Over the past few days I have been witness to and taken part in some pretty lively debates about using scripture to chastise and condemn those who disagree with someone's particular view or belief. During these debates people have been banned, insulted, and made fool of. However the debate rages on. I have been advised that the animosity is not towards those who use scripture in the above mentioned way but is actually a plot of the vocal majority to silence anyone reading, spreading, or believing in scripture. As a Christian myself and a Bible believer so to speak, I have not been the target of this animosity, in fact the only anger I have brushed up against is those so called believers, that see my stance on tolerance and patience as contrary to God's will and word and am in fact hampering God's message and failing to act in love.
So weigh in Hubbers do you all hate scripture or could it be something else, maybe a reaction to the method of its delivery and the person behind it.
I don't hate scripture. I don't hate believers and I don't hate nonbelievers. Not worth the effort. I taught my kids that ANYTHING could be used as a weapon. Anything. Scriptures and words are too often used as weapons. So, with that in mind, I do no agree that using weapons to preach The Word is a good idea. Nor is using anything else as a weapon to enforce it is a good idea either.
So, then, as anything can be used as a weapon, anything can ultimately become a tool for good, a blessing, or way to show us how to move forward. Just all in how you want to look at it.
That's my take on the subject.
it's all in the delivery.
no one's going to want to listen to you (editorial 'you') if you are pounding your message into them with a hammer.
An interesting thought. Hammer! Oh yea. Communist's hammer, remember? It is symbol of beating and advancing. But even we are on the way to it, communism will not last too long. But memory of suffering will last very long. Vladimir
depending upon what the message is, the messenger can feel that there is an urgency for the delivery to be completed.
sometimes there are too many messengers feeling this way with nothing new to say.
There is two kinds of people: religious and biblical believers. It is easy to slide to religion if we are not on guard. I usually do not quote too much scripture. Everyone is intelligent enough to find it, if needed. I am definitely against using the scripture against brothers. That's not only unethical but frankly said sin. The Christians should be very careful. The scripture is for edification, building others.
As far as concern of witnessing we do not have to introduce sin but Jesus. It is Holy Spirit's job.
I just wrote the hub Being Positive. Then I must live what I preach.
I believe that people don't want to hear what the scripture says because they don't want to face their personal down falls.
Reading, studying the bible fills you with love, faith and personal responsibility to improve yourself. People don't want to "change" so they don't want to hear about the things God expects from them.
I use to believe my life was fun when I worked in the casinos, hung out with friends and drank...all the time. But those friends all left when I decided to give up the drinking. Nobody was there; when I really needed someone I turned to God and my life changed for the better.
Through prayer and faith in him I have become a totally new person with a family and great life. I have friends that want to be there for me no matter what I am going through and family I love deeply.
When I have trouble in my life I don't stress; I rely and lean on him even more and trust that things will be fine.
He has wrapped me in a life that is like a "blanket" of protection and I wake each morning very Thankful for HIM!
wisdom should be excepted in whatever form it appears.why debate the source of a truth as long as it's the truth.
I love The Truth.....The Truth is a PERSON.
Even if you're not a Christian, there is always something to be learned from Scripture . . . but the same can be said of any piece of comprehensive literature. And in regard to literature, there are always a variety of interpretations to be made.
Well said, Jonathan. Scott, I am certain that the folks on here don't hate scripture. The hubbers, though, love to have intelligent discussions with folks who share a different viewpoint from them. But how can one engage in an intelligent discussion when others respond to tough questions by tossing scripture in everyone's face? You don't see folks in the political forums answering heated questions by regurgitating gobs of legal statutes. They may discuss, interpret and convey the essence of them, but that's about it.
Wow some very well thought replies so far...and encouraging.
Actions speak louder than words and as a believer of the scripture, I believe it is important to act accordingly as opposed to speak to non-believers of the Christian faith. I've said it before and yeah, I'll say it again. Sometimes, some Christians behave worse than an unsaved person and that is VERY offputting. No, none of us are perfect and we shouldn't claim to be, but if we are followers of Christ we should at least allow Him to come through in in our life so others can see a difference in how we live our life.
Finally it would seem that the scripture can provoke change where needed and create some guilt where needed, but it always convicts people and sometimes this conviction creates anger because who wants to be reminded, by scripture, that we're not doing what we're supposed to be doing.
Sometimes some Christians behave worse?! As in most of the time most Christians behave better than an “unsaved” person? I don’t see the strong connection between believer and good conduct. To suggest that on the whole “unsaved” persons do not conduct themselves in a decent and moral way is insulting to me.
Imho you grossly overestimate the impact of scripture on those “unsaved”.
Clarification on saved - someone who has asked Jesus Christ in his/her heart. Yes, sometimes christian people do behave worse than non-christians. For example, in stores or restaurants the Christians have been rude and demanding. I've known them to steal from their employer, talk about others, and lie. These things should not take place and a believer should not think they are above reproach, none of us are. There is no intent to infer an unbeliever is a terrible person. However, if someone professes to be of a particular faith, one would expect moral behavior. Again, no insult intended.
