Creationism - The Fatal Flaw

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Spaghetti Monsterposted 14 years ago
While I was quaffing one of my latest products in the beer factory, I pondered the following.

Creationists believe that God created the world in 6 days, and that Adam and Eve were happy in the garden of Eden until a snake persuaded them to eat an apple, after which everything started going to pieces.

I trust that everyone is in total agreement up to this point.

Well, here's the problem.

Nowadays, snakes don't have the power of speech. Or persuasion.

So people who think that evolution is a myth, and that it is impossible that a monkey could evolve into a man seem to have no problem believing that snakes can go through a type of reverse evolutionary process.

Where they change from seductive, persuasive, silver tongued beings into totally silent mouse eaters who couldn't be seductive or persuasive if their lives depended on it.

Just a thought.

RAmen.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do all that believe in creation believe in adam and eve? Sounds like a faith based assumption to me.
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  cheaptrickposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hello Marine.I think its interesting to point out that in the original Hebrew the word Adam can be used to indicate an individual OR humanity.The thing is,the original Bible was written in Hebrew,Greek and Aramaic.Seems to me the truth would require learning these languages IN THE ORIGINAL CONTEXT then reading the Bible if we want to know what it really taught.Christianity has become a religion of Convenience and status like a Gucci hand bag.Any of you believers Care to quote what Jesus "SAID"on the requirements for becoming his disciple.The rich man,on forgiving etc.If you can answer this then you didn't do it cause Jesus told the man to give away everything he owned and you have a computer...
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My computer was donated to me as a blessing.
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  cheaptrickposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't recall Christ walking around with a laptop.this is another example of Christian convenience...
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't recall Christ walking around with a slate tablet either, in fact I know of nothing that he actually wrote, except the words in the sand that made the Pharisees flee from stoning the woman caught in adultery.
  
  So presumably from your perspective no Christian should own a pen or pencil or any writing material?
  
  Get real.
  
  Christ used what was around at the time, His message is not to put possessions above God, not to hold them tightly, basically don't covet.
  
  God would never let the enemy have all the tools of the 21st century, Satan's job is to try and discredit Gods word, of course God is going to provide His servants with what we need to deny you guys the freedom of the airways.
  
  But a nice try....
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  cheaptrickposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  God as most Christians define him doesn't need people to kill for him,something religious fanatics have been doing since the beginning of the distortions of Christs Teachings.God has the KEYS to the Lightening cabinet and can take care of that little chore him self.My Christian friends(surprise surprise)have taken the time and put in the effort to go back to the ORIGINAL language the Bible was written in with the context and symbolism of that time.I love there understanding of the Bible and would defend it.If you truly are a Christian I challenge you to do the same.you cannot achieve Salvation by symbolically ducking your head under water or professing the name of Christ unless you live HIS life which as you know was not a Cake walk.When the disciples asked him what to expect from the world he told them to look at the way the world had treated HIM and asked if they thought the world would treat them any better,did he not?So I say again,Christianity has become a religion of convenience and Status much like a Gucci hand bag.Most people think becoming a Christian will make there life Easier,only the few realize how hard it really is.To those few i say,God Bless You,you are keeping your religion alive.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I don't believe we evolve from a monkey, and I don't believe a Serpent could talk to happy guys into eating some apple and get doomed.
  
  I really don't care where I come from. Only care where I'm going. And that I know pretty well!
  
  And don't ask. That's my secret.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do you still hate me even though I love you?
  
  How can you claim to know where your going when you don't know where you came from?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But, Marine, you're missing the point. She knows where she came from. She just doesn't care. That doesn't mean that she lacks the ability to plan her own future.
  
  What past revelation of where 'mankind' comes from- is irrelevant.
  
  Especailly, when we accept our own existence and where exactly we came from. And, that would be the womb of another human being called your mother. No other questions are required to live life for oneself.
  
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I would argue to say that neither her, you, or me know where we came from or where we are going as absolute. It can only be believed through faith.
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  Don Wposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  *whispers* Where are you going? I promise not to tell anyone else.
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  kinder123posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Can I also come with?
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  All animals have the power of speech and the ability to reason and rationale. I read that in a book by Aesop.
  
  And, considering that a single book has the power over a great many people to ignore evidence to the contrary, it would seem legitimate, yes?
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  cocopremeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think there is a difference between believing in micro-evolution and macro-evolution. Any observer of the world can see that things do change over time. Human lifespan has increased since recorded history, for example. However, I think macro-evolution hasn't been proven. There still is no evidence of missing links. The fossil evidence to support massive changes in life forms from unicellular swimming microbes to four-legged furry mammals is just not there. And if you think it does exist, show it to me.
  
  According to creationism, you are right that there was a reverse evolutionary process. That is the whole premise of the fall and the subsequent need for redemption. Man was supposed to be more than he is now. In the beginning he was more in tune with nature, either by telepathy, as some have mentioned, or some other unknown means. Redemption and the return of Christ will be in a way evolution in the forward sense reversing the effects of humankind's bad choices.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You think macro evolution hasn't been proven.
  
  You are wrong. It has been proven.
  
  Now your beliefs are worthless and jesus is not going to come back. Telepathy or no.
  
  Do you lot just make this up as you go along?
  
  And the means of being more in tune with the rest of creation is not unknown. I do it all the time. But - I am not waiting for jesus to return.
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  cocopremeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Then show me the proof. I've yet to see it. Show me some hard evidence. All you are doing is saying I am wrong based on your own personal opinion.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No - I am saying you are wrong based on the fact that there is ample evidence and the entire scientific community accepts this as fact.
  
  http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
  
  It is not my personal opinion. It is an actual fact.
  
  Odd that you demand "hard evidence" though - yet go with the talking snake and telepathy and jesus coming back without any evidence whatsoever.
  
  Why is that?
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, Mark wrong again!
  http://www.trueorigin.org/theobald1a.asp
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  cocopremeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You assume that anyone who is a Christian is simply someone who believes in pretty fairy tales. That simply is not the case. There is a whole branch of religious study, apologetics, that attempts to answer the tough questions about faith.
  
  I only became a Christian after I reluctantly came to the conclusion that it was more logical than agnosticism.
  
  Here are a few of the "hard evidences" in favor of the validity of Christianity: atheistic scholars treat biblical texts as good historical documents because of their accuracy and lack of errors, archaelogical evidence has been discovered and continues to be found to support biblical accounts, the Jews who crucified Jesus could not produce any evidence to refute his resurrection during their lives.
  
  Even the toughest critics of the Bible don't deny its accuracy in the details. Hard evidence in the ground tells me the people who wrote the Bible didn't make up what they were saying. And the people who had the most to gain, the Jewish authorities, could not even find evidence to stop the new Christian movement.
  
  Thetruthhurts2009 posted a cite that refutes your so called evidence of evolution. Seems to me that the entire scientific community does NOT accept evolution as fact. You are wrong about that.
  
  As for the telepathy, that is more speculation than anything else. I think most biblical scholars would agree that the creation account in Genesis is not meant to be read as a scientific text. It is more of a story explaining the why of human existence rather than the how. If evolution actually had something other than speculations and great leaps of faith in asking us to believe that fish magically turn into cows all of their own accord, I could reconcile it with Christianity as the means by which God acted.
  
  As it stands, I find it much more believable that there was a magician bringing things to life rather than creatures changing species to get to a better food bowl.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So - you did not actually want the hard evidence I provided then?
  
