Demonstrators attacked the LAPD Rampart Station to protest the shooting of Manuel Jamines, who came at three police officers with a switchblade. Manuel Jamines died. The police chief defends the shooting as defensive. The area where this incident happened is an immigrant neighborhood. Are we beginning to see the same problems with immigrants that the French are having with theirs?
Why don't we round them up and shoot them?
To be safe, maybe we should go back a few generations. Where were your great grandparents born?
That's a bit of a hysterical reaction isn't it Pcunix? Careful, the dye in your hair might be sinking into your brain cells and causing that reaction.
No, I think you can't be too careful with these dirty, Democrat voting immigrants. That's why I want to know when your family got here.
I "belong" here. All of my ancestors came on the Mayflower or soon after, long before the formation of the United States. I think the country has definitely gone down hill since we let in all the riff-raff after that and I think we should retroactively correct that situation.
So again: when did your ancestors get here?
You're a foreigner and part of the riff raff. My ancestors were here before yours were and they killed my family so go home.
I think your ancestors got lost, they were looking for Cuba. You should try immigrating there. They have lots of room with all the people risking their lives on inner tubes fleeing that socialist paradise you should have no problem finding an unoccupied home.
It is really ironic that you TP people keep thinking that liberal policies lead to communism.
The facts are that your free wheeling, low taxes, capitalism is our god society is what will create massive poverty and misery.
Liberals don't want communism. We just want to keep the rich from exploiting the helpless and to create a fair and just society where the playing field is as even as it can be. We can't ever reach perfection on that and sometimes, yes, things swing too far to the left and sometimes they swing to far to the right.
The Tea Party is far too much to the right.
The playing field is already level. Equal opportuinty does not mean equal results. You think everyone should get a trophy just for being on the team even if they never played the game! That's the kind of society you want to create!
Yup. That's what socialism is like; make everyone the "same" no matter what their skills, desires, or abilities; drones basically! Well, I don't wanna be a drone. I enjoy diversity, that thing that liberals claim to want, but really just want everyone to be just as non-specifically liberal as they are.
10 percent of the USA population control 93 percent of the assets. A society cannot last long if the ratios get worse. And a large portion of the wealth was transferred through the massive ponzi scam known as the housing bubble.
You're talkin' money, while I was talking about crime and social issues.
While money can be a part of that, the first thing, in my opinion, that must be dealt with is the moral and social issues.
We must allow PC to toot his own horn. We all need to know how wealthy healthy and wise he is. The thing I admire the most about PC is his humility
Yes, I guess he can't imagine that people who have as much or more money than him wouldn't think like him, otherwise you're just selfish. Yup, there's that famous nuance of his.
As I explained to Jimmy, I wasn't bragging - just describing an ordinary middle class life style before puppets like you let the corporations and the wealthy take control of America.
Just an ordinary life - so sad that you think that's "wealth", isn't it?
I don't but since you're going on and on about it to people who don't care, it must define wealth to you. Good for you Pcunix, now do us a favor like a good little liberal and pay off some of that deficit and prove to us that you're okay with using your money instead of other peoples.
I pay my taxes. Nothing like I used to - I used to kid my daughter who works for the Federal Government that she was literally my tax dollars at work
But those days are long gone, partially by my own choice (I am on a long retirement path) and partially because of the economic policies your heroes inflicted upon us.
We could pay off the deficit. We HAD surpluses when we had Democrats in charge, but of coutse your conservative heroes destroyed all that.
When are you going to wake up and realize these thieves are not on your side? Why is it so difficult for you to see that?
Y'all are classic examples of people manipulated by those who could buy and sell you millions of times over - and do!
You're still at those imaginary surpluses? For a businessman you really know very little about economics. The Republicans were in charge of the House when we had a smaller deficit. It was only when the Democrats took over the House that we got into trouble or do you just want to gloss over the whole Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac debacle. And I do remember that GW Bush did sound the alarm on that but Barney said everything was okay. So keep fooling yourself, I understand it's the only way that you can handle your downsized lifestyle but I see that you still don't want to help pay off that deficit. Huh, I'm not surprised, you're a "wealthy" liberal all right.
Making stuff up again, as usual. Don't worry, we won't force you to pay more, you can keep that "wealth".
To hear him tell it our poor middle-class selves have been paying for his rich self.
I need some money back.
Well, it is all in his head about his "wealth". And fat chance you getting your money back! A wealthy liberal is more tightfisted than a clam.
What "wealth", wage slave? I never had any wealth. My grandfather did, but he ran off with a postal clerk and blew it all on her -)
I have worked hard all my life. Worked for everything I ever owned - started with nothing, inherited nothing, and lived a typical American middle class life style - house in the suburbs, two kids, lawn to mow, all that. No "wealth".
But that life style doesn't exist any more, does it? No, for most it is now just a dream, something their parents had but they will never see. There are many reasons for that, but the main reason is that you let the truly wealthy milk us all dry. You bought their lies about "trickle down" and how progressive taxes are "bad" and you still swallow it like mother's milk today.
You have been duped. Wake up before it is too late.
Okay, now you're saying you don't have any "wealth" and that your grandfather blew it all on a government wage slave. Tsk, tsk, tsk. I'm not believing any of this. You were flaunting that you can buy a car on credit and pay it off and get the points, and now you're not really "wealthy". See this is why you're not convincing, you keep changing your story.
You see your error here? You actually think that being able to charge a car on a credit card requires "wealth".
You don't have any understanding of what it meant to be middle class in America before your puppet masters destroyed all that. You simply have no idea.
It is sad.
Dude, you brought up the whole scenario and defined it as wealth.
I told you his humility was his best attribute.
Somehow he keeps forgetting.
It has always amused me how some people think confident, successful people lack "humility".
I have no reason to be "humble", Arthur. I am proud of what I have accomplished in my life.
