When the Jews rebelled against the Roman Empire in AD 70, Titus the emperor destroyed Jerusalem. From then the Jews stood apart from other peoples in two important aspects. One was that in general they did not intermarry and assimilate with the other peoples of the region. The other was their religious genius which produced the first of three great monotheistic faiths. The Ten Commandments and the Judaic legal code which derives from them were by far the highest system of morality to be developed by mankind.Jews regarded themselves as a distinctive people, specially chosen by God.
In 1914, nearly 2000 years since the last failure to restore Jewish independence in Palestine; the idea of mass return of Jews in the world of Palestine was conceived. It was being advanced by ‘practical Zionists’. At the time there were80,000 estimated Jews as compared to 650,000 Arabs.
The concept of ‘political Zionism’ was to turn Palestine into a Jewish state and this was pioneered by a prominent Austrian political journalist Theodor Herzl.
August 1947 a majority report of a UN Special Commission on Palestine (UNSCOP) recommended the partition of Palestine in to Arab and Jewish states, which would be economically unified with Jerusalem and its environs to be international.By a vote of 33 to 13 with 10 abstentions, these recommendations were substantially adopted by the UN General Assembly in its Resolution 181 of November 29th 1947. This resolution was passed because both the USA and the Soviet Union which then dominated the UN, voted in favor.A proposal to question the International Court of Justice on the competence of the General Assembly to partition a country against the wishes of the majority of its inhabitants (at the time there were 1,269, 000 Arabs and 678,000 Jews) was narrowly defeated.
On 26th March 1979, The Treaty of Washington was signed bringing an end of a thirty-one years state war between Israel and Egypt. However, on 30th July 1979 Israel declared the whole of Jerusalem including Arab Eastern part as a United and eternal capital of Israel. In June 1980 the members of the European Community issued what was called the Venice Declaration, in which they said that the PLO should be ‘associated’ but as long as United States held 99% of the cards in Middle East, Israel could ignore this.
The utterances of Israel's prime minister to constuct 1,600 homes in a Palestinean territory only exhibit the arrogance and intolerancy of the Israel Government. If the United States came to the rescue of the Kuwaitees when they were being invaded by Saddam's Iraq, why can't the U.S come to the rescue of the homeless Palestineans?
On May 14, 1948, a mistake was committed when Britain handed over its mandate and declared Israel an independent state with no proposals on how Palestine was to be partitioned. Israel became a nation with no geograghical nor political boundaries. Until such anomaly is rectified, peace will only be a rhetoric in the Middle-East and Israel itself.
Governments are synonymous with business. Hardly anything divides them. If there is no economic or political interest governments may give lip service but will not move a finger to help.
Israel is a state like any other. No worse or better. They struggle to survive as any other state does. Their circumstances are different and therefore react in accord with them......greed and self-interest are the only "bad" states (of mind)..and we are all at fault here.
I completely agree with your post. It is all about the money Israel spends in defense weapons, with the Americans. It is the only reasoning I can see, to allowing the genocide of so many Palestinian Muslims.
Israel's crimes against humanity since 1948, should not be allowed to continue on. It is time for the USA to wash their hands of Israel, and find some other country to sell our over priced weapons too.
The misuse of the word 'genocide' is inappropriate
How do you figure it is misused? I don't think it is. I also think there is plenty of data to prove my point. However, why do you think it is a misuse of words. Do you approve of the mass murdering of innocent Muslims, at the hands of Jewish Israelites?
How do you define genocide? And could you provide the data to prove your point?
And is it murder to fight back against a group of people who constantly attack you?
As defined by the United States Muesum on Holocaust victims. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php … d=10007043
And I quote, "The term "genocide" did not exist before 1944. It is a very specific term, referring to violent crimes committed against groups with the intent to destroy the existence of the group. Human rights, as laid out in the U.S. Bill of Rights or the 1948 United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, concern the rights of individuals.
In 1944, a Polish-Jewish lawyer named Raphael Lemkin formed the word "genocide" by combining geno-, from the Greek word for race or tribe, with -cide, from the Latin word for killing.
In proposing this new term, Lemkin had in mind "a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves."
The next year, the International Military Tribunal held at Nuremberg, Germany, charged top Nazis with "crimes against humanity." The word “genocide” was included in the indictment, but as a descriptive, not legal, term.
On December 9, 1948, in the shadow of the Holocaust and in no small part due to the tireless efforts of Lemkin himself, the United Nations approved the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This convention establishes "genocide” as an international crime, which signatory nations “undertake to prevent and punish.” It defines genocide as:
Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."-end quote
Seriously. So now I'm curious as how do YOU define genocide?
And again Sab Oh... I've provided you proof, to your assumptions. Always arguing with people based solely off your assumptions, is a childish way to debate.
Typical. I was hoping for more from you. How silly of me.
Thank you for providing this, I like reading data/facts. My personal definition of genocide is the purposeful and systematic eratication of a group of people.
Personally I don't really know what to think of the Israeli and Palestinian conflict. I have trouble saying whether or not it is a genocide because I can view it from so many different angles.
Well that is at least a valid point.
However, for me the evidence is quite clear. It is systematic genocide.
You really should read the Baltimore Chronicle article in its entirety. Their stats, maps, and provided information on the subject matter, is amazing and yet very tragic.
The " the intent to destroy the existence of the group" comes from the Hamas side of this issue, not the Israeli. It is part of their founding charter!
To also provide you the data you seek,
Baltimore Chronicle no less, and I quote,"BLATANT CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR CONTINUES...
Israel's Slow-Motion Genocide in Occupied Palestine
by Stephen Lendman
Wednesday, 26 November 2008
Israel's Slow-Motion Genocide in Occupied Palestine
"Israel is a serial human rights international law abuser. The UN Human Rights Commission affirms that it violates nearly all 149 articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention that governs the treatment of civilians in war and under occupation and is guilty of grievous war crimes.
Imagine life under these conditions:
Living in limbo under a foreign occupier. Having no self-determination, no right of return, and no power over your daily life. Being in constant fear, economically strangled, and collectively punished.
Having your free movement denied by enclosed population centers, closed borders, regular curfews, roadblocks, checkpoints, electric fences, and separation walls. Having your homes regularly demolished and land systematically stolen to build settlements for encroachers in violation of international law prohibiting an occupier from settling its population on conquered land.
Having your right to essential services denied - to emergency health care, education, employment, and enough food and clean water. Being forced into extreme poverty, having your crops destroyed, and being victimized by punitive taxes. Having no right for redress in the occupier's courts under laws only protecting the occupier.
Being regularly targeted by incursions and attacks on the ground and from the air. Being willfully harassed, ethnically cleansed, arrested, incarcerated, tortured, and slaughtered on any pretext, including for your right of self-defense. Having no rights on your own land in your own country for over six decades and counting. Vilified for being Muslims and called terrorists, Jihadists, crazed Arabs, and fundamentalist extremists. Victimized by a slow-motion genocide to destroy you.
According to Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, Israel has conducted state-sponsored genocide against the Palestinians for decades and intensively in Gaza. In a September 2006 Electronic Intifada article titled "Genocide in Gaza" he wrote:
"A genocide is taking place in Gaza....An average of eight Palestinians die daily in the Israeli attacks on the Strip. Most of them are children. Hundreds are maimed, wounded and paralyzed. (It's become) a daily business, now reported (only) in the internal pages of the local press, quite often in microscopic fonts. The chief culprits are the Israeli pilots who have a field day," like shooting fish in a barrel. Why not, they're only Muslims, so who'll notice or care.
International law expert Francis Boyle does and in March 1998 proposed that "the Provisional Government of (Palestine) and its President institute legal proceedings against Israel before the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in the Hague for violating the" Genocide Convention. He stated that "Israel has indeed perpetrated the international crime of genocide against the Palestinian people (and the) lawsuit would....demonstrate that undeniable fact to the entire world."
Israel is a serial human rights international law abuser. The UN Human Rights Commission affirms that it violates nearly all 149 articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention that governs the treatment of civilians in war and under occupation and is guilty of grievous war crimes. The Commission also determined that as an occupying power Israel has committed crimes against humanity as defined under the 1945 Nuremberg Charter.
Geneva, Nuremberg and other international human rights laws guarantee what Article 3 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states: that everyone "has the right to life, liberty and security of person." Article 6 (1) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights also affirms it in saying that every "human being has the inherent right to life." Official Israeli policy is to deny it to Palestinians under occupation, especially Gazans under siege.
On November 5, it was egregiously tightened after Israel closed all commercial crossings and banned virtually all permissible items - previously severely restricted and in limited amounts.
On November 21, Haaretz reported that Karen AbuZayd, United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) commissioner-general said Gaza faces a humanitarian "catastrophe" if Israel maintains its blockade. She called the current closure the gravest since the early days of the Second Intifada eight years ago. "It's been closed for so much longer than ever before....and we have nothing in our warehouses....It will be a catastrophe if this persists, a disaster."
Out of Gaza's 1.5 million population, UNRWA provides vitally needed rations for 820,000 of its refugees, and the UN World Food Program aids another 200,000 people. They supply about 60% of daily needs, now effectively shut off and nearly exhausted - including food, medicines, fuel, and other basic essentials."- end quote
For more on this article go to http://baltimorechronicle.com/2008/112608Lendman.shtml
All the palastinians have to do is kick out the bad actors and the crsis will end. They don't want it to end, they want Israel gone, period!
All through the history of man countries have been conquered and land taken this is no different except Israel has made concession after concession and nothing changes. They would be better off if they just took Gaza, the West Bank, the Sinai and the Golan Heights back and evicted the palestinians. Then lets see how much help they get from their arab brothers. As long as they're attacking Israel they're united but they are cowards, murders, and thieves. They deserve the same kind of treatment they dish out.
It is not now nor has it ever been the policy or the goal of Israel to systematically eleminate all Muslims, all Palestinians, or even one Palestinian for the fact of his or her being Palestinian.
Words have meanings.
Hamas, on the other hand, still refuses to go even so far as to say they recognize Israel's right to exist and their founding charter calls for Israel's destruction.
What makes you so sure? Where is your proof to your argument. Words do have meaning Sab Oh, so where is your proof of having first hand knowledge and information of Israels intentions?
I just told you that the founding charter of Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel and Hamas still does not unconditionally recognize the right of Israel to exist. How much clearer can it be?
Successive Israeli leaders have declared again and again their desire for peaceful coexistence and their 'negotiating partners' still refuse to so much as recognize Israel's right to exist.
What part don't you understand?
What part don't you understand?
