Jessica Ahlquist is a Rhode Island high school atheist who led the fight to take down a prayer banner in her school's auditorium. She won that fight in court. Now she is receiving threats and being demonized as "evil" by at least one political leader in the state.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/27/us/rh … wsuit.html
In a reminder of the civil rights struggle and desegregation in the South, she has also required police escorts to school.
That turns my stomach. I'm sure most of these people call themselves true Christians and yet they treat another human this way. Oh yeah she's not a believer so she's less than or evil or whatever. Disgusting.
The fight for freedom is not an easy one.
I'm glad to born in my country where things like that don't exist...
hmm...yes that is something Christian's tend to do. It's very very sad!
Pedrog--that's right, it is a fight for freedom. And it never is easy. Jessica may be 16 but as far as I'm concerned she's a grown woman, a fighter with a strong heart. It takes a special kind of character to whither that kind of social ostracism, especially at that age.
When I first heard her story, I didn't think much of it. Thought maybe she was just a rambunctious youngster. But really she's putting up with a lot of crap to stand up for her cause.
One has to wonder, in a 'strong Roman Catholic community where the prayer has been up for 49 years' why she bothered. Did it offend her that much? It must have for her to single-handedly have it taken down. If I were one of the Catholics in that school, I'd have tee shirts printed with the prayer and hand them out to anyone willing to wear one every single day.
Or maybe prayer as part of the dress code is unacceptable to some people, too.
Failure to acknowledge that there's a difference between an individual expressing his/her own religious beliefs and an institutional endorsement of a particular religious point of view is one reason why it's important to be vigilant about the separation between church and state.
And as a side note, the "if you don't believe the way I do, I'm gonna shove those beliefs in your face until you turn blue" attitude doesn't do anything to convince people that religion isn't part of the problem.
Sure IS a reminder of that, indeed! But not the way you've made it seem. If the story in your link is true, then it's the majority of the youth at that school AND the entire townspeople whose rights have been taken away by one small group of atheists and one secular Judge. And when you take away people's God-given AND Constitutional rights, yeah they're gonna get mad and call things like they are. What did you expect them to do---roll over and worship the devil because the Judge chalked up one for that Adversary? No matter how popular it has become these days to mimic Obama in his leftwing activism and to twist the Constitution, it still isn't right. That Judge should be de-benched ASAP.
Typical religious hatred. If you don't believe as I believe then you MUST be a devil worshiper!
That's not hatred. It's just telling it like it is.
What?---I suppose you yourself would allow a misguided teenager and a Constitutionally-blind Judge to make a simple prayer into a disruptive controversy at a school? PLUS take away the right of companies like florists to AVOID getting into the middle of it? Everyone has rights. But not to toss aside common sense and common heritage for selfishness's sake, nor to supercede individual preferences over others' rights.
Actually, it's our Constitution that protects individuals from people like you.
People like me?? LOL. Now THAT's an example of bias and civil rights denunciation! You've just posted the perfect parallel to racism.
It's posts like that which illustrate verbal bullying. I wonder if I can ask for a taxpayer-paid police escort 'cause people try to insult me like that? hmmm.... I mean, gee, that girl Jessica was offended by a PRAYER that wasn't even personally directed at her or about her! I think I have a case! LOLOL.
They were threatening her life and bodily safety, but leave it to you to think that people saying your beliefs are vile to think you come even close to the level of persecution you dish out to others!
What the heck are you even talking about? "level of persecution"?? Are you viewing things from an even more immature position that that young girl? I have the same right to voice my opinions about any subject that you or anyone else does. Just because you and some others want to make it personal and throw personal insults isn't my fault. It's your fault.
Well you did say you need a personal escort cause people say not nice things about you. Like you compare to a girl who has had her life threatened. You make me sick.
I was of course being sarcastic. I personally am mature enough to stand up for myself. Unlike a teenage girl with an atheist agenda who should've never been taken seriously from the start, or else at least should've been given mental health counseling AND/or a lesson in Constitutional integrity. Apparently she's out to make a name for herself. And is succeeding, because some people continue to agg her on, even at the cost of their own integrity.
You heard it here first folks, Brenda thinks if you don't believe in her God you need mental health counseling! You really are a piece of work, Jesus would be embarrassed!
I'm sure everyone can notice that that's not what I said at all.
Keep on illustrating the same immaturity as the teenager Jessica. Wow.
So teens shouldn't be taken seriously? That's a great lesson for them. Or are you saying she shouldn't be taken seriously because you don't like what she's saying? She doesn't have an atheist agenda. It could have been anyone of any religion who could have said the prayer banner doesn't belong in a public school. Again, no ones rights were taken away.
Would you like me to send you a barf bucket? Or maybe call a doctor?
Normally I would be able to manage to keep my tummy from well, reminding me of my dinner but being pregnant I am not able to stop it so easily, a bucket might come in handy if we are to chat anymore
Not that I am likely to as I really should go to bed, its almost a time of day where I can go back to bed without being pathetic or ruining my sleep cycle totally.
Pet Peeve when people twist other peoples words. Brenda's comment was a rhetorical, sarcastic remark.
She said nothing hate filled either.
I would not really consider someone that turned directly to me during the pledge of allegiance and screamed "UNDER GOD" in my face to be praying.
I would, however, consider the words to be directed to me personally, given the circumstances.
Sounds like a case to me, too.
I agree Pcunix. There are two sides to the coin, heads or tail, right or wrong, constitutional or not.
What happened is beyond religion, am I right? While we may have the right to freedom, we are bound to follow the laws of the land, otherwise, there would be anarchy, right? And each one of us has the right to do what is good and to shun from evil, as America's forefathers have long stood for, believing in one true God which has made this nation great and blessed.
Being 'good' as to being obedient to the law is permissible but going against the right of others to express themselves in prayer inviting all those who may believe to do the same, as may have been representative of the banner taken down, and for those who do not believe, are free not to join and may go elsewhere. But to create a scene and disrespect those present by vehemently taking down their prayer banner, I am saddened for one confused in his heart, in mind and spirit, but I refuse to agree since this is a very serious conduct not worthy of praise at all.
If some people call this act worthy of praise, where did our morals go?
For atheists, while we are all entitled to our own rights and opinions, let us be one in respecting the laws of the land, or we may all be in trouble, as peace and order is paramount in the existence of a state.
I, nevertheless, extend my peace and the love of Christ in me to you, as he truly is in each one of us, in our being, and in all mankind, I pray that you too may see his light, and gain more strength in him, against all evil in this life.
Vehemently taking down?
Do you understand what actually happened here?
The school has been breaking the law. Somebody finally had the guts to point it out. It went to court. The idiots list. They took diwn the banner.
Ooopps! My apologies Pcunix. Thank you very much for reminding me to read first the article before you make any comment, lol.
Admittedly, I deserve the idiot list this time, lol. There you go, as they say, "if something will go wrong, it will go wrong." And nobody is perfect.
Apparently my emotions carried me away reading only the comments before ever reading the article, but I am truly saddened by the decision of the court.
One great lesson learned, though, my friends, 'never get into the fray without first reading the linked article.'
But this should keep us more awake and review on our morals and what America stands for. Has the meaning of 'freedom' deteriorated to the behest of the few?
It is unfortunate that Jessica was herself a victim of misinformation, and this has caused her to fail in her faith, that in praying and believing in God, your prayers will always be answered your way?
On the contrary, God moves in mysterious ways that sometimes, our prayers are not answered the way we want them to be answered, because is it the will of God in us, testing us every time of our faith, in humility and obedience to his words.
And that with hope and greater understanding of things, we may see why he may have answered our prayers in a different way, to keep us awake and be vigilant to share our love, care and understanding to those who fall as all of us may fall along the way, and may falter, yet, it is in going back to God who made us all that we may redeem ourselves, as we are renewed to his will.
And yes, not our will, Jessica, but God's will be done.
If we truly love America, I pray that we be more guided by the words of Christ Jesus who is in all of mankind, for he as God created us all, to share in our love for others, as we may learn to respect life and learn the greatness of living in his words.
I would love to see a world where evil religions are NOT allowed in schools, this girl has the same right not to have YOUR religion forced on her the same as a Muslim student would have. Religion divides people to control them, and is at its heart evil, so yes. I would see this girl think for herself and come to her own conclusions without brainwashing influences of forced religion. She is a freakin hero for standing up for her rights to be respected without hateful bile ridden religion being forced on her!
To understand the theology of Christianity is to know that it is founded in a relationship of FREE WILL with God. People who interpret it differently are misinformed. It is also based on a personal relationship. People who have chosen not to find out for themselves what a spiritual relationship with Christ is really about deny themselves the information to learn the truth. Do not look to individuals for your position on God...Seek God Himself then decide. At least then you will be making an informed decision.
You need to understand that we do not reject your god. We aren't able to seek a relationship with things we know to be imaginary.
Really...how do you know? You cannot. You just think it to be imaginary.
Nonsense. I know that it is imaginary.
There are no gods, never were and never can be. If you like that fantasy and it makes you happy, so be it. It is a fantasy, however.
You still only offer me an opinion. No fact.
No. Not opinion. Proven fact.
There is absolutely nothing that suggests any possibility that your fantasy is real. All gods are logically impossible and overwhelming evidence exists that all specific claims (Christian god, for example) are false.
It's fact. You may like pretending otherwise and honestly it's fine that you do - if it helps you be happy that's great. It's not real, though.
Pcunix, how do you explain NDE's or Near Death Experiences experienced by many including two honest friends of mine and how do you explain my own experience of seeing the light, having survived a mild heart attack in 2002 and a mild stroke in 2010, and I have survived with using natural means with not no medication as a revelation from the Lord Jesus? How do you explain a Dying Man's Last Words on YouTube, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeE2xg3REtA, as recorded by his son per his request, how do you explain the man who , or the 11 year old Colton Burpo who saw heaven and a book inspired by him, the incorruptible bodies and relics from saints which exists until now, and how do you explain many Muslim and other religions now converts into the Christian faith, http://isaalmasih.net/isa/dreamsofisa.html, and the Burmese monk who saw hell in his death and when he came back to life, he related what he saw getting many Buddhists converts to Christianity, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5dM7O-8deE, and countless more.
May you too see the light of Christ, Pcunix, and only through your heart and spirit in prayer through the Holy Spirit, he may reveal himself to you, just like the risen Christ revealed himself to St. Paul as he was himself a persecutor of Christians, until he became a convert as he regained his sight from 3 days of blindness, that you too may be saved. Godspeed.
Oh, oh, oh!!! I know, I know, I know... the answer is Jesus.
No thanks Mate, I'm going to Hell, that's where all the fun is going to take place. It's real. Don't want anything airy fairy up in da sky!
You know it is useless to debate or argue the existence of God to anyone who doesn't believe. Let that person believe what they will.
Furthermore, there is a banner at a school for decades on which the school was founded which now offends one in which she attends. Really!
Get your facts straight.
This has nothing to do with anyone being offended. The banner is illegal whether or not anyone is offended.
It isn't even a debate until you can show us your god exists. Can you?
Whether it was there for decades or ten minutes does not justify the fact it should never have been there in the first place.
I'm not going to get into the right or wrong of prayer or religion. But even you logic and science guys have to admit to the possibility of things beyond our current understanding. There was a time when computers would have been considered the work of the devil and ESP would have been considered witchcraft. Whose to say what lies ahead?
That's fine, but to entertain the myths and superstitions of believers as any sort of reality IS well within our current understanding of exactly that.
True, and before that people used to run and hide from thunder and lightning believing it was angry gods, and they were laughed at by the witchcraft believers later on.
Yet, even today bunkum like ESP and witchcraft are still being perpetuated and what we understand today is ignored or denied by those who perpetuate it.
It's not so much a matter of what lies ahead, it's trying to deal with ignorance and delusion today.
Well for a deity that you claim to be imaginary ,you sure have a lot to say about it
Just sayin..for example I dont believe in tooth fairies or gnomes,so Ive never entered into a discussion about them, just using logic
Sure. And if I blurt out "Omigod", that proves I must be religious. We put up Xmas lights, so we must celebrate the birth of Jesus.
I dont say YOU have to do anything but it is a contrary thing to do all the same -just because its traditional I guess.
Hey and who don't like a party!
If you kept your beliefs in private behind closed doors where they belong rather than evangelizing and telling us what to believe and how to behave, you'll find no one has anything to say about it.
The most disturbing thing about your post is that you are serious!
My mind is being transformed daily to think and behave more like Christs, and you want me to hide that?
HELL Noooooooooooooo deal !
P.S Remember that song "What the world needs now,is love sweet love...
Love is a good thing,and God is Love. Period.
@ brenda durham:
Would you object if the government put islamic religious icons and prayers in public buildings? Why?
Even not hatred, it is extremely narrow and ugly. She is just a teenager!!! What kind of "people" would do that to her only because she doesn't have the same "belief" with them? God and his children!!! Remember the Church in mid-Age burnt heritics? Still in present days!
