Was 9/11 an Inside job?
Geeeeez, I swear, I JUST saw this!!:
Sunday, September 11th, 2011
Was President Bush Complicit In 9/11?
by Sherwood Ross
"Was President George W. Bush complicit in the 9/11 attacks? That’s a question that will not go away on this 10th anniversary of those terrible events.
If many people continue to wonder about it, perhaps it’s because the Bush regime did not call for a prompt investigation into 9/11 and subsequently obstructed its work. There is a fresh report that some information turned up by the FBI in Florida was held back on direct orders from Mr. Bush."
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/09/11 … it-in-911/- Holmes221bposted 13 years ago
0Here is a link to news of the flag burning.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne … ondon.htmlFunny....this reminds me of normal Americans saying We are not all Tea-Baggers!!! We don't want extremism!!!
Truth is, we are reaping what we have sown. Not us, but our shadow gvt.....
They do things in our name that are HORRENDOUS. Sadistic and Evil :BUSHCO. Abhu Gahrib and Guantanamo.
Exxon/Mobil/Bp...KOCH BROS........
I can remember from when I was a KID.....Lumumba. Vietnam.
We need to stop. People have a right to want us gone. The Empire has no clothes!!
'For me, the 9-11 Commemoration is a repeat of the original outrage and therefore very painful to witness. The original attack was mass trauma brainwashing perpetrated by a traitor class within America. Now, they're reinforcing the original programming. It is all designed to perpetuate war and strip Americans of their civil rights under the bogus pretext of a terrorist threat.
Americans are acquiescing in their own enslavement, and many seem willing to go along. I think the majority know 9-11 was an inside job but are afraid to say so. 9-11 is being spun as a mini "holocaust" - a cathartic event that "changed everything." Illuminati Satanist Lady Gaga is asking the question, "What will you do to remember?"
How about punishing the real perpetrators? An atrocity such as 9-11 does not require remembering. It requires justice!'
Henry MakowI guess it is possible that a group of controllers are responsible but the only useful point in this is that it requires justice.
It does not need a secret conspiracy to be true enough - in that the so called war on terror is all about control of people and international profits. I find it hard to imagine that any normal individual has any argument with any of the people on the other end of the war. Also the 'people' are not authorising any of the actions carried out in their name. So who does it all gain in the end ?"So who does it all gain in the end ?"
That is the million dollar question.
"Are you sure they are Muslims???"
This is why I ask:
"A group hired by FBI to create phony intelligence to sell to the US government arrested by German counter-terrorists as “Al Qaeda” cell. “Mossad busted in Al Qaeda sting, same group responsible for creating bin Laden videos and tapes taking credit for 9/11.”
There is now proof that the U.S./Israeli SITE Intelligence Group is active in creating groups who support terrorists."
Pretending to be al-qaeda, angry muslims...when they are not.So again if this was an inside job. Who had anything in this country to gain?? NOBODY
So again if this was an inside job. Who had anything in this country to gain?? NOBODY
On the contrary, think of how much it has changed your country! Needless wars, the Patriot Act, The Department of Homeland Security, the increased surveillance to name but a few.
I bet if you put your mind to it you can come up with a much longer list.True, but 9-11 was used as a pretext for invading Iraq by people who had plenty to gain--Halliburton, Blackhawk and other contractors who have made billions in Iraq and Afghanistan. Israel also believed it was in its interest for the US to invade Iraq as I recall. Now they want us to attack Iran or give them a green light to do so.
I'm not suggesting, at all, that 9-11 was an "inside job." That's ludicrous.Ralph, it is not ludicrous. What is ludicrous is your denial of a mountain of circumstantial evidence. An imploded building requires explosives. Squibbs which can only result from explosions, were seen coming out of one of the towers, even though the explosives were place far inside the building.
No, actual. It requires a catastrophic loss of sport followed by a sudden increase in load. This is exactly what Pop Mech covered. The only reason such an event has not been seen before it that it had never happened before.
yes, and while that may be true, you need to explain WTC7. It was described over and over again by reporters and witnesses on the news, that the building was leaning signalling the potential for it to come down. Something that is leaning is not going to suddenly stand up straight and then drop down into its footprint. Simply will not happen. It might topple over, or even break in half at a stress point. But it will NOT drop into its footprint. That defies the laws of gravity.
A large building looks scary with a small lean, and rubble tends to get funneled by the main supports, not all fall to the ground in a straight line.
It may seem odd, but many true things are odd. I would not assume it was... what, straightened by a magic force field and blown up?I didn't think it looked like it was leaning one way or the other and it didn't look all that scary to me, but then I wasn't there in front of it. Unfortunately, not many people outside of police, 1st responders, and other officials were either. I guess I am more interested in drawing attention to the many differing "rumors" that are out there. I have read Pop Mech.'s explanation, as well as those who refute it, and I'm not talking about just some person without any background. There are quite a few different explanations for what could have happened. I have yet to hear or read a single solid explanation for why the appearance of "squibs" during the building's collapse.
"The entire building fell in on itself, with the slumping east side of the structure pulling down the west side in a diagonal collapse." Popular Mech.
I looked and looked and I can't see anything "diagonal" about the collapse. Neither can a number of other engineers and professionals. In fact, Pop. Mech. seems to be the only ones who took notice of such a thing.
Your childish sarcasm only shows how uninterested you are in hearing anything besides your own favorite idea. I thought you said you were in the science fields (posted in a different forum)? I don't know any scientists who do not look at an issue from all sides and then work to disprove their theory. Looks like you've embraced a theory and are working diligently to prove it. Little backwards, isn't it?
The reason it never happened before is because skyscrapers don't come down in fire. And Psyche, popular mechanics is owned by Rupert Murdoch who owns Fox News. They employ the neocons, like Bill Kristol, who planned 911. Bill Kristol formed PNAC with Cheney as a member. They said they needed a new Pearl Harbor to go faster into the middle east. Look at the videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6ev4yfiq4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73qK4j32iuo
It is foolish to believe popular mechanics. This was an inside publication.Now Bill Kristol Planned 911. Do your dillusions never end? You really need to change your meds.
Name another skyscraper that has been drenched in jet fuel right through to the support beams, experienced a severed impact and then explosively caught fire.
And I assure you Pop Mech is a nerd publication, they don't know where the "inside" is, let alone how to get there.Name a fireplace grate that has collapsed under the weight of the logs after hours or even days heat from the red hot coals which fall through and gather underneath.
In comparison, the towers had yellow-orange flames for a second or two, then nothing but black smoke indicating an incomplete and cooler burn.
Or name a steel, or even aluminum pot on a gas stove (sitting directly and purposefully in contact with blue flames - hotter than yellow-orange flames, which are hotter than a black smoke fire) that experienced weakening.
Are you saying that nerds are never wrong or can’t be bought out?I have a kerosene stove that ran for over 24 hours once during a blackout from an Ice storm. Should have burned down my house using their reasoning but didn't. It's for sale for $50 bucks and works very well.
911 was a mass satanic ritual.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxLHf3u9ayA
Watch the video.Great men have uncanny ability to compartmentalize.
So...do people who think 9/11 was an inside job not believe that planes flew into the towers? Or are they saying that it was a perfectly timed masterful event, where they convinced the pilots to commit suicide and were able to set explosives unnoticed in the buildings - and time the explosives to work perfectly in time with the planes' impacts?
Planes of that size do not need pilots. In fact, the pilots could have been locked out of the control of the planes.
There is much written about that. Remote-controlled planes. High tech...probly stolen high-tech.
Princess Di's car too, has been speculated that the same thing happened there, but in the brakes: Boston Brakes. Maybe the British secret intelligences upped the technology.....James Bond and all that, pip pip cheerios.
I read this years ago: They can detect a postage stamp from 30,000 feet, or whatever.
And they couldn't find Bin Laden? You don't say???Remote-controlled planes.
What kind of radio-control hobby shop do you have to go to to get radio-controlled 747?
Yes, I know it's a dumb question. Here's an honest one. Do you really believe all the 911 conspiracy stuff, LMC?Longhunter,I see you around here but you don't read much else ,do you?
Yes, I read plenty, Slave. I was simply joking around with LMC. It's called sarcasm. Don't be so serious, dude.
I'm well aware of the capabilities of remote-control planes. Given our country's drone program, I'm sure a conspiracy theory could be dreamed up in an Orwellian dream state. I guess I just prefer to remain firmly planted in the here and now.
What, pray tell, makes you think our government would do something like 9-11? What would they gain?Sorry if you were joking, This thing is a sore spot I don't know why.Too much evidence against and not enough for I guess
Do you believe this was U.S. government conspiracy? If so, why?
It wasn't 19 arabs with boxcutters that's for sure. Once you get there the Gov't is involved in the cover up
All the convincing evidence I've seen says it was Arabs with box cutters.
What I read was that a lot of pilots are ex air force and one stated " Do you think I am going to give up my aircraft to someone with a boxcutter"?
And especially considering in the pre-9/11 era, hijackers usually wanted some money or something like that (there was some negotiation involved), so everyone wasn't necessarily going to die.
Good question. Why would the US government want to blow up the World Trade Center and the Pentagon? That's crazy!
It's not the US gvt, it's forces within it.
It's Cheney and Wolfowitz and Rice and Pearle.
It's people who answer to no one.
Here's what Chertoff gained: Head of Homelans security, now owns stock in airport scanning machines.
Here's what PNAC gained: Patriot Act...wanted for years.
Here's what Israel gained: Arabs as US enemy.
What Palestine? What.....WE WORRY?
free reign, no oversight. Sadism run amuck.LMC, I think you're giving a group of just a few men far too much credit.
Excuse me, you give credit to 19 men living in caves versus the United States Military.
Livelonger wrote: And especially considering in the pre-9/11 era, hijackers usually wanted some money or something like that (there was some negotiation involved), so everyone wasn't necessarily going to die.
Before 9-11, a high jacked plane meant days spent on the tarmac while the terrorists negotiated for fuel, food, money, safe passage to somewhere else, or the release of fellow terrorists.
That all changed on 9-11. It wasn't men living in caves but rather men who came here and took flying lessons. Then they got on planes and high jacked them, telling the passengers if they cooperated they would not be hurt which was the case in most of the past. They gained entry into cockpit and killed pilots then locked themselves in. Then they did something they'd never done before on a sunny September morning.
Yes, I give credit to 19 Muslim extremist that did what they did in the name of a religion they have no problem bastardizing for their own means.
I think it's ridiculous to think our government or a group of men within would do this to their own country.Why? They take their businesses out of here...not giving a bleep about the jobless people they leave behind.
They keep their money in Swiss banks, and the Cayman Islands, so they don't have to pay taxes on it.....what makes you think they have any loyalty to the United States?
