Loosing my Religion

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Disappearingheadposted 12 years ago
Let's be honest now, how many believers out there have got to point at some stage in your life where you have thought of throwing in the towel with either God or your beliefs or both? Maybe because of unanswered prayer, lack of evidence of God's intervention/interest in your life, boredom, or just a sense that your Sunday School teaching doesn't stack up against life's realities.

Well I'll put my hand up here for more than one occasion. If you are hanging in there as some sort of insurance policy though, you perhaps need to look at your doctrines.

No quoting scripture now because they're used as stock glib answers and demonstrate a cop out.
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  Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Losing my Religion.
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  Sally's Troveposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I was tempted to word-play a lot on the loosing vs losing. Your concise comment summed up my thoughts nicely.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I got to the point where I thought of muddying the towel but never throwing it in!
  
  "My heart is fixed, O God, my heart is fixed: I will sing and give praise."
  (Psalm 57: 7)
  
  And I thank God for it!
  
  "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
  To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."
  (Jude 24)
  
  No quoting Scripture, huh? Well, just call me a rebel I guess!
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Just got here And this is the first really really Good post For the night.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A rebel for Christ
  
  I love it.
  
  Oil for some ,vinegar for another.
  
  Well,sister we just serve, I trust God to know who ordered what
  
  Throwing in the towel, well when I couldnt walk properly and kept falling on my pa tutti, I thought about screaming and rolling around on the floor a few times (ok I did more than think about it)
  
  Then one day , I didnt fall every other minute, I EVOLVED into a beautiful butterfly ...
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  nice goin rebel
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's amazing what happens when faith is placed squarely in front of reality for scrutiny.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Funny how it waxes and wanes. Maybe there is more to reality than meets the eye?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wishful thinking.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Faith most definitely waxes and wanes with life's circumstances. I just don't think it's possible to keep up a happy clappy smiley face when we find ourselves in situations that challenge us to the core. Perhaps those who say they can have not been brought low or who have had an easy life where their faith has been truely tested.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  everything waxes and wanes, hope, health, love, life, generosity, devotion blah blah etc etc... the moon lol
  Its actually not funny at all just a part of being human
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You really don't understand much. Do you? Or maybe you do and are pretending you don't. You did admit to being dishonest.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  welcome troll number 2
  
  poisoning the well are you? Well that's okay whatever you need to do to make yourself better,
  get well soon.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's one thing that fascinates me here. The definition of troll is apparently the opposing view. Fear is a powerful motivator for insults. I don't fear the opposing view. Some, I pity. Some I find offensive. But I don't fear.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  fear is a powerful motivator for insults, only If you say so, but i do not perceive it that way.
  Insults fall where they may and even stem as a form of disguising what one wants to say, because of moderators, we need to curb our messages.
  I am sure you want fear to be a motivator and that's just because it fits in with what you want to think, which is your MO for many issues, but real fear keeps a shut mouth, does it not?
  You even switched the meaning of troll to suit your opinion
  you said opposing view
  the definition is: a person who posts to an internet discussion group or chat room with the sole purpose of disrupting it and to attempt to incite a negative or argumentative reaction in an online discussion.
  Like many people do, they say what they want without getting actual fact first.
  That's pitiful indeed. Before i say anything, i check it out thoroughly first. You may want to emulate this fine christian like quality.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Everyone's a troll who points out your dishonesty.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  which you have not pointed out and this makes you dishonest.
  and since i perceive that most of your posts are only to incite i called you a troll. I think that was pretty honest of me
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  TJenkins602posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I'm a human so I definitely have had my days. There comes a point when one is going to have to radically redefine God for himself or drop him all together.
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  Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Disappearinghead!
  
  Do I detect another “cop out”? Is it not possible for believers to explain the importance, purpose, and relevance of their beliefs in today’s world without using scripture?
  
  Just a curious thought. Like an echo from a empty jar.
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  Hubertsvoiceposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Losing faith in religion is not a bad thing, religion is a business like many others, only tax free. When you lose faith in God or doubt that he exists, take a breath. You have just witnessed another one of God's miracles.
  God exists and will not turn his back.
  Ask God what his plan for you is (another man or woman cannot cannot answer that for you). Follow his guidance to the letter, your faith will strengthen. God is our Father in Heaven, and he always answers prayers. If our prayers go against His plan for us, that answer will be no.
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  workabroadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree. He sometimes can be silent, but it does not necessarily means that He left us. "He will never leave us nor forsake us," a promise we can continually yield on.
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  Hugh Williamsonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you have to work at believing in something then you should be doubtful about that belief.
  
  It's a personal thing. You have a right to be religious, atheist, spiritual, non-spiritual or whatever you feel is correct for you.
  
  Make your own decisions, explore different viewpoints and, above all just enjoy the ride. No one will be punished for that.
  
  Best of luck on your journey.
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  Titen-Sxullposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's been years since I was at that point. I never threw the "towel" so to speak, at least not all at once. Rather I came to the conclusion that I could not believe in God as he was described in the Bible since he was inconsistent with morality, basic empathy, logic, etc. The logical and moral contradictions of scripture overwhelmed any attempt at "hanging in there" I ever made.
  
  As such for a while I pursued the "one true God", looking into other religions and philosophies before becoming a sort of pantheist who believed God was just a benevolent Universal force. I eventually found this to be just as illogical as when I was a Christian. It also did very little other than to offer some emotional comfort.
  
  I've been an atheist since around December 2009, or at least it was soon after that that I realized I fit the description of one. The experience of losing my faith was gradual but it was also incredibly liberating and enlightening. Along the way I learned how to reason instead of simply feeling my way around in the dark allowing emotion to drive everything I believed.
  
  So for anyone out there afraid to let go of faith, don't be. Part of the human journey is discovering new ideas and ways of thinking and questioning what you are told is true. Without doubt and without skepticism it is impossible to determine if what you believe is likely to be true.
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  Slarty O'Brianposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you haven't, perhaps the forums isn't a place you should be. lol...
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  shop online fastposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  wow!
  
  there are times when i pray and cry for things, over and over, for months, and it seems like nothing happens
  
  i usually pray for better jobs, raise of pay etc. pretty much for monies.
  
  but one night i happen to flip the tv channel and dr mike murdock was on ministering about money
  
  he said these things:
  1) money is not a miracle, but money is the reward for solving a problem
  
  2) if you do not solve a problem, then you can't get money (other than winning the lotto)
  
  and
  
  3) God does not respond to our needs. it doesn't matter how much you need something. God only responds to our faith, whether you go to church or not
  
  the big question is, how does one increase his faith in God?
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Jeramiposted 12 years ago
I can't be honest with a one liner.

Seems as though religion is where many people find God.
And many people never find God in religion, though they try.

I feel like I am developing a stronger faith in God as my faith in religion deminishes.

And anyone that has been reading my posts for the past two years should understand why. Too much Tradition, cerimony and misinterpretations.

Scripture has always been interpreted that way, SOoo that is the way that it must be. Not.

Anyway ; Disappearinghead, Good question and I am intrested in its outcome.
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Virgil Newsomeposted 12 years ago
I will be honest and say that I have thought about letting it all go before and on more than one occasion. It had nothing to do with unanswered or answered prayers. It was simply life and the frustration it sometimes brings. Discouragement at times when things aren't going well. I end up fighting through it and a fire starts up in my bones it seems. I have to hold onto the One who bore me.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Good answer that I can relate to. For me it is as the disciples asked the Messiah "where else would I go?"
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stemcellenhancerposted 12 years ago
I am a Christian and love God.

But it's not due to following dogma or theology.

It's because God revealed Himself to me when I asked him to show me himself.

It might seem untrue or unbelievable for some but God is bigger than some book or process or teaching.

I would have thrown it all away years ago if God didn't show up when He did. in any case He is always looking for lost sheep - even if you walk away.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, so tell us what he looked like? What did you have to say to get Him to reveal Himself considering so many others are trying to do the same thing with no results?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "In spirit and in truth" troubled NOT in Hollywood or Goggle lol
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  stemcellenhancerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hi A Troubled Man
  
  Thanks for asking. I've been reading some of your posts to try and understand more of where you might be coming from. I see that you're an avid commentor and one who loves debate.
  
