Fetus or Child

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aoiffe379posted 15 years ago
When does a fetus become a child? Last night I watched news about a doctor who does abortions during 21- 28 weeks. This bothered me because I am Godmother to twin girls who were born prematurely[21-28 weeks],weighing about a pound.They are almost five now. The idea upset me a bit; but my friend said that a fetus is not a child until it is outside the mother's womb and has taken its first breath.Then it becomes a living soul. I asked how the child moved in its mother's womb.He insisted that it did not breathe.His point was that nobody should tell another person what to do with his or her body. What do you think about such views?
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nobody should tell a person what to do with her/his own body.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes they should.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes they should.
  
  Yes they should.
  
  Ner ner ner ner ner.
  
  Give us a break.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Go back to your kennel, doggy !
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  We tell people what they can't do "with their bodies" all the time. Most laws are about exactly that.
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  Aya Katzposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Most laws are about how not to meddle with the bodies of others without their permission. Laws about what to do with your own body are an aberration.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Like laws that say it is illegal to kill and dispose of an elderly relative living under your care because he or she may have become an inconvenient burden? Laws like that?
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  Aya Katzposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There we go. Once again we see that support for abortion rests on dehumanization to justify taking a life.
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  Aya Katzposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No. A fetus is a human. No argument.
  
  But no human has a right to live off another without permission.
  
  The good news is that most women want their babies, even under very difficult conditions. Give them a chance, and they will choose life!
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So that elderly relative lives or dies at your whim?
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  cocopremeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I would argue that the woman tacitly gave the child permission to exist when she allowed sperm to enter her body and cause it to grow.
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  Aya Katzposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If she got AIDS, would you agree that she gave the AIDS virus permission, too?
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Is a human child a "virus" attacking the body of a woman?
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  cocopremeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If she got AIDS from unprotected sex, then yeah, she didn't stop it. She made the choice not to protect herself.
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  AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How romantic
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  cocopremeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The baby inside of her is not the mother's own body. It's another life in there. Nobody should tell it that it has to die. Any 10 year old child can tell you how babies are made, so it's not like some big mystery. Women should have the choice over whether or not they decide to sleep with someone. If they decide to have sex, they should accept the consequences of that decision. That's where the choice should come in, not when there is another human being's life at stake. Cases of rape or when the mother's life is in jeopardy are a different matter, though.
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  cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  every child deserves to be wanted. i have read too many cases where women, weirdly enough, thought abortion immoral so they brought their unwanted baby into the world and abused the crap out of it until it died. remember BabyP?
  
  what, it's immoral to have an abortion but NOT immoral to beat and rape a child?
  
  i am talking about BABIES suffering the most unimaginabe abuse, including being raped.
  
  a BABY.
  
  think about that.
  
  in cases like this, it would have been better if they had never been brought into the world.
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  AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Just curious, as I've never studied the matter, but isn't there a huge waiting list for new-born adoptions?
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  cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  that's what i don't understand. these women who don't want their babies, don't believe in abortion, but then keep it instead of giving it up so someone who WANTS a baby can raise it. then they abuse it, let their boyfriends abuse it, etc.
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  Aya Katzposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Cosette, they probably did want the baby.
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  cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  i read a case where this woman got pregnant and didn't want her baby, but she thought abortion was wrong, so she kept the baby and abused it its whole short life, until finally she had him taken out to the desert and shot.
  
  what about these prom-night babies tossed into dumpsters? it would have been better for them if they were never born instead of suffering that way.
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  Aya Katzposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  cocopremeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How do we know that for sure? I wonder if the baby actually would feel that way? Everyone suffers in life. But through our suffering we grow emotionally and mentally. Without it, we would stagnate. I don't understand why some think death is preferable to experiencing a little pain.
  
  Yes, there are extreme cases when children are abuses and when babies are thrown in dumpsters, but that is not the norm. I think the focus should be on educating women about sex and birth control and abstinence rather than allowing barbaric practices to continue. It seems our society places a higher value on sexual promiscuity than it does on human life. Life is more than sex, shocking I know.
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  SparklingJewelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  ...and souls grow and evolve spiritually as well from trials and pains...
  
  well said bit cocopreme
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  cocopremeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Babies can mean more money from the government for some women. They may not want the babies. They may just want the money.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's a twisted argument. NOT having an abortion = beating and raping a child? No, ridiculous. You could insert any crime against a person into that equation and say, "See? This wouldn't have happened if we had killed the child."
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  cocopremeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you. It is illogical. Just because someone doesn't want a child does not mean that he or she is automatically going to abuse it. And even if that were the case, as a supposedly moral society we should focus on improving the child protection system rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hard to believe people are honestly repeating variations on this twisted concept.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  When a woman becomes pregnant. I think they use the fetus/child stuff to make abortion sound alright. If someone thinks it's still a "fetus" and not yet a "child", it will give them less guilt to get an abortion.
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  IzzyMposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's all words really...fetus/child. From the moment of conception, a new life has been created..call it what you will. In a few short months, that new life is capable of lving a life on its own, away from the host body that carried it, it's mother.
  Abortions from the second trimester onwards should be banned except in cases where the mother's life is in danger.
  First trimester abortions are preferrable if that new life really isn't wanted. IMO.
  But it's still murder.
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  shazwellynposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  consciousness grows. We develop and become more fully aware, given time. The earlier a termination, the better.
  