Oh, scratch that... Here's on millionaire I like! Jimmy Walters:
"He offers a prize of $1 million to anyone who can prove that the WTC buildings collapsed in the way the US government says."
I'm no fan of Cheney and the neocons but that's crazy.
Yes, and I nearly always agree with her. She's a dear person who's having a momentary aberration in her usually excellent judgment.
It is not a momentary aberration but that is okay, what would a liberal be without a giant blind spot.
It was the empire Ralph, we do not know the power of the dark side. Now because we do not buy there BS about a conspiracy or that Bush did it, they find out lack of faith disturbing
http://www.911-strike.com/remote_bb.htm
http://www.oilempire.us/remote.html
That is only 2......do you have all night?What's your point? I watched coverage of 911 all weekend and didn't see anything that didn't convince me that the attack was anything other than planned and implemented by come crazed Saudi Arabian Muslims under the influence of Al Qaida. You can indulge in woulda coulda shoulda from now til you get tired of it, and the truth will remain.
What truth? What you believe?
That is not my truth. And you people do not have the right to make it so for all of us.The truth is that fanatical fundamentalist Muslims, apparently guided by Al Qaida planned and executed the 911 attacks without any knowledge, help or encouragement from our government. As I pointed out above, this doesn't mean that the FBI and CIA and our Air Force didn't screw up in what they could have and should have been doing to prevent the attacks. In competence is not the same as conspiracy in the attacks.
What gets me, and I don't want to offend anyone, is that there must have been countless attempts by many extremist groups which were all foiled by the intelligence services, but not 9/11? I ask this just as a question, not a conspiracy theory, but something that nags at me whenever I think of that terrible day. Is it possible that intelligence services were aware of the plot but did not make any attempt to prevent it, because it 'fitted' with the goals and ambitions of others. Just a question, not a theory.
Right!
They just happened to outfox "the
greatest military in the world"?
How did they get NORAD to stand down? That takes a phone call from a higher up you know......did they fake Cheney's voice? hack into the US military phone system?
Why were so many people told not to fly that day...warned? Told not to come into work?
Who got rich off that airline stock?
Oh, they just had a lucky geuss?
And this is not even the millions of expert pages on the technical stuff...the impossibility of the official explanation.
And why do people get so angry because we don't buy it?
What are you mad about?Lovemychris, I'm not mad about it. I kind of agree with you. I don't buy 9/11, the whole Islamist are to blame mentality. I actually believe, and I know I'll get slayed for this, that 9/11 was a pretext for war. Muslims, and again I'll probably get slated for this, have suffered terribly after 9/11 and 7/7. They're the new..ish whipping boys. Yesterday it was black people, Irish people, gay people. There's always an agenda. Who's interest are served by an event like 9/11?
There were breakdowns in communication between the FBI and CIA. As I recall, an FBI agent called attention to the fact that several Arabs were enrolled in flying lessons. But no action was taken in response to the report. That's a failure but a far cry from an indication of an "inside job."
Ralph, you are more trusting than I when it comes to the intelligence services. That information can only have been gleaned from the intelligence services. Why do you trust what they have to say? I'm not being critical of you, but it's that whole trust issue, they rely on that.
I think the information came from an FBI agent on the west coast, not from FBI headquarters.
Or so we are led to believe. Who will ever come out and say he was an FBI agent and now he is not. The US may be rather different but in the UK the intel services have not been accountable to anyone, they fix and make the news, they plant and lie. They can never be trusted.
I would prefer to believe the FBI and CIA cannot always be trusted rather than they can "never be trusted." Here's a report on the FBI's knowledge of the pilot training the terrorists were taking in preparation for the 9-11 attack.
Federal authorities have been aware for years that suspected terrorists with ties to Osama bin Laden were receiving flight training at schools in the United States and abroad, according to interviews and court testimony.
Three days after the attack on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center, FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III described reports that several of the hijackers had received flight training in the United States as "news, quite obviously," adding, "If we had understood that to be the case, we would have -- perhaps one could have averted this."
[Either Mueller was lying or the information never got to him.]
A senior government official yesterday acknowledged law enforcement officials were aware that fewer than a dozen people with links to bin Laden had attended U.S. flight schools. However, the official said there was no information to indicate the flight students had been planning suicide hijacking attacks.
"We were unable to marry any information from investigations or the intelligence community that talked to their use of this expertise in the events that we saw unfold on the 11th," the official said.
Connections between terrorists and flight training include the following:
• In 1996, two flight school operators said last week, FBI agents visited them to obtain information about several Arab pilots connected to a Pakistani terrorist eventually convicted of plotting to bomb U.S. airliners.
The flight schools, Coastal Aviation of New Bern, N.C., and Richmor Aviation of Schenectady, N.Y., were two of four that provided flight training to Abdul Hakim Murad in the early 1990s, according to Philippine authorities. Murad was arrested in Manila in 1995 and later convicted in New York of plotting to blow up a dozen U.S. airliners over the Pacific, then crash a suicide plane into CIA headquarters.
• In 1998, FBI agents questioned officials from Airman Flight School in Norman, Okla., about a graduate later identified in court testimony as a pilot for bin Laden, according to Dale Davis, the school's director of operations.
• This year, the trial of bin Laden associates for the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania yielded documents containing several references to flight schools and bin Laden pilots.
• Two weeks before the Sept. 11 attack, Davis said, FBI agents returned to Norman seeking information about another Airman student, a French-Moroccan dropout who had entered the country on a visa sponsored by the flight school. The man, Zacarias Moussaoui, had been detained in Eagan, Minn., on an immigration violation after he tried to purchase time on a jet simulator -- even though he had never flown solo in a single-engine aircraft.
One government witness in the embassy-bombing trial, Essam al-Ridi, testified that he had taken classes and taught at the now-defunct Ed Boardman Aviation School in Fort Worth. Al-Ridi also said that in the mid-1990s, he purchased a used Saber-40 aircraft on bin Laden's behalf for $210,000 in Tucson. Another witness in the same bombing trial, L'Houssaine Kerchtou, testified that he was sent to a flight school in Nairobi and later served as a pilot for bin Laden.
The issue of how U.S. authorities processed early warning signs that terrorists were taking advantage of the flight school system is certain to be examined in the aftermath of the attack. Suzanne E. Spaulding, executive director of the National Commission on Terrorism, a congressionally appointed task force, said, "In hindsight, we can see how all these things [flight school connections] might be relevant and important." But, she said, "it is harder on a day-to-day basis. There is no question that technology could help sort information."
Since the attack, the FBI has extended its investigation to dozens of flight schools coast to coast, including some of the same schools it visited in the years before the attack. According to law enforcement officials and press reports, the 19 suspected terrorists received flight training from at least 10 U.S. flight schools. At least 44 people sought by the FBI for questioning received some flight instruction. [More]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dy … ge=printer
You may find the linked section of the National Commission report on the flight training and other preparations for the attack interesting.
http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch7.htm9/11 Commission Members Doubt Official Story
http://www.oldthinkernews.com/?p=340LMC, none of the comments indicated any belief that 9-11 was an inside job! They merely indicated that some in the Pentagon and elsewhere engaged in a CYA deception to cover up for being asleep at the switch and not doing everything conceivably possible to avert the tragedy. This is far from expressing a belief that anyone in the government helped plan and or execute the attack. Think about this a bit more. You're not doing yourself justice by jumping on the conspiracy bandwagon. There was a conspiracy, but it involved fundamentalist Muslim fanatics led by Al Qaida.
Ralph, I'm recording the fact that you and I are in complete agreement on this issue. lol
Thanks, Habee. We agree fairly often. Too bad you're not in Michigan. I'd enjoy conversation over a cup of coffee, a beer or a glass of wine with you (as I would with nearly all participants in this forum including LMC).
Down Boy LOL
Just kidding. Ralph, you are 100% right. I have written many articles including one recently, show each of the truthers theories are bogus. Intelligence failures are far from a conspiracy.
Ralph you know the same MO of Operation Northwoods was used in 911. Face the facts. Northwoods was a plan by the US government to attack cities in America and blame it on the Cubans. Only Kennedy stopped it.
That was DECLASSIFIED INFORMATION and ran in the newspapers just a few years ago, Ralph.
I don't think you are giving Northwoods enough serious consideration Ralph.
What are you smoking these days, LMC? Usually I agree with you, but not on this one.
This is exactly how I feel when people say it was 19 muslim men with box-cutters.
Why don't you tell me what muslims gained by 9/11?Not all Muslims gained anything, as most Muslims aren't terrorists. However the fundamentalist Muslims who committed the act of terrorism gained a great deal. The had successfuly killed the enemy and destroyed the symbol of the American economy, as well as the attack on government. It couldn't have gone better for those people who would have spent a long time detailing every part of the crime.
So how come building 7 went down?
That had nothing to do with airplanes.LMC,
It has been explained to you many times but you choose to not believe the facts. including from someone who was thereWhat? That Silverstein "pulled" it?
Yeah, I know....controlled demolition!
Muslims gained nothing. Osama bin Laden believed Al Qaida gained something by registering their disapproval of (1)American troops stationed on Muslim holy lands and (2) US support for Israel on issues involving Palestine.
To the radical muslims, 911 was just a victorious battle in a war they declared on the USA many years back
obviously not perfectly timed and executed or there wouldn't be so many problems. Had it been, in reality, perfect, we probably wouldn't have much room for too much debate other than the coincidences of overall timing with how conveniently the event aligned itself with the US's want of war.
Let's just hope not. Than the world is a whole lot sicker than if it wasn't an inside job.
- Holmes221bposted 13 years ago0
I firmly believe this modern belief in conspiracy theories is because people need to have mystery in their lives, so the truth is denied in favour of a good story. Perhaps Dan Brown could write another work of fiction, this time about 9/11. Not only do I believe 9/11 was exactly what it has been reported as being, i.e. a terrorist attack, but I believe Princess Diana was not murdered, but died in a car crash, and I really do believe Marilyn Monroe died as a result of taking too many sleeping pills, because of her lifetime of insomnia, and I believe the Roswell crash was a weather balloon. I also believe that President Obama is and always has been an American citizen. I think perhaps there is no hope for me.
- ahorsebackposted 13 years ago0
WE LIVE IN THE FREEST TIME IN HISTORY ,UNFORTUNATELY , THAT BREEDS THESE TYPES OF MENTALITIES, CONSPIRACY THEORIES ARE JUST THAT ! THEORIES ! WE ALSO LIVE WITHIN THE MOST ABSTRACT SOCIAL IQ. AND SOCIALY IMMATURE TIME EVER . PROBABLY TOO MUCH HOLLYWOOD IN MANY MANY MINDS FROM CHILDHOOD DAYS ! LIBERAL INTELLECTUAL IDEALISMS AND STAR WARS MENTALITY MAKES SO MANY OF YOU NIAVE ! nO IT ISN'T AN INSIDE JOB! ARE YOU NUTS?
