Fraud Committed During 2020 Election Will Be Uncovered
I said it before and I'll say it again. The intense fraud committed by the Democrats during the 2020 election will be revealed This isn't going away. It's too late to change the outcomes of the election, but it is a good time to reveal the total and complete disregard for the rule of law by the Democrats when it comes to the election process. I've seen Democrats cheat during elections, but in 2020, they took it to an entirely new level. If the Democrats have nothing to hide, they would welcome the recounts as a way to prove their honesty. Well, that is just not going to happen with Democrats.
"Inspired by Arizona recount, Trump loyalists push to revisit election results in communities around the country
At a public meeting last week in Cheboygan County, Mich., a lawyer from Detroit told county commissioners that the voting machines they used in 2020 could “flip” votes and throw an election. She offered to send in a “forensic team,” at no charge to the county, to inspect ballots and scanners.
In Windham, N.H., supporters of former president Donald Trump showed up to a town meeting this month chanting “Stop the Steal!” and demanding that officials choose their preferred auditor to scrutinize a 400-vote discrepancy in a state representative race.
And at a board of supervisors meeting May 4 in San Luis Obispo County, on California’s Central Coast, scores of residents questioned whether election machines had properly counted their votes, with many demanding a “forensic audit.”
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics … uxbndlbingWhere is your evidence?
The whole Republican Party has gone loony tunes.
In Arizona, the votes were recounted twice by Republicans and when they didn't find any fraud, they hired a cuckoo firm to find the fraud.
Now they're looking for bamboo ballots with UV light with people who have absolutely no experience in vote counting, hiring people off the street wearing Trump hats. What result do we expect them to find?
And now in Georgia, where Republican officials recounted votes multiple times, they want to bring in companies who promote conspiracy theories to recount the votes.
I mean, how completely insane do you have to be to believe in any of this.
Trump sent out his own lawyer, Sidney Powell, to promote this whole voter fraud theory. She claimed over and over that there was fraud, that voting machines changed votes. And when she was challenged on this in court, what did she say?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sidney-pow … ter-fraud/
"No reasonable person" would believe her.
Clearly, if you believe her story, you're not reasonable. Trump's own lawyer is telling you this. Never have there been a more gullible group of people. While there's no evidence of fraud, there seems to be overwhelming evidence this was all made up."Now they're looking for bamboo ballots with UV light with people who have absolutely no experience in vote counting, hiring people off the street wearing Trump hats. What result do we expect them to find?
And now in Georgia, where Republican officials recounted votes multiple times, they want to bring in companies who promote conspiracy theories to recount the votes."
Sure is easy to make accusations, it's another to be able to provide proof of them.The proof has already been provided that Cyberninjas is a crackpot organization.
The more I think about this, the more hilarious it becomes. Here's a list of things Republicans don't believe, generally:
They don't believe that masks effectively stop the spread of COVID
They don't believe in taking a vaccine to stop COVID
They don't believe climate change is real
They don't believe that Sandy Hook was real
They don't believe smoking causes cancer
They DO believe that there's a sex-trafficking ring under a D.C. pizzeria
They believe that Jan. 6 was a calm, tourist visit
They believe that hydroxychloroquine stops COVID
and...
They believe that there was massive fraud in the 2020 election
It sure seems to me that Republicans have an exceptionally hard time understanding much of anything, even when Trump's own lawyer is telling them they're stupid for believing it.
Kind of crazy."They don't believe that masks effectively stop the spread of COVID
They don't believe in taking a vaccine to stop COVID
They don't believe climate change is real
They don't believe that Sandy Hook was real
They don't believe smoking causes cancer
They DO believe that there's a sex-trafficking ring under a D.C. pizzeria
They believe that Jan. 6 was a calm, tourist visit
They believe that hydroxychloroquine stops COVID"
Excellent example of the straw man argument. This is text book.Not really. Republicans keep demonstrating over and over again that they don't understand basic facts or understand basic data.
You mean like border walls slow illegal border crossings? Like there is, and was in 2020, fraud in elections? Like we need to investigate the origins of the COVID virus? Like the rest of the world treats us like nothing more than a pocketbook? Like disarming law abiding citizens will stop the death toll from violence? Like supporting people with lifetime charity will stop poverty?
Democrats are no better than Republicans; the vast majority of people believe what they want to believe, and are incredibly resistant to facts and data.
I'm actually starting to come around on voter ID. Why the hell not? An official U.S. government issued ID to prove that you are eligible to vote. Sounds fine.
And what will happen is that Republicans will start claiming the IDs are fraudulent and prevent people they don't like who have the IDs from voting.If you can accept voter ID you will never make a good Democrat...
I can totally accept it, but Republicans will just claim the voter IDs are fraudulent when they lose.
Things are now looking up in Arizona now that the Maricopa County audit results were released on September 24, 2021. It's only a matter of what the Arizona Attorney General decides that determines whether Donald Trump really won that state or Joe Biden did. I get the intuition that something will definitely result from it.
Let it be. And let it serves as a pointer or reference.
Mike, the question you have raised is important. But the point is where do we go from here? we all know that fraud took place in the election but the Supreme Court has already given a verdict and no way the result can be set aside. So where do we go from here? What will be the result of this exercise? Presently it is a futile exercise but in the time to come people will be able to draw lessons from this.
No, the Supreme Court has not given a verdict. They refused to hear the case.
The point is not to change the results of the election. That is impossible.
Where we go from here is to identify the fraud, expose it for all American citizens to see and put safe guards in place to prevent it from happening again. When the massive fraud is exposed, Democrats will be in a very weakened position to try it again. The United States can only benefit from exposing this fraud. It will make future elections much more honest. This is the reason it must be done.There is no need to investigate for fraud as there is nothing to identify. Thus speaks the DNC, insisting that because there was no fraud there is no need to investigate.
Coupled with a strong push to remove safeguards against fraud, the reasoning for such a statement is quite interesting and the only real conclusion that can be drawn from it is that there was fraud, by Democrats, and they do not wish it identified.I would go a step further and say there has been election fraud Democrats have gotten away with for years. They just never did anything on this scale and with such disastrous results.
You keep repeating the lie. Where's your proof?
I have actual proof from the actual person perpetrating the actual lie that she was lying.If there is no fraud, a recount should be welcomed as this will prove there was no fraud. Unless, there is fear associated with what can be discovered. Can't have it both ways. Fightening this makes Democrats appears as if they are hiding something. So, what is it? If it's nothing, recounts and forensic examination of the voting machines should be welcomed.
I have no confidence in Trump sycophants running the recounts or examining evidence. I have to have doubts about your desire to cease beating a dead horse even after the GOP henchmen determine that there is no evidence of fraud, you just plain lost. That is not usual in such contests.
They've already recounted in these places. In both Arizona and Georgia, under the supervision of Republican officials, they did multiple recounts. And found nothing.
But sure, let's have a company who promoted conspiracy theories with no experience doing voting recounts, who's hired as many people in MAGA hats as it can find, to do the recounts. Sounds fair.
Once again: where's your proof? Where's your evidence?
Once again, my proof is that Sidney Powell said in court she was lying and that people who believe her are unreasonable.
Guess what that makes you? Who was Sidney Powell working for? The truth is clearly right in front of you and it's coming from the very people who convinced you of the fraud.There were several irregularities in the recounts that occurred in Georgia and Arizona. Sidney Powell was doing what she had to do to avoid a billion dollar lawsuit and democrat judges who were after her. What she said doesn't matter.
If you believe there was no fraud, you should favor the recounts. If you believe there was fraud, you will fear the recounts.
So far, Democrats fear the recounts. I wonder why Democrats are so sure there was fraud.
"FINALLY: Courts Are Recognizing Irregularities in the 2020 Election
"In Michigan, the State Court of Claims has concluded that the instructions on signature verification for absentee ballots given by Democratic Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson violated state law regarding absentee ballots."
Nearby, in Wisconsin, the state’s Supreme Court handed down a December ruling in which the justices concluded that officials had erred in giving blanket permission to voters to skip voter ID requirements in the 2020 elections by declaring themselves homebound.
According to the Wisconsin Supreme Court, only certain voters, those who were confined to home because of old age, infirmity, or the like, could use the “indefinitely confined” loophole and avoid the voter ID requirements and that the existence of Covid was not enough of a justification to use that loophole. The court also ruled that Gov. Evers did not have the legal authority to, with his Executive Order #12, exempt voters from the voter ID requirement and enable them to get an absentee ballot without proof of identity. As context, 200,000 voters took up Evers on his sketchy loophole in a state where the margin of victory was just 20,000 votes."
https://genzconservative.com/irregulari … -election/
There are several other states, including Pennsylvania, who are initiating petition drives to have recounts conducted in their state.
This is NOT going to go away.They recounted multiple times in all these places. How many recounts are necessary to satisfy you?
And you're really going to crow about fraud when Cyberninjas finds it? Really? These bamboo ballot, Cheeto ballot crazy people who said, like Trump, before they even started counting, that they were going to find fraud?
That's the proof you're looking for?
And of course Sidney Powell's statements matter. She said she was lying on behalf of Trump. She basically said you're a sucker.
There have been issues being exposed for many years.
https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/PCWor … id=4630624
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/28/us/28vote.html
https://securityledger.com/2019/12/stud … g-machine/
https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/fro … -concerns/
The only things they have done, is open up states to even more bizarre ways of voting and continued acceptance of ballots long after the election should have been over (hello PA).
For the most part, all the "problems" that existed with securing votes 20 years ago, still do today.
And there is a reason for that.
Fraud?
A time worn excuse for the fact that Trump lost. Trumpers are playing the part of Captain Ahab.
You can blame me and mine as our overwhelming numbers stopped the Trump juggernaut in its tracks.
Republicans are going to attempt to intimidate us and our electorate by legislating voter suppression policy but all this will do will strengthen our resolve to get to the polls each time and every time, and in large numbers, without fail.
According to your people, everyone should not have the right to vote?
https://ktar.com/story/4151027/republic … be-voting/
We will have to stomp that idea and the people that promote it flat.You are correct; everyone should not have the right to vote.
Dead people should not vote. Non citizens should not vote. People under 18 years of age should not vote. Some states won't let prisoners vote.
You go ahead and stomp for all you're worth on those things.
So the complete lack of evidence of voter fraud and the complete lack of evidence of vote tampering is now seen as "proof" of voter fraud and vote tampering.
Republican run states like Georgia and Arizona did multiple recounts and audits which certified their results confirming that Biden did, in fact, legitimately win the election.
