Should Grammar be considered as an important aspect of hubs?

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   ZSY264posted 15 years ago

   Now, I have recently joined this community and I must say some of the articles I've read were wrought with grammatical errors or a strange juxtaposition of word choices. Now, let me make myself clear: I do not think that those hubs that were laden with valuable information were useless or bad pieces of work. I'm just stating that a huge part of English and languages in general comprise of grammar. The grammar usage of recent years--especially on the internet--has been butchered but also met with acceptance for informal situations. Though we still understand the meaning of the sentence, isn't good prose supposed to adhere to Grammatical rules? Or is good Grammar only a means nowadays to condescend others who are more lax and less learned about the Grammatical rules?

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      apekshaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      You must have to write hubs grammatically correct becoz any wrong sentences can make wrong meaning of original.so I think grammar is important.
      If anyone is weak in grammar then he should firstly read related books and then start writing or he can just use Microsoft office 2003 and automatically it would correct your mistakes or suggests.

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      RKHenryposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I think that you have now set yourself up as a the perfect role model.
      _________________________________________________________________
      A lot of us [myself included] have special, coded software embedded in a computer program that takes care of this. As for me, this software is limited to only a few programs.  I have a Super-freak, computer nerd, farm boy that lives with me.  This embedded code does the technicality work for us.    Unfortunately, it doesn't work in co-junction with Hubpages software.
      
      This software is my brain. It has saved me hundreds of dollars in final draft proofreading fees.  Students like myself, usually have to pay people like you money to proofread our work.  Still leaving our work in the care of another human brain, subseptable to errors.
      
      With Ben's code, I do nothing but type and re-read my final drafts.  I've gotten so use to this software thinking for me, that that I've learned is much forgotten.
      
      I think that is the name of the game nowadays.  The same happened with the advancement of the calculator. My sister doesn't have to write out formula's by hand during Math tests or homework.  She just writes the answers.  Answers that were given by her $30.00 calculator bought at a 5&Dime store.

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      darksideposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      If you...
      
      1) want to be taken seriously as a writer;
      2) want the best chance to drive your message home;
      3) be as effective in communication as you can be;
      4) avoid any possible confusion in what you're saying,
      
      ...then yes, grammar is very important.

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2. 76

   Uninvited Writerposted 15 years ago

   Well, I try to write properly and follow grammar rules. If something has too many errors I can't read it and I don't, I don't care how much useful information it might have.

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      apekshaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I think your mother tongue is US english.so u r saying this.What people should do if their mother tongue is not English and trying to improve..should they quit...we should not underestimate them.let them learn.please

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      shreekrishnaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      this is not fair ,
      if person is trying to improve her/his grammer by writing articles,
      than what you would do.
      
      i am also not perfect in grammer.
      but many people appreciate my hub(i have written only one).
      
      if someone has written that,
      your hub is flagged by our system.
      
      a whole paragraph on this,with many gramatical mistakes.
      then also you will not read that para.
      
      if yes ,
      you were hard person.
      wishyou to your success.

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         Uninvited Writerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         If I can't understand what it says I am not going to be reading it. No one said hubs had to be perfect.

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      Janettaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I have to agree with this.
      
      There are so many good points for both sides, many that I've agreed with, but I have to go back to this one from uninvited writer. If a hub is riddled with errors, my brain is too busy trying to navigate through typos to get anything from the hub. Everyone makes mistakes, as I've said before. No matter how much you proofread, there is still a chance you will miss things. Especially when your mind is moving faster than your fingers can type
      Basically, while it is tough to read a hub with an overload of errors, spelling or grammatical, don't be too picky. This isn't school, ya know

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3. 66

   trish1048posted 15 years ago

   This would be a sad place if the only people allowed to participate were perfect in their spelling and grammar usage.  I am a proofreader but that does not stop me from reading less than perfect hubs.  Nor am I saying I am perfect, I'm not, and I too make mistakes.  My feeling is all voices should be heard.  Those who wish to dismiss writers with less than perfect skills can do so.  That being said, it doesn't mean the imperfect writer doesn't have an important message, story or information to share, as you said.
   I agree with you that the usage of the internet has led to some lazy behavior and in my opinion, some severe butchering of the language.  However, when writing hubs I do take as much care as possible, but when it comes to being in a chatroom or talking one on one with someone, I follow along and use acronyms, poor grammar, you name it.  I suppose for me, since I proofread for a living, I feel I can let my guard down in social situations.  There's nobody looking over my shoulder

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4. 0

   ZSY264posted 15 years ago

   I was just wondering how much I should care about my grammar when writing hubs. I mean if I take too much notice of the language, it will slow down my progress. Although part of the appeal to Ethos is good grammar.