"companies that have designed such systems for the military say it wouldn't be difficult to adapt the technology for commercial aircraft.
General Atomics Aeronautical Systems Inc. developed a remote-controlled reconnaissance plane for the Air Force called Predator, which flew in Bosnia during the conflict there. Used by the military since 1994, it can be landed by pilots linked by satellite using controls on the ground or ordering an onboard computer to do the job."
Everything we see in computers and technology...the military is 50 yrs ahead- ahorsebackposted 13 years ago0
I am always amazed at the brilliance of conspiri -theorists , Why in the world ! destroy 3000 people from all over this world ? The "world trade center" , means that it was an attack on the free world . Not just Americans , nor New Yorkers , not just firemen! You people baffle me , but not by the questions or even the responses but by the fact that you plainly ignore REAL evidence . The United States is just another "too big to fail", country that will one day fall from within , who will be to blame ? The exact kind of mentality herein this OP ! And where will the liberals be ....in France , Canada , and anywhere else they can make it to quickly , while your own country burns!
Tweren't liberals who dun it...twere neo-cons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3POeE9b1SE
Watch this ...then talk to me. Lets see your evidence.....heresay by people tied to the white house.
Why kill 3000 people you say
We have taken over the opium fields of Afghanistan (worth billions)
We have taken over natural gas in Turkmenistan
We have privatized the oil fields of Iraq
We have helped overthrow the governments of Lybia, Egypt,ans Syria
and we now have the right to pre emptive attacks ...so we can bomb anyone who may someday be a "threat" to american interests.
Watch this, it's short and sweet.
http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/5328 … road-trip-Clever, cutesy but not convincing. Saying that the government could have prevented 911 but screwed up, or that the investigation was poorly handled is a far cry from claiming our government was responsible for the attack. That's just crazy.
Article was missing I put up new link.
I didn't find the article by Gordon Duff nor the publication Veterans Today VT at all convincing. Sorry.
That web site never publishes anything factual. So not get fooled because it has veterans in the site name
You can prove this how? You are calling veteran of this country liars? and by who someone with sketchy credentials at that.
What a short memory or maybe you just want to forget. You know from former conversations I was a Marine. VNIS and the Veterans Affairs web site both exposed the site for what it was . VT claims
"Veterans Today is the only independent, unaligned voice of its kind in America, accepting no financial support from any organization or individual, existing solely for educational purposes."
VNIS showed where most of there funding comes from including that they will ask for donations from time to time. They also showed 90 % of the contributing writers were not even vets.
What say you to this evidence then. Not that our government acted alone, but that they knew...or even had a hand in it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3POeE9b1SE
- ahorsebackposted 13 years ago0
I read enough of this forum O P. I am starting to hear the theme song for twilight zone in every post here! Get real people !
I'm with you. I keep asking myself why I waste time on such foolishness. I can't recall a single instance in which I convinced anybody to change their mind!
Ralph two bits of circumstantial evidence.
1. Taliban went to Texas in 1997. Refused pipeline to Halliburton investments in the Caspian Sea. Cheney had motive.
2. PNAC posted that a speedier entrance into the middle east would only be facilitated by a new Pearl Harbor. Cheney was a member of PNAC.
Cheney had both motive and knowledge beforehand. Add to that WTC7 fallng at the rate of gravity and squibbs being observed coming out of the towers and George Bush's brother Marvin being in charge of the security cameras as his replacement died on the first day of the job, 911, and you have a virtually airtight case. Ralph, quit being blinded.I agree that Cheney had several motives for invading Iraq and Afghanistan, but that's a far cry from suggesting that he had anything to do with planning or executing the 9-11 attacks. He's a scourge on humanity, but he had nothing to do with causing or allowing 9-11.
He had knowledge and he had motive Ralph. How can you be certain that he did not act on that knowledge and because of that motive? If motive existed without knowledge that is one thing. But his PNAC predicted the event!
So where is your proof he could not have done it Ralph?I don't care what you say. If you want to believe that our government was incapable of 911, even though documents about Operation Northwoods was released then go ahead.
I am sure you know about operation northwoods, where the US government was going to use fake empty planes to attack American cities and blame it on Cuba. The military had signed off on the false flag and Kennedy stopped the crime.
And the CIA was in on it too. So is it such a stretch that they could do it again? Is it really crackpot? Confidential documents released by the government prove that Northwoods was a real plan. You stand uncorrected, as usual.Gladio....the stay-behinds. Kill people,committ terror, blame the communists...it was real too.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid … 223151728#So the operational plans for "Operation Fish Hook" were printed on the foil you are using for a hat?
Operation Northwoods can be studied here. it was real. Youhave the tin foil and you are not able to read declassified information and believe it is real. Who is kooky now?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
From the Wikipedia site:
Operation Northwoods proposals included hijackings and bombings followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government. It stated:
"The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere."
Uncorrected, what you must realize was this information came from the United States government itself! Why are you so unable to comprehend this?
And we still post the bogus Taliban story
Is that the same Bush brother that was in charge of the state that screwed the electronic election machines that won Bush the election ?
No you guys are sleeping Recomment1 and Lovemychris. That was Jeb. You don't know about Marvin. He was in charge of security and the day he stopped working there his successor was killed on 911.
Oh you know those Bush's....they all look the same.
Do you understand the implications? His successor was killed the first day on the job, 911.
I know...it's CHILLING what they have done.
People need to know the story behind John P. O'Neill (the successor). There is some extremely interesting stuff about this man and his trials and tribulations while in the FBI. His area of expertise in middle eastern terrorism is especially interesting as well as his reason for leaving the FBI.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/KUP206A.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_P._O'Neill
Hardly a Muslim plot but mission run by a para-military organization. There have been many examples. Be comforted in you cult. That is why they exist. Al Qaeda had been operational for years before 9/11 and the African Embassy bombings. MI 6 had their sites on Bin Laden long before the Cole Incident or the Khobar Tower bombing or the attack in Yemen.
But ignorance of history and fact is essential to the cultist.Yah, I know...."little toilet" was started by the American CIA..you know, the one Bush daddy used to run. Before he was Reagan's handler. Then pres himself. Then his son...say, what is this, Dynasty?
Wow, still married to the idea that AL Qaeda was started by the CIA. I guess there are some lies that just taste so good to some cultists they eat, drink and breath them.
There are varying opinions on when and who started Al-Qaeda. Everyone thinks they know the REAL truth when they've really only got a little of the "truth." And this muddling of fact and fiction is a common method of obscuring anything needing to be buried. Turn a shocking truth into a controversial issue, and there are bound to be a lot of untruths, gossip, and conjecture. Eventually, it's the argument over who's right, rather than the content of the arguments, that are in the limelight. Nice way of distracting attention, isn't it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda
http://www.videojug.com/interview/the-s … f-al-qaeda
Both of these links agree with the origination dates being around 1988-89, and they both give a broad explanation of why it's so difficult to determine who's behind the movement at any given time. There actually is no real "head" because it's more of a theology, a way of thinking and believing than a specific group, because many groups subscribe to the ideas though they are not necessarily linked to the core militant "decision makers" (I use the term loosely because of how decentralized the movement truly is).
The ideology was not started by the CIA. However, the agency gave it, its teeth. Our country recognized the power of whipping those already opposed to the Soviets, into a religious frenzy and instructing them of their duties as "Warriors of the Lord" in protecting their way of life.
The fact remains that we DID recruit such individuals. We DID bring them into our country for the purpose of setting them up into a fighting group. We DID supply them with weaponry. We DID supply them with training. We DID teach them how to organize, plan, and carry out attacks. We DID allow those who were already on a terrorist watch list, and those known to be engaged in terrorist activities, into our country with CIA provided passports and visas.
As someone has already stated somewhere on this forum, the arabs and other less sophisticated, predominantly Muslim countries, have historically been disorganized and scattered, often warring among themselves. It took an Englishman, "Lawrence of Arabia", to show the Arabs how to put their individual differences aside in order to band together for a common cause. We have continued where he left off, spreading the knowledge and know-how into those countries WE have a use for.
In recent years, our government hasn't denied its involvement with organizing resistance groups in Afghanistan and surrounding areas during their battle with the Soviets. Our officials looked at those religious factions as resources to be used and exploited to our cause. They have continued to use them in whatever manner most suits the goals they pursue at any given time...even if that means claiming total ignorance of plans and information intercepted through the years.
No, the CIA did not start the ideology that is Al-Qaeda, but they are responsible for the creation of a cohesive bond between the scattered factions.How about something other than the usual.
Robert Fisk is a British journalist despised by the British political right.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world … 65715.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/arab- … 28034.html
Ayman Al-Zawahiri, no friend of the west.
http://azelin.files.wordpress.com/2010/ … banner.pdf
PNAC WAS the Bush adminstration!!! Along with the Vulcans (google it). And Cheneye's secret department (google it)....oh yeah, a treasure chest of DECEIT.
The pointy ear guys were behind 911? How did they fool Captain Kirk?
google it, they were quite a vile bunch.
The Vulcans in the Bush administration.Never mind...I did it for you:
"The resurrected Vulcan group included Richard Armitage, Robert Blackwill, Stephen Hadley, Richard Perle, Rabbi Dov S. Zakheim, Robert Zoellick and Paul Wolfowitz. Other key campaign figures included Dick Cheney, George P. Shultz and Colin Powell, all influential but not actually a part of the Vulcan Group. All of these people, associated with the George H. W. Bush administration, returned to powerful, strategic positions in George W. Bush’s administration.
Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz have been accused of being agents for the Israeli government. Investigations by Congress and the FBI have substantiated those allegations. Zakheim and his family were heavily involved in Yeshivat Sha’alvim, an educational organization in which students are taught to render absolute commitment to the State of Israel.
Many of these individuals were also members of the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) which was established in the spring of 1997 with the intention of promoting American Global leadership at any cost."
*****
Well, my goodness, even I didn't now this would match my theory so well!! You see....zionists and neo-cons.
FINALLY someone with their facts straight. Yes the Taliba also met at the White House. They refused to guard our pipeline (the T.A.P.I. pipeline) so we invaded them. Its as simple as that.
Ahmed Karzai was put in charge of Afghanistan....he previously worked for Union 76 and is the man that came up with the plan for the pipeline
"I actually believe, and I know I'll get slayed for this, that 9/11 was a pretext for war"
Why should you get slayed for your beliefs? This is the problem, and it's a rotten one.
No one is calling the people who believ the gvt's story kooks and twilight-zone conspiracy theorists...why not?
It's as crazy as anything if you ask me.