  Anything that might have upset you, dont feel bad. You cant change the past, you cant predict the future - you can only live in the here and now and do the best you can x
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  Brenda Durhamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Life begins at conception.
  Abortion is killing a child.
  It's not a decision to make, except in the rare instances when a choice may need to be made between the mother's immediate death and the baby's, or for scraping the womb in cases of rape.
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  prettydarkhorseposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Life begins when the sperm and egg cell meet, however there are many reasons for abortion,
  
  baby is due to incest
  raped
  mothers life is in danger
  
  and not merely due to
  
  financially difficulty
  emotionally not ready
  father is unknown
  too many children alreadys
  
  I am for abortion only when the mothers life is in danger
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  Tim and Crystalposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  As a mother I believe that the baby inside of the womb is alive. It is breathing and living. Beacause a mother can feel the baby inside her. The baby eats and drinks just like we do. They eat and drink everything the mother does. How else do they think a baby grows.
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  Frugal Fannyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  While I technically believe that a person is entitled to choose what happens to their body, personally speaking, I couldn't justify ever aborting a pregnancy except under extenuating circumstances. To me, that means that having the baby would have to pose some kind of a threat to my life or its life. I have a friend who had to get a late-term abortion because the baby was developing with organs outside her body, and in such a way that it would not have survived long outside of mom.
  
  Also, I think that a fetus becomes a child the moment the quickening happens.... that first little stirring that happens around 4 months along, or thereabouts.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, first off- let's start on a solid note. The right of choice remains with the mother, because it is SHE who bares the responsibility. It isn't for government or anyone else to determine, besides the doctor(ethically).
  
  This topic continues to be exploited for what damage it can have, so as to separate people from others. This shouldn't be a concern of individual people. You are swayed by emotions and it's leading you to making or imposing your will on others, which is diminishing another individual right to life and right of choice.
  
  The abortion topic is highly controversial and shouldn't even be a topic for debate, because it caused by one person who over steps their own authority, but impose their authority on others. What you feel is right to you only, because it is bias by your own feelings.
  
  A Woman should be able to do what she feels is necessary. However, it should be monitored, so as to not become an over-used tool for abuse or tolerate someone using as a birth control system, as some people fear.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It most certainly is.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So if a woman goes to work and is in a particularly bad mood and feels it's necessary to chop her boss to pieces with a knife, that's her choice and no one has the right to tell her what to do with her body. Maybe the boss was 'inconvenient,' maybe she wasn't 'ready' for a bad performance review, or maybe she wouldn't give her a raise and so that woman couldn't 'afford' to let the boss live. Who knows? It's her choice, dammit.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Do you have morals? Do you know what they are?
  
  Come on, let's keep it real shall we. Each person can tell the difference between what is wrong and what is right. If you can't, then I would say listen to your conscience more often.
  
  To tear apart humanity's short-comings doesn't negate individuality or the right to life of the woman, or her right to choice.
  
  Imposing on her freedom of right of choice, you diminish her value. Giving her the freedom to choose, allows each person to define their own life. You strip that away, then you might as well throw away the Constitution and everything it stands for.
  
  Not you, and not anyone else, including government, should be allowed to dictate what or how someone is suppose to live. If you think they should? Then you are morally wrong. If you think she keeps her freedom, and is allowed to make her own choice, then you understand right of choice.
  
  Again, ABORTION shouldn't even be a topic for the public to debate about. It's advocate groups who are pointing out the worse of humanity's atrocities, so as to inflame public opinion.
  
  Please see this attempt of business' influence on society and the destructive nature it is having on individual rights. It is literally stripping individual of their right of choice, yet many stand by and let it happen.
  
  And, just to let you know Tksensei- I'm not trying to offend you. I'm making a point, to talk to everyone who is reading the forum. I not directly talking to anyone. I used what you said, for the precursor of my statement. Abortion shouldn't be a topic of public concern.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, well, now we're going to talk of morals, are we? That should work out nicely for those trying to justify taking the most innocent and vulnerable human life.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Don't talk to me about life. I know more about than you could imagine.
  
  My point is freedom to live one's own life. The right to life and the right of choice.
  
  Because, that is what abortion is really about. It's about other people imposing their own set of moral standards on others. It's not about anything else.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why not?
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Are you religious?
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Do I need to be to talk about life?
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, if you are religious or have any form of religious belief, then your vision will be skewed.
  
  That's why I asked.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's a separate topic (and one on which you are also confused, I reckon)
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There is no confusion.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Great. Go to the religion forum and tell the atheists all about it.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That is incorrect.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Would that it were so.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why? You can't?
  
