I don't want a bunch of idiots throwing insults.
I want intelligent people discussing and debating logical points with sound reason.
Please don't clutter the thread with babble. I'd rather not start another one.
In the beginning, the universe began. In the present the universe exists. In the universe are clues and insights. This is a study of anything and everything ,intellectually, regarding the universe and it's coming into being.
A few basics:
None of this.
This won't help your point.
This will make you look ignorant.
This means you agree. Next point...
And absolutely no discriminating.
Logical points? Then why do you start with a logical fallacy, petitio principii,?
Brace yourself, Vector 7, you will not get a single answer to any of your questions. Atheists cannot answer any questions concerning how entropy is violated by random processes.
Let's take your first question: Why are atoms structured? I'll answer that. Because God, through Jesus Christ, created them that way. How do I know that? Their existence violates many of our laws of science, and only God can overpower the very laws of physics that He created. Their existence violates the law of the conservation of energy(mass). The law of the conservation of angular momentum asks the question, "How did the electrons begin orbiting the atomic nucleus, esp. so precisely?" The electrons travel 4.877 million miles per hour in the Bohr orbit( radius), which generates an acceleration of 9 X 10^22 meters per second^2. To put this force in perspective, a mass that weighs one pound on earth would weigh( have a force) of 4.6 X 10^18 tons if it was accelerated to the degree that the electron experiences.
Richard Feynman said that if the electrostatic charges were not cancelled between 2 grains of sand, 100 feet apart, then the force between them would be 3 million tons. I said 100 million in another forum, or comment, but I used bigger sand and put them closer together. This reveals the balance God designed into the electrostatic charges of protons and electrons. Incidently, if someone wants to bring up the quantum mechanical electron . . . that's fine. We will have to bump up the speed to 669.6 million miles per hour in the Bohr orbit, and go into the exquisite design that God put into the wave function.
Atheists have to explain God's magnificent creation via random processes fighting entropy. If they can't do that, then atheism is a religion based on conjecture; Christianity is based on evidences. I wrote in another forum, or comment on a hub( can't remember which) that the number of permutations within a single DNA molecule is 10^(50,000,000,000). If we fill our universe with sand there would be only 10^91 grains, and make the universe a billion times bigger and we only have 10^100 grains. So how can random processes fight the odds of 1 in 10^(50,000,000,000)?
I can answer that question. The Bible says at Job 38:36 that God put wisdom in the inward parts( probably space itself). The electromagnetic force builds DNA, proteins, and everything else, and it is the emf that accesses this information to exquisitely build complex organic molecules. God designed the emf, and everything associated with it.
Vector 7( is that 7 dimensional vector space?) you will get not answers from atheists on any of your questions. They may execute ad hominem "argumentation"; they may apply philosophical tripe; they may skirt around the issue in a million different ways. But what they will not do is answer your questions.
I was tutoring a student majoring in evolutionary biology. She got so pissed off by my questions that she dumped me as her math tutor. Talk about, Don't confuse me with the facts!
Are you posting nonsense out of ignorance or are you posting for the sake of posting?
I already signed off on my comment above, but I forgot one thing.
I did not write this for you, Vector 7. I already know you are saved and will spend eternity in heaven. I wrote it for those who need to open their blind eyes in order to see the copious evidences God has inundated us with.
Using an ancient book of childish fairytales to "prove" that God is the default to the unknowns, shows that you have no respect for science. So, essentially, you look ridiculous using science.
I bet you "taught" her about the Bacterial Flagellum. Proving, irrefutably, that Goddunnit!
An opinion without any substantial argumentation.
Because you have nothing to propose to defend your silly, primitive beliefs. And the nerve you have, trying to use science to prove that nonsense makes sense. You should be ashamed.
So, what did you learn from this? Let's start with mind you own business. Your job was math. Perhaps something you know about.
I never said I knew anything about math; however, I will admit I know how to add, and all the evidences add up to God, through Jesus Christ, is the Creator.
If you don't believe in Satan , the gift you bring belongs the the rightful owner
Nah, we hate lies and spread truth.
Everyone 'else' thinks lies are ok.. not us.
The greatest pass time in America is lying which is mainly made of Christian people.
That's like saying your a great used car salesman and you're the most honest man in the world
Unfounded first statement, so it's kinda like an indirect lie as there is no possible way you can know any single person's, let alone 'all' Christians hearts.
Keep up with the incorrect info. Your proving my point.
I worked half my Business in the USA, I know from experience.
They lie from the time you were born, saying you are the most beautiful thing they have ever seen, when you really like a slimy lizard.
Then you WE have Santa Clause, Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy then you can swallow bible fairy tales. And Then... it goes on to the end of time, then beyond that for eternity
Thank doG I'm not religious
Show real evidence, but the we don't know why therefore is must be a creator. All evidence backs evolution. All of it. Your only evidence is a 2000 year old deeply flawed book that can't stand up to todays scrutiny because they are no longer allowed to kill those who oppose it.
We all wonder why we are here, but perhaps we just are.
It's sounds more like you're dividing by zero!
atoms are structured because of force not because some spirit made them that way. like anything that exists, they react with their surrounding in a way that flows i guess would be the best way to put it.
That would be like saying skyscrapers and bridges and computers are all made by forces, but ignoring the engineers that designed how those forces are to be applied, the iron workers or technicians who have knowledge of how to build structures as skyscrapers, bridges and computers.
You are making my point, which is that God is the Designer Who directs the forces either directly of indirectly. Forces left to themselves as in explosions or fires( random heat, relatively speaking) build nothing.
Caleb your analogy isn't really correct. Skyscrapers and bridges, while they do have atoms deep within the materials, are not alive. Humans had to make them. Humans, animals and plant life are alive... we live and grow, skyscrapers and buildings do not. So, since they are not naturally occurring, of course they need to be built, but that doesn't offer any proof of an intelligent designer for life.
