Analysis of Site Reforms and Author Treatment

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  1. sunforged profile image73
    sunforgedposted 12 years ago

    *Be Nice*

    Wow, some really big sweeping reforms going on here, Mass Author Exodus, Confusion abounds , but its hard to keep track of all of it.

    The Panda bite has apparently led HP to believe that it is allergic to many of you!

    I would like to hear more about the individual treatment many are receiving behind closed doors. That is, if you are willing to share.

    Been hearing about some pretty egregious errors in user relations and general administration but I bet many users would be quite surprised to know their beloved site is doing this. I also expect that Admin itself doesnt want to really drive so many away and create such a stink.

    If I was to pick any group on earth I wouldnt want to piss of with unfair treatment and yo-yo reforms it would writers, online marketers and seo experts. I know I personally ranked for the top 3 returns for "Hubpages Scam" for quite awhile, but I was decidedly Pro-hubpages then.

    Whats going on! What silly unpublishing and communication have you received, dont let it all sit and fester in private, make sure your fellow users and writers are aware.

    I want a full Hubpages recovery! I want the juice back and the income back. I just dont know how that can be achieved when so many are being driven away. Thousands of hubs left this site with the amazon/ebay change , successful marketers and writers pulled their content - that is SO damaging to all of us. That was not a smart move, how do I know this? I pulled an account republished it as a new site and am already earning on it again! (So Google didnt hate it.. I actually added MORE ads)

    The current climate and proposed changes will equate to Panda 3. massive loss of the aff marketers will mean massive loss of backlinks and referrers.

    You think your traffic is dropping now? Wait until google finds all the links that lead nowhere and the massive unnatural changes in site structure.

    so tell us about your treatment and what is your reaction going to be?

    a) Bend Over
    b) bend over and cry about it
    c) Re-purpose to new sites with better reputation w/ search engines and author relations?
    d) Move content and share your negative experience across the interwebs and social networks?
    e) Take one for the team and jump through each hoop as it comes?
    f) some less cynical response, like sniff flowers and sunbathe

    1. SimeyC profile image89
      SimeyCposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I'm going to be metaphotical (I think!): I'm a Sheffield United fan - they've been at the top or close to the top of the Premiership and now look like they are slipping further down the leagues - however, I was there for the good times and I'm here for the bad times - I support them through thick and thin!

      I've had a bumper 12 months with Hubpages, not because I'm a great writer or because I am an SEO expert, but simply because they provided me with a platform to write and get my work seen! OK so the honeymoon is over, I can no longer get away with writing poor hubpages and expect them to be ranked highly.

      So, what do I do? Scream and complain about the fact that I'm losing a large chunk of traffic or income? or buckle down and write better pages that DESERVE to be ranked highly?

      My point is that regardless of what Hubpages are doing, they gave me the opportunity to be published and earn money and they continue to do so - the rules have changed and it's a lot harder - but without Hubpages I would not have a web THANK YOU hubpages!

      There ya go - an optimistic view....

    2. tritrain profile image68
      tritrainposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I vote you our union spokesperson.

      1. Pearldiver profile image67
        Pearldiverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I think you might find Tom The Cat has a New York Connection - Capeesh? hmm

    3. Susana S profile image92
      Susana Sposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Personally I haven't received any bad treatment behind closed doors, (except one quite rude and sarcastic response a little while ago from what I can only guess was a new moderator) but I have seen some very narky comments from some staff on the forums directed at particular (well liked and well known) users, which I think is uncalled for.

      Yes, most of us are a bit stressed since Panda, including staff, which is understandable, but I'd rather see more regular blog posts and sticky threads to keep us informed. The recent blog post from Simone is good but this is what I would have liked to see before all the changes.

      I've made the changes asked of me, though I don't think they are all worthwhile. I would have prioritised getting rid of spam, spun content and hubs in over-saturated topics, and had a hold on accepting new members while that was done. Then looked to creating a strategic plan for existing users content which was communicated well, before the fact, in order to get user feedback.

      The latest changes to affiliate links have peed me off a bit, not that I had loads of them, but the ones I did have were well placed in appropriate and well written hubs and were earning some money.

      I have removed some hubs which I think will do better on a topic specific site and I am having a last ditch attempt over the next 3-5 months to get one hub back to its pre panda positions through some promotional experiments. If it works then I will work on doing the same for some of my other hubs, if it doesn't then I will move more of my stuff. 

      It makes me sad to see people I trust and respect leave hubpages, and I'm also sad to think that I might be following them soon. That won't be easy for me because Hubpages has been my online home for nearly 2 years and I don't like change too much, but needs must. My content needs to earn money.

  2. sunforged profile image73
    sunforgedposted 12 years ago

    I realize very little analysis was written yet .. I will add more after hearing thoughts.

    Certainly the forum posts by the staff are getting increasingly hostile , might be a hot day and it is certainly a tough time.

    Try to nicely point out how disappointed you are or share some obvious issues with the seo and PR moves. I have to wait a bit and let my cynicism settle down.

  3. Arthur Fontes profile image77
    Arthur Fontesposted 12 years ago

    I had a couple of hubs unpublished because of some amazon capsules under the hub.  I removed them and staff republished within hours.

    That is the only recent experiences I have had.

    1. sunforged profile image73
      sunforgedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      That sounds like a job well done on their part! nice to hear some good news.

      It was an ungrounded revision but at least you were impacted in the slightest manner.

  4. rebekahELLE profile image87
    rebekahELLEposted 12 years ago

    I've experienced no ill treatment at all. Nor am I pumping out hubs which I know violate TOS. Although I feel bad for those who have lost significant income, I don't understand why hubbers feel they can tell a company how to run their business.

  5. Mark Ewbie profile image82
    Mark Ewbieposted 12 years ago

    I like the efforts HP are making.

    It seems to me that pretty much everyone who has complained has subsequently been proven to have made some kind of error / mistake / accident that was the cause of their hubs being pulled.

    The Google changes were apparently designed to weed out spun copied garbage.  HP was full of that stuff.  So it is getting weeded.

    For every writer who leaves my guess is that there are others to fill that place. No one is bigger than HP.

    My other guess is that the game has changed.  That maybe HP need to make this place more of a destination, somewhere people choose to come rather than being conned into visiting.

    That's it.  No wish to upset anyone, but I guess I'm entitled to an opinion too.

    1. Eric Graudins profile image61
      Eric Graudinsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      If you look at the new hubs that are being published, you'll see that new weeds are growing much faster than the weeding is taking place.

      And yes, new writers are "filling the place" of those who have left, or who are in the process of leaving.
      And someone looking at mere numbers and sees that 50 have left, and 100 have joined may say "Things are improving"

      But if you look deeper into who is leaving, you may come to a different conclusion.
      cheers, Eric G.

  6. Haunty profile image76
    Hauntyposted 12 years ago

    I wonder if it is the new affiliate links rule that hurts marketers so badly. Aside from that, what are those biiig changes?

    1. tritrain profile image68
      tritrainposted 12 years agoin reply to this


      HubPages is leaving few ways to be compensated here. In other words, the ways to make money are drying up fast.

      Ebay is not available to most of us.
      Amazon Associates is being pulled in many states in the US, with more to come.
      Adsense is very low paying now.
      HubPages Ad program is not much to cheer about...

      That leaves referral and occasional affiliate links.  Now they are going away too.

      What does that leave for the majority of us?

      A handy backlinks to elsewhere.  HubPages is making a serious mistake. 

      It's all about incentives. 

      With little to no pay, who will want to make Hubs? 

      Backlinkers.  Bring on the spam!!!

  7. Cagsil profile image72
    Cagsilposted 12 years ago

    Hey Sunforged, as much as I respect you and due to my forwardness/bluntness, I guess I will refrain from giving any sort of analysis of site reforms and/or author treatment.

    I'm not as knowledgeable as many authors who are leaving and cannot afford to be as blunt/outspoken, as I would like to be.

    I've been banned enough due to the ignorance of many others and am not looking to see myself put into that position yet again.

    I can say one thing though- I do find it appalling to see that people are banned for calling other people "ignorant", which in fact it is an FACTUAL TRUTH. Every human being is ignorant in some aspect and it isn't an insult, but apparently many take it as one.

    Other than that- I'll leave it as is for now.

  8. Greek One profile image62
    Greek Oneposted 12 years ago

    The Hubpages staff, much like everyone else on the web, has ignored my Hubs and let them fester in their own special isolation.

    I am just a few dollars away from my first adsense payout after two @#%@^^ years.   I'm not going anywhere or make any sudden movements until I get my $100...

    After which I plan to launch my own adult website catering to young attractive females who want to pay $500 a month to see my naked self eat ice cream, chips and various other confections.