  I can tell what's right and what's wrong. My conscience tells me.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Some people don't listen so well. What happens when two people both insist they are listening to their conscience but come to opposite conclusions?
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You have one person who doesn't have all the facts.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, now it's about the 'facts.' I see...
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Some people dont listen.
  
  That is really funny.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So don't get in her way when she 'chooses' to chop her boss to pieces. That would be 'immoral.'
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Stop being foolish and taking it to an extreme. It makes you sound paranoid.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It is exactly on topic. You said morals are absolute, so they should apply uniformly.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You're now playing on words. I don't like game players. If you want to continue this discussion, then stop interpreting my words.
  
  Morals are absolutes. The problem is no one realizes what exactly morals are, because of religious ethics for living, which is where a humankind formed it's own ethics from.
  
  People are told there are no moral absolutes, so that they are confused about what's right and what's wrong.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Taking words at face value is not "playing."
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But that is exactly how discussion works.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Interpretation is not how a discussion works, that's how arguments get started. But, nice try.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Of course it is. In fact, that is exactly how language itself works.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Except you?
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Except about 10% of the population of the World.
  
  Does everything have to be spelled out for you?
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL!
  
  And how exactly did you come up with that figure?
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But you are not, right?
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not confused on how my conscience works if that's what you mean?
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But you said morals are absolute, right?
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It most certainly should.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It invades an individual personal space and it's not to be a concern of others.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So does every law. Go live on an unihabited island if you want unrestricted personal space.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  When you think you have the right to TELL ME what I can or cannot DO with my own personal body....I'm going to tell you that you are invading my personal space.
  
  GOT IT!
  
  No one is an authority of ME. I am my own authority. I answer to myself. And, you don't have the right to dictate how someone else is to live their life. I'm sorry- that's morally wrong.
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  A Texanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  aren't those the laws you are subject to on a daily basis?
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't break any of my own Laws, therefore I can't break any laws for which are imposed to govern me.
  
  I hold myself to a higher standard.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL! Not how it works.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Wrong.
  
  When YOU live in a SOCIETY, guess what? If you don't like it, that island is there waiting for you.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Society can co-exist with my view. It's not a problem. You stay out of my life and I'll stay out of yours. Your skewed vision continues to blind you to the truth that freedoms don't have a value on them, they exist. The right to life and the right of choice must remain with an individual. What one person does with their life isn't to be a basis for society to sham the rest. It's is irrelevant if it is the majority. The majority is wrong, as a collective and over stepped their authority.
  
  And, Yes, I will fight it tooth and nail, each and every step of the way. Why? Because, that's what I do.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Also not how it works. You enjoy the benefits of living in a society by acquiescing to the rules of that society.
  
  Whether you like it or not.
  
  The island option is always there for you.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Niether one of us can do that.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You seem quite convinced that you are the keeper of "the truth." Maybe you can start a cult there on your island.
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  Captain Drywallposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Cop out. you know it, we all know it. Its a child. I saw a bumper sticker that read "how can you trust me with a child if you cant trust me with choice" Well, i guess we cant trust you can we. My twin grandkids are five also, hey doc please dont kill em.
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  A Texanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Captain Drywall? You slinging mud?
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  Mr.Harperposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think abortion is simply wrong! If you dont plan on keeping te baby then dont have sex with out precautions!
  
  Its pretty simple! I think that doctors that practise abortions in 21-28 weeks should have his liscense tanken away and banned from practising any type of medical work!
  
  Im a Christian and am 100% against abortion.
  
  LIFE begins as soon as the woman stops having her period, in the event of a miscarige then God chose not to let that LIFE continue, but I think personally that who are we to decide that babys life!
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  Frugal Fannyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Playing devil's advocate here.... except for total abstinence, birth control methods are fallible. It is still possible to get pregnant while using any of them, or even any combination of them. The chances are slimmer, but it's still possible.
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  Uninvited Writerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, let us know the next time you are pregnant...
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If a woman can make a decision to abort a pregnancy, law or no law, I think it is reasonable to trust there is a good reason, if it is illegal, it will still happen. No other law works perfect why abortion? Further, it is an issue that should not be compared in such simple terms. Some of the comments here are plain ignorant and would be more fitting in a society without electricity.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Save the creeps, kill the kids.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Deep sneako. At least you are consistent, I like that much about you.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's fine as long as you do the killing.
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  AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  While I also think that abortion that late in the pregnancy is unacceptable (not that I'm trying to leap into this debate, I promise you), the idea that life begins at conception is, well..., I mean, if Jesus didn't go into detail about this, in the Gospels, and he should be your primary authority, then I don't see how a Christian can be 100% sure on his position (and, yes, they had doctors, abortion, etc, in those days).
  
