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What is Faith?

  1. countrywomen profile image60
    countrywomenposted 8 years ago

    Here is an interesting email letter that I received today.
    ============================================

    An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem science has with God, The Almighty.

    He asks one of his new students to stand and.....

    Prof: So you believe in God?

    Student: Absolutely, sir.

    Prof : Is God good?

    Student: Sure.

    Prof: Is God all-powerful?

    Student : Yes.

    Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him.

    Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn't. How is this God good then? Hmm?

    (Student is silent.)

    Prof: You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?

    Student: Yes.

    Prof: Is Satan good?

    Student : No.

    Prof: Where does Satan come from?

    Student: From...God...

    Prof: That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?

    Student: Yes.

    Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything. Correct?

    Student: Yes.

    Prof: So who created evil?

    (Student does not answer.)

    Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don't they?

    Student: Yes, sir.

    Prof: So, who created them?

    (Student has no answer.)

    Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you.

    Tell me, son...Have you ever

    seen God?

    Student: No, sir.

    Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?

    Student: No, sir.

    Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?

    Student: No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.

    Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?

    Student: Yes.

    Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your GOD doesn't exist.

    What do you say to that, son?

    Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.

    Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.

    Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?

    Prof: Yes.

    Student: And is there such a thing as cold?

    Prof: Yes.

    Student: No sir. There isn't.

    (The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)

    Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat.

    But we don't have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can't go

    any further after that.

    There is no such thing as cold . Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of

    heat

    . We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy .. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it .

    (There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)

    Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?

    Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?

    Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright

    light, flashing light....But if

    you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? In

    reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to make

    darkness darker, wouldn't you?

    Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?

    Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

    Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?

    Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it.

    Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?

    Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.

    Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?

    (The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument is going.)

    Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher? (The class is in uproar.)

    Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's brain?

    (The class breaks out into laughter.)

    Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir.

    With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

    (The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face unfathomable.)

    Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.

    Student: That is it sir... The link between man & god is FAITH . That is all that keeps things moving & alive.

    NB: this is a true story, and the
    student was none other than.........



    APJ Abdul Kalam, the former president of India .

    1. belief713 profile image77
      belief713posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      LOVE IT!

      Wondering...why do some have such a hard time believing in something they can't touch, smell, see, hear, feel, etc? It's like when you have a screaming baby in your arms - you don't know what's wrong but your belief system and all the evidence pointing to it (crying) leads you to believe there's a problem. You can't see the actual physical problem (it could be gas or it could be the baby just wants attention), but you know, without a doubt (faith) there is a problem one because of what it has produced.

      Hope that made sense LOL

      By the way, just wanted to say, faith has a multi part definition. I just learned it recently - and my name is FAITH. Faith is not just belief, in contrast to popular belief. It's also action... you can't sit and twiddle your thumbs and just have faith - it doesn't always work like that. Doesn't really line up with the email, but what caught my attention was the title - what is faith? (I feel a Hub coming on, assuming there's not already one)

    2. Eng.M profile image75
      Eng.Mposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      that's strange, I have read the same story in my language but it was told the student was different(Ahmed Dydat)
      I don't think it really happend.
      sometime people want to advertise for concepts by anyway.

      though, the question is good.
      what is faith?
      ha Mark

      faith is something inside you tells you that something you don't see or feel is true depending on your emotions , logical experiences or both.

      faith in God is to know he is somewhere there . I don't see him but I can ask him to raise this feeling on me of his existence.

      what do you think faith is ?

      1. belief713 profile image77
        belief713posted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Wow! This thread really took off! I'm back to rally it up some!



        I too am interested in seeing what Mark thinks faith is.... it really is a two-part equation. You can't have faith without action - "faith without action is dead" (James 2:17). That ties in with what we were going back and forth about earlier in respects of just believing what you hear. If you believe everything you hear, you will easily be mislead. You should follow your faith with action to either affirm or achieve what you believe. Look up things, research them - that's action!

        It's because you have to edit the info when you hit reply or else it automatically quotes everything.

    3. Make  Money profile image76
      Make Moneyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Okay so it wasn't written by APJ Abdul Kalam, it's still good.

      Students should give a copy of it to their teachers when learning about evolution.  Right Reverend Mark? smile

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        With the state India is in and the history of this Prime Minister, quoting him may be counter-productive.By the way a professor of anything would know that cold is the absence of heat. Any smart eight year old knows that.

        1. mohitmisra profile image54
          mohitmisraposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          and the history of this Prime Minister- what the hell you talking about?
          ADJ Abdul Kalam is considered as a great scientist who was instrumental in India's nuclear program.

          1. countrywomen profile image60
            countrywomenposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            I hope this is the last time I have to mention that this letter is a hoax which in a impulsive moment I posted. We had the ex-President Abdul Kalam visit Seattle and somebody played this joke. I have reported the person to our internal company forum moderator for playing this prank with many of us who may have not heard/received such email earlier. I hope as the days/years go by I would be more mature by my experiences and avoid such mistakes. Once again I have a lot of respect for science and also respect people who have there own beliefs. Have a great day folks smile

            1. Paraglider profile image89
              Paragliderposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              No worries, CW - it sparked a good discussion smile

              1. countrywomen profile image60
                countrywomenposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                I still feel bad that somehow I was responsible for spreading some false information and also may have led some people to question the  laws of science (which I respect a lot). I personally have agnostic views and would take me a life time to decide one way or another to  figure out with absolute certainty about the existence of God. I hope to enjoy this journey as much as the destination. smile

                1. Paraglider profile image89
                  Paragliderposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  The journey is everything, and with agnosticism you can travel far. There is no need for false certainty smile

                  1. countrywomen profile image60
                    countrywomenposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    My parents love me too much but I have tough time with my grandma though. Although I do nothing to disrespect her beliefs but my questions about our traditional practices(scriptures) has her totally mad and then I have to end up playing the nice little girl that I was.

                    Although for official purposes I am a Hindu and I have Karma/Reincarnation beliefs but still have many questions about so many things. I once asked her about one of the Avatars of Vishnu called matsya(which is supposed to have carried all the animal species in a big boat) how it is possible to carry dinosaurs and she said everything is possible for God and I find   certain things may or may not have historical background like Dwaraka (near Gujarat) has some artifacts about Krishna (another Vishnu Avatar) but all the super human feats performed I am not sure. It is many things like this when I ask my close grandma that she gets upset with me (anyway after a certain age it is difficult to change and who knows even I may become a strong believer when I am in my 60's). Anyway it was nice talking to you and now my husband has finished calling his parents. Got to go to  bed now. Good bye and have a great week ahead smile

    4. dranjesh profile image51
      dranjeshposted 8 years agoin reply to this
  2. profile image0
    Neon Sign Fanposted 8 years ago

    Honestly, I've heard several different variations, one was the the guy talking to a professor was a U.S. Marine who beat up the professor because "god had more important things to do and had the marine take of him" I can't remember how it went exactly, but you get the idea. Then there is the classic about the professor challenging the existence of god by dropping a pencil, and if god existed the pencil wouldn't hit the floor. And the pencil fell it hit the professors pant leg and landed on his shoe.

    1. countrywomen profile image60
      countrywomenposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I am not sure of the authenticity of this email. We have company internal forums to which I am subscribed and got this email through that. Since it was supposedly about APJ Abdul kalam and nice discussion I posted it here. smile

  3. Paraglider profile image89
    Paragliderposted 8 years ago

    CW - it's really not very good at all. It is superficially clever, but that's the best you can say for it. I'm pretty sure you can deconstruct it yourself and see why I'm saying that.