    1. shogan profile image80
      shoganposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      "The Hubpages staff, much like everyone else on the web, has ignored my Hubs and let them fester in their own special isolation." beat my joke by a minute or two.  I hate coming in second.

      1. Greek One profile image62
        Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        a lonely life as a teenage assures that I always come first nowadays

        1. shogan profile image80
          shoganposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I called that one.  I had money down that you'd make such a joke.

          I guess I'm your Ed McMahon.

          1. Greek One profile image62
            Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            can I be George Burns and you be Gracie?

            1. shogan profile image80
              shoganposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Why do I have to be the woman every time?  Oh, ok....

    2. thisisoli profile image72
      thisisoliposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Watch what heppens when you get to $99.99 :p

  9. Haunty profile image76
    Hauntyposted 12 years ago

    Thread hijacked. Didn't take long. lol

    1. sunforged profile image73
      sunforgedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      the entire train is derailed, the forum is just a reflection of the site

      Its unusual to see so much cheering as ...

      1. shogan profile image80
        shoganposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I meant no harm.  smile

        My original point was that my hubs have been as ignored by moderation as they have been ignored by Google.

        1. Greek One profile image62
          Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          apology accepted, Shogan

          1. shogan profile image80
            shoganposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            You're probably used to people feeling sorry for you, huh?  This is a switch.

  10. thisisoli profile image72
    thisisoliposted 12 years ago

    I will re-itterate my response to robins post.

    I think the problem is that many of the changes you are implementing are making the situation work from an organic traffic perspective.

    Yes some sweeping changes needed to be made, but a lot of hubbers are having work unpublished for reasons unrelated to SEO or the rankings of Hubpages.

    Since many people are currently losing traffic, chosing to unpublish or post warnings on hubs that have pixilated images, or watermarked images, or other inane details will have very little impact on site recovery.

    Unfortuantely every time a hub is unpublished the entire site loses a little bit of value which will not be instantly recovered, and generally you annoy at least one writer in the process.

    Firefighting the traffic drops with article deletion is a mistake which will continue to cost Hubpages traffic in a descending spiral. By all means employ some harsh moderation on duplicate content, obviously spun content and similar articles, but now does not seem an appropriate time to implement other quality measures which have a low bearing on SEO. Case in point - affiliate links, I don't know who told you they harm page quality, but two external affiliate links is going to have a negligible affect on a page ranking.

    I am worried that my earnings are going to continue to decline here, especially if my articles are no longer supported by a large amount of content written by other authors.

  11. sunforged profile image73
    sunforgedposted 12 years ago

    Considering the size of my portfolio, I have not been negatively affected, other than having to waste about 2 days jumping through hoops. The corrections I had to make were based on amazon/ebay changes.

    CHANGES! After the fact, on proven performers with happy searchers who showed their gratitude by making purchases.

    So its not a purely selfish thread. I'll live and Im more than capable of moving my content and rebuilding, It will hurt, but i can do it.

    But, I also recommended this site, its community and its staff to hundreds if not thousands of people, on the net and in person. Im currently regretting that.

    @RE - Im wondering about the all the authors who made hubs perfectly within TOS at the time and are now being nitpicked after the fact. I also think it is acceptable to attempt to influence a business that you have invested time or money into, especially when errors are so egregious. I cant be surprised if the effort is pointless! But, I absolutely have the fire to try.

    @ME - I dont think you will find any disagreement with a raise in standards. Where we will disagree is that HP is making positive changes. Losing thousands of hubs from webmasters, writers and marketers that were successful is a death blow. You think HP is so big - but how many cant break ten views a day or earn ten dollars a month, quite a bit! We were thriving on the backs of many of the exited Hubbers work. My portfolio will suffer from their exit.

    Does this seem like complete garble to you? Maybe, Im completely delusional.

    1. thisisoli profile image72
      thisisoliposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      It's accurate.

      As more high traffic Hubbers leave the rest of us will suffer.

    2. Sue Adams profile image95
      Sue Adamsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      The effect of poor grammar and spelling is that the entire site gets badly affected by mediocrity.

      Is it so difficult to remember?
      effect = a noun
      to affect = a verb

      1. sunforged profile image73
        sunforgedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Thank you - eat me

        I am a terrible typer and will remain so in the forum

        I think you are right. My typo is the downfall of the site.

        I would edit out the "eat me" part but I cant remember where the delete button is was a moment of passion please accept my insincere apologies

      2. Misha profile image63
        Mishaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I think it was totally uncalled for, Juliette...

      3. Angie Jardine profile image69
        Angie Jardineposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Sorry to be off thread here but am wondering why I don't understand Sue Adams comment. In sunforged's defence he said "I have not been negatively affected' which is correct isn't it?

        1. Will Apse profile image86
          Will Apseposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I made the same mistake earlier but let it stand. People are both effected and affected by what is happening here. I reckon the slip was Freudian.

        2. Sue Adams profile image95
          Sue Adamsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          He corrected it from effected. Let's not hear more about this. I'm sorry for being pedantic. Obviously some people on this thread have much more important issues to deal with. Issues I am reading about with great interest and concern although I have personally not (yet) been hit.

      4. seanorjohn profile image71
        seanorjohnposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Effect can also be used as a verb. E.g to effect change.

  12. Dolores Monet profile image96
    Dolores Monetposted 12 years ago

    I have only received notification on some hubs created when I went on an Amazon binge. Those hubs got little traffic and were, when I looked back, a mess. Never made much money on Amazon anyway. traffic is down for sure, but I want to wait to see how this all pans out.

    Google may not have done itself a favor with the recent update. The first several sites that pop up are not what I am looking for. Hopefully, this will correct to the benefit of all of us.

    If HP is weeding out hubs that have inappropriate links, too many ads, or do not comply with what they deem quality, that seems like a good idea to me.

  13. sunforged profile image73
    sunforgedposted 12 years ago

    It all sounds good to me...

    But what about the banning of multiple hubbers accounts that frequented the forums.

    Staff response in current threads to distressed users.

    Blissful ignorance? Just glad its not you, look the other way? To busy scanning by the forum posts by paid posters with no hubs?

    Why did you write in hubs? Community and exposure and rewards?

    Are any of those 3 intact? Did Panda bite all of those?

  14. sunforged profile image73
    sunforgedposted 12 years ago

    The lack of dissenting voices the evidence of the effect the noted changes have had.

    Back to your tea party .. im out smile

    1. Sue Adams profile image95
      Sue Adamsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Good boy, got it right this time  smile  .

      1. sunforged profile image73
        sunforgedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        and the next time perhaps I will not .. or maybe I will use ellipses inappropriately instead of saying Um, um um um um , like I might when talking and composing in my head

        "as long as they call for her immidiate attention" - a typo you may fix in a more high profile place.

        But, whatever ... is that it? Is that the solution? Is there no problem at all, now that my forum post has been corrected.

        How do you feel about the changes? Do you expect the new afflink rules to have any effect on your current portfolio?

        Were you able to earn enough with under 100k views to make a decent return? Is the income from HP negligible to you?

  15. Greek One profile image62
    Greek Oneposted 12 years ago

    Isnt it right to assume that if we are getting nailed by Panda, then Hubpages is really getting screwed?

    After all, the have staff and all

    1. thisisoli profile image72
      thisisoliposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      We could have handled the Google slap.  That in itself would ahve bene a single issue that could have been overcome.

      1. Richieb799 profile image65
        Richieb799posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I agree with what Oli is saying, I didn't think about these other quality writers leaving. I haven't see Ryan Kett publish recently.. I've only had one hub unpublished recently because it was overly promotional and now thats back published.

        I do hope we recover, everything looked promising last year..Google B Slapped my best hubs and now they are down to 1/4 of what they were in November

        1. thisisoli profile image72
          thisisoliposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          You will defintely be seeing a lot less of Ryan on Hubpages.

  16. Daniel Carter profile image64
    Daniel Carterposted 12 years ago

    I commented in a thread about Misha's disappearing hubs, but I think it bears repeating here: … ost1610510

    Note that I have not personally been called out, nor have I experienced a lot of the troubles some of our noted and best hubbers have, but I have observed their treatment. I haven't commented before now, but the above is the only comment that I intend to make.

  17. sunforged profile image73
    sunforgedposted 12 years ago

    I have made the edit. Thank you for the keen eye and excellent contributions.

    Perhaps you have some more information, hopefully with resource links about the possible effect of typos in forum posts. Should that be on the next wave of edits?

    again, thread derailed. Obviously, not a very interesting topic, I did try.

  18. thisisoli profile image72
    thisisoliposted 12 years ago

    I tried to bring the thread back on track but it didn't happen. This is an incredibly important topic in relation to the future of Hubpages, for everyone.

    While many of the people writing here who do not earn much or write here for entertainment might not have been hit too hard, I do feel as if I should remind you that it is the high earning Hubbers who keep Hubpages financially viable.