  For me, I'm not really into online debating, but I will limit myself to quiet comments. Please appreciate that what I share is from a personal perspective, and I don't claim to be able to answer everyone's questions.
  
  Now, to your questions.
  
  1. What did he look like ?
  
  -> God didn't "show" himself to me in terms of physical appearance. He "revealed Himself" to me. Psychologists call it a "light bulb" moment when things are completely understood the way they are meant to be understood. When God reveals himself, it's a light bulb moment that isn't something that you can read about. In the Bible this is called "revelation".
  
  In the Biblical book of Hebrews, it says that "whoever wants to know God must believe that He exists, and that He rewards those who seek Him" (my paraphrase here...) So in short if we are cynical about Him then He won't reveal Himself. But if we believe that He exists then get ready to interact with Him.
  
  On a personal note, the "lightbulb moments" where God reveals Himself to me are happening all the time. Some days it will be 2 or 3 times a day. At other times it could be a week before He shows up.
  
  2. What did you have to say to get Him to reveal Himself considering so many others are trying to do the same thing with no results?
  
  -> I'm wondering if you're referring to "chanting" here, or invoking some kind of spell or incantion that produces a genie out of a bottle style of results ?
  
  The thing I said was, "God, I believe you are real. I believe that you want to show yourself to me. Please reveal yourself to me."
  
  From then on it took God a while to act; or pehaps it took me a while to receive it - I'm not sure
  
  In any case, once I took the time to earnestly seek Him, He acted.
  
  As you can see, I've left this as a two way street in terms of resposibilities. It's our responsibility to believe that God exists and to ask Him to reveal Himself. It's His responsibility to show up and convince us.
  
  And when He does, it's a lightbulb moment.
  
  Are you in a position to try it ?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I certainly wasn't very hopeful on getting a straight answer and find yours to be lacking and very much the same as any other, you simply want to believe in God. There was no revealing at all, it's all in your head.
  
  Yeah, sure.
  
  Actually, it's our responsibility to be honest, first with ourselves before we can be honest with others. You have yet to take that first step.
  
  To be dishonest with myself? No thanks.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Those are excellent answers didn't you realize them when they bit you. Part of the problem is that you don't take time to read the post slowly and take into consideration what the words say and what the words mean. Another part of the problem is that the way you understand things is like this:
  John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
  John 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
  John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
  John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
  John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
  
  An example of literal and carnal thinking missing the point. You seek for an answer that appeals to your carnal thinking, and because spiritual interpretation is not one of your capabilities, you flounder about the proper context and your understanding is insufficient.
  Not your fault
  keep trying
  but slow down on the criticism because you are not above being wrong or dishonest by ignorance
  have a nice day
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, so you claim to be superior to me because you possess the characteristics of "spiritual interpretation"
  
  Dishonesty indeed.
  
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  TJenkins602posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is good to hear. Apparently, God has revealed to you the same thing God has revealed to me.
  
  Troubled Man,
  
  All I could say is do not look for a bearded man sitting on a cloud.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Gee, that helps.
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  TJenkins602posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Glad I could be of help.
  
  (I'm actually surrounded by some nosy religious people, so I can't say much... Oh, dammit! I got caught. Out to be stoned and sent to a fiery hell with me.)
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  All the quiet Christians are in here
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RookerySpoonerposted 12 years ago
I long ago stopped believing in God, and I have told Him so. However, this does not stop me from dearly wishing I could have some religious faith again, because of the comfort it used to give me.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting conundrum that one.
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  Sally's Troveposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Amen.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I honestly hope this helps return your comfort.
  
  Proof God exists>>>> http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/67947#top
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Seek and you shall find Rookery
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Rookery?
  
  ...Bird nests?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  RookerySpooner (another poster)
  
  Sorry maybe posted in wrong place.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why do you keep promoting logical fallacies? Do you even know what it is?
  
  Here's a list, see how many of them you use...
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If it is a simple logical fallacy, (like a belief that the inability to scientifcally prove something exists is proof that it doesn't) then you should have no problem pointing out/explaining that fallacy. Stating it is a fallacy does not prove it is a fallacy. So far you have not and neither has anyone else been able to do so. Avoiding the truth does not dis-prove the truth.
  
  Proof of the fallacy I listed: DNA has existed since a time long before humanity existed. Recently humanity has discovered and proven the existence of DNA. That proof did not bring DNA into existence, DNA existed before it was proven to exist. Therefore things that cannot be scientifically proven to exist, do indeed exist.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nice point
  
  trolls don't listen very well though
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank You
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ahh, when pointing out the dishonesty of Christians, one becomes a troll. I see now.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  thanks for proving my point
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You do realize you just called yourself dishonest? I can't imagine a scenario where I would have seen that one coming.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I guess you really want to explain that, so go ahead
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No BO. The exchange was self explanatory. If you don't have the desire to figure it out any comment from me would be a waste of breath. I've got a big day ahead, I'm conserving my energy.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And, you, mine.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You know, A Troubled Man is right. Your proof that God exists isn't proof.
  
  The Proof: If there are more than one forms of life and they are not identical, then one must be the lesser. If there is a lowest form of life, then there must be a highest form of life. The highest form of life (whatever that is) is the Supreme Being... humanity has come to call that form of life, God.
  
  I think the first thing I would ask is, why do you assume one is lesser? The second; simply because we might categorize one as higher, and one as lesser, does that make it so? And third; even if I agreed that one was higher, how does that prove the existence of a God? I don't follow your logic.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Because they are not IDENTICAL, if they are not equal/the same /equilivent then one has to be either lesser or greater, otherwise they would be Identical/the same/equal.
  
  Are you asking what determines which is greater and which is lesser? If so that doesn't matter in the proof, the fact that they are not Identical is all that is required.
  
  The definition of the term God is best, greatest, supreme, as stated in the proof.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, biscuits and rolls aren't the same. They are equal in some respects, not so in others. Does that make one lesser and one greater?
  
  Is a horse greater than a cow? Is Pepsi greater than Coke?
  
  This whole part of your argument doesn't make sense. Just because things are not identical it does not logically follow that one is greater than the other.
  
  And, as I said; even if I agreed that it did make one above the other that doesn't prove the existence of a God. If you prove that God exists, then (if I bought into the first part of your argument) I would probably buy into your second. But, you would first have to prove God exists, which your statement fails to do. Unless I'm seriously missing something.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Would you say that a house cat is a lesser being when compared to a lion?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why would I think that?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are they the same? Or is one stronger, faster possibly smarter than the other?
  
  What qualities we decide makes one being "better" than another doesn't really matter, the only thing that matters is that we admit some beings are greater than others.
  
  If strength is the quality, then the stronger lion is greater.
  If loyality then a dog would be the greater being...
  
  and so on. The fact is there are greater and lesser beings in existence.
  Beings we can see, touch, examine, and prove exist.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is kind of a flat comparison. Different animals have different attributes that appear to help them survive. It doesn't make them better, worse or less than any other animal. It simply makes them different.
  
  I would assume the lion would think he was better than the dog; if he could stop to think about it. But, the dog would consider himself better than the lion.
  
  You might consider the attributes of the lion better than those of the cat. I might think the cat's were better. But that doesn't change the fact that these are only a matter of our personal perception. It doesn't cause one animal to be of more value, higher in the chain, or more important in the web of life on earth than the other. Not that I can see.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So then since they are in your opinion all of equal value they are all the same, they are all identical.
  
  As stated in the proof "IF they are Not Identical" then...
  
  You claim they are Identical, which does not dis-prove the proof.
  
  So if all beings are Identical as you say, then all beings are also the best, supreme, therefore all beings are God, and that proves the existence of God.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Again, logical fallacies abound in your posts. Try not using them when you attempt to argue your case. See the list I provided, read them, understand them so that you have some hope of presenting your case.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You know, I guess, if you want to name something God that would work. I don't know that it serves any purpose renaming something we've already named; but it isn't really a precedent.
  
  If you are going to be renaming things, I'd like to be called goddess. Is that possible?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not renaming God.
  
  God is the supreme being, the best, the highest form of life.
  
  You are saying that all beings are the best, supreme, the highest form of life. If all beings are the highest form of life equally, then all beings are God.
  