I know what saved means. I’m guessing I’m much older than you, therefore likely I have spent at least as much time in church as you have.
Again you imply Christians on the whole have a higher code of conduct. I’d confidently stand toe to toe with any Christian and be assessed for kindness and respect to others.
Morals were set by the word and if you are not a believer than you would not know what Morals are?
Sorry again most laws we know today were set forth in Hammurabi's code almost a thousand years before the first Biblical accounts were written, and in fact as Abraham was an immigrant from this area of what is now Iraq he probably carried this legal tradition with him to Canaan, and from it we get the Ten Commandments.
The ten commandments written by God and given to Moses. He spent 40 days and 40 nights with God as he wrote his words on the tablets.
Have you considered writing a Hub about your faith and welcome to Hubpages :0
I'm not disputing that but all morals are not from the Ten Commandments people have had a moral sense of right and wrong thousands of years before Moses came. As such Morals to not come exclusively from the word and Scripture but were a work in progress handed down throughout all of Human history as such Abraham and the Hebrew people were well established before Moses came along and had been following a moral code for hundreds of years.
First, scripture should be used to state what the Christian believes. Second, while I think it's legitmate to use scripture as a "reason why," it will probably not convince many. You have to engage a person's thinking and reasoning. Giving a lone quote from the Bible is not likely to convince.
Having said that, even if Bible verses are not convincing to others, the Christian believes that the statement from scripture is true. So, at least for the Christian, stating verses in discussion is a way of staying "on track" in the pursuit of the truth. And the pursuit of truth has merit regardless of whether you convince others or not in that pursuit.
I would like to add first before we talk we should pray and then listen what God say. Vladimir
I don't hate Scriptures.
I don't hate people who believe in whatever anyone believes in (Christian, non-believers, or otherwise)
I don't want anyone reading or citing Scriptures to me in day-to-day conversation, though; because if I want to know what's in the Bible I'll look for it myself (or go to a church and hear it from an "official" preacher), and I don't want anyone presuming I need to hear/learn what's in the Scriptures. To presume I "need lessons" is presuming either that I've never heard any religious teachings and/or that I'm not someone who just happens to come by living as a good person naturally. Presuming either of these things is insult.
I like and want separation of church and state.
I also like to relate to people who share their own, personal, thoughts rather than reciting Scriptures. I just think if someone has truly assimilated what they've read/heard about what the Bible says they ought to be able to have a conversation without citing Bible verses. If people have truly learned something and understand what it means they don't need to quote where they learned it from. People can either say something like, "I don't believe in seeking revenge because of my religion," or they could go on and put in their own words why doing something like that is something they see as "wrong". Spewing back Bible verses when others are trying to relate to one is not "relating". It is (or should be) possible to share one's beliefs with others in one's own words. I'd think that would cover the "rules" of some religions which ask their followers to "spread the word" without excluding genuine communication between people of different beliefs.
Lisa, I am sure you are beautiful person. But I am sad, even you are mostly right. The way we talk is wrong, it is true. But one can prevent this. See the faith comes not by thinking or behaving, but by hearing Word. Many of us probably do not think and do not hear what we say. We have to be sensitive haw to minister.
Never have been a fan of smugness or condescension, especially from Bible thumpers.
Past 1 or 2 passages, the scripture loses impact. Don’t like people hiding behind scriptures.
Don’t like people hiding behind prayer. Encountered too many “Christians” who “prayed over it”, which amounted to nothing more than a meditation with themselves to rationalize their bad behavior.
BTW, Well said LisaHW.
This is a loaded question. As a believer, there is no reason for me to hate the scriptures, but love them. I either beleive in all the scripture or none of it.
For unbelievers the scriptures can be difficult to accept and therefore be angry with them. The Holy Spirit has to be within someone in order to understand the scriptures and the ways of God. These are not my words, but what the scriptures say.
Unfortunately, there are many who call themselves Christians, but do not live the life as one. This is what can upset many who are not Christians as the do not practice what they preach. Maybe more will be tolerant of the scriptures when Christians live there lives "Daily" by them.
I am very impressed with the intellectual tone of this conversation. I have to go do some work on my book but I will catch up to this thread later. Very good points everyone, thank you for sharing.
And all in all, when you're being attacked simply for stating your beliefs, I find it more helpful to simply be embarrassed for such people. If someone uses an attack to present their point of view, then they probably don't want to convince you, they probably just want to vent their anger.
It's a decent discussion because we have an intelligent and open person leading it, Scott!
If a scripture concept is being debated, I can see that a person would quote it to avoid being accused of taking it out of context; that happens in a lot of religious discussions.
I wouldn't mind seeing a link to the referenced verse(s) so that it's easily available if I need to read it.