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      Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      You have to remember that many writers here are not native speakers of English. And even among native speakers, the variation in geography and demographics is immense. I don't have a lot of patience for careless writing, but there is no absolute authority on grammar and syntax. Even your first post to this thread, which, given the subject matter, I'm sure you didn't toss out casually, contains a couple of instances of what many would call incorrect usage: "comprise of" and the transitive use of "condescend". I mention this not to criticise but to support my assertion that there is no absolute standard.

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      Lissieposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      To be honest your grammar is far from perfect, your use of capitalisation (English spelling) in the above quote is incorrect in fact I suspect that you are not a native speaker as your English is formal and old-fashioned.
      
      I'd suggest your loosen up and go for readability! After all grammar is supposed to be method to facilitate communication not to obfuscate.

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         mandybeauposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         and I learnt that the over abundant use of unusual or "big words" was ignorant. How about that!

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            Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Is that why you divided 'overabundant'?

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   ledefensetechposted 15 years ago

   There's a strange tension in the teaching of English in modern day America.  For the most part we're still beholden to 10th century dictates about proper spelling, grammar and punctuation. 
   
   Gather round kiddies, it's time for a history lesson.  Early English grammar rules attempted to have English written in the same way as Latin.  Latin, after all, was the language of the scholastic class at the time and it was felt that English should have "proper", i.e. scholastic, rules.  This, incidentally, is where we get the 'It is I' and 'It is me' conundrum that seems to bedevil grammar teachers to this day.  Hint:  In Latin the sentence would be translated as 'It is I' whereas in spoken English 'It is me' was more commonly used.
   
   As usually happens in world history, trade and commercial opportunities caused a boom in the demand for grammar books, thus traders, women, non-scholars and even schoolboys were exposed to grammar and it's rules for the first time.  This led to a wide variety of rules and special primers for various classes.  Which made sense in the context of the time, even today many English are class-conscious. 
   
   Indeed the market exploded during the 19th century and specialization came into vogue.  With almost 900 new titles appearing, authors had to do something to differentiate themselves so we now have grammar books with titles like:  A Grammar of the English Language, In a Series of Letters: Intended for the Use of Schools and of Young Persons in General, but more especially for the use of Soldiers, Sailors, Apprentices, and Plough-Boys
   
   The important thing to consider when talking about grammar is, first you must write as you speak.  If you do that, people will be more apt to listen to you.  Nobody wants to read some dry, boring tale.  Second, if you want to be taken seriously, you have to make an attempt to at least sound like you know what you're talking about.  That does mean using correct grammar, checking your spelling and doing all the stupid English chores we all hated in elementary school.
   
   There may be no absolute authority, but there are widely accepted rules for the use of punctuation and rules for the spelling of words.  At a minimum those should be adhered to if you want any sort of credibility, especially in a medium such as this where writing is so important to getting your ideas across to another person.  After all, isn't that the point of a written language, to facilitate the exchange of ideas between people and across generations?

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      Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Grammar aside, you broke three writers' 'rules' in that introduction:
      1. Many of your readers don't come from America.
      2. 10th century? It was much later than that, during the Enlightenment, when the attempt was made to apply the rules of Classical Latin to the English language. (Church Latin was already a lost cause!)
      3. Gather round kiddies - no thanks. Let your expertise shine in your writing but don't patronise your readers.
      
      Most of the rest was OK

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         ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         1. Perhaps not, but that's the language hubpages are written in, so it's a good idea to know the language before you post.  I speak Spanish but don't write so well, so you won't see me try to write an informative piece in Spanish.
         2.  When did I mention 10th Century?  I never once posted 10th century in my response.
         3.  It's a turn of phrase.  Lighten up.

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            Lissieposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            1. American isn't a language - English is the language both US and UK usage in spelling and grammar is acceptable. Your assumption that all readers were American is way of base.
            
            2. "most part we're still beholden to 10th century dictates " 2nd line ... I understand that spelling certainly wasn't codified until some time after Shakespeare and I imagine grammar happened about the same time.

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               RKHenryposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               Um...  American isn't a language?  It's not really all that "English" either.  We speak a form of the English language.  However, it is very different for the English the world speaks.

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                  Lissieposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  
                  No its not very different at all - try understanding a native English speaker in Wales or Scotland or the north of England after a few drinks - I've had to translate between Australians and Scots in the pub (I can understand Scots because I grew up there!) There is no one "American" either Texans speak with a significantly different accents than those from NY.
                  