Wow. You really support a human being bullied to the point they need security to walk around? That's disturbing. In what way are their rights being taken a way from them? They aren't. Public schools are supposed to be secular that's the whole point of them taking down the prayer banner. Students can still pray without it if they want. So the reminder that black children needed military escorts to a school in the south is not the same as this because this girl deserves it?
No parallel at all.
What I support is the notion that any person who finds the following prayer to be offensive and will go to such lengths to take it down, and then whine about their own "rights" when people stand up against THAT person's bullying (because what Jessica did was bullying from the start)...should be counseled not only about their behavior but about their mental and social immaturity.
If the internet has it right, here's the prayer----
Our Heavenly Father,
Grant us each day the desire to do our best,
To grow mentally and morally as well as physically,
To be kind and helpful to our classmates and teachers,
To be honest with ourselves as well as with others,
Help us to be good sports and smile when we lose as well as when we win,
Teach us the value of true friendship,
Help us always to conduct ourselves so as to bring credit to Cranston High School West.
Like I said, if that's the exact prayer, then I propose that anyone who takes offense to that be given counseling, not given the right to disrupt an entire school with their manipulative whining.
So basically you're saying you think the people standing up for their rights equals bullying and threatening an individual. An individual you think was doing something similar? So you agree with threatening a teenager so much that she needs protection. Nice.
Why can't they be decent and say ok let's put the banner in a non secular place like a church and move on? If the faith and presence of God is so strong and unshakeable why aren't they saying stuff like God loves you still and leave it alone. The judge obviously wouldn't let one individual request something that would violate everyone else's rights. That's why it was ruled the way it was.
Nowhere have I agreed with anyone threatening a teenager, period. I have agreed with people saying the girl was wrong and selfish to even bring the issue up to begin with. And I haven't seen any evidence that anyone threatened her with bodily harm! Have you? I personally haven't seen her Facebook page nor seen anyone threaten her. Have you?
All religions are a form of irrationality!
Just because you and your silly friends suffer from god delusion doesn't give you the right to denounce rationality among people who have a desire to be free of all these absurd forms of religiosity ... including yours.
Religion is nothing more than mind pollution and should be reduced as much as possible in public ... go crazy at home if you have to!
Absolutely she has been threatened. Facebook has dozens of posts saying she needs to be hurt physically and even killed as a result of asking for her constitutional right of a school free from religious teachings
Maybe you dont agree with the threats but you don't seem too concerned that it's happening especially from people who are supposed to rise above those pesky human emotions. It's obvious you don't think it's serious since you doubt it's really going on. I don't need to see her Facebook page to believe she's really being threatened.
Would you take offense to your child being taught to speak to a magical fairy that doesn't exist as if it were real? Particularly when that child is at impressionable age and believing nearly anything an adult tells her?
Yes? Then why would you find other people in the same fix any different? Brenda, you really need to understand, deep down, that other people do not have the same beliefs as you do, AND that to them their beliefs are just as valid as your own. They deserve the same considerations you ask for yourself and your fellow believers.
I don't think she can understand that. She so strongly believes what she believes that she just cannot comprehend any other belief. It would be like you saying you can fly. She cannot accept that you have any legitimate belief that differs from her own. Th is only one truth she can see.
Did you see the thread recently where a woman complained when the school made bibles available to students to take? She was told any religious literature was fine, and it was...until she brought in copies of her pagan spellbooks to give out to the kids.
Suddenly the policy was changed and no more religious literature (including hers) would be given out.
This thread is very much the same; all religious activities are just fine, and not promoting any particular religion, until someone of a different belief shows up. Then suddenly everything changes and why people can't understand this is beyond me. Thank goodness our forefathers understood the potential (and very real and active) problem and put a stop to it right from the beginning: the majority shall NOT rule in the matter of religion. No one shall.
You're right, though - far too many people treat belief as unequivocal fact instead of belief, and everyone in the world just has to know it as well. If only people could separate belief from reality and accept that others may be different. Like you, that is my sole problem with religion - the far right radicals are unable to differentiate between belief and reality, they don't understand that there are other beliefs just as valid and important as their own.
The Baptsts used to understand that - until they got powerful. Then they began forgetting.
And that seems to be it in a nutshell. As long as one is powerful enough to shut down or ignore the opposition public reinforcement of religious beliefs is fine. They just don't seem smart enough to understand that they won't always be in power everywhere and it might behoove them to be a little more understanding.
Was the constitution about shutting down the peoples expression of religious beliefs OR about our government not being overtaken by any particular church doctrine.
Freedom of expression of any religious beliefs that a person might have.
Today this has changed; NOW; my expression of my religious beliefs are protected only "IF" someone isn't offended by my having them.
Today, I am not allowed to express them in a public school. Tomorrow I will not be allowed to express then on a public street.
And in a few months we all will "Not" be allowed to express ANY opinion of any sort on public property.
I can see where this is headed.
You may express your views in a public school all you want to, although disturbing the peace is frowned upon.
What you may NOT do is use that public building itself to proclaim your beliefs. Your own voice and hands must do that as the government may not become involved.
Students ARE allowed to express your religious beliefs in a school.
This is the constant lie that the religious right tells over and over again.
Lie, lie, lie. Wonderful people..
You appear to believe that it is more important to express your religious beliefs publicly as opposed to just practicing them privately.
How very sad. It's no wonder followers cause so much conflict.
You're missing the point entirely.
The minute that the school stepped into prayer territory, it is by definition promoting one religious viewpoint over another. And that is illegal.
Does the prayer itself offend me? No, but having it displayed the way it was in the school certainly does. Taking down the banner does nothing to stop someone from holding their preferred religious beliefs or from practicing their religion. Shoot, they can even pray if they want. But leaving that banner up, sanctioned by the school, says "If you don't believe in God, you don't count at this school." Somewhere around 15% of the population of the US is atheist, agnostic, or does not believe in a 'life force.' Those people have every bit as much right to have their beliefs respected as do those that hold religious beliefs.
Considering the idea that secularism is the fairest way of judgement, it's probably you that should be de-benched.
I'd have to be on the bench before I could be de-benched. And as a matter of fact, I'd have enough sense to not make an awful judgment like that Judge did in the issue this thread's about. It also is about citizens' rights, and the liberalism that pushes to "de-bench" regular citizens like me; in effect, to deny our civil rights.
I guess they really take their religion seriously in Rhode Island. Personally, I think it's wrong for this poor girl to receive death threats for what she did, as she never did anything wrong. Granted, you don't have to agree with her actions for wanting the prayer banner taken down, but you do have to respect the fact that she did have it taken down legally. Therefore, she didn't do anything that was unconstitutional, as she was well within her legal rights.
It's kind of a shame that she's being harassed like this, as I know high school is rough enough WITHOUT people wanting you dead. But to put up with what she's going through, I can't say I envy her at all. I just hope for her sake and family sake, they're able to make it through all this.
As for the State Representative, he should definitely be ashamed of himself if you ask me. Granted, he was giving out his honest opinion, but a representative should be more professional than that. He should be above attacking an underage teenager on the air. Very bad form on him.
Our Countries founding forefathers built this Country standing on the word of God. But she is also entitled to her beliefs and should not have been threatened.
The issue with Christianity is to many take it to another level. They should not be judging others and should be leading, not exiling people from the church. Being a Christian it peeves me off when other Christian brothers and sisters taunt non-believers. How can you lead anyone when you are busy tearing them down?
Our countries founding forefathers built this country running from, not standing on, the word of God. How easily we forget, as long as it is our church, just what a terrible tyrant the church can be.
Sometimes it takes a teen age girl to remind us of this.
I have not read all the posts, right through. So someone might have said this before:
If that girl is expecting the folk of the school and the community, i.e., the christians, to be tolerant of HER views, then she should be setting the example of tolerance towards them, first of all.
It's no good saying "we are all equal, but some are more equal than others."
Tolerance, discussion, willingness to listen to other points of view without immediate harsh judgement, these all begin "at home."
She could have said, "Yes I agree with the intent of that prayer, although because I am atheist I don't see it as a prayer. I can be tolerant of your views, which I understand although I don't agree. The world (i.e., this school and community) is big enough for us all. We can have diverse opinions and still live side by side.
Now, can christians and non-christians alike say "amen" to this?
Not really, no, she didn't threaten anyone's life, but has had hers threatened. If what she was asking for was so unfair they why would a court find in her favor? I know I was offended as a kid for the religious stuff in school but didn't have the courage to stand up to it and ask for a learning environment that didn't cause me offense. I applaud her effort and I applaud those Christians here who have actually posted that she should not have threats against her life for standing up for what she believes in even tho its different from what they believe in. If all Christians could live by the teachings of their religion like this I would have to respect the religion, as it stands, the individuals get my respect but the religion as a whole does not.
Again: IT IS NOT ABOUT OFFENSE.
It doesn't matter whether anyone was offended or not. The banner is illegal.
This is no different than running an employment ad that ends with "No Irish applications accepted". It doesn't matter if there isn't a single person of Irish descent within 600 miles - the ad is illegal.
So is the banner.
Other than reading the above linked story, I haven't done much research, but I'm having difficulty seeing how the banner is illegal. The First Amendment doesn't bar it and I doubt that state law makes it illegal.
You are incorrect. That has been shown in case after case. See http://au.org/about/our-victories
No, sir, you misunderstood my point. The First Amendment does not bar it, but 5 SC justices many times have decided to do so anyway. I'm referring to the Constitution itself. John Marshall's statement about the Constitution saying what the SC said the Constitution said is a high level of judicial overreach (and I like Marshall).
So every single permutation has to be detailed before you will believe that it is right?
I wish I lived in a more enlightened country..
So you believe the SC has the final say on anything? How about when precedent is overturned? Do you believe that two opposing decisions are both equally correct and legitimately constitutional?
I don't understand your position. Basically, you seem to insinuate that if the Supreme Court ruled that the banner was Constitutional, you would be fine with that ruling if the court decides so. I don't see how you can argue otherwise if all you depend upon are SC rulings.
Forgive me, but if I have to choose whose interpretation to believe, I am going with the judges.
Sorry, but I don't forgive you for choosing an interpretation you like instead of the plain text of the Constitution. If you can argue your point constitutionally, I'm all for it.
See my reply to Pcunix above. If all you depend on are SC rulings, what happens when precedent is overturned? Why are recent rulings more important to you than earlier rulings by the same court?
It's been argued constitutionally - in front of SC Justices..
Of course idiots can be on the bench - we've had that stupid "In God We trust" on our money since 1864 and no court has seen that as unconstitutional - they should, but they do not.
Right now, the religious prejudice is sufficiently lessened that banners are illegal. Get over it. Maybe some Right Wing President will appoint more old time religion Justices and it will get reversed. Until then, the little darlings will have to make up their own prayers or carry their favorite verses in their pockets - if they can read.
You didn't answer my question. You argue that the banner is unconstitutional purely because the court has ruled so, then you argue that sometimes the court is wrong. Those two claims are irreconcilable. One can't argue both sides with any claim to consistency.
You like one ruling, but not the other - by what constitutional reasoning do you determine this? If you have it, I'd like to hear it, but you haven't given me any so far (not just you, no one else on this thread has either, so I'm not just picking on you). If you can't give me any, then you aren't any better than a Christian who tries to force everyone to pray. You are both intolerant in your own way. I'd prefer to believe that you are more tolerant than that, so give me some legitimate constitutional reasoning to back that up.
For some reason, the system won't let me reply to your last comment.
I don't understand how our government works? That is a laugh. I know exactly what the supreme law of the land is - which is all that matters. Those on your side apparently don't care what the Constitution says as long as you get what you want. Thanks for the reminder, though.
The judges read the same plain text, and I agree what how they are reading it.
If they are just reading the plain text, then why was that text never interpreted that way before 1946? Could earlier justices just not read? But again, if the court ruled differently would it be right because it was a court decision and, if not, why not constitutionally?
The plain text of the First Amendment plainly states that the federal government can not establish a state (national) church, which a high school in Rhode Island is not doing by displaying a banner.
wilderness you are correct in that America ran from the oppression of Britain and her oppresive tyranny,however doesnt the pledge of allegiance ...one nation under God suggest they honoured Him.
Not in the slightest. The Pledge of Allegiance has absolutely nothing to do with the founding fathers. It wasn't written until 1892 and not adopted by Congress until 1942. And although written by a minister, it didn't include the words 'under God' - those words were added in 1954.
I imagine most of the radical conservatives (that may or may not be you, I don't know) who are so quick to wrap themselves in the flag and trumpet the pledge would be horrified to know that the original author was not only a minister but also an avowed Socialist. And that the pledge was written as part of an advertising compaign designed to sell flags as part of a subscription campaign for the magazine that printed it. Or that the original salute to the flag was not to stand with the hand reverently on the heart, but with the arm outstretched, palm down - yes, the same sort of salute that the Nazis gave Hitler.