  19. Pearldiver profile image67
    Pearldiverposted 12 years ago

    I'm sure you know my point of view smile

    Though I'd say you would be horrified if you knew what my traffic on HP has shrunk down to.... almost mirrors the .11 cents that I earned in the last month! yikes

    I didn't appreciate ALL my links turned off on my pages when I wasn't logged in!
    And when you clicked on those links, a page stated that I was no longer on the site... but hey here's another link!
    I didn't appreciate writing quality, positive work that had inspired many new writers and finding that after 3700 hits on my sales referrals that not one single person had actually joined under my trackers.
    I didn't appreciate finding 'Join Here' links on the top of All my hubs, that are invisible when you are logged in.
    I didn't appreciate being Trolled continuously to the point of being banned all the time for sticking up for myself!
    I've been a business consultant for years with a bit more upstairs than some, even though some think they know better.. but I'm also a writer and an honest person.. so I don't appreciate BS either..
    Having chased Article thieves around this site (as you have also) now for nearly 2 years... I don't appreciate being banned for doing the job that HP should have done, just to show the writers that they cared and were actually concerned that our hubs were scraped on their site!
    I think I understand the forward position that HP expect to gain later, but I am not fodder and nor are the rest of us and I think the efforts lately are conducive to creating one or two new competitors, that WILL TAKE their marketshare, irrespective of how they expect to position themselves with their ad program... which of course is not such a hard task to create!
    Very Sad to see such an inability to understand the people that made up the community... It Truly Was an Excellent site before and Today... Well they have forgotten what the Core of the Business actually is! But then that reflects on the quality of the decisions, rather than the writers.. So I find it pretty bad that the real writers wear it!
    Maybe we should resume that discussion we had a year ago mate.. smile

  20. Mighty Mom profile image79
    Mighty Momposted 12 years ago

    My two cents (about equivalent to my Amazon earnings in 2+ years).
    I've had a couple of my poetry hubs called out for excessive Amazon capsules. Fair enough. Easy enough to delete extraneous and non-performing Amazon links.
    The larger problem for me (and I'm not even talking here about drop in page views because I'm really trying to pretend that's not happening sad).
    You remember when Hub Karma was all the rage and we were encouraged to go through all our hubs and have them suggest links and then we would have all these lovely links to other hubs?
    Well, now that my hubs are full of non-existent links. As hubbers have unpublished hubs, had their hubs unpublished, or left entirely, about 70% of my hubs now have "broken links" warnings on them. Thusfar, I have not found the combination of time and patience to go through each hub and manually fix all these non-links.

  21. sunforged profile image73
    sunforgedposted 12 years ago

    @PD, that was a laugh, when SCRIBD was posting thousands of our hubs, Hp said, file DMCA's.

    I picked up the phone, left a message and received a call back from the CEO and a promise to have all hubs removed ( they were down in an hour, i think?). We are now friends on facebook, he thinks my kid is cute.

    I think HP staff could have walked to that office smile

    I like HP! but I think if all the dissent is behind closed doors, there will be little chance of the site being a recommendable resource. I have always got the impression that HP did listen and respond to community feedback, but Im not seeing much feedback, im just seeing people say, f it and leaving!

    So you got banned for trying to fight the 68articles fight yet again for them? The community members managed to get the site pulled twice, but staff was hands -off then you got banned?

    I never heard that story!

    1. thisisoli profile image72
      thisisoliposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I'm still not sure how PD got banned for that, they were doing some admirable work for the community.

      1. Pearldiver profile image67
        Pearldiverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        After 16 hours straight... I flagged one of the thieves profiles and told them who he was and then they just banned me... No email.. No Thanks a Luckin Fot... Nothing!
        Bar an email from a 'Senior' Hubber asking me to Not Draw Attention to the party!
        Very Interesting... given the fact that all my work was stolen and then sold in e-books!
        Really Not Good Enough...
        Irrespective of who 'Owns the Business!'
        - A Duty of Care Exists in such situations! Not that that is the issue.. Caring was the test.. And They Came Up Short!
        And My work gets sold along with everyone else's!
        Really Not Good Enough!
        It Is Just RAPE.. And I'm Not One who can look the other way!

        1. thisisoli profile image72
          thisisoliposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I would say make the party public knowledge.  If hubpages is hiding content theives than I really will start making steps to move my content elsewhere.

        2. IzzyM profile image87
          IzzyMposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Would I not be right in thinking that you also called someone out in the forums at the same time?

          Not that I'm blaming you, far from it, but maybe your ban stemmed from breaking forum rules?

          1. Pearldiver profile image67
            Pearldiverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Do You Mean THE SOCK PUPPET of the 'Senior' hubber who emailed me?
            I Got Banned I Believe because I made a Statement to HP that it wasn't Good Enough! That was a proven case and it wasn't appreciated!
            I didn't 'Call it Out!' Anybody!
            I challenged the reason why a very nervous sock puppet was intentionally attempting to Side Track me on the issue and playing down the importance of what I was doing!
            - Clearly the email that I got from that party later answered the question! It was just a bit too convenient I'm afraid! I spent 16 hours of MY TIME on that one session, which was one of three. I don't believe the management of this site openly spent any time whatsoever, ensuring that our work was taken down after having been scraped and republished.
            - other than making excuses via the Sock Puppet as to why they 'wouldn't!'
            - Clearly it was a subjective issue.. but at the end of the day I just lost my work.. I didn't loose my credibility, or turn my back on my peers!
            - It WAS a Manipulated Result just like many other situations! sad
            - One thing I've learned in life is.. That it is Hard to make an Honest Man a Liar and Have the Lie Stick! smile

            1. IzzyM profile image87
              IzzyMposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              First thing. Calm Down.
              Are you sure you're not a woman with PMT??

              I remember very well what you did. From one hubber to another I thanks you with all my heart.

              Obviously HP staff didn't help because their rules clearly state that it is not their concern.

              HP staff have a lot on their plate just now.

              So it was a hubbers problem, and you did a tremendous amount of work on tracking down the your own time! And by that I mean you weren't paid for it.

              Once again, thank you:)

              I sort of saw, and sort of didn't, you get into a forum argument. Of course you were wound up. No idea that we even had senior hubbers. Will all senior hubbers please make themselves known.

              But you seem to be missing the point here. Even with right on your side, you cannot openly put down or call another hubber names. Even if that name is 'ignorant' or whatever word you may have used.

              It is construed as an attack, and it is one rule for all, no exceptions.

              I have seen staff being pretty even on this.

              That's all I'm saying..

              1. recommend1 profile image61
                recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                All these issues conspire to lower this site in the eyes of its own users.  The increasingly irritated and confrontational attitude of the staff, the crappy way that hubs get immediately unpublished rather than 'noted', the way hubs seem to get unpublished for petty 'infringements' the day after making criticism of any staff, the apparently confused response to the Panda hit. 

                Putting it all together and analysing it as any other text it becomes clear that there are other issues driving the thing. The most likely candidate is HP's own ad programme and manoevring people into a position that benefits HP.  This would account for the aggression (guilty secret), the plain rudeness of the emails and unpublishing tactic (force), the apparently unwarranted attack on amazon and ebay capsules (removing competition).

                I am no expert on internet matters - especially in how SEO works beyond my immediate vicinity - but I can smell.

              2. Pearldiver profile image67
                Pearldiverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Sorry But Don't Accept That..

                Stolen Content is Stolen Content... Irrespective of HP's Rules (of which clearly allow such content to be stolen in the first place!)

                I am not Wound Up, nor do I suffer from PMT.
                I am very passionate about my writing, my quality and my knowledge! However, I am extremely passionate about people being hurt by thieves and cheats and bullies (including forum trolls!)

                Contrary to your and HP's possible belief.. (and their rules) - A Duty of Care Exists, within the relationship of writer and publisher, irrespective of how it maybe interpreted and promoted by the management, who factually have a vested interest in all aspects of the relationship. Given that an income is generated and shared by the parties as a result of that original content being created for that purpose, I would almost go so far as to contend that the relationship is actually a fiduciary relationship and as such, the parties are 'expected' to ensure that the maximum benefits are gained by the parties. If Content is Stolen and it is indeed stolen as a direct or indirect result of a failure to do all possible to ensure that the content is not stolen, or the income reduced as a result of negligence or alike, or that all reasonable steps have Not been taken to limit such loses... then there would be, I believe a legitimate case to answer.. either way!