  I don't agree with you, I believe that there are differences in the many forms of life in existence. Differences that make some life forms greater than others. So which ever life form is the greatest, that form of life is the supreme being. The supreme being is by definition God.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I was trying to be nice. It's a bogus argument; but I was attempting to negotiate a resolution.
  
  If I can't be called goddess, I see no other recourse than to explain to you that you can't claim proof that God exists when you begin with a false statement.
  
  And even if you prove that statement isn't false it doesn't prove the existence of God. At best, it would only prove that if one did exist he could be defined as such.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What false statement did I start out with?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If there are more than one forms of life and they are not identical, then one must be the lesser.
  
  That's not true. You choose to see one as lesser. That doesn't mean it is.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I was kinda curious to that statement as well.
  
  Men and women aren't Identical either, but are they not equal? For that matter Humans in general aren't identical in every aspect. Does this make one greater or lesser than another?
  I wonder....
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I won't say I wasn't rooting for him. The title goddess was sounding pretty good on the old lips.
  
  But, you are right. The problem with his argument goes quite a bit farther then just deciding what animals might be considered better than others.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The accepted definition of greater and lesser has to do with two objects not being equal, not being the same.
  
  Stating that two things exist that are not the same is a true statement.
  Fire exists, water exists they are not the same.
  
  If what we decide makes one better than the other is say the giving/support of life. Then water is greater because we can survive without fire but cannot survive without water. The bottom line being the characteristics that make them different create a lesser/greater relationship between them. We can argue all day about what specific quality is better and never agree. But that does not dis-prove the fact that a lesser/greater relationship exists. Anytime two things are not equal they by definition are either greater or lesser, otherwise they are equal, there is no other choice.
  
  Which means my statement is not false.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Question.
  
  Isn't the Sun, nothing more than a huge fireball? Without this fire, we couldn't survive either.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ...Again we can argue all day about the qualties of objects and never agree what specific quality makes one thing better or worse than another. The fact that they are not equal means by definition they are either greater or lesser. If they are not greater or lesser then they are equal.
  
  2=2 they are the same, they are equal. 2 does not equal 3 they are not the same, one of the two numbers is greater and one is lesser.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sounds like it is an interpretation of what we think is greater or lesser and therefore creating the illusion of what is or isn't equal.
  
  2=2 and 2<3 is a numeric value.
  
  One cannot place this type of value on life.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Even if I agree (which I don't) I still don't see how that proves God. Couldn't it be argued that it proves The Spaghetti Monster? Zeus?
  
  You are saying that simply because you choose to elevate one life form above another, that a life force we can't prove exists; exists. How does that follow?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am proving the existence of a supreme being, if the flying spaghetti monster is the supreme being, then the flying spaghetti monster is God.
  
  I'm not trying to prove any set common beliefs of the nature of God are true or false, only that God can be proven to exist.
  
  Not being able to see the top of a mountain does not dis-prove the existence of it. If I can see, touch, examine and study the bottom of that mountain and half-way up that mountain logic dictates that the unseen top must exist.
  
  If I can see, touch,examine and study a lower life form and a life form greater than that lower life-form then logic dictates that a top life-form must exist. Perhaps the greater of these two life-forms I am studying IS the top life-form perhaps not. Whatever life form turns out to be the top life-form is by definition God. Therefore God exists.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My point is, just because people might agree on the value of certain things; it doesn't follow that something else exists.
  
  Sure, it could imply that whatever you considered to be on the top heap was. But, that doesn't mean it would be called God.
  
  What if, by the attributes I considered the most valuable; a slug came out on top? Is that God?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If "it" is the supreme being, then "IT" is God, because God by definition IS the supreme being.
  
  What makes God... GOD? What quality or characteristic makes the supreme life form supreme?
  
  I Don't know. But I know I have proven that God, the supreme being, exists.
  
  And once again I have proven my proof to not be a fallacy.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you've proven it in your own mind. That really is all that matters. Don't you think?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The thing about truth is even when you don't like it, it is still truth.
  
  The inablity to dis-prove something, the inability to prove it false makes it a truth. So even though you don't want to admit I was correct, I was and am. Not just in my own mind. It isn't a delusional thought process. It is a logical step by step examination of reality of truth.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't want to argue with you, but you do start with a false statement. It doesn't matter how you continue on, it won't be true. Because you start with a false statement
  
  You cannot arbitrarily decide which life form is of more value than another.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not deciding which is greater, I'm only stating they are not equal.
  
  stating that 3 is not equal to 2 is not a false statement.
  Deluding yourself that 3=2 because you don't want one to be considered greater and one lesser is what your doing. But that is your fallacy not mine.
  
  There are greater and lesser forms of life. The inability to agree on what quality makes one greater and one lesser does not make them equal if they aren't.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But, who is deluding themselves here? Really. You assume it is within your power to determine what life form is of more value than another. You are making a very real argument for the case that you consider yourself to be a god.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Uh...no I'm not.
  
  I'm not saying it is in my power to decide which life form is greater and which is lesser. I'm not saying I can determine what is of more value nor what is of lesser. I am only stating that if they are not identical/equal then they must be either the greater or the lesser.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But it does not follow that, simply because things are different, one is greater than the other. On one level maybe one is greater, on another level, the other might be greater. It could also be argued that when every difference is taken into account they would be perceived as of equal value.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Again your stating that they are either equal or not. So am I.
  
  So...
  If they are equal they are God.
  If they are not equal the greater is God.
  
  Either way God exists.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But, that means simply that you are giving a label to the result of your argument.
  
  If all things are equal, therefore all things are God is your conclusion, then my conclusion would be that there is no God. By your argument.
  
  If your conclusion is that there is a highest form of life, therefore God exists; you'd have to point to which form of life is the highest. It would have to be agreed upon. I doubt you'd get an agreement from a believer. You would get agreement from some non believers, so the conclusion would still be; no real God exists.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Pure Fallacy.
  
  Do you have any proof to back up these statements?
  
  Giving a label? Accepting a predetermined and commonly agreed upon definition as being true?
  
  All things are not equal, if all things are equal there is only one thing. If all things are equal then there cannot be 2 temperatures, there cannot be 2 colors, there cannot be 2 sexes. Again being equal means being the same, being different means not being the same/not being equal. So no all things are not equal therefore all things are not God, the greatest thing is God.
  
  The only way for there to not be a supreme being is for there to not be any beings.
  
  Your Fallacy is in the erroneous belief that a consensus of what qualities constitute a supreme being as supreme, brings that being into existence, and that without that consensus a supreme being cannot exist. The consensus does not create nor destroy a supreme being, therefore a consensus is irrelevant to the existence or non-existence of a supreme being. Believing or not believing a thing is the supreme being does not make it the supreme being. Being the supreme being makes it the supreme being.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You seem to believe that different equates to some pecking order. That isn't true. (I'm beginning to hear Sesame Street in my head)
  
  So, out of curiosity, I'm going to give you a list. Please put the items in order, from lowest to highest.
  
  Dog, cat, woman, lion, aardvark, worm, man, cheesecake.
  
  I need to understand your mindset in order to continue this discussion.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  1) That entity that is better than all the rest.
  2) all the other entities on your list.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So, you don't believe there is a pecking order. You simply believe in a supreme being and are pretending to have proof. Why didn't you say that in the first place? I can live with that.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I do believe there is a pecking order, I simply don't know (nor care) what that order is.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You believe. Enough said. But, your argument for your belief is flawed. You don't need to convince anyone but yourself. It sounds as if you have.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It isn't flawed, your rebuttal is flawed.
  
  Knowing the pecking order, or not knowing the pecking order, in no way dis-proves the existence of that pecking order. Nor that there is an entity at the top of that pecking order.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The burden of proof lies in your court. Not mine. I'm simply saying you have not proven God. Don't feel bad. No one else has proven his existence yet, either.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  By the definition of the word equal, it doesn't mean things have to be the same (identical), they have to be alike (similar).
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In my original proof (for this very reason) I used the term Identical not equal and Identical is the correct term for the proof.
  
  We have fallen into using the similiar term equal which probably wasn't a good idea.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There is nothing that is completely identical (except clones). But that, in and of itself can not determine greater or lesser.
  