But now, Trump supporters claim that Democrats magically changed the vote totals in these Republican run states. They claim all those recounts and audits somehow missed the millions of illegal votes and the massive voter fraud that swept Biden into office.
This is right wing mythology from delusional (and gullible) Trump supporters.
Go ahead in investigate all you like. Biden won by seven million votes despite the unprecedented voter suppression by Republicans and you can never change that fact.Then all the recounts should be welcomed because they will only prove the Republicans to be wrong. BUT...Democrats fear forensic audits of the voting machines...they battle against audits. If there is nothing to hide...it shouldn't be a problem. So...it is a movement that is moving through the country. The truth will be revealed.
What voter suppression? Proof?Republicans have already recounted multiple times. How many recounts do you need exactly before you will renounce your baseless claims?
Is Cyber Ninjas going to prove voter fraud? Is there really any way you will believe it when Cyber Ninjas says they found fraud? Will that serve as your proof?
All the evidence demonstrates that you're being manipulated by a consummate, unstoppable liar. Even his own lawyers say so.This is JUST the state of Georgia
"Georgia Recount Plagued by Anomalies, According to Sworn Affidavits
Affidavits describe material problems with recount, “impeccable” ballots with “perfect black bubbles” for Biden, suspicions of fraud
A recount of ballots in Georgia intended to determine the outcome of the 2020 Presidential election has come under scrutiny as multiple poll observers in sworn affidavits describe significant anomalies in the recount.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/georgia-r … 85250.html
That's what's been happening in California. We've recalled two democrat governors. It makes you wonder.
So far recounts are happening in Arizona, forensic audits of voting machines are happening in New Hampshire and Wisconsin. Proposals to have a forensic audits in Michigan are underway. Petitions for recounts are underway in Pennsylvania and Virginia. There is STILL blatant problems with the voting machines. They happened recently during an election in Pennsylvania.
“Mostly Republican Ballots Fail to Scan in Pennsylvania County Election, Stoking Concerns
A number of ballots couldn’t be scanned during local elections this week in a southwestern county in Pennsylvania, triggering fresh concerns about election integrity.
The ballots, mostly from Republican voters in Fayette County, were missing bar codes that typically help facilitate electronic scanning.
George Rattay, chairman of the Fayette County Democratic Party, was present when the issues began around 7 p.m. on May 18. He said nobody initially knew what the problem was. He and others went to the county Bureau of Elections and found out it was a bar code issue.
“The majority of them were Republican ballots,” he told The Epoch Times.”
https://www.theepochtimes.com/mkt_morni … N7x20rLWVgAre you seriously going to accept the fiasco of the Arizona recount, which objective observers with experience counting have said is an utter embarrassment?
crankalicious: Thank you. You said all the things I've grown tired of saying - especially to people who have no interest in listening - much less learning.
Now a recount is approved in Georgia. I said it right after the election. The desire to discover the fraud that was committed during the presidential election will NOT go away.
"Breaking: Georgia Judge Approves Absentee Ballot Audit for 2020 Election in Fulton County
A Georgia judge ruled Friday that 145,000 absentee ballots submitted in Fulton County in November’s general election can be unsealed.
“Henry County Superior Court Judge Brian Amero made clear the ballots must remain in the custody of Fulton election officials,” The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported.
“The details and timing of the review must still be determined. But the plaintiffs in a lawsuit against the county want to scan and examine the ballots to determine whether they are legitimate,” the outlet added."
https://www.westernjournal.com/breaking … TLYwJbQSwoI am glad to see that there will be another count. I would think or hope this will help clarify all the questions around the night the counters, and poll watchers were told to go home as a handful ended up staying and continuing to count. I must say this event never made much sense to me.
The next big question will be the spin that will woven when irregularities are uncovered. The deeper it goes the more pressure is being put on those who are doing the recounts to stop. Again, the Democrats are afraid and I think with good reason. The truth terrifies Democrats.
"Arizona's top election official details 'a constant barrage of harassment' during unprecedented GOP-backed ballot recounting
On Thursday, Arizona's Secretary of State Katie Hobbs tweeted that she had received a threatening call to her office from someone who said they wanted her dead. The next day, on Friday, 12 News/KPNX reported that Gov. Doug Ducey had deployed 24/7 state trooper protection for Hobbs, the second instance she's received official protection since November."
https://www.businessinsider.in/politics … 471862.cmsI can not even imagine what turmoil would result if widespread fraud is discovered, with threats already flying. I am sure it would result in other state legislators demanding recounts.
And I would think many new lawsuits being filed. It would seem the Dems are very freaked out about these recounts. If there is no fraud it would seem they would not care one way or the other.
Many citizens believe that the election was fraudulent. I think recounts are necessary. I also feel that the GOP made a good decision in choosing to use private agencies to do the recount. I would feel there is no room for the Dems to complain about foul play. But one could predict safely they will be outraged if the recount does not go their way.Most are rightwingers that believe the election was fraudulent and that only because their candidate lost.
"Private agencies" that are completely non-affiliated. Was that really the case in Arizona?
You are all engaged in the smoke and mirrors game looking for improbable excuses to explain why the GOP had lost ground last fall and in their current state will lose even more in the coming years.I don't think I am engaged in smoke and mirrors. I made no prediction on any outcome of these recounts. There are many that don't feel the election was on the up and up.
Are you saying you don't think the agency that is doing the recount will be honest? I am assuming they will. I would hope they will need to prove anything they come up with if it's different than the other counts that were done.
I think it smart to do the recount to settle the controversy once and for all. So many Americans feel there was widespread fraud.
Myself, I accepted the election. But did feel it was important to proceed with recounts due to all the visible irregularities that occurred at the polls.Seven million votes, that is a lot of votes. It is going to be more than a Herculean task to prove that so great a difference is not legitimate.
There is no need to make up seven million votes. We live in a representative republic. Biden won by the narrowest of margins in Arizona, Georgia and Wisconsin. If it can be proven the thousands of those votes in those states are fraudulent, then the electoral college votes should have gone to President Donald Trump, it can be proven he should have won the election.
We need to get to the bottom of the early morning data dumps in four key battleground states. It is more than a statistical anomaly, it is clear evidence of fraud. The Democrats are trying so hard to protect their fraud that it's painfully obvious with their actions about the recounts.
"Four Data Dumps in the Witching Hour After the Election Gave Biden Victory. Rand Paul Has Questions"
"Interesting . . . Trump margin of “defeat” in 4 states occurred in 4 data dumps between 1:34-6:31 AM. Statistical anomaly? Fraud? Look at the evidence and decide for yourself.(That is, if Big Tech allows u to read this)"
https://americantruthtoday.com/politics … questions/The very same close margins that Trump won by in 2016, and still lost the popular vote.
Good luck proving fraud this time around, you are going to have quite row to hoe.....
What appalls me about you folks is that it does not matter to you if Trump wins with a stark minority of the vote, he is just entitled to win regardless of the circumstances. All 5 states in contention are going to have to flip, is that not true? About the same chance as my being struck by a "falling star".
This"republic" idea is just another excuse for minority rule, and we are going to start to take issue with it.The idea of a Representative Republic is about the sins of the majority and how that has ruined countries in the past. It is a concept that goes back to the days of Rome and Greece. The tyranny of the majority is a concept that has been around for thousands of years.
"The tyranny of the majority (or tyranny of the masses) is an inherent weakness to majority rule in which the majority of an electorate pursues exclusively its own objectives at the expense of those of the minority factions. This results in oppression of minority groups comparable to that of a tyrant or despot, argued John Stuart Mill in his 1859 book On Liberty.[1]
The scenarios in which tyranny perception occurs are very specific, involving a sort of distortion of democracy preconditions:
Centralization excess: when the centralized power of a federation make a decision that should be local, breaking with the commitment to the subsidiarity principle.[2] Typical solutions, in this condition, are concurrent majority and supermajority rules.
Abandonment of rationality: when, as Tocqueville remembered, a decision "which bases its claim to rule upon numbers, not upon rightness or excellence".[3] The use of public consultation, technical consulting bodies, and other similar mechanisms help to improve rationality of decisions before voting on them. Judicial review (e.g. declaration of nullity of the decision) is the typical way after the vote.
In both cases, in a context of a nation, constitutional limits on the powers of a legislative body, and the introduction of a Bill of Rights have been used to counter the problem.[4] A separation of powers (for example a legislative and executive majority actions subject to review by the judiciary) may also be implemented to prevent the problem from happening internally in a government.[4]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majorityOk, Ken, i can't really dispute your general point, the Bill of Rights and subsequent Constitutional Amendments have protected me and mine from an unreasonable and tyrannical majority depriving me and mine of Constitutional rights that should belong to every American with impunity.
Centralization excess: translated as "States Rights" allowing certain states to deprive certain citizens of their Constitutional Rights that out of necessity had to be protected by the federal government. State authority has to be subordinated in such cases and they were.
Abandonment of Rationality: whose idea of "rightness or excellence"? There is no evidence that a rule by the minority would be any less tyrannical particularely in today's world of GOP politics.
I stand for the Constitutional protections for minority and dissenting opinion.
But, the idea of one man one vote is better than a handful of people ruling over the majority merely because they believe they are smarter than everybody else.One person one vote would cause us to be ruled by the population centers like New York and California. These are two of the most screwed state governments in the United States. Blue states don't perform as well as red states in many categories.
When it comes to the economy, the red states as a whole, have a long history of outperforming the blue states.
"States run by Republican governors on average have economically outperformed states run by Democratic governors in recent months.
The difference in economic growth is likely due to the pathway of the coronavirus pandemic in the first few months and the economic restrictions imposed by Democratic governors.
Overall, Democratic-run states, particularly those in the Northeast and Midwest, had larger contractions in gross domestic product than Republican-run states in the Plains and the South, according to the latest state GDP data for the second quarter of 2020, released by the Commerce Department on Friday. Of the 20 states with the smallest decrease in state GDP, 13 were run by Republican governors, while the bottom 25 states with the highest decrease in state GDP were predominantly Democratic-run states."
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news … onomically
Red states outperformed the blue states when it comes to handling the Corona virus and more.And yet, that's why we elect people to run the country. Because they know and understand it's needs better than we do and because we don't choose to spend a lifetime of effort understanding those needs.
Unfortunately that concept of legislators that work together to find the best solutions, that DO understand the needs, and that put the country first is long gone. Today the needs of the party and the specific politician trump the needs of the country. Today no legislator studies the problems/needs and indeed are not given time to study exceedingly complex bills (vote it in and then read it, stupid!). And today virtually every vote is simply along party lines rather than being carefully considered as to what is best for the country.