Also, you are incorrect that forces left to themselves build nothing. It may not always be useful or revealed to us right away, but we'll take your example of fire -- it burns, creating energy for itself and can even take away life due to the degree of burning or smoke inhalation; and the smoke it creates can be pollution which can affect our atmosphere and affect the evolution of the species as we may indeed get stronger lungs or smoke filters build into them or something over time. We don't really know, but it is possible. Let's not forget that when fire essentially kills something, it's making room for more. So, those may not be desirable side effects, but the forces you say left to themselves do build something.
His analogy is dead on key...
Alive or not, structure is structure and the point is made that bridges, skyscrapers, and computers are not made by random energy.
It takes purpose and direction to bring about function.
Without the 'intent' to fly, we would never have 'designed' airplanes.
And dragging back out the obvious basic began with, atoms are structured as well. More like mechanical programs of mico-management that interact with each other with consistency.
Interaction and consistency are traits recognised as pertaining to 'life'...
'Dead' things would not 'interact' with other 'dead' materials. [unless programmed to and given energy and structure within which to do so]
Especially not consistently, proving they 'recognise' what they are interacting with.
I snipped just this part of your twaddle.
Creationism is based solely in faith and not on 'facts' - this has been agreed time and again in these threads by intelligent people and dimwits alike.
So how can you claim that the student you were paid to teach (but chose to try and indoctrinate instead) was confused by 'facts' ???
What you were doing was using a position of trust to inflict your own views on a vulnerable young person - this is no part of academia, never has been and you should be fired if part of any institution.
I seriously don't care if you want to believe in creationism or not, but there should be a distinction between teaching theology and teaching science. If you are supposed to be teaching evolutionary biology (and I'm not sure how math got in there anyway) then you present accepted evolutionary biology. Teaching anything else is educationally irresponsible. I'm sure her professor wasn't going to give her passing marks on YOUR views of evolution.
On a side note, believe it or not you CAN teach both simultaneously IF you are willing to separate them and present them both without bias. As a matter of fact I personally know a professor of theology who is an atheist. I don't see the same lack of bias in Christians that are teaching "creationism" exclusively to their children. I know it's a slight apples vs. oranges argument but I believe the same educational irresponsibility is there.
Sure you can teach them side by side, just not in science class. Teach creationism in Theology is you must, but there is nothing scientific about ID. We keep hearing from believers that Atheists keep getting in there face, but we don't show up at church and tell the paster to teach evolution.
Melissa and recommend; I'm going to stick to Vector 7's request to adhere to the subject.
Nothing personal Vec, but in my sixty years on this earth I have noticed things that I might attribute to a higher spiritual power, but nothing that might define that higher spirit as the creator of the universe.
Gee, I guess my statement isn't over the top enough to warrant a response.
How about: People that believe they know the truth about existence are deluded ego-maniacs. Doesn't matter if it is thoth yaweh odin or a tree.
Hi, it's me again.
Your first mistake is to assume that the universe has a beginning.
The only thing known to man that doesn't have a beginning is energy, which is proof of eternity.
There is not a single collective effort by man that even hints at what you are implying.
Please don't jump off into what-if never never land..
It's a rather deep and endless, not to mention useless, pit.
You say god created the universe, then you say that energy has no beginning.
Which one is it?
The big bang theory of the beginning of the universe is a mathematical construct, not a proven fact. That is why it is called a theory. By reversing the (theoretical) expansion of the universe scientists think they have determined when the universe should have began, but there is no proof other than some background radiation that could be explained in other ways.
There are many theories (steady state, constant creation to name just two of the scientific ones) that don't rely on a beginning point. Read some science and you'll see that.
Just because you aren't aware of (or disagree with) something doesn't diminish its reality.
BTW, I'm in my seventh decade of life and I have watched (and read) these theories evolve in my lifetime, and I am very aware of how science builds sandcastles out a single grains of sand. You should have a little less faith in people whose incomes depend on the popularity of their pet 'theories'.
An admirable OP. And an admirable profile. I'm being sincere here; not sarcasm or humor. I'm not atheist or theist, but I'll check back from time to time to see how things are going.
Here's a kicker.
Why are atoms structured?
Why do atoms follow particular rules and contain specific parameters?
Where is the information stored for the atom to know what procedure to follow when reacting with other elements?
Why are reactions between elements consistent and how is one element aware of what another element is composed of and how to react?
petitio principii, Argument from Personal Incredulity, Confusing currently unexplained with unexplainable,Inconsistency too many logical fallacies.
I refuse to discuss anything with you.
You already know we are on two seperate ends of the stick and have nothing in common. Actually, most people will disagree with you about nearly everything you post.
I was hoping, with the examples I provided, to prevent exactly what you're doing.
But alas it looks hopeless as you are parroting and I don't believe atheists have an answer for why things are so well structered anyhow.
So, farewell.. Unless a reasonable post be submitted, I believe the conclusion lays within my satisfaction.
So as usual yo have nothing but trash, though you claim logic(yet cannot even identify the logical fallacies)?
And I'm practicing neither religion nor deception for people to agree with me!
By the way, is the earth still flat?
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublons … ociety.htm
'strewth V7 I cannot even understand the question, let alone answer it!
This topic I shall watch with interest!
your post isn't reasonable though. you are using faith and belief to describe why atoms work. if that is reasonable, i'm the pope. if god is so powerful, why did he create a being that he new would kill, destroy etc. why does he let babies be born with horrifying diseases and disfigurements. why did a god create a palnet that has earthquakes, volcanoes etc that kill living creatures?
You are jumping onto myriads of subjects in a single post.
I cannot explain everything at once, and that is not the point here.
Accusing God isn't looking at evidence for an intelligent designer, which is what I aim to first establish.
Pick a topic, and I'll consider discussing, but I'm not running in circles.
A new thread my be within good reason as well if you truly want me to address all that, which if you start it and re-post it I'll be glad to join in and discuss things.
The logical answer is: Goddunnit. There, problem solved, using stellar logic.
Furthermore, the next logical answer is that God has a son named Jesus. Then, logically, this is the only god, because...logically, all those other gods are fake, because...logically, the bible says so.
Great thread, by the way.
Did not want to repost your long OP.
Firstly, there is no beginning to the universe itself, it exist timeless.
