God WILLl have the last say

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donnaisabellaposted 13 years ago
I have not been in the forums for months. But amazingly, not surprisingly, people are still kicking against the 'goads'. No matter what we do or say, no matter how hard we kick, sneer, mock scream, rationalize and go up and down to show our evidence, hypothesis or whatever it is, God (Jehovah: In case you are in doubt which God I am talking about) will still have the last say. That makes me smile. So, do not jump in to say something, think a little while....
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  Michael Adams1959posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I like that, think a minute what you will say, I like that
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend donnaisabella
  
  I don't agree with you, sorry.
  
  I think if one is of positive thinking and one doesn't have a negative thinking meaning one is not Skeptic; then one is evolved very natuallay to believe in the ONE Creator- God Allah YHWH; there is no doubt about it. Even then one can smile while treading on the truthful path and being very sure of it. A good smile is good for one's health.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I raised no argument about God. My God is Yahweh. I go to Him through Christ Jesus. If Christ is your messiah too, welcome bro! As for being a peaceful muslim, I can only say, Christ has given me the peace to rest in Him. I have nothing to fear.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There are many fine people living nice lives being positive. There are many people who seem to be good and nice and full of sweetness. Where does it say that god owes these people anything?
  If ye believe on the Lord jesus christ and admit that all have sinned and come short of the glory of god and ask for remission of sin through repentance, then shall ye know god and no other way, for those that come up through the back way or by another door will in no wise inherit the things of god. Pretty simple directions.
  
  i am yochanan a peaceful christian
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Jehovah???
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  TYPOLADYposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  in gods holy word the bible it says in psalms 83:18 That men may know that,thou,whose name alone is Jehovah,art the most high over all the earth.
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  eternaltreasuresposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  GOD will have the LAST LAUGH
  
  Pro 1:24 Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,
  Pro 1:25 because you have ignored all my counsel and would have none of my reproof,
  Pro 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when terror strikes you,
  Pro 1:27 when terror strikes you like a storm and your calamity comes like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come upon you.
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  kimberlyslyricsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Have a good time and please do let us know what the dude says, oh shoot you can't, because he is going to have the last say
  
  my mistake
  
  btw am I the one who has had the last say?
  
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Pandoras Boxposted 13 years ago
Good luck with that. Smile away.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with both of you.
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LeanManposted 13 years ago
Will he be posting on the "last one to post is the winner" thread???
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, by the way, thanks for the reminder. That is what was on my mind when I wrote this. Every body wants to be a winner. Do not waste your time, God will have the last say eventually.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wow - He is that pathetic? Dear me. My god wouldn't need to say anything - and He certainly wouldn't need someone like you threatening in his name. Can't you think up a decent god that doesn't need people like you to threaten us with him?
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  Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Mark
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I knew! I knew! I knew! Hi Mark. It has been long brother.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why is he waiting so long? There are folks dying down here. Since you are apparently on close terms with him, ask him to get the lead out. He'll probably listen to you!
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Acording to what is written in the bible; God promised to give a false religion 42 months to do its thang.
  (Prophetic months is diffrent than our months)
  
  If I got it figured right? those 42 months will soon be over ...very soon.
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  sabrebIadeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I read that "Revelation 11:2,3 shows that the prophetic month contains 30 days."
  That's 1260 days.
  Do you have a different formula for the months?
  I'm always open to new interpretations.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  A prophetic Month contains 30 Prophetic days.
  Many theologians teach that a day is a year which is not correct.
  
  Gabriel reveals the proper comparison in Daniel 9
  
  !st verse identifies the year that the events in that chapter ocured. 538 BC
  He said that in 62 weeks they were going to kill the Messiah.
  
  568 years later later they did If Jesus was the Messiah.
  62 weeks = 568 years
  
  That is the way I figure it. 7 days = approx 9.1 to 9.2 earthly years.
  Seems pretty simple to me. 43 months would be approx 1650 of our years I think
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  sabrebIadeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Okay thanks.
  Just curious.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There are many false religions, including Christianity. Which one did God give the time limit to?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry about the delay; a thunder storm rolled over head and I temporarily lost satalite...
  To answer your question
  This as hard answer for such a simple question.
  To put it simply Organized religion is the beast that was given 42 months.
  How long 42 monthes is, is another issue but 1260 days is approx 1638 to 1656 of our years.
  That forty two months began around 359 or 380 AD. or something and would end between.... 1997 to 2036.
  
  There are other factors we could consider that can close this figure a little tighter but I do not want to get into all of the details now .
  
  But this can be closed in to about 2012 and 2015.
  
  By using the 9.1 to 9.2 years = a week equation whenever a prophesy stipulates a time frame draws a explicit picture.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And if you are wrong you will be in good company with many other "doomsday" advocates who thought THEY knew when this would happen.
  
  This is what comes of believing ancient superstitious writings by ancient superstitious people. I wouldn't waste ten seconds even considering the prophecies of illiterate unwashed goat herders.
  
  But that is just me. But we will only have to wait five years at most to find out if you are right. And if you are wrong will this make any difference in your beliefs? Of course not, you will just read more of the same junk and form even more assumptions. But I suppose you enjoy this or you wouldn't spend so much time on it. So, enjoy yourself and good luck on the time line.
  
  Perhaps you will be the first to be right! LOL! Seeya Jerami!
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am not predicting an end of the world.
  To do that would be making an interpretation. Dooms Day is an interpretation
  
  You have read more into what I am saying than what I actually said.
  All that I have done is to analitically applied a mathmatical calculation based upon 62 weeks = 568 years,
  Without interpreting a meaning to the prophesy but working a math problem.
  42 months = approx 1650 years that some kind of organization is said to reak havock upon the world.
  
  Who could that be?
  we can apply this equation to all prophesy that contains a timeframe and a beginning point and see what ever we see.
  
  I can tell ya one thing! that is; anyone that does this will have false interpretations falling off of them like dead flys.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But this is so vague as to be not even worth mentioning, Jerami. And dead flies do not prevent anyone from making more out of superstitious words than they ever have.
  
  These interpreted words do affect some peoples minds though. And seldom in a positive manner. There's more harm in them than good!
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I gotta go to bed in a minute but before I do I wanted to say that ...You are right.
  interpretations are a bad thing. they do more harm than good.
  
  And yes the previous statement was vague, But for anyone that wants to understand prophesy it is a little bitty key that opens a door to very large room full of a lot of questions and answers.
  
  Good nite Randy; enjoyed the conversation.
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Chill people. Sometimes an end is good- if its natural. Who wants to go on for ever doing the same thing anyway. But if The end is Calculable or not, we will know for sure eventually. Time has a way of proving things. I believe in the bible. But if anyone would stop and think...humans cant really tell the future. They can only make educated guesses based on the information at hand. And as for the bible.. It says that no man will know the hour or the day in which the Lord comes. only the Father in Heaven will know-Mark 19:32. The only thing you can do is get your hearts ready for that day.But even if the" God-Thing" werent true, the christians-allthough not perfect and still sin, would still be t-r-y-i-n-g to do the right thing or (let me rephrase that), a good and moral thing by causing a positive belief system in this hopeless world. And when they leave this world, they would have less regrets and a sound mind by the time their bodies are layed to rest. In other words they would be free from a guilty consious.It's not really that far-fetched of a concept. It's all about peace and love and joy.M y life has improved and I am alot happier and healthier being freed from drugs and alcohol. And it's all because of my belief in the love of a God that has good thoughts of us, thoughts of peace and not evil, and to give us a future and a hope. Jeremiah-29:11. You see...Everything bad in this world is because we dal with the consequences of our actions...our decisions. We are faced with choices. If we make the wrong choice-well, we have to deal with it till its over. But thats the ABC"S of life basically. But in the belief of a christian, they don't have to deal with it alone. They have a God that sees them through it and gives them the strength to persevere. I'm not enforcing my belief on you. Your entitled to your own. I just wanted to let you know soe of my reasons for believing. But wether you believeor not, I hope God Blesses you daily.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Of course you are entitled to your beliefs, no matter how vague and confusing other superstitious people have decided they should be. Religion isn't required for a person to do good. Many would have you think so, however.
  
  Religion always has been, and still is, a way to control people and to gain power for the controllers. As simple as that! If you think you meed a god to be a good person, then you probably do!
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Religion isn't a hope for me personally to do good. I've always been a good person towards every one and in life in general. It is a hope in something better in man kind. when you don't have hope with all this craziness and chaos in the world, what do you have. If you are in the right church who preaches about the gospel-not man made rules and dictations, then everything is a choice. You choose to believe or not, you choose to do good or not, you choose to love or not, etc. Eventhough you still have those choices when your not a christian, Beliveing in God helps to create love either way. Have you read the bible? Do you know what the theme of the bible is? The theme is LOVE. It can't get any greater than that. God created us with a free will. We either choose to accept him or we don't. If he was a god, controlling our every move-like Hitler, we wouldn't have free will. We wouldn't have a choice. Where there is a feeling like people are trying to control you then that is not of God. Christianity is not a list of do's and don'ts, it is about moral choices and real love for all creation.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  You only read PART of the bible! Right?
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's true that I havent read it all. I have read most of it though. I am aware of destruction on cities in the bible and other things. Sometimes the trash has to be cleaned up. Right. God showed mercy on those that repented. he has also showed mercy on those that continue to do wrong. Like Child rapists for example. some are still alive and some even walk the street. But even nature itself has a way of balancing out life-sort of out with the old in with the new. Either way, if this is what you were refering to when you sent your reply, getitrite, I know that God wants the best for us. Do you have children? If there were a lot of negative things in your childs life, wouldn't you do what it takes to try to change that? Thats all God is doing. I am thankful there is someone-even spiritual, out there that knows what he's doing. Look how crappy the world has gotten lately. This is the result of man taking control. not God. he gave us a choice and mankind chose to refuse him. If we didnt refuse him, life would be so much simpler. God didn't cause this destruction in all these countries, we as a human race did. But I guess it just comes down to what it is each of us believe in. I still say "Good God Bad Devil". God Can't lie or hate. The only thing god can hate is hatred itself.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Do you realize that you are spinning this to make a genocidal, spiteful, merciless, maniac look like he's all about love.
  
  Please understand that drowning the entire population of the earth is not just "cleaning out the trash" it's murder.
  
  Killing the first born of each household is not "cleaning out the trash" it's murder, and totally unfair, petty, and evil.
  
  Can you see the trick? You don't need this nonsense to flourish. You just need to accept reality.
  
  This is NOT a god of love, and if millions of people weren't brainwashed, they could see it.
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  sandieganlizposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Say it any way you like, but organized religion has its flaws. For instance, if Christianity is all about spreading love and hope, then why does the denomination impede on other cultures, claiming to spread the word, when really they just want to take over and control the people? "Oh, we'll give you God if you give us all your resources!" "Accept God in your Life OR Go to Hell." Please! If God really wanted Christianity to spread truth, hope, and love, God woulda made it the perfect religion. Did God make it the perfect religion, or was it the guns and mind-control from the eager, power-searching, greedy followers whom claimed it was "Manifest Destiny?" (God's Will, right?) Not to say that Christians don't spread love, hope, and joy (whether it be false or not) but they also spread fear, control, and ultimatums. It may make you happy and serene one day, but it will make you feel dirty and sinful the next! Puh-lease; happiness and peace come from within and from one's own surroundings and affiliates, and in hope, knowing this world ISN'T the end because eventually one dies! If you take a closer look at the history of organized religions, you will see a congregation set on enclosing boundaries, prejudices, and high-moral standards, with the latter being okay, in my opinion. Some of us need to just get our noses out of the book and look at the bigger picture--there is beauty and magnificence on this planet, social circles which need to either co-exist or ignore each other, and prophets whom foretell the future and face(d) prosecution for doing so.
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree to some extent. Christians-not all-do have a way of trying to control people-the way they think or believe. True love of god is just the opposite though. It is not god that misconstrued the whole conception of christianity. It is mankind who has done that. For example, During the Salem Witch trials, christians are the religion who claimed to kill the witches in gods name. They were men. Gods law does not say kill witches. his law says "thou shall not kill". They were men with a fear of something which caused them to kill for control for fear of being controlled by which they feared. Christians are not perfect. We all fall short of the glory of God. As far as" impeding on other cultures" as you say, it is imperative that we present christianity and the love of God to all nations. Give them a choice. Yes, it is wrong to demand them to believe and/or to give ultimatums or punishments for not believing. That is where it becomes controlling. But atleast to teach it as a theory or possible truth and let them choose if it is truth to them or not would atleast be giving them a choice. When you choose to with hold any information from people, you limit their choices. People cant make an educated decision on anything with out knowledge of its existence. As I said before, if you are in a church and it becomes controlling, then it is NOT of God. When you are presented with words of the bible, you base your decisions on if you belive it to be true or not. See...choices. Choices are good. Right? Perfect Religion? Who said it wasn't? Man? Either way, god created us to live in perfectness in paradise. There was no evil or sin...just free will. It was a woman and man who had freewill to do totally oposite of what they should've of. You know...the rights and wrongs we all grow up learning about in life. Well, it was mankind that used their freewill that God gave them and we as a human race were kept from paradise. we separated ourselves from Gods perfect religion. God made a way to close that gap between himself and us. Thats why he sent Jesus, so that through him we can be saved and have eternal life in heaven with him. Those who spread releigion using guns and fear tactics are not acting on the behalf of God Almighty. God is not the author of fear or confusion. Satan is. Anywhere there is fear or confusion, is Satans operation. But again, I agree that christians who use guns or fear, ultimatums or any mindcontrolling tchniques are wrong. God represents love we should represent it as well. We are not perfect, we dont always get it right, but to say because one group of christians is trying to mind control nations-all christians are like that, is not a fair assumption. I don't control anyone, nor do i try to controll anyone. I don't even have controll over my kids most of the time.(Teenagers. HAHA). I try to love even love people who i would rather just hit upside the head with something. But because i love humanity and most of all God-I can't act that way. It's a choice.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And you are always, always going to have conflict because you cannot keep your ridiculous beliefs to yourself. And you think "presenting Christianity" - which always ends in conflict is something you must do? Because god sed so? LOLOL
  
  Seriously - if I knocked on your door and tried to convince you to drop your belief system in favor of mine - would you say I was being respectful of your beliefs?
  
  If I sent missions from a foreign country to do this - would that be being respectful of your beliefs?
  
  If people from my belief system had been murdering and killing in the name of MY God for the last 2000 years - and when questioned I said - "Oh - that does not count - they were just falling short of what MY God wants," would you swallow that?
  
