Why Do Social Conservatives Insist on Keeping Abortion Rates High?

1. 87

   My Esotericposted 6 years ago

   Statistics show, as of 2013 anyway, that:
   
   1.  Reported abortion rates in the US is the same in 2014 as it was in 1973, pre-Roe v Wade.  "Reported" is key because a very high number of abortions prior to 1973 were illegal and went unreported.  After Roe v Wade, the reported number of abortions grew substantially.  Not because there were more abortions (although that was certainly the case) but because previous unreported illegal abortions were now being reported.  Once it hit its high point in 1981, the rate of abortions has been declining steadily.
   2.  In recent years, because of many Red state efforts to restrict abortions, the number of unreported abortions are probably climbing in those states.
   3. In Europe, where abortions are legal and safe sex and family planning education is pushed, the abortion rate is a whopping 43% lower than in the US!  Why is that?? (according to Lancet)
   
   Bottom line, in the US where social conservatives and fundamentalist religions fight very hard to make abortion illegal, abortions rates are high when compared to Europe where abortion is not an issue.  The result, in America the rate of abortion of fetuses is much higher than it otherwise ought to be.

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   1. 61

      Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I'm pro choice and I am offended by the right's desire to subjugate women to their perception of a moral stand but, I've got to say, I don't follow this logic; if it can be called that.

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      1. 87

         My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         Finally got my power back on which allowed me to read through the posts this questions generated.
         
         Obviously, the title and question is hyperbolic in order to grab attention, like any good title should do.  Hyperbolic or not, it raises a serious issue.which is does social-conservative's single-minded drive to make abortions illegal actually keep rates higher than they normally would be if they abandoned their campaign.  At least using the facts (yes, they are facts which you deny further down) presented above.
         
         The logic is similar to the reaction of their children when the parents forbid them to do something.  Conversely, the flip-side is tell your kids to do something you don't want them to do ... reverse psychology.
         
         Northern Europe, both Christian-based and highly developed just like America, have two things different from America on this issue: 1) abortion is neither legally nor culturally frowned upon and 2) there abortion rates ARE lower, by about 43% according to the scientific journal Lancet. (37% lower using the data you provided from CBS).
         
         That, of course, begs the Big Question I asked ... Why is this true?  Why aren't America's rates lower given the huge push social-conservatives and made to abolish abortion in this country?
         
         Embedded in the other statistic I offered.  In 1973, before Roe v Wade, the REPORTED abortion rate was about 16.3 per 1000.  In 1981, eight years after Roe v. Wade it was 29.3 per 1000.
         
         Now I realize that those on the Right claimed this huge rise "proved" their point that Roe v. Wade would explode the abortion rate.  The numbers seem to say that, but the numbers don't take into account the Huge number of UNREPORTED abortions that were not part of the 16.3 figure.  In fact, based on where the abortion rate topped out at, the actual abortion rate was probably closer to 23 or so, and not the 16.3 that was reported. 
         
         Did abortions increase once the dam was removed, of course they did, but not nearly as much as the social conservatives would have you believe.  The proof in what I assert is that after reaching its peak, and BEFORE social conservatives started their frontal assault on a woman's right to choose, the rate started to steadily decline.  If the social conservatives were right, why would this happen?  Why would it decline (without help from the Right)?  The answer is, it wouldn't unless the actually rate of 16.3 was way too low.
         
         Now, given that that the rate has declined to 14.6 as of 2014, more or less evenly as education, access to contraceptives, and access to family planning has steadily increased, This would seem to suggest those measures were successfully lowering abortion rates even before social conservatives gathered their forces.
         
         What would interesting is to gather abortion rate statistics by state and compare those where the social conservatives have been successful to those where they have they have not to see if abortion rates are changing.

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         1. 61

            Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            I don't know what facts you think I am ignoring. Do people get abortions? Of course they do. Are abortion rates in the U.S. significantly higher than other western nations? It doesn't appear to me that they are. From the facts I can find. If you would be so kind as to supply some which prove it; please do so. But, higher or lower; looking at the abortion rates we should attempt to find ways to lower them.
            