Readmikenow? Reverend Al Sharpton once made a point about his concern over the tyranny of the majority when he was debating a political topic on television, and he's a Democrat. I guess that that goes to show you that facts are facts regardless of one's party affiliation.
Biden actually won by the narrowest of margins in Arizona, ( 10,457) Georgia ( 12,670), and Wisconsin ( 20,682). --- 44,000 votes in Georgia, Arizona, and Wisconsin separated Biden and Trump from a tie in the Electoral College.". Last I checked we were still using the electoral college to a point the winner.
Many American citizens do believe fraud occurred and want to see recounts. And many more like me might feel there were many unexplainable irregularities that were reported, and the accusations need to be explored. As well as the problem in Georga with poll watchers and counters told to go home due to a plumbing problem, yet many stayed and continued to count unobserved. This was a very blatant irregularity.
There were over 250 affidavits turned over by poll workers with complaints of irregularities. I think it just better to recount than have any doubts.
It certainly is needed to ascertain if there was widespread fraud. I for one do not want to see a repeat of the last election. So, if fraud occurred it's time to tighten up voter laws. As Georga has already done.
Very curious to know --- Just what if widespread fraud is proven, how would you feel about it? Will you be willing to give your party a break if they cheated in a presidential election? Think about it. Recounts should really not concern anyone, especially if you feel fraud was not committed.I can't stand Trump and the Republicans, but regardless, fair is fair. If it is determined that fraud did in fact take place, to an extent to justify declaring Trump the winner, I have to accept it, but it damn well, better be good. The GOP evidence and the proof had better be irrefutable upon analysis for obvious reasons.
I am not predicting the amount of fraud, and I am not sure what would happen if it could be proved, Trump won the election. I am just agreeing that we need to address the concern of American citizens that do believe in fraud occurred. I think a recount by a private agency could clarify the count once and for all. I don't feel it will hurt or should hurt anyone to proceed with the recounts. I agree if there is proof of fraud it had better be very clear with facts backing it up. Otherwise, this dispute will go on and on.
I must say --- "Roma is burning " and the media is working hard that we don't see the flames and smell the smoke... Biden is pretending all is well, while the country is failing on many counts.Cred,
It doesn't matter if it is proven that President Donald Trump should have won the election. The elections have been certified and the electoral college has voted. So, Biden is going to be president no matter what happens with the recounts. I think the fraud needs to be exposed and safeguard need to be put in place to prevent it from happening again. It more about protecting the integrity of the electoral process.
I observe the Cobb County Board of Elections for the League of Women Voters in Georgia. Y'all are going to have a long wait for fraud to be found anywhere in Georgia. Gov. Kemp is no longer secretary of state and can't swing elections in his own favor. The voters voices were heard this time and hopefully will be again when he is up for re-election. If Cobb County, the home of Newt Gingrich and the John Birch Society, can vote Democrat in two back to back presidential elections, I promise you, every effort at fraud failed.
Trump lost by 7 million votes and will not let anybody move on. Secretary Clinton won by 3 million votes and conceded the same night. Just sayin'.
Gee, audits of voting machines in New Hampshire for a recent election are finding only a percentage of Republican votes were counted.
'New Hampshire Audit Identifies Damning Problem; Scan Counts Only 28% of Test Ballots for GOP Candidates
Auditors said their explanation fits the outcome.
“Because if someone voted for all four Republican candidates and the ballot happened to have its fold line going through St. Laurent’s target, then that might be interpreted by the machines as an overvote, which would then subtract votes from each of those four Republican candidates,” said auditor Philip Stark, according to WMUR.
https://www.westernjournal.com/new-hamp … p0UyDpUFmgThe truth about the election fraud committed by the Democrats is slowly coming out.
There is now strong evidence that mail in votes that were counted were actually xeroxed copies.
"When Fulton County, Ga., poll manager Suzi Voyles sorted through a large stack of mail-in ballots last November, she noticed an alarmingly odd pattern of uniformity in the markings for Joseph R. Biden. One after another, the absentee votes contained perfectly filled-in ovals for Biden — except that each of the darkened bubbles featured an identical white void inside them in the shape of a tiny crescent, indicating they'd been marked with toner ink instead of a pen or pencil.
Adding to suspicions, she noticed that all of the ballots were printed on different stock paper than the others she handled as part of a statewide hand recount of the razor-thin Nov. 3 presidential election. And none was folded or creased, as she typically observed in mail-in ballots that had been removed from envelopes.
In short, the Biden votes looked like they’d been duplicated by a copying machine.
“All of them were strangely pristine," said Voyles, who said she’d never seen anything like it in her 20 years monitoring elections in Fulton County, which includes much of Atlanta.
She wasn’t alone. At least three other poll workers observed the same thing in stacks of absentee ballots for Biden processed by the county, and they have joined Voyles in swearing under penalty of perjury that they looked fake."
https://www.realclearinvestigations.com … 79795.htmlif Biden legitimately won, how could that be? The people actually chose this guy?
Really?
I would say due to the influence of the internet.It's much more than that. Biden still a corporate puppet!
It may take time, but all of the fraud committed by the Democrats in the 2020 election will eventually be revealed. They are making it as difficult as possible and are fighting it every step of the way. They do not want their lies and deception revealed. If I had done what they had done, I probably would not want that either. My frustration is that I believe nobody will be held accountable for the fraud once it is discovered.
Mike you have to let this go, nothing is going to change what is, nothing is going to change the voting system, other than to make it worse in the future.
I know I extrapolated this answer earlier in this thread, weeks ago, so I'll leave it at that.This can't be stopped and must proceed until the truth is revealed.
Will is change the results? NO
Will is paint a picture of what the Democrats are capable of doing during an election? Yes
Can it be stopped in the future? Every effort must be made to stop it in the future.
Trust me when I tell you, recount efforts will continue. It has more support around the country than I think you realize.I agree with you Mike. There were extenuating circumstances (a global pandemic) which provided for temporary changes in the way we typically go about voting. These temporary changes provided ample opportunity for cheating to take place. But, that's what they were..."temporary changes" and now we go back to/get back into, pre-pandemic mode. Most people (not working against us) do realize and understand this. We certainly do not, "let it go" and accept it as just the way it is and shall be, going forward.
Yes, they were to be temporary. However, the HR1 bill if passed will continue these policies as well as some new policies that invite fraud. I have faith the Senate will stand its ground, and can this bill.
Noted that you've said something along the line prior to this. But the thing is that it's normal for fruadsters to fight against exposing they bad deeds. I don't know, and I'm still wondering if the courts made a mistake in refusing to hear Trump initially. Whatsoever the outcome of the exposition, democracy should be protect.
I had thought that because Joe Biden decided not to run for president in 2016, he was never going to run for president again. I wish that he hadn't run for president in 2020. I'd be sad if Trump had lost this election in that event; but even if we had gotten some other Democrat in the Oval Office, nobody could have been as bad as Joe Biden.
The recount of the Arizona ballots will be complete at the end of June.
There is one problem, 20 percent of the ballots are missing.
Could Arizona's election results be decertified?
"Christina Bobb reported on OANN that she expects to see “that the count is not even close to what was certified” due to the fact that some pallets are missing up to 20% of the ballots that should be there."
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/0 … eft-count/NOT MAKING HEADLINES: AZ Audit Could Not Find the Identity of 86,391 Voters – They Don’t Appear to Exist and 73.8% Are Democrat or No Party Affiliation
These Maricopa voters cast ballots in Nov 2020 and don’t seem to exist. The ones registered as Democrat or selected no party affiliation represent a whopping 73.8% of these unknown voters. That’s 63,757 ballots. Not selecting a party makes monitoring of nefarious registrations much harder as everything not R or D is bulked together as “Other”. Even the new State voter registration form now only has only 3 categories (R, D, Other) and some registration reporting reduced to similar.
Arizona’s Prop 200 was passed in 2004. To register to vote, citizens were now required to provide proof of U.S. citizenship and identity. Arizona changed its State registration form to accommodate the new law. Democrats resisted and started using the Federal Voter Registration Form, which doesn’t require proof of U.S. citizenship. In 2013 the U.S. Supreme Court ruled 7-2 that AZ must accept this Federal Form. However, those voters would only receive ballots that list Federal candidates – President and Congress. These are classified as “Federal Only” voters in AZ. It’s bullshit. Democrats exclusively use the Fed Form in AZ to bypass citizenship and other ID issues.
After the 2018 election the Maricopa Board of Supervisors realized they had serious problems with elections and corruption. Their investigators found that all elections staff answered to County Recorder Fontes and the Board had no insight into elections. So in June of 2019 the Board added a second “Director of Elections” role. One Director now answers to the Supervisor Board, the other to the County Recorder. Fontes provided no resistance to the changes because he retained unaccountable control of VRAS, the voter registration system for Maricopa. These are the keys to the kingdom. Fontes then coordinated with Democrat SOS Katie Hobbs to process those boxes of non-citizen applications and get them into the AZ voter rolls.
From the 2018 midterm election to the Nov. 2020 election, Maricopa added a massive 340,676 new voter registrations. That’s a whopping 13.1% increase in just two years. The “Deputy Registrar” initiative created by Fontes gave 638 liberal volunteers access to VRAS and processing of registration forms.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/0 … 3ih6G7uxz4The Democrates are excellent fraudsters. Time to bring the law against them, now that all these are being reveal.
The information that you cited alone would seem to suffice to flip the state of Arizona from Joe Biden to President Donald Trump. There has been talk around YouTube and throughout the rest of the Internet about an impending avalanche of audits throughout our nation that may reveal that President Trump was the real winner of the 2020 American presidential election. That is, other states have been observing the Maricopa County audit and now feel that the results of it warrant that state jurisdictions that suspect that Joe Biden did not win them should conduct thorough audits too.
Could similiar audits in other states really happen?
They are actually taking place. The Democrats, since they committed the fraud, are doing everything within their power to prevent them from happening.
I shared this information on FB earlier and I haven't had one single response to it. Strange?l? Either Americans don't care or FB is hiding everything having to do with politics, Biden, the election; those things that I, personally, choose to share.
It's frustrating, but we must keep getting the truth out whenever we can.
I have not had a chance to go through the report yet, but I will. I think it's important to post it and hope more will read the report.
I completely agree Mike. Thanks to you and to all, working to expose the frauds and open more eyes to corruption at levels never seen before.
There could be a third option you have not considered. That people think you're so far out there with these conspiracies that it's not worth engaging you on politics any longer.