  However, when there (may be) evidence that a fetus can suffer after a certain point, then I agree there is certainly an issue here, to be sure...
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  zzronposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The fact is that an abortion stops a beating heart and that is murder, but the law says its ok.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Wrong outlook!
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Correct outlook.
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  cheaptrickposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I.M.O. From the moment of conception it is a human being,not a kangaroo or tree or anything else.When we cross the line and justify killing its a short step to including other undesired humans on the list.Where does it stop?
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Where does it stop?
  
  Well, to be honest and forthwith you about it. Again, as I said before- I understand where you're coming from. But, society isn't that civilized yet. Not to mention, everything else it effects/affects.
  
  When a civilized society finally reaches it's own atonement of morality- then a Life will be considered a Life at conception.
  
  Since, very few people understand true morals of Human Life, you can not have this debate. And, just to let you know- yes there is an absolute set standard of morals for the human race.
  
  It's the people who form their own moral judgements based on a lack of knowledge and understanding of the meaning of Life.
  
  I realize- in a civilized society- per se "perfect", abortion doesn't exist, because crimes like rape don't exist. But, I also realize the ignorance born into oneself's nature, and that's another story all together.
  
  But, in our present day society- it is the DUTY of citizens to uphold our landmarked freedoms. Again, this shouldn't even be discussed, because the right to life and the right of choice is to be given to the mother. It is for her alone to deal with and none of anyone else's business.
  
  When society evolves it's way of thinking, then abortion will be dead or non-existent. You want to help make that happen- then I suggest you help others get informed and more knowledgeable about it, so they can help themselves, should the time arrive.
  
  YOU, as a person, have no right to interfere into someone else's life. It isn't a right of yours. You, are not, an authority figure, yet you put yourself in as one. That is what's called- USURP of power at the hands of another.
  
  Think about it?
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  cheaptrickposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I understand your point of view and agree that no one has the right to tell another what to do with there own body.I was pro choice until a few days ago when I watched a medical training film on the proper abortion.
  As you know Cag,I am a marine who saw the worst things humans can do to each other.I fell apart when I saw those tiny tiny parts of a person in that tray after they vacuumed that woman's womb.I'm not saying I have the answers,I'm just saying you should have seen those tiny hands,almost like they were reaching for help.We,the human race,Failed that person...tiny little hands Cags...
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh brother, here we go again...
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Pr0metheusposted 15 years ago
Overpopulation is killing this world, and may quite possibly lead to the death of MANY MANY people.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. --Spock
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Indeed.
  
  John Stuart Mill
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  awareposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  worried about overpopulation? instead of killing a unborn child or supporting its whole sale availability. try this instead. suicide . i hear its painless
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If you're over-crowded. Move!!
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  megs78posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I guess you've never been to Canada??? We have like 2.2 people per square kilometre here. Lots of room for the masses...if you can stand the cold that is.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  We got more than that in Australia, no cold
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And no water.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  We have enough.
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  A Texanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Are you sure, should I send a jug or two?
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Should be fine
  
  If it gets bad enough I'll go back to England.
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  A Texanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  England? Man, don't drink the water there, wait, my bad thats Mexico.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  English water was fine Thanks for the correction, I can move Mexico further down my list now.
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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
Overpopulation is not a problem, and in the coming decades the exact opposite will greatly affect many nations.

None of which changes the primacy of human life.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Are you serious? Overpopulation is not a problem. How do you come to that conclusion?
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  Pr0metheusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Wow, really? I didn't know that! Thanks for telling me!
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You're welcome.
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Lisa HWposted 15 years ago
I didn't watch that program you mentioned because I didn't want even hear what the doctor had to say. To me, that's way, way, too late to ever perform an abortion. Yes, until the baby is born it's called, "a fetus"; and once it's born it's called a "newborn" or "neonate"; and it's true that being delivered too, too, early means some babies can't survive outside the womb.

As someone who had a second-trimester miscarriage, I have to say that the fact that my fetus/baby never breathed didn't make me think it had any less of a "soul" (if anyone has a soul at all); but I don't think it's about souls anyway. It's about killing a fetus/child once it has gotten to a point where it's no longer so incomplete it's a clump of cells, or else in a very, very, primitive/incomplete stage.

Besides, the thing that turned my 34-week "fetus" into a "premature baby" was nothing more than being delivered. My own view is that early, early, abortion should be legal because I think sometimes it's better to end a life early in the first trimester than allow a baby to born to a mother capable of ending its life anyway, or else a mother so ill prepared to be a mother she'll raise a child with a lifetime of psychological torment. With regard to your friend's (and a lot of people's) line about "their own body"; when I was expecting my daughter and so desperately in need of sleep, and my unborn child kept me awake because she was apparently in the mood to kick and move around, that highlighted to me the fact that my child and I were two completely different people. Of course, a mother who is capable of truly loving her child even before s/he's born respects that child enough to realize s/he is a separate little human being and not "part of her" (or else something comparable to an inconvenient tumor).

