there is no evidence that jesus as a historical figure lived. is it not a myth then?
as long as jesus gives hope to people how does it matter?...coming to distinguishing myth and real....i agree we have very limited capacity to do that...few years back a survey was done in Britain and many believed Sherlock was real while Gandhi and Churchill were myth...
There is no evidence that the Mona Lisa was in fact a portrait of Lisa del Giocondo. Only assumptions that the facial expressions are similar. And they lived in the same area. Unanimous assumption does not equate with reality but it is accepted. So who knows?
I believe that throughout the years and the various interpretations of Gods word there is a lot of things that have been taken out context.
However they have found evidence throughout the eastern coast that there was a "Jesus"
I don't think so - the name itself is in disput, the form jesus is a Latinised form of another name which I guess must have been Hebrew. There are plenty of threads about this. There is NO evidence of any single figure matching the description and actions of the biblical figure - except writings from many years after the supposed events. Contemporary writers do not mention any such figure or any of the supposed events.
NO HARD EVIDENCE of any figure fitting any of the descriptions has been found - to promote such an idea is a blatant lie, or the repetition of a lie by others.
You could say the same thing about any figure in history, since you weren't there to see them, they don't exist.
The writer Josephus mentions Jesus in his writings, he was a Jewish man who threw in his lot with the Romans. He wrote about Roman history.
No one ever saw Mohammad that lives now and yet people believe he lived.
What is your thought on Allah?
You are being ironic I assume? nobody is so stupid as to need to see everything with their own eyes. We rely on other people seeing with their eyes and then writing it down, we then decide whether they are telling the truth or were tricked or whatever.
There is no proof of any kind that any Jesus figure existed except hearsay accounts by people many years later who, like you, seem to have been wound into the myth and believe it was true.
Growing up is to accept that there are many things we don't know and we learn a few tools to deal with this. Corroborative evidence is one of the tools and there is none for any Jesus figure, so the whole story is on the same level as gossip and urban myth.
Do you believe that George Washington and Abraham Lincoln existed although we were not there we only have written literature about them ? Is there a possiblity they did not exist? I believe they did. I am not being rude or smart I need your opinion
Thank you very much
We have many photos of Abe, along with many documents written by his own hand. We have portraits of GW and much of his written works. The amount of historical documentation of both mentioned presidents is overwhelming at the very least.
None of these things can be said for Jesus. But I suppose you can't tell the obvious differences. You would make a good Christian if this is indeed so.
Thank you for your comment,
I believe that abraham Lincoln and George washington existed do you know that Abraham Lincoln and George Washington it is document proof believe in God and Jesus and they never had a picture of Jesus because there were no cameras back in the days of jesus to prove how he looked. But they believe the bible said blessed is he who have never seen but believe.
Jesus was referring to himself. He knewed that one day he would leave this earth and people who never have seen him if they believe in him will have everlasting Life John 3: 16
Randy my frind I know you dont believe in Jesus but he love you anyway. If you were the only person left on earth , Jesus would have died for you. He love you and so do I regardless what you say about me a Christian and Jesus I and Jesus will love you even more.
Have a good night my Friend
How old ru? May I ask? It seems to me u have it set in ur mind that Jesus ...or God, doesn't exist?.. WOW..I can see that u were not reaised to believe. Well, HE does exist. I believe. Yes, to proving He is alive...His cloth that he was buried in, was found and IT shows facial structure of our Lord. I do believe and know that because I believe, I will receive everlasting life as well. Don't want to risk going to the place where "There's knashing of teeth"...GOD says I will be in paradise..I will take that over living wrong anyday... GOD BLESS you..and answer me one more question, if u will?..When u hurt urself and are in intense pain or right b4 someone dies..do they not say OH GOD help me? <3 K
If you are referring to the shroud of Turin, that cloth has been proven to be a fake.
You are an excellent example of how the "fear" of death has pushed people into believing of a heaven.
Shouting out and taking the God's name in vain does not offer up proof that he actually exists. It is just our culture that has adopted that speech pattern and expression.
Seriously, how can anyone KNOW?
Did you think this question over before you asked it?
There is no answer but: "who knows?"
Anyone who says they 'KNOW" is just guessing.
yes qwark nobody can know
what i pointed out is that for such a famous person(according to bible) there is nothing left to point out that such a person lived.
if he was an obscure jew its ok. but no he forced himself to the synagogues and preached there, multitudes went after him, fed 5000-7000, resurrected two, including a roman, great events occurred during his birth and death, but no no contemporary writers or historians noticed him, nor he left any letters.
There is a world of difference, between History and Truth ...
Hey, Jomine, did you not get your answer in the other several posts you made on this subject? Or have you just not had enough to satisfy your 'curiousity'? I'm not sure what kind of evidence you would require but the evidence that does exist is about the same as it is for any ancient figure, Aristotle, the Caesars, Mohamed, Tutankhamen, anybody. The farther away a culture is in time from anyone who ever lived, regardless of documentation or achievements, the less we are likely to believe they existed and the more distorted the facts of their existence becomes.
Jasmine, by every critical standard for determining whether a person truly existed or not, He did. Argue his deity if you must, but pretending that the evidence is not out there from other sources is pointless.
this is true... Not only is the bible a book with the most reliable and numerous manuscripts backing it of any ancient text, but also Josephus (a secular ancient historian) pointedly records Jesus' existence. glad you left this comment...
i wouldnt say that there is no evidance that he lived. What i would say is that there is no physical evidance of his mericles. That is not to say that they did not happen. I think believers are going on a little something called faith.
Thank you for sharing your beliefs with us all. Man, a whole lot of people will not have existed now with those kinds of constraints on what it takes to have existed 2000 years ago.
The whole topic of Jesus, or idea, doesn't act at all like a typical myth. We do know one thing, that if he DID exist, AND his message were true, then everything would look JUST as it does in this world, history and in people's actions now. That is something no one can make true or not. (Including many people insisting it is all just a myth.)
And if he didn't exist in myth, things would be the same also, except more people would be around to enjoy life. The Crusades and other religious wars tell us that.
It don't matter how you slice it .... approx the same number of people would have died in our past .. with or without War, Disease, or starvation.
Everyone in our past has died. how would you have liked to have changed that?
Would you have perfered they had died a different way ?
Or do you wish they were still with us ??
I am serious !
How would you change it ?
I don't see how you arrived at your math, Jerami. Without the crusades there would have been more people on earth. Without any religion at all, at least 6 million Jews would have had time to create several generations of offspring.
How many children would have been alive today if Jim Jones hadn't talked his followers into taking poison and giving it to their kids? These are merely a few examples. What do you suggest would have killed all of the mentioned people instead?
But you are avoiding the question.
OK ! Let me expain. Everybody that has died didn't have more children. Is that your point ?
Let us assume that they didn't die from war. They had even more children that had children, Our current population "could" be twice what it is today. More people would be starving to death than what already are, OR ..
People are going to die. OR we can keep having babies and soon be standing shoulder to shoulder with no place to sit.
What do you suggest as a better system than what nature already has.
We already know what would be better, Jerami! World peace and less religion and hatred among the different cults. Look how long birth control was frowned upon by the Catholic Church and how those around the world who would have made use of such birth control did not have it. The money saved on wars would have fed many more people at any rate.
Science would have accelerated at a faster rate also. Earlier scientists were afraid to announce their findings because of the threat of heresy from the religious of the time.
Nope, religion retards advancement in most instances.
perhaps it's not religion that is the problem but rather the mishandling of it. one could easily point to examples of the mishandling of science. this doesn't make science bad or false. so why must we villanize religion?
If you do the research (search the historic archieves) in the last century more
people were slain in the name of atheism than all of the reglious wars whatever the religions that were raged for thousands of year.
Case in point: Mao Tse Tun (Atheistic Communist) regime was responsible
for the deaths of 80 million people during the mid 20th century c.e.
A lot of the reasons we see that Christianity is attacked, are indeed things that Jesus would have spoken against as well. Ironic how some people really end up supporting what they are supposedly against.
Jesus never taught the very things you are using as examples to criticize him or the movement he began. He taught the opposite. If you care to learn what Jesus actually taught, then maybe this error we keep on seeing wouldn't happen so much. Its reasoning full of holes and poor thinking. Facts, logic and reason matter here.
The truth is, if everyone lived by the things Jesus taught, then the world would be a much better place. Those are the facts, undeniable.
Every time people use the "crusades or killing" as an excuse, we can all see right through it. You do know that Jesus not only taught opposite of that, he died proving the opposite. The apostles did too. The crusades give credence to a bigger problem, seen all throughout history. Pinning that on Jesus doesn't work. So far, you agree with Jesus, if you are anti killing lol.
You have no idea exactly what Jesus taught as there is no validated record of his existence or exact words. The gospels were originally written in Greek "according to" the alleged apostles of Yoshua.
It would be great to be positive he ever said anything purported to be his words, but we have no such guarantee. I suppose some are fine with words which he "may have uttered" but no one knows for sure if the writer just made them up. Does it make a difference to you? Or is it okay no matter who made up the words? Think about it, if you dare
Hi Randy. It is pointless to argue, since the only eyewitness accounts were written by people you don't trust. But, don't you wonder why Christianity could have spread so rapidly if it wasn't the truth? Here you have a religion that put the world on it's head, so to speak, in it's relationship with theCreator and how people regarded each other. The only thing believers stood to gain was death. They weren't a conquering army. Just people willing to die for what they knew to be true. That's a pretty powerful argument to me.
How do you know this? There have been many religions which have spread rapidly over the course of history. Does this, in itself, mean they all have real gods. Of course not, just yours right?
The gospels were considered as almost a serial of the Jesus story. The Greek writers knew this and took advantage of the popularity of the saga.
And yes, isn't it sad the believers were willing to endure such harsh treatment if they were merely being duped by others? We see the very same results today when delusion presents itself to rational people.
Well I would disagree with other religions spreading in the same way and with the speed that Christianity spread, and yes it would be horrible if they died in vain. But they weren't delusional and neither are followers of Christ today.
Faith. And I know you'll have s field day with that one, but that's ok. You're a funny guy. I am pretty strong in my belief, so I can take it.
During the early days of the movement that would later be called Christianity claiming that you believe in Jesus was considered a crime punishable by death and even today in the 21st centurary in some counties being a Christian is a crime punishable by death. If something is false would you continue to believe in it if believing in it could get you killed? I doubt it!
If Jesus were a myth, a lot of history and what we see currently would not look like it does, not at all. That is just taking the opposite side for the sake if taking it, it seems. If a real God were to reveal himself in a real way, to humanity, we would expect to see things look just as they do. The whole planet changed forever, lives continuing to be changed in amazing ways, thousands of years later, and more. People still can't seem to stop talking about it, (as we see in these forums... )
This is why I think so many are on a hunt to kill the message, that has never changed. The use of extreme inconsistency in thinking regarding that one worldview in particular is that way for a reason. Anyway, its not for sufficient lack of evidences that people don't believe. It is part of the free will of man to reject it and other things as well. Its fine to do, but the whole game thing, accusations and attack mode doesn't add up unless it is actually true. That is ironic and undeniable.