You do realize that Jews called for the destruction of Hitler and the Nazi's?
Your argument is severely flawed. Again, debating issues such as this takes an educational foresight. Assumptions and opinions don't count. Why are you commenting anyway. YOU are Banned! No matter if you changed your name of not. You are still banned!
Tksensei/Sa Oh never stops being controversial. Has quite a bit of time on his hands with his wife working and paying all the bills.
Yeah I know. But I thought I would try.
As I said, how silly of me.
Anyways I thought TkS was permanently banned. The Hubpages.com team would not appreciate the deception.
Numerous people have pointed out he is TK. A friend alerted me to this last week when he was posting all that stuff in the other thread. I do not care really, but he has a lot of time on his hands.
My dear friend calls him Sparky. Well....., no matter the man only seems to be able to debate a topic without intelligence and educational dialog. It is always nothing but opinions and assumptions. Which can misconstrued into bias lies.
Sab OH, you a lawyer when your wife isn't paying your bills?
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that after 60ty years of Genocide against the Palestinians that Hamas would call from Israels destruction.
Case in point, YOU calling for Lita's destruction.
"They watched while Israeli Prime Ministers said they didn’t exist – “there are no Palestinians”, announced Golda Meir – or described them as animals: Menachem Begin called them “beasts walking on two legs”, while Yitzhak Shamir said they should be “crushed like grasshoppers… heads smashed against the boulders and walls.” They tried peacefully resisting, launching a programme of sit-downs and civil disobedience. Yitzhak Rabin responded by ordering the occupying Israeli army to “break their bones.” After decades of this treatment, they fought back with violence – some of it targeted horribly and unacceptably at Israeli civilians. And so today – with the active support of the governments of the Western world – the Palestinians live in a permanent military headlock."
I'd say there was a systematic attempt to get rid of Palestinians....they're in the way.
Israel wants their land. They even pay settlers to move there...with OUR money.
Open your eyes.
Consider this: Without Israel, Iran overruns the region and takes all the regions oil reserves and uses the wealth from the oil to produce URANIUM for weapons use, inflames the whole nation of Islam around the world and to finance terrorism in all free world countries. Israel serves the US well by fighting and dying to keep the barbarians at bay. If Israel enlarges it's settlements it is for it's own self defense and survival. The Palestinians that would settle there would only be Hamas operatives on Israel's doorstep. Palestine is being held captive by the Arab combatants who only use the Palestinian population as shields to bomb Israel.
If we sell them weapons good.
Their research and development in battle improves the weapons and warfare techniques to use against our enemies which are the same bastards trying to blow us all up! Read some responsible literature written by people who know what they are talking about. Read Understand and THINK I don't mean to be hostile but it's a very serious threat against Israel from Lebanon since the Hamas is entrenched there.
Go educate yourself better, evolution.
bad state?...there is no such state as good or bad..states are run keeping in view of what is good for its people and not what is good or bad for the world...
Hi Pisean! If states are meant only to carter for the good of their people, then how are international protocols going to be implimented? Are you suggesting that we can actually have 'Island states' with no interractions whatsoever? I pray that you address yourself to the natural law of "live and let-live." We can practically co-exist. What do you think?
Good or bad are perhaps not really right words. Failed and successful states may be more appropriate. International protocols or history- how a state was created may have some importance but best measure of failure or success is, what type life is being provided to citizens of a state. A minimal life style to family members of every working person may be perhaps the main measure for seeing success of a state (food, shelter, good infra structure for communication, transport, security, sufficient relaxation and enjoyment time and capacity, less crime have to be included in minimal life style) . By this measure states like USA, UK, Japan, countries in Western Europe do have sufficient success. States like Singapore, Israel are not too far behind.
There are several states who have to do a lot more to reach a reasonable success level One has to be only careful about states which are not only not so near this measure of success but use terrorism or wars as means to create chaotic situations in other states too. I will rather not name these states. But Israel does certainly not fall into such a state. Its place is closure towards a successful state.
my friend what i was trying to say can be understood from your question itself -'why can't the U.S come to the rescue of the homeless Palestineans?'
nations see their self interest first and all other things like right , wrong , morals come later...
yes principally you are 100% right and for better world we need to strive on live and let life way because that is only possibility for better world...
'why can't the U.S come to the rescue of the homeless Palestineans?'
I wonder why their brothers in faith in neighboring countries can't come to their rescue in the form of allowing them to cross their borders and receive aid? Could it be that the principle of pan-Islamism takes a back seat to the politically useful plight of the Palestinian people?
Talk about getting it from both sides...
ya think jesus' descendants would be the most diplomatic people on the planet.but infact they are the most ruthless and we are helping them(what a shame) if isreal mattered so much to them i would not have been raised in a jewish neighborhood in detroit nor been able to have gone to a jewish high school.
well ok but why are we helping them do what is "clearly"wrong
well that speaks loads sab oh. bad to anyone not psychopatic
So anyone who disagrees with you is a psychopath? That's a logical position...
no anyone who doesn't know the difference between right and wrong sab oh is a psychopath. when you kill and starve men,women and children for "Their" land,IT IS WRONG! tell ya what. go get one of your rifles and start shooting up and killing your neighbors. when the authorities come to take you away, tell them that the lord told you could have it. see what they tell you, you are!(PYSCHOPATHIC) next see if they give you money to buy more rifles to kill more people. . . .no they won't. but, we do to isreal!
"no anyone who doesn't know the difference between right and wrong sab oh is a psychopath. "
So, anyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong and also a psycopath. That's some sharp thinking right there.
It's nice that you have a simple and indisputable judgement about right and wrong in this age old conflict as well. How comforting.
And when did I ever say I had rifles? Calm down and think a little.
Back off the liberal koolaid! You are way off base! First get a grip and ask someone to help you understand world events. Then when you actually have the facts then form an opinion. Don't form an opinion then ignore the facts.
sab oh -since it appears that you speak always from a reverse logic position and logical things don't penetrate. so now i will spell it out to you
"They watched while Israeli Prime Ministers said they didn’t exist – “there are no Palestinians”, announced Golda Meir – or described them as animals(bad sign#1): Menachem Begin called them “beasts walking on two legs”(SOUNDS LIKE RASCISM), while Yitzhak Shamir said they should be “crushed like grasshoppers… heads smashed against the boulders and walls(SIGNS OF A PSYCHOPATH).” They tried peacefully resisting, launching a programme of sit-downs and civil disobedience. Yitzhak Rabin responded by ordering the occupying Israeli army to “break their bones(LOOKS LIKE HATRED).” After decades of this treatment, they fought back with violence – some of it targeted horribly and unacceptably at Israeli civilians. And so today – with the active support of the governments of the Western world – the Palestinians live in a permanent military headlock."
--Johann Hari And these are jesus' descendants(thou shalt not steal,thou shalt not kill and love thy neighbor as thy self) nothing but sadness!
And the predictable appeal to emotion. Now do we list some outrageous remarks by people on the other side? Remarks about all Jews and not just Israelis in contrast to those remarks you quoted that were about terrorists among the Palestinians? Is that how we resolve a complex issue like this?
Go to the aide of Palestineans? Have you forgotten the way they have treated those of Israel even from ancient times?
Here's one of many links to discussion of the Venice Declaration, and in none that I scanned did I note that Israel was directed to ignore it, though later the Saudis apparently objected, and the inference is clear that the USA did not want to irritate the Saudis. Palestine was to be recognized as a State under this declaration, not sure what you mean by 'associated'.
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-of … /13205.htm
There are many other pertinent events to this discussion beyond the ones you have cited, including the 'Oslo Process':
"The weakness of the Oslo approach was that it required each party to reach staged objectives before moving on to the next stage, and both sides failed to meet their mutual obligations under an agreed timetable. This resulted in the opposite of what was intended: an erosion of confidence and backward-looking, mutually blocking recriminations about what had not been fulfilled, rather than a forward-looking process based on trust. The process was also designed to lead to a mutually agreed outcome at the end, rather than reaching the clear objective of a two-state solution posited from the outset."
I suppose the point is, there is much much more that has occurred between the PA, PLO, and the Israelis. It's a big topic, a complicated discussion, and the killing has occurred on both sides of the tenuous boundaries of the Palestinians and the Israelis. Myself, I will try to understand this long-standing conflict at a greater level.
Mostly, what your post made me immediately recall is the huge demonstration/fights/shouting on my little college campus in 1979, and the two Iranians who managed the Mexican Rest. that I worked at waiting tables, left within about two weeks to return home.
It doesn't surprise me in hindsight that something such as the Venice Proclamation was accomplished in such a troubled time as the Iran Hostage Crisis.
Yes, Isreal is a bad state. They are breaking International Law on a daily basis. They have entrapped an entire people in what one commentator calls "an outdoor prison", they are stealing land, throwing children out of their homes and in my opinion, committing genocide. Murder, false imprisonment, not in leauge with nuclear treaties.....they are breaking the law, and no one says a word about it! It's incredible.
Something has to be done, because WE are the ones footing the bill. And while we cry about having no money for things at home, we are spending millions a day to help Israel strangle a people!
Did you know, while people here were losing their homes, we were helping Israeli's with low-interest loans so they could buy homes on stolen land?
It boggles the mind.
It's Zionism that is the enemy. That and the Likud party. imo.
I don't think it boggles the mind as much as it is a testament to the corrupt nature of our political agendas. Favor is bought through the Jewish lobby to control our congress and foreign policies. There is an old saying in Washington that says, "you vote against the jews, you lose".
Our politicians know it and to this day live it.
I am not against Israel existing but I believe it is time for it stand on its own without the bias support of the US.
But then again, what about the oil?
Abandon our allies. Brilliant foreign policy. Right up there with the ever-pragmatic "let's pull all forces back to the US, close the border, and stop trade with everyone!" thinking.
look, they are an allie because we back them and support them that's why. the question is. . . .why? there has to be some back door ,under the table deal that we don't know about. even so, what they do is terrible and us backing it also
The fact that you assume the allie status bestowed upon Israel is based on any real actions on their part is at best disengenuous. They act with total disregard for the peace process while demanding monetary and military support for their relationship with the US. You place this pristine image of their allie relationship with us against whom? The arab world in general or just the Palestinians.
You should really catch up on your history and current events when addressing this issue as your one line answers speak of the depth you are prepared to engage in this conversation.
In fact, while it seems clear that American administrations on both sides of the aisle are friendly towards Israel, much of what Israeli governments have done over the years has INCREASED the threat to Americans. Israeli politicians and military know damn well that their actions tend to get associated with American power, yet they often act with reckless abandon for Americans' security, even if indirectly, and by association. Some friend.