Second-trimester abortion isn't the way to deal with any over-population problem; besides, what will "kill the world" is more likely increasing lack of respect for life. "Better we all die with clean hands than live in a world full of people with blood on theirs." - Me. (Let's not forget that Spock is make-believe, and his creator dealt in fiction and fantasy.)
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Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago
The Spock line was taken from John Stuart Mill. Its not a star trek creation.

I hear what you are saying and I do not wish to mock your personal story but it is that, a personal story. The ethics of overpopulation is a far greater issue than singular life.
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  AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not sure I'm on board here, I have to say. Overpopulation is occurring exactly in places where clinical abortions are a pipedream, where, heck *clinics* of *any* kind are a pipedream.
  
  In any case, I am not sure any development economist has ever seriously suggested abortion as an appropriate response to the overpopulation issue...
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  A Texanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No it isn't!
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  Pr0metheusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hey cool, I didn't know that. Thanks bovine.
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Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago
P.S. that was sarcasm. I am pro abortion.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The same here
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habeeposted 15 years ago
Lisa, I'm so sorry you went through that.

I'm against abortion in general, but especially abortions performed after the first trimester. It doesn't seem as cruel to abort a clump of cells as it does a fully formed tiny human who can move and react to his environment.
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  Lisa HWposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Habee, thanks. It was all ages ago (which is why I pretty much talk about it as if it's nothing more than talking about a loaf of bread or the weather). I'm not above bringing up life experiences to make a point, though. (May as well get some use out of them. )
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cosetteposted 15 years ago
from the time my son was the size of the period at the end of this sentence, i adored him and protected him and he was definitely a child to me.

that being said, a woman should have the right to choose instead of being forced to give birth to a child she does not want. HOWEVER, i think women should not abuse this and have like one abortion after another, and i certainly cannot condone partial-birth abortions or anything like that unless the mother's life is in imminent danger and there is no other recourse.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If she doesn't want to/can't raise the child there are options, but taking away the life of the child should not be one of them.
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B.C. BOUTIQUEposted 15 years ago
oce an egg is fertilized, it is a child..its alive ..and a fetus is a child..I won't debate this topic, I get touchy on this subject..

If you don't use protection its your fault you made a new life..and even if you did use it and that life was made..it has to be for a reason..
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  AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This is a one-size-fits all statement (not that I have a fixed view on the matter, frankly, as it is a very difficult one, I think).
  
  For me, abortion early on may or may not be acceptable, but I do think abortion late in the game (of pregnancy, not that it's a game, I know, I know) is a dicey proposition, and not one I'm comfortable with
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  B.C. BOUTIQUEposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  and I respect your views on this because we are all entitled to have our own views, thoughts and oppinions on each and evry possible subject, no matter how touchy the subject is, out there..
  
  My answer is influenced by the fact that I had a partial hysterectomy from cancer at 18..and I got pregnant at 16 while on birth contrl and the father of the child was wearing a condom..so that life was made for a purpose at that time..because I did not know that 2 years later I would lose my chances of having more children...
  
  So thank you for not being judgemental and respecting everyone's answer...this is a right we are entitled to, freedom of choice..no matter how we choose to make any decision or choose to feel a way about a certain issue..
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  AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  In Canada (where I am) in the eighties (the law has changed), I think that the procedure was that a panel from the hospital, made up of doctors, and the mother, decided on a case by case system.
  
  Of course this is a lot easier in a country where health care is free. And I am not sure the father was given a say (though, I hope so, not that it should be so in every case, but often).
  
  Frankly, this seemed like a good solution.
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awareposted 15 years ago
i like your post alot b c . ill go one step further last time i checked a sperm is alive . and so is a unfertilized egg .so any debate as to when life exists to me seems futile.
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awareposted 15 years ago
humans for some reason have a very narrow view of life. i dont tho i see life big
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awareposted 15 years ago
cosette your talking the exceptions not the rule. the #1 reason abortions are carried out worldwide is gender. girls die boys live . the rape excuse is fubar
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Aya Katzposted 15 years ago
Female infanticide leads to a shortage of women and hence polyandry. So things have a way of correcting themselves.

But in the less developed parts of the world, don't they wait until after the birth to determine the sex of the child?
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awareposted 15 years ago
if it were a mans right to chosse this man wouldnt want that right or support it. i find it odd that women who would never have a abortion still fight for other women to have it
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Aya Katzposted 15 years ago
The right to choose includes the right to choose not to do it. It's only when the choice is present that a woman can choose to reject it.
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awareposted 15 years ago
what about my rights the father ? you know the guy that is held responsible for the child if the woman has it?
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  Aya Katzposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's a good point. I know I am in the minority in this, but I don't support the practice of holding a man who did not choose to become a father responsible for child support.
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TMinutposted 15 years ago
QUOTE:
what about my rights the father ? you know the guy that is held responsible for the child if the woman has it?
-------------------
The man DID choose to become a father if he had sex.
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  Aya Katzposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  He may have been told that she was on the pill. He may have been told that she was infertile.
  