PNAC was calling for decades for an invasion in Iraq....then eventually all of the Middle East. Once Bush was put in there, who was his administration? Why, PNAC members!
Who ran the security in the airports where the "hi-jackers" slipped by?
Why, the same ones who ran the security at building 7! ding ding ding
Why, how coincidental that the whole master plan was found in a car at Logan Airport....geeez, for such ingenious master-minds to outsmart the whole US military, they sure was dumb!Why should you get slayed for your beliefs? This is the problem, and it's a rotten one.
No one is calling the people who believ the gvt's story kooks and twilight-zone conspiracy theorists...why not?
I agree its a rotten problem. Whenever people question the events of that day, and just don't buy into the BS, they are labelled, shouted down and verbally abused. And, I know in the US there's a lot of emphasis on freedom of speech, but from my perspective freedom of speech is a myth. Conform to the official line, don't question, don't challenge. Just accept.
Let's face it when it comes to Iraq, the people that did speak out, here in the UK at least, such as Dr David Kelly, were later found dead in the woods. Suicide, yeah right. George Galloway expelled from parliament for daring to say that the war was illegal and service men should refuse to fight. Robin Cook, resigned in disgust at what was happening. Later found dead on a mountain.Why is there NO footage of the hijackers on Airport security
Why did they not show up on flight seating documents
how did a hijackers passport remain legible after surviving the impact and fireball
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3POeE9b1SE
"geeez, for such ingenious master-minds to outsmart the whole US military, they sure was dumb!"
"Mohammed Heikal, longtime Egyptian journalist, former government spokesman, and the “Arab world’s foremost political commentator,” expresses disbelief that bin Laden and al-Qaeda could have conducted the 9/11 attack without the US knowing. “Bin Laden has been under surveillance for years: every telephone call was monitored and al-Qaeda has been penetrated by American intelligence, Pakistani intelligence, Saudi intelligence, Egyptian intelligence. They could not have kept secret an operation that required such a degree of organization and sophistication.” [Guardian, 10/10/2001]
"General Anatoly Kornukov, the commander in chief of the Russian air force, says that “Generally it is impossible to carry out an act of terror on the scenario which was used in the USA yesterday.” He recently complained that, due to underfunding and cutbacks, his own air force was so run-down that it was no longer effective as a fighting force. Yet, he says, “The notification and control system for the air transport in Russia does not allow uncontrolled flights and leads to immediate reaction of the anti-missile defense. As soon as something like that happens here, I am reported about that right away and in a minute we are all up.” [BBC, 8/7/2001; Christian Science Monitor, 8/24/2001; Pravda, 9/12/2001]
Here's a long list of a bunch of "kooks" who don't believe the story.
Yeah, I know......idiots all.
http://www.historycommons.org/timeline. … _criticismI think your opinion is not compatible with reality for many reasons. Why is it, for instance, that people seem to believe that the money elite of the world have higher moral standards than do Los Angeles street gangs?
911 was merely a drive by shooting in which the desired result was achieved - a pretext for the rape of Arabia.They have less morals, because they think they're better!
There were two options placed on the table during the Clinton administration. On one hand, Afghanistan could be invaded, and direct regime change could occur. On the other, the Northern Alliance, led by Massoud, would be supplied and funded to mount an insurgency across the Taliban-held nation.
Just before the September 11th attacks, a very deceptive Al-Qaeda operation assassinated Massoud within his compound...the bombers were posing as journalists and their video equipment was booby trapped..
Massoud has spoken out on a visit to France about an imminent attack that would be staged in the United States...
There were warnings being sent, but information was not being relayed or conveyed clearly...
My problem is that whenever I see Taliban Afghanistan I see Pakistani ISI and Saudi Intelligence services and funding... I also see a lot of American funding... The Pakistani ISI..."terrorist training camps" that we were bombing were set up, run, and funded by them...
Osama bin Laden was then found living in Pakistan, close to a military institute, and Pakistani ISI...The ISI are also behind keeping the Taliban active in Afghanistan now. Its finger prints are all over the Mumbai Hotel attack a couple of years ago. The ISI, just like several radical Saudi princes, are behind much of the terrorist problems in the world - let's not forget Iran facilitating and encouraging much of this.
One thing that makes some people uncomfortable is the Iraqi intelligence also had contact with Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. There is evidence that the high jackers may have been trained in facilities in Iraq - not necessary linked to Saddaam.And lets not forget that Al Qaeda were created, funded and trained by America in the first place - for use against the Russians initially. So by your own reasoning you implicate the US.
Mujahedin resistance to the Soviet invasion was partly financed and equipped by the US. Some groups had their own organization and financing, Al Qaeda was one of these. There is a series of interviews with Bin Laden by a British journalist in which Bin Laden rejects that mythic origin.
There has been no evidence of any camps in Iraq. I have read many sources, including the 9/11 Commission Report..
Factions within ISI have run Pakistan for a long time. Under Benazir Bhutto they gained tremendous leverage, and kept Bhutto in the dark concerning their operations in Afghanistan, as well as their funding of madrassas and training camps (many of which would be dubbed "Al Qaeda camps" to us). They have been using the idea of war-jihad (as opposed to jihad in general) to fight against India. This, however, is not an invention of their own. The CIA, among other groups was (during the Cold War) responsible for the printing of Qurans and their distribution throughout the region, even up into Tajikistan. We saw spreading religious indoctrination as a way to keep the Soviet underbelly unstable.
Pakistan interests see Afghanistan as a buffer against Iran, as well as a major route for preferred treatment trade. There is no real desire for an independent Afghanistan in Islamabad..
"I believe this to be a very important article. As you may probably know, I've steadfastly maintained that Dov Zakheim, the former Comptroller of the Pentagon, is a key conspirator in the 9/11 fraud. The following article sheds more light on this powerful shadowy character; the missing $2.3 Trillion; his connection to the mysterious Boeing 767 tanker deal (I believe the aircraft that impacted the Twin Towers were KC-767s, the military tanker version of the Boeing 767); and his involvement in SPC, the company that manufactures remote control 'termination' systems for aircraft. Yes, things are beginning to snap into focus very quickly..." -- a physicist in the 911 Truth movement
The Pentagon.....reading that article stating Bush gave power to them. Eisenhower: Beware the Military Industrial Complex.....
Nah...I know they did it. Those bums. And they're still doing it to Palestine, and we're in line.
Unless the honorable forces can stop them. Hard to tell who's who. But I know an evil rat when I see one.Read up on Smedley Butler. He is one of the honorable ones I'm speaking of...and there are many.
The money-men tried to seize the white house back then...wanted a pres who would "go along with them".....
http://www.eclectica.org/v1n1/reviews/wharton_plot.html
Bush went along.
They are trying to oust Obama.....
9/11 was an inside job...to further their agenda. This is my opinion. And it's pretty disconcerting that others get to have an opinion and not be considered loonatic crazy-people. How nice for you all!
*clap* *clap* *clap*- ahorsebackposted 13 years ago0
The only Americans to blame for 9-11 are facing you right there in your morning mirror , cup of coffee in hand and an arm full of the greatest conspiracy of all "Complacency" , You dont even know who your congressman or senators are or that the backroom lobbyists that are writing your foriegn policies, and determining who gets which slice of the American pie ! You ,who believe more in conspiracies than your country ,should get your heads out of your --- and put your comic book imaginations back in the attic trunks at moms house and then do your duty ,Vote your way to freedom ,to patriotism and learn the ABC's of reality again !!!
Amen! My senator, Carl Levin, had the wisdom and foresight to vote against the resolution to approve the invasion of Iraq.
I would say your version of reality is warped and programmed.
You people have a lot of NERVE thinking your way or the highway.
Guess what? You don't have a lock on reality. Yours is foreign to me.
You are completely sane. Herd mentality is for the herded. They can enjoy their fear and their mass media - and ignore all truth right up to the point when it's too late.
Leaving the did they didn't they aside for a moment - the really amazing thing is that so many people are willing to believe this theory because it would not be unthinkable that the people involved are capable of it.
Yeah, but they can believe Obama is a foreign-born terrorist who is out to destroy America...that Palin is a nice person. That Bachmann is smart. That corporate America cares about America.....
dooodeedoodoodoodeedoodoo.......TWILIGHT ZONE!
- Longhunterposted 13 years ago0
For the ones that do believe, the word gullible comes to mind. I simply don't see a person or a few people doing this without there being glaring evidence they did it - ie. the 19 Saudis who really did this and Al Quada, the group who took credit for it.
"Al Quada, the group who took credit for it."
Al queda is a CIA list of muslims who fought with us against Russia. It means "little toilet".
Go on down the Rabbit Hole......you believe in a terrorist organization named Little Toilet.What are you smoking man? Qaeda doesnt mean toilet and Al- doesnt mean little. With the millions upon millions of arabic speakers do you honestly think that would be true? REALLY?
I think you need to get some air.Yes, the staleness and rigidity are stifling in here.
I'll go back to crazy-town and all you geniuses can laugh at how stupid I am.
As per usual.
have fun when the Nazi's take over. I won't say I told you so....but I did.I speak the language. Did the U.S. government go back through thousands of years of arab history to make Al-Qaeda mean "little toilet" or pay off all arab speakers to keep the meaning quiet? Think about what you said.
Feel free to have your conspiracies but try not to make massively stupid statements like that. Im not even gonna touch on the nazi thing LOL“Qa’ada” is the infinitive of the verb “to sit”. “Ma-Qa’ad” is a chair. “Al-Qaeda”
is the base or fundament of something. “Ana raicha Al Qaeda” is colloquial for
“I’m going to the toilet”. A very common and widespread use of the word “Al-
Qaeda” in different Arab countries in the public language is for the toilet bowl.
This name comes from the Arabic verb “Qa’ada” which mean “to sit”,
pertinently, on the “Toilet Bowl”. In most Arabs homes there are two kinds of
toilets: “Al-Qaeda” also called the “Hamam Franji” or foreign toilet, and
“Hamam Arabi” or “Arab toilet” which is a hole in the ground. Lest we forget
it, the potty used by small children is called “Ma Qa’adia” or “Little Qaeda”.
Those who founded the glorious “International of Islamic Terror, Al-Qaeda,
probably knew too little about common use of Arabic language to know that by
using this name for their organization, they risked becoming the laughing stock
of everybody who speaks the Arabic “public” language."
http://www.gatheringspot.net/topic/gene … ans-toiletThis is getting good! LMC is arguing with a guy who speaks the language about the meaning of Al-Qaeda. But, of course, I think she would argue with a fence post if it had a sign on it that said, "Vote Republican."
Wait! Is that the theme music for the Twilight Zone I hear, LMC? I'll bet you hear it loud and clear.
LMC, Is it at all possible for you to accept the fact that you just might be wrong and not just about this but about a whole myriad of things? Given some of our past conversations, I doubt it. I'll bet you're just a bundle of joy to be around in person.