Yeah, I really need to "catch up on" your opinion.
I donot know how much oil the U.S gets from Israel. But whatever the proportions are, is it justifiable to the human loss? There is that oil craze but I want to suggest that if we stretched our minds outside 'the oil', we would come up with better options that are more environmental friendly.
Go educate yourself better, lovemychris
Suggest you read the Goldstone report about the atrocities committed by Israel in Gaza last year. That was a very stupid, criminal act. They didn't help their image either by the recent Mossad assasination in Dubai.
A hater of the Jews..are you any different?
I don't know if you are Christian or not..but if so, your English Bible says:
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
And remember if you are Christian you serve the God of Israel.
Ah Dear Deborah but what of Romans 16:18, 'For such people are not serving our Lord Christ but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.'
I didn't expect you would get it. Too bad for you but still funny for me.
Sorry, I'm not a "hater of the Jews" or of the Israelis. Many American Jews and Israelis share my views. It's a mistake for you to conflate critics of Israel's militant policies with anti-Semitism. YOu may wish to check my Hub entitled "Anti-Semitic Liberal Jews?"
There has been many atrocities committed against Israel.
They can fight back.
No, Israel is not a "bad state." If Israel were to act in a manner pleasing to many liberals (and not a few thinly veiled anti-semites) in the US, it would soon become a 'former state.' Of course, that would only please certain people just fine.
Israel exists. It doesn't matter right now in space or time how it came to be. The fact is it has been around for some decades now and has such a power base that it is not likely to ever be dismantled. People in the region need to live with the fact that it is there. Egypt has come to terms with Israel as have other countries.
Was the creation of Israel fair to all concerned? I would say no to this. The Zionist movement that created Israel dates back to the 19th Century. When Jews were driven out of Russia many of them fled into Germany where they thought they would be safe. Some turned up in Palestine as settlers. There were so few of them back then they didn't seem much of a problem. Then came WW1 and finally the years between WW1 and WW2 saw Jews escaping yet more persecution, this time from Nazi Germany. Many Jews then began to argue in concert with Jews that had been arguing this way for a while that they would never, ever be safe until they had a homeland all their own. Israel came out of all that. There was a sense of them returning to their own roots even if they hadn't been near Palestine in any great numbers for two thousand years or more.
Carving a peace with Israel won't be easy for some but it has to some day be done.
It's not only "liberals" and "anti-semites" who are against what is going on, it's Israeli Jews themselves!
Google these films "The Iron Wall, and "Occupation 101_avi"....you will see for yourself.
And it's real typical of people to use the smear of anti-semite when you argue against anything Israel does.
That way they hide their wrong-doing under victimhood.
What they are doing to Palestine is criminal.
Read up on it...you can't, it's awful beyond words.
Taking little boys out of their homes at night and bringing them to prison?
I saw a picture of one little boy- he was so scared he wet his pants.
What the H could a 10 yr old have done to deserve that?
Bulldozing down olive trees? Why? The Palestinians look on olive trees as sacred...they are some of the original Christians you know...Jesus, olive tree....
Anyway, just watch those movies please...there are legitimate, knowledgable people in them.
You know you bring out a very good point. That being that just because someone disapproves of Israel, and their criminal, genocidal tactics doesn't mean that person is a bigot or anti-semitic.
One doesn't have to hate, to see the wrongs being done over there.
What Israel has been allowed to do all these years, is criminal.
And also as lovemychris points out, there are even Israelites who feel the same way as some of us who oppose Israel's holocaust on Palestinian Muslims.
"One doesn't have to hate"
But some do anyway. Some even crow about it.
Well that maybe, and you might even be trying to associate that connection to me, however Sab Oh I do not hate anyone.
I do not hate period. Let alone dislike someone because of their religious affiliation, race, sex, creed, and ambitions.
I hate murder. As I'm sure you do.
"Well that maybe, and you might even be trying to associate that connection to me, however Sab Oh I do not hate anyone. "
Not you. Someone else here who has repeatedly ranted on and on about who is her "enemy" and who she "hates." (the list of the 'hated' includes millions of Americans, btw)
"lovemychrisposted 7 days ago
I hate Bush Cheney and Rove. Rumsfeld Wolfowitz Yoo and Rice too.How many more were there? I'm sure I'll think of them later.
Oh yeah...Libby,Delay, Pence, Boehner, Ryan, Bachmann, Palin, McCain,...geezus, it never ends!"
Stop trying to smear my words by expanding it to "millions" of Americans.
It's pin-pointed to the criminals and their butt-kissing allies from the Bushco regime.
"there are even Israelites who feel the same way as some of us who oppose Israel's holocaust on Palestinian Muslims."
The hyperbolic misuse of terms like that is highly inappropriate.
Yes, and yet again, without an argument to back up your direct poking of only MY comments.
What? I politely asked you before why you felt that way, and still no answer.
Therefore, you comments are highly inappropriate. You do not seek good active participating with me, you seek childish playground endeavors. Let us not do that.
You keep saying my terms are a misuse of words. I politely asked you earlier today, to define why you think that. I was curious about why you see it that. Because, of course I don't see it as a misuse. I see it as the truth.
However, you never want to collectively give me reasons behind your posting. You do that all the time. I do not understand why you choose to only poke, but not converse with people you feel might be wrong.
I thought you could offer me a good logical answer to why you felt my terms were misused. That is all. I don't want to converse childishly with you, I'd like to have an adult level conversation with you. Moreover, you don't seem to want to do that. Why else do you choose to ignore my direct questions?
That is what I'm talking about- you and me, mis-communicating yet again. It gets old.
If you know what the word 'genocide' means you must see that you are misusing it. Talking about The Holocaust in this context is an even greater misuse. You don't want to talk childishly so I won't assume you need to be treated childishly regarding terms whose definition you should know.
You should see this video if you believe this is not in Israels favor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynWjYHP9 … re=related
Here is another you should watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz3rMS0d … re=related
I guess Hamas are not the only ones using these tactics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXq57XK2 … re=related
You really should get your facts straight. Your bias towards the Palestinians is quite evident and your bias for the US policies for Israel is pretty transparent.
"And is it murder to fight back against a group of people who constantly attack you?"
That is a question you should ask the Israelis!
The Palestinians have been under a military occupation since 1947. And it has gotten increasingly worse and more brutal and sadistic...you can google it and find out.
And I have to tell you, it makes me laugh....
What are all these so-called Patriots in America saying now? Why are they buying all these guns? They say it is for self-defense agains Obama and the gvt, right?
Yet, they would deny the Palestinians the same right of self-defense!
Which, of course is already the case, since Palestinians are not allowed to have weapons.... In a democracy. No second amendment rights for them.
And I know you have heard of Rachel Corrie?
It's not the only place in the world where atrocities go on, but dammit--we are paying for this one! It goes on in our name.
"And I have to tell you, it makes me laugh...."
Why would you laugh about something this serious? What kind of attitude is that?
Yes, I know that the question applies to both of them. I was making a general point.
I believe that they are in a state of war.
Self-defense is not a right, in reality there are no real rights. A right is nothing more than a user defined variable.
Could you provide the source to prove that they cannot own weapons? Also, Palestinians have their own parliamentary democratic government, if they don't have weapon's rights, then you are blaming the wrong democracy.
I've heard of Rachel Corrie. What about her? I can probably guess what you're going to ask or state and my response is the actions of one man do not represent an entire nation.
Did not do an extensive search, but I know I have read the Palestinians are not allowed guns.
"There is very little the Palestinians can do to change their situation alone. They are virtually disarmed, with a few rockets and some stone-throwing kids, against the fourth most powerful army on earth. "
Will do the research tomorow!
Well if thats the case why would you pull the tail of the tiger?
Who is the tiger here? We have created a world of winners and losers, heroes and villains. The World of "tigers" has led to terrorism. Because the tiger is so strong and can not be defeated in a coventional war-fare then they resort to other means. Am not for terrorism, but to some people it has been left as the only option in order to survive. Why a tiger, can't we be zebras, live peacefully in this vast World?
Terrorism does nothing to aid in survival, in fact, judging by the wars on it, it's detrimental to survival.
We are not zebras, we are not simple brained creatures which have no thoughts beyond sex, eat, and run. We are humans and therefore we cannot live peacefully.
You're asking the wrong people. You should direct that question to the Islamic world.
Here we go again. Look it is possible for BOTH sides in an argument to be in the wrong. For crying out loud. It is wrong to send missiles from helicopters into crowded streets. It is wrong to send suicide bombers into crowded streets. It is wrong to tar all Jews as Zionists. It is wrong to assume that all Muslims or Arabs want to see a resolution to the situation that involves blood.
Muslims and Arabs as a rule want to see a resolution to the issue. Some of them use unacceptable language to describe Jews and Israelis.
Guess what, YOU don't live in Israel. Go ask some Israelis what they think! How is it any of your business. I thought you just said in another thread that conservatives were all about minding their own business and not telling others what to think and do.
Unfortunately over my 55yrs I have seen whats really taken place. I have never seen Israel just wontonly go off and attack muslims, arabs or palastinians. Its always in response to some action by their neighbors. You don't have to admit that but if you don't you're not accessing the situation correctly.
I've heard Gaza is a prison, thats a lie! There's only one side they can't have free access too, the Israel side. How come you
"Hug-a-muslims" never point out Egypt, a muslim country, controls their borders as well? Hmmmmm......not good for your arguement maybe? The Westbank only has one side? Thats odd.
Lets view another angle to this giant lie, palestinians argue for their right to live in Israel but want the Jews out of the Westbank and Gaza! Now how do we spell liberal H-i-p-o-c-r-a-s-y? Give it a rest! Your position defies all logic and has no merit, just stay put and mind your own buisness.
Palestinians are liberals? I thought you thought they were religionists.
Arab countries have done some terrible things over the last 55 years, with Israel squarely in their sights. Obviously Palestinian terrorism is also heinous.
If you actually look at the first part of my post, it says BOTH sides are wrong. You know BOTH. You know, terrorists, or countries that try to make political capital out of hatred for Israel without in fact giving a damn about Palestinians themselves.
This is well-known among those, like ourselves, who have been around for more than ten seconds, and paid attention to goings-on. A large part of the problem has always been the hypocrisy of Arab leaderships (not to mention corruption).
I don't know why you are so fixated on liberals and their hypocrisy. But either way, my post does not reflect the stereotypical position of liberals, so God knows why you are bringing it up in a response to me.