  Why even ask for it if you are then going to tell me you do not believe it even when it is given to you?
  
  Sorry you are unable to understand evolution. I must admit - going with the "god did it and we did not magically change from fish to monkeys therefore the bible is right," is a compelling argument if you favor the simplistic. Good for you - It is always useful to know your intellectual place in the world.
  
  I know what "apologetic," means. A misnomer, of course - like all christian statements. Attacking scientific knowledge does not give any weight to your irrational beliefs. Quite the opposite in fact.
  
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  cocopremeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You obviously have failed to read even my brief post. You skipped over the part where I talked about evidence and then regurgitated your pat little "all Christians are ignorant" response. Did you even look at some of the evidence I provided for believing in the Bible? What about the website countering yours? Did you look at it?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Dear oh dear.
  
  Sorry you cannot understand evolution. And yes I looked at the website. "Laughable," would be a reasonable response.
  
  Evidence you provided for believing in the bible? I think you are misunderstanding the term, "evidence."
  
  I provided you with the hard evidence you requested, and you already had an attack lined up. The same one all you religionists use which amounts to: "I do not understand science but here is a christian website with some big words on it that says evolushun is a lie."
  
  You leave me little option but to laugh in your face.
  
  Seriously - why did you ask for hard evidence if you are 1, not going to look at it and 2, attack it with pseudo-science?
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  cocopremeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It seems to me you are the one doing the attacking. If you are so knowledgeable about evolution, then what do you consider the most important proof in its favor? Explain it so everyone can understand.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Do you think this makes the invisible super being more plausible?
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know Mark ..... but I may be going out on a limb ... when I say this but maybe you are right and Jesus won't be coming for you.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I can guarantee it.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He won't come for me either !
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He won't be coming for anybody. He's been dead for 2000 years, and he's still dead!!! :
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Jude 1:17-19 (New International Version)
  
  But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold.They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires."
  
  These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for proving the prophesy correct.... everything you guys believe can be refuted from scripture.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  but it's not refuted!
  you just point out our beliefs as being in the Bible.
  
  'These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.'
  
  I didn't know we atheists have such Power !!
  thank you !!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Beats me why they are always fighting it. Says it right there in the bible that eventually the atheists will get fed up with the religionists sticking their ridiculous beliefs down our throats and send them to heaven where they want to go.
  
  Jesus is even going to come back and help.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I hope he comes soon !
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So do they.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your bible is not the word of God! It has nothing to do with God. The "revelations" in it mean nothing, unless we abdicate our minds for a bronze age fallacy.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As long as you are comfortable with it I have no problem with it.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Trust me. In the incredibly unlikely event that you lot are right - I would rather spend eternity in burning in hell than a week with jesus and his fan club. * shudders*
  
  I don't know if you have ever considered your fairy tale from a logical perspective and compared it to the observable way the universe works, and I can only conclude that you haven't - but your version makes so little sense unless you think you are every, very special and better than any one else, I just cannot grasp why so many of you hang on to it..
  
  It has been so mangled as to bear little relationship to reality.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think that is fair. I would suggest you look beyond Jesus and organized religion and see if there is something else that may be worth investigation for you. No pressure. just a suggestion.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I understand it very well. I have a strong connection to the universe and fully understand what the bible's real message is.
  
  Look inside and it is all there. This external savior? What a joke.
  
  I will be returning from whence I came along with the rest of you.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Look beyond the bible also. There are so many other things out there and I don't believe the bible, Christianity or religion has a corner on the spiritual world. If you don't want to that is okay too.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  
  I am well studied in a number of other doctrines and philosophies.
  
  I studied Aikido and philosophy with Ueshiba, Saito and numerous others. I also explored many other possibilities including but not limited to American Indian, Ancient Egyptian approaches.
  
  I have met my former selves on several occasions, spoken to my spirit guide, and taught both martial arts and massage therapy for many years.
  
  There is no external all powerful god with a personality who created the universe for us. Jesus is not coming back and the church (all of them) is evil incarnate.
  
  Just because I do not believe in a personal god and actively dislike religion does not mean I do not have a spiritual side.
  
  I am on my own journey like all of us, and have stopped off briefly to attempt to help those that get sucked into religion and jesus as THE WAY discover that it is a step backwards - personally and for us as a species.
  
  I could say "god told me to," but that would be being hypocritical - and I am not a christian.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I appreciate your candor and sharing. I too am not a Christian in the religious sense. I don't wish to inhibit myself with a simple acceptance. Some call it fate others coincidence but I continue onwards to discover my spiritual self without the encumberances of traditional methods. My path is one of discovery and Christianity is a module in that journey. Good luck to you sir and I hope you find what you are looking for or not if that is what you prefer.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hey presto, Mark quotes scripture also to confirm the truth...
  
  1 Corinthians 1:27-28
  
  But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
  
  He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are....
  
  Congratulations Mark, if you guys continue like this, I'll win the 'Highest number of scripture quotes confirmed by an atheist' sweep amongst us believers!
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Don't you think Corinthians is talking about you ?
  Why do you think you're the wise and strong?
  From my point of view you're the fools and weak.
  
  You are the ones that need a God to lean on.
  not us, atheists !
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Errr.... So now you think that the God you don't believe in, chose atheists as His way to confound those who accepted Him as their Lord and Master.... hmmmm.... if that makes sense to you, so be it!
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i'm not saying that !!
  I say, that maybe the men that wrote the bible were talking of the new 'christians' instead, as being the Evil ones confusing people with false beliefs.
  in the end, Jesus didn't say anything about a church !!
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Why you always twist everything ??!!!
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Quoting scripture (which you twist to mean what you prefer) is not 'twisting things' - it's quoting scripture, which believers are commanded to do;
  
  2 Timothy 4 2:3
  Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.
  
  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
  
  Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
  
  As for Jesus not mentioning the church, the word church means set aside, set apart, and that's what believers are, the church is NOT an organisation, has no buildings, employs no priests, nor does business. The church is made up of people, believers in Christ, and who follow His words in their lives.
  
  Man has made the rest, that we agree upon, but the 'church' of Jesus Christ has existed since the Holy Spirit revealed it at Pentecost (Shauvat)and will continue on earth, preaching the word and looking to save those who may be saved, until Christ returns to wrap it all up.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes! and that's what the Apostles said and 'Believe'.
  not Jesus.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  
  And attacking me by using scripture that really applies to your self - well - I know this is the Christian way and all - but it is still an attack.
  
  All you are doing is confirming what I wrote in my recent hub.
  
  The christian religion causes nothing but conflict and hatred.
  
  Congratulations. Well done.
  
  *clap*
  *clap*
  *clap*
  
  Jesus would be very proud of you.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "It has been proven."
  
  Wanna give some chapter and verse (so to speak) on this statement, a little PROOF TEXT showing how scientist have proved it would be pleasant.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  1. Lucifer/Satan/devil was (and still is able to)appearing as a snake, it was a subterfuge, the snake would have had no knowledge that it was being used by Satan, any more than people who get used do today. Many people have signed covenants with Satan in return for power and wealth here on earth, but far more are owned by Satan in default because they have been fooled into believing he does not exist.
  
  2. Satan still appears as "seductive or persuasive" especially in today's media hype world, you have no idea how many times you will see Satan at work in the average day.
  
  3. I would be less inclined to disbelieve the 'fact' that "a monkey could evolve into a man" if there were actual evidence linking these two events, or if for some peculiar reason monkeys have seemingly STOPPED evolving into men... why is that?
  
