Can Jehovah's Witnesses be considered a subset of Christianity
Since I became a Christian in 1978, I have taken many discipleship classes. Some used acrostics and acronyms to facilitate sharing the gospel. Early on when I spoke with Jehovah's Witnesses, I would say "I am a Christian." They would say, "Ok!" and walk away. During the 90s when I was approached, they would say "We are Christians too." That threw me. After that, when I was approached by JWs, I would say, "I believe Jesus is God." How can one be a Christian without believing Jesus is God? The Bible never states, as they say, that Jesus is Michael the Archangel.
I'm willing to discuss without hostility.
Can someone convince me that Jesus is not God? I believe that He always was and will always exist.
Jehovah's Witnesses began in 1872. Where does there expertise in history and doctrine come from.I've known a few people who call themselves Christians who do not believe Christ to be divine. I think the importance doesn't lie in the word one chooses with which to identify, but one's belief system. In my experience, calling oneself a Christian has always meant that you believe Christ to be God. However, it seems as time has gone on and more deviations of religion have surfaced, that this term has been used a bit loosely; therefore, when asking about someone's particular faith, I prefer to ask them specifically what they believe, for clarity
As far as Jesus being or not being God, this is a hot issue. I've studied the original manuscripts in both Hebrew and Greek, and done extensive research on the ancient versions of both The debate over his divinity is not just one of preference or interpretations of specific Biblical words, but in the words themselves. That is, there is disagreement in the words chosen in translation, leading to disagreement in specifically what words and passages pertaining to Christ's divinity, truly mean. Many of the ancient Greek words (and [especially] Hebrew words, but I focus on Greek because that is the New Testament language) in the scriptures had vague and ambiguous meanings, leaving a lot of room for preference, assumption, and liberty with which to interpret them. This is the struggle in any interpretation of an ancient language.Thank you for your response Ashton! I asked a question under Q&A and received responses from a JW friend. We wanted to move to this forum so we could write more lengthy explanations.
I appreciate the time you took to provide thoughtful input. The discussion will go smoothly without ranters.
K&T should be joining any time now. It will be interesting to have you participate with us.
DianeI look forward to hearing the thoughts and viewpoints of a Jehovah Witness hubber. I feel it's difficult to really grasp the viewpoints of other belief systems unless speaking to an individual who is personally involved, even with countless articles claiming to do so.
I couldn't help but mention that David Icke, whose work was above referenced, is a highly controversial character, and represents just one facet of countless theories prevailing concerning Jehovah Witnesses' ties to such organizations as Illuminati, Freemasonry etc. His work is very interesting and I'm an avid reader of his as well as other religious theories regarding Illuminati and Freemasonry, etc., but I think it's important to remember that these are just theories. The historical data relating to these organizations has been so skewed, and in some cases kept so secret, that very little can be stated as unarguable, historical fact without some theory, interpretation, opinion, or bias being thrown in, and without some resulting disagreements The line between historical fact and theory has never been more blurred than in the case of the Illuminati and Freemasonry.
I hope that your Jehovah Witness friend feels comfortable sharing their beliefs here without fear of condemnation and accusations.I invited the hubber to come to this forum for a more lengthy discussion. She doesn't seem to want to. She prefers giving Scripture reference with 2 or 3 words. I tried to explain that the words should be taken in context of the whole passage and companion passages.
I hope she will come to the forum and I hope other Jws who are willing to discuss too.
Hi Diane, I am a born again Christian. I will just go into what I would like to post here. This is Illuminati stuff / New World Order / mind control / a cover for Satanism, etc.
THE MORMONS AND THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES ARE THE SAME ORGANISATION
by David Icke
The founders of both "faiths", the Mormons and JWs, were of the Illuminati bloodline. Charles Taze Russell, who founded the Watchtower Society (JWs), was of the Illuminati Russell bloodline, which also founded the infamous Skull and Bones Society at Yale University. Charles Taze Russell was a Satanist, a paedophile according to his wife, and a friend of the Rothschilds. Indeed it was the Rothschilds who funded the Jehovah's Witness operation into being, along with other Illuminati bankers, through "contributions" by organisations like the Rothschild-controlled B'nai B'rith. This was proved in a court of law in 1922. One of the key people involved in this was Frank Goldman who later became President of B'nai B'rith. Why would an organisation set up (in theory) to help Jewish people and promote the Jewish faith, be funding into existence the Jehovah's Witnesses?? I think the name Rothschild answers the question. Russell was also a high degree Freemason and Knights Templar. He promoted Zionism, another Rothschild creation (see Was Hitler a Rothschild), on behalf of his friends and backers.
Joseph Smith, along with Hiram Smith and Brigham Young, were the key figures behind the creation of the Mormon religion. They were of the elite of the elite Illuminati bloodline, the Merovingian or "Holy Grail" line, and were all high degree Freemasons. They were also Satanists and formed their "church" as a front for Satanic activity which very much still goes on today. Why wouldn't it, that is what it is there for. The Mormon empire was funded into existence by the Rothschilds through their Kuhn, Loeb, bank which also funded the Russian Revolution and Adolf Hitler, and yet again B'nai Brith, the Rothschild intelligence arm and defamer of genuine researchers, was involved.
Again the followers of these mind control cults would be shocked to think that the upper levels of these "religions" would engage in Satanic activity and human sacrifice of children, but it is about time they knew.
Russell's family was formerly known as Roessel and went to Scotland from Germany. Of course, Germany is a massive occult centre, from which the Rothschilds emerged, and Scotland is one of the key areas of the world for Illuminati bloodlines. From the start, Charles Taze Russell used his new Watchtower Society, based at Bethel, Brooklyn, New York, as a front for black magic, or Enochian magic as his brand of Satanism was called. He put the flying Sun disk on the front of his books, an ancient Illuminati symbol going back to Egypt and Babylon. The Watchtower magazine has always been a mass of subliminal and less subliminal occult symbolism and the very name, Watchtower, is part of Illuminati and Freemasonic legend and code. To them watchtowers are areas of the "magical universe". The unseen realms. Russell was buried under a pyramid in the United States after being ritually killed on Halloween 1917. These leading Satanists of the Illuminati are ritually killed when their time comes in line with their obsession with ritual. To them, everything is ritual. Again and again the Jehovah's Witness church is named by survivors of trauma-based mind control as being involved in these unspeakable mind control projects. ...
* http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/themagaz … sell.shtml
The Freemason's conspiracy is interesting.
In studying Enoch it is important to realize that there were two Enochs in Scriptures. I do like AshtonFirefly said and study the words in Greek and Hebrew.
God bless!Thank you for this interesting article. I didn't know all of this. I got sidetracked to look up Charles Taze Russell's death. I must go teach a class. I'll be back in 4 or 5 hours. Talk to you then.
jw, 7th day adventists and david koresh are are offshoots of the millerites who were disbanded because All OF THEIR PROPHECIES FAILED TO COME TO PASS. None of them are Christian. all are the fruits of apostate men and women. jw even made their own bible. 7DA was founded on he words of a 13 yr old girl and is a mixture of old and new testament beliefs, none of which line up with the nt scriptures. they are all works og the flesh that God has no part in.
Hi Celafoe! I didn't realize SDA was connected with the other cults. We learn something new every day.
I really would like to have a discussion to understand how JWs come to their conclusions. My sister recently became one. She tried to preach to me. I attempted to dialog and she got upset. It's like she was brainwashed and nothing I said mattered.the are not allowed to "discuss" If you will not listen then their orders are to leave as fast as they can. their leaders know they cannot defend their positions against scripture with a Spirit filled Christian so do not allow them to listed to you, in fact I have had some cover their ears as they run away.
I hope they will be convicted. We plant the seeds.
I forgot to say this. There is not and can not be a subset of Christianity. Its either ALL about Jesus or it a false cult of man. ALL DENOMINATIONS WERE FOUNDED ON DIVISION WHICH IS NOT ALLOWED IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD
I agree. I love discussions and I'm hoping we will have someone to discuss with. Maybe you can help me with Credence2's bullets. I'm responding one by one.
Why waste your time, he has allowed himself to be brainwashed and because he chose error over truth God has sent him the strong delusion that causes him to follow jw doctrine and NOT LISTEN to anyone but a jw. do not be fooled he has NO interest in what you say other than to use it to try to trip you up.
Is THIS your idea of open discussion and dialogue without prejudice and preconceived bias? You are certainly not one that should be here when intelligent adults are discussing matters of this nature
are you saying you listen? that you are disobedient to your leaders?
I have no personal prefudice , just believe God not you and the others of your cult. you have your own bible because there is too much s actual scripture that disagrees with your teaching in a real bible.
your list #1-- not true Jesus taught to be faithfuland obedient to out country
#2 there is not 1 real scripture that would validate being a co, just cowardice
#3 you got that 1 right
#4 doesnt even make sense
and so on. if you were a Christian you could give up the bad habit excuse as the Holy Spirit would enable you to do so .
Mk16:16
you do realize he is not a Christian or a jw. jw do not allow smokers.
Celafoe, I know it is not God's desire that anyone should perish. I know the cigarette problem does not exempt one from God's love or grace. Such is not the case with JW.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Loosen up Celafoe! There are rewards for leading others to Christ.oh I agree. but I learned long ago not to waste my time once they have chosen mans way over God's way. My calling it to show truth to those interested in truth,not those that have chosen to go the other way. but I pray you can be successful there, I know he will not listen to me. I only pursue those the Holy Spirit directs me to. back in 1986 God rebuked me for pursueng when He had not told me to and I learned a hard lesson that night which I never want to repeat. each of us must be true to what we are tasked with and be led by His Spirit. but the you know and practice that. God
bless you as you go forth.The Lord was patient with me when I was in a dark place. We are to be patient and long suffering. I do understand that we are not all led to do the same things. Remember, people don't care what you say until they know how much you care.
You have a lot of knowledge. Keep the door open so you can share it!
Pray for me when you think about it. I've got some decisions to make.
This is why you are not getting the open dialogue that you are sincerely looking for Diane. You are letting the arrogant and haughty hijack this thread.
Christians are supposed to move others to action with their good example, not castigating words. What makes Celafoe think that he or she has all of the answers? There are thousands of religions, what makes you right and the rest all wrong? How many different interpretations is their of the Bible, if everybody agreed we wouldn't have so many different religions, would we?
Are you guys willing to listen or just condemn? Here again is a case of 'walking the talk".Credence2, I apologize if I have offended you. It certainly was not my intention. I hope you will continue to dialog with me. It looks like AshtonFirefly and you are discussing the KJV Bible. I like using a parallel Bible to compare texts.
You're forgiven, just put a leash on the bomb thrower that has infiltrated this thread.
I have a few things to say, true Christians learn to bridle their tongues and practice discernment in their lives.
I was a agnostic for sometime. When I see violence practiced over points of doctrine to where people get killed, such as ISIS, my heart greives. The mayhem resulting from imprudent use of the tongue is almost as bad. I am not going to beat people over the head with the Bible as anyone's interpretation could at best, only be subjective. While no one can really prove whether there is a GOd or not, common sense moved me in a different direction. How does a sugar ant with its speck of brain matter pursue a life of discipline and order? Human beings could learn from this.
At look at the vastness of the heavens at night from a planetary perch that protects my frail and vulnerable human body from cosmic forces that would easily tear it apart. I am not a machine that is being fueled, why do I enjoy the taste of my banana split? Atheists say that all this are favorable outcomes in a game of chance. Well, accepting too many coincidences as to how life came to be on this planet while the denying the possibility of a pattern is not necessarily scientific.
JW.org is the website that lays it all out, I cannot always explain everything, but most of the Chrsitian churches when pressed can't either. They have never afraid to answer any question put to them, I just have not asked all of the questions. The explanations made more sense when I examine than anything that I was hearing.You explanation of nature is really very Scriptural. Romans 1:20 Romans 1:20King James Version (KJV)
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
I cannot claim to be the expert on every doctrinal foundation of JW, I found them legitimate. I have studied with them for many years
1. JW dismisses 'Nationalism" as inconsistent with the Christian family. So there are no national flags on display in the "Kingdom Hall".
2. Jehovah's Witnesses are conscientious objectors and pacifists, recognizing the only true enemy that has to be fought and it is not with conventional weapons. I asked, if everyone believed and behaved as you do, how do we conduct warfare?
3. Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in the Trinity. Scriptures clearly separates the Father from the Son. God clearly states that 'He cannot die", What was the point of Jesus trials and suffering and if he could not die, really. Which would have to be case if he were part of a trilogy.
4. The definition of death is clear according to scriptures, there is no mention of any afterlife existence. There is only the resurrection hope for the dead. After all, Lazarus did not have much to say after Jesus resurrected him, seems like if you saw a world beyond the grave, you would not be able to stop talking about it.
5. We have 'talks' each Sunday conducted by leading brothers in the congregation. There are no hot-shot preachers to distract people from the importance of the message over who it is that delivers it.
6. There is disfellowshipping for those that violate Christian principles and are not repentant. The house of Jehovah is to remain clean, free of commercial ads and wares of the money changers. Blatant and repeated immorality is not tolerated.
7. I was a Baptist once and the Pastor asked for volunteers to canvas the community with information about the 'Good News", nobody had the time. Well, these folks organize their ministry every week. These people walk the talk and I don't see that very often.
I have not taken this further because I have a problem with tobacco use, however occasional, which is defilement of the body, where one can be disfellowshipped. But, soon I will find the moxie to overcome weakness and step forward.
Thanks for your attention.HI! Thank you for chiming in about your experience with witnesses. I will address you points one at a time. I am asking questions rhetorically so please don't think I'm trying to be rude or sarcastic.
7. I was a Baptist once and the Pastor asked for volunteers to canvas the community with information about the 'Good News", nobody had the time. Well, these folks organize their ministry every week. These people walk the talk and I don't see that very often.
I'm sorry but being "Baptist" means nothing anymore than being JW, SDA, Buddhist, Methodist, etc. Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. The Pastor obviously had no teaching going on. He might not have known any Scripture himself. Many look at the pastorate as a job.
You can't tell the Good News if you don't know what it is. It sounds like they had you "join" church. Did JW tell you any Good News?
Did you get any closer to God by studying with them?Yes, I got closer, absolutely and began to understand the true nature of the sacrifice. I am not extolling the virtues of any one faith nor dismissing out of hand any other such faith or belief. I share my opinion and point of view only, never to proselytze. We all have to come to the truth and be convinced on our volition, there is no joining in that sense.
I think it was your comment about celebrating Christmas. People use Christmas for a variety of reasons.
The birth of Christ was celebrated (This is not about December 25. It is about the event of the birth of Jesus) I'm giving one and can provide more but I don't want to write to much.
Luke 2:13-20King James Version (KJV)
13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
15 And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.
16 And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger.
17 And when they had seen it, they made known abroad the saying which was told them concerning this child.
18 And all they that heard it wondered at those things which were told them by the shepherds.
19 But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart.
20 And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things that they had heard and seen, as it was told unto them.
Actually this is #8
I have not taken this further because I have a problem with tobacco use, however occasional, which is defilement of the body, where one can be disfellowshipped. But, soon I will find the moxie to overcome weakness and step forward.
God's commandments boil down to 2 basics:
Luke 10:27 (other references also)
He answered, 1) "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 2) 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
You can't wait until you stop sinning to have a relationship with God. He loves us and wants a relationship with us. Confess to Him that you are a sinner and invite Jesus into your heart. You will still sin; however, as you grow by studying the Bible, praying to Him and fellowshipping with other believers you will sin less. 1 John 1:9 If you confess you sins, He is faithful and just to forgive you and cleanse you of alllllll unrighteousness.
You will sin again. Then confess again. As time goes on, you will be stronger. If you go to a church that has the rules and regulations posted, walk out.Luke 10.27 is correct.
I still go to the meetings and such as positive association encourages useful habits. How far does a congregation immerse in deliberate sin go before they are no longer worthy of being the instrument of Jehovah's higher purpose? Unrepentent sinners in the congregation undermine, Al Capone was a Catholic. How many 'hail mary's did he utter between ordered 'hits'? Because of hypocrisy and lies, the Church has lost its positive influence just as salt loses its flavor. There is a standard to attain to, we look to constantly improve. JW models itself as closely as possible to the earliest 1st century congregations. Does that give it validity, not necessarily, just a fact.
If the congregation and its individual do not strive toward Christian behavior, what does it or he or she deevolve into?
Hello! Thanks for sharing your views here with us. I have a question out of curiosity. As a Jehovah's Witness, do you recognize the typical Bible as scripture, or is it different? And if so, are there certain versions or translations that are acceptable?
AshtonFirefly, thanks for asking, yes the typical bible is scripture. The New world translation does not alter the King James version. I could take the King James version in and it would serve fine when using it as part of a public talk.
Interesting! I've never used a KJV of the Bible, and I've heard very little of the New World Translation. I hold no belief system so I use any version that seems to well represent original manuscripts and original languages, and then try to supplement it with a Greek and Hebrew Bible with various lexicons. But even which ancient manuscripts to use in translation are a challenge! I used to like to use the Amplified Bible, because it has kind of a mini lexicon built into it (for the days I don't want sixteen books on the table!) but that was just the starting point. Only upon really digging into translating did I realize how much controversy goes into deciding which manuscripts to use, how to interpret certain words in various contexts, etc. I did some research on the New World Translation, and I'm surprised I've never heard much more about it. Sorry I'm rambling, this is a hobby of mine and I love these languages!
What would you say are some key things that you feel make JW belief system unique? What made this belief system appealing to you?Thanks AF, The witnesses say that their translation of the Greek and Hebrew scriptures are more accurate as to intent and meaning. Who says that the King James version (17th century?) is supposed to be the Gospel?
It is a great hobby to be immersed in foreign language, I enjoy the topic as well. This is a basically a Judeo-Christian faith, rather than its members castigating others with a holier than thou attitude, I saw reason and persuasion. The first thing that I thought upon meeting them was that their New World Translation was a fraud. God's love was reflected like a looking glass by the Congregation and its members. The eternal burning of sinners in hellfire was inconsistent with Jehovah and his dealing with man throughout the scriptures. While, I did not always understand everything they had nothing to hide from me. It was an spiritual education, not just an emotional release.I find this very interesting, particularly that you mentioned "it was a spiritual education, not just an emotional release." I love that. Too often I find that the only reason people adhere to a way of thinking is because of how it makes them feel, without any regard for using intellect or reason.
The New World Translation is definitely different than most; I'd love to look further into the particular approach used in translation. Most of the time, I was told that Jehovah Witnesses "created" a book or separate Bible, but it appears to me through research on this site, as well as through reading through some passages of this translation, that there was simply a different translation approach used, as well as different manuscripts than other translations, with the goal being, as you mentioned, that "their translation of the Greek and Hebrew scriptures are more accurate as to intent and meaning."
I went to the site you mentioned in a separate post to a hubber, and looked into the New World Translation. Lots of info! I'll have to take a few days to go through it all
The term Christian has a broad sense and a more focused sense. In the broad sense Christianity is erroneously used to denote all religions that embrace any notion of acceptance of Christ at all and covers all mainstream religions and not excluding some cults. As soon as the word gained this popular meaning of any religion containing Christ in some fashion, people like me have had to add a disclaimer to separate ourselves from this incorrect public opinion. I am a "Born Again Christian" " A Saved Christian" "A Fundamental Bible-Believing Christian." In my mind, the pure definition of Christianity should be a person that follows the very basic doctrine of Jesus and His definition of a follower of Himself. Any variation of this would be a "another doctrine" as the Apostle Paul said. And adding said, anyone varying from the doctrine that the Apostles taught, "Let him be accursed."
Christ did not throw away the writings and teachings of Moses or the Prophets, or the Psalms. He encouraged people to read, study, and apply the whole Bible in the context of Him fulfilling the Old Testament and overseeing the writing of the New Testament. To follow Christ is to believe Scripture and follow the Apostles' Doctrine as written in the Old Testament and to Believe Christ is the "image of God, bodily."Thank you nobody! Please stick around and help us have a positive discussion. I was listening to a pastor today who said Christianity is the only faith where you can ask and answer questions without fear of consternation.
"How can one be a Christian without believing Jesus is God?" Jesus said, God is the Root and I am the Vine and You it's branches. We are all connected. I believe LDS stress the God in everyone, Jesus included. The question becomes" Whether Mankind is a part of God.
Short Answer, "Yes."
We are God's Growth. We create and form ourselves. The better we make ourselves, the closer to the Creative Force. We are all connected. Do unto others as if they were a part of You, because they are.Hi Jay! I agree with your first two sentences and then got lost.
Are you saying that God is in everyone, including Jesus? I say God is available to everyone and many choose not to invite Him into their lives.
"including Jesus?" - Jesus isn't an "add on." He is the Way, the Truth, and the Light. Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
The Bible proves itself."Are you saying that God is in everyone, including Jesus? I say God is available to everyone and many choose not to invite Him into their lives."
Yes, God is in everyone and we are a part of God. There is no invitation because we are one of the same vine, substance. The root is the beginning, the vine the continuation of the root and we are a further continuation. There is no separation between God, Jesus and Ourselves. We have just not grown as much as Jesus. We are not the material, but spiritual energy.What about atheists? People who say they know there is a God but He doesn't care about us. ISIS who kills Christians, Boko Haram. By the way, these people do horrifically awful things: rape, putting man in cage and setting him on fire.
He invites us to let him in
1. Matthew 11:28-30King James Version (KJV)
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
2.
John 7:37King James Version (KJV)
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. (drink the living water which is Jesus - I'll give that verse too)
3. John 21:12King James Version (KJV)
12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.
4. ‘Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men'” (Mark 1:17).
5. “Abide in Me, and I in you” (John 15:4).
6. Revelation 3:20King James Version (KJV)
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
7. (Proverbs 8:17) I love those who love me, And those who seek me diligently will find me.
Many, particularly actors and actress curse Jesus and talk about how ridiculous it is to believe in him.
8. Isaiah 45:21b-22 And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. {22} “Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. (There is an action that must be taken to be saved - accept Jesus' salvation)
9. (John 4:13-14) Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, {14} “but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.” (Jesus is the living water that brings everlasting life to those who want it)
10. John 14:13 infamous woman at the well who had many men - accepted Jesus' living water
14But whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a fount of water springing up to eternal life.” 15The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water so that I will not get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”…"What about atheists? People who say they know there is a God but He doesn't care about us. ISIS who kills Christians, Boko Haram. By the way, these people do horrifically awful things: rape, putting man in cage and setting him on fire."
Not sure what you are asking. All evil is a projection of Man, not of God; but we are all still connected. If we were not connected to God we would wither away and die. The idea is to purify self by forgiveness and not condemning others.That is a personal philosophy Jay. It really goes off the subject of rather or not JW is a subset of Christianity. I don't know if that is a belief of JW or not but I'm using Scripture to discuss my points.
If you feel we are all connected, etc., that is your right to feel that way. "Purify self by forgiveness and not condemning others" I don't understand. The Bible talks about forgiveness but this statement does not relate.
Thank you for your input.The above is what JWs teach, so it should be on point I hoped you would recognize the teachings of Jesus paraphrased for simplicity. Here is the scripture on point.
Refer to the teachings of Jesus in the story of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32) and the Adulteress (John 8:4-11). In neither story did the father (or Jesus) condemn the person. He did Not judge.
Jesus said, "You judge by human standards; I judge no one." John 8:15
"Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get." Matt. 7:1-2.
Even while on the cross Jesus did not condemn anyone. Jesus said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." Jesus healed with forgiveness to the end. So should we.HI Jay,
I think it is on topic because it does highlight one of the teachings that is different from Christianity. Thank you for bringing it up.
I am aware of those Scriptures and know the prodigal son and woman at the well stories very well. I don't know how they support the connectedness you are speaking of.
Jesus came to earth because there was no way for man to keep all laws. He forgives people (1 John 1:9 - If you confess your sins, He is faithful and just to cleanse you of all unrighteousness).
We all need forgiveness. Some ask for it. Some don't. Donald Trump says he doesn't sin so he doesn't need forgiveness.
Again, thank you for bring it up.I am sorry, I did not include this verse. John 15:5 shows our connectedness.
John 15:5 New International Version (NIV)
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.Thank you Jay! It supports my position. This passage is Jesus (God) talking to His disciples. His disciples are people who choose to be His disciples. Without Him, we can do nothing? Yes! Because He is God. Without God we can do nothing.
What's happening is JW will lift a passage from the Bible, take it out of context and then explain it to the nth degree. That is supported by many former JWs. Quite a few are here on HP.
Commentary on John 15:5
John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches
Christ here repeats what he said of himself, "the vine", for the sake of the application of "the branches" to his disciples: which expresses their sameness of nature with Christ; their strict and close union to him; and the communication of life and grace, holiness and fruitfulness, of support and strength, and of perseverance in grace and holiness to the end from him:
he that abideth in me, and I in him;
which is the case of all that are once in Christ, and he in them:
the same bringeth forth much fruit;
in the exercise of grace, and performance of good works; and continues to do so as long as he lives, not by virtue of his own free will, power, and strength, but by grace continually received from Christ:
for without me ye can do nothing;
nothing that is spiritually good; no, not anything at all, be it little or great, easy or difficult to be performed; cannot think a good thought, speak a good word, or do a good action; can neither begin one, nor, when it is begun, perfect it. Nothing is to be done "without Christ"; without his Spirit, grace, strength, and presence; or as "separate from" him. Were it possible for the branches that are truly in him, to be removed from him, they could bring forth no fruits of good works, any more than a branch separated from the vine can bring forth grapes; so that all the fruitfulness of a believer is to be ascribed to Christ, and his grace, and not to the free will and power of man.John 15
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. ..."