  Incredible.
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  i probably would choose not to believe it, but i wouldnt put you down for your belief. just like i'm not now. but thank you for trying to insult me. i feel blessed already. lol. i dont expect you to believe what i believe. i just entered this forum to STATE what i believe. i'm not enforcing anything. sorry if you feel like we are all alike. but we are not. but i do have a question.....if you hate god and christians so much, why are you in a christian forum? Is it to stir up contention? or are you searching for the truth of things that you can't find anywhere else? Sorry. but dont answer if you have to feel offended. I dont attack people with insults so i would appreciate it if you dont either. As far as keeping my beliefs to my self.. well, the constitution has this freedom of rights thing. we have freedom of religion, and freedom of speech...so i excersise both of them freely. I think if you have the right to curse god, then i, or we as christians have he right to praise god. it works both ways. have a nice week mark. i know i will.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes - I understand, You want to share your beliefs no matter who is insulted and how much conflict you cause. I get it. Sharing your ridiculous beliefs is far, far more important than living in harmony with other people. I understand.
  
  I did not curse god. Why are you saying lies about me?
  
  That is the problem with your religion - no moral standards.
  
  As for me going in the religion and beliefs section - I think your religion is evil and will say so. Free speech huh? I gather you are a fan of that.
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, we love our God, we respect Him and we fear Him for the right reasons; like you fear the law. If you are law abiding, you do not need to run away from law enforcement or hate the law; but if you are a law breaker, you will be afraid all the time thinking there are people in the shadows pursuing you. Why should we not talk about the love of God?
  
  Seeking peace with people and desiring to stop conflict will not work. People will fight you for sharing the good news just like you are doing. Accept it Mark, there are powers here greater than our own at work, no matter how we try, we are not going to get out of this world alive! The restorer has given us a way and it would be folly not to share what we believe. That we will not stop. Even when we are persecuted, we will not stop. If we face death, we will not stop. That is how strongly we are planted. We do not fear death, we do not fear people, we do not fear the systems of this world because our God is bigger than them all.
  
  What conflicts have you resolved by not talking about God? The USSR banned talk about God and just became more depraved. They brain washed people are God not being there, it did not work, they broke down and today, they are still rebuilding. Try it anywhere else. The lack of God in a culture barely ever makes it peaceful, I think just more evil and man centered. When people are at the center, evil creeps in and begins to breed rapidly. What you said is not right.
  
  Whoever speaks through you has made you his crusader and you do not even know it. I feel sorry for you Mark, but then there will be a crossroad somewhere in your future. Please remember my words.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Dear me. I speak for myself. You are the one shouting and causing conflict. Just listen to yourself. This is not love. This is hatred and fear.
  
  I never suggested banning anything - and I do not appreciate you lying about me by suggesting I did. I am just trying to help you see the conflict you cause by shouting your nonsense in this fashion.
  
  "That we will not stop. Even when we are persecuted, we will not stop. If we face death, we will not stop."
  
  I am not persecuting you or threatening death - I am attempting to have a reasonable discussion and you spout this fanatical garbage. One of your compatriots listed instructions that you seem to be choosing to ignore:
  
  "Agree with your adversary quickly, submitting even to wrong for the sake of peace" (Matt. 5:25; 1 Cor. 6:7)
  
  "Give no occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully" (1 Tim. 5:14).
  
  A lot of you seem to lie about loving the Lord and following His Commands in favor of fighting and sticking it to others.
  
  "Go abroad and tell others what they should do while ignoring the commands yourself. This will make you feel superior and allow you to deny your own failings." (Mark 1:1 )
  
  You have no morals. None.
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If I had the capacity to use the words you use Mark, you would have flagged my content a long time ago. As for debating and arguing with you about scripture, I already mentioned that you cannot quote scripture to me which means nothing to you. It will carry no weight because you do not have authority since you have denied its authority. Another Christian can quote a scripture to me and we can reach an understanding based on the truths of God's word.
  
  You are so frustrated you want to make everyone a liar. If you call me a liar because of truth, then so be it - the truth I tell makes me a liar to you.
  
  As for morals - I never learnt insults so they can never flow from me not even when I am very upset. Thank God.
  
  Adieu my brother. I will not stop shouting my faith from the mountain top, the world needs to hear. HEAR ALL EARTH, OUR GOD, JEHOVAH, WILL HAVE THE LAST SAY whether or not you like it!
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  By the way, the scripture quoted about agreeing with your adversary has got nothing with agreeing with people who scoff at God that they are right. God does not go against His word, if He says to speak the truth and tell the world about Him, He would not ask to agree with people that He does not exist for the sake of peace. That is not peace, it is foolishness. The Bible calls all godlessness foolishness. You see Mark, I am not a fool. God has given me wisdom to judge between what I should keep quiet about and what I cannot keep quiet about.
  
  God is holy, He is sovereign, He created you and me, He will judge this earth one day, we are here to share His truths and warn people - That we must and will do. Neither you nor your insults, intimidation and enemy induced perceptions will stop us. We will not stop fighting even for your soul, till that cross road appears. God must have the last word as He surely will!
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Do you love, worship and obey judges and policemen like you love your god? If not, then your example is meaningless.
  
  You just claimed that we should fear the law, yet you just stated your beliefs are beyond the systems of this world, in other words, you do not fear the law as your fear your god, hence you will have no problem breaking the laws of the land if your beliefs are at stake.
  
  That's called fanaticism of a cult member.
  
  That is a fabrication.
  
  Sorry, but your words are meaningless and empty threats of fear and ignorance and are meant only to promote hatred and division amongst others.
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hey 'Q', I thought I was done talking with you? I love you though.
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ceciliabeltranposted 13 years ago
Hay...buhay.
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luvpassionposted 13 years ago
goads?
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
I will add that the church has many things right. The God of Abraham does exist who or what ever he is.
I do believe that Jesus was and is the Messiaha spoken of throught out scripture.
The church just messed up the prophesy thing. And of course those things that was effected changing prophesy.

Even though religiousity is the beast, Those that go to church are not the beast. Many concepts or religion are good and some are not.
So I am not being judgmental in any way.
Interpretating scripture is not good and we do it without realizing. We just gotta learn to quit that part.
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
You must be reading a different bible to me. Mine says this.

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Full of love isn't it?
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  Rod Marsdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Earnest you make some good points.
  
  Mind you I don't care much for: You should not let a sorceress live.
  
  I prefer the original King James version which reads:
  
  "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
  
  It was to make King James happy. The original word in Greek would not translate as witch but poisoner but since the king reckoned witches were poisoners anyway it didn't matter.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well put.
  King James made quite a few changes to suit himself didn't he?
  Being careless with the truth to make things suit is a biblical tradition!
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  Rod Marsdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I can't say you are wrong Earnest. Martin Luther tried for honesty with his German version but he was still working with material that had been tampered with so he could only do so much.
  
  The King James version of the bible was all politics. It was the first version in English to be approved of by a reigning king and therefore the government. There had been other English versions but not being approved of by the government meant if you were caught with one you were in a lot of trouble.
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I know that is what was said. That was in the old testement. I'm not saying the old testement has no value. but i am saying that jesus came so that through him we can have LIFE and have it more abundantly. Through jesus death and ressurection in the new testement there came a new covenant. Our sins are covered by His blood if we accept him and repent. He died for the lost souls and those who chose to trust in him. He chose to die for us so we would have a way for forgiveness and eternal life with out sacrifice through burnt offerings. God does not judge by hatred in his heart. he cant hate or lie. If we dont accept him then he cant know us. to know someone is to build a relationship with that person. Right? So When we accept him, our lives are made new. God said in Jeremiah 29:11 "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope."
  God doesn't play favorites. He loves us all the same. What he'll do for me, he'll do for you if you let Him. But when it comes down to it, God judges righteously and with love, not with biased judgment filled with hate. Do you judge your loved ones with love or hate? I say leave the judgement to God and trust in his wisdom and mercy. After all, he must be merciful and loving...Murderers, liars, adulterers, child rapists, bigots, idoloters, and many other sinners like us are still alive and walking around. Maybe He's just waiting on us to come to him and accept him as our savior.
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My previous post was for ernest about kiling witches or sorcrers and everything else. but it does prove true as far as what it says. But Like Rod said . It was all politics then. allthough I don't believe everybit of it was politics. I do believe however, that when you get a man who is translating something spiritual and he has no belief in it whatsoever, things can be manipulated to suit the man and whatever he does believe. I just thank God for the references to the translations through the Hebrew and Greek languages. They are more convincing of the love of God than what king james himself wrote. Regardless of who wrote it or how he manipulated it, I still believe there is truth in it. and I never doubt the love of God for anything. In all this mess of world that man has created, with out the hope of the love of God, how much further in chaos would we be compared to now?
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  Rod Marsdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  As far as I know King James didn't put down word one when it came to the King James version of the bible. He did however have final approval and those putting it together did want to please him. One reason for this was that he was paying the bills. Another reason was that he was the King. King James did write a book on witches and witchcraft so any references in the King James version of the bible to how bad witches are or how they should be punished would be someone trying to score points with him which is, well, politics.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends
  
  May be it is called King James Version as it was done while he ruled.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Rod Marsdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes paarsurrey it was done while King James ruled but it was also the first official bible in English so it had to also get his approval.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Rod Marsden
  
  But the Catholics don't like it. Do they?
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Rod Marsdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The catholics and the Protestants were not getting along too well when the King James version of the bible was put together. The Catholics have their own version of the bible and there are quite a few other versions around.
  
  I can't honestly say what the Catholics think of the King James version of the bible. You would have to ask a Catholic. For all I know they might be okay with it.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Rod Marsden
  
  I have been writing on the Catholic discussion forum for quite sometime ; they won't except references from the Protestant version, King James included, unless it was from a Catholic Bible. They cannot except it as they think Protestants to be heretical and the vice a versa. I don't know which one of the versions has spirit in it; and the spirit of which has died over a period of time. JWs and Mormons have their own versions; and since each one of them claims to be the only true Christians on Earth; maybe the spirit has gone to their side, or simply it is dead.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Disappearingheadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Which sect of Islam do you belong to? Sheite, Sunni, Sufi? From what I see on the news in Afganistan and Iraq, you guys don't get along too well.
  
  Form a sentence from these words, "throw, glass houses, stones shouldn't."
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What Mr. Pot is trying to say is that looking into a mirror does not necessarily require one to see their own reflections.
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  from what i hear, catholics dont like anything unless it invovles gold. but that was an opinion of someone who doesnt believe in god. I dont know how catholics believe.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Where is the logic in this statement? Not knowing the veracity of a written document leaves room for GRAVE doubt. And...tell me how I can use this same logic in other areas of my life, other than religion?
  
  Since there is no hope of the love of god, you are experiencing that chaos now. But you can't accept that as the answer to your question, because you need to base your answers on the wisdom of filthy, ignorant Bronze-Age goat herders.
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Notice Earnest, that believers will acknowledge (sort of) that their gods scriptures are written before them, but will immediately forget about the nasty parts while in one fell swoop turn the tables back on you.
  
  Cherry picking the bible.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cherry picking has its points Q. If it means less violence and more good will maybe that isn't such a bad thing.
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It also means hypocrisy on a grand scale and the fact that it has already done more harm than good.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe. Maybe not. I can't balance the scales on that one. What I do know is that I would rather have Christians the way they are now than during the Crusades.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Celina Vanhoozer wrote:
Regardless of who wrote it or how he manipulated it, I still believe there is truth in it. and I never doubt the love of God for anything.

Jerami .... I agree with you .... The written word can be manipulated... A private relationship can't be.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Of course it can Jerami. Especially when it is with an invisible, imaginary undefinable.
  
  People manipulate themselves all the time.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  You agree with this? I think her staement is sheer madness. She has doubts about the author, and about the veracity of the bible, but still believes there is truth in it. OMG!
  
  How on earth can you discern what parts are true, and which have been manipulated? The odds are stacked, firmly, against you, but you don't seem to care much for logic, reason, intelligence, etc.
  
  You are simply agreeing to be naive and foolish.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Someone can write a book about you and do a very poor job of it. Does that mean that you never existed?
  
  As I have always said and continue to say; Ya gotta understand the prophesy in the book before ya can see which things make sense and what don't.
  But no one wants to do this.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, but this analogy is flawed, because, unlike your god, I can be detected by the senses. Furthermore, are you implying that just because someone wrote a book about your god that he exists, although the book is the only evidence?
  
  You can continue your assertions about understanding prophesy, but if you were to expand the parameters of your thinking, you would see that this, too, is not valid.
  
  ...because
  
  The authors of the bible did not merely write a book about your god, they CREATED your god, along with this false prophesy.
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Jerami. I am glad you said that statement about not doughting the love of god. I figured out who doesnt believe in this forum but i couldnt figure out who does. Glad to know you dont dought. I never dought the love of god.
  
  getitrite, of course i have doughts about the author(hello...mankind) but about the truth of the bible...nope. no doughts. The truth of god...no doughts there either. Everything the bible said would happen has either already happened or happening now. How can it be false prophecy when things that were prophesied are happening now. we are in the midst of everything the bible is telling us. go ahead and read it..I promise the WORD will not kill you. it might enlighten you.As far as evidence..people believe in the theory of evolution as presented by Darwin..no proof whatsoever...More proof has been submitted about the bible than there has been of Darwins theory of evolution. Also, a god doesnt exist just because a book is written. God exists in the hearts of those who choose to believe. But here is my anological take on this particular statement. first of all assuming you dont believe because you havent seen..neither have I. But I've never seen million dollars either, but I know it exists. I know you'll have something to say about some tangible evidence of somethings existence. But either way, the existence of money can't bring us hope if it is not in our individual life. just as much as God cant bring us hope if he is not in our individual life.
  
  Mark maybe jerami was refering to the spiritual individual relationship with god-that is the only relationship that cannot be manipulated. but relationships between two humans which include mindgames(a mans control of another-not gods control over you) can be manipulated.
  
  getitrite-humans are very good at creating things..no dought there either. but Your words stated previously that men back then were" filthy, ignorant, bronze-Aged goat herders." If these men were that filthy and ignorant, how can you say that they were educated enough to create a magnificent book of interconnecting relationships, prophecies, miracles, love, tragic, murder etc. and create a god that represents the love regardless of what mankind does? Is that just "sheer madness" when you think about how contradictive you are to your own words. No disrespect to you personnally. just trying to make a point.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
MK said People manipulate themselves all the time.
====================================================

Good to see that you are feeling well today.
And you are absolutely correct. We all manipulate our selves both mentally and physically.

I sometimes think that everyone on the earth is a bit delusional. Except for me of course. or is that just another delusion ? Oh well ... I choose to think not
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well - at least we agree on the fact that a personal relationship (which I do not believe you have) with the invisible super being is as easily manipulated as the written word.
  
  Yes - I am feeling well. Hoping I get to come take you up on your offer one of these days. I miss BBQ and live music from the USA
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Everyone has a personal relationship with whatever they think is real.
I sometimes think that this whole thing is nothing but a dream that someone else is having and "they" are going to wake up soon and all of this will be gone.
JUST KIDDING I think?

As far as the BBQ goes come on with it. But I warn ya, summertime with 95 - 100 degrees with 95% humity isn't so pleasent here in Texas. South Texas is a good place to visit in the winter.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Last time I was there it snowed - January.
  