  Many more women want children than men. Most women want children so badly they will do almost anything to have them.
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  awareposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  that being true the father should have the right just as the woman does to choose not to .
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TMinutposted 15 years ago
Still he took that chance, just like she did.
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  Aya Katzposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  When two people have sex, they take a lot of chances, including that they will get a STD. There is an obligation to the other person of full disclosure. If someone has a STD, but assures the other that it is safe, then he is responsible for transmitting the disease.
  
  If someone is fertile but pretends not to be in order to trick another into a parental obligation, there should be some recourse, too.
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TMinutposted 15 years ago
Yes, people can be sickening. I still think the babies should live and the criminals should be killed off. A baby may turn out to be a psycho but there's still that (hopefully) more likely chance that it will be normal.
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  B.C. BOUTIQUEposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I second what you just said..I feel the exact same way.
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cosetteposted 15 years ago
i agree, the father should have some say-so, i mean, what is he really wants the baby?

but what if she doesn't? can he force her to carry it to term? hmm i wonder if anything like this has ever happened.
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  AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Has to be case-by-case -- by which I mean, (and I guess this is so obvious it's hardly worth saying), rapists don't get to have rights...
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  awareposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  my opinions on this subject stem from this . i have two grown sons i would have had a third but after 10 years of marriage when my now x wife got pregnant with my third child . her wanting a divorce , not another baby,without my consent or knowledge murdered my child. and the law supported this act.if your pro choice you are complicit to this . how do you feel? knowing this?
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  Aya Katzposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Aware, I'm sorry for your loss. If you were still married, then you should have had a say in the matter.
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  awareposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  we were still married
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  B.C. BOUTIQUEposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hearing your situation makes me feel horrible, it brought a tear, well more than one, to my eye..
  You deserved to have say over that child..it was yours too..divorce or not, you would of cared for that cchild ( no doubt in my mind ) ...she is an evil, dark person for what she has done to you...sorry, I had to butt in after reading this
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  cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  of course she should have told you. are you trying to make me feel guilty for something your wife did? i wouldn't do anything like that.
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SparklingJewelposted 15 years ago
Every soul has a right to life...the soul is present from conception on...even if the pregnancy was an accident and/or not wanted, that soul has the RIGHT to a chance at life. There are many people out there that would adopt a baby.

It is only a excuse of self centeredness and/or fear and lack of support that causes women/girls to abort. Rape I could understand the desire, but if the female could focus on the child's life apart from her feelings about the rape she could feel better about giving life to that soul...it could even go a long way toward her healing from the rape.

If people were taught from day one a respect for the process of life, they would choose better how to deal with their sexuality, sex lives, and partners...but as long as sex is only looked upon as a means of power over another, male or female, it is not a psychologically healthy situation to begin with.
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  AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There is abundant controversy among people from all over the world of many different faiths as to when the sould enters the body (assuming there is a soul, of course).
  
  One thing's for sure, I am not sure this is the grounds on which to make a decision on this matter -- sounds too much like Iran to me -- religious pronouncements from state authorities: dicey stuff.
  
  A much better question would be (and is) when is a fetus a person. This is much easier to deal with, as not everyone accepts the soul, and those who do argue about it, but everyone accepts that a "person," by definition, has certain rights
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  Aya Katzposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  A corporation is a legal person. It's a legal fiction just like the soul.
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  AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The difference is that a corporation *shouldn't* be a person, because that is a piece of lunacy on the level of giving rights to little green men, just in case there are any, if you ask me.
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  Aya Katzposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree that it makes no sense call a corporation a person. As for little green men, it very much depends on whether they exist or not.
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  SparklingJewelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  ]
  
  Yes, belief in the soul makes all the difference...especially to that soul! As a mother of four there is no doubt in my mind that the soul exists and is very important...it is sad when others don't recognize a soul's worth and that there are businesses making millions snuffing out the life chances of a soul.
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  AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am not denying the existence of the soul. I am saying that in a country of 300 million people, you need a point upon which everyone has to agree -- otherwise how can you have a debate at all: I think that (almost) everyone agrees that a "person" has "natural" rights. If you built a law based on a fetus having a soul, then someone could say -- well I don't believe in a soul -- but who, realistically, is going to say, "oh, but wait, I don't believe in 'persons with rights' "
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  SparklingJewelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, you have just made the ultimate point of the many aspects of the downfall of civilizations...no spiritual perception of life and the rights thereof...once upon a time people intuitively "knew" such things as moral and right...now days its all confused and "iffy" from imbalanced logic.
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B.C. BOUTIQUEposted 15 years ago
and yes, in my situation the father was given a say..and 15 yrs later he is a winderful father to his only child..

he loves his daughter, she is his main priority in life
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awareposted 15 years ago
you do know prostitution is illegal.
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awareposted 15 years ago
wheres the pro choice girls on that one?
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  Aya Katzposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There are Dr. Suess books that represent both sides of the argument. It's not an argument that can be won, but it might help each side to appreciate the position of the other.
  