"it's not worth engaging you on politics any longer"
It is very acceptable to not be engaged by such people. I think this is an excellent idea. I hope the left runs with it.What's conspiratorial about this piece of information?
That Maricopa County could easily explain all the points listed, and even debunked a few as clear falsehoods would certainly qualify as conspiracies.
How did they explain 86,391 votes from people that "don't appear to exist"?
I'd like to see that.Ok....
For starters, Cyber Ninjas compared voter rolls to an admittedly incomplete commercial public database of addresses, called Melissa, which is inaccurate for the purposes of checking voter rolls. “That’s not what the purpose of those databases is for. They’re not for establishing the residence of a voter in Maricopa County to vote,” Barry C. Burden, director of the Elections Research Center at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, said on the press call. “We don’t know how they get their data or what they do exactly,” he added.
Indeed, that data, which Burden suggests is based largely on mail-forwarding requests that are by nature incomplete, was by Cyber Ninjas’ own estimates off by tens of thousands of votes. “86,391 individuals were found with no record in the database for either their name, or anyone with the same last name at the address,” the Cyber Ninjas draft report concedes. “It is expected that a number of these individuals are in fact real people with a limited public record and commercial presence; but it is unclear how large that number is.”
And yet Cyber Ninjas used this admittedly incomplete dataset to claim there are tens of thousands of what Trump is now touting as “phantom voters.” Critically, if Cyber Ninjas truly wanted to know where these voters lived and if they voted legally, they could have double-checked with official sources, like the Arizona secretary of state’s office.
Setting the bad data aside, there are a number of reasonable explanations for address changes, such as if people are forwarding their mail to a vacation home, or are back home from college, or are temporary caretakers of sick people in the midst of a pandemic. “They’re trying to spin as suspicious circumstances and findings that are not suspicious,” said Elizabeth Howard, one of the secretary of state’s observers of the audit and senior counsel in the Democracy Program at the Brennan Center for Justice at NYU Law.
Lastly, as the report notes, Arizona law allows voters to cast their ballots for president in Arizona if they move to a different state in the 29-day period preceding the election, the same period analyzed by Cyber Ninjas.
The “moved voter” claim is not even the biggest lie that Cyber Ninjas and Trump are holding up as proof of fraud. The group’s other “critical” finding was that there were 10,342 potential double voters, a claim which has already been debunked. The Ninjas claimed to have found these “double voters” by comparing the roughly 2.1 million Maricopa County voters to voters in other counties. Their analysis found more than 10,000 records with the same name and birthday.
The analysis has one fatal flaw. The audit team didn’t actually compare birth days and months, just birth years. In a dataset that large, there are statistically bound to be many, many people with the same name and the same birth year. It’s a phenomenon called “the birthday problem,” Burden, of the University of Wisconsin-Madison, said.
When White, the veteran election analyst, actually did the work of systematically cross-checking the “double voters” in multiple counties against those counties’ databases, he found that they were not “double voters” as Cyber Ninjas and Trump have claimed. “I did check those records and in many cases I found that the people had different political party registrations, they had different voting histories, they had different occupations, so my summary of that is that they were in fact different people,” White said."real people with a limited public record", such as no voter i d., no driver's license, no Government-issued i.d. Nothing/Nada.....Either way, real or imaginary people, their votes should not have counted.
So very true. The law is the law, and poll workers ignored numerous election laws on the Arizona law books upon counting those same defective votes last November. That same dereliction of duties by poll workers was even pointed out at the presentation of the Maricopa County election-integrity audit results on September 24, 2021.
You invented that part that limited public record means any of those things you listed. A legal voter, who has a limited public record, is still a LEGAL voter with Constitutional rights that you think is acceptable to deny.
How can they prove they have a legal right to vote if they have limited public record? Don't they need to prove they are a citizen to be eligible to vote? They should have proper identification just like actual US citizens. If you are a legal US citizen, there are plenty of records of you. A key one would be a voter registration.
No V, I just used reason. Seriously, in the 21st century you'd have to be a ghost to have a "limited public record."
This is all a desperate, vague attempt to explain away and cover-up cheating.Isn't it interesting how the left constantly talks about "rights" but none of them mention "responsibilities." I suppose many of them don't realize that rights come with responsibilities.
So here is a very important fact - to register to vote in Arizona, you simply need proof of citizenship.
In Arizona:
VALID FORMS OF PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP
If you have an Arizona driver’s license or non-operating license issued after October 1,
1996, write the number in Box 9. This will serve as proof of citizenship and no
additional documents are needed. However, if your license was issued when you were
not a U.S. citizen but you later became a U.S. citizen, complete Box 11 or provide
another form of proof of citizenship.
Other acceptable proof of citizenship(only one is needed):
• Legible copy of a birth certificate that verifies citizenship. If the name on the birth
certificate is not the same as your current legal name, submit supporting documents
(e.g. marriage certificate).
• Legible copy of the pertinent pages of your passport
• Presentation to the County Recorder of U.S. naturalization documents, or Alien
Registration Number, Naturalization Certificate Number, or Citizenship Certificate
Number (Box11)
• Indian Census Number, Bureau of Indian Affairs Number, Tribal Treaty Card
Number, or Tribal Enrollment Number (Box10)
• Legible copy of your Tribal Certificate of Indian Blood or Tribal or Bureau of Indian
Affairs Affidavit of Birth
Do not send original documents. Make a printed copy of proof of citizenship and mail it
with your completed registration form to your County Recorder. Visit www.azsos.gov if
you have questions about proof of citizenship.
Here is how they describe the address you need to be able to register:
Residential Address (where you live – no P.O. Box/business address) / Domicilio Residencial (donde usted vive – no use un apartado postal ni dirección comercial)
If no street address, describe location using mileage, cross streets, parcel #, subdivision name/lot, or landmarks. Draw a map and/or provide latitude/longitude or geocode in Box 23 if located in a rural area without a traditional street address.
So, you're telling me the commercial database used would been accurate based on the vague address requirements used to register to vote in Arizona?
https://azsos.gov/sites/default/files/2 … able_0.pdf
And then there is this:
Cyber Ninjas used a commercial database service called Melissa to try to find voters' addresses and compare them with the voters' addresses in the county's database. They used this method to identify several discrepancies, including voters they claimed had moved out of state before they voted and people who had died before they voted.
But that database is not always accurate and does not always have all voter information. The contractors admitted as much when, later in their report, they noted that they couldn’t locate information for about 86,391 voters using the service.
https://www.melissa.com/direct/property-data/
So, you're claiming that you're certain about fraud even though the contractors admitted to using a database that is admittedly not accurate or that does not have all the information they would need to formulate such a conclusion. This is why people think you're out there on the fringe for trying to sell such a weak narrative.I saw the AP story you are referring to and I think a few things are not mentioned.
1. If you are a US citizen, there will be many public records of you. Drivers license, voting, passport, taxes, etc. This is especially the case if you are a naturalized citizen. To get citizenship you must maintain a residence, have a job, have significant amount of paperwork on file with the federal government, and more.
2. So, who doesn't have a strong public record? I would say non-citizens. I know from my time in California illegal immigrants live in a cash-only society and never have bank accounts. There are people who will rent a residence to people with only a conversation. If they go to the hospital in LA, they can make up a name and still receive treatment. It happens all the time. They don't want to be known by authorities. So, there is very little if any public record of them.
3. Can non-citizens get a driver's license? You bet they can and they do at numbers that would astound you.
It is obvious there were thousands of people who voted in the AZ election who should not have voted. I expect denial and an attack of the facts by the left. Democrats don't want their dishonest way broadcast to the world.I'm not really surprised that Cyber Ninjas couldn't match so many voters with addresses using the Melissa Commercial database. One reason is that I'd like to know how Melissa's services handle the 120,000 Native Americans and Indigenous people living on Tribal Lands in Maricopa County, which is the largest county in the nation for such a population.
You make some wild conspiracy theory that it just has to be illegals voting, devoid of any proof. But, yet again, there are pretty simple explanations for the claims that Cyber Ninjas made."illegals voting, devoid of any proof"
Is there any proof they're not? The voting records just in Arizona show there are a lot of problems.
What is YOUR reasoning for someone to have little or no public record of themselves?Plenty of reasoning:
They are poor. And yet, they have the right to vote. (7,500 homeless in Maricopa County)
They could be a member or tribal lands where the Melissa database might not extend its coverage to. And yet, they have the right to vote. (over 120,000 live on tribal lands)
They could be a person of advanced age and no longer own a driver's license. And yet, they have the right to vote.
They could be disabled and lack the ability to travel to get the ID's to have much of a public record. And yet, they have the right to vote.
They could be part of the 11% of citizens that lack government ID. And yet, they have the right to vote (21 million Americans).
There are plenty of obvious reasons when one steps outside of their own white privilege and thinks about them.
Aside from that:
Cyber Ninja itself admits that the database they used does not have complete data to formulate the conclusions you are alleging.I would say you may be right to prove my theory, BUT there is also no proof for your theory.
Your comment about the people on tribal lands shows you haven't spent much time around native Americans. In order to get benefits from the BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs), they have to be registered with a recognized tribe. So, there are plenty of records of native Americans.But does the Melissa commercial database have access to tribal records? That was what I was asking. Neither you or I probably know the answer to that question, yet it could be a very simple answer to why the numbers do not match up based on the sourcing Cyber Ninjas used. Especially when Cyber Ninjas already admitted that the Melissa commercial database is flawed and elections experts have been critical of them using it for such a purpose.
I'm sure it will be, but the question is what happens next? can the fraud lead to the ousting of grandfather Biden? That's not going to be easy because there's nothing in the constitution that allows it; in any case one year is already gone and three to go and that in any case will be the end of Biden.
Fabricated fraud will definitely not lead to anything.
The recount was a success. It exposed the fraud committed by the Democrat party. The Arizona AG has requested the backup data from the recount. There is a possibility criminal charges may be filed.
This will bring a lot of attention to the behavior of Democrats in future elections.
Biden's behavior will bring about the Republicans taking back the Congress and Senate. THEN, we can have a election fraud investigation done at the national level.
Joe Biden is bad for the country, but he is proving to be good for Republicans
Good will come from this in the form of more honest elections.After reading the report it shows several areas where fraud seemed very apparent. I feel this report will be a very good tool to promote and create new election laws in Arizona. Changes in the area where the report pointed out were weaknesses in the current voting laws. Especially in areas that clearly invited fraud purposely, and non-purposely.
I also expect the report will be used to "show cause" for any and all pending lawsuits that involve the policy changes in Arizona. has already been made in the voting laws.