  Don't agree with you on the "whatever they think is real" because that is just semantics. You do not have a personal relationship with a god. This is just semantics used by people who see how evil religion is but like to pretend they are not promoting it when they are.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
I have been spening way too much time on here and my house is about to fall down. I gotta go and fix something in my
honey-do-book. See ya later.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
I am not implying that JUST because someone wrote a book...
To say "Jesus died to pay for my sins and I'm going to heaven"... relys upon 50% prophesy and 50% hearsay that is written in the book. I don't think anyone believes just because of the book.

My intentions is to encourage believers to read the scriptures instead of "JUST taking the word of others" as to what is in them. I have no intentions of converting any non believers.
The reason that I focus on the prophesy is because the content of the bible is over 50% prophesy.
No one can understand what is written in any book by understanding half of it.
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getitriteposted 13 years ago
I thinks it's asinine to believe that God(the creator of all that's in existence) would reveal his will to man, a primate species, on an insignificant planet, who is as insignificant as maggots.

The concept of Prophesy is illogical. The future has not been revealed to anyone, no matter how much proof one professes to have.

However, wishful thinking is a true phenomenon.
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Do you think of yourself as no better than a maggot? That is so not true, you use words to justify what you are saying. In some places I even think you,'Q', Mark Knowles and Rod think you are better than God. It amazes me.
  
  You spend most of your time scoffing at Christians, criticizing, bullying and plain making fun of religious people (especially Christians) but you think you are better than God by pointing out all the horrible things He has done in History. There are things we call justice and things that should happen, I have no excuse for what people see as sadism in the Bible. If that be it, we of this generation and those before us are the worst. Talk about WWI, WWII, talk about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, talk about Vietnam, Rwanda, Burundi, Bosnia, I can fill books with names of nations and peoples where violence has reigned, not in the name of God. It is in the name of security and whatever else you would like to call it.
  
  There are wars we fight and they are all for a reason. I see no difference in the pattern of the Bible. Today, we are still killing and doing horrible things in other names. Who are you to think you are better than God?
  
  Earnesthub, I am tired of your favorite Bible scriptures. Read the whole Bible and get to know the God of love, do not be stuck in that rut! The Bible is beautiful and I have no apologies about it. Primitive societies were worse, thank God for, Yes GOD, for civilization, we have the freedom of speech and expression. But God will surely have the last say, no matter how long it lasts. And for you Mark Knowles, why should that be taken as a threat?
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  Rod Marsdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No one is saying they are better than God. The bible was put together by people and people are not perfect and are not God.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  
  God will have the last say? LOLOLO
  Not a threat? LOLOLO
  
  Dear me. And of course I am better that your god. I exist.
  
  LOL that you think you can speak for god and all you can do is attack others who do not believe the garbage you believe and threaten them with a judgment that your bible expressly tells you you are not qualified or authorized to offer.
  
  As an atheist, my morals are far, far superior to yours. I am not fettered with a belief in a non existent deity, therefore I am capable of determining what is and is not the moral thing to do. I do not think murder and wars are acceptable, yet you believe - "There are things we call justice and things that should happen" and condone war and murder based on this. Terrible lack of morals and this is the reason we have had so many so-called "necessary wars" - sheeple like you following a 2,000 year old book that you do not understand.
  
  I will continue to scoff at you. You are deluded into believing you are authorized to threaten and speak for a god and you deserve it.
  
  The bible is responsible for many of the ills of the world and I genuinely believe we would be better off if it had never been written. Even today - you are using it to cause conflict. Because you think you have authority to speak for god.
  
  Scoff, scoff, scoff.
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Scoff, scoff, scoff, Mark Knowles - that is war you are starting. Let us not even talk about morals. It is the empty tin that makes the loudest noise. You judge.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I certainly hear you banging the tin drum if that is what you mean. Who started this conversation? Again? You judge. That is what Christians do best is it not?
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Can you prove that when a maggot dies, its soul goes nowhere, while your "precious" soul goes to heaven? In fact, can you prove the maggot has no soul, while you have a soul that God loves and seeks?
  
  And, of course, I am better than your God. I couldn't stoop to the level of murder and mayhem. I shutter just to think that I could not be better than that.
  
  And your God is not omniscient. He's not even intelligent. If He were why would He keep making mistakes with humans---to the point of having to sacrifice His only begotten son to rectify his terrible blundering? YES! I am better than that.
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You just prove it here on hub pages with a love that is not prideful, intelligence that is progressive, humor that is gentle and words that are healing? I would not argue with you about that. My question to you was rhetorical, hey god, you could not tell the difference? You are not God. By the way, I am called Isabella, why do they call it a maggot? Different specie isn't it? Even my 6 year old daughter would be amazed at your level of thinking. But, if you have not read it, Read Psalm 14:1 and let the Bible tell you.
  
  So the Bible was written by man, who said they were its authors? Arguments like that are senseless to me because I have an understanding that only God gives and gentlemen, you need it. No matter how hard you fight, God's word will triumph. Do you think you are the first scoffers and non believers? They have always been there since the beginning of time. And they have not won any victories, they are born, live meaningless lives, die, are buried and forgotten even by their creator! But one day, they will rise up to damnation, because they chose it. Not because God condemned them to it. IT IS YOUR CHOICE. I HAVE MADE MINE.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, I have known many scoffers who have done quite well. Most have won victories and lived very full lives. of course the things they scoffed at, religion, false prophets, those pretending to speak for god, holier than thou types, were simply the right things to do.
  
  Pretty much shoots your theory right out of the saddle, huh! But you are probably the exception.LOL!
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And what is that glaring green snake symbol of yours? Hey bro, I rest my case because God WILL still have the last say. Rest in Peace.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The "glaring green symbol" is a smilie and means nothing important at all. It no more represents anything malicious than your head wrap means you are of the Muslim faith. Now you are getting desperate if you must try to use a smilie to disparage my opinions. Not surprising coming from a Christian though! Most of you guys pay no heed to the "judge not, lest.." scripture from your novel.
  
  Face it, you do not have the ability to decide what is right for anyone but yourself. But you are in good company here with others who insist only they know what is right. Sad!
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Do not tell me that green symbol is a smile? See, that is how things are being perverted. How on earth am I supposed to know that something which looks like a green mamba (and they are scary) is supposed to be a smile. In which world. Honestly tell me if that is even close to normal brother. As for my head band, go to Africa brother it is not a religious symbol, it is like you wearing a tie. Muslim women do not wear head bands. I am not a guy, just in case you think so.
  
  There are things we cannot judge, but, as Christians, we do have the authority to judge the world. You also do judge, just like you did with my headband. Does that upset me or do I think you are doing something wrong? No, every day we are judging actions - everything. Nothing wrong with judge. Perhaps it is better to be judged by fellow human beings here on earth before God himself judges you on that last and final day which is surely coming.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Pleased to meet you Isabella. I think I'll let King Solomon talk it over with you:
  
  Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 (New International Version)
  19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless.
  
  20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.
  
  21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth
  
  VERSE 3-21 is the one I need to have explained.
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It sure is warm and fuzzy that you believe my life is meaningless and that I'll end up being damned by your god. You love your god for doing this to me, too. That would clearly indicate that the hatred your god has for me is the same hatred you have for me. Like you said, it is your choice and you have made it.
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  h.a.borcichposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Your life is what you choose it to be. A criminal chooses to be in prison by choosing to break the laws. Even if they refuse to take responsibility for what they did - they did it. They could have make different choices and had better consequences for their actions, but they didn't. They choose meaningless living.
  Do I rejoice in their choice? Not hardly. Do I think we should abolish the law so they can run free and terrorize the rest of us? No. The law is the law and consequences exist.
  Simple concept yet so elusive for some I guess.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No - we understand Holly. But - your imaginary friend does not exist and I will not be damned. I wonder why you choose to ignore what the OP is saying? Read it again:
  
  I don't see how you can not see this statement as offensive. Yet you are now defending it? I would never be so disgustingly offensive as to suggest your life is meaningless because you do not believe the same as I do, yet believers have been doing this since the bible was written.
  
  How is this acceptable behavior to be defended? This sort of rhetoric always has and always will provoke conflict and hatred. And you feel the need to defend this?
  
  Why? I can only assume you agree with this, in which case - don't be surprised when you get a negative reaction.
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  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Seeing as He, has been around a heck of a long time, before you came to be, I suspect He will be around for a heck of a long time after you are gone. So, I feel V E R Y confident, that He WILL have the last say.
  
  So keep saying (& saying, & saying, & saying...) your piece, for it will surely end one day.
  
  Now I'm not laughing any more!
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Negative reaction from who? Since when did I get a positive reaction in the forums by talking about God? Your likes just flare up in anger and defense when we mention the Bible. Why? Because it is contrary to what you want to hear. Sorry, we cannot keep quiet and negate our responsibility as Christians just because there are those who will die saying No to God!
  
  Let us do it this way; You embark on a mission to win people to your ideology or belief system of atheism. Teach them, and offer them life solutions that will take them through this life. You do your thing, we will not interfere; we too will do our thing and leave us alone. Afterwards, we will have an opportunity to compare whose forums drew the most positive and productive responses!
  
  I do not see myself going into an atheist forum to trash their ideas unless they directly speak against what I believe and they do it in ignorance. Truth is, we all have the ability to defend ourselves and sometimes it can get really nasty if we let our guards down, but we have to remember as Christians that there is a time to say it as it is and there is a time when we know that we are not fighting mere human beings; flesh and blood. There is an army of evil that has been set loose in our earth and WE are NOT ignorant of 'his' devices.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  I am shocked that this mode of thinking has made it all the way to the twenty-first century.
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  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There are believers all over this planet who do hold exactly these views, and as we near the end times, more and more believers will be activated to stand against 'Satan's Whisperers' wherever they raise their unknowing heads and spout defamation against Christ.
  
  Nobody will be able to say they had not heard the truth, only that they chose to deny it.
  
  Stay Blessed,
  
  John
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  
  Fight! Fight! LOL Kill the Unbeliever!
  
  You do not have a truth John. Your Ego demands that you claim authority to speak for a god. No matter the conflict and ill will caused.
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  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Mark,
  
  Nobody, least of all Christ, is proclaiming that we need to kill the unbeliever, they are already spiritually dead in any case.
  
  If you spent a day with me, you may realise that ego is not something I feed, sure I transgress on occassion and ego can raise it's ugly head, but I stomp it down asap.
  
  Like my sister donnaisabella, i'll stand my ground when Christ is maligned, not that anybody needs to defend God, but we are called to preach the word IN season and OUT, i.e. no matter whether it's convenient and expedient or not.
  
  If my words cause you offense or ill will, or drive you to conflict, so be it, maybe one day Christ will change that.
  
  Anyhow, I like you so whats the problem, you are a feature and fixture here on the forums, and very useful in teaching new members how to deal with non belief.
  
  Stay Blessed...
  
  John
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOLO I have not "maligned Christ" John.
  
  Any comment I have made is directed at you personally - or your sister.
  
  You are the one I am speaking to. Please do not lie about me John. That is the type of behavior that proved to me your religion is war mongering hatred.
  
  I am speaking to you - not maligning Christ.
  
  Do you understand John?
  
  Be a man instead of bearing false witness against me. No moral standards - that is your problem - this is what your religion teaches. Rather than be honest - you prefer to lie and accuse me of doing something I did not do.
  
  What a terrible belief system that teaches you to do this. I will continue to speak against you for doing this John.
  
  You personally.
  
  You.
  
  Please do not lie about me again - thank you. You do realize that lying about me and then telling me to stay blessed rather negates the blessing? - in fact - it makes it seem offensive.
  
  Terrible lack of moral standards John. Terrible.
  
  I am prompted to write a hub explaining why religion actually prevents people from developing morals. As an atheist - my morals are automatically superior to yours - as can be seen with my honestly.
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  h.a.borcichposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  posted by Mark " As an atheist - my morals are automatically superior to yours"
  
  I wouldn't bet on that
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Really? Are you judging my morals as faulty then?
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  h.a.borcichposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  commets by Mark :
  "Any comment I have made is directed at you personally - or your sister. "
  "No moral standards - that is your problem - this is what your religion teaches. Rather than be honest - you prefer to lie and accuse me of doing something I did not do. "
  "What a terrible belief system that teaches you to do this. "
  "Terrible lack of moral standards John. Terrible."
  "As an atheist - my morals are automatically superior to yours - as can be seen with my honestly."
  
  Faulty? Most likely. Do you come off as judgemental? Oh yeah - so much that by Q's standards you could be construed as a christian!
  Funny how you are putting down a christian as being judgemental but can't see you are taking judgemental to a distinct personal level
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ah - so it bothers you that I judge people and claim better morals. Why is that?
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  h.a.borcichposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Bother me? No if you read the entire post you would have known that I find it hilarious on your part According to your own morals - you are a hypocrit! And nothing you say or do will change the fact that God will have the final say.
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  How can you be so sure of yourself? Morality does not lie. You should check your morals more often and see if they are still there.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So - changing my mind when I am invited back constitutes lying? Interesting. This merely backs up my conviction that your irrational belief impairs your ability to develop morals.
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, yes it does. You seem to have no concept of what lying is. You talk of morals like you have them, but yet you do not.
  
  I would like to know who invited you back. I also know that you never really left. You have a few sockpuppets running around these forums you know.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Many people invited me back. But - I see you are bearing false witness again. This is against my personal moral code. This is called hypocrisy.
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You can say whatever you like. It changes nothing. It all boils down to you lying or not.
  
  Liars tell lies. It is what they do. The truth is not in them.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So you judge me a liar then?
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  All men are liars. It is not I that judge you, but the One who knows you.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I see - but you feel comfortable calling me a liar in public? And I suppose - speaking on behalf of The One Who Knows?
  
  Yet you cannot grasp that this will cause ill will and conflict.
  
  No moral standards - none.
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Am I your enemy if I tell you the truth?
  
  It was started in public. Your statement was made in a public forum. Ill will was already there. I know you hate me. I only use this when you start calling others liars. I even told you before that I would stop if you stopped calling other liars.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So are you saying Mark cannot tell the truth about anything, or does he just lie about those things which you disagree with? Why does your god always choose those without logic to represent him?
  
  You would think he would want his message put forth by people who could make sense out of his word instead of only those with a self approved agenda of judging the world according to their own conception of truth. The self righteous, in other words!
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  In your opinion, who would you say God needs to spread His word? (just pretend he is real for a few minutes and answer)
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If Your God existed, I would expect him to choose someone who could explain all of the discrepancies and contradictions of the faith itself. Why should one wish to accept the word of one who fails so miserably in making sense of their own beliefs.
  
  You dislike and disbelieve those with their own ideas of reality. I have the same right, whether you like it or not! You condemn us non-believers because we do not think as you do. This has been the root cause of murder and wars for thousands of years and those such as yourself are responsible for these tragedies.
  
  Who has caused the most death and misery in the world, believers or non-believers?
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Contradictions that only you can see? They have all been explained but yet you do not believe it.
  