I agree we have free will and we are allowed to choose to follow the good advice of Jesus. What I am saying is that we grow out of the same substance as Jesus as the branch grows from the vine. The branch does not ask to be part of the vine, it just is.
Also in this quote, The Father is not the root (as I remembered it) but the gardener. That is interesting. In this parable, Jesus is saying He and We are part of one another, But the Father is Not part of Jesus. The gardener is not the vine. I learned root, vine, branches rather than: gardener, vine, branches. Who really knows the nature of God?
My conclusion is that all men and women are connected to one another on some spiritual level and that is what JWs teach. That is why I say, "Do unto others as if you are a part of them, because they are."Jay, you said this is JW teaching. I don't disagree. I am not aware of most of the extended philosophy.
My point is that a) it is addressing Christians, b) Christians are those who believe Jesus is God and received salvation c) by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9)
Again, it highlights the difference between JW and Christianity.
It looks like we are agreeing on the differences.
Thank you Jay!
Jesus Himself said "I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you," (John 14:20 KJV). We are all part of that same spiritual Source. Jesus was a child of God-just as we are all children of God. What Jesus did, we are all being called to do and, as our Elder Brother and the Pattern, He will show us the way. In fact, Jesus is the Good Shepherd who is very much involved with us right now in teaching us about our relationship with the Creator. In discussing with God our joint spiritual nature and eventual destiny, Jesus said:
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world...That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
John 17:16, 21-23 KJV
This importance of this information, the fact that every individual is an integral part of God's creation and that we all share the same relationship with the Creator as even Jesus, will eventually transform (even revolutionize!) the ways in which we think about ourselves and treat one another.Jay, I don't quite know what point the comment addresses; however, it is clear that Jesus is not respected as God here.
1. We are all part of that same spiritual Source????
2. Jesus was a child of God-just as we are all children of God - NOT TRUE
a. Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God
b. His birth was virgin ( no sexual intercourse)
c. His specific birth was foretold in the Old Testament (none of ours were) Isaiah 9:6
He would be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father,
The Prince of Peace. (JW does not deal with this that I know of)
I don't want to bogged down my point. JW stumbles over Jesus all the time. The call Him a) a god (John 1 NWT), b) Michael the Archangel (don't know where this comes from), c) a man - regular old JoePeople have argued as to the nature of Jesus since the beginning of Christianity. So, I don't think we were meant to have a firm answer to the question. If we were, it would have been crystal clear from the beginning. I'm not a fan of JW philosophy but they have the right to muddle through the particulars just as we all do and to get some right and some wrong.
I've always found it to be sad that Christians argue amongst themselves over these things because I don't think we were meant to put such emphasis on it.Hi Live to Learn! Which Christians are arguing?
Thank you!
DianeI suppose it would depend on how you define arguing.
Hi Live and Learn
These are the basics. Christians don't disagree on them:
What Christians believe
Below is a list of some things that Christians believe:
God created all that is seen and unseen
Jesus is the Son of God and is One with God
Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary
Jesus suffered and was crucified
Jesus died and was buried
Jesus rose again (the Resurrection)
Jesus ascended into Heaven
Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead
People who repent their sins will be forgiven
Anyone can have salvation
John 3:16 (NIV): "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
There may be minor things they do by denomination - church on Sunday only, no instruments, how they dress - but not the basics
http://about-jesus.org/cbasics.htmSorry. All Christians do not agree on all of those points and disagreement on any does not make anyone less Christian.
Which ones are you speaking of? I don't know about individuals. I'm speaking of denominations within the Christian faith.
There are people, like I've said before, that join a group but don't necessarily believe what is taught. They are there for "social" reasons.
Which denomination are you speaking of?
Thank you!
DianeI know a lot of Christians. I don't think that anyone has to believe what anyone 'teaches'. I put that in quotation marks because there are a lot of people out there attempting to teach their beliefs; but on what authority? They don't have a formal education in theology. They have no education to speak of in any other branch of study. They are simply people who like to stand up and quote Bible verses and hope to be perceived as some mouth piece of God. But, the fact that someone doesn't buy what they are selling doesn't imply to me that they are in a particular congregation for social reasons. They could be, but the simple fact of having thought the whole thing through and drawing a different conclusion from someone else does not negate the value of that opinion, the validity of that opinion or the truth contained in it. Going into a house of worship to pay respect to one's Maker does not mean one has to agree with any other person there for the same reason.
The truth of the matter is that Jesus didn't write a word. And, no one has given us any reason to assume that the gospels were inspired writings by God. They were simply people writing about their experiences with Christ, or in the case of Luke, attempting to give an account of his time with us. And, trying to make some reason of that experience.
Different conclusions can easily be drawn from the information supplied through the gospels. I doubt you and I would see eye to eye on much of what the meaning of it all is, but I am no less Christian than you are. To be honest, I don't consider any of your basics to be of much importance, in the grand scheme of it all and I have always considered attempts to forge a consensus on those questions to be counter productive. To hammer out a consensus and write it in stone inhibits the individual from thinking for themselves and coming to the conclusions which can make them better people. And, to me, that is the power of Christ. He challenged people to think, to understand the what and the why. I assume if he was an advocate of basic beliefs everyone should agree on he would have written some stuff in stone for us.Live, I realize that people talk about things that they have not been trained in.
Bible study materials I refer to are written by PhDs from well known theological school. I have sat under teachings of Dallas Theological Seminary pastors. DTS is the Stanford, Harvard, or MIT of theology. Christians are commanded to study the Bible and share with others. We are not to force ourselves on anyone. What you are saying about a "lot of Christians" may be true. However, Jesus is our example. Each person is responsible for him/herself.
Christians believe the Bible to be the inerrant word of God. To quote a non-biblical source (wikipedia)
Biblical inerrancy, as formulated in the "Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy", is the doctrine that the Bible "is without error or fault in all its teaching";[1] or, at least, that "Scripture in the original manuscripts does not affirm anything that is contrary to fact".[
We are not keep pattern what we do after "a lot of Christians" but to look to the Christ of Christianity. Christianity requires faith in God's Word and Christ as the basis for salvation and the Holy Spirit to reside in our hearts convicting us and praying for us.
If it is hard to be, that's ok. I'm not mad at you.Not everyone agrees on the premise of Biblical inerrancy. For every scholar you might quote there is another who would argue with the conclusions of that scholar. To claim that all agree does not make it so. As I stated. That does not make anyone less Christian. The Bible was written by humans. No matter how inspired they may have been they were human. There was no finger of God carving it in stone except for the commandments. Many of the books were written in what are now dead languages. Even the most learned of individuals is grossly handicapped by that fact. Punctuation did not exist within language at one time. That, in and of itself, creates confusion. So even if the Bible is inerrant it is a moot point because there is inaccuracy in the process of attempting to understand those writings so the interpretation of an inerrant document would not necessarily be correct.
I'm afraid I see everything you are advocating as simply man's attempt to control man. It has nothing to do with God or Christ. And nothing to do with the message of Christ I found in the gospels.Have you Googled a source of disagreement? I haven't found one. I will be happy to look at what you find.
There are people that disagree with Christianity. That's true. This forum is about Christianity - not whether it's true or not but does JW meet the litmus test.
People will argue until judgment comes. I won't. I know in Whom I believe. I just wanted an on topic discussion.
Thank you everyone who put up with me staying on topic.
How about that one AF!As you suspected, yes I am still stalking this forum. I've tried to stay silent as I've had my turn to discuss. It's been difficult.
To answer your question, emoticon level pro.
*goes back to eating nachos so I'm distracted from jumping into the conversation*Thank you for the emoticon lesson. I am a quick learning.
I appreciate the level at which we had come to communicate. Just don't eat your tacos as proof of how much you love Hispanics. Please don't fall for Donald Trump!What're you talking about???!!!! Trump is an absolute saint!!!!
HA. J/k
That tweet physically pained me. It's like when you're watching the Miss USA pageant and a contestant completely embarrasses herself by pretending to be passionate about something when she's obviously doing it just to be Miss USA.
So no worries. It's just my second trimester craving of choice. I eat nachos every day. Every. Day.
Maybe we should have a thread on "Is the Bible translated correctly?" I'd have to do research. I accept it.
Should we discuss accuracy of translation? That's your area. I'd have to use Google.
But I don't mind!I hope you know the reference about Miss USA was about Trump's tweet on Mexican food? Your response went straight to translation issues so I hope you knew I was making fun of him, not referencing anything said here.
That would be an interesting forum. I kind of already did that with the word "Adam" and it's origins, you can check it out if you want. It would be difficult to have a really smooth thread like that, though; I think half the time spent would be in Hebrew language lessons. Still a good idea...Absolutely. I knew you were speaking of the idiot. Don't worry about me! I'm good!
You said early that you were not saying anything but reading.
Adam! I'll check it out. I'll respond there.Give me a link. I didn't see it on your page and did a search for "Adam" with no luck.
Well, JW do meet the litmus test.
As to the source of disagreement I don't need to google it. I've read many and agree with some and disagree with others. I have never been one who cared if there is agreement on anything because most times agreement is limited and fleeting. It serves no purpose.You have your own litmus test and that is your choice.
The vast body of learned Christian theologians believe and teach what I have outlined over the week. There are several Christians following who have commented several times.
People can believe whatever they want to believe. It doesn't mean it is write.
Some want to argue for the sake of arguing. I do not do that.I'm not certain that people argue for argument's sake as much as they attempt to correct incorrect perceptions. But, as you said, people believe what they want to believe. Oddly, many who claim that never understand how close to the source that statement lies.
Over time we become entrenched in our beliefs. It takes irrefutable evidence at that point to "possibly" change minds. It takes faith to believe whatever one believes.
Read what Jesus said. See above citations.
I did. I posted before that He is a series of I AM's. Nothing is too hard for God. Isaiah 9:6 Mighty God. I didn't add a lot of things because people don't tend to read.
Isaiah 44:6 (Jesus is Alpha and Omega - there is no God besides Me)
"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me."
Psalm 130:7-8, (Jesus is the Redeemer, He is Lord)
"O Israel, hope in the Lord; for with the Lord there is lovingkindness, and with Him is abundant redemption. 8 And He will redeem Israel from all his iniquities."
Rom. 10:13 , (salvation is in Him ONLY - Does say call name of Michael the Archangel)
"for 'Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.'"
Michael the Archangel
I have found not one Michael the Archangel is Jesus reference.
Of the many things about who He is, He is not Michael the Archangel.
I think we have about killed this subject.
JC: John 8:15 speaks of "human standards!" Jesus Christ was in the flesh; therefore, speaking from a "human's" point of view. We (man) should not judge, but HIS WORD can! Matthew 7:1 is an "imperative sentence" which means the word "you" is understood; otherwise all of the following verses would be "A LIE!" Amos 5:14-15; Isaiah 8:20; 59:8; I Corinthians 1:10; 2:15; 6:15; II Corinthians 6:17; II Timothy 3:5-6; I John 4:1; Malachi 3:18; my favorite I Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment MUST begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" What about Revelation 2:2 and the Book of Judges? Better yet, I Corinthians 6:3 says "Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?"
Don't let "teachings" fool you!
"STUDY" (II Timothy 2:15)!
I haven't read through the thread so I may be reiterating a comment already made. I don't see any evidence to support their belief in Jesus as Michael but I don't know of any sect within Christianity which I would agree with on all of the beliefs.
The JW Bible does support that belief but I'm pretty sure that a lay person within the JW community wrote their Bible. There are several places in their text where they deviate hard from other translations. But, in their defense, they aren't as far fetched as some beliefs I hear from more main stream sects within the Christian community.I agree with you. Some groups come up with their own stuff. People should RUN from them.
It is such a simple question and I can't get anyone to point to Scriptures that say Jesus is Michael the Archangel. Going to jw.org not increase my understanding. I go there and see deviations from Scripture to suit their purpose.of course the real truth is that ALL SECTS, DIVISIONS AND DENOMINATIONS ARE A WORK OF MAN, and are ALL an Abomination because there are TO BE NO DIVISIONS (and there are none) within the true body of Christ. all who are part of the Kingdom of God work out their understanding, willing to see if one or both are wrong with their eyes on one thing--the one and only true understanding available through the Holy Spirit of God. the way of apostate men is to start or join a group that expresses their beliefs and those that follow man are led down a different path, into the kingdom of man, not the Kingdom of God.
Very well said...that is sound doctrine. To God be all glory!
So you guys are saying JW is a legitimate subset of Christianity? If so, please explain why?
That's what this forum is about. Is JW a subset of Christinity."So you guys are saying JW is a legitimate subset of Christianity?"
No, I am not saying that.
"Is JW a subset of Christinity."
No, it is not. It is a cult that claims to be Christian, it teaches a different gospel, a different Jesus other than the Truth of the Gospel that Jesus Christ is God.NO IT IS A DOCTRINE OF MAN AND not christian. though probably not much wose than all the other "denominations"
Celafoe, Why is JW not considered a subset of Christianity?
dianne THERE IS NO SUCH THING. there is only one correct understanding of scripture and none of us has it all. but scripture tells us that any doctrine other than the one taught by paul is an anethma (not correct) and that means ANY DEVIATION
Jesus is the truth, the light and the only way to the kingdom of God so any "subset" serves a different jesus. Jesus told us to beware because many would come in His name. He also said my sheep know MY voice.
scripture also tells us there are to be NO DIVISIONS IN THE REAL CHURCH
of JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY MESSIAH.
1 Cor 1:10-11
10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
any questions?Jesuit Pope Francis has likened Jesus to ISIS and that Muslims must breed with Europeans. He really is sounding like the son of Satan. Crazy times! That is a religion of false doctrines.
Jehovah Witnesses are Christians but they have divergent belief systems. Christianity isn't a monolith religion. There are many varieties of Christianity from the progressive/liberal/universalist to the fanatical/fundamentalist/evangelical. There are also moderate Christian religions as there are traditionalist/conservative/orthodox branches of Christianity. Christianity has many facets & varieties.
In essence, there are MANY BEAUTIFUL COLORS in Christianity.We have discussed this for a week. We've talked about what a cult is. Those who are not Christians have had their opinions which they are entitled to. I don't argue, not just here but, anywhere on social media or in person.
You are entitled to your belief. Thank you for your opinion.
Dianesorry but scripture tells us that your belief is not of God, there is only ONE correct understanding of scripture,
Rev 3:14-16
'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
NKJVWhy do you bring so much wisdom everytime you visit a forum thread?
Who gets to decide whose interpretation of Greek and Hebrew is correct, who says that the King James Version is infallible. There is obviously a great difference in opinion in this matter. I still say we have to investigate and discover the truth for ourselves, without coercion from annoying Christian Right and Moral Majority type folks, who insist that they have a direct pipeline to God while the rest of us are mere heathens. But, their values on the ground and the way they conduct themselves is anything but 'in accordance with Christ teachings'. Gandhi has admitted the virtue of Christ and how the world would be a better place if his teachings were actual followed and not just given lip service.
I leave it to the Pharisees and such to endlessly argue about doctrine while ignoring the weightier matters of the law?
We have war and who are the ones truly beating their swords into plowshares? Christianity, the 'so called' mainline variety is just extension of the military industrial complex as it exists in this country. The hypocrisy of such 'Christianity' is just like running after gnats while allowing herds of elephants to pass.
You had another great comment on the "white privilege" thing and I want to respond to that at my earliest opportunityJehovah's witnesses teach there is no hell. This is bad!
Someone presented this chart early on. The only people who say JWs are Christians are JWs.
From a hubber - My stolen childhood
http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy … -childhood
Jehovah's Witnesses - a harmful cult
I am now 46 years of age & I have done so much research into the history of the Watchtower Organization.
Long before Internet was readily available, I bought books, & other Bible versions. I discovered EXACTLY who C.T.Russell was (founder of the JW's), & who J.Rutherford (the next president). They were both Freemasons-which is an occult religion.
I discovered how WRONG their Bible version was (and still is). How doctrines have been altered to fit their own beliefs.
I learned all about the FALSE PROPHECIES - the dates that the 'end of this system' was to occur & didn't.
I found out that they have MISINTERPRETED the Bible so badly, hence their most dreadful doctrine of all - The denial of blood transfusions. Nowhere in the Bible does it say ''Do NOT receive blood transfusions''
The Watchtower has lied & lied & lied & JW's blindly accept all they are told because they are not allowed to question.
AND JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES FOLLOW THEIR MASTER THE WATCHTOWER NO MATTER WHATNow THIS is helpful....
This seems to be in direct contradiction to the things others have said. This sounds more like brainwashing.
The question to me would be, did the founder of JW and followers truly believe that their interpretation of the Bible was correct, or was there an ulterior agenda, with more to be gained from this organization, and slapping "Christian" and and "Biblical" on it made it look good? It makes me truly wonder if this is a genuine search for truth, or if some other sort of agenda is at work.
I cannot possibly say. It's just a bit unsettling.There are quite a few former JWs on HP. There testimonies seem to have more impact because they lived it. It doesn't seem as if they are just bad mouthing.
http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy … -Hypocrisy
Jehovah's Witnesses - A Study in Hypocrisy by Darrin Hart, JW for 40 years
"Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement, but test the inspired statements* to see whether they originate with God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world." - 1 John 4:1, NWT
I was raised a Jehovah's Witness. After forty years in the organization, over eleven of them as a congregation elder, I'm often asked what it was that finally 'woke me up' and caused me to make a quick exit from the only religion and social circle I'd ever known.Jesus was with God in the beginning of time, before God had made heaven and earth. God sent Jesus (His Son) to earth as a sacrifice to allow man to die to sin and live again by a spiritual rebirth signified by immersion baptism. When Jesus' work was done, Jesus said, in John 17: 5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." This was a part of the fervent prayer of the entire chapter of John 17 that Jesus prayed. Christians are usually baptized in the name of "The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost." Matthew 28: 19... Jesus Christ constantly prayed to His Father God until His work on earth was done and before He ascended back to heaven ...
GOD is WHAT HE is but JESUS is WHO HE is! JESUS' work is NOT over and NEVER will be. JESUS is operating in the GLORY of the Holy Spirit TODAY (John 14:26 "in my NAME") gathering THE CHURCH or you defy Scripture.
If one is baptized in the "name" of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, they have NOT been baptized in ANY "name" for those are "Titles" or "GLORIES!" Is your name father, son, uncle, husband, etc?
GET REAL!
If you continue to read "the letter" and not allow the Holy Spirit "lead and guide" you, you will NEVER "see!" There is but ONE SPIRIT Who operates in MANY GLORIES, simultaneously if HE desires!
I have a simple answer for you...Jesus said" I and the Father are one" ," I must go to the Father so that He may send another to you!" "None shall come to the Father but by Me" "If you accept these words of Mine then you accept the One Who sent Me, My Father in Heaven" , there are so many denominations, but Christ the Lord didn't come to create denominations but one Church, His Body and to do the will of God! The Angels do not bow to Angels so God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit are above the Angels which Michael is on of. People have been mislead by false prophets since Christ and well before him, and they will continue to until He comes and unveils the truth to us all! I pray those who have followed the wolves in sheep clothing wake up to the Shepherd's voice before then!
"In Revelation 2 and 3 the Word says repeatedly, “He that has an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches.” The Message version says it this way, “Are your ears awake? Then listen!” There has never been a day quite like the days we have now entered. There has never been a move of God like the one we will now see where millions upon millions of prodigals will return and where there will be millions upon millions of new converts to Christ." (Tim Sheets)
“If you have ears, then listen to what the Spirit says to the churches!” (Revelations 2:7a; GNT)
It is a wonderful time to be a part of the Body of Christ, and he is the head of the body, the church His church is the ekklesia (Greek) not churches or denominations. There is a Kingdom Ekklesia move of God...its going to get real interesting to see the transformation, I do believe.
An In-depth Study of "Church": http://www.bibletruths.net/Sermons/BTSO162.htm
“So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord–who is the Spirit–makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.” (2 Corinthians 3:18; NLT)
We shall see His Glory!I read it. There are many excellent points.
My confusion: Is the point that Christians shouldn't go to church?Depends upon the church, and if it is a man made religion to control the societies with rules and laws through dead works, or is it a part of the Body of Christ where Jesus is Lord of lords and King of kings in the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
If we belong the the Body of Christ, we are the church...the ekklesia (Greek: church). Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going in a garage makes you a car.The problem is, in every church, there are people there for different reasons. Churches have a statement of faith and a mission statement. Many people don't know them. Some people are not members but visit often. Churches have to be careful in selecting leaders and should be quick to act if the leader is shady.
A list of do's and don'ts is certainly not a good sign.
real disciples of Christ DO NOT GO to church, WE ARE THE CHURCH.
Jehovas Witnesses can be considered a cult, but not a Christian group. They have falsely claimed the return of Christ over 10 times, therefore they are a group of false prophets and know nothing of Love or (God), nor Christ and His ways.
In other words, Jehova Witness is a cult full of false prophets, or likened to a 'den of wolves' only pretending to be sheep because they follow a false christ. They have sadly been deceived and pride holds their hearts in a grip to the lies.
To our JW brothers and sisters; Seek the Truth, and you will find Him and He will take away your current burdens and be Redeemed! His burden is truly Light!Thank you for thoroughly addressing and staying on topic! Praise God!
what effect will being a JW have on their psyches, do you suppose, dianetrotter?
Kathryn, I have no idea whatsoever. What do you think?
If Jehovah's Witnesses are devoted to God and continue searching for the truth through Jesus of the Bible, they will surely find it. We can wait patiently while they fumble around, just as God waits.
As God is very patient with all of us.
If we are always accepting / loving toward others, It relieves us of the heavy negativity of being overly critical of others. True Religion does not advocate critical, judgmental inner reactions / prejudices.
(It is fine to discern the truth in an objective way.)
TWISIKathryn, I definitely agree with you on the patience. The fruits of the Spirit are: love, joy, peace, goodness, PATIENCE, self-control, gentleness, kindness, and faithfulness.
God is faithful to forgive us our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness ... when we ask. 1 John 1:9
Thank you for great on topic!Thank you too.
Now you and me have to be like saints.
Bah!It is ingrained. Christians are saints ... really!
Bible passages - I won't give them all unless you want me to
Romans 1:7 “To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.”
1 Corinthians 1:2 “To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours.”
Sanctified - set apart, saints
1 Corinthians 6:11 gives us an idea of the process as it says, “And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” Christians were washed. Washed in what? In the blood of the Lamb of God to be sanctified, made holy, and set apart for holy use.
Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com … z49Lc7rp7LWill ingrained Christians please stand up?
That won't be me!!!!! I can blow it at any time!We ALL do but Thank GOD for His "Grace and Mercy!" We are "righteous by FAITH through Christ" (You included, IF you have "FAITH!") in Romans 3:22!
JWs admit that Jesus was in heaven with the Father before He came to earth. What does that say about who Jesus is?
From JW.org
3. Jesus Christ
He is the Savior, “the Son of God,” and “the firstborn of all creation.” (John 1:34; Colossians 1:15; Acts 5:31) As a created being, he is not part of a Trinity. “The Father is greater than I am,” said Jesus. (John 14:28) Jesus lived in heaven before coming to earth, and after his sacrificial death and resurrection, he returned to heaven. “No one comes to the Father except through [him].”—John 14:6.Unfortunately the original Christianity is all but lost. When Rome took over the religion they unified all the sects around at the time and chose a hand full of documents to include in thier bible from the 400 plus documents that were used by different sects.
They concentrated mostly on Paul who had never actually met Jesus and who Mathew wrote was teaching things Jesus had never said or intended.
This was because Paul assumed he had the latest word from Jesus even though he was long gone.
Paul was half Roman on his Fathers side, and half Jew on his mother's side. He had a Roman sentimentality, and know how to get to them.
Mathew, on the other hand taught Jews, as Christianity was about Jesus as the messiah. Jesus was after all not a Christian, he was a Jewish rabbi.
The Romans had a habit of combining gods, three in to one. The Egyptians usually combined two.
So in keeping with Roman tradition Jesus became part of a trinity. This was not the case before Constantine. Jesus was not seen as god himself, but the son of god, completely separate.
For a Jew or early Jewish Christian it would have been blasphemy. There is but one god.It sounds as though you don't believe in the POWER of the Holy Spirit nor what IS WRITTEN in HIS WORD?
FIRST, the Holy Spirit "reveals" additions & deletions or "leads and guides one into ALL truth" (John 14:26;16:13).
SECOND, as GOD did with the Prophets of Old, HE used Paul as a "vessel" (Acts 19:5) also to bring us the Message of GRACE which we can not acquire "Salvation" (Ephesians 2:8-9)!
I guess you believe GOD spoke through the Prophets? If so, why not Paul? Your teachings or studies from other than Bible? Hebrews 13:8 says "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8). If so, HE did speak through Paul.
Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 8:10; 20:16 said HE would "put his laws in our hearts and minds" as HE did with Paul! Why then do you think it was Paul talking and not GOD (aka Holy Spirit who is JESUS)?
You are right in saying "There is but ONE GOD!"Well in fact I'm a student of history, not a Christian any more. So I don't for a second believe Paul talked to anything but his own guilt. He was a Roman and a Jew and he had enormous guilt for capturing Christians who were to used in arenas.
As for the trinity, you have to find it odd that Roman gods were put together as three in one, and never was this a belief about Jesus until Roman takeover, when for the first time Christians killed Christians over this very issue. The Church's didn't all accept this, and they were killed as heretics for it, most opposition to the Emperors decree wiped out.