                  Its just an accent a small variation in usage: its not even a dialect, which I think is what Scots is.

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               ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               1.  No American isn't a language but it is a dialect as opposed to British English or Jamaican English.  Besides written American English and written British English have several differences.  So the analogy is not exact.  I never assumed that all the readers were American what I said was that hubpages is written in American [English] and so in order to facilitate communication, which is the whole point of a spoken and written language.  Why do you assume that I'm a jingoist?
               
               2.  Whoops, my apologies.  It was meant to read 19th century.  Typo there.  In the 10th century people were transitioning from Old to Middle English.  See grammar and punctuation are important as is proofreading.  Otherwise you look like a tool.

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            Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            1. Bollox - Hubpages are written in English, whose subsets include as many varieties of English as we have authors.
            2. Bollox - you mentioned 10th century by mistake but didn't trouble yourself to proof-read - even after being drawn up for it???
            3. Bollox - it's patronising. So is telling me to lighten up.
            
            Quo dicto - 'lighten up' yourself and write a few hubs, before instructing others how to write.

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            mandybeauposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            I think that you are right, so many of us speak many languages, not just English, and so it is possible that we want to inject our Culture into the English language, that most of us speak only because it is the common denominator. (Hey who can't speak English. I speak more than one language including bad language, and really think This is not a Freakin Classroom, with Prefects and Teachers. People don't want perfection as long as it captivates, is interesting who gives a Rats... Bum?

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               Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               That's true, but I think you are setting up a false dichotomy, almost suggesting that there is a choice between 'interesting' and 'well written'. What's wrong with both?
               By the way, I also dislike the Grammar Police, not least because it's very easy to be one. It's a cheap trick. Yet it's one that I occasionally employ myself, but only when someone is setting themselves up as an expert, as in the cited case of ledefensetech. And even then, only after a few beers.

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   Uninvited Writerposted 15 years ago

   I am Canadian, British born.
   
   I guess it depends on how seriously you want to be taken as a writer. There are many native English speakers who have horrible grammar and spelling skills, so not being one is not always the reason. To me, writing is a skill to be mastered. If no one can understand what you are trying to say then you are wasting your time.

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      Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I very much second UW's take.  Also to say, cream floats to the top.
      
      However, language is not a static entity.  New words and constructions are being invented all the time and always have been through the history of all languages.

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   Teresa McGurkposted 15 years ago

   @ original question: yes.

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8. 73

   AEvansposted 15 years ago

   I believe that everyone has a learning curve some are much better with grammar, punctuation etc. I personally do not fault a writer if they have a run on sentence or if there writing is grammatically incorrect. Many return back to their hub and correct flaws in the articles. This is a community where everyone has something to share and they are able to express there thoughts, feelings, dreams , desires, how-to's and advice. If every hub was perfect then there would not be to many wonderful human beings on hubpages.

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9. 57

   lawrettaposted 15 years ago

   As an African, English is my second language and funny enough we also have our Nigerian English. So in essence,correct the writer when you find mistakes in their hubs this way you have contributed positively to someone's life.

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    accofrancoposted 15 years ago

    Even the OP himself made some mistakes in his post, a significant one is the wrong spelling of "wrote" as "wrought". My dear no one is perfect, errors are bound to occur in human endeavours, and if we keep examining the impurities in water, no one would drink it. Welcome to Hubpages?

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       Uninvited Writerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I don't believe he meant to say wrote. "rife" would have been a better term. Wrought means "Made delicately or elaborately"
       
       No one expects anyone to be perfect...but as I said before if no one can understand what you are saying then what is the point? I don't think the OP was talking about the odd run-on sentence or spelling error.

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       R. Blueposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       accofranco...I applaud you for your insight.  If one were to look at the sharp edge of a razor blade under high magnification then they would never shave.  I always go back and proofread for spelling as I'm a stickler for that....but I am prone to coloquialisms.  Further would you have someone telling a story as a hullbilly (narrator) use perfect spelling and grammar??  Perhaps the hillbilly should speak with the Queens english and accent?   Hmmmmm.  My punctuation could also use some tuning....but I write for effect and not for money.  If I ever try to publish a book I'll hire a proofreader.

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          R. Blueposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Obviously I am prone to hit the wrong keys when I type....You knew I meant Hillbilly...right???  Even spelt it rite the secund time.