I think it must be odd, uncommon, or even an exerggeration to use the American Constitution as a defence document for "grandpa" Joseph Biden. Curiously, the present generation of Americans seems to forget how late ex-President Richard Nixon, was boot out of the White House. He was given the opinion to resign or he risk being shamefully demoted. Late Nixon choice the former and save his face. What was Nixon fault? He committed a crime? Watergate. And he was judge more by the House practically than theoritically by the American Constitution. That said, ex President Trump also face the House for a wrong in foreign affairs. Why was the House headed by Nancy Pelosi keeping mum in the case of Biden? Is there any amendment that excempt or immune Biden from doing any wrong in office? This comment could be a good, seperate thread. But I deem it fit we continue discussing here.
Joe Biden will likely destroy himself. There is already a great amount of pressure from all directions for him to resign. Every time you turn around, there is a news story about someone going through the motions to seek his impeachment. His health is deteriorating. He probably won't make it past January. He should never have run for president, because anyone can see that he is not all there. The question is who is going to replace him once that happens. Kamala Harris and Nancy Pelosi would not make suitable leaders in the Oval Office. A whole host of elected officials have signed a petition for the 2020 American presidential election to be decertified nationwide. It may be ultimately decided on a collective level that it would make more sense to reinstate Donald Trump to the Oval Office rather than rely upon the current line of presidential succession that would not give us any decent leader until we got down it to either Patrick Leahy or Chuck Grassley.
I'm completely with you in that. That is simple commonsense, saving a lot of headache.
Fraud? Not even close. Everything is easily explainable as a bunch of people who do not understand elections making ridiculous claims.
FINDINGS
The Cyber Ninjas’ report listed one finding as a “critical” concern and two as “high” concerns, but elections experts quickly refuted the claims.
The report’s recommendations, based on its findings, also largely overlap with practices already in use in the state. Amy Chan, Clean Elections commissioner and former elections director under former Republican Secretary of State Ken Bennett, noted the overlaps..
“It’s not that these are bad recommendations; it’s more that they’re telling on themselves that they don’t know we already do them,” Chan said.
The report’s recommendation to compare voter rolls to Electronic Registration Information Center lists, or ERIC lists, for example, is unnecessary because Arizona is already an ERIC member state, Chan said. ERIC is a nonprofit that helps states maintain accurate voter rolls. Thirty states and D.C. are members.
Elections in Arizona also already use paper ballots and create a paper trail for ballots cast by individuals with disabilities in an alternative format.
Cyber Ninjas said its finding regarding mail-in votes from previous addresses was “critical.” The report said they found 23,344 ballots that “may have met this condition.”
They claimed that the only way the correct person could return the ballot was if it was improperly forwarded or if the voter knew the current occupant of their previous address.
That’s not true, the county and elections experts said.
“Cyber Ninjas still don’t understand this is legal under federal election law,” the county’s Twitter posted. “To label it a ‘critical’ concern is either intentionally misleading or staggeringly ignorant. AZ senators should know this too.”
Chan said there are a few reasons someone may vote and the address tied to their registration is different from where they’re currently living. Military and overseas voters can cast federal-only ballots linked to their stateside address, and people move all the time.
The county added that it had 20,933 one-time temporary address requests for the November election. It also noted that snowbirds and college students may have forwarding addresses while they’re out of the county. Ballots are not forwarded.
The Cyber Ninjas came to their previous address voter number and other figures in their report by comparing the final voted file to a commercial database. Tammy Patrick, a former federal compliance officer for the Maricopa County Elections Department, said using commercial databases is problematic and that those products can be “some of the lowest quality” — outdated and inaccurate. Patrick is now a senior adviser to the elections program at the Democracy Fund, a nonpartisan foundation that advocates for the U.S. democratic system.
“One of the most critical, critical pieces of this is they are relying a lot on that commercial addressing service,” Patrick said. “Traditionally, that is not a path that most people go down.”
The Cyber Ninjas also labeled “high” their finding that 9,041 more ballots were returned than were received. But that finding and a finding that the official result totals don’t match the Final Voted File can be explained by protected voters, whose addresses aren’t included in the Final Voted File to protect their safety.
“Standard stuff from this camp,” Maricopa County Recorder Stephen Richer tweeted. “Conveniently ignores the fact that there are protected voters who aren’t produced in these reports. Because, you know, we care about law enforcement, judges, domestic violence victims, etc.”
Logan said his team asked the county about the discrepancy a week or so ago.
“The day before we were to present results, they decided to tell us that those were actually protected voters,” Logan said.
Logan said his team wasn’t able to determine if that was true before presenting its report, and he blamed Maricopa County for not cooperating sooner.
The Cyber Ninjas’ third top finding was that 10,342 voters may have voted in Maricopa County and in other counties because they shared the same full name and birth year as someone who voted elsewhere. The report acknowledged that some people share that information but said it was not common and that the list should be reviewed.
The county and experts disagreed.
“There are dozens of people with the exact same name,” Patrick said. “Every year you see what are the most common baby names this year. Well, in 18 years, that means those people with the common baby names are all going to be registering to vote.”
The county gave an example: There are seven active voters in Maricopa County named Maria Garcia who were born in 1980. There are 12 statewide.
“To identify this as a critical issue is laughable,” the county tweeted.The county officials from Maricopa county are facing possible legal action against them from the AG of Arizona. Whatever they say can't be taken serious as they are facing possible criminal prosecution. Who are these "experts?" What have they done that makes them "experts" No story ever covers that question.
There are "experts" who disagree with the report, there are also "experts" who are shocked by the report. I guess it's time to pick your expert.
Most of the people in Arizona now believe there was fraud in the 2020 election.So those facing possible legal action cannot be taken seriously? Is this now your standard for truth? Better take a really long, hard look in the mirror to examine who you get your truths from. The irony of making such a statement is pretty comical.
My posts lists a few of my experts. Please go ahead and list your experts with years of experience running elections that agree with that report. This should be entertaining."So those facing possible legal action cannot be taken seriously?"
No, they can not. Especially people facing possible criminal charges. Politicians are known as liars, but when facing possible criminal charges, they double and triple down on their lies. So, the Maricopa County Commissioners are not to be taken serious. They will do anything to save themselves.
It appears Wisconsin is also conducting an audit of how its 2020 election laws were followed.
'Some evidence has been produced previously that shows some election officials acted unilaterally in deciding not to follow established state law," Gableman said in a recent video. "We will request from those officials and others with potential knowledge of unlawful actions and will compel them if necessary to produce documents and testimony that will allow the public to gain a comprehensive understanding of how their elections were managed."
https://www.wnd.com/2021/10/wisconsin-r … subpoenas/
The bottom line in all of this is...it will not go away. As I have said before, it is no longer a matter of IF the Republicans will take back Congress, it is a matter of how much of a majority they will hold. The goal is a veto-proof Congress and control of the Senate. Should this happen, biden wouldn't be able to stop legislation from being passed.
THEN a national investigation will be able to be properly conducted on the 2020 election fraud.Let it began at all cost. This will serve as a warning and as a deterrant to the Dems and others. Election voters fraud during the November 2020 elections that has been swept under the carpet for long, should no longer be hidden.
We understand the warning that the GOP and their idiot followers will live in whatever reality they want to paint them into, and then turn to violence when called upon. Including when a secure election is held that votes them out of power.
Wow V, I see that I am not missing anything substantive here.
Same old, same old!If by same old, same old, you mean that I'm fed up with these lies being spread by ignorant people about fraud that leads to the assault on police and the restriction of people's rights after a very successful election with huge turnout, then I'm fine with that.
You have forgotten BLM chanting, "pigs in a blanket, fry em like bacon", led to the daily assault on Police Officers and has placed their lives in more danger than they are already in! It really is criminal, but these hate mongers get a pass.
BTW, one person, from the Jan. 6 March to the Capitol Building, an innocent female Veteran, was the only one murdered that day, she was shot by a Police Officer who is a SORRY EXCUSE for a Police Officer, he gives them a bad name, firing randomly into a crowd of people was a horrific thing to do, he should be in jail, not the people that walked into the Capitol building taking selfies!
Also, it's interesting to me that you and other Dems believe that Joe Biden is so popular/so special that he would have even kicked Barack Obama's butt in a head to head race, that's just how popular ole Joe is, that really surprises me.Nice whataboutism that completely ignores the act that caused protests, the murder of a black man in the streets by a policeman.
BTW, she was not murdered as you claim. The brave policeman was defending people from her violent attempt to break into the Capitol while our elected reps were being evacuated from a crowd chanting to hang the Vice President. Maybe if she wasn't breaking multiple laws (not even remotely innocent as you falsely claim) and being a threat to our democracy, she would not have been shot, as was the finding in absolving the brave officer of any fault.
Also, it's interesting that you can ignore how unpopular Trump had been his entire term that acted as a motivator for people to get out and vote his butt out of office. And during a pandemic, one that Trump completely messed up on, people had plenty of time to register to vote that trainwreck out of office.Well, AB
Right wingers are a hoot, you will find justification for a white police officer to shoot a black man in the back for jay walking, but turn this woman, part of a violent mad dog right wing mob, into a martyr. I would be concerned for the safety of the congressmen. These "people" gave no one the impression of a peaceful gathering. With their Confederate and Nazi banners, it is clear that they certainly were anything but Patriots. But you can keep adorning the tinfoil hat so many of you wear at the height of fashion.
I can see no real "meeting of the minds" with you folks at all. This is why so many of us can't see our way clear to support 'your side' nor any of its agendas....You are making up crap. I am just stating facts, but "you folks"(your term not mine) can't handle the truth.
P.S. You stating that Police Officers "shoot jaywalkers in the back", is every bit as radical and disturbing as BLM chanting, "pigs in a blanket, fry em like bacon"
By your own reasoning, Trump and his big lie should not be believed as he is facing possible legal action.
Meanwhile, audit experts who checked the Cyber Ninjas report called it what it was, the real fraud.
https://real-audits.org/2021/10/01/mari … e-numbers/You calling the woman who was shot 'innocent' is not a fact, it's a lie. Pretty sure that being part of a mob that had already attacked police and then was trying to break deeper into the Capitol as our elected reps were still being evacuated made her in violation of laws and an immediate safety threat.
She was not a threat, not even a little bit. It is horrific what was done to her, almost as bad... what was done to all of us, with the installment of Joe Biden.
Were police already attacked? Yes.
Was the crowd chanting to hang Mike Pence? Yes.
Were they breaking in after repeatedly being warned to stop and desist? Yes.
Were Congressmen still being evacuated? Yes.