That girl is 16 years old. She is being taught, it seems to me, to be adversarial, instead of learning negotiating skills.
16 is a relatively young age as far as I am concerned. She is a child. She probably gets the message that so many young people get: "That adults don't show us, by example, how to be responsible adults." She is being taught by ADULTS who are more childish than she is.
Learn the skills of living together, accepting diversity, getting to understand what are important requirements for the community to work together.
Look at the content of that prayer on the wall. Start to live by that message, it doesn't matter a damn who wrote it.
When will you understand that this has nothing to do with that girl and whether or not she or anyone else was offended?
The banner was illegal. In our idiotic legal system, you can't just have the cops come down and correct an obvious civil rights violation, no, there has to ne someone to bring the charge. But the point that all of you apologists keep ignoring is that the stupid banner was illegal whether anyone dared bring a case or not.
All the school had to do was take out the religious parts and that could have been a lovely sentiment. Did it NEED "Our Heavenly Father"? Of course it didn't.
But they just HAD to be jerks, didn't they?
As of right now, I'm not putting a lot of stock in Jessica. I honestly don't think she cared all that much, except for the $13,000 she received from all of this. ACLU bribe?
It was the ACLU that actually went up to her and asked her to do this. As far as I'm concerned they have waged war against Christianity a long time ago, and this was only another battle for them with many more to come.
Jessica is a shellfish little brat who likes to demean everyone who disagrees with her. Jessica's own words:
"“I’ve never been asked this before,” she said. A pause, and then: “It’s almost like making a child get a shot even though they don’t want to. It’s for their own good. I feel like they might see it as a very negative thing right now, but I’m defending their Constitution, too.”
Pretend that quote is being directed towards another group beside Christianity whether it is atheists, Islam, any cult, youth group, club, heck it could even be directed to men's only clubs when women wanted the right to access them.
That statement is extremely offensive, calling everyone in that group a child, and it's for their own good whether they like it or not. It screams totalitarianism.
As far as the constitution goes, tell me where exactly it is written in the constitution? It will not be found in the constitution. It was in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists in 1802.
"The First Amendment provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation … ted_States
If anything, I see this as an attack on our first amendment rights.
Hilarious, you want to evangelize your religion, telling us what to believe and how to behave and when we refuse, YOU'RE the victims. Classic!
Kinda like what you're doing?
Obviously then, you too have no problem with atheists, Muslims, or any cult placing their banners in schools? How about a banner right alongside that one that reads, "God is Dead"?
Would that be okay with you?
Yes, you can exercise your religion in private, behind closed doors where it belongs and not in the public eye. Thank you very much.
Oh, don't worry about the war. Your imaginary friend will protect you.
When the two of you stop slinging your hate filled statements around on this forum, then maybe I'll listen.
By the way you can't read, since I never evangelized. I'm sure you don't want me to start.
Also, a banner even if it is worshiping satan, still falls under the first amendment and is protected as well as all other religions including Christianity.
Would I like it no. Would I rip it down, no, unless it was on my property. Would I take them to court over it? No. I rather pray for them.
Y'all sure do find hate in the darndest places, don't you?
I know right? I see it all throughout the forums when the back and forth gets to a certain point the "you're full of hate" line comes out. I've never seen any hate coming from those accused of it. They are usually talking sense and logic.
I used to meet one Christian old lady when I studied in Canada. In order to get me to believe in God and read Bible, she did different voices as Jesus, Jesus' nephew, and some weird woman from another world over the phone. Sounds a little creepy, but I was not afraid, because I knew it was her. Then, what is religious belief?
Well good for her!!! As a Christian I am a huge proponent for the separation of church and state. As for the name calling and threats.... That has nothing to do with being a follower of Christ, and everything to do with being a simple minded thug, who feels threaten by this young woman's courage and strength. True Christians don't send hate mail nor threaten people... Jesus wouldn't condone that type of behavior from a follower of his- & would draw upon the strength of the teenager and celebrate her self confidence. Christ did not fear those different from him. Why another Christian would behave so badly, and show such disrespect towards another person like this, ultimately disrespecting Christ's teachings... Just shows how weak minded he is and how little faith he has for Christ.
He might call himself a Christian, but by Christ's own teachings he is anything but.
That's what happens when you upset God.
Well this is just pathetic. There seems to be a horrendous deficit of the supposed "Christian love" coming from that high school.
Ahlquist, an atheist, said at school she has needed police protection the entire school day and is constantly being bullied by other students. “Even just in homeroom people screaming under God at me during the pledge of allegiance. It’s just a really hostile atmosphere. I’ve had police escorts to all of my classes all day. It is very difficult to concentrate on school in an atmosphere like that.”
http://630wpro.com/Article.asp?id=23812 … spid=37719
But not all is bad, after all the florist near her refuse to deliever flowers to her house /r/atheism finally sent her some love:
Some Rhode Island religious leaders have come out in support of Jessica Ahlquist and calling for an end to the harassment and abuse:
"We come as faith leaders in good conscience to speak to all those who are intolerant, to please be intolerant, stop the verbal abuse, stop the threats," said Reverend Matthew Kai, Pastor of the Tabernacle Baptist Church of Providence and the immediate past president of the Rhode Island State Council of Churches.
"We are not strangers coming from outside," said Rev. Dr. Don Anderson, Executive Minister of the rhode Island State Council of Churches, and a 1966 graduate of Cranston High School West. "We love Rhode Island, we love Cranston, and we believe that the majority of people in this fair city want the hateful speech to stop."
They deserve credit for advocating principles of decency and democracy in a charged climate.
Christians are told not to judge people outside the church, so if they are doing that, they are going against what they say they believe. However, they are to judge those within the faith. That judgment is to be based on God's word, not opinion. Christians harassing this girl should read:
1 Corinthians 5:12
1 Thessalonians 4:12
That's what Paul said but God and Yahshua said not to Judge because there is only one judge. God.
Paul also said if a man fornicates they are to come together and kill him..destruction of the flesh to save his soul.
This is why it is God's word that really does the judging. Part of the problem is that most people think of judging as condemning. Judging means much more than that. "To judge" means "to make a distinction" or "to separate." We make judgments every day, in every aspect of life. God has given us his word to help us judge between truth and error. What God wants is not for us to avoid judging, but instead to judge rightly.
Odd, I have not seen that definition in any dictionary.
If you are judging whether or not a piece of fruit is ripe or rotten, you make distinctions based on the facts. Christians are to make distinctions based on God's word...a righteous judgement...not self-righteous which is where the problem often comes in. Not only that, but Christians are to examine themselves and take care of the sin in their own life before they start pointing fingers.
Again, from where do you get your definitions?
One of the definitions found in Noah Webster's New International Dictionary of the English Language is "To compare facts or ideas, and perceive their relations and attributes, and thus distinguish truth from falsehood; to determine; to discern; to distinguish; to form an opinion about."
Fruit and people are very different.
When you judge, you exalt yourself to the throne of God.
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.
For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king;
I'm not, but you say you are Christian so............
Either you believe the scripture or you don't
It is important to take the Scripture in context. In Matthew 7:1 it is talking about the importance of judging without hypocrisy. In verse 2 it says, "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and [a]by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you." This is something for Christians to consider. 2 Tim. 3:16 says, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness."
As for the Lord being the judge, this is correct. In the gospel of John 1:1 we are reminded that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." God's word is the real judge. There's more to this, but you get the idea.
That's decisions not judgments.
Judging everyday life is not the same as judging a person.
You have no right to judge me and I have no right to judge you.
We do not know what is in the heart and soul of another person
Anyway, I disagree with you.
Judgments are the process by which we make decisions. I agree that I have no right to judge you if you are not a believer. As for what is in the heart of another, Luke 6:45 tells us that "The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart."
I'm an ordained minister, but I am not in the Christian religion.
Obviously you are a Pauline Christian per the remark about judging those who are believers only.
I bet you even believe Yahshua (Jesus to you) is God
Think that is what harms people to the most to be judged for any reason. It does more harm than good, and we don't have to judge others, we just choose too. God is the only Judge, no man should have the power and authority that belongs only to God himself.
She has a lot of courage. The other students really should be punished.
I wonder what it was about the prayer that was found to be offensive other that the word God and AMEN. ???
What IF I said that I was offended because these words were still written in the dictionary? Would separation of Church and state require that we remove the dictionary from our public libraries?
It is easy to say that WE are offended by almost anything we choose.
I am offended quite often.
I think I will file some law suits?
I would love to live in a world where "I" am never offended!
People tend to forget that "EVERY TIME" that any one defends what they think their rights to be, and "WINS"; some one else looses some of what they think theirs rights are supposed to be.
Are you truly this unaware of why this is prohibited?
Yes, it really is. It is about separation of church and state.
I would have to disagree. I've never seen an arguement that only involved ONE issue.
Disagree all you want. This was not an argument, it was a court case. It's over. Your side lost as they should always.
OH am I on a side in this case?
I envy people like yourself who live in a black and white world. No gray area.
Where there is a right and wrong and nothing in between.
Where everyone on this side of the river are good people and everyone on the other side aren't.
Sorry to disapoint you; but I am not on either side of this issue stated in the OP.
I live in gray area. And every issue that I see, I also see the other side.
Because of the people on both sides of the river, I gotta keep swimming.
It's sick that so-called Christian's would do that. I'm almost glad people don't consider Mormons to be Christian. I don't even want to part of that group. I don't agree with her actions necessarily, but she has a right to make a statement and request that the banner be taken down, and the others most certainly do NOT have a right to harass her in any way.
Sometimes it seems that everyone is protesting something.
Yes it is deplorable for anyone to threaten and insult anyone else for what they hold dear OR offended by.
And, for absolutely no apparent reason, either.
And yet, Christians who shove their religion down our throats isn't insulting or deplorable.
Yeah... it's disgusting and shameful. They violate their own beliefs, which makes no sense. Ugh. Sometimes I can't help but seriously dislike people.
It shouldn't be the people you dislike, it should be the religious beliefs that control them to act that way.
Well, I'm Mormon.... so I'm religious (please don't get on my case about believing in strange mystic men in the sky-- I'm well aware of your position on religion). However, I believe the most basic principle of Christian religions seems to have been lost, which is to Love One Another. Sometimes I feel that religion may be a bad thing too, the way people wield it as a tool of superiority and damnation. There are non-religious people who act just as badly, unfortunately.
There's no need for that considering Joseph Smith was an obvious fraud.
That is not a principle of Christian religion, it is part and parcel to our evolved altruistic characteristics. It's just one more thing Christianity has stolen and called it's own.
The really bad thing about religion is the brainwashing of children. Religion on it's own cannot stand up to simple logic and reasoning.
Ahh, I knew you'd take this route. Time for me to go to work....
Does that mean you're not willing to question your beliefs and how you came to embrace them? Oh well.
Actually, I do question them. All the time. Just last month I was pretty sure I didn't believe in anything Mormons believed in. So I questioned a little more and wondered why everyone around me believed and I didn't.
It's an ongoing process. Maybe one day I'll be Mormon, and maybe one day I won't.
But no, seriously, I have to go work.
So, do you believe in them or not? If so, why?
Yes, that's the process I was referring.
Have you been in the Mormon environment your whole life? If so, does it make sense why you're not a Muslim, for example?
Do I believe them? Some of them I do, because they make sense to me. However, they are mundane things like "having a years supply of food is important"-- I believe that because we had a year's supply of food, and my father lost his job. We had very little money, and that food storage helped us immensely. It was nice to be prepared. Some of the bigger things, I'm still exploring to see if I believe them. I have no definitive answer on those yet.
I have been Mormon my whole life, but I grew up in Detroit, Georgia and Brazil and in each place, I was the lone Mormon girl my age. In Detroit, I was the only Mormon in my graduating class of 700, and one of just a tiny handful in a school of 2500. So I wouldn't say I've been in a Mormon environment my whole life.
I'm not sure I understand your last question, sorry.
Unfortunately EVERYONE seeeeems to be doing it!
People think that their eyes were designed to look outwardly only. NOT
If those Christians had their way, Ahlquist would be burned at the stake.
I am an atheist but I don't pick on christians. They are as entitled to their beliefs as I am mine. To pick on someone because they think differently to you is disgusting.
could not agree with you more...each man to his own...in the end each person will make that final journey on their own and all their belief systems, religions, etc will end with them at deaths door...so why even get involved in arguments....Great Honest answer by the way :0)
I went to both a public school and a religious school and I can tell you that no bully is worse then the one with God on their side
Looks to me like someone chose to take offence at the prayer banner then decided to prove a point about it. Soon the whole thing blows up out of proportion. Somehow I think the claims of persecution are somewhat exaggerated in order to push another agenda.
So a prayer banner was in a school. Big deal whoopie doo. If someone doesn't like it, they are free not to look at it. And no it wasn't a case of religion being forced down anyone's throat.
No it isn't.
That's a fallacy that's being perpetuated by liberal activists who twist the Constitution and who take personal offense at any public respect for God Himself (which is a Constitutional right of all citizens, even if not a responsibility that all citizens have to engage in).
