A Colorado school district is being sued for discrimination. The parents of six year old Coy Matthis, who they say has identified himself as a girl since he was a toddler, are incensed that the school will not allow him to use the girls’ bathroom. An internet search for this story revealed several sites which call him a “transgendered girl” and paint the school district as the bad guy in an ongoing struggle to redefine, if not break down, distinctions between males and females.
In Europe, the idea of someone being born a boy when they are really a girl or vice versa is called sexual dysphoria. Despite this quasi-medical moniker, is there really any medical or scientific evidence to support the idea that someone could be born the wrong sex?
Without scientific evidence, transgender identity is actually a religion. It assumes that sexual identity exists outside the physical body. Truth is the fetus has no sexual identifiers until the fourteenth week of gestation. Is it possible for a fetus with a Y chromosome to fail to produce a phallus, or for a fetus with two X chromosomes to produce testes, thus trapping the person inside the wrong body? Have there been any medical or scientific studies to support the notion that sexual identity has nothing to do with chromosomes?
Without such evidence, public policy based on transgender identity is no different from public policy based on creationism. No, I‘m not suggesting that we go back to a world where strict and unrealistic gender roles are forced on our children , but neither should our daughters be forced to share a bathroom with a boy just because he has decided he wants to be a girl.
There is a law in physics which says that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This law is just as true in the social world. There was a time when girls weren’t allowed to climb trees and boys had to beat each other up to prove their manhood. That was an extreme, and we were happy to move away from it. But when we reached a balance, someone said, “hey, why stop here.” and now we are well on our way to the other extreme. The pendulum of social order will continue to swing back and forth from one extreme to the other until a generation rises that will reach a balance and recognize its value.
"Without scientific evidence, transgender identity is actually a religion. "
I'm sure there have been multiple studies done, you can probably find them online.
New Living Translation (NLV)
"Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother." Mark: 3:35
King James Bible
"Judge not according to outward appearance, but judge righteous judgement." John 7:24
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Luke 6:37
Unless you are prepared to declare that psychology is not a science you will find lots of "scientific" evidence for the phenomena you describe. There is little doubt that there are boys "trapped" in a girls body and vice versa.
However, that does not change the actual sex of the child or give that boy (or girl) the right to impose their sexuality onto others. Until the ADA or other law requires separate bathrooms for these people they need to use the bathrooms suitable for their physical body and not their mental attitude.
I disagree. If the person is living as that gender who cares if the walk in and use a cubicle next to me?
Someone who, for example, presents themself as female (dresses female, looks female) should not be forced to use a male facility (where they may not be entirely safe). What that female has in their pants is none of my business, and sharing a restroom does not make it my business.
Guess what? You are not the only person in the world!
As an adult I don't think it could matter any less to me.
But we're talking about children here. A great many parents do not want their children exposed to the genitalia of the opposite sex. In addition, few children of school age are comfortable with a person of the opposite sex in the same bathroom and their desires are going to override the desires on a single child that has the body of the other sex.
There is no need to be exposed to the genitals of other people in a restroom. So long as the kids aren't sticking their heads under the stall doors, they should be safe. It is no different to being in the same room as a penis covered by clothing.
I think the right of the transgender person is fundamental--the delicate sensibilities of others to the theoretical presence of a penis behind a wall, well, they can adapt.
1) You won't get far explaining that to parents, 2) not all school stalls have doors and 3) I suspect you haven't used many men's bathrooms.
In any case, the "delicate sensibilities" of the transgender are of no more importance than those of anyone else.
Personally, I think we would all be a lot better off keeping our own delicate sensibilities to ourselves rather than expecting and demanding that everyone around us pay homage to them. I'm sick of the PC crap we're expected to obey, the constant demand that everything we do take into account everyone's "feelings" about everything we do.
In this case the child has a penis; he may use the bathroom designed for penis's or do without. Because his feelings are hurt when that physical fact is recognized is no reason to ignore that fact or pretend it isn't so.
Wow! Just wow! Perhaps it's your delicate sensibilities which need to be protected? Why do you think that your feelings should trump those of others? Try teaching a little tolerance to kids, so what, they have a penis? Have you thought about about teaching children about transgender issues? Ya know, to educate them, or would that offend your delicate sensibilities? Why should the rest of society have to cow toe to your feelings?
Read the OP. There is no such thing, there is no evidence of it.