But to you, that's "arrogance", right? Because I'm smart and happy and enjoyed my life and am not afraid to say so, I am "bragging" in your sad little world. Your horizons are so diminished that you actually think that a normal, middle class life is "bragging". How terribly, terribly sad that is.
Again, it doesn't have to be like that. We could have the American dream again if you people would only open your eyes and see what is plain to see. The people you worship took that dream away from you, Arthur and you let them do it.
We know already, you post it multiple times a day.
We get it. Your happy! Your wealthy! Your smart! Your charismatic! YOU! YOU! YOU! YOU! YOU! YOU! YOU!
Talk about redundancy?
Do you want a cracker?
Yes, Arthur, ME, ME, Me. It's all about me.
That's why I am a liberal. We are greedy people out for our own self interest.
I'm just trying to get through to you, but you won't see it, will you? Your masters have you in thrall, they snap their fingers and you spring to attention.
This post shows that you are a group thinker. You dislike people like me who are independent. Break away, Arthur. You do not need to run with the herd.
Oh, and Arthur: it's "you're" - contraction of "you are", not "your", which is the possessive form.
You do not know me at all.
I have no master, and I follow no one.
I would bet that I have much more Independence than you could ever fathom.
I do not dislike you, you are wrong. I disagree with you but that does not equate with any negative emotions towards you.
Of course you do. You follow Murdoch and the Kochs. You just don't know it.
You are the one who is lacking knowledge.
Somehow I think you have labeled me Republican. Wrong!
I do not fall into the left/right paradigm at all.
If I voice an opinion it is my own.
My candidates for 2012! Juggalo Justice!
No, that was Jimmy. Jim thinks an ordinary middle call person has immense wealth.
That is what is so very, very sad about all of this.
No, it was you. This was the post that started it.
"Unlike you I don't hide my identity. My main website is on my profile page and my real name, real address and real phone number are there. You could even do a credit check on me if you wanted to. I can still buy a car with my credit card, Jimmy, can you? No, probably not."
I really think you need to have a rest now.
Again, your world view is so impoverished you can't even relate to what was ordinary and normal just a few generations ago. You just do not know.
I agree we can't all know what's going on in your head, but I think we'll be fine not knowing. Thanks anyway.
Yet obviously you are not. You think the world I have spent most of my life in was a world of wealth, when in fact it was very ordinary middle class.
This is what the lies of the right have done to you and you just do not see it. You live in a diminished world, a world with little hope. No wonder so many of you turn to religion!
You help them keep you impoverished. By buying their lies, even helping to spread their lies, you assist them. It is very sad to see how easily they pull your strings. They wave the flag and lead you in prayer and you cheer. They inflame you with lies about mosques and health care and illegal aliens and you boo on cue.
You need to wake up. You are giving them everything.
Pcunix, I don't think about you. If it makes you happy that I do think you're wealthy or don't think you're wealthy, go for it. I don't care. I do know that you're liberal and you seem really wrapped up in yourself and I don't know what to say about that except that I feel sorry for you.
We've already covered that we don't see eye to eye, no discussion will persuade the other any different.
You don't think about me?
Of course you don't. But I think about people like you. I'd like you to have a better life. I'd like you to be happy and free. I'd like for you not to be following the lies of the wealthy. I'd wish that your life could be what so many of us had before your masters took control.
Then you can start by becoming a conservative and getting government out of my purse and off my back!
I doubt that you'd like me to be happy since you have already disparaged Jim, your daughter, and me for being wage slaves when you really know nothing about JIm or I. So backpeddling like Obama isn't going to get you anywhere with me. If you really want people to be happy, you'd let people alone and not tax them so much.
Yeah well said! But liberals don't want anyone to be happy they want everyone to be equally miserable and they want a huge government to make sure that it is so.
Another lie your masters feed you.
Liberals don't want misery. We want equal opportunity, fairness, tolerance - the kinds of things our Constitution promises us.
We want to take back this country from those who have stripped it of its riches, those who have looted the middle class, those who have lowered your horizons so much that you think an ordinary middle class life was "wealthy".
You are duped. Wake up.
You feel disparaged?
My, what thin skin.
I only want what is best for you. I want you to understand that your life can be better. This country can be better. But it never will be until we take back control from the rich.
You have a problems with reading comprehension. You are the one disparaging people. I'm just laughing at you because you're backpeddling like Obama so no I don't feel disparaged because you're so wrong. I also think you have problems but only sessions with a psychiatrist can help you. It's not normal for you to want the best for a stranger.
"It's not normal for you to want the best for a stranger."
Yes, it is. It's normal for a liberal and should be normal for everyone, but the selfish greed of your masters has poisoned you to think otherwise.
Amusingly enough, many of you profess strong Christian values - what would your Jesus have to say about wanting the best for strangers?
When we can provide a healthy, fair society where we are concerned for all, where greed takes a back seat to compassion, we create a strong society. Your masters hate that kind of society and have taught you that it is unnatural.
How tragic that is.
Now a non-believer like you is asking what would jesus do?
I think my conversation with you is tragic. Thanks for the laughs and the GOP will win in November. Hallelujah!
Ahh, the little wage slave thinks an ordinary middle class person was "wealthy". How sad that your aspirations are so low, but that's the way your puppet masters want you to feel, isn't it?
The world was different once. It could be that way again, but not if you keep believing lies.
Don't get mad just because we don't believe yours. Be more convincing.
"The world was different once"
Yes it was.
But not 30 years ago, we had Carter 1.
Carter 2 is even worse.
Stop lying, Brenda.
None of us are advocating wage equality. We all believe in capitalism and opportunity. We simply understand that it needs controls and that progressive taxation helps government do the necessary tasks we have given to it.
Fools of the Tea Party want to destroy the fabric of our society and turn us into a nation of a few wealthy people who watch from their walled cities while the poor crawl through garbage dumps.
You are incorrectly portraying liberal positions.
But that's typical of the right wing: lying is acceptable.