Beginning belong to us men, who belong to this Life, and which time reigns over, because there is also the awareness of the end which is ultimate and known as death.
I'll ask a question to get a discussion started and hopefully it will grow from there...
What is the meaning or significance of light being "created" on the first day, but the Sun, Moon and Stars (which create or reflect light) not created until the fourth day?
My thoughts, would be taken from the first chapter of St. John, in that "Jesus" is the word (Voice) of God and the "Light of Man". God didn't actually create light the first day...He simply spoke and his words was the light. Which would later descend to take Human form as the persona we know as Jesus. And he waited until day 4 to created the sun, moon and stars, because he had to created/seperate the Sky (heavens) first so there would be a place to put them..
Light is Knowing, understanding, awareness of self, the totality of Life and Living, all goodness, perfection in each and everyway.
Light is never created....It just is...that is why the command is "let there be Light"... The command went out to the darkness, where there is no Light thus non of the characteristics of the said Light.
This became the first day because it is the beginning of time. Time is the mixture of light and darkness.
From this mixture come what we know as life here on the earth. All that occured now is that the Light is divided by the darkness into what we are now made aware by our physical senses.
Awareness of sight...
Awareness of hearing...
Awareness of touch, smell etc.etc.
All these are merely Light (awareness) divided so that it does not appear as it truly is...thus each one of their own self is a Lie and tells a lie, to those who do not yet understand.
But when understanding comes to that one now he cannot help but know the Truth through and by them, because of it.
It is because the understanding which is the Light have shown the entire picture and beginning and ending ceases to be.
For that one has become eternal removed from the influences of time.
I was thinking something interesting...why do all Athiests seem so angry at God? I mean, I don't believe in the boogie monster but I'm not mad at him or people who believe in him lol
This might be helpful:
http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta … nd-an.html
In fairness, plenty of religious people are also angry about some of these things.
I think your perception is skewed. Atheist are not angry at any god or gods, because there has been no evidence presented to validated such an entity or entities exists.
That's because people who believe in the boogie monster are not constantly harassing me about their psychosis. Nor or they trying to influence my life, through politics...by persuading lawmakers to promote the hatred in their dogma.
I haven't seen any believers in the boogie monster trying to get Intelligent Design taught in school, or call for a moment of silence. They don't shoot abortion providers, or protest at funerals.
Furthermore, it is acknowledged by everyone that the believer in the boogie monster is psychotic. But religious believers are viewed as perfectly normal.
It is not God that we hate. It is your insane beliefs that are despised by anyone with an once of courage, and intellectual honesty.
In response to all...yes, I can certainly understand the differentiation between religious zealots and the existence of God. Perhaps it is only the atheists I know who seem to get heatedly angry whenever I reference God. Which to me seems strange and unfair. I am however with you on the religion factor having grown up with a lot of dogma shoved down my throat. I am still accepting of the existence of a God/Creator but not neccessarily a sky daddy.
Perhaps you could define your "God" for us - maybe then you would not get so angry at those of us who reject the idea as utter garbage?
I still don't get why you are so angry at atheists. Is it because we don't believe in majik?
Looky, an admission of bottled anger.
And a simplistic denial rather than addressing reality.
Yes, we know your innevitable response, and your ignoring my requests.
You're predictable Mr European resident extraodinaire.
Can we submit a post without dropping to regurgitated material?
I'll keep my expectations low so as not to be disappointed though.
Like I said.. Predictable.
That was an interesting low blow. I am not angry with Atheists. I wonder why YOU seem angry. I don't care if you believe what I do...I just wonder why you would care so much that people believe in something you see as imaginary. (by people, I mean the generations dating back into ancient civilizations, before the bible and the preachers, who agreed and worshipped a God or Gods). Wheat from Chaff
Found a good quote
Agnosticism is a perfectly respectable and tenable philosophical position; it is not dogmatic and makes no pronouncements about the ultimate truths of the universe. It remains open to evidence and persuasion; lacking faith, it nevertheless does not deride faith. Atheism, on the other hand, is as unyielding and dogmatic about religious belief as true believers are about heathens. It tries to use reason to demolish a structure that is not built upon reason.
SYDNEY J. HARRIS, Pieces of Eight
But, religion tries to be built on reason. They try to introduce ID in science class. That should be fought, or you end up with another generation that don't understand science.
What an interesting question. Atheists are not angry at God. They don't even believe a God exists. I personally get angry when I'm told that if I don't confess my love for Jesus I'll burn in hell for eternity. But I'm not angry with God. I'm angry with the people at my door with a child telling me I'm going to burn in hell.
I don't believe I've ever heard an atheist threaten with everlasting physical pain.
You may not be angry with the boogie monster because you know he doesn't exist, but if you were told if you don't believe you'll burn in hell, you'd be upset by the person telling you that nonsense.
Those folk obviously (by your understanding) have a twisted view of things, and are wrong in their assertions.
When I was an atheist, I simply smiled politely (or growled if I was already in a foul mood), and said thanks, but no thanks.
The assertions have no meaning unless you believe them.
Why, you ask why I would be upset that someone should tell me I'll burn in hell if I don't do as them. You ask why?
No one likes a bully. They don't work on me, but they do work on some. Is it your intention to bully to get someone saved? Did your Christ do that? Is it right? Does it sound right to you? Do Atheist knock on your door and warn you of pain unless you do as they say? No different then the mafia telling you to pay them or they will break your legs.
Why you ask. Really?
"They don't work on me..."
Yes, we see just how they have no effect on you at all.
Yes, I do ask why, because before I came to faith, many professing Christians crossed my path and made those same threats, and they meant NOTHING to me.... How could they, in my then state of unbelief, they were empty threats concerning a religion I had absolutely NO interest in.
At that time I was ONLY concerned with physical and material pleasures, was content to believe that there was no life after death, and that even if there were something else, I would be OK, because I was an accomplished 'chameleon' who could adapt to any circumstance.
Why would empty threats have any bearing on your life?
Bully's like bully's, take a look around the forums and see the bully's that gang up here on folk, and most of them are secularists; who for some unfathomable reason see it as their obligation to disrupt any reasonable dialogue between believers with inane and mostly stupid comments adorned with smiley faces.