            
            
            So, are you saying that women are purposely getting pregnant so that they can get abortions in order to thumb their nose at the Republican party? Are you saying women are children who have more rights to make decisions for their own bodies than is good for them?
            
            Either way, as a woman, I find this 'logic' (and I put logic in between apostrophes because either or is equally offensive to me).
            
            
            
            So, we see that different sources provide different figures. I have found that 'sources' usually find the figures that support their argument. But, I'll just use the source I found to reply by. 17 out of 1000 and 19 out of 1000 are fairly close, in my mind.
            
            
            
            My personal opinion on that subject has to do with not making young girls responsible for their decisions, selling sex on everything from cereal commercials to the big screen, allowing companies to not cover birth control but having no problem with covering male sexual enhancement drugs.
            
            
            
            Well, let's look at that era in America. Women were finally moving toward some equality. Women were becoming more and more a part of the work force. I'm not surprised that there was an uptick in the abortion rate. But, you are looking at statistics from 36 years ago. Why? I would guess that is because that most shores up your attempt at presenting a reasonable argument.
            
            
            
            I'd say you are probably correct. But, I don't think anything "proves" anything which should be used for political purposes. I don't think Democrats wanting Planned Parenthood to stay funded raises or lowers abortion rates. I don't think Republicans insisting that life begins directly following the sexual act raises or lowers abortions. Blaming either party for the abortion rate is a convenient way to ignore the women who are in need of help.
            
            
            
            Again, I don't think either side has any effect on the number of abortions. Our culture has made sex more open, accessible and accepted. The result of that will be more pregnancies and more abortions.
            
            
            
            Maybe. And, maybe it is simply because children are growing up faster than we did when we were young. Maybe, they are seeing more and more the problems associated with unprotected sex and are being more mature in their choices. None of which has to do with the success or failure of either party. And, maybe it is due to more parents accepting the reality of the world we live in and moving to help their kids protect themselves when they do what teenagers have done since time began.
            
            
            
            That would be an interesting thing to look at.

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            1. 87

               My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

               "But, higher or lower; looking at the abortion rates we should attempt to find ways to lower them."
               
               Of course we should and those things that seem to work, such as education and family planning support, should be federally supported and improved upon.  The problem is, social conservatives are pushing to limit those, and in some states they have been very successful, unfortunately.

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            2. 87

               My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

               "So, are you saying that women are purposely getting pregnant so that they can get abortions in order to thumb their nose at the Republican party? Are you saying women are children who have more rights to make decisions for their own bodies than is good for them?"
               
               I assume you are responding to somebody else's post for I certainly didn't say or suggest such a thing.

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                  Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Of course you did. You said 'The logic is similar to the reaction of their children when the parents forbid them to do something.  Conversely, the flip-side is tell your kids to do something you don't want them to do ... reverse psychology.'
                  
                  If you didn't mean that, can you explain this sentence of yours? As it applies to adult women; which is who you were talking about.

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            3. 87

               My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

               "My personal opinion on that subject has to do with not making young girls responsible for their decisions, selling sex on everything from cereal commercials to the big screen, allowing companies to not cover birth control but having no problem with covering male sexual enhancement drugs. "
               
               Well, while the objects of your sentence certainly make sense, I am not sure how the first 10 words relate to them or where you are going with it.
               
               "But, you are looking at statistics from 36 years ago. "  Of course I do, they tell an important story when applied to issues today.  That's what good statisticians do, look at all applicable relevant information and if it happens to be 36 years ago, there is no sensible reason not to use it.

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                  Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  But, you are not looking at all applicable relevant information. You are using a 36 year old statistic without putting it into context. If you look at how women had been treated, historically, up until the beginning of women's liberation and you look at the timing for this statistic you can see a direct correlation between gaining more freedoms and coming to grips with learning how to deal with those freedoms.

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            4. 87

               My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

               And what is your logic for this "I don't think Democrats wanting Planned Parenthood to stay funded raises or lowers abortion rates. "?