Really? How so? You only want to take some (more) wealth away from the productive and successful risk taking rich and give it to the poor, for no other reason than you like Obama think "at some point you made enough money".
That's the liberal position stated by your (let me be clear)head progressive Obama. So where is the lie?
That's not communism. It's not even socialism. It is progressive taxation, which is what we had when we had a strong economy and were the true masters of the world.
But then little brains listened to the lies of the rich and changed all that and it has been down hill ever since.
But, no, that's history: you guys don't know anything about that, do you?
How do you explain the increase in tax revenue when taxes are lowered?
Never mind you would buy a car with a credit card.
How do you explain that State and Federal Governments are cutting services?
We need more money. The wealthy need to pay more, just like they used to before fools bought GOP lies.
"How do you explain that State and Federal Governments are cutting services?"
They are finally getting smart?
Like someone down here told me: "I don't care if our High School loses its accreditation - my kid is never going to amount to anything anyway".
Cut, cut, cut. Turn out the mental patients to the streets. Let the homeless freeze, let the hungry children scream for food. Let the bridges fall down, cut back on police and fire fighters. Put sixty kids in the classroom.
That's Jimmy's ideal world, isn't it, Jimmy?
Cut some services so others can survive instead of all services being cut because of lack of funds.
It just goes on and on.
Or tax the rich progressively like we used to before fools changed that.
Which leads to less revenue.
On and on you go.
therein lies the problem...parents not parenting their children, or believing in them.
as far as police and deadly force go, that happens a lot here in arizona. one time an officer fired into the back of a woman's car who was trying to fill a false prescription at a walgreens drive-thru. she was unarmed and had a toddler in the back seat he killed her, which is a misuse of deadly force as far as i am concerned. what, he didn't have any stop-sticks in his trunk? cops are trained to STOP the perp at all costs, but really, wielding a switchblade against three armed officers doesn't seem like a threat and could have been handled in some other way, like with a taser or tear gas or something.
as far as illegal immigrants go, here in arizona, they are very well organized and have their rights championed by organizations like chicanos por la causa, who are advocates for those who have no voice, such as illegal immigrants or impoverished citizens, mostly of hispanic backgrounds. as such, these people are not backing down and their numbers are growing, so to answer the OP's question, there may be some truth to that. there's a quote that goes: "Riot is the language of the unheard". i forget who said that but judging by what is going on here, and beginning to go on in arizona, they were right.
Riot is not the language of the unheard. It's the language of the violent. There are better ways to be heard. Violence solves nothing in these matters. Throwing rocks at police that are there to do their job just further reinforces the belief that they are violent. In order to change the minds of the people, and show that these people want to be here, to be contributing, law abiding members of society, they need to show that they are above the violence, that they are not the violent criminals that news stories report them to be.
At close range, many consider a knife more dangerous than a firearm.
i can see that. i don't know the particulars of this instance though. even so, why not shoot him in the kneecaps or something?
Unless you have been in a situation like that, you can never really understand. The time to react is often fractions of a second. I am not a police officer, but I have known several in my life. A few had been in situations where they had to use deadly force. None of them were happy about it, they didn't like having to do it. It's not like they get off on killing people. In fact, many of them have long lasting psychological problems because of it. They do what they have to do, the act quickly when they have to, and they make the best decisions they can. I am speaking of honest, decent police officers, by the way. I know that there are terrible, corrupt police officers all over the spectrum, from those that engage in illegal activities themselves, to the officers that use unnecessary excessive force. For the most part, though, police officers are decent, dedicated, hard working people that put their lives on the line every day are are often ill treated, abused and hated for it.
These are some pretty broad generalizations. There are many well-documented cases of police abuse around the country. But from what I have heard so far, this is not one of them. No one was there. But that doesn't mean you give police officers a pass. We'll see what the investigation turns up but if the were at close range with a guy with a knife,lethal force would appear to be justified.
Perhaps that was an option. We will never know if race was a causal factor in how the police officer reacted. But with only the information we have so far, dealing with a knife wielding person at close range should permit use of lethal force. A police officer should not have to unnecessarily risk his of her life in that circumstance. In my opinion. This is very different from Rodney king, or worse still, the execution slaying of Oscar grant.
The tax system is progressive now and has always been! If you ask me that system isn't applying equality under the law, it is favoring one group over another and the government is the agent that decides. That's not American! But little minds seem to think 47% of workers paying no tax and the top 1% of earners paying half of all treasury revenues is fine.
And this country never did well under progressive leadership! Every single progressive that led this nation drove the car into the ditch!
"Liberals don't want communism. We just want to keep the rich from exploiting the helpless and to create a fair and just society where the playing field is as even as it can be."
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
I think we know what you want.
Jim, you don't know anything about what I want or about what any liberal wants.
You are the type of person I steadfastly ignore in real life. I don't bother to try to engage you in conversation because your mind is made up on everything ahead of time. You never see shades of gray, do not understand nuance and are not worth my wasting my time on.
"You never see shades of gray, do not understand nuance and are not worth my wasting my time on."
But you did anyway.
Chasing your tail.
I said "in real life", Jimmy. Your poor reading skills surface again, or is it deliberate? That's typical play for you, isn't it - pull things out of context to create false impressions?
And yet again...
Yes, James, yet again. I have told you before that whenever you say something ridiculous, I'm going to respond to it. My mission in life is to point out your fibs, faulty reasoning, out of context quotes, evasions and outright nonsense.
Well, yours and those of a few other conservative non-thinkers.
Again, since you have such difficulty comprehending: I ignore your type of person in real life. Here I will smear your words back on your face any chance I get.
Say something smarmy again, Jimmy. Here, try "And yet you persist" so that everyone can see how well you read.
I'm really typing.
You are really responding.
Seems real to me.
Care to explain how all of this is just a figment of my or your imagination?
This should be good..
Oh so typical Jim Hunter.
Let's split the hair even more, because Jimmy can never look the fool, even when he has plainly painted himself in a corner.