I have never bullied anyone into faith, indeed I spend more time trying to challenge any convert than I would to encourage them.
I do that because when someone comes to faith as a result of God sending them to me, I also pick up the obligation to minister to them and guide them into the fullness of Christ (as best I can and they are able to do)and this is a time consuming open ended obligation.
I seek no false converts, or those seeking a 'cheap' insurance policy for eternal life and the escape of their sins, let them be genuine, and they have my complete attention at any time, day or night, that they need help.
Those who I have introduced to Christ are normally able to go the distance and help others.
The REASON is simple, it's the job description:
Ephesians 4 12:15
His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body (the church),
[That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the full and accurate knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him.
So then, we may no longer be children, tossed [like ships] to and fro between chance gusts of teaching and wavering with every changing wind of doctrine, [the prey of] the cunning and cleverness of unscrupulous men, in every shifting form of trickery in inventing errors to mislead.
Rather, let our lives lovingly express truth [in all things, speaking truly, dealing truly, living truly]. Enfolded in love, let us grow up in every way and in all things into Him Who is the Head, [even] Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
In a manner of speaking, yes they do, every time I reply to any believers post, some atheist will 'knock on my door' and deliver abuse, scorn, futile comments and idiotic smileys, which may not cause physical pain, but are intended with the same desire as hitting me would achieve were they in front of me. I don't ask for their abuse, what they say is rarely of any relationship to the topic, they just barge in hoping to start a textual fight.
I guess that is not as extreme as the Mafia threatening to break my legs, these clowns just want to silence any meaningful debate, call me stupid, illogical, brain dead, homophobic, a murderer and child abuser, they want to blame me for ALL the wars that ever happened and tell me that I must be brain dead to believe in 'invisible sky fairy's'.
No, I guess those things are all reasonable things for me to hear from secularists, and I care not for what they say, for exactly the same reasons that I ignored believers before I came to faith.
None of their stupid comments have any relevance to me.
I guess it's one of those, "if the cap fits wear it" type of issues.
If you truly have no belief that you MAY be required to face judgement by Christ, you should just let the threats (made by normally immature or misled believers) wash over you, if you are 100% right, they have no relevance or bearing on your life, or death.
Thanks for that aguasilver, you may not like it, but the very nature of Christianity is to bully. Burn in hell if you don't do as I do. Don't vote for a particular political leader because he is not a christian. If your not with me your against me.
I'll try to explain why I get upset once again. Because it's threatining bodily harm. Now, I'm not afraid of this threat, but I can see beyond myself. Your comments were all about yourself. I'm thinking (as I'm sure the intent of the threats are) against the weak, or the vulnerable. It's those people that you're taking advantage of. Oh yes, you sooner or later ask for money. Christianity is a business. The only folk that are not asking for money are the ones that are giving it or the ones that haven't figured our how to yet. Come to my door with a child (so I won't be rude in front of the child) and tell me I'll burn in hell. You are trying to manipulate me as well as the child.
Why do I get upset? Because I can see beyond myself.
I think the intention of Christianity was to help establish a standard in morality and give an explanation for life and death. (I don't believe you need Christianity or any religion for a moral basis). This is of course under the guise of a way of control over a population.
It has escalated into a number of other things, from bullying (like you said, Rad Man) and murders to people taking the basic principals and just trying to be good and friendly. I only hope they are good for sake of being good and not because it might earn them a free ticket into heaven.
It's unfortunate that the action of some ruin it for all, as not all Christians are evangelical pushy bullies trying to convert others. I know several people of faith in real life who have no intention of ever trying to convince me that being an atheist is the wrong path for me.
The intention of Christianity is to show you that Christ Jesus is Lord.
And it seems no one understands what the topic of this thread is.
Please try to address the OP.
Just out of curiosity...how many people lately have told you you are going to burn in hell? Seems like the cliche' go to line for all Atheists. Not everyone who believes in God believes in fire and brimstone so perhaps you should stop lumping us into one big religious pile!
the irony of your question is that there isn't one atheist on the planet that is angry at god. god would have to exist for that to be even possible. we are angry at religion as we have watched it being forced on us since birth. we have seen religion used to get so many things in life and cause so many horrible things. that is what i am angry about. instead of having faith in each other, religious people turn to some god and act like it is that which has caused all the good and satan or whatever that has caused the bad. sorry but we caused both and only we can change that.
I was hoping to connect the fact that the intellect we aquire from the world in which we live conveys that the intellect must have already been there if the world is indeed where we aquired the information for it.
I don't see how the connection is missed. [or without seeming desperate, denied]
They are still studying the things around them to gain further knowledge and claiming that there is nothing intelligent about what they are studying?
Chaos and structure are opposites.
You don't get chaos from structure. [though structure can be broken to reverse it to it's easily obtained opposite, obviously]
And you certainly don't get structure from chaos..
But if you take Chaos and re-organize it, it can become structured. To have something that is "structured" one must begin somewhere...And Chaos is a starting point...
Yes, and the universe is proven by science to be structured, not chaotic.
And your post points out exactly my direction of investigation.
"if you take" and "re-organize it"
Who says things become structured without a given directional objective?
And who says they structure themselves?
Structure is not by accident, and it takes effort and intelligent work.
Otherwise what exactly "re-organizes" the chaotic into a structured and systematic environment? And for what purpose?
Not to mention. I'm not sure I know of much that is chaotic or without structure in some form or another.
I mean, build a list if I'm wrong and I'll reconsider. [And I don't mean things involving humans screw-ups]
I am not sure I completely agree with this point...If one was to toss a bunch of magnets into a container it would at first appear to be chaos...But over time they would assemble together with opposite poles attracting with no interaction required.
The earth's movement, slight vibrations, gravitation pull would eventually put all of these magnets into a "structured" form time dependant. Effort (per se) and Intelligence wouldn't be required.
We are back to chicken and egg DS..
The magnetic force causing the structure, is structured itself..
It always leads backwards.
Do you understand what I'm trying to aim at or? I'm not sure I'm explaining this so well.
