Are you pro drug war?

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consciencealertposted 13 years ago
By being pro drug war you

-impose heavy cost on the population to protect people from their own choices

-help create a great incentive for government to take away more of our civil liberties. Agreeing government should be violently involved in peoples personal habits.

-advocate using lethal force to imprison nonviolent people into a violent prison system making their lives worse than drugs themselves ever could. (So you think being stupid is a reason to go to jail)

-help the drug cartels stay in power having a monopoly over drugs

-cannot come to the understanding that the drug war has and will never be successful.

-Should consider whether you think alcoholics should be imprisoned. If not then why? Think critically.

-the U.S. has spent hundreds of billions on this. Will you support it when it costs trillions?

-was there more violence when drugs were legal or now when they are illegal?
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sure!
  It can never be won but:
  The drug war creates jobs.
  It keeps alota people working.
  It's good for the economy.
  Qwark
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  qwark
  
  How dose 25% of the prisons in the world in which are in USA, good for American economy or good for our overall health?
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Castle:
  
  I forgot are you a native American? ( I don't mean an Indian)
  
  Maybe I should ask: is English your native language.
  
  If not I'll give ya some slack.
  
  This comment wouldn't pass a 3rd grade teachers scrutiny:
  
  "How dose 25% of the prisons in the world in which are in USA, good for American economy or good for our overall health?"
  
  I don't know what to make of it.
  
  If ya want to re-phrase and re-word it, so that it makes sense, I'd be glad to respond to it.
  
  OK?
  
  Qwark
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Part Native American, I think my English is getting a little better, still sometimes too vague.
  
  Ok
  
  USA is only 4% of the world's population; they hold 25% of the World’s prisons and half of the World's war budget. About 2/3th of the narcotics busts are for cannabis, a flower for God sake or for any sake. America has lost the war in Viet Nam and they have lost the war on drugs
  Portugal legalized all drug in small amounts, all crime and in all areas drugs used has dropped
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  TY CAstle :
  
  Until we humans mature and stop acting in so many ways to rush our journey to possible extinction, the use of drugs will not cease nor will gov'ts be able to stop it.
  
  The illegal drug business involves multi-billions of dollars.
  
  The war against it costs multi-billions of dollars and ruins many lives...no doubt about that, but it also employs a huge number of people.
  
  The drug war is a fact of life and until we humans get our heads on straight, money is being made and lost on both sides.
  
  Win or lose the drug was is big business and it cannot be won.
  
  That's a reality of life.
  
  Qwark
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  AAAAAAAAAAA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
  
  ... oh wait, you're f-ing serious?
  
  You need to read "the broken window" by Frederick Bastiat.
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  Texasbetaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Dude, you really have to get into the modern world.
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You're right, anything written before 100 years ago should be abandoned.
  
  "The Origin of Species", "the laws of thermodynamics", "Newton's laws of motion"... they should just be thrown out.
  
  .... "the constitution"
  
  ... "the declaration of independence"...
  
  ... the bible....
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What is your suggestion? Legalizing all drugs?
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Pharmacological drugs too? Because if you legalize heroin and cocaine, then what's the need for us to have everything else protected by the FDA?
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  They legalized all small amounts of drugs in Portugal and it worked out well
  
  To me here, just cannabis
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ok. I was going to say... I think legalizing everything would be a bad thing. But weed? I think it should be legalized.
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  days leaperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "By being pro drug war you-impose heavy cost on the population to protect people from their own choices-help create a great incentive for government to take away more of our civil liberties."
  Your civil liberties! Have you thought of other peoples Civil liberties??? People who don't want to be subject to anything from mindless comments on the street to acts of aggression and physical violence. Unlike alcohol where the effects of stupidity etc. are said to wear off relatively quickly (to a point). With illegalised substances the effects are more severely degrading, lasting even when the user has come down from the primary high. And the person becomes more and more and remains permanantly open to negative influences etc. So many a persons Civil Liberties are spared, again with alcohol people know not to go out at certain times in the evenning, weekend etc. With drugs there would be no known safe time to go out.
  You doubt perhaps, only yesterday I got a strange comment from a rude neighbour just for passing him on the street, I hadn't even seen him as he was looking out of his window: For some reason he saw fit to politely attract my attention before making a rude and personal comment -And I'd never seen him before but there is a known drug problem on the street. Now costs of drugs are high therefore use is less, that to me justifies keeping it illegal!
  
  "Agreeing government should be violently involved in peoples personal habits. -"
  I'm not sure I know what you mean here. The Police have hoops to jump through in making sure that they don't over step certain guidelines. And are limited with what they can do and to use measured violence only when necessary -when no other course off action has .would work. And Yes, I agree to that much. Avoid if possible but reserve the right in getting this stuff off the streets and reduce other crimes. If 'you' can't supply it no-one who wants it but can't afford needs to bother stealing.
  
  "advocate using lethal force to imprison nonviolent people into a violent prison system making their lives worse than drugs themselves ever could. (So you think being stupid is a reason to go to jail)"
  This accusation is quite similar to the one prior, therefore see above. As for "non-violent"... Sorry, ...some maybe. But a hatred of the upholding of law is contrary to the constitutions of non-violent behaviour. See later answers; rarely is any-one fully non-violent. Let alone some-one who has decided to disobey all guidelines to do just what they themselves want to do.
  
  "-help the drug cartels stay in power having a monopoly over drugs-cannot come to the understanding that the drug war has and will never be successful."
  First, I can agree about the monopoly to violent criminals. And the law is never any use in preventing crime among those hell bent on carrying it out. It does serve as a guide though for people who want to know what is acceptable and as a basis that the research is there.
  Whether legal or not, it could end up that the same people are running the show. Many would not agree to be taxed, licenced etc. And so this is some kind of impossible dream. The cartels role would change to selling more to the shop rather than individuals. So they would still be in all that power. And there would be absolutely no guarantee that illegalities wouldn't still occur. It would in fact be worse as such people would be given a green light, something to hide behind as though they were "decent, upstanding LAW ABIDING citezens".
  As far as the propaganda about "the drug war has and never will be successful". Never complete, perhaps. An ending, no. Successes and failures along the way, Yes. True however of any war whether it ends or not.
  
  "-Should consider whether you think alcoholics should be imprisoned. If not then why?"
  I personally have no sympathy for drunks either. for eg. My Dad worked hard during the day depending on the point in time as a car mechanic then fish and chip range fitter. He seems to not have any savings as he basically worked to drink, and while I am pleased he isn't a criminal. He could have made something of his life going by his Mathematical aptitude. So the moral of the story is any drug wastes lives!
  Secondly alcoholics do get imprisioned. Have you not heard of the law against being Drunk and Disorderly, Drink driving offensses are widespread. And Negligence due to drink charges etc., etc.
  
  "Think critically.-the U.S. has spent hundreds of billions on this. Will you support it when it costs trillions?"
  All wars have costs. If the only way to warn people effectively of the dangers -without necessarily agreeing to method/s- is to spend a 'googooplex' and in that time there are some significant successes then who is going to listen to a pro drugs campaigner (if I may say that) who is in effect making his/her own war and therefore pursuing a war to end a war -(wrote this way for humerous perplexation)- which benefits themselves hence promotes victory for one side. I think a win-win aim is perhaps best. I've seen some good arguments around that vaguely relate to what goes on in the home and stays in the home -so long as it does not lead to harming the vulnerable in any way. On the other hand whose to say it won't. And in my personal experience those that did find access to it, were invariably into crime enthusiastically and for the 'thrill' rather than due to poverty!
  
  "-was there more violence when drugs were legal or now when they are illegal?"
  In The UK drugs are classified, I won't list them all here; But Heroin is class A. being deadly, I know some-one who died due to OD... There's A, B, and C. for the illegal stuff. And the punishments are graded accordingly and C has certain "legal" -I can't really say that but there are instances where the police will turn a blind eye; to a point, except to try to make sure the position isn't being taken advantage of. Some prescribable drugs are allowed in the home but not out of packet, bag etc. on the street obviously to allow a person to get home from the chemist. This I think is a good system because with this there are alternatives to prision such as "electronic tagging", "community service", they sometimes try to re-educate young offenders in some circumstances where drug habbits occurred through mis-guidance, neglect and escaping abuse/s etc.
  When they tried to declassify Cannabis from Class B down to class C. They eventually had to put it back up due to increased crime and more anti social behaviour etc. So in answer to this last question. Yes!
  
