If God Knows Everything
Believers believe that God knows everything. Then why many believers pray to God loudly, shouting and many times on microphone?
The bible tells you why...it has to do with keeping up certain appearances. A form of Godliness. They want to be praised by men, most often.
genaea - a believer praying on a microphone may not necessarily be doing it to keep up an appearance. Of course, we know the microphone's purpose is to magnify the sound so everyone in the building could hear what's being said. In an open-tent revival service or in a large auditorium, such things are necessary.
Yes, you need to project your prayer? Jesus said that in... Can you help me with that? I did say most often. I believe ( for some reason ) that you know too well how it goes. Jesus dpoke against showmanship and pride. Most often, those michrophoned prayers are for men to see and glorify the fervent one. It is against God. Pride goes before destruction. When you pray to God, why does everyone need to hear it?
I understand, not disputing that some do pray to be seen by others, like the bible says in Matthew 6:5 "When you pray, don't be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them".
I guess the bad ones do always give the good ones a bad reputation. That we both agree on. Take care sis.
To lead a congregation in prayer, sometimes we use a microphone. If there is no microphone, then pray loudly. This brings unity in prayer. After the prayer all those who are in the congregation say "amen" that means they unitedly agree with the prayer offered.
Thanks for your understanding.I am not sure I understand why everyone must agree with the prayer in unity. I thought prayer was a personal matter. Remember when Jesus went a distance away from his followers to pray? He did not say, "ok warriors, join hands, we gotta pray about this thing." He always blessed bread, but I don't remember a prayer being spoken. I remember standing in church with my head bowed and hearing the very loud microphoned prayers and I hardly ever knew even what the prayer was. There was so much hollering and moaning into that mic. And let us not forget the speaking in toungues. I mean how can I understand or agree rightfully? I wonder about communal prayers. Did Jesus lead one? The prayer he taught did include the words our and us. We just gotta be careful.
It is better to know Jesus and avoid all arguments. Focus on Jesus: I would like to share a Vision by By Mary K. Baxter.:
"Jesus, have mercy!"
"O, Lord!" I said. It was the voice of a woman. I looked at her and wanted to pull her out of
the fire. The sight of her broke my heart.
The skeleton form of a woman with a dirty-grey mist inside was talking to Jesus. In shock, I
listened to her. Decayed flesh hung by shreds from her bones, and, as it burned, it fell off
into the bottom of the pit. Where her eyes had once been were now only empty sockets.
She had no hair.
The fire started at her feet in small flames and grew as it climbed up and over her body. The
woman seemed to be constantly burning, even when the flames were only embers. From
deep down inside her came cries and groans of despair, "Lord, Lord, I want out of here!"
She kept reaching out to Jesus. I looked at Jesus, and there was great sorrow on His face.
Jesus said to me, "My child, you are here with Me to let the world know that sin results in
death, that hell is real.
I looked at the woman again, and worms were crawling out of the bones of her skeleton.
They were not harmed by the fire. Jesus said, "She knows and feels those worms inside."
"God, have mercy!" I cried as the fire reached its peak and the horrible burning started all
over again. Great cries and deep sobs shook the form of this woman-soul. She was lost.
There was no way out. "Jesus, why is she here?" I said in a small voice, for I was very
scared.
(You may download the free ebook from net by googling "A Divine Revelation of Hell": Hear the eyewitness testimony on
the True Existence of Hell. Mary Katherine Baxter)I've read that very book. There is no way to avoid all arguments. This argument is extremely expedient. The war is in motion. How can they hear...? All will know. Soldiers are in place. God wants all of his children.
Thanks for your understanding. Jesus is the only way to salvation.
Repent and pray to God and secure your salvation.
ThanksNot only you, but all those who read this post must repent and secure the eternity.
thanksI don't get it. Does that go for you as well? To be clear, are we repenting for the posts? Or are we repenting for our daily sin... And to ensure eternity is kind of unclear too. Enternity is ensured no matter what. What we do for eternity depends on other factors. Please clarify.
On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25 You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
“‘Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord
and against his anointed one.[b]’[c]
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. 29 Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.Thanks. I was hoping for a prayer that Jesus led communally. I guess there wasn't one. However, the day of pentecost, good example. This prayer was obviously needed. I wonder if they said, "Right now Lord!!!" or, Aww-aww, or any of the other characteristic moans. As I said before, God searches the heart's intent. He knows who is and who is not.
I can remember that I used to be a "restaurant prayer". I was turned off by it when I realized that I did it for show. I realized that it was not the prayer to God that concerned me, really. It was all the looks. Especially if I could say, "excuse me" and bow down, at the table. It was not that didn't know that the Lord had my back already. I had a point to prove. See me world. I was convicted. It is rude to stop a dinner conversation to utter a prayer. I prefer to do it in my spirit, on the way to the table now. It is just not about the show. I know that back then , I did not intentionally set out to "showboat" It was really not a conscious effort to get attention. I just realized that it was rude, most often. And then a sense of pride that I had prayed to my father when everyone else did not. It was not for my food. It was subconsciously for my friends. Once the light had shone on that flaw. I changed my mind. God now blesses my food even before I get it. Please don't take this to be a personal, "I hate your way" matter. I just wanted another point of view. God is only upset with prayer when it is full of self. He loves to hear from us.Jesus took Peter, James and John to the mount of transfiguration to pray with him.
Jesus also took his disciples to Gethsemane for prayer.
Collective prayers are more efficient than praying alone.Good point, although at Gethsemane he wasn't really praying with the disciples because he went alone to pray and they fell asleep.
There's also the Lord's prayer where he prayed with the multitude to teach them how to pray.
Also there is the passage that say's, "when two or three are gathered in my name there am I also". Presumably you would gather to pray, would you agree?
As I've said I can't condemn anyone for praying regardless of circumstances, God knows if it's true or not.
Thanks for bringing me back to the subject.My bible says, he took James, John, and Peter to the mountain to be alone. The two translations I have say nothing of prayer. Also, I mentioned the "garden" prayer. He walked away from the disciples to pray. He asked them to keep watch and they fell asleep, remember? They did not pray with him.
If I may contribute to discussion.
Jesus was talking to specific people. Those pharisee who did showed up their hypocrisy. But when He talked to believers He said speak Word loud (matter). The faith comes by hearing. If it is loud for you, you have remote control. It is not necessary to hate. It damages immune system.
The people who created God wanted a subservient slave cast that believed God would answer their prayers but then go to the preachers for wisdom as to why God seem to deny them. That way they could teach them about being worthy of God and having certain behaviors that was pleasing to God. The louder you ask for prayer the more likely the preacher could hear your weaknesses.
The preacher hearing your weaknessed is not necessarily a bad thing. It will only encourage sincere prayers from others on your behalf. In fact, you can prayer quietly without uttering a word out and God could still reveal your weaknesses to your pastor or brethren. It's all part of the work of the Holy Spirit.
Fortunately I'm a nonbeliever so I am not likely to be fooled by religious agendas and propaganda.
I know Catholics confess to priests; however, the Bible doesn't tell us to go before a preacher. Confessions should be to God directly.
Prayer is talking to God. He is person and likes to converse. Can we imagine when your son would be mute? Besides, speaking Word to God has effect on us. It rebuild faith lost in Garden of Eden.
We are returning His WORD to Him that will accomplish what was sent for.
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.So, where is He? Let Him come out of hiding and talk to us all, what's the problem? Why are you talking with God and the rest of us are not? Why do you believe you're special?
God is not hiding. It takes faith that he is there. It only takes a little faith. He will reveal himself to you just like he did the rest of us. We are not special, we only have faith in him.
It only takes a little faith for starving children to believe in Jesus, but when those same children could hear the good Christians on this forum preaching for others to pray because Jesus will answer your prayers will lose that faith when they die of starvation.
So, when will Jesus reveal himself? Please ask him the next time you speak with him? Inquisitive minds want to know.Inquire no more
To you, God will reveal himself whenever you want to receive him. You have made your choice on that right? Fyi... Just so you know, death will happen all around us for the rest of our days. As sure as you live, you will die. Starving children is our fault, not God's.That is callous beyond belief on his part for a supposedly loving god, I don't know if you have ever seen people starving to death but the indescribable agony they suffer and their deaths before they have any chance to live all of this could be spared with out effort and he does not... Sorry but simply cruel objectively.
Long ago, but to date, nothing. No God, nada, zip, zilch.
Is there some point to that statement, I can only assume that those who starve to death early in life are of no consequence to you, just the circle of life, sort of thing, yes? Inevitable, is it?
God created us to serve Him, nothing more,hence it is His fault for not making sure we're all fed.You don't look like you've been missing any meals. Besides, you say there is no God, so it is your reponsibility to feed the hungry. Quit wasting time with this endless blathering and get to work!
Why would you say that?
Exactly, so please stop praying and do something.
God gets all the worship and praise and I do His work?Theos: the rules of religion/science, isn't it a b!atch.
Troubled,
I'm not sure how to word this...but suzie has offended me, in what she said to you. I do NOT believe the God she is representing. It is NOT your job to do the work, I can assure you of that. Of all I know (which I am ever learning) the work to feed everyone is the job of the Church. But with Christianity (and many other faiths) fading into the background, it's quite difficult for them to do their job.
I don't have any solution, but I do know- that unless we all come together, believers or not, to help our fellow man it will not be long before we have destroyed ourselves. I think we are seeing the beginnings of it in the world of today.
Jesus will reveal himself when the jews acknowledge his messiahship.
Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
very well said, unfortunately the doubters think believers are duped but they haven't tried so they can't know that the proof is internal not external
Which completely misses the fact that many non believers including myself were once devout followers.
Yes, I was a very faithful Catholic and now I no longer believe.
Perhaps you and I also disagree on the definition of faithful.
Was and faithful seem to me, to clash. Is it not so with you?
Nope, I believed, went to church two or three times a week, confession, prayer, read the bible... the full nine yards. Then I matured, started learning, studying science etc. and had some negative religious experiences and my view changed to agnostic and later pretty much atheist.
catholicism is the problem. There is no personal relationship and so many pagan doctrines. Its good and profitable to check out of catholicism but then one should go to some other denomination. Shop around like you would a car you wanted to buy. But when the holiness of God produces your stumblingblock by asking you to give up something very important to you, don't do what others have done and shrug God as not existing.. realize you had a god before Him and went as far as you could go - not leaning and trusting in Him fully to help you - and that your impatience lead you to condemn yourself while He wanted to work on the situation and that should keep you safe.
as a catholic i assure you i have a personal relationship with God and so does everyone in or out of the catholic church whether they acknowledge it or not. I do not know what you mean by pagan doctrines .
Catholic pagan doctrines? Where some faiths stand by Gods demand to only pray to God. Catholics pray to God, after first dividing him in three as well as all the angels and saint and sometimes to those not yet a saints.
there is no three seperate beings in the trinity. The seperation is for our sake to understand the magnitude of God. Think of it like this, God is spirit, Jesus reveals the Mind of God to us, The Holy Spirit reveals the Will of God to us. Jesus said he was going away but he was leaving us the Holy Spirit. Connect the dots.
I understand the trinity. I was heavily indoctrinated to believe that when I was very young. You asked a question about pagan ideology and the catholic church and I answered it. Catholics simply pray to many Gods, but they don't call them all Gods because they know that would be wrong. They claim former humans to have powers in heaven and call them saints and ask the saints through prayer for help instead of praying directly to God. It's interesting and paeanistic.
how can any catholic have a personal relationship with Jesus? After all they are busy praying to any or all of their patron saints and Mary and going to the priests to confess. Just to mention a few pagan practices.
Or perhaps no denomination. The relationship with Christ is one-on-one by grace through faith in Christ. Anytime a denomination, a practice, or a person is included in the relationship it is possible to miss the mark.
Well then Josak, I stand corrected in your case and probably many others. I personally couldn't imagine living without the strong belief that God is with me (or better stated: I'm with Him). You are obviously intelligent and if your philosophy supports you and you are happy, I wouldn't presume to argue that with you
So, you are of the mind that if something is repeated over and over, it must be true.
That's called a logical fallacy.Einstein called that the definition of insanity.
Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Kind of like these two items:
"but the bible says..." and "...starving children...your religion causes so many wars."
Madness is too kind...So, if believers suddenly stopped saying, "but the bible says" would atheists continue to respond?
Is there an actual need for atheists, the concept itself, and a need for atheists to say anything at all regarding religions if the religious kept their beliefs to themselves?
Funny, how you think that's ALL madness when one side is constantly attempting to explain reality to those who reject it.You forgot to add your repetition to the list there.
No, if something true is repeated over and over, it is reaized, eventually.
Sorry, but there is little if any truth in your posts and no amount of repetition is going to change that.
genea: you are very blessed. I can see God has given you wisdom and knowledge. God bless you.
Bless you. Our God uses the foolish to confound the wise.
I am a vessel. He is a marvelous user of broken materials. I am grateful.That's odd, the foolish are only being acknowledged as such as they fail to confound.
God's word accomplishes what he sends it out to do. If you are not moved, the messages are not for you. Therefore, I believe that you, as well, are his vessel; in whatever capacity he chooses to use your disbelief. Your words are considered, as are mine. Just maybe, you (and your words) are being used to confound. God is a Master at "this" "game". He has played it for eons! You, only about 40 years. Take notes.
Your personal version of a god is irrelevant to me as it is to many others. While you fantasize scenarios about vessels and sending messages just for you, others here acknowledge that foolishness. They are your words and no one else.
See? You still have me wrong. The messages are for all of us. One such as yourself would never hear the truth without the "message". I myself am corrected by the words I speak, because I speak what I'm told, most times. God's word is not exclusive. Nevertheless, exclusive to those who believe it. Not you. So I am not really speaking to you, saving for those times you jump up and down for my attention
I am here for you if you need me, anytime.
You think that trees were here before God turned on the lights??? Oh, ok. Everything evolves. God taught nature to survive on its own. Sure, he even controls nature, so he speaks through it all the time. Say what you will. Your choice.(Rub the bottle and the genaea appears in a puff of smoke!
)
I don't think we do have you wrong, Genaea.That fact that you accept those messages does not mean they aren't irrelevant to the rest of us. They are.
Then, whoever is telling you to behave the way you do is dishonest. If I ever get the urge to be dishonest, I'll let you know.
Your personal fantasies regarding gods have nothing to do with evolution and geology. It's not a matter of what we choose to say, it is a matter of facts as opposed to fantasies.You have the facts?
tell me, where did you READ them?For sure!!! But, there is where your faith lies. Don't you see? There is a different report that you believe.
In the real world, we have this little concept called "understanding", which has a tendency to reduce 'faith' to ignorance, hence it is not required for those who understand to "believe."
And, I know you don't see that.Thank goodness!!! I just don't know what my life would be like if it were not for my faith in Jesus' sacrifice and all that comes with it. I don't want any other life. I don't mind that you have reduced my faith with your keen understanding, it is expected.
In other words, you want nothing to do with "understanding"
Yeah, I get that.I understand the important things, to me, just fine. All that other, is not so important to me. There will ALWAYS be a stone left unturned. I understand that too. My faith is sure. That is all I know.
Yes, you've made the quite evident, which is the problem in a nutshell. How one can go through life with no understanding of the world around them is frightening as it is bewildering.
Just so you know, I understand plenty. I know you have picked up on that. Honesty is essential, right? You are most bewildering, though it phases me not. I keep telling you that your words are funny. Keep up the entertainment, please. You may just accidentally understand the RIGHT things finally.
By 'realized', you mean one should wallow in a belief, against all probability that it may not be in keeping with reality, and the echoes it would generate off the confines of your mind, so frequently that one would eventually come to accept it to be true? Seems proper.
Or, you can go with science. No shakiness there...??? Read it until it makes sense??? Does it make sense to you??? "Good" guesses?
no harm with a bit of 'shakiness' or guesses as good as they can be
It really doesn't work that way. People have been brainwashed into all kinds of belief over the centuries, but if you compare most of those beliefs to what Jesus actually said, they don't jibe. Many people 'wallow' in their beliefs, but Jesus doesn't want that. And many people will never believe. I don't know why God reaches out to some and seemingly not to others (although He has reached out to everybody.) There are people who believe in God even there seems 'no good reason' for them to, and there are people who don't believe even though miracle after miracle occur in their lives. But anyone who 'wallows' in anything is simply being self-centered and thinks it's really all about them and what they feel and think. God is not like that and He does not want us to be like that.
I don't see what a fallacy has do do with anything. I know my finance's Harley is nothing but a big fallacy symbol, but it is fun to ride, anyway. I hate it when he guns it at the stop light. The sound of the throaty motor makes him feel powerful.
Oh! Now I get it. You are gunning your motor at the light.fal·la·cy /ˈfaləsē/
Noun:
A mistaken belief, esp. one based on unsound argument
A failure in reasoning that renders an argument invalid
phal·lus /ˈfaləs/
Noun:
A penis, esp. when erect (typically used with reference to male potency or dominance)
An image or representation of an erect penis, typically symbolizing fertility or potency
fi·nance /ˈfīnans/
Noun:
The management of large amounts of money, esp. by governments or large companies.
fi·an·cé /fē-ˌän-ˈsā/
Noun:
A man to whom a woman is engaged to be married.
You're welcome.
Repetition is key? What religion teaches that? That's the definition of insanity...
Did you get to my description yet??? If something true is repeated over and over, is is realized eventually. Insanity does the same thing over and over expecting different results. To me, there is a difference in this case. You can't possibly believe it, unless you first hear it. Once you get past all your questions and denials and reasonings, you are free to choose. Hear/don't hear.
Easy: they are practicing pagans. Think Elijah and the priests of ba`al -the exact practice of most of the believing, less the cutting themselves -in some circles. The evoking of names, over and over, shouting, roaring sound bites from books etc yet continuing to live just like the rest of the world. Think Moshe @ the base of the mountain and what they people did less than a month short of freedom. In short: self indulgent entertainment.
JamesWell they evoke "the name of Jesus" as if they think God will rubber stamp the prayer or that proclaiming the name has some mystical power. They include their memorised sound bites from books to preach to the listeners under the guise of building their faith. Yes a sham that nobody is willing to call out or they are so indoctrinated they don't notice.
If God knows everything, he knows what will do before we do it. So why does he allow us to be deceived by Satan whom he created instead of stopping us?
Because God gave man free will. Essentially we are writing our own life story, God just edits it for us.
Yes, and God "edits" the life out of tens of thousands of starving children every day.
What a loving God. Praise Edits!Still to and fro, seeking, huh? You pick little words to blow up. You remind me of the little rascals. Just more cynical, and snide, and frankly, troubled.
Actually troubled, he can't. He cannot do anything in anyone's life until that person chooses Him. If you do not believe (which is fine) your life is up to you- but it's a lot easier to right a ship when there's someone strong enough to help you. Unfortunately, many of those starving children don't hear the word. And quite frankly, most children don't understand what it is they are hearing.
He must do many things in everyone's life. He is God. He sends rain and sunshine upon the just as well as unjust.
But you can't know that as "god's doing" until you have come to accept god. To most people, that's nature. Which by the way- man knows how to control/change/etc.
I agreee. But if man knows how to control nature, then the dating materials would really be off.
Genaea, please think about what you say before you type it. Man did not know how to date these things even 200 years ago. And controlling it is something new of the last 20 years.
Ok, more info, thanks
For the last maybe 20 years, man has known how to control nature? Well one man in the bible prayed that the rain would stop. And it did, for years. God did that. Did the scientists take that drought into consideration in the dating process? Surely, that would have made some difference. Too many things would sway the results one way or another. Face it; the age of the earth will be a mystery forever. Man is just not old enough. Now I can't apologize for feeling the way I feel. And I don't expect you to apologize. I just want people who want to listen to me, to listen. Are you upset with me for having faith that I KNOW what is important and try to stick to that? While you continue to guess and ponder the age of the earth? If no, why do you continue the parallel? We cant meet of the minds. They march into different directions. We know that. No one has answered that question. I asked a few.Yes they would have. There is evidence of it in layers of rocks in canyons. Again, you base your comments on nothing.
Get outta here
!!! They don't believe the bible. Why would they consider what it says? Are you thinking before you type?Determining the age of the earth is not that difficult and there are very good estimates based on actual evidence which will always be better than something someone "knows" based on no evidence at all. It's always easier to make up the simple answer it's a lot harder to discover the real one which is what the scientific community is doing.
I personally feel that there is ample tangible proof of our claims. It is disregarded. As I do, earth ageism. To me, it is just ludicrous to imagine that such a thing, with all the environment's sudden changes and shifts and catastrophes, bad weather, hard blowing winds, high and low tides, and the plethora of other changes, could occur. You think your gadgets are accurate, based upon your guesses. I don't care HOW educated, it is still a guess. FAITH in another word. My faith's in Jesus
Blowing winds, high tides, and bad weather do not cause uranium to decay into lead any faster or slower. You can call it a guess as many times as you like, but the fact remains that the Earth is approximately 4.57 billion years old.
Your only argument against the accuracy of radiometric dating is willful ignorance. Jesus would not approve.- Can you tell me where Jesus talks about carbon dating? Or did someone you know, make that up? If it was made up, how can we know that it is accurate? I mean surely you can tell me how we know for sure that they measure accurately. Do they test all four corners of our round earth-ball for accuracy? The weather throughout the ages is not available. The missing parts are filled in with more guesswork until finally, a truer truth than yesterday, but not as true a truth as tomorrow. God does not change. And I know he knows the age of the earth. He did not find it necessary for me to know.
How strange he found it necessary for you to buy a computer and spend all your time persuading us that the Christian religion is not to be followed because it rots your brain.
Guess it must have been a long ban huh! anyhow, back with your acerbic wit...
Three months. Must learn to be less honest.
Although I was constantly accused of being here as some one else by some of the other religionists. They seem to forget that bearing false witness gets you a seat by the fire.......... Or is that in the fire?............ 
You know a tree by its fruit. Trees with big ol red shiny balls are called apple trees. You don't get in trouble for calling like you see it. Judgement is forbidden.
Neither Mark you forgot the 'get out of jail free' card we believers have issued when we join up!
Anyhow, good to see you back, it was getting docile for a while around here!Yeah - I know. You guys get to do all the sinning you want because you have a get out of jail free card.
"Do as I say, not as I do." 11th Commandment.
This is why your religion causes so many fights.
If you practiced what you preached..........................Oh most of us do practise what we preach, but hey, we are also only human and sin, the difference is that we also have an antidote to sin, which I call that 'get out of jail free' card and which is available to anyone who will ask for it.
It's called keeping a short account and repenting when we are wrong, anyone can do it, but obviously some folk chose not to, and that is their right.
But I don't see that anyone can complain about it when they have decided not to ask for the 'card'.
Anyhow, I have resolved NOT to get confrontational with anyone, so peace to you and have a nice day, and I do admire your writing, even if I don't always agree with your concepts!Glad to hear it. Thanks.
No confrontation here. You go wallow in your "get out of jail," card.
Just go to the book and understand it for yourself...or don't. I can't convince you that I am right. God does that. We are human by nature as you. Jesus covers sin. That us why he died. We could not save ourselves. He did it. I am soooo grateful!!! I could not belong to God without his gift. Whew!!! Does that mean we should sin? Heavens no! Read it for yourself.
I have read it. Pretty sure it tells you women are not to teach or preach to men. Still - you have your get out of jail free card so I guess that does not apply to you.
Odd how disrespectful you are towards me.
Wow
disrespectful. Is that your final answer? You have no other resort? Rotten brains??? You think this statement is worthy of respect?
"And I know he knows the age of the earth. He did not find it necessary for me to know."
Willful ignorance such as this demonstrates does not deserve respect - sorry - no.
There are many things available for you to know - rejecting knowledge in favor of ignorance and blaming a god as not finding it necessary for you to know? Yes - I think "rots your brain," is an appropriate description.Ok Mr Knowles, I see you have come to a point where you are really cracking up. I don't deserve respect because I don't believe as you??? You must slap in an effort to hide the pain of insecurity? Oh, that's what people do. Misery loves...
I bet you can finish that oneNo - that is not what I said at all. Sorry you did not understand. try reading it again.
Still disrespectful.
The bible does say that God has secrets known to no one. I will never spend my life trying to obtain THAT knowledge. There are so many more important things to know. Now if that is opposite from you, should I be ridiculed? Yesss! The bible said I would.Of course. The bible is quite clear on this. Go around being ridiculous, making ridiculous statements and you will be ridiculed.
Yet you seem to want respect, despite the fact that you do not behave in a way that engenders respect.
What exactly should I respect? Your lack of knowledge and willful ignorance? Why do you think this demands respect?Wow!!! Just filth, flarn, filth from moment to moment. You make ridiculous claims. I didn't call you an air head unworthy of respect for your belief. Soooo LOL!!!
ok. I can't expect you to respect me. There is no "check" for your actions. You don't feel responsible for what you do and say. Who's looking? I however know that I am being monitored. I can respect you because my heart is NOT cluttered with nonsense that makes me irritable, I don't have a disbelief I just cannot let go of. Neither a conversation that I know has already been won by my opponents (the ones who keep smiling in my face while I'm miserable) Sorry - I didn't understand that. What ridiculous claims have I made exactly? I am absolutely responsible for what I say and do. I have not found a reason to respect your ridiculous claims. Great that the bible no longer calls me a fool for not believing - when did they remove that part?
To me, most of your statements are ridiculous. The bible can do, what I cannot. Just a little faith is all it takes; you will be convinced too.
I see. And how does that fit in with respecting me? Because when I tell you that you are making ridiculous statements - you tell me I am disrespecting you. But - that is a one way street? Because of your get out of jail card?
Not really - no. Maybe you could be specific?
Duh!!
You asked what ridiculous claims you made. I responded as I see it.But you have not shown me how me pointing out that the bible tells women not to preach to men is ridiculous. Or how willful ignorance regarding knowledge is not rotting you brain. You specifically said that god does not want you to know how old the earth is.
He did not find it necessary to tell me. Do you read? Or just type?
How do you know that? Maybe God DID find it necessary, and is telling you through me that the Earth is 4.57 billion years old. Will you keep refusing to listen?
So - you think I am foul and everything I say is ridiculous - yet you respect me? Is that correct?
Your words foul. You get respect. Though you scream you don' want it.
I genuinely don't value your opinion of me - no. I do not think you respect me either.
Gotta run - catch you later.
Have a nice day.
Do I not??? I don't call you names because it just aint necessary
I get my points across to you w/o disrespect because you make it easy.
I didn't personally know Ernest Rutherford, as he died 40 years before I was born. But his work discovering the radioactive half-life is valid today and has been confirmed by repeated experimentation. That is how we know that it is accurate.
You don't need to test all corners of the Earth. Just one gives you a date limit for the whole thing.
Now you have brought up a good point in your ignorant rambling - weathering. The erosion of volcanic rocks by water and wind wears them down over time, turning them into sedimentary rocks that cannot be dated directly. To find the radiometric age of rocks, we need igneous rocks that are undisturbed.
The best corner of the Earth to find these are the Jack Hills of Western Australia - this area contains the oldest known igneous rocks that have not been eroded away or thrust under the crust by plate tectonics. These give an age of around 4.4 billion years.
For an even more undisturbed rock sample, we use meteorites. These space rocks formed at the same time as our planet, and have spent most of their time in space, away from wind and rain. These give an age of 4.57 billion years.
True. Science changes over time, and so does your God. Everything evolves: stars, planets, plants, animals, cultures, countries... Even religious ignorance evolves. At least you people aren't burning witches anymore.You are funny. Biblical principles have always been the same since they started; and will NEVER change. Evolution of the religions is not God's business either. People add stuff, take away stuff. Look at your statement to me about making a good point with my ignorant rambling. Obviously, I have considered your arguments. I come up with a good point? And you take away the intelligence of it?
You need certain rocks from a certain area to ensure accuracy??? Other articles of carbon would probably age differently in another environment. Science has yet to find the 400 billion year old sample? Just give him time. The mind is capable of many things
To me, it is a silly notion to go with such a wavering concept. If you don't stand for something, you fall for anything. All the "new fangled" ideas sound probable, possible, or likely. You go with whatever seems to add up "correctly" in your finite mind. I however know how foolish it is to "lean unto my own understanding" I must acknowledge God. He leads me. I can't allow Rutherford to lead me. Though he is/old, he just aint old enough.
Determining the age of the earth is not that difficult and there are very good estimates based on actual evidence which will always be better than something someone "knows" based on no evidence at all. It's always easier to make up the simple answer it's a lot harder to discover the real one which is what the scientific community is doing.
Who cares if they believe the Bible? Whether they believe there are droughts or flood is irrelevant. They don't deny that they happened- they just don't believe it was "God's doing".
Ok. This info of weather is extremely important when dating the earth. The info in its entirety is not available. Plus, it isn't so doubtful that the earth has evolved and grown to accommodate its inhabitants. May be different ages for different areas. Consider that.
It doesn't, quite honestly. Now, most of us consider a bit of understanding about the natural world to be a good thing. It helps us make sense of the world and makes us look less ignorant to people around us. In your case, however, that doesn't seem to be a problem. You are obviously quite proud of your ignorance.
Case in point.Now I'm not positive that we don't look ignorant to the world around us although we try to find out how old Earth is. People are looking at different matters. We do look ignorant to a lot around us. Does that make us to change our policies? Nope. Think what you want. I can handle you thinking I'm ignorant.
To test your theory out lets have a look at cancer wards and see if there are any Christians dying a most painful humiliating death. If your theory were true Christians would be immune to cancers and other illnesses, but they are not. Cancer is an equal opportunist, and no amount of prayer saves lives. Doctors do.
Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. What more is there to discuss?
And sometimes doctors don't. My wife died from Stage 4 uterine cancer and if the doctors had been a little more on the ball, it might have been caught earlier and she might still be alive. I don't know. God works the way He works.
What I was trying to say, was unfortunately no amount of prayer could save her. Cancer doesn't care about religion. It just destroys. I've seen my fair share of cancer and most likely I'm not done with my fair share. She had stated that the reason children are dyeing of hunger in Africa is because they don't pray. I don't think that's fair or accurate. All it does is supply guilt to the sick. If one is told they are dying because they didn't pray enough or right they will become overcome with guilt at a horrible time. This practice of telling people with Cancer they did something wrong should be stopped. I've seen it first hand and it's cruel.
That I agree with, unfortunately there is much ignorance in the world, coming to faith does NOT make someone intelligent of well informed, even if it gives them the opportunity of gaining wisdom, it gives them no inside track to wisdom.
That's kind of a touchy subject for me, as I know you understand. I don't disagree with much of what you wrote. But that's still a little raw for me to get into right now.
Doctors actually kill hundreds of thousands of folk each year, especially with chemo and radiation therapies, so I would not put too much faith in modern medicine.
Hospitals are great for diagnostics, and if the problem is trauma wounds, good at solving the problems, but when it comes to things they do not know the cure for, they are still stumbling around in the dark, educated dark perhaps, but still not much further than when they applied leeches and cowpat compresses.
You are confusing living longer with living eternally.
You are also neglecting that once someone relies upon modern medicine, they are in some small way NOT trusting God and Christ, which is understandable, because every doctor would advise against trusting faith and Gods guidance for a cure, and most of us are conditioned in the 'white coat' syndrome that teaches us that the doctor is always right.
But there are some wonderful testimonies of how God can direct our healing:
http://www.thegoldenreport.com/special- … for-battle
He is still living today, and healthy.
Cancer is a by product of unhealthy living, we may chose to live and respect Gods healthy ways, or chose to not do so, the results will surface in our ways of death.
Being a believer does not grant us immunity from disease if we allow the conditions for disease to enter our lives, nor is faith a 'get out of jail free' card.
But faith does ensure that when we pass, we are with Christ and God, which like health choices in life, is a choice we make that affects not only our temporal existence, but more essentially, our eternal existence.
We are free to chose how we live, and how we die, living for eternal life or eternal damnation.
Your remarks are ill conceived and demonstrate you lack of understanding.
If by the people shouting into microphones you mean evangelists, and preachers/pastors/reverends, it's because they are relaying the message to ears who want to hear. Of course the shouting is optional and an individual choice usually driven by passion, but they are teaching the crowd the word of God. How will people learn about God unless they're opening their mouths to talk about him?
GiancarloLorenzo, God gave us freewill. That means we make our own choices in life and God's not puppeteering.If you are struggling with Satan it would do you well to get to know God that way he's on your side. No one, not even Satan, can come against him and no one can defeat him.God knows everything since He is all knowing. When a person is alone and that prays loudly then that is wrong. He/she is supposed to pray silently. However, if it is a gathering like crusade or any other Christian gathering for the purpose of worshiping God then there is nothing wrong praying loudly using a microphone. The Bible encourages Christians to pray without ceasing but this does not mean that you keep on repeating the same words over and over or praying many words in order God to hear. The Holy Bible farther informs us (Christians) not to pray like hypocrites. The book that teaches us on how to pray is Mathew 6:5-13.
Frequently, too frequently, relgious expression isn't about God at all but, rather, about the person who wants attention for his prayers from an audience.
If I may to contribute to discussion.
Jesus was talking to specific people. He spoke to those pharisee who did showed up their hypocrisy. But when He talked to believers He said: speak Word loud (matter). The faith comes by hearing. If it is loud for you, you have remote control. It is not necessary to hate. It damages immune system.Faith comes by hearing the word of God. It is also stressed that some hearts have been hardened so that they may NOT hear. Some harden their own hearts so as NOT to hear.
We cannot know God's thoughts; nor give him advice. He is Lord
His grace and mercy are free and undeserved. Our faith makes us righteous and spotless in his eyes. Not acts.