Every attempt I see explaining how structure comes about includes input from outside the analogy.. i.e. - the magnetism was there before the magnets.
There is always a 'place' where the structure is 'transfered'...
I can see things within my mind much easier than explain them with literacy.
I guess I'll see if that means anything to you, and you tell me how I did.. lol
I think we will always be at the "chicken and the egg". I doubt we will ever fully understand until we die. (if believers are correct)
"IF" DS? lol
You know I'm right.
I guess that means I'm horrible at explaining, or the path I'm attempting to follow just got too boring.. idk.. lol
And the chicken came first. The egg wouldn't have an incubator rendering it dead.
Nope, the egg came first, only it wasn't a chicken egg. See, it's not what came first the chicken or the chicken egg.
It's not my personal opinion, it's a lesson in language.
Language = tool for communication..
You were saying?
"Nope, the egg came first, only it wasn't a chicken egg. See, it's not what came first the chicken or the chicken egg."
You stated what it was.. and then what it wasn't..
Sorry, don't see any lesson.
Btw, I do agree that chaos can be a starting point.
I just can't say things were chaotic before the universe.
My living quarters.. indeed can sometimes be chaotic, and can be organized.
So in that regard, I agree completely.
I was just adding to my previous post, randomly. lol
Even the Bible hints at the "universe" being chaos before it became what it now is...Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Without form (Structure) would imply chaos... Don't you think so?
I hesitated to answer and am still somewhat doing so, but I think I'm leaning toward yes..
Though I'm not certain how chaotic..
It seems to me almost like it is describing what all things are essentially made of in the universe [outer space that is] which is gas..
Gas is something.. which it says the earth was something "without form"...
And gas doesn't fit to form unless pressurised and the universe is FULL of gases.
Water is also gas, just in a different state. I'm glad you posted the verse, as looking at it now, some of this just hit me.
I don't know. I got a lot out of the verse being posted there, but I'm not so sure it's implying universal chaos as no laws of physics.. etc....
A state of complete entropy, yes I think so. Chaos is disorder and a cloud being h20 in vapor or gas form is at maximum disorder right?
I wonder if a body of water, such as the ocean is at maximum entropy as well?
I'll go with yes, to a degree I agree. But I believe the basic laws limit the level of chaos possible, kind of like building materials.. I THINK. This is a on-site evaluation DS.. lol
It gets complex at determining chaos when the laws of physics encompass every physical thing we study.....
'Water is also gas, just in a different state.'
How is that ignorant? Technically, that statement is correct. Perhaps vector could have said water can be a gas, but it's obvious what he meant.
Water is just water, though it can be in solid(we call ice), liquid(water) or in gaseous(vapour) State. The only difference is the motion of the molecules.
I thought his post said enough.
Ice, water, vapor.. All h20 - "just in a different state"
Light is understanding, particularly, understanding of self. God went on a quest of self understanding, therefore the light , was God understanding God. The light was not exterior to God, but internal. In this context, creation is more better understood as self awareness or consciousness.
Father who is God has already inderstood ....this is why he is Father.
Now the quest of understanding self is realized in the Sons, us.
Thus we are born in darkness and through and by the darkness, we come to knowledge of self...the person of our Father, which is exactly the same as ourselves, this is why we know ourselves as sons of God.
The combination of Father and Sons are perfectly united as one and referred to as God...singular... For there is no division between Father and his Sons.
I'm speaking in terms of before he was father. When he was all by himself, alone in his womb....room.
Hey Dude ( I like that)
lets expore the concept of Father being in the womb.
I relate to this by me being in the womb in this present moment. So then was Father just Like me?
I can answer yes, because there is no other way to relate it.
But then when you consider that the womb is the making of the Father, and in Him I am...
So then Father could have never been in a womb simply because there was no time Father was not, and if He was in a womb then at that point He was son and not Father.....So therefore He could not know himself as Father but as Son.
This is why I conclude the Only difference between Father and son is the Womb.....the sons have had it but the Father at no point experience the womb except through the Sons.
This is why it is said of Father he is without beginning and without end....in Fact these things were authored by Him for the sake of his Sons.
Let me know your thoughts.
I want to start my response to your prompt by saying I've often seen theists suggest or say that atheists believe in nothing and that they believe it came from nothing. The truth for me, as an atheist, is that I don’t know. I obviously don't believe in a god or gods... I think that the big bang theory is fairly accurate, but how it came to be just like the question of how god came to be (if he existed) cannot really be answered.
My honest thoughts are that while I don’t know how it happened, it happened, and from there, energy expanded throughout the universe. That same energy formed the sun, the planets, the stars and eventually humans and other life. We even have common elements inside us that stars have. I believe that energy keeps going even after death. When we die, we should be buried in the ground and we then become food for the bugs that turn us into fertilizer. This in turn helps plants continue to grow, which provide oxygen and sustenance for other humans and animals, thus keeping the cycle going.
Just think when you eat a hamburger. That used to be a cow, a cow that ate grass, grass that was grown because of fertilizer. That fertilizer could very well have been the decomposition of an animal or the waste of an animal, mixed with dirt. Either way, it keeps the cycle going.
So, our energy continues to cycle long after we are dead. I just happen to also think that a creator or higher power had nothing to do with it. You asked for logical -- and to me what I described is logical. However, I understand that those of faith feel that they are logical in their thinking. I get it, it’s just not logical to me, much like my mode of thinking isn’t logical to them. I have no desire to try and convince anyone I am right – I think what I think because it makes more sense to me than everything else I have heard; and that’s that.
Stating you don't know what happened it an excellent start. I see God as the fabricator, but none of us know exact details, theist nor atheist.
Which is exactly what I like to discuss and trace details to.
And regarding energy, you are right. Look up The Law of Conservation of Energy.
It is what I use to prove eternity exists, quite literally, and proven by science as energy couldn't possibly be eternal if there was no eternity to exist in.
I wrote a very long answer prior to this only for a splendid crash of my application, so I'll re-state my points.