You are so correct, Jimmy: nobody EVER distinguishes Internet forum activity from real life. That's just some idiotic concept I created just now.
Let's get back to your lies about liberals and communism, shall we?
I'm a capitalist. I have owned or partnered in a number of businesses throughout my life. I have made more than enough money to live in an upscale neighborhood, raised my kids and put them through college, paid my taxes and participated in the democratic process.
Most of the other liberals I know have similar stories. What distinguishes us from you is that we have compassion for others and do not believe that if it's good for business it's good for America. Unlike you, we know the history of corporate abuse, the necessity of government protecting its citizens from the robber barons.
We understand that government is necessary and valuable. We understand that the ultra wealthy need to pay more and that when they DID pay more, we had a vibrant and healthy economy. We see through the lies that Murdoch and the Kochs feed to people like you.
But you can't do that, can you, Jimmy?
Just curious, why are you wasting your time on me?
Do you not have the courage of your convictions?
As for your tale of wealth and prosperity, like you said the internet is an imaginary place with imaginary stories.
Your defense of yourself against the implication that you want communism is a bit late, it is typical of the seminar people to attack the messenger and not the message.
Thanks for your history no matter how imaginary it may be.
I waste my time "refudiating" (to use one of your heroes words) you because I hate seeing your lies go unchallenged.
My history is imaginary??? What's the matter, Jimmy? Your notions of the world can't conceive of successful liberals? There are plenty of us - but you can't even imagine that, can you? In your imaginary world, we are all welfare beggars.
I never was "wealthy". I did well, and still do well enough, although this recession (caused by GOP policies) has hurt my income significantly, but I have been PMR (Pretty Much Retire)d since I was 55, so don't really care that much about money anymore. We have enough.
Unlike you I don't hide my identity. My main website is on my profile page and my real name, real address and real phone number are there. You could even do a credit check on me if you wanted to. I can still buy a car with my credit card, Jimmy, can you? No, probably not.
Why would anyone buy a car with a credit card?
I get a better interest rate with cash.
I'm merely pointing out a difference in purchasing power.
Should I add that I can then pay it off completely when the bill arrives or is that something you have never heard of in your life?
How much cash can you put your hands on, Jimmy? Are you one of those not so well off conservatives or one of the rich ones? Which is it, Jimmy, are you too greedy to pay taxes or is it hero worship of the rich so that you believe every lie they tell you?
Are you part of the problem or part of the duped?
Do you have anything other than "look how rich I can portray myself" bull?
No I am not rich.
If you want to buy a car with a credit card and pay the interest on it for a month until the bill comes due, be my guest.
Not very economically smart but then again you are a democrat.
Jealous, Jimmy? You hate liberals enough already, it must kill you to know one who has so much more than you do.
I'm simply pointing out your lies, Jimmy.
I'm not jealous that someone would want others to believe he is rich.
I'm astounded that a business owner thinks its better to pay interest instead of keeping that money for other things.
Like I said, the internet is full of imaginary stories.
I guess you don't qualify for credit cards that pay you for using them, Jimmy.
I don't pay any interest on my credit cards. I get a few hundred dollars from them every month. But you wouldn't understand that and probably don't even believe it.
You know what is sad, Jimmy? It's sad that you think I am "bragging". I'm not - I'm just describing what an ordinary middle class lifestyle was like for those of us who are old enough to remember life before corporate liars duped you all into lowering their taxes.
That's what is sad, Jimmy. People like you helped them destroy the American dream.
Took you long enough.
Did you have to research this last little bit about credit cards?
I'm very impressed with your buying power.
Is that what you want to hear?
You can believe that just as I believe you.
Sad, Jimmy, very sad. You probably never have been able to pay your credit cards when the bills come, so you just don't know that there is no interest to pay. You don't know about cash back cards, either, apparently. They are a tool smart people use - we charge everything, pay it all off and collect the rewards. But you don't know that world, do you, Jimmy?
Again, it is so sad. Ground under the boots of your masters, but you keep licking those boots and voting as they tell you, right Jimmy? You are a GOOD little wage slave, aren't you?
The world could be different, Jimmy. We could take back control. We had it once and we lost it, thanks to good little boot lickers who believe the lies.
You COULD have a good life, Jimmy. It doesn't have to be like this.
"You probably never have been able to pay your credit cards when the bills come"
The bills don't come because I don't use credit cards.
Its your story Daddy Warbucks, tell it any way you want.
I bet you were awarded the Medal of Honor too.
Its nice to know there are people like you around.
I have to go to work now, maybe you can convince flightkeeper that you are a walking, talking Ft Knox.
But I doubt you will be able to convince her either, she is intelligent.
Typical Jim Hunter. Outright lies about what people actually say - so NORMAL for you, isn't it Jimmy?
Did your puppet masters teach you that, too? They are good at it, I admit - maybe you just git it by imitation. After all, imitation is rthe sincerest form of flattery and you are a GOOD little wage slave, aren't you?
Yep typical, I feel no need to lie about what I am.
Its called self esteem and being secure.
Maybe some one forgot to hug you as a child.
Po widdle feller...
But you know his daughter was smart to go into government. Now she's a wage slave that's being supported by the taxpayer.
Oh, but you DO lie, Jim. Nobody knows who you really are - sock puppet, rich man, poor man, is that really your face, who knows? Is Jim even your real name? No way to tell, because you don't want anyone to know, right?
You could be Rupert Murdoch for all we know.
No thats not my face.
Yes thats my name.
No I don't care if you believe me.
Do you need a hug?
Are you one of the top 10 percent that controls 93 percent of the assets Jim or are you just one of the millions that are brainwashed by them? I think the latter. Why do people always oppose their own self interest? Especially if they can't afford to do so????
I think you have a problem with Cuba but then I can imagine where that inbuilt ignorance of a country comes from.
Quite sad really.