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      wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I'm with LTL: the logic doesn't follow at all.  You seem to be saying that:
      
      1. conservatives fight very hard to end abortions
      2. European abortion rates are lower
      3. therefore it is the efforts to end abortions that cause abortions.
      
      I'm sorry, but the conclusion being drawn is in no manner supported by the statements about abortion rates.  You will have to expand the sequence much further to show any connection or causal effect.

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      1. 87

         My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         You left something out Wilderness.
         1. conservatives fight very hard to end abortions AND
         2. European's support woman's right to choose and do things to convince women not to have abortions (and probably make adoptions much easier) UNION
         2. European abortion rates are lower
         3. therefore, it is the efforts to end abortions that keep abortion rates higher in America than in Europe.

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         1. 94

            wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, I certainly did!  Because you left it out yourself:  "2. European's support woman's right to choose and do things to convince women not to have abortions (and probably make adoptions much easier) UNION".
            
            Leaving out the only part that matters - that Europe discourages abortions in a variety of ways - and trying to put all the cause for America's high abortion rate on the fight to end abortions is what caused my disagreement.  With the addition of that little sentence, the causality shifts from American conservatives to European efforts and makes all the difference. 
            
            Your assumption that American conservatives cause abortions with their efforts to end abortions is thus totally false.  That the difference in abortion rates would be all the better with some statistical proof that European efforts (vs perhaps lack of religion, culture or intense objection from other countries) are causal to the difference, but at least the logical train can include it, where it simply did not include the thought that conservative efforts to end abortion instead caused more abortions.

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            1. 87

               My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

               And where did I do this? "... and trying to put all the cause for America's high abortion rate on the fight to end abortions is what caused my disagreement."
               
               I believe I said this "Unfortunately, this forum isn't about "That is not the same as causing abortion rates to be higher. ", it is preventing them from being lower." WHICH is an entirely different thing than the words you're putting in my mouth.
               
               The thing that social conservatives "cause" in this area is pain and suffering of women.   But then that is the history of social fundamentalism whether it be Christian, Muslim, or Jewish, is the subjugation of women.

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               1. 94

                  wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  I seem to have concluded your statement "That <fighting to end abortion> is not the same as causing abortion rates to be higher. ", it is preventing them from being lower." means that fighting to end abortions prevents them from being lower than they are.  That is, higher than they would be if there was no fight to end them.  My apologies if your intent was to say that it causes pain to women rather than prevent abortion levels to be lower, but I did not write those words; you did, and the words written have nothing to do with causing pain.

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                     My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                     It is obvious that the pain and suffering that I am referring to is caused by the social conservative's draconian attempts to stop women from having abortions.

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                     1. 94

                        wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                        It is, although only partially truthfully (if they kept their pants on there would be no pain and suffering - to put it all on abortion efforts seems a trifle out of place).
                        
                        If you had said that in the first place, talking about pain and suffering instead of "That is not the same as causing abortion rates to be higher. ", it is preventing them <abortion rates> from being lower."  But you didn't, and I took your meaning from the words you wrote rather than what you were thinking.  My bad.

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               2. 76

                  Misfit Chickposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Exactly. The reason why it is 'mostly Christians' in this country (certainly not all, other religions are represented in this graphic), is because Christianity is the most dominant religion in America - in just about all of its many variations.
                  
                  In most Muslim countries, abortion is flat-out illegal (sometimes with medical or rape exceptions) - and abortion is almost non-existant. But, the lives of women & girls, in general, are also very curtailed. They certainly are not very free NOR necessarily safe. Should we chalk those countries up as having successful abortion policies?
                  
                  No, because they have the same problems as our Conservatives in America do: religious, community & cultural supression & oppression of women. The only difference is in the way the harmful symptoms play out within each different type of society.
                  
                  In America, our abortion rates are high (among other things). In Muslim countries, we can plainly-see how women & girls are viewed and mistreated - despite that men try to keep a fanatical control of everything. While most of us in America pretend that we have no symptoms; Muslim countries are somehow able to 'enforce' their harmful, radical beliefs.
                  