Israel has a right to exist. It has a right to live in peace. It has, literally, one of the strongest and best-equipped military machines in the world. And it has the Bomb, meaning that anyone who tried to attack it with a nuclear bomb knows what would likely await them.
They also have some brilliant people in all walks of life, not least R and D, science and technology, and so on.
In short, I am AND HAVE NOT IN THIS THREAD denying the right of Israelis to live in peace.
I am, however, saying, simply, what I have said already:
(a) It is morally wrong to shoot missiles into crowded streets
(b) It is morally wrong to send suicide bombers into crowded streets.
People who do this are in the wrong. As you put it in another thread, we all know right from wrong instinctively. These things are wrong.
Is Gaza a prison? I've never been there. Have you? (I have been to the West Bank, mind you). To repeat, I thought conservatives believed in tending to their own backyard. I thought conservatives didn't believe in meddling in others' affairs. Have you been to Israel? Even though I have, I am not presumptuous enough to claim to know what Israelies want.
And finally, what about the TAX ISSUE? I thought you said today already that America should cut its military budget, and pull back and defend its borders. I thought conservatives were against gigantic tax expenditures. Israel costs you BILLIONS OF DOLLARS.
In short, your position seems muddled. Sorry but there it is.
Well lets see where do I start? Ok, supproting Israel, we have no choice since we can't seem to close our own borders. It will always be better to fight on their land than on ours, remember 9-11? Isreal is surrounded by enemies and they support our interests in that area of the world and since we can't seem to mind our own buisness we have to support those who support us. I don't remember the first or last time Israel blew up something of ours. Now if you can tell the islam-o-nazis to wear uniforms and take their fight a way from civilians the missle issue would be a valid point. That said, we both know they are liars and cowards and they reap what they sow.
The true and most obvious show of friendship came when iraq was sending scuds into Israel and we asked them to sit tight and let us handle it. They're people were dying and they didn't budge and if you have any respect for them as a people you have to respect them for that!
Israel has supported our interests, and we have given them billions of $ every year for a long time. Recently, the settlements and Israel's brutal treatment of Palestinians have served to motivate terrorism against the United States and European countries perceived by fundamentalist Arabs as siding with Israel against Palestine.
There is truth to your arguement but our interests are better served siding with Israel considering the alternative. I still say pull back and protect only America. Thats really where our interests are.
But Palestinians breaking all the Treatise is OK, even though Israel kept their agreement for a long time.
Your ancestors must be Palestinians.
Yeh, because we all only support our ancestors. As has been said countless times on this thread, doesn't it really, honestly look like factions on BOTH sides don't really want peace?
How about we go ask the eight year old girls on both sides if they want to see their big brothers die for no good reason. Or if they want to see their parents killed by a missile, whether from Hamas or from the IDF.
This is my theory of war: if the eight year old girls are against it, then it is a bad thing. (I may sound like I'm being sardonic, but I am not. Children have rights too... arguably their rights are MORE important than those of adults: and definitely than those of politicians).
And yet you accused Sab of getting into conversations between others. Do you have double standards? I mean after all I wasn't addressing you.
I don't allow eight year old girls to make decisions for me.
There is a time for war.
Hebrews lived in that land a long time ago and when the Palestinians came in and killed the Hebrews even their children and took the land away..was that OK?
Killing people's children is not ok no.
You disagree, I take it, that it is good and right to consider the lives of little girls, and their inalienable rights to peaceful existence (indeed, to the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness). I am including Jewish children here, incidentally (and I hope, obviously).
Israel existed from about 1000 BC (depending how you define things) up until 722 BC, when the Assyrians destroyed it. It was continuously occupied for thousands of years before that. But it is unclear whether the Israelites/Hebrews were descendants of those people, or migrants (c. 1200 BC).
Cyrus of Persia allowed Jews to return to the region from their exile in Babylon in the 500's BC. At this point the Temple was rebuilt in Jerusalem. In due course the Greeks invaded, but were expulsed a couple of hundred years before Jesus' time, at which point a Jewish state was re-established. In 70 AD the Romans destroyed the Jewish community, more or less. It grew again as of the nineteenth century.
Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and Romans came in and took away the land from the Israelites, Judahites, and Jews (depending on the period), but the Palestinians didn't do this...
Be that as it may, for the umpteenth time, BOTH sides are in the wrong for perpetrating violence against innocents and continuing to seek warlike means to ending the conflict. BOTH sides... not EVERYONE on both sides, but factions on BOTH sides.
I just gave two links to educate yourself on it. The Hebrews know where they came from, even if it's not clear to you.
It's also not good to kill the Hebrew children and drive them from their homes.
Wherever you live, if someone came in and tried to push out your people you would fight to keep it and don't say you wouldn't.
It's easy to criticize others when you obviously don't see them as human.
I'd be interested to know which of us two has Jewish ancestry (by which I mean parentage)
My husband is Hebrew however I would side with them because they are in the right even if I had never met my husband. I have been siding with them for many years.
Are you Christian or something?
Dang, you've just laid out the essence of the liberal's anti- conservative platform for at least the next couple years. Good job, quite insightful, especially considering your credentials.
And, considering your credentials, I'm surprised you only look at the conflict between Israel and Palestine as something from the last century to resolve. After all, the battle over the Holy Land and the outlying areas dates back for quite a long time, it's not a new argument or fight for Europeans or Jews or Muslims or even Americans, who are of course even today mostly Europeans by heritage.
Not all Americans can back track their ancestry to the 1600's with specificity, they couldn't always afford paper, or pen, or to have their children schooled, or perhaps a pestilence killed their elders before their heritage could be passed on -- but then they don't need that historical specificity to be an American with an heritable gut instinct for survival and rightness.
Who do you percieve as seeing another as 'not human'? Not an American, and that is for certain.
What is this suppose to mean?
I didn't say the conflict was from the last century. It went back to Biblical days...that was my argument. Or did you miss it.
Try to understand what someone is saying before attacking.
Not seeing them as human? Apparently I was speaking to someone besides you.
Hey! I didn't attack anyone. Just checked back and I'm fairly sure, I am getting kind of old and blind, but I'm fairly sure you accused someone of not seeing others as human, maybe it was another contributor, if so, my bad for correlating that same sentiment to modern politics of the day in America.
As well, I had intended to insert quotes from a couple other posts, and just plain forgot before I hit submit. So you are right, I was not addressing you throughout that post.
I only see Americans as human?
I have family that is Hebrew, Greek, Irish, English, Dutch, Latin, Prussian and they are all human.
How well you DON'T know me.
I agree with everything you just wrote, except "even if it's not clear to you."
I indeed would expect any people to fight back, including Jews, which they did against the Greeks, successfully, and against the Romans, unfortunately unsuccessfully (if nobly, by all accounts).
But this is also why I am not surprised that the Palestinians do it. I did not say I SUPPORT the Palestinians doing this, mind you...
Being British I have some experience of this. I can well imagine that Northern Ireland would have been granted the same autonomy Scotland has recently been granted, if the IRA had not galvanized us all in resolute resistance. In other words, violence only pisses people off, and makes them more resolute... which I think was your point also...
Exactly where on earth did you come up with that statement?
"violence only pisses people off"
That must be a real problem for a tough guy like you.
Head where sir? I mean I want to be careful I don't get my head knocked off or anything...
Nope. My ancestors came from several different places starting in 1665 or thereabouts, others around 1850. None from Palestine.
Both Palestine and Israel engage in wrong tactics. Neither side is correct, and the smart cookies do not want to live there. Why not move to somewhere peaceful and tranquil like Hawaii or Tahiti? That is where I would go!
So I guess the same can be said of the few Jewish men and women who fought in the German underground army against the Nazi's. I guess what they did, the Jews underground fighters was wrong too.
Israel and Palestine do NOT compare when it comes to tactics or murder. No more than the Jewish underground, in 1940.
There are 2 Palestines. The one that was there before being militarized by Hamas and other Arab militants. The beautiful city of Lebanon was taken over and destroyed culturally and politcally through corrupt elections until they controlled or killed the peaceful intelligent citizens. Hamas funded by other countries in the region (Iran, Saudi Arabia & others from the region)can attack Israel from a close proximity. They care not for the real Palestinian people since they are only human shields to use against Israel. The sensible authentic Palestinians are being held captive for the purpose of attacking Israel relentlessly.
And the "sensible authentic" Israelis have been marginalized by a bunch of fundamentalists and fanatical settlers which have been imported and given housing built on Palestinian land.
One of our own citizens set off a bomb in Ok. and we executed him. We were attacked by terrorist in 2001 and have been involved in two wars as a result ever since. Israel does'nt always make the right decisions, none of us do. But ask yourself, what would America do if Canada, Mexico, Columbia, Cuba, and many other nations which surround us, were soley devoted to our destruction? I would hate to be one of thier citizens if that were the case.
Exactly. In that scenario we would not be as gentle and cautious as Israel has been.
FINALLY Sab Oh, we truly agree. But I'll go farther, I I I would NOT tolerate what they have. And MOST of thier toleration comes from thier relationship with the United States.
Danny, the problem was never established by Israel's neighbors. The problem is partly on the Jewish mentality "they are the chosen few", they are superior than the rest. The other problem is both the U.S and Britain thinking that the Jews are a special people pitting them against the Palestineans. Some of us what to believe that it is a christian movement but the Jews terrorized Jesus Christ out of his day-life!
Israel may have a belief that they are a chosen people, and although I am not jewish, I agree with that. But, they also have beliefs,(just as strong) that dictate how they treat strangers. And those biliefs do not coincide with the picture you are painting. The main problem is a dispute over the land that was given to the Jews after World War II. But if you studt history you will see that that land belonged to the Jews until Persia ran them out 70 years after Christ. Up until that point, Palastinians had no claim on that particular set of geography at all. They were beaten back every time by Israel, including the story of David and Goliath. So they've made a claim on land that was'nt truely thiers and now they have made it thier OBSSESSION to wipe out the Jews. I don't mind debating with you, but don't think I'm an idiot. Also, study your history, then we can talk.
Agreed. Israel is only doing what it has to do to survive, which by the way helps us fight the war against the terrorist factions in the Mideast and elsewhere who want to blow us up too.
I find this fact amazing enough, as proof against the Israelites. One of their own is quoted as saying, "Israel has conducted state-sponsored genocide against the Palestinians for decades and intensively in Gaza."