Cubans have a problem with Cuba, I guess they don't think its such a paradise even with the free health care.
I have no problem at all with Cuba, it's a socialist paradise! I think all the democrats should go live there. I'm sure they'll be welcome with open arms being that they have a free and open border that welcomes immigrants.
I know, so many millions of Cubans leaving everyday too! It must really get up your noses knowing a tiny country has withstood right wing amercan imperialism (has it escaped you that Batista, a military dictator was backed by the US durng the Cuban revolution?) and over 70 assassination attempts on its president for the last 50 years. A tiny country that has a better health system and a more succeful literacy rate than any other caribbean country, and one that puts the US to shame.
Maybe you two are confusing your own capitalist ideals and assuming everyone wants the same as you which appears to be a desire to gather up material goods and build your own fortress to keep lesser beings away from you?
I think you've summed up the anti-immigration position well and exposed its hypocrisy.
I had an ancestor on the Mayflower, too - John Cooke. Some of my other ancestors were already here when the Mayflower landed - they were Cheyenne.
I'm all for LEGAL immigration - but not ILLEGAL immigration.
The Mayflower was full of illegal immigrants.
another example of why "illegal immigrants" is a nonsense term.
1- how can it be illegal to move 20 feet north, or 20 feet south.
2- what the heck is an immigrant anyway? Just some guy trying to find a better life elsewhere, and that place just HAPPENS to be called by a different name.
If someone was coming at you with a knife and you had a gun, please don't say you wouldn't shoot them.
Don't look now, but something just flew right over your head.
What he would do is rather irrelevant to what standards we apply to our police officers.
Does it matter? As long as they vote democrat after they get amnesty.
Under Obama you have to prove you have health insurance, but you don't have to prove you're a citizen! Only in the democrats America!
blame everything on obama?
Hopefully their reign will be quite short, it certainly wasn't sweet.
You must be one of the top 10 percent that controls 93 percent of the US assets. If you aren't your support of the Tea Party views is against your own personal interest.
But there are a lot of brainwashed people in the world.
"Under Obama you have to prove you have health insurance, but you don't have to prove you're a citizen! Only in the democrats America!"
The solution that Canada, France, the UK, and many other countries have found for this is to offer universal health care. You don't have to prove you have health insurance, and you don't have to prove you're a citizen. Believe it or not, but these countries have survived for a long time and have not been bankrupted by the cost of paying for health care for foreigners. This is the system Obama would favor if he could get it passed. The "everyone has to have health insurance" is a concession he made to Republicans in an attempt to get their support because they couldn't get behind a plan that didn't include kickbacks to their buddies in the health insurance industry.
Everyone of those countries is in economic jepordy except perhaps Germany. France is now on strike because they want to raise the retirement age from 60 to 62. Greece has already had riots in the streets over their government's inability to deliver on their promises.
One thing is certain, America isn't Europe, the federal government has no business dictating how the health of the states' citizens is addressed.
And has it escaped you that the crooked Ponzi schemes perpertrated by Madoff and his ilk or the Sub Prime con of selling mortgages to people that could never afford them contributed to debt mountain that spread across the west? Greed is endemic and banks have free reign to chase profit and leave people scattered in their wake. Greek, French and UK govts are no different to the US in that debt was kept hidden from view until it was obvious that managing this debt (brought on by this insatiable greed) was going to be very difficult without harming the people.
You mention France and Greece but you completel fail to mention the reasons why their citizens are up in arms. It's not raising the reiirement age or failure to deliver promises but it is the gross mismanagement of the economy thanks to hapless politicians, financiers and business people plunging their country into debt. And to redress this governments punish the people who played no part in the crisis by making them work longer, cutting pensions(how many bankers/corporate leaders/senior politicians end their career with a small pension?), forcing people to work for longer, cutting services, slashing health budgets and removing help from the most vulnerable.
As for your last statement I guess that just about sums up what you think of your fellow citizen. A govt that has no business looking after the welfare of its people? Breathtaking. Are you seriously happy to wash your hands of people who may die for no toher reason than because they're poor?
The US has so many good things I admire but as long as I live I will never understand a country where so many citizens do not want a unviversal helathcare for all of its people. This defies all logic for me.
Are the French having those problems? Wow.
Well, what we're having is apparently (and I say apparently because I don't know all the facts yet) similar to the Rodney King incident, when civil rights activists meted out "justice" without considering all the details (Rodney King had resisted law enforcement officials several times and exhibited really erratic aggressive behavior, but the person who filmed the incident only caught the tail-end of it, and we didn't hear the audio of THAT, even, if I remember correctly; and THEN the people who rioted killed OTHER people in the name of "justice".)
So....do these people even CARE to know the details, or are they just "jumping the gun" again because the guy's an immigrant?
I don't know if I'm allowed to post the story. The link is below although it might be snipped sooner or later.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me … ory?page=1
Who attacked whom?
Fox News--LAPD attacks media and demonstrators.
Ralph, this is a different matter, I know that it's all mixed up in your head but do try to stay up to date.
"the marches were peaceful until this evening when the LAPD used force to break up the crowd"
This sentence infuriates me. ... I suppose that marching to reform your government is illegal now? AND the police are allowed to break up the marches with force?
Reminds me of a "the offspring" song: "Beat all the n***ers!!! Beat whoever you see!! Don't need a reason!! WE'RE LAPD!!"
Anyways, this is the reason why I'm against government: people voicing their opinions peacefully and get shot with rubber bullets.
I think you are right, it seems in the cards for us. ; thanks for the link, was interesting.
I think that reacting to the problem NOW is part of the problem... as we're already seeing in the forum, the arguments about this event, already past, are developing into "camps" classification of race (from the OP "immigrant neighborhood"), statements of bigotry, snowballing our dislike or disdain for each other, the alleged "groups" and classes involved...
I am somewhat disturbed by the use of the knife vs gun analogy because I know the person who posted has written material about peace and such on hubpages and is likely only be "responding" to information from an event that she might see as "wrong" or that never should have gone so far in the first place.