Not engaging in illegal wars would be a much better way for showing public respect for God, you know, respect her creation instead of waving banners that offend those of differing beliefs.
Whose creation is that again? LOL.
Bad grief! (I've decided to say bad grief instead of good grief. If people can twist the concepts of civil rights and slam Christians under the guise of those rights and try to re-define even God Himself, I can re-define whatever I want! lol).
Well, "not engaging in illegal wars".........I suppose you blame Bush for all those supposedly illegal wars, even though wars occurred long before him. Kinda like the prayer banner had been in the school for...what was it?....49 years or something?! Wow. Guess Madelyn Murray OHare missed one. Bummer. And now a teenager wants to carry her torch. Sad. And scary.
Actually I blame Bush Sr. for first selling weapons to the people we then attacked, for then attacking them and when his son came into office its no wonder why they attacked again, heck even the name was the same, like it was just a clone of the first war monger taking office that they were scared of, enough to strike first. Now Obama promises to close gitmo and end the war and doesn't, making him no better so don't think Obama doesn't get a % of the blame, lets say he deserves 15% of the blame. A very long line of conservative Christians have been arming the world to then go and invade and start wars with those same people. Clean up your religion before you go advertising it!
Obama gets only 15%? I think we can add another 50% at least for the Fast and Furious fiasco.
And another 50% for the O's refusal to take a stand for unborn babies. So he's way past 100% in blame already. Obama claims to be a Christian too. So I guess his advocating for the overthrow of other National governments via "civil rights" is only the fault of his "Christian" part, eh? lol. Christians are used to being scapegoats by now. The only parts we need to clean up are the parts that anti-Christians and Christians in disguise sully up.
The banner had been in place for nearly 50 years. In that time tens of thousands will have seen it; some being inspired, others not bothered. In all that time did anyone think their rights were being infringed upon? Anyone think it was ramming religion down their throats? Anyone actually offended? I doubt it otherwise it wouldn't have taken fifty years before a cry baby came along with an axe to grind.
This is not about whether the banner was lawful or not; it's about a child who wishes to call a halt to the football game because it's their ball and they're going home.
I bet there were lots of people offended but didn't have the courage to stand up, alone, for their right to a place of learning that wouldn't offend them. When you consider how easily Christians resort to death threats, its not hard to imagine it takes a courageous person to be willing to take the risk. For over a thousand years it has been dangerous to stand up to the church, many groups of people have been totally whipped out by the church, a sort of genocide really.
If you had read the prayer in an objective manner you would see that no sane person could be offended unless they chose to take offence.
"when you consider how easily Christians resort to death threats" do you have any evidence? Do you have a transcript? You only have what was reported to have alleged to have happened
Me thinks you are enjoying the spectacle of this event because it tickles you, otherwise you wouldn't be whipping up all your rhetoric.
Try asking a cathar, oh right they were wiped out by the church, thats right, they no longer exist because they were murdered by the church. None left to ask. All because they believed the church with its worldly wealth was worshiping 'the bad god' known to them as rex mundi, I tend to agree, the church worships Satan, any church with blood on its hands does.
What about some perspective here? Cathars being wiped out in a genocidal act perpetrated by the medieval Catholic church in the 13th century, and a harmless banner written by a young child who wanted to inspire other children.
We are talking about a president for not taking a stand against the church for personal safety reasons, this in my book qualifies, you still haven't really cleaned up your church. Now its gay people who get murdered, and girls who ask their place of learning not be littered with religious dogmatic crap. And you seem happy, even overjoyed to support those who have given her death threats when the law takes her side. Killers for Jesus maybe?
1) It's not my Church.
2) You questioned the matter of respect in my posts, but it is you that uses terms such as "dogmatic crap". Youv'e now thrown away any credibility in this argument
3) Just what evidence do you have that I'm "happy even overjoyed to support those who have given her death threats". I have merely questioned their validity.
Your error is in thinking that someone has to be offended.
The banner was illegal even if no one was EVER offended.
I don't know about that, as I seem to remember one part of the constitution reading "freedom of religion", so the banner wasn't illegal. However, the girl did go through legal means to have it taken down, and I think everyone needs to respect that. And no, I don't agree with the death threats aimed at her, as those people should be punished to the fullest extent of the law for threatening that poor girl.
Illegal or not, there are many opinions on the matter. However obviously nobody considered it in the public interest to peruse the batter for nearly fifty years. Good sensible use of tax payer's money?
Then it is time to change the law again. It is not constitutional law, since it is not in the constitution. It does go against our first amendment rights.
Neither do I think it is right for one person to tell the majority that they are wrong, and now what they believe, do, and think is illegal. It is just as bad as having the church and state in each others pockets, and no other religion is allowed.
Your inability to comprehend why this is law and why it is important that it be so does not change either of those facts,
And the strongest push for this historically came from Baptists, not atheists.
How can you call yourself a rational being and demand PUBLIC respect for a man made, super natural thing, which never existed in the real world?
Suffer your god delusion at home or with your friends but do not display your ignorance of reality in public! What do you think this is, a place where all religious nuts can run around and haw it their own way?
Humanism is the common denominator - not religiosity of one form or another!
Humanism is about respect, of which little is found in your post.
Don't think I used any terms like 'delusion' 'ignorance' religious nuts' and I certainly didn't aim to insult you.
Are you also suffering from the same irrational god delusion for which you want to be respected in public?
It would be much better for you to seriously seek real help since gods are not known to reduce the ills of god delusion a hell of a lot ....
"So a prayer banner was in a school. Big deal whoopie doo. If someone doesn't like it, they are free not to look at it."
In that case, if there was a banner that said "Oh Allah, please bless this school and your prophet Muhammad. Amen." You would be okay with that? Nobody is forcing the students to look at that banner, right?
Well, you are more consistent than many. It wouldn't personally bother me either. But I am not bothered by a lot of things--that doesn't mean they are right or appropriate in all situations. I'm not bothered by a slapstick comedy act, but that is not appropriate for the floor of the US Senate.
In any case, I suspect that if there was such an "Allah" banner in every school in the country, you might start to feel differently. And that is what this is about. Because laws are totalizing, you can't have certain exceptions here or there. Everyone is ruled by the same law. So if something is allowed for one person or school, it must be allowed for all, and thus we have a slippery slope.
Those of us over here in this camp believe all religions should be treated equally, with neutrality.
Which is exactly why http://www.au.org/ was founded BY RELIGIOUS PEOPLE.
Smart people who understood that they were protecting themselves.
Considering the nature and beliefs of the Christian Right wing in America, it is understandable why people have severe reservations about their influence in schools. My fear is the increasing influences that these organisations and ministries are having in the UK. However, my position with regards this prayer banner remains, due to its longevity, its origins, and the circumstances of its removal which appears to have been motivated by a politically correct agenda.
Let's ignore the motivation. Motivation cannot be inferred because we can't read people's minds. You mentioned longevity, origins. I do not believe the length of a tradition or custom means anything. Slavery, for instance, was a tradition for centuries in the American colonies, yet people one day decided to just get rid of it. Think about that. A tradition that lasted for centuries, and was profoundly fundamental to the economic system and social hierarchy!
(Now please don't say that I'm equating a "simple banner" with the enslavement of millions of people. I am not. I am simply using an extreme example about which there is no debate to demonstrate the point.)
The simple fact is that if the school really wants to keep the secular sentiment alive, they know how to do it: just put words up encouraging the students, etc, without mentioning religious deities. There is a school right down the block from my house that has similar sentiments written on its outside walls about achievement, greatness, tolerance, hard work, etc. But it does not need God to get the point across. Pretty straightforward, actually.
Elementary kids are expected to behave less disciplined than college kids; same, same for Christian students. Word of knowledge and spiritual maturity varies from the elementary beginning to those who has put on the full Armour.
I don't think it was fair for her to win that case. If she had went to court because she was being harassed and demonized for being an atheist, I understand her winning, but not for what she won the case for. Everyone should be free to live however they like, even the majority of the school. If they want to put up a simple banner, they should be allowed to.
That she's being demonized, I don't approve, but I understand why. She fought to take away a constitutional right from others, all the while getting to keep hers. I think she should not be harassed but should have expected this backlash.
You just contradicted yourself.
What constitutional right did she take away from others?
The constitutional right is, the ability to worship, express their faith, however they please wherever they please. We have free speech, and that can be a symbol, expression, or flag or whatever anyone prefers.
The banner was their symbol, opinions, and/or expression.
They have that right. They can pray their ugly little hearts out. The SCHOOL can't post prayers.
They can write their silly prayer on paper and carry it in their pockets, take it out and ooh and Ahh whenever they want. They have lost nothing.
So if they pray they have ugly little hearts? The SCHOOL can post anything they like, they can not FORCE prayer on anyone.
You should know better than that; the school cannot give even the semblance of promoting or establishing a religion. Any religion - even Christianity.
Posting a Christian prayer that is in direct conflict with other religions (paganism, maybe?) is promoting a religion according to the courts.
There is no need to be condescending to me, especially when you have your facts wrong. The SCHOOL did not post that prayer, a former student wrote and displayed it. It was an expression of that students beliefs and the school did not violate any laws by allowing the student to post the prayer. Regardless of what you think, this whole fiasco was accelerated by a Liberal agenda set by the ACLU.
You want facts? Here is a precedent by ruling in 1969:
It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the school house gate. This has been the unmistakable holding of this Court for almost 50 years
-Justice Abe Fortas
Tinker v. Des Moines School District - 1969
More? Here is a brief taken directly from the United States Department of Education Guidelines in relation to Student Religious Expression in Public Schools:
The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment does not prohibit purely private religious speech by students. Students, therefore, have the same right to engage in individual or group prayer and religious discussion during the school day as they do to engage in other comparable activity. For example, students may read their bibles or other scriptures, say grace before meals, and pray before tests to the same extent they may engage in comparable nondisruptive activities. Local school authorities possess substantial discretion to impose rules of order and other pedagogical restrictions on student activities, but they may not structure or administer such rules to discriminate against religious activity or speech.
I have no doubt that the ruling made on this "banner" case will be overturned on appeal, as it should be, which is why the SCHOOL has not taken it down, they just covered it with a tarp. Ultimately, this is not a case about God or Christianity, it is about Freedoms of Speech and of Religious Expression.
And just to note, I would expect the same rules to apply if Jessica or other students wanted to post a banner denouncing God or Religion as it is their right to do so. However, assuming the beliefs of her community are mostly Christian in nature, I don't think such a banner would pass the 'nondisruptive' clause in the US Dept. of Ed's guidelines.
Highly amusing that you quote language that shows exactly why that stupid banner never should have been hung.
Everyone agrees that STUDENTS are free to express their religious beliefs. The school administration is not.
It's that simple.
Wrong as usual. I quoted language that shows exactly why the student had a right to hang the banner in the first place. No where in the OP linked article does it state that the school administration hung the banner. It only states that the school has placed a tarp over the banner until the issue is resolved in appeal. This is an overt display by the school that transgressions against the freedoms of speech and religious expression are not going to be taken lightly and they are teaching their students not to give up hope based on poor decisions by a dumbass judge that will not have the final say in this matter.
Um, if the banner has been up there for 49 years, then it's probably safe to assume by this time that the school administration has hung the banner, regardless of who originally hung it. If nothing else, I find it a little difficult to believe that it wasn't taken down at some point for cleaning or painting - hanging it back up would have been an administrative decision, NOT the actions of some individual student.
Considering that the banner in question has been in place for 49 years without any notable disruption and the hoopla that this case has become, I don't see how posting a contrary banner would not be disruptive in that community. It was not a contradiction, it was an opinion.
Perhaps, during the last 49 years, there was indeed 'notable disruption' that didn't make it into the public eye. Since the hoopla has now surfaced and is under criticism, we can assume there was most likely notable disruption all along.
And, while I agree a contrary banner would be disruptive to that particular community, we are talking about what is relevant to the community at large, that being the separation of state and church.
Possibly, but as I have tried to convey that the banner was a student led activity and not something imposed on the students by the school. Certainly, the banner was imposed on students that do not have the same belief system but since it was students and not the school then there is no conflict between the state and church.
I would take a completely different stance if it were the school that hung the banner and imposed it upon the students. That scenario would definitely be a conflict with the separation clause. But as far as I have read into this case, that is not the situation. This was student created, student supported.
Would this even be an issue if it were located at a State funded college? I doubt it, since I first attended a State College and can't remember a single time entering the student union and not being besieged by every sort of religious or anti-religious group, not to mention those darn Young Republicans It is the same situation, student led activities do not trigger the separation clause.
But even if it was purely a student created thing, it was hung in the school for years after the student graduated. Obviously the school continued to display it and therefore support it.