According to Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, in a September 2006 Electronic Intifada article titled "Genocide in Gaza" he wrote:
"A genocide is taking place in Gaza....An average of eight Palestinians die daily in the Israeli attacks on the Strip. Most of them are children. Hundreds are maimed, wounded and paralyzed. (It's become) a daily business, now reported (only) in the internal pages of the local press, quite often in microscopic fonts. The chief culprits are the Israeli pilots who have a field day," like shooting fish in a barrel. Why not, they're only Muslims, so who'll notice or care."
It is all right there in the article.
The facts cannot be disputed at this point. Israel needs to be cut off.
That is "proof" of nothing. You can find dozens of 'experts' in the US who will swear George Bush was a lizard and Obama is an Islamic terrorist sleeper agent. It deserves to be taken as seriously as such nonsense.
You are reading the wrong stuff. Keep you mind open and keep reading. You might stumble on the real story.
I actually think Israel is a successful state-- as compared to its neighbors -- and long may it live.
It is a successful state because of a number of factors. It is well organized and it has been backed with US dollars. Arguably other states in the area with lots of wealth haven't done so well.
Egypt is also a reasonably successful state thanks to the British, the French and the Americans.
Egypt has its own crimes to answer for. They say the last line of people who actually do come from the pyramid builders and creators of ancient wonders are the Coptic Christians. There are bastard Muslims in Egypt trying to wipe out this very unique part of Christianity. Much of the tourist trade depends on what the ancestors of the Coptic Christians managed to achieve so long ago yet you have scumbags in Egypt trying to destroy them. I find this revolting.
Dear Rod, this is a peaceful hub, let us use a friendly language. For starters there are no bastard Muslims or Christians for that matter. Muslims your true cousins! Get yourself educated, please!
Anyone who attacks peaceful people because they have a different belief system going are not my favorite sort of people, Get yourself educated as far as Coptic Christians living in Egypt are concerned. They have not been treated unfairly by all Muslims but the ones that have treated them unfairly because of their faith are not my favorite sort of people.
Those who intimidate others to change faith are to my way of thinking bastards no matter what religion they profess to follow. Coptic Christians in Egypt have been thus intimidated. It is true that the ancestors of the pyramid builders are the Coptic Christians and for this alone they should be honored and respected and not persecuted. Are there bastard Christians? Of course there are. Where Christians have used force to convert others to their religion it has been a bastard act. And so it goes. If good Muslims living in Egypt were to help the Coptics against their persecutors it would go a long way to showing a really excellent side to Islam.
Muslims may be the cousins of Christians but both Muslim radicals and Christian radicals have still done bad things that have little if anything to do with the Bible and the Koran.
I just get heated over what has happened to the Coptic Christians because I love Ancient Egyptian history and art and seeing the last living vestiges of that great past being mistreated by those who should know better just makes my blood boil as it should yours Rajab.
Yes, Rajab Nsubuga, it is hard for some to see that in modern times wrongs have been committed by those who call themselves Muslims in a country such as Egypt.
The Jews may well have committed great wrongs in Palestine and the west has put blinkers on but this is not the whole story.
If the rulers of Egypt were to be kinder, more generous and more understanding toward the Coptic Christians of Egypt then this would go a long way when it comes to Jews and Christians seeing the Muslim world in a better light.
Give justice and freedom to those who are desperate for it and see what the world thinks of you. What's more, people who couldn't give a fig about what is happening to Muslims in Palestine might decide to take a closer look and get the USA to do something positive for Muslims.
You show care and they show care. It could work.
I think you know what you are talking about. Keep putting that out there.
There are many voices and few are concerned with the truth.
Why are the xenophobia? Jordan and Egypt also happen to be successful countries too. I have nothing against Israel, but why all the hatred for Arabs?
That's the American way.
Kill the babies!
Hate the Arabs!
It is absurd.
That is most certainly NOT the American way. If that is YOUR way I suggest you take it somewhere else.
Everything about Israel is certainly the "American Way."
Americans kill without purpose, look to Iraq for an example.
Their common m o, when trying to solve a problem, is to shot first and ask later. Currently it is legal to kill babies, and currently in the US the cool thing to do is to hate the Arabs. It IS certainly the American Way.
If YOU cannot do deal with the truth, maybe you should take it somewhere else. Denying the truth, is irresponsible and extremely naive sparky.
It is my consensus sparky, that people so irresponsible and dimwitted, should not be commenting in a political forum.
I think you sprained your brain muscle, here, let me wrap your head.
Your callous attitude toward life and death and offensively negative and false slander of my country is truly disgraceful.
To answer Lovely Thoughts we could mention 9/11. Up until then millions of Americans couldn't have cared less about Arabs and what was happening in the Middle East or anywhere else outside the USA. Tell people though that Muslims are responsible for two tall buildings in New York falling and for the deaths of Americans on their own home soil and you have a fight on your hands and plenty of hatred for Muslims, including Arab Muslims, to go around.
The militant fundamentalists are the real threat to peace, not all Arabs.
The militants don't give a damn about borders. They will kill anywhere there are people who don't believe the way they do. They bully their way into countries like Egypt and Afghanistan. They will kill anyone Arab or non Arab.
Militant fundamentalist Jews are running Israel at the moment. They are nearly as bad as the fundamentalist Arabs.
You have all sorts of fundamentalist nut jobs running around nowadays. You have your militant fundamentalist nut job Jews, your fundamentalist nut job Arabs and your militant fundamentalist nut job Christians. All are bullies in the name of faith. All disgust me. Do they really represent the faith they say they represent? No. The Old testament isn't so bad, the bible isn't so bad and the Koran isn't so bad. Who knows where the more militant nut jobs really get their more violent ideas from? Killing in the name of God is just so wrong and it has been wrong forever.
Israel is a modern liberal democratic state facing constant attack from its less progressive neighbours. Compared to the regional players in the Middle East, Israel is certainly a 'good' state.
Not only this but Israel has contributed vastly to scientific, educational and cultural achievements of mankind in general. I see little from their neighbours in these regards.
Israel needs full support from her democratic allies against aggressors that would not be unhappy to see the West collapse as well.
It's about the land. Everyone is an aggressor when it comes to occupying territory, when that territory is sparse.
Beamkiss, don't you think that is prejudice? who did the Palestineans attack before Israel? I want to think that the war was brought to them
George Orwell wrote in his novel, 1984. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face— forever. In Israel it is happening now and has been happening for sixty years.
The present Israeli government are right wing nationalistic zealots of the worst kind and have no interest in peace. They will continue to slowly grind the Palestinians into the dust with US help. It is slow motion ethnic cleansing.
On behalf of innocent women children, and men, I do not advocate every decision Israel makes. However, let me stand just outside your yard and fire law rockets at your mothers, brothers, sisters, sons, and daughters, and we'll see how you react!
"The present Israeli government are right wing nationalistic zealots of the worst kind and have no interest in peace."
But the people who refuse to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, the people who have based their fundamental political charter on the goal of the destruction of Israel - they are peace-loving innocents who are just the victims of their neighbor who has repeatedly declared the hope and interest in peaceful coexistence?
So Canada could come here with their military, remove you from your home, destroy your crops, shove you off to an encampment, give your land to Canadians, and you'd be ok with that?
Will Apse is absoulutely correct, and it's about time we do something about it.....
Goldstone is a Zionist Jew. He told the truth about his country. Why don't you believe him?
And someone else here said we are owned by Israel, and that is also true.
When AIPAC was the first place Hilary and Barack went after they became the front-runners for the Democratic nomination...I was STUNNED.
Here's what went through my mind; "We pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of Israel."
What is going on here?
I think I might have a clue, and am thinking it would make a good hub: The Kosher Nostra.
It's no joke.
"So Canada could come here with their military, remove you from your home, destroy your crops, shove you off to an encampment, give your land to Canadians"
Canada could not do that because we are an actual nation and strong enough to prevent that. You'r attempt at comparing olives to corn fails on every level.
"He told the truth about his country. Why don't you believe him?"
And every American who ever writes anything about America is "telling the truth"? Is that how it works?
"someone else here said we are owned by Israel, and that is also true
"We pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of Israel."
The Kosher Nostra."
And the ugliness I predicted is slowly but surely revealing itself on this thread...
Here's a guy I read, Benjamin Fulford. Listen to what he says;
"High finance is not at all like what most people imagine it to be
Having spent a 25-year career as a financial and business journalist, I was very surprised indeed when I finally began to understand how high finance really works. Most people (including me for most of my career) thinks of serious people in pin-striped suits checking to make sure each comma in a document meets compliance standards when they imagine finance. The fact is that such people are merely technical servants. At the very top of the financial world (at least in the West) you find oligarchs and gangsters. In other words if you do not have serious protection in the way of goons and spies and gangsters, you are not going to last very long before you are killed and your money is seized."
I'm thinking gvt.s are run in much the same way....
It's not at all what we are led to believe.
"Justice Goldstone has received many prominent awards, including the MacArthur Award for International Justice, announced by the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation in October 2008, and bestowed in the The Hague in May, 2009. In 1994, Goldstone received the International Human Rights Award of the American Bar Association and in 2005 he received the Thomas J. Dodd Prize in International Justice and Human Rights. He holds honorary degrees from Hebrew University, the University of Notre Dame, the University of Maryland, and the Universities of Cape Town, British Columbia, Glasgow, and Calgary among others. He was the first person to be granted the title, The Hague Peace Philosopher in 2009, as part of the new Spinoza Fellowship, a program run by the city of The Hague, the Netherlands Institute for Advanced Study in the Humanities and Social Sciences (NIAS), Radio Netherlands, and the Hague Campus of the University of Leiden. He is an honorary fellow of St Johns College, Cambridge, an honorary member of the Association of the Bar of New York, a foreign member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and a fellow of the Center for International Affairs of Harvard University.
In October 2003, Goldstone gave a lecture entitled "Preventing Deadly Conflict" at the University of San Diego's Joan B. Kroc Institute for Peace & Justice Distinguished Lecture Series.In April 2005, Goldstone spoke on “The Future of International Criminal Justice,” at the Fletcher School (Tufts University) in Massachusetts."
And this guy is brushed off as not knowing what he's talking about.....a little ugliness of your own there sabby?
Here we see a perfect example of how anti-Semitism unfolds...
No, we see the reactinary politics of the far right.
It's no different than what you did to all of us who spoke out against our own government under Bush. We were called America Haters.
Now, we speak out against the gvt. of Israel and are labeled Anti Semites.
It's the same thing.
It's bigotry, but on your part.
You fail to see the difference between decrying the actions of a gvt. and decrying the people of a country.
It's a way for you to stifle all dissent, to shut people up.
It's not going to work. People have eyes.
