I've just received an email from a dancer and one of her friends.
I used her Youtube clip as an illustration in my Flamenco Fusion Hub. OK, I used it to illustrate what NOT to do. She sees it as a criticism of her dancing. It isn't, it's a criticism of the choreography and choice of music.
I've added a highlighted box to emphasise that in the Hub. Do you think I'm being fair or should I take it down?
I'm trying to educate tribal dancers to think before they "fuse" styles they know nothing about, and if I remove her video the article is the poorer for it.
You say you used 'her Youtube clip'. Evidently she posted the clip to Youtube. Now she's upset 'cause someone used it for another purpose? When you post something to Youtube you no longer 'own' it. there's a disclaimer for god's sakes. Her demand is like my writing a hub and demanding no one write any negative comments as it's my hub. If she was worried about criticism she should never have posted the thing in the first place. LEAVE IT. Once she posted it, it became eminent domain. So what if it IS criticism? Let her ego take a shot. Sounds like it needs one.
You could point out to her that it is public domain, but she always has the right to remove the video from Youtube - kinda messes you up if she does.
Excellent point SimeyC. Put the ball in her court. If she doesn't want anyone making use of her video, get rid of it.
ps Then you can get mad at her for causing one of your hubs to have a broken link and demand she put the video back.
She has the ability in youtube to make sure that it remains only on youtube. Then if anyone embeds it, it won't show.
In your place, I would remove the clip as a respect to another human being.
Difficult one, and I can see both sides.
From her point of view no-one likes to be criticized, even if the criticism is indirect i.e. about the choreography.
It could be that she's just seen it and needs a bit of time to understand that it's not about her per se.
Could you email her back and suggest putting additional wording around the video to say something like you've chosen this clip because you believe it is an occasion where an otherwise excellent dancer has been let down by choreography?
If that fails I think I'd ask myself if the roles were reversed i.e. it was a video of you, would you be happy with it?
I think you're stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one.
That is tough. Even though you're not criticizing her, do you think as a dancer she's never been criticized? Don't most performers develop somewhat of a thick skin? Do you think she'd remove the video from YouTube?
If it is Youtube I think it is public property ? If you have made it clear in the hub that you are not criticing her then I would email her that and then leave it, As mccrane points out - she can remove it from Youtube if she feels really strongly about it?
If she is a good friend that you might lose over it then a hub is not worth a friendship.
Marisa, one can understand your distress, but I thought it would be the right thing for you to do to take it down. I do think that youtube clip is hers and if she didn't want it for that use it was within her rights to ask you. I do think she was overly sensitive. Frankly, youtube clips are a good enhancement but your article is good and shouldn't suffer that greatly.
There is a lesson to be learned here. You can put anything on the internet. Once posted, it can never be completely removed. It's there for all to see....good or bad.
just ask yourself how you would feel if the situation was reversed. that seems to be fair.
would you like your dancing criticized in an online article?
Is there not a choice on a youtube video to disable "embed"?
I've just read the Hub, and watched the video, which I very much enjoyed.
I understand exactly what you're saying, Marisa, but should you really do this to a fellow artiste? Although you make it clear that Kaitlyn dances beautifully, and that you don't wish to criticize her technique, nor her ability, the section of the Hub under which Kaitlyn's video appears as an example is titled 'Getting It Wrong'. Would you like that were the situation reversed?
As Reality Bytes says, Kaitlyn does have the option of 'disabling embed', but perhaps the video is also featured elsewhere in a more positive light. 'Disabling Embed' would mean it couldn't be featured anywhere else at all.
She needs to realize when she puts herself out there, there will be both good and bad criticism and if you can't deal with the bad then you shouldn't be putting videos of yourself on YouTube.
She has the option to turn off the embedding feature and needs to weigh the pros and cons of doing so.
I vote to leave the Hub as is and let her decide what to do.
If it is her video, you can't use it without her permission. While it is available to share, that does not immediately make it public domain.
Marissa isn't there another video you could take from youtube, this is a tricky one I wouldn't like to criticised in this way. In a way you have conceded ground to her already by adding a text box to explain yourself once she saw it.
As a dancer, Marisa could make her own video that demonstrates 'Getting it Wrong'. She could then make another demonstrating 'Getting it Right', just in order that viewers appreciate she can do it right.
But exposing oneself like that does take some courage ...
Like many of us she is using anonymous username, so i guess she can't use her own video for some reasons [?].
...and a video camera, which I don't have (yes I know I'm from the dark ages).
Plus, I'm not a trained tribal belly dancer so I would mess up the Tribal side of it. Which is kind of what I'm saying - if I choreographed a "Tribal flamenco fusion", I'd cop considerable flack from Tribal dancers questioning my right to mangle a dance style I'm not trained in!
Thanks for all your comments. I've changed the wording again and removed the "Getting it Wrong" heading which I can see sounded a bit strong. I've emailed her again and will see what she says.
I guess I also have to bear in mind that while professional dancers get used to critics writing about them, for an amateur it's a different thing.