  Value (the greater and lessor) is a perceived idea of worth, nothing more and it varies from person to person (animal to animal, plant to plant).
  
  This would mean that what is perceived as "God" is a varied as everything in the universe. And in this case "God" would be nothing more than a title placed on an item of immense personal value.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So, first you admit that the conditions you have set up don't really matter at all other than the fact we admit they do matter, even though you have failed to describe them in regards to relating to your logical fallacies.
  
  No, there is mass confusion on your part attempting to discern one from the other.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes and no, and even maybe.
  
  Could you be more vague?
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  TJenkins602posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  " Is Pepsi greater than Coke?"
  
  YES!!!!
  
  Thank God for Pepsi...
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Someone who has climbed the mountain and seen the truth. I am humbled to read those simple words of wisdom. I concur.
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  Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Mikel,
  
  It has been a while since we’ve shared together.
  
  I gather from you hubs and posts that this is your original logic since you don’t credit any other source. Still, your logic is flawed and it may be leading you to a flawed conclusion (and maybe not). Let’s begin with your original premise: Life form “A” is NOT IDENTICAL to life form “B”. Now, NOT IDENTICAL in this statement simply means they are different or not the same. Your conclusion that “A” has to be lesser or greater than “B” is false. Their not being identical doesn’t mean “A” is lesser or greater than “B”. Of all the characteristics shared by “A” and “B”, it only takes one that is not common to both to declare they are not IDENTICAL. For example, "A" and "B" are different colors therefore not IDENTICAL. But the different colors do not make one larger then the other, or of lesser importance than the other. They are deemed to be just different.
  
  In additon, you also make another highly personal assumption that appears to be false.
  You seem to assume that other people perceive God as a life form and you speak on behalf of all humanity by calling “that form of life, God.” That fact that some members of humanity do not perceive God as a life form proves your assumption is not universally true and just a product of your own perception.
  
  In the end, your self-proclaimed proof is certainly not a logical proof that led you to your beliefs. Rather, it is a flawed rationale constructed to support your pre-existing beliefs. If your proof serves to describe your world and it helps you to live a better life than, by all means, follow your bliss. But you must also recognize it as a very personal viewpoint and not one likely to apply to others.
  
  Mikel, it is always a pleasure to swap ideas with you. Keep on truckin’
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  As the conversation goes on subtle word changes for clarity occur, coming into the conversation in the middle, using the changed words as a starting point changes the meaning you take away from the conversation. So here is the begining point and I guess we can start again from there.
  
  I can prove God exists.
  
  To start off we need to understand the terms, the meanings of the words.
  
  The definitions:
  
  Supreme- Greatest in power, authority, or rank; paramount or dominant. 2. Greatest in importance, degree, significance, character, or achievement.
  
  God- The best, the greatest form of life in existence, The Supreme Being.
  
  Life Form- an entity or being that is living or alive.
  
  Existence- is the world we are aware of through our senses, and that persists independently without them.
  
  The Proof:
  
  If there are more than one forms of life and they are not identical, then one must be the lesser. If there is a lowest form of life, then there must be a highest form of life.
  
  The highest form of life (whatever that is) is the Supreme Being... humanity has come to call that form of life, God.
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  Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hi again, Mikel,
  Thank you for your prompt reply and for taking me back to the beginning. Now, I shall start from the beginning also.
  
  I gather from you hubs and posts that this is your original logic since you don’t credit any other source. Still, your logic is flawed and it may be leading you to a flawed conclusion (and maybe not). Let’s begin with your original premise: Life form “A” is NOT IDENTICAL to life form “B”. Now, NOT IDENTICAL in this statement simply means they are different or not the same. Your conclusion that “A” has to be lesser or greater than “B” is false. Their not being identical doesn’t mean “A” is lesser or greater than “B”. Of all the characteristics shared by “A” and “B”, it only takes one that is not common to both to declare they are not IDENTICAL. For example, "A" and "B" are different colors therefore not IDENTICAL. But the different colors do not make one larger then the other, or of lesser importance than the other. They are deemed to be just different.
  
  In additon, you also make another highly personal assumption that appears to be false.
  You seem to assume that other people perceive God as a life form and you speak on behalf of all humanity by calling “that form of life, God.” The fact that some members of humanity do not perceive God as a life form proves your assumption is not universally true and just a product of your own perception.
  
  In the end, your self-proclaimed proof is certainly not a logical proof that led you to your beliefs. Rather, it is a flawed rationale constructed to support your pre-existing beliefs. If your proof serves to describe your world and it helps you to live a better life than, by all means, follow your bliss. But you must also recognize it as a very personal viewpoint and not one likely to apply to others.
  
  Mikel, it is always a pleasure to swap ideas with you. Keep on truckin’
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  God is commonly described as Immortal, Immortal is a description of an entity/ form of life/ life form/ being that does not die.
  
  The references to God the immortal being/entity are in almost every dictionary I could find.
  
  As to the primary colors: Your example of different colors not necessarily being lesser/greater only different. Is proven flawed by the fact that the primary colors are given greater importance therefore different colors do share a lesser/greater relationship.(not liking the truth doesn't make it untrue.)
  
  I understand you want there to be a tie between two entities that are not identical, yet no one can provide me an example of two non identical entities whose differences don't cause one to be either lesser or greater than the other entity in some way. Which proves my original point, "If there are more than one forms of life and they are not identical, then one must be the lesser."
  
  An Immortal being is a form of life, a form of life that does not die. God may or may not be immortal but God is definately by definition a form of life and not just any form of life but the supreme example of it.
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  Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  I’m back. Thanks, Mikel, for keeping up with me.
  
  I accept that you are unable to produce a dictionary that defines God using the words “a form of life” and, also, that you really believe God is commonly defined by your made up definition as a “form of life.” The fact remains, you can not claim your definition is universally accepted unless you produce a dictionary with a definition of God as “a form of life.” Until you do, your “proof” is only of value to you.
  
  Secondly, “NOT IDENTICAL” means not the same or not alike. Feel free to look that up in your Funk and Wagner. The claim “If there are more than one forms of life and they are not identical, then one must be the lesser” is a false conclusion unless you reply on your made-up definition of “NOT IDENTICAL”.
  
  You are welcome to believe God exists. I encourage you to do so if it works in your life. But your “proof” needs a lot more work.
  
  Be blessed, Mikel.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
  
  The term "form of life" is not a term that dis-proves the proof. It is merely a description of an entity, another term "life form" or "entity" or "organism" can easily replace "form of life" but I feel the latter is more general and as such it carries less baggage.
  
  The term Identical likewise can be replaced with other similar descriptive words like equal or the same but your premise that things can be different and yet be Identical doesn't hold water I'm afraid. Being different by definition means they are not equal, identical or the same. Being different one from the other makes them have qualities of a lesser/greater relationship.
  
  So the proof stands and is accurate, sorry you don't see it.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Where did you get that definition? Did you make it up yourself?
  
  Fallacy. You have not defined what is "lesser" or what is "highest" and have fallaciously stated if one is lesser, then the other must be higher. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
  
  Fallacy. Without definitions for lesser and highest, your conclusion is meaningless.
  
  Failed.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Thanks for playing.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're welcome. Although, you probably will continue to flog that dead horse never understanding the fallacies contained within that fail your "proof"
  
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But isn't it true that there are 3 "primary" colors which are the basis for the creation of all the other colors? This proves that even in the world of colors there is a pecking order and some colors are greater and some lesser.
  
  (It's good to see you too Q)
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The websters definition which is the source for the definitions is a commonly accepted definition by Humanity. Saying Humanity has come to use the term God to mean a supreme being is an accurate statement and has nothing to do with my personal beliefs, it is simply humanity's language therefore humanity has come to call the concept that.(in which ever language you care to use/translate the term to)
  
  ***and it is my original logic.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night:
  
  Psalms 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visits him?
  
  God is completely superior to human beings. We are his image not his duplicate.
  