  In conclusion I suspect that the pro drug lobby is merely trying to make it's life easier with little or no regard to the consequences on other members of society. I would though have the law give doctors licence to help those who want to come off; and hope the nation/s rulers will provide "cold-turkey hospitals" as this is the only method that works -if done properly.
  This is my last word. Thank You for an interesting forum discussion.
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  safiq ali patelposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Drugs and booze are not without problems. But I am not sure waging a war on these is the right thing to do. Alcohol is freely available in many nations and so too are drugs. I think education on safe use, education on the dangers do a lot to manage drug and booze related crisis. The devestating impact of drug use can be lessened if we learn the lessons of drug use and misuse in out age. Lets face it drugs and booze are as old as the planets and the stars and the earth. Hard line measure will not change that through every age since the very begining some people have used drugs. Remove dangers, make safter, and discorage use where ever possible. Removing drugs 100% will not change every problem on the planet.
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knolyourselfposted 13 years ago
Downer drugs tend to make people anti-productive and anti-progressive.
I have asked cocaine users how they could afford the drug. Said you have to be a dealer.
Illegal drugs are a way for a small group of people to control certain elements of a larger population.
Some say that US railroads were built and acquired and major eastern universities were
built from drug profits made in China.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We are a drug oriented society, but, the drug of choice interferes w/ the corporate bottom line. Coffee, cigarettes, alcohol, ritalin, some to make you happy, some to make you not-so-happy. Your Dr. has committed himself to dispense this drug or that drug, aligned to the Pfizers or to one of their competitors. Energy drinks and viagra, one pill makes you larger, another pill makes you small. Pills for this, pills for that. Pick a weed from the harvest of nature, or eat a mushroom, and it's off to the exercise yard.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You’re only looking for pro drug war and one side interest
  
  I think wars are insane, mainly this one for 74 years and it ruins families lives than any other war.
  
  Since my vote will not count in the balanced here and in many of your lives, I'm off
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Moderndayslaveposted 13 years ago
The Government hates competition:http://www.ibiblio.org/prism/sep97/smokescreen.html
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Muldanianmanposted 13 years ago
It depends what kind of drugs. There is a case for pot to be made legal, at least on prescription for certain conditions, especially the terminally ill, for whom no pain killer works. However, the harder drugs destroy lives, whilst making dealers rich. Of course the government should come down hard on such people, who don't care what harm their drugs are having on addicts. On the other hand there are many legal prescription drugs which do equal damage, yet are prescribed like sweets by doctors.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Muldanian:
  
  I'm for the de-criminalization of pot...and I'm for the selling and taxing of it.
  
  Qwark
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  Julie2posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It should be sold in a carton like cigarettes. What type of logo would they use on the package, aside from the regular leaves pic?. Bet it would be something funny too.
  
  No I'm not high!
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ..the logo should be that little avatar that is laying on the floor laughing its ass off! (lotfliao!)
  
  Qwark
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  Julie2posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  AHAHA, good one!
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ha ha ha
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  Amanda Severnposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Cannabis helps lots of auto-immune conditions as well. MS and Crohns Disease are just two examples. This site has good info.
  
  http://cureuk.podomatic.com/
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Evan G Rogersposted 13 years ago
Because we have illegal drugs, the children in Mexico have to have "Shoot-out Drills" at their schools.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCYRKd1Oob8
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  Moderndayslaveposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Shouldn't that be Because we have drug Addicts?
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well that's a nonsense argument. I've never seen cigarette producers get into shoot outs with their competition even though they have "addicts" as customers.
  
  And the only time alcohol producers started killing one another was when the US outlawed it.
  
  It's pretty much obvious that if drugs were legal:
  
  *they'd be supplied in a safe way
  *they'd be cheaper
  *they'd be of more consistent quality
  *The suppliers would be allowed to rely on the available property-rights enforcing system in place (instead of relying on their own purchase of guns and murdering one another).
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I know there are enough people in Canada that are for Cannabis, to lock up many of the politician for crimes against the people and nature
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  Moderndayslaveposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sure that this has something to do with the shootouts;
  http://leaksource.wordpress.com/2011/04 … g-cartels/
  If only the coke,heroin,ecstasy and meth were legal we'd be so much better off right ?. Should pot be decriminalized ,yes but the rest I don't think so. Keeping our southern border closed is something our government is simply not willing to do.I actually just finished working at a hospital and got to witness the Kool-Aide parade on a daily basis.Getting their daily dose of methadone that is.How many drug addicts do you actually know anyway ?
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Making illegal things that people want does nothing but force the producers to pay for their own system of protection.
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  Moderndayslaveposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What?,,,,Stay on point please,,, What would you do about the actual drugs and the system to provide them and then clean up the mess after the weakest could not help themselves but to destroy their life in their quest to self medicate themselves to happiness?
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Somebody once made the comment, half jokingly I think, legalise drugs and the sight of middle aged men shambling around in cardigans and slippers, smacked out of their heads would very quickly make drugs so uncool that there would not be a problem.
  
  You know that many drugs are pretty safe, it's the adulterants that screw you up. That's why wealthier users like Lou Reed and Keith Richard can use for forty years or so.
  
  Legalising them would never work entirely. Faced with the choice of going to the chemist to pick up your drugs legally or doing sleazy backstreet deals there would be plenty who would always take the second option.
  
  All pretty pointless really, legitimate business relies so much on drug money that it has to stay illegal. Estimated that in 1993 £2.3 billion of drug related money went through the City of London. A similar amount went through Wall Street.
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How is "talking about what would happen if drugs were made legal" off topic in a discussion about "making drugs illegal"?
  
  ... wow.
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  Moderndayslaveposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Making illegal things that people want does nothing but force the producers to pay for their own system of protection." Was you"re comment" What like Slomins or ADT? or it's OK to kill if you distribute stuff people want?
  I was talking about the human element as in ,What would you do about the mess created when the drugs were decriminalized?
  Junkies stealing for a fix,,,Legal or not.People losing their jobs or homes to pay for that next high.
  I'll ask again,How many dependent drug users do you know??
  I have known many. The heroin and cocaine were the worst off.Potheads get cranky when the can't cop so that would get fixed by decriminalization and alcoholic's make a big mess when they get rolling.
  This is a ATF related link by the way: Alcohol/Tobacco/Firearms
  
  http://leaksource.wordpress.com/2011/04 … g-cartels/
  Maybe if we didn't furnish so many guns other people wouldn't have so much to worry about.
  
  ...WOW...
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You have yet to provide a counterpoint to my argument.
  
  you merely said "I know drug addicts, thus I'm right".
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  Moderndayslaveposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ah no ,,,,enough with the circle jerk....
  Title of thread "Are you pro drug war"?
  My current understanding of your position, No you are not, decriminalize everything things will be safer. I am not countering your argument I am asking a separate but definitely related question.
  I also posted a link showing our own ATF is suppyling guns to druglords
  My question to you or my position:
  What do you plan to do with the human wreckage that will occur resulting from decriminalization or end of war on drugs? This is the question I am asking and I don't think you have answer?.......
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You showed a video of the ATF providing weapons to the drug lords. This COMPLETELY bolsters my argument in every way. Get the government out of the drug trade completely, and we won't be wasting our money giving guns to drug lords.
  
  "the human wreckage" -- if you recall, I completely deny that there will as much "human wreckage" if drugs become legal. My argument was that people will NOT start smoking/injecting just because it's legal.
  
  So, I have already answered your questions, but you apparently think I'm "circle jerking" you. (Do you know what a circle jerk is?)
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not only that, but the non-psychoactive by-products are also useful. If farmers could grow the stuff legally, they might be able to earn bigger profits.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  For sure
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psycheskinnerposted 13 years ago
Go forbid we should take a moderate position that drugs should be only as available as is generally good for society. You know, somewhere between grass is a gateway drug to Satanism and hell, lets start a meth lab slash kindergarten?
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SandyMcCollumposted 13 years ago
I think it should be a rule that the heads of countries should use marijuana. There would be no wars because they'd be sharing bowls and munchies and waiting until tomorrow to fight.
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Ralph Deedsposted 13 years ago
The drug war doesn't seem to be working very well. Too much emphasis on incarceration, too little on treatment. I'm not sure the electorate is ready for complete legalization, but a change in emphasis is long overdue. We are wasting too many lives and too much money on putting people into jail for minor drug violations. In Michigan there is great confusion over the new medical marijuana law. In many jurisdictions the police continue to raid growers and dispensaries.
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  Texasbetaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  They made for-profit prisons since the war began...the prison lobby is the #3 largest in the country. Incentives...what is the incentive? To incarcerate so they can pocket the tax subsidies.
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I would like to point out that the issue here is simply the same issue as all types of lobbying:
  
  A bunch of kids (companies) crying to their parents (the government) in a grocery store for candy (bailouts, etc). The parents cave in, and buy the candy for them -- despite it being illegal (Article 1 Section 8 + the 10th amendment).
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Reality Bytesposted 13 years ago
Criminalization of drugs goes against the Law of Nature that a human being holds their own body as property.

Who owns your body?