    1. countrywomen profile image60
      countrywomenposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I just got it 15 minutes back and read it. I thought I would share it with my friends here at HP. I haven't attempted any deconstruction and have no idea even whether this is a genuine email since I don't know the sender. If you consider this spam then  please let me know I will delete this thread. smile

      1. Mark Knowles profile image59
        Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        It is not spam. It is just another religionist attack on genuine knowledge.

        Whoever made this up is clearly ignorant of the evolutionary process.

        And desperate to justify their irrational beliefs. One step up from preaching the bible I guess.

        Just goes to show how desperate the believers are becoming.

        Outright lies is the order of the day I guess.

        Rather surprised at you CW. Would have thought you would have read and understood this before posting it.

        Expect lots of believers to stop by and thank you for sharing this wonderful story. They like make believe stories wink

        1. belief713 profile image77
          belief713posted 8 years agoin reply to this

          What genuine knowledge is that - evolution? There's holes in that too...

          1. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            LOL

            Oh - that must prove there is a god. lol

            Golly gosh you believers are getting really desperate lately. Why is that?

            Please explain to me your understanding of evolution - we can take it from there.

            1. belief713 profile image77
              belief713posted 8 years agoin reply to this

              You're right, it doesn't prove anything. I don't need proof to know there is a God, like pgrundy said


              I just like to have a healthy argument every once in a while! smile I'm mature enough though and can agree to disagree.

              To be honest, I don't have a huge understanding of evolution at all because I never hugely cared for it. It contrasted with what I felt in my spirit - I don't believe I came from monkeys or fish or a big bang. I know I was created by a higher infinite being. I don't feel I'm higher or better than anyone else (we're all created equal, but unique) because of my belief system, but can understand you're feeling that way because many Christians are very self righteous.



              I have, from cover to cover, a few times. It's called the Bible - can't knock it til you try it! smile

              1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                So - you do not understand evolution - yet you choose to poke holes at it because you cannot have come from monkeys. Which in itself displays your total ignorance of evolution.

                And you feel in your spirit that you were created - presumably in your current form - by a higher being.

                Not really getting what you are saying here. Any knowledge we gain about our origins is wrong - because you already know where we came from - magic?

                The bible is many things - but what it is not is a history book. And I have read and studied it thank you. I guess I just understood it better than you do apparently. wink

                1. belief713 profile image77
                  belief713posted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  I didn't poke holes at evolution - yet! Just don't really agree with it 100% (from what I recall). I was taught evolution in school - a long time ago. I'm sure there are advancements and all and I can look into the subject again and study it if I care to, but I don't. I care to study the Bible instead. Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, so fine, I guess I'm ignorant in the sense of science. But not ignorant in my beliefs.

                  No, I don't think we came from magic, not at all. And I'm not saying all knowledge we gain about our origins is wrong. I just don't agree with all of it - but much of it ties in with the Bible.



                  LOL - good one. Not necessarily, I just lean on my faith more than understanding... as I ask for it, God gives me all the knowledge and understanding I need.

                  P.S. The Bible is a history book, science has managed to prove many things in it.

                  1. Sufidreamer profile image81
                    Sufidreamerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    I would say historical book - probably some historical basis, but it is a big leap to take it as word-for-word literal.

                    Kind of like the Iliad.

                  2. Mark Knowles profile image59
                    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    Such as?

                  3. Mark Knowles profile image59
                    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    Ah well- I guess you are the lucky one. I have to learn things for myself rather than have some one tell me them into my head. Like we did not evolve from monkeys. lol

                    Myself - I prefer to understand things. Harder work but more rewarding in the long run.

        2. countrywomen profile image60
          countrywomenposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Ok Mark I will delete this thread. It was an email I received today and since others feel it is a "made up" email then I certainly don't want to spread it anymore. I guess it was one of the those instantaneous moments when I posted this thread and now when I think of it I feel I shouldn't have posted it in the first place without believing in the substance of the email contents. I  thought it was about the personal experience of India's ex president and interesting discussion but I had no intention or agenda to ridicule anybody. Sorry folks sad

          1. profile image0
            sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            You want to delete it because it doesn't impress Mark or Paraglider?  Consider it is good thought for other people whether a banana phone story or not. smile

          2. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            There is no need to delete it - certainly not on my account. smile

            You need to remember that these people will lie as much as it takes to attack genuine quests for knowledge. They have all the answers they need and will not accept anything other than their fairy tale.

            They need it to feel they are more important than they are. They also need to feel they have an understanding they do not.

            And will not listen to anything that goes against their beliefs. Despite the fact that science has no intention of attacking their beliefs - every step forward in our knowledge will be fought against.

            Read any history book.

      2. Paraglider profile image89
        Paragliderposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Good morning from Qatar - I posted my response then went to bed. Got up to find the thread was one of these "light the blue touch-paper and retire immediately" jobs. Anyway, ignoring the unedifying creation/evolution battle, let's look again at the conclusion of the (apocryphal) conversation:
        ---------------------------
        "Student: That is it sir... The link between man & god is FAITH. That is all that keeps things moving & alive".
        ---------------------------
        Look at the wording for a perfect example of begging the question:
        "the link between" any two entities implies the existence of both. The student and the professor are de facto entities, different mainly in age and experience. The link does not prove the existence of the second entity; rather, it requires its existence, which is entirely different. Faith is not proof of anything. It is not even evidence.
        The second statement:
        "That (faith) is all that keeps things moving & alive" is simply untrue. The simplest life forms move and are alive, without faith. Faith is a psychological need felt by some people.

      3. dingdong profile image61
        dingdongposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Anyway, there's a nice discussion going on smile

    2. Curious Traveller profile image77
      Curious Travellerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I couldn't disagree more. I think it is an excellent representation of what true faith is and why it means so much to so many of us. Faith is the belief that each of us is inherently entitled to and a hugely important part of life for a great many of us.

      Thank you for sharing this, "Countrywomen" - it is not something I shall forget in a hurry.

    3. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Science is also superficially clever.  smile

      1. Vladimir Uhri profile image60
        Vladimir Uhriposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        There are two kind of science. One is true science, observing facts from point A to B. and recording. It involves matter and time. Then there is pseudoscience - scientific fiction and it is politically motivated.

        There is faith, link between man and God as was said. But evolution has no one link between million species. How someone can say it is the science? It is nothing else than belief.
        We have common ground both we believe. But science is in constant changes. God and His Word never changes.

        "Scientific" ideas came later than faith in God. Why SciFi do not prove there is no God?   

        I did work in scientific lab an experimental pathology for years. That's my credentials.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          It is logically impossible to prove a negative. Why do not religionist prove there is a god?

          Although, sharpening a stick could be called a "scientific" idea. We were sharpening sticks long before we invented the magical super being in the sky wink

          1. Vladimir Uhri profile image60
            Vladimir Uhriposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Mark, we do not have to prove anything. God is not physical God. I had the same problem as you have and I tested God. He said: test me. And I did. This all what I would say. We did not come with Marx-Lenin-materialistic ideas. I do not want to be smart Alec either. Unbelief is low and primitive. Even scientist has to believe in his experiment.