That definitely made her in violation of the law and a threat, even you remain in serious denial that she was not. What was horrific is that she was programmed to commit such acts in the first place and that you are just as brainwashed as she clearly was by defending her illegal actions all based on lies. She was a domestic terrorist on that day, and here you are, defending domestic terrorism online.Reminds me of the old saying "If I have a gun and you do not, I am the threat and you are not."
Shooting an unarmed person and claiming it was necessary is quite disturbed. If a career criminal gets killed by police, the Dems will rationalize burning down entire cities. If an unarmed woman is shot to death...since she's a conservative...they can rationalize it.
It is easy to see they have one standard for themselves and one for others. This is why it makes it difficult to take any of them serious about anything.
The motto of the liberals should be "Double Standards and Hypocrisy are US!"
There's video of many of the people that were there that day walking into an open door, right past Police Officers. Not all were violent, MOST were not, but nonetheless, they were held without being charged for months, only to be charged with misdemeanors.
None of this is okay in a Country that has a Bill of Rights. Their rights have been violated. Much of this was a set up, as we now know. I hope that Ashli Babbitt's family has a good attorney!So do I, so they can pay for the damages she caused while committing her crimes. And there's video of Ashli Babbitt being shot after breaking through a door, after being repeatedly warned by the police to desist. Ashli Babbitt was not walking into an open door, she was violently breaking into a secure area where police were securing elected reps that were clearly in danger, after police had been attacked, and after that mob had been chanting their intent to find and hang the Vice President of the United States with a built gallows constructed outside.
None of that was set up - she broke the law, was a threat, and died in the service of Trump's lies about an election he fairly lost and his malignant narcissism is unable to deal with. When you break free from defending domestic terrorism, it will be nice to converse with you again.Let's recap; you, Valeant, have now referred to me and others as idiots and uninformed. You've called me a defender of domestic terrorism at least twice now. Cred stated that Police Officers shoot jaywalkers in the back.
An unarmed Veteran is murdered in cold blood and you call her a domestic terrorist.
I have no desire to converse with either one of you ever again.Good. Because you are here clearly defending domestic terrorism. Where do I come to the conclusion that it was? Here:
CHRISTOPHER WRAY: 'That attack, that siege was criminal behavior, plain and simple. And it's behavior that we, the FBI, view as domestic terrorism.'
You know who else was a veteran? Timothy McVeigh. The sooner you come to terms that veterans can be threats to this country, just as Ashli Babbitt was on January 6, then maybe you'll realize you are publicly defending domestic terrorists for all to see. Shame on you.August 04, 2020 "The FBI has opened more than 300 DOMESTIC terrorism investigations since late May and arrested nearly 100 people in Portland, Oregon, a focal point of the George Floyd protests, a top federal prosecutor said on Tuesday." https://www.voanews.com/a/usa_race-amer … 93930.html
June 4, 2020
FBI Director Christopher Wray’s Remarks at Press Conference Regarding Civil Unrest in Wake of George Floyd’s Death
CHRISTOPHER WRAY:"The FBI holds sacred the rights of individuals to peacefully exercise their First Amendment freedoms. Non-violent protests are signs of a healthy democracy, not an ailing one. The FBI’s mission is to protect the American people and uphold the Constitution. That mission is both dual and simultaneous—it is not contradictory. In engaging with our communities during these protests, we in law enforcement must balance the safety and security of our communities with our citizens’ constitutional rights and civil liberties. One need not—and must not—come at the expense of the other.
In recent days, the violence, threat to life, and destruction of property that we’ve seen in some parts of the country jeopardizes the rights and safety of all citizens, including peaceful demonstrators. It has to stop. We’re seeing people who are exploiting this situation to pursue violent, extremist agendas—anarchists like Antifa and other agitators. These individuals have set out to sow discord and upheaval, rather than join in the righteous pursuit of equality and justice. And by driving us apart, they are undermining the urgent work and constructive engagement of all those who are trying to bring us together—our community and religious leaders, our elected officials, law enforcement, and citizens alike. Many have suffered from the violence instigated through these radicals and extremists, including members of our own law enforcement family—officers killed or gravely injured while just doing their jobs, fulfilling their duty to the public by trying to keep everyone safe." https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press … oyds-deathMy parents tell me that the amount of civil unrest and related violence today is worse than it was in the 1960s.
I am a boomer, and lived in Detroit, and experienced the riots and general unrest due to racism. The temperature is rising there is no doubt about it in my opinion. I am so dismayed to see much of the progress that has been made, is being done under... It's like a rock hurling down the side of a mountain, gaining momentum and will do more damage.
In my view, the Democratic party is creating this unrest at every turn. They are knowingly pitting one race against another, and it's working... My gosh, it is working. I see such anger on both sides... I see it even in a few of my own friends.
That is a good thing. Those who rioted, as opposed to peacefully protested, should be held to account as I have said all along while defending the over 90% of people who peacefully protested. There's the difference between us, I don't see those who broke our laws and committed acts of domestic terror, which were comprised of members of both parties by the way, as martyrs and defend their actions.
" There's the difference between us, I don't see those who broke our laws and committed acts of domestic terror, which were comprised of members of both parties by the way, as martyrs and defend their actions."
Yet you infer I do...
I have never condoned any form of violence at a protest or that committed by anyone breaking the law...
Keep your personal opinions of me to yourself.Tell you what, you do you and get over the idea you have any moral high ground to tell me what to do or say when I see actions that lead to violence. I didn't attend the domestic terror practice run for January 6 over there in Michigan, that's for sure.
I asked you not to get a person; a, as I have asked you time and time again. HP has rules about that.
You know what many warned me not to converse with you... I am going the route ab did... walking away from any conversation with you.
.Me pointing out that you have admitted on these forums to attending the Michigan Capitol protest, and that I view that protest as the trial run for January 6 as many in attendance were willing to put police in danger on that day by ignoring social distancing and masks during the height of the pandemic, is me pointing out how someone that can be programmed in such a way has zero rights to tell me what to say or do.
ab, It is very clear that some here on the HP forum feels they can openly insult anyone they disagree with, that is very evident. When they disagree with an opinion, they often show an unwillingness to respect others have as much right as they to express it. they bait with insults, they literally spin out of control. I feel those that use these techniques cause disruption. I feel anyone that uses these techniques have very low self-esteem. The computer gives them a forum they would otherwise not have to boost that low self-esteem.
Good for you for waking away. Your point was well taken, and I agree with your view.Thanks Sharlee. I am walking away, but first, this:
https://rumble.com/vmvcjr-court-forces- … tage..html
See ya later!When someone starts slinging insults and/or ad hominem remarks at me, I begin to feel that such a person is desperate for others to believe them or that such a person even doubts what they themselves believe. If Tulsi Gabbard had won the 2020 presidential election or even Bernie Sanders had done so, I could understand a Democrat defending that leader passionately and militantly. However, what really bewilders me is why would anyone want to defend Joe Biden regardless of how loyal they are to their Democratic causes. Putting him in office was like scraping the bottom of the barrel. He has done so much damage to our nation that it is not even funny. Nobody has to like Donald Trump if they do not wish to do so. However, at the end of the day, nobody can really dispute the fact that Donald Trump did so much better of a job as our president during his four-year tenure than Joe Biden has done within the short amount of time that he has lived in the White House.
I share your view. And I think I have come to that very view just accumulating facts. In my view, Biden has rated havoc from the first day he walked into the White House. he has created each and every crisis we find ourselves in today. It was disappointing to see Biden win the election, his long history is so poor, the hideout for much of the campaign, and it shocked me that so many could vote for someone that just had no platform and a proclivity to lies. He says anything that he feels his audience wants to hear. In my view, this trait shows weak dishonesty in a person. So, I agree with your sentiment --- how could anyone at this point defend Biden. IMO, he is ruining the county, tearing it down in record time. I ask myself why? And the answer I come up with leaves me scared.
I hold onto one hope, American's see this man and his administration for what tI see them as -- socialist ... I feel the tide is turning, due to a couple of things. One the polls, and the street talk. Joe is lagging in the polls, and his polls get worse weekly. Two --- The Democrats in congress are revolting against the left's socialist agenda. Three --- the Republicans have seemed to wake up from a very long sleep and are not willing to put up with Democratic BS any longer.
Keep the faith...
Don't you think we should shift the focus to what happened in Portland, Minneapolis, and Seattle? Those riots made what happened in DC look like a picnic in the park. Liberals don't like to deal with the death and destruction and lawlessness that occurred for days out there. Billions in damage.
Double Standards and Hypocrisy are THEM
Like the old saying goes, "What you are speaks so loudly, I can't hear what you're saying."
So now, we on the left are engaged in insults? I read of constant assaults against the Left and its advocates of which I am one, as opposed to the alternative.
You Rightwingers are good at dishing it out but not so good at taking it.
I did not insult anyone, but I relish in ripping your ideas and philosophical foundation to tatters and if you can't deal with that, perhaps these forums are not for you. It is like they say, if you can't take the heat.....
What I saw was a mob of racists attacking the very symbol of democracy and rule of law. But those concepts frightens conservatives, combine that with pusillanimous white fragility and what do you get? It now won't be as easy to control others like it was in the "good ole days", yes? That is a damn sight lower than anything that happened in the Pacific Northwest last year. You can kick around like a toddler in a high chair, but demographics are demographics..... and it ultimately works against the Rightwinger, so we will just "Biden" our time....
Why don't you just blame me and mine for the defeat of Trump. My brothers and sisters in major urban areas were responsible for the fall of your Lord and Master, and was ultimately responsible for the outcome in November, 2020. I take pride in that, that my tribe will be a force to reckon with politically.
So no need to look to creepy conspiracy theories
I am proud of my vote and we are going to do it again in 2024, regardless of the Rightwingers attempts to be the impediment." So now, we on the left are engaged in insults? "
Some are... You have not been named or has anyone. I truly feel most of those posts here do not get personal with insults --- some do.
"I did not insult anyone, but I relish in ripping your ideas and philosophical foundation to tatters and if you can't deal with that, perhaps these forums are not for you. It is like they say, if you can't take the heat....."
This is true. But not all have the social skills that you have. As you see in this thread some have overstepped the boundaries of keeping it non-personal.
"What I saw was a mob of racists attacking the very symbol of democracy and rule by law."
That is your opinion, what you saw and are willing to stand behind.
What I saw was first a mob that entered our Capitol, many just walking in mulling around, that soon became rowdy somewhat violent destructive protesters. I saw nothing to do with race... You felt the attack was perpetrated by racists. I felt they were citizens pissed off about an election.