When people just use scripture to yell at or threaten people, it's irrelevant.
i love the bible, i read it all the time..... i like to have discussions with people, but i don't quote scripture at them and i don't expect it to be done to me.... a discussion is different than a lecture.....
it would be nice to sometimes discuss our beliefs, ask what do you think this scripture means etc, and accept that different people will have different views that is life...
Jesus always taught by example, so if we copy him we can't go far wrong....... i don't believe anyone is saved, where born again christians think they are..... but wo what.....
Just joined and found this. Very interesting. Just thought I would put my two cents in after reading your take on this Brenda.
You said Jesus taught by example, this is true but not entirely. Jesus also taught through scripture.
And aside from that, Jesus is the word. His words are scripture. So when he spoke to the crowds and taught, he was quoting scripture.
I think it is important for christians to share their faith through Gods word. It will not come back void. It's words are more true than our own.
Just my take on it
Jesus also taught by parable actually it was mostly by parable. As the common man could neither read or write and few had even read the scripture. How does that answer the question about people having a problem with the scripture being quoted or with its delivery , well you're right reader I thought I'd deflect it and give a vague answer. I guess a better question would be when is it pointless to quote scripture, and at what point does doing so serve merely to deflect ignorance and infuriate the listener?
At what point scott?
Maybe when it startes to make more sense to them and they begin to believe it.
I don't know just my thoughts
You really think blindly quoting scripture to justify yourself and your actions without demonstrating its actual impact and effect in your actions is going to win you respect and converts?
I'll give you an example as I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I work with a jail ministry and we go in once a week to meet with the inmates. Now There are also six other churches that go in there on the other six days. They all do the same thing...they go in quote scripture and do what I like to call the salvation and damnation pitch. Now We start out by talking to the guys about how they are who they want and what they want to accomplish in life and we get to know them on a personal basis. Now without fail as we all carry Bible's someone always ask about God, and then a dialog is opened in which we explain what we think and how it has effected us, and even now and then read scripture just to illustrate a point.
Now all the other programs are seeing a drop in enrollment when we asked the inmates why they reply that they're tired of being lectured on the scripture but not being shown how to live it. We demonstrate it first by action then share the scripture when asked why we do what we do.
not blindly quoting scripture. I didn't say that. You should quote it as it relates to the discussion at hand of course, is all I am saying.
easy there now,...not wanting a fight here with you. you look like you could kick my butt! lol
But I agree with you and I am glad you do what you do, it is a blessing to them as well as yourself.
It constantly amazes me ,not so much the unbelief or belief but the amount of crazy people starting threads everyday on much the same topic!
Also it seems to become the same ones venting ( on both sides)
Hate , bitterness, judgement, critism,hostility.
In fairness I guess to them it isnt the same ,but from my perspective it is.
I know how I feel about Jesus Christ and His influence in my life and values, and I dont need to be on repeat , or react to every single negative, just the occassional one.
Guess my point is we could all tone it down ,both sides
I guess that is the heart of the issue for me, I read the scripture often but I really don't enjoy having thrown at me repeatedly by people that have not internalized it. I feel like I'm not getting in answer in such a case but just a programmed response.
I think some people use the scripture to beat people down; but that is not the purpose.
It is to use as a tool to apply to our lives and live by; actions speak louder than words...and if you live a good life you will pass that on to others without having to push it down their throats.
Jesus walked this earth and lived his life according to the word of his father and people followed him and listened to him; they learned and taught..that is what we should be doing.
Respect means , listening first and sadly many people dont do that.
Wwe could all get on if we really wanted too , so motivation is a good key as well IMO (in my opinion ) and
A strong healthy sense of humour
In order for scriptures to be a valid source of reference, one must have a presupposition(assumption) that the bible is the "WORD OF GOD." The nonbeliever doesn't hate scripture, he is just tired of believers using an invalid source(the bible) to prove the premise.
Believers must understand: To the nonbeliever, the bible is not a valid source to support the argument. Therefore, when you keep using scripture to back up your claims, it can make people indignant.
Well said. Most people do not mind a persons beliefs so much as mind being force fed with them.
Alot like how to Muslims Christians are wrong and lost, yeah I get your point. One man's enemy is another's hero depending on perspective
The great thing about the Bible is it has been tested and retested over time and still stands.
So you realize how many authors of the books there were over thousands of years and it all fits? It is the only book written in this manner and the only book that can be documented as truth.
Even the scientist have used to find and test their theories...hmmm something to think about!
While I do not disagree as I read the Bible and believe it also, I think you just opened the door on that one, alot of the bible is accurate historically but say it has been proven to be True and you just made a claim that will be impossible to back up to those that don't share your beliefs.
You have, absolutely, nothing to back up that claim. And I would gladly risk going to hell before I let YOU convince me of anything.
See, you gotta know how far to go and when that is too far
Maybe you should spend a little time studying the findings of this world and how the bible was used. I don't have to convince you of anything that should be done by you having faith in him.