My humble opinion was formed many years ago when I used to attend a small christian group. Apart from the Sunday services, There was a prayer meeting on Wednesday evenings.
We joined in "ex-temporary" prayer. Each person could "speak to god," in turn. I learned to do this quite well, and got attention and good vibes from others attending.
Looking back, though, it was totally Ego playing a game! We said what was "nice." We could say things that we wanted to "get over" to others in the room and it could not be criticized since it was "talking with god." Much of what we said in prayer was absolute rubbish. Words got repeated over and over again, like we were talking to an idiot.
"We just ask you Lord....." "Amen!!!!" "Allelujah!!!" "We just pray, Lord, that you will help Jean here to do what is right tomorrow morning when she goes before the boss. That you will give her the right words to say......"
As if a "god" worth worshiping would be at all interested in the petty desires of infinitely tiny bits of dust living on an even more tiny planet in one of the trillion planets of the universe!
Sermons can do the same sort of trick, but in front of a crowd. The priest or pastor says things which effectively castigate the congregation, making sure they understand what is politically correct in "god's" eyes. And the "prayer" the pastor gave at the end of the sermon would be similarly directed.
Fortunately I gave up that sort of thing a long time ago. I am no longer worried by the imaginary presence of a god.
But each to his/her own choice. You don't have to go along my path if it does not suit you.Thanks for this, johnny, I understand and agree with what you say about these kinds of prayers and admire your humility.
I do think that God is more universally pervasive than energy or gravity. He can affect the micro and the macro at the same time and know all things. I think that intelligence and love do not originate with people but is a function of the universe more so than any physical force. The more I know about the universe the more wondrous God is to me. I think He does care about the dust specks as much as the stars and galaxies.
On the other hand I agree we tend to think as man thinks and that limits our sense of God. I might offer that perhaps you are merely seeking a more true sense of Him and that's why you saw those prayers as....well, ridiculous.Perhaps in your heart you have a much grander idea of what God is, if so, that's a good thing.I do not accept the premise of a god existing at all. I have dispensed with that notion, thank you. "God" only exists in a person's mind, there is no more reality to it than that.
I know that you, like others who do have a "belief" in a god, will continue to make the assumption that I "need" god in my life.
You are free to make that assumption, of course. But I do NOT need it, and ask that you totally respect my decision and my wish.
If you continue to pray for me, because you think you know my needs, then that is all your stuff and will not effect me in the slightest.
It will simply show that you wish to "win over on me," to satisfy your own beliefs.
For my part, I am not free to insist that you drop your beliefs. That is your free choice.
It might be that I am misjudging you and that you are not the fundamentalist christian I presume you are. Please excuse me if that is the case.
Live and let live, but if a christian insists upon following the life of the person called Jesus then learn and develop unconditional love, not the imposed one.
(Post editing here: the "god" I refer to here is the one that makes judgment. This god is set up by human beings to lord it over other human beings. This I reject totally. However, there is the possibility that some entity of a being, spiritual let us say for argument's sake, that designed and set in motion this world as we know it. I am open to this line of discussion, because it's wholesome in the true sense of the word. It allows for wonder, mystery, learning more and more, opening our minds to the beautiful and integrated creation. We can only honour and respect such a "designer" by looking after the creation to the best of our ability. Making selfish and self-important judgment on others is not constructive... it's destructive and divisive.)No sir, I'm not a fundamentalist christian, I'm just a bible student. As I've said already in this thread I highly respect anyone who does the right thing for it's own sake regardless of their religious affiliation or lack of it. To be honest, I don't understand how anyone can live happily without a sense of God's presence in their life, but I don't know how a lot of things work so I don't doubt it's possible, likely and happening. For me, I don't believe that God is a white bearded fellow on a cloud somewhere, although we might communicate with Him that way. I see God as the fundamental reality of Being. If you were to strip off all the perception, assumption and misconception from what we know of the universe and add everything we don't know we might some idea of what God actually is by seeing His creation as it is. I'm not agnostic though, I believe that all life stems from Him. He is that which brought us out of the primordial ooze, so although we can't know Him completely, as we develop, we will automatically become more and more aware of Him.
No, I don't need to convert you or change you in any way. I do like to discuss these matters though so I would be open to whatever your thoughts might be.Personally I can not see what value the idea of a god adds to your life.
As for how I can be happy without one in my life, it is simple. I am happy, and yet there is no god in my life. People can be and are very happy without a god.
I used to believe when I was a child. But after extensive study I discovered I no longer believed. However, it was not that simple. Christianity is full of traps meant to keep you in the faith, and even when you no longer believe it is hard to accept.
But once you break free of the idea of perpetual sin and a need to be saved, you become liberated.
I truly was never happier than when I finally broke the last bonds I had with the christian god myth.
Keep an open mind, do a lot of private study, and I can almost promise you will eventually come to the conclusion that Christianity is not the answer. The danger is stopping before you figure it all out because you are scared or feel guilty for not keeping the faith,. It can be hard to do. For some it is impossible.
But if you do, you will see that it is easy to be happy without a god.I fully understand what you mean, Slarty. Pretty well all of what you write I agree with. This has been a similar pathway myself.
However, I do have a "soft spot" for people who are still hanging on to a faith in "something" bigger than themselves. Call this "something" God, or the Divine Consciousness, whatever.
I see each of us walking a unique path from birth to death. Each of us is given (on the premise there is someone or something that is the giver) a set of ingredients for our use during life. Even if each of us got exactly the same ingredients and quantities at the start of it, the Cake-of-Life which we create would be different from the next person's.
This is the nature of wonder and awe with which I survey life now. Had I got stuck and stopped in the religion of my early years I don't believe such a sense of wonder and mystery would have been mine. The christianity gave me a start, yes. Obviously I got some of my moral principles from it, too. But that should not lead us to assume that christianity has a monopoly on morality. It should not be thought that a person believing in original sin and redemption through an envoy of "God" will be any nicer, or right in life, than someone who is atheist in their thinking.
Conversely, it would be wrong to suppose that a person without a faith will be a villain. Just being a christian does not make a person "good." Landing up in prison on a 10-year sentence does not mean that man or woman is inherently evil. The society we live in will of course make its judgment.
Where possible I feel it's ideal if I can try to see deeper into a person's heart and soul before making any sort of judgment. Even then I can be way off the mark.
I have digressed.
The person still retaining a faith in their christianity is not my business. It's all a personal choice. The person who is very comfortable and confirmed in that faith is more likely to be at peace in my presence, without feeling a need to convert me. Conversely the person who needs frequent conversions in order to keep their faith alive is probably living in doubt and discomfort.
Lots of points to consider here.I have to agree with you on all of this. In fact I see so much wonder and awe in the world without a god that in the mid 1990s I helped put that awe and wonder into a religion/world view for atheists called Scientific Pantheism and the World Pantheist Movement.
There are many good arguments for the idea that god is a metaphor for the process of existence itself, defined by the laws of nature.
Carl Sequin said that there should be a new religion for the new millennium based on science. We made that happen. Dawkins recently said fondly that Pantheism is: "Sexed up atheism".
Some atheists don't have any personal world view and aren't very interested in the world or the big questions. I find that a lot of us seem to think that all this is just normal or something. Nothing extraordinary going on,.
But that is because the word atheist means one thing and one thing only: We lack a belief in god or gods. The word atheism tells you what a person does not believe, but it does not tell you anything else. We are a diverse bunch, just as diverse as the Christian faith. Chances are few of us have a lot more in common than any other "randomly" selected group of people has.
Similarities or like mindedness only begins to crop up when people start identifying with specific world views. A person telling you they are a materialist, for example, tells you a lot more about them then just knowing they are atheists.
Eisenstein told us that science without religion was dead, and that religion without science is lame. How can you study science and not see something so amazing that any god myth pales by comparison?
To each their own. But to me, the study of science gives me what I can only explain as the same experiences I got as a child as a believer. The revelations science gives are true religious experiences, with no god required.
You might like Pantheism. No one converts to it. You find your own world view in it or you don't. You discover you are a Pantheist or you don't.
Certainly everyone is free to believe what they like or to not believe anything at all. But if they come to debate then they want a challenge.
I started debating in order to understand my own views better and to have them go through a trial by fire. So I love debating religion, and I don't mind if it gets a bit hot.
But just like you I do feel for some of the people on these boards who are struggling with themselves and what they believe. I tend to tailor my comments for the individual I am trying to debate.
You seem like a very reasonable person. So does Darkland for that matter. That's rare in this place for both sides. I applaud both of you,
Thank you, I respect and appreciate your answer. I can see where you might feel that way.
I have studied this subject all of my life and have questioned faith many times. I agree that if faith is simply based on fear and prayer is based on personal desire for gain that it is conceptually unfulfilling to the thinking person.
I have studied many versions of the bible as well as many different religions in hopes of finding the one, true God. I, like so many, didn't really find Him in a normal church or individual religion, but when I thought about it I always found that my problem stemmed from the way we are taught to approach God. There are many traditions, rituals and beliefs that are left over from other times and even from paganism. I realized none of that actually had to do strictly with the Word of God, only it's application by man. It was reasonable to assume that all of us are simply seeing different aspects of one thing, like Kipling's "Three Blind Men and an Elephant". I believe that all us have some sense of God, we don't look out and see a chaotic universe where anything goes. We see order and system, we depend on consistency and strive to understand it, just like people have always done. The idea of God or gods has been with us since the beginning of reason. You may believe it is unnecessary, but I think, in some form it is indispensable to consciousness.
If you believe that intelligent thought is simply the coincidence of a random chemical reaction and is localized to an individual entity than I grant you are an atheist, but then I think we are falsely projecting order on the universe that doesn't exist. On the other hand, if you believe intelligence is pervasive in the very delicate balance of our world and the universe, and that it can be understood through logic then it follows that you have some sense of a god, even if it's pantheistic. I think it's reasonable to assume intelligence is a function of the universe, that math and physics are universal metaphysical reality and not simply a construct of the human mind. If this is so, it also follows that there may be a super-intelligence, at least within consciousness, that is self aware or perhaps self awareness itself.
The bible was written and almost constantly edited by, in my opinion, some of the greatest minds in history, who believed wholeheartedly in God. They struggled to understand Him in the context of their situation. To me it holds the key to understanding ourselves and the most positive and productive way to think. From all this, I have gained an incredible faith in God and his active presence in the very basis of our thinking. I realize I am making a very large leap here for the reader but it is out of pity for you. I could go on and on and on, but I'll spare you, and for now I'll leave it at that.Your entire post is very thought-provoking. In the quote above, I wonder if the analogy could be taken from our WWW and the Internet. Millions of computers all acting in a conjoined, cooperative manner, with inputs and feed-backs from every point in the system. All sharing intelligence and information. All dependent upon each other yet able to act independently as required.
Could this "God" factor be something like the analogy? Not, as we mostly agree, like an old bearded man in the sky, but an inherent spirit connecting us all and using us as it's WWW.....(com)
(By the way, I might be bearded, but I ain't living in the sky, and I ain't God!)According to Dr Persinger of Laurentian University, if we could all tune our minds to a specific frequency (7.5 Hz if I am not mistaken) we could all communicate telepathically through the earths magnetic field. In a very real sense we are already connected through it, though physically rather than telepathically.
He even seems to have some evidence of this.
The thing to ask then is: Do we really want to be connected telepathically? No more secrets, Id that a good thing? Could drive some us mad I should think. lol...
Never spare me. lol... Say what's on your mind.
The word "god" is a very ambiguous term. What in the world is a god? No one knows really and everyone their opinion. It all depends on what you think a god should be.
Descartes as well as Anselm tried to define god as perfection in the universe. If you can think of perfection then there must be a god because we as humans can only think of things we have experienced. Therefore the idea of god must be implanted into our genetic code so to speak.
Well that idea falls short because we can certainly think of many things that we do not experience, and the way to thinking of perfection is simply a matter of continuously asking how much better it can be until you come to an upper limit.
So since perfection does not give us a proof of god one could make a case for it through existence itself.
We exist. We did not always exist. Therefore something had to have happened to bring us into existence. Hence what ever brought us into existence can be seen as god. Therefore there is a god.
But that formula of logic does not tell you what god is. It certainly does not tell you that god is an intelligence. So you have to ask whether intelligence is required to bring us into being., The answer to that is debatable but if the findings of science are correct there is no consciousness required.
Science does not say it directly, but it is implied in it's findings. If you put, as you say, math, chaos, and the laws of physics together, you have a perfect working model of a system that creates complexity from simplicity using very simple rules.
The Pantheist god is described in many ways. It is the totality of existence, the universe itself/all in it, But I like to think of it as a god process so to speak.
Does the universe require that intelligence of some sort is inherent its fabric? I wouldn't say so. But I will say that I think energy has a rudimentary awareness inherent in it. A potential for awareness. Intelligence implies consciousness of some kind and we can see that as an emergent property of complexity,
Perhaps awareness is too, but it is tempting to think that potential rudimentary awareness may be a fundamental part of energy, even if actual awareness isn't. More data may tell.
That energy itself may posses some kind of potential awareness is just my opinion. I have to add that my opinion does not constitute a belief on my part. It changes as the evidence changes,. I see no reason for faith or even belief. Facts do not require either, just acceptance once they are known. And what are not facts are by definition speculation and there is really no reason to put your faith in that,
I've written a lot of hubs on chaos theory and energy, mass,, entropy and a host of other topics to bring some of these points together. It's a complex topic to say the least.
As a philosopher of science I do find myself unable to make giant leaps of faith or speculation. But I am well aware of the value of putting things in ways others will understand and see the amazing connections many don't know about.
I'll therefore leave some sort of cosmic consciousness in the realm of speculation until such time as it becomes self evident or is falsified.
It is easy to see why people are tempted to believe that there is an super intellect out there somewhere. We think of consciousness as the pinnacle of of creation.
But more and more neuroscience is finding that the subconscious is where it all happens. The subconscious is full blown awareness and instinct. The consciousness is an aspect of the mind that can use tools like logic and reason to educate that instinctive mind.
Feelings/emotions come from the subconscious. Our best ideas come from there.
What happens when you want to learn a new skill? At first you have to do a lot of thinking and deliberating. But as you learn you find you no longer have to work so hard at it. The musician that has to think about the next note misses it. A skill becomes automatic once it is learned, and conscious deliberation about it at that time is a distraction.
Why did Moses think that every word he said came from god? It was because he didn't know consciously where his thoughts were coming from. He attributed them to an outside force. These ideas could not have come from him because he wasn't consciously working them out.
A musician or a writer will often heard saying that t he notes or the words just flow as if coming from outside themselves. Same thing. Our best ideas seem to come in a flash, as if they are gifts from out there. But they are from the subconscious.
Lets do a quick experiment. Without thinking too much about it, I want you to answer a rather simple math question.
If a ball and bat cost 1.10 and the bat is exactly one dollar more than the ball, how much is the ball?
Now it doesn't matter what the actual answer is so don't worry about getting it wrong.
The image you will likely get in your head will be that the ball is 10 cents. That, of course is wrong. But the subconscious will trow up that number in most people automatically. I think in tests done over 70 percent of physics students did what they were told and wrote the first thing that came to mind.
If you think about it you soon discover that 10 cents has to be wrong. But the conscious mind is lazy because it knows the subconscious will automatically give an answer. Even if that answer is not completely correct. it will be in t he ball park so to speak, and that's often good enough,
But if the subconscious is educated enough it will automatically wake the consciousness up and give urgency to the fact that deliberation is required. That's when the poor consciousness has work to do.
Mothers teaching their kids critical thinking in math seem to get the correct answer thrown at them almost right off the bat.
So is consciousness itself what is most important here? Or have we been missing the boat for the last few millennium?
Of course there is no real division between the conscious and the subconscious. They are aspects of the brain and it's function.
As for the writers of the bible, I have no doubt that they were philosophers of their time who were inspired by the idea of a god and felt that they were messengers of that god because they didn't realize that the messages were coming from their own minds. There is even a famous scientist of the early 1900s (who's name escapes me for the moment) who felt this way and wrote about it. The math was coming directly from god according to him, and he changed mathematics for ever He was pioneer in trying to describe an ultimate order through math, only to discover that certainty would elide him for his entire life.
We now know he had discovered chaos theory, from which the simple becomes the complex through extraordinarily simple rules.
Then there was Pythagoras who also claimed his math came straight from god. He even developed a secret cult around it.
Lots to learn and lots to think about. Lots to educate the subconscious with. Just in case we need it.
Even
.
If god knows everything there is no need to prey. God would just know what you need and want . Most Christians prey because they want to petition god and convince him to do their bidding. It;s rather useless in that regard.
I wonder how many have preyed for world peace? Obviously god doesn't want it to happen, praying does not work, or there is no god. Take your pick.
I tend to go with the third option.Interesting and funny slip of the pen there, Slarty.
Some Christians prey on the weak because they make easy converts.I loved the prey slip as well. It is funny that I, not too long ago, had the same "slip" with the word parish. Christianity does not prey. Christianity prays. It is a life "offered" not demanded. There is so much to consider in life. One never quenches his thirst for knowledge. I have taken my stance because: 1. I have been raised around it (the "favored" term seems to be indoctrinated). 2. I have seen it work and unfold for the better part of my life. Christians are not different than others. If you cut us, do we not bleed? RED, let me add here
people are people. We all do wrong. We all have an issue with self. It is our nature. However, the spirit within us, works to create a "clean" heart. We can go to him with all of us. He will teach you how to deal with it for the rest of your days. If you don't want it, you are allowed to have it your way.Children can be 'raised' to understand things without being indoctrinated.
You're free to apply that to yourself or Christians, but not the rest of us. Thanks.
Indoctrination would have people believe gods and spirits exist even though neither one has ever been shown to exist. Using them to support an argument would show being 'raised' was to not understand the world around them.This stuff has been shown to exist to me an many others throughout history. It takes faith to believe it, or anything else, for that matter. I see where your faith lies. Do you see mine? It just depends on the report that you believe. You are made in the image of God. You may decide what you want.
No, it hasn't, that is a false statement.
That is a correct statement.
That is another false statement. Others understand things and don't need to have faith in them.
No, that is part of your confusion in that I don't need faith because I have understanding.
Yes, and I see what's it done to you and how it causes you to behave dishonestly.
I have no idea what you're referring.
Your God is made in the image you've been indoctrinated to believe.
At least, I make decisions based on understanding and not blind faith.It seems that your "understanding" is quite finite when compared to the subject at hand. You have not been "shown" that no such God exists; yet you persist that he does not. I will never knock you for that. You have a right to your opinions. But you use the word liar to describe me? What kind of "bull" is that?
you think that such a defaming word describes my character? So be it. Then, look into your recent past with me and find the lie. See, what has been "shown" to me is mine. You cannot call me a liar simply because i firmly believe that I have proof enough to back up my claims to myself. You mad??? Puzzling... Well, no it's not You, along with every other believer on the planet have shown us your God does not exist by making outrageously ridiculous claims that he does and then providing nothing but your faith as evidence.
And yet, you just did.
Did I? Where? Show me where I used the word "liar"?
I never once described your character.
Notice that your last two claims are false? Why would you make those claims when you know they're false? Why are being dishonest?
You firmly believe you have faith, but that isn't evidence of anything.You said i make false statements. It is not using the word liar, Jach. did that for you. You made the same statement w/o using the word. Sorry
Yes, you make false statements, many of them. Facts have been placed in front of you time and again, but you ignore them and continue making false statements.
You cannot call my statements "false" because you don't believe me. To me, all your statements are false. But who am I?
I think that sums it up quite nicely. Notice that others acknowledge the dishonesty of your posts?
That would answer your question.There are only 2or3 that acknowledge my dishonesty; now THAT should tell you something. Does it???
Absolutely. Will you begin posting honestly anytime soon?
If I were talking about truth, I would have used that term.
We are talking about honesty. Do you need me to provide the definition for you?No thank you. I probably would not trust your definition. We have different outlooks. My honesty, your dishonesty. So...? Again
So, you define words to suit your purposes? Ever hear of a dictionary? That's where I get definitions to words. Try it.
genaea, I love the fact that, despite you and myself (and many others like me) are in total disagreement about some matters, we can still laugh together. Let's keep it that way, it helps to lubricate our minds.
lol... I got it right at least once.
I pray that from now on the correct prey will be on my fingertips.
Most of the prayers are offered in secret.
To lead a congregation in prayer, sometimes we use a microphone. If there is no microphone, then pray loudly. This brings unity in prayer. After the prayer all those who are in the congregation say "amen" that means they unitedly agree with the prayer offered.
Thanks for your understanding.See Elijah’s Public Prayer
(1 king 18:30-40)
Answered public prayers like Elijah will glorify the Lord.Because believer don't know everything. I don't know about the ones "shouting on microphone," that's a tiny slice of believers, but God said we should pray to Him. So we do.
It all has to do with the individual. There is a time for everything and a persons motive plays a great part in this issue. When praying you have be in tune with what you are doing so some people are able to open their mouth to talk to God in their concentrations and others do it in quite. God knows everything but He also says we should make our request known. If I am really crying to God i don't worry about who hears me or not but there are people who just want to show that they can pray or they are soo righteous. That latter attitude is not blessed by God
Because you simply have to verbalize it and make it even powerful. Just like in any other relationships, you can't be silent all the time and let the other person know how you feel without saying a word. And when you're overwhelmed with feelings you have to let it out or you'll explode. It is a gift that we have the power to express ourselves. Ask and you'll receive. Be grateful and say you're indeed grateful.
I don't agree. After seeing your conversations with people I don't really want to have one with you, but I will say that it is not fellowship. It is exactly the opposite of what Jesus said to do. I have never come across an evangelical Christian with a microphone who was not playing the turn or burn card, or doing the dramatic exaggerated body movements. "AND THE LORD SAID".
I live in Toronto so everytime I go downtown I see these people, and often converse with them. Let me tell you this, as a Christian I feel such burning frustration when I see them. I usually feel relieved when the cops come and get them. I honestly feel they are only doing harm to themselves and others.
To sin is to miss the point. Most of the times I have come across evangelicals with microphones they seem to be missing the point.
That is just my opinion. Perhaps you have come across different sorts than I have.Well, if they use the burn card, it isn't fellowship. It's a mission to convert people to Christianity using fear tactics.
Word of advice: If you don't want to see my around then you ought to ignore me. If everyone did, I'd be off these forums. So maybe you folk should make a plan?I didn't say I don't want to see you around Clair, I just don't want to have a discussion because you seem to be quite defensive with most people on the forums. I am not in the state of mind to have an argument today, especially with somebody who is quite opinionated(Not saying that is a bad thing, just an observation). I will not ignore anybody on these forums, ignoring is not very loving. I just wanted to point out that the OP is not describing fellowship. It is describing something altogether different, something that may or may not be what Christ wanted. I personally do not think it is something he would have wanted. Perhaps you think differently, that is fine.
I think people are too quick to be defensive on these forums, remember it isn't about being right or wrong. It is a discussion about beliefs. It is always going to be a matter of opinion, and theory. Don't take things said on here too personally, we are all just faceless screen-names. When we take things too seriously we don't always show the love that Christ would want us to show.
This is just a bunch of strangers talking about big ideas and thoughts, arguing and ridiculing each other. Funny thing is this is the internet, we can be whoever we want to be. There is no saying that these people are who they say they are, that the situations are real or not, if their beliefs are what they say they are or anything along those lines.
I will admit I worded my previous comment to you badly, and it may have come across a little coldly. I am sorry about that. It is not how I meant it. I was trying to say I don't want a long discussion, that is all. Nothing personal.Thanks, I appreciate your comment. Perhaps if I see an argument about to ensue, I should just nip it in the bud else it goes on and on and gets nastier and nastier.
I'm so eager to see Jesus for who He really is but I must not try to hard or else arguments ensue.
We all have so much to learn.
I needed to read your words!Oh no what? I do not understand what you are trying to convey.
You said that you did not want to engage in a long discussion
but it took YOU a long time to say that. Hit/run.That is not long to me :p that is actually really brief. I tend to get into ridiculous discussions.
Also why are you trying to point fingers at me Genaea? I am not really sure why you started looking at my old posts I directed towards other people (who received my comments happily and actually thanked me for my comment btw) and picking out what you perceive to be issues.
What is it you want to say to me? I hope I am not coming across as defensive or offensive, I am just genuinely confused as to what you want from me.I don't want anything from you. I was merely pointing out the "important" matters; like love/respect. She thanked you, I saw that. It was an "old" post to you. When I am busy, I miss the conversation. So I take it from my top. So convenient. I take the time to read in entirety so that I follow and don't repeat. You and I are cool. I am cool with the entire panel. I am not picking on you or singling you out. I only pointed out what I considered an un loving, un fair, lofty attitude. "I will say what i have to say, but I really don't have time for you" is, kinda mean. Sorry to take you back to it. I was catching up, answering as I went. Nothing personal at all. I like your demeanor and intelligence. I questioned that particular post. I see that type of thing all the time on this site and others. Sorry. The "I come in peace" sign is not visible. (voice inflection/ facial expression- though Iv been told I look mean) Im harmless. Very non confrontational.
To be fair... she is protecting herself. The other in the conversation may be void of empathy and compassion. I and others have done the same and protected our selves from the pain that she can cause. I may not agree with you but I will show you respect. That respect is not always given by some. So she is free to protect herself.
To open up to a conversation just long enough to "get your point across" is not protection from hurt. It is more like something else. An attempt to keep from hurt stays away from hurt completely right. I mean, a cat won't walk in front of my dog to make a "statement" she runs in another direction
I wasn't trying to avoid getting hurt, as soon as I realized how I came across I apologized to Clair. I was just preoccupied...I was honestly painting a giant mermaid for a two year olds birthday party. I wanted to dabble in the forums while the paint was drying and didn't want to get caught up and not return to the painting. I had a deadline :p I still don't get why any of this was brought up but I figured I would clarify.
Okay I understand what you are saying. However I would recommend reading how conversations play out when you are just catching up, before you comment. It saves confusion.
Like right there! How do you say to someone, I don't wanna talk to you, but I will get MY point across. Is that fair? Love???
Did you read the next couple exchanges between me and Clair?
I recommend that you do before trying to judge me.
Lutherans, Presbyterians and Episcopalians ask that same question all the time. Believers aren't one group of people, they are many. There are loud and boisterous churches, there are quiet ones, there are churches with extroverts and churches with introverts and every mix in between. Unfortunately, I think, what most people associate with Christianity because of the media and televangalists, are these tv preachers with strange hair, makeup, loudly yelling about Hell and shaking their finger. If that were Christianity, I wouldn't be one.
jainismus,They do it because it teases and enrage the disbelievers or atheist !
The Bible provides instruction on prayer, pray with out ceasing, etc. Microphones are often necessary in corporate prayer. our auditorium seats 5000 people. We have a good audio/visual system which is needed.
God sees everything at once. Our idea of time is an illusion.
Your question strikes to the heart of the true nature of religion, controlling minds. Prayer demeans the human spirit. It's intention is to subjugate the soul by daily self-humiliation. As children we desire independence, but are subject to the authority of our parents. Those who wish to control large populations would have little recourse to doing it (except by force of violence or the threat of it) if it weren't for religion. By convincing people that they are being watched and judged by an all-powerful and all knowing higher power (A Sky Daddy), clergy of all faiths are able to more effectively control the behavior of those who believe. This can have both positive and negative effects depending on the beliefs held and leader's motivations.
Why do you think Pride is the cardinal sin? Because if you have enough respect for your own power of thought, then you can think for yourself and you don't need the authority of God to tell you what you should think and do. The bible says that God sees directly into the hearts and thoughts of everyone, so what truly is the point of making us supplicate him? The answer is simple: subjugation of the soul.Oooo, you said soul, duck!
This post, though extremely well articulated, is so full of fire. Just what you, and those who follow that thinking, are supppsed to think. It is well with me. I am not converting or recruiting. I am telling my story. God is light for me in all this darkness. You can have whatever you like, i am a soul-bearing Christian. My bible says, as a man thinks in his heart, he is.
So maybe that is what all the fighting is about, you have denied your souls. Zombie-like???I'm sure we define "soul" differently. I think of it more as something akin to consciousness which need not incorporate anything supernatural.
Interesting question. I'd also like to know what believers think is the effect of prayer, and that if God has a plan for everything, then does he plan for you to pray to him and for him to answer or not answer said prayer?
This is a common viewpoint, but I think that God answers all prayers. Sometimes He just answers with a flat out no.
Yeah yeah what's the point of letting you pray if he already knows what you're going to pray for and already knows he's going to say no. What's the point of letting you pray for something he already knows you want and then give it to you, why doesn't he just give it to you before? Why does he need some sort of praise from creatures he himself created. Pathetic and petty attention seeking? Save some time for us, please, lord.
Again, at times, we don't know our own motivations. Praying aloud (in your head) is required because you need to hear your own desires, and thoughts. God does the rest when faith is present. He blesses " saints" as well as sinners.
The point, the whole point, is that you have a choice. You have your own mind. You can ask for His help, or don't. Acknowledge He's there, or don't. He knows your heart, knows you better than you know yourself, but He actually gave you your own mind that is able to create. He made you a creator, "like God, knowing good and evil".
Like Abraham and Isaac on the mountain. Like bringing the animals to Adam to "see what he would call them". Until you create something, like a prayer, a decision, a name of an animal, an action, He doesn't know because it doesn't exist. It's not 'of' Him. It's 'of' us.
That's the gift He gave us and life is the means in which He's teaching us how to wield our gift, because it's powerful. Dangerous. Destructive. But without it we wouldn't have a rover on Mars.Haha the point, the whole point, is that he already knew exactly what you would do before he created you in such a way that you would do it making him petty , hateful and evil .
Seeing it that way is your choice too. He could have not given us this capability that gives us the ability to create music and art and literature and architecture and civilizations and mars rovers. We could have continued to live like hunter-gatherer/horticultural humans have, and still do in some places, for tens of thousands of years. But what would be the point of that?
Takes one to know one!
God is not swayed by your disbelief. In my opinion, you breathe because if him. He made you like you are?
We have tens of thousands of "NO" every single day. That is a whole lot more than just "Sometimes"
Prayer isn't about simply asking for whatever you want, it is about relationship. If I had a relationship with a parent and all I did was ask for things that I wanted, and often not things that I needed or would benefit me or others then I would probably not get many of the things I was asking for.
God is not a genie, He is the Creator, He will answer as He sees fit for the greater Good. The problem is we see the micro issues, and not the macro issues. Now tell me, is the unequal share of money and resources God's fault or ours?
Starving children in the East and obese children in the West. God's fault or ours? He gave us more than enough resources, and we screwed up. And continue to screw up.So, when you're hungry, you don't ask parents for food because it's not something you need or will benefit?
And, it would appear that the "greater Good" is where children starve to death by the tens of thousands every day so that Christians can have their relationship with Jesus.
Absolutely, it is God's fault.
What does that have to do with children who are starving to death and who pray to Jesus for food so they don't starve to death?
Your argument fails because there are resources for a number of things that Christians pray for and state emphatically Jesus answered their prayers.
And believers accuse evolutionists of believing in "chance." Confirmation bias, ever heard of it?
Prayer helps the one praying. It is the privelege of talking to the creator. Jesus taught us how to pray. God's will is ultimate and we should want that most of all. However, we are able to tell the Lord what we want as well. The bible shows us that our will does not work, but sometimes he allows us to see for ourselves. His plan does make allowances for his children. Yes, he knows what you need before you even ask.
So, do our prayers have any sort of effect? You say it helps the one who prays? So is God ever influenced by a prayer, or is he is or isn't, does he know he would or wouldn't?
God is influenced by prayer. His infinite wisdom allows for deviation. I do believe that one biblical prayer stopped the rain for years.
God knows everything. He does not think as we do. He sees the entire picture. As we say in my neck of the woods, one monkey don't stop no show. His plan is carried out. He knows how to give us what we want without denting his plan.Yes, God want us to communicate out needs. Not that he doesn't know what we need, but handing it to us on a whim doesn't help us.
Praying and asking - It helps the one who prays (the prayer) because asking and receiving strenghtens ones faith.
God said, "Ask, and it shall be given unto you.."
Even we humans (who are made in God's image) do the same with our children. There a lot more appreciation on the part of the children when they ask of us and then receive than when we just go out of our way to give them everything. That's when things are taken for granted.Actually, parents will usually feed their children when they ask for food. Are those children taking their parents for granted?
Prayer is a little more than just asking for things. It a way to thank God for all he does and also for us to avail ourselves to listen to God speaking to us and giving us direction. God has a plan but as human beings we need to look for God to reveal His plan to us.
The effect of prayer makes God reveal His plan for you. When we aren't sure of something or what to do, we pray. Then whatever happens is God's will. Sometimes it will be accompanied by suffering but to those who love God, that suffering has a purpose.
That is simple, they pray to Him because he told them to. God wants His people to have a relationship with Him. That means talking to Him.
It is like when a parent knows their child wants something, and they wait until the child asks until they give it to them.
Praying loudly or silently doesn't make a difference, but God does want us to pray, with people and by ourselves.Well, the thing about that analogy is that, in most cases, the kid knows that their parent exists and they are easily communicated with. Not so, many would say, with any sort of creator.
Tens of thousands of small dead bodies every day would not agree with you, there.
Of course not. They're dead bodies. The energy that animated those bodies is gone. They can't agree or disagree with anything.
Fair enough, I probably should have worded that differently for those who are unable to read between the lines.