          2. Vladimir Uhri profile image60
            Vladimir Uhriposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Mark, we do not have to prove anything. God is not physical God. I had the same problem as you have and I tested God. He said: test me. And I did. This all what I would say. We did not come with Marx-Lenin-materialistic ideas. I do not want to be smart Alec either. Unbelief is low and primitive. Even scientist has to believe in his experiment.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image59
              Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              Well - I tested him and he failed. Not sure what you are bringing up politics for unless it is to prove to me that the idea of god is purely political. In which case I agree. If you don't have to prove it - why are you asking "science" to disprove it?

              Belief is ignorant and uneducated. Easy answer to unanswerable question.

              Even believer should keep his belief in his head where it belongs.

              1. mohamedhmm profile image53
                mohamedhmmposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                ===


                I think Disbelief is ignorant and uneducated.
                God test us; we don't need to test God because God with us; and the test for us to have a belief in God or not.
                Just look to yourself and you will see God signs.
                Think who could give you this life and who could make you dead and alive again.
                who gave you the mind to lead;
                who gave you eyes to see;
                who gave you hands and legs;
                who the reason for you to be here in this life;
                think around you;
                think about the sun; who control it;
                just think;
                and there are a lot to think about it;
                at all God never close his door fot us; but we do, and that's the test for you and us...
                i ask God to guide us to his path.

  4. profile image0
    pgrundyposted 8 years ago

    CW, I can understand why you were taken by this dialogue. What I don't like about it though is that it artificially sets up this false battle between religion and science yet again.

    People who have faith aren't threatened by science and people who love science aren't threatened by religion.

    It's just people who don't really understand either that get into these silly fights.

    That's my feeling on it anyway. big_smile

    1. Sufidreamer profile image81
      Sufidreamerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Fully agree - the two are not mutually exclusive. I am a theist yet I am firmly upon the side of evolution. Never been the biggest fan of fundamentalism - it closes off too many doors in the mind.

      Many great scientists were religious and many great theologians were scientists.

      Sadly, it is probably tin-hat time here again hmm

    2. countrywomen profile image60
      countrywomenposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Pam- You are elder to me then please tell me what I should do. I just thought it was a good discussion between India's ex President but now I am not even sure of that. And also I have no intention of hurting people who are atheists since I myself have little agnostic  beliefs. I don't want to be a spam poster and also spread any false information without authenticity. Should I delete this thread as I don't want to keep apologizing again and again for a mistake on my part. I guess I will try to be less impulsive in future. Once again I am sorry.

      1. Sufidreamer profile image81
        Sufidreamerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Don't worry about it, CW - it was just a bit of fun.

        Mark and Paraglider are big enough to take care of themselves and will not be offended, I am sure. smile

        1. countrywomen profile image60
          countrywomenposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Sufi- Even I am big enough (turned 26 this month) but I still keep making such stupid mistakes. I personally also receive some flak from conservative hindus when I say that I believe in Karma/Reincarnation without an absolute certainty of the existence of God. I also believe in evolution and find my spiritual dimension opens when I go for the morning walk and sit quietly and meditate besides the lake near our house. Even my husband finds spiritual moments when he listens to his instrumental music. We both aren't fundamental folks who are trying to push an agenda. I hope Mark/Paraglider forgive me if they find this thread offensive.

          PS: Note to myself not to be impulsive and think things through before posting any posts/comments. sad

          1. Sufidreamer profile image81
            Sufidreamerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            That is part of being human - we all do impulsive things occasionally! I am 35 and should know better by now smile

            Anybody who knows you understands that you are not the type of person to push your beliefs onto anybody else. You keep your own spiritual journey to yourself, and do not try to force anybody else to your way of thinking, or insist upon judging them. smile

            Don't worry about it - it you leave it long enough, this thread will go the way of most of the others and turn into a deep conversation about alcohol wink

            PS - Say Hi to Hubby - hope that you are both looking forward to the weekend smile

        2. belief713 profile image77
          belief713posted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Don't be sorry. If it's that big of a deal HubPages staff will delete it. I think anyone who reads it will also read that you didn't know whatever it is you're claiming to not know (still a little sketchy on it). Besides, it's making for interesting conversation anyway - just leave it alone!

          Hey, we're both 26, cool! We still have a lot of mistakes to make, if you kick yourself for every one you make, you'll never make the one that makes a difference!

      2. profile image0
        pgrundyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        CW, I keep getting elder-er and elder-er every day! LOL!

        Seriously, don't be so hard on yourself. You liked it, you posted it, if people take offense they can deal with their feelings themselves. You shouldn't feel like you can only say or post things that don't bother anyone---That isn't even possible!

        1. countrywomen profile image60
          countrywomenposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Pam- WOW!! This thread seems to have a life of its own. Btw I hope I didn't make you feel older. It is just that I wasn't sure and I wanted some advice hence sought your opinion(like I do ask my parents/relatives). Well I do try to be careful about not hurting others since my grandfather once told me non violence isn't just about being vegetarian (which we are by birth) but also any negative/hurting words or thoughts about others  also is included within violence (which leads to negative karma which I try to avoid as far as possible). I do try mostly not to hurt others in anyway but sometimes like today I failed. I guess I am still evolving and learning from my mistakes. Thanks for taking the time to respond back to me smile

          1. profile image0
            pgrundyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            CW, you couldn't offend me if you tried--or make me feel old either! Actually I kind of like being older. So many things I don't have to worry about anymore. I can just be myself.

            It sounds like you have a wonderful family. They give you lots of good advice. Your grandfather sounds like a wise man.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image59
              Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              Good god - stop being so nice to each other !

              This is a religion forum. big_smile

              1. countrywomen profile image60
                countrywomenposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                Thanks Mark for the compliment that we are "nice to each other". Unfortunately, Pam my grandfather passed away and I miss him a lot. sad He was a very quiet and simple human being. Out of all in my family I liked him the most (of course being his favorite grandchild had a lot to do with it) smile

  5. profile image0
    pgrundyposted 8 years ago

    I should add that here in the U.S it has a political dimension to it that's pretty ugly. People trying to get evolution out of science class and insisting the U.S. is a Christian nation and that sort of crap.

    Which I guess is why Mark keeps up this fight. I'm glad he does, because I have no stomach for it. I just want to pop those people. Which, you know, doesn't help.

  6. Maddie Ruud profile image80
    Maddie Ruudposted 8 years ago

    Not sure I really want to get involved in any depth, here, but I see so many people posting on these types of topics in the forums, I feel the need to point out one thing:

    Evolution and God are not mutually exclusive.  Evolution does not disprove God.  Disproving evolution does not prove God.  The existence of God does not disprove evolution, nor does the lack of existence of God prove evolution.  I'm tired of people using one as evidence against the other.

    That's all.

    And please, play nice.

    1. Sufidreamer profile image81
      Sufidreamerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Maddie has spoken, and never a truer word smile

    2. gamergirl profile image60
      gamergirlposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I need an address to send you your cookies now.

      <3

    3. belief713 profile image77
      belief713posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you!! Because I completely agree - they kind of go hand-in-hand, if you allow them to...

  7. Mark Knowles profile image59
    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago

    Guess I will have to spell it out.

    We did not evolve from monkeys.

    That is what the religionists say evolution says - and I was making fun of you thinking that is what evolution says.

    But you need not worry about that - you have all the knowledge you need. wink

    Although - make your mind up.

    Do you rely on faith - or did you work out for yourself that a higher being must have created us therefore evolution in "full of holes" or " not 100%" ?

    Be honest.