They have proven Jesus walked and died on this earth with use of the bible; they have found cities thought to be "myth" from the use of the bible.
The world searches for the Holy Grail; described in the bible; look at the book of revelations and look at the stories in the news...do they sound familiar?
Think about this; Nostradomous is someone people believe in his profecies...but all his messages were written thousand of years prior in the bible. Strange what people will opt to believe in for fear of holding themselves accountable for their actions that are considered to be sins in the bible. Just because you don't believe doesnt' make it untrue.
Nostradamus came 1500 years after Christ and the Bible, just a correction not saying you're wrong
With all due respect, my friend, I am really sorry that you didn't get the point. You still have absolutely no proof. That is where the debate gets heated. The believer only has his presupposition, and, sadly, can't see beyond it. On the other hand, some people prefer to make a conscious effort to think and reason before drawing any assumption. BTW, I have read the bible.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Those who have not come to Jesus Christ cannot understand scripture and it helps them none at all. Scripture is for those who have found the grace of God through faith. The scriptures are what perfects the man of God and enables us (believers) to do good works.
Scriptures have been thrown out to embarrass and condemn unbelievers many many times. I have done it myself also. I have learned better than to do that now. It is a process like going to school. Those who use scriptures to hurt others, will learn how to not do it.
The Holy Ghost is the force that leads believers. He is the one who brings us to the truth. Unbelievers do not have the Holy Ghost. I did not have the Holy Ghost until I came to Christ and repented of my sins.
Scripture can perform surgery on those who want it. It can also heal those who need it. To those who do not want it, it is pointless to use it. It is like casting pearls before the swine. (no insults intended but making a point).
Lastly, 1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order. If it is not done in love, then it is pointless. Even unbelievers most of the time can tell if someone is stating something with love or with venom.
I learn more from one of your posts Sir than several others thankyou
Scriptures are for all; it is never pointless to read the scriptures. If all are born and don't have knowledge of God and never read or hear the scriptures than how would you know of him and his expectations of us.
I read to develop myself to be a better christian; to walk in his words. These are for all to learn.
As soon as I saw the quote marks I almost thought to myself Oh here we go again, but you pulled off a good point and answered my question...good job.
Remember just because you don't believe doesn't mean its not true there's a double edged sword If ever one were spoken....I love you Margie and I agree with you in alot pf principles but you just shot a huge hole in your argument with that line, these guys are seasoned pros and will use that to tear you apart.
Think of this as spiritual debate 101 shore up your defense's to prevent weakness and you argument unraveling...I do appreciate you guys participating though and being civil.
All the laws of this world are off shoots of the Ten Commandments...think about it; what are the punishments by law for breaking them.
Morals come from what we know to be the "right" way to behave; but where do those "right" ways come from? They come from the rules that were set by God in the commandments.
my son was a very well behaved little boy, and is a very caring and compassionate person with high moral values and he never studied the Bible or the ten commandments, or went to church, so there goes that theory. i think we learn right from wrong from strong role models and how something feels to us - if it feels bad being stolen from, or lied to, or punched, then it's probably not a good idea to do it to someone else.
Margie , I have family who have morals and values but do no give God credit for having them ,which is fine with me.
Sidenote: The funny thing about the ten commandments is that they existed long before Moses wrote them down. Hell, the Sumerian people had a list of ten commandments that were eerily similar to the Ten Commandments given to the Hebrew people.
What year was this; I can guarantee they were not....give me more info?
It was in the BC era between 5000 to 1000, you'd have to Google Hammurabi, the Assyrians, Sumerians and a few others. I learned it in a history class at Bible College.There are alot of ideas and stories in the Old Testament that are based in earlier traditions and cultures, the Noah flood story was actually first told as the epic of Gilgamesh. As I said, Abraham, the Patriarch of the Hebrews was an immigrant from this land and would have carried many of those traditions from that area with him when he went west.
Sumerians were here BCE not before the Ten Commandments; these were written before Jesus was born...alot of people get the who thing confused because they assume that nothing happend before Jesus was actually here walking this earth. The old testament was written long before he was born and died.
Do you realize it took 1500 years for the Bible to be written?
1900-1700 BC on clay tablets
Do not curse with powerful means, Do not kill, do not laugh with or sit alone in a chamber with a girl that is married, do not steal or commit robbery and do not spit out lies
Hey there it is Thanks Earnest....just because something came first or from an earlier time doesn't make it any less relevant or powerful regardless of what you're religion may be. All great Faiths share a similar Moral and behavioral stance at their core despite how far some extremist may wander from it.
True; and it would be before Christ because the Ten Commandments were written before Christ was born...long before.
According to history the best accurate guess for the exodus was 1477BCE.