So unless you think god told Constantine, who was the head of all Roman religions, to go out and murder the opposition, you have to come to realize the trinity as a Roman construct you were taught was the truth.
Three gods in one is not one god.Who said anything about "three gods?" I said you were right in saying there is ONE GOD! I believe I Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4:4-6!
Since you don't believe in the POWER of the Holy Spirit who can speak through anyone, who can "reveal" anything, you and I have a communication problem. You look at WORD from a "historical" standpoint pulling from every resource written by man; whereas, I accept what IS WRITTEN & believe HE will "lead & guide me into ALL truth!"And, the problem with that is that you have no idea whether your stated opinions are what you want to believe or what you have been 'led by the Holy Spirit' to believe. If you deceive yourself what is gained? If you deceive yourself and then go about attempting to push that deception on others, what will be your reward?
I can't follow this thread therefore late response! When one "BELIEVES" what "IS WRITTEN," it is their "FAITH" that makes manifestation of "Action!" I BELIEVE in HIS WORD which says HE will "lead and guide" me, therefore "Action" has been manifested in my life! If deceived, IT is according to HIS WORD and what the Holy Spirit has "revealed" unto me! For example, HE recently "revealed," Moses was the Messenger ("vessel") for the LAW (Old Covenant) as Paul was the Messenger ("vessel") for "GRACE" (New Covenant)! You see, SCRIPTURAL REVELATION not something weird I've heard in my head, but GOD (aka Holy Spirit) "revealing" HIS WORD! As long as I can "prove" with HIS WORD, my reward is GREAT!
Exactly, it becomes a manifestation. We can lead by our example. The Words are His they are not ours. I feel blessed to come to the very humble realization that we do not and could never save ourselves. We need a savior and have that savior in Jesus. Almost every other religion seems to promote a saving grace through something that we do. We cannot save ourselves. Obviously, there is nothing holy about being human. I am just holding on to Him in every situation and find it is the only peace that is there and it is always there. God is indeed so good and we are blessed to know Him.
dianne-- no hostility here. but a warning. you have judged me as not a Christian. WRONG WRONG WRONG. with your very limited understanding of scripture You need to be careful making such judgements.
I'm open to reading about possible differences in translation. However, without a doubt, Jesus is God. He was in the beginning, is not and ever shall be. That is the foundation of Christianity. The only group I know that say they are Christians who don't believe Jesus is God is JWs. There are many, many sources that detail why they are a cult.
I only know what you saw is wrong about learned theologians and the Bible. I don't know the basis other than the interlinear Bible which doesn't seem to contradict the Bible based on my research. If there is something, I'd love to hear it.As I've said, Each denomination has "half truths!" JW'S, Celafoe and I agree on baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and you don't! However, you and I agree JESUS is GOD and they don't! It's time we become "With One Accord" as the disciples did in Scripture but no one wants to present WORD which "gives the hope that is in them" (I Peter 3:15)! PRIDE?
SAD!Therefore, the Oneness Pentecostal people are simply in error by demanding that baptism be done with the formula "In Jesus name." Instead, it should be done as Jesus commanded:
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 28:19).
The proper way to baptize in Jesus' name is to say, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
http://carm.org/religious-movements/one … jesus-name
I agree with the Word of God.I don't understand your response Lee Ann. Several of us were discussing being baptist either
1) in the Name of Jesus OR
2) in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
My comments are in support of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I copy only an excerpt so I gave the website.
Can you explain your comment please?
Thank you!Amen Lee Ann!
Diane, when did father become a name? Is that your father's name? Is son a name? "In the NAME" means precisely that! You can't just read "the letter!" If you follow the enactment of the New Covenant in "chronological order," you WILL NOT find ANY of the disciples baptizing according to Matthew 28:19! Have you ever asked yourself "WHY?"
I can't follow this thread and the system doesn't take you to the latest entry! Sorry, I'm late again.
Diane, do you think JW'S, Celafoe, are Oneness Pentecostals? Neither am I! Damian and Lee Ann (although denomination unknown) believe also. Why do you think TRUTH is being "revealed" unto so many? GOD IS FORMING HIS ARMY and "IF" you continue in your "teachings," you will be LOST!
The Catholic Faith has done MOST an injustice with "teachings!"
You believe we now live under the New Covenant but MUST study Scripture and follow the "chain of events" in Bible for the enactment! In Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 8:10 and 10:16 GOD SAID "After those days" (After HE resurrects) HE would "put his laws in our hearts and minds." In Matthew 28:19 HE told the disciples (and us) to Go baptize in the "NAME" of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit; teaching them to "OBSERVE" (the disciples) everything I've commanded of you." This is a COMMAND from JESUS "to "OBSERVE" the apostles! He told us in John 14:26 and 16:13 HE "would not leave us Comfortless and would send the Holy Spirit to HELP us!" Before HE ascended into heaven, HE asked the disciples to "WAIT" for the HELP which came in Acts 2:2 on the Day of Pentecost when the New Covenant was enacted and our EXAMPLE OF THE FIRST CHURCH WAS ESTABLISHED! Jeremiah and Hebrews began when HE started "putting HIS laws in the Apostles' hearts and minds" and JESUS began talking through them telling us what we MUST do for Salvation. Acts 2:38; Acts 19;5: shows the apostles began baptizing in the NAME of JESUS CHRIST not Father, Son and Holy Spirit they way we should "IF" we live under the New Covenant!
Whatsmore, JESUS recruited Paul in the Army in Acts 19:5 when the Light engulfed him and JESUS SAID "He would be "a vessel" unto me." Thereafter, Paul began receiving "revelation" from the Holy Spirit (aka JESUS) Who talked through Paul (as HE did with the Prophets of Old) telling us what we need to do for SALVATION. Paul began teaching the "Gospel of Christ" which is the "Good News" Message of "GRACE" in which we can now be "SAVED" by our "FAITH" (Ephesians 2:8-9)!
Against everything you've been "taught?" I hope I didn't lose you? But "STUDY" (II Timothy 2:15) "in chronological order!"
I'm joining into the discussion late, but I will offer a piece of commentary. The quick summary is this: anyone can call themselves what they want, but if they hold onto the idea that Christ is not God with a firm grip, this changes Christianity (and what the Bible says) into a faith where believers cannot be saved.
First, there are many peripheral doctrines that Christians will in fact disagree on and this is anticipated by the apostle Paul in Romans 14. These differences are peripheral (e.g., what we eat, if we wear hats, Sabbath customs) because at the end of the day, they do not alter salvation (which is why Jesus came in the first place).
Second, there are core doctrines that if rejected WILL irrevocably alter the terrain of Christianity so that what you're left with will prevent salvation. Jesus not being God is one of these core doctrinal violations. This claim actually goes way, way back to the council of Nicea in 325 A.D. where an emerging theology called Arianism said, "Jesus isn't God." The council deemed Arianism to be heretical. One of the greatest works to have ever been written also was composed to disprove Arianism. This work is called On the Incarnation by Athanasius.
Third, if Jesus isn't God, then what we're saying is that God the Father looks to a non-God as someone to advocate for us and that someone not eternal can satisfy the eternal debt owed because of sin. Of course, this violates logic before it violates Scripture.
If anyone is curious what the core doctrines (five) explicated in the Bible are, there are many free resources available on wcsk.org.Yes Jesus is GOD and ONE SPIRIT! We have the "Portion" of the SAME SPIRIT (I Corinthians 12) to advocate for us because the "Portion" of the SAME SPIRIT that came to earth (JESUS CHRIST) knows what we endure because HE came in the flesh and endured the same as we do in the flesh (Hebrews 4:15)!
Case and point, Galatians 1:6-9! Adhere, or "ACCURSED!"I can't say that I disagree. I am trying to understand the point.
Hebrews 4:15 is saying Jesus is our High Priest who understands our weaknesses and temptations because, when He came to earth in human form, he experienced the same temptations and weaknesses we experienced (yet He did not sin)
Galatians 1:6-9 is talking about people being swayed by strange doctrine.
1 Corinthians 12 talks about the spiritual gifts that Christians receive when they accept Christ. (the gifts are given by the Holy Spirit)
The body of Christ is Christians (aka the church). We don't all have the same gifts. Some have more than others.
I don't understand the statements you made but I do understand the references. Would you clarify or expound please.Sorry I'm late Diane!
I agree with the Dr, JESUS is GOD! I referenced Hebrews 4:15 which confirms because "the High Priest" (GOD aka JESUS CHRIST) came in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16) which confirms that there is ONE SPIRIT as stated in I Corinthians Chapter 12! What MOST have "overlooked," is Verse 12 of that Chapter "...and so is Christ" Who has MANY GLORIES (or "Portions" of that SAME SPIRIT) as we have MANY "GIFTS" in THE CHURCH!
What MOST fail to realize (or forget) GOD is the Big O's! Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent! They have been "taught" at HIS baptism the Dove, the Voice from heaven, and HIM standing in water for baptism represents the three persons or "The Trinity" when in fact HE was not only the Father, Son and Holy Spirit at that given moment, but ALL Things and is ALL Things at ANY given moment! HE fills the heaven and earth (Jeremiah 23:27)! GOD is GOD! UNLIMITED!!!
Concerning Galatians 1:6-9, you are right in saying it is "talking about people being swayed by strange doctrine," but fail to realize "strange doctrine" is any teachings other than AFTER THE CROSS! For example, baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19)! When the FIRST CHURCH was established on the Day of Pentecost, whereafter did they apostles baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? As a matter of fact, where in Scripture did the disciples EVER baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? If commanded, why did they disobey? Anyway, is father or son a "name" even in the flesh?
Therefore, if "ANYONE" teach any other gospel other than what the apostles taught AFTER the Day of Pentecost, they are "ACCURSED" {paraphrasing Galatians 1:6-9} or "have been swayed by strange doctrine!"Your first paragraph v12 "and so is Christ" - I take that to mean Christ is a member of the body. I agree. He is the head of church/body.
1 Tim 3:16 speaks of God being manifested in the flesh (Jesus) justified in the Spirit (Holy Spirit)
I know both Scriptures are true but don't understand how 1 Timothy 3:16 confirms that there is one Spirit. Maybe it's semantics.
my comments on v12 in parentheses)
12 The human body has many parts,(many believers regardless of race/color/Jews/Gentiles/slaves/free) but the many parts make up one whole body (the church/the body of Christ). So it is with the body of Christ (the church of which Christ is the head). 13 Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles,[e] some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into one body by one Spirit (Holy Spirit), and we all share the same Spirit (Holy Spirit indwells each and every believer).[f]Diane, I Corinthians 12 is talking "spiritual gifts" afforded ALL but ONE SPIRIT "so also is Christ" MANY "GLORIES" ("FUNCTIONS") but ONE SPIRIT not GOD the Father, GOD the SON, and GOD the HOLY SPIRIT; but GOD the EVERYTHING or ANYTHING HE "Wills!"
Don't LIMIT GOD!
I pray ALL connect to that ONE SPIRIT!
Diane, I thought that I would interject, there was something on PBS a week or two ago, a documentary on the Jehovah's Witnesses. It think that it was the Point of View series? Not advocating one way or the other, just providing information. Google it, you can probably watch it online.
I didn't see Point of View. I Googled JW on PBS and saw that they ran a sexual abuse series. I also see under Independent Lens where JW beliefs are stated. The Lens article seems to be, I don't know, comprehensive and consistent with other things I have read.
Late again, sorry!
I Corinthians 12:12 "...and so is Christ" means Christ has MANY (Spiritual) Functions (GLORIES; Jeremiah 23:27) as we in THE CHURCH! Big O - "Omnipresent!" Now if you read "the letter" (READ MY ANSWER TO MY QUESTION "WHAT IS GRACE?"), you'll see it as you do! However, we must go into the "deeper things of GOD" (I Corinthians 2:10) via the Holy Spirit!
I Timothy 3:16 tells us "GOD was manifested in the flesh" and This is Only One of His Functions (Manifestations/GLORIES)! How about the Burning Bush, the Jackass, Melchizedek, even Michael the Archangel and is why JW'S know it was JESUS! THE SPIRIT OF GOD changes from "Glory to Glory" as we do (I Corinthians 3:1) "...even as by the Spirit of the Lord!"
I hope I haven't lost you?
I apologize if I falsely accused you of "deleting" my comments under your question. It was not there and re-appeared "suddenly!" Forgive me if I falsely accused!
Well said and Amen. The only way to the Father is through the Son.
They teach many things not supported by Scripture
1. Jesus is not God
2. Jesus is Michael the Archangle
3. There is no immortality
4. 144K are the only ones who will have eternal life (think I'm saying that right)
They deny the whole foundation for Christianity
Everyone has their own definition of Christian.
One might say you have to believe in the Nicean creed to be a Christian, another that you just have to believe He is our God. Another that you would need to be a part of His church that He set up almost 2000 years ago with the 12 apostles. Another that you just need to believe he lived, or was a prophet. There's probably no end to the ways people define Christian.
The word Christian actually was created by the Romans. The apostles or people that belonged to Christ's church anciently, didn't start calling themselves Christians till after the Romans labeled them as such.
Michael is def not Christ. That would mean that Christ was put on the Earth twice as a mortal, which doesn't add up with God's M.O.It is true that people can believe what they want. However, the Bible is the authority for those who are Christians. When I want to see a doctor, I don't want someone with an honorary or one who has come up with his own remedies. I look at the credentials on the wall to see where their learning comes from.
Pollsters are saying what the "evangelical Christians" are doing. There is no common understanding among pollsters what evangelical Christians are and those perpetrating have their own criteria.
God would not give us instructions without telling us how to fulfill them.
Donald Trump, boy I hate saying that name, calls Elizabeth Warren Pocahontas because he wants to "remind" people that she has claimed to be something she is not. If she is a descendant from a tribe, I'm sure there are ways for her to prove it.
I'm sorry I got carried away. People can say what they want but that does not make it so.That's true. But with language, the definition of a word, is up to whoever is speaking. Granted with 90% of words, there are no differing opinions on what those words mean, and everyone agrees they mean the same thing. Yet the devil, induces pride and confusion, and tricks people into making up their own definition of certain words like "Christian" in order to promote hatred and more confusion, so that he can more easily lead people away from Christ. Fighting about what the definition of Christian is, does nothing but promote contention 99% of the time, and this it's best to let those people alone, and focus on what really matters...the true doctrine that Christ taught, and how are you improving yourself to better follow him.
I agree with you. There is know need to fight about it. The definition should be taken from its source, the Bible.
People don't like to do that because they want to continue doing things that are inappropriate. No one needs to fight about it. There is nothing wrong with discussing it as long as there is no argument.
I let everyone know, "I may not agree with you but I will defend your right to say it."
Nothing positive happens when people argue.Oops! I didn't read completely. Doing what Christ wants us to do means sharing. It doesn't mean shoving the Gospel down people's throats.
As Christians, we should always be ready to defend our faith.
I Peter 3:15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.
I don't participate on Satanic or hubs with which I disagree because I don't want to get in an argument. I respect their right to have their space.
See Diane, you've proven my point! You look at things from a "worldly view," (must see "credentials") and not a "Spiritual view!" My father had a 3rd grade education and only relied on the Holy Spirit to "lead and guide him into ALL truth!" Who do you think have more knowledge; the Holy Spirit or someone with a doctorate degree? From your point of view, the man with a doctorate degree!
However, my father knew the Scriptures from front to back, could read the entire Bible, and quote any verse you asked of him. Man did not teach him, he received "revelation" from the Lord! I know you find this hard to believe, but "JESUS CHRIST is the same yesterday, today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8) for I've seen HIM do what HE did back then - TODAY!
How do you think Blacks (who were not allowed to read) communicated with the LORD before they were allowed education - Via the Holy Spirit! Ask the eldest person in your family!
Google Azusa Street Revival! It's that "secular Religion" has now defined the Holy Spirit as something "demonic" causing MOST to rely on "their interpretation" missing "direct communication" with the LORD! Why "Christians" are continuously being asked of Unbelievers "If your GOD exists show proof" because we are no different than they are! JESUS told us we "would do greater things than these" but no one has shown the manifestation of "these things" so if I were them, I'd ask also.
A Hubber recently asked if I had ever done any of these things to which I replied "I've laid hands on one and he received the anointing of the Holy Spirit in the service of Perry Stone (Google) which can be verified! It was not me but the POWER of the GOD working through me! I'm too old to LIE! I have nothing to gain by lying!Diane, it is not a matter of JWs and Celafoe v.s. Damian, Lee Ann and me. I am interacting with you guys on Hubpages as a very small group. For each source you find that supports your position, I can find 10, easily, that support mine.
Study v.s. Holy Spirit
We must always study the Word of God. Studying by yourself does not give you the accountability necessary to know whether you are in line with the Word of God or bending it to suit your purposes.
2 Timothy 2:15King James Version (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Romans 10:14 (we need teachers)
…13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14How then can they call on the One they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
…
Some have gift of teaching
If your gift is serving, then let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching (cf. Romans 12:7).
If all are taught by the Holy Spirit, who needs teachers
We are to study AND be taught.Black people back in the day - The Lord knows our limitations. The only thing required for salvation is acceptance of Jesus Christ's gift of eternal life. I am from 3 - possibly 4 generations of pastors.
My father had an 8th grade education. He was not a theologian but he knew that we must be born again. After I became a Christian, I would talk to him about Bible passages. He was not able to explain them and he didn't have to know. He knew enough to teach his congregation about salvation and to pray for his family to accept Christ.
All Christian are to share what they do know. We are also to pray, study and walk in the Spirit so that we grow from glory to glory.
We will never be perfect as He is perfect but we still strive to be holy (set apart) and growing stronger every day.
2 Cor 3:18
And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 13:12King James Version (KJV)
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.Where did Jesus tell us to "observe" the apostles? I tried to Google it but didn't get a result. Perhaps you are stating it in a way that I have not heard before..."semantics."
Please give Scriptures specifically about this without bringing in other comments. I get lost when I try to observe to much. I'm reading in spurts.
Thank you!Matthew 28:20 "..teaching them to "OBSERVE" ALL THINGS "whatsoever" I've commanded you..."
The Apostle Paul built upon THAT FOUNDATION = "JESUS CHRIST!"
Ephesians 2:20 "And are built upon THE FOUNDATION of the APOSTLES and PROPHETS, "JESUS CHRIST" himself being the CHIEF CORNER STONE."
Revelation 21:14 "And the wall of the city had TWELVE FOUNDATIONS, and in them the names of the TWELVE APOSTLES of the LAMB!"
TWELVE FOUNDATIONS "WITH ONE ACCORD" AND "JESUS CHRIST" BEING THE "CHIEF CORNERSTONE!"
Acts 2:42 (When FIRST CHURCH was established) "They continued in the "apostles'" doctrine" which was NOT "the apostles," but the "Gospel of Christ" since HE was "putting HIS laws in their hearts and minds" (Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 8:10; 10:16)!
I Corinthians 4:16 Paul said, "Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me." If one looks at "the letter," and have not "researched" (STUDIED) Scripture, they would "think" Paul was trying to persuade believers to "follow him!" However, GOD was "putting HIS laws in his heart and mind" and talking THROUGH Paul (via the Holy Spirit); therefore, it was actually JESUS talking!
In I Corinthians 11:1 Paul also said (Witness Scripture) "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of "CHRIST!"
Under the New Covenant, that is PRECISELY what we (as Disciples of Christ) should do! Follow the disciples! "OBSERVE" what they did and have told us to do for SALVATION!
Against EVERYTHING you've been "taught" huh? But is it not SCRIPTURE?
Galatians 1:12 "For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the "revelation" of JESUS CHRIST!"
ANYTHING other than the "Gospel of Christ" is a "subset of Christianity" (if the phrase existed) and will be "ACCURSED" according to Galatians 1:6-9!
Amen!
Hallelujah!Matthew 28:20 is God's commandment to followers to go and teach others (not for others to observe appostles.
Teaching them to observe all things
All ordinances, not only baptism, but the Lord's supper; all positive institutions, and moral duties; all obligations, both to God and men; all relative duties that respect the world, or one another, those that are without, and those that are within; and these are to be taught them, and therefore to be insisted on in the ministry of the word; and not merely in order that they may know them, and have the theory of them, but that the may put them into practice:
whatsoever I have commanded you;
every thing that Christ has commanded, be it what it will, and nothing else; for Christ's ministers are not to teach for doctrines the commandments of men; or enjoin that on the churches, which is of their own, or other men's devising, and was never ordered by Christ; and for their encouragement he adds,
and lo! I am with you always, even unto the end of the world:
meaning, not merely to the end of their lives, which would be the end of the world to them; nor to the end of the Jewish world, or state, which was not a great way off, though this is sometimes the sense of this phrase; but to the end of the world to come, the Gospel church state, which now took place; or to the end of the present world, the universe: not that the apostles should live to the end of it; but that whereas Christ would have a church and people to the end of the world, and the Gospel and the ordinances of it should be administered so long, and there should be Gospel ministers till that time; Christ's sense is, that he would grant his presence to them, his immediate disciples, and to all that should succeed them in future generations, to the end of time: and which is to be understood not of his corporeal presence, which they should not have till then, but of his spiritual presence; and that he would be with them, in a spiritual sense, to assist them in their work, to comfort them under all discouragements, to supply them with his grace, and to protect them from all enemies, and preserve from all evils; which is a great encouragement both to administer the word and ordinances, and attend on them.
It's not about us observing apostles.(1) The Apostle Paul built upon THAT FOUNDATION = "JESUS CHRIST!"
Ephesians 2:20 "And are built upon THE FOUNDATION of the APOSTLES and PROPHETS, "JESUS CHRIST" himself being the CHIEF CORNER STONE."
I don't understand what you mean about Paul building upon the foundation. (1) could be semantics
Ephesians 2:19-22 Paul's letter to Ephesians
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the [p]saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy [q]temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
The chapter is about the uncircumcized and circumcized being united by Christ (Eph 2:8-9 By grace through faith) and being one body. The apostles preached/taught and built on the foundation of which Christ is the Chief Corner Stone.
This is not about observing the apostlesMatthew 28:20 is about "observing the apostles!" JESUS spoke through Paul and told us to "Follow me (him/apostle) as he followed Christ" and again in I Corinthians 4:16 "...be ye followers of me." We are to "observe the apostles" under the New Covenant as the FIRST DISCIPLES did on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:42)!
The Scriptures about "building upon "THE FOUNDATION," is about "following or "observing" the apostles!" When we preach the same thing (The "Gospel of Christ") as the apostles, we are building upon the SAME FOUNDATION (JESUS CHRIST)!
Why are you so well versed in Bible but "pretend" you don't understand? "If your attitude, your doctrine, or your worldview doesn't line up with the Word of God, you need to change it, not the Word of God" (Andrew Wommack)!
Why don't you Google Andrew Wommack concerning "Observing the disciples?" He's got it RIGHT!The Dangers of Tuning into Andrew Wommack
Equip Blog Home / Apologetics Uncategorized / The Dangers of Tuning into Andrew Wommack
Andrew Wommack is a popular Bible teacher whose ministry is extended through radio, television, seminars, the Charis Bible College and various other extensions of the Andrew Wommack Ministries (AWM).[1] A close examination of Wommack’s teaching, however, clearly demonstrates he is doctrinally aberrant.[2]
The most controversial aspect of Wommack’s teaching is its incorporation of Word of Faith theology. As Word of Faith teachers twist Scripture to support the occult belief that faith is a force, words are containers of the force, and through faith-filled words we can speak things into reality, Wommack similarly takes Matthew 18:18 out of context as a proof text for his belief that “We can actually bind up the positive results of sowing and reaping in a godly person and loose the attacks of Satan against them by the words we speak (Prov. 18:21; Jas. 3:5-6, 9-10).”[3]
Just as Word of Faith teachers pitch various “give to get” cons as a means for devotees to obtain financial prosperity, Wommack likewise teaches, “Those who don’t give financially to the work of the gospel will not have God’s financial blessings in their personal lives. On the other hand, those who do give to the work of the Lord will have an abundant harvest of finances.”[4]
Word of Faith teachers tell us that all Christians must be in perfect health because healing is guaranteed in the atonement; likewise, Womack teaches, “It’s never God’s will for us to be sick; He wants every person healed every time” (emphasis in original).[5] Moreover, he even makes radical statements like, “The Lord never told us to pray for the sick in the sense that we ask Him to heal them. He told us to heal the sick,” and “Jesus told us to heal the sick, not pray for the sick.”[6]
The binding and loosing mentioned in Matthew 18:18 is neither in reference to the power of words to create reality, nor the commanding of demons. Jesus’ point concerns church discipline. Here the “binding” and “loosening” terms “normally used for tying up or imprisoning versus freeing or releasing, provide a natural metaphor for condemning or acquitting in a court.”[7] Christ’s command is practically worked out when Christians demonstrate truth by condemning sin and confirming righteousness.
Although Christians are encouraged to financially support the ministries of the church they attend, there is nothing in Scripture that guarantees a financial return for our donations. Rather, the Bible sets forth the general principle that sowing seeds of unrighteousness will produce bad fruits, but sowing seeds of righteousness will produce good fruits (Gal. 6:7).
The Bible also teaches that sickness and death are the normal order of things in this life, but that those who have faith in Jesus Christ have the hope of being resurrected and glorified at the end of the age (1 Corinthians 15:42-58), and that believers will no longer experience sickness, suffering, and death (Rev. 21:1-4). Jesus never made any absurd prohibition against praying for the sick; however, James, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, writes, “Is anyone sick among you? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord” (James 5:14, NASB).