  You really have to go into tedious amounts of detail to get even the simplest message through. You'll know who they are after a while. Its part of their game or they really are that way, who knows and i don't wanna know.
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  Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Mikel,
  
  Please do not introduce primary colors to explain your claim “NOT IDENTICAL” means one must be better or worse. The use of color in my example demonstrates how “NOT IDENTICAL” does not determine one is bigger or better, only different. Defend your proof. “NOT IDENTICAL” means not the same or not alike. The claim “If there are more than one forms of life and they are not identical, then one must be the lesser” is a false conclusion.
  Alas, we do agree on this! Now look at what you said…
  I challenge you to produce a widely accepted dictionary that defines God as “a form of life.” The best you will find is “supreme or supernatural being.” You use a personal, self-created definition of God as a life form and then erroneously compare life forms to conclude, “if there are more than one forms of life and they are not identical, then one must be the lesser.”
  
  I hope you realize that I do not question the conclusion of your proof only the logic you used to arrive at it. Your conclusion may still be correct but it is not a “proof”. If I built a proof and others found the logical framework lacking, I know what I would do. I would take my proof to the philosophy department at the nearest college or university and I would ask a professor for an opinion, not about the conclusion, but about the logic contained within my proof.
  
  I hope you have a great evening.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So, you admit to not knowing what logical fallacies are if you can't even go through the list and see them yourself in your Hub?
  
  Again --->
  
  After going back through some of your posts, it appears you have no interest in listening to others when it comes to try to explain those fallacies.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  many of those fallacies do not relate nor apply when God is in the picture.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I know you choose to ignore reality when it suits your purposes, no need to remind me of that, thanks.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  no, what i said is correct.
  you choose not to accept it.
  and that is your reality and that's the only thing i am reminded of
  thanks
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paarsurreyposted 12 years ago
Loosing my Religion

What is your religion? please
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awareposted 12 years ago
resolve . endeavor to persevere . if religion is all it takes to take the hope in a god from you . you've been beaten by weakling .
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getitriteposted 12 years ago
I lost my belief when I realized that I don't want any of the things that blind belief offers. I don't want to go to heaven at all...I have no desire to go to such a place, or to slavishly worship an old unjust curmudgeon, begging him for eternal life. HOW LAME!

If eternal life comes with such miserably oppressive strings attached, then I prefer to just be dead.
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree...what's wrong with giving the worms a feed and helping them rebuild the soil for the next generation....the full cycle.
  
  Much better to be dead than to spend an eternity listening to the religiously infirm retelling how god found their car keys!
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  When it really comes down to it, the concept of heaven is miserable, but some people have such a neurotic fear of death, that they will take eternal life under ANY circumstances...knowing full well that they have accepted a situation that is void of happiness.
  
  This tyrant god can keep his eternal life.
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  TJenkins602posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  According to those people, the others will get eternal life as well, it will just be in a torture chamber MWAHAHAAAAA!!!
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Im sure He intends too.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  God is the only thing that is rock solid!
  
  The world system has gone crazy,greed and power in ones self is their god.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I bet it is against the law (in Heaven) to murder someone while you are there.
  
  You wouldn't want to be someplace where you couldn't kill somebody, and you would get kicked out?
  
  I guess Ya do have that choice!.... Well in that case? We all are going to miss Ya.
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Sally's Troveposted 12 years ago
I lost my religion when I was 13 and boys became important. In my church, thinking about boys and the carnal aspect of those thoughts was a sin. Before that, I wanted to be a nun. Rather than confess my "sin" I turned away from the church and also from God. I knew what I was going through was natural...I wish I knew a priest, or a nun, who understood at the time. So the institution of the church drove me away from faith.

Now, I feel differently. I don't believe in the God and in the Christ that defined my childhood, but I do believe in a greater power. Maybe God and Christ are parts of that greater power. I do have faith in something much greater than I am, and I put myself in its hands.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Good for you.
  
  I appreciated the honesty of your post.
  
  I dont understand the answers to many questions,but I know my life is better since I met Him.
  
  Life is a journey and we are all the same ,yet very different because of circumstances and choices.
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Jeramiposted 12 years ago
He ask ? the importance, purpose, and relevance
==============================

It IS "relevance" that "importance" creates "purpose". (???)
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Captain Redbeardposted 12 years ago
I think it's odd that you want to talk about faith but not use scripture. Very well, I 'll play ball. I try to not use scripture anyway when talking with people as it seems to turn me into some sort of bigget or hater in their eyes when I do.

I think it's funny that people look down on themselves or non believers or even believers look down on other believers when they have doubt yet if we looked at practicly every single story in the bible almost everyone that I ever read on had doubt in their God or in themselves to which God gave them a task. Moses said that he couldn't do it, Jonah had fear, so on and so forth up to Christ who had no desire to suffer the cross but only to serve his father in heavens will.

When I read Psalms I find the most comforting thing is that the Psalmist most of the time seemed to have doubt and worry and fear and wanted to give up and turn their bones over to the birds and beasts but by the end of their complianing or crying or whatever they always rested on one thought. How good God has been to them and if he really is the same today as he was yestereday and is promised to be tomorrow then what doubt could challange that?

My marriage has almost fallen to pieces twice, my daughter almost died at birth, my parents divorced when I was child and I was homeless by the time I was 12. The woes in my life are seemingly endless however they do have an end. The joys that I can credit to my God however, I could never think of them all. I know that not everything in life will go my way, and I know that there will be some people who will read this with mockery and laughter and say things un called for but that's ok. I'm cool with it. I am secure in who I am and where my life is heading. I just wanted to take the time here to tell you that everyone has thought that. If someone tells you they havent then they havent believed long enough or they are lying to you. It's just a matter of resting on the foundation laid of rock instead of sand my friend.
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  Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not fair! You said you wouldn’t use scripture in anyway.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But I never quoted a book or chapter nary a verse number was used.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  scripturephobics
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earnestshubposted 12 years ago
Is this some of the religion you are losing?

God Will Kill Children

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

Kill Men, Women, and Children

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

God Kills all the First Born of Egypt

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

Kill Old Men and Young Women

"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

God Will Kill the Children of Sinners

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

More Rape and Baby Killing

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

I did use scripture though
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey earnestshub; hope all is well on the down under side.
  By any chance, do you know if any of those threats come to pass?
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Soitainly Jerami! It's in the book. God's word ya know!
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  then you DO believe what is written.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And walk in love, [esteeming and delighting in one another] as Christ loved us and gave Himself up for us, a slain offering and sacrifice to God [for you, so that it became] a sweet fragrance. Ephesians 5: 2
  
  Love one another with brotherly affection [as members of one family], giving precedence and showing honor to one another.
  Romans 12: 10
  
  Know, recognize, and understand therefore that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God, Who keeps covenant and steadfast love and mercy with those who love Him and keep His commandments, to a thousand generations. Deuteronomy 7: 9
  
  How precious is Your steadfast love, O God! The children of men take refuge and put their trust under the shadow of Your wings.
  Psalm 36: 7
  
  He who does not love has not become acquainted with God [does not and never did know Him], for God is love. 1 John 4: 8
  
  But God shows and clearly proves His [own] love for us by the fact that while we were still sinners, Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) died for us. Romans 5: 8
  
  I love those who love me, and those who seek me early and diligently shall find me. Proverbs 8: 17
  