No doubt that some employees of the school, and the school board, fully supported the banner, they are after all members of the same community. They did not impose it upon anyone, nor did they remove it because it most likely became a symbol of that school's pride. The 'school' as you call it did not display it, the school's authorities allowed it to remain displayed. I see a huge difference even if it is just semantics. Did you read the banner? Except for the words 'Heavenly Father,' and 'Amen' I would bet that similarly worded banners and murals are in every single public high school in America. And honestly, if I were an authority at the school in question I wouldn't have placed a tarp over the banner, I would have taken some black electrical tape and redacted those 'offending' words until the issue is resolved at appeal.
Semantics aside, there is no law stating that school authorities cannot support religion, they cannot impose it on students in the same way they cannot impose upon them to say the Pledge of Allegiance.
Pcunix - and people say Christians are hate filled.
"They have that right. They can pray their ugly little hearts out. The SCHOOL can't post prayers.
They can write their silly prayer on paper and carry it in their pockets, take it out and ooh and Ahh whenever they want. They have lost nothing."
That is the most hate filled statements I read on this thread.
Separation of church and state?
Where and when was a church mentioned on this banner?
The constitution does NOT say separation of any and all religious beliefs AND state.
Separation of church and state means that "Any" particular church orginization can not bear rule over the operations of the government; AND the Government can not "Indorse" a particular faith.
The government won't be pushed nor be pushed by any particular religious persuasion.
This and this alone was the intent of and for separation of church and state.
Yep! that's the answers. thanks
Everyone should have that attitude
In this case, yes.
Smart people DO have this attitude. Smart religious people and smart agnostics and smart atheists. Religion is for people, not for the State.
This is true. The people hung the banner ... not the state.
And because a generic religious God is mentioned; the government interveined because a teenager couldn't just get over it!
The government told those people that they can not say the word GOD or AMEN.
Where will it end?
Wrong. The school hung the banner. Get your facts straight.
THE School hung the banner?
Members (people) of the school hung the banner which had a great thought;
Unfortunately a generic term for "A" dieity was mentioned. god.
The school was not pushing any particular religion.
It really is this simple; Atheism against theism.
Atheism wins again because they can't get over the fact that the majority of people are theist.
I think, as you said earlier .... get over it.
I do not push my beliefs on anyone, I guess I go not have the right to express my opinion unless I remove the generic word (God)from it.
How about public streets? Can I say God on a public street which is owned and operated by the state?
I couldn't make it through this entire thread.. it's peculiar what some people advocate as 'Christian'. I can't imagine living with so much hatred and judgment.
By the way, if you want to help fight this type of nonsense, consider joining http://www.au.org/
I have been a member for many, many years.
The 'header' of that website was: "Americans United for Separation of Church and State is a nonpartisan organization dedicated to preserving church-state separation to ensure religious freedom for all Americans.
Well, there's ya freedom for ya... So a person might as well accept it, right?
Threatening the girl for standing up for her beliefs is deplorable. That said, it must have been expected considering that she lives in the "most Catholic" state in the Union. Where is the ACLU now? They talked this girl into filing this case (according to the article)
The Rhode Island chapter of the A.C.L.U. then asked Jessica if she would serve as a plaintiff in a lawsuit...
Shouldn't they assume some of the responsibility to protect her now? I know she shouldn't need protecting in a civil society but there is nothing civil about attacking one's belief system.
Personally, I don't see anything offensive in that banner. I don't see it as an enforcement of school prayer since nobody was being asked to recite it. I don't see it as an establishment or endorsement of any religion. I compare it to the "under God" portion of the Pledge of Allegiance or the "In God We Trust" printed on our currency.
Personally, I'm not a religious person but I am spiritual. I'm also a veteran that took an oath to defend the Constitution and its citizen. I will not however defend bigots. I find religious bigots, which include Christian extremists as well as ardent atheists, to be just as nasty as and deplorable as racial bigots.
This is why we ban everything except the things that make money and people rich. I only wonder how long it will be until every church will be fighting to still be one? I doubt that the atheist of the World will do anything to protect their freedom. When everyone has no freedom then they will be completely satisfied I guess?
So why does this put every Christian in one group. Did you know all serial killers are actually atheist? I bet your just like them. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.
Read the title to this hub and what does it say? They wrote the same crap in Nazi Germany and it was butcher time. None of it was true but they had their fun any way.
Yes the title to this thread would steer one to believe that the threats came from Christian zealots when it is more likely they came from immature classmates/alumni full of school pride seeing a nearly 50 year piece of their school history attacked and vilified.
It may be that the people that gave the threats call themselves Christians, but to through all Christians under the bus because of the mistakes of a few is just wrong.
I agree and to be clear I'm not doing that. I'm surprised and disgusted by the behavior of those that are doing the threats.
There's plenty of adults in on the action too, like the state politician I referenced. Anyway your statement depends on your definition of "zealot."
Christians are just so sensitive about everything these days. If you don't enthusiastically declare allegiance to Jesus and the almighty, you are hostile to Christianity. If you don't allow Christians to color outside the legal lines, you are anti-Christian and trying to destroy Christianity. It's ridiculous.
Leave people alone, and stop trying to get everyone to respect and admire your own private beliefs. Simple.
Yea, I referenced 'alumni' that should have triggered the thought of adults.
Christian's aren't the only ones being too sensitive. Besides, I would bet that the aggression in this case is coming more from a traditionalist standpoint rather than a religious standpoint. As I stated, my high school has a similar mural that has been a central point for more than 80 years. If anyone were to challenge that mural I would put my full financial support behind preserving it and as a member of my alumni association which is 5000+ strong, including lawyers, judges and ranking state politicians, I'm sure we could raise a strong legal fund. Not because I have passionate Christian background but because I'm passionate about the history and traditions of my school. It's just a matter of pride that would be hard to understand unless you grew up in my community and went to my school. I graduated 25 years ago but I still go to every homecoming game and tailgate with my former classmates and teachers.
Also, the only place I ever see anyone debating religion is on the internet. Not one time in my professional career or among my social peers have I ever heard a passionate debate about religion. Further, I could care less if anyone online respects or admires me because nobody that I interact with online has any influence in my professional or social circles. And of the people I interact with online, I can care less what side of the line they stand on. I'm not going to call their beliefs stupid like some people on this thread would. It's not my place to sway anyone to believe what I believe. To each his own.
The line between "tradition" and "religion" is often very thin.
There is room, or should be, for religious symbols in a purely traditional/ historical context, but it must be VERY well defined and clarified. I don't think this case fits the bill. Many ancient cathedrals in secular Europe, for instance, would qualify. In that case, it's a part of history and human heritage above and beyond the religious message.
"Also, the only place I ever see anyone debating religion is on the internet."
Lol, haven't you heard? It's kind of controversial. Not exactly for polite company. I don't know anything about your background, but you probably don't associate with the kinds of people who care about it that much. I have, so I have come across plenty of people willing to discuss these issues.
Look, just because something is really old doesn't mean it should be maintained. Times change, sometimes we have to let go of the past and move on.
My point exactly we really do not care if you believe in God but judge yourself.
Sometimes, getting your 15 minutes in the spotlight comes with a price. I wonder if anyone noticed that she was given %13,000 by an atheist group based in Wisconsin.
Was she hired to file the suit?
I am not sure that it matters. The thing about the law is, it's the law--regardless of who asks for the ruling or why.
If you disagree with the ruling you have to lobby to change the law--not criticize the person who asked for it to be applied.
It probably would have just been simpler to take a few words out of the thing, and it would no longer be considered a prayer. If you read the thing it just demonstrates healthy behaviors that anyone would agree with, but because it had god in it, it was a big taboo. Fortunately it's just another war between atheists and christians, and I guess until people learn the simple lesson of getting along and settling their differences, we aren't exactly showing by example how to get along. We've been doing this for centuries, somehow people just don't get it, and feel drama, chaos, and crisis is better way to deal with things from what ever side you look at it. The girl may have just started it to get attention, and so she got the attention, but at the same time kind of reaped what she sowed. I don't think people should be threatening her, or being at war, and grown-ups should be better examples. But of course if we were the perfect example to our children half the teenagers problems in our society wouldn't be occuring, there wouldn't be addiction, pornography,sexual stuff going on. I think its crazy the way teens are in this generation and they though mine was mad. They have access to porn, sleeping together and having sex with same sex, and threesomes etc. I have no clue what is wrong with the parents these days, or the whole world for that matter in a lot of areas. I understand there is nothing i can do, and the big war about prayer in schools, that just stupid in my opinion. Not like they sit there all day praying just because a sign is up on the wall. If you don't believe in God, don't believe in him. Who cares. Don't look at it than, be on your way and move on. Your worried about a prayer influencing your child, which is better than parents smokeing dope, alcohol,porn, abusing your children physically, sexually, and emotionally. My God wake up people, your example, and your actions affect your children, and you're worried about a piece of board with painted words on it.
Yes, like the title and opening and closing statements for example, "School Prayer - Our Heavenly Father - Amen"
Not really, it was probably the title. "School Prayer"
No, it isn't, it is Christians evangelizing their beliefs on others.
Really. You believe all she was out to do was get attention and you agree with the treatment she received?
Fine, then you have no problem with Muslims, Jews, Scientologists, or any religion placing their own banners of prayer and belief all over schools? I didn't think so.
The banner represents a group of people (Christians) telling others to pray. How do you compare that to your other examples? You're talking apples and oranges.
Perhaps, you're unaware there are many parents who don't smoke dope or abuse their child sexually and emotionally. Is that the only lifestyle you know?
I am not condoning war between religions, or forcing anything on atheists. I don't think she should be treated the way she is. I just think people over exagerate when it comes to prayers in school. I don't remember anyone having these issues when I went to a public school. We didn't pray, and of course you could reverse it around and say atheists are demanding that everyone else fit their bill. I already know atheists have magazines, places they meet, and use the same amendment in prisons and the military to supposedly "Not minister to their own kind." Seems like some times athiests just want to do the same thing as any religion does to them. It's not claimed to be a religion, yet use the same exact ammendment in court to defend your point. So is it okay to have atheist magazines in school. Would this be better, or a news paper? I'm sure if we went along with that idea it would be okay. lol you complain about others, but do the same exact thing trying to prove your point. No one wins. It just is an endless argument that never ends. So what is the point. We should just accept other peoples differences and move on, instead of getting them to follow our own particular paths. Save the drama and the trauma. There is nothing ever accomplished but abuse between both parties verbally and emotionally.
Our Heavenly Father,
Grant us each day the desire to do our best,
To grow mentally and morally as well as physically,
To be kind and helpful to our classmates and teachers,
To be honest with ourselves as well as with others,
Help us to be good sports and smile when we lose as well as when we win,
Teach us the value of true friendship,
Help us always to conduct ourselves so as to bring credit to Cranston High School West.
Think the first line and the last line have to do with God. The rest of it I guess you're saying is you don't like being good sports, having healthy relationships, friendships, be helpful to others, etc. lol Are you saying that Atheists just don't like being nice to people. None of this in these exact words are in the bible, or say anything about religion or Jesus saves the day. I just think its funny because I though the atheists that I knew personally believed in being kind and decent people. On the other hand according to you I must be wrong. The only thing that could be offensive is heavenly father, and amen. Which don't really say a whole lot!
You honestly think that anyone who thinks the banner should be taken down Atheist or other, doesn't believe in being a decent human? They must disagree with everything said on the banner then? That's just silly logic.
I didn't say that, I was saying that the prayer in question has two lines stating something about religion. So if you don't agree with what it says, because it has two words in it, you can't ignore the words inbetween. So you are totally against all of it, or for it. If you you are saying it is prayer and only affiliated with God. Those words inbetween can be written in a class room but it would be okay, but because it says two words you don't agree with than omg, we better take it down. So you are offended by what the whole thing says, or you're not. It's that simple.
That IS offensive and DOES say a whole lot. Do you understand?
No, they don't.
Here is the most amazing thing: they really do NOT understand. They don't get it. Most of them don't even understand why our Constitution protects individuals from the tyranny of the majority, never mind how that applies here.
Unintelligent? Maybe some, but that won't fully explain it. Uneducated? Almost a given, but here they have been presented with ample opportunity to learn.
So why? Why are they so willfully clueless?
I'd say because they feel threatened. There is a war against religion - it isn't purposeful, but religious beliefs are always collateral damage as science progresses and science is progressing very swiftly indeed right now. They feel that the ground they stand on is shrinking, forcing them into uncomfortable corners. Therefore, they lash out where they can, viciously defending their beliefs (very vicious in the case of the lovely little Jesus freaks threatening that girl).
So no, they don't understand.
Of course not, it's your religion that is being portrayed. And, you didn't answer the question as to whether or not you mind if other religions did the same thing in that school?
Can I put up a banner next to that one that says, "God is Dead"? Can a Muslim put up a banner with their prayers?
No, they aren't, that is entirely not true.
That is entirely false and you know it.
It only ends when believers stop evangelizing and telling us what to believe and how to behave.
We would accept the difference as long as religious beliefs are kept behind closed doors, where they belong.
