What ACTUAL Socialists think of the health care bill

1. 84

   kerrygposted 14 years ago

   Thought some of you right wingers might be interested in seeing what some ACTUAL socialists think of the health care bill. Not that I expect any of you to admit that Obama isn't socialist by any definition of the word and is, in fact, center-right, but hey, anything is worth a shot, right?
   
   In fact, quite a few of the provisions of Obamacare were originally proposed by Republicans in the 90's as their counter-proposal to Clinton's reform effort. This includes the individual mandate, which was originally proposed by conservative economist Mark Pauly and was included in a 1993 bill, hilariously, co-sponsored and voted for by a number of Republicans now claiming the individual mandate is unconstitutional.
   
   Ah, politics!
   
   Anyway, here are the promised socialists:
   
   http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/mar20 … -m23.shtml
   
   Here's a sample:
   
   "Social Security and Medicare were wrested from the ruling establishment as a result of great social struggles on the part of working men and women. But the Obama health care plan is being imposed from above by that very ruling elite, with no input from the American people. Its features bear no relation to genuine reform, but in fact comprise a retrograde package of cutbacks and rationing that will serve to boost the profits of the health care industry."
   
   As you can see, their opinion of the bill bears next-to-no relation to Obama's.

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      Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      You said Obama was actually center right? where is the proof of this claim?
      
      Whether Republicans had anything to do with this liegislation is irrelevant, Republicans can be just as bad as Obama, remember GW?
      
      Obama is only center right to Karl Marx and just barely at that.

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      1. 84

         kerrygposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Thanks for proving my point, I guess.
         
         ~sighs~
         
         Clinton was center-right himself, so the fact that Obama's health care bill resembles the Republicans' plan more closely than Clinton's in some of its most important details says something. If you look at his economics and foreign policy teams, you'll also see that they incline towards the center-right, as have many of his proposals in those areas. He gave in on abortion in the health care bill, over the loud protests of the left, and opposes gay marriage. He stuck with the Wall Street-friendly cap-and-trade plan in his energy legislation, and supports "clean coal," a myth, and ethanol, which does more harm than good, over the protests of the majority of environmentalists.
         
         Shall I go on?

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         1. 61

            Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, please do, all you have said is he is not a very good leader! He can't get the party that he leads to vote for his agenda without bribery and threats, sorry he just is a bad President.

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         Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Marx is dead.  Try to keep up.

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      Ralph Deedsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks, Kerry. Interesting. I guess I'm not a socialist or a communist.

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         Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         If you're a pervert, you can still come to our meetings.

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   3. 66

      SparklingJewelposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      ...the real culprits are the elites that succeed in running the country and finances through the government, right and left.
      
      the whole system of definitions of the "sides" is changing...under our current government, the elites are increasing, the poor are increasing and the middle class is disappearing...I think what you are calling right wingers are the middle class that see they are getting screwed from all current sides and are waking up to the Constitutional concepts that right and left have ignored for a long time.
      
      revolution is in the air and it is not going away...civil disobedience will take charge soon and the elites will have no populations that will contribute to lining the elite's pockets...instead will build for themselves and ignore attempts at continued manipulations of the masses by the elites.
      
      most people aren't stupid when pushed to the wall or the floor, they will stand for their rights according to the Constitution

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      1. 84

         kerrygposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         No, the people that I'm calling right wingers are the numerous idiots that show up for a thread or two (and sometimes stick around) wailing about what a socialist Obama is. Anybody who thinks Obama is a socialist doesn't know what a socialist is.
         
         Anybody who thinks socialism is an irrevocable evil doesn't know what socialism is either. I think if you read the article I linked above, you will find that you will agree with more of it than not. You might have different end goals, but socialists are just as furious about the wholesale destruction of the middle classes as the Tea Party movement.

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   4. 0

      Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Center-right?   You do jest!
      
      
      And even if his "health-care" Bill WERE to lean Right,  that's the least of my worries, 'cause the rest of him leans so far left he's got one leg in hell already.

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         AdsenseStrategiesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Any leader who lets corporations continue to get away with the crap they are continuing to get away with is NOT left of anything

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         china manposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I guess you mean Communist if that leg is in hell!? 
         
         You should get out of your narrow viewpoint and come over look at Communist China - they are out-Capitalism-ing you guys flat out

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   5. 62

      AdsenseStrategiesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      To be sure, a Socialist usually tries to nationalize most everything that moves. Britain's (old) Labour Party certainly did this. Britain's completely publicly-run health care system is an example (a system, by the way, even ultra-Reaganite Margaret Thatcher left standing through her entire career as leader).
      
      Obama may certainly have stuck his hand into corporate affairs a lot further than many other presidents (but aren't a lot of his cabinet in this regard leftovers from Bush anyway...), but he has NOT nationalized ANY industries, and that includes the health insurance industry.
      
      I mean, even now, after over a year of Obama in office, is there a SINGLE natinalized industry in America? If he is a Socialist, then he is doing it wrong.

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      Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      That's strange, Free-marketeers hate it, and so do Socialists.
      
      It's almost like, it was a socialist plan, that got nerfed half way in order to be passed...
      
      ... hmm....

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2. 81

   earnestshubposted 14 years ago

   Well said kerryg!
   Facts don't seem to be the issue for some.
   Why would they let facts change their prejudices?
   
   They will see him in the usual way.
   A black muslim, god hatin, left wing commmie because he brings change. Well overdue change.

