begin with, and you would see that that events and reasons behind that have been twisted big-time and used as a tool for the homosexual agenda.
I could take an event where gays murdered a straight man and, if I wanted to, make a campaign to end up where all gays are labeled and persecuted as murderous heterophobes. But then, that would make me a manipulating deceitful uncivil rights activist.
And you have a habit of twisting words.
When did anyone say that straight people are all a bunch of murderous homophobes? It is clear public opinion, and the jury, agreed Shepard's murderers were homophobes. I wonder what would make you feel so defensive as to think condemning those murderers as motivated by bigotry was some sort of blanket condemnation of heterosexuality?
Back to my original point (which you conveniently ignored), the WBC wasn't opposed by evangelical groups when it was picketing the funerals of gay people. Only when it condemned the tolerance of divorce along with homosexuality, and when it picketed military funerals, did other Baptists object.
Oh, you expect Baptists to defend homosexual activists against the wicked Westboro Church?!
Now that's funny, I don't care who ya are! LOL
(But indeed I DID just make a defense in my post above. And that's as good as it gets as long as homosexuals are blatantly spouting blasphemies against the Christian God.)
...Umm...maybe, just maybe, Evangelicals and Baptists and other Christians would defend the ones who are actually oppressed (or depressed) if it weren't for those activists who invade churches and our streets shouting blasphemies and forcing repeals of good laws like Prop 8 and attacking Christians both in word and deed.
As it stands now, we can hardly tell the difference between gay activists and those people who actually admit they have a problem they'd like mercy and help for. Those people are being given a bad name because of the activists. Not everyone who has homosexual temptations is trying to shove the agenda down our throats, livelonger. Those people are being shunned or ignored by gay activists because they don't fit into their plans. If I were one of those, I'd be scared as heck to even seek help for my problem.
For the "gay" person who's honestly trying to fight his/her temptations and wants to be treated with mercy and acceptance and tenderness, my heart/mind is open, as are most Christian church doors! But neither those nor the pulpits are open (nor should be open) to the nonsensical idea of homosexuality being sanctioned by God.
And that is the bottom line----they have a problem, and admitting it is the first step to rising above the temptation. Your gay agenda skips that step and turns it all into a fake civil rights agenda that no one seems to have the guts to expose and put a stop to.
The people who attended Matthew Shepard's funeral were his father, his mother, his friends, and other people who didn't think you should be murdered for being gay. Is this your definition of the term "homosexual activists"?
That's a really sad statement. It also suggests the only people who aren't "homosexual activists" are stuck in the Stone Age.
Brenda, do you agree that, according to the Christian Bible:
- divorce is just as much a sin as homosexuality?
- homosexuality was not mentioned once by Jesus Christ?
- divorce was condemned by Jesus Christ five times?
- living in a second marriage is unrepentant sin, much like continuing to "lie with a man as you would a woman"?
- the United States tolerates divorce even more than it tolerates homosexuality?
- that divorcees castigating homosexuality would constitute hypocrisy?
- that trying to demonize one particular sin while sanctioning others you'd like to partake in would constitute hypocrisy?
- hypocrisy was hated by Jesus Christ?
Interesting that you are constantly trying to change the subject from sins you might be guilty of into those sins you couldn't be guilty of.
If you're unable to fool anyone in this forum, what makes you think you're fooling God?
"Oh, you expect Baptists to defend homosexual activists against the wicked Westboro Church?!"
Well, I don't see it as unreasonable to expect good Christians to speak out against a bunch of bullies using Jesus' name as an excuse to act like a bunch of jerks. Many Christians have done so here.
And then there are those who seem to think that the main message in the entire bible is this: Don't be gay, and do you best to make life miserable for people who are!
These folks seem to be giving the Westboro "Baptist" Church a pass.
And finally, the only "gay agenda" is this: gays should be treated as everyone else is treated, and should enjoy the same rights and responsibilities as any other citizen.
For some reason, that's a terrifying prospect for some people. I've never really understood it, but I'm not a clinical psychologist, so psychological aberrations are outside my area of expertise.
First, you say I'm wrong, then you make my point. Nice work, Brenda.
Once again, well done, Brenda! Going back through your post history somewhat, I found a whole lot more just like it.
Waitwait: God hates Figs? Then we have something in common. I prefer Strawberry Newtons, myself.
Haha...Maybe they read the text in the bible drunk and mistook Fig for Fag?
Then again....Figs represented an abomination according to that article. Never new that one???
Whats a strawberry newton? Is that a strawberry?