If you feel that in fact "YOU" own your own body, then how could there be crimes against what a human being decides to ingest into their own body?
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's right. Further, every herb bearing seed was our first birthday gift. Besides, it is fairly well ingrained. Speaking of the more natural highs, of course. One of the principle reasons we had to come down from the trees. Ever try sitting in trees when you're really toasted? It wasn't the fall that hurt...it was the sudden stop.
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wildernessposted 13 years ago
Have you ever had a child become a crack head? Or a meth addict? Watched as their school or job performance deteriorated to nothing and their life became a wasteland of drugs? Had them steal TV's, DVD players or laptops from you to pawn for their drugs? Found your bank account empty of the grocery money to feed your other children because they stole blank checks and forged them to supply their habit? Watched as their face and body turned into a nightmare of sores from a horror movie?

Have you ever had a co-worker, maybe in an inherently dangerous job where your own life depended on their actions, begin shooting up at lunch break? Looked on as a good kid was fired, went to rehab, came back to work only to last a few weeks before they fell off the wagon and was fired again?

Have you ever watched as car after car entered your neighborhood, occupants checking every other car within a block for something they can steal to buy their junk from your neighbor? Have you wondered how long it would be before they broke into your own house when only your spouse and children are home for $10 worth of whatever they can find and heaven help anyone in their way?

Are you under any illusions that legalizing hard drugs will change this behavior? A crack head doesn't care if it's legal or not, or how much it costs. He/she doesn't care what it does to them or those around them. Only that they have it. These things are not the exception - they are all too often the norm for a hard drug user.

No, lets not let up on the drug war. Change it (it isn't working) yes, but not let up for even one minute.
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  Disturbiaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Unfortunately, the war on drugs doesn't seem to be doing much to prevent the things you are describing.
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  wildernessposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No it does not. That's why it needs changed, but not dropped and not simply ended by making every toxic substance legal to sell.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What neighbor do you live in, not much of that goes on in mine, try turning off the news.
  
  About 2/3 of the narcotic bust are cannabis, sure keep the law on the hard drugs not soft drugs.
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  wildernessposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The neighborhood I refer to was one of my co-workers. A blue collar middle class place. Nothing special except it had a dealer living in it. Not from the news; I've watched out his front window as they go down the street, testing the door lock on each car parked there.
  
  I've also had a friend face a clean up bill more than his home was worth when a meth manufacturer next door dumped chemicals on my friends property. He lived 1/4 mile from me in a gated community with roving guards 24/7.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It’s easier for the cops to caught the cannabis smell and their hydro bills and not as hard core ugly people as meth
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  wildernessposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah - it gets a little stupid sometimes. As the president of that gated community at around that time I got reports from the guards. It was interesting that one resident would inform the guards that he was going to Florida for a week and to please watch his house for him (not an unusual request there). When he returned he would get a steady stream of visitors every few minutes for a couple of days with no one staying more than a few minutes then nothing. Until the next month when it would all repeat.
  
  It's not hard to figure out, not when you live in a secluded community 2 miles from the main drug pathway (I-95) from Miami north. We told the cops and provided records, but it took them over a year with a stakeout before they would move. WTF??? A year of drug dealing in OUR neighborhood of kids??? Forget the guy lighting up a joint or growing a funny plant and get rid of the hard dealers!
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Their many cannabis stores to show you how to grow pot except as soon as you put one cannabis seed into soil; you have committed a serious crime,
  
  In these tough economic times, planting one cannabis plant is worth $2000 tand hat makes this game, the greatest cat and mouse game in the history of the world
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  zenbearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The war on drugs is actually a war on drug users...on mostly otherwise law abiding citizens. It seems to me that the issue is about crime which results from making certain drugs illicit and thereby creating a very profitable black market system...complete with complicit bankers who launder the money, law enforcement that particpates in protecting and profiting by the business, an entire department of justice industry that depends on incarcerating more people than any other country in the world...including all those so called human rights wiolators like China and North Korea.
  
  If the laws were for the purpose of health and safety, I'd have no argument, but they obviously aren't. The "legal" drugs kill around a half million people a year, and alcohol and nicotine are the most toxic and deadly drugs of all. Not so many...not even close....die from all the illicit drugs combined. Mostly, their lives are ruined by being sent to prisons where they learn how to be REAL criminals, and often aren't even able to secure a legitimate job because of their "criminal record."
  
  The war on drugs is a profit making endeavor that benefits the cartels, the government, the law enforcement empire, the tobacco and alcohol industries, the bankers, etc. etc. If it were all legalized, regulated by government (for purity), licensed and taxed (like tobacco and alcohol), there wouldn't be enough profit to attract criminal enterprises. There would, however, be ample funding for treatment on demand, clean needle exchanges and even paying down some of our national debt. Portugal has pretty much proven that legalizing the drugs doesn't increase the overall usage, but surely does eliminate most of the crime.
  
  Personally, I'd much prefer living next door to a bunch of potheads than alcoholics. I don't expect much from corrupt government and ignorant people who believe the scare tactics, but I just wish we could somehow exhibit some integrity: either make them illegal based on their intrinsic dangers to health and safety....or make them all legal. And btw, I've been involved with treating drug addicts for a few decades, and I have never heard of anyone dying from the effects of smoking marijuana (and they usually drive very slowly and carefully, so have far less motor vehicle accidents than the alcoholics).
  
  What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Let free all the non violent drug offenders and make room for crooked bankers, brokers, politicians and lawyers. Then maybe we can start working on the large corporations that spread their waste toxins all over the countryside, poisening entire communities.
  
  Methinks we need to get our priorities straight.
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, sure, babies becoming addicted to drugs is a sad thing. no one's arguing against that.
  
  But you act like "making drugs illegal" has some how prevented this.
  
  That's UTTER nonsense. If anything, it has simply made the consequences of doing drugs more severe.
  
  "I want to get help, but if I go, i'll be arrested and will never be able to get a job"
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  wildernessposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If I thought that "making drugs illegal" had prevented addicted children I wouldn't have posted the wonderful things I have experienced. While the war on drugs has probably helped some it hasn't helped enough, not by millions of addicts. At the same time I guarantee, with absolutely no doubt, that making hard drugs legal will result in additional addicts.
  
  What I also posted is that the current war isn't working and needs changed. Maybe expand the "Just say no". Maybe bombard children (brainwash them) into understanding that trying to live in a different reality is foolish and for losers. Maybe simply shoot every dealer we can find. I don't know, but to give up and make them legal is NOT the answer. Fewer and fewer children ever smoke cigarettes - how was that accomplished? Can we pull some answers to drug abuse from the anti-smoking campaign?
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The more unattractive you try to make something for some people you make it more attractive for others.
  
  You make them legal and they instantly lose their appeal for many, you also make the drugs safer, unless of course you think business would continue to cut them with strychnine and the like.
  You also ensure that the drugs are of a consistent and known strength, thus avoiding the death toll that results when a particularly pure batch hits the streets.
  
  But the bankers would lose money if drugs were legalised.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ""I want to get help, but if I go, i'll be arrested and will never be able to get a job""
  
  Yup. Drive it underground, where someone who needs help overcoming his addiction can't get it (because he'll be prosecuted), someone whose dealer sells him a tainted product and poisons him can't complain to the law (because he'll be prosecuted, too), someone whose dealer robs him can't complain to the law, etc etc etc.
  
  If the stuff was legal for informed, competent, consenting adults to buy and use (but said adults would still face consequences of any illegal acts performed while under the influence), it'd save the country so much money and grief. But we're too darned stubborn to change the law.
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm glad you agree! We seem to be doing that a lot lately!
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C.J. Wrightposted 13 years ago
War On Drugs = Waste Of Dollars.
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manofthewillposted 13 years ago
War on drugs = 1 USD
War for drugs = 1000 USD
TOTAL= 999 USD
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  manofthewill
  
  What dose that mean?
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  yeah... that...
  
  that kind of didn't make any sense.
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Stevennix2001posted 13 years ago
only if the police try to catch the real drug lords selling the drugs rather than just going after the guy that buys the drugs. However, I know that's not going to happen, as most cops aren't going to risk starting a war within the United States with some of the world's most powerful drug lords and Mafia over it. If it were up to me, I'd probably just legalize all illegal drugs, as it's a lot more easier to monitor and control once something is legalize. Plus, if you legalize illegal drugs, then you're basically reducing organized crime too, since it would cut into their business, and it could possibly help create more jobs too legally that is.

Not only that, but it would allow states to be able to tax said drugs as well, so it could help out the economy in the long run. After all according to Forbes Magazine, one of the richest people in the world is a Columbian drug lord, so you know there's money in those drugs. Therefore, it only makes sense to legalize it, so we can tax it here in the states. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there won't be problems involved, nor am I saying that it'll solve all our problems. However, I do believe that it would do more good for our society than bad.
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
This is one of the most ill informed pile of misleading and downright dishonest rubbish I have seen since "reefer madness"
If you want to know about drugs, ask someone who actually knows something about them and the people who use them.