  The one you said fails, did not fail.
  
  I agree that you have the same rights. It makes no difference if I agree with you or not. God is always right.
  
  You condemn yourselves. The root cause of wars is evilness and wickedness. Men are evil. Accept it.
  
  See my above response. God did not cause any wars. Men caused them.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So I am the only person who sees contradictions in your novel? See how you speak for everyone with your replies. How can you know the minds of all? And if they have all been explained satisfactorily, then why are there still questions?
  
  God is always right in your opinion which carries no more weight than mine. Just because you say so means nothing to me. In fact less, if the truth be known. Your failures are a matter of opinion also.
  
  Yes, I'm sure the Crusades,the Salem Witch Trials, Jonestown, among many other religious fiascoes, would have still occurred without your holier than thou attitude shared by other past zealots like yourself.
  
  Your reasoning sucks! Why would anyone, especially an omnipotent being choose you to convince others of his will. This smacks of desperation from a helpless creator rather than a perfect deity.
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Where does it say God ordered the Crusades? Same question for the witch trials.
  
  It was men, not od who did these things.
  
  He sent His only begotten son. You don't believe Him. I am not called to convince anyone of anything. I am merely called to spread the gospel of Christ. It is your choice to believe or not. (I have stated this time and again over the last couple years I have been here.)
  
  Here is the kicker for ya. This thread is in religion, Christianity, Christian Living category. You come here knowing what will be written here and set in with the insults. You speak of how we are forcing it upon you.
  
  I wonder if I came to your house and ran off at the mouth like you do here, if you would extend to me the same courtesy you are shown here? You are allowed to voice your opinion no matter what it is, even though the thread does not pertain to you or your beliefs or nonbeliefs.
  
  Now I ask you this. What is your point in being here?
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  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  He's a Satan Whisperer Sir Dent...nothing more, nothing less... but that's his problem, not ours.
  
  John
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting you say that. WOW! Talk about not understanding your own religion. You're quite a piece of work.
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  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Cagsil....
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It was not a compliment. It simply goes to show how much you have learned in life.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry! I'll try to type a little louder to you guys! A "Satan whisperer?" So I suppose that makes you guys "God Yellers?" Yep, sounds about right! LOL!
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Who did the crusaders go to war for, Sir Dent? It wasn't God they were fighting for in their eyes? Who were they trying to kill? The infidels wasn't it? Those who had the audacity to disagree with the crusaders idea of whose God was real. Sound familiar?
  
  But these were just ignorant men, you may say, and God didn't make them kill in his name. Perhaps, but the crusaders thought they were doing something in God's name. Just like you.
  
  I didn't say you were forcing anything upon me. You have no power to do so in any case. Yes this is a Christian forum, as you so politely pointed out, and my not being a Christian should prevent me from posting here I suppose.
  
  But if you only allow those who agree with you on here, then you will make no new converts. And this is what you claim your god has called you to do, is that correct?
  
  Well, I suppose if you are so delusional as to think these forums are "your house" then you probably do think the most powerful entity in existence is depending on Sir Dent to get his message out.
  
  Study up though Sir! You're making god look bad! LOL!
  
  My point in being here? I am sure there were those who warned Jim Jones' followers not to trust him or his message. They gave an effort to try and prevent a tragedy. I am doing the same.
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "YAWN!!!"
  
  Same ole same ole.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Good answer, Dent! By the way, how did you get knighted? Having the "Sir" before your name is quite an accomplishment. Or is it merely a self awarded title similar to your self appointed role of God's spokesperson? A bit presumptuous of you, isn't it? But all part of your MO, apparently. Hoo!
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Still nothing new? Insults and more insults. Oh well, I suppose your parents would be very proud of the way they raised you. I have nothing more to say to you.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Another great answer Dent! As long as you can preach you are happy. But giving sensible answers is beyond your abilities. Good luck getting your message across to anyone with common sense.
  
  I guess the "Sir" thing struck a nerve, huh! You don't have another cheek? LOL!
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Gods are jealous and vindictive, that is a fact. Men caused wars in the name of their jealous gods. Without those gods, there would be no reason to cause those wars.
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  h.a.borcichposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I find it strange you are claiming it a "fact" that God is jealous and vindictive when you so adamantly argue God doesn't exist. What fact? You disbelieve the Bible, but perhaps you are cherry picking one verse "a fact" when it suits?
  You say there would be no war if there were no God. Are you sure about that? Certainly there have been wars between peoples that involve no religion. Maybe the Hatfields and McCoys feud was about religion after all? Seems men can come to blows debating if the Vikings or the Packers are a better team.
  If I was not a christian, can you say with certainty you would not find some other basis to justify dispising me?
  I think it is naive to think only religion causes wars.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Q stated "those wars." I assumed he meant those wars caused by religion. Not the only reason for war, just another horrible one.
  
  You obviously assumed something different than I. Only Q knows for sure.
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No one despises you, Holly. Why would you say that? I feel very sorry for you that you're a Christian.
  
  Religion has caused the vast majority of wars. Of course, I would never join a bowling club that had the same historical past of murderous atrocities as Christianity, more than the Nazis and Communists combined. Why would you?
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  PRECISELY, my dear sister. Our friends fight and curse a non existent being and accuse him of the most atrocious acts (as if he existed). They call us deluded, at least we are consistent because we do have a consistent WORD. Bless you.
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  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I would suggest that "those with a self approved agenda of judging the world according to their own conception of truth" is more aptly directed at atheists, who follow their own code, rather than believers, who follow what God states.
  
  John
  
  PS off to bed now....
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If God ever states this to us then you will have made your point. And you are going by your own "conception of truth" but you dislike others doing the same. A typical Christian response.
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  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "LOLO I have not "maligned Christ" John."
  
  Mark, every contemptuous reply you make asserting that God and Christ are an "Invisible super being that became its own son and killed itself?" (and the many variations you use) just shows your contempt and malignancy.
  
  I am not lying about you, and any member who read your posts would clearly see that you have made it your life ambition (though God knows why?) to attempt to discredit God at every opportunity, to no avail.
  
  Why do you waste your time and energy, I mean how many of your 13,000+ posts have focussed on decrying God!
  
  So please do write your hub about why religion actually prevents people from developing morals.
  
  That would be interesting for all us believers to read!
  
  "As an atheist - my morals are automatically superior to yours - as can be seen with my honestly."
  
  What a crock of s**t.... you make wild presumptions again.
  
  John
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  THAT is the only mode of thought that will make it to the very END!
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Is that the best you can do? Do not go so low. I will not find you there.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  These "nice" Christian people just left church. Isn't your God just wonderful?
  
  I can go lower if you prefer, because your religion has already indicted itself.
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  h.a.borcichposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Getitrite,
  
  Let me get this rite....Did you post to a black woman the photo of 2 black men apparently victims of the KKK? What is wrong with you? ugggh
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  You absolutely missed the point.
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You can go no lower than you already are. Your scoffing is a cry for help and only God can help you. By the way, there are things that just do not upset me. Like the insults and scoffing you guys do on here. Pictures like that mean nothing to me. Just give me exclusive pictures of the revolutionary acts of those lost souls who call themselves atheists whose very label is a constant cry for help. They think the whole world is out to get them and and quickly bite anyone who comes along the way who does not buy into their ideal. Show me your progressive photos.
  
  Well, and the conclusion still remains: God WILL have the last say my brother.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  I put the photo there to attempt to prove to you that your religion has promoted HATRED, INTOLERANCE, TORTURE, RACISM, VIOLENCE, MURDER, and just about everything evil under the sun.
  
  I question your loyalty to such a concept. If this is what God represents, then I have no choice but to oppose him and anybody who accept this, nonsense-as LOVE.
  
  If I must go to hell for my blasphemy, then so be it. I don't think I could bare one day of this heaven concept of, slavishly, worshipping a jealous, insecure, unfair, foolish, brutal, genocidal maniac.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wow - it really does upset you that other people do not follow your ridiculous, hate filled belief system and you will fight them.
  
  What happened to turning the other cheek? Oh - that is ri9ght - your sad pathetic god cannot speak for itself and you need to fight for it. LOLOL
  
  Sorry - I forgot YOU KNOW and are FIGHTING THIS EVIL. Me - I suppose.
  
  You just cannot see that this is what causes the evil can you?
  
  "Talking about god" and actively threatening his damnation are 2 different things."
  
  It is pretty obvious which one you are here to do.
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No Mark, you are too small for spiritual fight. After all you do not know it but you are an accessory of something much bigger than you. Even in your rebellion, you are still a slave to another power that uses you and you chose that power. Sorry, we only have two choices. Either God uses us and if He does not, the devil does!
  
  That probably sounds crude to you, but it is true. In the spirit, we choose who should use us. And you cannot judge me with regards to what I am saying as a Christian. You cannot use the scripture to correct me because you do not believe the scriptures. Nor can you use the word of God to right me because you do not follow it.
  
  I can use the word of God to correct you and if you think it is hypocritical, it is because you are in the same camp with the hypocrite. Our God is a God of love but He is also a God of wrath. If when growing up your father disciplined you, you know for sure that he loved you too. Love is not always saying good things, love is also being truthful so the ones we love can get better. God is like that. I should be like Him.
  
  We do not fight you Mark, you are too small. We fight the one who is behind all that you say and uses you as a pet. Sorry, you did not know that, but you chose him even without knowing.
  
  I actually do not care much if people call me a hypocrite because I am calling a spade a spade. There is time to love and time to put that love in action. This is the time.
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hey mark we christians will stand for our god. it's what we believe. what r u standing for? disbelief? How noble and honorable of you.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  As opposed to standing and fighting for an invisible deity? What a weak, pathetic god - he needs you to fight for Him? Dear me. And you genuinely think this is "noble and honorable"?
  
  Put me down as fighting for humanity instead - how is that?
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Unfortunately, your system has an invisible super being that will send everyone to hell if they don't obey him. That particular system is used by murderous despots and dictators to control people. It is a system of fear.
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That system you purport we have only exists in your mind. You could never win anyone to atheism which is but full of self praise, flawed supposed intellectuals, angry people, scheming and jealous. Atheism is itself a religion that is founded on rebellion, it requires much belief and will never be stable.
  
  I need not go into details, our religion is filled with love and good will just our Savior Jesus who went about doing good and healing all who were sick! Sin is a sickness and we need a cure. Christ is the cure. As long as we do not receive the cure, we will continue to kick against the goads. Religion has had its ignorant supporters and Christ called them hypocrites and set the record straight. 1.5 billion moslems and whatever number of atheists will never be able to outdo what Christ did. Why, because He was the God-man. Whether it sounds ridiculous and strange to you, the Bible says God has made foolishness the wisdom of this world. If you thing you are wise when you compare your thinking to the word of the Bible, know where you stand. And, the Bible forces no one to change camps. It only warns. So 'Q', you are warned. Your blood will never be on my hands, nor will that of the many hubbers you refuse what we say.
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  Solnyshkaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  donnaisabella, I'm with you sister! We have SO many people to add to our prayer list, eh? Do not ever waiver in your boldness to speak the TRUTH! We fully understand that God is on our side and INDEED He will have the last say!
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The system exists as a result of religious indoctrination, in which people are told to love and obey a jealous and vindictive master who will send to a lake of fire for an eternity. This is the master you love and adore. Clearly though, he is evil.
  
  The only difference between god and the murderous despot is the the murderous despot doesn't have the ability to send someone to a lake of fire.
  
  While I appreciate your interesting interpretation of atheism as some sort of evil cult, it fails miserably in light of reality and the acts of believers.
  
  I understand why you won't go into details, as it is the details of your religion that demonstrate how dangerous and lethal it is to mankind and our future as human beings. We can find example after example after example of how your religion is filled with hatred and evil, demonstrated time and again through that actions of it's followers.
  
  You already have provide another example of this with your misinterpretation of atheism.
  
  You may want to be careful when you bring the bible and the so-called 'word of god' into the discussion as there are so many quotes in the bible that most definitely demonstrate the hatred and evil your religion teaches.
  
  You see, once again your religion does nothing but promote hatred towards others.
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  'Q', it is amazing how a self confessed intellectual can fail to understand things so simple. It is totally and completely amazing that every word you receive is twisted and made to mean something else. I now understand the truth that those who constantly reject God and His word, have been blinded by the prince of this world. Seeing, yet they do not see, hearing yet they do not understand.
  
  Until you turn away from your rebellious ways 'Q', you and I cannot have a fruitful discussion regarding the word of God. The harder you make your heart, the harder God will let it be and that is a fearful place to be.
  
  You 'Q' need grace in abundance and it is available. As for me having a discussion with you is like trying to strike a conversation with a stone. Adieu.
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What's even more amazing is that I never said that, so you have placed those words in my mouth.
  
  Yes, I do understand that your religion teaches you to hate me and consider me Satanic simply because I don't share the beliefs of your religion, which by the way, teaches hatred. That is one of primary reasons to reject it. I could never worship and obey such an evil being as your god who has no problem sending people to an eternity of agony and pain. Pure evil, if such a thing could exist.
  
  There is no such thing as a "fruitful discussion" regarding the word of your god as the bible shows many quotes and verses depicting a jealous and vindictive god who teaches hatred towards others.
  
  I do understand you need to keep hating me as that is what your religion and your god teaches you to do with nonbelievers. I have no problem with that and do not blame you personally for hating me, it is just another result of your religious indoctrination.
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  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nobody hates you, feel sad for you maybe, but hate no definitely not, your words are inconsequential to any believer.
  
  Your displays of taunting serve Christ well to show believers how desperate Satan is in his quest to attempt to stifle the word of God.
  
  But (to go back on topic.....
  
  God WILL have the last word.
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Believers are taught to hate me. We could easily turn to your scriptures to find oodles of evidence in that regard.
  
  See? You just demonstrated your hatred of me. How much more proof do you need?
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  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Q you are so wrong, hate is the flip side of love, it needs a passion to exercise it, which I simply do not have for you.
  
  Perhaps my error here is that rather than hating or loving you, I am indifferent to you, that may be my error.
  
  You push your opinion that God is an illusion, which you need to retain or it raises too many questions concerning your self.
  
  I push my opinion, that God is central to all things, which I cannot deny as I have experienced and seen His centrality to all things.
  
  ....so we both keep on with the battle of words, me when I have some spare moments to see what lunacy is going down in the forum, you as a career it seems.
  
  Neither of us will 'win'
  
  God will have the last word.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not if there is a Mrs. God!
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  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Very true... but I don't think there is a Mrs God!
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What happened to knowing your god?
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh no, it is a fact that you hate me, your religion demands that you do so, you must obey your scriptures that teach you I am evil and destructive to you and your cult.
  
  No, you haven't. Your holy book has you indoctrinated. You've experienced nothing of the sort.
  
  Thanks for hating me, I appreciate your obedience to your god for doing so. Your cult will forever divide and conquer mankind and keep it's future bleak.
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  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Randy, you really should get out more, or consult a psychiatrist for some therapy, you seem to NEED me to hate you, when in fact I am indifferent to your rants and raves.
  