If you can justify the crimes going on, you go ahead...should I call you an Arab Hater?
Or now that you criticize Obama, are you an America Hater?
Of course not, you are expressing your opinions. But you aren't the only one who has opinions. And yours are no more valid than mine. In fact, given the facts...yours are not even half as valid!
In fact, I would say...your opinions are wrong!
"what you did to all of us who spoke out against our own government under Bush."
How long do you intend to define yourself and excuse your own partisan hatemongering with this whiney refrain?
" We were called America Haters."
No you weren't. Stop lying for emotional effect.
"Now, we speak out against the gvt. of Israel and are labeled Anti Semites"
No, when you make statements to the effect that "those sneaky Jews are evil and want to control the world" you will be labelled an anti-semite because that is what you are showing yourself to be. Have they poisoned the well water too?
I told you your political hysteria would lead to no good...
Israel's continued building of new settlements on Palestinian land and it's brutal invasion of Gaza last year are grievous mistakes which jeopardize Israel's future security and contribute to the destabilization of the region. Moreover, the perception in the Arab world that the U.S. supports Israel in these policies is a significant contributor to terrorism against our American homeland and facilities around the world.
If some group in Canada were firing rockets into US territory on a regular basis, we'd tell Canada to put a stop to it. If they didn't or couldn't we'd do a hell of a lot more than Israel did.
The Palestinians are certainly not blameless. However, Israel has been very provocative in it's treatment of the Palestinians and has killed 300 Palestinians, including women and children, for every one Israeli casualty. The Palestinians' crude rockets rarely result in Israeli casualties.
The difference being that if the rockets stopped coming from the Palestinian side the Israelis would not be responding.
Wrong analysis, Sab, for instance, which part of Israel is under occupation? Israel's prime minister can trace his first name back to 3,000 yrs just as you Sab can trace your ancestry using the Darwinism theory to Oldvai-Gorge in Tanzania. But the World now is more than 5 billion people! How are we then to fit in these small cradle lands?
At last there is a sane voice that we can all relate to. Thanks Ralph!
If I may say so, Ralph is usually very well versed and offers real information that is both humane and logical.
You are the one using emotion...
No one said "sneaky Jews are evil".
But that Likud gvt. certainly is. I have no qualms in saying that.
You want another word? Lawbreaker!
You keep blaming Palestinians for not wanting to be occupied by force, and have their land stolen. You would not put up with it...why should they?
And we have not been a fair broker in the region, not by a long shot.
You really are a perfect example of what Jesus was talking about...remove the log from your own eye before you point to the mote in theirs. (?)
If you can justify Operation Cast Lead....there is no way to reason with you.
White phosphorous used against civilians is against the law. WE made the phosphorous. WE gave it to them. WE gave them the F-16's. WE killed those children.
I am not proud of that, and I want it to stop.
"No one said "sneaky Jews are evil".
That seems to be the tone of some of your posts. Do you reject such sentiment?
"You keep blaming Palestinians for not wanting to be occupied by force, and have their land stolen"
Leaving aside how childishly simplistic that notion is, where did I say anything like that?
You could care less about your country. You care about the far right republican fascist wing, that's all.
At least, that's "the tone" of your posts. Guess that makes it fact eh sabby?
"the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) issued a statement demanding to be allowed to assist those in need of medical attention because the Israeli military had blocked access to wounded Palestinians, a war crime under international law.
Also that same day, UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon issued a statement condemning the Israeli Defense Force for firing on a UN aid convoy delivering humanitarian goods to the desperate people of Gaza, another war crime,
as well as the killing of two staff members of the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) in a separate incident."
How can anyone support this?
And as far as nasty responses...I've had plenty..as well as listening to tighty-righty's call Obama a Fascist, a Socialist, a Marxist, a Nazi, a non-citizen, and a Voodo Witch Doctor with a bone through his nose....you want to talk nasty? You people wrote the book!
Same as the Zionist Neo-Cons are the threat, not all Jews....geee, there is a difference huh?
Tried to say that earlier, no one wanted to admit the distinction! Always with the anti-semite label.
"Israel has always demand that no one ever criticize them ever. This is abnormal control and oppression. Israel demands the right to do whatever they want and the demand that no one has the right ever to say anything. They have done this for years screaming antisemitic every time anyone even dares say that they do not agree with Israel's policy ."
Apparently, AIPAC is circulating a letter demanding our Congress support them unequivocatively, no matter what....this is offensive! And wrong. We should act in our own behalf...period.
We aren't owned by anyone...or are we?
This issue always seems to bring out rhetoric on either side of the issue as to who is right, wrong, who is more murderous, etc.... Would it not be more productive to use this as a dialog to move forward in an attempt to reach a peaceful solution? What would you all do if you lost this topic to prove to one another how educated you are or how compassionate and righteous you are. What would you do with all that free time? Debating a problem without offering a solution is like complaining about the worlds problems with disregard for your own. Let's use that intelligence and vigor to bash and berate positively to chart a course forward.
How do you find a peaceful solution when one side doesn't want a peaceful solution?
Very hard. It looks to me doubtful if either side wants a peaceful solution.
"How do you find a peaceful solution"
By keeping Sab out. Sorry, I meant the mind of Sab!
Sure not the ones you support.
How a yuppie from New York is entitled to Palestinian land that's been in their family for generations is beyond me.
Or a yuppie from Europe, or an Eskimo from Alaska for that matter....they are paying people to settle there...with our tax money, and you cry about people here getting healthcare!
Where is your allegiance?
Is this anything to do with that Hagee end-times stuff?
Or is it just PNAC Neo-Con plans in action?
Wipe out a population so you have a bigger empire?
Or take Jerusalem cause Hagee says it is ordained for you?
Whatever it is it is not America-First. It is not America even considered.
We don't need a war with Iran thank you.
The war with iraq was not the right one we blew that. We already knew sadam was a waste, we should have shut-down iran thats the real problem in that region. Now because of that mistake we're looking at a potential nuclear exchange between iran and Israel. Not good!
It is my view that no-one would dare attack Israel with a nuclear weapon because of the old MAD theory... ie, nuclear weapon as deterrent. I also wonder whether the Iranian motivation for obtaining a nuclear missile (I assume they have these intentions, though I can't read their minds) is also deterrence. After all, isn't that why we (Americans and British) have nuclear weapons... for deterrence?
I am not trying to be provocative. These are two questions I'd like sincere answers to, if you felt you had them
Well islamists have never been bothered by the strength of Israel before and most everyone is sure Israel has nukes. Israel has never once ever waved their nukes in anyones face and thats all iran and n. korea have done.
Look we're not perfect and Israels not perfect but, we're awhole lot better than the alternative. If you can't see that you need to do some reading starting with alittle regional history. Don't be chic side with the good guys c'mon it's ok!
I really don't think we want to start doing a comparison of our respective backgrounds education-wise...
Well excuse me! Why would you even waste your time talking with an idiot like me?
I spend a lot of time studying the holy lands and the middle east. For religious and personal curiosity reasons. If thats how it sounded I apologize but, I don't know any of you well enough to want to compare education levels. I have a degree in Applied Science and a hobby of reading and visiting historical places from all eras. I hold numerous professional licenses all for agricuture, irrigation, drainage and inspections. I'm 55yrs old and have worked since I was 8yrs old.( I sold Cracker Jacks at Falcon Stadium at the AFA)So generally I'm a nobody who enjoys the Hubs thats all I know.
I see no reason to compare notes like this, as a person in applied science or a technical field is in no sense inferior to someone with an academic education in the social sciences or humanities (as I am sure you realize!).
But I have a five year conjoint Bachelor of Arts with Bachelor of Education majoring in Religious Studies with a concentration in biblical criticism, which included a five week course on Israelite and Palestinian history and archeology, in Israel and the West Bank.
I have also been to Morocco twice, and was pretty close to being engaged to a Moroccan Arab Muslim. I almost converted to Islam when I lived in London, England.
I am originally half-Jewish, half-Protestant.
I also have a Master's degree in the Humanities (including the philosophy of history, and philosophy of the social sciences).
I was also preparing at one point to do a PhD at McGill University in Montreal comparing depictions of the Palestine-Israel conflict in school textbooks.
Wow! You are amazing! Well you know a hell of alot more than I do! I need to shutup, sorry, now I'm embarassed. Please forgive my ignorance.
It's hard to say whether you are being sarcastic when it's on the Internet. I certainly didn't mean to sound arrogant. You listed your credentials and experience first, after all. 55 years of life experience counts for a hell of a lot. As well as the intellectual vigor required for any kind of technical field.
In truth, I don't disagree for a second that there are many vested interests within the Muslim world that want nothing better than to see damage done to Israel. I do not support this. In fact, being half-Jewish I support Israelis' right to live in peace, not least because my own grandmother supports it... This cannot but have an effect on how I see things.
What's more, the Iranians, Saddam, Osama, and God knows who else have manipulated the situation, claiming they support the plight of the Palestinians when they in fact couldn't care less.
My point, really, is, as I have said, not that the Israelis have no right to defend themselves, and not that Hamas and the PLO before them targeted civilians many times, and not, indeed, that Egypt and others have not tried to "drive Israel into the sea", but that BOTH SIDES HAVE PERPETRATED ATROCITIES, AND NOT JUST ONE SIDE.
Wow, you "almost" did things and "prepared" to do other things! That is nearly amazing!
"I really don't think we want to start doing a comparison of our respective backgrounds education-wise..."
Wow, you must be special
You seriously need to stop butting into other people's conversations. This is the second time today you have done it. I'm telling you, it's a good way to get your head knocked off.
No not in the big picture but that could have waited till after iran.
'Following the establishment of Israel in 1948, the Palestinians and their Arab patrons appeared more interested in destroying Israel than in establishing a Palestinian state'
There was a Palestinian state prior to 1948. Unsurprisingly, that state wanted to continue to exist. The reality now is that it will never happen. The best the Palestinians can hope for is a tiny reservation where they will be left to get on with their lives in peace.
The best the rest of us can hope for is that the Palestinians accept a bitter reality, the almost complete destruction of their culture and allow peace to return to the region. As others have pointed out, the conflict is one of the main causes of terrorism in the world.
As for 'patrons' and client states...
The only client states in the region are client states of the US.
"There was a Palestinian state prior to 1948"
NO, there was not.
You are right Sab Oh. I had my mind on something else. I'm sort of glad I made that mistake. You are looking increasingly beleaguered in these forums. There was a time when political debate here didn't get beyond 'freedom YEH! or 'Obama is a commie'.
what is with this posting? I thought I was answering a question and it comes up all over the place?
guess you have to post under "reply"...sorry
Sab Oh asked
How do you find a peaceful solution when one side doesn't want a peaceful solution?