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11. 0

    Leta Sposted 15 years ago

    My idea of what 'wrought' means is "beaten or made with a hammer--created."  As in craftsmanship with a work of art.
    
    So, I think it fits well.    Speaking as a poet, God forbid we take away the nuances, individuality and beauty of language.

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    lafentyposted 15 years ago

    Grammar aside, at the very least, use the spell checker.  I don't think that's asking too much whether English is your first language or not.

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    waynetposted 15 years ago

    Grammer iz importent, becuase if wee wright like thiz,than wee are also bad spellers!!

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14. 58

    lindagoffiganposted 15 years ago

    Grammatical errors are important for the readability of your hubpage article. I think that unless you are using business language such as logos, words should be spelled correctly and grammatical errors should be at a minimum.  eHow.com has a spell check widget that keeps the grammatical error rate down.  Hubpages need to incorporate that feature into hubpages so that readers will not be turned off from the grammatical errors and skip a Google Ad.  The longer the reader stays on the article page, the more of a chance that he will click on a Google Ad that adds to earnings for hubpage staffers and for hubbers.
    
    Also, if you are satisfied with your article, it is well worth the few minutes to proofread and edit the hubpage for grammatical errors.

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    anglnwuposted 15 years ago

    I learn English as a second language and have been told over and over again by British-trained teachers how important grammar is. Personally, I think language is a living subject and some grammar rules can be bent but on the whole any writing should read well, with no glaring grammatical errors.

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       Everyday Miraclesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Grammar is an odd thing, particularly when learning English as a second language. I have studied French and Japanese as well as exploring other Latin and Asian languages and Swahili. Not only is the grammar completely different from our familiar Germanic/English grammar, but different from one another. Experience tells me that if you can learn grammar, the other things will follow closely behind it.
       
       My personal opinion is that grammar is important. I am not perfect, but even when I speak I won't end a sentence in a preposition (which makes me sound like a foreign speaker). I am odd. A freak even. And yet still not perfect.
       
       I am definitely put off by a hub with grammar that is incredibly lacking. There are sources that can help an English-speaker to learn to better understand grammar and as someone suggested, using Microsoft Office Word Processor will grammar check your hub before you plug it into the form (this is what I have begun doing).
       
       I try to be forgiving if the writer is obviously not a native speaker. We have many wonderful writers on this site who are not native English speakers. I would be remiss if I hadn't read hubs by Shailini or countrywomen for example.
       
       At this point I am making a special effort to "perfect" my hubs. I am going back to some of my earlier hubs and "repairing" them and in newer hubs I am striving to be as well-written as possible.
       
       The next step for me is to work on concise. Do we have an eyeroll smiley? LOL

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    LondonGirlposted 15 years ago

    I'm sure none of my hubs is perfect.
    
    Nonetheless, I think it is important to strive for well-written material. I find very badly-written hubs a turn off.
    
    I'm not as anally-retentive about hubs as I am about stuff I write for work, though, and am still less concerned about the forums, as it is more chatty in nature here.

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       mandybeauposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Totally agree, I never string a sentence together on here that is not rive with errors, funny in art, errors are seen as a flaw that makes the work, yet in writing the reverseseems to apply. However I totally disagree that your Hubs are not as close to perfection as poss. Yet the subject matter is always interesting and holds the attention. I would far rather see that than a boring composition, grammatically perfect.

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    Uninvited Writerposted 15 years ago

    I agree, emails and forum posts should be exempt. Except of course in work-related emails

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    ZSY264posted 15 years ago

    Wow, thanks for all the comments. And if anyone is wondering, I am in fact bilingual. Chinese is actually my mother tongue(though I can't speak it well, curse bilingualism!) and I apologise for my grammatical errors if anyone has been repulsed by them.  We were in fact taught nothing of syntax and lexicon; nothing of conjunctions,prepositions,adverbs,pronouns,verbs,nouns,aspect and tense. If you do not believe me, you can go check out this famous singaporean's blog and comments written by the locals. http://xiaxue.blogspot.com/

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       Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       You write very well.  I saw one of your hubs.  No worries!
       
       *edit:  Elegant, I'd say, even.

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19. 0

    ZSY264posted 15 years ago

    Also, regarding my spelling, we follow British English but the teachers who taught me did not bother about it and often lapsed into American spelling. One more clarification: I never said my English is perfect. I am self-taught in grammar and obviously the results are sub-par.
    'comprise of' is listed in Dictionary.com
    'condescend'is an intransitive verb. I've learned something new!

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       Uninvited Writerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Using either English or American spelling is okay, you just have to choose one or the other; not have both in one article.