Assef, you're fighting a battle of wits with an unarmed person. Have fun.
- ahorsebackposted 13 years ago0
I forget who said it , for that I apologize , but when asked about a JFK plot by higher up US officials said , " It would be impossible for more than one person in governmment to have plotted JFK's assasination " it just could not be kept secret with so many opposing views ". I'm paraphrazing this . But I will say this , 9-11 " forgetaboutit!" , two people in our great land can't agree on anything and even if that were possible , tomorrow changes everything , five, ten or twenty years later someone would be reborn or have some cosmic reaction and recant thier secret plots of anything. Stop swallowing chem-trail juice people!
So you believe in the "Magic Bullet" theory?
- Infinite712posted 13 years ago0
No, I do not think that 9-11 was an "inside job". There are way too many problems with this irrational theory. For one thing, George Bush is way too stupid to have pulled off 9-11.
A lot of this "9-11 was an inside job" nonsense comes from a documentary called "Loose Change". This documentary debunks Loose Change: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid … 3129565561That video does a poor manipulation job
@infinite712 Well when i say an inside job what I mean is that people in government like the CIA or the FBI and even the NSA no truly about what happened that day. Our politicians are total idiots and read what there told to read. Bush doesn't even know his ass crack from butt whole. So think outside the box and remember there are other agencies in the government beside our dear politicians.
Yes, but this theory is irrational and refuted. I highly recommend that you watch the video that I linked to.
Now, that's not to say that conspiracies never happen. I'm just saying that this particular theory is complete bunk.
There are a million stories in the naked city. This is one of them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMvJUjZ8rlMI suppose you never heard of the Book, "Return of the Fourth Reich"?
No, probly not...too smart for that.
I guess you don't see similarity's in the sadistic nature of Zionism to Nazi'ism?
Pity...we have been learning from the Nazi scientists since the end of WWII. But I geuss that's a ridiculously a stupid thing to say. Oh, I gotta sneeze....
* Operation Paperclip *
gazooondheitAre not Nazis superior people? Are not Jews and Americans and all monotheists superior people?
I don't generally like to criticise too strongly anyone who holds a contrary point of view to my own, but I do get quite angry at this particular conspiracy theory, because of the slur it places on so many people.
I'm not sure any conspiracy theory in recent history, which has been initially denied by the authorities, has ever actually been subsequently proven to be true, but the 9/11 theories are not merely bzarre - they must be downright offensive to anyone actively involved in the events of that day, and who is by implication is being accused by the conspiracy theorists either of utter incompetence, of deceit, or of murder.
How can anyone seriously believe that a planned demolition of the twin towers took place, that a cruise missile was fired at the Pentagon, or that United 93 never really crashed with all those passengers on board? Such opinions are frankly absurd.
Quite apart from the nonsensical idea that the American Government would wipe out its own citizens in such a manner in their own country, such actions could not be kept secret. Demolishing a building is a major operation, and many people would have to be in the know. Firing a missile on American soil could not be hidden. And supposed passengers, pilots and airline officials would know full well whether one of their planes went missing, and where. It would only take one chance photographer, or one willing or highly paid informer, to blow the whole thing wide open. As for the Israelis, they would have had very little to gain from such action, and absolutely everything to lose if they had been found out.
I believe rational explanations have been given for all apparent anomolies in the events of 9/11.
I may write a hub about it one day, but over analysing this, only lends respect to conspiracy theories which really should not receive such publicity until the day that hard concrete evidence is produced."...the nonsensical idea that the American Government would wipe out its own citizens in such a manner..."
Our food supply is being poisoned every day through the use of toxic chemicals as well as biogenetics..all with the stamp of approval granted by the US government. Our officials know the effects on the population but continue to allow the use of poisons by big corporations, all in the pursuit of the almighty buck!
So tell me which is more heinous...to kill several thousand people instantly in one day...or to kill millions slowly and painfully over a period of years? Why does the implication of one crime cause so much outrage when it is fully in keeping with the same principles of the other? Or perhaps you still believe fluoride is good for your bones and teeth, and that the physicians and scientists who claim it's poisoning us are just another group of conspiracy theorists?In reply to you Terri, I would say this;
1) I would be interested to know which chemicals you are talking about, as I suspect that your accusations that they are ' killing millions painfully over a period of years' is questionable to put it mildly. The use of fertilisers, insecticides, biogenetics etc sometimes have drawbacks, and if those drawbacks are serious and PROVEN, then the chemical is eventually withdrawn. Whatever, they also have benefits, and are introduced with the best of intentions.
2) I have no personal views on the merits of the specific example you give, but any quick internet search will show that the evidence of beneficial and harmful effects of fluoride is scientifically debateable and far from being proven. Plenty of scientists and physicians claim that it is NOT poisoning us in the dramatic fashion you suggest.
To answer the question you pose;
Flying a plane into a populated building has - I think - been proven beyond reasonable doubt to kill thousands of people. Yes it is a million times more heinous than medical and health related decisions made for the public good, which may in some cases be subsequently suspected of causing detrimental side effects, but which have most certainly not been proven to be 'killing millions painfully over a period of years'.
If you can't see a difference, we'll have to agree to differ, because I can.you're correct...we'll agree to disagree. STRONGLY!
There are lots of studies done on fluoride alone that are giving evidence of the greater dangers using it to any benefits which might be found. For one thing, putting it in the water and other commonly used products poses problems with dosage control. Some people drink more water, brush their teeth more, use more mouthwash. Then we have to take into account the different age and health factors associated with each individual doing the consuming. We also have 1,000's of other chemicals we're ingesting either as an element of other food, the air we breath, etc. Some chemicals are known to react with each other to form other toxins.
So, what you're saying is that you believe aspartame is safe too? That's an obvious example of a danger that was refused by the FDA for years and years until a new director took matters into his own hands and added a 6th panel member so the decision would go into a tie and he was the only one who could make the tie-breaker decision. Yes, Hall ended up losing his job for it, but he went right to work with the PR firm that handles the company manufacturing aspartame. Aspartame is still on the market even though there was so much scandal in regards to getting it voted as safe when it's clearly not.
Our food has been tested for nutrients in comparison to 50 years ago. Guess what!!!! We've engineered them to produce more in an acre but they aren't providing what we need to live healthy. The only benefit of more per acre is more money to be made in less space. Less nutrients is NOT a benefit.
You know, if you have a computer running perfectly and then you add some software and it seems to be running perfectly, you won't do anything to check to see if the software is causing problems unbeknownst to you. It would take too much time to check everything out. What's the point? It's not causing a problem. Then you make some other changes like, say, a critical update. Suddenly there are all manner of problems going on.
Common sense would tell you the critical update is interfering with your system in some manner. You'll try to find the common denominators among the known problems. Maybe it's problems with graphics, and games, etc.. You'll start looking at your video card and its drivers. You'll go through everything step by step until you discover the source or sources of your conflicts. And if you can't repair them, you'll remove them and find a better replacement that doesn't conflict. You will never just sit there and say, "well, there's nothing wrong because I can't find it. Common sense will tell you the update created the problem and you will keep digging until you find the source." Why should something so important as health issues and conflicts be treated any differently? It's so much more important than your computer.
We are discovering high amounts of estrogen in ground waters, soil, and it's being injected into food. We are now experiencing all manner of hormone related health issues. We're discovering fish and wild life with mutated and malfunctioning reproductive systems. According to you, since no one has proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, they're not related. Our endocrine system produces and regulates hormones. Statistics are showing a very marked increase in rises of illnesses and diseases associated with the endocrine system. Really...one doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to understand there's a connection. Just because the connection hasn't been fully determined for each and every chemical and the combinations, doesn't mean there's nothing wrong. There are many known chemicals on the FDA's list that should not be there. period.
I highly resent a government that puts unnecessary chemicals in my drinking water without my permission. If I want fluoride or any other chemical, I'll ask for a prescription, thank you very much! Any government that does these things against the people's wishes is a government with its own agenda, and it's not likely to be anything good.
So, where did you get your rose colored glasses? I'd like a pair of my own.Congratulations Terri. Got to be one of the top ten refutations in HP forum history. BTW, why has every brand of gum, mints, etc- many with sugar as an ingredient- now have aspartame as an added component. The only darn breath mints I can find now that don't have the stuff in it is the large can of British manufactured Altoids. Thank God for large cans of Altoids.
@Alastar: Thank you! That's some high praise coming from you and I appreciate your words. There is no reason for putting unnecessary ingredients like fluoride into mints and gum. I've become a bit angry, myself, that I can't find certain items WITHOUT the unnecessary garbage. Since it's my money I'm spending, I will determine what I'm going to spend it on. I don't like to mention my own hubs in the forum, but I have one on aspartame that provides the SCIENTIFIC explanation of how they break down and the conversions that take place causing them to become even more toxic. I'm sorry, but how anyone can believe it's ok to risk even one person's health, is beyond me. Don't you just love that ideology that says since it's only 1% of the population (highly debatable), it's safe. The US population is 311 million, equaling 3,110,000 people adversely affected. That's safe? So how come when a mere 2 dozen people come down with the flu, we're suddenly swooped on with recommendations of being injected with chemical cocktails designed to “save” us from the risk? Using the 1% ideology, those 26 cases are negligible.
Congratulations? One of the top ten refutations in HP forum history? Frankly this is absurd.
Firstly Terri suggests there are lots of studies indicating greater dangers to using fluoride than any benefits which might be found. There are also lots of studies showing precisely the opposite. I suggest people do not look at the claims of pressure groups for or against on this matter, or those with a vested interest, but rather the research of independent scientific bodies with no personal axe to grind. You will find that the case for or against fluoride is far from proven, but that most medical authorities would accept that benefits of fluoridation are clear. The drawbacks are not clear, though there is eveidence which needs to be investigated further.
Secondly, she says 'Some people drink more water, brush their teeth more, use more mouthwash'. Well, can't argue with that I suppose; anything taken to excess has potential to harm - even pure non-fluoridated water.
Thirdly she states:
'you're saying is that you believe aspartame is safe too?'
Tell me where I said that? Like conspiracy theorists generally, Terri makes assumptions about other peoples' beliefs without any basis whatsoever. Apparently because I call for objective assessment of the facts, the implication is that I think aspatame - which I hadn't even mentioned in my reply - is safe. That is a non-sequitur.
Fourthly she says that aspartame is clearly not safe. Once again, read the evidence of all authorities and scientific research done in objective controlled trials. The case is pretty much the same as with fluoride. The prevalent view of experts as opposed to pressure groups is that in the great majority of people aspartame does not have significant dangerous side effects at the doses people may reasonably be expected to ingest. (The exception is people who have the rare inherited condition phenylketonurea for whom aspartame is dangerous).