I think that after bad events, especially violent ones, to argue in certain "reactive" ways or to respond with only the outcome in our vision often leads to "sustained" violence. That is, the violence never leaves our heads...so it will come about once more, soon, in another outlet or event - we perpetrate this stuff by our insistence in arguing about the right and wrong of maily WRONG events.
Anyone drunk and flashing a knife in front of a policeman is first and foremost, an idiot. Being drunk is no excuse for carrying a weapon and flashing it around.
Has nothing to do with race. It's about a pathetically stupid behavior.
In regard to linking this to the race/immigration issue, any excuse will do, I guess.
It has to do with a large immigrant population who thinks they can cause a riot and attack a police station because they think Jamenes was killed unnecessarily without thinking about the cops who were being threatened. The weird thing about it is that someone called the cops because the guy was threatening people with the switchblade and yet they turn on the cops who were trying to help. That doesn't sound unreasonable to you?
Although the two may be related in perception of some people's minds, the incidents themselves are not. Otherwise the police would have used a far different tactic in protecting themselves and the public.
Stupidity is as stupidity does. I'm sorry that Jimenez lost his life, but it was his own irresponsibility in his pathetic choices. It wasn't that he was latino, it was because he chose to get drunk and flash a knife, threatening the public and police.
Daniel, I agree with you but that community doesn't which is why they attacked the police station.
And I agree with your observation, which is why the media and everyone else needs to reinforce how bad their perception is of this very sad situation. It may not change their minds now, but it could influence for the better other possible scenarios as they may arise.
The community doesn't trust the police. If they did there wouldn't be a riot. No doubt, LA police are understaffed and overworked. Of course the Tea Party wants less law inforcement and complains about their pay. The Tea Party hates teachers too.
Sharron Angle thinks social security is welfare. The Tea Party people are fruitcakes.
And, unfortunately, police are often ill-trained and badly supervised. Put a young kid in a difficult situation for the first time and it is all too easy for him or her to overreact. I am not saying that happened here, but it easily could be part of the story.
Of course if that young officer is also one whose mind has been filled with anti-immigrant "opinions" by Tea Party folks and others, it just makes it worse.
"And, unfortunately, police are often ill-trained and badly supervised. Put a young kid in a difficult situation for the first time and it is all too easy for him or her to overreact. I am not saying that happened here, but it easily could be part of the story."
You're not saying it happened here but you want us to be aware that its a possibility that it could have?
It could also be a possibility that the officer is well trained and supervised and did exactly what he was trained to do.
Brenda....have you seen what happened to Rodney King?
I've seen the whole video countless times.....and in each case officers are blatanly abusing their power.... They could have killed King....and being under the influence or driving irratically does not justify this type of behavior...
To then use "immigrant" as a synonym for "undocumented immigrant", as Lady Love did, is both reckless and ridiculous.....
Until the facts come out in this specific case, I will refrain from commenting further....
I have had too many experiences with law enforcement who simply make things up, and who lie blatanlty on police reports.....
Did he come after the officers with a knife, or is that just what they wanted you to see?
We shall find out....
I remember seeing on tv what happened to Rodney King, yes, but it was of course just the last few minutes or seconds of the video that was shown, and like I said, I don't think there was audio with it, so I dunno what kind of verbal debate was going on.
But no matter what, it didn't sanction the riots that happened after the unwanted verdict was brought. This was, from what I can tell, a situation where the rioters not only killed and maimed innocent people, but it was used to push for black power politically, and forced the courts to render a different verdict, did it not?
This case here, yes, we'll see.
Maybe the police couldn't get close enough to the perp to taser him; maybe he was threatening the lives of others besides the police......
The rampart polce station is in the heart of a heavily Hispanic neighborhood. Please read "Hispanic" here. That does not necessarily mean immigrant. Community relations with the police have been strained for years and about ten years ago there was a big scandal involving Rampart and bad policing. Since that time there has been an effort to place Hispanic officers in the station. You may notice that the three officers involved are themselves Hispanic.
There is always an issue over what level of force is appropriate. It may be argued that the use of deadly force against a knife is inappropriate, they should have maimed, not killed. I hesitate to judge because as yet I don't know enough but I'm close enough to the streets here in L.A. that I will find out and may even post on it.
All I can say at this time is that the community has not had a good relationship with this station and, rightly or wrongly, this was the spark that started a flame.
The Riots in L.A. were triggered by the beating of Rodney King....
But that was not the cause....
Mike Davis, the author of City of Quartz, wrote a great article about the stresses and strains in L.A. that busted through the surface for those three days....
There are reasons....you may not like them...but there are valid reasons for why these riots broke out.... And until we cut to the root of these issues, we will continue to have problems...
Remember....it wasn't the beating that triggered the riots....it was the fact that the officers responsible moved their trials to Simi Valley (which is mostly white, and has a large police population) and they were acquitted......
The lack of equal justice can cause great pain.....do you not agree?
No matter what, the riots cannot be justified! EVERY criminal trial has an option for an appeal process, correct? Sometimes we all have to wait for justice to be done. Instead, those rioters used vengeance, and set the stage for vengeance to be a common tactic these days!
People were killed or maimed in those riots. Yes, there might've be REASONS, but not EXCUSES. Those who committed the crimes were, from what I read, also brought to justice, but that didn't make it right in the first place, it didn't bring back those innocent people who were killed etc..
We all need to survive decently and we gotta share, what happened to justice of caring and we are all becoming selfish.
Conservatives are selfish - or the rich ones are. The poor ones are just led by the nose and believe every lie the rich tell them. They don't have enough to be selfish - but they don't have enough knowledge to see how they are being duped.
Like Jim. Not rich, he says. But he wants to be, I bet, and he worships those who are and listens to every lie that falls from their lips.
Socialized taxation will work best, tax the rich, that is the way to go.