There is a book called The Holy Bible that was given to us by God who created the world and everything that is in it. God spoke our world into place. No one else could do this Man has to have something to create something else. He gave us the Bible through his direction of dedicated men of God and what the Bible says is the truth. No I have not seen Jesus, but others did in his time on this earth. I accept Jesus on faith and that is what we have to have in order to believe in Jesus and that he is God's son and that he died on the cross for our sins so that we might have eternal life through him. I don't have to see Jesus to believe in him. I feel him move in my heart each and every day of my life. Jesus is not a myth. He is real.
Interesting, considering that all the heart does is pump blood. Are you saying our blood is Jesus?
I am saying that because I have asked Jesus into my heart spiritually speaking, I know he is alive. I know the physical heart just pumps blood, but the spiritual heart or the sould is where Jesus abides and lives in us and guides us through our daiyly lives. The sould is where Jesus abides in us.
I most certainly can. In Genesis 2:7 it says, "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul." Our soul is the immortal part of our body and it will be the part of our body that either goes to heaven or hell. Mine is going to heaven.
YOU as a person cannot prove you have a soul. But, thank you for the conjecture from your debunked religion.
I don't have a religion. I have a relationship. That is the reason it is real and not debunked. I serve a living God who created me and loves me and sent His Son Jesus to die on the cross for my sins and also for your sins as well. This statement is not to be mean. I only hope that you can understand the relevance of what I am saying. If I did not believe it so strongly, I would not make the effort for your well being.
When did you stumble onto this religion, Dian? How many different religions did you check out before you decided to be a Baptist, Methodist, or what ever church our parents took you too?
You did get indoctrinated at an early age, right?
Yes you do. Sorry that you cannot understand that. You cannot have a relationship with a god and NOT have a religion, because religion created the god concept, NOT the other way around.
You have a relationship with yourself is what you have.
Interesting that you claim not to have a religion, but speak about religion within your words. Therefore, it shows you lack the knowledge and understanding of your own words.
I didn't say anything about it it being mean?
I understand what you're saying and it's complete nonsense, because of all available knowable knowledge in existence, which you completely dismiss makes it of no sense.
My well being? You're joking right. It's funny how you consider your reply to me, for my well being. Apparently, since you have trouble being honest with yourself, I guess you cannot be honest with me. Oh well. It was worth a shot. You're no different than any other religious person.
Sorry that you feel the way that you do. I do not worship a religion. I worship a living God. And as for my concern about you. It is real. Christians do not define Christianity as a religion, but as an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ. It is the only religion you don't have to work to be saved. That is waht makes other religions simply religions and Christianity a relationship.
I think you are referring to your brain where such activities such as beliefs reside. There's doesn't appear to be such a thing as a 'spiritual heart' as anything spiritual has never been shown to exist.
Some use their brains to think while in others the capacity for thinking has been overridden with irrational beliefs, hence they are unable to coherently think and understand concepts.
The soul is another such thing that has never been shown to exist and no believer has ever been able to distinguish from anything else from our physical states of being.
I am going to make one more attempt at this. I really should not even remark, but I would hope that you could actually FEEL something inside yourself. If you have ever fallen in love with a woman or another person, it was not your brain that fell in love with that person. It was your heart or soul that fell in love with that person. You had feelings that you could not explain with the powers of your brain. Yes I do think with my brain, I do understand the consepts of my beliefs with my brain but the deep emotions that I have are in my heart or soul. This is where God lives in my soul. When I lost my father 2 months ago, I did not feel with my brain I felt it deep in my soul. I still do. This is not something of the brain, it is of the soul. My relationship with God is not something of my brain it is in my soul where my emotions lie and yours also if you could ever turn loose of your need to stifle them and let your soul actully feel. You seem to be a very concrete, bitter person who is missing out on a lot of joy and happiness in your life. I am not trying to push my beliefs on you. That would do no good. You have to be the one to make up your mind to that. It is apparent to me that you have had something in your life that has essentially shut down your emotions except for bitterness and the need to always be right. Therefore, I am done with this debate. I have not lost, you have.
Dian'sword4, Thank you for sharing the truth about the heart, soul and brain. God bless you sister!
That is nonsense, the heart pumps blood and there is no such thing as a soul. It all happens in the brain, which then triggers the release of biochemicals in your body that makes all those things happen. This is simple biology.
The brain triggers those feelings, which are the result of the biochemicals being released in your body, again, simple biology.
The heart pumps blood and is unable to have 'emotions' - it all happens in the brain.
No, your brain understands the concept of your fathers death and releases biochemicals in your body, which is what you are feeling, nothing more. Simple biology.
Sorry, but the soul has never been shown to exist.
What utter garbage. The fact that I don't share your religious beliefs does not mean I'm bitter or am missing out on anything.
Clearly, you're unable to carry on a debate without having to resort to personal insults and lies. How very Christian of you.
Beelzedad; Clearly, you're unable to carry on a debate without having to resort to personal insults and lies. How very "whatever" of you.
Evidently you are unable to understand the concept of emotion and/or feelings. Therefore you are not able to debate such things. How sad!
Jerami, are you showing yet another area of understanding that you don't understand?
People like to rule out the Bible as being historical evidence. However, eyewitness evidence to the life of Jesus by his contemporaries is a very strong evidence for many, and rightly so.
People like to throw out those evidences, and demand more and stronger ones than eyewitness testimony many times over. Then they can say things like, "there is no evidence, why do people believe in fairy tales, etc.?"
That is really just the expression of people's own beliefs on the subject, not really relying on facts of matters for proofs that help us to know if an individual existed 2000 years ago.
That we have what we have, is amazing. That many wanted to hide the message and kill it back then, and continue to on to today, is almost more of an amazing evidence to me and many others. You really couldn't ask for more.
I trust the amazing eyewitness testimony of those that lived, ate and walked with him, and even Luke, who was a close confidant of those that did as well. That the dead sea scrolls support other parts of the bible is amazing.
If you do an honest study on what constitutes reliable written words from long ago, nothing in all of history has what the bible has to back it up. We can trust they wrote what they did, much more than say that Shakespeare wrote what he did. Do a study on manuscripts, evidences, ancient texts, etc to see if I am making this up. Its amazing for those that want to know the truth. The things that no one can make true or not, but that just seem to be.
Based on eyewitness accounts, all you have is a guy who walked around with some interesting new ideas that intrigued those particular people. So what?
This does not follow with anything that would support a resurrection or bestowing a divine nature to that guy. There is a huge difference when discussing the "Bible as being historical evidence" to a guy wandering around with ideas.
uhhh, they weren't new ideas, and saying they were only proves you know squat. And stimulated controversy and debate for billions of people for two thousand years. Pretty impressive for someone who never existed. Better than bowing to Joe the plumber.
I will have to respectfully disagree, that what Jesus said and did just intrigued those particular people of that time. We see many even now, and ever since he died be intrigued. Notice too, the very nature of the responses....rarely is it just a ho hum response. That message triggers usually one of two responses in people, though some just ignore it.
I don't know why the Bible should be ruled out as historical evidence, with all of the amazing evidences tied to it. Its uncanny, almost for a man that had a public life of only 3 years. He was a "nobody" in some ways, but then everything, in others. Miracles surrounding his whole life from pre birth to the end. For a guy like that? It commands attention for sure. I think this is just as it would be, if God wanted to communicate to humanity directly, yet also allow for the choice to reject it if one insists.
Yes, we see that what Socrates, Plato and a host of other philosophical legends said back then also intrigues people of today.
You are making claims that are not supported. What evidences are you referring to, exactly?
Those so-called miracles are hardly believable and are most likely either fabrications or exaggerations. They do little more than support the idea that Jesus was indeed a myth.
or had access to methods we don't. CPR started in 1963. Pretty simple stuff. Many of our Drs. were considered magicians and miracle workers not thirty years ago in some places. Your statements are really about ego. The universe must revolve around our comprehension of it or it simply must not exist. That is what we hear from you. ALL the time. Blah, blah, blah.
Like, through most of the bible belt, Kansas and so on...?
I have no idea where you got that.
Then, don't read and respond to my posts. A very easy solution.
A response to argumentative statements issued only to back up your obvious fear of christians and their beliefs, using inane, ambiguous arguments from a position mid-lake while standing on thin ice, is what I live for. Can't take it? POOOR baby. You haven't a clue, don't want a clue, and wouldn't know a clue it it jumped out at you and said "BOO!" So, exactly what is your point for being here other than arguing for the sake of arguing? What? Can't take it? POOOR baby. Still smilin'
Yup. Thanks for demonstrating how aggressive Christians are. Well done. Still laughing at your hypocritical belief system. Do ya lub me? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Druid, He is here to argue and mock believers, hoping to upset believers. I am not ashamed of my faith in God.
I don't really see what we see with Jesus, with Socrates, Plato and a host of other figures. If you do though, that is fine. They are great, don't get me wrong..I love a good philosopher! Philosophy is one of my favorite topics. I like to observe others' philosophies, like in these forums, if you watch you can see them playing out in the discussions.
The claims I am speaking of are just the biblical evidences in manuscripts vs other ancient texts of all time. If you do a true study of this, use even much more recent history say even Shakespeare for example (and we all automatically trust that he wrote what he wrote with much much less, centuries later even), you can see that the biblical manuscripts have great support over other literature. This is simply amazing. I don't look at those facts lightly, like some do. Instead of finding proof over time to debunk the Bible, we see only more support.
You don't have to believe me, I am inviting you to research it yourself if you want to know the truth on it is all. The point of the miracles, is that those things don't happen, and only a being with powers not limited to the natural laws we all are, could talk so "big", as Jesus did. The very stamp of God was on him it seemed, was the point. If those kinds of evidences don't impress, I don't know what would, and it seem there may be more going on in that regard. I respect your right to totally disagree.
They all had some interesting ideas. Of course, the existence of Jesus is under dispute.
Correction, other "religious" ancient texts.
Sorry, but I don't see that at all.
Again, I don't see that at all.
What exactly is the "stamp of God"? Who decides that?
It's not really a matter of disagreeing, it's a matter of your so-called evidences actually existing.
To Beelzedad: Jesus is only under dispute to those who don't know Him! If you live long enough to get to know Him you'll understand that what you believe is what you believe, and it means nothing to those of us who truly believe that Jesus is our Savior. Your disputing will NEVER refute that!God Bless U!
Jesus falls more into the category of Semi-legendary. This is actually accurate. Not quite a fact, not quite a myth. One other fact shoud be considered. Crucifixion. By all historical evidence, crucifixion was common practice in Rome and elsewhere, but especially in the Roman controlled areas. Very popular. The Slave rebellion led by Sparticus was said to have ended with the road to Rome and hundreds of crucifixions, yet, only one heel bone with a spike through it, is the only piece of real evidence that has ever been found that it was practiced at all. Next, deny the holocaust. Nothing worse than someone who obviously wants to wallow in ignorance. I have no patience with that. They are being OBTUSE. Go, run for your dictionaries!