                Run that past the Untested Corporate Internet Lawyers.. You may find that I have indeed reason to be pissed off at the total lack of respect of the 'Whole' agreement that you claim HP have No Ability or Need to Deal With, including such issues as Stolen Content! What I have pointed out.. I have pointed out as you have challenged me on an issue that you may well find that I am conversant with. It is an issue that has HUGE influence on every aspect of Internet Site relationships!  It is also going to be put to the test in the near future and I suggest that you understand every TOS agreement that acts as the basis of a trading relationship! It works two ways and should not under any circumstances be removed or played down due to the nature of any distasteful or meaningful subject matter. HP are effectively endorsing such an issue, when they request us to make adjustments to the content that we have previous published, or intend to. Maybe you haven't considered the points that I have made here. They are Valid... Remember they were made illustratively - for the benefit of ALL the Community and Staff.... Just as my efforts to limit the detrimental effect of stolen content were - prior to my being banned for undisclosed and comparatively less significant reasons!

        3. mistyhorizon2003 profile image87
          mistyhorizon2003posted 12 years agoin reply to this

          This is terrible PD, I wondered why you were banned when you were trying to help, but this is horrifying and wrong on so many levels!! I would like to see an answer from the Hubteam on this with their 'explanation' on why you were banned, as no response proves you were, for some reason, banned for an as yet, undisclosed reason that Hubpages could benefit from.

  22. Peter Hoggan profile image68
    Peter Hogganposted 12 years ago

    I am concerned that under the new rules for content, pages that contain affiliate links and links to eBooks, could be unpublished if they are not updated. I don’t know how many pages this affects but I imagine its considerable and can see a large number of pages being unpublished or moved by the author. It seems to me that the cure in this case is much more harmful than the initial problem. Can I suggest to HP that instead of unpublishing you simply nofollow the links you feel you are linking to dubious neighbourhoods?

    1. Pearldiver profile image67
      Pearldiverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Think about it Peter..
      For the Original Objective - Yes that would the best option.
      But... HP has dumped it's Core Business model and taken a punt on where they 'Think' they can be in 2012... I would say!
      Remember.. it is NOT What is Being Said.. it is What Isn't!
      The PUNT appears to be on their Ad Program and having completely Controllable Pages! (Or should I say writing base).
      Why would they want us having affiliate agencies and income with those companies that they wish to also partner! Perhaps that also explains the 'If you don't like it' attitude and the indifference to current SEO practice?
      I don't believe, given the attitude and what is about to happen through the Courts, that HP will achieve and maintain what they 'think' they will.  Hope they do... but not at our expense.
      Of course, they might just be tarting it up to get out before they get squashed! hmm

      1. netlexis profile image63
        netlexisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I'm fine with HP not wanting affiliate links. After all, this is their platform and they can make the rules. But what I would like to know is what the rules are so I know what to expect and can make my own plans. I don't feel I've gotten the information I need. And what I have gotten is vague and seems to be ruled by a chicken little mentality. I've been fortunate that through this debacle I've only lost one hub, but I'd like to be treated more like the partner I am than some little kid who obviously is doing something wrong.  I've provided my content to this platform and HP has made money off of me, so don't I (and the rest of the hubbers) deserve a little more respect?

    2. Mutiny92 profile image64
      Mutiny92posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      more than 1000 hits in hubpages for the search term "hop.clickbank"

  23. profile image0
    EmpressFelicityposted 12 years ago

    I have been (and still am) highly critical of how HP's staff have implemented the reforms, and also question whether some of them are even necessary/desirable.  For example, does that 50 words per Amazon product rule really improve things for readers of product hubs?  As long as hubs aren't plastered with masses of products then surely there shouldn't be a problem.

    I do wonder though whether HP's staff are experiencing behind-the-scenes pressure from the advertisers participating in the new ad programme.  Perhaps it is these advertisers who are insisting on non-pixellated images and a minimum of 50 words per Amazon product. But even if this is true, implementation of the new rules could have been handled far better and more diplomatically than it has been.

  24. Peter Hoggan profile image68
    Peter Hogganposted 12 years ago

    Why is there no commentry here from HP staff?

  25. Bill Manning profile image63
    Bill Manningposted 12 years ago

    I have not done one single thing to any of my hubs since the shakeup. I also have not made a single new one since, and don't have many.

    I have not heard one single thing from the HP staff. I have not had any warnings, messages or anything at all.

    SO I assume all my hubs are in compliance, or they just have not gotten around to me. Or I'm just not worth bothering with. big_smile

  26. Richieb799 profile image65
    Richieb799posted 12 years ago

    What is the best site to move to though? just saved all my hubs, I would just leave my stuff here and try writing elsewhere but stay in forums.. I think Hubpages can survive

    1. mistyhorizon2003 profile image87
      mistyhorizon2003posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Ryan Kett has started a site called that give 80% of Adsense revenue to authors and do not allow any duplicate content. I believe thisisoli has also started a new site for authors, but I cannot recall the name of the site. Neither have been affected by Panda, so well worth looking at. I am signed up with Ryan's already, and planning to move many of my hubs there, plus writing more. I will keep a presence on Hubpages, but right now I am very disillusioned with the place, the ridiculous rules being enforced (e.g. being unpublished for mildly pixelated images, or having ads disabled for using innuendo humour), and the attitude of Hubpages staff that whilst they apparently 'value' their hubbers, they can always replace them if they choose to leave.

      1. Cagsil profile image72
        Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        The page for Oli is Thisisfreelance. Also known as TiF. smile

        1. mistyhorizon2003 profile image87
          mistyhorizon2003posted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Thanks Cags, I am sure this is great info to share, and I might well sign up there too smile

          1. Cagsil profile image72
            Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            You're quite welcome Misty. smile big_smile

  27. thisisoli profile image72
    thisisoliposted 12 years ago

    I fixed my amazon/text ratio on a large number of hubs, this destroyed my conversion rate and did nothing to improve traffic.

  28. Mutiny92 profile image64
    Mutiny92posted 12 years ago

    I have published a few hubs, but nowhere near what I used to.  Instead, I diversified and am focusing efforts on my own sites. 

    Hopefully, these changes will result in increased trust with google and we will see a recovery.

  29. thisisoli profile image72
    thisisoliposted 12 years ago

    As a website owner I know that it would be impossible to follow up on every copyright infringement, however some support would have been nice, and definitely not the opposite.

    1. Pearldiver profile image67
      Pearldiverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Yep.. and for as easy as it was for us to 'Sign' the new ad program.. the writers with stolen content COULD HAVE 'signed' an authority for a member of the management of this site to have acted on our behalf, in the taking down of the stolen content and the 12 sites that were related to the thieves!
      - As Sunforged pointed out, as they could have done this also a year ago with other thieves that raped our work... but chose to ignore the problem then also!
      - However, With 68articles, if HP (under authority of the writers) had acted in such a manner against a party which has multiple accounts here as well.. they could have been challenged by the thief legally! - But hey, they knew that!
      - So the Sock Puppet argued the point with a sad excuse as to why it was not possible!
      Therefore they were completely aware who the thieves were.. before I flagged them.. and they did nothing!

      I'm not going to say anymore... I hope this site gets through all the crap.. but believe me.. to do so, they have to become more transparent. And the whole exercise of stolen content, well let's say that it was dealt with in a less than satisfactory manner.. And I'm sure none of us wish to write content, just to have it stolen again! That will happen again, until this place is more secure and a commitment is made to the writers to do ALL POSSIBLE to try to remove THAT PROBLEM, which I would suggest, should be a major priority to any website owners, irrespective of size, if they wished to look at the problem Honestly! sad

  30. sunforged profile image73
    sunforgedposted 12 years ago

    lol, so you picked choice a? :p

    Im glad to hear an optimistic view. I am critical that you still believe "poor" is the reason why hubbers are being unpublished or that "deserving" means anything in search engine results.

    They didnt really give you an opportunity either, you traded 40% of your income potential in exchange for the use of their platform and agreed to their rules.

    They changed the rules but are keeping the same 40% and are increasingly removing ways for you to promote or capitalize on your efforts without "giving them a cut"

    Do you really see it as one big gift on their end. YOU are the prize, a hard working, best foot forward writer. There are hundreds of platforms that want your efforts and spirit. The producers are the lifeblood.

    But, if you are being treated well and agree with the treatment of your community members then there is no reason to be anything but optimistic.

    1. SimeyC profile image89
      SimeyCposted 12 years agoin reply to this


      I'm not sure if poor is the same for everyone, but in my case I was churning out average hubs - now, I hope, I am churning out quality hubs.

      I've written on the web for years,,, Blogspot (blogger!) and various other revenue earning sites - my total income in about 9 years from those sites is in the order of $100.

      Hubpages is the only site that I have seen decent income - and I'm talking over $100 a month - not $100 a year! So for me, and I know it's subjective, they have given me the opportunity to really earn - I was a 'simpleton' when it came to SEO and that showed in my work on these other sites.......

      I guess it's a question of glass half full or glass half empty....

