Fundamentalist Christian Authors Promote Abuse to "Train Up a Child"
Here's the link. Rather shocking, since Jesus supposedly is the "Prince of Peace." However, it seems to be consistent with the general temperature and climate of the religion forums here:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/bo … -to-censorI can't stand this kind of cr@#. Anybody with an ounce of knowledge concerning child development knows that abusive child rearing has consequences mentally, physically and emotionally.
The people who say the 'rod' is used for spanking don't understand how shepherds use the rod to guide the sheep, not beat them."shepherds use the rod to guide the sheep, not beat them."
Well, that's part of the problem with using a book that was written for a farmers and herders, in metaphors that farmers and herders would understand instinctively. Most of us modern westerners (myself included) wouldn't know what to do with a herd of sheep if one were given to us.
"Spare the rod, spoil the child," is a reminder that kids need (and indeed want) rules and limits and structure in their lives. Without that structure, kids get worried, and act out to find where those limits are.
Of course, "spare the rod, spoil the child" has a nice alliterative ring to it; it's not likely to go away. Maybe if we could come up with a closer alternative that also rhymes, alliterates, or has some other assonance?
Did you read the comments on that article? Very interesting. Here's one comment I tend to agree with.
big-ry #110 03:25 pm Aug 24 2011
Its cald freedom of speach and expression. Just because someon buys this book and reads it does not mean they will beat their children, how stupid. Individuals are responsible for their behaviour, not books.
I totally object to someone telling me I can't read about a particular subject matter.
The same would apply to whomever wrote the book. They are entirely responsible for how they perceive the messages in the bible. Christianity the institution itself is not responsible.Hey that's one of my favourite Kiwi sites!
Honestly bad parenting can be seen in both countries,AND the attitude that one cannot interfere with anothers parenting methods sickens me.
Who will be the voice of the child? or would people prefer to wait until they make the 6'o'clock news for murder!!You have mentally ill people of all faiths and beliefs. You have evil people of all faiths and beliefs. You have people who claim to be of certain faith and have not real concept of what it means to practice that faith in truth. Obviously these people were very evil and do not love children at all. Very sad story, very very sad.
In this modern world, it is absolutely madness to think to promote thumping,smacking and the rod to use for the development of abusive child or to obey the instruction. Children born like a angle. Love, affection, explanation and use to keep conversation in the family as well as in school are the best way of child development.
As far the religions are concerned. The concept of love with children does not exist. It will be nice to keep religion only to obey for the entrance of heaven after death.
You get in problem to use religion in all aspect of life. So, we have to respect our children and behave like a gentle way.Once again, the Christian faith breeds more insanity and ridiculous ideals.
WHAT THE BOOK SAYS:
- The book promotes thumping, smacking and hair pulling as a way of training a child to obey instructions. It compares children with dogs.
- It promotes the use of a "rod", which the authors describe as a "divine enforcer". It recommends using a metre-long branch or a belt on an older child and a smaller object, such as a ruler, on a younger child.
- "Any spanking to reinforce instruction, must cause pain."
- "If you have to sit on him to spank him, do not hesitate... hold the resisting child in a helpless position for several minutes, or until he is totally surrendered."
- Michael Pearl said his wife trained their daughter to stop biting her during breastfeeding by pulling on her hair. "Understand, the baby is not being punished. Just conditioned."
I'm not a proponent of banning the sale of books. This will bring about some heated discussion from both camps.I'm certainly not for book burnings. But it says a lot about the types of people there are in the world who would think there isn't anything wrong with abuse as an approach to discipline.
As a side note, I grew severely abused, under similar "disciplining" as the book promotes, under the premise that it was somehow Godly, since my family were very conservative and religious. I have been able to make peace with my upbringing and those who perpetrated the abuses. And as a result, I am an advocate and voice against abuse, against religious fanaticism, and an advocate for rational thinking, logic and doing good.