  Why can i not find one singl monkey in the world leaning against the bar drinking his pint (messily) and saying "Sorry man, I'm still evolving" - any answers?
  
  Was that sufficiency on subject for you Cags.... and will you now answer my question:
  
  Are you a Scientologist?
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I realise that our atheist American friends are probably stuffing turkey at this time, so maybe answers will be slow to follow.... funny that, why do atheists celebrate a Christian festival?
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  jimbo9posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  By the way, It does not say Adam & Eve ate an apple. They took of the FRUIT and ate. Jim Hogan.
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  jimbo9posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  To argue about what the Bible says you need to read and study it properly. Not quote scripture out of context.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How can you NOT take a 2,000 year old document out of context?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  By understanding that there is a difference between religion and what is to be learned from Jesus.
  
  The 2,000 year old document you're talking about is the Bible. Yes, it's out of context. It's out of context on purpose.
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  GeneralHowitzerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  DNA of humans regardless of sex or race, points toward one common ancestors, this is according to DISCOVERY CHANNEL... that six days is not literally six days as in days on earth's... words in scriptures are hidden in parables and symbols careful...
  
  Now here are the pitfalls of your so-called evolution crap...
  
  1. There are no fossils that will link two different animals as in evolving from one animal to the other. There is no transition that transpired. Sorry to disappoint you spaghetti... there is no fossil evidence of a fish turning into a reptile or a reptile to a mammal...
  
  2. The so-called missing link between man and ape is still missing or should I say gone forever because there is no such thing that exists.
  
  3. Adaptation is the proper word my friend not evolution. If you would isolate a snake coming from Hawaii to say in another Island off Caribbean this animal will turn into another sub specie or even morph into another specie of still snake not a dragon nyahahaha...
  
  4. The Bible that you are underestimating is the very first thing to state that the earth is round/sphere outperforming the antique Scientists who says it is flat.
  
  5. The history written on this wonderful book is accurate than any other present history books around.
  
  6. evolution is not a "fact" but a theory.
  
  7. There is no human witness then to justify this theory, in other words, evolution will never hurdle the Scientific Method.
  
  8. It is impossible to use Scientific method to test the validity of evolution.
  
  9. Many Scientists believe in creation in contrary to most beliefs.
  
  Amen
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  Neil Sperlingposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I totally disagree with that statement buddy -- study politics in almost any country and you will see what I mean!
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  MikeNVposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The "Flaw" as you try to point out is not with the Biblical Texts but with people who choose to interpret them literally. Phoenix Suns Forward/Center Amare Stoudmire has a fitting tattoo that states "Knowbody Knows".
  
  If you look to the history of the World you will find accounts that coincide with the Bible. But one can not apply what is known today with what was known in ancient times because there was no way to easily record what happened. Paper and the printing press was not available. Language has changed over time.
  
  Study the Sumerians and you learn they knew many things we are just now "relearning".
  
  Take a look at Quantum Physics and the tests that man has devised to understand particles at microscopic levels and a whole new world of misunderstanding appears. Photons that act as both light waves and particles. Photons that can be in more than one place at once. The universe is a vast mystery.
  
  One can make any assumptions they want but science can only prove so much, and the Bible can only say so much.
  
  Choose your belief system and move on with your life. We know one thing for FACT - The body dies.
  
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  Ivorwenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You have trouble with talking snakes? What about all the talking trees?
  
  In the past week I have read several articles here on HP about talking trees, and I was sent an e-mail to a blog with a message from a tree to spread to the whole world.
  
  Somehow, logically, I find it more probable for a snake to talk than a tree, though I have only experienced the latter.
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Randy Godwinposted 14 years ago
Nope, we still talk and are persuasive occasionally.
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  Stimpposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  OMG....I just got a damn chill up my spine...
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Mikedeltaposted 14 years ago
May be the as is explained the punishment for disobeying God's rules made Adam work all his life like a donkey, and Eve to bear the pain of labour, and may be the serpant paid by having his priveldges taken away from him!!
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not buying it.
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
There are many possibilities??
I do not believe in the seven "CONSECUTIVE" day theory!
It is also possible that in the beginning all of creation communicated on a telepathic level. In harmony
With the snakes deceitfulness, this ability was taken away.
Many if not all animals seem to show signs of this ability still today. Possibly when speech began its evolution this telepathic ability began regressing.
The possibilities are limitless.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  hi jerami !
  
  that's 1 of the many possibilities
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, the possibilities are limitless when the possibilites aren't believed as absolute.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  When one belief is agreed upon as absolute, don't you think that all other possibilities are nullified
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How could you logically believe it possible for all individuals to agree on the same absolute when all have individual minds. This would take sacrifice of individual belief. How many individuals are unselfish enough to meet at a common ground? This is only believed through faith.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Again Marine, I don't mean to step on your toes here, but believe it or not- there is a common system of belief that ALL individual minds could work with their entire life and not be selfish or sacrificial of oneself. To give oneself a sole purpose of bettering humankind's existence. This is a collective 'mental' process, each person or individual can believe in and get behind.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Cag's are you a Scientologist?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do try and stay on topic. We(all) know how you like to bring this back to your precious 'religious' texts. So, let's try and keep our eye on the ball, per se, shall we.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I think this is very much 'on topic' because if you are a Scientologist, as I suspect you are (or a simple NO would have sufficed) then obviously you would hold a jaundiced view of the Christian God... especially as (if you were a Scientologist) you would believe in our species arriving from a distant location, making the creationist view distinctly in conflict with your position.
  
  So why not just answer the question and be done with it?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't hold a 'jaundiced', as you say, view about the Christian God. You're the one with a biased faith, unsupported by any real truth.
  
  As for me being a scientologist? No. I am a man of human life. I don't study just a specific part of life. I understand it.
  
  I absorb all knowledge offered, evaluate it in the basis of reality and am able to understand it's meaning. I don't expect you to understand, nor would I expect anyone else to understand.
  
  There is a reason I came to HubPages- I didn't come for fights or insults. I came to spread the knowledge I have and to help people understand it, in it's proper context, as it should be. I don't have to explain what I say, unless someone doesn't know what I'm talking about. However, with that said- it is also the reason for why most of my posts are always long. I make sure that people try not to interpret what I say. There is no interpretation need. Just read the words. You or anyone else, don't see things like I do, but every time I post something, people have a tendency of interpretating it and turning it around for their own use, instead of using the comprehension skills for learning, they have trained themselves to be aggressive and manipulative.
  
  You have issues with anything I have to say, then I suggest remembering ONE key element- Before you can bring in 'creationism' into reality, as a fact- it must be proven.
  
  Science defined Reality. Reality exists free of independent thoughts, desires, will, or wishes. It is all knowable.
  
  Inside- reality- we know "GOD" doesn't exist, therefore rules out 'creationism', on the basis that "GOD" is the creator. If science rules "GOD" non-existent, so it does 'creationism'.
  
  Common-sense goes a long way.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hello Cags, not to interrupt, but even the word reality is not absolute, but just a word we made up. Was reality a word or existance before we created it? The reality of logic is constantly redefined and furthered. I think it would only be limiting to limit the mind to reality. Common sense says I was created by my parents, so a creator of the beginning can't be ruled out. Does an experiment create the scientist or does the scientist create the experiment? Or, it could be both or it could be neither depending on your absolute or non absolute belief.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "Before you can bring in 'creationism' into reality, as a fact- it must be proven."
  