                  - which is what Christians here WANT to do by establishing laws against abortion INSTEAD of dealing with the MANY reasons WHY girls choose abortion here.
                  
                  Would you rather deal with the root cause of a problem; and greatly-diminish it by dealing with the cause? Or, would you rather keep things within mainstream, status quo ideals - and keep pretending nothing wrong is going on?
                  
                  Perception is everything: denial or realization, which is it going to be?
                  
                  I'll repost these for more information, since it has been awhile:
                  
                  Why Do Christian Girls Have Abortions; and Why Are Christian Adults Out of Touch?
                  http://misfitchick.blogspot.com/2016/02 … tions.html
                  
                  Why do Christians women utilize the 'sin' of abortion the most in the United States?
                  https://hubpages.com/religion-philosoph … ted-states
                  
                  Survey for Christian Congregations on Abortion: How Well Do You Know Your People?
                  https://hubpages.com/religion-philosoph … our-People
                  
                  

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                     My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                     Keep in mind also that if it weren't for that dastardly "political correctness" the fundamentalist Christians would be treating their women the same way fundamentalist Muslims do.
                     
                     (BTW, if you go to the largest concentration of Muslims in the world, Indonesia, you would find women are treated much like they are in America.)

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                  2. 94

                     wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                     As with so many others, you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge the root of the problem, instead denigrating Christians for their beliefs.
                     
                     Should you wish to actually DO something about the problem, convince the Christian coalition that a fetus is not a person - that aborting one is no more sinful than cutting a fingernail or removing a tumor.  Telling that group that they are evil, that they want to control and oppress women...well, that makes no more sense than saying that women have an innate right to murder at will, for preventing murder is not oppression.

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   3. 84

      gmwilliamsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      +1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000!!!!

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   4. 76

      Misfit Chickposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Very good points. As expressed by some in here, most people don't understand where this logic is coming from. I've written about it:
      
      Survey for Christian Congregations on Abortion: How Well Do You Know Your People?
      https://hubpages.com/religion-philosoph … our-People
      
      Why do Christians women utilize the 'sin' of abortion the most in the United States?
      https://hubpages.com/religion-philosoph … ted-states
      
      Why Do Christian Girls Have Abortions; and Why Are Christian Adults Out of Touch?
      http://misfitchick.blogspot.com/2016/02 … tions.html
      
      I also make a really good case for people who (mostly) don't understand the differences between the two main types of Christian-conservatives in this post:
      
      Why do many Christians believe God called Trump but not Obama?
      https://hubpages.com/politics/forum/142 … -not-obama
      
      Conservatives who are 'extremists' are the 'under-educated' and/or 'brainwashed' who cannot follow the logic regarding THEIR responsibility behind things like abortion or demonizing politicians and so many other harmful things that they perpetuate in our cultures... And 'moderate' or even 'liberal' Christians (yes, they DO exists!) need to start speaking out LOUDER to control these conversations better, instead of continuing to make it seem like extremists speak for all of them.
      
      Conservatives keep abortion rates high by pushing against it as hard as they do - while denying that Christian believers within their congregations ARE suffering in many dramatic ways over the LACK of understanding about this subject. When they start to figure that out, is when abortions will begin to diminish - and not ONE DAMN SECOND before.
      
      This situation is actually another really good example of the Universal Law of Attraction at play: whatever you give your attention to becomes BIGGER and certainly doesn't EVER go away.
      
      

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2. 73

   Angel Guzmanposted 6 years ago

   Very counter productive what they want. Just allow real science based sexual education, easy birth control access, and allow safe access to abortion  and rates will go down. Stop making or trying to make private intimate choices for families!

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      MizBejabbersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Exactly, and it is also counterproductive because people are going to flaunt the law and do exactly the opposite. Remember studying about Prohibition?  It didn't take the government long to realize that it couldn't be successfully enforced.
      I haven't looked at abortion statistics, but as late as 1965, Connecticut had outlawed selling contraceptives to married couples. In 1972 unmarried couples received the right to purchase contraceptives. MY Esoteric stated that the statistics were the highest in 1973. I wonder how many of them were in Connecticut.
      What took them so long? This Catholic state was forcing its religious tenets on the people in violation of the First Amendment.