You will find that attitude in a large percentage of the population - do you really think it's something you can put in the curriculum in school? Do you really think that parents are going to tolerate a boy in the girls bathroom? Do you really think that a "well brought up girl" is going to be happy with it? By about the age of 4 or 5 kids are shutting the bathroom door to the opposite sex - do you think people are going to ignore that, OR what the reasons behind it are?
This isn't about my feelings (you will see above that I could not care less which bathroom is used) - it's about life in the US, in 2013. It's about the rest of society kow-towing to the desires of a very few and changing their entire outlook on propriety, sexuality and the raising of children.
So, I guess you have studied this extensively?
I live here. Come on, UW - 80% of the country won't allow gays to marry - a purely personal and private matter. And yet you think they will allow opposite sex children in the same bathroom? The precious children that must not, under any circumstances, be allowed to think different people are OK or to see simple skin?
On the other hand, if you could eliminate body taboos throughout the country there wouldn't be any problem at all. Think that's a reasonable goal, something we might see in the near future?
Yes, instead of boys and girls, the bathrooms of postmodern schools wil have to be marked penises and clitorises.
The horror of that! Completely unacceptable to show such a thing! Perversion!
Seriously though, it might actually help rid society of it's silly prudishness when it comes to the human body. It's long past time that we recognized that current mores there serve no real purpose, but do sometimes hurt just as in this sad case.
Have you never been in an elementary school bathroom? You are speaking of school children as if they were adults who should be expected to behave as adults.
In my experience it is not young kids that throw the moral outrage party. It's their parents. Young kids will have no problem with someone being a girl with a wee wee, or having two mums, etc--unless they are taught to.
I think you are absolutely right. Up to around 4 or 5 years of age - by that time parents are explaining that the door needs closed, that brother can't come watch sis on the toilet or in the tub, etc.
By the time most children are in school it's pretty well ingrained.
As far as I'm concerned there is no threat to children. Kids have been going in bathrooms designated to the opposite sex for generations. In fact, when I was younger my father who raised me would take me into the men's bathroom with him and I never once thought it odd or felt like I was in danger. Even today I see little boys in the girls bathroom with their moms and I don't look twice. Children aren't as obsessed with labels as adults are, therefore they won't even begin to question who's in what bathroom. I do not believe that allowing people to use the bathroom they identify with will affect children in any way.
Let's talk about this, not as opponents in a debate, but as minds seeking knowledge. That is what I am. The whole idea raises the question of what it means to be a boy or girl. I have not always stuck to strict gender roles. As a girl, I liked to climb fences and go off by myself. I was never one to sit around giggling with other girls, but I've always considered myself a girl until I became a woman. I do not understand the concept of boy/girl outside the physical body. Like me, a person might not have the psychology that coincides with social expectations, especially if those expectations are strict, extreme and unrealistic, but how does that make one trapped inside the wrong body? Can't I disdain makeup and still be a woman?
Well, from what I understand it goes a little deeper than being a tomboy or whatever the equivalent is for guys...
I don't like make up either, but I think that it would deeply disturb me to have a penis... you know of my own.
I'm pretty sure I would want it removed rather quickly. Just like I would really be upset if my breasts disappeared and I grew chest hair...
Stuff like that.
If I would wake up tomorrow as a man, I would be the first in line to have a doctor give me back my innie and the girls. From what I've been told that's how it feels to a transsexual every day of their life.
I've never heard it put quite that way, but what interviews and such I have seen and heard say much the same thing, just in different words. It cannot be a very pleasant life, in a society so divided by sex and all the trappings, customs and requirements that go with it.
I think the customs of society and the trappings are a distant second to the feeling of being trapped in a body that isn't what it should be.
A huge part of my identity is my gender. Not what society says about my gender or what the customs of my gender are, just the innate feeling that comes with being a woman. Nothing really about me is feminine per say... except maybe motherhood. In every other way, while I don't consider myself particularly masculine, I have also never been particularly feminine. But I have always been female.
A penis wouldn't upset me because it was a symbol of societies expectations, it would upset me because it would be a foreign invader on my body... something that was on me but not of me. "Expectations" would upset me, but not because I didn't fill some role society thought I should, but because it would be a constant reminder of the horrible mutation of my own body.
Not that a penis is a mutation, but it would most certainly be treated as such if it was on my body.
All very true, although for a child I imagine you aren't giving enough emphasis to societies expectations. Just like that poor child in the OP - they can never match up with what they "should" be, can never fit anywhere, and that is so important for a child.