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      that's a nice 180 compared to your recent post for the last year or so.  Thought you an avid believer that humans evolved from chimps?

      1. Mark Knowles profile image59
        Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        LOL

        That is because you have never read or understood a word I have said. Because you already have all the knowledge you need. wink

        Now read some of what evolutionary theory actually says rather than whatever your preacher told you it says.

        1. profile image0
          sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          yeah yeah sure Mark!  You said it all the time.  big_smile  But hey, if you say you were wrong I wont think poorly of ya.  After all you only eat one baby a week. big_smile

          1. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            No sweetie. I never said it. But I understand why you need to say I did. Please quote me saying we are descended from chimps.

            1. profile image0
              sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this
              1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                Please quote me saying we descended from chimps. Humans are primates - as are chimps - and we both descended from a common ancestor.

                Did you even read what I wrote?

                Or do you already have all the knowledge you need from your book?

                1. profile image0
                  sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  OMG!  Your soo funny! big_smile 



                  My bad, you said apes, not chimps.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    This seems to be you using the word "chimp" - not me.

                    And technically - Hominidae and Hylobatidae are both hominoids.

                    Both we and the chimps are members of the family homininae. For want of a better term - cousins. big_smile

          2. countrywomen profile image60
            countrywomenposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Sandra- Is that a typo baby? Did you actually want to mean baby carrots/tomatoes/corn.... smile

            1. profile image0
              sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              No, it's a joke from another thread. big_smile

              1. countrywomen profile image60
                countrywomenposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                WOW!! You are multi faceted as sufi just said. I can't keep track of so many threads at the same time. Sandra you rock http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_2_10.gif

                1. profile image0
                  sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  Aww CW, you are so sweet.  Every time you send love I get a warm and fuzzy feeling. big_smile  right back atcha!  3

                  1. countrywomen profile image60
                    countrywomenposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    You are a sweet angel http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g24/LisaMznutz/Smilies/angelnot.gif
                    and even you give me a nice happy feeling http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g24/LisaMznutz/Smilies/weee.gif

      2. Sufidreamer profile image81
        Sufidreamerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Proof that we evolved from apes.....

        http://bp2.blogger.com/_y6j1OSIl9bc/SAzmkUAz_GI/AAAAAAAAApQ/xIwMBxDr49s/s320/Ian+Brown+%28Unfinished+Monkey+Business+-+Front%29.jpg

        1. profile image0
          sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          lol

        2. profile image0
          pgrundyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Sufi, do you think there might be ape/people internet dating services? I mean, I'm thinking there's a business opportunity there...Some of those chimps are pretty cute. smile

          1. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Takes all sorts - although, I am pretty sure that will be a sin.....

          2. Sufidreamer profile image81
            Sufidreamerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Ian Brown is such a musical genius that I would happily have his babies.....

            oops - that should have been on the same-sex marriage thread big_smile

            1. profile image0
              pgrundyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              OMG now we even have separate threads merging! The HP forums are TRULY polymorphous perverse!

              (But then I guess most of us already knew that.)

              big_smile

              1. Sufidreamer profile image81
                Sufidreamerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                I blame Sandra - we were having a clean conversation until she turned up big_smile

                1. profile image0
                  sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  Should we revert back to alcohol?  Drinks on me. big_smile  sorry, please accept this offering as my way of saying sorry...  so you will forget later. big_smile LOL

                  1. Sufidreamer profile image81
                    Sufidreamerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    lol

                    Forget what? big_smile

    2. belief713 profile image77
      belief713posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Ok, so you do understand that I don't think we come from monkeys then? (sometimes words, without emotions, get confusing) I don't think that's what evolution says, it's just usually the largest topic up for debate.

      I think some of evolution makes sense. We have evolved, it's obvious.



      Honestly, it was a question in my mind at times, but I personally believe that "God's word will not return VOID." The Bible was the first book my mom read to me, and the first one I read for myself from cover to cover. So, for what I'd think are obvious reasons, it makes sense why my foundation of beliefs stems from the Bible. I can't say I've never doubted it - I'd be lying. But I've witnessed (visual proof - as in miracles) too many things thus far in my life to lead me to believe any differently. If you were to take all that away and just leave me with documents to critique, I could see how it's easy to get confused and mislead.

      Any time I try to make sense of it all, it never does! LOL So, I resorted to faith!

      1. Mark Knowles profile image59
        Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Sorry - you lost me. We evolved. I agree. So we were not created the way we are. Monkeys are primates - as are we - descended from a common ancestor.

        Miracles -  Care to give an example? I will carefully deconstruct it in such a way as to take some of the apparent mystery away and show you there was no divine intervention. smile

        1. belief713 profile image77
          belief713posted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Sure! Explain this one:

          This past summer we moved. We ended up having to keep the moving truck a day longer, make a second trip (37 miles each way), all of which we could not afford. And to make matters worse, we had to bring the truck we rented back on a FULL TANK. We had almost completed both trips and were on the way to bring the truck back Monday morning at 8am. On the way there, we made plans to stop and get gas. Mind you, we'd traveled just over 110 miles by now, so the gas tank gauge was somewhere between 1/2 tank and 3/4 of a tank. And this was when gas was just over $5/gallon for diesel. Mind you, we're really tight on money and only have enough to pay for the rental. So, on the way back we're (me and my hubby) driving and both literally WATCH the gas gauge bounce from between 1/2 and 3/4 of a tank to a notch below full!! I still can't believe it, but it's not the first time it's happened (I can give you at least 2 other occurrences when gas appeared in my CAR [not rental truck] out of no where). So, we get to the gas station, fill up, and the total comes to $25.19! How? Impossible! Explain that one... then we get to the rental place to return the truck and instead of charging us for two days, we only get charged for one. Some may not consider that a miracle, but I do. And when you only have a few dollars left to your name, anything that saves you money is a miracle!
             

          I can give you more if you'd like...

          1. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            You and your husband's inability to correctly estimate how little fuel a diesel engine can use when driven carefully does not really constitute as a miracle. Although I am entertained by the notion that some super being stops by occasionally to fill your gas tank.

            Traveled 110 miles and used 5 gallons equals around 22 miles per gallon. Here in Europe we laugh at such massive consumption.

            My friend has a 2 litre diesel engine in a station wagon that regularly returns almost three times that.

            I suppose that is proof that there is a god? lol

            1. belief713 profile image77
              belief713posted 8 years agoin reply to this

              Yeah, you're right, I had no idea how to estimate how much gas a diesel engine would burn seeing as though I've never used one before, and since has been my only encounter with one.

              Ok, so now you broke it down to 22 miles per gallon, even though you may want to re-read what I wrote, because I'm not sure if I did only use 5 gallons. Actually, I know I used more, but anyway.... Explain to me then how the gas meter went up and how a (about) 148 mile trip resulted in me only paying $25.19 @ $5 per gallon! Up for that?

              1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                OK - So you used 5 gallons of fuel ($25/$5=5 gallons) and actually traveled 148 miles (sorry I took it as 110 a la first post).

                148 miles and 5 gallons equals 29.6 miles per gallon. Not an unreasonable amount of fuel for a carefully driven diesel engine I would think.

                Most fuel gauges have just one sensor in the fuel tank which guesstimates the amount of fuel left - depending on the angle that the tank is sitting at this can show different amounts and I guess they are only really accurate if the vehicle is in a dead level position. Try going up and then down a hill in your car and see if the fuel tank reads the same going up and down.