At birth our bodies begin making use of resources to form a structure for a purpose. This purpose is to create and build and construct an entire solid, liquid, and gas machine systematically structured and organized to effeciently carry out more advanced tasks than any machinery we have yet to create with our powerful, yet limited, brains.
This machine has an operator. This operator forms a conscience awareness at a young age, varying depending on particular factors, that this "person" realizes they have the ability to control this machine, make use of it's abilities and functions, and that it is not a machine and thought enabled person alone, but there are millions of these other "individuals" just like they are with the same abilities but slightly different structuring and experiences [data input and interpretation].
The machine we create has an operator seperate from itself, yet we include seats and input devices to incorporate ourselves into and extend abilities through extra created eternal machinery and devices.
We have people desperately trying to get a machine to think like these individuals which we are, which is where they run into a brick wall.
Now, I understand atheists don't believe in God, and that's fine, but I'm no different than you except I feel I have ample evidence to suffice for my own conclusion of Him existing to be me. If I could transfer what I see within my mind to you, you may be surprized at how perspective and certain data you don't have may shed light and change the angle to reveal things once hidden.
This is how my conclusion came to be what it is currently, and not just by baseless faith. I do believe in using one's given abilities and intellect.
If you feel you know enough and don't need other perspectives, that's cool too. But I don't feel anyone satisfied with their current personally obtained information needing no further learning can enlighten another person who can never get enough.
The more you know, the more there is to know.
Now, one, I propose that we are seperate from our bodies as spirit and looking through these physical eyes as an operator. It takes some work to arrive at how this would actually work.
When we are born our bodies are built to begin operating for our personal control. If as a child we aren't fully "aware" then we don't have complete control yet.
As adults, our consciousness is fully complete, and we consider this a person with control [jail time]. We are full time operators and responsible for our choices, but we didn't ask to exist or be given a machine [body].
Everything is so intricately systematic in these machines that medical degrees take the longest for an individual to achieve.
All of these interwoven systems hold purposes, eyes-to see, ears-to hear, skin with nerves-to feel and sense, mouth and tongue-communicate and energy intake, and the organs grow a long long list.
These all have purposes, but we see things we've built designed for purpose with multiple functions incorporated into a machine.
They still have a main purpose, and that is what I believe we have as well.
I'll give you a rest on that subject and thought.
Secondly, why do we die?
Cancer cells often times have a characteristic that makes them, unlike us, immortal and if the they had a host that was immortal and could proportionally support their growth would never die.
Death is decay, and considering we fight every aspect of decay every day and millions of dollars go into the business of it, I don't think for a second that just because we experience daily decay that it's normal. Especially when everything we do is an attempt to prevent it [especially women].
It's exactly opposite of what happens at birth, and the machine starts out with insane growth.. only to what? Change it's objective to grow and learn to dying?
It just seems silly to me to think the momentum suddenly just changes and it's normal simply because we witness the change.
And thridly, I feel the laws of the universe are so well constructed and "followed" that it's impossible to consider it's feat as something that just 'happens' by chance. The images, not just random data, which I can evision within my mind are often breathtaking, and not so because my brain is amazing, but the things it can see and understand through imagery simply astound me.
I've began so many times to write hubs on these and many other subjects dealing with all the factors of reality, but right now I'm typing on a touchscreen and the data is LIMITLESS and it is an endless project once I begin.
Considering the materials we consider lifeless contain motion within them and consist of energy in itself says they contain life to me.
Protons with electrons flying around at hundreds of thousands of miles an hour and interacting with other atoms as if they were getting off a bus and onto another and so accurately they have particular seating orders?
This is considered 'dead'?
Well, I'm going to rest on that thought, as my leg is going to sleep and I've got a task calling my name I've yet to address.
I don't consider anyone, btw, atheist or theist within my mind.. I consider them one of me, and I want to learn what they know, and share what I know. Maybe not new information always, but how we see it.
Much like yourself, I was typing a response and my computer strangely crashed. Starting my response over… I’m going to just reply with my thoughts in the order of your response. It’s quite lengthy, so bare with me. And by the way, I quite enjoyed your insight and everything you had to say. I think in the end, we agree on a lot more than we disagree. By the way, I like your wording of god as a “fabricator.” Moving on though to your response…
I’m glad we find some common ground on energy. You seem to definitely have a penchant for science, which I can appreciate, as some people reject it all together. But that isn’t what this is about… just my comment on it.
What you will find from me is that I won’t tell you that you’re wrong and I’m right, I will simply say “I disagree and here’s what I think.” Much like the way you feel ample evidence supports your beliefs in god, which I understand as I do have friends of various faiths, I feel there’s more of a lack of evidence that supports that. That goes for any god of any faith. That is simply put, my opinion.
The lack of evidence isn’t my only reasoning. My other reasons are what I believe to be factual and just a personal feeling. As for what I understand to be factual, that is the entire story of Jesus and the mythology surrounding him was unoriginal and based on astrology. It was used for a number of religions that predate Christianity, including the ancient Egyptian myth of Horus and Set. As for personal reasons, to me, feeling that there is no god just feels correct. I totally believe and understand that you probably feel the opposite.
I will reveal this about myself though: In August-September of last year, I faced my own mortality twice in two different ways. The first time when I was diagnosed with Stage 3b colon cancer at the age of 30 and not knowing how far it had spread, I could only assume the worst. I didn’t quite know how to feel, except that I knew I might be on the road to death. The second time came 2 days after my first surgery and my colon had perforated. I needed to be rushed back to the hospital as my enzymes were leaking into the rest of my body and slowly poisoning me. The pain was so overwhelming that I welcomed death.
Here’s my point though, at no point did I question god or suddenly feel like he was there or had anything to do with it. I felt just as atheistic as before. We came to some common ground on the idea of energy, eternity and existentialism, and I felt some existential connection with my family since the entire experience drew me closer to my sisters, parents and several of my friends.
As for your suggestion that I don’t need other perspectives – honestly, I welcome other perspectives. Sure, the likeliness of it changing my mind is slim to none, but that doesn’t mean I’m not interested in hearing other people’s philosophies about life and how we got here. I will note that I’m not a fan of bigotry, (and I hope you understand what I mean by that in relation to religion) but honestly, it doesn’t seem like you’re a bigot, it just seems like we have a different view of why and how we exist.