As we age, we learn that it isn't nearly so important, but it is for a child. Just witness the cliques in any school - everybody wants to fit somewhere.
Here is your evidence...
TRANSSEXUALISM- THE TRUTH BETWEEN MY GOD AND I.
The only thing or part of me that is a superficial body part of a man, is my long clitoris that developed into a penis in my mothers womb. In other words, everyone experiences being a female during the beginning stages of conception. Its clear that when a male to female girl is raised up as such, that girls whole bone struture developes and grows to be a woman etc. A lot of people don't have the decency to educate themselves on anything they hate or can't understand and doesn't applys to them. Perhaps we transsexuals are hated and labeled according to the DSM book for selfish self created business gains and opportunity pleasures in that sense of advantage. What people fail to understand is that,
Everyone has a little bit of mommy and daddy in them, like red and white makes pink, a new color. Only thing is, the genes of one out weights the other. You see, angels may transform, but I am who I am. I, myself am a transexual-intersexual-natal/cis gender woman, so if God don't make mistakes, and suppose he created me with a penis and a vagina, and I decide to lay or have sexual intercourse in marriage with a man who has a penis like I do, or if I decide to lay or have sexual intercourse with a woman who has a vagina like I do , I don't see how I would be gay, wrong, or sinning. Or is it wrong also for a woman born with a vagina whose genetic chromosomes are XXY intersexual, to dress like a man or to dress like a woman and be attracted to woman? Gee's, what would churches think of such a lady? opps!, I mean man, I mean woman, I mean both! How about women with huge penis size and penis looking clitorises? Men who are orally attracted to them must really be gay huh? Wrong! The debate goes on as to whether or not the mind of a transsexuals is female, making them intersexuals, which obviously they are. There are many different types of intersexuals, some of which are transsexuals- I am a woman, just a different type of classy woman. Homosexuality labels was man-made or society created nonsense. To bad society and churches got caught up in stupidty and perhaps believe everything almost everything they read, rather than studying the Bible and testing the spirits- you know you love me, sadly said. God does not condem transsexualism-intersexualism, he condems homosexuality/anal sex, and crossdressers. But if you read between the legs of a true intersex being, you'll know that the Bible and prophets and the corrupt side of society are inconsistant with themselves. God don't make mistakes, yet, God will correct the blinded, crippled, dwarf(s), conjoint, born in the wrong body, the ignorant like you, etc. in the beginning. Heterosexual men and women swearing by their graves and gay or bi and lesbians believe that transsexuals are a worst form of being gay. Well then, why does the difference between sexual orientation and gender orientation exist? Its obvious even the educated are totally confuse and greatly mistaken. And did you ever thought that the reason why many transsexuals are bisexual is part or the whole reason that one day perhaps they will run into someone who will bare a child for them before they get a sex change. Well it's truth. To conclude, transsexuals are women. Their spirit rules over their bodies, mind, and soul, so don't try turning them into someone they are not, because it won't work. It'll only work if society rejects them until they eventually commit suicide, or churches who put fear into them because they are repulsive and afriad to be corrected with the truth of literature like mines, so they try taking advantage of transsexuals who don't understand to defend and guard themselves, and allow people to call them men, gay, etc. Or, they might repent if they are promised a wife for their obedience, if that even exists, or perhaps evening repenting, because they were never a woman to begin with. So the inconsistansies, which really are lies due to someone lying, for example, the inconsistancies of the Bible or prophets being inconsistent with themselves or each other, mislead them, the weak transsexual to astray. Transsexuals who are mislead astray by many verses in the Bible and are weak and believe that so called power of the Bible/prophets/God, will suffer how people rule, convince, or tell them they should live their lives. And by the way, I am a Christian believer. I believe everyone should reconsider who we really are inside. After all, heaven is a matter within us.
Firstly I never want to personally attack anyone for their opinion. But I have few points.
You don't exactly back up your claims for this. Did you actually do research to see that there wasn't any research?
Next, I get your background, I grew up in a similar fashion to yourself believe it or not. But I just ask you to hear me out.
Could you consider for a second that transgender individuals feelings of internal being out of place actually is physical? Feelings are the byproducts of chemical reactions and hormonal balances and imbalances within our bodies.