          2. Paraglider profile image89
            Paragliderposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Belief713 - I would be too proud to accept miracles from a god who topped up my fuel tank while allowing children to step on land mines. Or is that just another of his mysterious ways?

            1. belief713 profile image77
              belief713posted 8 years agoin reply to this

              Well, Paraglider, pride is a cunning and wicked thing - one that I try not to surrender myself to. And God doesn't control our free will, we do.

              I too don't agree with children stepping on landmines or thousands, heck millions, of innocent people being killed. And I honestly can't explain it. I also ask myself "why does God allow certain things to happen?" I, myself, am going through a series of events in my life right now that have allowed me to question God on occasion - which as humans, is completely natural.

              I don't even think it's so much of a mysterious way. I do think it's a trick of the devil to cause people to doubt God though. That's the devils plan - to steal, destroy, kill. God's objective is in fact the exact opposite. What he does with situations like that is use what the enemy intended for bad and use it for good. How, don't know? I'm not God - you have to get with Him on that one. The whole idea of Him being an infinite being anyway means things will happen that we can't explain.

              Thanks for speaking up though! Wish I had a better answer.

              1. Paraglider profile image89
                Paragliderposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                Hmm, so your answer is that the Devil makes children step on landmines while God is busy on your fuel tank. But that's OK, because God knows best.

                1. belief713 profile image77
                  belief713posted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  That's not what I'm trying to say at all, but if that's how you want to take it, fine.

                2. quicksand profile image84
                  quicksandposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  Sooooo very confusing, is it not? lol

            2. profile image0
              sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              It seems like you and so many others expect God to come and control everything and make everything nice and wonderful and without pain or suffering, without longing or anything that is bad, right?  If it were this way then you would probably be more apt to believing, however at the same time you do not want to be controlled, you want to do things your way, you want to be able to think for yourselves, you want to be yourself.

              So God grants it in the free will clause.  You can do what you want, when you want, for whatever reason you want, you can believe what you want because, being God, well He already knows that people want to do their own thing.

              They want choices they want to learn by their own understandings, they want to make things, build things, eat things, travel places, do whatever it is a human can do and they want to know they did it on their own will.  So it was granted, and we do.

              So on mans own free will despite the commandment that God saw fit to keep people from hurting each other, from the problems arising in creating wars because of covets made way back to our earliest known "civilized" world (maybe Mesopotamia) out of which rose the thoughts of politics and mans need to control each other, to have what was neither theirs or ours to begin with.

              And after all the fighting which still goes on today and all the heartbreak and the sadness and the apparent "evils" ( I use the word lightly for lack of better words)  of the world which are obvious, then they say there is no God. 

              While others say, yes there is if you would listen.  They say, why should we listen to this god who has done nothing for us but look at this mess.  Look at all those people who hurt people for some god that doesn't exist, why should I believe this, what point is there.

              And then all I could say is because no matter what you think you know, via science of the natural world.  What wonders God works come from the man's own mind to understand and his want to either be better or to continue on down the road in things that lead to disaster. 

              So God granted the one thing that all people want.  Their independence, freedoms, their will but man is corrupt by the nature of his own thoughts.

              But things like this are just statements made to the wind because as people, we don't want to be wrong, we just want to be.  And so it is. big_smile

              1. Paraglider profile image89
                Paragliderposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                No. Entirely wrong, in fact. If I ever come to believe in a God, then I might  have expectations pertaining to his agenda. Till then, I'll 'expect' humans to address human issues.
                Out of interest, from your 'God exists' perspective, why is he OK with innocent children stepping on land-mines?

                1. profile image0
                  sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  He's not Paraglider.  Those are things that you believe.  big_smile

                  1. Paraglider profile image89
                    Paragliderposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    It's not about belief. I know there are children stepping on land mines. I know there is someone on this forum who believes god is a personal fuel pump attendant but who "doesn't have an answer" to the land-mine question. That's why I raised the issue.

  8. profile image0
    pgrundyposted 8 years ago

    I bet he's still very close, even if only in your thoughts. Look how he guides your thinking even now? That is true inspiration and true immortality.

    But for Mark's sake, I feel I should say something mean now...dammit I can't. I just can't be mean to you CW. You're too darn sweet.

    Sorry Mark. sad

    It's CW's fault. She's too nice.

    1. countrywomen profile image60
      countrywomenposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Yes that is so true that real immortality is to live in someone's memory positively forever (I say positive since even Adolf Hitler would be remembered but not for positive reasons) wink

      Btw Pam I know you don't ever mean to be mean to anyone (a little pun for the weekends sake) and I just saw the earlier comment by sufi too. Thanks sufi and we are planning to go to tulips gardens this weekend hence really looking forward to this weekend (I just hope our Seattle rainy weather doesn't play spoilsport with our plans) big_smile

      1. Sufidreamer profile image81
        Sufidreamerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        It is cold and wet here, with torrential rain - the worst April in living memory sad

        The forum is doing that freaky thing of quotes within quotes within quotes - I hate that.

        1. countrywomen profile image60
          countrywomenposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Well in Seattle it is pretty common and I guess if we don't have a cold/wet day we are lucky. I am really looking forward to summer. About grandpa the feeling is mutual. Nowadays kids spend so much time indoors and when I was a kid on a vacation my grandpa used to take us for long walks(the best days of my life). Btw you guys are always nice and especially you Sufi have the temperament of a sage. If there is someone whom I envy for there knowledge and temperament then it is you. http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/6879/bowdowntj8.gif

          1. Sufidreamer profile image81
            Sufidreamerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks, CW - you make me blush.

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/606/2/refresh/images/smileys/f_blush.gif

            Sadly, most of my temperament lies at the bottom of a bottle of Ouzo http://www.bbc.co.uk/606/2/refresh/images/smileys/f_bubbly.gif

            1. countrywomen profile image60
              countrywomenposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              You are dead right on the target about your earlier prediction. The conversation did end in a bottle of your favorite liquid. Have a great weekend and hope you have warm/dry weekend. http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b94/mybusiness/Smilies/sunningsmilie.gif

  9. Sufidreamer profile image81
    Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago

    I know exactly how you feel, CW - my Granddad was a great man, too.

    Sadly missed sad

    Trying to think of something mean to say to CW........



    erm...........



    I will get back to you on that one.

  10. Shalini Kagal profile image80
    Shalini Kagalposted 8 years ago

    Strange how the students keep changing! big_smile

    http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp

    1. mohitmisra profile image54
      mohitmisraposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      nice smile

  11. Onusonus profile image85
    Onusonusposted 8 years ago

    I always wonder how they build an entire dinosaur out of a single tooth.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I was not aware they had built a dinosaur from a single tooth. Care to elaborate?

  12. Andrew0208 profile image57
    Andrew0208posted 8 years ago

    Faith remains a Spirit walk. How do you expect an atheist who only operates in the realms of his self(mind) and evolution to explain his/her ignnorance of the Spirit beyond his/her knowledge and understanding.
    No wonder it doesn't exist in his(professor) literal world. Do you know a professor is still a profound scholar? He will yet know the unseen realities that have posed a big question with several heated debate for him. What an unending search for this atheist prof.

  13. Lifebydesign profile image63
    Lifebydesignposted 8 years ago

    I suppose in short then my reply is it is self-evident truth as I see it that we can believe in God if we understand what our relationship is to Him. And it isn't to assume He is the one allowing tragedies to happen.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      But - you are missing the point once again.