      1. recommend1 profile image61
        recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I guess it would have been the hubbers here, like sunforged, who helped you to 'improve' your stuff so that you could earn money ??

        Maybe hubbers like Pearldiver finding stolen hubs so that hubbers could get them served with notices ?

        Maybe the other friendly happy hubbes who respond almost immediately to issues and provide instantaneous help?

        You know - all those hubbers who have moved or are in the process of moving or are dispalying their unhappiness and dissatisfaction in this thread ?

        1. SimeyC profile image89
          SimeyCposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I agree - without these great hubbers I probably wouldn't have learned anything....sadly life goes on and for every hubber who leaves there are others who will take their place - sad reality of life.

          I'm not saying its right, or that Hubpages are right in the way that they are being treated....

          1. lrohner profile image67
            lrohnerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Well, there are certainly plenty of self-proclaimed SEO gurus ready to step in and take over. I've seen some of the advice they've given out. It's scary.

            The fact of the matter is that if HP does recover from this, it will be over an extended period of time. Instead of coming to grips with that, they are treating it as if the change can happen overnight.

            If they had even given hubbers until May 1st to make all necessary changes or didn't take the drastic measure of unpublishing those who either didn't get the work done on time or who made repeated errors, I doubt there would be much (if any) backlash, and certainly far fewer hubbers leaving.

            The team continues to operate on the assumption that we're all just angry over the actual changes being made, and that couldn't be further from the truth -- despite the fact that many of us don't agree with all of their changes. If that was the case, I doubt you would have seen respected hubbers like Mark Knowles, Darkside, Ryan Kett and others putting their primary jobs aside to scurry to make the changes that were mandated in the first go-around. And quietly. Little to no complaining.

            HP's attitude towards this whole thing is shocking, to say the least. I know that I'm expendable, as are you. But I certainly don't need it tossed in my face at every turn when I've actually expended two years of effort into doing my part to help new hubbers and make this site the best it can be.

            1. SimeyC profile image89
              SimeyCposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Ironher: you make a lot of sense! It truly is sad to see a lot of the respected hubbers leaving; without them, Hubpages would not be the successful site it is today.

              I truly believe that Hubpages is doing what it needs to do probably based on direct feedback from Google - the way they are going about it, and the 'frustration' that their staff is showing is not the right way to go, but then you have to realize they are people too.

              They are in a businness that suddenly has had the rug pulled from under them and there is going to be panic, and stress - late nights etc. However professsional a company is, some of this is going to be pushed down to their 'staff' - that's us! It doesn't make it right but it is part of the process.

              My company laid off thousands of people last year due to the economy - there was no real communication, no real explanation - it was just done and people were scared and angry - management were frustrated and perhaps could have done more....but today it's all over - people are happy, the company is stable etc.

              The problem Hubpages has, and I'm not making excuses for them, is that they don't have control over the full business model - Google pulls the strings, and when Google makes abrubt changes, Hubpages has to scramble - sometimes when doing this, the whole process isn't througoghly thought out and mistakes are going to be made.

              So where do we go from here? Hubpages is still a viable business, but they need the top performers to come back and stay - how do they get them to come back - that's hard to say....

              Comminication is key, and it has to be a two way communication that isn't defensive on either side. Proper discussions don't include pointing and shouting, but are objective and honest.

              We all have to look at the broader picture and realize it's going to take effort on both sides to fix....

              My suggestion to Hubpages is to reach out to a dozen respected Hubbers and ask for help - before doing anything on a mass scale, explain to this forum what they intend to do, and how they intend to communicate - these hubpages experts can then come back with honest critisism and suggstions and make the whole process smoother. If you get the top hubbers on your side and they are active in assisting Hubpages in explaining the changes, then the majority of Hubbers who already respect these top writers will be happier.....

              1. thisisoli profile image72
                thisisoliposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Simey you can find Paul Edmonson on the Google webmaster forums asking what they should be doing, unfortunately it appears (from action as well as deduction) that they have no direct link with Google on what they need to do.

      2. White Teeth profile image59
        White Teethposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        But was it Hubpages that taught you about SEO, or was it the members like Misha, Sunforged, and Oli? If these people are gone, is it going to be the same?

        1. SimeyC profile image89
          SimeyCposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          It's a combination - the realization that I couldn't churn out the same old crap made me research! I read a lot of brilliant hubs, but also researched outside of Hubpages - I'm still learning and applying these lessons.

          And being honest - I respect Misha, Oli and sunforged - I really have learned a lot from them - but others will turn up -that's the sad fact of life and probably something that Hubpages is aware of - people will leave, but peole will join - some of those will be SEO experts.

          1. White Teeth profile image59
            White Teethposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I imagine there will be plenty of “SEO experts”…Misha was the best resource Hubpages had because he was pretty regular about calling out the wrong information being stated in the forums.

            1. Misha profile image63
              Mishaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Oh, thank you smile Though I don't think those who despite of management attitude decide to stay here will need any SEO. Spamming Stumbleupon does not require any knowledge, and the rest of SEO is black hat and should be avoided like a plague. *sarcasm smiley*

      3. sunforged profile image73
        sunforgedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I had to look that one up - BOHICA is quite apt for the rolling changes! , made me laugh, thanks.

  31. Shadesbreath profile image81
    Shadesbreathposted 12 years ago

    So far, nothing has happened to any of my stuff. Traffic is down noticeably, but I am wayyyy too lazy to learn all the crap I'll have to learn to move all my crap somewhere else. I don't make much anyway. I hope they fix whatever is wrong so I don't have to learn stuff again. My brain is still recovering from learning how to work the small number of HP tools I eventually figured out.

  32. Will Apse profile image86
    Will Apseposted 12 years ago

    I have had nothing in the way of Hubs unpublished, dire warnings etc, etc. I reckon that it is only a very small percentage of hubbers who are affected.

    The people who are having problems are the ones who think there are ways to manipulate Google or that there are short cuts to success. I am starting to think it is something pathological- a character trait that produces a feeling something like 'if I can't cheat, I have no chance of success'.

    This is a little sad.

    1. sunforged profile image73
      sunforgedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      What is sad?

    2. Aficionada profile image82
      Aficionadaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I think there's far more to it than that.  Many people who are having problems have followed instructions and suggestions - even from HP staff - but the guidelines have changed, and so now they have to change their Hubs.  And when they have hundreds of Hubs, they may have a problem simply because guidelines have changed, not because they tried to manipulate Google or find a shortcut to success.

      In answer to the OP - I did have a couple of Hubs that broke the Amazon:word ratio guideline, changed them quickly, had no problem.  Had to unlink a few broken links.  But with the relatively few Hubs I have, it has been pretty easy for me.  A lesser account of mine had one Hub that needed a huge, total overhaul, so I simply unpublished it.  It may not be worth republishing.

    3. mistyhorizon2003 profile image87
      mistyhorizon2003posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      If only this were true, but look at my Hubs and you will see they are not 'cheats' in any way. I am certain the same applies to many hubbers here.

      1. Cagsil profile image72
        Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Agreed. smile

    4. thisisoli profile image72
      thisisoliposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Will, I haven't received any warnings apart from hubs having too large an ad capsule to text ratio, and all fixing that did was ruin my CTR.

      Do please attempt to get some idea about what you are talking about before you keep insulting us all.

    5. netlexis profile image63
      netlexisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      There are always people who will be looking to game the system and nothing Google does will stop that. What I find offensive as a reader about this whole Panda slap is the nannyfication (I know it's not a word) of the Internet. I don't need Google to tell me what quality content is. I'm a grown up person who knows what I like -- and I know where the back button is and I'm not afraid to use it!

  33. Will Apse profile image86
    Will Apseposted 12 years ago

    People who feel there is no chance of success unless they cheat are suffering a delusion and it must be an unpleasant feeling.

    1. Pearldiver profile image67
      Pearldiverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      It Must Indeed Be..

    2. sunforged profile image73
      sunforgedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      The relevance to this thread is?

      Are you assuming that all who are not happy with current changes or treatment must be delusional cheaters? Thats a hard position to argue against. Its the type one would just ignore, like the poor guy in the central square waving the protest sign and making his children hand out pamphlets.

      I cant ignore that many of the changes were well necessary and hopefully a great deal of "cheaters" have been wiped away, Im just also damn sure that many were swept up in the flood that were at worst "unsavvy" and at best, legitimate writers and community members.

      It must be nice living in such a clearly defined world.

    3. Cagsil profile image72
      Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      That's a bit extreme. Not to mention, quite ridiculous.

    4. skyfire profile image80
      skyfireposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      If this comes from a person like gandhi or dalai lama then it's worth thinking for a few minutes. But it's you again, that too by assuming any person other than YOU attempting to work with SEO/Business is delusional cheater ? *Shrugs*

  34. thisisoli profile image72
    thisisoliposted 12 years ago

    Simey, I think you need to re-evaluate your comparison.