It's not a war between Atheists and Christians. It could have been a Muslim asking the banner be taken down. The point is that it shouldn't have been displayed and they were called on it. I'm still surprised that some on here are not exactly that disturbed that she is being threatened and bullied. I just think it should be a no tolerance thing. She reaped what she sowed? I hope the people that are so angry can calm down soon and move on and maybe the ones harrasing her can appologize. Jesus would probably like that.
" Don't look at it than, be on your way and move on."
It could just as easily be said that a religious believer shouldn't need a banner on the wall in order to believe. Just say your prayer, be on your way, and move on.
Well with all the death threats she's been receiving maybe it's a good thing the banners were taken down. Just proves that many Christians are nothing more than hipocrites that will resort to violence if they don't get their way. And to think that Jesus Christ, the one they follow, preached about love and peace. If these people truly followed Christ, they'd be helping people, not terrorizing kids that don't share the same beliefs. What a backwards world we live in.
I would say that it's not about just Christian's having their way, it's all religions and atheists having their way. An that is my exact point amy and fortunately not all Christian's act this way. It people in the world that choose to have to right and no matter what culture, ethnic back ground, country, religion, non-religious, atheist world. Someone always feel their beliefs out weight the others, and of course like I said for centuries man in general has done this no matter who they are just to prove their point no matter who gets killed, or how much blood shed. Peace is the answer, but we don't seem to understand how to get along with others that are different no matter what the cause or problem. It could be as simple as Coke and pepsi, or football team, or anything else people are passionate about and disagree on.
Yes, we do understand how to get along, that is why the banner must come down.
Well why don't you just hang every religion and atheist sayings on the wall and we can all be happy that way too! lmao!
Sure, then thousands upon thousands of banners will litter every school.
Or rather, the best approach is to have none, Christian, Muslim, atheist or otherwise.
Do you understand?
Well I'm glad we go to different skills! Glad you be happy at yours, and I'll be happy at mine. I guess I already know I'm a peacemaker, so I love all unconditionally and no how to visit the atheist school and get along without harming anyone. I know how to stay neutral. lol I think I'm just bored today, because I'm not a victim of religion or atheism. I usually stay out of forums just because I have no point in arguing, because it is just stupid. lol
Well that could work until the satanists want to be represented too. I suspect they would all come down after the first "All hail Satan" banner was hung. Don't you think?
Maybe because I don't want my kids exposed to any of the crap? Oh wait, parent's don't get a say in what their kids are forced to be exposed to. Why should they, when obviously the kids themselves don't get a say.
*Files off to teach sex education to Christian 8 year olds and satanism to baptist toddlers*
That is bull, I don't know what school your kid goes too, but I'm very aware of what my child is exposed too. lol If you don't know I guess you don't pay attention. lol you have the choice to send your child to what ever school you want too. lol
And, you have the choice to send your kids to a private Christian school if you want to have prayer banners hanging on the walls, but not a public school.
Do you understand?
I homeschool. My older children go to public school when they are old enough to think for themselves rather than have someone else's believes shoved down their throats.
Really I never read in any religion or the bible where it said, please go out and dress in white, tie them to a tree, beat them, kill them for their skin color.
Melissa? So? Turn me in tattle tale....
I flagged it, yep. Now, was that tattle tale comment a personal insult?
Subpoet already knows it is against the rules as some of us have already informed him of such. No wonder he has such a problem with laws too. If the banner had the name of a Muslim god on it most protesting the removal would feel just the opposite. Ho hum!
What you have to understand is that you guys are such losers to do that. You are pitiful. I don't care if they ban me. You are the one's who are such tiny little people... you turn on me even though my link supports your position. That shows how shallow minded and emotional you are. You are pathetic.
People have been banned for calling others "pathetic", so good luck with that.
Explain to me what YOU think this forum would look like if it allowed self promotion?
"I just wrote a great hub on elephant urine - read it now!" (moderator please note that I did not).
Repeat every other post..
OOps. we forgot the rules do not apply to YOU! Just everyone else! Aren't you special?
What's interesting though is if what you say is true and what you linked supports their position and they still reported you for doing something not allowed it totally proves that taking down the banner is right. It's not about sides and beliefs it's about what's right and the law or rules. A Christian could have easily pointed out that the banner shouldn't be there.
I would fight for it simply because people have the freedom to believe what they want to believe, just like writing for example, would you like the goverment to sensor and take your freedom to write your beliefs. I think you would fight for that. I'm not going to tell anyone what to believe, it's there choice and life.
So you would be okay with a KKK rally at your child's school? Why or why not?
KKK is a threat to human life. A prayer does not kill you, or cause violence on the living flesh. It is abusive and inhumane. This particular prayer in question sits on a wall. Is a belief written in words. It does not raise its arms to beat others, start fires, racism, or judge others. It is teaching people to behave themselves, and take responsibility for their actiosn and behaviors. It is opposite of violence. Just as freedom to write you write what you want too, it has consequences. Hate crimes is quite different than setting an example to get along.
From the KK website:
"But our people - my white brothers and sisters - will stay committed to a non-violent resolution"
Not that I believe them any more than I believe you. But that is what they say..
A KKK rally is not a threat to a human life... unless the other side attacks. But okay, we'll roll with that... A KKK banner then? They have the right to hate black people and should have the right to express their beliefs... Just like those "GOOD Christians" that support the banner have the right to threaten a girls life.
Strongly disagree with your analogy there MB.
I see the KKK as being racist,and much like Hitler in manner and attitude, and would never support any of their rallies or ethos.
They may have freedom of speech ,but they are not above the law,much of what they believe in is 'against the law' so nope no banners for them.
I would say the same about Westboro Baptist.
Also no matter the name of the group,another words whatever their label is not relevant,but more their actions or intention.
I see your religion as being racist, too.
And, neither are Christians who want their religious prayer banners on public school walls.
There is stuff in the Bible that is also against the law. Notice that we don't stone people to death for working on Sundays?
And yet so many blacks and Hispanics are Christians. Yeah... just like all the blacks and Hispanics who joined the KKK... yeah... I see your point. Thanks for helping us out with that.
Obviously, you didn't, but you can read all about it and find the various verses used in the origins of Christian racism...
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/ … s_12_4.htm
Don't play dumb. You know good and well that Christianity today is INCLUSIONARY to all races and the KKK is a racist organiziaton, period. You are failing in your attempts to be rational in that you will embrace any argument however marginal in order to destroy Christianity.
In fact I'd say Atheists have more in common with the KKK than do Christians because you guys live for one thing: to feed your hatred of Christians just like the KKK is a one-trick pony. You have no hubs on this forum. You are here for one thing and one thing only. It's your obsession. Just like the KKK you are an extremist.
What's funny about this is that I'm not even a Christian. But if you and the other "elites" are examples of Atheists then I'd rather believe in Santa Clause than be like you.
A lot of Christians are doing a good job of that already.
Not all atheists hate Christians. Do all Christians hate atheists?
Priming Christian Religious Concepts Increases Racial Prejudice:
"They subliminally primed one group of students with neutral words like “butter” and “hammer” and another group of students with Christian words like “gospel” and “heaven,” each of which flashed on a computer screen for half a second while the students were performing a task. Then the researchers tested the students attitudes toward blacks.
Researchers offer some possible explanations for why these Christian terms have such negative effects. They can cue fundamentalism or political conservatism, which can isolate “out-groups,” or echo the notion of the Protestant work ethic, which has been connected with anti-Black attitudes, the study said."
https://bearspace.baylor.edu/Wade_Rowat … 20SPPS.pdf
And yet, it is quite evident you are the one spitting the venom here.
EK, I love you and you know it.
However, I see the kind of Christians that fight for their religion to be forced upon others as just as dangerous as the KKK.
Neither allows for anything other than their own view. I'm sorry to say this, but the way the community is reacting to this poor girl, I don't think you can prove me wrong.
Many Germans once believed that Hitler wasn't a threat either.
..The KKK as a group are not permitted entry to many countries,why?
Because they incite and stir up dissension
And, Christian missionaries don't incite and stir up dissension?
I agree EK and obviously I don't support the KKK. (Mainly because I would be a shining bright beacon screaming "Come burn a cross on my yard") But, they do consider themselves a Christian organization and have a slew of bible passages that they bend to support that claim. Much like a number Conservative Christians bend them to support homophobia.
Exactly, in a public school, which is why it must be taken down. Do you understand yet?
They HAVE that right. Taking down the stupid banner doesn't stop them from believing, from carrying bibles to every class, from stopping in the halls, dropping to their knees and praying their darling little hearts out.
Stop implying otherwise.
typical snot nose comments... Melissa, are you equating the KKK to normal Christians?
If everyone has the right to express their beliefs, then yes the KKK has the same rights.
So yes, in a way I am. The KKK's beliefs are largely based on the bible.
Because I sarcastically referred to them as "little darlings" after reading the disgusting threats and comments these lovely creatures have been handing out?
Ohh, ex-cu-zzzz-e me.
Exactly. You guys are fascists. All you do is complain and bitch and act like little girls who don't get their way. It's hysterical.... "Self-promote!!!!" "Christians!!!!"
And imagine Dorothy yelling "Aunty Em" in the Wizard of Oz... that's how shrill you are... you guys need to get a life....
Defending the rights of minorities is such an AWFUL thing to do!
Bullies rule! Group-think is right-think! Go-o-o-o team!
I haven't exactly seen the light yet, to join the mob squad here by their example. They complain about example and treatment, and really aren't very nice individuals from their actions. Example talks! Can't see the difference between what your complaining about and what your actions are speaking. lol
Let's just both pretend young Jesus was real and stopped in to visit those wonderful young Christians who are calling for blood.
Who's side might he take?
Right - he'd be piling up the stones, I'm sure. Cheering on the crowd: "Beat her to a pulp!".
Yeah, that makes sense..
In your case, the irritation comes from the same source... No one wants to have what they consider garbage pushed on them. Your poetry... Conservative Christian ideology... both bad.
I don't care what you think about my poetry. But what I am as a person is so much better than what you pretend to be because you are an extremist who is obsessed with your hatred of Christians. I don't hate anyone but I do laugh at people like you who are so clearly vindictive. You turned me in. It's really unbelievably funny how easily you are provoked. And yet you and Puny think you are elite thinkers.
I AM an elite thinker.
I agree with that 100%.
No...... your'e not. You've memorized some things and are now begging for recoognition but you started with yourself because you have a need to convince yourself... but what you fail to understand is how emotionally immature you are.... You are incredibly petty with your need to follow rules and procedures which is a sign of obsessiveness. And you entire being can be summed us thusly. Pretend we just met.... I say, Hello I'm Mark" You say, "Hello. I'm an atheist. I am a superior human being. Oh yeah, my name is [whatever your name is].
Here is how I know that you are one-dimensional. You fell into a trap and it was so easy. I posted a link to a piece I wrote damning Christian zelaots. But because you are obsessed with being an Atheist it flew by you and we became adversarial. The reason is because you can't think straight when someone challenges you and that is the mark of egocentric thought processes which is not how an elite thinker operates. You can't believe that anyone wouldn't follow your reasoning so you lose it even when that person is actually agreeging with you. So you resort to the petty tactic of accusing me of promoting myself when in fact I was tricking you.
When you become a master of your emotions and your obsessions then you will be emotionally mature.... until then you are acting like a person who just needs attention and validation from others and that is not the sign of an elite thinker; it's only the sign of an elitist.
I'm also an "elite thinker," and, when you get a chance, can you please diagnose me? This is soooo awesome; HubPages comes with free psychic readings and whatnot. Oh, what's next? ...Let me guess, the how-to for "Quantum Jumping?" Rock on... LOL!
I'll have to see your insurance card. Pcunix spent the deductible on this thread. It's not a psychic reading by the way. It's based upon his actual postings. I'm a bit disappointed in you for such a self-styled elite thinker. It's clear you need an analysis.....
That's what I want, an analysis from you. I'm tired of all these critiques from angry atheists and extreme religious folks, as I'd like you to declare your diagnosis upon thee, and explain your version of quantum entanglement and OBE and perhaps, if we really get really desparate, we can do that whole "quantum jumping" thing that I was originally joking about; fun-fun! I'm taking a seat today, as I'm about to learn something new... Hurrah, hurray, yay!
Oh Wow, all this mud-slinging is such fun, can we all join in?
Excuse me a moment, a bit of mud has splashed on my rose-colored spectacles, and I can't see straight!
I'm not an atheist. I flagged you because the post was self-promotion. I don't particularly give a fig what it said or which viewpoint it supported. It wasn't a "trap" it was you trying to get people to read your "poetry". Try and take it personally if you like. I have children, I've heard every possible reason to defend breaking the rules. "You don't like me" is one of the most predictable.