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    Everyday Miraclesposted 15 years ago

    By the way, I think that "wrought" was supposed to be "*fraught.*" They sound similar and I have been known to make the same mistake

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       Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       That's cool, I guess, EM.  Though I would point out that wrought works fine grammatically in the sentence and is a fresh, descriptive usage.  Something I personally like--almost prefer--to see.
       
       Foreigners often have a better conception of grammar rules than native speakers do, I've found.  Asians in general, also seem likely to come up with some lovely poetic phrasing.
       
       So-called 'mistakes' are often opportunities for greater creativity in writing--I'll forever think so,
       
       Yeah, Blue--I think it's actually, lol, hill billy to be right and proper (man, what a day for grammar), but since I'm the artsy type of English major rather than the grammar nazi type, I'll be aforgiven' you all for yer hullbilly down home kinda typin'. (Oh, the period should come before the ', oops!)

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    prince1244posted 15 years ago

    Personally I would be more concern with mis-spell than the grammar. Writing takes practice the more you write the better you get.

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    earnestshubposted 15 years ago

    I hope grammar and spelling are not too important, I am not a writer, I just have a lot to say!

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       shreekrishnaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       this is true,
       the best person i have seen on hubpages.

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    Lisa HWposted 15 years ago

    Seeing this question about the importance of grammar and spelling kind of makes me laugh (as well as shudder) a little, because I write on another site; and the "Great Debate" about the importance of "technically correct" writing continues to rage there.  (Of course, that site has different aims for the material than HubPages does.)
    
    I, personally, understand that a lot of writers on HubPages come from other other countries; and I have no problem with flawed grammar.  In fact, I don't really expect a professional level of writing from anyone in general.  I'm fine with it all.  I've written my share of "less formal" pieces on here.
    
    Having said that, I lean toward thinking that writers should aim for good grammar, even if "technical perfection" isn't all that important (at least on here).
    
    Having said that, the reason I said I shudder to see this question is that I have learned the hard way that a lot of Internet writers really (and I mean, "really") don't like anyone to talk about thinking good grammar is important.     Based on what I've seen on that other site, the majority of people don't think anyone should consider these things, "important".  (Shhh, don't tell anyone - I kind of think grammar and spelling are important; but for me, each writer on here can choose how important he wants those kinds of things to be in his own writing.     )

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    Leta Sposted 15 years ago

    Lisa-
    Yes, of COURSE grammar is important--the rules and the bones to any language.  And if you want to be taken seriously as a writer, or have a job as a writer, you'd better know what the heck you are doing.
    
    Writing is a craft--as well as a vocation for some.  That being said, there is this 'old school' way of thinking you somewhat get the inkling of here, that "we must be perfect."  And that kind of thinking does much to stultify any ounce of creativity or new ideas from beginning (or even experienced) writers when they approach that proverbial Blank Page (or computer screen, what have you).

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       Sufidreamerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I think that I can see what you are getting at, there. There have been some great writers and poets who delighted in breaking the rules of grammar, but they had to know the rules before they could break them.
       
       A bit like painting - the great surrealists could also paint perfect 'realistic' pictures, but chose to bend the rules.

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          Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Yep, precisely, Sufi...
          
          Also to say in getting talented new writers to meet their full potential. Admittedly, I'd have had a hard time just teaching rules or basics.  It would have driven me crazy.

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             Sufidreamerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             Agree fully - I teach and invigilate ESL occasionally, and try not to be too 'purist'. At the end of the day, I am not going to tell a Greek kid that they are wrong for using a split infinitive. Everybody understands what they mean, and it is one of those conventions that has almost disappeared from the evolving English language.

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             chicago girlposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             so just knowing the rules is ok I am now in my 3rd English class and there are still thing i just don't get.

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    Julahaposted 15 years ago

    It depends on how you approach your hubs.
    
    If hubs are written mainly with Google and Adsense in mind, grammar and spelling matter little. What matters is how many clicks you get on the ads on the sidebars and how many of these are converted into actual purchases.
    
    But if you are writing hubs to attract human readers and give them a few minutes of pleasant reading, then grammar and spelling are indispensable.
    
    I look upon my hubs as highly crafted pieces of writing, and good grammar and spelling are integral to the impact they produce on the readers.

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       Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Good point, Julaha.
       
       Also, articles written just for SEO and clicks are also excruciatingly boring to write, and what experience I have had doing so usually results in little traffic--the writer is not engaged, so the reader is not engaged.