  1. Pro-Life: "A peson's a person no matter how small" form Horton Hears a Who.
  
  2. Pro-Choice: "no freeloaders" Thidwick the Big-Hearted Moose
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  AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm both (I think).
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awareposted 15 years ago
or euthanasia thats illegal too. wheres the pro choice rs on that?
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thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjnJw4Oc77k
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awareposted 15 years ago
is suicide legal?
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  cocopremeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Though, I don't think suicide is ever justified, there is a difference between making the choice to take your own life and to take the life of another human being.
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  awareposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  thats my point. as it is now its ok to take the life of another but its not ok to take your own . we need to switch the oks
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awareposted 15 years ago
this is not a Dr Suess comparative.lol
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thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years ago
You have to be born to be anti-life!
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Aya Katzposted 15 years ago
Cosette, the woman you describe sounds mentally ill. Most women don't behave that way, even under very difficult circumstances.
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A Texanposted 15 years ago
Its against the law to commit suicide in Texas, I don't think there has ever been a successful prosecution of this violation of the law.
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carterchasposted 15 years ago
Until the 1830's, abortion was in widespread use. The laws were passed preventing DOCTORS from performing abortions, not women from having them.

There is no proof that the soul exists from conception. A fetus' brain waves show no human activity until the 3rd timester. You may not like it, but laws cannot be written on such conjecture as yours.

The Supreme Court ruled in Roe vs. Wade that the laws passed in the 1830s were no longer valid. Why? Because back then, Doctors would go from handling diseased people (often with some form of VD) to performing abortions. Germs were unknown as were anticeptic procedures. More women were dying from doctor performed abortions than self-induced abortions.

The final deciding factor was this: Women (who had abundant sources of money) were having abortions at hospitals with impunity. How? Because of the confidentiality rules. An abortion would be performed under the guise of another procedure.

My wife had a bad pap smear, and needed to have one of those procedures. Are you going to have a pollice officer check out every women that does?

Since you can't really investigate this, How would you enforce any abortion law?

It would be impossible.

Therefore Roe vs. Wade still stands.
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Uninvited Writerposted 15 years ago
So, how do you stop women from having abortions? Do you tie them to a bed until they give birth?
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  A Texanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hmmmm, thats how I got my ol lady pregnant,ahhh memories!
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  Uninvited Writerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  A Texanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  She doesn't come around when I have rope in my hand anymore.
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  cocopremeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, but you can make it illegal for doctors to perform abortions.
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  Uninvited Writerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh...that worked before didn't it?
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  cocopremeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  At least we wouldn't be condoning it as a society.
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  Pr0metheusposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So the life of an unborn fetus is worth more than the life of a pregnant woman?
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Are you claiming the opposite?
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  Uninvited Writerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I would hope so...
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That would be a sad commentary...
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  Uninvited Writerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So, you would rather let a woman die than her unborn child?
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Rape, incest or the life of the mother and that must be approved by an appropriate medical athority.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Is that a yes?
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  EmpressFelicityposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  In order to prove that someone's been raped or suffered incest, you'd basically have to set up a courtroom trial.
  
  Given that trials generally tend to take months rather than days, the woman would probably end up carrying the baby to term before things were resolved.
  
  Much as I dislike the idea of abortion myself, I'm afraid your suggestion doesn't wash. In a choice between two evils (unwanted child or abortion), the mother's freedom of choice should override other considerations - at least where you're talking about an abortion during the early stages of pregnancy.
  
  BTW, isn't it weird how the most vocal pro-life people are always men?
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'd rather neither of them die. Take a moment to consider why that didn't occur to you first.
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  Uninvited Writerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Of course that occurred to me. I assumed it was understood.
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  SparklingJewelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It needs to be addressed from all angles...greater education spiritual, emotional and physical from early life onward, in balanced ways, across all media...and SUPPORT, SUPPORT, SUPPORT, and more SUPPORT for her situation, so that she knows about all possible choices and can make a truly informed choice not out of fear.
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  AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hard to disagree with that, on the face of it, I must say. Unfortunately, I don't see much support out there for those in unfortunate circumstances, in general, in American society (not that I'm there, so I don't know; though God knows it must be better than in undeveloped parts of the world, of course). Well, it's complicated, no two ways about it...
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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
Of course, "you can't stop it" is an empty argument that could be applied to any crime.
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  Aya Katzposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  True. We can't stop a murder from taking place. But we can execute the murderer. Do you advocate executing all women who have ever had an abortion?
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Is execution the only punative action available for all crimes?
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  Aya Katzposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No. But if you support the death penalty for murder, and if you don't support the death penalty for abortion, then you don't really believe that abortion is murder!
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That is not correct either. Not every murder is a capital crime.
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  Aya Katzposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It would depend on the circumstances.
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  Aya Katzposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Can you elaborate?
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Aya Katzposted 15 years ago
A good start would be not to condemn.
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ralwusposted 15 years ago
I was going to comment, really I was, but I know when to keep my trap shut, so I'm leavin'. The smell of a butt sniffer is in here. Did I step in dog poo?
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melporposted 15 years ago
Once conception occur, a woman is now carrying her unborn child.
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Denno66posted 15 years ago
oh boy. I'll just grab some cookies and coffee and be on my way.
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B.C. BOUTIQUEposted 15 years ago
yeah Denno..best to stay away from this thread..I learned the hard way
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prettydarkhorseposted 15 years ago
I would only approve of abortion if the mothers life is in danger, what if she has other children and the family she will left behind, what will happen to them?