  Your opinion, not formed from experience of the Creator.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And you think it is logical everyone will believe this same belief? Something like that can only be believed through faith. There are a lot of common beliefs, doesn't mean others will believe it. Is murder being wrong absolute?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Now, I think you are being silly. Yes, many people have same beliefs and Yes, people can be on the same page with others, and not be based on faith.
  
  I can see it happening. I can see every puzzle piece that is required to make it happen. Therefore, it's an integrated thought. It's not faith. It's not a belief. It's known that it can happen, because if I didn't know it could be done, as I do, then it would be a belief and would be based on faith. There is NO doubt about it happening or that it could happen. It's only a matter of time. Human survival depends on it.
  
  If you're curious, I have faith in myself. I believe I am one with myself, at all times, simply due to my clarity about life.
  
  And, to answer your second question- Is murder being wrong absolute?
  
  Yes, it is MORALLY WRONG to murder any human being. Hence, again I will demonstrate moral absolutes:
  
  (1) Any CHOSEN action that is beneficial to the human organism or society is morally right or good.
  
  (2) Any CHOSEN action that is harmful to the human organism or society is morally wrong or bad.
  
  Emotions are amoral. Neither right or wrong.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks. If you say murder is wrong as and absolute belief, yet we can't agree as a whole on the belief that murder is wrong, how is murder being wrong absolute?
  
  Killing is contradiction to life. Is this universal truth? If this is universal truth, why do not all of us agree? Why are there wars and the need for wars? How can killing contradict life be a universal truth if we can't all agree and find common ground? How is killing absolute truth when we and animals must sometimes kill to survive? How is killing absolute truth when some beliefs teach killing is great sacrifice to a belief? Is killing being wrong absolute truth when a judicial system has the death penalty that can wrongly convict someone to die?
  
  If there is no absolute truth that killing is wrong, how can there be an absolute truth on anything else?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How is murder being wrong absolute? Are you being serious?
  
  READ MY other post. Any CHOSEN action that is harmful to the human organism or society is MORALLY WRONG or BAD!
  
  What part did you not understand. It's an absolute. Got it?
  
  Put these in an email Marine. I'll answer later. It too much to do here in the forum. Thank you.
  
  Man, do not read what I post. This is the third or fourth time you've asked me to define 'truth'? You don't make sense.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol Don't get angry at me. I agree that murder is wrong and a contradiction to life. You are missing my point.
  
  My point: How many governments would come to that same belief and stop using the death penalty? What does logic tell you? Only faith tells you that is possible. Logic says that not everyone has the same belief of the death penalty being wrong. If not everyone agrees, how is it absolute?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL there is no absolute unless you believe it absolute. I don't believe in any absolutes. There is no absolute truth. Everyone has a different belief of truth. If something was known to all, this doesn't mean it would be believed by all.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You have no belief in absolutes, because you have found yourself yet and still looking for answer for your life. It's understandable. I know it, I was there.
  
  Believe it or not, Truth is not subjective to one's own interpretation, as you think. It's based on factual evidence. That makes the procedure of truth absolute, because when all the facts are known to all or even few- it's still truth, regardless of whether or not, you choose to believe it.
  
  Truth, Life exists on Earth. That is an absolute. Are you now going to tell me that reality isn't truth? Yes, it is, because it's based on factual evidence and is all knowable knowledge.
  
  It's how we distinguish between things that are real and things like 'god' which are fake. I thought you figured that out already. Come on man, let's keep it real.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The truth is, every word you and I write are something we made up to describe things we have no clue about. There are no absolutes unless you believe there are.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm glad you see what you write as being made up, to describe things YOU have no clue about. Don't put me in the same category with you. We maybe equals on the level of being humans, but as for clarity, you've got a ways to go.
  
  Your methodology for thinking, isn't logical, but is rationalized to suit yourself. You stick with that and see how fact you get.
  
  I bid you good day.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think your arrogance in what you think you know limits what you could know. Maybe it isn't logical, but I never claimed sanity. I will stick to my irrational thoughts while your have your arrogant thoughts that you understand everything and know all truth.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Again you're interpretation of my words which are leading to jump to an assumptive belief about what I know, and then you yourself are taking actions to demean my strengthed position, only because you don't understand.
  
  If you don't understand something- then admit it, that you can't wrap your mind around the concept. Don't pawn it off, like it doesn't matter. Because, it actually does.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So you have no arrogance or pride in what you think you know?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Arrogance isn't pride. Boy, where to you get this stuff.
  
  Pride is confidence in your own ability. And, yes I am confident in what I know. But, I am human, like you. I just think differently, so my clarity is better.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Arrogance isn't confidence in your ability?
  lol you think your clarity is better because you think better? You just admitted to being arrogant by admitting having pride in your beliefs. There is no arrogance and pride in logical belief. Pride and arrogance are emotions. Emotions contradict logic. You sure you are the one with logical beliefs? I don't base mine on pride of knowing everything. I base mine on knowing nothing!
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You're understanding is ridiculous man. I had never realized how much until now.
  
  You re-arrange things other say, so you can be arguing. Yes, you are addicted to arguing. Unreal. You need help.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol You know everything right? You still want to say you aren't arrogant? Do you want to tell the life of Jesus again? Or do you want to explain how you know what happens at death when you haven't died yet?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  To answer you first question. No I don't know everything there is to know, but I do know what I need to know about my own life and also able to generalize my knowledge, so I can convey what I learned and how I understood the meaning.
  
  You still want to say you aren't arrogant? Yes, I'm not arrogant, I only appear that way in your view. Therefore, is subjective to your interpretation, because you don't understand.
  
  Do I want to tell the story of Jesus again? No. I don't.
  
  How can I explain what happens after death, when I haven't died yet? Death is the end of life. How much more information do you require. Duh!
  
  See, your questions are easily answered. Now- how you interpret them, will probably no doubt bring more questions, should you feel the need. However, I would like to let you know, any further questions, won't be addressed by me. You want to know more, read more of my hubs to get your explanation. And, as I introduce the next three I have coming...many other answers will be revealed.
  
  So, I'll leave you to whatever it is that you're going to do next. Have fun.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sure the hubs are written in absolute belief as well. You won't tell your interpretation of Jesus again because you are scared and know I will pick it apart and make you look silly. How do you know that you aren't reborn or that life continues in some way after death. You don't. You have faith you know what happens. You can't know until you die. Keep telling yourself that you aren't arrogant in your irrational absolute beliefs.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  foolishness
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Let's hear the story of Jesus logical one.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Have you ever met a slightly pregnant woman, or a mostly dead man?
  
  Are these not absolutes?
  
  Can you defy the laws of gravity without any aid?
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your bible isn't absolute, yet you believe it is.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Now think about that.... If God is God, then the Word He gave us is true and sufficient for all men to find the path to Him.
  
  I accept that in recent years there have been some atrocious translations, yet despite that they still serve to bring people to salvation through Christ.
  
  You may get a twisted theology through relying on them, but then again the Holy Spirit will lead any believer to the whole truth, if they are seeking that truth.
  