Actually, I was trying to address the message between your lines with a message between my lines. I saw yours. Did you see mine?
Sometimes the message between the lines is just white space....
There are many bodies of all sizes everywhere, dead. Some of us are dead too. Nevertheless, God's children know he is there.
Yip, tons know he is there and are still dying -literally, not metaphorically, regardless of the term spiritual or physic. Makes you wonder what is not correct with everyone who does know he is there and why they do not want to pass from death to life -literally, not metaphorically, spirit, brain and body.
James.Now you know that some of us are slow to your game.
slow it down some. I really "literally" don't know what you said.Then you literally need to slow down, because I said it plainly.
You are all dieing -by Choice. Literally by choice and the choices you think about and believe you need to make.You, meaning the non and believing, who continue to play "the game" called Reason, called good-evil. To entertain yourselves while the game goes on: you evoke names, text, perfected memorized prayers -dictations, err, demands really. And then have the audacity -the nerve on both sides to call it faith or a lack of faith.
Ha! Most would not recognize faith if it came up, spit in their face and called them raka! Why? Foremost because their faith is fear.
Secondly, their faith is textual memorization and good-holyghost-preachin.
Lastly, because faith requires logic, not reason.
Faith requires dedication of action, not books and blabber {prayer}.
Faith demands practicality, start to finish follow through of just one thing: manifesting eternal life in each one.
There, slowed down enough for ya?
And to affirm is, Disappearinghead reiterates:
Huzzah! +Infinity. Could not have said this any better.
JamesOh yeah... You have made it to the higher plane of reason, or logic, or something. Carry on.
Higher plane? lol, you're too funny. And yes, when I travel on a plane, do bring a carry on. Why do you ask?
There is a place of being that is way beyond memorised text, beyond recited prayer, beyond creeds and doctrines, beyond man made efforts to have that "relationship", beyond trains of thought, where one is just naturally supernatural perhaps. A place where the conclusion of a thought arrives before the thought process is complete. A place where faith is in-built confidence that needs no support from memorised text or the stories of others. Deepak Chopra calls it God consciousness I think, though I haven't finished his book yet. A place beyond human effort where there is unity with our Father. I have glimpsed it, but thus far it is still of of reach.
I disagree with your characterization of Faith. Faith is credulity, plain and simple. It does not require logic; it rejects it.
So, tens of thousands of children's bodies stacked up each day are irrelevant to you?
A troubled Man. Is it your excuse not to believe in God? I hope I am not hard on you. But you did not take time to come to right conclusions. The Word of God is most powerful force in the universe when dressed in the faith. But here is problem, man rejected His Word. Man changed the faith to doubt, altered His Word. What we can expect? God always warned man with all consequences. I am crying when children get seriously sick, being physician. I had children now grown up. The sin of unbelief releases curse including diseases and death into 3-4 generation. Face with it here is devil, here is sin and wicked man and you ask such a question?
I need no excuses to not accept your God.
Yet, another believer justifying the deaths of children with their religious fantasies. I suppose that makes it very easy to not be concerned and ignore their plights, to create false premises so you don't have to do anything and blame everything on men so you can continue to worship and praise your god.
And, then the child dies of starvation because it didn't receive the morsel of food prayed for... tens of thousands of children experience this wonderful talk with God and the resulting starvation every single day.
For the past 40 something years combined I have watched and listened to news about tens of thousands of starving children in several places in the world. I have watched and witnessed situations where millions, sometimes billions of dollars worth of food donated by nations have been diverted by corrupt government interests and sold to those who don't need it for personal gain.
Those children could have been given hope and aid, but the wickedness of greedy, heartless, Godless people caused them to lose hope and miss the opportunity to be fed.
So, like you rightly said, and I quote, yes "then the child dies of starvation because it didn't receive the morsel of food prayed for", not because God doesn't answer prayer. Because He does. But because the heart of men is desperately wicked. And we are constantly fighting against the good that God wants to do through us.How does that relate to the United States, for example, where children starve to death daily but no such corrupt governments are diverting food donations. That doesn't even explain the other countries in the world where children starve and food is not being diverted.
Of course, you're free to produce the evidence children starve to death because of corrupt governments diverting food?
Ah, so it's the fault of "Godless people" now, in other words, all those people who don't share YOUR beliefs.
Yes, I'm sure that's what you want others to believe, make up anything to defend your God.Greed, Wickedness, and Selfishness on the part of man. That's your answer right there.
You want to talk about the fact that there are children starving right here in the United States? I have seen people on Public Assistance eating far better than those of us who are struggling to make a living. Children starve not because they have to, but because they are unfortunate enough to fall in the hands of irresponsible parents who are druggist. Parents that who rather have a beer or a pack of cigarette than put meal on the table for their children. Parents that hoard food money and every tangible thing they could lay their hands on to buy drugs, alcohol and everything else than food.
I've seen it all. DFas taking kids away from parents who can't even take care of themselves, to to talk of taking care of their kids. Kids forced to eat from scraps because mama or dada is knocked off from his alcohol or MJ.
So please don't blame God for the demise of a society that has turned so selfish and callous, on one hand we have the spoiled rich in HolyWood and right down the road you have those who don't even know where there next meal is coming from.
Your claim, then, is that God wished to answer the childrens prayer for food but evil men thwarted His wishes?
That's certainly a different take on the omnipotence of God!
TM. Starvation is result of socialization of nations. I did live in it. The hunger will become worse.
Doesn't socialization hold a "spread the wealth" type position? If so, how could that be responsible for hunger?
Genaea, thanks for question. Socialism is materialistic system and it is like bad religion, talking and doing differently. On the first place there is distribution of wealth. But they say about rich. If is false. Socialism make all equal. It means equally poor to control. My dad was regular carpenter and save money perhaps $2000 dollars value (but I am not sure about amount). He did save it for worse time, wedding of my sis. or whatever. Suddenly money were changed I mean printed different money. First thousand crowns they changed to ration 5:1, over 50:1 then up the same. People lost all money. The received only for one month to live. My dead was saving for nothing. All money gone. They took all lands and made coop. All lost properties. Nobody want to go and work for few cents per hr. There was shortage of everything. There was concern of loosing money again it happened twice. Then my stepmother when rumor came and bought what ever was available and not needed. For example she bought second baking stove she did not need... There were lines on everything sometime one has to go at 4 am to get coal for heating. There was shortage of medicine and so on. [sorry for my English].
I follow you and I understand. Hmmm, that system sounds a lot like communism. From T.V. Canada runs somewhat of a socialist government. Oh to have universal healthcare... Do socialism and communism overlap? How are they different. Are you from Russia?
The Lord's prayer is "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed....". Why do people go on and on with "Dear Lord, please do this and that and this and that.."?
Didn't Jesus say to only pray the "Our Father"?
RIt's wrong to say, "Dear Lord, please do this and that..."
The Lord's Prayer says, "Thy (God) will be done..." His will and our will can conflict with one another. However, God's will ought to be our will.
In Matthew 6:6 Christ tells believers to go into an inner room,and pray to the Father in secret. But believers, being human, as are people of all religions, rarely do as they are told.
- Emile Rposted 12 years ago
0It is strange. I think, the instructions to believers was simply to pray by themselves and the prayer given had nothing to do with asking for anything for themselves; other than some daily bread, forgiveness in line with their attitude toward other sinners and to help them stay away from temptation.
I guess the Christians decided that wasn't good enough. Maybe they think if they shout very loudly it will remind their gods they they are extra special?God says who qualifies as extra special. I have heard the "loud" prayers. I spent all of my formative years (as well as not so formative) in church. It gets ridiculous! Mostly for show, and God deals with that as well. Jesus gave us the ultimate all-encompassing prayer. However, his prayer on the cross was totally different. We are admonished to ask God for guidance on ALL issues. It takes a constant prayer life. Pray without ceasing is one of the directives.
You know me. I think everyone is extra special.
But, it all comes down to wearing religion on your coat sleeve. The more vocal anyone is, it comes off more as 'look at me, look at me' than a relationship with anything.I can see what you mean. However, Jesus told his followers to tell everyone. We have instructions on how. We are to wear Christ on our sleeve. Our lights should shine brightly. Look at me, is another story. Some just really overdo it with religiosity to the max. We are humans first; then spiritual. None of us walk on clouds or live in bubbles. God sees the heart. Oh, and you think everyone is special essep me
now go on and get your red marker, I made a mi-stake What may be thought on a higher plane has nothing to do with our petty disagreements. We all make mistakes, we are all perceived by others as making mistakes (whether we have or not).
I assume, if our consciousness lives on after death, we'll all have a hearty laugh at what we considered to be so important that it was worth wasting time disagreeing onThat would make sense that Jesus is far too busy organizing His followers to spread the Gospel rather than taking the time to feed starving children. Go Jesus!
He already provided the food. We took it away, store it away, gorge ourselves on it. Then point at God when people are starving because they cannot access our hoarded resources. It is His fault, it is His fault. It isn't anything that I did. Sounds like a child complaining. But like I teach the children in my class, instead of pointing fingers and casting blame, we need to take steps to fix the problem. The starving children children bother you? Good, it should it means you have a heart. Now do something about it instead of blaming it on God. Maybe you will meet God while you are reaching out to these communities.
God has then failed in his attempt to feed us all. He should have known that Christians would hoard food away and gorge themselves leaving children to starve to death and created of system of food distribution.
Yes, children are complaining, but they wind up dying soon for lack of food.
One of the problems we should fix is to not have Christians tell us prayer works when it obviously doesn't because it only makes those Christians look incredibly selfish.
Okay, let's all pray to God to fix the problem, isn't that what prayers are supposed to achieve? Why would anyone in the world ever pray for anything other than feeding starving children. If they did pray for something other than that, they are being totally selfish.We are supposed to pray, we are also supposed to act. The Bible does not say sit back in comfort and pray. It says pray and do something. Teach people, help people, feed people. There are plenty of Christians who do not do anything to help, there are plenty of atheists who are the same.
Likewise there are plenty of every group that does help, that are not afraid to help. Jesus taught that we must love other people, and that we should not have more than our fair share if there are those that need what we have in excess. So we need to pray, and we need to act. But it isn't about asking God to fix all our problems for us, as I said he isn't a genie. We can ask what He wants us to do, and then we can do it.Why waste time praying then? Use that time to do something instead.
We can do things on our own entirely, which would make more sense considering whatever God has told you to do has failed miserably.How do you know that? You do not know what my experiences with God have been. I will tell you that I was raised atheist, I was a very stubborn atheist. And I did my homework. I knew how to crush Christian babbling when I was approached. Problem is, I stopped trying to find holes in their worldview and started to examine my own. Started brushing up on my history, started looking deeper into the science. Ooops. My worldview came crashing down around me. Along with my life it seemed. Instead of wasting time complaining that people are wasting their time praying, try using that time to examine your beliefs, your presuppositions about complete strangers. And your own assumptions about a God you blame but seem to not believe in. Come on, give it a try.
The priority was clearly the life after this one. The eternal one. Not the one that lasts a handful of decades and where everything eventually dies and ends up on the other side anyway. There's supposed to be struggle and pain and pleasure and joy in this life. What point would there be to create this entire planet, all life on it, then create us with the capability to behave however we choose, if he's just going to come and solve all of the problems that we learn from. If God/Jesus came here and 'nerfed' the world, what would be the whole point of life? Just to eat, sleep, age, die?
@ A Troubled Man - How many of those starving children have you fed? This is really not about the starving children, is it?
A lot more than Jesus. How many has He fed?
You do not see why you wear troubled as your name. Go Jesus? Man is starving those children, and they will pay eventually. God is being God. It is not mandatory that you believe. God's plan goes forth.
Please do not focus on me personally or insult me personally through my userid or I will report you.
God's plan obviously involves starving children to death for some reason, God is being God and refusing to feed them. If men were at fault, why doesn't God fix the problem instead of letting those children die? What kind of plan is that?A really really really callous plan.
It's the Epicurean question:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
There has not been a satisfactory reply yet in more than two millennium.God is more than willing and more than capable of doing anything. But he usually allows us to do our own work. Love your brother as you love yourself. That is an immense request. I love myself. I feed me, clothe me, bathe me, excuse my faults, defend myself. It is our job. We will answer for what we don't do also. This is only a test. Gonna be too late when the "teacher" calls, "Put your pencils down". It is what it is. We cannot change it. God rules.
http://www.bethinking.org/suffering/adv … f-evil.htm
Really interesting response to the riddle. One of my favs.
I am not trying to insult you by using your userid. Please do not report me A Troubled Man. Is there anything not so offensive that I may call you? Nevermind, no need. However, when children die, they go to God. Not such a bad thing. The Lord does not promise us life, unless we follow him. He does promise death. We all must do it. It is sad that with so many riches here that it happens, but again, God is not at fault. We are. We can feed them. We sit back and watch them die. God asked us to feed the hungry and shelter those outdoors. But do we listen???
I'm sure you believe that, which evidently allows you to dissociate yourself from the cause of their untimely deaths. Gosh, that was easy. No responsibility, no reason to do anything, let alone even giving it any thought. How convenient.
Some do listen and act, while others pray to justify their own selfish needs.The point is to pray and act. Not one or the other, if you are sitting back in comfort doing nothing to help and simply praying then guess what, you are not doing what Jesus commanded. Where that puts you is for you to decide. Not everybody who prays is action less. In fact maybe you should look into the Christian groups around the world that make a huge difference. Actually I was looking up where you can get a meal if you were in need in my city. All of the locations were churches, or church run.
My church and their sister church alone feed three hundred people a week. They pray. And they act. That is the point.Well, I am glad to have spoken to you again, Sir. You cannot hear me. And I really can't hear you. You say dissociate myself??? I thought you were doing that by placing the blame on this imaginary God you keep talking about. Sorry.
I can hear you just fine, thanks. But, if you can't hear me, is that because you choose not to listen?
You can hear me, but you block what I say. I, in turn, am at the same disadvantage. My God is all-knowing. He knows every one of the children you speak of by name. More than that, he knows the number of hairs on each head. You cannot come to that realization because you do not have the faith offered. Jesus died, Moses died, Abraham died. David's child died. Many children in Egypt died as slaves. These were all God's people. The deaths of those babies is a wake-up call to you. Since they are prominent in your heart, you may be charged with making a difference for them. It may be you who could single-handedly feed 5000 of those children with your lunch. My charge is different. We all have a job.
You see, I can hear you.
However, you still manage to justify the deaths of starving children with alleged deaths from the Bible as if it is no concern of yours whatsoever. It would appear that the more religious a person is, the less compassion they have, especially towards humanity.
No, the deaths of those babies is not a wake up call for me, it is a shining beacon of reality in the face of religious dogma and the praise and worship of a selfish egomaniac you call God.Do you believe in God? If you do not then you cannot blame Him, and like Christians and majority of Humanists concede that child starvation is a result of human selfishness and inaction. If you do believe in God then you can blame Him but that would mean that you believe there is an evil all powerful being out there and that would not lead to a very happy existence.
Another option is to think about what you are accusing God of. You are accusing Him of not stopping the evil in the world, and of allowing evil in the world. The problem is that assumes that our world could exist without evil. It can't. Not now. We have free choice, in order to create a world without evil God would have to give us the free choice to only ever make the right choice. That is not choice, that is puppetry. The other option is for God to step in and stop evil, However that would be out of character as God is a perfect God, He is perfectly just and perfectly good. If He was to step in to stop some evil, He must stop all evil- in order to maintain the perfect justice. Then we must look at what is evil in Gods perspective, lying, cheating, violence (as Jesus said even thinking evil things) Do we want God stopping our evil thoughts? Once again that puts us in danger of puppetry.
So we could be puppets living without cause.
Or we can have choice.
As long as we have choice people will choose to do evil.
We cannot blame God for our choice to do evil, anymore than we can blame a mother for her son deciding to be selfish. It is the choice of the individual to do wrong, and the caregiver to guide the wrongdoers into making the right choice for their benefit as well as others. That is where Jesus came in, and showed Humanity how to make the right choices.
In blaming followers of God for the ills of this world you are correct, we are human, we are to blame. However so is every non believer. Every single person with the ability to choose is responsible for their share of the ills in this world. It is up to every single person to do something about it.Please provide your sources for that claim.
Sorry, but I have yet to accept religious fantasies of gods and demons to explain life on earth.
I accuse your religion of causing much the of evil in the world, not your imaginary god.
Yes, our world could easily exist without evil by ridding it of religions, for a start.
Believers ARE already puppets, they follow religious dogma blindly. Their choice to do so was made when they were children and indoctrinated into their parents religion.
That makes absolutely no sense at all. Gibberish.
That is ridiculous, if your god creates a choice to do evil and men are going to choose evil, that is the fault of your god for creating such an absurd system. He is pure evil for doing such a thing because he created a system in which one MUST choose Him or else burn for an eternity.
Only the very worst despots and dictators create such systems of worship and praise.Your choice. Hey, I know a murderer who emphatically states that he does not want a God who would forgive him for that act. Then, forgive rapists and those who are worse. We are allowed to choose that if we want.
I think you just made that up considering the dishonesty of your other posts.
That would be utterly ridiculous to do so.You are entitled to your opinions. You will get your way. I choose God's. You mad about that? Are I not entitled to my own opinions?
You're free to believe in whatever you want, just like we are free to show that your beliefs are teaching you to be dishonest and that you'll say anything contradictory to defend them.
Why do you accuse people that you don't even know of something they don't even do? We all know is dishonest around here, and grumpy, too.
It's funny that now you resort to calling me a liar who is contradictory. I am blushing:) it is you who has been contradictory. I know that I am not the only one who recognizes it. I am in awe of your stubbornness. Please accept my apologies for trying to come between you, and your God.
He likes to call Christians liars. It makes them mad and they will go back and forth with him. See, he gets paid per post on forums by Chairman Mao.
God created a system where good and evil would be withheld for the "Gods". The people, of their own free will created what we have today. Don't worry though, things will return to their original state once and for all, very soon.
So now we come to the root of the problem. Religious people are to blame for the problems and evil of the world. I hear this argument so often it amazes me.
Yes religious people are to blame. Atheists are to blame. Americans are to blame. Bus drivers are to blame. Even Canadians are to blame eh.
EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO HAS THE ABILITY TO MAKE EVIL CHOICES IS TO BLAME.
Go back and read through your arguments, you went from blaming God, to saying God doesn't exist, to blaming religious people solely.
I would claim that the problem is that people point fingers instead of knowing how to take responsibility.
I make mistakes, I don't always make the right choice. Neither do you. None of us do. Every ounce of evil in this world is created by us, and it needs to be fixed. When people pray they are admitting to the evils and asking for help in fixing our messes. It is no more a waste of time than hubbing or arguing on forums.
It is really sad what is happening to children in other countries that are starving to death. Should we sit around and find somebody to blame? Or should we suck it up, admit that we are ALL to blame. And do something about it?
Finally do you know what religion I follow? Have you asked? I follow Christ. Christ had two commands. Love God. Love People. Those are the two rules of the religion I follow, anybody who is not following those rules are not following the same religion. Can a religion that preaches love, and the only true followers demonstrate love be the sole cause of evil?
I will admit there are many branches of Christianity that have taken a very sour route. But the very meaning of the word "Christian" is "Christ like". Before calling these groups Christian consider if the word actually applies.
People who promote racism, violence, or any form of negative discrimination are failing to show love, failing to be Christ like and ultimately do not fit into the very definition of the word Christian.
Religious fundamentalist sure. They sadden me as much as they seem to frustrate you.Perhaps, it is you who needs to go back and read through the argument to see that at no time did I ever blame religious people, solely or otherwise. It is this kind of dishonestly that believers stoop in order to defend their religions that makes it impossible to have discussions.
If you must continue to put words in my mouth to support your argument, then we're done here and your credibility is toast.
Am I to understand that you equate making mistakes or making wrong choices with being evil?
It is a waste of time if nothing happens as a result. Why don't believers just fix their own problems rather than sitting around wishing them to go away? That's rather childish.
We would very much like to accomplish that, however religions are causing people to sit around and pray for the problem to be fixed, instead. They then complain about all the evil in the world and pray for that to be fixed, too.
Not the sole cause, but most certainly one of the main causes of evil. To be commanded to love God, we have witnessed centuries of atrocities committed by Christians who love their God.
People don't want to be loved, they want to be respected, huge difference. Love is an emotion that shouldn't just be tossed around to everyone, but instead held for those whom one really cares about. Respect people, don't love them or else the entire concept of love diminishes to nothing.
And yet, the Bible is rife with racism, violence and discrimination, amongst other negative characteristics being taught to it's followers.Hi ATM. I wouldn't argue most of your statement, but I would suggest that love is the highest form of respect.
How so? To love an individual is to compassionately recognize them for who they are. To understand their weaknesses and strengths and to help them by first accepting them as individuals. Love doesn't enable weaknesses. It gives us the strength to face them and overcome them. It's like a braided rope.
Respect, in and of itself, means nothing. Not to the respected individual. They can easily hide behind a self made facade. Love is respect offered behind the facade. That is the highest form of respect.How can you recognize the compassion of an individual or understand their weaknesses and strengths when you don't even know them?
So, you don't respect people because it means nothing to you? How sad, Emile.
People can hide behind their feigned love, too, or didn't you know that?There is a lot about love that you don't know.
There is a lot about humor that you do not know.
Everybody lies ATM. The most important question is, how much do we lie to ourselves.
I didn't say it was possible to love everyone, but that is the goal. Not ooey gooey words that make our eyes roll, but accepting others for who they are. Not judging, but giving the benefit of the doubt. And a helping hand instead of a sermon because we know that to care about what motivates is to care about the heart of the individual. 99% of all that separates and keeps us from cooperating lies in the refusal to truly see the other person. To believe that their perception is as worthy as our own.
And, I do respect quite a few people. But, I understand that on many levels what I respect is the persona they have chosen to show to the world. It isn't necessarily who they perceive themselves to be. I accept the facade that is offered. But the true self is of much more value than any facade any of us can create. And the lack of honesty, the hiding from ourselves because we don't respect ourselves ...because we allow our society to lumber on with false expectations is, in my opinion, one of our greatest flaws.Please speak for yourself, thanks.
Please tell us how much you lie to yourself? We can see the rest here on these forums.
That's called respect, not love.I would venture to guess I am more honest with myself than the average person.
We see a lot of things on these forums ATM. I think much of it escapes you.
And, honestly? The content of your posts does not reflect evidence that you even remotely understand the meaning of the word respect, or how it is displayed.Then, that would contradict your claim.
If you say so. But, I have little respect, if any for those who are dishonest.
Emile, I think this is the best definition of 'love' that I have EVER seen! I especially like the braided rope metaphor.
Beautiful.That's very kind of you to say. But, it appears ATM considers it to be wildly off base. I've apparently failed to adequately present the point.
Well, it may not be something everyone will agree with. I not only agree, but feel that you stated it quite eloquently.
I'm probably naive, idealistic, and a bit romantic but I wish that disagreements didn't always have to be so...disagreeable.Yes, when differences of opinion are disagreeable it does get tedious. I don't really understand why some have such a burning need to be right, across the board. It really is little more than a difference of opinion. I prefer to hear an opposing view. There is little of interest in an online discussion when everyone agrees.
And even less of interest when a discussion turns into nothing but an argument for argument's sake. I wish we spent more time though focusing on how to put into action those things we do agree on rather than spending that time in an attempt to force each other to agree on ALL points.
In the end, I think we are all willing to concede certain points. Hell, even Mark Knowles and I have come to be friendly and spend more time trying to find common ground than not. It really is possible when we stop trying to just be right and put away the verbal assault weapons.
No, you presented the point fine. It is up to the hearer to accept or reject. You have done your part.
Please let me say that i too heard something to the effect of, Christianity or religion is the root of the problem, from you as well. You have blamed everyone for hunger, but you. Also, people do all sorts of silly things for their God. See what you do for yours? I don't hate you for not agreeing with me, nor do I cosider you childish. Wrong choices equate to evil very often. Christ told us that faith w/o works is dead. We must watch, pray, and act. It is a sign of God within. God is good. He does not err. We do. Sitting around complaining about things not being perfect because of God, surprisingly, is... You seem to be so good with labels, can you help me out on this one?
Once again, your dishonesty is showing in spades, I said no such thing. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
Most certainly, we can see right here on this thread people who will lie for their gods becuase that's what religion has taught them.
That's ridiculous. People can make wrong choices with the very best intentions.
Yes, it is as ridiculous, needless and pointless in exactly the same way as it is to praise God for anything. See how that works?
If you praise God for something, then it is only fair that we can also blame God for something.Now THAT was utterly ridiculous
. Blame God for whatever you want. You will bow too.Ah yes, the threats of an ego-maniacal god, right on schedule.
So, you believe I'll bow to your God because I blame him for something? LOL!You will bow because one day, you will get to see with your own eyes, no faith (a necessary ingredient today) needed. Do you feel threatened by what I say? I have faith that there is reason for that, do you?
Your religious fantasies have absolutely no bearing on reality or me. Your petty threats of your god are as laughable as they are immature.
Are we really going back and forth to pad your pocket?
I say, are you into the occult? You are channeling EarnestHub.
That is a completely tasteless, crass, and offensive remark; to anyone with any sense of decency. If it's some sort of inside joke, then you should have kept it that way. If not, it's just wrong.
The English language lacks the words to express how disgusting this comment is... I don't know how you were raised but decent people are taught to respect the dead not make jokes about them.
See I told you. First he gets so crabby that he calls God names right to his face. Then he thinks it's funny. Like I said - he doesn't know much about humor.
I'll bet a dollar he will go on like that all day long.We must work while it is day. I will stay
God works this out. I am planting seeds. He needs some extras. Ok, scratch the last comment.This is the last time I will remind you of the rules here and will begin reporting you if you continue focusing on me. Do you understand?
If I put words in your mouth then I apologize. Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying. Please explain to me why you think it is such a problem for people to pray to God. Also please explain to me how it can possibly be rationally linked to starving children. Please inform me why it is okay for you to tell believers that they are wasting time and causing evil by praying, and how this does not apply to you wasting time insulting believers and creating emotional arguments to respond to logical arguments.
Once these little bumps are smooth then I believe we can continue in having a civil, mature conversation.
Ok, so you won't be helping the starving children. Too bad, they will continue to needlessly die because we are too busy blaming God that we can't offer them a loaded spoon. Your choice. But do you believe that it is God's fault that your heart is so hard that you would prefer to place blame on him than take responsibility for them???
Notice that the believer will now make claims by putting words in other peoples mouths in order to defend their religion, shifting the burden of responsibility to others when they have nothing else to say.
Notice how the believer makes the claim that others hearts are hard because we are showing compassion to starving children while they justify their gods.
Even Jesus himself would see the dishonesty of these believers.You are shifting responsibility. I am shifting it back. It is your fault that children are dying of hunger. They stay constantly on your heart, yet you rather "sit-back" and blame God that they are hungry. He is done raining bread from heaven every morning, I think. He expects you to follow his prompting and go feed somebody. They will see God in you.
So, it's my fault, now? You will continue to praise your god for all the positive things in your life but you will blame me for the negative things? Incredibly childish.
Hilarious, now you're implying that people are starving just so that we can go and feed them so that others will see God in them. LOL!What more do you wish? You blamed God, Christianity/religion, me, Flipper (ok, one from my mouth into your mouth for comedic purposes only) for hunger, yet, you feed, youself for sure, maybe a family, and who else?
Jesus still loves him. He should just open his heart and find the joy. If you argue with him, he will just dig in deeper down into his crabby hole. I hope the tide doesn't come in before he comes out!
P.S. The Flipper thing was wasted on him. He doesn't know much about humor.Sure, Jesus loves him! That is why he (TM) persists and labors with me. He should see the flaw in his reasoning. He needs to see that his faith is misplaced. He needs to see love in action. Soon, he will recognize God speaking to him. I will not mistreat him. I love him. He is safe with me. I will only strengthen his faith. Oh! The Love thing is what all if this is about. Love is not a lose term; nor is it taken lightly because everyone gets it. Love is an act. If he takes the word of Emile concerning love, he will be in good shape. If he takes my word on Christ, he will be in good shape. Here, repetition seems necessary. I will stay.
Troubled, I love your consistency and I hear your rage, but if I could offer one or two small points: many Christian organizations have been trying to end world hunger for literally hundreds of years, in fact, Christians have traditionally fed the needy since Christianity's inception.
More importantly and ironically historically people haven't cared about others suffering or really had any sense of empathy before Judeo/Christian belief became prevalent. It was survival of the fittest. So, to be honest your very attitude is profoundly Christian. If you are open minded you will see what good has been done as well as the bad.
Finally, to rail against God is not uncommon even for believers, sometimes you just can't see what He's doing or why, sometimes that's actually His spirit challenging you to see what you couldn't before. It may be you are being moved by that Spirit, or not. Do understand, many of us would be completely lost without our faith. It is our shield and our strength and constantly motivates us to try to be better people, But it's not really about a dogma it's about the great joy that comes from trying to do the right thing for it's own sake. The truth is there are some Atheists who are better Christians than some Christians, I can live with that.- <--- my rage
Do you have a citation or any sources for that claim? Why do we need Christianity to feed the hungry? Do we not have non-religious organizations that do the same thing?
That's entirely false.
No, it isn't, not by a long shot.
Yes, and the bad of Christianity outweighs any good it has ever accomplished by huge ratios.
I don't think so.
No, you wouldn't be lost at all, you'd be free of the shackles and slavery of religious dogma and free to think for yourself. You'd change from being a programmed automaton to becoming a human being.
Doing the right thing does not require religion to tell you to do the right thing.
Perhaps, the reason why atheists are better than Christians is that atheists have figured out on their own to do the right thing rather than being told to do the right thing, which would make their decision far more relevant and effective for them and those they help.
Most Christians only do good things for selfish reasons.Sorry, in just about everything you write you seem angry, but that's okay, I get the fact that you feel strongly about the subject. For my part, I'm glad for your input even though you are no more likely of converting me to your view than I am of converting you to mine. Still, we can reason together, I understand that you see me as a blind automaton and I see God as active in your life as He is in anyone else's just maybe more secretly.
Clarification: I said "some" Atheists and "some" Christians, I don't imply "all" by any means, but I agree with your point and deeply respect people who do the right thing for it's own sake.
I think you feel that the philosophy of Christianity requires it's followers to be mindless hypocrites which is something I don't see at all, but perhaps this view misleads you as to motive. I've known mindless hypocrites, some of which professed to be Christian, I consider you more Christian then they are. It's a thing anyone can claim but only God can really move you to be. If He's moved me or I'm just a blind automaton is difficult for me to prove, I can only keep faith, hope and the humility to examine my own motives.It is interesting how folks believe others are angry when they are actually laughing hysterically.
No worries, there are many believers who don't wish to have contact with reality.
One merely has to read the Bible to see the mindless hypocrisy contained within.
No need to personally insult me, thanks.
I'm sure many believe that fantasy.
That doesn't appear to be of any value without examining your motives with reason, rationale and logic, too.Honestly you have been openly hostile towards theists in this thread, and claim that they cause hostility. You have been jumping to conclusions and making assumptions about Christians and claiming they do the same. You have said that Christians contribute to the mess of a world where some starve and some have too much, you have been contributing as well. Christians spread hate, you hate on Christians, Christians do not want to see reality, I am not sure if you do either. Christians indoctrinate their children? I was an indoctrinated by my parents to be an atheist. Isn't that funny how that works? Christians are hypocrites? Pot meet Kettle.
We as humans are broken, we all have the same flaws. The difference is whether you sit around and point them out in others, or you sit down and look at your own. Christianity is a religion that says we are flawed, that we sin. That we will do evil things. The Christian scriptures tell countless stories of people sinning. Of people being hypocrites, murderers, thieves. A book about human history...it is bound to be full human mistakes. Whether you believe it is mindless or not fully depends on whether you read it with a critical mind or without one.
If you want to hate on Christians that is fine, but do not claim an air of superiority. Do not throw stones at glass houses my friend.
I am sure you are feeling pretty good about your responses right now. But you may want to consider how they would come across to you after you perhaps understand the Bible, and understand the religion you are criticizing. It doesn't matter so much how it comes across to us, but you may have some regrets. I was an atheist up till a year ago and I used very similar arguments to you. When I realized that my arguments had no basis in logic, science or history I decided to do some research. I then realized that these same arguments have no basis in reality.
I challenge you to honestly sit down and read a couple Biblical documents, and use a study guide to make sure you understand the context. Then pick up a scientific America and read to your hearts content. Do a search of the authenticity of the Biblical books, checking your sources every step of the way. Then come back and try to make these posts. I guarantee you won't be able to bring yourself to do it. Let me tell you something I learned the long way. Ignorance is not bliss. It is hell.Very well said all the way around calynbana "pot meet kettle" I love it. Troubled Man listen to this one. We can argue and get no where or we can discuss and find something we didn't know. We just need a little humility in ourselves and a little courtesy and mutual respect.
How about some honesty? Could any of you manage to muster a smidgeon or two? Or, is it more acceptable to be courteously and respectfully dishonest?
Sadly, calynbana, you have no doubt wasted a very well structured response.
Too often the conversation whittles into onion juice of ego v ego. Something I had hoped be averted and for the predominant contributors, it has remained very civil. A sock puppet is best ignored rather than engaged. It feeds off its own angst and indoctrination.
James.Ah, the personal insults. They are perfectly acceptable also, yes?
It is quite hilarious what believers consider as courteous and respectful. Should I follow you as role model?Oh dear no. We are following YOU as a role model, remember?