The real question is more along the lines of how do you find a peaceful solution when one side can bring to bear overwhelming force and thus has no motive to compromise.
If the US stopped arming the Israelis they might decide it was in their interests to respect international law and settle for the two state solution. As long as US support is unequivocal Israel will pursue a military solution.
Israel has repeatedly shown a willingness to compromise. You can't talk your way around the fact that Hamas doesn't want peace.
Why do you bother posting here (I know why). I mean, yes Israel has made noises about compromise relatively often, but the idea that the Palestinians have never done the same shows either:
- total ignorance and lack of education or
- a hidden agenda that deems it worthy to bend the truth.
As to one side wanting peace and the other not, first of all, Hamas does not represent all Palestinians (and neither does Likud or Labour represent all Israelis). Second of all, realistically, do the Israeli powers that be show with their actions that they want peace? So, if Hamas don't want peace, neither do the Hawks in the Knesset (so that makes two sides). Finally, several Arab countries have signed PEACE TREATIES with Israel.
I am not defending terrorists, or Islamists, I am simply underscoring your cynical attempts to score points for a political agenda that has everything to do with goings-on in the States and nothing to do with the lives of either Israelis or Palestinians. Shame on you.
I'm not talking about "several Arab countries" I'm talking about the Hamas terrorists. Focus.
"The people of Israel have always been willing to make momentous concessions, both during negotiations and unilaterally, for the sake of peace. Each time peace seemed possible and a negotiating partner came forward seeking an agreement, Israel responded positively, clearly demonstrating its ability and aspiration to make peace.
Israel's readiness to reach an agreement with its neighbors predated the very founding of the state. The Jewish leadership of pre-state Israel accepted numerous international plans for the partition of the land - including UN Resolution 181 of 1947 which called to divide the Palestinian Mandate territory into a Jewish state and an Arab state. Unfortunately, this plan was violently rejected by the Arab side, as was the 1937 Peel Commission's plan and the 1939 British White Paper, both of which presented the Palestinians with prospects for establishing a state of their own.
Following the establishment of Israel in 1948, the Palestinians and their Arab patrons appeared more interested in destroying Israel than in establishing a Palestinian state. Indeed, from 1948 to 1967 although the West Bank and Gaza were under Jordanian and Egyptian control respectively, no efforts were made to establish a Palestinian state and attacks against Israel continued unabated.
Following Israel's victory in the pre-emptive Six Day War of 1967, the Arab League meeting in Khartoum dashed Israeli post-war plans for peace when they declared: "no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel and no negotiations with it."
Israel's first peace agreement with a neighboring state was achieved in negotiations following Egyptian President Anwar Sadat's 1977 visit to Jerusalem. As part of its peace treaty with Egypt, Israel gave back the Sinai Peninsula buffer-zone, which constituted 91% of all the territory which came under Israeli control as a result of the Six Day War. In so doing, Israel voluntarily relinquished vital electronic early-warning stations, 170 military installations, factories, businesses, agricultural villages and an Israeli-discovered oil-field. Most painfully, Israel uprooted 7,000 of its citizens from their homes in Sinai. All this Israel did in return for a promise of peace. Israel's peace treaty with Egypt clearly demonstrated its readiness to sacrifice for peace.
The Palestinians, who could have established autonomous rule under the Camp David Accords between Israel and Egypt, refused to cooperate, again missing an opportunity to achieve their national aspirations.
Following changes in the international arena, the Palestinians and the neighboring Arab states Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan finally agreed to bilateral and multilateral negotiations with Israel and direct peace talks were inaugurated at the 1991 Madrid Peace Conference. These talks led to the signing of a Treaty of Peace between Israel and Jordan in October 1994.
Negotiations between Israelis and the Palestinians eventually led to the September 1993 Declaration of Principles. In exchange for Palestinians promises to recognize Israel and renounce violence and terrorism, Israel agreed to far-reaching and tangible concessions, including the establishment of the Palestinian Authority (PA) in the West Bank and Gaza, headed by Yasser Arafat. Israel transferred substantial powers and responsiblities to the Palestinians in vast geographical areas.
Negotiations for a final settlement continued, although marred by Palestinian terrorist attacks, as well as a campaign of incitement against Israel in the PA-supported media, schools and mosques. These talks led to the historically critical 2000 Camp David and Taba summits in which Israeli leaders offered exceptional compromises for peace. Unfortunately, Yasser Arafat chose to reject the unprecedented proposals, which would have led to a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. A short time later, he decided to turn his back on negotiations altogether, and launch a new wave of terrorism - the Second Intifada - which led to the deaths of thousands of Israelis and Palestinians alike.
In the absence of a genuine Palestinian negotiating partner, yet keen on restarting the peace process, Israel unilaterally disengaged from Gaza in 2005, again uprooting thousands of Israeli families from their homes. As the last settler and soldier left Gaza, Israel hoped that its far-reaching concession - which provided the Palestinians a tangible opportunity to peacefully lay the foundations for a state - would lead to a better future for both peoples.
However, yet again, Israel's painful sacrifice was not reciprocated. Instead, the fundamentalist Hamas terrorist organization took power in Gaza, and rocket and mortar attacks on southern Israeli communities escalated dramatically, forcing Israel to launch a large-scale operation in Gaza in December 2008, successfully curtailing the Hamas attacks. "
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Min … htm#Peace3
And we're expected to read this when? We do have lives you know. Besides, there are mountains of academic literature on that conflict. It would be just as easy to produce a thousand such quotes arguing in the other direction.
The bottom line is that:
(a) it is wrong to shoot rocket launchers into city streets from helicopters
(b) it is wrong to send suicide bombers into city streets
Both sides target civilians... that's BOTH sides.
That is a response to my first line. I notice you very "cleverly" (and I use the term ironically) have a habit of blithely ignoring sections of responses you don't want to answer... like, you know, the rest of the post you responded to here... which was just a few lines...
Please, please, be overt, tell us why you feel the need to roll your eyes.....
Israel and the Palestinians both need a motive to compromise. Clearly that hasn't happened yet. You need to ask why not. Palestinian politics will be dominated by extremists as long as there seems to be no hope of a solution. Israeli 'facts on the ground'- road building and settlements in the occupied territories induce despair not hope- as does everyday harassment, blockades. land seizures etc etc.
I encourage all here to explore the Sykes-Picot Agreement, and the disection of the 'Middle/Near East."
Upon this platform I wish then to place the largely American sponsored illegal immigration of Jewish immigrants into a region upon which the United Nations had placed an immigration freeze.
While hardly alone in this aspect, the state of Israel has benefitted greatly by not following rules that, for other natios, would warrant serious rebuke. It is not that Israel has not been reproached for its past and ongoing behavior, which perpetuates Hamas, and ensures that there is desperation to foster resentment and aggressive retaliation...
It is that it continues to gain the financial, military, and political support of the United States...with largely no questions asked.
A solution can be found, but there are a vast quantity of interests that profit greatly from instability.
I propose that, immediately, Palestine interior be connected to its port in Gaza. If a multinational effort has to be created in order to provide a movement channel that benefits both Israel and Palestine, then so be it.
There are solutions out there...
I say give the palastinians one last shot at behaving and if they don't let Israel take the land back. The palastinians can live in the sinai.
"I encourage all here to explore the Sykes-Picot Agreement"
Why haven't you mentioned that 1000 times before?
Go check a new book out of the library
none state is bad it depends on people who livs there. Bad People make place bad ad goog people make place good.
You say potato I say Israel is a criminal state that should be torn down. It ain't a potato.
How are you different with all your hate?
What hate? Show me where you found hate in any of my posts.
Not hate. I can't find that. Only Free wiil : a waste of time going after Deborah
I like playing with Deborah, she always gives it her all
Why there are a lot of men here that think I love them ?
I don't love anybody!
and who R U , BTW ?
Think back a while or just look at the two hubs I have see if they bring back any memories for you..
p.s. I don't really think you love me. There is no love anyway, right? Only lust.
You must have deleted your post where you are so against Israel.
Deborah, is this what you are referring to?
WizardOfOz..the judge of those wanting to survive.
No one here will give up without a fight ..yet you expect Israel to. Double standards.. The Philistines have been War-Mongers since they began.
Sweetheart you assume all too often. I don't expect anything from Israel.
Stop calling me sweetheart..you sexist.
I'm not your sweetheart.
Just because I am female doesn't mean you can try to belittle me.
Notice I said try..
Wow...a lot of "history" flying around...
Here's what I've read:
Jews, Christians, Muslims, people of all faith or no faith at all lived in the the area peacefully, and with a great culture. They considered themselves Brothers. All from the same God.
It wasn't until the Balfour Declaration which said "we will throw you people ALREADY LIVING HERE out, so we can put these people in" that this current problem started.
Palestine was not taken "peacefully". The people did not go peacefully. They were forced out, and the land taken by force...military might.
And the Israeli terrorist groups made sure their hold was maintained,..by force. Surely you must know of the bombing of the King David Hotel?
It was never a peaceful/lovey-dovey occupation..it is an occupation by force and might.
Nothing noble about it.
And you don't expect people to fight back? You expect people to lie down and take it?
And puleeeze...tell me how some young couple from New York are entitled to take Palestinian land?
AND besides, the Ashkenazi Jews have no historic connection to the area...they are from Eastern Europe!
The whole thing is wrong. IMO.
I believe so. I believe the Ashenazis were Khazars from the Caucausus(sp) Mountains or in that region, who converted to Judaism for political reasons... nothing to do with serving the faith. That was done all the time in history. Religion was a tool of power just as much as the Royal family lines. People intermarried for power and politics and people chose religions for the same reason.
Please. Just look at what they are doing. How can you call that practicing the tenents of Judaism? Judaism says to look after the widow and the orphan...not create them!
Yes, the state of Israel is bad. This does not mean the people of Israel are bad--indeed, there is significant political, religious and ideological diversity among them. But insofar as the state of Israel continues oppressing and committing injustices against innocent people, it is a bad state.
This does not mean it is the only bad state, or the worst state. But given how powerless Israel is without the patronage of a few powerful countries, and therefore how easy it would be to change its behavior, it warrants special attention, as bad states go.
Israel has it's good and bad points just like any other State or Country. We are human and we will cause history to repeat its self as long as the world turns. Sadly.
And I do not think one man or President can stop the bloodshed in any State or Country.
susan you're right.
only violence will end the violence. Make of that what you will.