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      Phoebe Pikeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I think the real problem is that he doesn't really have anything they can condemn him for. He respects Americans, he tolerates different ideas, he tries to help people and he even put someone he was running against in office.
      
      The real issue is that a lot of people have no idea what socialism actually is! I asked about 50 people to define it and only 3 people could tell me. Not that shocking... considering some people have no idea where Canada is on a world map.

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      1. 81

         earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         America has a big population, but the same happens in every country. Radical, ignorant as bat droppings and 100 percent sure they are right!
         They get their information from shock-jocks.
         
         Australian humour can be pretty in yer face.
         We had a TV series here that continuously interviewed people in the streets of our cities that showed the same ignorance then they did the same in America, asking questions like "Where is the Eiffel Tower?" Where is Australia? And yes, even where is Canada.
         The results were a first class comedy, all provided by the answers. Some were hilarious, all were funny.
         We also had a send up of CNN called CNNNN. I need to find it again, it was funny as hell!

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            Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I wonder how many people knew the answers to those questions before they found (or paid) someone to actually act that stupid?
            
            You see, that's how its done.

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               Doug Hughesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               So who pays you?

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               Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Nah...There are genuine stupid people out there. There's no pretense in some of the stupid comments you read right here. ADMIT IT!

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      valeriebelewposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I am so sick of hearing people trash the president.  I support healthcare reform, and most else he is doing.  Healthcare reform couldn't possibly make a bigger mess than big insurance has done.  Everyone pays more, and gets less coverage.  They complain; then try to block change.  I don't consider myself a socialist, but I am tired of a few people at the top living the high life while telling us what they will cover medically, after we've paid the highest insurance premiums in history, and what they won't cover.  They need to be as concerned about the health of their customers as they are in earning big profits at our expense.  I say regulate them, then do it again.  Let them live without medical care and see how it feels.

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      1. 61

         Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I would say the insurance industry is the most regulated industry in this country, but pretty soon you wont have to worry about those bad people running the insurance companies, this bill will drive them out of business to be replaced by the same group that gave us the IRS!

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            Doug Hughesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Can you reconcile the 'most regulated' claim with  the anti-trust exemption that allows them to legally engage in price-fixing?

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         cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         why do the HaveNots want to punish the Haves? people didn't just wake up one day all wealthy. many people started with nothing and worked their a$$es off to get where they are today, myself included, and i did it without asking anybody, including the government, for money. i save my money so that i have something to fall back on in hard times. i have been without, and i DO know what it feels like.

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            Phoebe Pikeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I think what he was actually referring to was those who have never done a real days' work in all of their life. I don't think the wealthy should be punished, but I do believe we need to really think how things are done. For example; the trickle down theory. Give tax breaks to the wealthy and hope they spend it so the poor can have jobs to provide them with the goods and/or services they want, or so the theory goes. Personally, I have noticed that when the rich get tax breaks, they invest it or save it and try not to spend it... but that's only what I have personally seen, and I have not been in too many circles of wealthy people, though my school had a great number of the more privileged "trust fund babies", as they called themselves.

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         west40posted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Well said - I am against "status quo" in the case of Health Care Reform.

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      4. 84

         kerrygposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Hear, hear. I wasn't thrilled by the bill, but there are some very important provisions included in it that I WAS thrilled to see, especially the end of the despicable practice of rescission, so I'm looking at it as a first step that will hopefully lead eventually to a public option or even *GASP* single-payer in the future.

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   earnestshubposted 14 years ago

   Maybe we should ask the anti Obama zealots questions like "Where is England?" and if they have to google it ya know who you're dealing with!

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      foreignpressposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      England is a protectorate of Australia. As such, the English are subjects of Australia. Which is how it should be. Pardon my inebriated state. I've just consumed several Foster's.

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         AdsenseStrategiesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I'm pretty sure England is a protectorate of Scotland

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            Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            On this subject; Was Australia originally a Penal Colony of England?

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      Arthur Fontesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Or we could ask Obama supporters who is responsible for their health wealth and well being.
      
      If they answer the guberment well you know.

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         Kenrick Chatmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I am responsible for my health care. I signed up for the best plan available from my employer and participate in routine checkups and healthy living.
         
         When I was a college and graduate student I signed up for independent health insurance to ensure I always had coverage.

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            Arthur Fontesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I am happy you believe in personal responsibility.
            
            There is always common ground.

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4. 60

   Doug Hughesposted 14 years ago

   Gawd, I can't tell you how I love it when some one introduces objective facts to a discussion. I wish I could point a HUB spotlight on this forum - read the article and make note of the SOURCE!

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   Pr0metheusposted 14 years ago

   God you people can be blind.  Stop bickering!  Republicans and Democrats are the same thing.  Wake up!  Do some research...
   
   Revolution will be snubbed, they have concentration camps for that.

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   1. 84

      kerrygposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I think the author of the article I linked would agree with you. I disagree to the extent that Democrats do represent my personal convictions better than Republicans, but that doesn't mean I don't vote for them holding my nose. (When I do at all - I've voted for third party candidates more often than not, just on general principle. I live in such a conservative area that 2008 was the first year any of my votes made the remotest difference anyway. )

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   knolyourselfposted 13 years ago

   "That's strange, Free-marketeers hate it, and so do Socialists." Maybe - but who loves it is the private medical conglomerates and the drug industry. Mandated by law to buy their products. Can't beat that. If any tears - crocodile. Socialist health care is that found almost anywhere in the world but number 1. Totalitarian health-care.

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      Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      don't blame the companies for asking for money,
      
      Blame the government for giving it to them.

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