Hammurabi's Code was written between 1796-1750 BCE, and was based on: Codex of Lipit Ishtar 1870 BCE, which expanded on: The Laws of Eshnunna 1930 BCE, which were based on: The Code of Ur-Nammu from 2050 BCE...when Christ was alive is not relevant in this point, The Hebrews left Egypt then received the Ten Commandments, and Egypt itself had a documented system of Laws and Moral Codes dating back to 3500 BCE. You're dancing around the subject. You stated all Morals came from the word and the Ten Commandments but History shows that's not true at all. The Bible is not a history book, It is the History of The world as Christians and The Hebrew people believe, even then most of those can not come to any agreement on specific dates and time lines without consulting outside historical records of surrounding civilizations and nations.
No dancing; just stating that Morals had to come from somewhere...God established the Way of life from the very beginning (as in) when he created the world and life. There would be no rules, morals or anything had he not put us here...do you realize that?
I am a firm believer in the Bible and even that states that not all was written about what Jesus did while here. It would be impossible to document everything...time was not documented as easily back then. But if this book has stood this long and is the guide to many than it must have something.
Those civilizations were discovered and then information has been found to lead them to even more information with the use of the Bible. Just the fact that there is this conversation around this stands for something.
Do you think it is possible to say that people argue the points because of their own fears?
I agree with you that the Bible stands for something no doubt it is a foundation for a life better lived and realized if one chooses to follow it. But I do not believe it to be the end all and be all of history knowledge and truth. Saying that, I do believe that all law and Morals came from God as I believe God created all peoples. To say that all law and morals come from the ten Commandments is bold to say the least, and ignores a tremendous amount of historical fact and documents predating even Abraham by hundreds of years.
I don't know if people argue because of fear or ignorance, I personally believe its just a reflection of how you were raised and educated regarding your faith. If its what you believe and hold to be sacred then its offending to be told that you're wrong. I can be comfortable debating alot of matters of Biblical history and the secular view because I take the long view that since God created all that all is permissible and contributes to a greater work that transcends religion and race.
hehe.... "sit alone in a chamber with a girl who is married"... that's cute.
I'm outta here for the night you all have a good time, be civil and have a good week.
Not to burst a bubble on your belly rub about what a Christian should be, but you have entered and exited some very powerful discussions in which you have sided with those aiming to bash the Bible, Christians, God, Jesus and everything a pure Apostolic Faith stands for. Example- mark, lee's hubs. These two do anything and everything just short of the "F" word in front of their lowercase God.
You are in a dangerous position of self righteousness and a confused "interpretation" of the Bible and the Message of Jesus. Or you are a Jesuit.
I've never stated anywhere what I thought a christian should be, I'm giving historical facts does that lesson God's power or Jesus legitimacy, I don't see how. I've never said the Bible was wrong or inaccurate but I also know it is a book written over a long period of history in which many things were going on and to discount all of history that is not covered by the Bible and to say its wrong is the Ultimate example of self righteous behavior. If history supports the Bible then yay, but if it contradicts it then history must be wrong is this how a true believer in God should act...I am confused
But really since you seem to be the authority on how true Christians should act by all means tell us all so those of us unsure can modify our behavior to reflect it and live up to your image.
Now if "that see my stance on tolerance and patience"
means that you need to agree with what atheists say to
gain their trust-b4 you give testimony, you have done a
Oh so its the Atheist that you think you're better then now I get it...I'm sorry is it just not holy for me to fraternize with those unsure of God's role or existence
He is merely saying that he is not closed-minded.
"we" should look at the evidence "your" scientists dismiss as Biblical Facts. "we" should take careful study of literature and evidence that will never get published in magazines and articles because it makes the Bible more accurate(and these magazines are run by atheists).
Finally, a strong stance is not something to be ashamed of. If I debate with a person who has no moral standard, so be it. But they will know where I stand, and I will surely tell them of the Love of Christ. (their final laugh)
What do you mean "Your" scientist, you demonstrate already your attitude of us versus them, yes I've read your hubs and watched you and Lee go at it, my friend but if you think you can boil all of humanity down into us versus them, and believer VS. Non , then you are far from Jesus or God's love my friend and every word you speak just illustrates it further.
Let go of the conspiracy man no one is out to silence you and persecute you, the only one persecuting you is YOU.
Were there any people that Christ did not "associate with" / "hang out with"?
Were there any people that He refused do do something for?
Was there anything He did not "tolerate"?
Was there anything He had no patience for?
Were there any people who asked Him a question and He refused to answer?
y / n ?
Gonna have to go with No, That i can recall myself.
Did HE ever answer Herod's questions ?
Did HE answer any of the false charges brought against HIM?
Did HE hate fear?
Did HE do things for people who mocked HIM?
Did He do things for people who had no faith or belief in HIM?
Did HE tolerate the money changers in the temple?
Did He tolerate the self righteous?
Did HE hang out with scribes and pharisees?
Did HE hate the deed of the Nicolaitans?