  But I tell you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Matthew 5: 44
  
  No one has greater love than to give up his own life for his friends. John 15: 13
  
  and that one that ticks you off the most
  john 3:16
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And you think the chastisement of God is not necessary?
  If we look at moses life him being in the egyptian military and raised in oppulence and we see that God took him from all that and put him through rigorous training, what do we see?
  We see a man who did exactly what God wanted him to do. He carried out Gods will for Gods people in Godly fashion. What we do not see is a self serving evangelist promoting his own ideas and leading the people astray.
  If God gave any of us and i use this phrase generally so as not to point fingers, but if God gave the ministry of healing to people prone to ego would we be any better than benny hinn or prophecy, would be better than Campers?
  We need to look at the bigger picture and realize that all these things work to produce a people of God that are not in any way like natural man. In order to do the work of God people have to die to self.
  And we certainly, as your post makes us well aware, know what happens to people who avoid the chastening of God.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Good word
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Covered the bases
  thanks
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awareposted 12 years ago
Id rather be stricken deaf . Before letting a single uplifting gospel music note touch my ear !
Really!?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Aww...well from where Im sitting ,you kinda look 'earless' anyway ,so you should be quite safe
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RookerySpoonerposted 12 years ago
I think it is surprisingly easy to lose a religious faith. It is for this reason, that people refuse to look at or listen to evidence to the contrary, because they are worried about being convinced by it. However, once Pandora's box has been opened and faith has been lost, it is very difficult to reclaim it.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But not impossible.
  A major problem is self. We are wired to work in a world that demands we do our very best and we are taught that we only get what we deserve and work for. The world loves a winner. We have this checklist of successes and failures and we tend to condemn ourselves for failure - but none of this is Gods way.
  God knows we are frail and that we will make mistakes, even that we will try and try and not achieve the goal or that we will achieve a goal only to lose it in a small test and condemn ourselves for failure, but this is not the activity of christianity.
  God died for us, he gave us that and a new covenant not guided by rules and regulations or steered by our works and our efforts, but by simple faith on Him to change us in His time - not our time - and he accepts our failures knowing that when we earnestly desire change to come, presto! it has arrived.
  there is not one scripture that says, This type of person cannot be saved except one:
  Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
  Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
  Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
  "Seeing as they... shame." speaks of a present to future tense of action. These people who are diligent in reviling God and shame Him daily, while they are doing this thing they cannot be saved, until somewhere in their hearts a soft spot develops and there is then a window of opportunity for them to truthfully hear the word of God and have it sink and produce change. But until they stop warring against God they cannot (in that state) be saved.
  But ALL others can be saved.
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Greek Oneposted 12 years ago
often times, when I visit the Hubpage forums, I tend to think there is no God
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, you almost had a goddess. But Mikel just had to be difficult.
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  Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  what's a Mikel?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The guy with the God proof. We had almost come to an agreement, but at the last minute he said I couldn't be a goddess. Go figure.
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  Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  that really depends what you look like, doesnt it?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not really. I could be Venus or Persephone.
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  Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I was once compared to the Greek God of porn... Testiclees
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
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earnestshubposted 12 years ago
God Will Kill Children

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

Nice avoidance you mean.
Nasty psychotic little god!
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Isaiah 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
  Isaiah 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that brings good tidings, that publishes peace; that brings good tidings of good, that publishes salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigns!
  Isaiah 52:8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.
  Isaiah 52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
  Isaiah 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
  
  how poetically lovely
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LucidDreamsposted 12 years ago
God doesnt answer prayers...things happen and we give the so-called God credit. I hate to sound so anti-religous but I am. I grew up a good christian boy and served God.

I like to keep learning and growing... I am not a follower..If there truly was a God, according to the text people love to follow, we will know his word.

He has never spoken to me personally....I could say that certain things which happened had his hand in it and I believe but....yeah, I dont think so!

Too many recent discoveries have happened that just dont jive with the bible and most religions which on average were created in the 100 bc to 200 ad era.

Civilizations that have been proven to be very advanced have existed for over 12,000 years. They did not have a bible, they did not have commandments, they did worship gods....But the God we worship now was not even in play yet.

Guess the earlier civilizations did not need rules to follow. Thats right, God didnt care about earlier people or dinosaurs and so on.

Then again...the God most people follow today did not exist yet because we made him up.

Religions will continue to adapt to each new discovery by scientists. It is in their best interests to do this. Take a good look at Catholics and learn what this particular religion has had to do just to survive and it will really scare you. Seriously, dive into the history of this religion and learn how it is the biggest sore you will ever see on society, Other religions have followed and do the same.

More wars are fought over religion then any other reason....How many religions are there exactly? Way too many to name. Somehow eah one believes they are right. The truth is, these are man made and distributed for the profit of the higher ups.

If God exists the way most humans believe....what took so long for him to spread his word and let people know he existed? I cannot stand to hear...God works in mysterious ways one more time!

Christianity has only been in play for a little over 2000 years. Guess what happened the 10,000 years before that just did not matter to God!
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You know that Christianity branched off from the Jewish faith right? And the Jews were worshipping the same God long before they referred to them selves as Jews or anything other than people. Their religion is washed in tradition and ritual. Islam also believes in God or Allah and they branched off from Jewish faith aswell. There is actually a pretty clear line of where the God mentioned in the New Testament written by the Christians were before Christ showed up.
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LucidDreamsposted 12 years ago
It seems as if as a Christian, you can wait until the very last minute and ask for forgivenes. I have to admit, it feels a little strange to voice my true opinions.

A feeling of betrayal towards the true god right? You have to get over it just as I am. The only false god we are worshipping is the phony's who wrote this silly junk to begin with. Probably just another way to control peoples minds and finances before we were educated enough to know the difference and it stuck.

Why didnt our god exist for the people who lived many centuries before us? Let me tell you why...because we made him up to help control our people and finances thru government and religion.

You wouldnt be worshipping god if someone else handnt told you about it. You feel it in your soul now that you have been made to believe so.

Adam and Eve were here on earth were they not? So whats the story for the rest of the universe? Dont have one.....religions will find a way to adapt when we keep learning and exploring new places and worlds.

The chances of life on other planets troughout the universe is almost assured. Cant wait to hear what type of bible they have and what it says?

Beyond that..... I would say the fact that religions we know have only surfaced within the past 2200 years goes to show that the 10,000 years previous did not matter right?
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Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years ago
Maybe an Algebra lesson could help.

In Algebra we don't know what number is represented by the variables we use. We use letters to represent the variables.

If X does not equal Y then X is either greater than Y or it is less than Y. There aren't any other alternatives.

So not knowing what specific number is represented by X and Y does not dis-prove the very basic FACT that the X,Y relationship is one of Equality or one of NON-equality. There is no other option.

If X=2 and X does not equal Y then Y is any number in existence except 2. Because if Y were 2 X would equal Y, they would be the same.

Again:
THERE ARE ONLY TWO CHOICES
1) Equality
2) Non-equality

Being both equal and NON-equal is a contradiction in terms. That FACT is what your failing to understand.

If there are more than one numbers one will be less and one will be higher. One will be lowest (-infinity) and one will be highest (+infinity).

in common english: If there are more than one forms of life (represented by X and Y) and they are not identical, then one must be the lesser. If there is a lowest form of life, then there must be a highest form of life.

The proof stands, is accurate and proven.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's a lesson in algebra? Let me give you a quick lesson in life. You cannot assign a numeric value to different forms of life.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly my point and why I refuse to get sucked into your requirement of providing a pecking order for everything in existence.
  
  but our inability to complete that task does not prove that all life forms are equal, which they obviously are not or they would be the same life form.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Let me ask you this. What weighs more; a pound of bacon, or 16 oz. of flour?
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  to tag on to this.
  
  I have a better question...... Which weights more a Pound of Gold or a Pound of Lead?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How many ounces are in a pound again?
  
  If they are they same then they are the same, if they are not the same then they are not the same.
  
  In this attempt you're trying to confuse the issue of equal weight of different objects.
  
  That a ton of butter weighs a ton and a ton of gun powder weighs a ton does not make the butter, gun powder. Light a match and I'll prove it to you.
  
  You loving "all God's creatures big and small" equally does NOT make them equal life forms.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And, claiming "all God's creatures big and small" are not equal without offering any explanations as to how and why they are not equal makes your proof completely pointless.
  
  See how that works?
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Butter and Gun Powder both burn in open air. Compress either one and add heat and you will get an explosion. Butter (oil) is flamable just as is gun powder. Stability is a different matter though.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But, you did provide a pecking order for your proof; lesser, lower, higher highest... but, you didn't explain or define it, hence it's useless.
  
  How are they not equal, explain yourself?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  If X is one thing and Y is something else, yet to be defined, your Algebra lessons and conclusions are fallacious. Not only that, but your explanation about God has nothing to do with Algebra, numbers, X or Y.
  
  So, what does X, Y and the number 2 represent in your explanation?
  
  You still have not shown or defined what is equal and what is not in your explanations, making them totally useless.
  
  No, you are failing to explain.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So, what is defined as lesser, lowest, higher, highest? Are you talking about their levels of cholesterol, their use of underarm deodorants or maybe you're talking about intelligence?
  
  We will never know, hence your 'proof' is irrelevant and completely laughable.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That works for math.
  
  But who gets to place the value on life? Who gets to determine what life form is greater,lessor or equal? And what are we to use to measure this?
  