Fifthly, Terri has made a point about biogenetics. Modified food in other words. Genetic manipulation can lead to a reduction of nutrients. It can also be used to increase certain nutriients in food production. Most trials have shown no difference in nutritional value, and no credibly reliable adverse reactions have been recorded. To quote a summary by the World Health Organisation;
'GM foods currently available on the international market have passed risk assessments and are not likely to present risks for human health. In addition, no effects on human health have been shown as a result of the consumption of such foods by the general population in the countries where they have been approved. Continuous use of risk assessments based on the Codex principles and, where appropriate, including post market monitoring, should form the basis for evaluating the safety of GM foods.'
I could go on, but that will do for now.
Concerning the general tone of her comments, Terri displays all the attributes of a typical conspiracy theorist. These are three-fold:
1) Conspiacy theorists will carefully select the evidence which supports their belief and ignore and utterly reject all evidence which does not. That is unscientific.
2) Conspiracy theorists will tend to exaggerate any evidence they manage to find which supports their belief. Thus, possible harmful side effects from excess ingestion of some chemicals becomes 'millions of people dying slow painful deaths'. Disputed, ambiguous evidence becomes clear, unequivocal fact.
3) Conspiracy theorists make ssumptions of the worst possible kind about the motives of anyone who presents counter evidence to their fondly held beliefs. Thus government bodies wich commission reports which are not favourable are accused of lying to cover up their actions, scientific researchers are accused of having ulterior motives or of being in the pay of multinationals, and others are accused of having ' rose coloured glasses'.
(I guess up till now I've got off quite lightly just being accuised of gullibility!)
I'm sorry, but Terri and possibly Alastar are wrong. Not necessarily in their beliefs about the dangers of these chemicals, but in their approach and conviction. I have no strong views one way or the other on these matters, but I do believe in objective dispasionate analysis of the facts, NOT sensationalist, biased propaganda. That is all I ask for.
Anyway, whatever the truth about these additives, chemicals etc, my reason for coming to this forum was to take issue with 9/11 conspiracy theorists. The extreme view of some conspiracy theorists that the U.S government actively participated in the destruction of the World Trade Centre, and indeed rammed a plane into their own Defence Department at the Pentagon, is frankly idiotic, and so is the attempt to link this with the issue of food additives and the like.
As for those rose-coloured glasses Terri, maybe I could send you some. At least you might be able to see something through them beyond the tunnel vision you are currently experiencing.
Best wishes.@Greeensleeves: Read this and then tell me it's posted by an “interest group”. This scientist has devoted her research, since 1987, to the questions of fluoridation policies. This is a photo copy of her letter of response to a request for her expert opinion on whether the military should institute fluoridation of the water at Fort Detrick. Please keep in mind, her initial research was instigated by Dr. Hodge, the chief pharmacologist on the Manhattan Project (originally responsible for the whole fluoride CONSPIRACY). Dr. Hodge requested funds from the military to do animal experimentation to determine central nervous system effects of fluoride because he had clinical evidence of negative mental affects. He never was given the money to do those studies, and the entire project was classified so all true information was protected from being discovered by the public. This letter comes from a scientist who worked for a dental research facility. Such a facility has interests that would go against her findings. She is probably the foremost expert on fluoride and neurotoxicity in the world today.
http://www.nofluoride.com/mullenix_bsa.cfm
Your second statement about excess is a lame attempt to twist what was said. I addressed the fact that there are too many variables of consumption when trying to determine dosage and how to control it. You're trying to imply that the individual can control their dosage by limiting how much water they drink, or how many times they brush their teeth. So what is someone supposed to do when they have a fever...dehydrate? Wouldn't want to consume too much fluoride, and all that... The most ridiculous statement I've ever heard.
In an above post, you said, “1) I would be interested to know which chemicals you are talking about...” I was merely giving you an example of a chemical and did not say you believed it was safe. I was asking; I believe there was a question mark at the end of the sentence. And my question was raised due to your blanket statement saying that chemicals are introduced with good intentions and removed when proven dangerous. The issue with aspartame is that G. D. Searle could not get it approved because studies indicated dangers and the FDA wanted more studies completed. G. D. Searle hired another lab to conduct a study and then BURIED it, lied about it, and claimed not to know about it, when the findings didn't support their agenda. Yet, their own studies couldn't refute the findings of the one they buried. My main point was that chemicals aren't removed just because they aren't safe. We're talking about an issue of credibility. If a company has to lie, change the rules (hiring extra people to vote for them) etc..they are not credible, therefore, we should be suspect of anything they claim.
The European Ramazzini Foundation of Oncology and Environmental Sciences is hardly a self-interest group with an agenda of fear mongering and distribution of misinformation. They are concerned with finding cancer causing agents in order to prevent cancer that kills millions of people every year. They are non-profit organization. What do they have to gain other than knowledge? The Calorie Control Council is a trade group for artificial sweetener makers, who has spent 25 years trying to refute the findings associated with dangers attributed to aspartame. Now, what do they have to gain by refuting the information? By your own words, we should ignore the findings of self-interest groups. I believe that would be The Calorie Control Council in this instance.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/12/busin … wanted=all
http://www.ramazzini.it/ricerca/pdfUplo … d_2010.pdf
I maintain what I've said about biogenetics and chemicals. You're free to believe anything you wish for any reason. Doesn't make you right to anyone but you. Same goes for me. I take issue with the idea that everything on the international market has passed risk assessment. For one thing, when I said “our food supply” I was talking about Americans, specifically. The fact is that you are sitting across the big pond, in your safe haven where the European Union has taken a different stand on biogenetics than what has been permitted to take place here in the US. Your food is substantially more safe than ours for the time being, at least.
Secondly, perhaps the standards and guidelines set up to determine safety need to be reviewed. I am well aware of the controversy surrounding one Arpad Pusztai that took place about a dozen years ago. He was a world renowned biochemist with 35+ years experience in his field. He's written 3 books on lectins (the controversy was over his findings on a particular lectin), published 270 research papers and worked at the Rowett Institute for 35 years. He was considered an expert until he questioned the safety of some lectins found in a variety of modified potato, at which point he became a target for silencing.
I was very surprised over the furor, to begin with. Why would anyone want to find fault with the question of safety. Follow up the findings by doing a bit more research to determine the truth or untruth of them. In the mean time, we need to take the stand that proving them safe is the standard, not limitations on whether they're found unsafe or not. I will always stand on the side of precaution. In this instance, it was discovered that his detractors had contracts as consultants with biogenetic corporations. Self-interest group, anyone??? And there was government involvement in discrediting Pusztai. The Monsanto corporation went crying to American President Bill Clinton, who then called British Prime Minister Tony Blair, who in turn phoned the Rowett Institute, not once but twice, because “Americans found that our study could harm their biotechnology industry, and especially Monsanto...”
And just in case you aren't grasping the full implications presented with this information: Monsanto purchased GD Searle and is the manufacturer of aspartame. There was improper government manipulation in getting aspartame approved when it had been refused for years by the FDA. There was government involvement in discrediting a top scientist when his findings weren't conducive to the financial welfare of a corporation who is one of the top producers of bioengineered foods. If it walks like a duck, it sounds like a duck, it smells like a duck, and it looks like a duck, common sense would dictate, it's a bleeping duck! If you want to go snack on a canister of formaldehyde, feel free but you're not going to force feed it to me.
http://www.combat-monsanto.co.uk/spip.php?article280
As for being deemed a conspiracy theorist.......hmmm......am I supposed to feel insulted? You say I am selectively choosing my sources of information that support my belief. Hardly. I've read countless pieces of information both for and against. The problem is that there is too much meddling and too many suppression tactics being used to the end of financial gains for those whose interests are in promotion of these things. My opinion has been based on the credibility of all concerned. If you can provide any links to studies completed by institutions not connected to government or big business concerns through funding, I'll be happy to read and comment on them. I find the best source of studies and experiments are those based in medical research. Their goal is to heal the world, not get rich. All I've heard so far from you is personal opinion without any citing of resources. Put your scientific evidence out there. But I warn you, if it's colored by funding from questionable sources, it's irrelevant in my book. I also warn you, there needs to be just as many untainted sources for, as against before I will become convinced that my sense of precaution is overblown.
Simple math will refute the “exaggeration” claim. Millions of people are affected...1% of 311 million equals 3,110,000. No exaggeration there. And the 1% figure comes from the “pro” sources for aspartame. The population figure comes from the American government agency of the Census Bureau. It is a fact that there are rapidly multiplying increases in numerous illnesses and diseases which lead to death. The health community is questioning and comparing the rise in incident rates with the introduction of certain types of chemicals within the time frames associated with the rises. The rising numbers, collectively embrace millions of people. I'm assuming your ability to do basic math computations hasn't yet been adversely affected by your fluoride consumption, of course.
“Assumptions of the worst possible kind...” Please reread the part about two governments' involvement in the Monsanto boo-hoo fest over Rowett Institute research findings. Please reread the part in a previous post that outlines how aspartame achieved its approval. Not assumptions, but fact. Arthur Hayes Hull, upon his appointment as FDA commissioner, assigned a 5 person Scientific Commission to review the Board of Inquiry's decision regarding aspartame. The panel came to a 3-2 decision to uphold the Board's decision. Hull appointed a 6th person and then had another vote taken which tied, leaving him to provide the tie-breaking vote. He lost his job as commissioner and then took a position with the PR firm that represents Monsanto. The fact that I find fault with this type of manipulation makes me a conspiracy theorist?? So I should accept the approval as true and just, regardless of how it was attained? Or are you saying that the documentation on Hull's behavior and subsequent release from his position is false? It was a news worthy event that you will have to take up with those reporters who must have been, oh no...conspiracy theorists (whispering).
Tell you what..Let's you and I present ourselves to a research lab on aspartame. You be the guinea pig and I'll be the control group. Let's see who lives longer and healthier.
I have been actively involved over the years in a number of issues in my state on a wide range of issues. If you think there is no government involvement in what is permitted to be voiced and addressed, you truly are ignorant of the American system. An example: I was a member of a private group concerned with educational issues dealing with handicapped children. Public organizations such as The Association for the Blind, The Cerebral Palsy Association, The Association for Retarded Citizens, which are non-profit help organizations, came to us to get specific information out to the public. Why didn't they do it themselves? Because they received a large chunk of their budgets from government subsidies and they were limited in regards to what they could say or do regarding government decisions that affected their clients. If they formally protested certain actions being undertaken by government decisions, they stood to lose their funding. Does that sound like democracy to you? Or fascism?