    Imagine Sheffield Utd started suffering because of their subs (duplicate content, spun content, etc) were underperforming. To remedy this Sheffield sacked all the subs, after all they can find new subs right.  Unfortunately a few other players in the defence (Affiliate links, amazon ads), get injured (Caught in the cross-fire) and the team suddenly starts playing significantly worse. 

    But Sheffield United then start blaming the defence, and sack the defence, and then the team gets even worse, the midfield (pixelated images, watermarked video) is still playing fine, but without the defense (sales) they underperform so they get sacked too, even though nothing was wrong with them.

    Soon all you have left is the goalkeeper (content).

    Now throw in a rule that players are only allowed to wear left boots on both feet (Panda update), and that the management refused to listen to the pleas of the players as they tried to hold the team together, and continued to sack good players, without realising that it was damaging the overall quality of the team.

    1. mistyhorizon2003 profile image87
      mistyhorizon2003posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      What a wonderful analogy Oli smile Nicely put.

    2. Marisa Wright profile image88
      Marisa Wrightposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I like this.

  35. thisisoli profile image72
    thisisoliposted 12 years ago

    Also don't forget that as players get sacked all the fans (backlinks) leave.

    1. Lissie profile image66
      Lissieposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Brilliant - backlinks as fans must remember that one!

    2. Peter Hoggan profile image68
      Peter Hogganposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      And as the backlinks leave, the power of HP is further diminished and so the spiral of ever decreasing returns continues.

      1. thisisoli profile image72
        thisisoliposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        To fit it in to the anology - look at Sheffield Wednesday :p

  36. lakeerieartists profile image64
    lakeerieartistsposted 12 years ago

    I have said this before but my biggest issue is that with over 300 hubs it takes a lot of time to revise them.  Most of my hubs are Amazon and Ebay focused hubs.  They were doing quite well, and were well written.

    By changing the formula of text to product ratio, my CTR and sales rate on all of those hubs went way down, and that was even after the traffic loss.

    I do not have time to revise hubs over and over, and even one time for each hub would take weeks or months to do, as I do have other priorities in my life, family, work other than Hubpages, and the priorities are prioritized by the income I am receiving from them. (Other than family). 

    With income from Hubpages drastically cut, I had to work to increase in other places, and that is still not complete.  Therefore, I have even less time to revise hubs.

    The changes are coming too fast for many of us to keep up with, and getting hubs unpublished when we are trying to comply is just even more frustrating.

    I have personally not had an issue with any Hubpages staff, but I have seen their tempers come across in the forums, and this frankly is part of what is upsetting the community.

    I would like to see more and better ongoing communication, and a little more respect for the time that hubbers have put into their accounts.  You can't please everyone, but you can be courteous to those you are frustrating.  We all are extremely busy people that are just trying to live our lives, and make a living.  For some people, even those who do not make large amounts of money on this site, the money they do make is what keeps their household going, and their creditors from their door.

    1. Cagsil profile image72
      Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Well said. smile big_smile

  37. Smart Rookie profile image60
    Smart Rookieposted 12 years ago

    When the new terms were implemented and I got warning emails about all the hubs I'd written that now violated the arbitrary "50 words to one amazon capsule" mandate, I promptly went back and changed every one to maintain compliance. I was of the mindset that I'd be willing to change any content I'd made if it was not in compliance with their newfangled rules and regulations. After I worked to fix all the stuff I was emailed about, I thought I was all set.

    Recently, I've had two hubs (again, written before the rules changed) unpublished for violation of TOS for being "overly promotional," "Solely or excessively promoting another site, especially when Hub links all point to one site." Only problem is, the ONLY links on either of these hubs not contained in amazon capsules or news feeds are links to OTHER HUBS. So, I'm taking that to mean that I had too many links going to other hubpages and that's a bad thing because Hubpages doesn't want to promote itself from within its own site by its own writers.
    So be it.

    According to 'the rules:' "Your Hub may not contain an RSS feed that directs to the same site as a link within the body of the hub. I've deduced that this applies to Hubpages too. I must have missed that somewhere along the line. Sorry. 

    I was kindly informed via email that repeated "violations" will result in the banning of my account and that I should familiarize myself with their Terms of Use before publishing again.

    My only response is, no worries, guys. No need for concern about that whatsoever, thanks. Hope you've enjoyed my hub hopping and flagging and reporting spam in the forums for you. In return, I thank you kindly for all your courtesy and respectful gestures of esteem.

    1. profile image0
      EmpressFelicityposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      You might also find that those hubs which had originally given a clean bill of health by the 50 words per product automated flagging thingie, did in fact contain less than 50 wpp because the flagging thingie wasn't accurate.

      Try doing a word count on your "overly promotional" unpublished hubs and dividing it by the number of Amazon products.

      I had one hub of mine unpublished as overly promotional (I was lucky that it was just one hub) and when I reduced the number of Amazon products even further, they let it through.  Then I had to go back over 70 other hubs a second time to further reduce the number of products on them, before they too were unpublished.  Yes, I just LOVE doing the same job twice over.

  38. profile image62
    logic,commonsenseposted 12 years ago

    Just remember, you can't roller skate in a buffalo herd, but you can be happy if you've a mind to.

    Besides, there's always  tomorrow, it's just a day away! smile

  39. humagaia profile image57
    humagaiaposted 12 years ago

    SF asked for feedback on two specific issues:
    "I would like to hear more about the individual treatment many are receiving behind closed doors. That is, if you are willing to share.

    Whats going on! What silly unpublishing and communication have you received, dont let it all sit and fester in private, make sure your fellow users and writers are aware."

    With regard to the first issue, I have had no 'behind closed doors' communication. In fact communication lines opened by me have had no response whatsoever. When asked what the actual problem might be, when receiving a vague VOT (violation of terms) e-mail, no reply has ever been received. I do note, however, that these vague VOT notices now have a 'moderators note' attached - a step in the right directed, if somewhat late.

    Which brings me to the second issue:
    I'm fine with making changes where changes are necessary. I can live with (just about) having to make changes a couple of times to a single hub, when a new rule is thought up, and my hub contravenes the new TOS (well actually, thinking about it, no I am not!), after having been cleared for publication only a few days earlier.

    But these TOS violations are now becoming just plain ridiculous!

    Point in context:
    Your hub has been unpublished Violation: Promotes site(s) or product(s) unrelated to Hub content.
    The hub in question has NO links whatsoever in the body of the hub. There are no products to promote. The ONLY link is one that is published by HP themselves because they allow a link to an outside contributor that has made a valid comment on my hub, which I have accepted (and I make sure I don't accept spam comments, so WTF.

    Easy to change I know - I just deny the comment
    is this really a situation where my hub needs to be unpublished (when I had just completed changes to it and resubmitted for publication - the changes being necessary due to me stupidly following previous guidelines concerning an RSS feed to my own (related) hubs).

    Second point in context:
    I have also had one hub, and I expect more, to be unpublished due to an irrelevant tag ('are best top). This tag was one set up specifically for a non-HP challenge (60DC), so that all hubs could be related together for the challenge.

    I know the challenge is over. I know the tag is unrelated to my hub contents. Just let me know and I will change it - it is easy enough to change. I don't even need to edit my hub as I can change tags from without. But to unpublish the hub because a tag is inappropriate is just plain ridiculous.

    Note to 60DC challengers: check all your challenge hubs and get rid of this and other related tags before your hubs are unpublished. (Those that piggybacked the challenge by using the 'secret' tags will also be [effected, affected (you choose)] by this TOS violation).

    I've made the change, but after making the change I had to edit the hub (no edits necessary) in order to resubmit for publication. It will now take 24 - 48 hours before it is republished - right - it has taken up to 5 days for some of my hubs to be republished, only to be unpublished a day or so later for a new TOS violation.

    Do you note the air of frustration in my post? I hope so as I am feeling frustrated, frustrated, frustated, and p'd off.

    It is now coming to the stage where I think, what's the point of making changes when the hub is going to violate TOS when another violation is thought up. I am usually a laid back person. If I get to the point of being p'd off then something serious must be occurring.

    Something serious is occurring!

    Are we seeing the demise of HP?

    You may think I am scaremongering, but the signs are there. Headless chickens, poor PR, badmouthing customers (for all of us are HP customers), falling sales, haemorrhaging customers, blaming others (Google and their Panda update), overworked staff, underperforming products (our hubs), no response to legitimate concerns - the list goes on.

    If you are unaware of these things or you are not impacted in some way, then your back-side must be in the air and your head in the sand.

    We have seen all the 'HP-proclaimed rats' leaving the ship. I wonder why? The rats that are left will have a bigger slice of the grain left behind, but the diminishing returns will mean that the grain will not be replenished.