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   2. 87

      My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Absotutely.

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3. 0

   PrettyPantherposted 6 years ago

   Because it isn't really about abortion. It's about sex. Specifically, women having sex. Many of these social conservatives can't stand the idea of free women freely having sex. They want to control us and make us suffer dire consequences for daring to have sexual freedom and power.

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   1. 87

      My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      That is certainly true Pretty.

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4. 78

   Kathleen Cochranposted 6 years ago

   1. Lack of sex education. 
   2. One generation thinking the next generation will somehow behave differently than they did.
   3. Government provided healthcare.

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5. 61

   Live to Learnposted 6 years ago

   I think the thing that bothers me most is that
   
   1. Someone makes a claim.
   2. Someone doesn't bother to back the claim with facts.
   3. Others believe the claim without attempting to determine if true.
   4. People attempt to have an intelligent discussion based on a false claim.
   
   It appears to me that abortion rates in America are within close parameters as those in parts of Europe. Slightly higher than some countries slightly lower than others, markedly lower than some.
   
   So, by attempting to pretend that the Republican party is somehow responsible for something that doesn't exist tells us what?
   
   Oh, wait. That's pretty much the way almost every bone of contention has been created recently. I suppose we all know what it is telling us.

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      Misfit Chickposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      "...by attempting to pretend that the Republican party is somehow responsible for something that doesn't exist tells us what?"
      
      'attempting to pretend' - you're kidding, right? Where the heck have you been for the past several potus election cycles? Abortion is one of the GOP's favorite talking points that they use to manipulate their base - by insisting that they are going to put an end to 'murdering babies'. They do it to intentionally wring the hearts of good, well-intentioned Christians who are CRUSHED by the thought to begin with.
      
      Really. Where HAVE you been? Perhaps this was your first time voting?
      
      Reagan was the first potus I was able to vote for. And as 'extreme' Christian conservatives - my family and I voted for him, pretty much for that one reason. A LOT of Christian extremists will ONLY vote Republican for that one reason. It is the reason why so many conservatives voted for Trump when they didn't really want to.
      
      Denial is what keeps abortions high - along with all the things I included in my post just previous to this one. It doesn't matter how 'on par' we are to any other country. This is America, and MOST of us know that fewer abortions ARE a real possibility. It matters. Not just because of the babies, but MORESO because of the mammas who ARE just as important.
      
      This is an end splash to my blog post about this topic. Its worth repeating here:
      http://misfitchick.blogspot.com/2016/02 … tions.html
      
      "I really would have thought women especially would be able to SEE what has been happening to each other within their religions. I do NOT mean to exclude men. I just think that if WOMEN are this disconnected from their own surviving offspring; men probably don't have much of a chance to 'get it'.
      
      Women of religions - not just Christianity - are often bigger contributors and condoners of misogyny than men are without realizing it. We get shrill about our kids, and for good reason. Many of us are simply built to care so deeply; that we CAN'T see the forest for all the trees...
      
      Discover the truth for yourself. Questionnaire for Christian Churches and Congregations of Faith: How Well Do You Know Your People?" http://hub.me/ak9PR
      
      

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         Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         Apples and oranges Misfit. Talking points and trends are not the same thing. They talk about wanting to stop abortion. That is not the same as causing abortion rates to be higher. Which they aren't .
         
         I'm pro choice. I'm not going to grasp onto false information in order to falsely claim to have information which supports my views.
         
         Notice my ability to share my view without pasting a bunch of posters into my comment. You should try it.

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            Misfit Chickposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            I realize that 'posters' make things very difficult for some of you. If I only posted them for you, things would be different. You really shouldn't worry about it so much. You are not the only one reading in here.
            