The two biggest destroyers of life statistically are alcohol (a fifth rate depressant according to Margolis) and prescription medicines.

If you actually want to know about drugs instead of displaying your ignorance I can point you to the University studies and double blinds.
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  days leaperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "This is one of the most ill informed pile of misleading and downright dishonest rubbish I have seen since..."
  Thanks for the advance warning here, and yes. You have once again managed to mislead-
  
  "If you want to know about drugs, ask someone who actually knows something about them[b]and the people who use them."
  [/b -only the latter will get you a lot of one sided nonesense and short term plusses; ever heard a drug user, dealer, pusher, etc. ever mention the term "having a white one", or having a bad trip. This I've seen. What is more it could have been a "code red" (so to speak -that is to say spiked; though this is slightly speculative according to what went on there) because the user had allowed some-one a free try but did not manage to get them hooked. Basically, either way it shows that this is a dangerous and murky cesspit world, best avoided.
  
  "The two biggest destroyers of life statistically are alcohol (a fifth rate depressant according to Margolis) and prescription medicines."
  People manipulate statistics all the time. Doctors in Post Mortems have been known nnot to list everything. Like when some-one dies with aids, they have listed all the things that they'd got as a consequence without mentioning that 'mere' fact.
  
  "If you actually want to know about drugs instead of displaying your ignorance I can point you to the University studies and double blinds."
  Even Breweries have picked up that statistics can be manipulated, and frequently talk of ingredients like Hops etc. as being a reason that a drink culture must be good for you. Unfortunately, unsuspecting people take this as true not realising the full story that alcohol and beer making processes take out most of the goodness of these foods, and alcohol prevents the rest from being digested properly.
  And if you want a reference, though I'm not from Harvard so my order. And this is not a University so don't expect it that often. But here "Foods that Harm, foods that Heal", Readers Digest for the bit about alcohol only.
  
  As far as calling others ignorant just because they have made a different opinion from yours; this is perhaps best left to places behind trailers where the bins are kept, you might wish to disguss this with the filth that is about round there when you hallucinate it to be a talking Dog that claims to be your leader or something. Though no doubt it will say whatever you want to hear -And then you'll like it, and of course everything it says will be right, and you'll know everything without needing to check -won't you -Yeah Ma-an!
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Mark Ewbieposted 13 years ago
Prohibition didn't work for alchohol. I suspect that any major drugs baron would be actively lobbying the government with their billions of profits to maintain the status quo - keep the price up and keep the control of drug supply in the hands of the criminals.

Also good for the government enforcement agencies as well, all those funds channelled into fighting the war.

So a lot of vested shady criminal interests on both sides - criminals AND governments - keeping up the pretence.

Move the supply of drugs from the criminals to registered outlets. Tax them and use the taxes (not YOUR current taxes) to inform, maintain quality (for safety reasons), and fund rehab.

It's bleeding obvious.

Oh yeah. I know of what I speak... now reformed. I don't like drugs, I don't want children to take them, etc. But wanting it doesn't make it happen.

The current po faced hypocritical and frankly ludicrous nonsense makes no sense.
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
The fastest most effective way to get kids to take drugs is to lie to them about it.
Tell them marijuana will kill them and they will go online and learn about it. Then when they know you lied, they will assume you lied about all the hard stuff as well.

Personally I believe those who want to take drugs will. Banning them makes them much more attractive.
If you allowed ALL drugs to be completely decriminalised I would bet drug use would soon drop like a stone.

Some will still get addicted, but they would have anyway, so then non guilt inducing assistance should prevail
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  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We agree for once!
  
  Legalising all drugs is good in that:
  
  A. Governments legally collect the tax revenue generated. (as opposed to getting it by the back-door and encouraging corruption)
  
  B. The CIA would need to find a new way of financing covert 'unauthorised' ops.
  
  C. It's self regulating, those who misused the 'product' would die.
  
  D. Quality control would be maintained and users would know which strength they were comfortable with. (Mine would be 'Old Hippy' black)
  
  E. The prison population would drop overnight, and our youngsters would stop being buggered and abused for possessing small quantities of relatively harmless drugs.
  
  F. Alcohol sales would drop exponentially to recreational drug increase.
  
  G. Prohibition has NEVER worked anyway.
  
  H. Criminals would lose interest in smuggling it into our countries.
  
  I. The Police could spend their time actually chasing criminals.
  
  Guess you could say I am pro decriminalisation!
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  aguasilver
  We agree for once!
  Legalizing all drugs is good in that:
  
  You agreed with earnest only once, my rate for agreeing with the worst kind block heads is much higher than that, I wonder how many people think I'm a block head
  
  I would only start with legalizing cannabis in which is 2/3th of the arrests are about cannabis, it’s illegal in every country in the world. The other much harder drugs, we can control until each drug is proven much safer
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  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually in Spain it is legal to grow two plants per year for each family member, but illegal to sell it of course.
  
  Generally (in Spain) one could smoke openly without much fear of anything other than a policeman taking your 'stash' if it was more than 28 gr (1 ounce)..... guess they enjoyed their beach parties!
  
  In Holland it is legal to smoke hash, in appointed cafes, but illegal to smoke tobacco in the same place, hence they have a whole lot of totally stoned people since they can no longer mix hash with tobacco!
  
  The laws are crazy, but we seem to have bred a society of younger folk who are brainwashed into believing the propaganda, and even supporting it!
  
  Where I am currently, it's totally illegal, and Malaysia hangs drug smugglers, so it's in short supply, but no sweat, as it's illegal I refrain from even looking for a smoke!
  
  But I hope to visit Spain in July....
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Tobacco kills more people than all narcotics combine and it's legal in every country in the world and cannabis has not killed one person in the history of the world
  
  There is more death penalties for homosexual act in the world’s countries than for Cannabis. So it's even worst being caught with a joint in your mouth, if it’s a guy.
  
  Kind of all ass backwards
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  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If one were a homosexual guy, I think it not would be a joint in the mouth that would get you killed....
  
  What is needeed is for every hash smoker to attend their local police station at 12 noon one Friday and light up in the Police station.
  
  The system would break down instantly!
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I should give notice I am not gay, in case some women are out there like what they see. I think gays get more physically beat up around the world than atheist or pot smoker from the public. It he Police Politician and Army have been well brainwash to be against cannabis for more reason of the greedy Rich in control, like greedy rich vs., nature
  
  Well it’s great!!! being a person with free mind
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think that is a great idea! Ring the press! Get it happening!
  In Australia not many give a hoot!
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  I am DB Cooperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This is why the D.A.R.E. program doesn't work. If you tell kids that a lot of people are using drugs but they shouldn't, of course they're going to want to try drugs. "Just say no" goes against everything we know about how a child's mind works. It gets worse when the children find out the D.A.R.E. officer exaggerated the effects of drugs or just outright lied to them. "Oh, so there's no way his buddy in high school OD'd after smoking a joint? Well then, what else was he lying about?"
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well stated DB.
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John Holdenposted 13 years ago
Days leaper said-
"Heroin is class A. being deadly, I know some-one who died due to OD."

And keeping drugs illegal will maintain those deaths which are caused by inconsistent strength of doses and poisonous adulterants.

In short heroin is not as deadly as nicotine or alcohol, it doesn't change the body in any way, doesn't cause cancer or weight gain.
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  Absent Friendposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  doctors are allowed to prescribe methodone for those who want to come off, and there is a strong painkiller whose name i forget, but it can be adictive based on cocaine.
  Still cold turkey is the only true way out. And if it is infrequent and unregulated doses causing deaths why be so stuborn and so irresponsible as to take it anyway -knowing that! -It shows a deviant nature, and looks like the whole school of pro drugs is of the same mind and cannot be trusted so I'm no longer going to waste my time here.
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I never said it was infrequent and unregulated doses!
  
  The doses are unregulated because there is no control over what and how much the drug is cut with, frequent users are much more likely to be caught out than irregular users.
  