  Why would I hate you? you are insignificant and nothing more than a minor annoyance, a weak voice crying for attention.
  
  You have no grounds to tell me what I have experienced, and although I am sorry you have not had a like experience, it's no reason to try to tell me that I have not.
  
  You are simply deluded in your observations.
  
  Sorry, I really don't hate you.... and cannot find the enthusiasm to pretend to even if it would make you feel better.
  
  Get a life, preferably an eternal one.
  
  John
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Are you speaking to me or to Q, Aquasilver? If you are insinuating that Q and I are the same person, you are even more delusional than you appear.
  
  I assure you, this is my only account and I post under my real name, unlike you who claim to have a god of some sort who needs you to be his mouthpiece. If you are so secure in the knowledge your deity is using you, then why do you need to post under a pseudonym?
  
  What a brave believer! Scared to use your real name but claim god as an excuse. Bok, Bok, Bok, Bok-kop! Ashamed to use your real name? Of course you are! Scared? Why? Jesus will protect you. Don't you believe that? LOL! Just another pretend believer on the forums!
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It is not a system of fear. It is choices presented-good or bad with consequences that follow-good or bad. Is that not what you were taught while growing up?
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Holly, I'm rather shocked, but not surprised that you would equate the worshiping of a god to that of criminal activity. Since, you don't worship Allah, for example, does that mean you are choosing a meaningless life and have chosen to go to Islamic hell? Should we abolish Islam so you can terrorize the rest of us?
  
  Seriously Holly, did you even read your response?
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  h.a.borcichposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Of course I read my reply, and I stand by it.
  The point that eluded you was consequences of a choice. Ponder that a while - see what you come up with.
  The spiritual realm is similar to the physical realm - choices and consequences apply. My choice spiritually is christianity and I will bear the consequences of that choice whether allah likes it or not.
  Each of us will bear the consequences of our choice. Call it offensive, call it imaginary, whatever.
  BTW, Why are you so rattled about what my God will do when you are so sure He doesn't exist? Looks like you are unsure enough to get bent up over it. I do not believe in islam so allah does not bother me personally.
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I did ponder it, that's the reason why I responded. You have equated a choice of worshiping a god to that of making a choice to be a criminal. And, you stand by that?
  
  What you are essentially alluding to is the fact that I am no more than a criminal in your mind, simply because I don't worship your god, is that correct?
  
  If not, then we can make a clearer distinction in this choice by saying that I did not choose to be on the same bowling team as you instead? That would make your comparison far more relevant than that of a adding a criminal element, don't you think?
  
  You and I will both stand before Allah to bear the consequences, we shall both roast in Islamic hell together, if what you say is true about the spiritual realm. There is no denying it, Holly.
  
  Do you play chess?
  
  Ah, so you are an atheist, then. Notice how that is the common answer from most atheists about gods.
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  Solnyshkaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  A boisterous AMEN, donnaisabella!!! I, too, have made my solid choice to serve and proclaim the Name of Jesus Christ, unashamedly! He INDEED will have the last Word! And all on here who scoff, let them do it. It's okay, because on that day EVERY knee will BOW and EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus Christ IS LORD!!
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You'll be dead before you ever see it happen. as will most of those who presently live now.
  
  Because, it's never going to happen.
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  Solnyshkaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your response shows how little you know scripture. I might die before the return of the Lord, sure, but will be resurrected. In fact, we all will be resurrected, to face final judgment and everyone, collectively, will behold Him and WILL BOW. Some will be resurrected to be accepted into His kingdom while others will be resurrected to accept the punishment that they willfully chose by their disbelief. Every eye will witness this. But unlike you scoffers who poke fun of believers, we will not poke fun of you as you are cast into the destiny that you have chosen for yourselves....and in that destiny, Randy, a toaster will not be needed. But I do hope and pray that something in this life will prompt you to seek Him. I pray God tarries long enough for your eyes to be opened and your hearts softened, since it's not His desire (or mine) that anyone be without Him on that final day (though many will sadly be).
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh please, enough. You keep yapping about it as if you've been given insight. You base your faith on HOPE and nothing else. Give it a rest.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  On a second thought, if you actually walked the path of your religion, then we wouldn't even be having this conversation. So, ponder that thought.
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  Solnyshkaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cagsil, as it turns out, I am not "religious" and don't want to walk the path of mere "religion". There are many "religions" out there. I am not religious. Jesus even spoke against the "religious" Pharisees and taught clearly that it's about having a relationship with Him as our personal God that He desires. (But only a Christian will understand the difference between religion and a relationship with Christ, so you'll just have to scratch your head over that one.)
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you have any view on "god" then you are religious. The fact that you do not see the distinction is not of a surprise.
  The relationship you are talking about is with yourself and had you really understood Jesus' work, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. You are GOD in your own damn life. Do you NOT see that? The word "god" is a metaphor you have mistaken for something of substance, when the truth is Jesus always wanted a person to look deep within themselves and be true to themselves(the relationship you speak of) and doing that allows you to have love for other people. I would had thought that was the most important message written in Jesus' work.
  About 80% of Christians are sucked into religion because they do not realize or recognize the difference between understanding life and what it means, and the illusion/delusion of religious scripture.
  
  So, please, try and refrain from thinking only Christians can understand Jesus' work.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  You have no idea how delusional this sounds, do you? This is the rant of an individual who allows others to think for him.
  And no matter how foolish these thoughts are, you still choose to believe them, because you are too fearful to use your own logic.
  
  None of this foolishness is going to happen to non-believers, yet you go right on spouting this nonsense, with an air of absolute authority. It would be laughable if it wasn't so psychologically disturbing.
  
  Your fear of reality is shocking.
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No Cagsil, you are wrong, we will be resurrected to see that day. And oh what a wonderful and fearful day it will be!
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I hope you received a toaster or something!
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Idle and empty threats of an invisible and undetectable super being zombie are childish and immature at best, notable only on a kindergarten playground.
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Amen!
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  getitrite-i feel sorry for you if you think that yourself or mankind is nothing but maggots. in Psalms 8 David is asking God-
  What is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him? You made him a little lower than god and crowned him wiht glory and honor. you made him ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet; all flocks and herds, and beasts of the fields, the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas.
  he is questioning our worth as humans. But he has a relationship with god. He knows that even in his moment of doubts that god has ordained him and all of man to have dominion over all of his creations.
  
  I am sure that if we were maggots, we wouldn't have any control over anything. could you atleast agree with that logic?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This is a big part of why I despise your religion.
  
  Because this is the sort of thinking that pumps millions of barrels of crude oil into the Gulf of Mexico and no one gets held accountable.
  
  We are not special. We were not give dominion over. I am not special. I am no more important than a maggot. Probably less useful actually. I feel sorry for all of us that you think this way - because it is so against nature that we must destroy ourselves if we do not change this way of thinking.
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  actually...i did not destroy the gulf of mexico with oil. People who were working on it(or lack of work who knows) are the ones who messed that up. In my belief it is our worlds lack of belief in god and only belief in mankind that caused this to happen. Most people in this earth think their way is the best. So placed into action thinking because they put their hand on some big machine, they are automatically intellegent. well, thats where things messed up. A belief in god doesnt mess up anything except the minds of those that dont believe. but believe it or not mark..you are special and unconditionally loved. we all are wether some believe or not.
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Right ON!
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Nope! I never said we were maggots. I said we are as insignificant as maggots. And you have no proof that we are special in the eyes of a creator. It's strange, because I was indoctrinated just like you, but I can see this--in the end, religion is only wishful thinking. Bummer!
  
  Thanks for feeling sorry for me, but there is really no need, because I'm fine, but thanks anyway. I'll just consider it patronizing.
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not patronizing. I promise. but lets say what you believe is true. if it is wishful thinking...we havent really lost anything by believing in a wish. if wishes were dream then it would be a wonderful dream.Martin Luther King Jr. had a dream..it was a wonderful dream. Most of its come true, and the country is still slowly gradually improving on that. Either way, i believe in god for a hope and a destination. M.L.K. destination for his dream was that all people would b treated equal..no segregation,or racism. The segregation has been taken care of, but the racism is still somewhat an issue in all walks of life. not just the color of skin but religious beliefs, and or gender. To have this wishful thinking, dream, or religious belief or what ever people want to call it, is an awesome thing to have. It brings hope for us who choose to believe. I only wish that more people would have a hope in their life. That's mostly what i feel sorry about for so many poeple. The world is hopeless and that is sad. very sad.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But what if this wishful thinking causes you to worship the wrong god? What if the other religions are right? You will go to their hell, whatever it is.
  
  Perhaps your trying to tell others how great your beliefs are could cause them to make the wrong choice and result in them worshiping the wrong god.
  
  Making a bad choice for yourself is one thing, but influencing others to do so is another. Just saying.
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Cagsilposted 13 years ago
Hey Getitrite,

I guess the question is what do you believe? God or Creator? As your statement leads one to read that you believe in God or a Creator. That is why I asked.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  I gave the believers definition of God in my statement, for argument sake. It is by their own contradictions that the bible and all holy books and beliefs are absurds.
  
  As for me, I was raised by a Pentacostal minister. I gave my life to Christ at ten. A year or two later, I began to question why no prayers were ever answered, or why God was never, ever seen.
  
  Logically, now this is my position: there is no evidence to support the belief in a God or Creator. Gods are fairytales, nothing more.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
getitrite said ...
I gave the believers definition of God in my statement, for argument sake. It is by their own contradictions that the bible and all holy books and beliefs are absurds.
=================================
I can say that I absolutely agree with you on this point.

Now !!!!! What can we do to find a workable "compromise" ?
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Encourage people to find help. Religion is a serious delusion. It causes adults to behave as children, and think that it's perfectly acceptable.
  
  The fact that the title of this forum states: :God WILL have the last say" is a true testament to the silly, childish nature of this delusion.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Just a matter of prospective I think.
  
  Just got a ph. call... gotta go back later.
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kimberlyslyricsposted 13 years ago
Nope, I just did
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I"m always eager to help when I can ...
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SirDentposted 13 years ago
God already had the last say.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Just as a matter of interest Dent - what do you think you are achieving by posting threats such as this?
  
  Do you really not understand how this is guaranteed to cause ill will and conflict? Is that your goal?
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  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Furthermore, Jesus said, on the cross, "it is finished"!
  The rest is up to each of us ! (our response to Him, I mean)
  
  It is VERY evident what those responses are (here on HP.)
  
  I applaud ALL posters for their stating that SSSSOOOOO clearly.
  
  Therefore they "will be without excuse".
  
  I love it !
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes - that is th impression we get dj.
  
  You love the idea that "they will be without excuse." and LOL "you will win" LOLOLOLOLOLOL
  
  My way or the highway. Odd that you do not understand why this will always be the source of conflict.
  
  But - that seem to be what you all want. Conflict and division. What a terrible belief system. No wonder none of you have any moral standards and have caused so much violence.
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You seem to take things the wrong way, on purpose or not. It is not my way. It is God's way.
  
  The source of conflict is the wickedness of man. A man who attacks another man attacks because it is what is in his heart.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I see - so you do not think you are provoking? And you are not responsible - it is all god - therefore you are blame free?
  
  You are the source of conflict, but prefer to not see that. You are without moral standards. Still - that is the christian way - blame anyone but yourself and never ever take any personal responsibility. Terrible belief system. No wonder you cause so many wars.
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What does it meant to take responsibility?
  
  To realize that I have faults and confess them is taking responsibility.
  
  To say, "The devil made me do it!" is passing the buck.
  
  To say that God causes conflict is actually a true statement, but not true in the way you think it to be. The conflict is between the spirit and the flesh of a man. The fleshly man hates God but the spirit man wants God. They are constantly at war with one another.
  
  When the internal war in men come to the surface, conflict is then made outside of the man. The wickedness of man is what causes wars.
  
  Religion does not cause wars, men do.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Semantics avoid personal responsibility. No - confessing faults to an invisible super being in order to be forgiven for them is not accepting personal responsibility.
  
  But - nicely distracted from the point I made that you spouting scripture causes division and conflict.
  
  Very, very well done.
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think I see now. If I quote from the Bible I am inviting someone like you to attack me. It is then my fault that you get so angry you want to kill me.
  
  I get it now. Nice morals you have.
  
  Of course you could always ignore it when I quote scripture, but that would make yo ulook bad in front of your atheist buddies. It must be hard to live with such a dilemma and have no one to help you with it.
  
  Jesus loves you no matter what.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There you go - all my fault.
  
  You are not responsible in any way whatsoever. You were just telling me what god wants.
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  It seems someone needs to tell you because you can't see it for yourself.
  
  Luk 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No responsibility for you. None. Just telling me what the book says.
  
  You need to tell me - not that you accept any responsibility here. Any conflict is all my fault for not doing what you tell me your book says.
  
  All me.
  No Dent
  You are utterly blame free
  Any arguments are totally unprovoked
  
  Got it.
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  You are still blind. It is not your fault. I get it, I really do.
  
  The thing is this. If you would stop replying and responding to what I, (and others) say, the thread would probably die and be lost in the archive of HubPages.
  
  Of course it is hard to sling insults if a thread is lost.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't recall slinging any insults. But - surely you see what I am saying here? How can you totally reject any personal responsibility?
  
  It is all my fault for replying and responding?
  
  Deary me.......
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Just keep passing the buck. Your friends will get a good laugh at it.
  
  Edit
  
  I can't play any more for a while. I have things to take care of.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Just remember - this is totally one sided. All my fault for responding and replying. Nothing to do with you spouting the gospel. That is just god's word.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What of religious men? Doesn't God tell them the right thing to do? Or are they just reading his words wrong? If they cannot understand his "message" how can you?
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  I can only understand what God reveals to me. What I do not understand I leave alone. Many have overstepped their boundaries by preaching things when God tells them not to.
  
  In the end, I can only speak for myself. What others do or don't do is irrelevant.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And why should anyone believe your version of what God wants? What credentials do you possess which would make others have any confidence in your ideas of what the Bible means?
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  I possess no credentials of man. I have nothing to gain personally for spreading the gospel of Christ. I am not doing God any favors at all.
  
  So tell me, when was the last time you felt something burning in your heart that you could not seem to get away from?
  
  My ideas mean nothing. As I said before, I only say what is revealed to me. I understand very little but what I understand, I know to be fact.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You just think it is fact. You want to believe the words of common men and therefore, you do! It is those like you who like to moralize to others who caused so many conflicts over the centuries. Many deaths have resulted from your attitude of knowing what God wants. Take some responsibility for your actions. Yeah, you are just passing on your version of what God wants. The prophet Dent speaks for God. Whoop de do!
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  At least you gave me one compliment that many refuse. You told me I think.
  
  You gave me a title that is not befitting me. I am not a propohet nor amd I even a preacher.
  
  Like Mark, you blame the gospel for wars. Why does it not occur to you that men are evil and wicked and war is caused by this evilness?
  
