I have my annoyed hat on and felt the need to comment on recent events in the UK, where two boys have recently been convicted of attempted rape of an 8 year old girl.
The boys in question were 10 and 11 at the time and took the girl to a secluded spot, where they exposed themselves and she did the same.
The boys were tried last year and the case was dismissed, as it hinged solely on the testimony of the girl, who had changed her story under .The girl claimed that penetration had occurred, however later said that she had told her mum that so that her mother would not think she was naughty and withhold her sweets. She also claimed that she had played along, and later than no penetration had in fact occurred.
Whilst I do not condone this in anyway, it seems to me that this is a case of you "show me yours and Iâ��ll show you mineâ�� or â��doctors and nurses" which maybe went a little further than it should. When I was younger it would be classed as very naughty behaviour, but would not have had the children in front of a jury and convicted of sexual crimes. There have been calls by some for the boys to be castrated on this website, which is absolutely ludicrous and intensely worrying.
The boys have been convicted under the Sexual Offences Act of 2003, the same act which could see a conviction (probably the boy) if two children of 12 were caught kissing, and them placed on the sexual offenders register for life, along with paedophiles and rapists.
The specifics of the case seem very hazy, however my point is not this particular conviction but what this represents and means for the future.
Does anyone else think that this is nuts? Am I, at 36, now so distanced from childhood in 2010 that I still see this kind of thing too innocently?
Are all male kids of 12 and younger evil sexual perverts? Is this not just a case of Adults placing adult sexual values onto the fairly innocent actions of kids? Would like to know what others think.
For reference on the issue have a look at the following links
http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/articles.aspx … =153504887
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/ … -rape-girl
It does seem to be a bit of an over reaction. This is something that should be handled by the parents of the children involved and not by the courts.
YA GOTTA BE KIDDING!
What % of kids all over the world check each other out prior to pubescence?
Should they all be arrested and charged with sexual crimes?
I agree with you!
"Has the world gone totally mad?"
I THINK SO!
A few things come to mind:
1. Perhaps we're witnessing the birth of two pedophiles OR
2. Maybe they're rapists...but of course...
3. ..although highly unlikely, it may be innocence spurned on by a highly sexualized media.
There's my three pence, adjusted for inflation of course.
Yes, the world has gone insane. And yes, this looks pretty clearly like a case of a kids' game. Now, because of this insanity, those two boys' lives are going to be ruined before they're fairly begun, and the entire country has just demolished any chance those children have of developing sexuality that isn't tied up in guilt and fear.
Hmmm, this kind of reminds me of that episode of South Park where all the parents eventually turn against each other in the face of accusations that they may abduct their children.
The children end up being put outside of town so the parents wouldn't be tempted to abduct them. Taken in by Mongolians the children eventually mount an assault on the wall built to protect the town.
In other, less convoluted terms...sexuality in teens is a fairly controversial topic, sexuality in kids is like it was for the 50s and women: nonexistent. Or so we're thought to assume and treasure.
LOL @ South Park
Sexuality in kids is nonexistent? Tell that to Mr. Freud.
Love your new avatar, by the way, Ixxy. How are you?
Doing good, thank you. And thanks, threw it together yesterday with a new Hub and profile.
Hope you're well on the other end of these interwebs!
As well as I can be, anyway...I crawl along the web, watching to see where all the vibrations lead...Life is good, even when I am not.
Hopefully the court of appeal will get the right verdict, however if these kids are in fact innocent, it will be hard for anyone to believe them regardless of what an appeal court says. It just seems to be utter madness that they were in the courtroom in the first place judging by the facts that have been reported in the press..
No Sh--. Didn't they used to call this "playing doctor" or "playing house" or "mail man" etc.?
This is what happens when lawyers get to run everything.
Yeah, as well as "you show me yours and I'll show you mine." It's a pretty common thing in the development of children; they become interested in the differences between the sexes.
I read somewhere recently that we were all being taught how to be offended by everything...and the really offensive stuff just gets lost in all the "crying wolf."
Welcome to our brave new world.
Whoever wrote that must be a genius and should be being paid accordingly.
You are absolutely correct, Shades. Did I fail to give credit where it was due? I apologize - my memory is a bit like a sieve.
Too many people with their self-righteous feelings trying to lead the world, into the light of god, but via laws.
It is insanity that any child that young would be labeled for the rest of their life, for something that is meaningless.
Ignorance is truly wonderfully blissful. Unbelievable.
Juvenile records are generally sealed here in the US...or where.
This reminds of me my younger brother who at age 11 was suspended from school for sexual harassment. He called a fellow classmate and I quote, "Hot Mamma". He was suspended from school for 3 days and he had another 7 days of after school detention upon return to school. All because the child in question's father felt that the comment was sexual harassment.