And, I guess it must have been correct, as I directed my comment to no specific person, err sock puppet. Sigh. Still the good school boy walking the Planks of Theos, eh fella?
You get what you give, Marcus.
James.LOL! Why not report me if you believe I'm a sock puppet for Marcus if that's what you believe?
Oh wait, that's a belief.What for? You have over a dozen sock-puppet accounts. The Borg itself would be impressed. Over one year in this account alone, 6300 forum posts and not one hub screams sock-puppet. Even more, your semblance to his is uncanny. Your verbiage nearly precisely the same. And the fact you responded to something(s) quite specific of our conversations, establishes this further. That is in addition to the "normal" posturing phrases you use, quite often, seemingly unnoticed by others.
James.And, your evidence for that beyond your beliefs is...?
Does it really scream sock puppet? LOL!
I would suspect a reading comprehension issue there or just biased opinion on your part.
Please feel free to provide evidence for your accusations or an apology for fabricating lies.I neither accept nor deny your request. So, what shall be done then, hmm? lol
You do the obvious, which is to focus on the subject matter and stop focusing on me personally. That's what these forums are about, fyi.
Nothing personal Troubled Man, but Jacharless is right. You certainly have a lot of posts on this subject matter and nothing else I could find in a perusal of you profile. If you feel so strongly perhaps you should do some hubs about your own beliefs and how you developed them
Perhaps, you should stop focusing on me personally and mind your own business, if you feel so strongly.
First of all that response is incoherent
Secondly, it's a ridiculous position to take when all you've done is make personal comments from the beginning of this thread...Is that due to a reading comprehension issue on your part?
I've done no such thing, but if it makes you feel better to believe so, have at it.
Yes, I understand theists claim others are hostile towards them when they make outrageous and absolute claims that contradict reality.
Odd, I've been talking about Christianity and how it makes good people do bad things, like dishonestly making claims of being indoctrinated into being atheists or praising their God for all the good things in their lives while blaming mankind for all the bad. That does nothing but cause conflict.
You have successfully mentioned several points that make Christianity very dangerous to mankind because it shows a completely false description of humans, one that does nothing but cause conflict in the world. In other words, you are what you believe you are.
Christians are people and I don't hate people. Christianity, on the other hand, is a very dangerous ideology that has caused massive amounts of death and violence in the world for centuries.
I understand them only to well, much better than most Christians who have never even read the Bible.
I don't buy your story and your posts here would not support that claim. Sorry.
LOL! I could care less about the "authenticity" of the Bible. What is contained within are the words of ignorant and delusional men who ran and hid from lightning and thunder, believing them to be angry gods.I have no reason to lie to tm I was an atheist, now I am not. I decided to do my research. It changed a lot of things. Believe what you like it doesn't phase me in the least. In order for you to form an opinion about something you need to understand the topic. To form an opinion about the Bible you should know about the Bible, you saying that you do not care about the authenticity of the book does not speak well of how much you may or may not have educated yourself about religion.
I agree that people misrepresenting Christianity has created many problems. They are not practicing what they preach, and that is wrong. Christianity itself is not the issue, its people misusing it, misunderstanding it and trying to use it as a form of authority and power over others.
You could blame the religion, or you could do your research and find the true source of the problem.The authenticity of the Bible has nothing to do with having read the Bible.
They claim to have been following Christianity and would criticize you for questioning their motives.
Christianity IS the problem.
I don't think it is necessary to shout prayers, it never says to do so in the Bible. Jesus does say to pray by yourself, but He also says to pray in a community setting with other believers. He said to pray always, pray continually. It makes sense, prayer is simply talking to God. It isn't about asking Him for things. It is about building your relationship with Him, you can ask for things, doesn't mean you will get them. You can yell at Him in anger, He wants you to bring your emotions to Him. You can pray silently by yourself. It doesn't matter how you talk to Him. What matters is that you talk to HIM. Directly.
Can you state the verse where Jesus said these things about praying together and continuously? I'm not aware of that one.
Could you please tell me where Jesus said to pray in a community setting? I missed that one
I believe he meant communal prayer as in James 5:14 - "Is any sick among you? let him call to him the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;"
"to go into an inner room,and pray to the Father in secret" is an expression that means, let your prayer be between you and your heavenly father. It doesn't mean you literally have to find a room to pray.
A believer should pray always, in the car while driving (as long as you keep your eye on the road), in the kitchen, while cooking. At school before an exam ( a silent heartfelt prayer, of course). At work. I know christian surgeons who whispers a prayer for God to guide their hands as they perform surgery.
The idea of going into a room to pray is only applicable and practical if there's a room in sight. Otherwise, the scriptures encourages every believer to pray without ceasing (always) anywhere, anytime.Absolutely true. I was just quoting the scripture to emphasize that Christ Himself did not ask us to shout our prayers.
I believe that you are only half-right. Jesus gave the admonishment to pray in secret after speaking about the "pride-filled, glory-seeking" prayers of those shouters. He does not want us putting on a show for men. God is infinite! He gets all glory and he then will raise you up. We must have a relationship with the father. Remember, Jesus left his crew to pray before he was crucified. He did not form a prayer link and go to wailin' and moanin' and cryin'.
When Jesus was at the tomb of Lazarus, He prayed, and publicly. He even wept. Some observing today may have said that was showmanship.
At the Garden of Gethsmane, He prayed, groaned, moaned, cried. As He was about to carry out the greatest transaction ever made. The Full payment of our sins with His precious redeeming blood, that is. His crew was there, not holding His hands, but for support (in their own way).
At the mount, during his sermon and before feeding the 5000, He also prayed publicly. Yet, some frown today at some christians who dare to pray on their meal at a public restaurant before they eat.
A few weeks ago, a couple of us believers held hands together in an hospital room to pray for the husband of another believer, right before he was wheeled into surgery. The prognosis wasn't good, but we agreed in prayer for God's divine intervention. The nurses were going back and forth while we prayed. It wasn't our intention to make it public. It was a spur of the moment prayer request. And it does happen sometimes.
Our God searches the hearts and the motives.
There are those who do it to seek their own glory, but we have to be very careful that we don't go around judging everyones motive.For sure, judgment is God's. Prayer is private. Jesus prayed alone in the garden while his crew disobeyed him and went to sleep, right??? At Lazarus' tomb, he stated why he publically prayed, as if this was NOT a normal thing. Also once he broke the bread he looked up and blessed them, says nothing about prayer. People who pray over their food are also "showing" that they are "holy" for the public. Have you ever noticed one who will interrupt your conversation to stop the presses to pray? God knows the heart's intent. He decides. But people who are "real" holy crack me up.
Yea, eyes are for driving and mouth for praying, cool.
What we know as God is simply how we perceive the universe around us. It's all interconnected. Prayer is just an emission of a frequency to which the the universe or "God" can and will answer.
What we know as God is simply how we perceive the universe around us. It's all interconnected. Prayer is just an emission of a frequency to which the the universe or "God" can and will answer.
God is a myth! He is as fake as unicorns and fairies and praying to him or any other god is a waste of time.
Why do some pray loudly in public places or even into microphones?
I have always felt that such "prayers" are actually praying to their human audience and really saying either "Acknowledge my Godliness and Greatness" or "Grease my palm".It is just their way, God already knows what they are praying.
- MundaneMondaysposted 12 years ago0
let me say this...a lot of guys you see on TV ? are fakes..they do this just for money, power and to be seen...i myself hold my beliefs at a distance from any and everyone. ALl that yelling and stuff id unecessary ..simply crying out to god is good ...but that other bull ? is strictly "showmanship"
- genaeaposted 12 years ago0
God is not offended by a little name calling. He will walk with you the extra mile or 100.
- genaeaposted 12 years ago0
What the...? I was just sitting here, and all of a sudden. Yelling. Occult? Earnest hub? Why is that so offensive? Should I be mad or something?
Ernest is a fellow hubber who passed away recently. He was adamantly anti-religion, but he was a good man and much beloved by many of us here. A good number of hubbers showed their true colors by saying a lot of nasty things about him when he passed on. Apparently, there are those who continue to do so. I thought very highly of Ernest, thought I disagreed with him vehemently on many things.
Ganging up on any hubber is wrong, whether one agrees with that person or not. To attempt to then insult him by disrespecting the memory of another who has passed on is despicable, imho.
No yelling. Simply stating an opinion.
The problem is we think as man thinks and then try to impose that morality on God. Jesus said "God is the God of the living not the dead" to God everyone is alive and He knows each of us. I don't think we have to worry about each others salvation but we need to help each other as best we can because it's just the right thing to do.
To the nonbelievers: your points are of course valid but you are thinking outside your selves. You are looking for proof in the world and fretting because God doesn't seem to be there, in essence you are worrying about everyone else. It's not selfish to let God be God and to let Him worry about His children. Each of us has to ponder the question of God within ourselves. The bible helps in this search but it is truly between you and Him. For instance- if an evangelist is corrupt but his preaching helps a listener than God has sent that message to the listener and the evangelist still suffers for his corruption by not seeing the value of his own words. If you look for God in your heart first, you will begin rightly and won't have to be worried about propaganda or being mislead.Is God in your heart if you don't allow him in?
Yes, I think life isn't possible without God, besides he is all powerful so I don't think you can really keep Him from doing anything he wishes. That not withstanding, I think that God is always with us and ready for us to turn to Him. I know at my most difficult times when faith was the hardest for me to find, He was always there supporting me when I couldn't support myself
God is wonderful, yes. But he promised us that he would not make us say yes to his will. We have a choice. Life IS impossible without God. Death is not. We may choose to "die".
True, but I think it's more like a child/parent relationship, We can't demand our children love us but that doesn't mean that we would ever not sustain them or love them. If we hate God it's not because He's given us a reason to. To live without God is death, a worse one then any physical death could be, but I don't think even in death we are really without him. We are just having a nightmare and He is still holding us and waiting for us to awake.
I cannot argue with that. I feel differently though. At one point, Jesus said, "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?" is it really so hard to believe that the father is NOT always with us? Jesus had done nothing wrong either. The bible says that we would be without God when we Ultimately decide that we don't want him.
But he wasn't really forsaken was he? He needed to make his final step to be resurrected. For a moment he felt that God had left him and I think maybe it was worse for him than all the things the Romans and Jews had done to him, and they had done pretty much all they could. God is infinite where would we go to be without him?
He was quoting scripture. Read Psalm 22 and get you'll goosebumps!
I like your insight on that matter. Jesus was never forsaken. He wanted the will of the father. But what happens when we don't want God's will?
If one way leads to danger and despair and the other leads to life and happiness, what way is wise. God's Will is always to bless us, not always the easiest way but always the best. If we resist God's Will we are actually acting against what's best for us, what can we expect to happen?
And yet, there are many very happy people, millions, living happy lives without any gods. Go figure!
The simple answer: God, If he existed and revealed himself through the scriptures has shown that he is a self absorbed megalomaniac who loves to hear how great and wonderful he is aloud. He loves for his worshipers to grovel and bow down in obeisance before him as they proclaim publicly that he is a whole bunch of things that the scriptures say. But his deeds as described in the scriptures are the acts not of a loving god or creator but of a tyrant.
My goodness me, there are communists as thick as fleas on this venue. The cold war is not over, MR. Reagan. Good luck in eternity, comrade.
Back from making jokes about dead hubbers already? What a shame.
Hubbers never die, they just blather away.
So, disbelief in God equates to communism? Or, did you simply fail to think before you posted that.
It's all one big jumbled mess in certain minds
anyone who doesn't believe in god is obviously a communist foreign agent who wants to destroy America I quote, "Only a fool says in his heart that there is no God."
Time will surely tell. It is running short. You will not forget this word. Seek God's mercy while it is still available.Man Christians have been telling us the end is nigh for millenniums, there is a bearded nut who hangs out on my street and reminds me regularly when he isn't just gibbering unintelligibly. The repent or thou shalt suffer scared me stiff as a kid but it doesn't wash anymore
Not always, and I thought it through thoroughly.
I am well acquainted with many atheists. They are not so keen to launch such bodacious, aggressive, offensive, demeaning attacks on the belief of others. It probably has to do with the fact that they are Americans who believe in freedom of religion and resect the beliefs of others. This is old school communist tripe. Only communists have enough of their reprobate souls invested in evil to believe that it is good or even honorable to blaspheme.
You aren't fooling anyone with your masquerade. Now, go find something of good use for your time. Feed some hungry children, or visit the retirement home. You are wasting your breath here. This is one big circle ______ .Not sure what masquerade I'm involved in and I'm not sure what word goes into the blank, but the internet gives people courage to go beyond what the bounds of what would be considered polite in a face to face exchange.
Accusing an opposing view of communism simply because you don't like the view is wasting your breath and making you appear foolish. You should take your own advice.I agree, theists who equate atheism with communism is just an outward expression of their ignorance about what atheism is and what it means to be an atheist. Theists are good at pointing fingers and judging others who oppose their views and beliefs but playing the blame game does nothing for the arguments under discussion.
Christianity and Islam are not blameless and their history is filled with blood and tyranny's formed under the guise of defending the faith (crusades and other religious wars). I know that I am not a communist nor do I support communist agendas I am an American who does not believe that there is sufficient empirical or objective evidence to support a belief in God or gods of any kind.chatpilot, good for you we have freedom of choice. But do you know how astronomical number of things we believe and we cannot see or prove?
If one lives and believe only in material world, cannot see or understand spiritual.uhhh not very many... varying wildly depending on the actual person of course.
Thanks Vladimir, but I gave God a try and was an evangelist for 4 years and found in the long run that it was not for me. I've been on the theistic side of things and therefore understand your perspective.
I'm curious of what made you 'give God a try', what happened during those 4 years that you did, and how you were able to transition afterward.
Hello? You were a not a real evangelist. Real evangelists are tried.
Ha ha ha! You don't realize what you just said. Of course they were convicted. If they weren't convicted of the Love of Christ, they wouldn't be evangelists.That's a good one for a grumpy guy.
What makes you so grumpy anyway? Why are you so unhappy? You should get a puppy or something to cheer you up. All of this arguing isn't helping your attitude at all. You can't be happy when you have a contentious spirit.
Another statement of ignorance coming from someone who knows nothing about me or my past history in the church. You sound like a typical witch hunting fundamentalist. Not even worth my time replying to so this is my first and last reply to you.
I respect that Chat. It's my hope for you that you might see what I do but I want you to know it's for me and many other Christians just a sincere wish of good will and I would never attempt to convert someone who is happy where they are. From my perspective it's between you and God, I have to believe He'll do the right thing for you just like I believe He's doing the right thing for me
Thanks darkland, but it will take a miracle to reconvert me to Christ. I just don't find any good reason to believe in God nor need him or it in my life. I am a happy and content atheist and have no problem with others choosing what they wish to believe. I only have a problem when they try to force those beliefs on me not just through proselytizing but through trying to influence laws that support their theistic views on morality for example.
with a description like that, you could very well be writing about my 16lb cat. :-)
- genaeaposted 12 years ago0
For the record, i know plenty parents that would NOT sustain disobediently defiant children. My own son better get his crap together.
Are those parents believers, too?
Funny how I keep hearing about believers children who are out of control, defiant, disobedient, etc. Perhaps, they are rebelling against their religious indoctrinations?Whatever the case, he will not live in my house, his way, this house is not big enough. If you look long enough you will realize that there are plenty of things wrong within your own system of things. There is much absurdity in your line of thinking for one, but you have the same opinion about me. Once we are done pointing out eachother's "flaws" those children remain hungry. Any new ideas on how to feed them??? Or are you still waiting on the "imaginary/powerless" So-called God to do it???
Ah, so he is rebelling against your attempts to indoctrinate him and you will see fit to kick him out because your faith is far more important than your own flesh and blood.
All you offer is more evidence to show just how dangerous religions can be and how they make good people do bad things.
This is not anymore proof that religion is any more problematic in the parent/child dynamic than unionism, language, culture, sexuality or sobriety are. How many parents have sought to subjugate their child to their will when future educational plans are the issue? Or employment choices? I am sure that union steel workers have, at least some time int he last 100 years, had many bitter arguments with sons who would rather sing or dance than wear a hard hat.
Intergenerational conflict is natural and sometimes religion is the medium not the message.Now why couldn't he come to that??? I think I know, but...
Perhaps there are a few parents who subjugate their children, but that doesn't necessarily mean those children are being indoctrinated. Arguments are not equivalent to indoctrination, quite the opposite actually.
Obviously not a dancer in a Union Iron Worker household.
Have you no sense of courtesy? Now you attempt ass-uming? Didn't listen to that advice either??? My son's issues are not of a spiritual nature, though prayer works.
Don't let anyone second guess a life they have no understanding of, or any desire to understand. Raising kids is hard and every situation unique. We all do the best we can.
I hope everything works out for you. Even the best kids can be trying.Thanks, Emile. I am almost positive that my own mother received that message when I was 16
I'm just heading into those years and I'm not sure I'm equal to the test, but we know they are just stretching their wings, like all of us did. I had an old teacher that said, "you can't teach a teenager anything all you can do is try to hold them together until they get over it"....40 years of experience talking there. No doubt he will be as fine a man as you could hope for, if you don't kill him first
My Mama said you are the smartest that you'll ever be for the rest of your life is when you are 18.
- Dead sounds good! we all went there, right? He will be fine, yes. Otherwise, check the news! Lol
I bet raising kids these days is a lot different than raising kids 70 years ago. Too much have changed. .. @jainismus - The question at the top - If God knows everything? why people shout pray? Maybe the answer is .. so the deaf can hear.. Seriously those are group praying and using microphones, but if you just want to pray by yourself you don't even have to make a sound.
Yes, I know, that's what I've been saying.
it is definitely true that God knows eveything, God is closer to you even than yourself, one aim of the praying is to thank for everything that we have in this mortal life and to have goodlife afterdeath. we like to chat with our beloved friends,right? we share our feelings,bad and good experiences with them and we feel relax after that, noone can feel this indefinable taste without doing it..praying loudly or silently is not important, but the sincerity is. God wants people to talk to him and to know that they have a creator, therefore; although God knows everything, people pray,the more you pray,the more you will be close to God..it is your benefit to pray,God doesnt need your praying..
- Jerry Hulseposted 12 years ago0
I think some try to convince themselves like the false prophets of Elijah who thought cutting themselves would get their god's attention. I not only have his attention but I always have his favor because of his unconditional love for me in accepting his son and his atonement to bring me back into his fellowship. Check out and purchase my books on Amazon which are at their list price titled; "The Way To God" and What Time Is It" ? They are guaranteed to get you thinking. Be Blessed!
Thanks genaea, I'm not going to bother with this guy any more but it's been great theading with you. If this one is dead may we meet up again sometime.
We shall meet again if God allows
The reading comprehension thing was funny and over-used. Christians can't read, obviously. Lol. I believe this one is dead. But soon, there'll be another. Later:)I don't doubt believers can read, it is their ability to synthesize what they read that is in question.
You question my ability to synthesize read materials? Bite your tongue. I was given the gift of reading comprehension from age 4. I know how to synthesize. You change, contradict, and attempt to control the conversation with a ton of accusation and finger-pointing. No responsibility. Now THAT i understood. It is ok though. You are getting some valuable information. Some sinks in.
Well I guess things are not so dead as I thought. I suddenly realized I never really answered the question. I think that praying in groups no matter how loudly is probably better than not praying at all and whether or not the preacher is sincere, if there is one supplicant truly moved, it's probably worth it.
God does know everything and he knows we need to pray. It helps us focus on Him and maybe hear Him a little more clearly. I pray all the time and it's really a very wonderful way of life, not that I see nonstop miracles but it heightens and deepens my individual relationship with Him.
I respect deeply those who are good, honest and decent people regardless of their faith or ideology but the quality of my life would be greatly diminished without prayer. You just have to follow whatever sings to you and inspires you to be a better, happier person. If that happens to be a TV evangalist then I would support you all the way. I believe it is all the Spirit of Truth that moves each of us in it's own way and I, for one, thank God for that.Prayer is not for supplicant moving, right??? Prayer is a way to talk to God, a form of expression of our person to him, yes? The call by Jesus to go in your closet in secret is an answer to those who "pray" just to get mans' wink, praise, glory. It displeases God to be so excited about the approval of man in spirituality. This prayer is not for the benefit of man, but supplication to God. Loud moaning prayers screamed into a michrophone have always been a huge source of laughter from me and my church peers. We could not help it. Some people REALLY put on a show.
I agree wholeheartedly if you have prayed for the praise of men then you haven't really prayed at all. These guys who put on a show have received their reward. If the people listening are entertained by this rather than made more holy, they too have been rewarded and have only mocked prayer. I was just saying that if it helped someone listening in the audience to really focus on God, who would otherwise be focused on mammon than they have been blessed and so it might be worth it to that person. In my mind talking about God is better than not talking about Him, but perhaps these showmen do more harm than good...I don't watch that sort of thing.
As a Christian, I try to accept everyone, love everyone and hopefully inspire someone to be a little bit more accepting and loving....that's my job. In the end, if God wants to shut up the wonton evangelist He'll do it, I can't really hope to say what is truly in that person's heart or mind. The Jews were very offended because of what Jesus said and automatically grouped him with other false prophets of his time, so they missed his message and continued in their pride, losing what was within their grasp. Judgement is a dangerous thing because hypocrisy often trails hidden in its wake. If we are too quick to condemn we lose our humility and become our own worst enemyThere is no condemnation to those who walk after the spirit. Those who are entertained by "fluffy/pride-seeking prayers" are entertained by the "show". That prayer really does not speak to God as you said. Therefore there is only entertainment to mock. How is there a way to become more holy through this? Those who hear the fluffy prayer. Learn, as babes in Christ, to pray with "much speaking and vain repetitions." Right? Jesus spoke against it specifically. It seems to me that Jesus spoke against a lot that happens in church services. It is so scary to me.
So, when will we see this gift in action?
Ah, not yet, I see.All of your words are in black and white, literally. There is proof of what I say about your conversation within this thread, if you have not deleted the passages. It is not a guess, assumption, or the fault of lack of understanding. The way you played with this post just proves the petty way in which you make your arguments. I see now why you laugh so often, you are funny, indeed.
Funny I share a similar viewpoint about a slightly different group.
- genaeaposted 12 years ago0
Hello Thread Participants,
I assure you that our God is not moved by disbelief. If you want, he is there. If you don't, he understands better than you do. Jesus came to save his family. Disbelief disqualifies. If this upsets you, you may belong to him. I'm just saying...Dear Thread Participants,
I firmly assure you:
If your g/God is not moved by unbelief He is equally not moved by belief.
If moved by either, He is no better than a human.
If moved by either He becomes subject to the human perspective.
If moved by either becomes partial, divided in Himself.
Do you really know your g/God as well as you proclaim. Me thinks you do not.
And injecting what Moshiach came to do, to fulfill your empty position, is irrelevant.
What was done, was done, and you have no right to claim His work/testimony as your own, nor use it as a catalyst to further promote vain advantages {meaning superiority by vanity}.
James.Hi James
For sure, God is moved by belief. His forces in our lives work according to faith. You cannot receive from the father without acknowledgment, right? I know my father, Sir.
I, however, am not familiar with yours.-liar. He is not moved by human faith. Humans are moved by faith which consumes them into Him, not the other way around. -liar, again. One need not acknowledge any thing. One need only to walk with the Spirit, which is faith, which is truth.-liar, a third time. Now crows the rooster.-do you know what my Abba detests above all things, love? A lying/split tongue...
Pay attention, Eve. Soften your heart, stop milking and you just might experience everything you have memorized -and then some...
James.Wow! Such harsh words, coming from one who claims to walk with "the" Abba??? Not my Abba, Love. You cannot walk alongside one of whom you have not acknowledged. Then you walk with strangers. Eureka!!!
God is moved by faith. It is all over the work that you have put down in an attempt to do what "feels" right. But some of those ways lead to death. Not necessarily of the body. But of spirit. You follow your father. I, Sir, will follow mine. Memorization is just the beginning, you must keep walking straight, turning neither to the right nor left.Not some ways, love, ALL ways save one lead to death. That only way is called Spirit. Moshiach said so! Remember? Now, one of those death ways is you bending God to your ways -memorization, appealing to your faith; acknowledging your faith and praising/rewarding you for that faith. It does not work that way. That is creating God in your image. That is exactly what happened to Eve. Now you understand why I said, "my Abba", and why He detests a lying tongue. A tongue that divides Truth and forms only lies because of its division. Do you want to join the dead --the many, many before you? I wonder....
James.Yes! I understand now, your Abba and my Abba are not the same. All ways lead to death save one. Belief. What follows is obedience. Eve disobeyed an order that she must have forgotten. No, the tempter convinced her that the command she received was a set up to trick her. She believed a different report, remember? She must have been curious. The tempter knew she would be. God did not stop her as he could have. He allowed her to decide her path. It was not God's word that she ate. She ate satan's. She heard the word of God and put it on the shelf. See what happened next???
Interesting how closely Christians link evil and curiosity. No wonder so many of them are anti-science.
More like linking evil and disobedience.
As for the science aspect, nearly all modern science sets on a foundations established by those who were followers of an Abrahamic faith.
IF there's an accusation that MIGHT have meat, its the one that suggests that Christians are anti-academia. To a certain degree, that is correct. The opposition however is based more on academic institutions becoming mouthpieces of certain ideological strains of political and social thought.
Shakes head. More split tongue doctrinal misinformation.
Belief is nothing more than a thought, a consideration, in owns perspective/thinking. It is powerless. Once a thought is acted upon, it no longer remains belief, it becomes manifestation -proof of exactly what the thought entailed. It goes from substance to evidence. The image reflected as it is seen/believed/considered.
And here you add conditions to belief: obedience. Obedience is doing what one is told in fear of retribution, punishment else reward for ones effort. That is called works. Obedience is reserved and came from slave mentality. Ask the Hebrews about that. They were obedient to a fault. lol. They tried to bend God to their way, by following the Oral & Written Rules and on numerous occasions "called Him out" on it. But no matter how much belief they had, their stiff-neck way of rules, "obey or else" brought nothing but death.
Eve was never given a military "order" to "obey".
Adam was given a "warning" and the effect if he did not heed the warning.
What tempter? What Report? What Set up? Sounds like church-babble.
Stop milking Eve.
James.It looks to me like you are searching for truth and I shall pray for you.
Hello Mr Hulse,
I am not certain what let you to make that assumption. I do not need to search for Truth, I simply accept Truth, which surrounds us all. If there is a need to do anything, then by far, it is to stop searching, stop believing, stop memorizing texts, stop deflecting responsibility to Creator or to a nonexistent entity titled Satan, stop dividing the truth genetically built into each and every one of us. Truth that is the very air we breath, blood in our veins, thoughts in our brains -even the hairs on our head. If we need to believe, we have missed the entire point of this thing called salvation, of immortality restored and will continue to make g/God(s) in our image because we lack Understanding {the Trees united} and are unable to plant the seed of practical faith correctly.
Belief cannot, will not, is not able, will never -ever manifest immortality in any human. Period. Never has, never will. Practical faith, on the other hand, is an entirely different thing.
Now, even though you did not asked permission to pray on my behalf -which would have been the respectful thing to do- I sincerely appreciate the gesture. If you do follow through on that praying, then please request: even more boldness of spirit, as I have been tired lately and lacking in this area. Thank you
James.Good eye
there are so many things to grab onto out there. This is jibberish at its finest. I can hardly ever follow it. I may be protected from the rays without knowing it. I pray too.
So why don't you tell me what happened in the garden that day, I know you were there. There was no order, dont eat or surely die??? No temptation to eat, no eating/disobeying??? Please give me the "correct" version of that story, Sir. Nevermind, I am not prepared for berry picking. Nevertheless, you challenge what? You don't want to listen to the bible anymore because you have found a "truth" that outweighs the biblical info that I have. Ok. I cannot interfere with that. Must you continue ranting about my "Eve-ness"? I am trying to leave it all behind.
I need the words of God. I know that he gave us those words in the bible as a guide or steer. Sheep w/o steer are unruly. God knows this. One mind. Not many different. Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue if we all just made up our own rules and called it God at work???If 2047 years is not enough to prove chaos based on doctrine, then you have really missed it. Nearly 10 billion bibles have been printed, reprinted, translated and retranslated. Nearly 90% of the entire planet, every language, culture -from Tibet to Antarctica- has a version of it.
Look, at the world now, with this book in the hands of billions of people; at the history since the 14th century first-printing; at the wars -the violence, massive genocide's caused by this book alone; at the spiritual complacency this book has caused; at the effect of this book on people who have read it before you -they are all dead. The KOH is nearly nonexistent.
None of it is Creators Will. And wherever it is steering the sheep, is not a good place at all. He did not give you those words in a compilation of books & letters to guide you. He gave you Himself to guide you. But apparently you and millions like you believe that isn't enough so off to the text you go to validate what? To match-up what words? Words you assume/believe -need to believe are Truth.
As for rules, look at the many rules people assume are textually valid, adding burden after burden, militant command after command and strict obedience to the letter. The book has become god worshiped by the masses while the One who made them is ignored completely.
James.James, I hear and feel your frustration. You are dealing with individuals who themselves have problems coming to terms with down-to-earth living. "They," meaning persons like genaea and anyone who is stuck in their christian mode, would have us all remaining in our childhood frame of mind. We must be subservient; bow down; stand to attention; listen to the message; stop thinking for ourselves; just swallow rubbish like a fish taking a worm off the hook. (Although the worm is a very useful food for the fish, the biblical rubbish we are asked to accept is anything but good food.)
Look through the Hubs and Threads dealing with christianism, the arguments about atheism, etc., and you will find weeks and weeks of rhetoric. They get no where useful. They will not even have "won" a single soul for Christ through their bantering. I don't know what this means psychologically for them, but it's a weird human phenomenon.
I am with you, very much, in looking with clear, unfettered eyes at the integral unity of our world. And my own minute, yet unique place in it. From this I can gain a sense of awe, at the same time as feeling humble and privileged that I can be aware of it.
The childishness inherent in the evangelical mind needs to be tolerated but not latched on to. It will only pull you down into "their" mindset and keep you frustrated.lol. Another Hub Friend Cecilia Beltran calls that, "me climbing down the monkey bar". And yes, you are correct, tolerance is necessary regardless of the mindset.
Mea Culpa aka My bad
James.Could not help but notice that you call the "evangelical" mindset a step "down" from where you are? Tolerated? You are more than mistaken. But right, nevertheless. My words agree with what Jesus said. Yes, me and my father ARE a step down from you and your hubfriends.
highminded??? Not really headed in our direction. You seem to have found your way. You get your directions from within. I receive mine daily from above. Because I know that I am nothing, and all my "good" is as of filthy rags, i must know the rules of listening to the correct version of "God" within me. I must know when I hear his voice. I must be able to distinguish God from self. You seem to have the two on the same level. If you are so, that your God has allowed you to be equal in everything, tread carefully. There is a bump in the road.With your head in the clouds you will not feel the Bump in the Road.
I never said anything of the kind.And what is wrong with tolerance? Would you prefer we do a Crusade again and follow in Christianities footsteps of religious genocide instead -like Christianity is presently doing to Islam, Hindu and even Judaism?Sorry, are you speaking in tongues here, because this makes no sense. After two years here, have conversed with hundreds of people -theist, fundie, atheist, agnostic, secular determinist, creationist, physicist, non-scholars, teachers and more. None have ever made this claim about me, save one who officially declared herself a priestess for the Most High. Thus far, your words do not line-up with Moshiach even a little. you are using his words, yes, but they are his not yours. Quoting them or reciting them does not make them yours -nor does stealing his testimony make it yours either. Sorry to be so blunt.Really? and you know this how? We've already determined this about your "daily revelation": The book you use is put above Creator, worshiped and clung to, because people do not trust their heart, so look elsewhere {"see here, look there, study the scripts to find salvation, etc etc"}Yes, Pauline doctrine at its finest. I often wonder what image most see in the mirror. I guess your image of yourself -the image and likeness of Creator that you are- is as you say. Who am I to argue? As James Allen explained, what a person meditates on -day and night- in their heart they become; what a person sees is what they believe; what they speak is what they receive.First, Rules are for the slave, the outsider, the dead. Second, what "version" of God would that be? Third, you already read that the sheep hear His voice. So, saying you must be certain, by using the external text, completely, utterly and absolutely states you do not know His voice -that is His Spirit, Himself, in heart or mind. There really is no more to say about that, now is there?You misunderstand, again. Not sure how to explain it to you. The only thing which comes to mind: Creator is Creator, I am His creation, yet we walk together -Abba and son.
James.Ok, the comment about being a step down, has to do with your jovial mention of some kind of stepping down on a bar or something. I don't remember. I am nothing because i know that to be the truth. Because of the words of Jesus and his gift to me, i am accepted as family because I believe what he said. When Jesus came, he left commandments. I was instructed to follow them. You seem to have a newer version that comes from the "g/God" in you.
I know what Jesus said because of the bible. His testimony is not taken as my own, but rather held up as the ultimate testimony. I must inject that I think you try to take his "testimony" as YOURS, as in you say that you embody God. Jesus said that. Through his closeness and obedience to my father, I am saved. God did not enter into everyone's body because of what Jesus did. He made himself AVAILABLE to all because of Jesus' obedience. He left the holy spirit to keep us; those who believe. It is all in the bible. Now you get your info from another source because you were disappointed by what you were taught and then what you experienced. But God still lives. His word is definitely found in the bible. He must be believed, sought, and believed again, daily. Many have proven that God can be ignored, shelved, turned away from and put down. Eve, Solomon, Lot's wife, Jonah, Judas, and another J I know and love. I am not your enemy. We homies your FIRST love is the only sure love.Saved! ?? What precisely are you saved from? What will be your lot instead of what you are "saved" from?