  Anyway, glad to hear that you aren't going to waste any more time here.
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  Mark Ewbieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well friend, for fifty years that attitude has been tried... and failed. Perhaps it's time to try another way.
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  days leaperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. Making them all go cold turkey would be much more effective.
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sick.
  Have you ever seen cold turkey?
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  days leaperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If done properly under medical supervision, it's not as bad as all that. And a person released from the hold these obnoxious, danderous, etc. substances have. To be made free of the false highs, the stigma of being hooked to having to cling to these deadly poisions -and that's all they are really -yes. including smoke and alcohol etc. The saying all is well that ends well, might have some value.
  Just thing. To be free of such a crutch, money draining, time consuming, mindset altering.
  I would have more respect for some-one who went through cold turkey successfully than any amount of those soldiers that took on a two bit Iraqy "force". So, to say "Sick", yes, people are sick, it hurts, no gain without pain. Many will see they got themselves in a mess, and while there exists people that are willing to help break free the cycle; still these people can't take away all a persons suffering. We all suffer things life throws at us, good and bad people suffer, but taking drugs won't make it any easier in the long run, nor will any form of denial or long term escapism.
  Good Luck any of you out there who wish to be free from the hold any drug will claim on you and your life and your family and their lives. I'm sure there are those who turned away from you because of your stealing for your "fix" and so you changed from a trustworthy decent person to an untrustable mess not interested in anything but that next fix anymore. Not caring about those s/he once loved. Perhaps it's the other way round perhaps your family couldn't show you love -whether or not that means it didn't. Why prove them right? Why give up on the real world?
  Have I seen cold turkey? Studying Psychology before I became ill -no not due to drugs!- What I will ask is, and some-one wrote a forum on similar lines: Do you remember what it was like to be clean?
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That confirms my belief that you have no clue what you are talking about.
  Cold turkey done under medical supervision is no different to cold turkey done without medical supervision.
  
  If you are implying that medical supervision involves the use of other drugs to alleviate the symptoms of withdrawal, then that isn't cold turkey.
  
  By the way, do you also know that possible side effects of cold turkey include heart attack or stroke?
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  psycheskinnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sure, one method is to go through the worst of the physical symptoms with the patient in an induced state of unconsciousness.
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But that's not cold turkey, cold turkey involves having absolutely no supporting medication at all, not even an induced coma.
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  days leaperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  by medical supervision I refer to the fact of a friend of the family whose doctor tried to first change his heroin (not the one who died, this one was successful he's still somewhat messed up compared to what he was before).
  The doc. put him on methodone, at first allowed on supervision of his parents, who were ill, wheelchair bound etc. So that did not work. Under supervision, methodone used again, but making sure the dose was brught down. b/p monitored, and a gentle exercise program was supervision, a community of those wanting to recover met therapuetically each week as well as one on one sessions to talk about the addicts problems. Past and present, And how their course is going. I think you get the gist. It worked for him.
  As for not knowing what I'm talking about. ...1. I don't claim to be any kind of world renowned expert, but I do know enough to see that there is a lot of one sided propaganda on these pages that amounts to nothing more than BS. I know what I've lived, and that I'm in a much better position to make the right call, the right judgement. That your over the top statement is your projection because you don't know much yourself, nor do you actually know what others know it may be using that gives you false beliefs etc. Well, despite your ill manners I hope that should you ever wish to come off and be free of it that you find the right help and are successful. The same goes for you all.
  As for knowing my own limitations; I know that I would not be able to help some-one through COLD-TURKEY; no matter how genuine and though I would want if I felt they were genuine, I know enough to know there are people better set up than I -The friend of the family proved me right on this one too!
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Using Meth to come off heroin is not cold turkey.
  
  What sort of one sided propaganda do you keep seeing? That the illegality of drugs is a major problem and what over the top statement have I made?
  And what the . . . do you mean by "should you ever wish to come off and be free of it that you find the right help and are successful"?
  I don't think you are in a good position at all to make the right call or any call, your lack of knowledge is woeful and dangerous.
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  days leaperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually your lack of understanding is woefull. In the program I mentioned meth part was used to bring users down to safe/r level to avoid / minimise risk of the side effects you mentioned. Then cold turkey is used responsibly.
  But as for your ill manners as far as I'm concerned you can save up take massive amounts of every heavy thing known out there and if it does it's job well, one less. Re. Over top statements; I don't know now as I've moved on. And decided from your post that it isn't really worth bothering with.
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But there is nothing intrinsically evil about heroin, it doesn't automatically turn users to theft or prostitution.
  
  That is a product of societies attitude, the fact that though most addicts could hold down a job, no job will pay enough to support even a small habit and therefore the user has no legal recourse, instead has to steal to support their habit.
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  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Amen, when I was a kid (1960's) heroin was rife where I lived and many friends fell foul of it, but what 'did them in' was not the drug, it was the haphazard quality, dirty needles and societies attitude.
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  days leaperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  or face their problem and go cold turkey.
  But wait, I'm not suggesting they do this alone, if they've no friends willing/able to help; a decent psychiatrist or similar professional; or surely there are groups: I mean sort of like The Samaritans for the suicidal etc.
  In UK there's FRANK, the letters stand for something I forget exactly but the number can be obtained from a freely distributed phonebook. -There are other charitable organisations too this is just the only example I can think of.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Imagine imprison people for all drugs , those people hooked on coffee more than cannabis, for many of these caffeine addict would not make it to work, More people would in jail than out of it, it bad enough being imprison within a religion
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  days leaperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  To, John Holden: Post moterm: Was OD. Had been a long term user, kept scrounging for money off parents, and trying to rob people in streets; and that's just part of the story. Finally -I hope- Post motem revealed None of the 'filler ingredients' that was claimed.
  Why argue on something you know nothing about? Or I suppose you live next door!
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Post motem revealed None of the 'filler ingredients' that was claimed."
  
  Thank you, the dose was unusually pure and therefore outside and over the users tolerance level.
  
  BTW, I have a very close friend who is a heroin addict and I've known many over my life time. I think I have a good understanding of the problem.
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  days leaperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  using it and users are the problem.
  Nothing out of the ordinary was found; except that the user "went a bit too far!"
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree. I spent some time as a young man with some legal types. Smart young barristers and the like. One of these young men had a friend at the bar who was in his late 40's and used heroin. Good quality heroin from a good source.
  
  He looked 10 years younger than his age and had been using it regularly for 15 years. He is now quite old and a well known and expensive Queen's Council.
  
  Street smack is cut with baking soda, salts, ajax, anything at all. Not smart to use "street" drugs.
  You never see these people on the streets, they are in their Vaucluse mansions and never come to the attention of the law.
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The first addict I knew, forty+ years ago, in the days when registered addicts were given BP heroin by doctors, worked in a factory. Unlike most of the other workers he turned up for work in a suit and tie and was often mistaken for management.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I lost a friend to alcohol. He was my business manager and told me up front when I met him that he was a drug user, who used to shoot LSD in his eyeball.
  
  He made a fantastic manager and became a good friend. Despite all the drugs he used he functioned very well. One night he got blind drunk, fell asleep outside in a small town he was visiting and died of exposure.
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Mikeydoesposted 13 years ago
There is no doubt that the Drug War is going completely in the wrong direction.

How we are currently handling the situation is not only wrong, but it is costing us tons of money to no avail.
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
Laughable! Your source is the readers digest?
I stand by what I said. You are a danger to the young generations. Misinformation is just that.
What you posted is unmitigated ill informed garbage! I'm not here to nurse your feelings and the end of your comment is abusive, so save the soap box.
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  days leaperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  1. readers digest over the thug in the street that robs OAPs of their pension, no that isn't from RD. but of course, you won't like the information so you'll knock it anyway you can.
  As far as unmitigated goes users seem to have the monopoly on this twisting things to try to make black look white (as the saying goes -or is that unmitigated as I can't quite remember the source: Oh! Perhaps I'll have to start using! -Pff!) And if young generations are daft enough to read the pro drug forums well, perhaps they are past any reasonable advice anyways.
  As regards the comment that points out some home truths about what goes in certain places. You would say it was abusive wouldn't you as it points out to any impressionable youngsters what they're getting into if they follow your lies and pro drug malicious deciet.
  I too hereby stand by what I say.
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How you skew things!
  Not wanting to criminalise folk,send them to prison where nothing will be done about their drug habit but plenty will be done to further criminalise them is pro drug in your book!
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  days leaperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Did I ever say that the legal system, or any governmental system for that matter being remotely perfect? - or even excellent or good etc. No far from it. On the other hand no-one can help those who don't want to be helped -so unless requested formally no money will be wasted on that. And lets face it I see nobody asking on these pages anywhere!!!
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why then were you accusing me and others of being pro drug when all we've been arguing for is legalisation?
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crochet48posted 13 years ago
I'm fuming.

I live in the southwestern part of the U.S., which has been STRONGLY affected by the drug cartels and drug war in Mexico. Hint: I live too close to Juarez, which is now considered by the State Department to be the "most dangerous city in the world."

To say I don't appreciate the OP's topic would be an extreme understatement, but I do support the First Amendment. Just be mindful that real people are experiencing very real suffering as a result of this war. Death, loss of loved ones, being forced to move from the only home/city they have known and move to a foreign country (here) just to escape the risk of death, are just a few of those. So, please, keep them in mind when you blather on.
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  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Then, being close to the problem, you should be able to see that decriminalisation would STOP illegal drug sales and make it less attractive financially to sell death by the gram.
  