“Not necessarily in their beliefs...but in their approach and conviction.” A belief is an idea that one is certain is true. A conviction is a strong belief. So what you say is that Alastar and I aren't necessarily wrong about our beliefs, but we are. Okay....that makes sense...how? Your statement that we are wrong is a statement of absolute. You speak of using scientific approaches. There are no absolutes in science. In fact, science is a set of man-made rules and criteria based on man's observations. The rules and criteria change as advances in understanding are made. Science is nothing but a bunch of theories that subscribe to a determined set of rules. When we speak of something being scientifically proven, we are saying it fits a specified criteria based on what we now understand in this moment. It is the best explanation able to be reached through our observations. Now, understand this...there would never be any advances made, no additional knowledge gained if we didn't question the rules, the inconsistencies, the findings.
I believe what you really want to say is that our approach is not one of empirical research which is a way of gaining knowledge by means of direct observation or experience. My many experiences with my government have provided me with the knowledge that my government suppresses and controls what information gets into the public arena. I have observed some of their methods of operation from first hand experiences. So my belief is founded in the truth of my personal experiences.
As a non-American, you only know how the American government is supposed to work, which is not necessarily the reality. You have no first hand experiences, only assumptions based on the filtered information you receive second hand through mass media outlets. My brother is in broadcast journalism. He could provide you with some information of how suppression is applied if you are interested. Having a foreigner give an opinion on the merits of my government is like a childless couple espousing the merits of having children and then making recommendations of the best way to raise them. There's no vested interest there.
My point in bringing up our food supply was an example of the error of your logic. You were the one to take issue with the example. So let's try this again: Your belief that 9/11 was not an “inside job” is based on the idea that a government wouldn't do such a thing. My stand is that there are too many inconsistencies in the official story which I would like explained in a manner which will provide a seamless picture of the events. No one has been able to do that. Still unanswered questions. The government is made up of people...human beings who, as such, are afflicted with the human condition as much as the next human being. Some people are good and honest and strive for justice. Some people are greedy and self-serving and deceitful. People employ all manner of behaviors to achieve personal agendas. Our government employs thousands of people, many of whom are likely to be of questionable character. Therefore, your assumption is erroneous and illogical.Terri Meredith: Your deep felt spiritual connection to the Gettysburg National Military Park with it's history of bravery, conviction, and sacrifice, became crystal clear to me as to why you have that connection after reading this magnificent post. You are the quintessential American citizen and woman in my opinion.
Thanks a bunch Alastar! I have low tolerance for those who lump everyone into categories without taking individuality into consideration. I fail to see how questioning others' motives and actions when there are inconsistencies makes a conspiracy theorist. While all conspiracy theorists ask questions, not all who ask questions are conspiracy theorists. Furthermore, if it weren't for people who refuse everything at face value, there would be many very real conspiracies which would go undetected.
Here's a link you might enjoy. Someone on here made the comment that they've never seen a conspiracy theory that was ever proved. Well, here are 14 of them...some fairly recent, I might add. Interesting reading!
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archiv … racy-facts
Went balistic:
http://thisisdiversity.com/img/forall/Image/bullet2.png- ahorsebackposted 13 years ago0
Again , please check out the alighnment of the bullet path by knolyourself and you see the naivete of conspiracy theorists . Turn Connelly towards the sound of the bullet after he twists in the seat and the line can be made to be straightened! Who do you believe ,what you wish to ,or the truth!
- ahorsebackposted 13 years ago0
I very informative study was shown to slightly change the position of the two victims and immediately the path of the bullet straightens. from your little zig zaggy path there . Do your research !
ahorseback is right. Though JFK is slightly more credible as a conspiracy theory than 9/11, the evidence just doesn't amount to anything substantial. The so-called magic bullet is quite easily explained if one appreciates that Connally was not directly in front of JFK but rather he was seated further into the middle of the car. Also he was not seated at the same elevation as JFK, but rather he was lower in the car. Also his body was turned.
Put all of these facts together, and re-enactments have shown that it is possible for a suingle bullet to have struck both men without deviating from its course.
Jacki-O says Johnson and his business tycoon buds had JFK killed....you think she's a loonatic too?
I'll never forget what she said: "If they're killing Kennedy's, I'm getting my children out of here."
....Does that sound like a "lone killer" was responsible? Who is They?Took her kids to an island in the safety of a Greek tycoon.....
Why, if Oswald had been killed????
Who was she afraid of?Here's another bunch of dumb people who don't know what they're talking about:
"The governments of the present day have to deal not merely with other governments, with emperors, kings and ministers, but also with the secret societies which have everywhere their unscrupulous agents, and can at the last moment upset all the governments' plans."
Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli of England (1876)
"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government of the U.S. since the days of Andrew Jackson."
Franklin D. Roosevelt
"The government, which was designed for the people, has got into the hands of the bosses and their employers, the special interests. An invisible empire has been set up above the forms of democracy."
Woodrow Wilson 28th President of the United States
"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the US, in the field of commerce and manufacture,are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive,that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."
Woodrow Wilson 28th President of the United States
"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists."
J. Edgar Hoover
******
I choose to believe these men. And I "feel" it to be true. Whoever controls the information, gets you to believe what they want you to believe.
But sometimes what they want you to believe is so ridiculous, it defies logic.
That is how I view 9/11, AND the Kennedy murder. And people just dismiss all the questions.
Go ahead and believe what you want....others have the right to do the same. OBVIOUSLY, if what they said was true, there would BE no questions!Just a few points on your last message lovemychris;
1) Although the eminent gentlemen you mention undoubtably knew what they were talking about, they were not talking specifically about the evidence relating to JFK or 9/11. Each case has to be considered on its own merits.
2) Whoever controls the information may get people to believe what they want them to believe in a totalitarian state. In a democracy, for all its faults, and the faults of the politicians, there is an opposition party, there is a free press, and a reasonably independent police force, and there are plenty of people willing to pay good money for informers who can provide inside information leading to the truth.
3) People do not just dismiss the questions of conspiracy theorists. As I understand it, almost all (if not all) questions relating to these events have already been considered and a rational explanation which does not require conspiracy theories has been provided.I do not think the "official" story about 9/11, OR jfk's murder has been proven!
I have plenty of reasonable doubt.
And I refuse to be BULLIED into aquiecense with accusations of "crazy", "lunatic", and "tin-foil hat".
And in my opinion, it is quite telling that people get SO upset when you don't go along with them. That is a form of psychosis, I think. Whether they know it or not.
We need to be de-programmed!!!As to #1: It's true each case needs to be considered by its own merits. However, when determining the credibility of groups, agencies, or individuals, one must look to the history associated with each of them. Even in a court of law, backgrounds and past actions/behaviors are examined before making a determination of integrity. Our gov't has had many occasions where we know some of the officials were corrupt and engaged in conspiracies that provided some gain to themselves. Watergate and the Iran-Contra Affair are just two of them. The more recent incident involving Valerie Plame took place after 9/11 during the Bush Administration, by administration officials. This would pretty much support that some in the administration are quite capable of willfully jeopardizing lives. How many people disappeared or were known to be killed because of the actions of those involved officials?
#2: Ever hear of Operation Mockingbird? Not a theory, but a very real conspiracy, and one that literally bought the big players in mass media...all for the sake of spreading the US government's propaganda agenda. Now, what was that you were saying about free press and an opposition party? This is America where money is the deciding factor, not Utopia where everything is how we'd like it to be.
#3: Just who did the considering and explaining? The only explanations I've ever heard have come from the very mouths of those being accused of the wrong doing. I might be swayed if an independent investigation was done by others not associated with any government agencies or officials. I'd like to see and read for myself a report that explains how the laws of physics and thermodynamics can be made to fit the free fall of the WTC buildings. Every professional who initially came forth with questions about what they KNEW to be inaccurate or impossible, has had their careers destroyed by name calling and ridicule rather than a mature and logical discussion of the questions being raised. I also find it a bit creepy that quite a few of the survivor witnesses died relatively quickly after disputing some of the official stories.
I have questions. Others are telling me how it is, and how I must see it.
I don't think so.And,on a final note, my friend was set-up and framed by these so-called independent police, and the lying testimony that did him in was from a police informant.
Who was a known drug-dealer, and knife-weilding bully.
USA USA USA........I DON'T THINK SO.Of course I cannot speak re-your friend, and there are undoubtably rotten apples in every barrel.
As far as 9/11 and JFK are concerned, the fact remains the police are reasonably independent, and if the evidence is presented and is convincing, then it will be investigated by someone in a democracy - journalists, technical experts, politicians or eventually the police.
Remember in the recent past, senior officials in your country and mine have been forced out of office by revelations or investigations and some have gone to jail. Even one president has been forced out of office - OK, maybe a lesser official would have gone to jail, and Nixon didn't, but the fact remains the evidence did come out.
In a case like 9/11 or JFK, the offences would be far more serious and far more people would have to be involved in the cover up. It could not be concealed. would eventually be revealed.Well, Jacki-O....lo these years later, is revealed to have believed that LBJ and his oil-tycoons had JFK killed. Maybe she would know some things we don't.
Bob Kerry, who was on the 9/11 commission said that maybe in 30 years we will get the truth.....
How anyone can say they know for sure is beyond me.
OH!! Just remembered....JFK Junior!
His magazine, George, was about to launch an investigation into his father's murder........and he dies in a plane crash.
1+1=2Orchestrated by LBJ's ghost, no doubt with help from the CIA and/or FBI or possibly the Chicago mafia or Fidel Castro.
lovemychris - now JFK jr. could possibly be a conspiracy. He was also getting ready to enter politics full time and run for political office. It would not surprise me if, and it's a big if, this was more than just an accident. And, then again, it could have just been a fluke accident. Who knows? But that he dies just as he was making some major changes in his life. And, you know he would have run for president of the U.S. at some point and time. I'm not a big conspiracy believer, but when it comes to the Kennedy's anything is possible
My recollection is that Kennedy junior's small plane crashed at night as a result of his exceeding his piloting ability, weather and/or other perfectly explainable factors.
From Wikipedia:
The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) declared the crash was caused by: "the pilot's failure to maintain control of his airplane during a descent over water at night, which was a result of spatial disorientation".[1] The NTSB and other aviation professionals also cited numerous interrelated factors that may have contributed to the crash.
That's good enough for me.
The United States government itself said that JFK's death was probably due to a conspiracy...but not many talk about this...
The Zapruder film was not common knowledge until long after the Warren Commission "did its work"...If anyone should be angry at this douche it should be because he is starting this whole argument, bringing up such a touchy subject only for personal gain.
Notice how all of his replies after the first are nothing but links to his bullshit, poorly written hub.
He is cheating you all and playing with your feelings to make a quick buck. Literally.Thank you everyone I have 3rd best forum topic on Hub pages, it goes to show the best topics are the one nobody wants to raise or talk about. So I encourage anyone to write about things that are off topic and contrary to what the media says or does.