No, only violence will repeat and cause more violence, Wizard. We less then perfect humans never stop the fighting. We always find another reason why we think we must fight and kill each other. Its sad.
If you remove the persecutor with a quick and wide reaching kill then you stop the violence. Really depends how you value human life.
Israel has 2000 years' history in its backyard. Finding justification for its existence or analysing its conduct seems irrelevant. Because almost all the countries in the present world set up are newer than Israel. A society which wants to learn from the experiences of the elder people will only survive for long. Those commenting on anything and everything, whether relevant or irrelevant, have to learn a lot from elders.
No, we are talking about the state of Israel that was set up in 1947. The one we pay for, provide weapons for and go to war for.
We are not talking 2000 year history, we are talking here and now and the children that die needlessly so people can steal,plunder and expand their domain. "Greater Israel" I believe it is called.
It is wrong.
You can't put lipstick on this pig!
Who is wiping out who? Do you have eyes to see?
Watch: The Iron Wall
Google a map of the West Bank...see what has happened there
Stop the madness. There is one wrong side here, and we are on it!
"children that die needlessly so people can steal,plunder and expand their domain"
You, of course, have it completely backwards
You can't blame Sab, He only rehashes the propoganda that has been fed him by those he chooses to listen too. What a shame as there seems to be a passion to his writing however misguided it is.
Let's see: which side deliberately targets civilians? which side hides their terrorists and bomb-making facilities among civilians in the hopes that their deaths will make good propaganda?
You cannot reasonably defend terrorism.
If you always point out the wrongs of another there is little time spent on the truth.
The threat of Hamas and other terror organizations has sprung up out of frustration by the people to have their side heard. I and most everyone I know does not condone terrorism.
Israel with its huge support from the US dominates and wipes out the ability to compromise with Israel through its vast network of media and lobbying sources.
You merely regurgitate the propoganda that is fed to you without thinking of the other side of the argument and therefore cannot effect any change.
I feel sorry for your blindness of the facts.
Isn't it interesting: the Palestinian terrorists intentionally target civilians, the Israelis do not.
And yet (1) BOTH end up killing civilians, (2) Israel kills many more than Palestinian terrorists.
I wonder: if I am a dead civilian, do I care much whether my killer "intentionally" killed me or not?
When it rains, doesn't it rain both on the just and on the unjust?
Though it rains on both..the rain still must fall.
I'm sure there is a hidden message here but it is lost on me, sorry.
The innocent body count alone says Israel is more dangerous than the terrorists, to say nothing of the religious/ ideological danger of Israel.
"I wonder: if I am a dead civilian, do I care much whether my killer "intentionally" killed me or not?"
To answer the real question, yes, it makes a big difference.
if you have more weapons and bigger weapons it is a lot easier to make mistakes but the questions is really being begged now, is it a really a mistake?
The answer is no. Collateral damage is no good excuse and you either know it or you should go learn some more.
Well, dead is dead last time I checked.
And more are dead because of Israel than because of the terrorists.
That doesn't equate them morally. But on the other hand, the most important moral measure is death itself.
"And more are dead because of Israel than because of the terrorists."
The Israelis would like that to stop, but the terrorists insist that it go on.
"The Israelis would like that to stop, but the terrorists insist that it go on."
Terrorists insist on a lot of things. The responsibilities of a modern state transcend that.
The first responsibility of any state is to protect its people.
Absolutely; there are other responsibilities too, including not harming others unnecessarily.
Please..look at the beheadings by the Muslim Barbarians.
The Palestinians would cut the heads off every Hebrew if they thought they could get away with it.
This statement is not grounded in fact, but emotion. One could just as easily say "the Israelis would cut the heads off every Arab if they thought they could get away with it." Emotion and hate is what keeps killing people on both sides.
Hate?! Haha, whatever.
Saying that Palestinians--millions of whom are innocent men, women and children--would cut off the heads of every Hebrew if they thought they could get away with it, is clearly a ridiculous and unfair thing to say, and you don't have to say that to defend Israel.
Please look at the innocent women and children slaughtered by the Israeli army in Gaza last year. The U.S. gives Israel billions of dollars every year only to have our vice president insulted by a representative of the Israeli government when he visited there last month.
Are you familiar with the Goldstone report? As you may know,Goldstone is a Zionist with impeccable credentials.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/30/world … amp;st=cse
Why don't you check THIS ONE?
Goldstone Gaza Report: Col. Richard Kemp Testifies at U.N. Emergency Session
I didn't find Col. Kemp's address very convincing. It's not clear what he based his conclusions on. His remarks were quite one-sided.
Why don't you watch this one? And read the Goldstone report if you haven't already.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Moag8mcf … eature=fvw
BTW, I don't think Israel is a "bad state." I have long been an admirer of Israel, and I am a strong supporter of its security and independence. However, like many Israelis and American Jews I don't agree with the policies of the current government. Sharon's death was a tragedy for everyone.
"Please look at the innocent women and children slaughtered by the Israeli army in Gaza last year"
The terrorists hiding among them like cowards bear most responsibility for those deaths.
I was going to state this myself.
The terrorist hide among the citizens/civilians and in order to get to them innocent people die.
They are aware of this and don't care even for their own people.
Once a terrorist, always a terrorist.
We can always count on you for a balanced fact-based opinion. Have you read the Goldstone report? I doubt that you have.
The Hebrews have been attacked by the war-mongers aka Palestinians for many years, also the Germans, you do remember Hitler.
Enough is enough..
The Palestinians broke the treatise about 3 times and Israel kept their part of the bargain. Israel does not trust them.
It's like living with Vipers.
In other words, you are Muslim and are protecting the war-mongers which the Palestinians are and always will be. They think they have a right to everything.
They have fought unfairly and they want war..now they have it.
My, you seem like an angry person. So angry you can't realize that my name is "secularist" indicating I have no religion. I suggest you consider more than a person's skin color when making judgments. You also seem to hate Muslims for some reason.
The atrocities committed by Germany in WWII are no more relevant to modern Palestinians vis-a-vis the Jews than those of 19th century white slavers are to modern white Americans vis-a-vis blacks.
If the Palestinians are "war-mongers" then so are the Israelis, since they have killed many more than the Palestinian terrorists.
Why do you feel I am angry? I'm not. You have no control over my emotions to make me angry.
I speak bluntly and you don't like it and therefore call me angry...
Even if you are not a practicing Muslim, it is obvious you are connected to them. Is this not true?
I didn't even notice your skin color. and what does that have to do with anything? Most people here use avatars and not real pictures though there are a few. I don't judge by an avatar. Stop using the Oh, my skin is dark, therefore they hate me, tactic.
I don't hate Muslims, however innocent Americans were beheaded by them
Should I say it is OK and dismiss it? I don't hate anyone, however I don't trust those who prove to be untrustworthy barbarians.
They live in the Dark Ages.
Umm... calling entire populations war-mongers and vipers indicates emotion.
"Even if you are not a practicing Muslim, it is obvious you are connected to them."
Oh, but you are so ignorant of that which you do not understand!
It's really none of your business, but I am of hispanic and white american heritage--not a drop of Arab blood, not a drop of Jewish blood, and I have never followed any religion in my life.
But you seem to assume anyone with brown skin who happens to be critical of Israel must be an Arab Muslim. Too bad. You really need to open your mind just a tad.
Everything you have said is incorrect.
I have no idea how you look, I have never met/seen you. So how do I judge you because of brown skin.
My husband is Hebrew and his grandparents live there. I am not Hebrew.
Calling me ignorant is no better..You must judge yourself on the same level as you judge me.
Again, no emotions here. I am highly educated and I don't allow people to stir my emotions.
I read, analyze and respond..in control.
Since the only way you could possibly think that I am "Muslim" is either by my words or my picture, or both, I thought it was fair to assume that.
Other than simplistic thinking, why else would you feel the need to say "you are Muslim and are protecting the war-mongers..." ?
Nope, nothing emotional about accusing someone you don't know of "protecting war-mongers." Nothing emotional at all.
Who is wiping out who?
Who is breaking the law to encroach on other's land?
It doesn't take a rocket scientists to see what is going on.
Just requires taking off the unfair biased lenses.
Isreal is not the victim here.
We are supporting a rogue gvt.
The land use to belong to the people of Israel. So they want it back.
My house "used to belong" to several other people before me. A number of legal transactions occurred before I bought it as is the case with the land on which Israel is building settlements in violation of agreements which created Israel. Israel has no more right to grab land because it may have occupied it many years ago than the previous owners of my house have the right to kill me and re-take the house they built in 1929.
Numbers 31:7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man.
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
Now if someone was trying to murder you or your family wouldn't you try to murder that person first?
If not, what kind of love do you have?
If strangers came and tried to take over your house and push you out..would you let them?
Till you walk in their shoes...
so if I threw a bottle at your house would you drop a bomb on mine?
What bottle?. Wow how unimportant you see the Hebrews.
"Now if someone was trying to murder you or your family wouldn't you try to murder that person first?
If not, what kind of love do you have?
If strangers came and tried to take over your house and push you out..would you let them?"
Excellent defense of the Palestinian side, Deborah!
Your argument can apply so precisely in defense of the Palestinians against Israel, isn't that interesting.
Since it was the Hebrews driven out of their land they have a right to fight for it.
By that logic, the Native Americans have a right to fight for their land too, right?
However they still live here and have a better life. They weren't driven out. They are not taxed and are even allowed to smoke their peace pipes without legal action.
Remember, I did nothing to the Indians myself.
I think you missed my point: if the "Hebrews" can fight for their land TODAY based on property rights of 2000 years ago, then Native Americans can fight for land TODAY based on property rights of 200 years ago.
They don't want to. Life is better for them now.
They have stores, houses and entertainment.
What you seem to have missed, is that it is Israel's War Against Palestinian Terror
The point is the folly of trying to uphold property rights that were created thousands of years ago in an ancient, backward world on land that has been conquered, settled and re-conquered countless times over the ages, such that there is ZERO relationship between any modern person and the lives or governments of that ancient era. Pretty simple.
To them, it is more then property. It is the promised land. The holy land. You just don't get it.
And again: What you seem to have missed, is that it is Israel's War Against Palestinian Terror
Is there a curtain around Deborah? I want to imagine that at one point your mother, grand mother were virgins but now there you are!
There was a time when Adam and the World were one, before the creation of Eve. But now the World is over 5billion people! I wonder where the 4,999,999,999 people would end up if Adam made aclaim!
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What's your solution to the Israel-Palestine problem? Would like to hear your personal solutions!!
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