Marisa, that really is uncalled for, and a horrible thing to say, especially in the way you obviously mean it.
camlo, I think maybe you and I heard Marisa's comment in different ways. I didn't hear it as being unkind in any way at all - quite the opposite, in fact. I took it as being a statement of understanding why the dancer might have reacted so strongly to something that she perceived as criticism.
It sounds to me as if Marisa is saying essentially this: A person who is a professional dancer, whose life is dance, and who is paid for dance performances that are regularly reviewed in newspapers, magazines, TV and radio, will develop a tough skin and be accustomed to occasional words of criticism. A person who dances as a sideline or as a hobby will not regularly be reviewed by others and so will not have the same opportunity of developing the kind of thick skin that all performers need, to some degree.
I may be assuming a lot, based on the performers of various kinds that I work with. But I really don't believe Marisa meant that last sentence unkindly.
I'd like to think you're right, Aficionada, but I tend to go by my experience of the person who has said what they've said.
On all accounts, it means that Marisa has judged Kaitlyn's work as amateurish. No artist, whether amateur or professional, enjoys that.
I think it's an audacity, especially since she still has the video on her Hub as an example of 'Not Flamenco Fusion' when the video is titled 'Kaitlyn's Bellydance Flamenco Fusion to "Radius" by Hipbone'.
Thank you for defending me, Aficionada, that's exactly how I meant it. Kaitlyn is beautifully trained and I certainly wouldn't call her dancing "amateurish" in any way.
And Camlo, that's precisely the point. If Kaitlyn hadn't titled it "Flamenco fusion", the video would never have been included.
As though you need 'defending', Marisa Wright!
I know exactly what you meant. Do you know that many professional performers also have difficulty with negative criticism, and often choose not to read their critics for that reason? Do you know that the biggest critics of performers are they themselves?
Performers are often senitive. As a performer, or ex-performer, yourself, that is something you should know. It surprises me that you obviously don't. I've read your profile, and assume all that's written there is true.
Through correspondence with Kaitlyn, I happen to know she emailed you to thank you for watching her video, and to tell you that she is all for constructive criticism, especially because her main goal is to improve her dancing. However, she objects to the way you have USED her video to illustrate your point. She feels you have trashed her performance, and is absolutely floored.
Kaitlyn has emailed you countless times, begging you to take down her video, but you stubbornly refuse. All you've done is create this online thread, which Kaitlyn has observed as a non-Hubber, drawing more attention to your Hub, and her video in relation to it.
Kaitlyn, by the way, does not consider your behaviour professional, and only wishes you'd be respectful enough to take her video down.
I agree with these two posts, and I also have two suggestions which may (or may not) help.
One is to change the title of the section or capsule that says "Getting It Wrong" and soften the wording somewhat. For example: "Not Quite Right" or "Not As Good As This Dancer Deserves" or "Here's What I Mean" (depending on wording in the previous section). That sort of thing.
Another possible help would be to find (if such a thing exists) another video of the same dancer doing it "right" and include it just below the video in question; and then praise that good example highly for how much better it is to have a good dancer using choreography that works and that is worthy of her skills.
I think you are spot on Marisa, and sometimes criticism isn’t a bad thing.
I have been reading this thread with interest. I have not read the hub, nor have I watched the video or done any research on the parties involved.
In general, I think that anyone who releases a video on YouTube and allows embedding should realize the potential for people using the material for all kinds of purposes.
In case of libel, slander, defamation and violation of "moral rights," it becomes a legal issue and there are ways to deal with that. In that case, the website host may be compelled to take the offending material down.
In case of allegedly unfair, negative or simply unwanted use of the material, I think that the copyright owner should be cautious about telling people to discontinue use of the material that has already been released with the implied permission given by YouTube. What if someone had unfairly made the artist's performance sound much more impressive than it really was - would she have tried to have such a video removed as well? What of friends, family, and business associates who may display the video as a favor and give it glowing "reviews" without a serious understanding of its real quality?
If a person successfully gets all negative publicity removed, while allowing unfairly glamorous reviews to remain, she can gain a reputation beyond her real ability. As such, criticism - even of the negative kind - has an important role to play for keeping a level playing field.
Ultimately, I wouldn't pay too much attention to what a hubber says about a video. I believe that the readers will be able to judge for themselves. If they find the review unfair, it will harm the reviewer - not the artist being reviewed.
I really hate the way this issue has blown up!
Yesterday I went and read the Hub, after some of the changes had been made. It seems to me that the actual problem is not the dancing itself, as much as it is a question of what name to give a particular dance - more of a language question.
Doesn't this happen in every sort of performance art - or any art - for that matter? As styles emerge and evolve, there may be some changes in what certain terms mean. At some point, those within the field may step back and say, We need to be more precise about how we use these labels. It seems to me that that is what is going on. The way I read the Hub (after the changes) gave me that impression.
camlo, I think I recall that you are (or were) a caterer. Wouldn't you speak up if someone labeled a dish as crepes, if it were in fact Western pancakes? For a lot of people, the difference is not a big deal, but within the profession it is.