You stick to your guns, I admit, but you do not impress me with that. It sounds like you are afraid to step out of the "groove" of the vinyl that is in your mind.
Everything that James, or I, or anyone else puts to you gets your answer couched in "belief" and the esoteric. Thus you put an end to sensible and logical discussion.
James has said that you have been doing this for 2 years. Do you have life away from the keyboard? Have you caused anyone else to "believe" and "be saved" by your presence here in these hubs.
Oh, I know what you will say now......"It's not me that saves, it's the holy spirit." Once again you will close the subject.
I only come to read your discourse for a bit of entertainment, really. There is no other sensible reason to engage you.
I don't dislike you, or ridicule you as a person..... just sad that your intelligence does not shine through and expand your life.
I know... god does that for you, doesn't he?I am saved from a life without the joys of God. You, vice versa. Thank you so much for gracing me with your presence thus far. It has been a great pleasure talking to you. Fyi, I am not interested in your adoration. I do what I do because I have much that I need to share with you. I am pleasured that you choose to give me your time. I have a lot more, stick with me
you consider my conversation to be lacking in sense and logic??? My only response must be; So...? Should your opinion turn me? While you think on that...James is wrong again. And you listen to him. I have not been on hubpages for two years. That is documented, right? Let me check
Ah, so you misread my reply and its meaning to Jonny. Fair enough, no harm no foul. The cliche of "climbing up/down the monkey bar" is used often to describe engaging arguments and such when there is no point. or end result, just circular repetition.Then what is all this fuss? Why exist if you are nothing but a "filthy rag sinner"? Why persist on saying you know Creator or what Moshiach did, or even have salvation? I will tell you it is because this is what you perceive and what the doctrine -from the book- has led you to believe. The harvest of that seed is very clear now and very evident. And, feel good to know you are not alone in this: millions living-dead and millions dead-dead share in this harvest with you. The disappointing thing is you are spreading that "filthy seed" to the minds of others. Is that fair to them? Should they too believe they are nothing but garbage, useless, worthless without instructions, rules from a book, while equally rejoice in the lack of? Most would respond yes, because the doctrines convince them that God will make them right. Which, as said before, is bending Creator to your ways, your needs, your lack of practical faith. When we know that Creator already accomplished and showed that restoration to complete perfection -body, brain & spirit- and access to everyone to achieve it. To reinforce it, restored His own self and power in each one.And this is what I am talking about. First part of your statement is a Cain mentality. Of fear of not doing well enough as to be accepted into a family of like minds. The second part contrasts this with militant authority. So, which is it: acceptance unconditional by unconditional or military obedience else face eternal pain? It cannot be both. Also, this is something I truly want to know from you, because you mentioned it several times: what commands precisely did Moshiach leave us all to obey.How did you come to that understanding?Which is irrelevant. Why? Simple. There is nothing written in these present compilations -and elements left out- that Creator Himself cannot teach or show any human without the need for "external, textual validity/cross reference"This is a another split tongue statement. Evoking/quoting and upholding his testimony is taking his testimony as your own. His words becoming your words because the ruach -which is THE Word- is not in your mouth and heart. Your words are memorized lines from a book. No life in them. It proves you have no testimony of your own. Second, the only one who can testify on his behalf is the Spirit, who is Creator. So, your claim is bogus. All who have the Spirit embody Creator. Because the Creator is Spirit-Truth. There is no other Spirit-Truth. Moshiach said that, as did the prophets, David, Solomon --even Saul.Really? Apparently you missed the entire good news regarding the resurrection from the dead and many others seen with him. {for a cross reference see revelation 20.5-6}.Again, you can keep telling me and everyone what Moshiach said/did but it does not change anything, will not "save" anyone. You can evoke the pagan name Iesous {translated son of Zeus} until you are blue in the face. He is not going to appear. But, again, it proves the stealing of his testimony for lack of testimony -evidence of those unseen things, the manifest KOH- in you and many others.What source? I was/am? Hmm, this is news to me.And why the cyclical need? And why the need to believe over and over? Can a person believe the same thing more than once? No. And furthermore, he does not need to be believed on, that is called idolatry -just like saying Creators words are the bible- two forms of idolatry, worship. Moshiach even said if anything believe because of the works themselves. Not believing like hamsters in a wheel, every day, every day, which is the pagan way -the heathen repetition of rules, prayers and sacrifices- also known as traditions. Having to do them again and again, like the Hebrews, to satisfy themselves and feel like they achieved acceptance, achieved understanding, achieved righteousness and are therefore welcomed, saved, blessed. This is completely ha-satan to Creator and further demonstrates exactly why the religion has failed the masses, why people are still dieing, warring, getting sick, afraid and more after 2047 years.
James.Wow, James! You surprise me with your quotations and memorizations from a book, no longer needed. You are funny. I laugh because you take all the info. Wrap it ip, and toss it out again. See, you too have a pattern of memorization of the words of the bible. However, you use them to prove the point that they are not needed??? Oh yeah, uou speak "my" language to show me that I err??? Funny. I don't have any points to prove. You must prove them yourself. You have proven to you that you must get along without the bible. Ok by me. You don't like my use of it as a guide? Sorry, you lose, again. The bible shows me how to live the life that God requires. I cannot change that. Neither can you. So, as to ATM, my words are not for your hearing. This word from my mouth is for those who will believe it. This word is for those who are weary and heavy-laden. You stand tall and firmly, wherever you are. You and I can only climb up/down the monkey bar. Though I am fit at 40, I'm not up for the challenge:) I only want to follow my instructions. Sorry to have "pulled" you in. But hey, it wasn't me.
Well, let's "bury" the hatchet with this:
From observing your posts and reading your articles, it appears you are, perhaps, trying to learn and have reached a safety-net of the mind called the text. Which is fine. But at some point you must either begin eating "solid food" {real spiritual nourishment} or end up starving to death from the very limited textual milk.
Is that simple. The alternative is to die of malnutrition, like 2074 years x millions of believers before you, else close the text, ween yourself off the bottle {milk} and take the most challenging, most exhilarating leap of your life into the KOH.
But, to press the issue of bible-only as the solution to the readers here, is not proper nor warranted. This is the only genuine thing I am opposing your perspective on. To proliferate or propagate a text-only cattle trough conversation is also in opposition to open-ended, enlightening, educating conversation.
ps, I would really like it if you can answer my questions:
First, what exact commands (full list, yes) did Moshiach demand/command people follow [might be a great Hub] and second, tell me what the Kingdom of Heaven is.
James.No, let's bury the hatchett with this: You are mistaken when you say that I am only relying on the textual to live this life. No Sir, it starts there. So see??? You have been debating with me under false pretenses
If there is a problem between your brother and you, there must be a mediator. The bible serves as such. We cannot go to "God-court" to handle our difference. The bible lists the information. Jesus left commands, it is cheating for me to list them for you. You need to find them for yourself. It is required. Now you have elevated beyond that. Sorry, I cannot wait for you to come back down. I got stuff ta do. As for your last question, that ball has been back in your court. Your turn.Why do people constantly do exactly that?
Toss the ball back, or refuse to answer direct questions, yet expect others to answer their barrage and accept their position as correct? Goes for theists and atheists. It is rude, unfriendly, and just bad manners. Why is so difficult to answer two very simple questions, if you know them? Makes no sense not to answer them, as it enlightens the readers. The information is not for me, I already read the text many, many times over. But, suppose the readers here lived in a place the bible was forbidden, had no access to one, and are legally blind or illiterate. How would they know what those precise commands are? More over, if your way, as you said your instructions, are accurate, why hide them from others -regardless of position, intellect, etc?
As for false pretenses: The book to you is the great escape, the great absolution. In it you are protected from the grueling "outside" world. A world you live in, despise and believe persecutes you, like many others believe this. The book allows the burdens of this world to appear easier, or at some point become easier, else major events to come that will ultimately insure that ease comes. But, the more one envelopes themselves in the text, the more away from reality they go and slowly fade, as their spirit fades and that seed of practical faith fades, until poof they are no longer living. Do I have proof of this? Yes. Hundreds I know who were far longer in-the-book and knowledge of it. They are all dead. In fact, millions, no billions are. Why? Pseudo-faith {textual knowledge resulting in absolution} versus practical faith {resulting in immortality} -which is the end goal of the entire story, yes?
James.You must answer your own first, whiny question. When I actally did answer you, you judged that I was wrong, then YOU "rudely" withheld your answer because I was not worthy enough, or something like that. I didn't cry about your failure to respond to me. I did not feel as if I was missing anything. Are you missing something? Or are you "carrot-dangling" again???
either way, there is nothing that you or anyone like you, can say that changes my heart in the least. You clearly go in and out of consciousness as we speak. You rarely remember anything correctly. Walk with your Abba??? Is he deaf? Just kidding as for the bible, it also serves as protection from those who have it slanted. Read for yourself, it says. You must know the truth first, before it may free you. You are really wicked in conversation. You resort to name-calling, labelling, and rudeness. My Abba does not work that way. I told you we walk with different entities.Again you skirt around, like ATM, even M Knowles, to deflect from answering. If someone asked me a direct question, and I have the answer regardless of my fear of reply, scrutiny, etc will answer, as I have to every question you and others ask.
Apart from this, there is no reason to withhold information that educates another. And tossing out "figure it out yourself" is the most selfish thing humans can do. So much for you and your truth.
This takes the cake. As an old friend put it: stick a toothpick in me, am done.
James.Noooooo!!! Please! You must answer as you so insist is fair. I have answered this question for you before. Remember??? Uh, I am learning a bit more about you now. I answered this very question. Now, you FORGET that when I asked you to correct me, it was YOU who walked away w/o responding. No ay de mí. I didn't feel I missed anything. Remember???
Sorry, I do not recall your specific question yet have answered numerous bombardments of yours included the many in between ???? ones.
Nevertheless, ask again.
I in turn asked two simple questions, which you have repeatedly not answered yet turned into a slinging match, which doesn't interest me nor the readers. if I asked the question in repetition, it probably means you have yet to actually answer, versus tossing word salad or tossing back the ball.
JamesNow you have forgotten your question. You asked me about the kingdom before. Remember??? When I answered you before, you laughed; told me how utterly misguided and foolish i was to not know something so simple and fundamental. However when I posed the same question (about the kingdom, in case you don't follow) you ran away with the info. Dont you remember all this??? I cannot believe you don't. You ask again. Then demand a duplicate answer??? Is your Abba somewhat senile? He sure neglects to inform you of even your recent past. Or are you listening???
Honestly, I have not found the post where you specifically asked me what the KOH is. My apologies if I overlooked it. In this thread I also did not find a question you asked me.
However, I have asked a second question, in this thread regarding "The List" of commands specifically give to everyone to follow. To which you responding with more questions and a blatantly selfish remark of "go figure it out yourself".
JamesAwww, again, I am neither the rule-maker, nor the rule enforcer. We male up our own minds as to what the Lord is saying to us through the word. Only God judges the heart. Only he knows if you are following him. Our "actions" just tell a different story sometimes.
I cannot help you remember where I answered your question. It was days ago. I answered, you made a snide un-Abba-like comment and left me hanging when I asked for you to correct me. It was quite funny. I figured you would do it. It seems your character. But I did not cry. I went on. Now you are back, but you left that "exchange" somewhere else. I remember.
Ok genaea, exactly WHAT is the Kingdom of Heaven, in your understanding? Is it something which will only be attained after death? Or is it something which one can experience here, in this lifetime?
How are we expected to benefit from by accepting all your beliefs about "god" etc.? In your opinion.
Also, what do you believe will happen to us as a result of NOT believing that stuff? What in your understanding is "Hell?"The other day, my response to Jacharless was, those of us who believe what he said. I know he should remember now, maybe not though... Anywho, upon further introspection, I feel that the kingdom of God is a place where God rules all. "... on earth, as it is in heaven" A place where his will permeates the very land. And he is praised as the ultimate victor over all that is not like him.
As for hell... That is someone else's discussion. I just don't care if it is a real dungeon where it is dark and wet and hot and tormenting. Don't give a darn. Won't end up thinking about it long. I aint goin'. It could be Six Six Six Flags, Great America for all I care. I want to live my life so that people see God within me. I want to be sure that I agree with what he says is good, so that I may strive to attain a small sliver of the life of constant face-to-face communion with him that was promised. Don't suit you? Ok.Ok, so I will not waste any more time on you. Will un-follow this hub. I find your discussion sadly lacking in human honesty. You have a self-imposed mission.
genaea, you are stuck in the bible. We have read it (and I do continue to reference it, with considerable interest), but we have moved beyond it. That book of text is just a book. Written by human beings, albeit probably very wise and aware individuals. Yet it has been interpreted to the needs of individuals. You can believe what you want. I can accept or reject what I want. You go your way, I go my way.
Obviously no amount of arguing will convince you of this, so you live your life in your beliefs. Limit your life. Your choice.
You do make many valid points. Your gift is different than mine. He knows who needs what, he is our father. To me, God's word starts with the rules. The understanding of the rules and how far off we actually are from all that is pure, because of selfish desire, is a great starting point. We should know what was done before. Records of most everything "important" in our society and many others, exist for a reason. Why would God not confirm his character in black and white for all to see? God knows that we have a tendency to forget. If your "ministry" no longer includes a printed version of God's word, ok. I cannot follow you in this though. My father left me instructions to follow until his "shift" is complete. He did not trust me to know what to do once he left. I need him to check up on me too, I mess up a lot. Your father trusts you with his house. Congratulations!!!
- genaeaposted 12 years ago0
Yeah, documented alongside my picture. You better be careful listening to James. The facts are on my every post. You and he both missed that??? That illustrates a lot. Ok, i will stop here.
So, yours is a home-grown religion, shaped to satisfy your own needs. You are welcome to it. And I mean this sincerely, because your life would obviously be empty without it.
It most definitely does not suit me, and presumably it would not suit many others.
By the way, the "joys of God," as you put it ..... I daily marvel at the joys of this world. As far as I am concerned, there is nothing to experience beyond this life I have now. To waste the joys of this day, this moment, would be such a pity. I have eyes, ears, nose, tongue, skin, plus all of my mental faculties. These are blessings for me. Some people have much less but they usually compensate in some ways by their magnanimity and courage. They give me encouragement and inspiration.
The forest, the meadow, the mountains, the valley. The sea, the waves, the clouds, the dynamic changes which take place and the long, long history of everything which has preceded me.......everything in this world is glorious and awesome. Why would anyone need to dream up a guilt-ridden concoction such as you believe in?
I repeat.... you are welcome to it!Thank you! The welcome to my savior is appreciated. Did you know that my God made the glorious works that you marvel at? I am not surprised that you have chosen to concentrate on the wonders that appeal to your eyes. The bible speaks about that too. The wonders and awe in the mountains, trees, and streams are not worthy of our praise. The one who made them, however, IS worthy. What you can see, only a small portion of the wonder he wants us to experience. The assurance that the one who knows how it ALL works, holds my hand, is the awe-inspiration for me. I don't worry that that fact alone makes you to believe that I am "crazy, misled, indoctrinated, or untruthful" in any manner. I expect that. I read my bible. Have your way. It is your right.
And yet, geology would show us how mountains and streams were formed, no gods were required. Evolution shows us how trees evolved, no gods were required.
Seems there is not one there to praise after all.Only in the mind of the one who wants to believe. No more substance to it than that.
I have numerous times honoured the person who wants to believe, like I do the need which genaea has portrayed. The need to convince others of her own point of view, and the presumption that we are any less "right" if we don't accept her point of view, is what I reject.
The trouble is our world is currently full of fanatics. When the fanatical viewpoint is fostered then it can become the cause of oppression. This is why I am coming back to these comments so often, and not leaving them be. It worries me.So I see which report YOU believe. Who is right? We can't all be. God has secrets that NO ONE knows. Not even the authors of your books of evolution. Did they ever find out what was in that black hole? Can they know what is contained within the earth's core? Shoot! They can't even precisely tell you how the pyramids were built! And that wasn't so long ago! How can they claim to have their own origin explained? It is ALL just big guesses. Now if that suits you, ok. I choose differently. Why does that upset you so? Aint "tree-praisn" good enough for you???
I don't believe in any reports, whatever that is. However, one cannot ignore facts. Why do you?
Speaking for God has got to be one of the most dishonest positions to take.
No, but we know a great deal about trees, mountains and streams, which you appear to know nothing about except what you read from the Bible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_of_the_Earth
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 … 104302.htm
No, yours is an argument from incredulity.
Your dishonesty does not upset me in the least.
unless of course that gravity, thermodynmics, dna and etc were created by god. Then of course, god would be essential to the creation of mountains, streams and trees.
cheers
- ahorsebackposted 12 years ago0
I suppose to honor this posting we should all jump to the correct side of the columns ,however seeing that the O P"S intent is simply to throw a few digs out there as bait . And as always , the non-believer claims "they are breaking down my door , these evangelists"! But hey who's" preaching "now ? The OP?
- genaeaposted 12 years ago0
And no, the kingdom of God is not experienced in "reality" as is the beef of many of you. Now, faith is what it takes. God's kingdom will come on earth when he is ready. There is an innumerable number of his to live with him, so maybe some of them have yet to be born. I cant count innumerable, but God is counting.
- genaeaposted 12 years ago0
Jacharless, another point: everyday we must decide yes or no. We are tempted on every side. We must choose to follow. We are not forced into God's kingdom. Those who will be there, really want to be there. It is not an "act good or else" doctrine. We ALL know that acting good is an impossibility on most accounts. It is a thinking doctrine. A doctrine that teaches us that we will never know it all, can never do it all, but our hearts should be wrapped up in the truth. Know the truth, (that Jesus died for you so that you may be acceptable to the father through faith in him) so that that truth can free you from the sin within. It is so simple yet so complex at the same time. Did you even understand all that?
Actually we do not have to decide every day. How can I say this? Simply two things:
a. Once a decision is made -yes or no- it is made. There is no reason to alter that decision.
b. Actuality there is no decision humans are required to make. Decisions implore Choice. Choices implore a lack of Understanding, of Practical Faith. Choice also implores exceedingly Great Fear and Division of Philos {Wisdom}. Choice or Reason IS the Adamic Inception, which most understand as eating of the Tree of Knowledge. Good-Evil IS the dividing of Philos.
Actually, no. We assume we are tempted because we continue to Reason, to divide Wisdom into parts. The evidence of that division is the world we see today. A world much different than the one humans were designed to manage. A result that caused all this trouble, and the need for Restoration.
Yes, correct. No one is forced into the KOH nor out of it -except by man and doctrines of obey or go to hell.Which is one major point, in me, that brought me to it. It required much thinking. So much thinking it became addictive, exhausting and equally did not satisfy the result of thinking, Understanding {Wisdom}. The doctrine, upheld and founded in the bible is a front to back account of the division of Wisdom.And this is one of the biggest errs of the teaching of the text and additions by people reasoning the text. Every single blip of necessary information, about everything humans, needed to know, to exist in-between {meaning as immortal entities of both "heaven-earth"} and able to recognize, manage and enjoy the entire planet -all its many and beautiful parts- was genetically placed in them.
Think about that.
How many species of birds are there? How many kinds of plants, fish, bugs, etc. We were designed and coded with Understanding of them all PLUS the Understanding of why they work the way they do. Not just "cuz He made them. Period. End of Story." That is just the beginning of the story.
In man was placed knowledge and understanding of himself, and all his parts.
To that was added yet another layer: knowledge and understanding of the universe and its many parts. Wait! there is more. To that was added knowledge and understanding of Creator. To that was added one unique, utterly defining, awesome, ineffable thing that no other creation has nor will ever -not fish, angel or planet x. To man was given the Breath of Life Himself. Why? So that man would be consumed in Him and reflect every single solitary thing that was made and enjoy it all in one perfectly unique existence.
Man was created above thinking. Far above Reason. And kilometer upon kilometer above needing to decide moment to moment. Man was formed by ruach, soaked in ruach, programmed and enabled with ruach AND then placed within ruach to reflect the hidden wonders, secrets and greatness of Creator.
{so much for being nothing, worthless filthy rags, etc}
You do not remember who you are?! Remember Eve. Remember. Moshiach came to remind you. The Spirit -the essence of the Creator Himself came to remind you. Why do people continue to resist Him, I wonder. Do they truly prefer madness, chaos and death over Life? Is their amnesia really that incurable, despite the millions of pills and thousands of years of textual, doctrinal "Aum"...
Which is irrelevant. If you or myself never heard of Moshiach would not change what was done and undone. This is why I am constantly repeating to you -and others- precisely the reason the text is inadequate and only -repeat only- by and through the Spirit -that same Breath of Life- are humans able to be fully restored to that place.
Great, you know Moshiach came, did works, fulfilled the Atonement of Cain, the Law, Babel --everything Reversed & Restored. Awesome! { and approximately 50 million monthly readers just read this or will this month. Bang! gospel preached to the world. Mission accomplished. between here and Facebook & Twitter, pretty much 6 billion people just got served the Good News. Now what? Aum?}
Why after 2047 years is everybody still sitting in front of an empty cross, an empty tomb chanting the documentation of those events -over and over and over and over and over - as if somehow those documents are going to make that transformation happen in them??!
James.You are mad! What in the world have you done? I don't know how you come up with this hidden information. It is most likely from within though. The KOH is foreign to me. Moschiac? Foreign. I am so amused by your enlightenment, and I know that I know where it comes from.
Take, for example your illustration that "confirms" we don't have to decide, once the decision has been made. Did you ask Solomon like I told you to do? You probabably cannot get a word through to him though. Being one assumed to have wisdom beyond compare, he made a decision one day. Bowed to one of his wives' Gods. LOST HIS MIND!!! He "decided/chose/elected/thought too much" that God's way was no longer the best way. Probably couldn't count to ten once "self" was done chewing his bones. Now you...who the hell is your Abba? You speak as someone who is in the same transition as Sol. I have read many of your sentences and frankly, some of them, just don't make sense. I don't cut and paste, cuz I just don't want to learn. We assume we are tempted because we reason??? That statement is not utterly ridiculous to you Solomon? I guess it would not be huh? The bible a front to who/what? You got it twisted. That is the issue. When you deny the truth,...just ask Solomon. You are bowing to Jach, he is too great! He cannot receive anymore? Reprobate?
Man knows nothing. Man guesses. He is sure of nothing. I don't know why birds work the way they do. That, i would have to pick up a book to find out. Programmed? Though they call me Pisces, i have no idea how or why fish work (save for, add hot sauce) i would have to pick up a book to find out. Programmed??? Now that should end the conversation, but it don't cause you said something else that needs address. I have no idea why I make the decisions I make most times, automatically. I have no idea about my sub conscience. I can't even pick up a book to find out what is there. But I stay close to the one who made me. Now HE knows all that stuff i mentioned. He helps me navigate around all that unknown stuff. You, who can't remember recent activities, nor tell 10 months from two years, has been programmed with all that knowledge? Now there's your problem... You're about to burst with information. Too much KOH, not enough humility. Man created above thinking??? No, YOU created above thinking, alone. You alone, "soaked" in SOMETHING. Have you taken any of those "pills"? Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No MAN comes to the Father but by him.Nice rant.
Mad? Me? have a cup of Tea!
Yes, I am nearly out of my mind. Good of you to finally notice.
Now, If the KOH is foreign to you, than sadly, you will not be able to enter into it.
Creator has hidden nothing from us. In fact, He made it clear he desires to reveal all things hidden -and watch closely, bring all things to our remembrance. That means humans forgot some things. A lot of things. But, the KOH brings that memory back. It is humans who hid -from jump street- from Creator and have been hiding ever since. {hello, Adam hiding behind a bush} Creator is out in the open for everyone to see. Always has been, always will. No peek-a-boo, no hide-n-seek, figure-it-out-if-you-can game. He gave us this information to commune with Him and be that image/likeness, meaning what He imagined and having His attributes within. And do not dare say He did not make man in His image/likeness or that that image is inept or lacking, because you would be lying, calling Creator a liar and what He created inferior.
Yes, above Reason man was created. Above Reason means above good-evil. Above and beyond right-wrong; yes-no. And you even confirmed it mentioning doing things automatically. It does not mean you do not know how to do those things, it means the Processor -the Brain- is doing what it was designed to, process Light. Where does that light come from? From inside, in the spirit. That spirit actually flows through your blood, but I cannot explain that right now. What I can explain is before Adam/Eve indulged their Brain -indulged Reason -indulged Thinking, their brain worked automatically and they understood how things worked. They were created to understand the entire planet. Versus theories of evolution or "Unga-bunga man make fire!". Man is the most intelligent creation Creator ever made. I highly doubt, for even one second, Creator would make man inept to His marvelous creations, void of information, when He purposely made man to govern ever edge of that creation AND to be the reflection of Himself.
Yes, the bible is a front to back account of what happened when man indulged Reason {good from evil}. He went Mad. The Inception -from Adam through Solomon -right up to work of Moshiach and even afterward, showing the difference between practical-faith {heart-knowledge} and doctrinal-fake {head knowledge}. The entire account sums up all the parts of Sin & Death like no other book can. What exactly do you think Passover was for, the Sea Parting, The Arc of the Covenant, the Dry Bones, the Cross, the Transfiguration with Moses and Elijah, the Resurrection, and the 2nd coming of the Spirit into man? Show and Tell? Magic Stories to tell your grand kids around the holographic iPad fire of the 22nd century? Or to assume the documents have power to thrust you into the KOH -or better, provide you a ticket to the Afterlife?
[btw Moshiach in Hebrew means Messiah, the Greek word Iesous, which you use as Jesus, is a pagan word for the son of Zeus. His real name would have been Y'shua ben Yosef or Joshua son of Joseph, commonly -but the titles given him are many, yes.]
Odd thing happened today. Was visited by a team -yes a team- of canvasing JW's. Nice people. Long story short, after 3 hours of conversation, they too were "blown away" by the same things I am saying to you. He and his wife agreed on many points, confused about others -especially about there being no Satan, no need for religion. But in spite of their dislikes and firm positions were willing to listen with an open heart. That surprised me and made me ask questions of them. What a great dialogue. By the end of the conversation they asked if they could come back and bring their friends -even their pastor- who would really be interested in listening what I said and could also answer questions I posed to them. I said, of course, while every single other neighbor who was "hit up" slammed the door shut in their faces: Christians, Jews, Muslims, Agnostics, Atheists, and others unknown to me. Why am I telling you this? Because I would like to have these same dialogues with you -as I do others here- versus the rambling/rant, "bible says" epilepsy.
James.Well, for me, our Exchanges go from one extreme to the other too quickly. Nothing personal. Pool will be enough
my imaginings and your imaginings are a little different. I have listened. But I aint hearin' nothin' . You have too much of something and not enough of the other. I understand your viewpoint. But to me, it is just not right. All of your ideas about humans being more than they actually are, human, are hard to get past. Our thoughts are not his thoughts. Our ways are not his ways. How can they be? Is a servant greater than his master? Is he even equal? God created us in his image, yes. But he did not reveal at least one secret to his own son. He told the garden dwellers, "Dont." and they reasoned to do. They said, nope, this way is better. But, they did not have all the info. They stepped out on their own KOH and drew back a nub. They disobeyed a direct command. You are fooling some folks. But they will be ok, if they read it and believe it for themselves. You are instructed by knowledge, it takes faith. Now i want you to leave!!! Let me grab your KOH for you. LOLI am not the one being instructed by knowledge, you are, actually.
You think, you reason, the bible {which includes scripture} is the knowledge of God.
Hebrews thought the same, even when Moshiach came and showed them face to face. lol. Stiff-necked Sallies.
And what need for faith then, since you have the bible. Because heck, the instructions are right there, right? Faith is bringing about what is not seen. It is not bringing about what is seen -like words in a book which we can all see {and read}. The KOH is unseen and cannot be known by doctrine, nor books, nor pseudo-faith {sensational overload sprinkled with memorized texts}. It takes REAL faith. And with faith comes a flood of Knowledge and Understanding.
As for His Ways, his thoughts: what makes you think the sum of all human thought is meant to imply the totality of His thoughts? lol, That is cray. The sum of human thought is just that, the sum He gave us. You assume my meaning is we know "everything" in totality, which is not what I said, at all. What I said was He programmed every bit of knowledge humans needed to manage this planet -front to back- understand creation, worlds far away and commune with Him. Remember, Creator never told Adam what the animals were, He just said, whatever you [Adam] call them, they will be. Why would Creator do that if man was not supposed to know about every last one -albino whale to microscopic flea.
If you disagree, then tell me why He made humans? To be Organic Bible Reading Robots?
If you know better, and think I am fooling people, then tell me why you -having the true faith- state again the KOH is foreign to you, when in fact, the KOH is within you. Not over there in the bible on the shelf.
James.The spirit that God gave me to keep me is referred to, in my world as the holy spirit. I am really confused about what you say your relationship is. You keep pointing to all this mind boggling what? Are you programmed to walk with the father and koh from birth? Did you learn it AFTER you gave up preaching? Did you dream it? Was it given to you by uh,? I guess it really doesn't matter. I am fine with your chosen path for you. As for me, and my house...
I know that I love my wife and my daughters, and that I prefer chocolate to spinach. I know these things without corroboration. I don't need evidence to believe them, because they aren't factual claims. They are true because I believe them.
Factual claims, I don't claim to "know." I only believe them, to a greater or a lesser degree of confidence.Perhaps it is referred to as such, yes, but unless a persons knows the KOH they cannot say they know the Spirit in them. And again I remind the readers, there is only One Spirit, undivided. Every human is programmed genetically with all information necessary for an immortal existence and things concerning the elements of this world and more... In addition to that information, are also given the joy of understanding why these things exist, thier mechanics {how they work} --and even more, the ability to experience them; to commune {walk with} Him, yes -even before birth, even before conception. Before. I have had dreams too, yes. And more than dreams -experiences.What "house"? A "house" that serves the Lord is one that is no stranger {is not foreign} to the KOH. Because the "house" {dwelling place} of Creator is the KOH...
James.So, you are saying that I am wrong because the bible is believed by me to be of value? And that my spirit is somewhat tarnished or underdeveloped because if my use of biblical scripture as a guide? Again, i am following Jesus, in this life and the life to come. I cannot buy your berries. Jesus quoted and corrected the understanding of scripture. That that I understand, I quote as well. You have developed a way around it? Ok, but I stay here. Thank you for trying to show me your ways. However, I am only interested in the way of Christ. Are we there yet?
I did not have to say it, you already understood it, which is why you asked another rhetorical question. No, you are not. Not even in the slightest degree are you following "Jesus". You are following words in a book that may or may not have been said by him. Huge difference.Only because He came to fulfill ALL Scripture & ALL prophecy. Having done so, removed the necessity for ANY scripture -be it placed between the eyes, in a little box, wrapped around the arm, posted on the door frames of houses to be remembered, day in and day out, when coming or going, and most definitely printed in a book. We discussed this earlier, but for the sake of the reader will elaborate again: to the Pharisees he quoted Torah, to fisherman he talked about fish, to the tax collector he talked about money, to the whore he talked about faithfulness and to common {farmers} talked about seeds, tress and such. To each kind of people he spoke their language, and what they related to best. Well, with all due respect, I know atheists who can quote better than you --or any believer for that matter. Means nothing at all.And what Christos do you have? To have the ways of Christos, which literally means Anointing, one must have the Spirit, which IS the anointing. And the ways of the Anointing are found only in the KOH. To speak your language: "The Spirit comes. From which direction? No mind knows, but it comes regardless. Where does that Spirit go? It does not matter. What matters is that it comes and goes as it did when it hovered and brooded over the face of all creation. So, it will be with those born into the Spirit {KOH}."
James.Jesus spoke the principles of scripture in a way that all could understand. Thus, he spoke those same principles (in the scriptures) in parables. For clarity's sake. You are taking the words that begin this journey (the foundation) and telling "the readers" that they don't need it. It will throw some off-track, but not all. God's word is printed. His will in in print. His permission, extended to us all. We are allowed to take it or leave it. I am taking. You keep performing "for the benefit of the readers". I am here for you. You as well, are allowed to leave it. I see the choice you've made repeatedly. I, for one, must know how Jesus spoke, walked and taught when he came. Since I know none of his friends personally, I will keep reading up on it. I find what I need in the bible. As I seek, God reveals, slowly. He knows me so well!!!
Precisely, the principles of Torah, not the bible.
Second, only one or twice did he give a direct "chapter, verse" quote of Torah.
And the only reason he did was to explain to the scribes of that Torah, what the entire sum of the Oral & Written Torah {Scripture} was about: sin & death. He explained to them in their language why studying, memorizing, ritualistic worship and repetition of keeping the text, in the many ways they did {i.e. eyes, arms, books, door posts, etc} was utterly fruitless and useless. He further notes that only reason the Torah even existed was to prove that Laws {Rules} cannot//could not govern humans, cannot//could not make them righteous {clean} or unrighteous {unclean}; that their idea of being good {works: keeping the Law} and evil {works: not keeping the Law} was also completely fruitless. That good and evil was nothing more than Philos divided in them. that from the moment Adam indulged his mind, he became divided in himself, conflicted, confused, afraid and that amnesia set in, cutting him off from Understanding.