Is there going to be a point in all this...just say what you want to say already
I am asking you because you seem to know a lot and want to tolerate and be patient.
Maybe looking into these things will help you understand more, the one you speak of.
The Christian answer to what you're asking is yes he did something for everyone of these people who mocked him, ridiculed him and and asked of him, He died for their sins and in rising again answered all their questions and he often ate and spoke with both Pharisee and Sadducee and prayed even for those that crucified him and hated him...so is that what you want to hear or do you want to tell me how I'm mistaken and point out the flaws in my way of thinking...in three days on these forums I've noticed only one thing that you have a point against whatever is being discussed...so what exactly do you want to hear then so i can save myself some time
No answer for any of these?
Where did HE do things for people who had no faith?
Did He refuse to do things for people with no faith and then when they pleaded, HE gave them what they asked for?
Was there anything He did not "tolerate"?
Was there anything He had no patience for?
Were there any people who asked Him a question and He refused to answer?
Did HE answer any of the false charges brought against HIM?
Did HE hate fear? Unbelief?
Did He make a whip and beat people with it?
Throw them out of the temple and reject them?
Did HE do anything for Herod when asked to?
Did He speak to Herod? Associate with him?
Did He tolerate the money changers in the temple?
All of the stuff you said HE did, where is that written please?
I am simply challenging what is being said in order to get to more truth.
Christ did not mind being challenged at all did HE?
Is not the test of time Good V Evil?
Wait so now you're good and those who don't agree with you are evil you definitely got balls my friend, remember with the words you use to condemn me you condemn yourself.
havn't the 7 fat cows and 7 skinny cows hieroglyphs made it into National Geographic. no. hmmm
surely the chariot parts at the bottom of the dead sea have made it there? no. wow.
then science must have reviewed their initial idea that dirt layers(strata) represent millions of years and it has petrified trees going through 60 million years worth of strata. no. maybe long ago trees lived forever and they have evolved to shortened life?
Conspiracy you say? well, how could we call thousands of archeologists spending a lifes work looking for answeres outside of the Bible a "conspiracy". I would hate to think that they wouldn't review their "facts" once new data is collected- but then what about the years wasted?
N-e-ways back to the original question Scott posed: I don't hate the scripture just how people keep repeating it and repeating it and repeating it to me. that is fine when it's once or we are discussing religion (NOT ARGUING MIND YOU ) but when ppl just repeat it again and again to force me to have their same opinion on things then yea I hate it.
Tantrum- "What's wrong in being a jesuit?"
review the Jesuit Oath and then get back to me. I will discuss further if you like, but that is a good starting point.
I know about jesuits. I'm an atheist, but if i were forced to believe, i would be a jesuit. They are the only christians that study theology in a scientific way.
I'm sure they do. Have you reviewed the oath?
What are you exactly Sooner since you insist on spreading your view
I don't think the oath you're refering to is real. It sounds childish and stupid. i'm sure you're refering to the one that's all over the web .
What is an Atheist, what does it mean to you?
I can assure you its real. There are hard copied prints. Jesuits used to be more sectative and this was not supposed to be released EVER. Now they cover their works with charity.
What do you do with this oath? And who is it between; anyone that matters?
Well, I don't remember how it goes now, but it doesn't sound very intelligent. Don't you think? Jesuits have been persecuted by the catholic church for ages. Maybe this is another slander
Your welcome tantrum. Makes for interesting reading and there are other sites as well that was just one.
Don't forget Tantrum you can stay as you are....you can go to meetings at UU churches. they accept EVERYONE
Did Christ accept everyone?
It looks as he accepted me. then I rejected him.
yikes!! I'm not going ! Nor reading your hub either, sorry
Because during these days I was off hubpages, I received a lot of e-mails with fan's publishe hubs. There must be like 60 or more! Lol. i will have to delete half of them.no time to read all
aaa sorry you got bombarded by so many lol I have gotten tons too and so behind on reading myself lol. You can always just do some research on UU on your own time instead of read my hub
If I have to waste my time reading about those churches, I'd prefer to read your hub
As for the original question; I don't hate scripture, but I do hate what some people will do with it. I have seen many so called 'Christians' use the scriptures to condemn people for the most idiotic of things. I have been told by at least one person that I am in error because I do not want children, nor do I want to marry. (Genesis: Be fruitful and multiply)
There's a will known saying, that all objects in and of themselves are neutral, and they only become good or evil when someone uses them.
Well i don't believe you are wrong for not wanting to marry or multiply...but as far as your saying is concerned then how can we explain the evil in this world against the innocent.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil, I the LORD do all of these things.
Also, just look at the infamous site by Fred Phelps, which not only condemns homosexuals, but also condemns everyone, and they use scripture to support their beliefs about how THEY are the only chosen ones of God. (Everyone else will burn in Hell.)
This is a prime example of using Scripture for the purpose of evil.