I'm so very sorry that you and Marisa have had some sort of past disagreements, because pretty much all of my interactions with each one of you have been rather terrific and uplifting. I really hope this can be worked out - for Kaitlyn's sake too.
[WE - Your comment arrived while I was writing this. Thanks for that insight.]
I've read this thread with interest too but didn't comment as I had nothing useful to add...until now.
If your article is to be fully useful then you have to show all sides. Feelings or hurt feelings can't come in to it. This dancer has got a video on Youtube showing the world how to do something, which in your expert view is wrong.
You have shown that. End of story. If she removes embedding from Youtube that is her prerogative.
By all means soften the blow to help cure her hurt feelings. If you can re-word things in the hub to do so, go ahead. If not, well she will just have to accept criticism.
I, too, did not have anything different to add but have been following the thread...
Marisa, I completely agree with what Izzy has said here. I think what you did should be sufficient.
On another note, who the heck does camlo think he is - did he seek her out and contact her on his own just to confirm what you wrote? Now that's just going too far!
Izzy, you've stated my own feelings in a nutshell.
Yes I did correspond with Kaitlyn, because I wanted to see if there was a way I could keep the video, since it's so intrinsic to the point I'm making. Camlo can be as offended as he likes about my actions, but personally I'm offended by the way Kaitlyn has clearly not re-read the Hub and has clearly not even read my emails to her, since she's got it into her head that I'm somehow criticizing her technique and calling her a bad dancer, which couldn't be further from the truth.
It's funny, I dont recall ever arguing with Camlo but he takes every opportunity to be nasty. I can only assume he was not always Camlo.
All in all, Marisa, you don't want to take the video down because 'the article [would be] the poorer for it'. I agree, it is always good to demonstrate a point with some kind of illustration, but at the cost of another's feelings?
Kaitlyn does know about the changes you've made to your Hub, but still finds it upsetting that her video appears on your article, and has told you so.
Because of Kaitlyn's few references to Flamenco in her dance, those you mention in your Hub, she has titled it using the words 'Flamenco Fusion'; not to show others how it is done, but to show her own, original interpretation. Because of you, she might well be forced to change the title, or disable embed. In either case, the video won't be of very much use to you. As things stand, you have every right to use Kaitlyn's video, whether right or wrong according to my opinion.
I have always been Camlo, online and off. I have never felt the need to use a sockpuppet, and never have used one.
I do not feel that I take every opportunity to be nasty, but feel that you do, but what's your take of nasty, and what's mine? Seems our opinions differ on most things.
I won't be posting any further messages to this thread, simply because I've said all I wanted to say. I sincerely hope you and Kaitlyn sort this out in a way that's satisfactory for both parties.
I simply see things like this: Marisa Wright has the right to use Kaitlyn's video, so she exercises that right. It comes to light that exercising that right in the way Marisa Wright does, is hurting Kaitlyn. Kaitlyn tells Marisa Wright so. Because Marisa Wright has the right to use Kaitlyn's video, regardless of how Kaitlyn feels about it or objects to it, she continues to exercise that right, anyway. It's her right.
Is that right?
No, I didn't seek Kaitlyn out and contact her on my own just to confirm what Marisa Wright wrote.
Okay, then you know Kaitlyn personally? How else do you explain your comment above?
The way I see it is Kaitlyn uploaded a video of herself dancing onto the world wide web - she put it out there and needs to either remove it or deal with the consequences of her actions - she should have been aware of the possibilities. If you're going to put something out there for the world to see, you better have thick skin to handle any criticisms you may get.
Marisa did her a favor by making changes to make Kaitlyn feel more comfortable with her use of the video. Marisa did not have to do anything, but she did - because she is not a mean person and she was attempting to be as courteous as she could in light of the situation and her feelings and beliefs surrounding her hub topic.
I would take it down as well. I know I would appreciate it if someone took down a video of mine if I asked them to. It just seems to be te good thing to do.
I bet there are other videos on youtube that you can use.
I read the before and after version, and it does sound better. I thought it was very harsh before. I think it's all a bit sad that in order to teach something, you take someone elses work and say she doesn't know what she's doing. It seems there must be a more professional way? Especially since she has asked you to please remove it from your hub. IDK, I would remove it in a heartbeat if someone didn't want their video on my hub. But I wouldn't use someone's video in that light unless it was a professional dancer expressly demonstrating how not to do something. my 2 cents...
Artists interpret their work in different ways in different cultures.
Hey Camlo, who's your alter ego? Keep him or her out of the forums eh? The rules state we should forum post on one account only. Seems quite a few people seem to conveniently overlook that.
I thought the rule had been further clarified to say that you could only use one persona in the forums.
It took me a few minutes to find the actual section and what is says is
"Multiple Accounts: While we don’t prohibit having more than one HubPages account, we ask that you stick to a single persona in the forums. The deceptive use of multiple accounts, especially in a single thread is prohibited. The use of secondary accounts to circumvent a forum ban is also prohibited. This type of behaviour is also known as ‘sockpuppeting’."
Seems its not so much a rule as a suggestion that you use only one persona in the forums, although obviously creating sockpuppets is banned.
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