See how our opinions vary? But, we are civil in our discussions. We don't attack one another personally or seek to insult each other's opinions, do we? Hey, we may adamantly disagree, and come back in more depth to further an opinion. But do most here really get personal? I don't feel they do.
I am not sure why you feel anyone is trying to impede your opinion of Biden. This is a political forum, you can't expect all to agree with your opinion all of the time. SOME on the right here feel differently in regard to Biden. Do you feel we need to walk on eggshells when responding to your posts? Is it necessary for others to always agree with your opinions?
I think it is very much your right to support Biden, that's your right.
I think getting personal should be something we avoid. I think you would agree with that sentiment.Thank you, but a few posts ahead last night my name was used in vain, thus prompting this general response.
Sharlee, why all the Confederate banners and Nazi regalia, did you not see the photos? The racial slurs made to officers. Racially intimidating symbols, what does that mean? There was virtually no participation by members of minority groups, were the only people upset at the election outcome white people? People that were there to just to complain about the election outcome would not allow themselves to be represented in a such a way. Somebody has to lose every election, I should have stormed the Capitol or the Supreme Court over Bush's win over Gore in 2000? What give Trump malcontents the right to go beyond the official outcome? Just who do they think that they are?
I did not say that anyone is trying to impede my view of Biden. I said that Republicans are desperate to use every dirty trick to dissuade Folks who tend to vote Democrat.
Bring it all to me with both barrels, but don't expect me to bring a sling shot to a gunfight.
I say that the pen is mightier than the sword and I keep mine sharpened but it is NEVER anything personal, so I do agree with your sentiment."Republicans are desperate to use every dirty trick to dissuade Folks who tend to vote Democrat."
Trust me, Democrats do the some pretty bad things keep people from voting Republican.
"Somebody has to lose every election"
This election was won by fraud. That is why people were so upset with these results, but accepted obama's victories. It was clear obama won fairly. Nobody protested his victories, they may not have liked it, but obama winning could be accepted.
If this election didn't involve so much fraud, it may not have been a problem.Mike, that allegation has NOT been proven in any official way. It remains the stuff of QAnon fantasy.
Everything with you guys is fraud, Mike. Always true when the outcome is contrary to your wishes. Wasnt you that was claiming fraud for the California recall election even before the votes were tallied?
We all knew from the beginning that no right wing foghorn like Elder had a change in California from the outset. I could have told you that without looking.
"People that were there to just to complain about the election outcome would not allow themselves to be represented in a such a way.'
You are aware there were many thousands of people at that Rally. I would guess the great majority were Republicans. The majority left and did not take part in the march or the attack on the Capitol.
In regards to flags, I did see Confederate banners. I did not see any Nazi regalia. I just googled some photos, and could not find any Nazi regalia. I certainly will take your word on that. There certainly were a lot of flags.
I did see the scaffold that was built. I found this very disturbing. I have really thought about your comment, and where you are coming from --- Yes, I can see this would have been taken as an insult on black people. And yes if I were a black person, I would have been discouraged, and yes --- angry.
"What give Trump malcontents the right to go beyond the official outcome?"
In my view, they had no right to riot at the Capitol. It was a very poor representation of what many of us Republicans frowned on, felt it was not the way one protests a cause. There are many Republicans that especially at that point felt there was no fraud or not unusually amount that did not occur in our prior elections. Many of us hoped for a calm Congressional investigation. Just feeling this would have calmed the waters...
"I am proud of my vote and we are going to do it again in 2024, regardless of the Rightwingers attempts to be the impediment."
This is where I got the idea you felt right-wingers were attempting to impede your opinion of Biden.
As I said - I think it is very much your right to support Biden, that's your right.
I can see where when you read a right-winger comment you
might feel they are a dirty trick to dissuade Folks who tend to vote Democrat.
Hard to put it any other way, Please consider we on the "other side" are just as passionate about our beliefs as you are in yours. I truly don't see the users here that represent the right personally insulting others they don't agree with. I mean yeah there have been a bit here and there... But generally, respect is shown.
ISo, I hope you will continue to bring both barrels... I think if you did not share your true views we have nothing much to debate about. I think you keep good civil boundaries and don't hurl personal insults.
You defend your opinion, without insulting others.
It seems the forum is getting very combative, that's a shame. But I am with you -- if someone starts shooting, I bring empty all barrels. I try to keep it civil.https://abcnews.go.com/US/symbols-hate- … d=75177671
Just info on the variety of loathsome flags and banners from the riotous segment of the Jan 6th insurrection attempt.
We have differences of opinion, but any-association, regardless of how incidental, with this people of this sort has to be non negotiable from my stand point.If they live in your town? On your block? Frequent the bar or grocery store you do? Have kids in the same school as you, or attend the same college as you do?
If they also participate in a demonstration you are in, perhaps about excessive city spending? Or perhaps about making it harder for minorities to vote?
Just how far does "incidental" go before you decide it doesn't really indicate the philosophy of people around them?"If they live in your town? On your block? Frequent the bar or grocery store you do? Have kids in the same school as you, or attend the same college as you do?"
I don't know that, some of these people could easily be a next door neighbors. After all, was not this mob composed of so called "respectable folks"?
I wish that you were were as gracious about left wing oriented protests.
Incidental means that I only see the racially intimidating symbols as a highlight of the Right. Why is that? Bigotry s something that while not possessed by all participants, is tolerated and accepted by Trump advocates at this gathering and that is almost as bad.
I watched your link, in my view, it was representative of what I saw, and what went on at the Jan 6, Capitol riot. I found one area that was misleading, and not presented in my view truthfully --- The producer choose Trump's words carefully, and left out words that gave context to those words --- "I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard," President Trump
The producer owed his audience the full truth, the full words that were spoken by the president. He clearly asked the people to --- "I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard,".
AS I said, I did go back and look at photos of the Jan 6 riot, and I can see there were many banners, and flags I found interoperate, and understand they would provoke anger. I did not hear racial slurs. So, I researched your claim. I found your accusation to be true... I did not realize this went on, on that day. https://news.yahoo.com/pro-trump-mob-hu … 19789.html
I do not condone or practice racism in any form. I learned something today, I had not realized occurred, and it was due to our conversation.
"We have differences of opinion, but any-association, regardless of how incidental, with this people of this sort has to be non negotiable from my stand point."
I am not sure where you would get the idea, I associate with "these people" or that I would condone violence. But, I guess if you feel this way, it's your prerogative.
Seem as if it would be a futile proposition to converse if you truly feel this way. We would just be slapping one another silly, would we not? I have learned that keeping an open mind to what others have to say, can be very enlightening. Sometimes it turns out that their opinion adds another side to a conversation. AS it did with your bringing up that the fact that there were racial slurs at the Jan 6 riot.
Oh well, no hard feelings on my part."AS I said, I did go back and look at photos of the Jan 6 riot, and I can see there were many banners, and flags I found interoperate, and understand they would provoke anger. "
The mob of rioters and their sympathisers taking racially intimating positions weaken any desir of mine to take anything they advocate seriously. So, they choose to make enemies of me at the starting gate.
It is important to keep an open mind, but racist and racism and its practitioners and supporters can expect their message to be inaudible regardless of any underlying merit in their case.
Yes, ma'am, the facts, just the facts. The ability to listen and weigh opposing views with open mind is a gift.Would you be more comfortable with people having BLM and Antifa flags as they burn government buildings to the ground, destroy and loot businesses and cause billions of dollars worth of damage in several US cities? Does is make you feel comfortable to watch them take control of sections of a city and burn out police stations?
Is this the type of protest you are comfortable with seeing?
Seems like these alleged racists are far less destructive.Really? Because the burning of government buildings to the ground as you use as your example was also committed by one of your 'alleged racists.'
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ … orge-floyd
One who has in direct contact with another 'alleged racist' who shot a security guard in California.You missed the point so there is no reason to reply.
I am not comfortable with either one, but the faction or group that see ME and mine as the adversary and the true basis of their protest, expressed in the ideology and banners and such, I am going to look upon with much greater disdain.
I find this response very interesting Mike.
While half of this Country understands what is at stake; power-hungry radicals in charge, those whom would send ALL OF US into a life of servitude and peasantry, in a heartbeat; to a place where Government holds all the power over the people (rather than the other way around) where freedom gets replaced with chains, where the American dream gets replaced with despair, where quality of life gets replaced with just trying to survive the day.......the other half resists, THINKING this is somehow all about us vs. them.
This is how it's done, this is how we lose this Republic.
P.S. This may come off as off-topic, but it really does go hand-in-hand with your initial topic and discussion and the various directions it has taken us.
"perhaps these forums are not for you". I stand far in badmouthing a persnn if I cannot see well his or her view points. It's a sign of inmature person. I just posted a thead on that few minutes ago.
If someone gets offended because I point out they choose to defend someone the FBI has clearly determined was committing an act of domestic terrorism and claims they are an innocent, I will call that out as living in a false reality. Especially when the officer's actions were deemed necessary by multiple agencies who looked into it.
Only DOJ investigated the death. Their ruling was there wasn't sufficient evidence to charge the officer. They didn't say he didn't commit a murder, only that there wasn't sufficient evidence to bring charges. Certain requirements must be met before a charge of murder is made. On the death certificate of Ashlee Babbitt, her cause of death is listed as a homicide. Her parents have filed a wrongful death lawsuit. A federal prosecutor has opened up a case and is going to bring charges for excessive use of force.
It will take time for the truth to get out.As usual, your information is incorrect. The Capitol Police also did an internal review and found the following:
“USCP’s Office of Professional Responsibility (OPR) determined the officer’s conduct was lawful and within Department policy, which says an officer may use deadly force only when the officer reasonably believes that action is in the defense of human life, including the officer’s own life, or in the defense of any person in immediate danger of serious physical injury,” Capitol Police said in a statement.
Their actions “potentially saved Members and staff from serious injury and possible death from a large crowd of rioters who forced their way into the U.S. Capitol and to the House Chamber where Members and staff were steps away,” Capitol Police said in the release.
As to your claim that a federal prosecutor is going to bring charges, please post that link since the DOJ already dismissed the case. Don't you realize that federal prosecutors fall under the DOJ?
Her parents can certainly file a wrongful death lawsuit, but proving she was not a threat when the DOJ and Capitol Police state she was, and the FBI confirms that she was a domestic terrorist on that day will be hard to contradict.
And someday, we'll get you to understand the difference between homicide and the lie that stated this was a murder."Her parents can certainly file a wrongful death lawsuit, but proving she was not a threat when the DOJ and Capitol Police state she was, and the FBI confirms that she was a domestic terrorist on that day will be hard to contradict."