That the burden they chose to carry was the heaviest burden ever. A burden so heavy, it broke their backs, caused them pain, multiple enslavement, death, war, famines, sicknesses, contempt, division and countless other adjectives. That his purpose was to lift that burden off their shoulders, fulfill the necessary elements and remove every aspect of it, east from west, forever. And that the only burden they now carried was actually not a burden. It was the same gift given to Adam. A gift called Life. No more Rules, no more Laws,no more Prophecies, no more rituals, sacrifices, temples, good-evil concepts, no more text. But rather by and through the Father {the Spirit} every human would be given complete, unhindered, unhidden access to immortality once more.
This was so hard for them to hear. They were so mad, frustrated, infuriated to be told their entire lives -generations upon generations of having this burden of doing the "right thing", of studying every single line and yod of the Oral & Written Text- was a waste of time, useless. Not an easy thing to hear at all. And It reached a boiling point and they literally ripped the hair out from their beards {y-ouch, that is painful!}, tore their clothes, covered their ears and lunged at him -to kill him on the spot. It was blood boiling rage. Nearly 2000 years of all that trouble, all that work, only to be told they were wrong the entire time. That they were used to prove that the text, the rules, the prophecies were powerless to restore them to the KOH. That because they were so stiff-necked, and insistent on doing their own thing, their way, it caused them to suffer the greatest of all other people in history.
But, he concluded that his purpose was to insure the New Coven would not charge a single piece of that text, nor the works done while burdened by the text, against them --nor their generations all the way back to Abram and every generation to come. To that was further added every single human, who was outside of the Law {called Gentile}. That Moshe and Elijah -representatives of the Law & Prophets were witnesses of this. That he would show them death has no power over them, because the law is removed. That the blood of Abel was avenged by his blood and the Atonement complete. That the temple would no longer be Beth El { the house of God} -that once more the human spirit would be that dwelling place.
In conclusion: No book, text, parchment, tablet, rule, requirement nor grave required. That not even the words spoken by Moshiach himself can make that happen. Only the Father {Spirit} is able to do so. Even Moshiach said he was not able. That his words were nothing in comparison to the ruach written on every heart, in every mind -which again would be remembrance of many. That all humans need do walk in practical faith : be utterly consumed by Spirit and transformed -body, brain and spirit {together} into that immortal being...
James.The Torah is the first five books of the Tanakh (AKA, the "Hebrew Bible"), so in what sense do you mean "the principles of Torah, not the bible?"
Chasuk,
My reference is in regard to [her] emphatic statement of the bible being the words of Creator and carrying with it all the rules humans should live by, study in depth, in order to advance {evolve, enter} the KOH. That the principles which are contained in Torah { which includes Midrash, Mishna and Talmud} are specifically there and no where else. That Moshiach did not enforce those rules nor add rules -more principles- to be carried out in military fashion { aka orders without question }. He in fact removed those rules -and any other probable rules, as well as prophetic events, completely, because all those works done in the rules, by the rules, for the sake of upholding those rules, followed afterward, were simply the vanity of ego. A vanity that caused all the trouble to begin with. A vanity that divided Philos {Wisdom} in humans, causing them to become amnesiacs {suffer the effects of Inception}.
James.
EDIT: Much of the remaining elements called "Old Testament" point primarily to Prophecies, Haiku, Music and events resulting from the effect of the Rules. While the Bible contains these things, and leaves things out, it is completed by events surrounding Moshiach and mostly {one sided} dialogues between Saul and the Gentiles. Therefore it is impossible to claim memorization, study, evoking of the words within { also a type of praying} have any power to make a human perfect or restore them to immortality, which is the gist of the "New Testament".Now, you have just put a ton of words inside my mouth. We are not supposed to bear false witness, but if you read your bible, you would know that
i said and will say until my lst breath that the bible is our guide for getting to know the heart of God. It explains who he is. It is the beginning phase. I read my bible because I feel a warm embrace by the pages. That book is a great big comfy blanket for me. Especially the newer stuff. I don't have to justify that to you. But I bet that if you actually walked with my "Dad" you would already know. And you definitely would not be against it. Satan is doing the same work that you do. "Don't read that shit!!!" he tells the people. He knows what it does for the heart and mind. But he is a liar. And he lost.
Ok, I got about half-way through, my mind/eyes wearied. You say so much to say si little. NO NEED FOR RULES? Now that is the most ridiculous lie I ever heard. No rules would have left his speaking null and void. Do you honestly believe he spoke for nothing? Do you honestly believe he said that he was leaving commandments for nought? What madness! Jesus taught his followers how to live this life. He dpoke what he called the important matters of the law. The laws existed for a reason. The torah is the first 5 books of the bible? Jesus considered them important enough to untangle the meanings of those laws that the people over-thought. No question that the sheep have directives. The sheep; not you. You have another method. And you know what that means, though you now deny it.
Yes, no more need for rules! Gasp, is that so shocking to you? lol.
Heaven forbid humans have no oppressive rules, they might actually be happy, lifted up in joy and such.
You think you need rules? Fine. I want you to meet my friend Matis. He and many of his friends were Hasidic Hebrews. Their rules make Christians and their doctrinal rules look like Cream Puff Sally's. They KNOW ALL THE RULES VERBATIM. From the moment of birth their parents recite the rules over them. By age five they are commanded to read-study-memorize-recite, read-study-memorize-recite, read-study-memorize-recite, every single yod of every single rule in the text -and better NOT forget, NOT misquote them or dare consider breaking even a smidgen of them. The result for failure to obey makes Crucifixion & Christian Hell also look like a perfect day at the beach.
I figure if you start now, by the time you are 80ish you should have it down pat. Get busy, "Jesus is coming!" and he isn't waiting on you to finish learning before he demands an account of your knowledge of his words and the bible. lol
Moshiach gave no rules.
Saul did -a lot of them, in fact.
The only principle Moshiach reminded folks of, was the Universal Principle. Easy. But you need rules because you have no real faith. You have head knowledge of a book all about Sin. What, if you recall, is the result//reward of sin knowledge {meaning Wisdom divided within}? Do you remember, Eve?
Your claim is bogus and vain textual adherence, repetition also fruitless. It would be better to have a millstone tied to your leg and fall into the ocean, then to glean the textual fields of sin & death, IMO.
JamesYou keep speaking the same sentences over and over again. After no rules, i went numb
"ye have heard that it was said, thou should love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy, but I say unto you...pray for them that despitefully use, and persecute you. Pray for them. He whipped the people out of the church with a commandment. As well, he spoke many corrections to the "laws" put in place by the church. Read the red words in the bible, he even told the people to obey his commands. You forgot? It is not too late. You are not conversing with one who does not know. As I said before, you will fool some. Not all.
- ahorsebackposted 12 years ago0
You sir , Have no faith at least not in the spiritual sense ! And that alone! ......Is required . And yet , for you to have so much literal faith in that there is no higher being blows my mind ............., Can't a reflection in that mirror of your faith, yours or ours , allow you to allow another to believe without your constant barage of digs against a "believer ".....No , I think it's the smallness of the "open and intellectual " minds that falls short of common sense ....as usual! I always get a kick out of this crap load of intellectual horsebucky!
You don't have to believe , in fact I'd rather you didn't .
Yet she does,
You are but a card carrying member of the forum cyber bullies society ? - genaeaposted 12 years ago0
Troubled,
Great news!!! I read your article. Guess what? Somebody FINALLY THINKS they know how the pyramids were built. Science is making great strides. They may GUESS up on the truth one day:) or, just keep on guessing. Hi Everyone,
It is no doubt to say that God knows everything. Even if you take a sigh, God knows the reason of taking it or the reason what to happen next and why it was happening.
Thanks for choosing this religious topic that every one relate to it.- genaeaposted 12 years ago0
Jach, you directly misquoted the text. Was that purposely? "It is better to have a millstone tied abour your neck and be cast into the depths of the sea, than for you to cause the least of his to fall into sin." To me, that is the sin of disbelief. You making them fall? Don't read the rules??? Don't know what the bible says??? Don't study it??? Jesus studied it, right??? Please SOMEBODY!!! get me a tissue. Please be careful Sir.
Yes, it was paraphrased, but to the point. YOU continue to fall into sin, because of your obsession with sin. By obsession I do mean the Law pertaining to Sin -which is the bible and its effect, which is death.
See the aforementioned statement.
Wow, five more questions and still no answers from you. Typical cyclical. You are better at church than you pretend, little lady. Am only telling the truth, not my truth. There are NO RULES. Find me one rule Moshiach established --just one-- between the 4G and the small entry in Acts. And keep in mind, the 4G are repetitive entries about the same thing during a meager 3 1/2 year period of time. The other Rules are centuries old and make up 85% of the bible. Ding! Pick It Up!
You want rules ??? Then follow ALL 613 Rules, else you are what they call a hypocrite, just like the Pharisee were who kept the yolk on the peoples neck. You want to learn more about sin ??? Go ahead, do not let me get in your Way. Add another 10 kilos to the millstone!
The more you learn about good-evil; sin-death; the further from the KOH you go, just like Adam and Eve. Took a long time to finally kill them and every other human being who has believed in sin and effect of sin -death. To paraphrase again, "By your words you are justified or condemned to death. Who's words? Your words. Not Jesus words. No Saul's words. Not Petra's words. YOURS. Jesus words justified him and only him. His words are his testimony, just as your words are your testimony. And his words were confirmed when he was lifted up as the first born from the dead. Are you there yet???
You want to experience the effect of sin, the result which is death ??? Hey, be my guest. More "power" to ya. Me, I prefer Life..Please, allow me. You are going to need it...a lot of them, actually. Ahem, Sorry, love, no can do. Your claims are still bogus and you have yet to prove they are not.
James.This is not about proving anything to anybody. God's word is to be proof enough. For me, it is. So don't concern yourself with my presumed downfalls. You are justified or condemed to death by the words you speak. Jesus also said, "it is not what goes into a man that defiles him (makes his soul unclean) but what comes out. Those things that we say, can defile our spirits. You feel that barring God's children from the words/life of Jesus, told about biblically, will justify you? Talk about stiffnecked... Humility is the cloak of God's children. A proud look... Well, you know. I don't know why you have turned away from truth, but many will follow you. Not all.
Incorrect. It is about proving everything. As a matter of fact, Moshiach said that. But, this is typical doctrinal safety net because the collective believing lack evidence of what they claim to believe.Again with the Sin mentality? Really? Did you not read what I wrote completely ??? What downfalls ??? What Sin ??? That is what I said. you just reinforced it. Thank you.Not at all. And I am not barring anyone from anything. I have shown you why the bible is inadequate on several occasions. It is the reminder of the Law of Sin Death -cover to cover. Don't believe me? Fine. I am not going to force you to believe it. That would be precisely like you or other bible thumpers. Again, to repeat, it is certainly your choice. Moshiach said the same thing to the Hebrews -you know the folks commissioned to carry the ENTIRE burden of the RULES for thousands of years. Still it is HYSTERICAL how believers, like the Hebrews cannot let go of the rules -and violently, vehemently try to hold on to them with all their strength and will fight and die protecting or defending those Rules. Rules to defend and protect just one thing: Sin & Death {aka their ha~satan, ego, amnesiac thinking}. Rules upheld to justify a bleeding lack of practical faith; a lack of evidence of the KOH in them. Rules that will eventually kill them, their self-made doctrinal enemies and any other person who touches the LSD {and no, not the drug itself, but the rules which are exactly like the drug...lol}. Cloak of invisibility is more like it. A cloak that hides the KOH from themselves and others. How do you know what I have done? You do not even know the heart within you -which is not my assumption- it was your statement on several occasions. You are claiming because I do not follow the bible like a good little idol {bible} worshiper that I have turned from truth? I have not turned toward nor away from any part of Truth -except your truth and every other believers "personal" truth. Six Billion different truths all claiming to be the Truth yet not one iota of those truths manifesting the KOH. But certainly enough planks to build a million new Arks.
And I incorrect? Let's put it to the test by you answering my earlier question:
What new Rules {commands, edicts} did Moshiach establish and state everyone should follow. Just one will do. And the List would be even better.
James.Jesus said, "Do good to them that hate you." and a myriad of other things. That is the one you asked for, now find the rest. You cannot live this life without agreeing with the text. You must know that it is good. You must realize your shortcoming and be humble and thankful for the gift. To be "puffed-up" is a problem. You claim that my bible quotations are an unnecessary practice. A lack of understanding. Therefore a downfall, right? I feel that your lack of understanding is displayed through your constant rant about your KOH. It is not a common term. You are showing off for the crowd. You want to demonstrate your knowledge through the verbiage. God comes down to our level. Remember how my Jesus spoke each ones' language to bring the knowledge of Godly, biblical, yes torah, script? You are not like Jesus. Therefore, not much like the creator at all. None of us can follow the bible. Proven fact. It is ideal and to be upheld as an ultimate truth of God. I have understood mostly that you have been eating too many of your own fruits. That is what started all the trouble in the first place. They changed the course of history forever, nibbling at the wrong stuff. God's word is best. It does not come from you, but God. First through belief in the ultimate truth. Then, he meets you where you are.
Everything you have said here is not the Truth.
I cannot continue this descend into your truth -which is commitment to Sin & Death, sorry.
Perhaps, if you say something non-cyclical, non-divisive, it might change my mind. Nothing you have said makes sense.Shortcomings, downfalls, textual worship, beliefs are all the words of the dead. What words of Life do you know?
Moshiach's words you quote only because they were printed for you, to satisfy laziness and lack of practical faith. In short you are hiding behind his words, because your words have no authority, no power, cannot be applied to manifest immortality nor prove that salvation. You are a thief, and a bad thief at that. you have stolen the Fathers glory which is not yours to take and call it righteousness.
You are sad or upset because I mention, many times, the KOH. A kingdom foreign and unknown to you -and millions before you and possibly millions after you, who have chosen their ego over truth. Disguise it, cloak it, twist it any which way you prefer, the result is the same. The Truth is in you, but you refuse to see and embrace it. Death is your hope and your harvest. In fact, your every word shows how you prefer, rejoice and hope for death to come. Proving even more that obsession. Truth was put in you from the beginning yet, you, like others, trade truth for rules, doctrines to protect from the effects of knowing good-evil. To hide, as Adam did, from his shame and nakedness. But these things cannot save you, restore your forgetfulness, nor transform you -body, brain and spirit- into the immortal you were created to be. For it is that immortality, that transformation, with proves the glory of the Father; that proves the perfect Will. You have made your choice. Go, and manifest the fruit of your decision...
James.Since everything that I have said is not the truth, and they are the words of Jesus, then I will call you Houston. Cuz we got a problem. I am sure that you have not gotten this "joke" so I must explain. The words if the bible are the truth. Are they not? Also, the words of Jesus are the words of that same bible that is the truth, no??? Since you have called the words that I speak, the words of Jesus and the bible a lie, maybe, it is Houston alone with the problem. The words of Jesus a lie??? Did you think on that before you typed it? My guess, again, is no. You are SO interested in smashing my view, that you have mistakenly called my ABBA a liar??? Oh, my ABBA agrees with Jesus too. But, you don't even seem to acknowledge that fact. You walk with ABBA? You mean the rock band??? Ego? You have yet to notice that it is you who continuously praises you, and your knowledge. This same knowledge that has repeatedly denied the truth and called the words of God a lie??? I speak the words of Jesus; the closest human representation we have of the father. You call me a thief? You are trying to steal the word of God from his children. The words that I speak, the words of Jesus bring life. Your words death to you. I thought you got that from the last words I spoke that came from Jesus. It is what comes out that defiles you. The word of God is a lie, is one of those death-bringing statements. All of the words of Jesus bring life.
Lastly, I have no power. I have told you that many times. I know that you have powers, but God did not give them to you; maybe your Abba did. Have you had that power since the eighties? He made sure that no one would be fooled. He put it in writing. We have the ability to know all that we need to know. Too much information without God will burst your brain Solomon. Ego is to be left out of the equation. I am pretty sure that I have at least the education that you have had. I love words. I love reading them. I love writing them. Not a bragger and I hate to say that, my reading comprehension scores have always been among the highest in my class. Each class. Yet, I have many problems following your posts. They are so full of information that they overwhelm. Long, long, long puffs of smoke. Million dollar words with worthless amounts of logic and knowledge, just too much. You are even so interested in blotting out the words of Jesus that you call him a liar? At the same time claiming to be "of God"???
Now...I ramble. Oops. Never meant to be influenced.
wont happen again.I can't leave you guys alone for a minute. Honestly, you are both very earnest Christians, obviously devoted to Christ and truly seeking God. Why not hear each other out?
I see a bit more of Gabriel in Genaea and more of Michael in James. These two Angels are very different and have different views of the same thing but they are both very necessary, harmonious and important.
Isn't it possible that God is trying to show you both something through the other? Be careful or you might miss it.
At any rate, thanks for the discussion I think I have a new gem or two to think about.Hi! You waited a long time to return to us
I thought we were done.
Let me direct your attention to Rev 12:17.
17 reads like this: And the dragon (the one that had been thrown down to the earth) was angry at the woman and declared war against the rest of her children - all who keep God's commandments and maintain their testimony for Jesus.
Now this is who I am reminded of when I encounter your "Michael".
Anger seems to be the motivation on many accounts. I smile because I know that the "battle" has been won!!!Oh no, Michael is the archangel, He leads Gods army against Satin (the red dragon) in Revelation. In Christian tradition Michael wars against evil and Gabriel is more the loving, healing influence of God. You are like Gabriel precisely because you know the battle has already been won and that makes you smile...
James and I have a similar outlook, so I love that you always just know God is God so everything is going to be alright. The difference is I don't really see a conflict except with satin and his army. Everyone is doing the best they can and we have to hold each other up, stay faithful and God will do the rest.The dragon in the scripture i mentioned was satan, from what I understood. He is leading a war against "her" children.
They are described as the ones who follow God's commands and hold tightly to the testimony of Jesus. James says, there are no commands!!! Angrily, let me add. He also says that we have a testimony of our own, it is thievery "steal" Jesus'.
To me, he sounds just like the angry dragon which was cast down to declare war.
Michael, from what I understand, fought as a warrior FOR God. Gabriel, from what I understand, was a messenger FOR God. Neither of them said, "There are no commands!", nor, "Do away with the torah law, it is death to you!" These statements are not Christ-like. They are in opposition.I understand how you feel and to be honest I haven't followed exactly everything you guys have been talking about, you're both just too prolific to keep up with. Further, I won't speak for James as he can and I'm sure will speak very well for himself.
Jesus said "he that believeth in me and the works that I do, shall he do also, and greater than these shall he do". He also said, "whosoever has the faith even unto a grain of mustard seed shall say unto this mountain be thou removed and cast into the sea and has no doubt of it in his heart, it will be done". To me it's sort of a reverse litmus test. I can't do what Jesus did, as much as I want to and I haven't been doing much mountain moving either, so I have to ask if I really believe or just believe I believe, you see?
No matter how much we study and hope, do we really believe the way Jesus wanted us to? We have to daily...no hourly, take up our cross and follow Him. You excluded, I think sometimes people are a bit too sure they are saved, perhaps in some cases the "first shall be last and the last first". Remember what Jesus said when the disciples were arguing over who was first among them. Anyway, it's my perception this has to do with what James is talking about. It's something I can't be reminded of too often.I think about the "greater works..." quotation often. To me, it has a lot to do with what he considered greater. It makes me think about what he told Thomas about faith w/o seeing. Moving mountains, another attainable feat. Mountains come in many forms. Jesus spoke in parables often.
To be considered prolific is an honor I must deny. I yet have much to learn, yet, some things I know from experience and revelation. The bible is where it all comes from. Nothing hidden.
I can tell, however, that you did not follow the conversation. James said that there is NO MORE taking up our cross daily. Once we have the "Spirit" it is ours with no further action, decision-making, or rules. So maybe you two are not as alike as you once said.
Lastly, "a bit too sure that they are saved"??? You mean the blessed assurance that comes from the holy spirit that makes us sure??? Well, yes. I am guilty of having been assured that I belong to God. However, first, I am not, nor do I try to be. This again shows that you let a lot of the conversation slip through your fingers. I am nothing without God. Nothing without his instruction. When I told James, he scoffed at my lack of understanding of being made in God's image; something about me being powerless and without KOH, or som'n like that.
So, you did not follow the conversation, yet, you perceive what Jach was talking about??? Great faith! in...???James is pretty consistent, I think he's referring to what Paul said about the law leading to death because you could never really follow it and therefore you would always sin and die. He also said that in Christ all things become new and we are no longer under the law.
Paul was on one side of a schism that started very early in the Christian church and is still going on today. Peter was on the other side. At that time, the Peter side believed that Jesus came to the Jews only and that every Christian should still observe all of the Jewish traditions and laws. Paul, the disciple to the gentiles, thought that Jesus had come to bring a whole new idea of God built on the foundations of Judaism but not continuing it. He saw that God is everyone's Father. He felt we needed "new skins for new wine" and so his followers didn't observe all of the rites of the Jews.
Peter eventually came around but he never seems to have quite shaken the idea of sin, ritual and tradition as is still evident in his church, the Catholic church, today, with promises of heaven and threats of hell.
Paul's idea basically was that if you have the Christ in your heart you don't need a whole bunch of rules because you'll want to do the right thing because it is the right thing not because you think you'll be rewarded if you do or punished if you don't.
I think you agree with this line of reasoning and so in essence agree with James. I don't want to play peacemaker between you because it's not my place. I will only say I think you are selling each other short, that's all. Oh and I have to confess I did go back and read the other posts...tsk, tsk you two.It seems to me that James and I are on opposite sides of something. His words do not sound like they match up with what is written in scripture. We do not need the bible seems off-putting because he got that idea from where? The bible? The bible states that if we study for ourselves, we wont be fooled. What is it that we are admonished to study? Another point is he repeats loudly that there are no laws or commands. Jesus, however, stated that we should follow the commands he gave. Do we listen to Jesus or John? Are they not opposite views? I understand your explanation of not needing laws because the love of God makes you do "right" anyway. That is biblical. But there are no commands, is just an OPPOSITE view. This view says put down your bibles, children if God; you don't need that historical account of what that Jesus says; listen to your own hearts; lean unto your own understanding; god is in you as he was even in the garden when you were swayed to do opposite of what God instructed. To me, it is OPPOSITE of what Jesus came to teach. But, I remember that his main argument has been the KOH is in you, you don't need the bible stuffs. The bible says study to show thyself apporoved. Who do we listen to? Jesus??? Or James??? They aint sayin the same things.
I understand, I love the bible like you do and wouldn't want to go a day without it. I concede however that not everyone might. For instance the Book of Mormon has a very positive and inspiring message for millions of people but to be honest, I've read it and it had absolutely no meaning for me at all.
What I mean is that we all have to find what sings to us. For you and me it's the gospel that consoles us and lifts us up. I can't really put my finger on why, because I don't really care for all the politics and gossip that seems to permeate most churches. I think if there's one place that sort of thing doesn't belong it's in a place of worship of the Almighty. That said, I don't condemn anyone who goes to church or diminish the fantastic good it does a lot of people.
As you've already read, I'm sure, I'm interested in what James is talking about or any information relative to the subject but it doesn't mean that I would ever not love the bible just as much. God is vast and marvelous and many greater then me have and are seeking him with all their heart. I think all of those, whom I know so few of, are the true members of my church whatever leads them to it. "Who are my mother and my brothers?...".I don't condemn anyone as well. My voice speaks, and my fingers type what sings to me. Biblical scripture is not something I sit and study turning pages. I generally meditate on that that I already know from past study. If I have a question, I go to the book. My existence is "sweet". I love the love within me and it grows continuously.
I, as well, am not interested in "church" politics and the other junk that takes place in many of them. I seek God daily on my own. I cannot limit our relationship to just one day. I speak to others about what I "find" so that I may constantly check the validity of my thoughts. Since my thoughts have aligned to biblical scripture and all that Jesus said, I rarely find that I am mistaken in my view. I only pray regularly that my "self" is barred from getting in the way of communion with God. I want his will to be most prevalent. I know his will is best.
I talk to James because he "sings" to me as well. I cannot understand his posts most times because they actually fly over my head. But the basics of his sermons make me cringe. If I talk to him for 24 hours straight, and I believe I may have, I still am baffeled by most of his sentences and the ones I do understand are opposite of my views most often. We talk, but we don't agree. We can't. Nothing personal. I think he may be great fun to "chill" with. But our views are not the same at all.See, that's what I thought, you seek God for his own sake and love Him purely. I think you are wise to search the deeper things gently. For some faith is enough but for us, I think including James, we have to look into the deeper, some might say mystical, things of Gods nature.
Phrases like John's "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....." that begin his gospel. These things cause us to ponder and consider and wonder, right? I say you are wise because as mystics it's very easy to step right off the edge of reality. I've seen it happen many times. But if we are careful and probe with only an open heart and respect, not jumping to conclusions or throttling the throat of truth, we can get far. In the end our reason, logic and arguments will fail because the answers can't come from us, they have to come from God Himself. He has to open our consciousness to understand Him. If we grasp that we will advance, at least that's what I'm trying to doYes, I think that searching for the "deeper" meaning is the thing that gets us into trouble. We may not "lean to our own understanding". We don't have the "big" picture at our disposal. God does. Faith, helps us to know that there is no need to try to find out "everything". Our brains, our eyes, our ears and our hearts can only fathom so much. Faith, the size of a mustard seed is what it takes. Remember the guy next to Jesus on the cross? He did not "live for God" probably even one day. He deserved his punishment. He accompanied Jesus to "paradise" because he earnestly believed the message. Given time, he would have been able to act on that faith. Jesus read the man's heart and accepted him. It was not made clear if the man even KNEW the "law" of God. Faith was his ticket into God's kingdom.
Of all the "knowing" we can accomplish, there will always be a LOT we don't know.
Faith covers despite ignorance
Hi James it's good to see you too.
Don't let me put words in your mouth, if I'm off base let me know.Not at all.
I ventured to give up explaining because it was not getting through. Just block, deflect, block deflect. But, my stance remains, there are no more rules. Rule involve sin, which involves judgment which involves condemnation and conviction for indulging good-evil {reason}. The only remaining thing humans need do is overcome the effect of sin which is death. The only way to achieve that is 100% by the in-dwelling Spirit. The mind cannot, the body cannot, the bible cannot instruct the things of the spirit nor can it, in any way, confirm the instruction of the spirit. The confirmation is the transformation itself.
James.I'm very interested in what you are talking about. It sounds gnostic in origin. I'm familiar with those writings or is it something else?
Many of the gnostic writings contain some of this, yes.
From the present biblical perspective, it is exactly what Moshiach speaks about often.
Many may not be aware, but his 'mission' was multifaceted.
First was to restore the ruach often called Spirit, Anointing, KOH, the Word. This, we understand, is the indwelling of Creator, as it was with Adam. Next was to reverse the effect of the Adamic Inception, known the world over as Reason --or good-evil knowledge. Again, Wisdom divided is Reason. Adam exchanged Wisdom [ philos ] for Reason and caused the separation, loss of Anointing -also called the covering. To which he became effected by the natural environment, as every other creature is, and ended in death. In addition to this reversal includes the Babel effect, the blood Atonement for Abel and such. Third was the fulfillment of all prophecy -as all prophecy was about him and the Will/Testimony of Creator, who desired to restore humanity to that original form and enact what He had planned for man since his creation. Fourth was the fulfillment of the Law and all its parts, leaving no element available or remaining incomplete. Again, the Law [of Sin and Death] came because humans were mad-insane, stubborn, fixed on traditions and falling further into Reason, with every passing moment. As mentioned once before: the Law was so rigid, so unbending, what more fitting group of people to use as an example than the Hebrews who were as unbending, rigid and stiff necked as any culture could be. the law enslaved them, broke their backs, their ancestors, caused them grief, suffering, anguish, made enemies and ultimately killed every single one. Even with the weight and excessive burden the Law brought, they added even more weight and burden to it, thinking somehow it would make them right in the head and in the heart. But it could not. So, Moshiach completed every nook-and-cranny of the Law and removed the burden of it completely. Of course we know rules only come from the law and since the law was left without room to move or judge, it became powerless and infective in the face of Truth -again, the ruach. The law vanishes when the Spirit comes, as Moshiach testified, because the Spirit cannot be judged nor ruled by Reason. Reason is to serve the spirit, not the other way around. Thus, the saying: those who enter the KOH do so first by birth of woman {water} then by birth of Spirit ruach. Lastly, having completed the righteousness {unified Trees of Life Immortal and Wisdom}, the reversal of the Inception, the blood atonement, the prophecies, the lawful necessity went one step further. Not only did the Spirit -Creator Himself- lift him up from the grave, destroying the Pit and releasing the dead, but also swallowed up that effect and brought to the Father many immortals. This then means everything prior was sealed forever. Done, finished. Never again would such events occur, as no man would have necessity of laws or rules to govern him. What remains now is the effect of Reason in those who Choose. In Choosing, in Reasoning, they cannot even consider or dare enter the KOH, as before, going to and fro amidst the fiery stones -going in and out of the Consciousness of Life/the Presence as many did throughout history -let alone achieve immortality. They are already dead, cut off. Works no longer exist to provide an outlet for them, as they did under the Law { be them works by sensational or by technological discovery}. In short, the law is moot, even if it is adhered to. This is why he said, there is only two options: Life or death. That ruach which is the Breath of Life, the Word of Creator, is now written, sewn, woven into the human spirit. So, it is now Spirit~spirit.
In my own words, man is simply suffering from acute amnesia. It is 100% curable, as exemplified by Moshaich. Everything man is will immediately be brought to his remembrance and cause that transformation to happen. That Anointing, that indwelling once more consumes him. Over centuries humans have tried various avenues from Buddhism to Yoga, hypnosis to transcendental meditation, every kind of science and sensation. But these outlets are of the mind and not the leading of the Spirit. Neither is textual adherence able -as we saw with the Hebrews over many centuries- and more recently in Christianity and even Islam. Modern society is now using Secrets, Laws of Attraction or Positive Thinking as avenues. All of these methods are entertaining, arguable, profitable yet fruitless. Man is not getting the message -the good news: he is free 100% from everything that limits him because the One who made him had this desire from the beginning and accomplished what He set out to do. There is no more fear or need to hide behind trees -be them actual trees or ones ground down and pressed into ultra-thin streets, dotted with vegetable ink, wrapped in leather binding.
Once people become aware of this, the transformation begins -the seed begins to grow. I joke often, but it is true, running faster than chariots, walking on water, healing limbs, curing sicknesses is but a drop of that ruach given to every human being who graciously accepts it, as graciously it was given to them. There is so much more to man than he realizes or accepts. The ego caused the problem and ego is what keeps man from becoming the reflection of Creator. The first reaction by the human ego, for indulging the threads of light in his head, was fear. And with fear came the notion of revenge, of judgment for his actions. With that came the murderous mentality because death was far better than madness, as man knew he was doing to die. To stave off death man claimed rules to govern, in hopes of 'getting a grip' on the madness until hope was consumed by love. And simply by practical faith -a mentality beyond rules, beyond believing/disbelieving- a mentality of acceptance of this gracious gift- he is transformed once more into that image, that likeness. The elements of mortality -rules, laws, choices, necessities, limitations, fears, hopes, doubts, concerns, etc vaporize and everything forgotten comes rushing back into him -that ruach comes rushing in and turns him into that immortal, that beloved above all creation. That is what salvation actually is.
James.Oh James...
"but it is true, running faster than chariots, walking on water, healing limbs, curing sicknesses is but a drop of that ruach given to every human being who graciously accepts it,"
When you or anyone is able to do those things let me know and show me the way, but until then it's all dribble.There are many records of human abilities, even without Hebrew history to coincide with these things. Many cultures have these mentions. Even still, I would ask you not to be equally lazy, like most humans and show it yourself verses waiting for a "sign or wonder" or "someone else to show you". Only you know what you are capable of. And if you do not remember those abilities, then perhaps it is time to cure that amnesia, and accept those abilities with some dignity, some reality and certainly some grace.
James.You seem to no little about humans. Of the 7 billion people alive today none can do those things. There are and were magicians that trick people with illusions. One of the things that make humans adaptable is that we are born with very little knowledge. We know how to breath and eat and poo. We take 24 years to fully develop and in that time we gain knowledge and adapt our brain for what it will be used for. Our brains do not contain any hidden information. If it did it would be a wast of brain matter. None of the 7 billion people alive today can do the things you suggest. None, Not one. This make you wrong. Unless you find one. I'll wait.
No, no - he can do these things.
Just wait - he will show you soon. Within 4-5 years or so.
Unless he has another kid.
LAWL!Can you explain that acronym: LAWL. I still do not get it...
It just mean LOL, but not actually laughing. LOL with sarcasm.
LOL on steroids.
I am surprised your majikal powers did not allow you to grasp that. Good to see you {fighting|discussing|teaching|evangelizing|condescending to} the other religionists about who has the majik correct. We all enjoy that. In a previous age and in person, this would have been a discussion at sword point by now.
Except she is female and that would have meant a burning.
The female of the species is apparently very, very good at denial. More so than the male it seems - why did {moshiarch|raoch|creator|g-od} make evolution develop them that way?
And please stop calling me lazy or intellectually dishonest or whichever personal attack is de riguer today. Odd you think that anyone who does not believe your outrageous claims has not {explored|investigated|tested} them for themselves.
There are quite a few throughout history who have 'tapped into' these abilities and especially the 'hidden' information in their brains. Although the results have been skewed, it does not lesson the existence of them. What belittles is how these things have been represented -be it by technological or sensationalistic methods. Again, neither being incorrect, just incorrectly expressed.