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    Lisa HWposted 15 years ago

    Lita, I agree.  I think one problem that people have, though, is realizing that the person who takes things like grammar rules seriously in his own writing (even if most people don't ever manage to perfectly adhere to all of them) may be pretty relaxed about what other writers who have a more relaxed approach in their own writing.   
    
    I'm "old school" with my own writing (although, again, unlikely to ever produce the absolutely perfect piece of writing).  At the same time, I respect other Hubbers' doing things their more relaxed way as well.  On a site like this one, those are the differences that make each Hub unique.  There are other sites that emphasize "proper writing", and when that's the general policy I do think grammar (and all the rules) then matters.  (It is, though, with a sense of humor that I have come to the realization that a person should be very careful about saying too much about proper grammar on SOME sites.    )

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    Kelsey Tallisposted 15 years ago

    I don't have a problem with someone writing in a casual, narrative, or vernacular style (especially if it suits the tone of the hub). However, I have also noticed some hubs that have excellent content but have a truly astonishing (even ridiculous) amount of blatant spelling and grammar errors. If you know you're a poor speller... uh, couldn't you, well, use spellcheck?
    
    And, uh, proofread? 
    
    I used to be an English Teacher, so I find this very exasperating. If the content is good/useful enough and I can follow the prose, I'll do my best to ignore the errors; but some hubs I have simply just clicked out of just because they were so poorly written. If you can write casually (even sloppily) but still communicate effectively, fine. If you can't, chances are I'm not going to finish reading your hub.
    
    Grammar, obviously, cannot be caught by spellcheck and I try to be patient with hubs where English does not seem to be the author's first language. But honestly, I'm here to learn, to read, and to write. I'm not here as an English teacher to try to help people learn English. I'm sorry if that seems harsh.
    
    I'm part of another forum that has a lot of members from all over the world. And honestly, there are ocassions where I have been shocked that some users were not native English speakers because their grammar and spelling was often better than many others who grew up speaking English. In fact, most of them perfected their English simply by posting regularly in an English-speaking forum.
    
    If English is not your first language and you know you are not as fluent as you could be, just take more time with your writing and pay extra attention to how your writing looks different from other members who do have a better grasp of the English language. Because otherwise, unfortunately, people may just not bother to finish reading your hubs and may ignore your other hubs. If you make an honest effort to improve, you will have more success.
    
    That being said, I'm only fluent in English so you're still more accomplished than I am in that respect .

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    DarleneMarieposted 15 years ago

    I agree with Lissie.  Readability is very important.  With it, the words flow and everything seems to fit together.  It certainly makes it more enjoyable to read. 
    
    I'm working on readability factor.  I would've never began a sentence with a preposition several months ago as I have above. If it works, it's alright to do so I'm told.
    
    Work in progress...Darlene

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    Justin Rhinehartposted 15 years ago

    Agreed.
    As an English major, I try not to be a grammar nazi, but spelling and grammar errors do take away a certain je nais se pas. When something looks less professional, people generally to trust it less.  That should be a good enough reason to use correct English.  If you have something to say, you should make sure that it looks near-perfect so that you don't discredit yourself or turn away readers.

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30. 72

    alekhouseposted 15 years ago

    Yes, grammar should be considered an important aspect of any writing, especially if it's intended to be published. And the controversial word in the original post should have been "fraught"

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       JamaGeneeposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I can't recall any books that were/are best-sellers that are full of bad grammar and misspelled words.  There's a reason publishing houses employ proofreaders and editors.  Bad grammar and misspelled words don't sell!

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          mandybeauposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Books are checked by the Publishers first, for any grammatical errors, but I have still seen the odd one. Even your proof readers are only Human, why do we care so much.

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             JamaGeneeposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             Because down through time, civilizations have been been judged on the literature its inhabitants produce.

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       Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Of course 'the rules' are important in writing and publishing--in general.
       
       We'd also be SOL if we didn't have the Faulkners, the Hemmingways, the T.S. Eliots, the e.e. cummings (just off the top of my head) who all had their own unique diction and way with language, some of which (most all of which) broke with what was taught as 'correct' to achieve greatness.
       
       My point. 
       
       I've seen too many gifted young writers castigated in standardized writing tests for no reason.  At the time, it really sorta p*ssed me off.

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          JamaGeneeposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Yes, but as someone else said here, they had to know what the rules to know how to break them.  And Faulkner and Hemingway  weren't men who followed the rules in their private lives. They were rebels through and through. e.e. cummings, as I understand it, just hated using the Shift key to capitalize.