Very well stated. The bible is a historical and spiritual book. That's amazing! It's the greatest book of all. The truth will always stand. God bless you Oceansnsunsetts
In all, it is estimated that Rome alone crucified tens of thousands.
No - not really. It certainly does cause a lot of wars though. Well done. I no u like to fight. Like wot god sed.
I suppose myth is anything you feel awckward about, like anything that you believe to be a confusing figure. In this sense, it has to be true that Jesus was a myth. Basically, all we currently know about him is told by the Bible and some isolated pieces of writing. Yet, if you read the New Testament, the inconsistencies are so huge that you cannot believe anything they claim to be Jesus' life or almost anything. I have written a fair bit about the whole lot in my hubs, please look. On the other hand, if you are a religious person, it actually suffices that you approach one of the violators of my brains and body (am not joking!) and find a way of either having them writing a witnessing note for you (certified) or you writing yourself 'after seeing' and giving that to me so that I can finally have justice. Jesus, as for all we know, even offered his own blood and body to others in a meal, at least symbolically. Well, human kind definitely took me to be as stupid as that, otherwise I would not be suffering atrocity for so long, by so many, I believe. I actually have horror of the description of Jesus' history in the Bible and believe the New Testament should not be there at all, just like the Jews, who Jesus claimed to be his people, also believe. Rush to save me from these atrocities, please, restore my human rights, and give me maximum human justice. I have a page 'on how to help', pls access it and read. Any issues call +61466068832 or send me a message so that I know about them, like even if you help me with a donation, for instance, and 2,000 euros would help me publishing my article on scientific evidence of the device in my head, for instance, let me know via SMS because there is nothing and nobody I do not get stolen from my life and being by Australia and others since end of 2001. It is obviously more than urgent. I also had all destroyed criminally in my brains, body, and life, by the own authorities from first world nations, believe it or not, and the authorities from a last world nation, where I came from originally. Rush to help. I am sure I was entitled not only to rights, but to best treatment available in human kind at most by 2000.
Hey Mariamorta, I believe you need help!!! Jesus will help you, if you ask Him to! No invasion, no blood required. Christians are the reason you're so confused. Many of them have no more clue about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit than you do. Truly sad isn't it?
Maybe you should spend some time reading some Apologetic on the subject to find out why we who are followers of Jesus believe that he indeed Jesus is real. Understanding why we believe might give you a clue into if he is real or not. Just a thought.
Humanity has the problem with understanding Jesus because humanity does not have knowledge of, or an understanding about spiritual things. Have you ever doubted or denied any meaning of words listed in Webster's dictionary? I'm willing to bet that you haven't! Did you ever meet Daniel Webster? NO! But you believe what the dictionary says without question! If you went to college you sucked up everything presented to you - right or wrong! Why? Because a man said it!
You need to realize that all these people who claim to know so much about Jesus are self seekers trying to influence you to be on the same, go to nowhere, road they're on. They are the blind leading the blind!
I fully understand why you are so confused about the validity of Jesus. You live in a world that is SELF motivating, and Self fulfilling to a point that things you don't understand are foreign to you, so you blindly reject them.
From what you're saying here, you've never even opened a Bible, so there's no way you can come close to understanding what spiritual things are.
To those of us who are Christians and followers of Christ these people who have their falty, blind, and ungodly opinions mean absolutely nothing.
No one on this palnet can convince me that God has not been a major factor in my life and to my success in my life. They can talk till they're blue in the face, but I'll totally ignore their ignorance.
They try to downplay the Bible teachings but they've never read the Bible. And, if they have read it they do not understand that the Bible is a spiritual book that cannot be understood with the puny human mind! They do not comply to each other.
Allow me to give you a brief Bible lesson. If you have a Bible please look in it so that you will see what I'm attempting to enlighten you on. Look at John 4:24. It says "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth." The problem here is that most of you who think you know so much about God, Jesus, and the Bible fail to realize that what you're saying makes you look totally ignorant to the eyes of the world!
If you are not a spiritual person there is no way that you have the right to even comment on the things of God, and of Jesus Christ!
The one writer in previous blogs made the, misled, statement that they wanted someone to "save them." This shows their ignorance because only God can save you, and you are so ignorant to fall out of favor with the only one in the Universe that can save you.
I say this to all you anti- Jesus people... keep running your mouth. Your words WILL come back to haunt you!!!
New Testament accounts on Jesus existence are based on eyewitnesses, whereas mythical accounts are not.
2 Peter 1:16 says, 'For we have not followed cunningly devised fables(myths), when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.'
You might want to learn more about your precious religion.
I am learning more about Jesus every day. One thing I know for certain is that He exists, regardless of who doesn't believe. And for those who don't believe, I'd like to know where's your evidence?
Well, I can say you've learned well from your religion. You immediately jump to claim proof for something not said.
I said you should learn more about your religion. I didn't say anything about Jesus, which you obvious don't understand, because of a lack of knowledge about your own religion.
You're more than welcome to check out my proof that your Christianity religious philosophy is false.
Maybe, just maybe, you'll learn something new for once.
There was eyewitness accounts that the Jesus of the Bible existed the apostles who had been with him even after he died wrote about him. The Apostle Paul in the book of Acts before he became a christian hated christians and had them put to death.
Paul was called Saul before his conversion in 35AD paul didnot believe in Jesus before his conversion. He was a athiest until he had a experience with Jesus in Acts 9 chapter. After that experience Paul began to preach Jesus the Bible Jesus as real he wrote the epistles in prison. All the eyewitnesses wrote about him and it was documented history from the time it was written until this day. I have a queston why would these witnesses give their lives for thing or someone that is false?
myth means symbolic stories. Jesus is part of Christian mythology. But myth does not mean lies, it has come to mean that. But it does not mean that. It means symbolic stories that persist. Was Jesus a historical figure. There accounts of Jesus outside the bible. In that respect, he is a historical figure, although his exact existence cannot be placed precisely but somewhere in a 30 year span. The questionable character is Moses, there are no adoptive or actual sons of pharoah bearing this name. His name means from out of the waters which also means--from out of consciousness.
No errors in the BIBLE. JESUS was NOT a myth 2 verses in the BIBLE
Gen. 1-1 and John 1-1 should straighen things out for you.
Myths are Unsubstantiable Notions ... which could, or may not, be Held in terms of a stated Narrative
Peace and Blessings of God be Upon Jesus Christ, the son of Blessed Mary ... For he is a Sign, the Manifestation, of The Word of God.
Denial ... does not need feet to stand.
no i just happen to know what myth actually means. Because I'm in that field. Your definition is wrong.
oh and just to show you I'm in that field, watch my TEDtalk:
Ignorance stands on assumptions.
Thank you ... I read/watched, your referred clips, these helped Confirm, what was previously, Assumption.
You see, we have fundamental differences of perception, vis a vis, The Reality.
You think, Knowledge is Acquired, I Believe, its Granted... though you Agree with a someone's saying, that it is impossible to State, the Truth ... and I am doing, exactly that.
Besides, you are a Materialist, still searching for your Material bearings ... while I know of my humble Station in life, and am resigned to the Predestination of my Being.
You deny, God, and His Created, thus, you are a Chrirsian turned Aetheist, hence, the standard Secular Scholar, while I am a simple Practicing Muslim ... trying to share my little known.
So lets do our respective jobs, and agree ... with Shakespeare, "That the Twain shall never meet."
I'm not a materialist nor an atheist. (Just went to church last sunday) and my late father was a converted Muslim, (he tried, but alas I have my own mind) but yes, I am a mythologist. and mythology is the study of stories that are expressed as radical differences of perception of the same thing, visavis reality about knowledge that is granted AND acquired. This is a forum. We come here to discuss. You accuse denial, I refute it. No need to take it personally just because you are proven wrong. Or name-calling.
if you don't want to grow, don't peep out of your seed.
go CCB !! thanks for the amusing post, but I would have to butt in to suggest that you, who complains about the price of your cleaner, is not a materialist might be pushing the ripost a litte far
I said, I am a humble Muslim, I am not here to refute or accuse ... I am sharing, what I know ... of Truth.
sharing means you accept and give
you take what you dish out
if you want to say goodbye, stop talking. I am not saying goodbye. I am here to discuss, you don't want to answer that's good too. But you can't make me stop talking, you can only ignore me. when you do the discussion ends.
I state ... I do not discuss.. because Reason, and Belief, are incompatible. Hence, its a waste of time discussing Compatibilities, of the Incompatibles ... and I have work to do ... I have to Share my Known.
So as I said ... read carefully, what I write ... to accept or reject, is your, own business ... not mine.
I pray, may Allah Show you The Way, and May He shower Mercy, on your Father's soul ... Amen
If you want to state stay out of the forums. Forums are for discussions. Write a hub.
Belief is an aspect of reason. Your reason rests on your beliefs. And your beliefs are what you are using as reason. They are sisters.Once again.
There is only ONE G-d. It is we who divide.
Keep on being divisive. cut cut cut. this is different, this not this. fragment what is one. It is all ONE. And what is the result? Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism,Buddhism, Janism, Athiesm,Science, Philosophy...guess what they're all MYTHOLOGY. they are the stories we sing in unison to describe
something we feel within us but cannot put into words. But we are all deluded in thinking they are different songs. They are not. They're the same thing. Why? They are from the same source.
Allah, Elohim, Dios, Zeus. Different names. It stands for the same thing. The Creative Principle. It is a concept that cannot even be adequately described by that description.
The son, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Moses. the enlightened messenger, the hero and savior. HORUS. you can chop it up all you want. its still the same story. you can either see it as one, or use it to separate yourself from others.
Myth: A traditional story accepted as history; serves to explain the world view of a people.
and if you don't know what TED is, check this out:
No I did not know about TED ... after reading your clip, it seems more like a cult, than altruistic assemblage ... of noble souls.
But the Nobel Prize to Al Gore, is now thoroughly explained
Shahid Bukhari, if you call research a cult, then you best go to your own Muslim religion and pray five times a day for knowledge. goodluck!
and while you're praying, meditate on this: bismillâh ir-rahmân ir-rahîm, Qul huwa Allâhu ahad
Allah is ONE.
It is we who divide.
Who cares, the important thing is myth or no myth has influenced the world greatly.
Josephus the historian wrote about Jesus and was essentially a contemporary.
Completely false! Josephus was born after the so called death of JC. Do not use information from Creation sites as facts. They all regurgitate the same debunked information.
Among New Testament scholars (both Christians and non-Christians), this question is sometimes asked (I have a PH.D. in New Testament). The answer is nearly always, "No, Jesus was not a myth. He did exist." The only serious NT scholar of late to doubt this is Robert Price. Even atheistic scholars like Bart Ehrman (University of North Carolina) generally accept the existenence of Jesus. The real question is not whether or not Jesus existed, but rather what type of person was he? To investigate this question, consult the book: The Historical Jesus : Five Views. http://www.amazon.com/Historical-Jesus- … amp;sr=8-1
a PhD...yes you are correct. I have read that book.