Wommack’s view on private prayer languages is also controversial. Concerning 1 Corinthians 12:30, he writes, “Some people have used this verse to teach that speaking in tongues is not for every believer since the obvious answer to this question is no. However, this is speaking about the gift of speaking in tongues that operates in a church service. Not every believer will operate in that gift. But every believer (Mk. 16:17) who has been baptized in the Holy Spirit can speak in tongues in his own private prayer life.”[8]
There is good reason to believe in the perpetuity of spiritual gifts, and that the gift of tongues has not ceased with the closing of the canon; however, speaking in tongues is not normative. Scripture mentions a “prayer language,” which in a sense refers to speaking or praying in tongues (see 1 Cor. 14:14). Some identify this language with the Spirit’s “groanings” that the apostle Paul wrote about in Romans 8:26 (NASB). It is unclear whether these “groanings” refer to words inexpressible in human language or to words unspoken, and Christians disagree whether tongues can be practiced privately as well as corporately. Those who believe that Scripture allows for the practice of tongues in private or personal devotion may refer to verses such as Romans 8:23, 26; 1 Cor. 14:4, 18-19, 28. Some believe that, based on 1 Corinthians 14:19, interpretations of tongues are unnecessary when spoken privately. Scripture, however, emphasizes that without an interpretation the “mind is unfruitful” (1 Cor. 14:13-14, NASB). It is also worth noting that Mark 16:17 is not found in earlier and more reliable New Testament manuscripts, so this passage is very shaky ground upon which to establish a teaching that all Christians speak in tongues. Moreover, the spectacular signs in Mark 16:17 were wonders associated with the Apostles but one need not presume they are to be normative for all believers (cf. Acts 1-28). Keep also in mind speaking in tongues is an issue Christians can debate but over which they must not divide.
Given Wommack’s blatant use of Word of Faith theology, we do not recommend his ministry.
For further study on related issues, we recommend accessing the following Web resources:
What’s Wrong with the “Word-Faith” Movement?
Christianity Still In Crisis: A Word of Faith Update
What’s Wrong With the Faith Movement (Part 1): E. W. Kenyon and the Twelve Apostles of Another Gospel
What’s Wrong With the Faith Movement (Part 2): The Teachings of Kenneth Copeland
Answering Questions about Televangelists
The Perpetuity of Spiritual Gifts
Scripture vs. the Spiritual Gifts?
We also recommend from our bookstore:
Christianity in Crisis 21st Century
B995/$22.99
Notes:
1. AWM, “About Us” (http://www.awmi.net/about_us), accessed Sept. 3, 2008.
2. AWM., “Statement of Faith” (http://www.awmi.net/statement_of_faith), accessed Sept. 3, 2008. Cf. The Essentials of Christianity,” “CP0600 – Heresy and Aberration — What’s the Difference?” and “What Is a Cult?”
3. AWM, “Matthew 18:18” (http://www.awmi.net/bible/mat_18_18), accessed Sept. 3, 2008.
4. AWM, “Galatians 6:7” (http://www.awmi.net/bible/gal_06_07), accessed Sept. 3, 2008.
5. AWM, “Faith For Healing Is Based On Knowledge” (http://www.awmi.net/extra/article/healing_knowledge), accessed Sept. 3, 2008.
6. AWM, “Our Authority Releases God’s Power” (http://www.awmi.net/extra/article/authority_releases), accessed Sept. 3, 2008.
7. Craig S. Keener, The IVP Bible Background Commentary: New Testament (Downer’s Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1993), 94.
8. AWM, “1 Corinthians 12:30” (http://www.awmi.net/bible/1co_12_30), accessed Sept. 3, 2008.
Reference to Rev. 21:14 last sentence of description of New Jerusalem
The New Jerusalem
10 And he carried me away [g]in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her [h]brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 12 [i]It had a great and high wall, [j]with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev. 21:14 Is a very descriptive passage of what the 12 walls will look like, including the names of the 12 apostles. (There is some speculation as to whether the 12th apostle will be Judas, Matthias or Paul)
Not about us observing the apostles. Must be taken in context of the whole passage.Why did you open another bag of worms and you can't comprehend we MUST "observe apostles" concerning "Judas, Matthias or Paul?" The names of the apostles on the 12 gates is irrelevant to me (GOD KNOWS)! "Rightly dividing" HIS WORD to become "WITH ONE ACCORD" for connection to that SAME SPIRIT is my concern! If It has nothing to do with SALVATION, and IS NOT WRITTEN, GOD'S BUSINESS! I'm not trying to proclaim to be GOD, just speak what HE'S ASKED OF ME!
Revelation 12:14 was showing you how the apostles continued building upon the CORNERSTONE - CHRIST JESUS, as we should! "IF" we "OBSERVE THE APOSTLES, we have been commanded to "build on the same Foundation!"
I'm not the only one who has "taken Revelation 21:14 "out of context," concerning "OBSERVING THE APOSTLES!" IF we did "OBSERVE THE APOSTLES, building upon THE FOUNDATION, is precisely what we should do! How can anyone call themselves "A DISCIPLE" and not do as they did after JESUS resurrected? How can anyone call themselves "A DISCIPLE" and they don't "build on the same Foundation" as they did? How can you do this without "OBSERVING THE APOSTLES?" GOD! If one is an Alpha (Sorority) don't they "OBSERVE" others? Don't they go by established rules? Don't they do as other members do? Why is being a Disciple so different? (Maybe you can understand "carnal" things?) They "build upon the same foundation," don't they?
Concerning "Spiritual things," we MUST also! GOD told us under the New Covenant HE would "put HIS LAWS in our (apostles too) hearts and minds" but NO ONE BELIEVES! When Paul talked, it was JESUS talking through him as HE did with the Prophets of Old! Why do you think the majority of the New Testament was written by Paul? GOD WROTE IT - THROUGH PAUL!
Diane, if we don't "OBSERVE THE APOSTLES," we DON'T "OBSERVE GOD" and CANNOT be HIS DISCIPLES!
Following Paul - ONLY because he follows Christ
John 13:15
…14So if I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. 15I have set you an example so that you should do as I have done for you. 16Truly, truly, I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.…
1 Peter 5:3
not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.
(We all have responsibility to be examples of Christ)
1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.
Ephesians 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us…
Romans 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be like minded
further verses on Christ, our example
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/C … ur-Example
Only use Paul as an example BECAUSE he follows Christ. After salvation, Paul's life is about Christ. We should all be examples of Christ and not bring shame to our Lord.John 13:15
…14So if I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. 15I have set you an example so that you should do as I have done for you. 16Truly, truly, I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.…
Neither Paul nor I are "...greater than the one who sent him!" What are you implying, I'm greater than GOD? Get Real! I'm only doing what HE asked of me "...giving TRUTH in LOVE" (Ephesians 4:15)!
1 Peter 5:3
not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.
(We all have responsibility to be examples of Christ)
Christ told TRUTH! I give WORD which is TRUTH (John 17:17)!
1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.
Jesus walked in TRUTH! I give WORD!
Ephesians 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us…
What is love to you Diane? I can tell you what JESUS said "If you love me, feed my sheep" (John 21:17)!
Romans 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be like minded."
"Patience?" I've responded and commanded, yet been ridiculed, called incoherent, and GOD knows what else, but who cares? My job is to preach the gospel, no matter!
further verses on Christ, our example
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/C … ur-Example
Only use Paul as an example BECAUSE he follows Christ. After salvation, Paul's life is about Christ. We should all be examples of Christ and not bring shame to our Lord.
Girl, you don't believe New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 8:10; 10:16)? I guess not if you think JESUS was not speaking through Paul! If "bringing shame to our Lord" is REPEATING what HE HAS SAID, I guess I do! You call it "shame" because you've NEVER been exposed to TRUTH, just "teachings!"
Diane, OH LORD, you are FIRMLY "rooted and grounded" in man's "teachings! It doesn't matter if you can find "1000+" (and Scripture says there would be MORE unbelievers than believers (Matthew 7:13) to believe what you've been "taught," it doesn't align with Scripture!
Why did the disciples do it (Acts 2:42)? Why did Paul ask us to do it (I Corinthians 4:16; 11:1)? Why did JESUS command us to do it (Matthew 28:20; "OBSERVE")?
Why would you say "out of context" when we are to build upon THAT FOUNDATION - "JESUS CHRIST" as Scripture tells us? I Corinthians 3:11 "For other FOUNDATION can no man lay than that is laid; which is JESUS CHRIST!"
Since HE commanded us to "OBSERVE" the apostles (Matthew 28:20), Paul asked us to follow him (I Corinthians 11:1), the disciples followed him (Acts 2:42), IF disciples of Christ, why are we not "continuing in the apostles' doctrine," (Acts 2:42) as the "initial" disciples did, "OBSERVING" ALL THINGS commanded (by JESUS) of them?
You can use all that fancy seminary "teaching" you like, but it defies the WORD of GOD! I say as Paul "But though I be rude in speech, yet NOT in knowledge; but we have been thoroughly made manifest among you in all things."
Concerning "The Communion:" READ HEBREWS CHAPTERS 7, 8, 9 = 'CHRIST HAS DONE IT ALL!
I Corinthians 11:20-22 "When ye come together therefore in one place, this is NOT to eat the Lord's supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunketh. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not!"
Yes Diane, but what IS WRITTEN is the ONLY THING that matters, not what I believe or you believe but what IS WRITTEN!
One MUST NOT allow "teachings" contradict the WORD of GOD! If Jeremiah and Hebrews said there would be a New Covenant which "put laws in hearts and minds" and we find that to be TRUE in Scripture, we MUST then find out who, what, when and why it was enacted in Scripture! Come on now "research" ("STUDY")!
If one follows the "chain of events" (chronological order), you will find JESUS gave us instructions of how HE would not leave us and HE would send HELP (John 14:26; 16:13), HE commanded us to baptized in the "NAME" of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19); HE commanded us to "OBSERVE" the apostles (Matthew 28:20); HE commanded us to "WAIT" for the HELP HE had "Promised" (Acts 1:4); HE explained What the HELP was - "POWER" (Acts 1:8); HE sent the HELP (Acts 2:2); then REAL DISCIPLES followed the Apostles (Acts 2:42)! HE then chose Paul as "a vessel" to talk for HIM by "putting HIS laws in his "heart and mind" to deliver the Message of the "Gospel of Christ" so we could be SAVED by "GRACE" through our "FAITH" (Ephesians 2:8-9)!
PLAIN AS A NOSE ON YOUR FACE "IF" one follows the "chain of events" in Scripture and not adhere to "teachings!"
Jesus Christ Is God. There is not trinity-that's catholic misconception. One God, His name is Jesus. 3 persons in one is false! Blasphemy!
Amen Lee Ann! MOST "say" Jesus is God but misinterpret Scripture! IT has not been "revealed" to them that there is ONE SPIRIT "...the SELFSAME SPIRIT..." (I Corinthians 12:11) "...dividing to man (as HE divides HIMSELF) severally as HE will." The reason I say is because the next verse says "...so also is Christ!" What part of that don't they understand? "GOD is a SPIRIT" (John 4:23) Who "divides HIMSELF severally as HE wills!"
They LIMIT GOD! GOD is "I AM" - THE UNLIMITED! You can't place a number (3 persons) on HIM for HE "fills the heaven and earth" (Jeremiah 23:27)!
Yes, BLASPHEMY!For clarification, I understand this to me that God changes into the Son or Holy Spirit or Father at different times.
Jesus Is GODHEAD BODILY. For in Him dwelleth All the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2;9
I believe in God in 3 persons
Colossians 2(9) In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
1 – In Him (Jesus)
2 – dwelleth (abides)
3 – all the fullness (asserts the deity of Christ)
4 – Godhead (Romans 1:20 his eternal power and divine nature; essential being of the nature of God)
5 – bodily – literally
Colossians 2 is addressing heresy and telling people not to be fooled. It does not say that Jesus is the Father and Holy Spirit also.
Father Son and Holy Spirit participated together in
1. Creation
John 1:1 speaks to Father and Son “the Word was with God”
Genesis 1:1 and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters
Psalm 33:6 “By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all the host of them by the breath [Spirit] of His mouth.”
2. Baptism of Jesus (all 3 separately participated and identified)
a. Jesus baptized – Matthew 3:13-15
b. Holy Spirit descended – Matthew 3:16b
c. Father spsoke – Matthew 3:17
Matthew 3:13-17
The Baptism of Jesus
13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”I Corinthians 5:8
But to us there is but ONE GOD, the Father, “OF” whom are all things (CREATOR “OF” ALL THINGS; Burning Bush, Jackass, JESUS CHRIST; “WHATEVER” HE “Wills” via DIFFERENT “GLORIES”), and we in [SPIRIT with] HIM (John 4:23-24); and ONE Lord Jesus Christ [SAME SPIRIT Who came into sinful world (I Timothy 3:16), and is our “Lord” as we are HIS servants] “BY” whom are all things (HE DIED so “BY” HIM are “all things” for us), and we “BY” HIM (Since HE shed HIS BLOOD and gave us the “Gift” of GRACE, can receive SALVATION which is “all things” to us)!
GOD RULES! HE CREATED EVERYTHING! Not only what man refers to as “The Trinity,” but ALL THINGS! HE (THE SPIRIT) “manifested “HIMSELF” in the flesh” (I Timothy 3:16); and that “SELFSAME SPIRIT” (I Corinthians 12:11) “…worketh that SELFSAME SPIRIT, dividing…” HIMSELF (“GLORIES”) “…severally as “HE WILLS!”
I Corinthians 12:12 “…so also is Christ” tells us this! Now, you can say “out of context” because I Corinthians 12 talks of “Spiritual gifts” of the members of THE CHURCH, and it is, but there’s a Message within the Message (Matthew 13:10-13)!
I Corinthians 2:10-16 “But GOD has “revealed” them unto us by his Spirit: for THE SPIRIT SEARCHEST ALL THINGS, YEA, THE “DEEP THINGS” OF GOD. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of GOD knoweth no man, but the Spirit of GOD. Which things we also speak, NOT IN THE WORDS WHCH “MAN’S WISDOM TEACHETH,” BUT WHICH THE “HOLY GHOST” TEACHETH, COMPARING SPIRITUAL THINGS WITH SPIRITUAL. But the natural man RECEIVETH NOT the things of the SPIRIT OF GOD: FOR THEY ARE “FOOLISHNESS” UNTO HIM: NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, BECAUSE THEY ARE “SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED!” But he that is “spiritual” JUDGETH ALL THINGS, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But WE HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST!” Hallelujah!
Diane, there is NO TRINITY! The “Trinity” is some “man-made” concoction by SATAN (“Catholic Faith”) to LOSE SOULS!
Concerning the Holy Spirit, If JESUS SAID “…the Father will send “IN MY NAME…” that’s enough for me! The Holy Spirit’s NAME is JESUS which HE sent (“…but if I depart, I will send HIM unto you.” John 16:7) on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:2)!
Father and Son is the SELFSAME SPIRIT of GOD Who manifested HIMSELF into the “GLORY” of JESUS CHRIST; Who “divided HIMSELF severally, as HE WILLED” and sent that SELFSAME SPIRIT in the “GLORY” of the Holy Ghost!
One should ALWAYS remember, GOD “divides” HIMSELF “severally” as HE “WILLS,” then “MAYBE” they will understanding the ALMIGHTY “I AM!”
How then can they LIMIT “GOD” to “three” (“Trinity”=3 gods) or “two” (“Father and Son”=2 gods)? Did HE not ask in Jeremiah 23:27 “Do not I fill the heaven and earth?” “Dividing HIMSELF “severally” as HE WILLS” is how HE can be in each who “BELIEVE” on HIM throughout the world!
My heart breaks!
In him does dwell the fullness of the Godhead bodily, which includes "me!" For I'm a member of the Body (I Corinthians 12)!What part of "DIVIDING HIMSELF "SEVERALLY" (MORE THAN "3") as HE PLEASES" don't you understand which is MORE than "three?"
Why do you LIMIT GOD to "three?"
It's hard to get "teachings" out of one's mind! GOD "fills the heaven and earth" in ANY form, at any TIME (simultaneously if HE WILLS as at HIS baptism & don't forget in John too), to accomplish HIS WILL!
- calculus-geometryposted 7 years ago
0My view, as a completely non-religious person, is that if you follow some belief system involving Jesus and you call yourself a Christian, then you are a Christian. It doesn't require consent or agreement from other people who also call themselves Christian. Religion is essentially an activity conducted in one's own mind and doesn't need external adjudication.
you have certainly given proof that you are a non Christian
"That at the name of JESUS (not at the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, but at the name of JESUS), every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth and things under the earth" (Philippians 2:10)!
Why? Because JESUS "died" for us, shed his blood for us, sent us HELP, and gave us the "gift" of GRACE whereby we can be SAVED through our FAITH (Ephesians 2:8-9)!
Not only "three," but MORE and I'm included in the Godhead bodily for I am a "member of HIS body" (I Corinthians 12)!
"… they say, that Jesus is Michael the Archangel." I never knew this!!!!
This is misinterpretation in my view.
But each to their own. If you don't like it, don't accept it, move on! Why this discussion? Find your own happiness within / God and forget the rest!!!!
When they come to your door, just tell them you already have your own understanding of reality. If they do not respect that response, just say you are busy. Thats my advice. Who cares if they are a "subset" or not? If they say they are Christians, they are. You accept them as people, but not their style/method/mode of worship for yourself.
TWISIWhat does TWISI stand for? I have wondered a few times and didn't ask.
That is my concern about JW. The foundation of Christianity is that Jesus is God. There are Scriptures to support that. I ask JWs to show me Scriptures that say Jesus is Michael the Archangel. It does matter greatly to Christians.
Celebrating Christmas is not in the scripture either, but you probably do that. Doesn't the Bible tell you to take the plank out of your own eye first?
I do not celebrate anything which Jesus did not tell us to do- Only "do this in remembrance of me" there is NO OTHER CELEBRATION IN THE NT
Give Scripture where the apostles (under the New Covenant) "Did that in remembrance of him?"
If they did, they defied Hebrews 7, 8, & 9!
Have you not read I Corinthians 11:21?Celafoe: I asked Diane "What NAME was she baptized?" NO RESPONSE!
I asked you to "Give Scripure where the apostles (under the New Covenant) "Did that in remembrance of him? and "Have you read I Corinthians 11:21?" NO RESPONSE!
BOTH "defy" Scripture, yet you are not a "subset of Christianity" (IF such a phrase existed!)?
DEFIANCE based on I Peter 3:15 "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and BE READY ALWAYS to give AN ANSWER to EVERY MAN that ASKETH you a REASON of the HOPE that is in you with meekness and FEAR."
Why do you think you are more righteous than JW'S when you "defy" HIS WORD?
Ashamed? "WHOSOEVER therefore shall be "ashamed" of me and of my works in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be "ashamed," when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."
OR Pride? Proverbs 8:13 "The fear of the LORD is to HATE EVIL: "PRIDE," and "arrogancy," and the "evil way," and the "forward mouth, do I HATE!"You have your opinions. The point of being a messenger is to make an impact on peoples lives. At the end of the day, we should all be able to say that we patiently and lovingly shared God's Word and planted seeds.
"My "Opinion? Did I not give Scripture? You continue to be "rooted and grounded" in "teachings!" It would have been better to say (Acts 17:1) Let me "Search the Scriptures to see if these things are so" rather than "That's your opinion!" "The point of being a messenger is to..."Preach the WORD, be instant in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort will all longsuffering and doctrine" (II Timothy 4:2), whether one "accepts" or not!
"I planted the seed (With love)...but ONLY GOD can give the increase" and is why you would have been better saying "Let me search the Scriptures!" However, GOD SAID in II Peter 2:21 "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."
Amen!Yes, your opinion. All believers are indwelled by the Holy Spirit. It sounds as if you believe that the Holy Spirit tells you things and it is your assignment to tell everyone else.
It sounds like an oxymoron. "Don't believe in men! Believe me! I get my information from the Holy Spirit."
If your belief is the case, it is important that you make sure you speak to people in a way that they will understand. It is what is "understood" that is important. You use caps which is a sign of ranting, anger or preaching. You don't address the issue head own. You make accusations and then string a lot of Scriptures together which really don't support your point.
I will not continue down this road.You are both believers in Christ and it is obvious. There are not enough of us in this world. Perhaps the focus should be on the extremely all important similarities. You are both daughters of our a God. Jesus came and saved both of you. Focus on the good.
Be blessed.Diane, not a oxymoron! Don't believe in "me," believe HIS WORD! "Search the Scriptures" rather than saying "That's your opinion!"
How can they be "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" if Scripture says "If they preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL (than the "Gospel of Christ," AFTER THE CROSS which includes baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus), they are "ACCURSED" (Galatians 1:6-9)! I didn't put IT there! Why get angry with me? "Have I become your enemy because I tell you the TRUTH" (Galatians 4:16)?
You can say I "think" the Holy Spirit only talks to me, but I GIVE SCRIPTURE! It's not as though I "added or deleted" ANYTHING as the Catholic Faith has done!
I speak IT in a way they can understand, it's just they have been indoctrinated by FALSE TEACHINGS and do not have "ears to hears" or "eyes to see!" They have the same attitude as you, "That's your opinion," when "IT IS WRITTEN!"
If one was TRULY interested in seeking SALVATION they would "research" HIS WORD as indepth as you "researched" JW'S beliefs! Which is more important "Working out "your own" SALVATION" (Philippians 2:12) or discrediting one's belief! When I give Message, it's for ALL and they read but whether they "accept" or not ("STUDY") is up to them for we must ALL "Work out "our own" SALVATION!
I'm "addressing the issue head on!" Oh, but yes, the Scriptures I put together really support my point," but you don't wish to accept the "Gospel of Christ;" therefore, "ACCURSED" and I didn't put IT there!
If one doesn't live under the New Covenant (which includes being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ), no matter how elegant one speaks, no matter how educated they are in Scripture, no matter what "they feel" is right, no matter what you've been "taught," one may as well say "CHRIST DIED IN VAIN" (Galatians 2:21) and has "become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law (or not under New Covenant); ye are fallen from "GRACE" (Galatians 5:4)!
"STUDY!"
Noreen-- of course I have read the scripture you reference. The difference is I UNDERSTAND IT , YOU DO NOT.
That verse can not undo the odinance that CHRIST HIMSELF PUT IN PLACE. YOU ARE DECEIVED.
as are most people on here I am fed up with your un-Godly attacks. you DO NOT CORRECTLY UNDERSTAND much of scripture. your methods and demeanor are definately not one of a true disciple of Christ. you are thoughless and even cruel in your approach and delivery. you ARE NOT A MESSENGER OF THE TRUE CHRIST.
I rebuke you in the name of Christ.
you are an offense to the work of Christ. your false accusations, your curses (yes you have been caught pronouncing curses on people that disagree with you.) you are telling what other people believe (wrong more times than you are correct. ) it time for you to SHUT UP and sit until you have a correct understanding of scripture.Well, explain IT to me Celafoe! I don't see you giving Scripture justifying your position! Explain where under the "New Covenant" JESUS SAID "Do this in remembrance of me!" I see where Paul said JESUS "revealed" to him what happened on the night of HIS betrayal (I Corinthians 11:23-34), but how does one eat and drink of the Lord "IN THE SPIRIT?"
Explain why Hebrews 7:8, 9, 10 said "CHRIST HAS DONE IT ALL" and "NO MORE SACRIFICES!" Explain what Hebrews means since I can't "comprehend!" Explain what I Corinthians 11:20-34 means, please! Did JESUS not say "HE WAS THE BREAD" (John 6:35) and "HE IS THE DRINK" (John 4:14)? Did not Hebrews say our "rituals and sacrifices" were "DEAD WORKS" (Hebrews 9:14)? Why does Hebrews 9:1 say "...the FIRST COVENANT had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary..." (v8) "...the way into the holiest of all WAS NOT YET MADE MANIFEST..." (v9) "Which was a figure of the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; (v10) Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and CARNAL ORDINANCES, "imposed" on them until the time of reformation!"
See, Celafoe! "CARNAL ORDINANCES" are GONE under the New Covenant! The New Covenant is ALL SPIRITUAL! We don't "DO!" Why do you think Ephesians 2:8-9 IS WRITTEN? IT says "For by GRACE are ye SAVED through FAITH; and that "NOT OF YOURSELVES:" (Did you hear? "NOT OF OURSELVES!") it is the GIFT of GOD: (v9) Not of WORKS (HEAR?), lest any man should boast!" "JESUS HAS DONE IT ALL" (Romans 5:17)!
The GOOD NEWS is just too GOOD to be TRUE, isn't IT? MOST want to continue to hang on to the Old Covenant "laws" and "ordinances" (Galatians 4), but the New Covenant is ALL "SPIRITUAL!" GOD now "puts his LAWS in our hearts and minds" (Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 8:10; 10:16) via the HOLY SPIRIT (John 14:26; 16:13)!
When we "commune with GOD," we're "WORSHIPING HIM in SPIRIT and in TRUTH" (John 4:23-24) be it via "studying, singing and praying, teaching, preaching, fasting, etc!" "And whatsoever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus" (Colossians 3:17)!
Have I ever "cursed" anyone? Did I not give GOD'S WORD that "CURSED" you and anyone else that doesn't live Under the New Covenant? Why call me GOD? YOU KNOW I'm not WORTHY! I only give HIS WORD! Why call HIS WORD "me?"