Dear Uninvited writer ... I do not have much to add, to what the Believers have already stated here ...
I will only add that ... "The Lord hath Sworn, by the Fig, the Olive and the Mount at Sinai ...
Perhaps the Phelps are as much anti Islamic, as they are anti Christ.
those people certainly scrape the bottom of human existence.
what a terrible sight at such a brave woman's final gathering.
The best counter protest was when they picketed Comic-Con
"These people are not doing that." Isn't that being judgmental?
Doesn't Jesus teach his followers to not do this? Not a true christian either, I guess, because you do not follow his teachings. Or is that just for other christians but not you? LOL!
It is appalling what this "church" protests. What is it they are protesting? Cancer? That she died? They make no sense.
I have read that the Patriot Brigade may well be there to sheild the funeral. They hold flags and rev their bikes to drownd out the "church" protest. I hope they are.
Aren't there IRS rules that a "church" jeopardizes its status when they focus on political issues?
I do wish there was something that would stop these people. They cause so much pain for others. I guess freedom of speech isn't always such a good thing.
Apparently, they enforced a law for fallen soldiers because they were protesting at their funerals too.! According to this law they cannot be within 300 meters of the funeral or they go to Jail. This law however does not protect the Gay people or anyone else they feel are not within their understanding of Gods law.
The head of this renegade Babtist church was a lawyer apparently who got debarred for perjury. He went to Jail for assault and battery but none of those experiences seem to stop him from doing what he still does. Being an ex lawyer I don't think any law will prevent him from doing what he does.
"Aren't there IRS rules that a "church" jeopardizes its status when they focus on political issues?"
Nope. Only when it endorses a particular candidate.
A brave woman lost a hard fought battle with cancer. She didn't have a charmed life yet she stood strong. Some idiots want to protest her funeral, likely will further traumatise her young children, and christian bashing is all you can come up with?
What if it were your Mother, or your grieving children? Can't you feel empathy for more than a fleeting second? And you are so sure you are better than those who would protest? Blah.
Aren't you bashing self proclaimed christians, H.A.? Why is it okay for you to do it? Just because you do not agree with their beliefs? Now you see how you appear to others, except YOUR beliefs are more sane, right? The pot calling the kettle.....!
What a joke!
I wouldn't agree with ANY group or individual doing something like this, be they Christian, Muslim, farmers, butchers, bakers, or candlestick makers!
You're a farmer, RD. If this were a bunch of farmers acting so, would you think it was okay? I don't think you would. There are good and bad in every group, including Christians. For example, you're a deer hunter. I've known deer hunters who enjoyed running deer down with dogs and letting the dogs rip the deer apart. They say the deer "screams" when this happens, and the men get off on this. One victim I know of was a pregnant doe, and the so-called hunters had the unborn fawn stuffed by our taxidermist-neighbor. You'd never do something like that, but these were "real hunters," or at least, that's what they called themselves.
Yes, I've know christian hunters like that too! Kidding of course, and no I do not equate all self proclaimed christians with the deeds of others. But god delusion knows no bounds and can easily morph into something ugly if the followers are instigated enough. Brainwashing has that effect on people, Re:Jim Jones and his bunch!
Anytime people believe god runs their lives there is a chance they may go too far in carrying out the wishes of the voices in their heads.
Thank you Habee for saying what I was trying to. We are all human beings and protesting a funeral is just flat out wrong.
Every poster in this thread has clearly shown their disgust at the actions of these people and sympathy for the people involved. However, pointing out that this disgusting group of 'protesters' are christians is perfectly legitimate expression and does no harm to the woman involved or her family, indeed it shows clear support for them.
Deflecting the point of the thread by transparent disgust for the opponents of the theology that gives rise to these people is pathetic.
The point is that this kind of behaviour is a logical extension of the doctrine and it reflects back on all christians. The views of these people are the same christian views taken to extremes and it is the doctrine itself that should be examined to put this on a better course.
I think its been examined, added to, subtracted from etc more than any other doctrine, yet still people have their own perceptions.
Talk about missing my point. Deflecting and talking dogma? Are you for flippin real??? When you drive by a terrible car accident, do you hope the people are ok for a split second before you crack jokes seeing a religious symbol on their smashed bumper? There is something wrong with people who cannot muster compassion in the face of tragedy no matter what faith or no faith period. Say what you will, I am unimpressed with the character displayed by those of no faith on this thread. Blah.
Wait a minute HA. Who is going to picket the funeral, is it China man? Somehow I thought this is your fellow religionists staying at the scene of a terrible car accident and chanting that people are dying here cause they were homosexuals - using your own analogy. I frankly fail to see any compassion on your side whatsoever. And than you proceed to lecture those that point this out for you about their lack of compassion? How perverted is that? What a disgusting religion!