I trust Price's rare capacity for critical thinking, and although I don't have a PHD in the new testament, I have studied all the books of the bible and many early religions to arrive at my beliefs.
2,000 years, all the scientific capacity to examine evidence that we have today, yet still not one spec of real evidence, unlike so many before his time.
Well, actually it does matter if one confuses myth with reality. The Dark ages were the result of consistently feeding people superstition. We only got to the level of technology and science we have now because for a short while there we eliminated superstition.
It's returning big time now. When people cannot differentiate between superstition and science, then we are approaching another dark age.
And I firmly believe we are.
In my lifetime, I have seen ignorance become a roaring fire.
I can agree with this - the inability to see myth and metaphor are two dimensional thinking. And the mishmash of ignorance and superstition that seems to be erupting all around is astounding in these times of so much information and factual evidence to hand.
I have this idea that it is a retreat from reality. With western economies pretty much in recession for the last twenty years life has been - hard while all around the myth of a good life screams out from billboards and the tv. The 'normal' life that is promised is unnattainable for most and so is a myth. Which it is, created by advertisers and the media.
I am very struck by the number of new christian types who appear to know it is myth but carry on regardless - deliberately propogating what they know to be a lie, maybe because the truth is not to their taste.
The only problem is that it does not address the issues for change, it avoids meeting the problems head on and just allows it to continue and get worse.
China man, totally.
Actually, the degree of ignorance frightens the living daylights out of me. These people cling together in a mob mentality and lynch reason. And like any other mob throughout history, they honestly believe that what they are doing is right.
I think the reason so many get caught in these superstitions is because they are constantly bombarded by the media as to what they should have, and they fall far short of achieving it. So, they think they will get it through some magical means (prayer, law of attraction, etc).
The reason is it so hard to remove them from these superstitions is that they would be too depressed at their 'failure' in life to be able to live with themselves.
Unhappily, they cannot accept that it's okay to be at the bottom of the pile. I am. It's very comfortable.
well said. We burned witches, tortured sorcerers, and it was al because of fear. Once again the world is becoming a frightening place to be. Once again, fear is takeing root. Once again, we all look for a mericle.
The majority of people in the world today assume or believe that Jesus Christ was at the very least a real person. Perhaps he wasn't really "the Messiah", perhaps he was not "The Son of God", and perhaps he didn't actually perform miracles and rise from the dead, but he really was a great moral teacher who traveled around Galilee with followers and got arrested by the Jews and crucified by the Romans right? Not likely. In fact, a close examination of the evidence shows that the best explanation for the story of "Jesus Christ" is what we call "mythology". Like many other religious figures, "Jesus Christ" began as a theological concept, was later used as a character in allegorical stories, and was then historicized as someone whom people believed really existed. The belief in a literal "human" Jesus most likely emerged as eucharist rituals and theology developed around the concept of the "flesh" and "blood" of Christ and these concepts merged with allegorical narratives about the figure.
There are many important facts that support this conclusion.
The Gospel of Mark was the first story of Jesus that was written, and all others are dependent on it
The Gospel of Mark shows clear signs of being written as an allegorical fiction
Virtually every detail of the life of Jesus comes from "Old Testament" scriptures
Some of the details of the life of Jesus are based on mistranslations of the Hebrew scriptures
Jesus' crucifixion on Passover defies historical believability, yet makes perfect sense metaphorically
The Gospels make many claims that are contradicted by the historical record
The earliest writings about Jesus, from Paul and others, contain no details of his life
Many statements in the letters of Paul only make sense if Paul does not view Jesus Christ as a historical person
There is not one single writing from or about Jesus during his supposed lifetime
Philo, a prolific Jewish writer who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE, wrote extensively about the political and theological movements throughout the Mediterranean, and his views foreshadowed Christian theology, yet he never once wrote anything about Jesus. Not only this, but he actually wrote about political conflicts between the Jews and Pontius Pilate in Judea
All of the non-Christian references to Jesus can be shown to have either been introduced later by Christian scribes or were originally based on Christian claims
There is no evidence of any knowledge of a tomb of Jesus (empty or occupied) prior to the Gospel stories
There were many conflicting beliefs about who Jesus Christ was in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd centuries, including beliefs that he had never existed on earth "in the flesh"
The Catholics made purely theological arguments as to why Jesus Christ had to have existed "in the flesh"
None of these points are meant to stand on their own, but collectively they provide a very strong argument against the story of Jesus Christ being based on a real person.
It is important to note that we have one, and only one, source of information about the life of Jesus and that is the Christian Gospels. The Gospels are the sole source of information about this figure; everything that we "know" about "him" depends on these sources.
Tell that to a Christian who has been brainwashed to believe it's all true and historically confirmed...
I would rather pound my head against a brick wall. Hurts less!
all my family still believe - they're not happy that I don't and have written hubs about my deconversion etc. But can't reason them out of something they didn't reason themselves into (I certainly wasn't reasoned into it - I was indoctrinated as child).
No, it's not that you'd rather pound your head against a brick wall, the truth is you have no evidence to back your claims.
No one can prove that Jesus never existed. If you can, I'd like to see you do it.
I used to believe as those so called Christians and finally I learned that these so called Christian believe these myths because it is easier for them to hide behind the myth than accept accountability for there actions.
I.e...”God has forgiven me so I am freed of the sin" Or so and so hurt me so they will answer to God and his wrath will be great and harsh" all this is just a way for those so called Christians to hide
it's easier to blame some external force - sin, devil, satan etc or say god is in control
either way, no personal responsibility
Show or give me documented proof or evidence that jesus is a myth so i can look it up.
myth is not a falsehood. it is a symbolic story.
Thank you for your comment. The question I have is if the word myth is not a falsehood is it truth or false. From what I understand some post say Jesus is a myth. Now you said a myth is a symbolic story . A symbolic story of what please give me a clear answer. a myth by your definition is not falsehood so if its not false its true. Is Jesus a myth ( not a falsehood)
A truth can easily be hidden. All that YA gotta do is to fabricate SO, So, so many fabrications that anyone looking for truth gets tire of searching before they find THE right one.
One more question you said But myth does not mean lies, it has come to mean that . That what ? And you said But it does not mean that. If it does not mean that what does that mean ? clear understanding please.
the cultural usage in the 20th century is, if it's a myth, it's not true. it's not literal, but it's true. It's true in a symbolic sense.
That is a very convincing argument.
But let’s suppose for a moment that the stories concerning Jesus was true.
John in the book of Revelations speaks of a religion rising up out of the sea (Chapter 13) that will obscure the truth, while maintaining just enough truth that if it is possible, will fool the most knowledgeable of believers.
This "Beast" will pervert the teachings of the OT.
I restrict this statement to the OT because the NT did not exist until over two hundred years after John wrote of these things.(prophesy)
Why is it so difficult to believe that this prophesy has already been fulfilled?
This belief system that was in place in 1st century Judea, has been fragmented, and reconstructed into how many different denominations?
The best way to hide a truth is to create so many untruths that to find the truth is as searching for a needle in a haystack.
The truth does not need to be found. It is within us.
All we need to do is to take out the trash.
Disregard that which the world has taught us, concerning what scripture says; (this is almost impossible to do, but can be done) and read it for ourselves, beginning with the prophesy.
Firmly establish this as our foundation.
And THEN add to this, the testimonies of the disciples, and reframe from editing our previously established understandings.
We can not change the meanings of prophesy if they are from God!
But we can change our understanding of mankind’s testimony.
One thing that the theory of evolution does not into account.
There have been many discoveries of man made structures and even cities hundreds of feet below the surface of the sea;
And it wasn't monkeys that built them.
That suggests that advanced civilizations have exes ted long before this one.
Something happened in the past and life on earth had to start all over again.
Could all of those (supposed) myths have originated from those survivors from a past civilization, but by the time that they were capable of writing them down, due to the time that passes, some of the details had been misconstrued to some degree?
Just thinking out loud again.
Human made structures below the oceans surface does not mean anything except the oceans levels have risen and due to plate tectonics some areas of land have dropped. There are cities in Greece and other places that are now underwater.
If these were due to the shifting of plate tectonics, ?
Why are they scattered through out the bottom of the mediterranean sea? This still would have taken 100s of thousands of years.
I take this as further indication of there having been other advanced civilizations on earth before this one.
At the very least, this adds a curve unaccounted for in the theory of evolution.
That is all I'm saying.
Just imagine IF some catastrophic event happened today that wipes out; lets say 99 to 95%% of the earths population.
Lets say, ? the earth shifts on its axis.
And only 1% to 5% of the population survives the initial event. Out of these only the most physically fit and most ruthless will adapt.
Continuation of the intellectual aspects of mankind will be last on the list of MUST DOs.
In just a 1000 years or so,
WE become a MYTH. ?????
That is very interesting. I decided to do some more research and check these out!
http://weburbanist.com/2007/09/12/under … the-world/
I missed this.. I probably do this more often than I realize. Not seeing or commenting on comments made back at me.
So So sorry.
That information is very interesting. I would speculate that some of these ruins are much older than they suspect.
I go along with the "Myths" of the Hopi Indians being absolutely true as to there having been (I think) five previous advanced civilizations having been wiped off the face of the earth. Not completely erased as these photos show.
And what little information we have of their existences have all been classified as MYths and folklore.
Many things that are thought to be FALSE might be true but should in fact just be reconstructed.(rethunked)
Again so sorry for missing comments that are made back at me that I miss ... to everyone that I have done that to.
If there were advanced civilizations like us before, dont you think we might have noticed their satellites in the Space & footprints on the moon or mars? Dont tell me you think they wiped out all those evidence from space right before their natural destruction from earth.
Rather noticing some vague soil structures or stone structures under sea, dont you think we might have noticed metallic building or other structures which would confirm their extinction?
The lack of mark on space is a great tool to ensure that no other civilization reached our level of advancement before. The rest are exaggeration of actual findings.
You missed the most obvious one of all !!!
If I think that advanced civilizations have been here before; Why was there any oil left here on earth for us to pump out of the ground? This is as logical as the things that you mentioned above.
What makes anyone think that they would HAVE to develop along the same lines technologically?
We, if we last another 50 years we will have to develop another energy source. what makes you think that they didn't start out using this NEW energy sourse in the first place,
Do you think that scientific technology had but one trail to go down?
As a planet we have chosen our path
Why do you think that they would have advanced upon the same lines as we did.
I did not mention oil because I was aware that they might have used different energy source. I mentioned space & satellite, because it is obvious that an advanced race would have gone UP there to search & explore the universe in search for knowledge. I guess u didnt get my point.
It actually does not matter what energy source or scientific method they had used. The bottom line of my post was that an advanced civilization should have left some remarkable mark for us. If they were really smart, they would have explored moon & other parts of space. They would have built metallic structures rather than stone buildings.