Yeah? How much do you make? How about you putting your money where your mouth is? How about Obama giving up the bulk of his 5 million and living on only 250,000? How about Al Gore giving up his houses and cutting his carbon footprint "for the good of society"?
Progressive liberals are the biggest hypocrites on the planet! They simply want to manage everybody elses' wealth while keeping their own!
No, 10 percent control 93 percent of the assets. They can afford it and society has an absolute right to tax the wealthy. Even Reagan left the rate for the wealthy at a much higher level than for others. Even Reagan realized that the rich had a bigger responsibility. Tell us, Lady Love, are you in the top 10 percent? If you aren't you are brainwashed. And you are campaigning against your own self interest, the interest of mainstreet, and the interest of society as a whole.
I love this argument. If you are conservative, but not wealthy, you must be brainwashed. If you are conservative and a female, you must be brainwashed, etc, etc, etc. I am not wealthy, I am not brainwashed and I am a conservative female! I support the rights of hard working Americans, small businesses, and smaller government, lower government spending, lower taxes for everyone. We would all have much lower taxes if so much money wasn't being shelled out due to illegal immigration.
There are many such myths about illegal immigration.
http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2010/ … _west.aspx
illegal immigration, once again, is a nonsense term. Just because someone moves 20 miles north to live a better life does NOT in anyway change living conditions for people (at least, not in a sense that could truly ruin people's lives).
Think about it - if I move from Ohio to California, and get a job as (whatever), then i put someone else out of work, supposedly. But for whatever reason, no one gets mad at me. If, instead, I were to just go on welfare, people would probably be mad at me, but not nearly as much as if some other person, who happened to be born on some chunk of land called "Mexico".
We're all immigrants from the great beyond. Every time a baby is born, someone will eventually be competing with that child for a job.
The term "illegal alien" is nonsense.
But there are so many would-be latrine cleaners and dish washers that are out of jobs as a result of illegal immigration. Perhaps you are just better situated than them.
it's not a matter of "me being better situated than someone else". That's a complete cop-out response.
I said "we're all immigrants from the great beyond"... then you said, basically, "you're just saying that cuz you're rich".
I think that's all i have to say.
I think you misunderstood my post. I was making fun of people that think that illegal immigrants are going to take away their jobs.
Perhaps you are just looking for a scapegoat. If illegal immigration provided us with economic benefits, would you be in favor of it?
LOL - These guys are soo funny. America was built on slave labor. From the first colony onwards. Illegal immigrants are the latest incarnation. Without them, the economy would collapse completely. Imagine if a fruit picker was paid $40 per hour. McDonald's junkburgers at $20 each
You could get rid of them all in a week and "deal with the issue that is causing taxed to increase." I can tell you exactly where all the illegal immigrants are on a given day. Look for the lowest paid jobs in the state - there they are. 500 acre farms that have 6 people on the books?
slave labor was only economical because of federal subsidies: the fugitive slave act and other horrendously abusive government laws made slave ownership feasible.
When a slave runs away, hunting him down and recapturing him, AND then proving that he's not a freedman -- all of this is part of the "cost" of owning a slave.
The slave acts all made it cheaper to own slaves than it normally would have been.
Round'em up... ship'em out.
I would sweep the entire city for illegals and toss 'em back over the border. Mexico is a failed state, narcos will run it soon, no sense in wasting our money good after bad in supporting their currution.
Militarize the borders, cease the flow of all crime and illegals, then chuk'em quick as we can find em nation-wide.
Where was everyone BEFORE they were born? Were they in the US?
Then we're all immigrants from some sort of "the great beyond". And each one of us has pushed someone else out of a job -- that's how economics works.
It's nonsense to think that "because I came out of my mother on this chunk of land, I'm free to move about the world looking for better opportunities than people who were born over on that chunk of land".
Nonsense on stilts, I might demand.
This overall concept of choice in health will not work, there are lots of downside, but universal health is better, yet so far. We have more choices yes here in the US, but then look at AUS, UK etc., health care is almost universal.
Must not have been much of a riot… Didn’t even make the headlines (yet).
Point a lethal weapon at a police officer - you will die. This man must have been suicidal. It's a sad incident and it should be investigated, but it seems pretty clear the cop did what he was supposed to do.
Although I wasn't there, I wonder if a Taser might have been a viable option. Of course just second guessing now.
It may have been had one been available. These were bicycle cops who generally do not carry non-lethal weapons. I'm not sure whether a TASER would have been used anyway. I've seen video footage of attackers continuing after being tased.
"The area where this incident happened is an immigrant neighborhood."
Bigotry in this sentence.
It is the reason it isn't the headlines.
God forbid the public see this in the middle of illegal immigration debates.
As fun as it is parrying the lies of the boot licking wage slaves, I have a book I have to go read. That's part of the life style of the "wealthy" middle class - we read books when we aren't jet setting off to foreign lands
See you all later.
Fly, fly to the land of make believe Pcunix.
Okay....maybe it's just me...but in this situation you have:
Three trained police officers with guns drawn and a drunk guy waving a knife.
Now if the drunk guy had a gun I can understand the officers shooting to kill...but he didn't. He had a knife and was drunk.
Why did they not shoot him in the leg or the arm or one of the other many non lethal parts of someone's body?
I mean, we do train police officers in how to handle and shoot a weapon effectively...do not we not?
We do train officers in how to disarm an assailant don't we?
The officer who fired was a 13 year veteran not some frightened rookie. So why the deadly force?
Again, this was a situation with THREE armed officers and ONE drunk, knife wielding assailant.
Now, the drunk guy was obviously breaking the law, threatening people's safety and a danger to himself and others. He needed to be subdued and arrested but why such immediate use of deadly force?
After all the police credo is supposed to be "To serve and protect". They are not military, they are police. Deadly force is supposed to be a last resort not a first line of defense.
Have YOU ever tried to shoot a knife-wielding, moving attacker in the leg? A knife is a deadly weapon.