I just have to chime in here. What you said above is correct. You shopuld read it slowly and find the tru8th in your own words above. Every poster in this thread has clearly shown their disgust at the actions of these people and sympathy for the people involved. It has been condemned by all.
By your own logic, all atheists even if they outwardly condemn the actions of Polpot and the like, are just like them anyway because they call themselves atheists.
The point is tnhat many have shown compassion but still others only try to stir things up. What's the point in that?
Christians (so called) commit murder.
Unbelievers (so called) commit murder.
In a nutshell (pardon the pun)..
Some people do wierd and crazy things in the name of God and in the name of a dead relative ( or some famous person) or ...or..
Some people do great and good things and most of us have read ,or learned ,or know these people.
Thank (God) most of us know the latter
That church is a disgrace to Christians - or to any reasonable people - everywhere!
RD, you think all people who follow a religion are delusional, so that means you voted for a delusional POTUS! And judging by the church he attended, it was a pretty "extreme" group.
Disgusting... I wonder what all the free speech advocates on this forum think about this? Just because you can, doesn't mean you should... responsibility...
Well thats one of the arguments that have been made in these clowns defense. Cities that have had experiences with this group have passed ordinances that exclude funerals as "public" events. It's getting to the point where people are going to have to plan for this. If you are the family of a Service Member or Elected official, your going to have to press to have your services as PRIVATE. In the case of Service Members this will ultimately come at the cost of the tax payer. There are community organizations such as the Patriot Guard that will show up in mass to create a human shield between these clowns and greiving family. I've participated in quite a few. Event this group has had it's problems. However if the family request support I feel obliged to provide if I can.
This is where free speech advocates lose me. I am all about free speech, but when it clearly hurts someone, especially someone in grief, I just can't agree with that.
A young man goes and gives his life for his country and you honor him by "protesting" his funeral and hurling slurs... man... just makes my skin crawl.
Good on you C.J. for being part of the human shields.
china man wrote:
However, pointing out that this disgusting group of 'protesters' are christians is .......???
- - - - -
Do they have any other distinguishing characteristics other than calling themselves Christian ?
Maybe they all have blue eyes in which case we have a case against ALL blue eyed individuals ?
Maybe they are all short in stature?
Maybe they are all the only child, having no siblings?
I bet that they are all single adults having no close friends or family.
There must be something else that sets them apart other than professing to be Christian
You and others here trying to blur this issue - the point is that these people are doing what they are not because they are short or have green eyes, or have had cancer, or are atheist - THEY ARE DOING BECAUSE THEY ARE CHRISTIANS
It is the logical extension of a faulty dogmatic ideology and all christians bear some responsibility in it. The idea of the family of this poor woman having to tolerate a bunch of people protesting because they hear voices in their heads - and the revving motorcycles of some god-squad confronting them is beyond belief in this enlightened age.
I have often heard Christians state that other Christians, who do not believe as they believe, are not “true” Christians. Yet, I have never heard a Christian declare that they believe what they have chosen to believe, that others believe what they have chosen to believe, and that there is a remote possibility that either or both could be wrong.
Every day I pray that God will save us from His many followers that are convinced that they know what He is thinking.
It seems like "true" Christian groups turned the religion into some sort of popularity contest where you have on one side the "regular" Christians and on the other, the "it" Christians. Although this has been going on for 2000 years now, the only difference is that the two are not killing each other in droves.
I laugh everytime some self proclaimed prophet or "true" believer claims that god told them to do this or that or to spread a message. Wouldn't it better sense for god to tell everyone at once than to trust his divine word to some clown who'd screw it up. If someone made a claim that god spoke to them, and them only, I would recommend to this person to seek a mental evaluation because voices inside the head isn't exactly a good thing.
So, it's okay to support the Phelps bunch and there tactics when it's something you agree with them on? If that is the case you are also justifying them using such tactics for all funerals.
Well, they did show up...3 adults and two children. A much larger group showed up to counter protest.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/1211/ … ds-funeral
That's good to hear that those low lifes didn't show. They, and others like them, need to move to a country that doesn't tolerate homosexuality where they can feel at home. Of course countries not only don't tolerate gays but don't tolerate protesting either.
Reports like this reaffirm my faith in humanity. There will always be a few perverted, pathetic whackos out there, but the vast majority of the human race are good people.
Thanks for the link.
How could they subject innocent children to such hate??
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