Extraordinary claims requires Extraordinary Evidence!...Just give us Ordinary Evidence to begin with, if you have any in your pocket!
My boyfriend would tell you that sliens built those underwater cities. lol.
If I might offer a different thought to the Cities under the Med...Mount Vesuvius. This Volcano has been erupting on and off for quite some time...it had a major eruption in 79AD that wipe out a good portion of the surrounding area...Just a thought..
That is true. There are probably many reasons for these ancient cities to exist hundreds of feet and even miles under the sea level. So far these have only verified up to about 3000 feet as far as I know, but many more structures have been discovered all over the Mediterranean suspected to be man made.
The point I was making is that advanced civilizations have been discovered that existed long before what historians previously thought. Scientists have to rethink much of what they thought that they KNEW as facts.
Very True...That is the interesting thing about science...it is willing to change it's stand on something when evidence is presented that conflicts or verifies its findings...the same can't be said about other things...
I do give credit to science in every regard.
When we recognize it for what it is.
There is just so much information that any single scientist can not process the relativity of these different sciences.
But at least they are trying.
So very true...Scientists are always attempting to answer the questions that so many people still have today...including if Jesus was in fact a real person or just the effigy of a newly form religion
IF civilization were to survive another 100 years; at the rate we are advancing in technology and knowledge of the universe, I think very little of what we believe as absolute truth will remain.
As individuals go so goes society.
I have noticed that about every five years, I review how stupid I was five years ago.
And ask myself, "How could I have thought that or done that. I tell myself, " NOW I know the truth" , BUT now I have come to dread finding out, in another five years, how wrong I used to be.
I think that society as a whole does the same thing.
I do the same things...LOL...think about this.. we are trying to find alternate energy means.. eco-friendly, green methods...if we do away with using oil and various other current energy method that we use.. in 100 years wouldn't we also kind of look like we wasn't as advanced as we actually are...interesting to think that advanced technologies in energy and other fields are reverting back to nature as a means of creating them...
There is nothing fantastic about those cities underneath the sea. Their architecture is in line with the architecture of man.
Keep in mind that Christianity is supernatural. Immaculate conception, Jesus performing miracles, God creating heaven and Earth, the Red Sea parting, a talking burning bush. And, the coup de grace, Armageddon. The list of other-worldly happenings in Christian teachings is endless. Christians who believe in everlasting life through Jesus do so through blind faith. There is no proof of God or biblical lore and may never be while we're alive. Archaeologists have uncovered some documentation, however. The supernatural realm is beyond anything we have experienced on Earth. Take it for what it is . . . or not.
Take it for what it is by all means - but don't slip in the untrue statement that "archaeologists have uncovered some documentation" this is a typical tactic of the misinformation surrounding the whole business
Archeologist have found the sites of ancient cities based on the writings of the Bible. You can look that up if your interested.
In the Bible God told the people during the Exodus period to be circumcised on the 8th day. Why? Because Vitamin K production necessary for clotting doesn't develop until after seven days.
He told them how to quarantine themselves to prevent spreading infection. He gave them rules to live by and the government we use today in our country, the USA.
He told them a Messiah would come and when to expect Him.
Jesus came right on time based on the prophecy in Daniel.
When Jesus arose from the dead He was seen by 500 witnesses. The gospels make note of this.
Saying Jesus didn't live because the writings of the events after His death doesn't disprove His life.
People are still writing about the events of WWII and that was 70 years ago. Does that mean it didn't happen? No. Complilations of data from a given time are being studied and correlations are being made based on that information.
The Apostles didn't get together to write their histories. They wrote them at separate times and others who knew them copied them and compiled this information to pass on to other.
The ability to write and record information during this period was not the same as today. There was no printing press. Everything was hand copied by scribes. These were important people because they could write.
The fact that the Apostles were able to write and record the information of their knowledge of Jesus is remarkable. They met Jesus when He began His earthly ministry. They would only know facts related to them by Jesus, Mary or James His brother through Mary.
In Jewish tradition a man could not be a priest until he reaches 30. This was to give him time to reach maturity and wisdom in their faith. Jesus came as the High Priest of Earth when He reached the right age to begin teaching the good news called the Gospel. He came to seek and to save that which was lost. Earth and man's dominion were lost to satan in the garden of Eden. Jesus came as the kinsman Redeemer to take back our inheritance. (Read Ruth for this explanation.)
Jesus came to tell about God The Father and to give us Eternal Life. Eternal Life was what we lost in the Garden of Eden. To do this He became the substitutionary repository for our sin, He took our sin, bore it in His body and died by His choice on the cross. When He died and was buried in the cave, our sins were buried with Him. He made restitution for our sins.
All we have to do to have Eternal Life is to believe He did this for us, repent and confess our sins, agree that we are sinners and that there is nothing we could do, no works we could do to save ourselves other than to trust in His work on the cross and confess Him as Savior and Lord.
He made it so simple a child could do this. Being a follower of Jesus is not easy. He gave us two commandments. To love God with all your mind, body, and spirit and to love your neighbor as yourself.
Once you decide you are going to follow Jesus and make a commitment you will be under attack from evil. You are safe as long as they have you in their thrall, but when you leave you are going to be bombarded by temptation.
I believe what I have written.
You believe what you have written.
So, who is right?
Only time will tell and maybe your eternal destination.
Of course your bible is based on real places - so is Sherlock Holmes adventures, 007 and even coyote chases his chicken or whatever around the simulation of the real desert and canyons.
There is no corroborative evidence of the handiwork of any god - no corroborative evidence of your jesus. So that makes it a myth based on superstition and tales. It could of course still be true, but then maybe an 007 is really running around the place.
The argument is about evidence for jesus, and the riducilous fabrication of creationism - claiming any kind of scientific 'evidence' for any event of the bible old or new testaments is a lie - there is none for any of the stories - except some of the background places. Nobody wrote any of your biblical stuff that Paul invented based on his unsucessful attempts at association with Peter and the rest - long after the events.
You can no more prove my statements as fabrication than I yours.
You see how fruitless your arguements are.
Any claim for creation based on the Bible is as valid as any by Evolution. There were no eye witnesses to either event. So it just comes down to faith in what you 'want' to believe.
I choose the Bibles story over billions of years of rocks finally evolving into a human.
You have no evidence Jesus did not exist.
I gave my view just as you gave yours.
You can say your piece, I said mine and never shall the two sides meet.
Diana, It's odd how those who doesn't believe in the bible can overlook true information. If they would only look it up, they would see that Archeologists have found the sites of ancient cities based on the writings of the bible.
Well, that's the problem, you see. If you don't put up evidence to substantiate your claim and just tell everyone to go do your homework for you, then the claim is empty and without credibility.
What's interesting though, is that when we actually do the homework, we find folks like Albright did in fact make attempts at aligning archeological finds to biblical scriptures only to have his ideals refuted simply because archeological finds did not support biblical scriptures.
Many have tried and many are still trying, Christian or Muslim or whatever religion has it's own group of apologetics who propagate oodles of religious conclusions to scientific finds. Some cults even go so far as to open creationism museums showing dinosaurs and men frolicking together.
Yes, I'm sure you do believe what you wrote, and you're quite free to do so. However, your belief is exactly just that, a belief:
"All we have to do to have Eternal Life is to believe He did this for us..."
We can easily see who might be right or who might be wrong by casting some doubt on what it is you believe is right, for example:
"Jesus arose from the dead"
In other words, you believe people can rise from the dead? That a man could have withstood death from torturous beatings, being nailed to a cross and stuck with a spear, to be left alone for a few days only to stand up and walk away. This is what you think is right?
Jesus arose from the dead, that's right.
If he were just a man, he could not do so. But Jesus is Emmanuel, God with us. He came to be a servant on His first visit to teach of the Kingdom which will come.
He is coming again in the air to call His bride the believers to be with Him before the Tribulation.
The next time He comes to planet Earth, He will come to rule and reign.
He is not a man, but God who came to live with man for a short period of time.
He is the Creator. He created all we see. How can the finite understand the infinite.
When Jesus died on the cross His last words were 'It is finished'. He completed the work God The Father sent Him to do. He was the blood sacrific to atone for the sins of the world. He only had to die once and shed His blood to cover the sins of those who would believe in Him, to them He gives everlasting life.
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/20 … richo.aspx
God is all powerful, omniscient, and omnipresent. He is not human, He is supernatural beyond anything we can imagine. He created us and can do with us as He pleases.
This is what I think and believe.
We all have belief systems.
You would not go out in your car everyday if you believed each time you drove you'd have an accident. At least let me say that I would not.
I believe when I go out driving in my vehicle, I will return safe and sound to my home.
You've told me what you don't believe.
So, what exactly do you believe?
You seem to be saying that because I check my brakes regularly and have them serviced when needed and replace the parts that need replacing when they are worn, and they have worked properly for years - the fact that I trust my brakes to work as needed is the same as believing total garbage about men being god and coming back to life?
Now - realistically - if you cannot see the difference between trusting brakes that have been properly maintained and serviced - and some Invisible Super Being becoming His own son to murder himself to save you - I would make a couple of suggestions.
a. Be a little more honest with yourself and accept that these two "belief systems," are not the same at all and you are simply defending an untenable belief (I know this is hard for you because being honest is not a Christian value) or
b. Get some help.
Good Grief! I am under attack for believing something different from you.
Know what? The Bible tells us this will happen.
I never mentioned brakes, can't you read?
My belief is mine and I don't find it untenable at all.
Does it make you feel good to attack people who believe in God because you don't?
Good luck in life. I bet you don't have any friends.
No - you are not under attack. I was simply pointing out that I trust I will not have an accident because I maintain my car. And this "belief" that I will not have an accident has everything to do with having done the maintenance - and nothing to do with blind faith.
I am not attacking you. I simply suggested that you be more honest with yourself. That is all.
If you wish to take that as an attack in order to defend your untenable, irrational beliefs - that is your business. It would be healthier and less likely to cause conflict if you were honest with yourself though. But - I understand why you prefer conflict instead.
Yes - the bible is pretty clear on what will happen:
1. Go around telling peopel what they should do and cause fights over irrational beliefs.
2. People hate it when you do this and will respond.
3. This is an attack on your love for Jesus.
Still - you think my "belief" that I will not have an accident when I drive my car is exactly the same as believing this nonsense about the suicidal god-man?
Maintenance of a car and having an accident are different.
One does not negate the other.
Dear me. So - believing I am less likely to have an accident and trusting that I will not because I have done all I can do to maintain my car, am well trained and careful when driving and believing in the god-man suicide thing are exactly the same then?
My irrational belief that I am not going to have a certain accident is the same as your irrational belief in the man-god suicide thing. And this some how validates your belief?
Because everyone believes something.
And there is no rational basis for believing anything.
Therefore your belief in the man god is just as valid as my belief I am probably not going to have a fatal accident the next time I drive.
As I said - I do not expect you to go the honesty route. I irrationally believed it may be worth a try though - so you got me there.