As said, many today are using odd avenues to reach this point. Some use medicine, others mechanics, still others use positive thinking or pseudo meditation. Are they wrong for trying? Certainly not. Are they wrong for accepting these applications as the way. Most definitely. The collective applications of Reason -science or sensation {both religious in nature} -is nothing less than man spinning is immortal wheels, getting nowhere fast.
And again, I am not suggesting you believe or disbelieve me. I am asking you be intellectually honest and do the work yourself, versus the 7 billion others waiting for another to do it for them; waiting for another 'miracle' pill, potion, prosthetic or prophet.
Religion: be it mechanical {scientific} or sensational {theistic by title} is what is wrong. Seven billion zombies feeding off the same food as the others, all driven by their own madness. A madness, an amnesia that will kill each and every one of them who continue to remain that way. I have yet to discover any such necessity or universal demand that humans should be ill, be without ability, be less than what they were fashioned to be. Sadly, the human ego -their own consciousness {self or universal} is hindering them.
Although not surprised by the reactions from the many, am still curious as to why humans think so little of themselves that they must go to such extremes as to create religions, mechanics and such yet despise the very things they have made to numb the effects of this limited mentality....
James.James, so you think I should spend my time trying to walk on water and grow back limbs? And you think me lazy for not trying? Nobody has ever done those things James. There are more people alive today then ever lived and none can do those things.
I do not see the relevance of 'more people' leading to 'more proof' of human ability.
Quite the opposite, actually.
Do I think you mad for not trying? No. I think you are -no disrespect intended- as equally naive, deceived and blinded by your own ego as every other human. Humans are lazier then ever. Not only spiritually lazy -relying on gods and texts and woo-woo-la-la, but intellectually lazy relying on mechanics or history -even the work of others and most definitely the aforementioned "P4". Some might confuse my words and call it a lack of faith. But it is not a lack of faith, it is a genuine lack of practical application. Even to the point of thinking. Practical Philos is void of traditional Reason {generally accepted method of thinking}. Reason involves dispute, choice, decision which means man believes he is inept, yet knows he carries in him that information --and is able to both do and understand every item in creation from flea to pheromone. In short, his ego is leading him like a carrot does a donkey, right off a cliff.
Apart from this, in all honesty, humans today are supposedly more informed, yet less able; much more tuned into being busy for the sake of being busy or 'biding time'. They are acutely aware of their distractions and make every effort to remain this way. Pick your poison, the saying goes.
But, yes, if humanity focused for a moment and allowed their natural nature to shine through, it would certainly change their perspective and ultimately their direction. Call it what you prefer: evolution, salvation, consciousness -it points to something greater the human is versus the accepted perception.
Is it really that 'far out' or beyond conception to consider human ability? If so, then I am the one who is happily deluded, brilliantly mad {which I have been called on several occasions}.
James.
EDIT 4:56pm
I also want to reiterate my non-apology for considering you -and every human- more than what they have believed/disbelieved, been taught or forced to accept/dismiss.Okay, I'll give it a try. But I'm going to start with the hard stuff like flying. There must be a bridge around here.. oh yes I know just the one. I'll be right back to tell you how it went.
Our natural nature is to be small-group primates living as hunter-gatherers. I see that "natural nature" shining through every single day in every newspaper headline. Sure, we may be a bit more sophisticated with our agriculture and language and religion, but we're still the same animal that descended from the trees.
LAWL!
Come on n do it, because for 4 years you sed u can n u dint.And to you as well...
Even still, I would ask you not to be equally lazy, like most humans and show it yourself verses waiting for a "sign or wonder" or "someone else to show you". Only you know what you are capable of. And if you do not remember those abilities, then perhaps it is time to cure that amnesia, and accept those abilities with some dignity, some reality and certainly some grace.
A lazy man is worth his own wages, Marcus. How much are your extensive, in-depth, empirical {or even esoteric} wages worth? Death is the preference of a madman. Joy is the ineffable result of practical consideration -and application- of the possibilities.
James.LAWL! again Jim Bob.
Come on - do it like wot u sed Mosihiarch Sed .
Intellectual dishonesty? I think so. Yes indeedy - You theists cause a lot of fights.
If only you could put your money where your mouth is. But - you cannot.
Oh well.
- ahorsebackposted 12 years ago0
Gensea, You rock girl ! Whatever you do don't fret over these who merely try to antagonize true believers of faith . Thats all they are here for !
Yes!!! It is our father "rocking"!
he promised that all will be exposed to truth, no matter the decision they make. Sweat the SMALL stuff??? Never. The battle has been won already. Everyone needs to know. God will not let this exchange be tarnished by foolishness. He wants all of his children. Where there are two or three gathered in his name, and I believe we have many more here, he will join. I am not sure of his username but he is here. I am grateful.
When Jesus find his disciples sleeping He said to them "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak." I think Jesus took James, Peter and John along with Him to pray at Gethsemane.
He took a few disciples with him. But the bible does make mention of the fact that he left them to pray. Is it significant? Probably not. This discussion stemmed from loud prayers shouted into microphones to a debate on pray alone vs communally. this is arguing over words. I understand how it happens. One thing leads to another. But the most important thing is?
@iam he is talking about god not someone who believed that he was son of god or god himself...
ahhh every time i look back on this forum . the question post cracks me up. lol .
A long, long time ago...
I can still remember
How that music used to make me smile.
And I knew if I had my chance
That I could make those people dance
And, maybe, they’d be happy for a while.
This non-having TV is interesting.- genaeaposted 12 years ago0
darkland,
Also... John really did give us a mystery with that one, right??? A lot of people say that the script refers to Jesus. Being with God, as the word, in thebeginning. As I pondered and asked for the big revalation, it was brought to my attention that it really does not matter what John meant. Will it help my brother today, to know who/what was with God in the void? I remember being five in the back seat of my parents' car. When I asked, "Where we going?" My dad always blurted out a big, "Just ride!!" When I asked, "Can I have a dollar?" I often heard, "i don't have it" then we'd go to the gas station or something. What Daddy meant was, "I don't have it for YOU" but I could not dare ask to check his pockets. I just had to take his word.I've never thought about the thieves on the gibbet with Jesus, very interesting.
Paul says that God made different vessels for different purposes. I think for some faith is perfectly acceptable. Certainly, you have a point when you say we can't ever know everything. On the other hand I think it is not enough for everyone.
In some cases that belief makes people lazy. They believe they've been baptized or whatever and they don't have to stay true or do anything more, except maybe go to church. While their hearts my be filled with greed, lust and evil of any kind. These are like the pharisee's or hypocrites and are very detrimental to the Word. They are the ones cited by the non-believers as what represents Christianity but has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
Then there are those who simply can't be content with faith alone. They need to explore and ponder. When these people are told that faith is enough and you only need to believe, they either lose interest or become antagonistic...or sometimes they just continue on.
I hear a secret song in the bible, like a vast symphony. In this concert some will yawn and doze, some will listen, enjoy and go back to there daily lives little changed. But a few will love it, be inspire by it and yearn to understand it. I don't think God really rejects any of these, he has opened our hearts to what we can receive, that's all.Faith without works is dead. This work, to me, is displayed evidence of faith. Making steps to take on God's character. The people are being admonished (not forced) to study the words for themselves with good intentions to "hear" it. The bible says that faith is what makes us acceptable. If they study, as I, they find out for themselves. No mysteries exist. He gave different ones different gifts/abilities to work on the same purpose. His sheep are going one way.
Questions: do you have children? If so, do they check your "every" move? Or do they trust you as parent, to run your household? Do they need to see receipts for mortgage/rent payment? Do they probe your bank account to ensure that you spend wisely? Did you need their approval in choosing your home...their other parent? Did you have to show them proof that you had a hand in their birth?
God is my father. Some questions are just not necessary. "Love God" today. "Love your brother as you love yourself" today. History becomes so unnecessary in that sense. Questioning God is good. Not believing his response, not so good.I hear you sister, no my kids don't question everything because they aren't ready to understand it yet. I support them because they are still learning the basics but I'm also here when they do want to know and I nudge them into developing the skills they will need to better understand and work in the world they inherit. In other words I make the knowledge available is they can learn it as they develop toward that point. The analogy is a good one.
Some aspects of your life/finance you will never discuss with them
God is "Dad". He aint tellin us how much money he has. Okokok... Just kidding. That is just how I think of it sometimes. It is just that our questions sometimes sound cynical. God is not a defendant on trial. Interrogate??? I think faith just trusts. Not lazily. The things we don't understand are just not so important sometimes. We are sometimes trying to find a reason NOT to trust. God hides from those LOOKING to not trust. Now how would I feel if my child didn't TRUST me to lead?That I absolutely have to agree with, "none but the true in heart shall see God". I try very hard not to be the annoying brat that keeps asking "why....why....why".
If you're looking for a reason not to believe there's usually a reason, like there's something in your life you should be ashamed of. Problem there is the shame will just grow and grow until you can get with God and honestly repent. At least that's so for me. It's amazing what I can find out about myself when I sit down with God and honestly ask to be shown. It's not always what I want to see, though, unfortunetly
As for kind words, I agree, we aren't threatened here, we're just chillin' and chattin' nothing to it.Yess!!! He peels the layers, right?
a relationship with God is bourne from faith. You cant commune with one you don't believe exists. The relationship is so revealing, right??? Shame leaves us with such a horrible feeling, right? Especially before God. No condemnation though. All fall short.
We feel the same way!!! oh! And I love chillin'
So fathers threaten their children with eternal lakes of fire if they don't worship and obey them?
The impassioned denials indicate that someone is seeking. otherwise, why stress out about how us dumb Christians believe in our made up God. That is a good thing. Seek and ye shall find!
well said and very true. Mostly they aren't against the idea of God or what Christianity stands for, have you noticed, it's usually just complaining about the people who practice it.
I have noticed a complaint about all of it. From the inaccuracy of the bible, to the position of Jesus, to the laws. The people who follow get ridiculous too. It is just that the complaints come from all directions. The people who follow are tangible targets.
It seems "atheists" is an umbrella that covers anti-Christianity for a myriad of reasons. If people don't belieave Islam or Jehovah's Witness, are they considered atheists also.
God is solely responsible for answers to those questions. I always remember that God knows who needs what. I often fantasize that he made all religions. To whom he gave Islam, or Christianity, or Buddhism, or even Mormanism, he expects one to follow what he was given. God is multi- everything, it is not so hard to wrap my brain around. Maybe different people, in different climates, or different surroundings needed different ideals??? Or maybe he wanted to see the variety or see how we would accept one another. Just thoughts. We are not allowed to judge. Period. I cannot say for certain that "they" are wrong. Maybe they were given their ideas. Not so hard to fathom for me. I just know for certain, the life that I was given to lead. I don't know the full reason why I was told not to judge. I just know that I was told NOT to.
I'd rather have this life than any other.It's true that we are not supposed to judge who will make it into Heaven, that is for God alone. But we are to judge rightly, and people who are practicing religions that redefine Jesus or exclude Him altogether have not been given this from God. God gave us the way and He gave us the means to understand, or at least know, what He wants. It's the Bible.
I agree that God gave me what he wanted me to have. There are some who walk based upon what they firmly believe. God reads the heart, not the actions. Jesus on the cross said, forgive them. Does that mean that the accusers will be accepted simply because they "knew not what they were doing?" I am firmly established "just like a tree planted by the waters"
I cannot say though that God in his infinite wisdom, is looking at the situation as I. He told me that his thoughts are not my thoughts. Jesus is the way. No man can come to the father otherwise. But God reads the heart. I can't.I agree with you 100%. We cannot know the heart and Jesus did point that out. But He also pointed out that we must follow Him. He said over and over. I feel no joy or smugness when I say it's not enough to "be good" or "walk firmly in what you believe." And it's not for me to judge who will make it into Heaven. Anything can happen. But if I know His word, then it is also not for me to say that it's okay to practice something else.
BTW, the parable of the Sheep and the Goats points out that even we believers need to constantly be on our guard because many of us who think we're getting in will find ourselves unpleasantly surprised. I pray that I'm not one of them.
Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians. Atheism is not an umbrella that covers anti-Chritiantiy. We simply don't believe in any God. It's not an attack on Christianity. It's not an attack on anything.
Sort of. JW's actually don't believe in the Jesus of the Bible. They believe that the Trinity is actually some sort of pagan belief in three gods. They flatly contradict the Bible in many places. Many, many places. They call themselves Christians but they don't really practice Christianity.
True, but the people who follow are also the most visible targets and, when they do things that are not Christian, the most visible reason why it "must be untrue."
I agree. I have said many times that the conversations get so "heated" because of curiosity. An attempt to get to know.
Our responses must in kind words always. A kind word turns away wrath ... eventually!
Yes. Unfortunately the friendliness of my words cannot be heard. I do hate that.
Yes, lots of that hate going round with believers whose words cannot be heard. We hope someday believers might shed their hatreds, but that would mean their God would have to shed His hatreds, first.
I dont know if God (which ever of the 3,000 Gods there are in world history) knows everything, but I do know the Christian God is evil. He asks his followers to commit genocide, murder and rape. He is a jealous God and is the great dictator in the sky. He destroys our individuality, free will and deepest integrity. Really, if someone decides to receive their morals from the teachings of the Bible then I suggest giving that person a wide berth. A more immoral book I have not read.
"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone slew a person unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if anyone saved a life it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear Signs yet even after that many of them continued to commit excesses in the land" (surah maida 32)
"O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take [back] part of what you gave them unless they commit a clear immorality. And live with them in kindness. For if you dislike them - perhaps you dislike a thing and Allah makes therein much good."(nisa 19)
If evolution is true, why are there still fish? Why are their still monkeys? Why are there not fish/monkey/people at various stages of evolution?
Hmmm.
I'm not a scientist, but I'll take a stab at this one.
Perhaps it's because humanity has evolved to the point where we are able to sustain our race on our own. It is no longer naturally necessary for human beings to evolve from anything.
That's my uneducated guess.It's simple. Evolution is the result of mutations that perfectly serve our environment. Apes and humans share a common ancestor but we are not directly descendent from say chimps. Chimpanzees went into say a jungle and they developed differently to adapt to their environment. A chimps body is for example better suited to the jungle than ours. On the other hand we moved to the savannah where the long grass encouraged us to stand and where different diet and circumstances led to a different evolutionary path. Most animals are still evolving but not into people, take a shark for example, it wouldn't help a shark at all to be evolving to be more like a human. There are still fish because fish are well suited to their environment and they will continue to evolve to be better suited to it.
It's simple and no mystery at all. Not only is this presumed but it can clearly be tracked through our genome how we evolved differently to chimps from a common ancestor for example.Evolution is true. It is observable. It has been observed. The issues do not lie with the concept of evolution, that is fact in most peoples books. The issue lies with the idea of common ancestry.
This is very interested. I have read at least 3 explanations on evolution that are different and that I haven't heard before. It sound like all atheists do not believe the same thing. Do atheists believe whatever they want as long as it is not belief in God.
Evolution is not a matter of belief. It is fact that living things evolve over time. The theory is that natural selection is the driver of this evolution and that all living things share a common ancestor. This theory is overwhelmingly supported by the data, and you do not have to be atheist to accept it - you just need to be intelligent.
The fact that you've seen three different explanations of evolution is not surprising - people use different approaches to explain the world around us. Some use examples, others use analogies, others use math and logic. All different ways of describing the same thing.Atheism is only the belief that God does not exist. Any beliefs outside of that are unique to each individual. Atheism only describes a disbelief in God.
Perhaps, atheism can also be viewed as an understanding in the same way defying gravity by flapping ones arms and flying.
Person A makes a positive and extraordinary claim about reality. Person B asks for evidence to support the claim. Person A has no evidence. Person B understands this and concludes the claims aren't valid and can't be considered such until evidence is provided.
Does that make Person B an atheist if Person A claims are about God?
What belief is Person B holding?
What issues of common ancestry, exactly?
I am going to be completely honest with you tm. I don't particularly like discussing with you. I find it very frustrating and I am not even going to bother answering your question. Most of your comments seem to be aimed at ridicule and not much more, and when they are not ridiculing they are seemingly uninformed (this is just my opinion, I am not saying that it is true).
If you want to know what issues I am talking about then Google it. Look into the age of the Earth, the stages the Earth went through and the stages the LUCA went through. Then look at the formation of DNA. Perhaps you will see what issues I take with common ancestry. Perhaps you will not. I don't really care.
If you actually care about the response you will research it, personally I think you care more about poking fun, which is fine, but I am not game today.I have researched this topic for a hub I wrote a few months ago on LUCA. I didn't find anything troubling for the theory of common ancestry, though there is plenty of difficulty in determining exactly what LUCA's genome would have been due to gene-swapping. However, the fact that all life shares so many of the same highly-conserved genes is overwhelming evidence that we all share one ancestor.
But, I already understand those topics of which you refer and have never found any issues with common ancestry.
If you believe you're being ridiculed, perhaps it's because you state ridiculous claims and then have no explanation, rebuttal or refutation to support your claims, then go on making those same claims, notwithstanding.
The life, death, life of Jesus was observed. The words he spoke, observed. Still lots of people either don't believe it or choose to squander the knowledge if it. Faith, again, and again, and again is key. Whose account do you accept? Where is your belief on the matter? What "rings" true for you? Ideas emerge; feelings change. But one thing is sure! We are here! I think
I agree with you about Jesus. I am a Christian for a reason. I don't know what you mean by whose account I accept. I believe in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. I believe in evolution. I read my Bible very carefully and I don't see anywhere where these two beliefs cannot work together.
That's a contradiction. Jesus was not observed, there is no evidence to support that claim no matter how much it "rings" true or where ones beliefs are on the matter.
Yes, faith is the key, but faith does not define reality.I have many accounts that Jesus was observed. His presence is not only mentioned in the bible. Even non-Christians know and have claims about him. To say you don't believe it does not negate any fact. You just don't believe it. See where your "faith" lies???
You have no more accounts than anyone else. None are valid.
And, that is the only place He is mentioned.
Such as?
What facts?
That's because my worldview does not rely on faith, it relies on reality.You are darn-near impo...sssssible! But not impossible
The words you speak are so combative. You an ex Marine?
You say my accounts are not valid because you have never experienced them. That's ok with me. But your argument then becomes, "no you haven't???" Now that, to me, should have come with one of your teethy grins. You bust my sides!!!
You have never experienced the workings of a molecule, have you? Have you experienced evolution? Or seen, with your own eyes, the sunrise in Tibet? You believe, i mean have, "valid" proof of what??? You believe what you have been told by those who think they know. You believe THEM as well, have FAITH in their work. But if any of their equipment or formulas are off a hair, the info changes sometimes dramatically, and trickles. See??? Today's scientific fact, is tomorrow's "correction".They are not valid because they're personal experiences and could just as easily be the result of any number of mental disorders.
No, it becomes more along the lines that you are simply being dishonest, which many have pointed out to you already.
Your continued use of logical fallacies and dishonesty to support your beliefs is getting tiresome. It's clear you know very little about science works, so it only makes you look extremely foolish when you comment on it.Well, I think that you look extremely foolish for believing that YOU know how science works. Fallacy? Dishonesty?
So you have "worked" a molecule??? You have "experienced" evolution??? Mental illness??? Answer the questions. Show me YOUR "validities". I need to know how you came up with your facts too. Please write your formulas on your prescription pad, scan and email them to me.
I need the real TRUTH now. I been w/o proof all my life. Prove to me your claims.
The problem also lies with missing links. There are still too many holes in the timeline.
There are no holes in the timeline. You've been told about missing links to mislead you.
Okay, but even if that's true, I haven't been told where I can find the linkage. What I've been told by someone who is not, as far as I know, a scientist but who is very, very bright and a strong believer in evolution is that current theory points to shared dna types and blood lines to prove it. But that there are still missing links, it's only a matter of time until we find them.
That's a silly objection. There will always be holes in the fossil record. Every new "missing link" found creates two new holes in the timeline that need to be filled by new "missing links." It's a never-ending cycle that does not pose a problem for evolution. The theory of evolution is validated without a single fossil.
Okay, but is that because it's self-evident and I'm simply not bright enough to get it? Or is it that evolution is not sufficiently explained to Joe Sixpack? Because it's not, if you're correct. It's one thing to say that something is a silly objection (thereby implying that if the person making the objection were simply a "more serious person" which usually means smarter, they wouldn't be making that objection) and it's another thing to show why the objection is supposed to be so silly. I've talked with a lot of very smart, very serious people who have as yet to check off box b.
We ARE looking at fish, monkeys and people at their particular stage of evolution.
Do you mind me asking a question? And please understand I mean no harm with this question.
Have you not studied Evolution in school? It appears from your question you have no understanding of evolution at all. So I'm just wondering when and where you went to school and if you were ever taught evolution or were you taught something else?That is the very question I used to ask!!!
so puzzling. But Im sure that evolutionists have an answer. However, I don't think that there is a physical description of the first couple so speculation is necessary to answer that question on all accounts. But, is it imperative info??? Dont think so.An example, although not a very good one is poodles. A poodle is descended from a wolf. Yet they both currently exist. As well as many forms in between.
Just because some members of a species evolved (or in my example was bred a certain way) doesn't mean all members will adapt and evolve in the same manner. If a an animal is exposed to a hot climate, and another of the same kind a cold climate, if they survive they gradually adapt to their given environments.
I hope I am explaining this well...Sounds good to me. But, how does evolution really matter??? The bible speaks of giants created, i think, from descendants of angels who "came down" for love of the beautiful women here??? If i get that correctly. Who are their descendants? Does it matter?
Without evolution, nothing in biology makes any sense.
If you want a more practical example, how about multi-drug resisyant tuberculosis? Or herbicide-resistant weeds? Or pesticide-resistant pests? Understanding how nature adapts and evolves is fundamental for our survival.
Also the changes between generations are so minor they would not easily be recognized.
I do love this question. Fish and Monkeys are still here because they are successful. Humans did not evolve from monkey, we evolved along side them. If you need proof of evolution just look at your hand. um, well looking at your picture you may want to look at many hands. You will notice that Europeans or people of Europeans decent have lighter skin. I asked myself the question of why a while back. It seems to me that dark skin clearly has an advantage. But why would Europeans (who came from Africa) have lighter skin? What advantage would lighter skin have that would necessitate the evolution of lighter skin? The answer lies in Vitamin D. When people with darker skin moved out of Africa they became sick for lack of vitamin D. When people were born with slightly lighter skin they were stronger and more able to pass on the gene of lighter skin. Thus eventually you have the the people of Northern Europe with very light skin. Humans evolved to survive in the north. The very fact that we are all different and that difference helps us survive a particular climate is absolute proof of Evolution.
Doesn't most of the world have 4 seasons? Hmmm. I guess here, Arizona is hot and desert, most of the time, i think. Do mostly dark skinned people live there?
Lighter skin is prone to disease from the rays of the sun. Right? The sun somewhat "cooks" the skin. Darkens. I always find another question when speaking in terms of evolution.
Ms. Trotter, judging from your picture, your skin is BEAUTIFUL!!! And much less likely to be diseased by sunrays. Original is always good. evolution made God's creation different.Well move to the far north and see what happens without taking vitamin D pills. Rickets is the first thing that will happen. Weak bones that get hurt easily or fractured regularly are one of the biggest effects vitamin D deficiency causes.
I do agree dark skin is beautiful. I wish I had darker skin, but my ancestors are from the north.Lack of sunlight only affects darker skin tones??? They make vitamin D in a pill form and it comes from the foods that we eat. I think that lack of sun light affects all, right?
No no no. Dark skin produces vitamin D at a much slower rate than light skin. Bring a dark skinned person to the north without supplemental vitamin D and they will develop Rickets faster than the light skinned person. That is the only advantage of light skin. That's why people of the north evolved to have light skin. It certainly doesn't look better does it? Sure it's easy not to get supplements now but imagine thousands of years ago. I wasn't even long ago that they new what causes rickets.
Right. I love the look of Charlize Therron. And Ashley Judd. And Many other lighter skinned people. Dark skinned tones are beautiful as well. Adaptation, or curse; we have different skin tones within the same families most often. That makes skin color a non factor to me.
agreed. There are beautiful people in all shapes, sizes and skin colours. I just wish mine was a few shades darker. LOL.
Calynbana makes my point. Atheism is disbelief in God (period). All of the different personal philosophies beyond that go in millions on directions.
Chris, I agree with you also. The Bibles admonishes Christians about leading others astray. Our profession of faith should be in the way that we live giving glory to God.That would also have to include your disbelief in Allah and Thor and Zeus and... (period).
Hi A Troubled Man, I don't know if I quite understand. So atheist don't believe in Allah and Thor and Zeus. If that is the case, that is at least one thing atheists have in common with Christians!
Yes, Christians are atheists, too. Isn't that just like totally the bomb?
atheism |ˈāTHēˌizəm|
noun
disbelief in the existence of God or gods.
ORIGIN late 16th cent.: from French athéisme, from Greek atheos, from a- ‘without’ + theos ‘god.’Hi Rad Man, so atheists believe in themselves. I hope this doesn't sound sarcastic. I have never had a discussion with atheists before. I have heard people say they were atheists but have not engaged in discussions.
We believe in ourselves? No we simply don't believe in any God. Other than that we are all different.
You're very welcome, but please answer my question from an earlier post. Were you not taught evolution in school? If not when and where did you go to school?
I was indeed taught in 10th grade social studies about neanderthal, cromagnan (sic) and I forget the other type of man. It was a chapter in our social studies book. I attended the infamous Little Rock Central High School.
Thanks dianetrotter, it doesn't sound like you were taught about evolution. There are many who do not believe in evolution, but believe neanderthals lived along side us. You are from the south and that is what I expected. Thanks again for addressing my intrusive question.
I don't know if evolution is really taught very well at all. I don't think I ever heard about evolution in my classes (I am only 22 so it wasn't that long ago that I was high school) and I also live in a big city (Toronto) where you would expect it would be taught. I had to seek out the information myself, just like I did with religious theories. I always wondered why at least the proven evolution was not taught.
Thanks for that. I am also from the Toronto, but I'm much older. I'm interested to know who and when evolution is taught. You should have been taught about evolution in grade school science. I'm going to check with my kids to see if they were taught about in in grade school. I do know it should be taught in high school as well, but most likely not unless you take biology.
Wow Radman!!! Are you from the place I expect???
Well, athiests, agnotics, anti-thiests have their owm personal beliefs but usually we share a common belief in the human race and the earth without the belief in a supernatural being. It is a liberty from the shackles of religion.
So the common belief is evolution? What is the belief about the earth? Again, I'm not asking out of sarcasm. I just want to understand.
No, the common understanding is about evolution, beliefs aren't relevant with science.
The earth was flat, but that belief was discarded when we understood it was spherical.Seems to me, Science changes its mind often. You go from one "belief" to another, in Science. You go from "hey flat world" to "uh, correction" and many, many, many other examples apply. The bible is somewhat static. Yeah, they changed a few words; but the word all agrees. Especially the main tenets. They cannot change the word of God enough to obscure it from anyone who longs to know.
Those who know very little about science make the same false assertions.
Thanks for making my point.
So what? That only demonstrates that facts have no effect on what people have been indoctrinated to believe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
Facts and evidence are relevant with science.
No worries, I understand believers look at everything as a belief, that is why they have little to no understanding of the world around them.
So disbelief in God is a relatively "new" concept?
You should understand it wasn't until fairly recent that people started to say "I believe..." Before then people just went about there business of rituals and such without much thought being given to what the rituals were about. They were just trying to survive. It was when people became righteous that other people said no.
Huh??? Surely Jesus was here "believing" way before the 16th century. I don't understand.
People were just trying to survive. No time to think about existentialism.
No time to think about life after death. No real education so to speak of for that matter. People did the rituals without thought.
Jesus came in what year? He cleared up the ritual stuff then. Though people still get it way wrong, Paul and Peter and the rest spoke about life after death, taught it to others and wrote books for fiture generations about it. We been thinking about life after death at least since then.
Rad Man I don't think people just started saying "I believe." I think the disdain for Christianity has become more open. Example - Chick-Fil-A was started by a Christian years ago. Two months ago, people got upset and started protesting. There was no new information. The "new" was the response. The open hostility to Christianity has been more vocal over the years as people wanted to do their own thing.
RadMan, c'mon, you can't walk on water - only the most wicked man in the Bible, Jesus Christ, can walk on water. Get with it, man!
I'm sorry Brian but why are you on Rad Man's case?
What is your problem with Jesus? You want to believe he is wicked else you would have responded to my explanation of Luke 14:26? Don't you want to clear this up?
Moses ordered people to kill. Isn't that more evil than Jesus preaching about love?Yes, Numbers 31:1-20
Vengeance on Midian
31 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Avenge the people of Israel on the Midianites. Afterward you shall be gathered to your people.” 3 So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the Lord's vengeance on Midian. 4 You shall send a thousand from each of the tribes of Israel to the war.” 5 So there were provided, out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand from each tribe, twelve thousand armed for war. 6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand from each tribe, together with Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, with the vessels of the sanctuary and the trumpets for the alarm in his hand. 7 They warred against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every male. 8 They killed the kings of Midian with the rest of their slain, Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba, the five kings of Midian. And they also killed Balaam the son of Beor with the sword. 9 And the people of Israel took captive the women of Midian and their little ones, and they took as plunder all their cattle, their flocks, and all their goods. 10 All their cities in the places where they lived, and all their encampments, they burned with fire, 11 and took all the spoil and all the plunder, both of man and of beast. 12 Then they brought the captives and the plunder and the spoil to Moses, and to Eleazar the priest, and to the congregation of the people of Israel, at the camp on the plains of Moab by the Jordan at Jericho.
13 Moses and Eleazar the priest and all the chiefs of the congregation went to meet them outside the camp. 14 And Moses was angry with the officers of the army, the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, who had come from service in the war. 15 Moses said to them, “Have you let all the women live? 16 Behold, these, on Balaam's advice, caused the people of Israel to act treacherously against the Lord in the incident of Peor, and so the plague came among the congregation of the Lord. 17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. 18 But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves. 19 Encamp outside the camp seven days. Whoever of you has killed any person and whoever has touched any slain, purify yourselves and your captives on the third day and on the seventh day. 20 You shall purify every garment, every article of skin, all work of goats' hair, and every article of wood.”Wow, what a horribly immoral God the Christian God is. Not only does he command murder but he commands rape (18) from his followers, too. What are we to learn from this totalitarian murderer? I think we learn it is better to not follow his lead. Actually, it has me thinking: God is so clearly evil I wonder if Lucifer, who God expelled from heaven, might be a moral, good man? I mean, it would stand to reason, wouldn't it? God despised Lucifer, afterall.
What are we to learn from these passages? We learn it is not the Christian God for the Father and Jesus are one and they cannot contradict one another. Jesus did not order the stoning of adultresses. He had the utmost of respect for women.
In fact, if you research the literal translation of the OT, it says God is actually the gods. In other words, they were physical beings that ordered the Jews around.
After all, how did Moses communicate with God? Through the clouds?God communicated with Moses through pixie dust - I dont know and it does not matter. What is important is the fact the Christian God is evil and the OT proves it time and time again. Why would any respecitble, moral, loving human being follow like a slave this immoral master?
LOL! Pixie dust...
I think it's interesting that you never refer to the OT God and the Jewish God. What Jesus taught contradicted the "Christian God" in the OT. Surely you can you see that Jesus came to right the wrong perception of God?
If God was like He is depicted in the OT, then I'll prepare myself for hell because hell can't be worse than serving that type of God.What Jesus taught did not contradict God. Jesus, however, did correct the understanding of him for the people of that day. People took the law and added things. They found ways to hold people "hostage" with the ideas they employed. Jesus came to fix the ideas once and for all.
Thanks. It just rolled off my fingers
faith is such a simple concept. People make the choice NOT to believe. These messages are not for them, actually. Once you say no, what more is there to discuss??? Yet...Yet here you are telling us you know something we don't know.
Odd that you go against the Word of God to preach this stuff.
Save me a seat by the fire.I'm telling you that we CHOOSE what we know. We take it in or we don't. That is reasonable, right?
No - that is not reasonable at all. In fact - it makes no sense whatsoever. I know many things I did not choose to know. You CHOOSE to believe nonsense as fact. This is not the same as knowledge.
It's interesting that you say Jesus corrected the understanding of God, which I agree to be true. However, the OT does not condone such correction:
The Word of God according to the fifth book of Moses: “Everything that I command you you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to it or take away from it.”
(Deuteronomy 12:32)
"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you," (Matthew 5:44)
vs
"All enemies shall be killed. But the virgins shall be left alive for the soldiers
A prayer: “O that thou wouldst slay the wicked, O God … I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them as my enemies.”
(Psalm 139:19&22)
Jesus of Nazareth: You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you … ‘If any anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.’”
(Matthew 5:38-39)
vs
“… eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”
(Exodus 21:24)The people did not do as they were instructed. The world needed grace, I mean, Jesus. God is not a man that he should lie. Jesus showed them the law in action.
Huh? So you mean God did not instruct murder and genocide? He did not instruct revenge? So He gave other instructions but was falsely written in the OT that He did?
What the world needed was saving from this monster/s in the OT. Jesus came to show the true God.
There is absolutely no way you can deny the contradictions.God behaved differently in the old testament than he does in the new. Before Christ, there was penalty for sin. The penalty is harsh but deserved according to God. Jesus brought with him a new promise.
God never changes. Even the OT says that.
New International Version (©1984)
"I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.
You don't think there is a penalty of sin now? Those who don't repent will feel the penalty of sin.