  One drug barons house was raided in mexico and they found 21 billion dollars in $100 bills stacked in storage chests all over the house, that's how profitable the 'war' on illegal drugs is, and why the ONLY way to stop it is to make the supply legally available.
  
  I wish you well in your hometown, may it soon be rid of drug problems.
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crochet48posted 13 years ago
Thank you. I listen to the news nearly every night and, on too many of those nights, we hear of multiple murders (innocent families caught in the crossfire). One of the cartels carried out a car bombing last year in Juarez -- just like it happens in Iraq or Afghanistan.

If the carteles were only dealing in cannabis, yes, I'd support decriminalization. They're dealing in cocaine and heroin as well. The violence won't stop just because cannabis is legalized. Besides, they're fighting a turf war -- "You stay out of Juarez, Monterrey, Nayarit and deal only out of Veracruz and we'll stop killing," is what they're saying. Of course, the rival carteles are saying, "Hell no! We're gonna sell in Nayarit, Monterrey, Verazruz, Oaxca (sp) AND Juarez. YOU stay out of THESE territories/states . . ."

See where this is heading? Mexico is one huge war zone. There's no end in sight. Of course, the Mexican "leadership" isn't doing squat, just sitting on its collective hands and saying, "No podemos nada (we can't do anything)." Sec. of State Clinton is even involved in this one. I do give slight credit to Presidente Felipe Calderon, but he's only one man and the Mexican army and law enforcement are riddled with corrupt members.

In the U.S., the posse comitatus law forbids our military from going in and performing ANY law enforcement activities. It's gonna take a lot of very smart minds meeting and chewing on this to begin to come up with a solution that *may* work.

Legalizing cannabis is just a drop in a very large sewage bucket.
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Mark Ewbieposted 13 years ago
We have the US army in Afghanistan and still the heroin comes out. Just how much war does it take? Should you nuke the place to destroy the crops?

How long has the war being going on in Columbia and Mexico?

IT DOESN'T WORK!!!

So.... you legalise everything. No more dealers, no more drug barons, no more war.

You take the billions saved on military and law enforcement and you invest a tenth of it in rehab. You stop the criminal element overnight with no effort other than signing a piece of paper.

The few countries that have tried this have seen NO RISE in illegal drug taking.

No wonder we carry on fighting stupid wars with this sort of attitude. The current method PRETENDS to be doing something... it is achieving NOTHING.
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not entirely true Mark, the current method puts a lot of money into the system, certainly more than the banks would willingly give up,likewise private prisons, police forces and lots more.
  Nobody, on either side, gives a shot about the users, it's all about money.
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  Mark Ewbieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Good point John. All those prisoners, costing us a fortune. That's after they have stolen from us to feed the habit of course.
  
  Turn the prisons into rehab centres, legalise it and cut out the drug barons.
  
  I probably need to write a hub on this.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sound like good ideas Mark and John
  
  The problem still there, the Rich and the Government stands to make a great deal of money off keeping it all illegal, for example
  
  Mexican Army corrupted and now largest Drug Cartel in Mexico by Border Narcotics Intelligence, I wonder if it’s like Reagan cold war with Russia now the USA has half of the world's war budget and 25% of the world prison, plus authority kill more people than the criminal do.
  
  Just looking for a balance, is there any?
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Good point. Here in Michigan, a prisoner costs us between $30K and $40K/year. But a student only get an allocation of about $7K/year. One of our public school administrators wrote to our governor asking if we could please turn his schools into prisons.
  
  Here's an excerpt from the letter:
  "One solution I believe we must do is take a look at our corrections system in Michigan. We rank nationally at the top in the number of people we incarcerate. We also spend the most money per prisoner annually than any other state in the union. Now, I like to be at the top of lists, but this is one ranking that I don’t believe Michigan wants to be on top of.
  
  Consider the life of a Michigan prisoner. They get three square meals a day. Access to free health care. Internet. Cable television. Access to a library. A weight room. Computer lab. They can earn a degree. A roof over their heads. Clothing. Everything we just listed we DO NOT provide to our school children.
  
  This is why I’m proposing to make my school a prison. The State of Michigan spends annually somewhere between $30,000 and $40,000 per prisoner, yet we are struggling to provide schools with $7,000 per student. I guess we need to treat our students like they are prisoners, with equal funding. Please give my students three meals a day. Please give my children access to free health care. Please provide my school district Internet access and computers. Please put books in my library. Please give my students a weight room so we can be big and strong. We provide all of these things to prisoners because they have constitutional rights."
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days leaperposted 13 years ago
So, when did coffee make some idiot jump from a bedroom window -or wherever- because he thought he could fly, when did coffee make some-one go into a school with a firearm and kill a load of students who were just trying to get through their day?

I don't drink coffee myself, being British I suppose -more inclined to tea; out of the two anyway.
Cold Turkey would still help the coffee addict as it would any-one.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Where in the world do you get your drug information from?
  
  As a kid in school’s health class, only once did I see a film where a guy jump out the window to his death, he first ran around the room clicking like a chicken, then jumped, all from just one toke of a joint called reefer.
  Us kid had more questions for the teacher on where can we purchase this reefer from the 1940s Reefer Madness film because our joints of 2 or 3 joints could only begin getting us high.
  
  N CA, and Colorado are the only places I know where medical marijuana out sell Star Bucks in the world. If we can change the minds of American about cannabis health benefits then you can move on the another 50,000 different products from cannabis, non drug related and change the world into a healthier place.
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  days leaperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I see the drug information at your school was pretty pointless, and that seems to be where the waste of money is from the look of it.
  Seeing only one film and deciding only one person ever did anything stupid from it. -And I'm being accussed of ignorance! Really! All I can say is "What are they teaching kids these days"
  Yes, I hope the teacher told you where he got that; that way every-one can fly and the world will in deed be a healthier place as more and more addicts will fly off this world.
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  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I must state that I smoked hash very heavily for about seven years before I came to faith, (and in total I smoked hash from 15 years old to 42 years of age, but the last seven years were heavy years!) and never saw anyone trying to fly when stoned, trying to find the way to stand up was enough for most stoners!
  
  I stopped dope because I found a better 'high' in the Holy Spirit, but that's another story, not for here.
  
  I have no problem with hash usage, it's self regulating, for if you are inexperienced and smoke a big heavy joint, you will be collapsed for as long as it takes for the hash to wear out, a heap in the corner feeling kinda weird and possibly not liking it.
  
  Indeed probably the best way to stop your kid smoking is to roll them a really heavy stoogie from your box and let them be sick for an hour, chances are they will not be too willing to go there again, least not until they try it in more controlled dosage!
  
  Experience teaches one to roll your own joints unless you know the roller well, to test new supply with caution until you can gauge the strength, and to buy lots of chocolate and cookies for the party!
  
  BTW 'really heavy' was a chunk the size of my pinky fingernail about every 45 minutes from 08.30 until 02.30.
  
  Fortunately I was living in Spain and supply was cheap (Morocco was only 8 miles away over the water) and quality was fine as it was all overseen by the local Guardia Civil policemen.
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Jeff Berndtposted 13 years ago
Most of the well-known horror stories about people doing crazy stuff while on drugs are hoaxes.

Here's the "Staring into the Sun until Blind" hoax.

And here's the hoax about "The Girl Who Thought She Could Fly"

There are a lot of other lies circulating about the scary stuff drugs can do to you, and it's wrong to perpetuate them.

They're the moral equivalent of this:

To be fair, there are plenty of real bad effects that drugs have, but they're not as sensational as the lies.
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days leaperposted 13 years ago
Thanks for good info there, but why are ex-users who are prepared to speak, who dare speak, never going to say they are now against it?

2. I have to say Spain does seem to have the best pro idea, decriminalise under a grow your own licence. I don't like Holland's hash cafe's nor its advertising so openly prostitution.

Re, sensationalism; I must admit that the media gets its loot by doing so, but all I said was in reference to coffee -there are still more illegalised drug users 'learning to fly' ETC. than coffee addicts. When I say etc. lets not forget... How many mug OAP's for a jar of coffee??? What I'm saying is on the flying band wagon is leading to tunnel vision somewhat. Perhaps I went for sensationalism on that one point because lets face it HubPages is a media related project and it makes for good discussions.
What is more I, nor the anti-drug side of this argument are the only ones doing it, bearing in mind it involves being a bit fast and loose with the facts to a certain degree/s.
If I'd said more murders occurr by those on or with a history of drug usage, etc. What would you people have made of that? And to be honest I haven't bothered looking at any statistics for a very long time -better things to do! (speaking of which...)
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days leaperposted 13 years ago
"My oh! my!!!" -how YOU SKEW Things.
Don't waste my time with mis-truths and lies like this and then dare to tell me I'm a fraction out with some statistics.
I think you know the two types of legislation are different. 1. Your let us do whatever the ... we want,
compared to 2. Let there be help available for those who want to come off it and be clean.
To reiterate. An 'armistice' for those working to come off. That is to admit "I was on it, I still do it help me come off it" compared to "No Governor, not me -oh! and it should be free/r to do".
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  How predictable, lose the debate and first of all accuse the other of being rude and offensive, when that doesn't work, accuse them of telling half truths and lies, and when that doesn't work, change the debate.
  