  So yes my bible is objective, you either believe it and choose God through Christ, or reject it and choose your own free will and whatever hotch potch of religion you choose to consume.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Just because you believe that doesn't mean everyone else does. Your belief is not absolute. That may be absolute. Your idea of God is not logical. He acts off of childish emotional decisions by killing when angry. Do you kill when you are angry? Your bible is a government. Religion governs through a 1 conscience system. If you don't believe, your conscience tells you that you go to hell. You are arrogant as well in your absolute belief to think all individuals would have the same belief as you. The mind is unmapped and you map yours within a book of belief.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Marine, I'm not saying my belief is absolute, it's the bible that's absolute, and you cannot deny that absolutes do exist, can you?
  
  God does not "act off of childish emotional decisions by killing when angry" - God is slow to anger, for instance with Nineveh he sent Jonah to warn them 150 years before the place was destroyed, with the Jewish race God held His patience for 2000 years more or less, before He sent Christ as a 'final notice' - God is not a God of anger.
  
  "If you don't believe, your conscience tells you that you go to hell."
  
  My conscience never told me that, I did not believe so what had I to fear from the bible? - remember I have spent two thirds of my life as a secular humanist, I can remember how unconcerned I was with scripture.
  
  Now maybe that was because my 'spirit' knew that ultimately I would come to faith and therefore need not fear the bible, or maybe I was just secure in my unbelief at that time and couldn't be bothered to spend time arguing with 'religious nutters' (which is what you guys think I am)
  
  But why do I get such abuse and attacks on these forums.... I had promised myself to stay away, but as it's Thanksgiving, and I'm in Europe, and nobody seems to be hubbing, why not indulge?
  
  If what I speak and write about is of no consequence, then WHY must the atheists attempt to attack my beliefs?
  
  "You are arrogant as well in your absolute belief to think all individuals would have the same belief as you."
  
  Not at all, you can believe whatever you wish to believe, this topic was started by someone with a ridiculous name, but that's their choice and good luck to them, Cag's has strange beliefs, but so what.... I care not one jot about how you or anyone else believes....
  
  But I fail to understand why what I believe challenges you guys so much.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So if I had murdered Adolf Schicklegruber in (say) 1921 I would have been committing a moral wrong, but if I had murdered Adolf Hitler in 1941 I would have been morally right... is that fact?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Is your purpose in life, to be annoying to others? Just thought I would ask, because you question is ridiculous beyond ALL comprehension.
  
  And, I guess I am forced to do this again, because you can't read.
  
  Any CHOSEN action that is harmful to the human organism or to society is MORALLY WRONG or BAD!
  
  So, for your foolish question- BOTH are Morally WRONG! Killing another human being is wrong, regardless of why? It's mankind who bring justice, as a system of control.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Isn't this thread killing you ?
  That would be morally wrong!
  
  Hi cagsil !
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Tantrum,
  
  Actually it would be morally wrong for those who's actions cause me harm. Yeah.
  
  But, I'm not too worried about it. There only words and at the end of the day, I am still me and no worse for wear.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, if you look like your avatar, I think you can cope with everything !
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Tut Tut, calm down Cags, you who have superior knowledge and intellect, make allowances for us simple humans who do not posess your powers....
  
  "Killing another human being is wrong, regardless of why?"
  
  ....seems to not fit in (to my inferior and simple mind) with your other statement;
  
  "Any CHOSEN action that is beneficial to the human organism or society is morally right or good."
  
  Would ANYONE here disagree that killing Herr Hitler in 1921 would have been subsequently "beneficial to the human organism or society" - I mean his actions caused 60 million deaths, so killing him in 1921 would have been a fine thing, even if at that point in time I would have been guilty of murder, and executed, the greater good would have been served, would it not?
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If Hitler would have been your son, would you still think the same way ?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nice point.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, had I known that he would kill and abuse humanity in such numbers.
  
  I doubt that I personally would have killed my own son, but had I been able to see from his demeanour and attitude that he was intrinsically evil, then so be it.
  
  We believers are used to accepting that the greater good must prevail, and as Moses demonstrated, if your son is killed, yet belongs to God, he is not lost, if he doesn't belong to God, he is no actual loss, for death would separate you and obliterate any memory of him.
  
  I am (have been) at best a custodian of my children, they are not mine, they belong to God, if they choose to follow a different route, they still belong to God, I would have just failed in my God given task to 'teach them the ways of God as we walkd in the highways and byways'
  
  I personally believe that God did not allow Herr Hitler's death before time, humanity needed to be shown what having their own way led to, and boy were humanity shown.
  
  “They came for the Communists, but I didn't speak up because I was none of those. Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak up because I didn't practice a trade. Then they came for the Catholics, and I was a Protestant so I didn't speak up. Then they came for me... by that time there was no one left to speak up." (Martin Niemoller (1892-1984))
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your post is one of the reasons why I don't believe.
  And I'm happy I'm not your daughter.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well I'm 58, so judging by your young avatar, you could have been my daughter, but never mind that, I am content you are not my daughter as it stands.
  
  My daughter will be taught the ways of God, she will also be taught the ways of the world, she will (and is) being taught to THINK and DECIDE for herself.
  
  If she chooses to follow God, that's fine, if she decides to reject God, that's fine, I just will have to accept that she will eventually be lost to me for eternity if she continues in her rejection and rebellion, but our love and acceptance of her will be total and unconditional for the whole of our lives.
  
  We practice Agape love, it's not conditional, it's not judgemental, but it does understand how God functions, and at base camp, the rules are choose Him or reject Him, there are ONLY ABSOLUTES in Gods Kingdom, which is why subjective folk cannot accept it.
  
  It's confrontational and aggressive, but totally tolerant, you can be as wrong as you please and we will forgive you (as God will also) - but there are no compromises in the Kingdom of God, you either qualify or you do not. Believers will not lie to you to make you feel better.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Being your daughter was a way of saying, as you wrote about youe children upbringing, which I don't like for me.
  My young avatar is not that young. I'm nearer your age than your daughter. But I think that's not the point.
  
  The point is I find difficulty in believing so rigid beliefs.
  and about your answer to my question if Hitler would have been your son.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  OK tantrum (who I count as a 'good guy')
  
  Let's explore... I went through all my 'tolerant and subjective' viewpoints between 11 and 41 years of age. On my 'mental wall' I had 'THINK WHY' when most everyone else had 'WHY THINK' and I paid for the privilege of having my own thoughts and opinions.
  
  Over that 30 year period I examined everything I came into contact with that would or could shape my life, I was Mr Tolerance personified and got to the rational point that;
  
  "I reached a point where I totally worshipped the individual, placed their rights above all other considerations, stated that serial killers were also entitled to their life-style, that life was a sequence of random chance situations, with only the start and finishing points predetermined, but I believed that these points, of birth and death, were not preordained, just happened or were chosen by an individual".
  
  (http://hubpages.com/hub/The-J-Word)
  
  Nobody accused me of rigid belief thinking then.
  
  So to rephrase the question:
  
  Would I have been right to not stop Hitler's death had he been my son, and had I seen the evil intent in his mind?
  
  When I came to faith, guess what, I spent another three years re examining my every belief against the Word of God, and threw most of it out to start again.
  
  The bible is a complete manual for life, you can answer any question from it's pages, that you need to answer.
  
  I chose 16 years ago to replace my 'Operating System' with a superior version.
  
  Just like Windoze users can never truly appreciate Mac until they have tried and lived with it, so it is with the world and Christ.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Aww,
  
  So - how come you are so nasty, Daddy? Will you ask her if she is skeered to deny the holy spirit?
  
  Is that what jesus tells you to do, Daddy?
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Evening Mark, or is this Evo your alter ego?
  