    HP may well survive, but in what form? I think not in the form that we had come to love and admire. Getting rid of all the link juice will mean that it will probably fall by the wayside, become an alcoholic, and fade into obscurity.

    I hope not, but I am afraid that it will.

    The Panda update is not the problem: it is a smoke-screen. Others have speculated about the reasons. I will leave it to you to make up your own mind.

    I hope this adds to your list of 'hubber grievances' SF. If you are gone, as you imply above, I wish to work with you elsewhere, should we meet again on another platform. And to all other ex-hubbers that have decided that they must be 'one of the rats' that caused HP to lose so many visitors - I hope to meet you again also, perhaps in a place that respects customers as much as HP once did.

    1. Sue Adams profile image95
      Sue Adamsposted 12 years ago

      Sorry but I just can't stand those recurring mistakes.

    2. humagaia profile image57
      humagaiaposted 12 years ago

      Sorry, just realised - I don't even need to go in to edit my hub to get rid of a violating comment. In fact, I CANNOT get rid of it by editing the hub.

      O woe! Why am I even bothering?

    3. Will Apse profile image86
      Will Apseposted 12 years ago

      Hubpages is still big site with a lot of visitors. You might have noticed Mahalo sacked staff as soon as Panda hit. Hubpages hired more staff and got down to the business of clearing out the poor content.

    4. humagaia profile image57
      humagaiaposted 12 years ago

      And I will note also that the comment is not external after all but is from (a hubber with a profile) - so sorry questor - you are gone from my accepted comments.

    5. humagaia profile image57
      humagaiaposted 12 years ago

      Humagaia wrote "If you are unaware of these things or you are not impacted in some way, then your back-side must be in the air and your head in the sand."

      Will Apse wrote "Hubpages is still big site with a lot of visitors. You might have noticed Mahalo sacked staff as soon as Panda hit. Hubpages hired more staff and got down to the business of clearing out the poor content."

      True, but if those staff members then cause dissatisfaction among HP customers, will HP still be a big site in the future.

      Time will tell. And I am glad that at least one customer is satisfied and will stay to the bitter end. Turn the lights off when you leave.

    6. Mark Ewbie profile image82
      Mark Ewbieposted 12 years ago

      Well it's either post another comment or watch the Wedding build up.

      If HP had done nothing I would be more worried.  Traffic is seriously down.  What are they supposed to do?  Smile and carry on in a failed model?

      I am going to assume that they are doing all this for a reason, the reason being to protect their business, maybe even change it.

      I understand this hurts for a lot of people, but, and I am going to be really honest here - that's not my problem.

      I am here to write stuff and earn a bit of income.  If it doesn't work here - where am I supposed to go?  A different content farm?  My own website?

      Well, maybe, but I think they are all, mostly, in the same boat.  These new sites being set up so people can publish what they want to without the silly HP rules - surely within months they just become yet another unregulated content site?

      So, I am glad to see stuff happening, and I hope more stuff - copied scam content in particular - gets cleared out.

      I do sympathise with those who have been hit, honest, and I am just a newbie who has never made any serious money anyway. Just want to say that not everybody is dismayed with HP, or thinking of leaving.

      1. lakeerieartists profile image64
        lakeerieartistsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Mark, I just wanted to point out that your assumption that all content farms and similar individual sites are in the same boat is incorrect.  Hubpages got hit especially hard, and I have several sites with extremely similar types of pages and content as on Hubpages, and those either were not affected or are doing better since the Google Panda changes.

        Hubpages is in a unique situation, and they do need to revise, but I would like to see it done with more dignity, and respect for the people who have contributed to the site overall. 

        Of course, this is a business that Hubpages owns, and we are contributors, or customers.  But we are important, even if we can be replaced, it will take time to get an entire new crew of prolific hubbers, who can make this site great.  A better choice would be to work hard to retain the hubbers that contribute positively, and retrain people to write in the way they need now.

        1. humagaia profile image57
          humagaiaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          In addition to L.E.A. post:

          And, if that is what HP are trying to do, then how would they attract these new writers if their reputation is shot, and there are better places, that respect and better reward their contributors, available.
          This is just evolution in action. Where a niche is opened up because of the demise of a major player, a new or more adaptable species takes its place.
          The following saying comes to mind "the King is dead, long live the king".

      2. thisisoli profile image72
        thisisoliposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Mark, the problems are not with the Google slap, they are to do with how it was all handled.  Immediately after the Google slap a lot of Hubbers got down to the business of recuperating losses., but soon after that Hubpages started making changes that had little if no impact on recovering from Panda.

        Instead of helping the situation Hubpages changes have further decreased traffic and conversions across the board for most of us.

        Do you think directly after teh Panda update was teh best time to start chasing people who had uploaded pixelated images?

        1. Mark Ewbie profile image82
          Mark Ewbieposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Blimey, I seem to have worked my way into an unpaid representative of HP.  I'm like one of those scabs who go into work when every one else is on strike.

          Thisisoli - to answer your question - I don't know.  It doesn't sound like the most important thing in the world. A lot of of the toing and froing, rule changing, explanation of rule changing, reasons for rule changing and conversation with Hubbers could and should have been handled better.

          The dealing with experienced Hubbers with hundreds of pages and / or millions of hits doesn't sound right or sensible. 

          To be fair - if that is possible - I think a lot of Hubbers AND HP staff are under a fair amount of strain.  Not helped by the unknown element of what the Google deal is.

          Can I ask that further replies are aimed at HP rather than me, because they don't actually pay me for this.

          1. thisisoli profile image72
            thisisoliposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I hear they are hiring at the moment tongue

    7. humagaia profile image57
      humagaiaposted 12 years ago

      ME wrote: "I am here to write stuff and earn a bit of income.  If it doesn't work here - where am I supposed to go?  A different content farm?  My own website?"

      If HP dies, you will have to go somewhere else anyway.

      I just want HP to understand that the way they are doing things is not conducive to a long-term future. And a long term future is what we all hope will be available with HP.

      Perhaps if HP understood the food chain, I would be less worried. The food chain works like this:

      Google, HubPages, Hubbers, Viewers.

      Google supplies a platform through which HP can get free site submission and crawler visits. HP is a customer of Google. There are other suppliers of these services.

      Hubpages supplies a platform to hubbers for them to write, publish, and indirectly get access to Google and other search engine traffic. There are other platforms that can be used.

      Hubbers supply content for viewers to access. Viewers can go anywhere they like to get that content.

      If we as hubbers do not fulfil the information need of viewers then we are not getting the potential customers that we are expecting.

      If hubpages does not fulfil the expectations of hubbers, or alienates its customers (us), then their business strategy is flawed.

      If Google does not satisfy its customers - surfers, contributors of content, writing platforms (HP), big business - then it too will decline. We are seeing this with the rise of Bing, the resurrection (somewhat) of Yahoo, and the move towards social-media surfing (Twitter and Facebook).

      Those higher up a corporate food-chain must keep their clients happy in order to sustain their market share, profitability and future expansion.

      Tell me, what would happen (has happened) in the real world when a business has lost sight of who their customers are, and made a PR faux pas that has lost them their major customers? They decline(d) and die(d).

      HP must start to realise who their customers are.

      Their customers are not Google or any other search engine or directory; they are not the viewers that arrive here (not directly anyway); they are us, hubbers, that are their customers and that pay their wages (with the 40% cut, and all the spin-offs that come, only because of our content).

      If they understood that then all would be well.

      Yes, some of the changes will be to our benefit, and great that they are undertaking some changes. But, when change for change sake takes place that causes the major customers to review their buying policy (writing hubs and allowing them to be hosted on the HP platform) then the alarm bells should be ringing and HP should be doing everything in their power to redress the situation. They should be taking every opportunity to listen to hubber concerns, even accept some assistance from hubbers that know what they are talking about, to ensure that the hubbers that are generating the most income for the site are happy.

      Well gradually HP will find that the hubbers that generate the most income in the new environment will be happy. Unfortunately those hubbers will not be those that generated high income in the recent past. Those hubbers will be long gone. The new hubber elite will not generate anywhere near the income that the lost customers did. The lost customers will be generating income for someone else - who looks after them better.

      How will this impact you?

      Not a lot I suspect - your viewers and income will be what you deserve. But it is a matter of speculation whether your income might have been greater if the exodus does not occur.

      My suspicion is that an online business is much the same as a real world business. Lose your best customers and you will lose your business eventually.

      Do you not think that the reason given for the Google Panda update was a smoke screen, smoke and mirrors? Have you not considered that the update was because Google understood that it needed to satisfy it's best customers? And who are their best customers? - not you, me, surfers. or the likes of HP, that's for sure. Their most important customers are big business that put pressure on to put the little people, like you and me and HP, in their place - down the search results, so that the big sites, like Amazon and Ebay and The Times and the Murdoch companies, could see their revenue share return. It is because our content is so good, in targeting and SEO terms, that there needed to be something done.