You're not wrong at all for not wanting to have kids or marry. that isn't religious at all just your opinion and what yu awnt to make you happy in life. Marriage and having kids isn't for everyone and you feel that it isn't right for you so props to you!
Hey i just got told four weeks ago That wanting marriage and kids was against God's will and selfish that God should provide all the fulfillment I needed...this coming from married men with families...I kid you not.
WOW what? that is crazy, Scott! those guys are weird and dumb lol
@crazdwriter - Thanks! My mom is disappointed that I've decided not to have children, but I've just told her that I'm not good with kids.
@ Scott.Life - Yeah, I've heard alot of stuff about marriage. How the only saints of God never get married, bla bla bla. Then I hear that you have to get married to prove that you love God.
Where does this crazy stuff come from?
Dualistic philosophy usually gnostic sources. Thats why I love to quote the bible especially genesis. In beginning male and female. And it was good.
Human philosophies try to save themselves by works and see flesh as evil so glorify celibacy. In the beginning it was not so.
Nevertheless in reality some born eunuch and some will make themselves eunuchs for the gospel sake. Not to be enforced as a burden or requirement for salvation.
"Nothing either right or wrong. Thinking makes it so."
I tend to lean towards the evil is the absence of good, just as hell is the absence of God more then a particular place.
Good and evil is knowledge we apparently were not to have touched or tasted of.
Genesis certainly makes the argument that we weren't supposed to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, maybe God would have preferred to show us when he was ready instead of us taking a shortcut to knowledge without the maturity to handle it, yet.
There's a piece of scripture concerning this that I always found interesting.
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
and the NIV
19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that[a] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Oh come on! He knew the woman could not resist eating the fruit and besides, he knew the future. Why didn't he just put the tree somewhere else if he knew Eve would eventually give in to temptation. For a supreme being this God made an awful lot of mistakes in judging his creations. If Adam and Eve did not know what right and wrong was they could not have sinned by eating the fruit.
No need to know right from wrong in order to follow simple instructions not to taste or touch something when told not to.
No need to put temptations "someplace else"....anywhere they are is where you are...you are the one who has to resit them, not have them removed.
But those without sin cannot be tempted because they have no guile.
Any child can be tempted and they have no guile.
These were not children. They did not know right from wrong until they ate the fruit, therefore they could not sin until after they had eaten. Children DO know if they do wrong in many instances. At least I did.
You never answered my question how you got your name.
They knew to follow instructions because when tempted, Eve told the serpent what GOD said to do and not to do, so she did know what the boundaries were.
They were children too, God's children.
Sin is to not follow instructions....just that simple.
From the Torah:
This is what the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength"
So they already knew right from wrong before eating the fruit? Then what waa the point of the whole fiasco?
They did not know good and evil...they did know to follow instructions and would not.
They had plenty of trees to pick from and they could have eaten from the tree of life too...
they wanted what they wanted,.... just like many today...and that created the fiasco.
But God already knew they would eat the fruit. Why go through the motions of a given?
He knew they had a choice to make.
He knew the outcome no matter which way they went with said choice.
If I already know what you are going to do, but you make a change and correct it, can you not change your destiny? And I knew you would do that too?
Or do you think God learns patience with people?
No. I do no think God learns patience with people. I would assume if he were all powerful he could learn nothing from man. He would already know the entire outcome from his little experiment with humans and the suffering they would endure because of his little experiment. I do not need such an ignorant being.
Did Jesus learn anything while He was here?
I'm not sure he was ever here.
God is within you and all this is happening because you want it to.Its a game you are playing with yourself , creating experiences to find out your real self. You have decided before coming to this planet what you want to see and experience.
But still, why din't God, in all his wisdom, just, simply not tempt these innocent first beings?
Or we are just some alien races experiement?
But then christ would not need to die on cross. The Cross shows need for divine-human mediation.
It's more like...we have a Sado-Masochist relationship with God. He's a sadist and we are masochist.
I am not Tantrum that was mean I believe in God...
Does it say GOD tempted them or someone else did?
Didn't God know it was going to happen anyway?
And, so, why would God leave these innocent beings,that he "loved" vulnerable to the whims of a very powerful Satan then. One cannot be God and not God at the same time.
That's like asking
"why do I leave my child in the kitchen where they could hurt themselves with something"?
Why do I tell them not to touch the stove and then walk away to see if they do it?
Do you have temptations in your life?
Do you remove all of them from yourself?
What parent removes all temptations from a child?
The child just gets told what to do or not do. No parent "EXPLAINS" everything!!!
Nope, it's like leaving sharp knives and loaded guns around children and trusting they will be fine. You wouldn't do that and supposedly God is a little smarter than you.
Well, you did not answer any of the questions.....why not?
I asked you 4 questions.
And to answer you, I was 5 years old when I got my first hand gun, 7 when I got a .22cal Winchester Rifle, 12 when I got a 12gage Shotgun....never hurt anyone with any of them......had guns, knives and weapons all my life.