We ask police officers to risk their lives daily, we should not require that they do so recklessly.
Ron is right. In fact, police are trained to aim for the trunk (abdomen area) of a person. It is the largest, and easiest target, and often times, the assailant will survive the shooting. Attempting to shoot a moving target in the leg is difficult. They don't aim for the head, and shooting someone in the hand may seem easy in the movies, but it just isn't.
if someone is coming at me with a knife, and i have a gun...
... then that idiot is most likely going to die. No qualms there.
If the officers had a way to disarm him without shooting him or recklessly endangering their own safety, I believe they would have done so.
This is all ridiculous! First off, if someone is drunk, charging at me with a bloody knife, and after telling them to drop it, they don't...I am well within my rights to defend myself, no matter what race they are. It's called self defense. The police were doing their jobs. It isn't a matter of race. The officer who fired the shots was Hispanic!!! As far as the immigration issue goes, my family came over here around the turn of the century. They came through legally. Got documented, got their citizenship LEGALLY, learned English, didn't demand special treatment, worked hard every day, and were proud to call themselves American.
Actually, it depends on the state. In some places, if you coud get away from the person, you are required to take that action, not defend yourself.
Obviously it's a bit different for a police officer.
I am short, I do not run fast, I really don't want to be stabbed in the back by a drunken, knife-wielding person. I would stand and defend myself. I wouldn't imagine a court anywhere in the US convicting me of anything, except for maybe California, where all the nutjobs seem to end up.
oh, i'm not advocating riots or violence. just answering the OP's question.
This post has gone on some weird tangents. perhaps a little background may help.
The part of L.A. referred to is familiar to those of you who saw the movie "Volcano" You may recall a park, Mcarthur Park, with a large lake in the middle that in the movie started boiling. That is part of the Westlake area where the riots took place. It is a *Hispanic* area. not an immigrant area.
I am an immigrant. I came here from Wales 20 years ago. I am a Welsh/American. My children are born and raised here, they are Americans. This issue is not about immigration though there are plenty of interests who would like to make it one. This is about the poor relations the police have had with this community for many years. The LAPD have made efforts to address the problem but 3 years ago there was a cinqo de mayo parade in this neighborhood that erupted in violence and even TV cameramen got beaten by police.
I'm not putting blame here, I know people on both sides of the fence but just as the Black community of South Central L.A. was ready to blow up over Rodney King, The Hispanic communities are ready to blow up over real or perceived injustice.
Perhaps you don't understand the definition of "Legal or Illegal". It is the reason for the term when applied to someone from another country who did not walk in through the front door but instead chose to sneak in like a criminal does when he trespasses. Every country has borders and every country has laws, it does not matter the reasons you came through the back door, you cannot break our laws, period! If you break our laws your title is Illegal Alien because you are not an American citizen. This is not nonsense it makes perfect sense. Not all who sneak in were criminals before they crossed illegally, however, it does not make you any less an illegal because you were law abiding before, you broke our countries laws and that is the issue. Were our countries history different on the flip side they prospered and had jobs, they would be just as harsh if not more so to keep us out, so don't kid yourself, the impact on all our lives with undocumented, some violent criminals, most hard working is no less a threat on all our resources and all our lives. My ancestors went through the proper immigration procedure to become an American, loyal to America they gave up allegiance to former country, ask any legal immigrant Mexican if he is loyal to USA only or if he has a dual citizenship!
Most are dual and equal number do not want citizenship, just the visa to work. THis is main reason they sneak across because they don't plan on staying so they do not want to spend time and money to come legally. Sorry this is so long, but check it for yourself, ask both legal & illegals they will tell you.
Please get a good vocational education so that illegal immigrants don't take away the only jobs you are qualified for. God bless.
just because "every country has laws" doesn't make it right.
Why am I allowed to move around looking for a better life, but that guy can't?
The issue is that undocumented immigration does provide benefits...in many different ways.
While there are private corporations, like the L.A. company recently caught, and individuals who make a fortune from smuggling people into the country.. In the case I mention, this refers to 400 or so people brought from Thailand to work on Hawaiian fields...promised good jobs and wages by Americans recruiting them from abroad... But when the new migrants arrived, their papers were taken, and they (as often is the case) were forced to live in a veritable sweatshop-prison, that otherwise looked like an ordinary middle-class town in an overall "Americana" street...
These people were not collecting welfare, or public funds...and therefore not contributing to local, statewide, or national debt.
I can cite other cases of this type of abuse going on here in Los Angeles, the largest sweatshop city in the nation...
i don't think race in this case was a factor, since the officers appeared to all be hispanic. what happened to Rodney King was definitely racist though.
Evan, what is nonsensical about the term "illegal immigrant"?
Immigrant: a person who comes to a country where they were not born in order to permanently settle there.
Illegal: Prohibited by law. Prohibited by official rules.
nonsense? helloooo...what is so wrong about asking outsiders to respect our laws and come in through proper channels, hm?
and whoever said our borders are secure needs to have their head examined.
so, where does it stop? how many illegal immigrants do we let in? all of them? seriously, MILLIONS and MILLIONS? so we can have cheap hamburgers?
Arizona is the loser ultimately... Many apartment owners, store operators, and others have lost business. Businesses have closed.
For the amount of tax dollars that undocumented and those who were afraid/upset at being potentially targeted, I think Arizona is going to fall on hard times...
Yet, I will argue here that I believe that "undocumented' will still exist in Arizona.... But they will be of the type who are confined to their locations....working in sweatshops and the like....those who did not simply "jump a fence"....but those found confined to a house in Alhambra California, and those working on plantations in Hawaii...brought in by American recruiters.....lied to... But they won't be on the street to be seen or "profiled"........
What of prostitution? Undocumented women smuggled into the country from Russia, Mexico and elsewhere won't be walking the streets.........what about the brothels?
Hard to profile and report what isn't seen openly...
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