It's hard to come from under the Old Covenant, isn't it? Remember John 4:23-24 "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the TRUE WORSHIPERS shall worship the Father in SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH: for the Father SEEKETH SUCH to worship HIM!" (v24) GOD is a SPIRIT: and they that worship HIM "MUST" worship HIM in SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH!"
AMEN!
Actually the scriptures DO NOT say Jesus is God, they say He is the Son of God
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1
Comment: Jesus is the Word. JW Bible says the Word was "a" god. Very siginificant. That indicates that there is more than one God.
“I and the Father are one.” 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” John 10:30-33
Comment from patheos.com: Can you get any more specific than this? Jesus, in a very straightforward and blunt way, affirms His deity by saying “I and the Father are one.” Still don’t buy that’s what he was saying? Well, just look at the crowds response. The religious leaders knew what Jesus said—which is precisely why they wanted to stone Him!
“For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.” Colossians 2:9
Comment: deity=God
The reason the Jews wanted Him killed is because he "claimed" to be God. He was worshiped as God. He talked with authority like God.
There are other Scriptures that attest to Jesus being God. I'd like to see the ones that imply that He is Michael the Archangel.Diane, 'If you have seen me, you have seen the father" in scripture said by Jesus does not have to be taken literally. When you see Jesus, you see the Father in all he is and does, his personality imitates that of his Father, perfectly. There are many more scriptures that support 2 separate entities, than two parts of the same.
Help me with this one, was it not Jesus that said, "why do you call me good, when it is only the Father that is truly good" ? Now, I have it, Luke 18.19...John 1:1 states that the Word (Jesus) was in the beginning (always was)
Ex 3:14 14God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.'"
Moses spoke to the Son (Jesus) who is I AM. I AM (the Word) always existed before the creation and helped in the creation. He was given the Name of Jesus when He took human form.
I AM is very, very significant
John 6: 35, 48 I am the bread of life
John 8: 12, 9:5 I am the light of the world
John 8: 58 Before Abraham was, I am
John 10:9 I am the door
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
John 11:25 I am the resurrection and the life
John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine
Rev. 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
OT
Isaiah 41:4
"Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.'"
I have more but don't want to write too muchTo respond to Luke 18:19
Luke 18:19 was a rhetorical question. Jesus was humble. He never came out and said "I am God." He did show the evidence of being God and they saw it and knew it.He had "all authority on heaven and earth" given to Him by the father. if we see Him we see the father because they are of one SPIRIT. in other words Jesus action areas His father's. He is the son, but not God. God has given Him the use of all that is His. BUT HE IS THE SON OF GOD, NOT GOD. He never said He was God and ALWAYS POINTS us to the Father. If they were one He could not sit at the right hand of the Father. yu cannotrey on bibles for full truth as they are all somewhat corrupted by the beliefs of those who translated them. must refer to orginal language for correct interpretation. a bible IS NOT THE WORD OFGOD, it is a translation of the word of God done by men so is not fully reliable
Interesting Celafoe! Do you know who is selling copies of the Word of God? How do we authenticate it?
I was taught that you interpret unclear passage in the light of clear passages. If there is an untruth in the Bible, then the whole Bible is wrong. It's like someone pouring a teaspoon of kerosene in a gallon of koolaid. There is no way to separate it.
I'd like to see what is considered the original.Sorry but Celafoe's interpretation really is not accurate. The Bible clearly alludes to a plural God. Back in Genesis God says we will make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness. Also the word Godhead is used. God exists in the Father, the Son and the Spirit. Just because man cannot u nderstand it certainly is no reason or reflection on God. Jesus tells us many times exactly who He is whether we grasp it or not is up to us.
Philip, have I been with you so long that you do not know who I am.
Thomas, you believe because you see, blessed are those who do not see but still believe.
God was here in human form in the person of Jesus Christ.
Jesus name in Hebrew is Yeshua meaning God saves. The Ye for Yahweh or God and the shua for saves.
A lot of the Old Testament can be traced to Moses and He wrote down what God told him. Also, why is so much history in the Bible true and some even coming to pass as we live. Many of the OT writers and profits forecast the coming Messiah. Additionally, all of the apostles except for John are more than willing to die after experiencing Jesus and His resurrection. Not a one of them denies Jesus even to save his own life. Coincidence? Not hardly.
The OT as well as the codices have been around for a very long time. Finally, Constantine in the 300's AD finally puts them together but scripture has been available for thousands of years.
Maybe it all seems so supernatural because that is exactly what it is.
Blessings to all.The Son, Jesus, the Word is the I Am, that Moses saw in the burning bush. John 1 tells that Jesus was with God in the beginning, is God (not "a" as in JW Bible), etc.
When doubting Thomas stuck his hand in His wounds because he didn't believe it was Jesus, Thomas identified Him as "My Lord and My God!"
Celafoe, you MUST think "in the Spirit!" Diane is right! JESUS is GOD! "Sitting on the right hand of GOD?" GOD is a Spirit! HE doesn't have "literal" arms! "Sitting on the right hand of GOD" means sitting in HIS OWN righteousness (Ps 41:10;48:10+)!
You MUST stop thinking "carnally" (father & son) for when we "commune" with GOD it MUST be in "Spirit & in Truth!"
The Holy Spirit is "truly reliable" though! It doesn't matter what is/was written in Hebrew, Greek, Webster, commentaries, etc., the Holy Spirit "reveals!"
My father was a minister with a 3rd grade education. He knew (could read) the Bible from front to back. Who did this? How could someone with less than a elementary education (6th grade) know this? I've seen Holy Spirit work in many lives! It "teaches" ALL things! It "reveals" things not in Bible such as addition by "Catholic Faith" to Matthew 28:19 & I John 5:7-8! Holy Spirit told me something is wrong! I hadn't studied! It "reveals" additions & deletions!
Why ALL need to go back (Is 28:13) & "WAIT" (Acts 1:4) for "revelation" of ALL things!Celafoe, I don't know why but I thought you believe that Jesus is God.
NO, He is clearly the Son of God, a man of flesh and blood as we are. very little that is taught by the institutional church is scripturally correct. The new covenant was a new beginning in every way, but that means NO CLERGY and they do not want to work for a living so they have made a new system patterned on the old testament which is gone forever. but that way they make a place for themselves, salary and benefits rather than work. and they put people into a bondage worse than what Jesus delivered us from.
if Jesus was God, his death and resurrection would not have satisfied scripture as to who he was and would have been no big deal (for God). but as a man it FULFILLS SCRIPTURE as was noted when the veil of the temple was rent at His death , thereby granting access to God for whosoeverwill.
scripture tells us God hates clergy/laity separation, ALL are equal in His kingdom. NO MAN is head (over) another man. the head of man IS CHRIST. The head of woman is man. her husband if she is married , or her father if not. yet the"evil ' clergy think they are over the saints, contrary to scripture. of course that is because of the purposeful mis-translation of parts of the bibles that they have been responsible for. declaring things that the scriptures do not.Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will [a]rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Comment - He is called Might God (not a god, but God)
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [b]comprehend it.
Comment - He always existed
There is no way to be a Christian without believing Who He is and His Word.
Let me "help you with this one." Luke 18:19 "...none good but GOD?" Because that "Portion" of the SAME SPIRIT (GOD) who "manifested HIMSELF in the flesh" (I Timothy 3:16) as JESUS CHRIST was NEVER "subjected to the world" (sin) and JESUS CHRIST was "subjected to the world, yet did not sin!" Anytime ANYONE is "subjected to the world," (even JESUS), they are "subjected to sin!" Why JESUS gave us an example, of, if I can do (in the flesh) so can you (we)!
Hi!
I hope I may interject, I was going to offer some thoughts on this particular post.
I find these two scriptures you mentioned very interesting, and wanted to give some input from an insider's perspective on why [some] scholars translate "God" in this case, as "a god."
The discrepancy is in technicalities in the way the Greek word for God (or god) is translated; specifically, how the Greek structure their sentences and use definite articles. This is not just restricted to Jehovah Witness renderings of this passage but other scholars who disagree on Greek grammatical structure. When there are problems like this, scholars attempt to use context.
EDIT: I'll start with John 1:1
The word God is mentioned twice in this verse: once with a definite article "the," and one without. The disagreement lies in why there is no "the" before the Word "God," in the last part of this Scripture, thus leading some to translate it as "a god." This is a very legitimate question and it requires some digging into how definite articles are used and how they are significant.
In order to figure out how to translate this sentence, translators have to look at the sentence as a whole, not just individual words. This particular disagreement is about the use of Greek grammar and structure. Most scholars find that the Greeks omitted definite and indirect articles (a, the) for various reasons, and that omission of either is sometimes not significant in meaning, but rather sentence structure.
Greek: Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
In English grammar, the subject of the sentence is usually close to the beginning of that sentence. In Greek this is not the case. The subject can be anywhere in the sentence and has to be determined by other means (such as definite articles or letter changes.)
Here is a breakdown. The word for God (god) is mentioned twice in this sentence: once with an article, τὸν θεόν, with τὸν being the definite article, and once without-- θεὸς. Most of the time the "subject" of the sentence is understood to be the word that ends in the Greek letter ς Both the word for "God" (theos; θεὸς) and the word for "word" (logos;λόγος ) end in that letter "ς" necessitating a different way to designate the subject of the sentence. Therefore, most scholars claim, "The Word" has the definite article "the," and "God" does not [hence explaining the omission of the direct article "the" and making it false to translate "Theos" as "a god."] However, other scholars argue that the omission of the article "the" was intentional and meant to designate generality, not to designate priority in the sentence (such as the Jehovah Witness translation,) thereby leading us to translate it as "a god." Most scholars, however, conclude that the word for "word," [logos] is given a definite article and the definite article is omitted from the word God in the last part of this verse [which is translated as "a god"] in order to designate priority in the sentence, and that the specific nature of the word for God, had already been indicated prior (by the use of τὸν θεόν.)
Adding to the validity of this disagreement is that sometimes in Greek text, the omission of the definite article DOES seem to be significant, particularly when referencing what is understood to be a generic form of the word God or god, which is used several times throughout the Bible. Still the same word, θεὸς, to reference [what is accepted to be] a generic god, because of the omission of the definite article.
So how do we untangle all these uses and figure out exactly what was being said? Context. Context only. Context in the particular passage, the entirety of the mauscripts, and their use in other manuscripts as well. This is the struggle with ancient language. We do our best to make education conclusions, but there's no one there to say "yep. That's it. You got it." We have to rely on human reasoning and deduction in order to figure out how languages were used way back then.
It's all about context, and understanding context is subjective. Hence the billion translations of the Bible.
I'd like to mention the other scripture verses you mentioned, if you'd humor my long winded ramble: You referenced John: 10:30-33. In these verses, when the Pharisees rebuked Jesus for claiming to be one with God, they used a form of the word God without a definite article, meaning that it could be, theoretically, translated as "you make yourself out to be a god." The reason it's not typically translated that way is because of context only. What's interesting about this passage is that even Jesus goes on to ask why it was such an issue that he mentioned this unity with God, and even seemed to go into a study of the words he was using and that they were using themselves, saying:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?[c] 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe[d] that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand."
This leads to the idea that maybe even Jesus got into a debate with them over his choice of words, specifically his use of the phrase "son of God" and the use of the word "god." If he wanted to distinguish himself as the Son of God, why would it be significcant to mention that these same terms were used for lesser beings? Wouldn't that undermine his statement?He appears to be making a defense as to why his words are not blasphemy, Was he attempting to clarify an ambiguity in his words or meaning? For some, this indicates that he was NOT claiming that title, but was explaining that he was using the term "son" in a different way, or that when referring to himself as a god, he was referencing a generic form. So it all boils down to--context and a best educated guess.
Also, Jesus said that he and God were one. He also used this same word for "one" when he prayed to God that the disciples be one, even as he and the father were one. This indicates that Jesus was suggesting a common cause or endeavor, not a literal oneness. So how do we determine what the meaning of "one," is, in this case? Context.
Translation is madness.
Anyway, I wanted to just throw that out there as a way of possibly explaining how these verses may not be quite so straightforward as they appear, once you delve into the intricacies of the Greek language.
Personally from my translation endeavors, I feel unsure as to whether or not Jesus himself personally claimed to be a deity, and that's based strictly on my and other scholars' findings and what I've now realized to be our limited understanding of ancient Greek (at least relatively speaking.) Being as there are others who understand ancient Greek much better than me, I like to reference their conclusions and I consider myself not even close to being an expert. Unfortunately, two different persons with years of incredible experience and credentials in translating these scriptures can come up with two very different conclusions.
Thanks for reading!I have no knowledge of Greek, Hebrew or Latin. I can handle English. John 1:1
As printed
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1 KJV
This does not make sense
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was THE God."
Learned translators have already translated it. The Biblical interpretation refers to this passage as proof of the Son's participation in the creation. I don't try to go back to any language. I just read the Bible (KJV, ESV, NIV and others on biblestudytools.org)
New World Translation (JW) changed to
1 In the beginning was the Word,+ and the Word was with God,+ and the Word was (a) god.
Critical difference
(a) god implies that there is more than one God. If Jesus was Michael the Archangel, that is a conflict with JW NWT.True, but the Bible was not originally written in English.
You are reading an English text which was translated by someone, a human being, who had to figure out using their own human intellect, how to translate it from ancient Greek into English.
"Learned translators have already translated it."
Yes, " learned translators" translate it differently. That's exactly the point I was making. There are learned translators who translate it as "a god" and learned translators who translate it as "God."
What is your reason for using one translation over another? Should it not be to adhere to one which you feel best represents the original texts? How do you determine which translation is more accurate than another one?
As I mentioned, this isn't just an issue with Jehovah witnesses. This is an issue among ALL learned Greek scholars and concerns Greek grammatical structure. Until one has knowledge of the Greek from which the English was translated, one cannot possibly really argue about which translation is more accurate than another.It's true we have to make a decision about which sources we put confidence in. There are no Christian translations that use "a" god. The first time I saw "a" god is when I was reading a NWT translation last year. My sister was studying with JWs and wanted to discuss the Bible with me. She was not aware of "a" god until I brought it to her attention. She is in Arkansas and has a NWT Bible. I had to look it up on line.
I will Google to see if I can find another source that takes issue with the translation.
Thank you for letting me know.Yes you are correct. There are no Christian translations which translate "a god" instead of "God," because a vast majority of scholars agree upon this way of translating. When I said that this is not just an issue with Jehovah Witnesses, I meant translation problems causing HUGE disagreement in general, not specifically the problems in John 1:1. Upon referencing Greek scholars I did not mean just Christian Greek scholars either.
Thanks for the dialogue!DIANNE-- Get a copy of an older version of the interlinear bible. note what the word means and then look at how the kjv people translated it. then ask the Holy Spirit to show you the correct usage.
i have assumed you are baptized in the Holy Spirit, if this is incorrect then of course you cannot see the truth and believe what you have been taught by the paid "professionals".Celafoe, Dianne has been "taught" and believes their teachings. I asked her in accordance with Acts 19:3 "How then were you baptized?" and to this date no response indicating not according to the New Covenant!
Again, MOST religions have "half truths!" JW'S have baptism right. They do believe in baptizing in the name Lord Jesus. Dianne has JESUS is GOD right! You have marriage and baptism right! That's why we MUST give WORD to prove (II Timothy 3:16) why we believe the way we believe (I Peter 3:15) IF Disciples of Christ rather than allowing "pride" enter and "deleting" the WORD of GOD or resorting to calling each other names! However, IF proven in HIS WORD "Judgment begins at the house of GOD" (I Pet 4:17)!
Proverbs 15:31-33 says "The ear that heareth the reproof of life abideth among the wise. He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding. The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honor is humility."Is there a copy of the interlinear Bible online?
I found interlinear online Celafoe. Now, I've forgotten what the issue is. The Hub Forum is "Can Jehovah's Witnesses be considered a subset of Christianity."
For a while I continued to direct people back to it. When each one starts a discussion that is not related, we get off the point of discussion.Celafoe, I did some research on the interlinear Bible.
An Interlinear Bible is the next best thing to a formal course in the Hebrew and Greek languages. Until now, however, an interlinear Bible has not been available to students of Scripture who speak English. Through the use of The Interlinear Bible, one can utilize the lexicons, word books, and other aids published during recent decades. one need only learn the Hebrew and Greek alphabets.
It is used in theology programs. There doesn't seem to be anything that is objectionable to theologians.INTERLINEARS ARE AVAILABLE and have been for many many years, you can even get one free on the internet. they are easy to use and understand.
Advantages of Interlinear Bibles
There is only one real advantage of using an interlinear Hebrew Bible: it makes reading the Bible in Hebrew seem less scary.
Some people will say that they find they can translate the Bible more quickly using an interlinear, but this is almost never the case. Instead, they are usually simply reading the translation that someone else has provided.
Comment
Last sentence says the interlinear are translations done by others also. I don't really see the benefit for using one. If someone tells me something is translated differently from Hebrew or Greek, it's better for me to look pros/cons up on internet. Strong's is considered the most exhaustive of interlinear Bibles. I use a Strong's concordance which discusses word translations a bit.
If there is something that is in dispute, I'd love to know about it. I like to be prepared for discussions.I have found Strong's to be accurate, and have been using it since about 1990 or so. My Mom gave it to me for a Christmas gift (bless her heart). I cried tears of Joy when I saw it, not knowing the suffrage before me.
Prior to Internet I used Strong's and Ryrie Study Bible. All of the books aren't necesary because of all of the resources online. biblestudytools.org is my favorite.
I just went to that site, and it says "Buy or rent this domain". Do you see that?
I have been a member of the world wide web community since about 1997 only, and when I see that its like red flag to me. Maybe that's just me because I am cautious.Sorry!
http://www.biblestudytools.com/ It's .comNo need to be sorry at all. I like that site, and am going to read the Sargradas Escrituras 1569 edition online. Spanish friends told me of things they read in ancient Escrituras (Scriptures) that was amazing to me, and I have longed to read them. Thank you very much for sharing!
That is true. I saw that you mentioned the Amplified Bible as your choice to pick up and read if you don't want to have a number of books spread out, and that is my first choose also, because it is amplified. Its a good starter bible for anyone starting studying or reading through. Judeo-Christian bible scholars and translators agree that the Amplified Bible is good (with some slight errors). But, when you study Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic and use lexicons you see a error...and know. I also love to read the King James, but its not amplified.
Hello! And yes very true.
I've always found the King James audibly appealing but I'll be honest, I get lost in the use of older English! I'm also not incredibly familiar with the source manuscripts used in this version. Is there any particular reason you like this version?My first Bible as a child was a King James so I got use to reading it. Also, because it is accurate but still needs to be studied to know what the words mean in different Scriptures, but I enjoy that. When I really began to hunger and thirst for righteousness, my sister gave me an Amplified and the Scriptures became alive to me. Later I got a Strong's Concordance and my collection of study books and translations grew from there. Its addicting when one is hungry and thirsty.
Ah yes, that makes sense. My mom had us use NIV when I was little, but I felt like it took too many liberties, once I started digging. Strongs is always a good reference for me. NT is always easier to study from a reference but I know less about Greek than Hebrew, I'm afraid. My next ambition is to study Arabic and read the Qur'an, as it and the Bible have many parallels, but life has not been kind to my free time lately
The Quran included parts of the Bible when it was written.
I use a parallel Bible and often look at multiple translations. I haven't seen anything in the translations to give me pause. Anyone want to give an example please?Some of it was. The roots of the religion of Islam is in the covenant between God and Abraham, so there are many parallels. Islam is very similar to Christianity. Some text is seen also from the Apocrypha. Some was original. Either way it's a fascinating read. I've read it only in English though.
The translations issues comes from an understanding of the original languages and how liberties were taken with translating these languages from the original manuscripts. That's why different translations came about: Scholars took different approaches.
Someone reading the Bible who has no understanding of the original languages will of course find no issue because the issue is in the translating from the originals, not in comparing different translations already provided.I don't see the similarities between the two. The Quran seems to be about the law and being a good Muslim. The Bible is about love and redemption.
I don't know anything about translations; however, I have not seen anything that indicates the Bible or parts of it are wrong. Actually if any part of it is wrong, it's no good. If anyone can show me proof that there is inaccuracy, I will no longer read it. I have to have confidence or I'm wasting my time.The only way to know if any parts of it are "wrong" is to know if its translated "wrong." And the only way to know that is to learn how to translate it. Otherwise you just take the word of whoever translated it. I knew two professors in my university who had both assisted in two different translations as scholars, and each HATED the other version, for their own scholarly reasons.
My point was that some versions take liberties that I find disturbing. Obviously the scholars doing them didn't. But they had peers who disagreed and came up with another translation, etc. I want to clarify I'm talking about translation liberties, NOT whether or not the Bible is true. Whether or not it's true is irrelevant to correct translation. Correct translation is just about how you understand Greek and Hebrew grammar. Im not a Christian, but I can still translate the Bible correctly and it means nothing to me. To have a set belief system prior to translation would in my opinion hinder an unbiased perspective.
Different versions came into being because one set of scholars decided their way of translating was "better" than another.
Yours is a personal opinion and interpretation about the Quaran which I do not share. I've read it in its entirety and find that the Quaran and Bible share similar stories about laws and wrath. Each give the same reasons for these stories of laws and wrath. Each show stories of love and forgiveness which seem to contradict themselves. Each have believers which have explanations for these contradictions They both have roots in the same belief system concerning God and as you mentioned, even share concepts. (as the Quaran took passages from the Bible.) Of course each to their own opinion though.I also want to clarify that I'm comparing the quality of different versions from a scholarly perspective. Asking to point out error in "the bible" has no meaning to me. Which version? They're all different. That was the context of my conversation with the other Hubber, as we were discussing preference of versions.
Kathryn, I have asked for direction to the verses that prove that Jesus and Michael the Archangel are the same. I haven't received anything yet. If I see something, I will let you know.
That question perplexes me, there are others more in tune with the doctrine you can ask or check out JW.org
Shouldn't there be verses in the Bible to support that claim?
There are. Read the JW literature to find them.
This is pretty standard, though - every religion justifies it's tenets and doctrine from sacred writings and/or holy men whether Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed or others. There are very few belief systems that don't.The only place this is found is in JW. I couldn’t find a non;-JW source to support it from a historical standpoint or religious standpoint.
THE spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible. However, when he is referred to, he is in action. In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons. By defending Jehovah’s rulership and fighting God’s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name—“Who Is Like God?” But who is Michael?
This counters the JW position
Where is the “scriptural evidence” for such a doctrine? In an article titled “The Truth About Angels” that appears on the official web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses (www.watchtower.org), 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Jude 9 were the only two passages listed as proof that “the foremost angel, both in power and authority, is the archangel, Jesus Christ, also called Michael” (2001).
If Jesus’ descension from heaven “with the voice of an archangel” makes Him (as Jehovah’s Witnesses claim) the archangel Michael, then does His descent “with the trumpetof God” not also make Him God? Jehovah’s Witnesses reject this latter conclusion, yet they accept the first. Such inconsistency is one proof of their erroneous teachings about Jesus.
One of the strongest arguments against Jesus being an angel is found in the book of Hebrews. In chapter one, the writer of Hebrews showed the superiority of Jesus over the angelic beings, and contrasted Him with them.
For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son”? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.” But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; and they will all grow old like a garment; like a cloak You will fold them up, and they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not fail.” But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool”? (1:5-13).
One final proof that Jesus is not Michael the archangel actually comes from one of the five passages in which Michael’s name is found in Scripture—Jude 9. According to Jude: “Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’ ” Whereas Michael would not dare pronounce a railing judgment against the devil (cf. 2 Peter 2:11), Jesus once declared about Satan: “He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it” (John 8:44). Jesus did not approach the subject of rebuking Satan with the same hesitation as godly angels like Michael. Jesus, as Lord of heaven and Earth (Matthew 28:18), boldly called the devil a murderer and liar, and even went so far as to declare that “there is no truth in him.” The Son of God obviously is not Michael the archangel.
REFERENCES
“Should You Believe in the Trinity?” (2000), [On-line], URL: http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/index.htm.
The Truth About Angels (2001), [On-line], URL: http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/199 … ngels.htm, originally appeared in The Watchtower, November 1, 1995.
The Watchtower, 1879, November.
The Watchtower, 1969, May 15.
The Watchtower, 1979, February 15.
The Watchtower, 1984, December 15.
there would be if it was true, they are manipulating scriptures in Daniel, Jude & Revelation to try to make the meet their false beliefs. just one of the reasons they have their own bible
I went to jw.org since I couldn't get specifics here. The Bible stands on it's own.
Rev. 22:18-20
18I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. 20He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!…actually this is only talking about the "book" of revelation. RE 10:2, 9, 10 and etc
you know the saying " even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while" well even the cults have a few truths. the only two that jw has are there is no such thing as the trinity and not celebrating the bastardizes heathen holidays clebrated by the other churches of men both false doctrines are thanks to the catholic churchI didn't get that Scripture from jw.org. The comment is about jw.org adding/taking away. My sister had only been studying with JW for 6 months and was thoroughly endoctrinated.
Celafoe, actually it is not speaking ONLY of the Book of Revelation! Deuteronomy 4:2 says "Ye shall not "add" unto the word which I command, neither shall ye "diminish" AUGHT from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your GOD which I command you."
It means the ENTIRE Bible wherein lies HIS "commandments!"
wow I have heard much false doctrine especially on hub pages but this one has to be the mother of all, now all you have to do is say you are a Christian and presto changeo you are one, what utter foolishness
Tell them that you are covered with the blood of Jesus! Tell them hell is real!