  As I said before. I only speak what I understand. It is your choice to believe it or not.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Garbage. I do not such thing.
  
  I blame people like you spouting the gospel for the wars.
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I thought you smelled funny. You must be the garbage man. How do you like going around with all that stink on you all the time?
  
  Now it is time to get some real things done.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Something wrong with garbage men?
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Only those who never shower.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I do think men are evil and wicked. This includes those who dare to tell others what God wants. You are much more educated than those you claim wrote the Bible. But you still believe their words and continue the moralizing attitude which has caused so much strife in our world.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I was just watching a special on body image and advertising. And my husband (a marketing guy)started shaking our heads at all the moralistic naive statements of those interviewed in the documentary.
  
  The documentary showed the disapproval of many women over the skinny models and how it affects the children.
  
  The funny things is, we know for a fact from years of actual research that what people say is not exactly what they do.
  
  This phenomenon was found in another study in dating. They say one thing and do another.
  
  The truth is, you can moralize about the evils of biblical stories and how you can use your own mind, blahblahblah...
  
  but in the end those stories will remain. You can never kill those stories. They are a part of our psyche. They are myth and myth is deeply deeply rooted in our nature.
  
  So you can either celebrate it as myth and know it's myth with the equal power to lead you to your own sense of empowerment or use it in whatever way you feel brings you more at peace.
  
  But as in advertising. If you know that the picture is not real, it's retouched and acknowledge it as a representation of perfection and not an actual standard. (because even the model doesn't look like that)then the advertising becomes a work of art
  and a celebration of human creativity not an evil you want to depose.
  
  It's all about making yourself aware of the functions of things. The biblical stories are caricatures of heroes that you can emulate. G-d is a concept of human perfection for the goal of humanity to overcome itself and its limitations.
  
  In this way it becomes a positive force and not a negative one.
  
  Put it in the right place. And know your place apart from it, and within it. You can't topple myth, you can only change its face.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  I don't know which God you are referring to, but, the biblical God is NOT a concept of human perfection--unless perfection has a different meaning than in Webster's Dictionary, which defines it as: being entirely without fault or defect.
  
  The biblical God is, however, a concept of brutal inequity.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend getitrite
  
  The Christian concept of father killing the son is most cruel. I agree with you.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The Islamic concept of stoning to death women who have sexual relationships out of wedlock is most cruel, too.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The Father didn't kill the son. I thought you read it.
  And the concept of a religion hating and killing those of a different religion, is EVIL.
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  Solnyshkaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, are you kidding?? I wonder if you even hear yourself. We are not the ones poking fun, making blasphemous jokes and slamming people. Whatever happened in your life that has caused you to be so bitter, it's not God's fault. This chip you obviously have on your shoulder against God and His people only makes you bitter. Really, you think someone has no morals just because they are Christian? That's ridiculous! And it just doesn't fly. It sounds to me that you expect it to be YOUR way or the highway, since apparently anyone who disagrees with YOU must not have any morals.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I suppose calling someone a "Satan Whisperer" is not considered slamming! But it's okay if you guys do the name calling, I suppose!
  
  And your last line is a hoot coming from someone who chides us for not seeing things YOUR WAY! HAHAHA! Hypocrites to the end!
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  Solnyshkaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Randy, show me where I have called anyone a "Satan Whisperer", please. You can't because I have not done so. I have not called anyone any names. Mark is accusing every Christian on this hub for having no morals and calling us violent simply on the basis that we are Christian, which is nothing short of prejudice and ignorance. That's no different than seeing someone from the Middle East and automatically assuming they are a terrorist, no matter how peaceable and kind they might be.
  
  As aka-dj very clearly pointed out, it's not OUR way. We are merely quoting what is stated in the Bible. It's your choice and your right to not believe it. So, what's wrong with us also having the choice to embrace it? Hypocrites are those who preach one thing and then go do the opposite. I am not one of those. You know nothing about me or the journey I was on that led me to my beliefs, nor do I know whatever journey led you to your disbelief. But it's possible to be firm and passionate in our stances while staying respectful and civil. I wouldn't dare tell any of you, even in your disbelief, that you are all violent and have no morals whatsoever. It's just absurd.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, you didn't call me a Satan Whisperer. But your fellow religious posters call non believers names frequently. Like you, I had rather discuss things by asking and answering questions to try and understand the other persons viewpoints.
  
  Aquasilver and Dent get angry and call names when they have no answers for commonsense questions. I respond in a quasi serious manner because of this. Read Aquasilver's previous post to me and you will see what I mean.
  
  I suppose I am preordained by your god to be doomed simply because I trust my life to using common sense, study and especially logic to make important decisions about everything in this world.
  
  If I am wrong, then so be it, I cannot force myself to believe your god is so terrible as to allow such pain, suffering, murder, and greed when he already knows the outcome.
  
  "But you have a choice" some may say. But your god already knew my choice before he created the universe. The die is cast. Why go through the routine? Is your god really that bored?
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  Solnyshkaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Randy, your comment "I suppose I am preordained by your god to be doomed" raises a very controversial doctrine even among the church. This whole concept of "predestination" is one that I believe has been twisted, even among Christians. Some believe (but I do not) that God decided Heaven or hell for them before they were created. In my years of studying the Scripture (studying in the beginning to refute it, not to believe it, by the way) I actually found that to be the opposite. And when I studying it, I do not mean just casually reading it like most people do. (However, let me point out that I in NO WAY claim to be a scholar of it and still have very much to learn.) I have found very many accounts in which God held back wrath and gave mercy...look at what happened with Ninevah, for example. And Ephesians clearly says that we all were "predestined for adoption through Jesus Christ", which falls in line with how it's God absolute desire for all of us to know Him and to enter into His Kingdom in the end. Even Him sending His Son to die for even the most wretched scum KNOWING that most would not accept Him, but trying to demonstrate His love and forgiveness for everyone, equally, shows the very opposite of Him being "terrible", as you say He is. The problem is that people attribute the horrible things the devil does to bring calamity on God. Randy, no, I don't think even for a second that your die is cast, or anyone else's on here. If that were the case then why would God instruct us to pray for people? And why would I have seen literally hundreds of people who's lives were in utter shambles reach out to God and now live with a skip to their step, on the mend from a variety of strongholds? Heck, if our dies were cast then why even send His Son to die anyway? What would be the point? I get angered by any church, Christian, or anyone else who misrepresents what the Bible clearly says. It also angers me when people casually look at scripture, pick out whatever suits their own purpose, and then states their own view of it (whether Christian or not). When I dug into the Bible, it wasn't to believe it. But I was mature enough (and I'm not saying you aren't) to at least be objective in my studies and thankfully I was willing to let the chips fall where they may, instead of too proud to admit my doubts had been wrong. I am educated and I took it very seriously, and didn't just come to a casual conclusion about it. And you might not ever believe in it's truth, but you will never be able to refute how it changed me. I am incredibly thankful that I took the time and solemn effort to really search it out and stay open minded, which is why I very much take issue with someone's previous comment about me having closed eyes.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  OBJECTIVE~~ a : expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations. b: limited to choices of fixed alternatives and reducing subjective factors to a minimum.
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  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Calling someone a Satan Whisperer is simply explaining to my brothers and sisters what motivates you guys, you may be unaware of who your master is, but we are not.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  You are extremely offensive. We use deductive critical thinking to try to discern what is the truth, yet you are sure it is an imaginary being called Satan controlling our minds.
  
  This is madness, and an extreme contempt for intelligence.
  It is worthless to debate with you, because you are firmly in the grips of your delusion. MY GOD!
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Who is We and how does that We define critical thinking without equation injection? This I would like to 'hear'.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  As someone said in another thread, "I don't get it"
  
  You are either dazzling me with brilliance, or
  baffling me with bulls--t!
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  might help...
  
  http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/44335#post1025462
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  aquasilver-to win people to christ you should represtent with love as Jesus did. He made no judgements to sinners-his word was go and sin no more. He forgave us. People will believe what they will believe. we as christians cant enforce belief. all we can do is walk in love, tell people what we believe god has done for us, and let god take care of the rest. Even telling people "You'll go to hell if you don't believe" is wrong. Win them to Jesus and he'll reveal the rest. If you tell a non believer hes going to hell-why would he listen to anymore than that.
  
  everyone else i have replied to-i don't know if i have insulted anyone on a personal level. I apologize if I have. However, i don't apologize for believing in God. But for any potential personal remarks-i apologize.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No Aquasilver, Calling me a Satan Whisperer is just an act of childishness on your part. But is doesn't bother me to be called names by believers because this is all the power they have. There's absolutely nothing you can show to prove your god exists. Or Satan either, for that matter.
  
  So all you can do is quote the novel and predict dire consequences for those who dare to think different from you. Go practice your self hypnosis, it's almost Sunday!
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  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Randy, I'm not calling you names, I'm identifying your behavior, Satan is the accuser of the brethren, so you fit that bill, and you whisper constantly his accusations.
  
  That's fine by me, I understand the spiritual battle that is taking place, but some hubbers are ignorant of the fact, and could be misled by Satans whispers, so i on occasion point out the fact as a warning to believers not to forget that our enemy is not flesh and blood, but principalities and powers in high places.
  
  You are not the enemy, misled perhaps, but not an enemy, it's the spiritual forces that guide your thoughts and words that are our enemies, yours and mine and all of us.
  
  John
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  this I totally agree with. very well stated.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Is this the best answer you can give me to my last post? Or do you choose to just use the "John" instead?
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  Milla Mahnoposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL Doncha realize you are looking in the mirror?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No - I am not kidding. And I suspect you do not even realize what you have just called me. LOL that you think I am speaking to god hen I am speaking to you.
  
  I am speaking to you. God does not exist. Love how you turn that into me being bitter and having a chip on my shoulder against god. His people? Different matter if you are claiming to be speaking for Him. Yes - look at your behavior - attacking me for not agreeing with you.
  
  You have no morals. Look at this fight you are causing. Why?
  
  Mirror mirror on the wall. Who started the fight?
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  Solnyshkaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Prejudice is such a crippling disease. Everyone on this hub can clearly read and see that I have not called you any names. Pointing out your bitterness is not name-calling, it's making an observation....and an obvious one, at that. Do you realize that you are the only one on here among nonbelievers who has resorted to making a blanket statement to literally every Christian here that they are without any morals, simply for being Christian? Do you treat only Christians this way, or everyone? Nevertheless, God loves you, Mark, despite your obvious hatred of Him and those who love Him. I'll still be praying for you, and appreciate you showing me how to pray for you more specifically. Peace to you!
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  Solnyshkaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, and Mark, the "fight" was started by the serpent in the Garden of Eden, not me, not God, and not Christians. Go back and read about it. And this "fight" that you are so determined to keep calling this hub to be also wasn't started by me. As I recall, you commented on this hub days before I ever knew it existed. The whole point it that is doesn't have to be and shouldn't be a "fight" at all. It can be an intellectual debate, with reason, maturity and respect. Can you handle that?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nonsense - the fight started with you and people like you. You are continuing it with a will.
  
  You have no moral compass - that is your problem. And now you demand respect after threatening me with Jesus?
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  Solnyshkaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Threatening"???? Oh my goodness.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes - threatening. No morals at all. None.
  
  Edit - So I have a genuine question.
  
  Seeing as this is what you think - how do you expect to have "an intellectual debate, with reason, maturity and respect?"
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  Solnyshkaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have had civil, intellectual, mature conversations and debates with very many atheists, agnostics, and members of other religious groups. It is very much possible among those who are willing, as you continue to show yourself to not be. But Mark, you act like you WANT to just throw scum at us, as if its nothing but amusement for you. Why is it that you think you have the right to have your opinion and to speak your mind yet we don't? I have not ONCE told YOU that you have no morals. It's just ridiculous to say such a thing to anyone, regardless of their beliefs. I fully know and understand that every person on this planet, including you Mark, is capable of doing good things in their life. No matter a person's religion or lack of one, still, anyone can strive to be good citizens in society. A person doesn't have to believe in my God for me to see value in them, so why do you act as if a person who does believe in God has none whatsoever?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I see - and how is this "civil, intellectual, mature"?
  
  Oddly enough - this just proves my point. I see no room for discussion here. You have no morals. None.
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  h.a.borcichposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Solnyshka,
  The type of debate you and I believe is possible generally does not happen on the religious forums. I once thought we could share points of view, maintain a differing position, and still have civility when done.
  As long as you maintain you are a christian the above type response will be mostly what you get. Even properly placed threads get reduced to fodder. Read older threads and it will become clear.
  God Bless, Holly
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes = let's just ignore this shall we?
  
  Never happened.
  
  All me.
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  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  serpent added spice in otherwise boring life is what i read in satire article few days back..
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God does not exist. I am not speaking to this invisible person. I am speaking to you. I don't care if you pray for me. As long as that makes you feel better that is fine with me.
  
  Negating everything I say by telling me I hate something that does not exist is not really soothing the rift though. See how that works?
  
  You have no morals. None.
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  Solnyshkaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, let me ask you something.
  
  Suppose a person is charitable to others, regularly volunteers in clinics and with the homeless, regularly helps finance care for orphans, doesn't use foul language, lets other people go in front of them in lines, has never cheated and maintained purity before marriage, doesn't get drunk or disorderly, readily helps those who ask as much as possible, is punctual and dependable, keeps their word, and when they do make mistakes they are not too proud to admit it and seeks to make it right, etc. Would you recognize any moral fiber in such a person?
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  Solnyshkaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Holly, yes, I clearly see how it is here. Such a shame, indeed. When people show themselves to be so deeply prejudice then nothing we say matters, and possibly never will. But, their choice, therefore it will be their consequence later. At some point we just have to realize that we're casting pearls before swine.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes - hard to see how this could be rejected. IT is so reasonable and debatable after all. Pearls before swine indeed. How noble and perfect of you.
  
  You have no morals. None.
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  Solnyshkaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You are incredibly predictable. Do you have bumper sticker on your car that says "You have no morals. None." so that when you run a Christian over in your car you can point to it? Obviously, these words are nothing more than a joke to you, like a childhood bully who stole someone's PB&J and saying "na na na na boo boo". Fortunately for you, Jesus died for bullies, too, but really, get some new material.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No morals. None.
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aka-djposted 13 years ago
@ Mark
I agree with SD. It's NOT my way or his way.
It's His way!
Besides, if you just did it His way, there would be less conflict! We wouldn't be disagreeing with you so much (and vice-versa).

BTW I have NEVER caused violence in my life. (Just for the record!)
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL _ See above. If I just did it the way you tell me? LOLOLOLO
  
  This is the truth here dj and Dent.
  
  It is not your way - it is God's way.
  You are just the messenger
  You accept no personal responsibility
  Any conflict comes from me not doing what you tell me is god's way
  Therefore any conflict is my fault
  
  Really - a terrible belief system that produces people who never accept responsibility for their own actions.
  
  And then - of course - you blame the "liberals" lefties" "atheists" or whatever for the down fall of society.
  
  Terrible. You have no moral standards.
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  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How did I tell you to do anything?
  