      Just so I get it straight - he does allow miraculous self-filling gas tanks.

      Self evident? Not really sure I understood that one. To me it is self-evident that there is no such thing as god. Is that what you mean?

      1. Lifebydesign profile image63
        Lifebydesignposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        fair enough - then I'm not really sure what the underlying question/point is...?

        If miracles are possible, who's to say this isn't one? If we could exclude through careful study and science other possibilities for this occuring then sure I wasn't there but I don't have a problem with entertaining that it might have some underlying unexplainability. And if it was divine intervention, why not?

        To me its self-evident, from what I've gleaned and understand, that there is a possibility of there being a God. I take it further and say yes there is a God. So I find it self-evident, based on my own investigations.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          OK. I am obviously not making myself clear.

          Of course now you raise another question which is more closely allied to the original question. What is faith?

          Why does it satisfy your curiosity to say that something unexplainable was divine intervention?

          And why should your magical invisible super being concern itself with the amount of gas in a gas tank yet ignore the children of Paraglider's example?

          And you think this is worth worshipping?

          I am keen to know what investigations you have done that have made you sure there is a god.

          1. Lifebydesign profile image63
            Lifebydesignposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Faith is akin to trust, a suspension of disbelief about any previously held notions, about belief.

            I'm not really curious about the gas tank to be honest because the explanations, whether scientific or other, that I can come up with and people have mentioned are all plausible to me.

            I don't need to keep thinking with my head on this one, or seeking proof for why it may have occured on a very intellectual level. We could start talking about prayer, there's a big one...!

            I don't think the super being is ignoring the plights of children. But is this the clincher? If this super being dropped a hand and picked up the children out of harm's way would this prove His existence to every single person?
            Perhaps, in which case we wouldn't be having this discussion about faith, or prayer or supplication.
            We would 'know' it to be true and be comfortable without having to take a blind leap of faith. Where's the choice there?

            1. Lifebydesign profile image63
              Lifebydesignposted 8 years agoin reply to this
              1. earnestshub profile image87
                earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                I  think that learning is a life time thing and if we keep an open mind we do not wind up with religion, we individuate and become whole within self.

            2. Mark Knowles profile image59
              Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              You are missing the point completely.

              Whether or not god steps down and prevents the children from being blown up has nothing to do with anything unless you are prepared to take the self filling gas tank as a miracle and proof wink

              But - I agree - faith is the suspension of disbelief. And accepting a non-answer to the question.

              Whatever the question is the answer is "god did it" - which is no answer at all.

              I personally am not interested in accepting this non-answer. It is certainly the easy option. Prevents you from having to think.

              Purpouse and meaning of life?

              lol

              God did it and he wants you to suspend disbelief and honor him? lol

              The purpouse of your life is to not ask any questions?

              I am still keen to know these "investigations" you have done. Although - am I right in saying that you did not do any - you just suspended disbelief?

              Actually - yes - this is it. Make the most of it wink

              1. Lifebydesign profile image63
                Lifebydesignposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                Well, I'll do my best wink...

                One instance of a self-fulfilling tank wouldn't convince me per se. Maybe if something like this happened to me directly it'd be sufficient (if I was wondering perhaps, and if that was my secret question to God - 'do this and I'll believe in you'). Of course for someone else they might require another convincer, something more obvious and less explainable, whatever. And what you seem to be saying is, this is absolutely not enough for you. Sure, and why not it's really is quite a deep personal thing.
                But it takes us back to the purpose of our lives – to know and recognise God, which is what religions have been extolling since they first appeared. It doesn’t matter to God whether we do or not, our actions or non-actions don’t affect Him, but they affect us.

                Btw how would you know that you hadn't experienced your own little miracles as such but you'd written if off via another explanation.

                So we're talking now is there a God? And if so prove it? Answer the question that sooo many people have in one smooth answer?
                huh. hmmm. this won't be smooth but I'll give it a shot...

                Consider the mineral, plant and animal kingdoms for example, and humans. The minerals are unable to understand the reality of plants (substance and growth), and plants can’t understand the reality of animals and their power of movement. And animals cannot comprehend the power of reasoning. So difference of condition can be an obstacle to understanding something of a superior nature. A table cannot understand the nature of the carpenter who created it. That doesn’t mean the carpenter doesn’t exist. And so the same could be said about man in relation to God.

                I think questioning and personal search and investigation for the truth is essential. But my personal questions, my own quest and their answers would not be sufficient for you.? I can tell you about one pivotal moment when I knew with a certainty after wondering and searching and looking. But personally, those particular questions have been answered, and my questions and investigations are different now.
                How far back do you want me to go? Evolution and science, creation, now? What and where is the crux of the issue? 

                Love, beauty and orderliness these are some of the attributes of God and signs of His existence (like the 'mind' story above).
                Maybe the question is; what is it that one finds hard to accept that presupposes there is a God? Or, what proofs does one have regarding the absence of God?

                As to the purpose of life, I think its definitely related to what we decide to believe (in). For me, according to my Faith, its to develop our inner attributes and virtues. Left to our own devices man's inhumanity to man would kick in. I suppose that helps clinch my belief: that we are made for greater things, that we can display goodness and kindness and compassion to one another, that part of our purpose is to grow in character, and yes to recognise God. (And if religions appear to disagree, its personal interpretation and perceived differences- coming as they do from the same source- not the message of the religion per se).

                Mark, we could go on, and I may never get your point..smile.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                  Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  This is untrue. You have taken this from the presupposition that there is a god. And I think you must have mistaken what religions do. If anything - they provide the opposite. Building a great big stone edifice in god's honor and kneeling on the floor once a week? Please.



                  The behaviors of most people who claim to believe is a good start. A complete absence of proof of a god is another good one.


                  Left to our own devices?

                  Sorry - can't accept this. I take responsibility for not being inhuman to others. And I do not need you or any other religion to tell me what I should do.

                  Are you seriously saying that people who believe in a god behave in any way more humanely towards their fellow man than people who do not?

                  1. Lifebydesign profile image63
                    Lifebydesignposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    Well maybe you've missed my points.

                    Religions cannot be blamed for what people do.

                    Seriously I'm not saying that. Many people don't believe in God and behave humanely (but what exactly is the definition of 'humanely' anyway? A little white lie acceptable, stealing from someone who doesn't believe in God ok?, being rude to your neighbour who kicks your dog or disagrees with you fine? What's the boundary of humane? Your definition? Mine?) Plus, this could also be taken to prove His existence. That we are capable of these things, that we can recognise them within ourselves and act accordingly does not disprove God. Religion provides a guideline, a prescription. In fact 'if religion is a cause of disunity it is better that there is be no religion' Baha'i Faith. So when we argue we argue, 'religion' didn't make us do it.

      2. Andrew0208 profile image57
        Andrew0208posted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Sometimes, it's very rediculus seeing such questions as What is Faith? And Who is a Christian? being hijacked by people who proclaim there're no existence of both respectively.

        Unbelievers who know nothing about what doesn't exist in their world try to educate same. The question is What is Faith? These questions can only be explained better if you know and have faith. We can start to examine what faith is from the book of books of which "faith" is grossly associated with;

        Hebrews 11:1-6 (King James Version)

        1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

        2. For by it the elders obtained a good report.

        3. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

        4. By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

        5. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

        6. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

        1. earnestshub profile image87
          earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          So anyone who hasn't heard of your god is doomed?