I would advise that you go to jw.org or speak with the witnesses when you see them again. Fyi, we did not start in the 1800s. Because of a scripture at Isaiah 43:10 after much prayer and research, we started going by the name "Jehovah's Witnesses" instead of "The Bible Students". There are many clues in the scriptures that make it clear that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. I could go on and on but this will be my last and only post.On JW.org, we have many Bibles that you can read from online and compare translations. We have nothing to hide. We try our best to live by Bible principles because for many reasons we believe it is the word of God.
Please share the Scriptures that say that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. There doesn't appear to be any historical source online that documents Jehovah's Witness religion prior to the late 1800s. I'm willing to listen and discuss.
there are NONE, its just another of their man made mis-translations.
The movies are not about the Bible. They are about everyday Christians and the struggles they face. Christmas Shoes is about a little boy whose mother is dying. The song is very touching. It's something that can be shown in school without administration becoming outrated.
Faith based movies are very popular these days, its wonderful that the public is interested in viewing films with a Christian message that are educational and entertaining for all ages.
Pure Flix is a good place to find out about these kind of movies. "Mission Air" is a fairly new movie, and of course "The Passion" and "Gods Not Dead" are ones I recommend.
You can watch one movie free per month on PF, (and unlimited movie trailers). Could invite friends for movie night (and popcorn).
Oh, "Amerigeddon" will be in theaters tomorrow.I love those movies. I purchased God is not Dead, Christmas Shoes and several others that I showed to my class. I wish Christian television stations would include versions of HGTV and other networks that have housing improvement shows and others produced by Christians. If the show have anyone that supports Christian views, the networks take them off the air. The Benham Brothers were cancelled because of their views. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 … r-liberal/
unfortunatelt I have not found one "christian movie" to be a factual. scripturely accurate account. they are all full of movie add ons that are either not found in svripture or twisted
COLOSSIANS 1:
9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. - NKJVAmen! The Pharisees really got made when He said, "Go, your sins are forgiven." They knew only God could forgive.
except for the fact that God has given HIS authority to Jesus to use. ALL AUTHORITY ON HEAVEN AND EARTH WAS GIVEN TO JESUS-- THE MAN- THE SON OF GOD.
Well where is/was GOD if "ALL AUTHORITY ON HEAVEN AND EARTH WAS GIVEN TO JESUS - THE MAN (Which HE is no longer!) - THE SON OF GOD?" Did GOD go on break when HE relinquished HIS POWER?
Think "in the Spirit" Celafoe!
JESUS is that ONE SPIRIT who returned to that ONE SPIRIT after HIS ascension with ALL POWER which HE never lost! Don't you recall HE told Peter "I could call LEGIONS OF ANGELS..." Does this sound like HE had "limited" POWER? JESUS "humbled" himself, manifested HIMSELF in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16), came and DIED for us so that we could have a right to the tree of life by GRACE through our FAITH we can now be SAVED (Ephesians 2:8-9)!
Good morning, Diane and everyone,
Have you heard about the revival that started in West Virginia this year? It started out from a planned three day revival meetings but it hasn't stopped there. Revival is breaking out in other churches, people are talking about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit everywhere. God knows no denominational lines (He loves everyone), and people from all denominations are experiencing the presence of God. It is expected by many that the Fire of God will spread to other states in this Great Wakening.
* http://www.charismanews.com/us/57045-we … t-baptismsI read the article. It looks exciting.
Franklin Graham is crossing the United States encouraging Christians to get involved in government and decision making groups in communities. I pray for his efforts and contribute to his ministry.colorfulone, I know some people live and die by KJV. Are there particular versions you find troubling or do you notice passages across versions to be a problem.
Wycliffe translators transcribe the Bible into the language of indigenous people in countries that do not have access to the Bible. Has anyone found this troubling?
I found this much more helpful whilst attempting to discover scripture to support this theory. Much more explanatory than jw.org. Interesting read, thought I'd share since the frustration here lies in not enough scriptural references:
https://e-watchman.com/jesus-michael-the-archangel/One would have to believe this before reading the rest and it has no Scriptural basis:
Michael the archangel is featured in the Bible as the chief angel; the leader of all of heaven’s angels. He is also revealed to be the leader of God’s people – both before Christ and after. He is portrayed in the Bible as the savior of Christians during the tribulation and the vanquisher of Satan, the serpent. In short, Michael is shown to possess all authority in heaven and on earth – the same as Jesus Christ.
I AM was first introduced in Exodus 3:14
14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
-----------------
Daniel 10:13King James Version (KJV)
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
JW NWT
13 But the prince+ of the royal realm of Persia stood in opposition to me for 21 days. But then Miʹcha·el,*+ one of the foremost princes,* came to help me; and I remained there beside the kings of Persia.
Michael is an angel. There are many angels. There is only one I AM.
This is not Michael
Isaiah 9:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Is 9:6 tells us that Jesus (John 3:16) is a) the mighty God, b) The everlasting Father, and c) The Prince of Peace.
The reason the balance of the referenced website flows is because an assumption is made that Michael is I AM. I would have to unlearn everything I have learned to accept what on this site which is also jw. I won't go through the rest unless someone wants me to.You said you'd already have to believe that Michael is Jesus for this to make sense. I find this also to be true of Christianity.
That one would have to believe Jesus is God before any of the Scriptures can be interpreted, as a whole, to mean that (at least without serious contradiction.)
Both religions are technically capable of being "proven" within their own parameters.
So basically both are doing the same thing. A preset notion, with all scripture being interpreted with this notion in mind and any contradictions excused by other verses which have been explained by other verses whose contradictions are by explained by others..etc. all within one framework of belief. Ultimately all you have is a set of writings which can reinforce either religion, depending on what parameters you already have in mind before interpreting. Each is self-sustaining, defending, and even accurate within its own set of doctrine, because the presentation of the religion and the proof of that religion are both contained in the same reference, with an internal validation, making both unprovable and unable to be disproved. It's one big loop.
From a blank slate perspective, the Bible is far too ambiguous to mean anything. And even if it was so clear there was no room for error, you'd have to believe it is true before you could make any connections within it. And the only reason you'd do that it's if you were already inclined to do so. And you'd also have to believe that all the books are included that should have been. The Apocrypha for example. For Christians, it means what they want it to mean. For Jehovah witnesses, it means what they want it to mean, and both can technically be validated, because both have their own set of self-defining and self-defending rules. We interpret everything according to preset notions.
I personally don't think Michael was presented as Jesus in the Bible, and I don't think Jesus claimed divinity. (Regardless of whether or not either is true. That's beside the point.) However, if you put them side by side, evidence for the latter seems more reasonable because there is simply more text about it, and because of the teachings from later Christians. I can't find one single verse where Jesus says directly he's God. Same as no verse directly says Michael is Jesus. Apologetcs for BOTH use verse comparisons to make these claims, or deductions from other verses, or from interpretations of verses made from an already established system of thought. Any time that the source of a religion (Bible) is also the evidence for it, you have an endless loop of unprovable and unable to be disproved belief systems.
I presented the site because there were so many complaints about no one wanting to share scriptures. This one did so I shared it to be helpful.The difference between Jesus being God and Jesus being Michael the Archangel is the real point of contention. Both cannot be right. They are mutually exclusive.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
So I'm wondering why JWs would want to call themselves Christians?Both cannot be correct, but neither has to be. Both are technically " provable" within their own parameters. I'm observing this from a perspective of "what did the writers mean?" Not "is what the writers say true?"
According to their websites, Jehovah witnesses call themselves Christians because they believe Jesus is the only way to obtain salvation.Not if you call Him Michael the Archangel because you are denying His deity.
Romans 10:9 says 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
It says nothing about deity. Only that they call him Lord, which they do. Lord isn't the same as God. Kurios vs Theos. And that they believe God raises him from the dead. Which is true....I thought you said you are more interested in languages. You seem to be well versed in JW position. Romans 10:9 is among the many, many Scriptures that prove Jesus is God.
What do you do with Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
This is prophecy about the birth of Jesus. He has many names. Here it says "MIGHTY GOD" Related to eternity - Everlasting Father
You are really throwing me because I thought you didn't know much about JW or NWT Bible.
Thank you for discussing with me in conversational tone.I am interested in languages. However, when I tried discussing that in depth with you, you hinted that it was irrelevant to you and that you don't have to "go back to" any language and redirected me to the topic at hand, which was whether or not JW are Christians. Therefore I kept to the topic at hand and asked questions relevant to the topic. I know nothing about Jehovah Witnesses except what they posted. And it wasn't until the last several days as this topic interested me and caused me to do extensive research, that I discovered what they posted. My knowledge is basic but I had a head start because I know a lot about the Bible and Christianity and religion and obviously translation.
However the issue of salvation (and therefore being or not being a Christian) still remains. Salvation through Christ is the basis of Christianity. However no verses directly state that acknowledging Christ's deity is necessary for salvation. So is recognizing Christ's deity necessary to salvation, per the Bible? (Assuming of course at this point, for clarity, that it's true.) I'm asking to inquire for a explanation, not to argue for or against the concept. I just see no basis for this upon translating. Salvation is always linked to Jesus being Lord, not God, when translating. Hence why I mentioned the difference between lord (kurios) and God (theos). So to me, it just looks like they're Christians accordng to the Bible's own definition (since that's all I've got to work with).
Thank you as well!We are free to have our own thoughts and make our own choices. God gave us free will and wants us to accept His invitation. He doesn't force it on us. We can be real confident in ourselves but is that what really mattters.
Proverbs 14:12King James Version (KJV)
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.I'm not quite sure how this verse helps explain the Bible's teaching in salvation.
May I ask where in the Bible that salvation is directly equated to acknowledging Jesus' deity, and not just his Lordship?It is amazing that, not having known much about JW, you are able to state their case exactly as they do.
If I remember correctly, you stated that people believe differently. That is true. As I stated previously, until the late 90s, JWs were not saying they were Christians. It would actually take quite a bit of time and space to present my case (and I would only use Bible)
Christians believe Jesus is Almighty God, Lord, the Good Shepherd, the Wonderful Counselor and many other Names ascribed to Him throughout the Bible.
Why the aversion to calling Him God but willingness to call Him Lord?
2 Peter 3:9 King James Bible
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Heb. Jehovah, has been rendered in the English Bible LORD, printed in small capitals. This is the proper name of the God of the Hebrews. The form "Jehovah" is retained only in Exodus 6:3 ; Psalms 83:18 ; Isaiah 12:2 ; 26:4 , both in the Authorized and the Revised Version.I don't remember making a case for Jehovah Witnesses. Much less exactly the way they do. I did explain the approach they had to translating, and attempted to provide resources in the absence of them, but that's about it.
I posted links to a more helpful website because the Jehovah Witness who was here, wasn't really helping to explain. So I did extensive research due to the absence of information being provided. Like I said, everyone was complaining about no explanations being given, and it bothered me too. I was curious and wanted to know. Just because I'm not a Christian or Jehovah Witness doesn't mean religion and comparison of religions doesn't interest me.
Mostly it was just me going on about proper translation in general or different translation approaches, and this time it just so happened that we were discussing Jehovah Witnesses. I don't know really anything about the NWT except it's translation approach, so I'm not sure why you thought that; Nor do I know anything about their religion except concerning Jesus and Michael, because those were the points brought up which related directly to Jesus, which weren't being explained. So I researched them.
So nah. No case to be had. Like I said, whether or not the Bible is true (any way it's interpreted) is completely irrelevant and doesn't affect logical deduction or the issue of proper translation among Bible versions. I'm happy to stay out of that.
However, from an unbiased perspective, I still was interested in comparing the two religions. So...
Here was my thought process: In order to know if Jehovah Witnesses should be considered Christians, of course I have to look to the Bible's definition of what constitutes salvation, because in the Bible and according to Christian doctrine, salvation through Christ is what makes someone a Christian. So that led me to ask, ok, well is salvation dependent upon recognizing Christ as deity? If it is, then nope, JW aren't really Christians per the Bible. So I looked in the Bible to see if it recognition of Christ's divinity was truly an element of salvation. I couldn't find anything which suggested it, so I asked you to see if there were any verses directly stating that recognizing Christ's deity was important TO SALVATION, that I was missing, and I haven't quite got one from you yet, so my thoughts on it are pending. It's just a logical flow of reasoning. I'm not arguing either way. I'm trying to approach this from a logical perspective.
As far as God's name in the OT BIble, no. It is not Lord, it is יהוה (YAHWEH--although technically no one knows the vowels that were used.) and this was intentionally changed in the translations. Every Christian translator acknowledges this; but here is the explanation on why:
In the Hebrew OT, God's NAME is "Yahweh," ( יהוה )When reading the Old Testament, the Jews had a tradition of not saying God's name out of reverential fear, and instead replaced his name, "Yahweh," with the generic title "The Lord," out of respect. All English translations (save for maybe one or two) continue this tradition and therefore translate it as "The Lord," even though it literally reads "YAWHEH." In order for it to literally read "Lord," the Hebrew word used would have to read "Addonai." Every time you see the word "Lord" written in capital letters in small print in a translation, it's where translators replaced God's name with the title of "Lord." So therefore, Yahweh is God's name, and "the Lord," is what is used to replace it out of respect for Jewish tradition. "Addonai" (the Lord) is a title which was used to REFER to Yahweh, but NEVER as his actual name. They are not interchangeable. This is an intentional deviation from literal translation and is a very well known fact among Christian translators. The reason it's accepted, despite its literal inaccuracy, is the fact that all Christians accept that God is Lord. However this poses a challenge when attempting to use God's name being "Lord" as a basis for argument. It simply can't be used, because that's not God's name, per the Bible. It was the title given by Jews reading their Hebrew manuscripts.
"Jehovah" is just the Latin version of "Yahweh," hence it's use. However it is still technically inaccurate the same way that Jesus' name is technically inaccurate. The Hebrew form is actually Yeshua. Jehovah and "Yahweh" are technically interchangeable because they're both proper nouns, but if you're going to use God's actual name, I don't know why you wouldn't just use "Yahweh."
The reason that the Scriptures you mentioned (such as in Ezekiel) used "Jehovah," then and only then is because special emphasis was made in those verses to point out God's exact name. [For example, if the name of God itself was the actual subject of what was being discussed in the verse, and not just "Yahweh said...." ] Therefore, the translators attempted to reflect that emphasis in the translation, but still used "jehovah," instead of Yahweh, in order to maintain that element of Jewish tradition and respect of not saying God's name, while still making emphasis on God's name.
It's a harmless translation change if you're a Christian, because after all you know you're talking about God and you think he's the Lord; but the idea that God's name is "Lord" can't be used as the basis for any argument because God's name is never said to be "Lord." It's an intention translation change. And it's a very harmful translation change if you're studying it objectively.
P.S. Btw All caps wasn't me yelling; I kept trying to italicize and it wasn't doing it correctly for some reasonCAPS - Not a problem for me. When you did your research did you notice that jw.org and compantion publications (watch tower, NWT, etc.) are the only ones that support JW positions.
If you type in one of the JW beliefs, other than jw, it will come up as a "jw" belief and have commentary to explain why it is wrong. There are probably hundreds of sites that list JW as a cult and explain why. They then tell why each belief is not Bible based.
Did you notice that in your research?BTW Sunday through Saturday are not in the Bible. Neither are our months. Words were translated to make them understandable in today's language.
Names Jesus was called: http://bibleresources.org/names-of-jesus/
ywhw (yahweh when vowels added) Is YHWH Yahweh?
YHWH is a Tetragrammaton or God’s given name in the Old Testament but Bible scholars cannot agree on exactly how this name of God was or is to be pronounced.
Jehovah - another issue with Hebrew language not having vowels
Jehovah’s Origin
To many people’s surprise, the word Jehovah does not appear in the Bible anywhere at all. It is not found in the Old Testament, where many assume it would be, but neither does it appear in the New Testament either. The origin of the word “Jehovah” is a mystery to most Bible scholars. For one thing, the Hebrew language does not have any vowels. They pronounced vowel-like sounds in their words but they were never in written form. Some translators concocted the name of Jehovah from YWHW which is spelled Yahweh (pronounced “YAH way”) but the ancient Israelites were so afraid of mispronouncing God’s name that they never used this form of His name. We really don’t know how YWHW was pronounced at all.Yes of course it is a fact that most scholars disagree with the Jehovah Witnesses belief system. I never claimed otherwise.
Regarding the Hebrew language and "Jehovah" :
Yes Yahweh is Yhwh. Yes I know that we don't know how it was pronounced, and yes I'm aware of the entire history of it as relates to the Jews and them not wanting to pronounce it, etc. That is all coreect I actually said all of this to you in my last post, so I'm not sure the need for reiteration.
Technically, the original manuscripts read: יהוה
Transliterated in English letters, it is: yhwh
For audible pronounciation it is: yahweh
Yahweh=yhwh=יהוה
"For one thing, the Hebrew language does not have any vowels. They pronounced vowel-like sounds in their words but they were never in written form."
This is absolutely UNTRUE. I believe you misunderstood your source.
"Yhwh" has no vowels. That is exclusive to this word.
Hebrew has a combination of dots and dashes which represent vowel-like sounds, and are definitely part of the Hebrew language. They are just not typically in letter form unless combined with Hebrew consonants. This isn't even a question among Hebrew translators.
I'm not sure where you got your source info about "Jehovah," either, because no scholar disagrees on where the word "Jehovah" came from. That's a historical and linguistic fact. Unless I misunderstand you...
Here's the breakdown, bear with me, and this is all just translation and transliteration fact:
Jehovah is a Latin "concoction" as you say, of the word "yahweh."
"Yahweh" is, in turn, an audible "guessed version" of "yhwh,"
"Yhwh" is the transliteration of the original Hebrew word יהוה
There is no question from any scholar as to the source of the word Jehovah. "A" and "e" were inserted into "yhwh" to make it able to be pronounced. Why "a" and "e"? Because those were the closest English letter equivalents to our closest guess of the Hebrew pronunciation of vowels that were not present in "yhwh." and why were vowels not present? Because Jews didn't want to pronounce God's name. Therefore the actual pronunciation is lost. So we give it our best guess: "yahweh," fully understanding that we realize we are unsure of the vowel sounds and do this for ease of communication.
However. "Jehovah" was then used in place of "yahweh," so it's an even FURTHER stretch. And why and when was it concocted? When the old manuscripts were translated into Latin and somebody decided that this was easier to say "Jehovah" than "Yahweh." So it's basically an unnecessary change to a word that is already a slight change or "guess."
The only version of this which is NOT a guess, is "yhwh." Because יהוה is not in question.
The NT doesn't ever mention "yhwh," because the NT is written in Greek, not Hebrew, and "Yhwh" is Hebrew, not Greek. Therefore any translation of "Jehovah" (a stretch of "yahweh," which is a stretch of "yhwh," which is a transliteration of יהוה ) in Greek is INACCURATE, unless the NT is quoting OT scripture and saying God's Hebrew name. When quoting Hebrew OT scriptures in Greek, the Greeks replaced God's name with Greek word for "lord." (kurios), to reflect the common practice of the Hebrews, who had replaced "yhwh" with the generic word "addonai" (Lord) . So technially the Greeks never really had their own version of God's ACTUAL name. They just said "kurios" (Lord) because it was a translation of "addonai" (Lord) which the Jews used in place of "yhwh."
Make sense?
Personally, I think Jehovah is a pretty lousy rendition of "Yhwh" to begin with. "Yahweh" is a pretty good guess because after all you can't pronounce it without vowels, and we don't have much to go on. The reason we have ANYthing to go on is because the Hebrew consonants in "yhwh" ( יהוה ) also sometimes function as parts of vowels in other Hebrew words, allowing us to make an educated "guess," via context. But adding e" and "o" and "a" and then changing "Y" to "j" and "w" to "v" is a HUGE stretch. And so is replacing "yhwh" with "Lord."
Either way, "yhwh" isn't "Lord," which is the point of my last post. And "Jehovah" is a watered down version of a guess of a transliteration of a vowel-less Hebrew word.
So personally, I think the use of "Jehovah" is pretty sloppy and unnecessary and hinders understanding. If JW were really intent on preserving God's name, then why not just say "Yahweh?" It's closer (from a transliteration perspective) than "Jehovah" is, any day of the week.
Again as far as the Hebrew language and origin of Jehovah, I think you might have misunderstood your source materials. However, it appeared your confusion about both was based on the false statement that Hebrew has no vowels, which is untrue.
Moving on...
"Would JWs be willing to day
Romans 10:9 says 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Michael the Archangel is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
I don't know, and the question is irrelevant to what I was asking. The context was whether or not recognition of Christ's deity necessary for salvation, and henceforth necessary to being called a Christian. IT's a discussion about "Can JW be called Christians?" Romans 10:9 doesn't mention it so I asked for more scriptures validating that.Christians are followers of Christ. It is mandatory that Jesus Christ be acknowledged as God in Christianity. Any religion claiming to be Christian that does not acknowledge the Trinity, Deity of Christ, eternal life through Jesus Christ, the Bible is the inerrant Word of God is considered a cult.
Since you are aware that Christians do not accept tenets of JW, you know what I am saying is the belief system.
If you don't agree, that's ok. The subject has been JWs legitimacy/illegitimacy as Christian faith. Every "Christian" site I go to, I look at the Statement of Faith.
C.A.R.M. Statement of Faith https://carm.org/statement-faith
Christian Ministery Alliance https://www.cmalliance.org/about/beliefs/doctrine
Grace To You Doctrinal Statement https://www.gty.org/connect/doctrine
First Baptist Church of Atlanta http://www.fba.org/main/statement-of-faith
That's part of reference check to determine how to use a source.I was looking at the definition of salvation, and therefore Christianity, from the view of translation of the Bible, not from the statements of "Christians" directly, because that gets too confusing. I've heard denominations say that other denominations aren't "christian," yet they all claim to be. Anybody can claim that their belief system is "Christian," So I just go directly to the Biblical definition of salvation and Christ.
"Since you are aware that Christians do not accept tenets of JW, you know what I am saying is the belief system."
Yes I know that that is what YOU are saying...however I wasn't discussing belief systems, I was discussing translation of the Bible, not belief systems. Perhaps I'm confused?
"That is why I wonder why they want to be considered a Christian religion. They don't plan to have eternal life. I suppose they think they will just sleep. So what is the benefit for them being JWs here. It's a bunch of rules, regulations, do's and don'ts that end in everybody sleeping in the ground. Why not just have fun. What is the JW god doing for his people? It makes no sense to me. I ask because I'm trying to make sense of it all."
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. Ok I see what you're saying and why I was getting confused. Drh. Alrighty now I see the problem. Ok here we go. So basically, you say there is a heaven and hell, and that Christ's work was based on saving you from that. JW say that hell is basically not to be taken literally but still value Christ's salvation in a more spiritual, psychological sense and that He saved us from a type of "spiritual" death, am I right?
So it's basically you both have different takes on the same concepts. You both get these ideas from the Bible, but both can't be correct. It ultimately boils down to the question of "Who is correct about the Bible?" Simple translation can't answer that because translation and interpretation is one thing. Interpretation and translation WHILE holding the subject to be true is complex. And well that's where I run very far away because to argue that, I'd have to believe the Bible is accurate and flawless, and I don't believe that for a second.
I'm not sure what the appeal is in their religion, the same way I don't see how Christians find peace in theirs, ultimately. Security maybe. Promise of an afterlife (at least for you anyway) maybe. Thinking someone loves them or something. To me, life is shit and you deal with it. There doesn't have to be a happy ending. You just do the best you can and be decent and not screw people over and try to be the best, most honest person you can be. Ah well.
.You must admit that Christianity has fire insurance!
Franklin Graham
"What would you take a bullet for? What are the principles and beliefs that you would not compromise under any circumstances? Even if it meant putting your life on the line?
King Nebuchadnezzar who reigned over Babylon issued a decree that everyone worship the golden image he had made. Three men who knew the one true and living God, refused to worship the king’s idol—their names were Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. The king told them, “But if you do not worship, you shall be cast immediately into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.” Here is their bold reply:
“O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. If that is the case, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and He will deliver us from your hand, O king. But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we do not serve your gods, nor will we worship the gold image which you have set up" (Daniel 3:16-18).
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego stood firm in obedience and faithfulness. They stood up for God’s truth. They stood up for their faith, and they didn’t waiver, even when it meant putting their very lives at risk. I want to call on every Christian and every pastor to stand firm like these patriarchs of old and not bow to the secular, increasingly godless culture in which we live—even when (not if) we’re criticized, mocked, and labeled intolerant. The God of the Old Testament that delivered Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego from their fiery execution is the same God today—and He is still more than able to save. Will you stand against ungodliness? What are you willing to take a bullet for?"If you read my previous post you will see where I explained that I AM took part in creation and was present in the OT.
I bet my future on my eternal life in New Jerusalem. When people want me to explain, I am overjoyed.
I don't mind discussing as I said but I don't debate.
Again, have a good evening!Colorfulone, I try my best to keep it focused but it goes a whole lot of places before I can get it back.
I have no plans of going into one. I don't know what is in the future but my final address will be inNEW JERUSALEM!!!!
Have a Blessed night!You are in the refiner's fire (as are we all).
Blessings on your head.
Not at all, there is the provision of Eternal Life for those believing in the ransom sacrifice. Go back to JW. orgm, it makes that clear. Accordingly, the dead will be ressurected at a future time and dater that only Jehovah himself knows.
If you check scripture, I believe that it states that the day of reckoning is only known by the Father, even the Son does not know the exact date.