Yes, according to the quite insane sexual health act of 2003, it is possible although the judges have said they will use discretion. I must say I am incredibly concerned that the introduction of such legislation opens the door for ludicrous criminal cases to come to court.
Stop the planet; I'd like to get off, please.
It does sound a little over the top, however, having been bought up on a particularly rough estate from which I could not wait to escape from I would say that even when I was younger there were some children of that age that were trying to emulate their older siblings and they were quite frightening!!!! I hate to say it but quite frankly some of these kids are out and out evil, and they do know that what they are doing is wrong, but they enjoy it!
I will now await the shots that will be fired at me!!!
nodding in agreement, I'm willing to share in the shots
I've seen some of the kids to which you're referring, but I think based on the little girl's own admission of lies, this was probably a pretty tame incident. Of course, I wasn't there...but why perpetuate the guilt and legal action. IF it is the case that these kids have some sort of issues and are acting out in a sexual way, then the law is the last thing that needs to be involved - help, counseling, family therapy...etc...all those things need to be attempted first before condemning them at the age of twelve.
I would never take potshots at you, dear.
Well Said TGS.
Haunty / Leanman - I don't doubt that they exist. I probably wouldn't go as far as to say they are evil, but then again I haven't seen the kids you are talking about!
I'm just saying that sexual harassment did exist in the school that I went to and I'm wondering if the people involved could look each other in the eye should they bump into each other in the street today.
A girl and TWO older boys... doesn't sound like innocent fun to me at all. I don't see how this can be likened to two kissing teens.
What makes you think the little girl is all Miss Innocent in this equation? I assure you, eight year old little girls can be just as sexually expressive as boys these days. Have you never heard of Nymphettes?
All we can do is speculate, but the fact is this incident could be (and, IMO is) fairly tame...Or the boys could have issues, the girl could have issues. All three could have issues.
Nymphettes? Heard of Nymphos but not the other...sounds like something from Harry Potter.
Actually, it's from Nabakov's novel Lolita.
She's too young. Nabokov's "nymphettes" were in the 12-14 as I recall. This child was 8, right? So more of a nymphling.
Due to nutritional (and cultural) changes, Nabakov's 12- 14 year old is today's 8 - 10 year old. Check out the changes in adolescence over the past 50 - 100 years.
Alas, my friend, I have no cash...If I did, I wouldn't be stuck where I am.
I think a lot people are in that same boat Spider.
*searches her comment for implications*
Yes, I'm sure they are...Am I not supposed to say that or something?
Did I say anything about your comment. I just said a lot people are in the same boat as you. There was no insinuation.
Well that little slash-faced smiley looks a little judgmental or something Cags, sort of like it's saying, "Hmmmph, don't know why you said that, silly girl - it isn't like you're the only one." At least to me it does. Sorry. *shrugs*
Yeah, I can see how you would think that. So, I guess I'll apologize, if that was how you took it. But, you do try to have a good day.
Well, then I suppose I'll apologize too, since you probably didn't mean it that way, Cags. Maybe I'm just a little touchy about my lack of funds and stuckedness. LOL Sorry!
*offers a handshake* I hope you have a good day as well.
It seems to me it's just the earliest cases of what is to come. Sexuality is starting at a much younger age these days.
It's unfortunate, really. I wasn't like that at all at that age.
Too many irresponsible adults NOT teaching their children properly. The most obvious point of the entire conversation.
Edit: Not to mention, what is pushing the enforcement of adult crimes on children. Where does that come from???? Anyone care to suggest?
Actually sexuality hasn't changed much except the available part.
In the Middle Ages children were married at a young age. Girls were as young as 12 when they married, and boys as young as 17.
In ancient Egypt, We know, for example, that Tutankhamun probably married his sister when he was about nine years old.
Qenherkhepeshef, a scribe from Deir El Medina for example married a 12 year old girl when he was 54.
I don't condone this I'm simply saying that human sexuality isn't neccesarily increasing in its insanity...only becoming more publicized.
One of the links posted came from the Guardian who I normally regard as a sensible reporting type of newspaper, but the 'you show me yours and I'll show you mine' argument came from a defence lawyer, and not the judge or people who had listened to the evidence all the way through.
I read about the story on the Daily Reocrd Online site http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-wo … -22282178/
and it looks to me like they bullied her and did try to rape her, if they didn't actually rape her.
I accept kids games can get out of hand but this did not sound like a game, and also not something kids would want to tell their parents about, but this wee lass did, God Bless her, much to her embarrassment. The Record says she was obviously tired after a while in court (OK she was in an ante-room with video link), and started answering yes to everything. Even the judge commented on that.