  Boy that Holy Spirit thing really got to you didn't it, now either stay on topic or take the venom elsewhere.
  
  John
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Venom? LOL
  
  Me? LOL
  
  OK Sorry Daddy - I will not be sick any more.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The action of 'killing' or 'murdering' any human being is morally wrong.
  
  Any CHOSEN action that is HARMFUL to the human organism or to society is morally wrong or bad.
  
  Yes, I get your point, and had people had a better understanding of their own life- Hilter wouldn't come to be in the first place.
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Mikedeltaposted 14 years ago
yes quite a strong possibility, how else would one communicate with God other than through a thought process, (telephatic communication) and it may well have been God's plan to evolve man out of an ape! what the bible describes of the earth and heavens being created in 6 days may well be billions of years of our time rather than his. like I said we sue don't know .

But Ok it is reasonable to assume that some of the things stated in Bible or in many other religious books do not make logical sense, but despite so much advanced knowledge, we are still not sure how exactly the universe was formed in the first place, where it came from, what triggered it, etc etc, perhaphs our creator didn't think it is necessary for us to know that, we craeted Dolly the sheep, through an experiment, but that dolly the sheep doesn't know and need not know who created it., as long as she gives us some milk, chews grass, makes offspirings, her role is fullfilled, thats what we have asked of it, but wjhat a shame we copied the DNA or stole it froma real sheep first created by someone else or through another process!!
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Randy Godwinposted 14 years ago
I'm not too sure about animals having the ability to telepathically communicate. Many species have other means, such as visual signals and the ability to smell fear in their fellow creatures. These are instincts developed over thousands, if not millions of years.

By stating these animals can think and rationalize opens a new can of worms. If they can think and use logic does this mean they have souls? Do they sin as man does? See what I'm getting at?
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Only if you believe in fables.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I only suggested this as a possibility..
  As such the diffrent species would have diffrent levels of this ability the same as diffrent people have diffrent levels of linguistic skills. Man at the top with Dolphins and so on down the totem pole.
  As I mentioned earlier I state this as purely a possibility to not be ignored
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So where is the line drawn? Chimpanzee's could have souls, or are we humans the only decider's of such things?
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  sorry about the delayed answer I'm deep frying some turkeys for myself and a couple a friends and family. Don't want um waiting dinner for me.
  
  I don't know where to draw any line or if we can. I know nothing and have been acused of thinking very little.
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kephriraposted 14 years ago
The thing that always got me about the biblical creation story was that adam and eve ate from the tree of knowledge, and gained knowledge, and so were punished 'lest they also eat from the tree of life and live forever' Basically that is saying that humanity could have knowledge and eternal life, but God prefered for us to die ignorant. If the bible is true then god doesn't sound very nice to me.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  God didn't want us to know evil, if you read in context.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  An omnipotent, vengeful, jealous god who doesn't get what he wants. Yeah right!
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How could you know good if you didn't know evil?
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Have been frying turkeys; Got one left; MINE. so am sorry for slow answers.
  My "interpretation" of the story would be that with God being all knowing and all, when this story was told and later written it was from mans prospective. When God created man he wanted to SEE that his creation did in fact have free will.
  The test would not have been to see if Adam and Eve were Prue of thought but were they capable of free will.
  If you were to create a little robot you would first take it off of the table and wind it up and see if it does what it is supposed to. I think that God did the same thing. As we know the experiment was a success.
  When the bible story is believed we must remember that it was written from mans prospective.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If an entity is omniscient there would be no need to "test" anything! Proof that the god of the bible is merely a human concoction.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You forgot that the original story written in biblical scripture as well as my fictional analogy was written from mans prospective.
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thetruthhurts2009posted 14 years ago
I have no problem with variations, genetic recombination, adaptations, transduction, mutations, transformation, vital enzyme exchange through plasmids, natural selection, conjugation within a KIND, it’s biblical, observational and a proven fact, but when you Darwinist try to take leap of faith with “Give it enough time you turn anything to anything look at these bones” that where it stops being science and becomes a pseudoscientific religion. The biggest fallacies in the evolutionary atheist argument the are a philosophy pseudo scientific religion with no base they have no logical answer for how it all began, where did the information came from, but without a superior answer to that they’ll still proclaim there is no God. It’s a dizzying intellect.

Evolutionists seem to think variations, genetic recombination, adaptations, mutations conjugation within a kind + TIME god= apes to human, but that's simply impossible. "The amount of information in the 3 billion base pairs in the DNA in every human cell has been estimated to be equivalent to that in 1,000 books of encyclopedia size. If humans were 'only' 4% different this still amounts to 120 million base pairs, equivalent to approximately 12 million words, or 40 large books of information. This is surely an impossible barrier for mutations (random changes) to cross" Dr. Don Batten, Ph.D.

Let's Compare:
Evolutionism- Long ago and far away nothing exploded and everything came to be earth(0+0=1) was a hot molten planet and with millions of years of rained cooled down and created we became soup(proteins can’t form in water) and a miracle occurred that life came from non-life(never observed we have no proof of this and we can’t duplicate it but please have faith). A fish-like creator came out of a lake with lungs or gill(the jury is still out) had to find something to eat and had to learn how to see eat, smell, and mate(again no proof) and the princess kissed the frog and the frog through billions of years(using flawed dating methods, with numerous faulty assumptions) became man. That’s logical? I don’t have that much faith.

Creation- IN THE BEGINING GOD CREATED. Proof: The Holy Bible and everything we see, and observable science.
I'll stick with The Creation Account.

I'm sorry your ridiculously strong faith in atheism has been misplaced, but don't let the facts stand in your way. Keep the faith and remember Darwin and Dawkins are so proud of you!

Can you handle the truth?
http://hubpages.com/hub/Can-You-Handle- … uth-of-God

I won’t respond today, but Have a Happy Thanksgiving you all!
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I do understand that everyone wants instant answers to all questions even when those answers are not readily available or simply haven't been found yet, but it certainly isn't a leap of intellect to invoke answers of invisible magical beings if you aren't satisfied with the unknown.
  
  What do your calculations have to do with anything? Do they prove god exist?
  
  So, essentially what you're saying, is that because scientists haven't been able to carry on an experiment for millions of years to demonstrate what has been underway for millions of years somehow invalidates what has been underway for millions of years?
  
  You also clearly have no understanding of such processes.
  
  Yes, I can also see how instant answers of magic to hard terrestrial questions would appease those who don't understand or refuse to understand. Well done.
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thetruthhurts2009posted 14 years ago

Enjoy your day!
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Scott.Lifeposted 14 years ago
Anytime someone asks you to show concrete proof to somehow validate their faith, the argument is flawed and over. My question is who is trying to validate what in this ongoing insane discussion. What's the point in scientific proof when the religionists refuse to accept it every time? There are literally mountains of scientific data that would take months to compile and publish on this forum, but every single ounce of it would be unaccepted by the religious on here much as it has been for the past three months. Religion asks science for undisputed proof while providing none itself. On and on and on. Why does science need to prove anything to people that supposedly base their belief on faith? Where is your faith believers when you need science to prove you right? That's exactly what you are doing with arguments like these; asking science to prove your belief and justify your faith, that's ironic, and sad.