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             Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             I'm a rebel, too, lol.  And I have to say 'allowing' an ESL (and fairly elegant) writer to use the word 'wrought' in a sentence that makes it indeed fresher than the common place, grant-writing-prose 'fraught' is A-OK in my book.  ....I can still remember to this day this kid's paper that was given a failing grade (that determined if he graduated high school) because those dispensing the rubric did not understand his sentence:  "as we transact against each other..." Improper use of 'transact,' they said.  I wanted to rip someone's head off--but that's OK, .  The lawsuits against the standardized testing industry should put a dent somewhere appropriate.
             
             And ee cummings is doing more with his capitalization and spacing than just not liking to capitalize.  It's about the breath, emphasis, and rhythm of--I'd say--thought.
             
             This of course, is my (educated or uneducated) reading of the situation.  But the OP in my class would get an "A."

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                JamaGeneeposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                I think we've got two different discussions going here. "Wrought" in the OP's first post makes *perfect* sense to me.  No problem with that.
                
                And I agree budding writers should *not* be discouraged. But if they hope to be *successful* writers, grammar and spelling *are* important. 
                
                Grammar is not the same as sentence structure, btw. Some of my favorite authors use sentence structure that would have red pencil all over it if handed in as an assignment in English101. But the teachers wielding that red pencil wouldn't be best-selling authors either.
                
                And whoever failed the student for using transact "improperly" should've had his/her head (and teaching credentials) ripped off!

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31. 62

    Kudlitposted 15 years ago

    mAd GRammer skillz i hAZ!!!1!! LOL

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       Uninvited Writerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I can tell

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       JamaGeneeposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       hahahaha

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32. 57

    mandybeauposted 15 years ago

    Please, please NO, NO, NO.
    I will stop writing if I have to bother with full stops, quote marks, spelling I never get wrong, but as for sentences paragraphs etc.etc. Why do they even exist, except to slow the process, I know they make it easier for the Reader. But as a former top student in the subject of English language and literature. I was an A + I just want to forget it.
    That's why I no longer write for "HOW TO DO", all those revision
    remarks, made me want to totally Scream.
    So don't even go there or you will be sent to Coventry by all Hubbers, I will see to it.
    Oh, there is one that thinks she writes well she may support you. Writing well is about primarily having a Hub that is totally interesting, useful, or that teaches you something,not about having all the B.... commas in the right place.

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33. 84

    accofrancoposted 15 years ago

    mm

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34. 0

    SarahMichelleposted 15 years ago

    I am also an English teacher (I graduated today!!!!) and I can't say I am the biggest fan of grammar.  I do believe it is important though.  I don't think that perfection is required.  Writing is a process.  I guess what bugs me the most is blatant spelling errors - especially when they are in the titles of a hub:)  If you are going to write, a little bit of proofreading is part of the process....imho.

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       Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Congrats, Sarah!  Where are you going to teach?

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          SarahMichelleposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Good question!  I've had one interview and three more coming up in the next week starting today.  Keep ya posted:) 
          
          And thanks Rochelle and Theresa:)

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       Rochelle Frankposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Good work!
       
       I had a very encouraging English teacher in high school many years ago. He once commented on a composition of mine: "Girl, you can write -- now, if you could only spell."
       
       I really treasured that encouragement and the fact that he had his priorities right.
       
       I still have trouble (though I have improved about 80%). When I was writing for a newspaper I had a wonderful copy editor who made me look SO much better, and had a similar philosophy to my teacher.
       
       Almost every writer needs a good editor. Yes it IS important. If you lack certain skills, it is a good thing to try to improve.
       
       I always try to look beyond the mistakes-- but I do appreciated a well-groomed piece of writing, as much as I admire a neatly-dressed person.

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          Teresa McGurkposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          I echo Rochelle: congratulations.
          I'm a slob.  But I know I better damn sure know where the commas go, as I edit stuff other people write. Somebody has to do it. . . .

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             Rochelle Frankposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             Thanks, Teresa-- I try to think about my commas, ( I do use dashes, ". . . " and brackets too often, and I know you read my stuff. Hope it doesn't make you cringe and cause extra arm pains.

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                Teresa McGurkposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                Good Gawd, Rochelle, no way -- I have been known NOT to practice what I preach.

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35. 0

    SarahMichelleposted 15 years ago

    I have been thoroughly entertained by the back-and-forth banter on this forum however:)

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36. 59

    Adrianna's Pagesposted 15 years ago

    Absolutely!

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37. 62

    raiderfanposted 15 years ago

    I jus like to right the right way dats what its about rite?