            "They talk about wanting to stop abortion. That is not the same as causing abortion rates to be higher. Which they aren't."
            
            Ignorance is bliss. It comes from not actually doing the research; and assuming your opinion is correct. It comes from not actually reading the posts I've left; and not being able to think outside the box.
            
            Try processing this information without thinking about how much you dislike me - or don't respond at all, LtL.
            
            

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               Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this

               Misfit, the statistics I've seen on reputable sites do not support this lame attempt to make it a left or right problem. But, since my observation has been that those who love the blame game have a distaste for verifiable fact I can see why one might use posters as some type of argument of authority.  Here's something for you to read, since you gave me your statistics from, I don't know where.
               
               https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/aborti … ighest/19/

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               1. 76

                  Misfit Chickposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  If you had actually read the links I have included within these posts (I know, HARD) - you would have found the origin for that graphic (and you would actually have an idea of what I am talking about).
                  
                  Since you don't read it, and you can't figure it out for yourself - you are just one of many millions of reasons why nothing ever changes surrounding abortion. You are also a damn good reason why the GOP doesn't have to change their tune about it; and they can continue to use this subject to manipulate the extremists among their base.
                  
                  No really, do you know why I include graphics? For people who don't like to read - at least they get the jist of what is being said; and maybe that will compel them to actually read. Too bad it doesn't work for you, LoL! These images explain everything in a nutshell.
                  
                  
                  
                  

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                     Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                     Misfit, as difficult as it is for some to grasp you linking to your blog or other threads on Hub Pages as backing up an opinion with anything other than opinion is little more than giving an opinion based on nothing other than your belief.
                     
                     As to your blurb and your posters attached to the last comment. You give nothing to back up a little blurb somehow accusing religion of being responsible for abortion followed by a poster with women sharing their opinion and ending with a comment by an actress. My response to that is a big ?????. Are you implying that your opinion, coupled with an anonymous one, followed with an opinion from an actress and ending with some women holding up signs saying they regret their abortions (I'll admit I'm confused on the last. Was that a pro or anti choice protest) is somehow going to convince anyone of anything other than we all have opinions?
                     
                     I know a young girl who was an atheist and refused to have an abortion because of her sudden insistence on religious principles, which have been seemingly absent since that decision was made; although she has ensured the child was included in religious groups and activities during its lifetime.  So what does that say? Is she an atheist or a religious adherent? Was not having an abortion due to religion? Should I ascertain that religion was responsible for avoiding an abortion? I don't. So, I'm afraid I can't consider religion as the reason for an abortion, either. Without looking at the individual cases and speaking to the women who had them. Since I believe in a woman's right to make her own decisions for her own body my opinion would be a moot point. But, neither can I blame the belief on another for the action of any individual woman. Unless, the absence of choice were a factor. It is not.
                     
                     And continually adding pictures which appear to be attempts to convince me of something I already know seems pointless, at best. At worst, indicative of the fact that you have no idea what anyone else thinks and aren't willing to put the effort into reading their comments to figure it out.
                     
                     But, since absolutely nothing you have written appears to legitimately support the original claim that was made in the OP I am left to gather that you have no support for it and are simply following in its footsteps of not understanding that a false claim is not the same as a fact.
                     
                     I'll repeat. I AM PRO CHOICE. I am not pro head in the sand ignorance with roots in a desire to believe what one wants to believe, whatever the cost; leaving truth at the wayside.

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                  My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  LtL, I offer this little snippet from your source, and it isn't out of context, "Still, abortion rates vary greatly across the world - and in some cases are higher in countries where abortion is illegal."

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                     Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                     I have no problem with that. Although, if illegal, I wonder how accurate any statistics might be. I doubt the doctors are reporting or the women.
                     
                     I still do not understand how anyone would think the abortion rate were high because of either political party. I have my own ideas as to what causes the high abortion rate but political parties and religion do not factor into that idea.

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            My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Unfortunately, this forum isn't about "That is not the same as causing abortion rates to be higher. ", it is preventing them from being lower.