  Just to reiterate, cold turkey is without any chemical assistance at all and extremely dangerous, and imprisoning people for a social illness is barbaric.
  
  Go one, keep wriggling
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  days leaperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This debacle doesn't get to call itself a debate. But when do you feel you lost it? Was it when your tactics were used on you or when you were reduced to the kind of rubbish you just saw fit to put upon this world. I wonder, did you get high? Well wake UP! -smell the coffee instead!- It was another false high caused by an artificial substance!
  
  As regards countries that allow a grow your own. These tend to contribute to blackmarket sales in other countries. It shows how hard something is to police. And how things can look different in theory but reality isn't what you'd know much about I guess.
  
  Cold Turkey as an end result, as I have described before -perhaps I got the name confused, but then I'm not as into this subject as I don't gain anything from giving my time to these arguments. Only hope less people get suckered into this world from people like I willing to point out the realities rather than the propaganda of those pretending there's no harm where there is.
  
  Furthermore: You call a lie against you anything that puts people straight on the actual very real dangers of drugs. You claim insult wherever you see the truth because truth hurts: -but you can at least burn away your conscience with your stash, not an insult just an estimation of what you do, though many others wouldn't -not enough to warrant the abhorent idea to legalise it.
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I lost it! Guffaw.
  
  Look, who's pretending there's no harm?
  But look who's pretending that locking people up is a good idea when it does absolutely nothing to "cure" the addict, drugs are as easy to obtain inside as they are outside.
  It must be about the only offence where incarceration has absolutely no affect on the offending behaviour.
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  days leaperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Though there is a benefit of keeping the lowest in society off the streets. And no, class is not a good guide.
  
  -try reading the posts. And stop putting words into peoples mouths in some kind of desperate attempt to win an argument. The only people you're "winning" with is your own clique. And don't you know that "Winners don't do drugs!"
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Eh?
  
  What?
  
  You've finally lost it, haven't you?
  You try reading the posts and stop making them up.
  In fact, stop making everything up.
  I don't have to put words into peoples mouths, you're doing enough of that and exactly what words am I putting into peoples mouths?
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Mind you I did not do much drug cannabis has always been safe, except for the cops, Maybe I had too much of Sports and Artworks, I was world class in two Sports and world class in four areas in the Arts , The greatest switch and change of life was done over just one hit of acid.
  
  Even runners who over do it, can be an addiction to the point of off balancing your life.
  My health still doing well love my job strong for 36 years and have greater plans to ascend my entire prior dream that came true 85% of the time. Everything in moderation I say
  
  Tell us about your winning lifestyle day leaper?
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  days leaperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Are you claiming a winning lifestyle while on acid/drugs???
  At the end of my life, I will look you up in that heaven world and we can compare notes. But get this, I defy all you drugsters to go through all that I have and survive for quite so long -and without cowarding out on mind altering substances!
  I actually liked your post up until that challenge. As a child I won awards for Athletics, had poetry published and won competitions, was asked if I wanted to play pro soccer at 20-ish, but was ill! Oh, and guess what I'm stil young enough to achieve more despite illness! ...that is if I can get away from people pestering me for answers on this forum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  At age 56 I have traded in my athletics faze for statesmanship and cooperation. Don't play the religious higher moral card with me because per capita there are more Christians in imprisonment at a (per capita) higher rate than any other group. There more cannabis smokers in the world than there are Christians. So, if you want to add them to your long list of enemies,luck with that
  
  The vas majority of people are generally good
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  days leaper
  Are you claiming a winning lifestyle while on acid/drugs???
  At the end of my life, I will look you up in that heaven world and we can compare notes.
  I only did acid once at age 16, never did any other chemical related drug afterwards. Sound like you were very high on drugs and now your very high Jesus. How many Christians take death jumps out window on dangerous drugs, plus threaten the rest us with the end of world, I can see the hellish connection now.
  
  Athletic is also a metaphor term when younger people go through a more competitive mode period in life. As they get older they become wiser and lead the young with their experience for most part.
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  days leaperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  never done acid, never told any-one the end of the world is nigh. Would prefer to know Jesus than any Hellish Drugster! But have never claimed either way. you again put words in my mouth and try making up lies about me, and try to paint yourself pretty etc. FRANKly I'm getting bored of it.
  Oh! And your friend' Holdems lies about my trying to protect drug barons in a question, I say bring back the death penalty. And why doesn't America that already has it go after them? The crime and drug syndicate that both goes hand in hand whilst going high up. Thank fully, at least their must be a divide high up of good and bad otherwise there'd be the scurge of it being legal; the war would be lost rather than a few defeats and as many wins.
  Me thinks you compete and complain too much between you. Do your ... drugs then if you have to but at least be men enough to accept the way things are for such reprobates and stop trying to cry foul whenever some-one expresses disagreement. Your arguments are warn and tested and found to be flawed. No actual expert will waste their time on you as you don't want to change, you can't see your doing anything wrong and therefore deserve pity and stand offishness!!!!!!!!!!!
  Don't pester me for attention again. I'm wiser for this experience, and I've got what I wanted from it, which I expect is more than I can say for the pair of you.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Mate, there's no point in engaging with Days. I learned that on the other discussion about this topic.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am beginning to think so too with days of our lives sick cum
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John Holdenposted 13 years ago
And why is there a benefit in locking up sick people?
I suppose you'd agree that it was a good idea locking up unwed mothers!
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days leaperposted 13 years ago
oh, dear! Seems I hit a nerve.
"Sick people" - is that your term for criminals? Drug addicts are sick, paedophiles are sick...

As for losing it. Two replies to one post. Tut, tut tut! Psychology has been aware of 'projection' for a long time. What's this you say of me and beliefs about unwed mothers...
I cannot even make a serious comment in reply to you anymore as you've brought the conversation down to this.
As for unwed mothers, if it wasn't so sad I might've laughed at you. On final consideration: If the sporn is yours... Yes, lock them all up ("Heee, Hee Hee!")
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, two separate points deserve two separate posts, I don't all ways, but do often.
  
  That's the final defence of the defeated "I cannot make a serious comment in reply to you any more" :LOL:
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  days leaperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So say's you. But you seem keen to propogate victory. A sign of an insecure mind, but then oh, yes. drug use/r or proponent thereof. That should've been obvious!!!
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, not keen on propagating victory, just keen on disabusing people of dangerous views and prejudice.
  I've never used hard drugs in my life, not that stupid, but have known many users over my lifetime and have an understanding of the workings of the minds of some addicts.
  I think that your belief that I must be a user to hold my views says rather more about you than it does me.
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  days leaperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  your 1st paragraph is a lie. If you were you'd say don't take it, except in tea with certain incurable illnesses. -if you must.
  
  As for the rest of it, there's a saying "bad company breeds bad character!"
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nope, wrong again, my first paragraph isn't a lie and your saying it is doesn't make it so.
  
  As for your other comment, beneath contempt.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, Everything I say I can prove, by confronting every challenge that is important to me. The ones who are insecure, avoid challenge and hide, best challenge is changing oneself first
  
  For example I claim cannabis is the most important and diverse plant for production in the world and want to produce it for a healthier well being for all. You already have too little information and knowledge to start with to disprove it otherwise.
  Co operation works better than more stress in an already over completive and over ego World
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ah! Our first birthady gift from dad and mom! The efforts to control and legislate are to no avail. Throwing lawyers, guns and money at the problem only can backfire. Our kids need school, our old and infirm need medical help, our badly or under nutritioned people need help too. It makes no sense anymore, never really did. Throw a pothead in jail is like sending them to Criminal School...they will foreverafter be a burden and expense to the system, further weakening it. Bad bet.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Pot people learn a worst criminal trade in jail, then when they went in.
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days leaperposted 13 years ago
May I suggest. If you cannot do a project legally - don't do it at all. There are already issues with GM crops we don't need to get the poor plants high as well, or produce massive insects like giant killer bees etc. This eco stuff could lead to the worlds down fall. And you don't know enough to say otherwise either.
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iyoung03posted 13 years ago
I think going after low level street dealers and addicts is pointless. These people are basically just hurting themselves or choosing an ill advised way to try to support themselves and their families. Sending them to prison doesn't really rehabilitate them it just makes them better criminals or worst off. Now going after high level suppliers and cartels may be worth while.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The Mexican Government does not really go after the 45% of the largest drug cartels, only pretend to do.so. That is because they are in business with them, more backdoor BS politicks
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days leaperposted 13 years ago
"At age 56 I have traded in my athletics faze for statesmanship and cooperation."
Being non-American etc. I am not familiar with term "statesmanship and cooperation" though I do know what the terms generally mean; I still don't see the point of telling me. As for giving up athletics; what am I supposed to do about that?