Matthew 24.36, how is this possible in a Trinity scenario?Yes I noticed that eternal life was supported. I just said that I noticed that a literal Hell was not supported. Or am I inaccurate? Perhaps I did not read correctly....I guess for dianes particular branch of religion that's how they define being a Christian...believing in Christ saving us from a literal hell.
Either way, all I meant was I see the problem from a Christian perspective, but how each person defines Christianity occurs even among "Christian" denominations, as I noted earlier. The definition isn't cut and dry but subjective, as you seemed to be saying. Which is why at this point I can't say anything opinion wise From the perspective of translation, when translated literally, the concept of Trinity becomes difficult. And honestly the whole concept that all Christ-centered religions have, becomes difficult, because there are too many literal contradictions to support any one religion definitely. It's all about about the way someone chooses to see it. In my opinion, the only way for the Bible to mean what religious people say it means, is to already have accepted a religious way of thinking before they delve into it. The Bible itself is WAY too ambiguous in translation to be the basis of my entire life personally. Plus books were added and removed, etc. I know how to translate but when it comes to figuring out "doctrine", it just depends on how a person personally interprets what they read.
Sorry, Diane, your definition of what constitutes "Christian" is your opinion. Jehovah's Witnesses follow the teachings of Christ as Jehovah's example to the human family, what does it matter if he is not considered part of a Trilogy?
I have yet to find anyone that has all the answers in this matters and the ones that say they do are always the ones for which I find the most errors.
Since, your interpretation is no better than that of the Episcopalian or Catholic, we will just have to wait until the grand reckoning to sort this all out as who among the many varied opinions is correct.
It is like L to L said in an earlier comment, there is not any denomination of Judeo=Christianity that does not leave someone with questions. I am satisfied with the tenets of the Witnesses and while I have questions, I have fewer than I have had with other so called "Christian" faiths.
This is a subjective topic that cannot lend itself to a precision answer such as a problem in mathematics.Credence2 it is not "my" definition. It is the Christian definition. I spoke with AF at length about it and provided Scriptures and explanations along the way.
You have a right to believe what you choose to believe and I have no problem with that
Have a nice evening!
Would JWs be willing to say
Romans 10:9 says 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Michael the Archangel is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Sorry that was not the compete list of reasons . Here's a very small article that I could not copy and paste for some reason .
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse … /#?insight
That was going to be my question to you. Isnt the above list the only requirement Christians have for salvation? That they believe God sent Christ as His only Son and that it is through Him only that we obtain salvation?
Romans:
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Jehovah Witnesses do both.I went to the website. I responded to the last paragraph about what JW does not believe
1) We do not believe that the soul is immortal (JW belief)
My response
Immortality – live forever, eternally
1 Timothy 1:17 God is immortal 17Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.…
Luke 23:42-43 Thief on the cross
42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come [d]in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.
John 3:16King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
2) that there is any basis in Scripture for saying that God tortures people in an everlasting hell, (JW belief)
Scriptures on hell (it’s all or nothing. Either the Bible is correct or wrong)
Famous parable about rich man and Lazarus
Luke 16:19-31King James Version (KJV)
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
King James Version (KJV)
---------
“And I say unto you My friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him,”- Luke 12:4-5.
to destroy both soul and body in hell,” - Matthew 10:28.
“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched,” - Mark 9:43-48.
3) or that those who take the lead in religious activities should have titles that elevate them above others.—Ecclesiastes 9:5; Ezekiel 18:4;Matthew 23:8-10. JW belief
My response
Explanation of Matthew 23:8-10
Matthew 23:8 (Jesus was talking to the Pharisees about the great responsibility of being a teacher. Reading of the whole chapter will show that it is a great responsibility and should not be a title to be lorded over other people)
But be not ye called Rabbi
Do not be ambitious of any such title, fond of it, or affect it, or be elated with it, should it be given you; nor look upon yourselves as men of power and authority over others; as having the dominion over men's faith, a power to make laws for others, impose them in a magisterial way, and bind and loose men's consciences at pleasure, as these men do:
If no leaders, there would be no qualifications for leaders
Titus 1:5-9
Qualifications of Elders
5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, 6 namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. 7 For the [a]overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain,8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word
which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.
Titus 1:6-8
6 namely, aif any man is above reproach, the bhusband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of cdissipation or drebellion.
7 For the 1aoverseer must be above reproach as bGod’s steward, not cself-willed, not quick-tempered, not daddicted to wine, not pugnacious, enot fond of sordid gain,
8 but ahospitable, bloving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled,
Romans 10:14King James Version (KJV)
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?I'm not quite sure how these verses about hell, etc. explains the question . The link I gave shows what they believe about Jesus. So far it's the same as what Christians believe about Jesus. And according to Romans 10:9, only those two things are required for salvation. JW do both. Unless you're saying that more is required to be saved than what Romans depicts.
Christians believe in eternal life with Jesus.
John 3:16King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (JWs don't believe in everlasting life) Rev. 21 is very specific in describing the New Jerusalem. This is after Satan and his followers are cast into hell
should not perish (states the alternative - hell)
King James Bible Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (those not written in the Book of Life were cast into the lake of fire)So you must believe in a literal hell and heaven to be a Christian, is what you're saying? From that view, I could see the validity from your perspective, as I know they don't believe in literal hell.
Absolutely!! You must believe in literal heaven and hell. Otherwise, John 3:16 and the myriad of other references are lies and the Bible is trash. Revelations details Armageddon, the thousant year reign of Christ on earth, the subsequent release of Satan and the final war before Satan, his angels, and unsaved people are thrown into the eternal flames of hell and the Bridge of Christ, Christians, will live eternally in the New Kingdom. Glory to God!
That is why I wonder why they want to be considered a Christian religion. They don't plan to have eternal life. I suppose they think they will just sleep. So what is the benefit for them being JWs here. It's a bunch of rules, regulations, do's and don'ts that end in everybody sleeping in the ground. Why not just have fun. What is the JW god doing for his people? It makes no sense to me. I ask because I'm trying to make sense of it all.
Listen to this short YouTube video "Donald Trump on God and Forgiveness". He believes he is forgiven when he takes communion because he feels cleaned. He said if he does something wrong he makes it right. His pastor was the great Norman Vincent Peale, who wrote the book "The Power of Positive Thinking".
A life that is in Christ is a life that is free from condemnation and the law of sin and death.
Be your best!I'm not sure why the accusation that other religions are intentionally trying to distort Scripture. (This is not directed at anyone particularly.) People interpret both Scriptures and context for Scriptures differently. Each belief system interprets Scripture based on context. Context is interpreted by that already established belief system. It's circular. Belief systems are only self-consistent, and only make sense if data is interpreted according to that belief system. There is no such thing as objectivity in any belief system. It is self-defining, self-validating, and self-proving. I have yet to see one belief system use OBJECTIVE facts and logic to disprove another. If you attempt to disprove another belief system based on the assumption that your own belief system is correct, which is all I see in theistic religions, that's incorrect logic. I think what's important to remember is the flow of belief. People have the same set of data. One person interprets it in one way. Another person interprets it another way. Two religions are formed. No agenda there. Just difference of interpretation of data. To disprove one from the other, you'd have to go back to the point where both objectively looked at the data, and prove that their approach to the data was logically incorrect, with evidence which is NOT based on the assumption that the outcome of your interpretation of that data is correct. It's the biggest logical error I've ever seen.
AF, I pretty much agree with you. Christianity was established in the Book of Acts. The belief system was established and is the foundation for Christianity. JW started in 1872(?) with Charles Taze Russell, a man that has no credibility outside of JW.
Charles Taze's position is diametrically opposed to Jesus is God, man is immortal and there are two choices for afterlife. He did not call his followers "Christians." He called them Jehovah Witnesses. The attachment to Christianity "evolved" because it helps them recruit.Jehovah Witnesses claim that they call themselves Christians because of their beliefs about Christ, not as a technique.
What is their explanation for not calling themselves Christians, or for Russell to not call them Christians, prior to a certain time frame?
The concept of whether or not one is a Christian is unable to be objectively determined, because the term "Christianity" and its definition is by its very nature subjective, not objective. "Christianity" is a term coined by a group of people to describe their OWN particular belief system.AF,
Do you mind telling us what they think about Christ?
Thank you!
DianeWhat they think about Christ has already been discussed and is very irrelevant to the point I'm making though. The real person to ask would be a JW, but they are absent. The point I'm making is this:
This argument is unable to be objectively proven.
My point is a philosophical one, not a religious one. As I've said multiple times, I don't care whether or not either is correct.
Since you didn't answer the question I posed, I'm assuming for now you don't know their own explanation of why they only recently called themselves Christians. I don't know the answer to that question either, so I thought you might have at some point gotten that answer from them. I personally don't know. I don't typically conversate with JW.
The nature of the term "Christianity" and the definition of the term "Christianity" is subjective. And if it's subjective, it's unable to be objectively proven. A group of people decided to arbitrarily coin the term "Christianity" to describe a particular set of beliefs, thereby making both the term and the definition subjective in nature.
JW and other Christians use the same source: The Bible. The only thing different is the interpretation. The Bible isn't Christian by nature. It's a bunch of manuscripts from which Christianity has its source. I could create a pretty elaborate religion based mostly on the Bible which has nothing similar with Christianity. The Muslims did use a huge chunk of it as part of their religion, which you mentioned earlier.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of "Christian" denominations say that the others aren't "Christian." And yet here they all are claiming to be Christian. If you were to present your Christian ideas to a Catholic from the 1700s, they might also say you were not a true Christian.
Either way, the result is the same. The definition of Christianity is subjective, and therefore whether or not one is a Christian, is subjective.JW does not accept the Bible as final authority. Watchtower is final authority for them. I am in a sorority, AKA. Many Greek organizations exist. There are qualifications to become a member of the group. Anyone can appropriate and pretend but it doesn't give them legitimacy.
It seems we are going off on a tangent. Christianity has thousands, maybe millions of sources online. JW has JW. Nothing can be explained without going to Watchtower.
I have no malice or ill will toward JWs, Muslims or anyone else. Jesus Christ died for all. It is up to us to accept his gift of eternal life.
1. JW believes Bible isn't enough.
That's why they quickly refer people to JW.org for the indoctrination. Questions about the Bible should be answered using the Bible as a stand alone source. If someone doesn't believe the Bible, that's the person's choice.
2. The Bible warns against adding to/taking away (you shouldn't have to)
Rev. 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Research Christian sources
The Bible Alone Is Not Enough
Like all other cults, Jehovah's Witnesses in practice deny the inspiration and authority of the Bible. Founder Charles Taze Russell taught that man's reason has authority over Scripture. Men should "examine the character of the writings claimed as inspired (the Bible) to see whether their teachings correspond with the character we have reasonably imputed to God."1
Jehovah's Witnesses teach that their religion is the "sole visible channel" of God in the world, and that the Bible cannot be understood except through the matrix of the pronouncements of the Watchtower Society, which they call God's "visible organization."2 (It is well to note that this is essentially the same position taken by the Roman Catholic church.)
However, the Jehovah's Witnesses have no single document that embodies an official doctrinal position. Various books and publications of the Watchtower organization have been put forth as "official" at different times through the cult's history. And as we shall see, they have often taken conflicting positions.
Today, the main doctrinal publications of the Jehovah's Witnesses are three: The Watchtower magazine, published twice each month; Awake!, a monthly general-interest magazine containing commentaries on scientific issues and current events viewed through the lens of Watchtower Society teachings; and What Does the Bible Really Teach? (published in 2005 by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania), a 220-page book now used as the official textbook in all Bible studies conducted by the Jehovah's Witnesses. All of these publications have been translated into dozens of languages.
Your Bible is Not Enough
Until 1950, Jehovah's Witnesses generally used the Authorized (King James) Version of the Bible. However, the use of this faithful translation of the Scripture presented great problems for Witnesses in their proselytizing efforts, because a straightforward reading of the text clearly contradicts every major teaching of the Watchtower Society.
In the 1940s, Nathan Knorr, then president of the Watchtower Society, proposed that Jehovah's Witnesses produce their own new translation of the Bible. Work was begun in 1947 and completed in 1960, and was undertaken by a team of men whose names the Watchtower Society has refused to reveal.
The stated reason for this new Bible version was that the language of the King James Bible had become archaic, and therefore a modern English translation was needed for understandability. This is a worthy motive for Bible translation when the work is done by faithful men in submission to the authority of Scripture (Matthew 28:18-19, 1 Corinthians 14:6). But the resulting New World Translation of the Bible, now the official Bible version of the Watchtower Society, reveals an entirely different agenda - to produce a "Bible" whose text would agree with Jehovah's Witnesses' teachings, no matter how much the original Hebrew and Greek text had to be ignored, twisted, or embellished. (Once again, it is well to note that the Roman Catholic church has done precisely the same thing in the Bible versions it has produced.)
Authentic Christianity in Contrast: The Authority and Sufficiency of Scripture
Contrary to the Watchtower position, the Bible teaches that Scripture is not subject to the test of human reasoning, but that human reasoning is subject to the test of Scripture:
"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner [in the original, a critic] of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)
The Word of God also teaches that human reasoning which is not based on Scripture has no validity (e.g., 1 Corinthians chapters 1 and 2). We are not to substitute the traditions of men for the Word of God (Matthew 15:1-6; Mark 7:1-13; Colossians 2:8).
God pronounces severe judgment upon those who would add to, subtract from, or alter a single word of the text of His Word (Deuteronomy 4:2-3, Proverbs 30:6, Revelation 22:18-19). Tampering with even a single word of the Bible can jeopardize the sense of the whole. Such tampering hinders our ability to accurately compare Scripture with Scripture. It also hinders our ability to test what we are taught by human teachers against God's Word itself, as the Bereans did in the book of Acts (17:10-12).
Bible translators, and anyone who evaluates the trustworthiness of a translation, must always remember that no word of any man or church may be substituted for, added to, or subtracted from the Word of God. Doing so places the word of man in authority over the Word of God. (For a more in-depth discussion of these important points, see the article, How Do We Know the Bible is God's Word When Human Beings Wrote It?, on this website).
Next: What do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe About Jesus Christ?
References:
1. Charles Taze Russell, Millennial Dawn (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1902), page 41.
2. Watchtower Magazine (Brooklyn, New York: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) October 1, 1967, pages 587 and 590.I went slightly off tangent, or perhaps more in depth to the root of the situation, to point out that this question "Are JW Christians or not" cannot objectively be answered, and is therefore in a logical sense, unsolvable. Each answer requires a subjective opinion about the matter under discussion, making every argument a circular or self-sustaining one.
As I mentioned before, all belief systems are only self-proving or validating. So theoretically I could come up some crazy religious theory and then simply twist everything in the Bible to support it. The question is, is this what they're doing? Honestly I think that's what everyone does. Bible is certainly vague enough to allow it.
I do appreciate you going into great length to discuss Christian views on this, but the statements you made above are not objective facts, they are subjective opinions based directly and only upon the belief system of Christianity which is in question, thereby creating a circular argument and making them not useful in an objective observation, which is the only way this matter could be settled. The entire point in question boils down to "how does one define Christianity?" and well that's subjective.
I do not mean to go off tangent, but rather to get to the root of the real questions being presented, so I apologize if this caused distraction.
What would be helpful is to hear a JW's statement in response to these questions. Otherwise this is completely one-sided. Jw.org is very vague and other supporting materials are hard to find. Perhaps next time they knock I should invite them to come in and talk. Bribe with cookies or something. It's frustrating to do research and not have anyone to speak to who has the most first hand knowledge.AF, supporting materials are hard to find because outside of JW there are none.
Yes, the question was designed for professing Christians. Otherwise a lot of stuff is thrown at the wall and it's hard to follow.
I am unaware of the conflicts within Christianity about the Bible. I don't see sources online, within Christianity, that makes it subjective. There are people online that try to discredit Christianity. I've known many Christians throughout my life and I I communicate with many on HP, Facebook and other social media. I'm not seeing or hearing the doubt your are talking about. Perhaps it is in doubt in the region where you live.
Thank you for your input and reading what I have shared.
DianeYou are misunderstanding my perspective, methinks, and that's probably my own fault for not explaining myself as well as I should be able to.
All I was saying is that how one defines themselves "christian" or "not a Christian" depends on their own subjective ideas about what the definition of Christianity means to begin with.
Don't denominations say that other denominations aren't "truly Christian?" or did I just live in a horrible place where people hated each other over a communion technicality? Probably that. That seems likely.
Either way, I'm sure I've worn out my welcome on this thread (as I'm not a professing Christian), so I'll take my leave. Thank you for taking the time to discuss with me. I've met very few Christians willing to come up with a significant amount of resources to discuss their ideas instead of just saying "Bible says so."Denominations - no. Those considered Christian denominations do not generally say others are not saved. I said "generally" because there are a few self righteous people or know it alls who don't study and can't support what they are saying. Interestingly, some Catholic gentlemen came to visit me and I told them I was a Christian. They said, "Yes, but you will REALLY be a Christian if you become Catholic." Catholicism is a Christian religion based on the belief in Jesus Christ; however, I don't know of traditional Catholics that study the Bible. They study the catechism.
I hope I explained that ok. Many people that attend church are not Christians. They feel that going to church makes them Christians. Christianity is a one-on-one relationship with Jesus Christ.
Notice during the elections, and I'm SICK of Donald Trump, they always refer to the "evangelicals." This was a matter of asking people and they said, "Yes, I am." Donald Trump said he carries his childhood Bible everywhere he goes. If he were reading it, it wouldn't have held up that long.
I appreciate you AF. It is a blessing that you hung around. The Lord is doing something in my life through this.
I started to use a myriad of sources but I didn't want it to appear that they were more authoritative than the Bible. The theologians are trained in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, etc., in seminary because it is required for their doctorates. All they do is explain, they discuss the original Hebrew or other language and trace it to what it is today. They do not add to or take away from what is in the Bible.
You are pretty patient too. I have looked for the little emoticons in the past and can't find them. :-(Thanks for the clarity (about the denominations). As for the little emoticons, just use normal text like what you did (without the dashes for the nose); or easier, when you are in the "reply" section, go to the bottom right--Formatting, and it's under there
:0
practice, practice, practice!
Thank you!
Diane, you are asking the 'universal question', whose truth is THE TRUTH, and it has nothing to do with the region in which you live. Why are there so many sects and denominations? It is as Ashton says, it is more about how different people interpret the same information. It is a matter of conscience and only Jehovah will reward those sincerely searching tor him. Sorry, to interject but there a lot of 'Christians' that seem not to have any problems supporting Trump. How do 'Christians' support Mitt Romney, as Mormonism certainly is not exactly mainstream Christianity? Oh, this is just the old do as a say, not as I do trick.
Hi Credence2, Mormonism is considered a cult also. There was discussion about that when he ran. I don't think it is realistic to expect all elected officials to be Christians. I hate politics and the lies. I will be glad when elections are over.
Credence2, from what I have read, JWs feel that they are the chosen ones. I might not have worded it correctly. My sister is studying with JWs and talked about the 144K and the little flock, etc.
Christians sin all the time. We should be confessing our sins daily. I have been taught to pray about unconfessed sin - that the Holy Spirit will bring them to mind so that I can confess them.
The standard is Jesus Christ. We should not look to other men for the model of the 5 w's. God knew we couldn't be perfect. Jesus was the "unblemished lamb", the substitute sacrifice for our sins.
And don't look at me. I am certainly not perfect. Daily I pray, read he Word, fellowship with other Christians and attempt to put into practice what the Bible says as I seek His will for my life.
I don't dislike JWs, Mormons, Muslims, or anyone. Jesus said, !) Love God with all your heart, all your soul and all of our mine and 2) love your neighbors as yourself.
Who are our neighbors - EVERYBODY!
It has been adapted to try to gain legitimacy. Think of designer and faux. There are designers whose products have high value (Louis Vuitton, Hermes, Jordans, etc.) Then others make products and label them as the real thing. Upon close examinations, you determine that they are knock offs with no value because they are false.
Yes I understand this is your opinion. My question was, "what is their reason for not calling themselves Christians until a later point in time." You assume that it is a recruiting tactic. I wanted to know their explanation and thought maybe you had gotten that answer from them at some point. No worries if you haven't.
No I haven't gotten any feedback from them. I would love to.
Exposing the False Teachers
* https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/ … e-Teachers
False Teachings
* https://www.openbible.info/topics/false_teachings
Bible Verses About False Teachers
* https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bi … -Teachers/Any belief system could theoretically use these verses to discredit other belief systems.
AF, True! Each belief system has its own sources.
JW is not considered a legitimate source in any Christian forum. When I Google online, there is nothing that supports JW outside of JW.
When we do research papers, theses, projects, we need to support with a variety of sources.
2 Corinthaisn 13:1 "This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."
Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Unless I overlooked it, nothing supports JW outside of JW.AF, maybe. I don't know. I do know that they are specific Christian sources. Probably non-Christian sources would benefit from them. I don't know.
Religion vs Christianity.
False doctrines vs Christ's teachings.
Evil vs good.
Darkness vs Light.
Deception vs Truth.
Behold the Lamb of God, Who takes away our sins.
Jesus sets us free.
They believe heaven will be on EARTH!
Jesus says heaven is within.
So ……..
You don't believe in an otherworldly heaven?
A separate plane of existence to which you go after you die.
well, this is the real question isn't it …? and there is no way to answer it unless we can consciously experience it. So we're done, word-wise.
I"m not interested in the words, I'm interested in what you believe heaven to be. You stated your disagreement with heaven being on earth. So if you disagree with it, then what do you think heaven is?
I am always shot down for what I believe. I believe in the astral plane. Jesus says,"In my Father's house are many mansions." I actually believe in Jesus. I consider myself a Christian even though I also believe in Buddhism and Hinduism. They actually all explain each other.
Why would you be shot down for what you believe? There is no need. We all have our views. Can you please explain astral plane? This is a new concept to me. I'm not theist or Christian or anything so I won't shoot you down. I find new ideas fascinating, hence my question.
This emoticon intimidates me. It's like me saying something and then my mom giving me a "look" and not saying anything.
Lol. Belief systems are one thing. I'll argue validity as to their use, application or inherent logic respectfully till the cows come home, but no need to bash people or just shoot them down. Especially if I'm the one asking out of curiosity . And I know nothing about theories of heaven. Only one I've ever heard of as truly prominent is the semi-literal one. I like to study religions, they fascinate me.It seems that as time goes on, we get more people commenting - no problem! The forum is about JWs and Christian. We're getting into metaphysical, extra-terrestrial, and whatever.
Sorry. I didn't mean to get things off topic.
You did not! But I forgive you anyway! :0
Forgive me if it sounded like I was picking on you!
Onward!
the
kingdom of God is within us because He IS the Kingdom of God and WE ARE HIS CHURCH. He says as does His Father that the righteous shall inherit the earth. the inheritance of the righteous is the Kingdom of God which will be here on the earth, of course, after the judgement and then the new (Spiritual) heaven and earth, now cleansed will be our home.
we do not leave the earth, but the earth and we will be changed in an instant.A good person leaves an inheritance for their children's children, but a sinner's wealth is stored up for the righteous. - Proverbs 13:22
American is nearly $20 trillion in debt. The richest 1% have captured America's wealth. It is easier for a poor man to enter the Kingdom of God than a rich man. Should we start thanking the greedy for storing up the wealth for us? There will be a great transfer of wealth according to God's word. The elite who have created all religions to control society will come to ruin. Those who are the Body of Christ can expect abundance because it is God's will that we prosper and be in good health.
3 John 2 "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth." ... as we prosper our soul spiritually, we can expect to prosper in all things and enjoy good health. ABOVE ALL THINGS!
The astral realm / plane of existence is a beautiful spiritually manifesting reality. Souls who are spiritually attuned can perceive it. To perceive it, one must focus with the strength of the body, feeling of the heart and the attention of the mind upon God. God must be your only desire. I understand this. Many do not.
To hold your attention with such purity brings you to this realm where you will experience your self and your will in amazing ways. I could go on about it according to what I have read. Why do I believe it? I just trust my source.So to you, heaven is not an afterlife as typically suggested, but like a type of beautiful, enlightened plane of consciousness or state of mind from focus on God?
nicely put. But it is an actual realm or reality. There are beautiful colors we do not have, there are vegetables made of light and gardens and everything is very fluid and flowing. You can create almost anything you want through thought.
I will have to find material on this. This is interesting.
The amazing thing is we do not loose our sense of Self. We increase in our self-mastery and ability to experience LIFE. In a sense, we wake up.
I have also heard that some souls live on planets which are more etheric / composed of light. In The Bible, Jesus gives us hints of what lies ahead for us: the ability to heal, levitate, transform subtle elements, read minds …dianne- I bet you never expected to see so much wierd stuff when you stated this thread. what is your conclusion?
Give us your opinion of that Celafoe! Please! I'm only addressing JW/Christian!
do you ever read the scriptures? there is no scriptural basis for what you are saying. you CAN NOT be a real Christian UNLESS YOU DO LOSE YOURSELF. you need to stop reading about the wierd stuff you are promoting here OR at least not bring it into conversations about Christianity as it is contrary to scripture. you are trying to make Spiritual things you cannot understand into natural thing that you can. for your list of what lies ahead, give me scripture supporting each of them. you cannot because there are none.
healing power has been already given to followers of Christ, true followers.
Mark 16:15-18 15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
and this means if you accidently get snake bit while in the work of the Lord, it does not mean what the foolish people that antagonize snakes will be protected. you are not to tempt the Lord God.
you are speaking of things that only exist in the minds of people that do not believe in the word of God.