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               Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this

               And, I have not seen anyone give any fact which would lead me to believe Republicans are prohibiting them from being lower.
               
               Just remember, opinion is not fact.

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         wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         "Denial is what keeps abortions high "
         
         I seem to be missing something.  Denial of what is keeping abortion rates high?  Denial that (supposedly) European rates are lower?  Denial that abortion is wrong somehow?  What is being denied, where that denial is causal to abortion rates being high?

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            Misfit Chickposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            You might try actually reading my posts. They explain a lot... Denial by Conservatives (Christian extremists, mostly) regarding their part in perpetuating & compounding the issue of abortion - which is what this discussion is about.

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            1. 94

               wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

               Conservatives deny they have a part in perpetuating the issue of abortion.  This is probably true, although the exact same could be said of the left.  If either side quit fighting the other, the "issue" would die.
               
               But how that denial of their part in fighting to end abortion causes more abortions is what isn't making sense.  That half the country wants it illegal doesn't seem to have any causal effect on whether a person gets an abortion - I'm sure no one thinks to themselves "Hey, conservatives fight abortion rights, so I'll go get the abortion that I wouldn't have if they didn't fight it".  That's what the OP said, too, but frankly it makes no sense at all.

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                  Misfit Chickposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Of course you don't understand. Like I've said, you have to actually read.

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                     wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                     In other words you can't supply a causal connection between the two, either. 
                     
                     But why make such a silly claim, then?  Just because you trust no one else can figure out the fallacy either?

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                  My Esotericposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Wilderness, this quote from you is only half correct, isn't it? If either side quit fighting the other, the "issue" would die."
                  
                  Where you're wrong is if the Left quits, then the Right will be successful in making most or all abortions illegal; not a great outcome for sure.
                  
                  Where you are right, if the Right quits, then the Left will quit as well because a woman's right to choose is left intact.

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                     wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                     But of course; if one side quits the other side controls all.  That is implicit in the statement, but then the statement that the issue dies does not concern itself with which side "wins" the battle; only that the issue dies.
                     
                     Which it will.  Whether you, I or anyone else thinks the outcome is great or not is irrelevant to the matter of the issue dying out. 
                     
                     You're letting your own prejudice interfere with the question - after all, if the left wins and a woman has the right to murder children, that's not a great outcome for sure!  Just ask anyone on the far right.

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                     MizBejabbersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                     These last few points really prove that it's a stupid argument. When abortions were not legally sanctioned, if a woman had enough money or if her life or health were involved, she could get a abortion from a general practitioner because the government was not looking over his shoulder. I knew a family member (married) who had an abortion in 1944 because she had a very difficult pregnancy in 1943, and her obstetrician said it would be dangerous for her to have another baby so soon thereafter. He aborted the baby, and none was the wiser at the time. She never spoke of it, but the family did. It seems to have been lack of funds or lack of understanding medical practitioners who drove women to back alley abortionists in some rural areas. Rumor has it that many an Ozark farm woman had a mysterious miscarriage when it was known that the family could not feed and take care of another child. (I'm so sorry, Mr. Jones, your wife lost the baby.)
                     
                     Society frowned upon illegitimate children and their mothers so severely in the 1940s and 50s that only the most determined women had unwed pregnancies if the father couldn't or wouldn't marry her. A woman was "ruined" and unfit for marriage if she produced a child before marriage. Not so for the father. He could go to his Saturday night bar and brag about his potency. The government also did not make him support his ill-produced children either, so in many cases it was a struggle for an undereducated woman to support her child or children. It was easier on the woman to obtain an abortion, either back alley, from an herbalist, or from a sympathetic midwife than to have the baby and ruin two lives. With the sexual revolution of the 1960s, illegitimate children no longer suffered as much stigma of bastardy, and their mothers could more easily keep and support them, so perhaps we need to do some research on the illegitimate birth rate v abortions after Roe v Wade. The question is "when society gave women an actual choice, did the illegitimate birth rate go up as the abortion rate went down?"

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                        gmwilliamsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                        Totally agree. +1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000!!!

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