  You obviously need help. You're having trouble figuring it out.
  It seems you got it wrong the last time you tried, now your mad at the whole world(of believers).
  
  I guess you'll be one of the happiest people on earth after the rapture. LOLOLOL
  Woo-Hoo!! Yippee, NO MORE (Religionists) believers.
  
  Please accept my humble apology for the sarcastic form of humor
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I need help? Oh - of course yes - I see - any conflict is absolutely my fault and not yours.
  
  OK - yes - we just went over that.
  
  You tell me god's word
  It is god's word not yours
  Any conflict comes from me not doing what you tell me is god's word
  Therefore any conflict caused is absolutely my fault
  
  Got it. My fault. You didn't tell me anything - you just told me what god said. Right. OK Oh - and I am angry because I disagree with you (sorry - god, because it is god's word - not yours). You aren't angry - you are merely passing on the message and are not responsible for anything. Ever.
  
  No moral standards. None. Shame.
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  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think you have a scratch in your record!
  
  It keeps skipping back to the "same-ol, same-ol"!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes - I imagined you would not be able to understand. Just remember - it is all my fault for not accepting god's word that you tell me. You are not responsible.
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  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You already acknowledged that I follow a 2000 year old book. (BTW, you are wrong on that tecnicality, but no matter). SSSOOO, it's not I that tell you, it's THE BOOK! (Sorry it got a bit deep for a moment).
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes - I know - you are not responsible. It is all THE BOOK. You are just the messenger. I get it.
  
  Yes - no responsibility for you. I understand.
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  It is your fault that you reject the Word that God told you.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes - I know. It is all my fault and you are in no way responsible. Yes - I understand. You are just telling me what the book says and any conflicts are mine.
  
  I get it.
  
  You are not responsible for any conflicts caused. It is all my fault.
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  see christians-i am a christian. i love god. but can u not see the point behind the non believers. they choose not to believe because there are so many christians that tell them... its all your fault...if you do it this way there will be no conflict...or judgements like...you have a scratch in your record. how can we say that we are representing christ with remarks like that. I have to say.. God does represent love, but we as christians have totally failed. it is our fault people choose not to believe. It is our fault non believers have negative feelings toward christianity. we have become too complacent in doing what Gods word tells us to do (no matter how crazy non believers thinks that sounds) we fail to live our lives as an example of what Jesus life was. Therefore, because we push our beliefs instead of present them as our beliefs as a personal choice instead of demanding nonbelievers to believe, then persecute them if they don't. this is why it is our fault totally that people are dying without a hope, a love, and god. It IS our fault. not theirs.
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I also have realized though that nonbelievers are also making judgements. i guess my question is how can you make a judgement against something you don't belive in. if you dnont believe in it then it doesnt exist to even be judged. but either way...we are christians. It is our resposnsibility as a christian to walk in that light and not speak insults or judgements to anyone regardless of what they say. to walk in true love is to not be offended.we dont have to be offended by nonbelievers and recipricate offenceive behaviors. and same with non believers... you don't be offended by things christians say. This just creates a never ending circle of hate. Also, some christians truly try to be good nonhypocritical christians. But some say they are christians and are not. That sets a bad example for us all. So i guess my suggestion would be to check ourselves before we cast the first stone. And just take it for what its worth. Those that choose to believe know what its worth, and those who dont believe, well, i guess its not of any worth...unless they become believers. Only time will tell.
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My dear SirDent, if the Bible, or any other holy book were left entirely on their own and no one read them, there would be no reason for fault of anyone.
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If every bible in the world was destroyed, God's Word will be there speaking to you.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Mere speculation, nothing more! If this were true there would be no need for missionaries and the whole world would be worshiping the same God.
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  You mean the missionaries who help to feed villages and such?
  
  Do you mean those who help people to become self sufficient by teaching them how to garden?
  
  Maybe you mean those who help the sick with medical supplies?
  
  Or do you just mean the fact that they spread the gospel of Christ as they help with these other things?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And the missionaries and priests who accompanied the Spaniards to the Americas and baptized them before sending them into a short life of hard labor. Or stood by while elderly natives were being fed to the dogs for some small slight against theirs and your God.
  
  Or in the case of Hawaii, missionaries who brought the diseases themselves which wiped out many of the natives. They then destroyed centuries of sacred objects and other religious icons of the people along with much of the Hawaiian Island history.
  
  Yeah, some real nice guys your god has working in his name.
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You, and every other theist, got your religion from a book, not from an imaginary god, SirDent. You know it and I know it.
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Amen!
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  It is because your delusion causes an argument to become circular. It is believers who are causing the circular argument, but you don't have the capacity to see it. Psychology is fascinating.
  
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  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This argument or debate is going both directions. not just one direction.
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Celina my dear sister. I do agree with you that we are called to love not hate. Encourage not berate. We are called to be champions of good not evil just like our Lord Jesus Christ.
  
  However, Proverbs 18:15 The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out.
  
  We have to be discerning in the way we deal with all kinds of spirits. While here in the forums speaking about the love of God and sharing our faith, we are reaching out to the hearts and seeking the souls of many. It is not necessarily the man of woman you see writing on here who stands to lose or win. The spirit of the enemy is present full force and to tell you the truth 'he' will deceive even the most elect and use the rhetoric that you are using to side with what you think you have seen or heard on hear.
  
  When Paul in Ephesians says Put on the full armor, he also admonishes us to understand who the real enemy is, not the flesh and blood standing before me. When Jesus rebuked Peter, He said,MT 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
  
  That would be considered brutish and judgmental. But, we know that God did not mean that Peter was Satan. Aquasilver may have used some strong words to emphasize his sentiments. If you read what he had been saying before you would realize that he was trying to tell 'Q', that we do not hate him in several different ways. And that is what is true. Eventually we all learn that there are different ways of handling different situations, but love does not always mean that we do not tell people the truth. It is true, the Bible says that all workers of evil are doomed to an eternal hell and that includes you and me if we were not abiding in the faith.
  
  God has not used any soft words so he could win people to Himself. He teaches that the wise see trouble coming and they avoid it but the foolish go on and face the consequences. We need to be truthful. Hell is real. When we minister, we share God's love and desire to keep people from damnation. If they are not told, how will they know there is such a thing as a hell.
  
  Believe me, people have different temperaments, some need to know that they will be punished and that is enough to help them get on the right path. Others are not fearful, threats of hell will just make them more stubborn (but that does not take away hell), when we minister to these, they need information, they need to understand that what we are saying is credible, the need to be convinced in other ways. That is the role of the Holy Spirit who knows how to reach out to people. To avoid talking about hell, judging between right and wrong is to preach a half baked gospel. It will not please God. The Bible did not say that is how we are to preach.
  
  We have to be wise and discerning. There are beautiful Christians in this forum who truly love God. But, they are all human beings. We should all let God use us as vessels, it is not by might or by power but by the spirit of the Lord. If your brother or sister needs correcting, say it to 'them'. Let us not have our faith and the gospel we preach be watered down by what the enemy demands. The devil has no right to demand anything - we should know that we are at war.
  
  BY the way I realize you just joined hub pages 2 weeks ago. Welcome! Check out my other forums and familiarize yourself with what has been happening on here, pray and let God guide you as you go. Do not take anything on here by sight value.....it is deeper. I love you.
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you. This was very honest of you. You pointed out a couple things that i wasnt thinking about. And yes, the whole gospel does need to be taught, not watered down. I dont like feeling like i am judgemental really but to let gods word be the judge is the best. so if i can back it up with the word of god and truth, then thats what god requires right? and thats what needs to be done. I believe we shoud tell people about heaven AND hell. like you said. Jesus did say that his people parish for lack of kjnowledge. But what i was referring to was the Hell Fire and Damnation part that usually either causes fear about the whole spiritual thing or hatred and resentment towards christians. I believe the expressions of Gods love can open the door to so many people's lives. they will want to know what it is that makes us happy, full of light, and so on. That will in turn present the opportunity to teach them about heaven and hell, the love of god and everytng else god has to offer. but thank you so much for bringing that to my attention. hope to talk with ya soon luv ya too sister. god bless you.
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, just Christianity. When you are the object of hatred and resentment by the Christians themselves, there is a tendency to resent the resentment. Your god wants to send us to an eternal damnation simply because we don't worship and adore him. And, Christians love and adore the same god who will send us there.
  
  No, we don't want to hear about your heaven and hell. Your god is evil for the acts he commits against us. Christianity is therefore quite dangerous for humanity.
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  i am sorry you believe this. i will pray for you. but we separated ourselves from god through sin. the wages of sin is death. it is not sin that sends us to hell, it is rejecting god. God created us to live forever in a paradise with him. It's up to us to believe it and accept eternal life with God. His will is not for us to die but to have life and have it more abundantly. Jeremiah 29:11-14 says: For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will bring back from your captivity.
  He loves you Q. wether you choose to believe it or not. I love you too. So i will pray that your heart is softened to the love of God and that you can and will experience his eternal love. I dont judge you for your belief so dont think thats what it is. I just know that we obviously dont know the same god. thats all.
  oh since christians are being judged as a whole.. i wanted to let you know that there are alot of misguided and decieved christians out there that make the rest of us look bad. but thats just the way of the world. the do have something to believe in tho. but judgements christians make are not righted just because a sinner makes a judgement against them. we as christians are to set an example and be christ-like. but we mess up alot. humanity messes up. none of us are perfect. but no matter if you choose to believe or not i will pray for u Q. I pray god blesses you with a love that you may have never felt before in your life. God Bless
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aka-djposted 13 years ago
The prosecution rests??
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ceciliabeltranposted 13 years ago
Many of those who do not believe in G-d, are drawn to a belief in Aliens. But G-d and Aliens have about the same level of plausibility. There are signs that the concept exists but no proof.

Some are now saying Jesus is an alien. This is myth transitioning from the "strange islands" of gods and goddesses to "strange planets" because we have debunked the idea that there are fantasy islands on earth where the laws of physics do not apply.

I've seen UFOs but also know that the only reason they are UFOs is because I have no idea what that flashing zipping cigar shaped thing is. So it could be a Burning George Bush project. I've seen so many accounts on paper and videos that my conclusion is this: darn it IT COULD BE ANYTHING.

Like Biblical Stories, alien stories have the same weight and level of absurdity. It seems our myths are pushing us to aspire to discover the plausibility of living outside our planet. That's where human consciousness is headed, transcending our dependence on earth. On the one hand, there are also myths that urge us to return to it.
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not really. It is the lack of critical thinking skills that haven't developed or were possibly crushed to a pulp in the mind of the believer, hence it is the believers who are drawn to belief in visiting aliens, not the other way round.
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ceciliabeltranposted 13 years ago
you cannot topple myth, you can only change its face. goodluck guys. chase those rainbows... or know what they are.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The myths themselves are no problem. The problem lies with those who believe them and use them to control others. These people are the ones I wish to topple.
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And how many have you toppled so far? Greek mythology is called mythology. Christianity is not. Hey, you are taking a task too big for you....it is like declaring a war against God Himself. Whether or not you believe He exists, you will one day join the many that have died trying (if Christ does not return any time soon) to do so. Thousands of years and they are yet to triumph, they always end up being toppled no matter how mighty they become! People, believe ME, God WILL have the last say.
  
  On that last and final day, do not say, I did not warn you. I have and so have many others. In any case, I do not think all those who confess to be atheists on here will die atheists, I know that a number of them will meet Christ at some Cross Road, whether they think so now or not. That comforts me and that is why, we do not just talk to you, WE pray for you too! Now, you can not stop me praying. I do it and I do not need your permission either!
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  Solnyshkaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  donnaisabella, you rock, sister!! :-) I join you in praying in the Spirit over these unbelievers. God loves them all and wants their eyes opened. I pray it will be so!
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tiger_lyndonposted 13 years ago
millions of LOLs from people who do not understand the language of the bible...But we must not be
surprised to find people like
them who do not only doubt
but, are denying the truth
written in the Holy Book.
Even the knowledge and understanding
of the mysteries in the Bible is not
attainable by human efforts but, is given
by God.
Because no human intelligence can
fathom the deep things of God, there are
those like these people that pervert or
wrestle the word of God.
No wonder, people like them are trying
all possible nonsense to malign the Bible
and its source: God Almighty.
The Bible is a sealed book; and can only
be understood by divine intervention.
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Gosh, good thing there aren't any humans trying to tell us how the word of their god is the ultimate truth, especially when human intelligence cannot fathom the word of their god.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
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Eaglekiwiposted 13 years ago
I believe God has the first and last say ...but there seems to be an awful of people who think they are God...
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watchyaposted 13 years ago
God always has the last word. the writers of the Bible took care of that . LOL
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h.a.borcichposted 13 years ago
Q,
Somethings never change - you will twist words and run circles. Slow down and think.

Simple concept = Choices (of any kind) bring consequences.

Whatever reference I would have made you would have done the same thing. We all know it. Yes I do think, and yes the bowling team would have been a better choice - can you forgive my chemo brain or would you like to chew on that a while?
I do not believe in allah - can't you read? I am not an athiest either. I stated I am a christian.
Believe what you want - I am just fine with my beliefs.
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  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, you too have made a choice that you're "just fine" with and could care less about Allah putting you in Islamic hell to roast for an eternity. That is, if Christianity is wrong and Islam is right. Of course, there are at least 1.5 billion people who agree with me that Allah will send you to Islamic hell.
  
  I'm glad you're fine with that, Holly.
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Enlydia Listenerposted 13 years ago
Hi you all...I don't have the time or patience to read all the arguments...but just wanted to mention a theory (scientific)that I read yesterday about the universe...it is called the Alpha and Omega theory....supposedly the universe is expanding outward...and when it expands as far as it supposed to (?) it will go to Zero...which is not the absence of everything...but the containment of EVERYTHING....seems like even the scientists can't quite avoid God....(at least in using the terms Alpha and Omega)
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Awesome!! I like that statement...The containment of everything. i went online and read something about this theory. Just to think of how big the universe and all that god created actually is, its awesomely huge! To think that we cant even measure the distance or depth of the universe. It is infinately unimaginable. Enlydia, would it be right to say that Gods existence IS the containment of everything?
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Cagsilposted 13 years ago
Having fun yet Randy?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Dealing with "God Yellers" is always fun, Cags. Their mindset is hilarious. A few hundred years ago they would have burned us at the stake because of our disbelief in their imaginary deity.
  
  Scary folk!
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I find it funny. I have no belief on the matter either way. To me, what it is is something know. No non-belief or disbelief. The topic isn't of grave importance to assign a belief to it.
  
  The delusion created is however my belief says it's lunacy and completely foolish.
  
  I know for a fact- religion is killing people, it is the underlying cause for much that ails the world. It can be seen in the actions of those who choose to claim themselves righteous.
  
  I also know for a fact- the 'god' concept is in the minds of some 4 billion people. Thus, making the situation more dangerous.
  
  Just those facts alone, are enough to scare someone into action, before the civilization does something really stupid, like launch a nuclear weapon somewhere.
  