Insanity: repeating a thing over and over again while expecting a different result, ie... the God versus Science debate.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  We are all insane!
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  Scott.Lifeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  To one degree or another it would appear. @ Mark, in your post lies the very example of my point. If you provide a fact that is true it will automatically be shot down by "literal believers", why? because it harms their stance and view and calls their motives and beliefs into question at which point they can either questions themselves and God, or question the facts, and we all know how that ends. Faith is a funny thing, I have watched as many new, and born again believers have gone out in the world to express their new faith and belief in the missions fields, only to collapse in two to four years as reality sets in and the burden of looking at the world through a bible tinted glass beats them down. I wish all you new believers luck as you set forth in your spiritual infancy, and hope as you grow your reason and temperance catch up to your zeal before reality smacks you to the ground.
  
  Happy Thanksgiving Americans....see you all next week.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank You! Happy Thanksgiving.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well - I feel like I am helping whoever it is that hides behind the username thetruthhurts.
  
  Clearly - he or she has discovered that scientific proofs contradict their beliefs. All the time they spend attacking science - they do not have to examine their beliefs.
  
  Plus - as I keep trying to get them to understand - I am not talking to them.
  
  These are open forums and any outsider looking in can only come to one conclusion. They are helping to eradicate their belief system. It may take generations but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
  
  How long before human females start asking "do you believe in evolution" as a mating requirement?
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do you think we are all insane?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think you are going to have to define, "sane," before I can answer that question.
  
  And - I am off out - so Happy Thanksgiving to all my American friends.
  
  Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday. I adopted it while living in the US. It is like Christmas without all the religious crap and presents no one needs.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Me too! The traditional gorging of food awaits, followed by a nap of course. Happy Thanksgiving to All!
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  All travelers, be safe.
  Don't drive like an idiot if you are in Michigan - I'm about to hit the road myself. Be nice to me.
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Happy Thanksgiving!
  Main Entry: sane
  Pronunciation: \ˈsān\
  Function: adjective
  Inflected Form(s): san·er; san·est
  Etymology: Latin sanus healthy, sane
  Date: 1628
  1 : proceeding from a sound mind : rational
  2 : mentally sound; especially : able to anticipate and appraise the effect of one's actions
  
  Do you accept the Einstein definition of insane?
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh evolution guy I'm not attacking science, evolution is a religion and you're a fundamentalist, just because you cannot answers questions regarding your religion, speaks volumes.
  
  http://www.trueorigin.org/theobald1a.asp
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Are you scared to answer me? Afraid to let the devil in?
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Some of us already do that
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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lyricsingrayposted 14 years ago
I like snakes
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How about sharing an apple with me, it'll make you smart!
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Dolores Monetposted 14 years ago
I had a snake ask me directions the other day but I just ignored him.
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marinealways24posted 14 years ago
Could this be the answer to the thread question? That the fatal flaw in any "ism" or belief is that we are all insane!
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Dolores Monetposted 14 years ago
Actually, when I was a kid, the question of the creation was brought up to a Catholic priest. 'How could God create the whole world in one week?' the kid asked.
Priest smiled and said, 'maybe God's weeks are a little longer than ours.' And so, the creation and evolution are the same thing.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, creation would be more along the lines of abiogenesis, not evolution.
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yoshi97posted 14 years ago
I saw something on TV about Simon of Peraea the other night. It gave me a lot to think about ...
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Dickens007posted 14 years ago
God, where does he come from and why did he make us, because if he created the universe who created him . mybe he came fom another dimension just a thought
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting question. I've heard answers from theists that god is eternal, while on the other hand they continually reject scientific theories because they also claim there is no cause to the universe coming about on it's own.
  
  So, what is the "cause" of god?
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  I would think with all certainty that he would have come from a diffrent dimension. That is also where our afterlife will be. But only after we develop ourselves in a way that that is the kind of place that we will enjoy being. Different places in diffrent dimensions, The sheep and goats are separated to two diffrent places where they will both the happiest.
  Not exactly but something like that? MAYBE????
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  These questions were specifically designed to give path for the 'god' concept to be. Ancient theologians constantly use the Why not ask Why? concept, so to gain support of whatever it is that they are endorsing. The 'greedy' people who support the 'church' continue this rampant line of B.S., so as to keep people from knowing or learning the truth.
  
  Creationism is only supported by 'church' and those academics who know 'where their bread is buttered', so as usurp power, wealth and other things, at the hands of those who don't know any better.
  
  That's it.
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awareposted 14 years ago
i think of creationism differently than that
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kolakukuposted 14 years ago
All the religious books attest to fact that there is a creator. This creator is responsible for all creations. He is sovereign and does things the way He likes. He laid down the rules and meted out blessings for obedience and punishment for disobedience and such was held in the Adamic sin, - bringing an everlasting curse to man and; then the serpent's privileges withdrawn hence the serpent's power of speech lost forever. This is my understanding. This creator is GOD
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marinealways24posted 14 years ago
The cheerleader has arrived!
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awareposted 14 years ago
i would have raised hitler to be a better person
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  do you really think that parents of criminals are to be blamed ??
  In all the cases ??
  What a preconcept !!
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  awareposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And you know what aware- he might have been a better person, even with you as his provider.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Why are you so ironic, cagsil ?? You make me laugh so much !
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awareposted 14 years ago
ohhps no i agree with you on that tantrum.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  U R aware !
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awareposted 14 years ago
i am a creator
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awareposted 14 years ago
humans all are
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bojanglesk8posted 14 years ago
I don't get it.
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
@ aquasilver

I could never destroy my son /daughter in any way. Wouldn't give them in, no matter what.

That's all I have to say
I'm not going to debate my beliefs or yours.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Fair enough, I never started the discussion anyway!
  
  All I seek is the tolerance that you all demand.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  BTW "I could never destroy my son /daughter in any way." I have never said I could destroy my children either, my question was whether I would be a bad man for destroying Mrs' Hitler's little man.
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
this thread reminds me of

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb158OxerRU
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thevoiceposted 14 years ago
God Jesus the holy spirit are holy human life truth birth life in all the world. The great human holy freedom of all human life on God earth is coming for all people.

New world faith is birth right of God blood of Jesus for the billions of God children in human hell on earth. this God earth humanity religions have plunders Gods earth children for to long
God Jesus the holy spirit are human birth right in love of God in all nations on earth. The freedom of God people God earth is coming for all humanity. The sale killing starvation of human life has gone on for to long.
Happy thanks giving from birth right freedom life of God Jesus the holy spirit. THe world of human life is God onm God earth time for us all top help free all God people on God earth
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sooner than laterposted 14 years ago
tool
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Spaghetti Monsterposted 14 years ago
Holy Linguini!

Who would have thought that my pondering little post could have unleashed so many responses!

Just goes to show that the piranha pond that is the hubpages religious forum is still ravenously hungry!

Plenty of pasta and meatballs at the table of the Flying Spaghetti Monster if you'd like to partake!

RAmen.
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awareposted 14 years ago
who is this mark knowles?
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lyricsingrayposted 14 years ago
snakes talk?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, they're called Politicians.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Politicians don't talk....they spew lies, spun to be truth.
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Spewing is a fairly accurate analogy.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  what's funny about that ?
  thanks to the talking snake we're out of Paradise !
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tantrumposted 14 years ago

Hope they're ready !
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ready and waiting, watching and praying, yet still trying to haul the last lost souls out of their rebellion.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  that would be very wrong !
  I pass !
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What would be wrong? - believers still trying or you taking up the offer?
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Believers still trying of course!!
  what a question !
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Matthew 18:12
  
  "What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off?
  
  And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off.
  