Just because you believe something to be true, doesn't always make it true and I say this with deep sincerity. In contrast to your assumption to transgender feelings being an illusion of spiritual origin, these feelings that people like myself feel are very real and I wouldn't wish them on you as they aren't feelings to indulge in but rather feelings that drive for self improvement and the pursuit of happiness. I'm a transgender individual myself and I openly invite you to retain your beliefs but at once open your mind to ideas that you don't necessarily have to accept, but rather acknowledge.
I seriously also ask that you don't spout bible verses or use that logic with me, just hear me out human being to human being, there isn't a need for divine intervention when we are just two people, let's just be modest.
What evidence does there need to be?
People in the body of one gender sincerely believe they are spiritually/psychologically of the other gender. That is beyond dispute.
You either choose to respect their inner identity, or you don't.
People who call themselves Christians sincerely believe that the biblical account of creation is true. Does respecting their beliefs mean we should teach creationism in public schools? They think so. Ask them and they will tell you that there is scientific evidence that the Bible is true. Press them to present this evidence and they will say no evidence is necessary—faith (belief) is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
When we allow beliefs to influence public policy, we open all kinds of pandoras boxes.
That is a false equivalence. Respecting their identity would be to teach the science and respect their right not to believe it is true (and phrase test questions accordingly). It is a matter of allowing each person to act according to their identity without disadvantage or rebuke.
The main thing about this was her parents talked to the school before hand, they were told she could use the girls bathroom, then they changed their minds... probably after 1 parent complained...
Transgender is more than getting feelings hurt...
You really think a preschool trans-boy would be using the urinal?
Well, after reading this "debate", I am certainly glad it is in the hands of the courts and not this forum.
Actually I have seen "scientific" studies about this issue. It is part of what I used to do when I was a journalist.
But as someone said, it is 2013, and the Supreme Court is being challenged on the constitutionality of gay marriage....so this may well end up there as well. This isn't the Dark Ages.
Personally, I support the legal action and hope for positive outcome.
Since the parents of the child had discussed this previously with the school (and it was a-okay) my guess is another parent did complain. A little girl probably went to the restroom and saw a peepee and instantly thought it was a foreign invasion. This probably terrified her simply because the innocent bystander isn't culturallyused to it. When kids are young, some parents reinforce the idea that private parts should be kept private. But, culturallly saying, the United States is way behind on society changes. Granted, it may be weird to us when a male walks into the females bathroom or vice versa but that is because we were taught that those are the norms of our society. Perhaps some parents are simply passing on what they grew up with? I know I feel awkward when I walk into a men's restroom (long story short, I had to use one in a Starbucks not so long ago because there were "sexual activities" occurring in the woman's restroom) but as adults I understand that things are changing so it's good to be open minded--no matter how stubborn I can be sometimes.
As for the sexual orientation being a religion bit--I see were you are getting at, considering that it seems that people who believe that they are born the wrong sex actually have what is something like faith in believing they were placed in the wrong body. Maybe that since they believe it soooo much that they actuall convince themselves that they are supposed to be a man or a woman? Well, maybe not convince themselves completely on base of thoughts, but perhaps the person then acts in ways to prove that their thoughts are true?
In what way can psychology prove that gender exists beyond the body? If I woke up one day with a penis, I’d be perturbed beyond the dictionary definition of the word. As MelissaBarrett said above, I would not be upset because I thought there was something wrong with having a penis, but because a penis is alien to my body. But that has little to do with someone who was born with a penis.
Just because a boy wants to be a girl does not prove that he is. One day my little sister came home from school and announced that she wanted to be White. Black children surrounded by White standards of beauty and White skin privilege and consistent negative images of Blacks have often rejected their Blackness and their desire to be White is very strong. But does this social phenomenon make them White people trapped in a Black body? Will Sam Greenely’s next book be “The Transgender Who Sat by the Door?”
Should my family have encouraged my sister to reject being Black and desire to be White? Unlike transgenders, she wouldn't need an operation. There are creams to lighten the skin. There is no difference when a boy child finds himself in a society which encourages him to reject his physical body and desire to be something he is not. Start young and that boy will grow up never knowing where his thoughts and feelings came from.. This is what the Church does.
Because you are not a trained psychologist, or because you reject the findings of those same psychologists as not making sense or not agreeing with your own concepts doesn't make them wrong. Much more likely is that it makes you wrong.
When you have interviewed a few hundred transgendered, looked at their history, watched transgender children for hundreds of hours and then set aside personal, subjective prejudices and beliefs to form a reasoned and objective conclusion based on actual data you might make the claim that there is no such thing. Until then, accept that you just don't know and that those that have done that probably do.