I enjoy being enlightened, and it’s not like I can’t learn anything from it, even if it’s just about that particular person. There might be some ideas in there I may want to adopt or explore or at the very least have questions about that will spark a stimulating conversation.
I agree with your statement, “The more you know, the more there is to know.”
If you want my opinion on the bodies & spirit idea, it’s pretty simple. I actually fancy the idea that a spirit operates the body, but I don’t think it works that way. I think our consciousness is connected to our body, and that’s it. However, I have toiled with the idea that there is something extra that is there in the past, but I just don’t think it make sense to me; on the flip side, since I’ve obviously thought about it, I understand why you believe it. Also, much like the origin of how we got here, neither of us can prove it. I think it’s interesting that there are different ideas about it, and we should keep both around as potentials and not rule them out until we hopefully find out one day.
My firm belief in why we are the way we are though, in response to “our interwoven systems” – eyes, ears, etc., is simply because it’s an evolutionary response to the planet we live on. Meaning, all live things on this planet evolved the way they did because of the environment on earth. It’s why pigment of skin originates from different climate regions on this planet. Again, keep in mind, these are my thoughts. I wouldn’t mind getting deeper on this subject, perhaps at a later time. It’s quite fascinating to me; and, I actually had a discussion about it, unrelated to this, with my friend the other day.
As for death: I don’t know exactly why we die, as in the purpose for it, other than to prevent overpopulation. But, my response as to why we die in your context is that we, like every other living thing on this planet, have a life cycle. Death isn’t the end, but my idea of death isn’t the same as yours. You likely believe in an afterlife (and my sincere apologies if I am assuming on this), and I just believe our energy helps the next cycle of life. I think our consciousness fades out when we expire. But either way, death isn’t the end. From my understanding, we both believe that the physical aspect of our bodies continues the life cycle for other life to thrive – so we do agree on that, right? It’s just what happens to the consciousness/spirit/what have you, that we probably disagree on.
Here’s where I might majorly disagree with you, or at least have quite the opposite opinion. I think that the “chance” of things occurring is simply coincidence. They just happened. It doesn’t have to be for a reason, other than that’s the chemical reaction from that particular event. And a lot of people might say something in disbelief like, “that can’t be just a coincidence,” but I offer the opposite idea – it CAN be just a coincidence. That’s the whole point of coincidence!
An example might be flipping a penny 50 times in a row. Each toss is a 50/50 chance of heads or tails. Let’s say all fifty in a row were heads – that seems fishy, but that’s the point of coincidence, it can just happen. I take that same philosophy to life and all aspects of it – but that’s just me and my personal opinion.
I hope that helps shed some light on the way I see things and my philosophies about life. I certainly enjoyed learning about yours. To be honest, while I didn’t think we would disagree on everything, I was surprised we agreed as much as we did about certain aspects.
Well, first things first.
What particular god are you defending? What are the characteristics of this god?
And why do you think you should believe in it?
Boy oh boy.
Right to throwing punches eh?
No way sir, I'm in this discussion arena with a look into reasons to, and not to, believe in an intelligent designer.
Not handing over my religion for the simpletons to play piñata with.
If you would like to engage in the discussion come up with good reasons you see not to believe in intelligent design and submit them without looking for a handout.
Or you could dispute points already posted?
Seems some are afraid to touch things that seem dangerously designed.
Wouldn't be afraid of seeing some truth now would you?
[just pickin at ya pedrog]
You want a debate Atheism vs Theism and you don't want to define your position?
I believe God, as an intelligent designer, exists.
I hold the complexity of the universe as my evidence, and believe personally it shows His fingerprints.
That what you mean?
So you think some being controls every atom, every electron and proton, everything in the Universe? He has the power to do anything, anything at all?
There is no chance or random in the Universe, right?
Does this being knows everything, like the past the present and future?
Does he interferes with human life?
Precise answers are not their turf, but logical fallacies.
Ok fine, pedrog. I'll answer your questions; however, let's not forget that Vector 7 has been waiting 5 days for anyone to answer a single one of his questions; nor has any of his questions been answered that he asked after the initial questions. Also I have waited 3 days for anyone to address the major theme in my comment: entropy. You have waited 2 hours so far.
If God wanted to control every atom in the universe He could; however, based on Job 38:36 it alludes to a type of programming He subjected the electromagnetic force( emf) to in order for it to construct what is required of it.
Of course there is chance of randomness; THAT IS MY POINT! The randomness inherent in DNA alone is 10^(50,000,000,000) interpreted as permutations. The only way such enormously complex structures as proteins can be built is by God executing it either directly or indirectly. This is just proteins. From there we are built into systems working together. How can the cells of our immune system "remember" hundreds of thousands of molecular geometric structures and know which ones are foreign and which are not? Even if the universe was infinitely old, which it is not, random processes could never get the job done because the unfavorable mutations would destroy to favorable ones at a ratio of 10^(50,000,000,000) to 1.
Not only does God know the future, past and present but the Bible says He inhabits eternity. That means He was with me when I was typing this response at the same time Job was talking to Him 4000 years ago.
Yes God does interfer with human life, and much more than most people realize.
I know these statements seem absurd to you, but I'll tell what is absurd to me: how people can ignore entropy and claim random processes built God's creation.
Every prediction I made in my first comment has occured, and yet--as I predicted--not a single answer to V7's questions or mine that has not been easily vanquished. I appreciate you and others who have attempted to give argumentation against God as Creator, but neither science nor mathematics can be accessed to acheive that objective. I have presented both scientific and mathematical argumentation and no one will be able to use the same thing to disprove God as Creator. It would be like using science and math to prove why things fall to the ground, and then try to use science and math to prove that the science and math are wrong. For example, I can use mathematical argumentation to prove that DNA has 1 chance in 10^(50,000,000,000) of forming by random processes. How are you going to use the same mathematics to prove me wrong?
I may contribute a small portion to the evidences and silencing of a few, but your work and understanding [in mathmatics for certainty] by far exceeds mine in every capacity.