  Each and every life form requires another life form to live (food). So which is greater? Example, Cows need vegetation for food, does this make the cow greater that the vegetation because it is higher on the food chain, or is the vegetation greater because the cow relies on it for survival? So the vegetation dies for the cow to live, but when the cow dies (and not used for human food) it provides nutrients for the vegetation to grow, either by decay or through the feces of carnivore.
  
  Only humans judge life forms according to a "value". Every other life form enjoys the cycle of life. Each relying on each other for continued life of the species, which makes none of them lesser or greater than the others.
  
  The only Life Form that would be greater is one that does not depend on another for survival.
  And even "God" depends on faith, belief and worship of his followers to survive. Because without this faith, belief or worship from humans, there would be no such thing as "God"
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Who or What gets to decide the value of all life and thier varied positions in the pecking order?...I don't know.
  
  ...But they aren't all the same, therefore they aren't all equal.
  
  God does not depend on faith. God does NOT need our belief in God. People depend on faith, People Need beliefs. God does not need. People need.
  
  Believing or not believing I am Mikel G Roberts does not make me Mikel G Roberts. Being Mikel G Roberts makes me Mikel G Roberts.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly, which is the problem in a nutshell.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ok.
  Are men and women equal? They are not the same sex.
  What about a white man and a black man are they equal? They are not the same color.
  Are two male lions 3 years in age equal? They are the same, both male, both lions, and both the same age.
  
  If there was no belief in "God", there would be no "God".
  
  If I believed you to be George, then to me you would be George, it wouldn't matter to me what you called yourself.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Again your asking me to supply "the pecking order"
  
  I don't know what the pecking order is nor do I care what the pecking order is.
  
  The values that I hold as more dear/greater/better determine the placement listing in MY pecking order, as it will in everyone else's personal listing. Those lists will undoubtedly be different for every individual.
  
  None of which dis-proves the existence of a pecking order.
  
  Belief does not bring something into existence. If believing something created it then the world would be flat, because the vast majority of humanity at one time believed it to be flat.
  
  Being round makes it round, even if no one believes it.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am not asking you what is the pecking order. I am asking how it can be determined.
  
  If the pecking order is decided by the person and varies with each person, then it is nothing more than an opinion and is not factual.
  
  Which means "God" is nothing more than a person's opinion based on their perceived pecking order. Which would mean "God" is not a true life form, but rather a figment of one's imagination and beliefs.
  
  If beliefs do not bring things into existance, then how does a creationist hold that God created something from nothing?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Again.
  
  Belief does create.
  
  It is or it isn't.
  
  That's as simple as I can make it.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A belief in "god/s" created religion. A belief of freedom for all men created the United States. A belief in equality created minority rights. A belief in Christ created the Christian.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I do not believe mere humans have that ability.
  
  Agreed. Believing your the best doesn't make you the best. Being the best makes you the best. One is opinion one is fact.
  
  No. God is God even if no one "believes". Being God makes God, God.
  
  No. Being God makes God, God. Being the best makes one the best, even if no one knows it or believes it.
  
  You're assuming that creating requires belief. You're assuming an understanding of the process of creation. No one knows how something came from nothing. Saying it requires belief and simply by believing something makes it so is fallacy.
  
  Having an opinion does not make the opinion a fact. Being a fact makes it a fact.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You stated earlier, that God was "God- The best, the greatest form of life in existence, The Supreme Being." This does not agree with your above statement, As it has to be determined who or what is the "Best, the greatest for of life" and as you said earlier, that determination varies person to person, which means it is a question of a person's opinion. Not factual.
  There are no facts without proof. We wasn't there, so we follow our beliefs on who, what or how the universe was created. So the creation, either Big Bang or God created, is based in beliefs.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not knowing who God is does not destroy God. Not knowing who or what is the best does not mean there isn't one. Not knowing which thing is best does not mean a best does not exist. Having 4,000 different opinions by 4,000 different people does not change a fact, the Fact remains a fact irregardless of opinion.
  
  No. Facts are facts even if they haven't been proven by humanity. A Fact is a fact even if every person in existence denies the validity of that fact. Facts are facts even if humanity doesn't know the fact exists. Believing a fact incorrect does not make it incorrect. The act of being a fact makes it a fact.
  
  1+1=2 Fact.
  Disbelief doesn't make it untrue. Not knowing 1+1=2 does not make it untrue. Not understanding how or why 1+1=2 does not make it become unfactual. Being unaware that a fact exists, doesn't make it non-existent. Believing 1+1=4645 does not make it true.
  
  Discovering something is untrue, that was believed to be a fact, for instance: The Earth is flat. Doesn't mean facts can be incorrect, it means the incorrect belief never was a fact, we just (mistakenly) thought it was.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, Fact is fact. And no amount of denying it changes that correct?
  
  Then why do so many still believe in "God creating the universe" when science has proven (fact), that belief as false?
  
  You are contradicting yourself in your replies to the questions others and myself have proposed to you.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Can you prove to me that God didn't create existence through the big bang?
  
  Can you prove that science isn't the discovery of How God did some of what God does?
  
  Can you prove it has to be either creation or evolution?
  
  I believe God created us through evolution.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Of course, using your logic...
  
  "God is God even if no one "believes". Being God makes God, God."
  
  The Big Bang is the Big Band even if no one "believes". Occurring as the Big Bang makes the Big Bang, The Big Bang.
  
  See how easy that was?
  
  Given the fact you have chosen to start from a premise wherein your God exists and actually DID create the universe, we can pretend for a moment that your premise is correct, and if so, then it is quite obvious we are in fact discovering what God does. Inevitably and incontrovertibly.
  
  So, once again, we need to go back to your premise wherein your God exists and if He does exist, did he have anything to do with the creation of the universe.
  
  See how that works?
  
  That's really nice. Wonderful. I'm so happy for you.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Can you prove that he did?
  
  It is not my stance on this topic that is in question.
  
  I am only asking questions and opposing thoughts to your point of view, of which you still haven't valided or proven.
  
  So far, the only thing I can see from this conversation, is that "God", from your thought process, is as varied as there are people on earth. And since the "pecking order" is determined by the individual, and the greatest of the beings is "God", then "God" can only exist from what the individual interpretes to be "God".
  
  You have not proven "God" as fact, You have only suggested that "God" is a personal interpretation of a self made "pecking order" within the beings of life.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  No (and I don't believe God is a he). My point on this topic is merely this: The belief that scientific discoveries have somehow disproved the existence of God is in correct. Science is not the path to proof that God does not exist. Science is the discovery of how God did some of what God does. Discovering that there was a Big Bang and evolution does not dis-prove the possibility that God created that Big Bang. It hasn't been proven that it was one or the other. At humanities current level of understanding both Creation and Evolution are completely compatible ideas and both are possible.
  
  No. God is whatever God is inspite of all our diverse unproven opinions, most of which will probably be incorrect.
  
  No. The individual's opinion of what the pecking order should be, based on thier subjective rating system, is not what determines the "true" pecking order. I do not believe humanity is capable of determining the "actual" pecking order. However the pinnacle of that actual pecking order is by definition the supreme being, commonly called God. That entity exists regardless of and unaffected by, all the beliefs/disbeliefs and opinions of humanity.
  
  Again, No. I have proven "GOD" exists.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, based from your responses...
  
  It sounds as if all humans might quite possibly be worshipping the wrong "God", if we are to follow your train of thought.
  
  If everyone's opinions on who or what "God" is, are based on personal perception, then it is quite possible that all but a very select few are completely wrong.
  
  And if you have in fact proven the there is in fact a "God", then why are not all believers? People believe facts (well most do),
  To prove "God" that you are decribing, one would have to prove an unanimous agreement on who or what the greater being is, which you haven't done. So far, you have said that there is a greater being, but your version is different than mine, or Sam's or Sally's. This means, if there is a greater being, then no-one even knows what it is.
  I maintain that all life forms are completely equal. Therefore, by your reasoning, we are either all "Gods" or none of us are.
  
  I, and I am sure, almost every single other poster will agree, that you have not proven that there is a "God" based on the logic you have used.
  