I can follow instructions though. None of it was locked up in a closet either.
Kept all mine in my room, same with my brother.
I did not answer your questions because you ignored mine about how you came by your alias on this site.
I did to answer you Randy....did you not read it?
This is what the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength
As a fallen pastor once said to me"logic has no place in Christian religion." He was right but I still wonder why it has to be so. Going to bed now. By the way, the story of Genesis is just that, a story.
See, I gave you an answer and you do not return in kind.
You did not give an answer, you quoted scripture. Who decided you deserved the name quietnessandtruth. A name like this is earned not taken.
You asked where I got it from and I told you.
No, salvation is not "earned" Randy...it is given and received.
the name is not "quietnessandtruth"
Sorry, my mistake. So you just assumed it suited you? Well, I guess this is quite common on this site. Perhaps I should use wonderfulandbrilliant as my alias. HA!
I said it was given and I received it. I know you can read better than that Randy.
And you still have no answers?
OK that's fine.
Perhaps I have missed a post somewhere, if so I'm sorry. Who gave it to you? I will go back and look at your questions again.
Obviously the One who said it gave it to me and anyone else who believes on HIM.
If I understand correctly, God himself gave you this name along with other believers. Did God appear to you and say " I now endow you with this title and the other believers voted the same way." If not, then clarify please.
Shows you what the "pastor" knows.
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God"
Greek word for the term translated Word is "Logos"....we get our word "logic" from it.
So the man is a liar.
How can I argue with someone named and appointed by God himself?
I didn't know the bible was originally written in Greek.
So God is merely a parent. I thought he was omniscient. How can an all powerful God be compared to having the parenting skills of a mere mortal creature with very limited knowledge. As I stated earlier: One cannot be God and not God at the same time.
Being a parent is part of being GOD....not merely being GOD.
HE is not compared to us, we are compared to HIM.
How about some answers to my questions?
Omniscient is not the same as All Powerful by the way.
Religion is a means by which to frighten and confuse, and ultimately to...control. I have proven my point, while you talk in circles(confusion)with answers someone else gave you(control) and you think you are having an intelligent debate. If we, then, are compared to Him, he is a bad example for us to follow. This is not about definitions of words, it's about the truth. I'm aware that omniscient means unlimited knowledge.
Nobody gave me any answers.....I do not go to learn from anyone.
Not interested in religion or controlling you or anyone else.
Make no diff to me if you believe a word said.
"it's about the truth"?
Or the truth?
Randy thats the most difficult question for me in the universe.
The answer is not very direct but helps: God had to give us free will. Nature of conflict between good and evil. So assuming that God saw it coming he could not do otherwise because he was bound by free will.
Humanly, I see it as a divine tragedy. The bible presents it as a cosmic drama which begun in heaven. I would much prefer to have been born in a universe without sin. But we are already here so the best friend to have, as the song says, is Jesus.
God gave us a choice and made provision for possibility of sinning by providing a Messiah. "Lamb slain from foundation of the world."
I'm out everyone, I haven't slept in two days and i got work in the morning, thank you everyone for weighing in with your opinions even if I don't understand them, I'll still listen . Catch up to this tomorrow.
@ Scott Yea tell me about it...Religion is definitely weird. Glad I became open minded
@ Sanctus: Ah...yea that is one thing that mom's do want...you to have kids so they can have grandkids and spoil them to death LMAO
By the way Sanctus have you just hung out with kids at like a park or something to know if you really aren't good with kids? just curious.
Actually I have. I am good with kids, I just don't want any of my own.
AAAAAA I got you peggged you are one of those ones who would rather make other ppl's kid hyper and then go home and not deal with your own kids all hyper LMAO Just kidding.
From one of the most ridiculous biblical nonsense of Adam and eve and the kids that had incestuous sex that ended in mankind being every colour of the rainbow! Religion explains this by introducing "children of man of which Adam was apparently first! wottalottarot!
Speaking of Adam and Eve...I saw an Eve Costume for Halloween at Spencers LMAO
Nope I'm not going as Eve this year...I am going as a fairy again this year. The Brat by Amy Brown LOVE HER WORK! Sorry Misha lmao
Never hurts to ask though. Sometimes you shall receive
It it makes you feel any better I'll find some old Halloween pictures and make a hub about Halloween and post my pics
I would be quite delighted to see it. yet I'm afraid you can't post Eve's costume pics, goes against the TOS.
*is dead due to lack of breathing*
Oh great...people we've lost one. Anyone got a sharp stick so we can poke him?
Don't worry she would raise from the dead ,like Lazarus I'm sure !
Well if anyone needs any spare kids, I have plenty today, and will pay handsomely to be relieved of a few!
Just kiddin. I love em all, but I wish they would talk one at a time!
No need to put temptations "someplace else"....anywhere they are is where you are...you are the one who has to resit them, not have them removed.
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