The government investigates the government and finds the government not guilty. DOJ, Capital police internal investigation....yeah, believe that one.
"Her parents can certainly file a wrongful death lawsuit, but proving she was not a threat when the DOJ and Capitol Police state she was, and the FBI confirms that she was a domestic terrorist on that day will be hard to contradict."
It won't be as difficult as you think. The government tried to settle out of court, but, the Babbit family refused. This means the government isn't as sure of their case as you believe and the Babbit family is confident in their case before a jury. You forget the main point is that she was unarmed. That is extremely significant.
"The Washington D.C. Medical Examiner’s office has ruled Trump supporter Ashli Babbitt’s death as a homicide, American Greatness learned on Wednesday. Babbitt, an Air Force veteran and small business owner, was shot dead inside the U.S. Capitol by a law enforcement officer on January 6.
Diaz determined that Babbitt, 35, died as a result of a gunshot wound to her left anterior shoulder, and called the manner of her death a “homicide.”
https://tennesseestar.com/2021/04/12/d- … -homicide/
Homicide Definition
homicide
[ˈhäməˌsīd]
NOUN
NORTH AMERICAN
the unlawful killing of one person by another.
"he was charged with homicide" · [more]
synonyms:
murder · killing · assassination · liquidation · extermination · execution · slaughter · butchery · massacre · manslaughter · patricide · matricide · parricide · fratricide · sororicide · filicide · infanticide · uxoricide · regicide · slaying.Great, you found one definition of homicide to fit your own narrative. Here is an actual one that would apply in the legal sense:
Homicide is the killing of one person by another. This is a broad term that includes both legal and illegal killings.
Here is Cornell Law's definition:
Homicide is when one human being causes the death of another. Not all homicide is murder, as some killings are manslaughter, and some are lawful, such as when justified by an affirmative defense, like insanity or self-defense.
Pretty sure when an angry, violent mob is about to overrun a policeman, and he is protecting others, that will qualify as self-defense.I don't think it covers shooting an unarmed person. That's the key, she was unarmed. He didn't warn her he was about to shoot. That is also key. Any member of law enforcement who uses deadly force on an unarmed person without giving them the opportunity to back away before being shot, has seriously broken the law. Details are important.
Unarmed mob who have already attacked police, and Byrd stated he was aware that his fellow police had already been attacked, are definitely still a threat to the safety and security of those they were guarding.
You're right, the acceptance of details are important. Byrd did warn the crowd multiple times to back away and still they came. They had every opportunity to halt their domestic terrorism and chose to be a continued threat.
But, as Sharlee's excellent link noted, using deadly force on one unarmed person is a far cry from a violent mob of people. Together, you cannot say that they are not a threat as one person might be. You are trying to apply a standard for a single person to what was an established angry, violent group of people.You need to reread the article Sharlee provided.
"Officers absolutely cannot shoot indiscriminately into a mob, for example, even if some members of a mob absolutely present an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm."I would say him shooting her as she was attempting to breach the hole they just bashed in the door would not be indiscriminately shooting into the mob. He shot her after warning her to desist and she refused and tried to breach the speaker's chamber while reps were evacuating. Hence, she made herself a threat by trying to advance into the chamber.
https://www.nbcnews.com/video/capitol-s … 9180613572Have you ever shot a handgun? I go to the range at least once a week and sometimes twice a week. There is NO WAY you can stick your weapon around the corner of a door, have a clear field of vision, and know what you are shooting at. You would not be able to determine a target. There is a saying in the army when you need to shoot but don't have a clear target. It's called "Pray and spray." That what his man did, he just pointed in the general direction. Anybody who knows about gun safety and handling knows this. It would be difficult to prove he did NOT indiscriminately fire his weapon.
This is a great way of explaining exactly what happens when you fire a gun, especially when it's done haphazardly, as had to be the case, right, in all of the chaos? You would think that they would have the best of the best, protecting and serving the Capitol Building, that obviously is not the case!
It's a shame that this Police Officer is being protected, while Ashli Babbitt, though dead, has been thrown to the wolves.Yeah, that from the party that claims to back the blue. It's not as if Ashli Babbitt were taking a tour of the Capitol.
Byrd was aware police had already been attacked. The video I posted clearly shows them breaking into the Capitol, then Ashli Babbitt being shot trying to breach through the doorway to the area where the representatives were. This crowd was a clear threat to the safety of those representatives, including Babbitt, as they had already violently attacked police on their way inside.Two things are clear from the video you provided.
1. The officer did not have proper control of the weapon. His stance was off and grip was all wrong.
2. IF he did give warnings there was so much noise and chaos he had no way of knowing if his commands were heard let alone acknowledged. Someone can't be expected to follow commands they have not heard.
At that point the officer had a duty to retreat.
I'm sure these are some of the things that will be brought up during the civil trial.So the police should run from criminals when they are breaking the law and threatening to hurt other people? In what world is that even logical?
I suggest you speak with law enforcement and learn when and when they are not permitted to use lethal force. I've never seen a situation where it is permitted against someone who is unarmed. In these situations, they use tasers, pepper spray and what they call "hands on" techniques.
Broadly speaking, the use of force by law enforcement officers becomes necessary and is permitted under specific circumstances, such as in self-defense or in defense of another individual or group.
Both of those apply to this situation. You keep making your argument as if Ashli Babbitt were the only one there. She was not, she part of a violent mob. The mob, whether armed or not, had already violently attacked police and was therefore a danger to any other police. And that mob clearly was a threat to those being evacuated, and Byrd was tasked with their protection.It will be interesting to see what happens in the civil court case.
Yes it will!
What I find "interesting" as well, is how Police Officers have been lumped together {just like the people present in D.C. on Jan. 6th} by the left, as deplorable and the dregs of society, for the past few years.
BLM and ANTIFA, ignored {by the left} as Police Officers have had targets placed on their backs via chants of; "pigs in a blanket fry em like bacon" and "what do we want, dead cops, when do we want it, now"!
But, now, suddenly, in this case, of an ineptly incompetent Police Officer, they've found their voice!
Interesting!
That is what is technically called reasonable force in law.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgnh5jvmuZw
This youtube is the best I have found that shows the shooter. What is very interesting it shows that there were several officers on the outside of the door with her. An officer was actually the second person to rush to her side as she fell...
If she was a threat to anyone it would make sense that the three officers that were in feet of her as she was shot would have taken some form of action to stop her from even starting to climb through the broken window. It did not appear they found her to be a threat. This video shows the shooter to be many feet away from her on the other side of the door, and she had not totally climb through the window,
Very sad to see her villainized by the media. It appears the officer seemed to just panic and shoot her.
Yes, I have shot a handgun. Long line of military and law enforcement in my direct family.
Watch the video, he is on his side of the door, she attempts to climb through the broken glass of the doorway and he shoots her on a clear line of sight, causing her to then fall out of that doorway after she was trying to breach the area where our reps were, after repeatedly being warned not to. This was not indiscriminate, it was an attempt to repel a breach in order to protect representatives from a crowd chanting for violence.
I pity both the late Veteran and the Police Officer that shot her.
Mike, please watch this footage of the shooting. Note that there were at least three officers within feet of Ms. Babbit while she started to climb into the window, and as she was shot and fell backward they literally rushed to her side.to give aid. It would appear they being on her side of the door when the window was being broken, and when she started to climb into the window, if they felt she was armed or a threat --- would they not have tried to stop her or control her in some way? This is the best video I have found that shows what actually happened. What is also sad, you will not the shooter was calm, and many feet from her when he shot her.
Note also on Babbit's side there were many media with cameras. It appeared they did not feel threatened either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgnh5jvmuZwSharlee, thanks for sharing that clip. No matter how many times I see it, it is something that is difficult to watch. It could have been avoided.
I believe the lawsuit by the Babbitt family will show how badly this was handled. I'm sure it won't be difficult to have firearm experts and law enforcement experts to testify as to exactly what this officer did...murder Ashlee.
Mike, This is an informative article written by Geoffrey Alpert is a criminology professor --- "But the shooting of Ashli Babbitt is more complicated than ideologically grounded conclusions suggest. We are scholars who have studied policing for a combined four decades and experts in police tactics and the use of force who have testified in state and federal courts, and we’ve noticed legal and factual complexities that have gone largely unacknowledged. Applying the typical legal framework, we have serious reservations about the propriety of the shooting. We also have some doubts about whether the typical legal framework is the right one to apply."
https://www.lawfareblog.com/evaluating- … li-babbittI read the article. This is the key paragraph for me.
"One additional point bears mentioning. Most police uses of force, including the discharge of a firearm, are individualized; they are justified only if a specific target presents the appropriate level of threat. Officers absolutely cannot shoot indiscriminately into a mob, for example, even if some members of a mob absolutely present an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm."
What? More common sense, you don't say? I think it will not matter how many articles are produced or how many suggest, "let's put all of this in a proper perspective" Mike, TDS still clouds the minds of some and I don't think there's a cure.
I agree. Those with TDS my have a chronic condition.
It appears the Arizona audit is doing what was necessary. It is bringing attention to the fraud committed during the 2020 election.
It appears state legislators from around the country are now calling for a forensic audit of the entire 2020 election in all states. The desire for this type of audit is growing nationwide.
"State lawmakers from a long list of states are working together in a coalition that is calling for a forensic review of 2020 presidential election results in all 50 states.
The "letter from state legislators to the American people" was released on Monday, and was signed by nearly 100 lawmakers already.
"We have come to the conclusion that all 50 states need to be forensically audited. Voter rolls should be scrubbed with a canvass of the voters to ensure future integrity of our elections," they wrote. "If results from these measures prove an inaccurate election was held, as has been shown in Arizona, and is being shown in many other states; then it is clear that certification of many electors was improperly rendered in January 2021 of the November 2020 United States presidential election."
Those states should "decertify" their electors if the evidence shows elections were certified prematurely or inaccurately, they said."
https://www.wnd.com/2021/10/state-lawma … 0-ballots/What it is doing is bringing to public light those willing to set aside reality to undermine the democratic norms of our country. So two state legislators from each state. There were 500 who stood behind the For the People Act in expanding voter rights.
That's very terrible on both sides. Two wrongs will never make a right. Honestly, the governors of those states where the carnage took place kept sealed lips. They reason that then President Trump could be held responsible. Whether those states where the riots, looting, and burning took place is Democrate or Republican is not very clear to me. The Anitfa & BLM(to me All Live Matter-blue, yellow, white, red, brown) role there too is still a question mark on my mind.
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