Remember Jamie Bulger. Some kids are pure evil, sorry but true.
I read it first in the Guardian, and it annoyed me a little. I then came across the story on MSN which took a similar slant. This report puts it in a rather different light. I would normally trust the Guardian to report the story accurately and to include all of the facts, however in this case it seems to gloss over some of the rather important issues from this case.
If this happened as stated in the Record, then this is naturally different and this needed to be taken to the courts.
No one can forget those two kids Izzy, and Haunty etc - maybe the problem is more widespread in society that I would have believed (or wanted to believe)
As others have said here - Children are being exposed to sexual imagery and violence more and more, becoming desensitised to it and are having more difficult differentiating between right and wrong.
Whilst it is easy to blame the parents (and they are no doubt to blame in many cases) it is very worrying that this may just be the start of a lot worse to come.
This just goes to show you the power of the Press. By putting a different slant on basically the same story, they can make one or other of the parties look innocent or guilty. Unfortunately it is all political
The Record has always been a Labour Rag but I suspect the Guardian is Tory though I'm not sure, and other newspapers or sources slant their stories to suit their political party.
Who would have thought they would slant it in this case though?
Yes, the world has gone mad.
yes, the world is mad - tell me, can anyone say they didn't do something similar at that age? curiosity more than sex feelings, but also just because it was forbidden! We are ALL perverts if that was perversion! Damn!
And if those kids weren't 'perverts' before, this incident will surely make them now....! In fact, what worries me the most is, how these children's whole attitude/view of sexuality will be distorted for the rest of their lives now...
Don't put this little girl down. Read the other news reports of it. These little boys (that were BIG boys to her) forced her into taking her pants down and tried to put the penis's inside her. That is not a game in my book! They deserve to be dragged through the courts for this. She was only 8 years old!!!FFS if she was mine I'd have killed them.
While the girl said the boys put their (I can't believe I'm saying this) willies inside her, she said they'd thrown her scooter in the bushes and wouldn't get it it if she didn't pull her pants down...doesn't sound like rape.
Agreed it was wrong, but you have to be careful with children especially girls...look at the Salem witch trials.
It sounds like rape to me. There is a world of difference between a wee girl taking her pants down (and yes it was under duress - being threatened to get her bike back only if she does so, is 'under duress' to an 8 year old) and someone - OK they were only kids too but they were older than her - placing parts of their body inside hr, or trying to.
Whilst I was in a LOST deprived sleep yesterday and wasn't able to properly engage my brain (Damn you Jack!) I am a little more with it today.
My point was not really this particular case and the verdict that was given but what this signifies and where we are heading. No matter what happened, and which side is at fault, this case is bad news for society.
Are we now living in a world where 10 and 11 year olds try to rape other children, pre-teen girls can shout rape and have pre-pubescent boys in court and tarnished for life, a world where adults cannot stop children from committing serious anti-social behaviour for fear of being stabbed? Right and wrong not effectively taught to children? No repercussions from seriously bad behaviour as parents can be taken to court for disciplining their own children?
Whilst many people are concerned the world will end due to meteor strikes, nuclear war, or major disasters, the problem is far likely to come from within with a total degradation of society and social values.
As for placing blame on boys and girl in this case, in this case 8,10 and 11 year old children, how much blame can children of this age be accountable for?
Isn't it time that society accepted some of the responsibility for creating an environment where this is allowed to happen, and making some changes to how children are taught, and the values which are instilled at an early age?
As for getting a fair trial either way, I don't see how children can be tried in this manner.
NSPCC lawyer Barbara Esam said children often struggled to cope with cross-examination, and in particular, with leading questions, used by barristers to steer those being quizzed.
"Children find these very difficult to deal with, particularly what we call 'tag questions', where you say, 'You went to his house, didn't you?'
"A child finds that difficult to not answer 'yes'."
She said pre-recorded interviews, rather than live cross-examination, should be used where children are required to give evidence in court.
Paul Mendelle of the Criminal Bar Association, agreed: "We have to avoid things like tag questions - 'You weren't in the park that day, were you?' - that combination of positive and negative statements can be confusing for children.
"If an adult is saying to a very young child something didn't happen, the child may be very conflicted by that because it's used to obeying adults."
Felicity Gerry, a barrister and author of the Sexual Offences Handbook, highlighted the differences between this and other cases.
"A lot of children may know that to kill a three-year-old with an iron bar or to drop concrete on a child is wrong, but proper sexual awareness only comes with greater maturity."
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl … 702365.stm
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