I hopw this will never happen, it is a tough choice between fetus and the mother,

as I have said as there are many reasons for abortion,
baby is due to
raped, incest, mothers life is in danger (difficult to decide in these cases)

or
not so strong reasons like
not ready financially, not ready emotionally
father is unknown
too many children
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Uninvited Writerposted 15 years ago
I find it interesting that a lot of people who are against abortion are also against birth control. More birth control=less abortions.
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  prettydarkhorseposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I totally agree with you UW, they should contracept/protect themselves in the first place so that they can avoid unwanted pregnancies
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree!
  Hi UW and Pretty !
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  prettydarkhorseposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  hi sexy pretty tantrum, wheres xtasis again? writing poem??, is she not tired writing poem always, does she go on date on weekends>
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  She just finished a poem. She doesn't go anywhere. She's far too serious.
  Not like me !
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  prettydarkhorseposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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alexandriaruthkposted 15 years ago
I am totally against abortion, life begins at conception, children are beautiful, look at mine, I have lots of them by the way,

People should use contracept to avoind being pregnant if they dont like it in the first place

if it is a result of rape or incest, mothers life is in danger then, I might have to think about it,
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sneakorocksolidposted 15 years ago
Which would you prefer to kill?
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Denno66posted 15 years ago
Why couldn't someone be Pro-Life and Pro-Choice at the same time?
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Colebabieposted 15 years ago
I think... and whoa.... don't think I'm crazy...
That it doesn't matter to me right now. If a woman is put in that scenario then she will decide. I am Pro-life in the sense that abortion should not be used as a method of birth control, should not occur late in term, shouldn't be a rash decision and should probably be followed up with some counseling. But what I think "should" happen, and what women actually do is obviously different.

Do I have strict rules? Yes, for myself. Everyone else, your opinion is YOUR opinion. And even Sarah Palin said she understands why women would consider having an abortion in particular situations. So if you aren't in someone's shoes... then you don't know. Have your opinion.
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dyonderposted 15 years ago
If I were a woman I would disagree with abortion; but I'm not, I'm a man. I have absolutely no right to tell a woman what to do with her body. It is her choice. It's my choice whether to have sex with a woman, possibly impregnating her. After that initial mutual choice we can talk about the fetus (potential child), but the choice of continuing its life is truly, and always has been, the woman's. It is physically part of her body for roughly 9 months. I can only empathize during that time.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So, you couldn't sit on a jury (regardless of the crime) if the defendant were a woman? If you were a police officer you could never arrest a woman? If you came across a woman beating an elderly person in the street you would pretend not to see it and walk away?
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  dyonderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You make some very curious assumptions. They are quite revealing.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nice use of the word revealing.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Is that a 'yes'?
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  dyonderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Rather then picking the bits of a statement you like to make a point with, it's best to read the entire thing; perhaps understand the context. There is no comparison between the acts. Does a person disagree with war because they don't like killing? Does a person kill themselves because a member of our species commits atrocities? Humans are much too complicated in all of their attitudes, morals, philosophies, and personal experiences for black and white to do anything but deceive and promote ignorance. Rather than attempt to force others to abide by a personal code that is not theirs, try for a moment to learn.
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  tksenseiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Still no answer to my question. I guess we CAN tell women what they can do with their bodies in some cases but not others. Seems like in every other instance where what they do with their bodies causes the death of another person it's ok to have rules, but...
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  dyonderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You don't read very well do you. As I said 'There is no comparison between the acts.' If you ask a valid question I will answer it.
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TMinutposted 15 years ago
To me telling a woman it's her choice to kill off a child because her body is involved is like telling a man it's his choice to rape a woman because it's his body to do with as he pleases. It's NOT just the woman's body involved while carrying an as-yet unborn child any more than just his body involved in a rape.
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megs78posted 15 years ago
Well, I have to say that if you've never been there, you just can't know. But even if you do what you think is the only right thing you can do when faced with a decision like that, you are often faced with horrible, life-altering consequences afterward.

Abortion is a horrible, dark, immensely difficult subject to get into and I honestly believe that if you've never been there, don't judge.

I don't think its the best way to go, guilt is a hard thing to deal with...and thats all I got to say about that.
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Abortion is a contradiction of life. How do you teach children morals that it's wrong to kill when they see abortion being legal killing? Do you lie and tell them the baby wasn't alive yet?
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tksenseiposted 15 years ago
You don't want to see a comparison because you cannot balance that equation.
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