Think I agree with you Suburban, they really should go study some more, because apparently they don't know what there talking about half the time. lol I think you can always tell people that do their research and doesn't in many feilds. If people want to argue and debate they really should have the knowledge behind their statements. Everyone knows in pyschology, social work, and scientifically that you can program people to believe in every culture, family, home, and belief. Generational I might add. You've been programmed by your own parents and family to think they way you do, and of course if you are self aware, you understand you can change your belief patterns, behaviors. Maybe they better do there homework before they come back Suburban! lol
Did you inherit your religion or discover it on your own? How many religions did you investigate before choosing the one you now follow? And exactly which cult do you follow?
Well, as an English Major I can tell you need a spell-check badly and that his poetry really sucks. My minor was sociology and I agree with what you said about children being imprinted... which kinda supports why I DON'T want religious banners up in my children's school. My first degree was in law, so I can say on pretty educated terms that the banner does violate SOCAS.
Anything else on which I'm uneducated? LMAO.
We don't know what we are talking about?
Ri-i-i-gtht. That's why the banner still hangs, obviously.
lol I don't think you can say just Christian, I have native american, budah teachings and the whole 9 yards. So I think you offending the world, and fortunately all people that do understand we all affect one another. I even have some atheist in there somewhere too. Hmm....offending yourself as well.
I'm not an atheist. My religion isn't the point, the point is I don't like any religion pushed on my children. Even my own.
As a parent, I have the RIGHT to say what my child is exposed to. Your rights do not supersede mine. I can't unteach my child exposure to religion. You can teach yours religion. Please do so if you wish... In your own home.
Yes, they do, but they don't have the freedom to place those beliefs on banners in schools. Again, the freedoms you have to believe in whatever you want is only the freedom to keep it behind closed doors. Don't abuse those freedoms or they'll be revoked.
Your children believe what ever you program in your heads, can be changed they even prove that in the military. lol
Go study psychology Troubleman! Half the worlds problems stem from what you've been programmed, or learned from society, media, family, culture, and ethnic group. Military knows exactly how to do it and experimentented. It makes perfectly sense.
I don't need to study psychology to know you're talking nonsense.
Well I guess you just don't understand nonsense when it is out there in many forms across the internet, and books, and media. So I guess it is proven research and nonsense.
I assure you I have studied plenty all over the world. lol I don't follow any group, church, or cult. I studied on my own. I've even been called the Lone Ranger. lol I believe in being and independent thinker and of course not to allow anyone to tell me what to think or believe. It is my choice.
Well do you have to be right! Cause I don't have to be right about anything. I understand quite well every man on this earth is fallable, right and wrong, and learning the same lessons in life. Apparently you the atheist magazine isn't teaching you enough, to learn to stay neutral, and not get all bent out of shape over things. Obviously you enjoy being here arguing, and creating what you do, because it is all pointless. You can't change anyone, fix them, convince them, or persuade them to believe anything. For some reason atheist magazine didn't teach you this. So of course you have to sit here and argue with everyone to make your point trying to convince them of something in forums. I've only been here today since about 9-10 months ago. I was bored today and needed a good laugh. Of course it is a waste of my time and energy when I could just be doing other fun things. So I thought I would give you a chance today and harass me, but again no one is pushing my buttons, or rattling my cage. So I'm just happy. You have no effect on me. You're a person somewhere out there that obviously has nothing better to do as well. lol
Oh of course its always been encouraged to interact with fellow hubbers. I'm so glad I gave you some attention today. Didn't learn anything new though. lol
Yay they do! Isn't that something, books too, and a building they all gather in! Even have some kind of "Not-minister" in prisons, and of course even ones in the military. Even use the same amendent to get these Not ministers. Fight for the rights. lol It seems so similar to church, and religion, but I've been told it's "Not a religion when it comes to atheist"
Sure. There's a great article in this month's issue about trapping little fundies and deprogramming them. Very useful!
I went to the beginning of this thread. I read the N.Y. Times article. I have copied some here to read from Jesica Ahlquist's reply to why she wanted this banner to come down and it reads:
Does she empathize in any way with members of her community who want the prayer to stay?
“I’ve never been asked this before,” she said. A pause, and then: “It’s almost like making a child get a shot even though they don’t want to. It’s for their own good. I feel like they might see it as a very negative thing right now, but I’m defending their Constitution, too.”
I see no difference between my belief to promote the gospel for the good of mankind and an atheist belief to denounce the gospel.
Perhaps those who dont like the colors on our nation's flag would be next to challenge and try and have that removed as well. It was for their own good of course.
Of course you don't see any difference, that's the problem. You are not promoting anything for the good of mankind when you evangelize your religion, so please stop.
She is not denouncing the "gospel." She is fighting to apply the law.
There was a similar story to this around May last year I just read about. A Louisiana high school student asked his principal to stop an official prayer that had traditionally been a part of the graduation ceremony. He threatened to go to the ACLU. The principal accepted the request, and cancelled it.
But the students at the ceremony took matters into their own hands and had an impromptu prayer anyway. And the crowd loved it (of course).
The student himself was the recipient of bullying, harassing, threats and even some death threats.
Nothing like a religion of "love."
christians or hindu or muslim or atheist is superficial tags...religion is man made and beneath it lies human...humans have amazing capacity to ridicule , hate , threaten someone who doesnot believe in their story in which they believe passionately...
As a true Christian believer, I respect your opinion as it comes from your mind, not from your heart and spirit.
I am appalled by your claim of generalization. If others have hated Jessica, this is clearly not of Christ. But for those who continue to pray for you and Jessica, and for all those who may refuse in their heart to believe, I pray that you may soon see the light of Jesus shining on you and your love ones, if you truly love them, as you may care for their redemption, in this life and onto the afterlife, for only in God's love and mercy in Jesus, and your forgiving heart, may one truly see greater peace , joy and good health in this life.
Hey guys, were can I sign up for these atheist mags? I know I am agnostic but would love to read the literature, never even heard of atheist mags until this thread! I guess I live under a rock or something
"I think" that Jesus would tell YA ; that if you have got hate in your heart, that you missed something in his message!
OH, ... I forgot, only about 0.00001% of his message was included in the bible. continue as before.
Have you ever considered the idea, that Jesus, isn't real?
Considered it, but that don't make any sense to me.
If that were true ; that would throw everything else out of wack.
What if everything else, was, out of whack D:?
OOps ... had to go lay down a minute.
Everything is out of wack if it doesn't have a center of ???? for lack of a better word ... gravity.
Something has got to be it! ... and it presented itself as a man.
Hey back atcha Eaglekiwi
don't ever ask an old person "How ya been", when Ya run into them at the grocery store or you are going to hear ALL about it. LOL
Thanks for asking ... I'm great considering the shape I'm in. Ha!
I've always said that it is a good day when we can get outa Bed and nobody is hitting us on the Head ... then it gets better.
As we get older this becomes even MORE true.
Hope all is well with you and yours.
Lol ok ,reminds self to be sensitive to the 'how ya been' enquiries.
Hadn't seen you for a little while I guess, and I remembered some good chats about religion etc.
I had not been here myself for a few weeks ,and when I did return learned about our dear hubber friend Earnest had passed.
Anyway youre not old Jerami,youre just a 30 yr old with years of experience (lol)
No reason to be more sensative, My remark about asking old folks that was meant to be funny, ... but I would be careful in public places. LOL
It takes some of us almost forever to tell Ya ALL about it.
i don't say much on here too often .. mostly listening in wonderment.
my old wore out back won't let me sit in this chair too long, & considering my A.D.D. and all.
Any way, it is always to see Ya in here.
edit time to go for a while .. later.
What??? Earnest passed? OMG. I am heartbroken.
You are talking about Aussie Earnest here?
I hope not IntimatEvolution! I would miss the aussie if it was. When did this happen anyway?
I am at a loss too.
Eagle come back to use and tell use what is going on girl!
Does anyone else know which Earnest Eagle was talking about?
It happened several weeks ago, Hattie. Very sad. There was a lot of tear shedding and sharing here on the HubPages at the time.
It seems crazy, I know, but if you really think about it, it makes sense?
There are zealots in every group. The true Christian understands the concepts of turn the other cheek and loving thy neighbor to be universal truths that do not foster racism. There is nothing in the words of Jesus (CHRISTIANS) that would allow someone to equate the KKK to Christianity except in the minds of other hating zealots.
Just like theirs nothing in the words of Jesus that would allow Christians to equate abiogenesis/evolution to creationism, expect in the minds of those Christians.
hmm.....I've been to lots of Christian churches in the past and never met any kkk, but maybe I just don't live in the right neighborhoos Troubled man, maybe you live in the right one. lol
Whether I do or whether I don't live in the right neighborhood does no preclude the fact the KKK believe in the same things YOU do, not me.
Has Hattie been burning crosses again on the lawns of African Americans?
I thought you gave all that up, Hattie. What gives?
Hattie.... give it up. These kind of people are just as marginal as the KIKK... .
It must be so frustrating to know the KKK share the same beliefs even though you don't agree with their interpretation... as frustrating as any one of the 38,000 known sects of Christianity having to share their version of Jesus with the others.
THAT is real marginalized faith.
I agree with you Suburban, maybe I better start a recovery group for them, but of course I don't think it will stop them from arguing in forums. So I will take your advice. Only those that truly want to help themselves will! I have a feeling we have a long..............wait! Like I said first time been in here in 9 months and nothing changed much! Won't count on it changing either. Guess we just can't help everyone in the world. We will be happy Suburban! lol That is for sure!
It's not even a discussion anymore of is there a God or isn't there. It is a discussion of their hatred. I'm out of it.... A Troubled Man's entire existence here on Hubpages is defined by his hatred of Christians. He has no hubs and is not interested in any other topic.
To say KKK = Christianity because they believe the Bible is like saying Atheists = Stalin/Mao/North Korea etc because they don't believe in God....
And I would never make that comparison because it's RIDICULOUS... but a hater cannot see the difference..... humans misinterpret many things in life and the failure to see this is a fatal flaw.....
Ah yes, Christians are just sooooo victimized, aren't they.
Hardly, considering the KKK are wielding the Bible as their guidance while Stalin and Mao were just despots.
<--- me hating
That's what you got out of that? That Christains are victimized? Sounds like it possibly went over your head.
Let me define your hate for you: It's all you think about. That is an obsession. It is driven by emotion.
I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic about Christians being soooo victimized. I see the "you're full of hate" argument has come out. I see no hate.
That's because you have a blind-spot. All he does is attack Christians. He has no other purpose. It is an all-consuming existence. But no.... that's not hate.
As for his comment being sarcastic or not; that is not the ponit. The pont is the comment had no context.
Yay, we were being sarcastic, Autumn, but for some reason Troubled has his own mission. What ever he is trying to accomplish, I guess he will be the only one that understands. It's useless arguing with him, alone talking to him, he just tries to turn it around on you, trying to make you look like you're the one breeding hate, when he is usually the one following underst instigating things.
You mean, like over my head when someone claims hatred towards people as opposed to criticizing and laughing at fairy tales?
Seems definitions are not your forte. Do you own a dictionary?
Trouble we no you're on the loose, and the only mission is to attack others probably for the fun of it. Who knows. You don't write hubs, so why are you even on hubpages, and you really don't share anything to help a better world out. So why you here? Other than to harass people!
I agree with you Suburban! I think Troubled by the remark above is feeling more victimized than us! Perhaps he will do a T.V. Show when he's older realising all the mistakes he's made like some of the grown up skin heads that grew up later in life and realised some day they had to face the music and Well, they were just plain haters!
So, now I'm a skinhead and a hater.
No morals or ethics whatsoever.
Usually, when someone insults others personally, like you and the poet, that is actually considered hatred.
Actually you were just reminding me of Oprah talking about she allowed skinheads to have a platform on her show and they were breeding hate. That she would never allow such a thing to happen again. Years later the skinheads were interviewed and they were ashamed of themselves for the things they said and done, and turned their lives around. You're the on bringing up the KKK, not us. You're the one that said we were victimized first. So you kind of reap what you sow. There is no hate in my body. You I don't know you, so can't tell you, but don't talk about groups like KKK if you don't want people to have the notion you're a hater. Not to mention you seem to follow forums and make yourself seem like one.
You personally might never make the comparison "Atheists = Stalin/Mao/North Korea etc because they don't believe in God" but if you're honest, you have to acknowledge that an awful lot of people who self-identify as Christians make *exactly* that comparison.
Angie - yes I know they do make that comparion. But it doesn't make them right anymore than ATM's comment makes him right.
Let me ask you something... is there any difference in you mind on the position the US government has taken over the years concerning religion and how Stalin or Mao "managed" it?
Hmm, on one side we have "You are absolutely entitled to the religious beliefs of your choice, or no beliefs at all, but you are not entitled to force others to worship as you do. And to that end, no governmental body or entity may embrace, endorse or promote *any* religious point of view or beliefs."
And on the other side, we have "Religion is absolutely and totally prohibited. You may not hold any religious views at all. In order to assure this, if you make the mistake of letting anyone know you have such religious views, you were be openly persecuted by the government, up to and including confiscation of your properly, arrest, beatings and even murder."