          1. Andrew0208 profile image57
            Andrew0208posted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Great you've heard. The gospel of faith and His saving power will definitely get to the ends of the earth. Believing a wise choice.

            1. earnestshub profile image87
              earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              What are you talking about? Believer? In your god? Not likely!

  14. SparklingJewel profile image64
    SparklingJewelposted 8 years ago

    Humanity is given the power of choice (free will) to do with the Energy of Universal Love/God as they decide. So humanity pays the price for using the Energy in ways that are not in accordance with the Universal Order of Love/God's Will.

    Until enough people wake up and decide to take the actions that are of Love and not anti-Love, the prices will continue to be paid by whomever is caught in the crossfire and eventually paid by those that created the environment of anti-love.

    Through faith, humanity believes in the Order, regardless of the timing in the material world. That faith continues to drive the Order, as Shiva, destroying all that is less than within the Universal Order. And to me, faith drives me to pray and act to help get whomever may be caught in the crossfire, out of the way of the destruction, spiritually, mentally, emotionally and physically.

  15. John Juneau profile image75
    John Juneauposted 8 years ago

    I have never seen a hub generate this many comments.  I will try to keep this short.

    First, there are no conflicts between science and the Bible.  Through the ages there have been scientists who thought what they discovered conflicted with scripture, and there have also been church leaders who thought so.  Such mistakes were typically because they were unfamiliar with some portions of scripture or they were drawing conclusions from scripture that were not supported by the scripture itself.

    As for evolution, the concepts put forth by Darwin and those who still cling to his thinking make up a theory, and not a very good one.  There are myriad problems with the theory, but one simple matter is the fact that, as things change over time, the direction is not from chaos or lack of form to greater complexity and better function, it is the opposite.

    As for faith, it is true that to trust God totally in all circumstances takes faith.  Such faith can develop as one's personal relationship with God develops.  However, most of us (maybe all of us) will sometimes fail to fully embrace that faith.  But to pretend that God does not exist is absolute foolishness.  Even a modest study of cosmology, for example, presents compelling evidence of the Creator.  That is just one area of study.  The more one studies nature and any of the sciences, the more evident God becomes.  As the scriptures tell us, His existence and even His character can be understood by by simply observing creation.

    1. Paraglider profile image89
      Paragliderposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I think you are alluding to entropy? It is true that within any closed system the total entropy increases with time. That isn't an argument against evolution. All you are doing is misapplying the second law of thermodynamics.


      Pretence is certainly foolishness, but who's pretending? My study of cosmology yields a reasonable understanding of the universe, but, thus far, no evidence of a creator.

    2. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      The blowing up of children being an example of his nature? lol

      But back to the question which none of you believers seem willing to answer.

      Faith is a belief in something in which there is a total lack of proof or evidence for.

      Compelling evidence? Such as ?

      And actually - you are the fool. Pretending to believe in an invisible super being because you cannot open your mind  to the wonders of nature and see that there are other possibilities.

      Which I guess makes you a close minded fool. wink

      1. Lifebydesign profile image63
        Lifebydesignposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Faith is a related to trust, and trust is related to evidences that an individual holds true and compelling.
        Isn't it also true that if we look for what we know, that's what we find. You're right about opening the mind so
        in lieu of a long reply re my own compelling evidence and perhaps not really getting what it is you're asking, what is the heart of the question Mark? Is it about the actual existence of God?

        And what are the wonders of nature you mentioned? I feel the same way but I suspect our explanations will differ?! lol

  16. Lgali profile image40
    Lgaliposted 8 years ago

    Prayer is the key to Heaven, but faith unlocks the door

  17. Make  Money profile image76
    Make Moneyposted 8 years ago

    That's a nice saying Lgali.  It reminds me of James 2:26

  18. aka-dj profile image78
    aka-djposted 8 years ago

    "In the beginning, God....." That's how (most versions of) The Bible starts. Down the "track", He has "fellowship" with (the first) man He created. That relationship was broken by (the sin of) disobedience.
    Religion, in ANY form, is nothing more than man's best (and yet,very feeble) attempt to re-connect that relationship. The atheists fight any notion of (a god) for their own reason(s). However, due to the nature of man(kind), he has an in-build yearning for that relationship. 90+% of humanity believes in god (of whatever description one wants to give it/him).
    http://hubpages.com/hub/An-atheists-guide-to-religion is a good example to read.
    This is NOT proof that He exists, but neither is any argument (against) proof that He does NOT exist.
    Religion cannot re-establish the relationship. It can only be re-established on His terms, not ours. He HAS made that "way" very clear. But of course, it becomes a matter of faith, (which is personal, and subjective).

  19. mecheil profile image60
    mecheilposted 8 years ago

    I wonder if there is any scientist who ever thought how accurate the Bible spoke of things science haven't uncovered prior the Bible writers penned them.

    think...
    >Bible explained water cycle even before scientists knew of evaporation and condensation.
    >Bible told earth is circular and hangs upon nothing even before Ferdinand Magellan proved it was so.

    And have any of these scientists known of things to come like the Bible does with accuracy.
    think...
    >Bible speaks of a certain Cyrus to cause the fall of mighty Babylon some 200 years before the catastrophe happened.

    Science cannot even predict earthquake.

    1. Paraglider profile image89
      Paragliderposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      1. Please provide chapter & verse where the bible 'explains water cycle'
      2. The Earth is not circular. It is spherical (but imperfect).

      1. Mark Knowles profile image59
        Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Not another flat earth proponent? lol

        1. Paraglider profile image89
          Paragliderposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Apparently ...

  20. aka-dj profile image78
    aka-djposted 8 years ago

    You are answering the OP's original Q? Ye?

    1. Paraglider profile image89
      Paragliderposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      No. I answered that on page 1 and page 5. I'm answering a more recent poster who says that the bible explains 'the water cycle' and that the earth is circular. I left you an answer in Science forum 'Please Explain', about the big bang, by the way.

      1. aka-dj profile image78
        aka-djposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        I did read that. Just can't remember if I replied to it or not. I just watched a program on Discover Science on strig theory. Fascinating! One professor said (in effect) that science is what you do in a test tube, and the rest belongs in the realm of phylosophy. They were exploring the wekness of "gravitrons", and how one theory is exploring multiple dimensions (not quite) touching each other.
        I guess (know) there IS room for me in the here and now. (with all my twisted and misguided beliefs and all)LOL lol

  21. Lifebydesign profile image63
    Lifebydesignposted 8 years ago

    True, 'should' is vile (unless very very appropriate eg you shouldn't kill, you can if you like, but you shouldn't, and only when in really good rapport with someone lol) Personally though I haven't seen 'should' anywhere.
    It's (obviously) a word brought down in someone's translation, in a parent's tone and I wish I had known better, earlier. Anyway the intent (often) when people use it is to instill a sense of guilt, because they don't know how else to communicate some desire or want and instill and inspire a more appropriate sense or feeling of wanting to do well, create beauty, excellence or do something higher, better, imaginative.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      This is more a product of the times it was written in I think. It is hard to read the bible without getting "should" from it.

      But - that is the problem with religions - what they "should" teach is self reliance, self exploration and personal responsibility. smile

      Which is what I think the original intentions were.

      Unfortunately - it is too good a deal to pass up - human nature being what it is - exactly the same as god's lol

      1. Lifebydesign profile image63
        Lifebydesignposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        I think they do. We were just too busy trying to determine who knows what self-reliance, self-exploration and responsibility really means, and who is authorised to interpret it for the masses. Religion has really moved on now Mark, Baha'is don't have clergy for one.