If you have any interest in TRUTH you need to stop reading foolishness from the minds of men and immerse yourself in the scriptures, not books of men, the bible amd study guidesYes really Diane! "Greater things than these shall you do..." What do you think that means? It mean healing the sick, raising the dead, transporting yourself from one physical location to another (as JESUS did), knowing what man thinks (reading minds)!
You know what, MOST don't BELIEVE what IS WRITTEN! Too weird for them!
The Holy Spirit is UNLIMITED POWER!When's the last time you did any of those things?
I placed hands on one (as the Holy Spirit asked me to) and he received the gift of the Holy Spirit recently!
What have you done in the Supernatural?
Kathryn - We absolutely must lose ourselves or we'll never receive the fullness of Christ, being locked out of eternity with him.
Yes, the small ego-attached self is replaced by the soul-devoted-to-God / immersed Self. The will is 100% involved. One cannot give up one's will. Inotherwords, we cannot force ourselves or anyone else to focus on the reality of Mighty Triple O. (Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipresent force of the universe.) But we can inspire ourselves and others, when they are open. Sometimes they are open due to suffering and they need a source of relief ... which God / Love always is.
"Can Jehovah's Witnesses be considered a subset of Christianity?"
Only until they knock on my door.They believe in Christ, so yes of course they are Christians.
But, if they are brainwashing each other with false doctrines, it could have a detrimental effect on their lives. It could rob them of being able to appropriately guide their free wills. It could rob them of Self power and true Self-realization. Of course, many Christians are doing this, I suppose.
Kathryn, you are right in saying "Of course, many Christians are doing this, I suppose." If Christians have "half truths" or "false doctrines" (as do JW'S) they're limiting themselves also. Why we don't see any manifestations of healing the sick, raising the dead, transporting ourselves from one geographical location to another, walking on water, walking through walls, reading another's mind, etc.
Therefore, all Christians are sub-sets of Christianity if there is such a thing!Kathryn, I didn't see your original post. Personally, if I find the Bible to have a non-truth or inconsistency, I will not waste my time.
We are suppose to be led by the Holy Spirit, not our own spirits. We have a sinful nature which causes us to think of self and not others. Our spirits cause us to justify sin because we "love" someone or we are doing what is best for us.
Examples: stealing because our family is starving, killing someone for any reason other than self defense, gossiping about other people in order to promote ourselves. taking drugs because they make us feel good, etc.
Our self-realizations conflict with self-realization of others. It is one thing to feel good talking about the self indulgences, which is dangerous in itself, but another to go through with them. When we dwell on what we feel we deserve we surely execute or go after that which is not good for us.
They believe that Christ is Michael the Archangel. (straight from their site)
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book … gel-jesus/
What Does the Bible Really Teach?
APPENDIX
Who Is Michael the Archangel?
00:0003:09
THE spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible. However, when he is referred to, he is in action. In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons. By defending Jehovah’s rulership and fighting God’s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name—“Who Is Like God?” But who is Michael?
At times, individuals are known by more than one name. For example, the patriarch Jacob is also known as Israel, and the apostle Peter, as Simon. (Genesis 49:1, 2; Matthew 10:2) Likewise, the, before and after his life on earth. Let us consider Scriptural reasons for drawing that conclusion.
Archangel. God’s Word refers to Michael “the archangel.” (Jude 9) This term means “chief angel.” Notice that Michael is called the archangel. This suggests that there is only one such angel. In fact, the term “archangel” occurs in the Bible only in the singular, never in the plural. Moreover, Jesus is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 states: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” Thus the voice of Jesus is described as being that of an archangel.
[u] This scripture therefore suggests that Jesus himself is the archangel Michael. [u]
Army Leader. The Bible states that “Michael and his angels battled with the dragon . . . and its angels.” (Revelation 12:7) Thus, Michael is the Leader of an army of faithful angels. Revelation also describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Revelation 19:14-16) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31; 1 Peter 3:22) Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven—one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus—it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role. *
Nowhere in the Bible is Christ, Jesus, the Song of God, I AM, referred to as Michael the Archangel.Well my underline didn't work! Look at single sentence [u]
I have references from last week in prior messages.
JW believe what they believe; however, it is not a Christian belief. Christian belief (Followers of Christ) Jesus Christ is God.If Jesus is God why does he talk to God on the cross? why does he call Him Father? Why did he ask His Father to forgive them for not knowing what they do. He could have said," I, God, forgive them. They know not what they do!"
Jesus was so in line with God, however, he had God's powers. He was essentially one with Him, but maintained his own individuality. As we all can (potentially) do.
TWISI
Am I a Christian?
No?Kathryn, that is the Doctrine of the Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. If you'd like I can open a forum on that.
Father, Son and Holy Ghost. and what are we in relation to that potentially unified force?
Kathryn, I feel badly because I don't want to put you off but the Trinity is a deep, deep discussion. Many non-Christians don't believe it. Here is a hub on the Trinity:
http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy … oly-Spirit
I found many hubs that disagree with it.
I try very diligently not too ever put another down because they believe differently than I believe. JW's do not even really believe in the same God that we believe in. We have a triune God which exists in three persons the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. From Genesis we will make man in Our image. This implies a plural God. This is evident throughout scripture. Jesus tells us many times exactly who He is.
Several months ago JWs were at my door and I was very nice to them but told them that they do not believe in the same God that I believe in. They asked if they could come back the next week and discuss further. I agreed. The next week I had 60 or so scriptures which showed the deity of Jesus. I gave them bottled water as it was quite hot. They took the water but they never returned. Oh well I was simply sharing scripture.
We all have to try to understand that we needed a Savior. I know that I am a sinner and needed a Savior and that I have one in Jesus. The world is a very sad and lost place. We can teach others through our actions. You know the whole they will know we are Christians by our love ... By our love. So opportunities do exist to share and we need to try to do that without judgment. God can take care of that part.
One other area the JWs do not quite get is they are somehow convinced they can earn Heaven. Not going to happen. It has been earned for us and if that does not make the world humble than probably nothing will.
Blessings to all of you!
It has to be scientifically sound. not just "philosophical."
We need the front tire.
If you think it is, (scientifically sound) thats good enough for me.It is found throughout our history and our archaeology. For instance theTel Dan inscription which proves theHouseofDavid truly existed. ThePilate Stone showing the reality of the said procurator. Writings of non Christians such as Tacitus which reference the crucifixion andthestart of Christianity. The Codices which were the first writings which later became the basis for books of the Bible andcertainlythe Bible itself and the multitude of prophesies. I guess Ijust do not believe in all of that being some great coincidence as any unbelievers seem to think.
"This implies a plural God. This is evident throughout scripture. Jesus tells us many times exactly who He is."
Really?
If heaven is earned already, how do we get there?Romans 10 verse 9.
We all can be doubting Thomases at times but He is ever so real.
Thomas you believe because you see. Blessed are those who don't see yet still believe.Who does Jesus say he is?
Faith comes from believing something we have reason to believe.I and the Father are one in Christ Consciousness. As each of us can be.
TWISIKathryn,
The Bible has stern warnings for those who add or take away from what is written. "in Christ Consciousness" is not in the Bible.
Warnings
Rev 22:19 King James Bible
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Deuteronomy 4:2New American Standard Bible (NASB)
2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
Matthew 6:22-23King James Version (KJV)
22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!I don't consider religion's issue a big deal because the most important thing is man's adherence to the teaching of his or her religious sect or way of life. Whether Jehova's witnesses is a .subset of Christianity or not, it does not matter. What is important are the followers of this group whether or not they become truly human, truly divine.
GB
There are many, many religions but Christianity is the only religion which has an answer for sin. The only religion which has a Savior. The Bible talks about us being filthy rags where we could never earn Heaven. Many other belief systems including JW s believe Heaven can be earned. We are not Devine but He is. He becomes our substitute for sin. Our interceder if you will. It is not our righteousness but His righteousness which saves us. There is nothing holy about being human. All of us need to be humble and thankful. Jesus has done the hard part and the rest is up to us,
Blessings to you.Thank you for a very clear response, Damian10. I got your point. I came across many spiritual doctrines such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Taoism, and Christianity. They all have a common denominator which is God, but they claim they the true God and others have none. Well, I must admit I am an existentialist, and I believe only that which my mind and my senses can perceive. Have a beautiful day!
Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord!
The love of God amazes me everyday, and His grace and mercy are unceasing toward me. He is faithful even when I am not and nothing ever separates me from the love of God. When I am my weakest, He is strong. When I am broken, He lifts me up and mends my broken heart. When I am downtrodden, He is the lifter of my head. When I am in despare and have lost all hope, He lets me know His tender mercy and makes everything I endured worth it just know Him.
The important matters of the law are justice, mercy and faithfulness.
Saul was a Pharisee until he met Jesus, then he became Paul.
But, somehow Pharisee = bad?
However, I believe we all need to guard our hearts and minds from having high expectations of others and judging others. Jesus clearly taught that whatever we do for the least of us, we do it unto Him. So! Would it be right to buy a homeless person a meal, eat with them and get to know them? How about spending time to get to know a prostitute and hang-out with them a while?Praise God! I was just thinking how people try to make Christianity complicated. It's not about a denomination or even living a certain way. HOWEVER, if you love Him you will want to please Him. That means communicating with Him through prayer and reading His Word. Then you will want to please Him just as you want to please anyone you love.
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
John 3:16King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1 John 5:12
He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAczIObBWI4
Former Jehovah's Witness testimony - Go 7 minutes in unless you want to see the whole thing.
Disfellowshipped JWs tell their testimony
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNfKzrHo8Z4
Difference between JWs and Christians
1. JWs disfellowship process
2. Crhistians ask God for forgiveness and He forgives 1 John 1:9
1 John 1:9King James Version (KJV)
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.There are quite a few sects who have a disfellowship policy, or shunning. Are you saying they aren't Christians either?
I think disfellowship is counter to God's love and forgiveness. I'm sure a person trying to running a brothel in the back would give very serious concern.
The churches I attend are open to whosoever will come. For membership there are classes to ascertain that a person has accepted Christ. If a leader commits adultery, the person is removed from leadership but they are still members.
I have not been a member of a church that had a disfellowship policy.That wasn't the question. I've never been involved in a church that advocates disfellowship either. You stated the difference between jw and Christians. Implying by that that jw are not Christians. So, are you then asserting that the Amish aren't Christian? Mennonites aren't Christian? Those are two sects which come to mind which do shun members.
I'm simply confused when a professed Christian goes out of their way to insist others aren't Christian. It's very unchristian, by my understanding of the teachings of Jesus.The subject is JW - is it a subset of Christianity.
I looked up Mennonites and Amish to see what their beliefs are. They believe in the trinity. This is not what JW believes.
… Christians
We believe in the lordship and saving grace of Jesus Christ. We yearn to grow more like Christ. We believe in the triune God – Father, Son and Holy Spirit. - This is standard
http://mennoniteusa.org/who-we-are/
Amish Beliefs
Christian beliefs characterize the Amish worldview. Their convictions are virtually the same as that of the Mennonites and other religious reformers. They believe in the importance of individual Bible study and the necessity of living a life free of sin after adult baptism. The Amish are primarily set apart from other Mennonites in their great emphasis on the values of humility, family, community, and separation from the world. Two key concepts for understanding Amish practices are their revulsion of Hochmut (pride, arrogance, haughtiness) and the high value they place on Demut (humility) and Gelassenheit (calmness, composure, placidity). This all translates into a reluctance to be forward, self-promoting, or to assert oneself in any way. The willingness to submit to the will of God, as expressed through group norms, is at odds with the individualism that is central to general American culture.
http://www.religionfacts.com/amishWhy is it very unChristian? We shouldn't make up our own definitions. The Bible speaks of how to recognize false prophets and false teaching.
1 John 4
On Denying the Incarnation
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
It is a Christian's responsibility to know false teaching.Your reference to John would make those you are accusing of not being Christian to be Christian.
Most JW I know have never claimed that Jesus didn't come in the flesh. They have some weird ideas as to how he rose from the grave and ascended to heaven but they believe he was from God and a real human being.That is true, Witnesses have never promoted any idea that Jesus never came to the Earth physically. And, yes they believe that he is God's Son, not some extension of God himself and was a real human being. God cannot die, but Christ died and was resurrected by His Father. Otherwise, what is the point of all of this?
The ransom sacrifice made on behalf of humanity based upon the death of Jesus, and the foundation of Christian religion that thru his sacrifice and death man's 'death sentence' as penalty for breaking the law (sin), need not be in fact our fate. If Christ is God, how is there a ransom sacrifice that saves the world if Jesus cannot die, because He in fact is God.
The point is why go to church on Sunday, instead of reading the funny papers in the morning, instead? Why all of the outreach, what is the 'good news', etc?
So, what is the point of the discussion in this forum, if there is not something of value being debated? If it were all just hocus-pocus, I am sure that we find other things to do...I think people put too much emphasis on attempting to break it all down point by point and trying to make full rhyme and reason of it. We are talking about a metaphysical world which we cannot observe so to put so much emphasis on who is right and who is wrong is silly. No one can prove anything. I am a proponent of the belief that the sacrifice did happen. It was a gift to humanity. I think modern day (and ancient) Christianity is simply attempting to be selfish by finding ways to think the gift is denied to others.
I think Jesus may have been God in the flesh but I don't see that as a problem. He was born of man and he was handicapped with our physical limitations. Even if a part of him truly knew his real essence I would think the human part of him would doubt. There is evidence that he did. But, he persevered in spite of that.
I'm afraid I see the good news as the fact that the sacrifice was made. For all of humanity. I don't believe you have to claim to be a Christian to benefit. The Christian benefits by knowing and believing it. The non Christian hasn't lost out. The sacrifice was made for all. They simply have lost the joy of knowing and believing what is.There are a lot of YouTube videos about the JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES Are a Masonic, Satanic Cult. Illuminati Freemason anti-christ pedophiles. etc.
People should research this on their own. Pedophilia is being exposed. JW has settled several sexual abuse cases, but of course they wish to hide such practices, clocked under religion. JW protect the pedophiles rather than the children according to reports.
That would give Christianity a bad name.
I think that people who get drawn into JW are basically good people just like anyone else. I would warn anyone to do some checking on their own before joining, but we all have our own free will.
Jesus did not have a human birth. Mary was a virgin at the time of Jesus' birth. She later married Joseph and had other children.
You have a right to believe what you want; however, the Bible (without the Watchtower) give the real story. It must be read, not cherry picked, in order for it to make sense.
Luke 1:35
The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
Matthew 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.If there was no human birth could you explain to me how he got from the inside of Mary to the outside? You can certainly ignore the fact that Mary was his mother but I don't think that is wise. He was a son of man and a son of God. Man, referring to the maternal side.
We're getting conversations mixed up here. I was responded to Live to Learn. For JW's to believe He is Michael the Archangel, though I disagree with that, does suggest something other than human birth. My response was to Live to Learn.
No one that I am aware of. However, he grew in the womb like any baby and he was born a natural birth. His mother was human. Mary is repeatedly referred to as his mother. Unless you are claiming that she wasn't human I'm not sure how you are coming up with the statement that he wasn't.
He was fully man when he was born. He was fully God before the beginning of time. Mary absolutely gave birth to Him.
It truly is a wonder to some that cannot accept God's Word. Somethings are just to be accepted and can't be explained to the carnal mind, they only need to be received by the understanding of the spirit (heart). You just know that you know in your knower. I am in awe of how God does things!
Yeah! Thank you lady! I was asking on tech support "What the heck?" I got notice that 3 people made comments and they never showed up.
What did you do????Apparently I have magical powers.
You're welcome Let the discussion continue!Someone made two replies, one was to a post of mine about the 144,000 question I asked, so I shined some light on them. Their posts disappeared quickly, so I deleted mine also, (three).
I'll know to leave a post if that ever happens again.
Blessing on your heads...That was driving me nuts Colorful! Can you brief me on what it was about? I don't know why the comments would have disappeared. I didn't do it. Everyone is being respectful and I like to read everything!
Diane, studying with the Witnesses, there is no one that says that Jesu's birth was not divine. If I recall, Mary's Husband, Joseph was visited by Angels that told him that the child Mary bears was of divine origin and that Mary was not responsible for any violation of her marriage covenent.
None of the Witnesses nor the Watchtower disputes this well known fact. Misinformation can come from a variety of sources....
This was in response to it not being Christian to say others are not Christian.
I'm not certain I am following your point. You have repeatedly implied that you do not think JW are Christian. By one criteria you set forth that would mean several other sects would, by your definition, not be Christian. Honestly, that could be construed as an attempt to deny others of Christ. Sounds very unchristian to me.
Live, you are entitled to your opinion. It sounds like you view some "world sects" as non-Christian. Why do you think they are not?
I speak of JW because the forum is about JW and Christianity. I didn't want a free for all to talk about everything because the theme is hard to follow. World sects might be another forum.
I have provided YouTube videos of former JWs giving their testimonies. There are former JWs on HP that write about their prior experiences. I can understand you not accepting what I say. What about the testimonies of those who were in JW for years?
Why do Jehovah's Witness's claim there will only be 144,000 people allowed into heaven? What about the rest, will they remain on earth or be annihilated? (not rhetorical questions)
Are they telling Jesus (God) how heaven is suppose to be run?
Debunking Jehovah's Witnesses in 1 minute or less
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb3EkffCRt0I brought this up early on. It seems they insist that they are Christians but can't explain
1) 144K
2) People sleeping in graves for eternity
3) Jesus being Michael the Archangel
4) No hell/eternal lake of fire (Charles Taze Russell's invention)I have listened to and read about many JW's stories who left.
Testimony after testimony the stories are basically the same.
JW is based on lies to control, is what they all have to say.
Its crazy!
"Jehovah's Witness elder clears his conscious"
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be2LtDKTYhE
Deleted
I Corinthians 5:11-13
(v11) "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or and idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; which such an one do not to eat."
(v12) For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not judge them that are within?
(v13) But them that are without GOD (WORD) judgeth! Therefore, PUT AWAY FROM AMONG YOURSELVES THAT WICKED PERSON."
I continue to say, JW'S have "half truths" as do MOST denominations!
"Whosoever will let him "COME" (Revelation 22:17), but they have to "COME!"
Hebrew: Miriam.
Mary was the wife of Joseph and the mother of Jesus Christ, who was conceived within her by the Holy Spirit when she was a virgin. She is often called the “Virgin Mary,” though never in Scripture are those two words put together as a proper name (Matt. 2:11; Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:27; Acts 1:14)...
* http://www.christiananswers.net/diction … jesus.htmlWhen ANYONE does not "preach the Gospel of Christ" which is AFTER THE CROSS or AFTER THE DAY OF PENTECOST, they do not serve GOD! No matter how many verses they quote, no matter how much they say they love GOD, no matter what their "belief" is, they will be "ACCURSED" (Galatians 1:6-9)!
And to this date, the continue to "pervert the gospel of Christ," (Galatians 1:7) serving their own god!Are you being facetious, keeping the peace or REAL?
If real, answer this question: How then were you baptized (Acts 19:3)?
If no response, you've answered my question!Three times once as a baby sprinkled. Once when saved at 17 and once in the Gulf of Mexico with my wife by our Pastor. Baptism is a way to humble ourselves before God. I am human and there is nothing holy about me. He is holy and all I do is hold on to His coat tails.
Thank yo Damien. I was baptized twice. At the age of 7, not a Christian, because my sister was being baptized.
At 28 I was baptized as a public profession of my faith, after I had accepted Christ 4 months before.Diane,
You are obviously blessed to be a Christian. Anyone can see that. Probably being naive but I only know of being baptized in the only name that saves ... Jesus Christ.Amen Damian!
I'm still awaiting Diane's response.Norine,
She is obviously a Christian or she would not have written this hub. You are also blessed yourself. Read your journey with the sickness. Not close to comparing but I have MS and I would have NEVER thought it would be a blessing but it has been. Really amazing how God works.Damian, No one can be a "Christian" just because they posed a question concerning FALSE DOCTRINE when they themselves are not living according to HIS WORD!
My asking is for "correction" (II Timothy 2:15)! MOST denominations say they are "Christians," yet do not live under the New Covenant therefore "Christ died in vain!" They know the WORD, but because of "teachings, traditions, schools and seminaries," have neglected or disregarded what Scripture says!
Diane is "very knowledgeable" in WORD yet continues to ignore Scripture! She knows we can't live under both Covenants (Galatians 4)!
GOD is still in the healing business! Accept HIS WORD (Isaiah 53:3), BELIEVING and repeating daily "Thank you JESUS for my healing" no matter how you feel, no matter how it appears to man, no matter what the doctor's say, for WE KNOW we serve a TRUE and a LIVING GOD!
"Is there ANYTHING too hard for GOD" (Jeremiah 32:27)?You are right you cannot know another person's heart but Diane seems like the real deal believer to me. She talks about Jesus and certainly that denotes the new covenant. Be blessed.
Praise God and thank you Damian! I write Christian Hubs and attempt to write all of my Hubs in a way that will not bring shame to the Name of the Lord, Jesus Christ.
You will "bring shame to the Name of the Lord, Jesus Christ," if you neglect to do as He's asked in I Peter 3:15 "...give an answer to EVERY man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with "meekness" and "fear" and continue to proclaim "Christianity;" not to mention what you're doing to yourself!
GOD "SEES!"
Again, "How then were you baptized" (Acts 19:3)?How many answers do you give Norine?
Romans 12:3
For I say to every man that is among you, through the grace given unto me, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
You do the same thing to everybody. I do not go to your Hubs making accusations about you.
James 4:11
Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.I just asked a question but now I know!
I didn't "judge," WORD did! I gave I Peter 3:15! GOD judged!
You are welcome to come and question ANYTHING in which you think I error! That's what TRUE CHRISTIANS do! Leviticus 19:17 says "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise "rebuke" thy neighbor, and "not suffer sin upon him." Am I not?
Diane, you are a "soul" to me as everyone else! My desire, none is lost! I just want to remind you, you cannot say you believe in the New Covenant or the Gospel of Christ if you don't live accordingly. Galatians 1:6-9 says "If anyone "preach" (or don't live according to) any other gospel, they will be "ACCURSED!" I don't want to see anyone "ACCURSED" {paraphrasing}! Why do you think I keep repeating that Scripture?
You should "study" baptism under the New Covenant!John 14:6. I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Love you Damian!
As stated previously, there are "half truths" in ALL Religions but it's time ALL know THE TRUTH!
I Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment MUST begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not "The Gospel of Christ?"
Amen. The only way to the Father is through the Son.
Don't be facetious!
FIRST, I was asking Diane!
SECOND, since you responded, "In what NAME were you baptized?
Since I've so far not received a response from Diane, I can only assume it was not under the New Covenant.
Awaiting response Diane based on I Peter 3:15 "...be ready ALWAYS to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear."
I can say the JW'S do have "half truths!" They have baptism right!Norine, I don't know what you are getting attitude. What is with the attitude? Were you baptized under the New Covenant. I don't mind sharing my testimony. May I hear yours first.
No attitude! I just want to know if you were true in your "Amen!" If you "preach the gospel of Christ," of course, you live according to IT! Therefore, you MUST have been baptized (as I) according to Acts 19:5 - RIGHT?
A prayer you can pray:
Lord, send the Comforter to comfort the family members and friends of all of those who lost their lives in the terrorist activity yesterday in Orlando. We grieve with those who mourn today, Lord. We ask that You would be Healer to those who were wounded. Heal them completely and miraculously, Lord, body and soul, and introduce them to Your Son, that their spirit may be saved, transformed and made whole. Deliver them from the effects of the trauma, Lord. Sweep through Orlando with a spirit of revival, Holy Spirit, even as on the day of Pentecost! Amen.
A decree:
We command all terrorist plots against this nation to be uncovered now in Jesus’ Name!Again, Get It Right, people for "The kingdom of GOD is at hand" (Matthew 3:2)!
GOD is gathering HIS ARMY! Don't you want to be in that number with those living AFTER THE DAY OF PENTECOST or continue to "...please men rather than GOD" (Galatians 1:10)?The prayer to which I do agree but MOST IMPORTANTLY the time is nigh! HE'S coming again (sooner than we think) and HE is "forming HIS ARMY" which has nothing to do with "terrorist attacks" (ALL SPIRITUAL) so GET READY!
Related Discussions
- 18
Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe Jesus Is Michael The Archangel?
by PhoenixV 7 years ago
Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe Jesus Is Michael The Archangel?What is the Scriptural support for this?
- 5
Are Jehovah's Witnesses Christians or not?
by Cory J. Clark 12 years ago
Are Jehovah's Witnesses Christians or not?
- 87
Where are the "Jehovah's Witnesses!??!!!!!!!
by TheLoanConsultant 13 years ago
Ok. I have become aware of what Jehovah's Witnesses have been teaching concerning Salvation, the Afterlife, & many other things in the bible, and quite frankly I have had enough already!!! I'm sick and tired of "Jehovah's Witnesses" parading themselves around the street like they have...
- 106
Is there no heaven for Jehovah Witness women
by Castlepaloma 12 years ago
I ask a Jehovah woman that came to my doorWill only 144,000 men make it to heaven , She said yes.There will be no heaven for me or for women or paradise on earth, can that be true?
- 10
What do you do when Christian evangelists (Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Baptist
by Torch Harrison 9 years ago
What do you do when Christian evangelists (Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Baptists) show up at...your door?
- 7
What Are The Biggest Differences Between Jehovah's Witnesses And Protestant Deno
by PhoenixV 7 years ago
What Are The Biggest Differences Between Jehovah's Witnesses And Protestant Denominations?