"Don't play the religious higher moral card with me ..."
Don't see where I did this with you, I do remember concern that your project would get you in trouble with the authorities if you persisted without permission and got found out.

"...per capita there are more Christians in imprisonment at a (per capita) higher rate than any other group."
Again, not sure putting people in prision because of what they claim to be has anything to do with me, or the point at hand for that matter.

"There more cannabis smokers in the world than there are Christians. So,"
Therefore it must be harder to be a Christian??? -Again, not clear what you're driving at or what you want from me; though why do you make the false assumption that majorities are always somehow right just because they are the majority? And where do you get your barmy statistics?

"if you want to add them to your long list of enemies,luck with that"
Had no intention of making enemies, thought this was a good way to bring out more of the facts for people, if used properly -the fact it got heated in places made it entertainment media rather than over relie on statistical data. People chose partial sources or in my case went from memory of wherever and whenever. But...I believe even if no-one in the pro camp will admit it; I kept it real. Scorn all you want.
In any case: I think it is more or less coming to the end of its day now anyway. Especially as you've brought religion into it!

"The vas majority of people are generally good"
A broad range, unprovable statement. I'm surprised at you after the drilling I got.
Good at What? What majority is this? -Christians, Cannabis users, hispanics, martians, the whole lot put tgether? -What? Good isn't necessarily right.
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recommend1posted 13 years ago
It is hard to find more crap on any other forum - what is the problem with you guys !!!! If anyone wants it what is your right to deny it !! legalise it to stop everyone from thedealer to the president getting a cut of it - and tax it to reduce the ridiculous deficit you guys rack up in living beyond your means ! Wake up and smell the coffee guys - you are broke and arguing about pure Bullsh!t !
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yup, these people who are arguing for it to be kept illegal are no better than the dealers they wish to support and keep in business.
  They are as guilty as the dealers for all the ruined lives and deaths from adulterated drugs.
  They are as guilty for all the thefts that happen to support the cartels and the money men.
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John Holdenposted 13 years ago
OK Days,
you are in favour of maintaining the illegality of drugs with all that entails.
You want people to be poisoned with adulterants that do nothing other than harm users.
You think lives should be destroyed purely because drugs are illegal, no other human behaviour is so treated.
You support the use of illegal drugs to finance major crime and terrorism.

You have produced no legitimate reason for maintaining illegality, or for countering the evils of drugs and yet claim the moral high ground, insulting everybody with a more open and understanding view point.

And now he wants to bring back the death penalty for drug users!
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  DEATH TO ALL DRUG USERS
  
  HO OH OH!!! Her come the End of the World that may be the only solution for Days leaping conclusions
  
  Why is everyone pick in on me, says Charlie RIGHT
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knolyourselfposted 13 years ago
"The East India Company traded mainly in cotton, silk, indigo dye, saltpetre, tea, and opium."
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And totally legally.
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knolyourselfposted 13 years ago
"The profits made by Russell enabled him to found Russell & Company in Canton, China, in 1824. Dealing mostly in silks, teas and opium, Russell & Company prospered, and by 1842, it had become the largest American trading house in China."
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John Holdenposted 13 years ago
"I think what was truly depressing about my time in the civil service was that the professionals I met from every sector held the same view: the illegality of drugs causes far more problems for society and the individual than it solves."

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co … 94367.html

So much for me being out on a limb!
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knolyourselfposted 13 years ago
Yes my point being that the people who owned these opium trading companies became so rich that their descendent's are now aspects of the ruling class. And the beat goes on.
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days leaperposted 13 years ago
OK. Mis-Quoters, where have I been insulting? Unsubstantiated -no-one here has been moderated, disputed yes, with very clever and intentional wording. I never said you don't know how to twist things and even make it look plausible -on the surface anyways. Another instance? "Christians" I don't know how many jump from windows depends on what their food was spiked with (by You know who!!!)"ho-ho-ho!"
As for the quite malicious mis-quote "Death to all drug users", and the rest of it. And lets get it straight this castle guy and geoffie boy seemed like decent people until they started with the insults. Only holdit seemed a bit strange from the start and gets worse as things go on, as all who actually bothered with "conclusion leaper" (I like that, believe it or not. Wish I'd thought of it ("ha-ha!")) seem to.
And as this has gone down hill as a result of such, after this have your last word but try to be "nice" and "accurate" -so take a chill pill or whatever (humour, not insult: Or so I was thinking but if not reciprocating then it is only failed humour I suppose: "never mind then.")
- The correct quote was such a penalty to the pushers, seller barons etc. not so much users. I thought about it some more; If Law changed eventually there will be no-one supplying!
I looked at this. I am reliably informed that when one goes to prision some-one takes over "their patch" until they come out at least. With Death Penalty, at least this will get less and less until there aren't any more left. But hey this would spell Success for the war on drugs!
Now go on, time for your last word/s. I will leave you to your lies, bitterness and decietful propaganda I promise. But don't let your readers down, they surely by now are expecting some nastiness.
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Here's one "As for the rest of it, there's a saying "bad company breeds bad character!"
  
  And here's another "So say's you. But you seem keen to propogate victory. A sign of an insecure mind, but then oh, yes. drug use/r or proponent thereof. That should've been obvious!!!"
  
  That do you or do you want more?
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  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But you've been the one all through the thread arguing that the law shouldn't change, heaping insults on those who say that the law needs to change!
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  days leaper
  OK. Mis-Quoters, where have I been insulting
  Ha hah ha-ha he he he
  
  At least if you could deliver a decent insult a lot of us here could learn something from a truthful insult. Most people on this thread and most people where I come from want to soften the laws on drugs, mainly cannabis.
  
  I have no idea how you define a decent person, I do bend some set laws that are harmful to man and nature. Yet do not break laws according to my perfect record and consciousness
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days leaperposted 13 years ago
Closure:

Believe it or not, I am wrapping up my input to this any & all drug related forum/s and while these comments are not intended to get the final word, my brain doesn't find it easy to rest when it comes to finding answers. {The 'Conclusion' Leaper never sleeps!}.
I can honestly say that had I known that forum aims was to find compromise, is that the right phrase then I would never have entered these (on drugs). As my opinions are held quite strongly, though I did not realise how much so before all this.
(If any consolation, there's only the HubPages finding answers that I might, even then not many. It isn't like I have the time anyway.)
JH: (et-al) No more 'insults' from me, though this in my case usually tend to react when I feel attacked, this happened with Geoff: when you started with "Satire", I seemed to enjoy it so much was unable to stop for a long time. Though with my question (What constitutes an accussation) on HP/through the response of a kind hubber/s. I did offer a retraction in the end.
With my question, re. Last Word, that JH. answered. I have taken on board what you said the forum is supposed to be about. And as I feel I can't do so, I will at least hopefully not prolong the ?"damage", hard feelings etc. by bowing out. Had you left it at the advice about forums I would have voted you up! Thanks for your correction at least. I was sorry also to hear about your stroke, I haven't made comment as I figured you would not appreciate it from me. But it is something I lived with as a big risk for a long time due to high blood pressure despite having been on maximum pills. So am genuine here. And while I know we'll never get on now, one burning Question: United or City??
C: I truly hope science or your research or something that provides solution and answer without needing anything banned at this time; that your project can be completed legally and shine as a pure and wholly positive example to humanity and that the fame of your success reaches me -then we can celebrate in that heaven world rather than compare notes.
Geoff: Whatever your interests and motivations; it's non of my business anyway so long as it doesn't harm me etc. I really didn't understand the qualm initially.
ALL: Regarding those "dealers tc." who pollute the stuff, that leads to deaths. I truly believe This is with the sellers not the law. I won't now come out with "if you can't do the time..." -as I know that will be taken as an insult. but may I ask Why is there not a rule around, among your community/ies that can perhaps be a subject for debate: That if a seller kills some-one with a bad stash, that said supplier is automatically reported. This could be annonymous, or/and unanimous among the using community. Now, please don't quote the don't grass rule, it might lead to the quip that I hope we can all laugh at, being "You don't grass but you do grass!" -(did I achieve that holy grail you mentioned??? a funny "insult" we can all learn from? -well that was my wish! No more though). I know from the ferocity when there was something I said that you didn't like that you know how to defend each other. And if you make it so a seller is responsible for what is being sold they will think twice before dishing out any old tat.
And that, gentleman, is the best I can do regarding the forum rule. I hope I got somewhere near at least.
Regards,
"Conclusion" Leaper, Days.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Was I , too hard on him?
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