        Oh, and here we differ too! smile

  22. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 8 years ago

    Love is indeed a verb, well said.

    1. aka-dj profile image78
      aka-djposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      John 3;16 say "for God so loved the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life"
      It's often called the "ultimater sacrifice". We revere men of honor, and valor, who give their lives for (us) freedom etc.
      Now that's the ULTIMATE verb, giving ones life (or son) for another.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image59
        Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Pretty pathetic if you ask me. What sort of a feeble god can only manage one son?

        Not that you are being controlled by thinking you will have everlasting life or anything.........

        1. aka-dj profile image78
          aka-djposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          I didn't ask you. hmm You keep telling us how you syudied the Bible and all, you should know how and why "ONE" son!
          This kind of control is different to the one others have posted. They were referring to "leaders" dominating the masses (et al) asp er their intended meanings.
          I don't mind the "eternal life" part one bit. Looking forward to it, when my time comes. smile

          1. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            It is fair to say - this is what wars have been fought over. wink

            All a matter of interpretation wouldn't you say.

            But no - this has never made any sense to me. And is one of the founding points of my atheism. Sorry - it is complete rubbish, written to control the masses.

            There is only one sun.

            At least we only knew of one sun when the story of jesus was stolen. wink

  23. cindyvine profile image89
    cindyvineposted 8 years ago

    Faith is subconciously knowing without relying on evidence

    1. Lifebydesign profile image63
      Lifebydesignposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I agree cindyvine.
      The question's become 'why' and 'how'. Plus others. smile

      1. profile image0
        sandra rinckposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        I know, I know... why not?  lol big_smile

        1. Lifebydesign profile image63
          Lifebydesignposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Indeed! smile

    2. aka-dj profile image78
      aka-djposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Do you believe that consciously, or subconsciously?
      Were you taught this or did you just make it up?

    3. dingdong profile image61
      dingdongposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      What does knowledge do there?!

  24. Misha profile image76
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    Wow Sandy, we finally got a pic of you that I might even like smile

    1. Lifebydesign profile image63
      Lifebydesignposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Me too! smile

      1. Mark Knowles profile image59
        Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Me three big_smile

  25. mohamedhmm profile image53
    mohamedhmmposted 8 years ago

    The faith; just believe in one One God-the father- and doing good deeds...

    1. Paraglider profile image89
      Paragliderposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Or just do good deeds.

      1. belief713 profile image77
        belief713posted 8 years agoin reply to this

        @ Paraglider - But without the faith, good deeds = ? Not faith, just good deeds.

        Come on Mark, you can at least capitalize Jesus - it's a name, so it would be gramatically correct. smile Even if we can't "prove" He rose again, He still was a person & that was His name.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Tell you what - you un-capitalize "His" and I will do so smile

          1. belief713 profile image77
            belief713posted 8 years agoin reply to this

            LOL I had a feeling you would say something about that... smile Seriously though, why won't you capitalize the name? I can understand why the he, his, etc may annoy you, but what about just the name Jesus? Just curious.

            (I know, off topic, shame on me)

            1. Mark Knowles profile image59
              Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              Somebody called me a mirror. smile

              I tend to do that. Although I suspect you are working that out. Sure - it upsets a few people, and I have been attacked - here, in the real world and at some of my sites, but you are the first to have noticed that one big_smile

              People capitalize Him, I do the opposite. smile

              1. belief713 profile image77
                belief713posted 8 years agoin reply to this

                Not sure I understand what you meant. (did it go over my head?)



                Am I really the first here? Wow.

                Sorry you've been attacked, I don't know if it warrants an attack. I was just curious as to your reasoning behind it. You must have a good reason (other than just for fun).

                Well, something worked because, I got you to capitalize Him big_smile

                1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                  Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  Oh - when I say Him, I am talking of the One True God.

                  http://www.venganza.org/images/wallpapers/noodledoodle1024_768.jpg

                  1. Raven King profile image61
                    Raven Kingposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    Nice image.
                    big_smile

  26. Raven King profile image61
    Raven Kingposted 8 years ago

    Faith is the belief without the proof, but I think there are different levels of proof.

  27. Klniksta profile image55
    Klnikstaposted 8 years ago

    That is one of the coolest stories, god is at work in that professors heart, and remeber faith is not always seeing but believing Stay strong everyone

  28. Research Analyst profile image79
    Research Analystposted 8 years ago

    Absolute belief in something unseen but manifest.

  29. Make  Money profile image76
    Make Moneyposted 8 years ago

    Yeah that is a cool story.  It seems it even takes faith for an atheist to believe in evolution.  I bet that professor did some deep thinking after his lecture from the student. smile

  30. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago

    At the moment I am under the impression that "Faith" is another name for Jesus.

  31. ReuVera profile image84
    ReuVeraposted 8 years ago

    Dear people, it is a gorgeous day outside (at least in my corner of the world). I’ve just put washed laundry out and it will smell like a sun when it dries. I am going to grill out later with my friends.  Then I will study for my final exam (oh, gosh, the more you study our body structure and function, the more you get an idea, now miraculously perfectly designed it is, hint, hint…)
    Anyway, why to argue about something that everyone has his own entitled opinion about? One thing is obvious for everyone and it is that we all will die some time.
    So, when we die, we’ll know all the answers.
    Why argue now? Life is too precious, let’s enjoy it. After all, you are not fanatics, are you?
    Have a nice day!

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      OK. We agree then. There is no god, and we were not "designed" because it is a pretty lousy design.......

      Still - a lovely day where I am too. Nature has seen fit to persuade me I need sit in the sun drinking Pastis and reading my book for a while. big_smile

  32. JYOTI KOTHARI profile image77
    JYOTI KOTHARIposted 8 years ago

    Faith is not always ignorance. Everything can also not be proved. God is not the topic of the scientists. Scientists do research on materialistic world that can be known by our senses and machines. There are many things beyond this and God is one of them.
    It is up to one whether he or she believes on God or not. This is an endless debate.
    Thanks,
    Jyoti Kothari

    1. mohamedhmm profile image53
      mohamedhmmposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      ====
      Science and religion like coin sides; each side lead to anothor;
      and that's clear in Islam; and that's the real problem in christianity when the church denied the science for long times....

    2. mohitmisra profile image54
      mohitmisraposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      This is proved by the uncertainty principle by scientists, they can never get an accurate measurement and so will allways be limited in their findings.This is why the future cannot be predicted. smile Basically what you are trying to measure gets distorted by what you are measuring with. smile

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        An accurate measurement?The belief in god is based on nothing resembling proof.

        1. mohitmisra profile image54
          mohitmisraposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Can't you see the proof all around you.?
          "If you could see the magic in just one flower your life would change drastically"- Buddha .

          1. earnestshub profile image87
            earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            No I do not see what is as the work of your deity at all, and would suggest that you draw a long bow in doing so, especially in light of current thinking.

            1. mohitmisra profile image54
              mohitmisraposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              You need intelligence  and humility to see.

              1. earnestshub profile image87
                earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                Two traits which you have in abundance no doubt!

                1. mohitmisra profile image54
                  mohitmisraposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  You are stupid.

                  1. earnestshub profile image87
                    earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    And you sir are a complete waste of oxygen.

 
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