  I am glad to see you are enjoying yourself. That's good.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I feel the same Cags! Religion is the same as politics in some ways. It is also a political tool used to sway opinion on a wide variety of matters.
  
  Faux News uses it to aid its conservative agenda and it works quite well on those without the means to make up their own minds. Nothing new, of course!
  
  I really would not care if people worshiped and old shoe as long as they didn't expect me or others to do the same. But they need assurance they are not wasting their time, so they want others to have the same delusions or to look up to them for their power to speak for a god! This is often because of a lack of self esteem! But you knew this already!
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh Randy, you will not escape the final stake if you God does not open your heart to receive him because of your hardness of heart! This stake will be worse than the one that could end. That is another subject altogether. But you will not escape your reward for the 'good' words you are spewing here. Though, God is not vindictive He will forget all this the day you come to Him and say 'Yes, Lord.' That is our God full of mercy and compassion.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I believe my god will not like how you act here on earth. You will come back to be born again as inferior once more. Yes that's right, you will be reborn as a woman again! LOL!
  
  Check out planetsmilies.net for my green snake smilie. You see how it is, you comment on my smilie, I comment on your head scarf. Nothing pertinent in that exchange. Never is when personal attacks are used in debating subjects. And a "stake" for me? What sort of stake are you threatening me with using your god's blessing?
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God gives blessings and with them adds no sorrow to it. If it is a good thing...blessing. bad thing...curse. but thats not to say that that bad thing couldn't be a blessing in disguise either. things can be turned around for the good. I'm not refering to the "stake" either.
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  randy, hahaha. thats funny. arent you glad those days are over. its good thing most christians arent witch hunters huh?
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  not just witch hunters but not as evil and misguided as before considering most christians don't kill people for their disbelief. Actually in other countries it is christians that are being killed just for their belief.. because the other countries would prefer a rock or a little jade fat man named buddah.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But they still are, Celina! They just can't stone them, drown them, or burn them here in the U.S. anymore. The people who did this used your bible and god to judge those poor folks as witches, just as you do to those who do not agree with your ideas of what or who god is.
  
  And you twice avoided my questions about choosing the wrong god. Want to make it three times?
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Still having fun I see Randy.
  
  How are you this fine evening/morning, depending on location.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Went to bed and missed your post, Cags! Yep, still having fun!
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  im sorry randy,but i dont believe i have made any judgements against you or anyone else on here for not believing in my god. i am just telling WHAT it is that i do believe. its achoice for you if you believe or not. i dont dislike someone or turn them away because of their beliefs. some of my friends are athiests.
  
  what questions did you ask me about choosing the wrong god. I thought those were directed to someone else. so i guess yes. lets make it a 3rd time and next time i am in the forum i will do my best to answer your question. ok
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h.a.borcichposted 13 years ago
Mark,
The "debates" end up being demands of proof, insults and bullying. How many times have you called religious people delussional and unable to think for themselves? How many times do you call "kristians" stupid and call God names? Can you please direct me to a thread where you have civilly debated with a christian? I have been reading old threads in hopes to find one.
My point being that as long as a christians post in threads of interests to christians, you and other nonbelievers will be less than civil. As long as christians hold to their beliefs, you will insult and demean. As long as christians refuse to bend to your beliefs, you will bully and be obnoxious. You have been like that with me at every turn, even telling me you would like it to be illegal for me to have a Bible in my own home!
No. You have no desire to debate civilly, no capacity to tolerate a differing point of view, and you seem attracted to every christian living thread on hp!
Can you honestly deny this?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not at all. I find this disgusting and offensive - seriously - how is it possible to have a civil debate with this?
  
  You really think this is OK and it is all me?
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  Solnyshkaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  h.a.borcich, you are absolutely right! Mark, all it takes is for someone to utter the words "I am a Christian" and you are on them like a pit bull going straight for the jugular, just for the profession alone. And you don't even answer people's direct questions or comment on their specific points. You just repeat the same things over and over, saying "you have no morals"..."it's all my fault". Really, do you think THIS is okay?? Some of us actually want to discuss things here. You only want to attack and criticize. And your comment to this will be no different than that because it's all you ever do. You don't WANT a civil debate on the matter because you fully enjoy fighting.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Just not getting how this is open to a civil debate. Which pretty much proves you have no morals. Unless you can explain how this is open to a civil debate. What is there to discuss here:
  
  Take it back and say you did not mean it and you are wrong. Then we will talk.
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h.a.borcichposted 13 years ago
Mark,
In it's simplest form, a debate is usually a civil discussion between two differing points of view. Each is allowed to express their view on whatever subject matter, they present arguments to back their stance, and conclude. Civilly.
One position may alter their view based on the exchange, but whether or not the parties end up agreeing with each other, a debate can still be spirited and provacative. Unless it is in the religion forum on hp it seems.
So you find her position offensive. Fine. Say it is offensive - you are entitled to believe anything you would like to. But to say she is intellectually unable to even debate with you because she believes in God only makes you look bad. Basically looks like you are bowing out of being civil simply because you are prejudiced against christians.
Personally I have found some subjects offensive, but I can civilly debate my position. Other times I just watch the debate unfold and ponder - no crime in that if we are trying to learn something about people and life.
If you really wanted to debate - to express points of views and understand another perspective - I would think you could muster the civility to do so. To seek out and insult any and everything christian only obscures your view point. Is that what you hope to do?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nicely avoiding the question I see. Yes - I am telling you how offensive I find your ridiculous religion. I am being as civil as I can be. Was I not clear?
  
  What is there to understand in this perspective exactly?
  
  Are you seeing some point of debate here that I am missing? I mean - what is a reasonable response to this? And I am being the aggressor in this case?
  
  GOD WILL HAVE THE LAST SAY is the title of this thread. You think this is a reasonable opening gambit to a civil discussion?
  
  Or - maybe - just maybe - This is an attack on unbelievers and not an attempt to have a reasonable debate or civil discussion?
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  h.a.borcichposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  " I find this disgusting and offensive - seriously - how is it possible to have a civil debate with this?"
  
  I hit your question head on. I explained, offered personal tips to participate, etc. "So you find her position offensive. Fine. Say it is offensive - you are entitled to believe anything you would like to. But to say she is intellectually unable to even debate with you because she believes in God only makes you look bad. Basically looks like you are bowing out of being civil simply because you are prejudiced against christians."
  
  Now you finally admit the truth - you are too emotional about it to be civil. So yes, you are the one unable to debate. Maybe you should avoid threads you find so offensive.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I see you have no answered the question and are still defending this:
  
  Odd - I don't see you saying anything against this. Seriously - how can I have a rational discussion with this?
  
  All me huh?
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  h.a.borcichposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Whatever subject would be up for debate wouldn't matter. My last few posts have been with you about debating. Why would I advocate one side or the other when we were discussing the "how" to debate?
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h.a.borcichposted 13 years ago
"Take it back and say you did not mean it and you are wrong. Then we will talk. "

Does not equal debate, but it makes you transparent in objective.

If I tell you to "take back what you said about my Jesus and say you did not mean it and you were wrong. Then we will talk."
Would you?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sure. I take it back. Everything I have ever said. I was wrong. I know nothing. Nothing.
  
  Now what?
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  h.a.borcichposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Do you want to express your point of view, maybe hear my point of view? Pic whatever topic you like. There is no reason we can't have a civil conversation unless we choose not to. When we are done, no onew has to be denigrated. Game?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Certainly. What do you want to talk about?
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I love your spirit my sister. Way to go!
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h.a.borcichposted 13 years ago
I am open with no preconceived topic. Seriously. You and I think differently and this could be enlightening.
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Mark Knowlesposted 13 years ago
All right. In the interest of not hijacking this thread totally - I have moved it here:

http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/44260
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brotheryochananposted 13 years ago
God always has the last word or say.
By his spirit not our might, remember?
Its gods plan for our lives. Its gods best for us. Whatever desires we might have, we can toss them out the window because god is guiding and directing and he knows what is best for us.
I can believe that god will always have the last say in every avenue. His ways are not our ways and his thoughts so very far above ours.
Congrats! god keep up the god work
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  donnaisabellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Amen.
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Brenda Durhamposted 13 years ago
Yes He will.
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Brenda Durhamposted 13 years ago
Ironic.

What "god" is that of yours that you call out to?
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Brenda,
  Of course, you understand sarcasm when you read it. I think you are just playing the devil's advocate. Good for you. I'm sure the devil is pleased.
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
God is Mount Everest?
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  Celina Vanhoozerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  A question or conclusion?
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes.
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chucksta8196posted 13 years ago
interesting
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
No shortage of god botherers here today! Even offers to pray for those ill informed rabble who can't seem to grasp an invisible sky fairy!

Try not to pray for us OK? It is an insult to tell people you have the power to "fix" them with prayer, especially since your sky fairy has never answered one prayer in 2,000 years!

It is nice to be told that you are better than we are though!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  They are so funny. And this one thinks that if you argue with them, you are "cursing god". They don't seem to understand that - they do not speak for a god. Weird.
  
  Watch this for a laugh:
  
  http://www.michaelshermer.com/2009/09/m … e-skeptic/
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That was a good laugh Mark, but way to sophisticated for the god botherers, they won't get this either!
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Mark Knowlesposted 13 years ago
I wonder if you are even aware of what you are saying.

Clearly you state here that people who do not believe in god will go to hell. And at the same time claim not to have done so. This is the problem with your religion - it prevents you from understanding why this causes so much conflict.

You believe I am going to burn in hell (or whatever version it is that you believe). Because I don't believe the nonsense you believe. And you think you are being "Christ-like" by saying this?

And you think sending people to hell for not believing this nonsense is "love"?

This threat of punishment and verbal attack on non-believers will always cause conflict. It always has done. It always will do.

Sad.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Knowles said
You believe I am going to burn in hell (or whatever version it is that you believe). Because I don't believe the nonsense you believe. And you think you are being "Christ-like" by saying this?
======================================================

Not intending to be offensive, tought I'm sure this will be seen that way...on both sides of the arguement.

(Whether she is right or wroing) She does believe that. And she believes she would be helping you to "convert" you.
That's .. "Kinda" like .. having a friend in Junior high school ...."who believes" that if you do not finish high school and go to collage that, you will be dooming yourself to manual labor and poverty, a wife and six kids living on minimum wage.
Would you argue with him; saying that he is wishing that upon you, just because he wants you to believe like he does?
I know this isn't the same thing because ..??,,?,,?. But from their prospective it is.

Back to the original topic.
I think that us Believers should improve upon ourselves first.
Create a product (in us) that everyone would want to have.

If I had no desire for something in the first place? you couldn't talk me into buying it if you could not show me the finished product. Make me want it when I see it in you.
....Where Is the BACON ...

I think that if Christians could work among themselves, get this product off of the drawing board and out on the road there would be a 100 times as many converts.
I happen to believe that the Lord gave us a great product to sell, but we redesigned it, and it has been on the drawing board ever since. There may be a few great operating prototypes out there; someplace. But for the most part ... The current product that we see needs to be recalled to have the problems fixed.
I'm not talking about all believers ...But; If I was "JUST" a member in an organization? I'd take a long hard honest look around the place and see if there was anything that I could do to improve our reputation.

I am NOT excluding Myself from this scenario.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. It is incredibly rude of her - I agree. I don't care what she believes. The simple fact is - that by sharing what she thinks I should be doing - she causes a fight.
  
  I wouldn't dream of telling a total stranger what to do with their life. Yet many Christians see that as their mission in life. Without having their own life sorted, if not deliberately breaking some of their own rules. Why would I take a random stranger's advice when I know it is based on a misunderstanding of a 2000 year old religious tome they have probably never read all the way through? Why would I listen to some like Brenda's opinion on homosexuality and morals when she clearly breaks some of the other rules by getting divorced?
  
  Quite apart from that - she is wrong, and so are you. If you had a decent product to sell - it would not have caused the conflicts it has, is, and will continue to do.
  
  No one actually follows the instructions. Look at donnaisabella. I quoted thois to her:
  
  "Agree with your adversary quickly, submitting even to wrong for the sake of peace" (Matt. 5:25; 1 Cor. 6:7)
  
  And she says that does not apply to her:
  
  LOL What a joke.
  
  And I assume you have never actually read the bible because it is pretty clear to me that it says "My way or the highway". And if you think that is a great product to sell I can only assume that you are - once again - defending your belief from an untenable position because that is far more important to you than anything else.
  
  Where is the BACON Jerami? If Christians had behaved christ-like for the last 2000 years - we would not even be having this conversation.
  
  My argument has always been that your product is broken and needs a recall. Now you seem to agree. But I don't see you recalling it - merely trying to sell it on the basis that it could be fixed if we tried hard enough. Really? 2000 years is not enough to say - "it is broke, let's try something else?"
  
  How nuts is that to keep on trying to get something running which has never run? Talk about blind faith.
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  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  @Jerami i disagree with you ..pardon me..but human is just another species and if god wanted to sell something ..he would have hard coded it in brain since birth..he wont have needed mortals to promote anything...now consider this..there are 67% people in the world who dont know much about bible and christ..does that mean that 67% would be burnt in hell?...thats mean as far as god is concerned..he didn't take classes and now wants to fail students??????...
  
  consider name of person who changed the lives of millions and who influenced two leaders in two other continents who in turned changed lives of millions..now what would happen to mahatma gandhi?..he didn't convert to christianity...what would happen to him?..
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gonzo62003posted 13 years ago
Hello earnestshub How is my aussie writer doing? Good to see your still around hope you had a super fathers day!
Take care and God Bless -- please my friend continue to sharpen minds with your ways. You do have alot to offer.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you Gonzo. Any fan mail in the forums is rare and delicious!
  I am going great so far, thanks for asking! Still trying to find new ways to explain car stuff to the natives. Thanks for the fathers day wishes.
  We celebrate it a bit later than you do.
  
  I'm not to sure about sharpening the minds though. I remember something my father taught me that has stood the test of time.
  
  "There are none so blind as those who will not see."
  
  Religious knowledge by it's own rules require this blindness.
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  Friendlywordposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Do you believe in Astrology? Do you believe the planets have a large influence on our behavior? It is a scientific fact. And I know there may be no intelligence behind the force or influence the planets have on us; I cant help but think the universal influence on us Might have some intelligent design we can not grasp with our tiny little minds. Maybe that's why there are so many people desparate to understand and cling to their beliefs because they can not accept the fact that we will never now the mind of God for sure.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Astrology is just a form of entertainment. There is nothing scientific about it. The planets have no more influence over our behavior than green cheese on the moon.
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
I take a more Jungian viewpoint.
Our own minds hold the god concept as an archetype. It is driven by fear of the unknown and fear of death.

part of a primitive part of our brain commonly called the "lizard" brain."
Extensive scientific research has been done using a galvanic probe to change responses from this built in fight or flight response mechanism.

That which is unknown does not in my opinion need reassignment to a sky fairy from a dodgy book!
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