Don't you think this is avery nasty and unchristian like thing to say to anyone. Just because mark does not believe in your fairy stories is no need to attack him in this way. VERY unchristian - but I am sure your mythical jesus still loves you.
You know a lot about God.
Yet you seem to know so much about Him that you just spouted the long paragraph above. This is absurd.
For an omniscient, all powerful, omnipresent God that we can't even imagine-as you quoted above-you seem to be imagining plenty
So, you believe that people can rise from the dead. In other words, you believe in zombies.
Then, if he wasn't a man, he didn't die and you were fooled into believing he did die.
That is all just mythical beliefs that have no bearing on reality.
Yes, in other words, he never died and you were fooled.
Yes, you believe like most other believers, no different. It would appear you were indoctrinated into this belief system.
No, we do not all have belief systems.
Trying to compare the condition of your car to the fantasies and myths of your belief system are laughable and have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Your car is real, your gods are imagined.
Unlike you, I don't embrace the myths and superstitions of the Bronze Age. In other words, I don't have a belief system. Instead, I have an education.
Is that really true? Do you believe that God doesn't exist because their is no
evidence or because that is what you wish? Because wouldn't an existence of a Supreme Being mean that we will be held accountable for our actions by the Diety and thus those who want to live a self-centured heidonistic life baulk at the idea of God?
This I don't believe in God because Christians have done blah, blah, blah or because there is so much suffering in the world is just a ruse for not being honest with yourself and admitting that you want to create your own rules-you don't want to be responsible to anyone therefore you CHOOSE not to believe.
Remember that for years, some historians doubted that Pilate and Caiaphas were actual historical figures - until archaeological evidence was found.
Don't think so - they were well recorded figures in Roman documents and their existence has never been disputed as for as I am aware.
Do some research. Both figures were, indeed, doubted by many. Josephus and Tacitus mention Pilate, just as they also mention Jesus. But since Pilate and Jesus lived before Tacitus and Josephus, some historians didn't believe the evidence was sound since it was hearsay. Firm proof was not discovered about Pilate until 1961.
There is all kinds of historic written evidence that Jesus existed, just like writtten evidence of Juiius Ceasar existed. People don't dedate that Julis or any other famous figure existed.
There is no historic evidence of Jesus's existence. There is a difference in the caliber of evidence.
There isn't one bit of historical evidence for the eixtence of Christ. There might only be 8 o 9 for the existence of Ceasar, but it's 8 or 9 more than Christ.
You need to define evidence.
uuhhh...Tim...uhh is this evidence a matter of official recorded history or just an assumption. and would you care to direct one in the direction of such evidence?
Is not jesus a myth?
I think you are wrong.
They deny historicity of Jesus god or son of god, who died on the cross and was resurrect from the dead and ascended to heaven fearing his enemies lest they again put him on the Cross.
They don't deny and they can never deny historicity of Jesus the man, son of man/woman called Mary, cousin of John son of Zeccariah and Elizabeth.
paarsurrey "They don't deny and they can never deny historicity of Jesus the man"
who won't deny?
may be a blind believer won't but anybody who care to look at the facts, any body who cares to think will deny the historicity of jesus.
but if you mean stories were written in there names then nobody can deny the historicity of Jesus, nor Zeus, nor asclepius, nor imhotep, osiris, nor krishna, nor ahura mazda ......
The bible scares the hell out of people, that fear makes us believe in Jesus but he might be a myth.
That other energy source would certainly have opened up a different spectrum of possibilities, or pathways of research.
When we further our research into alternate energy resources, what we find will open up other pathways for us to follow.
All that I am saying is that had we went in a different direction we would not have come to the same place.
To think that we know the things that we would have learned had we gone down a different path is foolish.
We just do not know what we do not know. Ya know?
Yeah, but how do you know? Maybe we would have taken a different path and ended up in the same place.
That in 99% of all cases that would not happen.
That would be like saying that if your mother had married a different man, you would have turned out the same and you would have had the same choices to make concerning your life.
There are a hundred instances in your life that if you had made a different decision, (even small decisions) your life would have come to a totally different conclusion.
Would you say that 2000 years ago we were already destined to drill oil and turn it into gasoline? That the age of the computer age was unavoidable? Or the atom bomb?
I believe that as individuals we have a host of potential futures to choose from, and this is true also on a global scale.
The end of the story is inevitable, but the details of how we get there and how it ends is up to us.
Jesus as mentioned in Quran is a reality; Jesus of the Christians is a mythical creation of Paul and the Church, such a person never existed.
Jesus as mentioned in Quran is a reality
Jesus of the Christians is a mythical
at least the gospels were written only after a 100 years of jesus period while quran a 600. naturally the authors of quran must know about jesus better!!!!
I believe Jesus was an actual person but not as the stories describe him. I believe the events happened in the stories about him are pretty much embellished. They happened but not the way these stories describe them.
I totally don't understand that. Not to be mean or anything, but it makes no sense to me.
If you mean that people were beaten, tortured and publicly crucified for crimes they never committed, sure, why not?
If you mean that people were beaten, tortured and publicly crucified for crimes they never committed... and then rose from the dead, I would have to agree with you.
Quran does not mention any mythical and embellished stories about Jesus; Quran describes the real person Jesus, a man son of Mary.
Question: "Did Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ?"
Answer: Typically, when this question is asked, the person asking qualifies the question with “outside of the Bible.” We do not grant this idea that the Bible cannot be considered a source of evidence for the existence of Jesus. The New Testament contains hundreds of references to Jesus Christ. There are those who date the writing of the Gospels to the second century A.D., more than 100 years after Jesus' death. Even if this were the case (which we strongly dispute), in terms of ancient evidences, writings less than 200 years after events took place are considered very reliable evidences. Further, the vast majority of scholars (Christian and non-Christian) will grant that the Epistles of Paul (at least some of them) were in fact written by Paul in the middle of the first century A.D., less than 40 years after Jesus' death. In terms of ancient manuscript evidence, this is extraordinarily strong proof of the existence of a man named Jesus in Israel in the early first century A.D.
It is also important to recognize that in A.D. 70, the Romans invaded and destroyed Jerusalem and most of Israel, slaughtering its inhabitants. Entire cities were literally burned to the ground. We should not be surprised, then, if much evidence of Jesus' existence was destroyed. Many of the eyewitnesses of Jesus would have been killed. These facts likely limited the amount of surviving eyewitness testimony of Jesus.
Considering that Jesus' ministry was largely confined to a relatively unimportant area in a small corner of the Roman Empire, a surprising amount of information about Jesus can be drawn from secular historical sources. Some of the more important historical evidences of Jesus include the following:
The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).
Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.” One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.”
Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).
Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.
The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.
Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.
Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.
Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.
In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).
There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.
Recommended Resource: The Case for the Real Jesus by Lee Strobel.
I'm sorry, but the reference in the Talmud that you mentioned cannot refer to the Christian Jesus . . . unless the Christian bible contains some serious errors.
I think what people forget is the sheer number of people running around for several hundred years claiming to be various types of messianic figures.
As for Josephus, well . . . I'll leave alone the questions over authenticity and just point out that according to the Christian timeline Jesus was already dead before Josephus was even born.
I think after 2000 years we should just agree to disagree. We've all heard each other's arguments, all too often at the point of a sword.
There are many critiques and refutations of Strobel's case. Here are a few of the conclusions drawn from those critiques:
1. Strobel did not demonstrate the credibility of any Gospel, canonical or not.
2. Strobel did not demonstrate that scribal changes to the Biblical texts are insignificant.
3. Strobel did not demonstrate that the Resurrection of Jesus is the best explanation for the evidence.
4. Strobel did not demonstrate that Christianity is free from significant outside influence.
5. Strobel did not demonstrate that Jesus fulfilled any prophecies.
6. Strobel did not demonstrate that the person of Jesus was at all reflective of orthodox Christian beliefs.
The account about Jesus as mentioned in Quran was a real person; the Bible courtesy Paul and the Church made Jesus a mythical person.
3. Strobel did not demonstrate that the Resurrection of Jesus is the best explanation for the evidence.
Jesus never died on the Cross in the first place; so there is no question of his resurrection from the dead. Yes, he was delivered in a near-dead position from the Cross; treated for his injuries by his friends and he migrated from Judea.
Sure Paar, people were let down from the cross! The soldiers themself would have been killed had they allowed anyone to survive! Your argument on this issue is a farce!
I agree with libby. Also, have you considered evidence like in http://hubpages.com/hub/Carbon-14-Datin … d-of-Turin ?
I laughed out loud when I saw the Turin shroud. And the fact that it has been replicated? Well - liars for jesus will deny truth - of course.
It is against the HP rules to post a link to your own work, Dee. Unless it is on the Extreme Hub Makeover thread, of course.
Josephus was not a contemporary historian. He was born in the year 37 C.E., several years after Jesus' alleged death. There is no way he could have known about Jesus from his own personal experience. At best, he could have recorded the activities of the new cult of Christianity, and what they said about their crucified leader. So, even if Josephus wrote about Jesus, it is not a credible source. (Source: http://freethought.mbdojo.com/josephus.html)
writers after first century have heard from christians and just quoted from him. the question is why no CONTEMPORARY historians heard of christ?
Some people say that the Holocaust is a myth.
I wasn't alive when it happened.
I was born a few years later.
My dad told me some things about it.
When I tell my grand children things that my dad told me about it. That story should carry just a little weight.
True, not as much as my dad telling it himself, but if I tell it exactly as he told it? That should mean something.
'The Jesus of the Gospels is an artificial creation, a collective work of art who evolved through the combined consciousness of two generations of Christian worship.'
– A. N. Wilson (Paul, p144)
''Whether Jesus ever actually existed has long been debated. The argument (very well documented) is that there is absolutely no corroborating evidence of his existence in documents other than highly suspect Christian sources.'
– Riane Eisler (The Chalice & the Blade, p122)
Composer2005 wrote ...
So, even if Josephus wrote about Jesus, it is not a credible source.
- - - - - - - -
This seems to always be the case.
When either side of this debate presents any evidence; the other side says ... "that is not a credible source."
"that is not a credible source. "
"that is not a credible source. "
"that is not a credible source. "
I think that if we were to gather one person from each group, for intelligent conversation (Not debate) who were not dogmatically convinced that they had the one and only correct answer, "The truth" might be found.
Atheists profess many 1/2 truths.
Spiritualists profess a different 1/2 truth.
Religionists also profess 1/2 truths
No one has all the answers.
If a computer program were created that can compile all of these 1/2 truths that are not totally contradictory into one concept, We would be a lot closer to THE truth.
As it is, we look at the evidence that we accept, and overstate the certainty of our conclusions.
Kinda like; You put chocolate on my peanut butter !
NO ! NO ! NO !
You put peanut butter on my chocolate !
The debate goes on, and no one wins !
If one does not accept Jesus as the son of God.
If one does not accept the miraculous feats that he demonstrated
Then he still has to be considered an extraordinary human being
since in the history of human beings he is the only person
that died blameless of all crimes/sins. Not even his staunchest enemies could accuse him of doing any wrong.