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38. 89

    Paragliderposted 15 years ago

    Just as an aside, the use of 'wrought' was perfectly grammatical. It was simply a malapropism and quite a fortuitous one to boot. (And 'rife' was the appropriate word, not 'fraught').

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       JamaGeneeposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Thank you, Paraglider.

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       mandybeauposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Paraglider, Your grasp of the English language is perfection, your intelligence shows through, and reflects, in your Hubs. I am always impressed with excellence in all things.
       Congrats.

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39. 61

    Cris Aposted 15 years ago

    As English is not my first tongue, I am extra mindful of how I write my hubs in deference to the language which isn't even mine - the very reason why I appreciate hubbers pointing out errors and such that they see in my hubs.

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       JamaGeneeposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       You write beautiful hubs, Cris! One would never know you're writing in a language not your own.  Much better, in fact, than many hubbers whose *only* language is English.

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40. 0

    Leta Sposted 15 years ago

    Rife, fraught, or wrought would all work equally well!  Good heavens, all!  I for one am glad we all write and think a bit differently.  It makes life interesting.  This is not about grammar--at this level (or should I have better said 'point?' lol ) I feel it is kinda splitting hairs.
    
    Chris A.--I thought you were American, definitely.
    
    And the OP is a better writer than I'd say 3/4 of the native English speakers on Hubpages. He should be commended for reaching the level he has, being a non-native speaker who says he's (I believe) partially self-taught.
    
    Oh well!  Off to do my own writing...

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41. 75

    Shadesbreathposted 15 years ago

    Grammatical "rules" mean nothing when broken by someone who clearly does so on purpose for the purpose of deepening meaning.  Language is first and foremost a construct intended to convey ideas.  Criticism that tries to impose "proper" usage invokes a logical fallacy working on the assumption that just because something was done repeatedly in the past, it is "correct."  The argument that "we've always done it like that" has been used to support some horrific ideas.  Read Shakespeare.  If someone wrote that stuff today, it wouldn't even get published.  No one would get passed the "incorrect" spelling and non-standard stuff.  The genius would be lost in the puckering of grammatical anuses. Good ideas stand on their own merit.  Period.  That said, if you want your genius idea to get read, it doesn't hurt to make an attempt to spare your reader some misery. 

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       Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Shadesbreath!  I think I missed you.

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       Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       In other words, it's all about balance tempered with consideration. There's a surprise!

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42. 60

    chicago girlposted 15 years ago

    I know grammar is a important part of writing, I have just started back to college now that my children are a bit bigger.
    I was never to fond of writing, I have just recently found that writing is a big stress release for me. It would take me a life time to get all the rule of proper English there are some many. I just try to give it my best, that is the story of my life

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43. 63

    Lisa HWposted 15 years ago

    chicago girl, I think most people (even those who are fairly confident in their knowledge of the basic grammar rules) usually don't have an absolutely perfect memory of all the rules.  I think, when it comes to down to it, all most people can do is give it their best.

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       tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       In terms of your first language, grammar is not really a matter of "memory."

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       chicago girlposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I just hope that i become better with time

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44. 0

    \Brenda Scullyposted 15 years ago

    it's always nice to see well written work. Mine is full of mistakes, and sometimes when I look at them a few days later, I cringe.....  I am trying to improve all the time, and find typing regurlarly on here really helps a lot....

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45. 74

    Eaglekiwiposted 15 years ago

    As the English language is made up of various forms of many different languages ( Hebrew,Latin,Greek)and no doubt evolved significantly (thank god) through out the ages , my opinion is ,its better to write to 'be understood' foremost.
    
    "Well thats what I reckon anyways". (lol) or
    I have found this method to be preferable.

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46. 67

    aidenofthetowerposted 15 years ago

    I think that grammar has a lot to do with a great hub. That doesn't mean that it has to be perfect, but the easier it is to read the more likely people will do so. There are a few things to consider first though. While grammar will make a hub do better here and money wise (most outside traffic is more desirable for making money then inside traffic), it isn't everything. A few mistakes are things that most people won't even notice. The second thing is that not all writers have English as their first language. As such their grammar and spelling is likely to be a little off. It isn't fair to not allow these writers a place to write, just because English isn't their best language!
    
    Me...I use too many commas and know it. I have a high school English teacher for a friend and he picks on me about it. But these small grammar mistakes don't make my hubs extremely hard to read or of less value...At least in my opinion (I am also a horrible speller and if it isn't picked up by spell check, or heaven forbid I forget to spell check a section then it may end up in my article).

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