  And in saying this, I am not saying that there is or isn't a "God". I am saying that you haven't proved it. "God" is still nothing more than our personal beliefs, while some feel that "God" is in fact real and has been revealed to them, others feel "God" is nothing more than a mythical fantasy.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe you should read the hub.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then, your entire "proof" crumbles because it is based entirely on how you define the pecking order YOU created; higher, lower, etc.
  
  Being the best at what? Please explain.
  
  Circular reasoning. Another fallacy. Something cannot come into existence simply because you assert it makes itself exist.
  
  Round and round we go... spin faster, faster, faster...
  
  That is exactly what we've been trying to point out to you.
  
  Where are the facts that support your Gods existence?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then, we have nothing to go on, your proof is pointless without explanation.
  
  Exactly, then someone came along with an "explanation" and the belief changed.
  
  We are still waiting for your explanation.
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5. 71
  Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Mikel, Mikel, Mikel,….
  The rules of algebra can not be applied as rules of logic. Algebra and logic are two different disciplines. Please read up on how to design a logical proof. Your knowledge of algebra is leading you astray, my friend.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Got Proof? Algebra is a very logical science and is based in logic. Therefore is it very useable for this type of proof.
  
  Fallacy. They are in fact one and the same. Mathematics is one of the purest logical sciences because of it's objectivity.
  
  No it isn't, it is clearly illustrating my proven point.
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  Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The flaw in your logic is called a False Analogy. "A False Analogy is a faulty instance of an Argument from Analogy." What is an Argument from Analogy? ”It is the process of analogical inference involving the comparison of the shared properties of two or more things, and from this basis infering that they also share some further property." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy)
  
  When comparing “forms of life” you can not specify SOME properties of each are NOT IDENTICAL and then conclude ALL properties of each are NOT IDENTICAL. The property of lesser/greater could be equal in life forms even if they have other properties that are NOT IDENTICAL. Furthermore, you offer no proof that forms of life have a property called lesser/greater.
  
  I admit that your final conclusion may be correct, Mikel. But, setting our personal beliefs aside, your proof is flawed and your conclusion invalid even if it is true.
  
  Look at what happens to one’s logic if you don’t specify the properties being compared. Gold and lead ARE forms of metals and they are not identical, then one MUST weigh less than the other. It’s possible to substitute other conclusions that may be true but are still quite invalid:
  ...then one must have more value than the other.
  …then one must be yellow.
  …then one must have a different atomic structure.
  These conclusions may be true but the logical argument is invalid because the stated analogy is faulty.
  
  Keep your faith, Mikel, but give up on your “proof” in its present form. The latter is flawed.
  
  Thanks for your patience with my comments. You are a true gentleman.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Identifying the difference between two life forms is not essential. Quantifying every minute detail, every way two entities are the same and then how they differ is only important if your goal is to rate them in the pecking order.
  
  Which I have stated repeatedly that I am not. The last paragraph of the hub says this about my proof:
  
  Disappointed?
  
  Many have expressed a disapointment with this proof. Saying it doesn't prove anything at all. What they mean by that is it doesn't prove one group is right and another group is wrong about the nature of God. It doesn't provide support of what they believe to be the true nature of God. They say it doesn't force a consenses therefore it is useless. There is no power in the proof to make that group of people over there shut up about what they believe is true. That disappointment stems from them not getting what they were wanting, Power over other people.
  
  They wanted this proof to give them the power of righteousness over another group of people. They wanted to be able to use the proof of God's existence to enforce thier view of right and wrong. They were expecting it to make it so everyone would have to conform to an absolute standard of conduct and belief.
  
  It is true, this proof does not do any of that, it merely proves that God exists.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  You have not proven that "God" exists. You have only provide what you use as proof for the existance of "God".
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Pure honesty? Or, something entirely different?
  
  It's interesting that you would make that claim openly on the very same forum in which many here have expressed their reasons why your proof is gumbo, and you have gone and made up something entirely different while completely ignoring what they said.
  
  It is truly remarkable the depths you believers will sink to defend your God.
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  0
  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It isn't a proof Mikel. Disagreeing doesn't imply you are right. It means you are unwilling to accept the fact that your 'proof' is not what you think it is.
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Mikel G Robertsposted 12 years ago
Here's your sign.
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1. 58
  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I suspect that you're not going to explain yourself. Failed.
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Disappearingheadposted 12 years ago
I've been away with work for a couple days so it's only now that I've had a chance to see where this thread went. Thanks for all the useful and honest answers here, and the debates that followed.

Apologies for the misspelling in the title though. God didn't point that out to me.
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pinedalaleineSposted 12 years ago
you need a revival in your life..and you are not a believer..You dont know God that much..
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1. 61
  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Please provide supporting evidence for your claims.
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LucidDreamsposted 12 years ago
It is impossible to really know God as he never makes himself available to us. We just have to have FAITH! Many say they see Gods work each day but that again is believers having faith this is Gods work.

When did the God you follow become a reality to people who worshipped him. Bet it was just a few thousand years ago at best. Why? Because the God that most Christians worship did not even exist until then. Althouth humans have existed for many thousands of years before that. A man made religion to explain why we exist and the hopes for a after life.
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lgallmanposted 12 years ago
I am right there with you Disappearinghead; and couldn't have said it any better!
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lone77starposted 12 years ago
@Disappearinghead, a powerful topic.

Holding onto one's beliefs is never easy unless ego is involved. And that's the worst kind. Ego wraps itself in an entitlement to be right. It's an equal opportunity enslaver.

Changing your beliefs can sometimes be a good thing. Shaking loose of dogma is especially refreshing.

But still, choosing the right direction is never easy.

To be honest, throwing in the towel on my search for spiritual Enlightenment has never happened. I have thought of throwing in the towel on certain approaches simply because they didn't work. But careful, some people throw out the baby with the bath water. Have you done that @Disappearinghead?

Unanswered prayers? Hogwash! I wrote a hub on this topic. The only prayers that are "unanswered" are those that were never asked in the first place. Prayers are always answered instantaneously and in the affirmative. Ego would certainly like to get its hands on this kind of power, but thankfully ego only spoils the act of prayer.

@Disappearinghead, I've asked for miracles and got them. Like I said: instantaneous and in the affirmative.

Like pregnancy, you're either pregnant with the spirit or you are not. There is no half way on this. Even 99.999999% confidence is zero spirit and 100% fallible mortal.

The object of religion, Homo sapiens species and civilization is the reawakening of each of the children of God trapped on this planet. They can only awaken themselves. God's intervention does not aid this goal. You have to take 100% responsibility. Only then will God show Himself.

Got it? It's that simple.

Sunday school teachings? I left my Southern Baptist minister grandfather's church when I was 9.

I've looked at my doctrines. I've compared religions. I've studied Buddhism, Judaism, Taoism, the Kabbalah and even Scientology. And now I'm a Christian in a denomination of one, recommending that everyone become Christians in their own denomination.

My "teachings" not only stack up to reality, but surpass it.

Quoting of scripture is not a cop out if there is understanding. And far too many do not understand what they quote.

Even I have a long way to go before I know much of anything, but I've discovered many things that no one else has ever found including,

* A biblical timeline compatible with those of science,
* An understanding of the seemingly outrageous longevity of the early patriarchs,
* The reason why God would give such incredible protection to a liar and a murderer (Cain),
* The real culprit behind Noah's Flood,

and a few other juicy tidbits. It takes profound humility to find answers. I keep working on this, too.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I like to think I let go of much of my ego a long time ago. This began when I let go of the dogma I was spoon fed in Church for many years. As to being in a denomination of one, I agree with you; it's where I find myself today.
  
  You say that your prayers and requests for miracles are always answered yes in the affirmative. Congratulations I'm very happy for you. My wife however has suffered one infirmity after another for 10 years, unfortunately not a single prayer has been answered with a yes and no miracles have happened. But heh that's just our experience talking; aka reality.
  
  The reason I asked for no scripture quotes in the OP is because of 25 years being in the Church, it gets a little tedious when Christians just tritely trot out their favourite scriptures as a cure all for life's ills that they have not experienced.
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2. 58
  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's very humble of you to say... openly. It definitely shows your first statement there to be true in this case.
  
  And the humility of your posts is astoundingly profound and garnered with things that no one else has ever found and probably never will.
  reply report

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