So he was put to death over a trumped up charge of blasphemy
meaning they could not prove that he was not the son of God.
jesus is not a myth, he is a real person, u will be surprise to find out that the events of the new testament really took place and can be found in manuscript attestation recorded by historians, real people who lived during that time. and they mention that this character Jesus of Nazareth lives and walk this earth.such records can be found in the work of
Herodotus- written in 488-428 BC
Thucydides- c, 460-400 BC
Tacitus- AD 100
Livy's roman history 59 BC- AD 17
There are over 5,000 Greek manuscripts and 10,000 in Latin.
check it out
Livy did not mention jesus, and none of the others are contemporary. There are no contemporary manuscripts. None. You have swallowed misinformation from liars for jesus. Check it out dude. Please at least do some research before swallowing this nonsense.
Tell us, Mark, what research you've done. Or, my apologies if you've written it else where. If so, please point me to it for I'd like to look.
Did you even look at those dates? How can there be accounts of Jesus written by Herodotus hundreds of years before the alleged Jesus was even supposed to exist?
I think there is little doubt that Jesus existed. He was a real human being. Some of the stories about him may be myth, as there are contradictions in the New Testament, such as those surrounding the story of his birth. Also the beliefs that Christians have about Jesus were developments made over the centuries, and often have little basis in biblical accounts.
Jesus is no MYTH..... just make sure your are record so historically we can trace you back after your death....
All who believes Jesus Christ is a Myth they are the myth and i feel pityful for you. You gave over your ears to gabbage and people who usually comes up with those philosophies knows much better. But they are just looking for some sought of recognition by fools who may follow on.
That's my view
There are many here who would feel pity for you, being that it seems as though you are a firm believer in Jesus Christ. I dont believe condecention need be fit into the conversation dear. You call critical and analyticle thought garbage, but all i hear you saying is that he existed and your reason believeing that being "because he did." Id keep a civil tongue if i were someone who had zero evidance besides the invisible. Thats just my opinion.
So called scientific facts have been proven wrong many of times so the argument about scientific facts are indeed questionable. At least a lot of them are.
All I know is that this world seems to be changing for the worse. So what is in store for us all?
I find it really quite disturbing whenever I read the angry comments of some Christians, who are so dogmatic in their certainty that they are right, and that all who have views which differ, even slightly to their own, shall have the fires of hell waiting for them as punishment. As an atheist, I don't feel the need to prove to others that my point of view is correct, and I think we can learn from each other, believer and non-believer alike. Some Christians frighten me. I wish they could be more like Christ.
There are no comments from angry christians when someone share a different view. From what I have observed, it's mainly some of the atheists who dislike christians and mock the believer's faith. Not trying to scare you, but the bible speaks about hell. Would you desire for someone to tell you if your house is on fire? Of course you would. If you don't believe hell exist, then you have no reason to be afraid. It depends on what you mean by learning from each other. Atheists will never convince me that there is no God. We all have a choice to believe what we want.
Other religions speak about hell, too. But, Christians ignore those other religions threats.
Would you desire for someone to tell you there are other gods and other religions that claim you will be judged by their gods and perhaps may wind up in their hell?
We know you wouldn't.
Will anyone be able to ever convince you other gods exist or is that a choice you will make to ignore them?
Beelzedad, There is only one living, and true God. (Jeremiah10:10) But the Lord is the true God, he is the living God, an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
I think the name God first revealed himself to Moses as says it all. I Am. Pretty much says what He thinks of other claims.
LOL! So, one mythical being revealed himself to another mythical being thus confirming both their existences.
But he didn't say "They Ain't" did he? Or are you merely assuming?
I believe that was implied. But that's just my belief. Somehow,i fear you have a different take on it. I am pretty sure the Stooge gods weren't on His list of imposters to worry about at the time though.
They are his uncles. He's still learning to get along with his creations without having to destroy them on occasion. But he knows better than to mess with a Stoogist. Actually, Noah and his family were Stoogists too, but the Christians always claim them as their own. But you really can't blame them, can you?
Woop, woop, woop!-
Yes. I believe He still has to say One Mississippi, Two Mississippi every time your name comes up. You're still around though, so any anger issues are obviously Old Testament.
Yep! The New Testament part II makes belief in evolution okay. They figured evolution would be accepted by everyone by now but they didn't take in consideration the stubbornness of the fundies.
I tried to tell 'em!
That's interesting. I see proof of evolution in chapter one of Genesis. Your point proves that God is good. He said it again for those who didn't get it the first time.
All of them are basically harmless. Their creations however, are a different story.
Whoosh. That's the sound of your last post going over my head.
Gods are harmless unless folks take them seriously. Better?
In a way, you may be right. I don't think He takes anyone seriously that doesn't return the favor. Which makes it good for all of us, really. We all get to do what we want. Here and now. And I don't think He's going to hold it over your head that you didn't believe. There's enough unfairness in the world to give rise to doubt. You will have to explain the Stooges though, I think.
I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him? (Ecclesiastes 3:18,22)
Seems to be saying that death is the end to me.
Muldanian, I am not trying to anger you. I am only providing the biblical facts in the bible. ( John3:36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Another scripture is John3:16. Death does not have to be the end for you or no one. Matthew 24:29-31 explains the second coming of Jesus. All those who died in faith in Christ shall rise from the dead and they will have eternal life.
Honestly, do you really care? Does it (the reality or myth of Jesus) work for you? You are going to twist your brain into a million knots arguing faith to the faithful!!!
Bottom-Line remains that not a single self acclaimed christian has provided a shred of legitimate evidence for their story book jesus.
Define legitimate evidence, is it the written words of witnesses, a picture,an artifact, written records of genealogy, a fossil. Tell me what it is for you, and we can go from there. I'm here to help.
The faithfull are at peace with their convictions while the nonbeliever has none and that is why they hang around Christian forums trying to find what is hidden from them. All of us will try to help you because you are here and because you are here that tells me you are serching. If you were at peace and content in your nonbelievers world, you would ignore us and stay among others such as yourselves. Yet you are here listening to the voice of God as spoken by his people.
Troy C.posted 4 hours ago in reply to this
Define legitimate evidence, is it the written words of witnesses, a picture,an artifact, written records of genealogy, a fossil. Tell me what it is for you, and we can go from there. I'm here to help.
There are at least two ways you self acclaimed story book jesus believers can attempt to support your cause.
Let's start with -
1. Present every scrap of what you think legitimately supports your cause and we'll examine it and we can go from there. I'm here to help.
Troy, we know all you have is the bible as the source of your beliefs. Unless there is something more you can offer, then you really can't help, can you?
Have you ever known something to be true and then open a book and read someone confirming that which you already knew.
That happens to a lot of people all of the time. all the time.
So, what you're saying, Jerami, is that you knew everything there was to know about Jesus long before ever hearing about him and then after reading the bible, lo and behold, it was all written down there confirming everything you already knew?
Do you know how to read?
It doesn't appear so!
If you think that I said what you say that I said?
You have a very serious learning impediment.
OR were you just adulterating what I said so you can argue with it?
Why don’t you attempt to read my comment again?
See if you can understand it as written.
I’ll give you a clue. I said exactly what I meant to say, No more and no less than what I intended to say..
I attempt to do that quite frequently.
If you still do not understand what I said? I don't know what to tell Ya.
Not believing in Jesus is not new. Few one believed in Jesus before he arrived, few one believed in Jesus while he was here and no one was at his tumb when he arose on third day so no one believed in him then.
Same thing....just a different day.
Nice discussion. Jesus lived and there are historical evidences to support that. However big question is was he really son of God and answer is no..
Composer responds: Present every scrap of what you think legitimately supports your cause and we'll examine it and we can go from there. I'm here to help.
ahmar2 wrote: . . . . Jesus lived and there are historical evidences to support that.
Composer responded: Present every scrap of what you think legitimately supports your cause and we'll examine it and we can go from there. I'm here to help.
You made a bold and unjustified claim, now please provide your alleged supportive evidence for that bold and unjustified claim instead of cowering in your current pit of delusion hoping others might bail you out?
Care to state the "historical evidences" you claim exists?
The Koran or Qur'an The sacred text of Islam, divided into 114 chapters, or suras: revered as the word of God, dictated to Muhammad by the archangel Gabriel, and accepted as the fundation of Islamic law, religion, culture, and politics.
Now the Koran, the "Bible" of another religion says that Jesus excisted and was a prophet. I have heard that he is the most quoted Prophet in the Koran. I have not not read this so if I was misinformed I'm sure you will let me know. Jesus is real.
Another interesting fact is that Gabriel dictated this to Muhammed.
Also,how can anyone say that Jesus was not the son of God, you talk as if you were there. If you have no proof to the contrary you are just giving personal opinion of which everybody has one. Faith is the key ingredient to belief. Like i stated in another thread you will believe almost anything man tells you, with no proof, but you wont believe God with the proof he has presented to you The Bible says that "without faith it is impossible to please God" You had better start praying for faith..
And another interesting fact is he foamed at the mouth, literally, after each visit from this so called angel! You have to remember, Jesus had already came and gone by the time Muhammad came into the picture! People had heard of Jesus... he wanted to start a new religion! He wanted all religions to come together to his one and him be over them all! When the Jews and Christians wouldn't listen to him and called him a false prophet... he changed his "nice peaceful" talk of them in his Qu'ran and started saying to lay in wait and kill them..both jews and Christians! Then because he changed that he also said that if a later verse contradicts an earlier verse then use the later verse.... lol.. yes I believe all that crap!
It's amazing how no one will vote for a president who contradicts himself, but they jump on the bandwagon quickly if it is the determiner of their salvation? How does that work?
I do want to add that faith is a great thing. It's wonderful to have faith in many things as Troy stated up there, but without works it is void. I was debating with a man today about the subject and he says, "If an apple tree does not produce apples, does that mean it's not an apple tree? No it just has a problem." My response was, "True, but I also remember a passage about a fig tree that beared no fruit and the Lord cursed it and it died." My point being that you can hope for a tomato plant to grow big tomatoes, but if you don't get out there and water and fertilize it, you chances of having bigger tomatoes are less. Is this not correct?
As asked previously, care to state the "historical evidences" you claim exist? One ancient novel backing another proves nothing. And you do indeed need to read the Koran. There is one Muslim here who will tell you Jesus didn't die on the cross at all, but was taken down alive and recovered from his ordeal.
It does make sense, so his bible must be more accurate than the King James version favored by most fundies. Got anything substantial to offer?
The botoom-line for all alleged ' holy books ' is that their combined legitimate evidence that they contain the words of a god given to men, remains a constant zero!