When I read that post, some on the universal truths that shape reality popped into my head combining with other knowledge I've been trying to place.
The images are AMAZING!
So my hard work and efforts are paying off as gifts from God through brilliant people like you helping me and stating things from a better perspective, and giving so much additional and accurate information.
THANK YOU, for all your help here, and for teaching me indirectly things I needed to finish the puzzles.
And of COURSE they didn't answer your questions..lol
They can't touch your apologetics Caleb.
The very laws of physics.
And the mathmatical proofs of the future events fortold in the Bible, are all proofs untouchable in the debate of God existing. [And there are still others]
I can't wait to see what God gives me next for me to set up in this arena of intellect, and what my genius brothers and sisters contribute to set the record straight and bring the truth out.
Yep Caleb DRC is amazing. I mean, look, he has proven, irrefutably, that God, who has a son named Jesus, created the universe.
I'm sure these Evolutionist must tremble at just the mention of his name. Just plain genius.
Regurgitating sarcasm doesn't added to your argument.
And... "...my genius brothers and sisters..."
Thats ALL of them tunnel vision man..
And, indeed he has. I see you're incapable of disputing any of it.
You have addressed no point.
I just stashed this pic. I know that sooner or later I will find the perfect use for it.
That's because you have not proposed anything to make a point about. Since you have already concluded that "Goddunnit" you cannot possibly glean anything from any point that anyone makes...unless it supports "Goddunnit"
The demons of psychosis are firmly in control, and you sit, helplessly, in the passenger seat...while your psychosis rails against the mechanism of your very survival and advanced mode of living--Science.
I don't want to know were you get the "10^(50,000,000,000) to 1" number (that is just funny) or what the Job 38:36 has to do with anything...
This is what i want: "Not only does God know the future, past and present but the Bible says He inhabits eternity. That means He was with me when I was typing this response at the same time Job was talking to Him 4000 years ago."
"Yes God does interfer with human life, and much more than most people realize."
By this you are saying that we don't have free will (or it, just, doesn't matter), plus, how do you deal with the "evil problem"?
You guys are silly.
'I can use mathematical argumentation to prove that DNA has 1 chance in 10^(50,000,000,000) of forming by random processes. How are you going to use the same mathematics to prove me wrong?
Please, use your mathematical argumentation to prove that, I would like to see how much you actually know, and how much of your mathematical argumentation is just regurgitated crap.
Why don't you follow the example of aguasilver who manages to discuss these issues reasonably and with dignity? Your posts are all mouth and insult and no substance.
I am totally opposite aguasilver, and yet we can discuss our opposite points without fould mouthing. You should try it as you are rapidly becoming the most irritating fool for christ in these threads.
Thank you so much, for setting the example.
If you're so in it for peace why all the hostility?
If everyone here is holding guns at each other, I can understand exactly why they are so pissy.
If you are that hardcore and can't take my light-heartedness or serious discussion without calling me a fool, I suggest you start a thread and ask me to kindly refrain from participating.
I would kindly oblige you.
i love how you use little jabs at people you don't agree with and in the next line talk about being reasonable. that is one of the many things i find humorous about religious people. you like your cake and you want to eat it to. that use of simpletons was one of my favorites. you're one of those people that just talking to would put me at the point where i would have to put you in your place in an atheist way. you're not only rude but so absurdly opinionated that you most likely embarrass most other good religious people. just so you know, intelligence is not only about being smart, it's about knowing how to address and converse with people. you stated on another forum that we have science has proven energy never ends and i will say that how can we prove something never ends when we haven't been around forever to study it.
I just started a thread on that subject.
Thank you for your honest opinion.. lol
I see my 'pin-down' energy point has you quite upset with me.
I only mean my sarcasm and jokes in good fun, whether people choose to take them that way or not.
And the simpleton remark, well if they indeed throw objectiveless insults they are being simpletons by their personal choice of action, not because I'm using the term.
And if you can place me, then go on with your bad self, lol..
It won't be the first time.
I think you may have just concluded on what and who you think I am prematurely....
I'm a really nice guy, and this is my fun place.. Except sometimes when people act ugly. But most of the time, I'm pretty good at duck rolling most people's ill-attitudes off my back, and trying to make friends.
So hate me if you must, but don't keep replying with nothing but ugly, I'm a rather nice guy, and can be persuaded to apologise if one shows me something that genuinely bothers them.
And btw, I don't want to keep the cake.
As much as I disagree with you, I actually enjoy our short but growing conversations on these forums, vector. I can see how things escalate with others, but I always try to be polite when I debate, and I see that you give me that same respect back. I doubt we will ever come to an agreement on this subject, but like I said, I enjoy the debate because you keep it civil with me.
Why thank you recommend1, it's pleasant to meet a civilised opposition!
getit...I pray that God....or whatever you wanna call it....drags you right into the twilight zone. Hope you had a happy easter.
I think I've had my fill of posted photos with the same message as the last photo-post for at least 50 or more submissions throughout the site.
You have thoroughly annoyed me more than what a 3 year old child is able, and have successfully agitated me beyond my limit of being capable of staying...
Just turn and face the music. Until you admit that your beliefs are ridiculous, the message will not go away. It is not my being repetitious, but rather your inability to provide a SANE answer, that doesn't sound like it came from within the walls of a mental asylum.
Yet your world view is well within step with a 3 year old's.
Have a nice day.
This is a classic scummy tactic used by people who are helplessly losing. Don't like the TRUTH, then destroy the character of the messenger. You are the one who has not assuaged the inconsistencies in your foolish and childish assertions, yet you accuse me of being repetitious and irrelevant, when I keep your feet to the fire. If you could just ADMIT that your beliefs are psychotic, then you would not have to run from the truth. It may sound repetitious to you, but others reading this, can see that it is you causing the circular nonsense, by refusing to be honest.
And I will keep your feet to the fire until you admit that your beliefs are childish and silly.
Being a bully for Jesus doesn't make anyone want to convert to your silly, immature, psychotic worldview, it just makes you look evil. Just in case you don't get it: LYING IS EVIL!
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