  In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.
  
  You see tantrum, we don't have an option, our Lord commands us to keep trying until it's too late for you to enter the sheep fold.
  
  Sorry, I know you don't like that, but it's just how it is.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not sorry!
  you're the one wasting your time !
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
SO WHAT ?
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lyricsingrayposted 14 years ago
someone said attract
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awareposted 14 years ago
we still talkin creationism?
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Denno66posted 14 years ago
not if it's same
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sooner than laterposted 14 years ago
there are a lot more flaws than that, but that is a fair start.
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  GeneralHowitzerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah these are just the tip of the iceberg...
  
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wow - now you have decided to educate us - where do it sez in teh bible wot the erf is a sphere?
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  GeneralHowitzerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Whatever Mark
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Isaiah 40:21-23 (New International Version)
  
  21 Do you not know?
  Have you not heard?
  Has it not been told you from the beginning?
  Have you not understood since the earth was founded?
  
  22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
  and its people are like grasshoppers.
  He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
  and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
  
  23 He brings princes to naught
  and reduces the rulers of this world to nothing.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Really? Rulers of this world to nothing ??
  where ?
  ask the citizens of U S A
  or Irak, Afghanistan, etc etc etc
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Tantrum, stop digging, the hole is deep enough!
  
  Any look at the last few centuries will show where God has reduced rulers to nothing, we are not talking about cash here, we are talking about power.
  
  The fool exerts their authority without recognising that ALL POWER AND AUTHORITY belong to Christ.
  
  God just levels the scoreboard when it suits the scenario, His scenario....
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It looks his scenario is way out of his hands then !
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  as I say before, an 'scensrio' way out of his hands !
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well that's a safe post to make Cags....and so meaningful and relevant!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well - I was asking the General, but since you supplied it - Now I am confused.
  
  I do not see the word "sphere" here.
  
  A circle is a two dimensional shape, and the rest of the passage rather confirms that viewpoint.
  
  I would have thought a god as powerful as yours could have managed to be a little more clear.
  
  No?
  
  Does this constitute proof that the bible is total garbage because it cannot correctly identify the shape of the earth?
  
  Works for me.
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  prettydarkhorseposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  GH< not yet sleeping Professor? hmmmmm, you get sleepless nights....3 am in the Philippines, you get sleepless nights defending your belief in GOD! mabuhay Ka......
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GeneralHowitzerposted 14 years ago
Here is one more slug:

Evolution cannot even explain the "Which Came First, Egg or Chicken" crap nyahahaha remarkable theory indeed...
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  awareposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  egg came first. dinos laid eggs before there were chickens
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The fact that evolution can indeed explain your childish rant would be sufficient enough for you to feel utterly embarrassed with your claim.
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  GeneralHowitzerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  come out in the open then argue don't hide on a ghost account... you're the one that is childish... playing hide and seek...
  
  This is not a claim and this egg and chicken crap is a chink in evolution's armor...
  
  You are borrowing strength from cowardice...
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And, it's clear you're simply just trolling. You've already demonstrated you're not interested in evidence or discussion and are just playing childish games.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Actually 'Q' (whoever you really are) I've presented chapter and verse to two of Mark K's 'so give me proofs' and there have been no responses whatsoever, which is to be expected because this little gaggle of atheists are only instructed to disrupt, not engage in debates they must lose.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I had a look back, is this the quote you refer?
  
  "Isaiah 27 (King James Version)
  
  Isaiah 27
  In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea."
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That's one of them, thanks for looking back.
  
  Apologies for slow response times, I'm making 14 kilos of seville orange marmelade... so have to keep dashing off!
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I can't really see the similarities between dinosaurs and dragons. In fact, dragons were believed to exist back then, the fire breathing kind we see in movies like 'Shrek'. Is there some explanation that would direct your quote to dinosaurs?
  
  No apologies necessary, sounds like fun.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  First we only invented the name 'dinosaur' about 100 years ago, so that makes it difficult to correlate the two references, but having said that, the question was regarding 'dinosaur' being mentioned in the bible, well as the bible was written over a two thousand year period, and completed in the early part of the 1st century, the actual word 'dinosaur'would not appear, but the description fits at least in part to some varieties of 'dinosaur'.
  
  It's a bit like in Ezekiel there is a fair description of an Apache attack helicopter, but Zeke would have no idea what God was describing when he was spoken to. He just took dictation.
  
  Back to the marmalade, really sweet and at the same time bitter!
  
  Then off to bed (I'm in Spain) back to answer further if needed, mañana...
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sooner than laterposted 14 years ago
i would agree with that aquasilver.
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  GeneralHowitzerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah I believe in that too, History will tell us of how great, haughty and arrogant leaders were... seen crushing down to earth... because of God's providence...
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you....
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Denno66posted 14 years ago
And God created Dinosaurs.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Where is your proof of that?
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He gave me a hand-written note.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Cool Please present it to the nearest religious crime lab for experimentation.
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And become a Saint? Nah, they kill their Saints, you know.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Isaiah 27 (King James Version)
  
  Isaiah 27
  In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
  
  ...keep digging Mark...
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Keep digging your grave, aqua !
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awareposted 14 years ago
i dont think god did
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, he did. He told me.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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prettydarkhorseposted 14 years ago
I really dont want to believe that I came from monkeys, they are ugly...hmmmm, and smelly too...
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  GeneralHowitzerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But how come some people look like horse hehehe (just kidding), would they evolve from horse too... LOL
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awareposted 14 years ago
unique conditions spawned life i think
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Life exists, because Earth evolved human life and the conditions for which they could live.
  
  Yes, I'll agree.
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awareposted 14 years ago
why does god have to be a he?
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Or a she or a dog or a.....
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awareposted 14 years ago
back in the day when me and jesus use to go to school together.he once told me this while we were puken drunk. my mom cheated on god . actually im the mailmans kid
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Aware. Help yourself to some coffee and donuts in the back of the room.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  and I know it's true, because I was there !
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Mom?
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't mean you to find it this way, darling !
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Therapy!!!Um, nah, Morphine!!!!
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  You don't like me as a mom ??
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Even more intelligent contribution....
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  <snipped - no personal attacks in the Forums>
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you Cags... that arrangement suits me perfectly, you will stop making inane and senseless replies to me.
  
  I like it!
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  sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  caulfliposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The fool has said in his heart there is no God. Psalm 14:1a
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awareposted 14 years ago
thats the problem with the bible and other holy books their so out dated . i mean who uses a 1 ad version of the dictionary? or drives with a 1830s map?
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  sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Has human nature evolved?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You religionists are certainly doing your damnedest to make sure it doesn't.
  
  Why is that?
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  sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  why- do you want beastiality legal too?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What?
  
  If you want - sure. As long as it is with consenting sheeple. Why not?
  
  But once again - excellent diversion away from a point made.
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  sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  you had a point. I missed it. K- back up and state it again, I will try to take it as serious as you do for other peoples 'point'.
  
  boo hoo.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Have you noticed what 'human nature' has 'evolved' into? - and we couldn't do anything to stop evolution, if evolution were true, so the problem of man not 'evolving' must be on your side of the fence.
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awareposted 14 years ago
human nature ?
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awareposted 14 years ago
whats happening?
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Denno66posted 14 years ago
That was nice.
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awareposted 14 years ago
sooner we cool?
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  sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yes.
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Creationism - The Fatal Flaw

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Creationism - The Fatal Flaw

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