Gods peace to all the saints here, may he continue to shower his grace upon you and strengthen you as you go about his work, amen
Today was a good day. I only worked 11 hours and managed to get a workout in. But most importantly I studied the Bible for over an hour. It was on audio Bible but it was wonderful as I had already studied those scriptures before. Now imagine my surprise when I come here and the first thing I see is that someone commented on one of my hubs, but it was not a comment: it was hate mail and he misquoted something I had written. These people must realize that I dont read their comments, they are wasting their time on me, God is with me. God is protecting me. God is empowering me. I can do nothing on my own. So when I start to read a comment and it is detrimental to my spirit, he will shut my eyes to it, this person took all this time to write me to no avail. Remember the old saying "garbage in, garbage out." Be careful what you read saints.
Lastly, the definition of the Koran I posted here last night was from the dictionary not me, I found it enlightening to find out where the Koran Originated. I wll have to look more into that.. Even more proof.
God bless you all Troy C.
P.S. I just read something above from Fenixfan and it was so true in James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
And the way to fertilze your faith is with the word of God so that it may produce works in you.
88Troy C. wrote . . . . . These people must realize that I dont read their comments,
Your double minded self contradiction -
88Troy C." also wrote . . . . So when I start to read a comment . . . .
a) You DON'T READ COMMENTS
b) You DO READ COMMENTS
Good morning Saints,I hope everyone slept well, I know I did but when I woke this morning God had put a message in my heart.
The message was not to be angry with the unsaved here, but to pray for them. Even when they mock and persecute Jesus. We must be like Jesus in this manner, because even as he hung on the cross he prayed; Luke 23:34 Father forgive them: for they know not what they do.
If he can forgive after what he went through so too can we forgive them now.
Always remember who the real enemy is.
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against pricipalities,against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Love to you all and I do mean all, Troy C.
It's interesting to note that believers always seem to have enemies of their faith, whether they believe them to be real, like those who don't share their particular faith, or unreal, like the imps and demons that continuously swirl around us in endless battle with their spiritual selves.
Seems like living in a constant state of paranoia.
Good morning fellow Stoogists, I know you all had a restful sleep. By the grace of Shemp we are so lucky not to be constantly judging other people like the deluded Jesus freaks are compelled to do.
It must be horrible to be forced to try and frighten children with threats of being tortured for eternity by a murderous deity. Be thankful for these folks as they are and excellent example for not letting your children be brainwashed by superstitious, uneducated, narrow minded, people.
Woop, woop, woop, and may Moe bless you!
I'm afraid you're wrong, oh prophet of the slapstick gods. I've seen the old documentaries on your deities. They're treatment of each other is appalling. If they can be so callous to one another, what hope would a believer have. None,i fear. I'll keep my God,thank you very much.
But at least they do not create and populate a planet and then decide to murder all women, all babies, both born and unborn, and all the men and animals by drowning. You'd figure an omnipotent being would plan things to work out a mite better.
Yes, the Stooges take out their frustrations on each other, not on helpless mortals. But if you like petty, self centered deities, you have made the right choice for you.
Wow, that was a mouthful. I think perhaps those who believe have a deeper understanding than that. Maybe not, but if that's how you see it then I can certainly see why you would be angry about it.
LOL Deeper understanding = denial.
I can see why you attack anyone who gainsays your beliefs. This is called "cognitive dissonance."
A lot of believers - such as yourself - suffer from it and will attack anything that does not agree with their untenable belief system.
"just curious" = "has the answers" LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Great! It will be good for you to explain which sins the unborn babies and children committed. And the animals too! I suppose your god couldn't merely make the wicked mortals simply die without going to so much trouble of slaughtering all of the animals too. But perhaps flooding the entire earth was more entertaining to such a vengeful bored deity.
The Stooges abhorred this event, by the way. The cries of the drowning babies and innocent animals saddened them greatly.
It is good to know you believe your gods to be merciful. I can't explain the flood. When you look at it it from the viewpoint of those not on the boat, it does sound horrific. When you look at it from Noah's you see hope that God will always provide a way to save you. I will think on what you said. I do believe that God is happy when those who trust him face contradictions squarely. To come to a better understanding of what they believe. And I know Him to be merciful. Thanks for the food for thought.
I suppose you see mercy in such a scenario, at least for a few individuals on the ark. It does seem strange about Noah's in-laws and family being the only people worthy of saving.
The venerable Stooges asked your guy why he didn't just start out creation with Noah's people to begin with. He got angry, stomped off, and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah just to spite Moe. Lot's wife always reminded him of his.
Hey stooge boy. I can only handle one thought at a time. Don't make curiosity kill the cat. Let me pocess this one. And, by the way, it wasn't too long after the water receded that the family proved not that good after all.
So what does this tell you about your deity's ability to judge his creations, Yahweh boy?
Uh, not a boy, and I don't write His name. I agree with the Jews on that one. Actually, all this exchange has taught me about God, is I don't know everything. But I already knew that. Silly man.
Me neither! I consider myself a man now.
I don't blame you for not writing his name with his inability to make up his mind about things. You never know what might piss him off next. Not silly at all, as I didn't expect you to be able to rationalize Yahweh's actions. The High Stooges can't either.
I'm a girl. Or a woman if I admit my age. Just thought I would add that, seeing as how I think you misunderstood. And I respect you doing your thing, no matter how silly your gods might be. I'll do mine. And like it. No matter how silly mine might seem to you.
Fine with me. But you might ask your god to lighten up a bit. The other gods are beginning to talk about taking away his god membership, and you know who he'll be forced to hang around with then. Those two do not play well together as we well know.
I'll make a note to mention that next time he asks my opinion.
Troy C.posted 43 hours ago in reply to this
Good morning Saints,I hope everyone slept well, I know I did but when I woke this morning God had put a message in my heart.
Composer responds: That's not a good omen according to your story book Troy C. -
The heart [is] deceitful above all [things, and desperately wicked: . . . . (Jeremiah 17:9) KJV story book
Better luck next time. LOL!
88Troy C.posted 43 hours ago in reply to this
. . . . Always remember who the real enemy is.
Composer responds: Sadly it's deceivers like you (as I shewed earlier from your own story book) that listens to their deceitful heart -
The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked . . . . (Jeremiah 17:9) KJV story book
But we non-story book believers don't fret, because we have the Truth that exposes those like you!
Another Truth and Fact is that the majority of you self acclaimed story book believers claim the greatest deceiver of all is your alleged naughty Satan / Devil spirit fallen heavenly angel being, when of course straight away your claims are refuted by your own story book IF you ever actually paid attention to what it really states.(Jer. 17:9) LOL!
Better luck next time!
If Jesus is not real, then why would people go to all this trouble of trying to disprove the fact of his existence. The answer is obvious.
Yet they will pay for thier transgressions.
Proverb 12:13 The wicked is snared by the transgression of his lips:
but the just shall come out of trouble.15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes:but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
So seek the counsel of the word of God by reading it daily and I promise you that your life will change for the better.
I just glanced at something as I was leaving and it caught my eye, like I said i no longer read the negatve comments but the ones I have read in the past have let me know what were up against. The phrase story book jumped out and yes:
The Bible is a book of true stories
that tell of God and his son Jesus
who deserves all the glory.
Nobody objects to the idea of a jesus - just what people like you do with it, and then what collectively you do all around the world whre you are responsible fo most of hte troubles between nations, peoples and within societies.
By all means come back any time Troy C. and try your luck again, but you will need to bring something sadly lacking for your cause so far, i.e. legitimate evidence for it. LOL!
Better luck next time if you wish to try again!
Because the followers of the Christian cult have been and continue to destroy mankind's future.
There is a lot of historical evidence that Jesus lived. We have all the Biblical accounts and Early Church writings -- a lot of it written by or about people who where subject to a horrible death because of there Christian witness, who died rather than recant their story. Even today, like then, Death Bed Testimony - testimony given by a person who knows they are dying, is given great weight in modern courtrooms. We also have Josephus and the Jewish rabbinical record of the time.
Thank you lindatymensky, you are very wise. nuff said.
you are listening to your pastor so much, but forgot to read your history books.
there is NO historical evidence of jesus but there are evidence for christians in 1st century though they were never called christians. again they had no uniform beliefs. some called jesus a living man while others claimed he is spirit(including the one who wrote letters of paul). there were also so many myths and some miracle workers like apolloneyus. the later church combined all these(with the help of Constantine) though they succeeded only for a short time obvious from the fact of the existence of various christian sects with various beliefs.
if all these jesus believers and other non jesus god believers started to discuss their beliefs, i think, no atheist will get a space to post anything here.
We also have Josephus and the Jewish rabbinical record of the time.
josephus was born in AD37 after the supposed death of jesus. about that paragraph by josephus, the less said the better. NO contemporary has ever seen jesus nor any of the natural phenomenon(like the eclipse) written in that barbaric novel called bible.
I think Jesus was a guy and did exist - how ever I do not agree with Christians views of him because they are contridicting - the BiBle says Jesus is God's Son - O.K but it also says we are all God's children - Jesus bled and died on the cross and went through hell on earth - But Don't all of "God's" children suffer - just in diffrent ways- this world tends to beat people down just as it did to Jesus - he is not the only one of "God's children" who suffered and died - so - if this is the case shouldn't we as "God's children" all worship each other and not just him? Just a thought
Is not jesus a myth, yes. jesus has become a myth but did he exist, there is a lot evidence that Jesus mythology began with a man called by Messianic Jews as Yeshua or Yahshua.
The mythology of Jesus though is a recurring theme in world mythology.
Son of god by mortal woman
becomes hero and savior of mankind.
It is always appearing in various cultures. We seem to be born with a predisposition to believe this story.
Where is this evidence please? LOL
What you mean is " lot of people believe."
Which does not make it real.
I thought you understood this stuff.
hi mark, couldn't resist? I would give you evidence but then I know you're going to start talking about aliens again so I'm not going to go down that path to the usual. So lets just go right and talk about it.
You know, I did see a cigar shaped UFO in my twenties. I was with three friends. Then on another location, another friend mine saw the same thing on the same night.
have you seen this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGeWBiLV … re=related
It is intriguing.
Interesting way of avoiding the complete lack of evidence. Well done. Never mentioned aliens - ever.
Just a myth.
you know what I'm talking about and neither are you interested in my evidence.
No - I have never mentioned aliens. But - please go ahead and show your evidence.
about aliens? I just did. mark its old. we should have other topics.
Of course. What is the weather like where you are?
So what? Saturn's auroral radio emissions similar to the Earth's auroral radio emissions.
is not jesus a myth?
Christian god or son of god called Jesus is sure a myth; never existed or born of Mary.
is not jesus a myth?
Jesus as mentioned in Quran was a real person; Son of Man.
Did Yoda from Starwars start this thread 'Was not Jesus a myth' lol
Jesus may or may not have existed. However, it is telling that the ancient Greeks worshipped Hermes, who was born of a virgin, performed miracles and was crucified for (as Douglas Adams puts it) 'telling everyone how great it would be to be nice to people for a change'. Funny how so many of the early Christian converts were also Greek.
Is not jesus a myth?
Jesus as projected by Christianity a god or son of god is mythical for sure. But Jesus as mentioned in Quran a real person and son of Mary was a real person. Right? Please
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