Have you done these things? Have you interviewed hundreds of transgenders or any of the other activities you mentioned? How can I disagree with evidence you have not yet shown me? If all you have to offer is a fiat insistence that the evidence exists but do not actually show me this evidence then you are doing the same thing Christians do, which is why I equate belief in transgender with a religion.
You have the same capability I do to research the topic. Read the articles, watch the videos and listen to the pros as they explain their conclusions and why they came to them. You will hear different conclusions from different experts (and I mean experts, not just someone pushing a usually religious agenda). Choose between them or put them all together and come to your own conclusion.
Then listen to the Christians explain that God said differently, or at least that's what their interpretation of scripture says.
Then make up your own mind. Just do it after looking at the evidence on both sides of the equation. Only that way can you possibly be informed and find truth rather than mere agenda. True, it takes work and effort, but (to me at least) it's worth that effort to come as close as possible to truth.
What you are saying is very problematic. It's basically just a trust me it's true argument and a condescending until you do this you coukdnt possiblt know argument. Fact is its impossible to prove with any objective test. Moreover if psychologists have found someone with a penis that believes they are a female really is a female. It calls into question the entire psych community. For example what distinguishes this from someone who thinks they are God, a tree or a blade of grass? Apparently if someone believes they are something they truly are by your definition.
Because gender is a lived experience, and people can describe it using words. You are just choosing not to respect them enough to believe them.
One of the framers of the constitution said, "Your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose." By the same token, respecting another person's right to live as they choose ends when that person impinges on my rights. I have a right to not share a bathroom with strange males in public places. In private homes, do as you please. In public no, because women do things outside the cubicles, like changing their shirts or breastfeeding. . In schools, girls do things outside the cubicles. Are schools going to issue id cards to ensure that the boys who go in the girls' bathroom are bonafide transgenders and not just peeping toms?
Actually there are over 50,000 people in the United States that are neither male nor female according to modern medicine. They are called intersexuals. There are many different examples but one example is that a person has a one testicle and one ovary. Another example is instead of XY or XX, they have XXY.
So what branch of medicine is this? Endocrinology. The endocrine glands produce the different hormones and many times the endocrinologist will be called in to decide on what sex. Sometimes they disagree.
In fact, say that someone commits murder but they decide not to lock up the person since they will be locking up an innnocent person. There are many conjoined twins that this would apply to. In fact there is even a 2 headed girl in the U.S. One body but 2 heads.
Part of evolution is trying new things. If everyone refuses to mate with people that do not have 2 heads then eventually most of the people in society will have 2 heads.
Hi, there's some links in this post, but they are not 'promotional' but are links to educational research for the topic of this page.
First I want to apologize for resurrecting an old thread, but in case others stumble upon it while reading transgender articles on the net, like I did, I wanted to add some details. Pages like this one make people question if their is or is not a biological basis, so here is some actual research for you.
Firstly, this is an old article, I think it's from the 90's, but it is one of the reasons that Transgender people are no longer consider mentally ill or anything, but to have a physical condition. If you go to the link below and scroll down to the second photo that is on it.
The photo shows the BSTC inside of four human brains. The two brains on the left are men's brains (a straight man and a gay man). The brain in the top right is a woman's brain. The brain in the bottom right is a transgender's brain within a male body.
As you can clearly see, men - even gay men - have twice the size and density of the BSTC compared with women, or transgender individuals who were born looking male. This is just one example of many studies that found clear and visible physical differences between those who feel male and look male, and those who do not feel male but look male. This part of the brain develops before the baby is born - while still in the womb, their brain is already different to their externally developing body.
http://www.transgendercare.com/medical/ … x_diff.htm
Seecondly, this article is good, it has results of lots of studies in it:
After a member of the Fox News Medical A-Team recently stated there was no sign of a biological basis, this reporter spent a few minutes on google, and was able to come up with 15 studies that showed biological basis. And also they link to numerous others as well.
http://hubpages.com/relationships/forum … r-identity
Again, I apologize for resurrecting an old thread, I know that it often annoys people, but if people stumbled onto this page via Google Search like I did, I thought it would be helpful to have links to some of the research that has been done in this field.
sorry - I put the wrong link for the second link. The other website with 15 scientific studies results mentioned is:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tan … 16722.html
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If you have any evidence please present it.
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