So, in your opinion, God was justified in instructing Moses to kill a man gathering wood on the Sabbath but kind of bent the rules for Jesus? In your opinion, God was justified in instructing Moses to instruct people to rape virgins and kill non-virgins and to kill the children? How would you feel if Jesus instructed these thing? God doesn't change and He is one with Jesus. The new covenant was only made after Jesus' death and resurrection. Before, Jesus did not stone adultresses as instructed by God. So He disobeyed God?
Here's a comparison for you. Extremists Muslims believe it is a sin against Allah to blaspheme and insult the Prophet Mohammed. They will kill in retaliation and torture. Is that anything different to the OT God? Is Allah and the God in the OT one and the same?
Please don't assume that everything is true in the OT. The literal translation of the OT says the gods instructed Moses and his people.God did not have to change to extend mercy to those who believe. "Those who don't repent..."
God is always justified. I am not totally for certain if Allah is the same. Muslims have Muhammad. Christians have Jesus. But we aint gon beat nobody up about him.
Please believe what the OT says. It is wrong to have sex with anyone other than your spouse. It is wrong to lie. Killing, stealing, and dishonoring parents; all wrong. and it is wrong to be unloving. God punished harshly for sin in the OT. I am sorry that that hinders your faith. However, if you have faith, write him a stern, secret letter. Cuss if you must (he can take it). You just may get an answer. He will clear it up for you; and you will hardly ever be able to doubt him.God is always justified but who said it is the Father of Jesus in the OT passage I provided? You ought to know God and Allah are not the same. Allah doesn't have a son but God does.
It is also wrong to murder and Moses and friends and God were so guilty of that. It is wrong to steal. Moses and friends enjoyed the spoils of war. Is it not hateful to kill a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath? The Old Testament is full of hate. God could punish us for sin today. Why doesn't He punish the atheists and other believers?
Don't assume it hinders my faith. Jesus' faith was not hindered when He contradicted the Mosaic law.
I don't have to write God a stern letter. It's not like He would write back and say, "Yes, Claire, it is me in the Old Testament and I hate, hate, hate and kill, kill, kill!"
It really upsets when Christians believe that God is capable of the monstrosities in the OT. It is not a God non-believers want to associate themselves with and they cannot be blamed, either.You still consider Jesus changed or contradicted the law? That is wrong. He corrected their thinking about it. Only those who thought that their hate was justified, considered it a change. Only those stuck with their own changes, objected. Yes, God was fierce with the punishment. It is not our job though. He still punishes. The treasures of the wicked are stored up for the righteous. I have witnessed it with my own eyes. Proof??? I doubt it would be enough for you. I am convinced though.
You are not reading what I'm saying. Is it denial or something? I gave you examples where Jesus contradicted the law! The law was to stones adulterers and people understood that perfectly well.
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Jesus tossed that law aside and corrected their way of thinking by saying those who are without sin cast the first stone.
Jesus didn't murder the Gentiles or order their execution:
"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Jesus didn't kill the one who said, "He has the spirit of Beelzebub in Him!" That's blasphemy.
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
God commanding murder of innocent children:
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
I think the Jews understood these laws and punishments very well.
Please do not give me blanket statements. Answer my questions. Is this your God? Is this your loving God who lusts after blood?
And answer these questions you ignored:
Was God justified in instructing Moses to kill a man gathering wood on the Sabbath but kind of bent the rules for Jesus and His disciples? Was justified in instructing Moses to instruct people to rape virgins and kill non-virgins and to kill the children?
Please think! It is not blasphemy to think!You should not be so rapid in bringing a case against the Lord. He is guilty of nothing. You have an idea that the answers you seek should come wrapped in a Claire-approved package. I feel compelled to ask you to seek the Lord for the answers. But I know that would piss you off and have you spitting teeth because yoi are determined to "back me into a corner". However, it cannot happen. My way of escape has been prepared, since before your birth.
Read my response this time. Don't look for "well you got me there" because, you won't get that. But stop "denying" truth. I have answered this question. You don't like the answer.
BEFORE JESUS CAME, THERE WAS A PENALTY FOR SIN. THE PENALTY WAS DEATH. Have you ever heard me say that??? The man gathering wood was being disobedient by working on the sabbath. Jesus came, he was "caught," healing a boy??? on the sabbath. Since the SAVIOR was there, the correction was on the way. The sabbath was made for the people, not the other way around. (he said). God will stop the presses to save one lost sheep, he told the people, in other words. Even on the sabbath!
in the "case" of the adultress, mercy by the people was the more important correction because their hearts had become so excited to "dole out punishments" while at the same time, "hiding" their own sin in their hearts.
Mercy was most important, they would soon need their own because of their own "hidden sins".
Jesus came to show us the LOVE of God. FREE MERCY AND PARDON FOR RHOSE WHO BELIEVE. The penalty of sin is still death! It has not been changed.! Those who have faith, are freed from the penalty.
Are you satisfied? God is justification He needs no "excuse" he is God. He kills the women and children, as he says because the children of Judah were getting ridiculous with the sin. They were thumbing their noses at God despite his warnings. He punished the city for their disobedience to him. He told them what would happen, it happened. They were completely destroyed. But that was the penalty for them then. Once Jesus died, no more death punishments for sin for his OWN children who believe in Jesus. THE PENALTY FOR SIN WAS CHANGED, FOR CHILDREN OF GOD WITH FAITH IN JESUS. NOT THE LAW. THE PENALTY OF DEATH FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE. I hope this helps.Yes, He is guilty of nothing but those who wrote those OT were guilty of lies. You know how heavily influence the OT is by paganism and the occult?
So is there no penalty for sin on earth for those who don't believe in Christ? now Should we go burn down the houses of atheists and kill them? What kind of law forbids wood-gathering? A sick law that can only be made by a tyrant. The bad disciples, how could they have picked the ears of the corn on the Sabbath and how could Jesus JUSTIFY it?
Well, didn't God demand that people dole out punishments for adultery? I'd say to Moses and friends, "You who has no sin cast the first stone" as they were about to kill the wood-gatherer. As for correction, correction is actually contradiction. If God was justified in making those laws in the OT, then Jesus would not have to correct anything for they are one and the same.
Mercy was not important to God in the OT. How merciful was he to women and children who did nothing wrong? Oh yes, God wanted his people to kill with the sin even though Jesus said, "Those who live by the sword, die by the sword."
Here's another example of God's mercy:
Deuteronomy:
7:2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them:
No, I'm not satisfied. I actually felt nauseas. So tell me, does God think a justified method of payment would be the rape of virgins?
I wonder if God killed your own child because he did something wrong, you'd love him as an adoring father. Why should a child have to be killed before the sins of his father?
Anyway, that's enough from me because nothing is going to change your mind about the Old Testament even though it portrays God as despicable.
I think Allah is the alter-ego of God. I mean, they just love blood.
The day the Christian Church rejects this rubbish in the OT, the better. Even Jeremiah recognized the lies:
Jeremiah, Chapter 8, Verse 8 it says this
8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,
for we have the law of the LORD,"
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?Oh wow!!! You have already decided. Nothing I say to you will convince you that you have NO case AGAINST God. You keep bringing up OT punishments as a basis for your argument and you still get it twisted.
I said the law was not changed. The penalty of sin has been removed for those who believe. You are not reading. You are convinced already. Study of the NT words of Jesus clears up all misconception if you believe. Before Jesus, the penalty for working or wood gathering, was death. The corn gathering, I think, was because Jesus' followers were hungry and travelling. Jesus let them eat. God had a purpose for all of the law. His children were to be going in one direction. Doing the same things. It (the law) was not meant to be a noose.
Before Jesus, the penalty of sin was death for everyone. After Jesus came, no death penalty for those who believe. Before Jesus, what you DID set you apart from the world. After Jesus, FAITH in him sets you apart. Go kill atheists??? No, Jesus did not do that. He did no killing, though he could have. God made the law, Jesus corrected the thinking about it. And acted as sacrifice for the sin of those who follow him. Why don't you comb through the NT??? Most of the stuff I am saying comes from there. The new testament illustrates the loving side of God. Jesus was the vessel. See if NT says anything that speaks to you. You will be surprised. Jesus had quite a bit to say to those scribes you mentionedI've learnt in the past with some people is that you can take a horse to water but you cannot make that horse drink it. When I feel I'm going around and around in circles with someone, I drop the issue.
I know you aren't going to condemn that blood-thirsty tyrant in the Old Testament. So be it.
Ok, Moses ordered killings. New to me, but not reason to change my heart about God. God ordered war a few times i think during that period. He cleared up a lot of bodies to house the many people wandering; freshly freed from slavery. I won't turn away from God because he "did something I don't agree with". He made the world. I just temporarily live here.
Would you follow someone who did things you didn't agree with even though it's utterly repulsive? Turn away from that fraud of a God in the OT as depicted in Numbers. It's not God, it's the "gods" who were physical sick beings always wanting to go to war.
You have to be in complete harmony with God. You cannot not approve of somethings He did. Would Jesus do that? Would He follow the Father who did things He didn't agree with? Since they are one, is Jesus not guilty of war? Did He not say those who live by the sword die by the sword.
Do you notice how nauseating it was for me to read your explanation that God cleared up a lot of bodies?
You do know Satan is the King of Destruction?Ok, where are you coming from/going with this post. First, Jesus had a moment where he "rathered" not go through with crucifiction. He then relented to God's will.
God allowed his beloved son to be spat on, beaten, teased and killed. What was your question???If Jesus can have a desire different from God's and then submit to God, then Jesus cannot BE God. Unless he has what psychologists call dissociative identity disorder. The more Christians try to "explain" God, the more they make him look insane.
This is one of those "mysteries" that the "faithful" understand
he is one with God in spirit. They have the same heart. Husband and wife are supposed to be "one". God and Jesus are bound by the fact that they agree (overall). Jesus came to show us the heart of God as well. He is a healer, a provider, a way (when all other ways fail) he even has victory over death. His favor is more precious than life itself. You don't believe. Does that upset you???No, I'm not upset in the least. I agree that what Jesus meant by "My father and I are one" has to do with agreement not substance. He even prayed for the Church to be one as he and the father are one. And I also agree that Jesus (if he actually existed) may well have been one of the manifestations of the spirit of Christ that visits the Earth from time to time. Yet, even as a myth, he is powerful.
I don't agree that he brings healing, providence or power over death. None of these are evident within the Church. If they were, then I would know it as even a blind man knows where the sun is. And you would not have to preach to me for even as the sun rises in the east and is seen in the west, I would know that these things are true. As it is they are not true, so you have to tell me what you want me to believe.The church? We haven't talked about the church. I haven't been in years. I want you to believe whatever makes YOU most comfortable. If you don't believe that God is who he says he is, why duscuss Jesus with Christians? It is a parallel conversation. I can never convince you that Jesus is who he says he is. He ascended with the stigmata. We have to have faith in it to have faith in it.
...something, right???
Excellent point. However, God took on the form of a human being who was born with free will and was susceptible to temptation. It was a momentary temptation in the Garden of Gethsemane as He was human. As much as Jesus is God incarnate, He took on the role of the Son of God. His relationship with the Father is how we must have a relationship with the Father. Even if there is something we don't want to do, His will should be our will.
A temptation can often be lie that we don't want something when in we fact we do. Satan tried to convince Jesus that He did not want to save the world from sin which was a lie.
You are not using the above argument in context. We are talking from a moral point of view. For example, God had no problem killing children or ordering people to do so yet Jesus warned of the severe punishment of those who kill children. So would Jesus agree with what God instructed Moses to do in that horrible Numbers passage? Would He go along with breaking the Lord's own commandment? Did Jesus not say those who live by the sword, die by the sword?
In the Bible, God instructed Moses and clan to kill a man gathering wood on the Sabbath. Jesus broke the Sabbath by picking the ears off corn.
Can you see just how out of sync Jesus is with this God? Isn't there something wrong here?
because they want to be heard and remind that god is listening no mater how silent or how loud we get
Claire Evans, anytime you want an explaination as to why Jesus is the most wicked man in the Bible, let me know. I have two things working in my favour, scripture and a sense of morality. By the way, if anyone wants to start a Hub about Jesus and how loving he is, please do. I would love a Hub page to discuss how Jesus was anything but loving.
Oh, my comments on a certain Hub are always deleted even though I am respectful (I am not name calling or insulting any of the Hub contributors) I am simply, by quoting scripture attacking their love for Jesus. Its a shame these people are so insecure about their belief they cannot bare a challenge.
Here is the Hub: http://heavenbound5511.hubpages.com/vid … is-to-ComeBrian, God cannot be evil if He doesn't exist. Possibly peple are not taking you up on your challenge because the Bible says we shouldn't argue: Proverbs 29:9 If a wise man goes to court with a fool, the fool rages and scoffs, and there is no peace.
1 Timothy 1:4 Don't let them waste their time in endless discussion of myths and spiritual pedigrees. These things only lead to meaningless speculations, which don't help people live a life of faith in God.
2 Timothy 2:14 Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.dianetrotter, you're saying God is above being discussed or debated? Is this the meaning of these ridiculous bible references? We already know your God is a jealous, insecure God - I guess this is why we better not discuss his actions or decisions.
Above debate - yep! He doesn't want people to argue over him. To make a very simple comparison, I tell students that they should be above fights. When someone says "I don't like you.," it is nothing to fight about. Everyone doesn't have to like you. If he does not exist, he has no actions or decision ... right?
I've just asked you for an explanation to the explanation I gave you in your attempt to poorly prove Jesus is wicked. So it's no use calling Jesus wicked if you cannot prove it. Please don't dodge the issue.
Moses ordered the rape of virgins. Did Jesus ever order that? Yes or no?
Would you like me or yourself to start a forum topic? There you can prove just how wicked Jesus is and be obliged to refute any rebuttals.
So if you don't respect those you challenge, reply to my challenges. Don't ignore my explanations.First, I have shown evidence on these pages before about why I think Jesus is the most wicked man in the bible, so I am not dodging anyone. Second, yes, please start a Hub about Jesus. It would be a pleasure for me to debate this charlatan of morality.
You have shown passages that you think back up what you say. I addressed them and you didn't refute it. That means you are dodging. What is it with people? It doesn't matter if one is Christian or atheist, if they don't want to hear a rebuttal of their own beliefs that they badly want to hold onto they just ignore it but still claim they have refuted an argument they never addressed in the first place.
I can't start a hub about Jesus because it is you that is making the claim. Instead, I have started a forum topic. You can begin...
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/103556
Yes, the Bible says God knows everything. The Bible also says God has to come down to see what people are doing. If God is omnipresent, why does he have to come anywhere? The Bible is a very contradictory book. believers just have to decide which preacher they will follow and then ignore or mutilate any scriptures that disagree with what that preacher teaches.
Psalm 33:13 From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind;
I'm not familiar with the passage that says he has to come down to see.I believe, though I could be wrong, she refers to God coming down to speak to him about the disobedience. He didn't have to come down, nor did he have to ask Adam where he was. All that was for Adam. Remember, God already knew what had been done.
Hmmm... I did not mention a heaven. But the bible speaks about heaven. It is a place beyond the stars as far as I can tell. God is waiting to bring that place here, from what I understand.
Interesting, no such place has been found yet. Beyond the stars? From what I understand stars go on forever or at least as far as we can see in our universe. The farthest known star would have to be in the farthest known galaxy with is 10.7 billion light-years away. That's far. It takes the light from our sun 10.7 billion light-years to reach it. Of course the light from it is 10.7 billion years old. How old does the bible say the universe is? Some say 6 or 7 thousand years. Not sure how that light got to us or how we can see it? Just thoughts.
Will you please give me the formula you used when you made your observations? Oh! And the calender you used. I can't wait to see what calculations I can come up with.
Also, do you know how many unknown facts/animals/plants there are in earth??? Me neitherThe spiral galaxy has a redshift of 2.18, which means it is 10.7 billion light-years from Earth and therefore existed just 3 billion years after the big bang.
I'd do the math for you but I'm a little short on time and of course I have no idea how to do it.Ok, now i need the instruments you used to get your numbers.
How is the spiral galaxy this time of year??? Was it hard to get your measurements???
If you don't know how to do the math, how can this "fact" be verified?You may not believe this, but there are smarter people then me out there. These smart people have no religious agenda, all they want is the truth.
Biblical references Psalm 93:1, 96:10, and 1 Chronicles 16:30 include text stating that "the world is firmly established, it cannot be moved." In the same manner, Psalm 104:5 says, "the Lord set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." Further, Ecclesiastes 1:5 states that "And the sun rises and sets and returns to its place" etc.
Galileo arrived in Rome February 1633 and was brought before inquisitor Vincenzo Maculani to be charged with stating that the Earth and Planets revolved around the relatively stationary Sun.
Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy", namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions.
Some of that was copied out of Wikipedia.
My point is if you're not believing that these far of galaxies are all that far or that evolution happens because if conflicts with the bible, you may want to learn a lesson from the past.Ok, you have evidence that the earth is not firmly established? And can be moved?
Sure, one can't measure the speed of an object by itself, it has to be measured relative to something else (this was one of Einstein's realizations).
The Earth orbits, on average, 93 million miles (149,600,000 km) from the Sun (this distance is defined as one Astronomical Unit (AU)), taking one year to complete an orbit. The Earth revolves around the Sun at a speed of about 18.5 miles/sec (30 km/sec).
The sun is about 26,000 light-years from the center of the Milky Way Galaxy, which is about 80,000 to 120,000 light-years across (and less than 7,000 light-years thick). We are located on on one of its spiral arms, out towards the edge. It takes the sun (and our solar system) roughly 200-250 million years to orbit once around the Milky Way. In this orbit, we (and the rest of the Solar System) are traveling at a velocity of about 155 miles/sec (250 km/sec).
The Milky way Galaxy is just one galaxy in a group of galaxies called the Local Group. Within the Local Group, the Milky Way Galaxy is moving about 185 miles/sec (300 km/sec).
Are you now going to tell me the earth is flat the sun just disappears at night?
If one believes the Bible, Adam and Eve were created with age. They were never sperm, babies, or children. The garden of eden had trees which did not start as seeds. God created the earth with age.
Sounds ok by me
Science may not like it though. That idea could throw a monkey wrench in all the educated guesses about the worlds age to date."God created the earth with age" Why? Now I realize you are just trying to justify the FACT that the universe is old and according to the bible, it's not, but why would God deceive us? This is how you rationalize God? Remember not long ago it was thought that the earth was the centre of the universe and everything revolved around it. We got this lesson from the bible and ran with it, but as it turns out the bible was wrong. What else do you think it's wrong about?
Are you trying to justify the fact that Science, with all its mistakes and corrections is much better? There have been many environmental events and catastrophes and earthquakes and famines; Witnessed by no one we could ever know. Would people who were only born say 40 years ago, be able to "completely accurately" explain the age of the earth with gadgets? That is "real" to you?
Oh, yes. It is through all the mistakes and corrections that science improves. Today, scientists have a better understanding of the world and our universe than humans have ever had in history. Tomorrow, we will know more. A year from now, we will know even more. Science gets better with age, while holy books just get more antiquated.
Depends how "completely accurately" you mean. Uranium-lead dating, using mass spectrometry "gadgets" can provide a formation date for igneous rocks accurate to within a few million years. That's real enough for a 4.57 billion year old planet.Ha!!!
amioncandidcamera? So you believe that an accuracy of a few million years is accurate? Wow! Now, how can you call me crazy? We are arguing about someone being able to pinpoint (within an accuracy of a few million years) the age of the earth. Not to mention all the environmental changes that speed or slow down the age. And who the heck would you trust today to come up with an accurate million-ography rock aging measuring stick? Not ONE eyewitness! The antiquated books from ages and ages ago cannot be accurately dated. Milk spill, dirt, old sand, air freezes and language changes all factor in when dating paper, right? I mean, how can we know that the age-ometers have been correctly calibrated??? You are asking the bible to be ultra-accurate with proof to boot. Are you asking uour scientists any questions that they can't explain? If so, do you believe them anyway???In a four-and-a-half billion year old Earth, an accuracy of a few million years is pretty good. Planet formation isn't a flip of a switch - there is no exact moment when an accreting ball of matter becomes a planet. Radiometric dating does not establish an exact date of formation, just the upper limit on when it could have occurred.
Environmental changes do not affect radioactive decay rates. This has been tested numerous times. Environmental changes do affect the chemical composition of minerals, however, so metamorphic rocks are unusable for radiometric dating. I trust the geologists and physicists who have been perfecting radiometric dating techniques for more than a century now - no eyewitnesses needed.
Mass spectrometers are calibrated by testing samples with a known chemical composition. If the spectrometer reading is different from the test sample, it must be recalibrated until it accurately reads the composition of the test sample.
As for the Bible, I am not asking it to be accurate. I recognize it as a work of literature, not a textbook.
Not personally, but they are asking themselves plenty of questions they can't explain. There are countless questions science has yet to answer. That's why we still have science.Needless to say, I think, you may as well have said, yuhxtu 7sckgt @@&95 and gfcnmlp. You still must believe that the testing sample has been "calibrated". How do you know that the previous 1000 readings were not based upon erroneous data? There are many more unanswered questions in science and nature. Many variations that cannot be accounted for are incorporated into the formulas and counted as fact because nobody has guessed differently with an extra letter behind their name. Yes, we will always have science. There is always something else left to discover; another correction to make.
By the way, I think some of science is in keeping with biblical explanations.
More real then getting and trusting the information from a 2000 year old book and calling it a day. Yes.
I think they knew what they were talking about 2000 years ago. They were there. They were not relying on test strips and powerful microscopes. They were talking about their experiences at the time it was happening. Isn't science trying to find out what happened then??? Why would a 2000 year old book NOT be enough to explain what happened then?
Because those who wrote it were steeped in superstition an myth and knowing absolutely nothing about the world around them.
That's unfair. Whether you can argue that any religion is a myth, the fact is that people 2000 were not stupid. They might not have the final 'scientific' explanation for why a plant grows or where it came from, but they were certainly smart enough to understand the seasons, the best way to plant and harvest crops, the best way to raise and care for animals. They also fully understood that dead people don't simply come back to life.
Those things they did no, but they didn't know anything at about the rest of the Earth. They only know about the area they were in. That's most likely why they thought they could get all those animals on a boat. They had no idea what was in Africa, Australia or the America's. They had no knowledge of anything that they couldn't or shouldn't have knowledge of.
I don't argue those points. And maybe I misread ATM, or simply came in late in the conversation. But many people have made it sound like people two or three thousand years ago were just a bunch of rubes who would believe anything about anything, which is not only unfair but rather dumb. As I've said before, no amount of evolution would have ensured the survival of the human race if we were really that dumb.
Perhaps, but they were very ignorant about the world around then.
But instead, they created stories of gods creating everything as opposed to what we now know about our world.
And yet, millions believe today that dead people can come back to life. Isn't that what Jesus did?Depending on what you mean, I don't disagree with that. There are a lot of things geographically and technically they didn't know, nor was there reason for them to know. That doesn't mean they were stupid.
But there's also a lot we don't know about our world. And I've yet to hear a convincing reason why continued existence of the universe (flux or not) simply being is a better explanation that it being the Creation of God.
Yessssss, but there's a big difference between believing that people can come back to life and believing that people do come back to life. I believe that Jesus did rise from the dead but I also believe that Jesus is God. My wife and my father are not coming back, no matter how strongly I wish it. They were only human beings.
And part of the point of that is that these people saw Jesus after He died. They knew that this didn't just happen, so it had to be a miracle. Before they saw Him, they were huddled in a room, hiding from the authorities. They pretty much expected to be dragged off just like Jesus was. After they saw Him, suddenly they burst out and couldn't stop telling people about Him.
Because the writers were not eye witnesses of the events of Jesus and they writers had agendas. Science has no agenda, it just wants the truth and the truth is the writer of the bible had no idea about the earth, but they tried to describe it anyway, but got it wrong.
How do you know that? The evidence would seem to indicate exactly the opposite.
I asked you first. How do you know that they weren't there and got the missage wrong?
I had to go back to see what this conversation was about. Evidence that the writers bible had no idea about the earth? Well nothing in genesis accurately decibels our universe. They didn't describe the earth moving around the Sun and there were no description of the size of the universe or even what the stars were. They had no knowledge greater than that of the day. The same can be said for the Quran, some 600 years after Jesus and it describes the earth as the shape of an egg. Perhaps a closer description then the bible, but never the less not even close.
The OP was:
"Believers believe that God knows everything. Then why many believers pray to God loudly, shouting and many times on microphone?"
Not about how accurately the bible described the earth in Genesis, however science has proven that the formation followed the Genesis account well enough, what we have in dispute is the possible time sequences.
BTW people "pray to God loudly, shouting and many times on microphone?" because either they are in a public meeting, or are dealing (I suspect in the posters country of origin) with people who do not have a clear understanding of scripture, and they seek to reinforce their preaching with repetition.
Personally I think Christ is best introduced to folk one on one, or in small groups, but that's just an old evangelist speaking.
I also think that once you have introduced someone to Christ, you have the obligation of guiding and mentoring them until they are no longer babes in faith, but again, that's my personal opinion.Sorry John - this is nonsense. Science has proven the opposite - sorry.
Well I did say 'well enough' - but I won't argue with you!
Perhaps I should have said that the sequence of development roughly corresponded?
Not presenting this as a scientific site, 'cos it's obviously not, but it's 2am here and I need to sleep, so deep research is impossible, but take a look at what it states....
http://worldview3.50webs.com/science.html
But like I said, no argument needed!
Maybe I will find something better tomorrow, I do remember seeing something distinctly scientific which indicated what I suggest 'well enough'....One would have to make quite a leap to think that site legit.
I like this statement (in about 600 BC, the prophet Jeremiah says the number is "countless as the stars of the sky) and then (And this is correct, because we now estimate the number of stars to be approximately 10 to the 26th) 10 to the 26th is a number and numbers are not countless.
Also, it's a stretch to say the least to say "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). describes the big bang. It's actually not a stretch it would be a lie to do so.Because "God Created the Heaven and the earth" is not at all a description of the big bang as that site says. It even says before the big bang there was nothing, but that not what the big bang proposes.
Why really?Hey, I'm not the Scientist. Yeah, why. I think that it is perfectly reasonable to say that God spoke up the big bang. All the logistics are not necessary for me. I never confirmed or denied the actuality of either. Alls I know is, God created the world. Fix it however you want. Speculate all day if you like
tomorrow too.
For some reason I thought you were talking about the writers of the Gospels.
No, Moses didn't see what happened in most of the Pentateuch. And no, there is no real reason for the writers to have advanced (for that time) scientific knowledge.
Come again please. Your brain may have too much knowledge. You are talking like Solomon after his turning away.
I know the bible does teach that knowledge and questions are bad things. Why? Is there something that they don't want you to know?
You dont know the bible. The bible teaches you to study for yourself. Surely people in study ask questions. But faith realizes that some things are above "knowledge" you will never know everything about everything.
Yes, it teaches to study the bible, but nothing else.
Got to disagree there, reading the bible made me study stacks of other stuff looking for the loopholes!
The popular misconception is that biblical followers become brain dead and never read anything else again in their lives, that is totally wrong.
However once you have understood scripture, then I agree all else is viewed through the 'filter' of Gods word, and believers are then less susceptible to the machinations of the prevailing world view (which changes constantly) - no longer tossed around on the seas of doubt and confusion.
Whether you accept it or not, there are some very intelligent and well educated believers writing here.Believing in God has nothing to do with intelligence. Intelligence is a very tricky thing to understand as we have so many different kinds of intelligences. Some do well in school, but have no understanding of human expression. Some like me can't spell, but have gifts that others do not. I personally know very successful smart people who can barely read and I know well educated people who are impulsive and have a hard time maintaining a relationship. I also know people that I think best follow the bible because they have the moral growth of a 6 year old. When questions like " if you don't believe in God what's stoping you from murder and rape" it's time to hope they stay true the the NT not the OT. Just saying.
- Agreed again, strewth if we carry on like this people reading will get bored!
This is so true. I mean, I'm a believer, and I'm more intelligent than 98% of the people I know.
HAHAHAHAHA! j/k
But, it is indeed a true statement, and I appreciate your willingness as an atheist not to resort to the 'you're just an idiot' defense.
The bible does not discourage the study of anything but whichcraft as far as I can remember. The thing that I believe is implied is that we must put what we learn in its proper perspective. God works beyond nature, can defy the laws of physics on every side.
Woah Woah Woah. I have NO IDEA what Bible you guys are reading. Let me address some things, that my scientific friends may like to ponder.
1. There is no reference to how long it took God to "create" Adam (or Eve) or the rest of the world. God's time is not 24 hours in a day.
2. We are never told how long Adam and Eve are in the Garden. Perhaps their aging (because we are given their age at death) did not start until they ate the fruit of the tree (because they were immortal at their creation)
3. Jesus tells us that during the second coming some people will be awake and working, while others will be sleeping (he was no scientist, and could not have known that without a higher being telling him so)
There are countless scriptures that prove what we know today- including wars that were recorded in the Bible, but only known to be true as of recently thanks to very old hieroglyphics.
The point is, there is no way of knowing how old EXACTLY the earth is. We know it's old- dinosaurs have proved that to a standard error of about 30 years. My Bible has no problem with that.Like a breath of fresh air!!!!!
yess! Thank you so much! That felt really good. It is just what I have been saying, with hot sauce i love this post, please tell me, how long have you been here?I don't know, many religious scholars say about 6000 years. I didn't just make that up.
1. So when God says a day he doesn't mean a day? Except when he's telling us not to work on the 7th day, then he means a day. But we still don't listen to him, because Sunday in the first day and we still don't listen to him because we have part times jobs and someone has to be at the store and pump the gas.
2. Adam and Eve, that you believe? When God says he made the earth and 6 days and everything revolves around it, you think he didn't really mean a day, but now your about to tell me that all of humanity came from one man and one woman. That second generation must have been icky.
3. What are you talking about? The second coming hasn't happened yet and was supposed to happen very soon after Jesus died. But on any given day some are sleeping and some are awake. People take naps all the time in Europe. What's your point?
You may not know exactly how old the earth is but people much much smarter than me say billions of years, not thousands.
The details of heaven are a moot point in a discussion like this. If there is no God, is there even a heaven. The whole basis of faith in Jesus Christ birth, death, and resurrection are fundamental. If people can't believe that by faith, there is no way they will believe specifics about the rapture, tribulation, 1st, 2nd and 3rd heaven as described in Revelations, or any deep doctrinal points. It is ok that you don't believe it.
I speak of the story about the Tower of Babel. Genesis 11:5 "But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building"
From commentary ...Genesis 11:5
And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower
Not locally or visibly, being immense, omnipresent, and invisible; nor in order to see and take notice of what he otherwise could not see from heaven, for he is omniscient; but this is spoken after the manner of men, and is to be understood of some effects and displays of his power, which were manifest, and showed him to be present: the Targum is,
``and the Lord was revealed to take vengeance on them on account of the business of the city and tower the children of men built.''You have scripture which says God is everywhere and you have scripture that says he is not everywhere. How can you interpret one "in light of" the other when thee is nothing in the context that changes the meaning of either one? As I said above, you must dismiss any scripture that disagrees with what you already believe, and there are many such.
Hi Rhonda, I believe God does what He wants to do when He wants to. A parent may handle discipline differently with children based on their own criteria. God deals with us differently based on how and where He wants to do it. There will always be some point of contention if you choose not to believe. I study passages in context of the book it is written in and the time. It is certainly your privilege to disagree. I have no problem with God being everywhere or with Him making a local appearance. Since He is everywhere at once, it is very easy for Him to manifest Himself locally. He doesn't have to travel.
The bible is consistent about this. God has a physical form and He sees existence from there, from His thrown in heaven. But He can be here in spirit, like in Gen1 when it says God's spirit was over the face of the waters.
Heaven exists before existence, therefore outside of it and beyond the jurisdiction of science. Being that God exists before existence, He exists before and outside of time. From His perspective there is no difference between past and present. There is only what is and what isn't. What does exist and what does not.
The gift God gave humanity through the creation of Adam is free will. The ability to behave unlike anything else in God's creation, independent of God's will. In other words, we are able to create. He knows our hearts and He knows our minds, but even He does not know what we create before we create it. In those moments in which God participates, these are the moments of these creations. Like Babel, humans were creating a city and a tower. Or in the case of Abraham and Isaac, God actually created the situation that would make Abraham choose to test his faith and commitment.
Even we cannot know how we would respond in a given situation until the moment happens.
That's how I understand it anyway.Again I want to inject my thoughts and belief. I am hoping that the question was honest and not purposely confuse the Christians.
God is person, Creator of universe. Is it not enough reason to know everything? Why we pray loud since we pray Word of God. I am not talking prayer what has made by man. We return His Word back to Him to accomplish what purpose was sent to us. He instructed us to say it with our mouth (Josh 1:8).
If I say to God: "I love you", does not mean I think to Him love. I must talk.
Do you say to your love wife, I love you or you think it and let her figure out what it is about? The second reason is that what we say it bound. In our court system it does not matter what you think, but what you say. Thirdly: The Word of God, produces faith. Only faith can save, justify and brings the blessing.
The same time I must, to say that if you hurt someone you do not apology with he thought but in the words.The difference is that God doesn't need to hear what we are thinking; the bible claims that he sees right into our hearts. If we lie to God in prayer, he knows; not so in court. The same goes with my wife or anyone else. I could lie to her, but not if she were omnipotent.
So again, why does God want us to pray to him? The answer is that we are to subjugate ourselves to the higher power.
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