      So, improving SEO'd content is, IMO, the last thing that Google will take notice of. Our only hope is to create content for niches that the big boys don't want, or have time to target.

      So what are all the changes at HP going to do? Nothing for their customers, in terms of getting ranking back. Nothing in terms of competing on the Amazon or Ebay platform. Everything to rid themselves of their best customers, who earn the dosh, so that non-performing hubbers have a platform on which to write for free. But perhaps that is how they see the new panoply - get rid of SEO, so that they do not get slapped again, when some hubs outrank the big boys.

      All hubbers should be aware of who pays for you to write here for free. It sure as hell is not HP. It is your vilified super-hubbers who pays the price. With those gone where will you / we be?

      You should be following the lead of those that are telling you that all is not right - not licking the a... of the deconstructor (not a misspelling, it was carefully constructed to get the message across that HP is destroying itself at the same time as deconstructing a successful business model).

      1. Susana S profile image92
        Susana Sposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Great post Humagaia. Totally agree with your observations.

      2. SunSeven profile image60
        SunSevenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Wow! Thats the best dissection I have seen on the forum, so far, after the panic began. Applause to you Sir and I am happy to be your new fan. smile

        And, THANKS to you SF, for setting the table. smile

        Best Regards

    8. sunforged profile image73
      sunforgedposted 12 years ago

      Mark, Since I didnt laugh (that's a first!) I guess Ill throw in a serious response (that's another first), you should have your own website or blog, not to spite HP or because the model isn't currently strong but simply because I have never heard of a single creative writer making a worthwhile return from the click/sales model. Such a blog would quickly gain followers I would be one of the first subscribers when I felt like being entertained.

      Develop a book, add a way to buy that book , write at every location that will have you (including here)

      As for the rest of your post, hope is nice and your assumptions seem logical but it would seem you have no experience with the changes or staff interaction as per the OP? Im sure there are other threads that want to meander about willy nilly...

      I think HG ended this thread very powerfully, shame you had to fluff it up.

      @HG , I dont plan on leaving quite yet. Some stuff may get reshuffled around, but I already took what I couldn't allow to be damaged and am prepared to move whatever is republished and loses rank, Of course, I am sitting out on new publishing for awhile. But, I like the forum, I enjoy my breaks here ..seems like the population has dwindled and someone fed the Mogwais after midnight, but it happens.

      Rumors Of My Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated wink

      1. Mark Ewbie profile image82
        Mark Ewbieposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Sunforged, thanks for your advice, it's appreciated.  I am quite happy to delete the rest of my 'contributions' to this thread in order to assist in focussing the message. Your call.

    9. Pearldiver profile image67
      Pearldiverposted 12 years ago

      Life does tend to be a set of ironic events doesn't it? hmm

      - Wasn't Kate's Dress awesome?

      - Wow all that pomp and ceremony, the glamor, the glitz, the money, the display of total separatist 'them and us' theme!

      - But the horses still crap on the carefully groomed streets and the grounds of the palace! big_smile

      - A bit like that naughty Google thoroughbred.. all over our best efforts to keep our hubs and our life paths within HP clean! roll

      Gotta love the way they all look the other way, ignoring the crap and say: "Oh Gosh... I understand this hurts for a lot of people, but, and I am going to be really honest here - that's not my problem."

      - Love your spurs ME roll

      - I LOVE HORSES big_smile

    10. humagaia profile image57
      humagaiaposted 12 years ago

      SimeyC wrote: "I truly believe that Hubpages is doing what it needs to do probably based on direct feedback from Google"

      ROFLMAO - the HP blog posted what it had asked Google direct, some days or a week or so ago - to date I have seen no update from HP stating anything concerning a reply from Google. I can only assume, if there has not been an update in the last 24 hours, that they do not have a direct line to Google, and that they are getting the same treatment from G as we are getting from HP, i.e. they don't think we matter.

      SimeyC also wrote: "They are in a businness that suddenly has had the rug pulled from under them and there is going to be panic, and stress - late nights etc. However professsional a company is, some of this is going to be pushed down to their 'staff' - that's us!"

      Please note, we ARE NOT their staff. There is no contract of employment - that is stated quite clearly in Terms and Conditions. There is, however, a contract  between the two parties that places some conditions on HubPages. I am not sure who mentioned it, but HP should be clear that the methods they are employing against content that was written whilst under the terms of that contract, may be construed as a breach of that contract, especially under UK law (if not US and elsewhere). I would hate this whole episode to end in legal action that brought down HP.

      SunSeven wrote: "Wow! Thats the best dissection I have seen on the forum, so far, after the panic began. Applause to you Sir and I am happy to be your new fan"

      I appreciate having more fans. HP should appreciate more those hubbers that have been loyal fans of theirs for a considerable time.

      Appreciation is not just saying 'our customers (or writers) are our greatest asset" - but should be shown by respect for their issues, problems and opinions. This, in the last few weeks, has been sadly lacking. Just one more example of a company in need of a consistent, thought out, plan of action.

      1. SimeyC profile image89
        SimeyCposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Couple of points:
        -Google - we probably won't ever know the discussions - if they are talking to Hubpages, then they will not disclose this as they will not want competitors knowing what they know; if they are not talking to Google then there's nothing to say! It just seems that some of the changes are 'random' and they wouldn't be doing them just 'because' - so I suspect and I can be wrong that there is some input from Google, maybe in general terms that has prompted HPs action.
        -I note I put 'staff' and not staff - I realize we are not staff but without our work they would not exist - that was the point I was making.
        -" but HP should be clear that the methods they are employing against content that was written whilst under the terms of that contract, may be construed as a breach of that contract" - what I personally find funny is that I don't recall anyone bringing up the terms and contract when money was rolling in - why does it take a Pandemic for people to complain about a brach of contract - I'm sure they've breached the contract many times. I also note that the TOS has a pretty huge 'get out of jail' clause:

        HubPages reserves the right to modify or discontinue, temporarily or permanently, the Service or any portion thereof at any time, without liability to You or any third party. In addition, HubPages, in its sole discretion, may terminate Your password, account or use of or access to the Service (including Impression services as further described below), and remove and delete any Hubs or Content, for any reason.

    11. Pearldiver profile image67
      Pearldiverposted 12 years ago

      Look Wake Up!!!
      Stop Pussy Footing around and Face the Facts!

      Effectively the hubbers have been TOLD - "this is not a democracy.. it is a privately owned business... we are working our butts off to make YOU Happy and if you can't be happy.. F off!"

      Does this require translation? hmm

      The Shareholders are Not the hubbers. In Business the shareholders risk their capital and futures against their ability to make and implement solid business decisions!
      - They are working their butts off for themselves and as such, (in fact quite rightly so), have developed an ad regime that has the ability to REMOVE a percentage of the Influence of 'Competitors' like Google and Co. who Dictate to them.
      I am sure THAT is or should be their short term goal...
      I am sure that once achieved they will Cash Up... perhaps with Google.
      - No One here is considered to be important enough to the Shareholder's Objectives, to be invited to their party! - END OF STORY!
      - Many of the concerns that 'WE' have are Valid from a writer's perspective.. but not from a 'renewable resource' perspective! They have a Dollar Each Way on the Outcome, irrespective of whether or not hubbers leave!
      - They DO NOT NEED to give a toss either way.. But Factually from analyzing the broken fractions here, there are certain scenarios that they have not been astute enough to consider to be possible... And If you are Smart.. you will Also Be Realistic and Counter the Negative Effects that such Business Statements from the Shareholders and Staff Create!

      EDIT... Oh yeah, in regard to the TOS Disclaimer.. I believe a company called Puffington's Ghost also had a TOS agreement of similar reliance! I covered that issue earlier in the thread, though it probably sailed past many!

      1. Eric Graudins profile image61
        Eric Graudinsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Absolutely correct.
        In fact, culling the herd and replacing them with newer, more compliant livestock could be part of the master plan.
        I'm sure that there's a cost/benefit analysis on a spreadsheet somewhere that say losing xx% of existing hubs and hubbers is an acceptable outcome in moving to their new system.

        The mistake that hubbers are making is thinking it's somehow important to HP that they have been been here for so long, or published so many hubs, or made $xx for Hubpages in the past.

        cheers, Eric G.

        1. Pearldiver profile image67
          Pearldiverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Absolutely Correct Eric...

          And Spoken by a man with very solid Business and SEO Acumen!

          I feel very lucky that you sent me that link mate... I will join you in that forum shortly... Ah the power of good minds and commonsense huh? big_smile


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