I really hope that your question is purely rhetorical BS, because I'm thinking anyone that doesn't see a difference between those two philosophies has some serious lacks in the critical thinking department.
I just wanted to hear you say it. Someone with your hatred of Christians might thrive under the right dictator. You might feel threatened under our government because you probably think they've been too tolerant of Christians.
I only see hatred in your response, not Angie's.
Interesting comment, given that you actually have no idea what my personal religious beliefs may be.
Sometimes I think Gandhi hit the nail on the head, though. "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They're so unlike your Christ."
Unfortunately, there are quite a few Christians (most certainly not all) whose religion seems to begin with announcing how much they love Jesus, but ends before they get to the part about following his teachings. Also unfortunately, this group tends to be extremely vocal with their total lack of respect for anyone that believes differently than they do, including Christians that embrace other dogmas. Essentially, what I believe is probably the majority of Christians end up being tarred with the intolerant actions of a vocal minority.
"Essentially, what I believe is probably the majority of Christians end up being tarred with the intolerant actions of a vocal minority."
Angie, do you think those majority of Christians are too often the silent majority? Do they too often just sit back and watch, complacently?
Jonny, to some extent, yes, I do. I don't know that I'd say they sit back and watch complacently, but I think that well-meaning people all too often don't realize just what kind of harm is being done to their 'image' by extremists who want to claim that they are the mainstream.
Where do you get the notion anyone was asking for your help or needed it?
I think that she got her notion the same place you got yours.
Where do you get the notion I'm trying to help her when it's obvious she doesn't need any help?
Wonders if Trouble is spider that likes going around in circles spinning webs, and waits for the bait and goes in for the kill. lol
I think that she got her notion the same place you got yours.
A Troubled Man wrote
Where do you get the notion I'm trying to help her when it's obvious she doesn't need any help?
= = = =
If you don't know the answer to your question ,?, you aren't as smart as I think you are.
From the KKK website:
Bringing a Message of Hope and Deliverance to White Christian America! A Message of Love NOT Hate!
PO Box 2222, Harrison, AR 72601
America, Our Nation is Under Judgement from God!
"There is a race war against whites. But our people - my white brothers and sisters - will stay committed to a non-violent resolution. That resolution must consist of solidarity in white communities around the world. The hatred for our children and their future is growing and is being fueled every single day. Stay firm in your convictions. Keep loving your heritage and keep witnessing to others that there is a better way than a war torn, violent, wicked, socialist, new world order. That way is the Christian way - law and order - love of family - love of nation. These are the principles of western Christian civilization. There is a war to destroy these things. Pray that our people see the error of their ways and regain a sense of loyalty. Repent America! Be faithful my fellow believers. "
National Director of The Knights, Pastor Thomas Robb
They maybe be crazy Christians, but they ARE Christians. Just as those who are threatening to kill that poor girl are. They maybe the crazy cousins of the family, but they ARE family. Stop worrying about what the mean old atheists are doing to Christianity and start worrying about policing your own. To me, this sounds a lot like what conservative Christians are saying about gays. Hmmm...
You are absolutely right here in what you wrote. 100% right. There is nothing more to been said really... You said it all right here!
Actually, the original analogy was not a comparison of the KKK to Christians, but the *rights* of the KKK to the *rights* of Christians. There IS a difference.
hmm...interesting maybe since you always bring up your a mother, you should start writing mother hubbard hubs! I'm sure parents out there would love it. Ha ha just joking Melissa! Just notice you always seem to point out your a mother. lol
LMAO. I probably do. Being a mom is the most important thing in my life and shapes everything I believe or do, so I guess it does come up often. My opinions are all heavily centered around the effect that whatever being discussed would have on the kids.
I'll try and notice it and correct it more often. Thanks for pointing it out.
yep, there is good christians and bad ones just like atheists, doctors, lawyers, dentists, teachers and on and on Melissa. Doesn't mean they are all the same. Each person speaks for themselves.
Of course, but Christians need to realize that each other individual is influenced by the "Christians" in their life. For many, that is a nasty experience when the majority of the representatives they have encountered aren't the "love and peace" Christians. For this girl, the word "Christian" will always strike her with the same fear that "KKK" would strike an African American.
There are many many others out there that have had other negative experiences. How would a big glaring prayer effect them when placed in an area that they HAD to be?
I'm all for freedom of religion. However, forcing it on a captive audience (especially children who are prone to terrorizing those who disagree with the norm) is reprehensible. Worship in your homes, in your churches, in the middle of a public park, but don't force worship on those who can't escape it.
No problem Melissa! Just kept noticing you were a proud mother! lol Nothing to feel bad about.
Well I have to agree with you. Exactly why I butt heads with my last church. They are good people, but I feel example says everything. Where I got the name "Lone Ranger Christian" Of course and very proud of it, because I understand If you don't walk the walk you have no business in my life. Although there are many that have from other churches. I just don't choose to get in Christian's wars between churches, or Religions. When someone starts claiming their the right way and example don't show, I don't really care what you saying. Actions speak louder than words. I have no idea where these particular groups are coming up with this, because it was nothing I ever learned anywhere in my life whether it was people of the faith, or non-believers. You can never be to careful who you hang around. It does rub off on you, but I guess instead of labeling groups, I look at the individual whether it is friends, family, partners, religon, or non-religion. I have friends of every kind all over the world, but I don't think I've ever hung out with K.K.K. and probably would just walk away. America allows them to roam around and they have for years, but the Goverment of course is corrupt themselves. So there example don't really say much. We need stronger leaders all over the globe that do what they say they are going to do, walk the walk, instead flapping their lips.
The government allows them to run around because it HAS to. Being a racist idiot is not, in and of itself, illegal. Stating an opinion or belief that is unpopular and to most other people wrong is also protected by the freedom of speech thing. They are also OUR Americans too.
That's kinda the reason I believe so strongly in separation of church and state. It may keep the peace and love Christians out of the school system, but it also keeps the hatred bound Christians out too. It has to be all or nothing, because once you get into A is okay but B isn't then you have a constant battlefield.
I think that maybe our schools should just be used for learning. Political and religious battles can be handled by the adults. Our children shouldn't be used as pawns or experiments in civic boundaries.
Yay, I'm not sure how it is in other states. I know they do here in my area keep out of schools. We also have our catholic and christian schools, or montesary, and charter schools. Maybe not such a big deal around here for that reason. Not to mention there overboard on churches on just about every corner of the town. I understand people's perspectives. Just sometimes think some make some issues bigger than they have to be on both sides. This situation they are talking about on this particular forum should have just been handled in a different way. It just shows we haven't learned much in our society by example no matter what side your on.
Sure, just like they let Christians roam around denying evolution, spewing hatred towards homosexuals, shooting doctors who provide abortions, etc.
It's not just the KKK sect of Christianity that has a monopoly on unethical and immoral behavior.
Let me guess now Trouble, you spoke to every Christian on the planet personally about they all agree on these things your saying. Yes there are some, but not all of them agree on that. Quit putting everyone together. You think collectively. I think individually. I guess we just have two different perspectives. One of my best friends was gay, and guess what he wasn't killed by a Christian. So I guess we could say collectively in your terms you could fit the bill in that scenarion not being a Christian and all.
EarnestsHub passed away around the end of October 2011. It has saddened the hearts of many Hubbers believers and non believers alike.
Edit: I went to the official HubPages blog and found the tribute to Earnest. You can view the comments by clicking the link.
http://blog.hubpages.com/2011/12/tribut … #more-4880
hmm...never can hold back the tears knowing you lose a great friend and writer!
I think you have your own reality and I have my own reality. Which reality is the correct one depends on the eye or the beholder. Your mind creates marvelous things every day Trouble! I'm sure you have some kind of fantasy going on in your mind at some point in time. Your brain is made up I think the same way any man's is, Your brain is very vulnerable to what ever you watch, read, hear. Irrational at times as well in your thinking. There is no way you can never be irrational 100% of the time. Not a whole lot of thinking I see going on in some of your posts either for that matter. You're just a mirror of some kind of darkness or light of the hidden rooms of your mind like the rest of us. No different than any other man on this planet and capable of all the same behaviors, actions, beliefs.
No Hattie, we all share the same reality, you have chosen to embrace a religious fantasy over and above reality.
No, it does not, reality depends entirely on itself and nothing else.
At least, I know its a fantasy and can distinguish it from reality.
Yet, unlike you, I don't embrace religious fantasies.
Well trouble, try to stay out of trouble I have things to do offline and I'm sure you can find someone else to harass in the mean time. lol
Trouble what ever your promoting isn't such a good thing, by the way you act, so I don't think you should be pointing fingers.
I'm so terribly sorry for promoting reality, I'm sure it is highly offensive to the ardent believer.
That the point Trouble you don't know what others believe or don't believe you go around bashing people without even knowing who they are, or what they are about. For example said I was supporting KKK and Christian's against Gay people. It really doesn't make sense when I like I said I have a friend that was Gay and killed by serial killers. Trying to accuse people of hate crimes when you never met them is pure stupidity. You may have generalizations about groups of people, but I think you have a lot to learn about society as a whole.
How is that possible when holy books are available everywhere and believers state and write incessantly and emphatically their beliefs everywhere and all the time?
Once again, you make the serious error that others are criticizing or "bashing" you or anyone else, but instead are ridiculing the myths and superstitions that are taken for reality. Why should I even be concerned with what you know or what you're about personally? That has absolutely nothing to do with the religious beliefs you embrace.
Really? And yet, some of you believers state I'm a hater of believers. Contradict much?
You have a lot to learn about reality.
This is the point :"That has absolutely nothing to do with the religious beliefs you embrace." What is it that I embrace? ?? You have no clue, only assuming from where you're standing. Second thought: You can write what ever book you want too. Free speech. All man's beliefs, not just religion, or Christian. Man as a whole has wrote many things that are reliable sources, others manipulated, tainted, or very well written. Who makes you the judge of us all. You seem to think you are some kind of Supreme Human Being Preaching to others about their faults. Negative and abusive in my book.
But, when I do write something about religious beliefs, I'm trolling and abusing you.
Reality judges us all, not me.
There you go again making false statements about abuse. Did I personally abuse you? Did I point out any personal faults of yours? No, so stop saying I did.
@ Suburban I think he feels victimized, or else he wouldn't keep complaining about other people or Christians. lol
Yes, that is what you believe, that I'm "victimized" by other people.
The reality is that mankind and societies are "victimized" by ancient medieval belief systems of indoctrination that have only ever served to hurt and oppress.
Dude I am a social worker I know when people have to troll just to attack people because they don't agree with someone's beliefs, they have a problem. You can be abusive by being sarcastic and bullying other people. I don't need to be victimized to understand when someone is just a bully to other people. You have your beliefs just like everyone else does, but if your focused on the negative things in life that is your own problem. You can't force others to believe anything, but you keep bullying Christian's for being in this world, and printing things. If you weren't in a victim mentality about it, you wouldn't be going around complaining about Christian's in the world. You would just move on with your life and be happy and co-exist. If you understood you can't change anyone than you would understand your just wasting your time and energy trying to convince people to be agnostic. You're doing the same thing you complain about in your own actions. Preach agnostic I really don't care, I just don't have a problem with people that have differences than me. You do, and you have a problem with anyone that is a Christian or believes in God for that matter. We're happy you don't have God in your world, but leave other people be and stop trying to attack people just because you don't agree.
You may be a social worker, but it is evident your posts show a complete lack of understanding the difference between criticizing beliefs and abusing people.
No, sarcasm is not abuse and I'm not bullying anyone.
But, you fail to understand the difference.
No, I don't. I embrace understanding, not beliefs.
Then, that is my own problem, isn't it? What does that have to do with abuse?
No, I'm criticizing the religion of Christianity, which you still don't seem to understand.
I complain about Christianity.
Christianity, and a host of other religions will never let anyone do that.
Where have I tried to change you to being agnostic or convince you of anything you don't wish to accept?
Am I threatening you with eternal damnation or proclaiming an invisible boogie-man is going to get you?
Obviously, you do, based on these very posts.
Once again, and I really, really, really hope this is the last time I need to explain this to you, the problem is with Christianity and religions in general. Do you understand that or will you keep making false statements about being victimized?
I'm attacking religious faith. Do you understand?
No you are are not abusing me, abusing people in general with your actions and behaviors towards Christian's and people who believe in God.
No you are are not abusing me, abusing people in general with your actions and behaviors towards Christian's and people who believe in God.
All you have to do is go back and read every forum post you ever wrote on hubpages. If you can't see it, than maybe you better keep reading your own writings.
HattieMattieMae versus A Troubled Man in an epic battle of divine, cosmic genders. Who will win in the end? Will the universe collapse on itself before the dispute resolves? Gravity can be a pain in the arse... So put your bets down, as the Vegas odds have now arrived at the booth... LOL!
I know what I wrote Hattie, and unless you can specifically point out exactly where and what I said that is personal abuse of others, you need to apologize.
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