And one less hub thanks to your shameless promotion. Owned.
@SOE You got me SOE I'm not the best writer in the world i'll admit but personal attacks are uncalled for. No one told you write in my hub forum if you didn't agree with any of it. And I'm guiding what people are saying either Asshole. I started this forum topic just to ask a simple question, and I'm glad of the out come, i know you didn't think of it and I'm sure you wish you did but hell that life. So pea brain if you dont have anything else to say in this forum please dont comment again in here.
No, you started this discussion to bring traffic to your hub and make money through the manipulation of others feelings on the issue. That is more than apparent.
- ahorsebackposted 13 years ago0
Ohh yea ! The intellectual hub-sociopaths have arrived , Its time to throw out common sense , decency and reality too . "Come on people now smile on your brother "..........
No. You only need 1 person to come out and say "I helped do it." It reeks of incompetence and bloated bureaucracy, not conspiracy.
It never ceases to amaze me how human beings can and will convince themselves that the easiest path to follow must be the "correct" one. Why is it that by merely asking questions, those doing the asking are always labeled as trouble makers or conspiracy theorists? Why do questions scare so many people? It's our responsibility as US citizens to monitor our government and that includes questioning any and every statement or action that doesn't seem 100% plausible. Even if the answers appear to be 99.9% plausible, we should be questioning the .1% that doesn't add up.
Though there have been many inconsistencies related to the events in question, I personally would like to hear some convincing explanation of how a hi-jacker's identification could be "found" at ground zero. The culprit allegedly was inside of an airplane that crashed into one of the towers. The crash created a fiery explosion which generated an enormous amount of heat. It generated so much heat that it melted steel to the point of compromising the building's integrity, resulting in a free-fall into it's footprint. REALLY???? Rescuers couldn't find much in the way of bodies and body parts of those poor victims in the tower, never mind the plane. But I'm supposed to believe that a piece of paper and plastic escaped the inferno to miraculously identify the perpetrator. REALLY???? And this nonsense doesn't strike any of you as being just a little bit too much overkill in trying to convince us of the official story? Wow. I find it hard to believe so many Americans are stuck on stupid!@ terri I have an interesting blog on this topic <no promotional links>
Hubpages has said there something wrong with the post "substandard" they call it. ******* ridiculous, That the only thing I hate sometimes about this site, but when its back up and running check it out.I have an interesting link on your condition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopath
"Decades of right-wing propaganda has warped their minds, collectively. They listen to AM hate radio all day, then watch Fox News all night...their brains are literally being re-wired by this conservative noise machine.
It's frightening...it's a systematic attempt by the right-wing to remove any trace of empathy or compassion, and to instill a spirit of meanness and bullying among its followers.
You can see it in everyday conversation...talk to a typical right-winger, and they instantly start trying to shout you down, imitating their favorite demagogues like O'Reilly.
It's a really strange and scary phenomenon that's going on in this country. I don't know what the end game is, but it will NOT be pretty."
...a fellow AmericanLMC, you have one heck of an imagination. Perhaps you should consider writing a novel, maybe science fiction or fantasy. You'd do well in either of those genres. Just please stay away from NON-fiction. You may hurt yourself.
I can assure you the last thing I want to do it shut you down. I get too big a laugh at the ridiculousness of your posts. Do you own a hat, by chance, that's made on tin foil?No, mine's a three-cornered one with little tea-bags dangling from it. And I'm the best durn Amuurican thar is. The best--yahear me?
Why, when the doctor spanked me when I was born, I didn't cry, I started singing the National Anthem! That's how patriotic I am.
"Ameria, America" whack! "God shed his grace on thee" Whack!
Momma told me the doctor's hand turnt red, white and blue.Come on, now. You need to get the terminology right. It should be "one a' them thar tri-corn hats with little tea-bags dangling from it." If you prefer tea bags to a price tag like Minnie Pearl, we'll let ya! Whatever floats your boat, LMC.
I'm glad you're lightening up some. All this conspiracy talk had you in what seemed like a very strange state of mind. I'm glad to see you back to normal . . . . well, as normal as a Liberal can be, I guess.
- ahorsebackposted 13 years ago0
Do do ,do do, do do.......Teenagers on steroids couldn't come up with better stories , lets see , bigfoot , the swamp man , the headless horseman!
Yes I know. Everything is just as you see, think, feel and perceive it.
No one has any right to say otherwise....I get it.@ahorseback: During WWII, the Germans and Russians laced the drinking water of their captured enemies, in order to promote docility and remove the desire/will to fight for their freedom. Our own government set up a campaign to convince Americans that this same chemical used by the Germans and Russians, is actually GOOD for us, in order to promote its use in our own drinking water. The truth behind this chemical is that it is a toxic substance that collects in the pineal gland, causing serious disruption of the endocrine system. It does the exact opposite of what we've been told to believe for over 60 years. It accumulates and its destructive results are passed on to our children. It's a substance that is actually a waste product of manufacturing nuclear weapons. It's a substance that was quickly becoming a problem as so many workers were becoming sick from working around it. There was a great threat of serious litigation and American citizens rising up against its use. What better way to accomplish killing two birds with one stone than to convince them it's GOOD for them? Use the citizenry as a toxic dump site by having them consume it while destroying their fierce fighting spirit at the same time! The chemical in question is fluoride.
If you think the fluoride issue is "just another conspiracy theory", then you haven't done your homework. There are government documents as well as correspondences from the military generals working the project. No teenagers involved at all.
Now go get yourself a great big ice cold glass of tap water. Remember, it's important to our health to drink at least 8 glasses a day!
- ahorsebackposted 13 years ago0
Perhaps I am too middle of the road , I consider myself a conservative and yet Rush baby, O'Rielly and many others I don't really think are very good at all, at what they do ,generally dishearten me! But I would much rather go down loving my country over the enemy within. Todays liberals all have one thing in common : They hate the US from within! Period .
Bulloney! Period.
And this is exactly the result of rabid-righty propaganda.
You don't know liberals, yet you say that.
People don't know Obama, yet they say he hates America.
It is destructive, and just what that fellow American said: Mean and bullying.
And you should be disheartened by it!
This mind-set now has people running for the president of the United States on it!AMEN, ahorseback!!! Liberals do hate the country from within. I've listened to Rush, Beck, and O'Rielly and these are guys that must be taken with a grain of salt and a dose of good commonsense.
LMC, I believe Obama hates America and I don't have to know him personally to believe it. His actions prove it. He wants to fundamentally change this country and to hell with the Constitution. Could it be that you don't have a problem with this because you have the same disdain for our founding documents? To this I say, "Delta is ready when you are."
There are countries all over the world that embrace yours and Obama's ideology. Perhaps it's time for all Liberals to consider relocating to some place like Venezuela, Cuba, or even China. Maybe then you'd realize what you had when here. Unfortunately, I somehow doubt it.
- ahorsebackposted 13 years ago0
L M C ,Tery Meridith , understanding liberal theory is like listening to Micheal Moore and hoping for common sence to inject inself into the conversation .&%@##! I was a young man in the sixties and seventies and really wanted to believe that the "New" generation of liberals was going to change the world ! Really hoping that becoming enlightened by thinking and acting "outside of the box" was going to change the country ! AND it did change the country , except it changed it for the worse! And not that traditional consevative political theory and action is a lot better. But , it is more positive in its presentation and in outcome. Liberal theory; is all about entitlement and devisiveness ........and floride? Hey I grew up in the country with a spring fed well for water , whats my excuse?
Well, silly, haven't you been following all the reports of how the toxicity is in our ground water as well? And please don't forget that it's in all our toothpaste and mouthwash products. You brush your teeth with it everyday and have been doing so for the last 40 odd years.
I, too, am a product of the 60's and 70's, so spare me the "I'm so wise because of my age" crap. And for your information, I was a straight ticket Republican for most of my voting life...right up until Daddy Bush put the whammy on us. I voted for him the first time. I did not vote for him the second time around. I did not become a Democrat, either.
I find it interesting that you and I were on opposite sides of the fence, yet both became disillusioned with those of whom we had identified. That sort of says something, doesn't it? However, unlike you, I have NOT done a 360 turn and decided the other side was the end all and be all.
Liberal theory or Republican theory...really??? Lets see...liberal theory is all about entitlement and devisiveness...could be. There certainly are plenty of people who believe it is society's responsibility to care for the downtrodden, to lend support in an effort to elevate them to better living conditions. And since our society has formed a government designed by the people, for the people, that would be some indication that even the downtrodden are entitled to protection and care. The problem is not with being entitled to protection and care, but with drawing the lines on how MUCH protection and care. What is the point at which providing begins to have a detrimental effect rather than a beneficial one?
Take a look at some of the programs designed to "help" lift them up. Welfare recipients in my state are afforded some college education that will help them compete in the job market. Great idea, except there are only two courses from which to choose...being a medical assistant or a chef. Neither of these "careers" offers much in the way of income. The avg. pay for a medical assistant is $9-$12 per hour. For chefs, the pay range is about the same unless you've made a name for yourself in the restaurant industry. These programs simply keep them on the dole, any way. So while they might be contributing some money to the economy, it's pretty much a wash. Staying at home, there are no daycare expenses which cost as much as monthly rent and many times more. Going to work might take them off of food and health programs, but it will still cost the government just as much in daycare and rental programs. In fact, those salaries will keep them in a position of qualifying for most programs, though perhaps a bit modified.
Republican theory...give tax breaks to big corporations because the money will "trickle down" in the way of job creation...maybe, but so far it hasn't ever happened. The evidence is that CEO's and stockholders are the only ones who benefit. The income gap is ever widening which is the most devisive of all. Such tactics have systematically eliminated the middle class to the point of near extinction. Every year, more and more of those, formerly members of the middle class, find themselves now in the company of the poor and downtrodden. Now they and theirs are dependent on government programs for survival.
Try as you might, it can't be solely pinned on Obama or the Democrats. Republicans have historically taken the stand that the financial welfare of the country rests with allowing the wealthy to keep their money through special benefits and tax programs, while placing the burden of caring for the downtrodden on the shrinking middle class. It's as if they're saying, "Hey, we are the ones who give you the jobs, so you should show your thanks for the privilege by paying for everything else." Never mind that these employers are making far more money from the efforts of the workers than they are paying out. They ignore the fact that it's a joint effort between employer and employee to create a successful venture, and the responsibilities should be distributed accordingly.
The bottom line is that Republicans and Democrats travel two very different roads that lead us to the same destination. Extreme views in either direction leads to imbalance. Placing too much weight on either end only serves to bring destruction. Ever build a house of cards? It's all about balance and placement. Too much weight and force in one area and the entire creation comes tumbling down.
We are living in a house of cards, my friend, and it's crashing down on our heads.
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