While it won't serve any real purpose to burn or universally ban such a book because there are always more people to write another similar to it, and who already live it, it should make us the wiser for falling into such heinous traps....just a note: Anyone who knows anything about having a happy, well behaved, child OR dog OR cat, knows that that kind of stuff is damaging (whether or not the damage is obvious or more hidden),
No need to ban such a book. Just don't buy it. Also, people should exercise their own freedom of speech to point out how stupid such a book is.
Through my own experience dealing with abused children (and my own experience raising my own three, nice, kids who were always known for being nice, well behaved, and "a pleasure to be around"; and from having dogs and any number of cats that were also "attached" and well behaved to the point where people would often notice and comment), I'd say that people ridicule such books and trust their own common sense, respect for their own child (or pet), and position as a role model when trying to teach children (or anyone/anything else) how to behave, relate well, and love.
It's laughable (only it isn't funny) that some religions talk up a storm about "peace", "love", "respect" and whatever else - only to try to tell people to physically hurt the youngest of human beings and the ones who look most to them with trust and admiration.
These types of Christians are progressives. They believe people are born evil and dumb with no brains. Kids have to be trained like animals to become progressively developed.
- Emile Rposted 13 years ago
0I think the authors should have been codefendents in the trial of the person who killed their child by following the book's instructions.
I'm disappointed that anyone agreed to offer the book for sale on their websites in the first place. This reminds me of the guy (don't remember who but claimed to be a christian) who said a baby who cries when nothing is wrong is lying and should be punished! As if a baby can lie! Besides, the baby could be saying he's bored, scared, too hot, too cold, is mad because you didn't come the first time, whatever. The idea that the baby lied and should be punished is no more christian than the non-christian idea of openly smacking or beating the child because it annoys him. Or the idea of ones who say it's a tough world and the kid may as well learn while they're young. People can be sick in the head, that's for sure.
- SirDentposted 13 years ago0
I am a firm believer in discipline but I know that one can go too far with it. According to the site linked in the OP, this is way over the edge.
Exactly, Dent.
And I don't think the book said to beat the child to death.
So to claim these authors are responsible for the child's death is BS. The two who murdered the child are responsible (of course we know where liberals stand on personal responsibility). You can discipline your children and not beat them to death, or turn out psycos with mental issues.
Of course look around at all the kids today who have never been disciplined. tTey run around as if they are entitled to act in the ways they do, and God forbid you call them on it.
You do not discipline kids and you get a society full of flash-robs and punks on corners... the Liberal/Progressive social policy for raising kids is even now proving to be an abject failure.1. Beating a kid is not "disciplining" him, it's beating him.
2. Spanking is not the only form of discipline. In fact, it's one of the least effective ones. It's really only effective as a shock tactic, not a punishment, and its effectiveness as a shock tactic declines in direct proportion to the frequency with which it's used.
3. I agree with you that too many kids today are badly disciplined, but beating them with belts, switches, rulers, and PVC pipes as recommended in the Pearls' book is not the solution!
An appalling book rightly banned. It never ceases to amaze me how adults justify violence towards children...do they have the same attitude towards a fellow adult who does something disagreeable. It's very Brave New World like in its use of violence to control. Sickening.
And as for the shocking endorsements from fellow New Zealanders in the comment section, well like one of them said its no wonder New Zealand has such a high infant/child mortality rate.Discipline means to instruct which includes teaching and setting well defined boundaries. There's nothing in the meaning which implies violence or abuse.
They recommend beating kids with PVC pipes, too.
It is unfathomable to me that people could sit down to read a book like this and find themselves nodding along in agreement. Yet clearly people do.as one person said...people are responsible for their own actions...if they are abusing their childtren, chances are they are simply using the book, whatever book happens to be handy, to justify that abuse.
that being said, i would like to add this. since the right for a parent to discipline their children has been taken away from them...our society has gone down hill...not improved. our children do not respect their parents, they are taught that if they dont like their home environment they can divorce their parents and get new ones. when i was growing up i got spanked, with a belt even. not often because i knew if i was bad or disobedient, i would be punished. so i was a good girl. i learned not to talk back or be a smart mouthed kid. i learned to respect my parents and others in authority. then i watched as my sister decided her children would be allowed to hate her when punished. no one was ever allowed to call them liars...she didnt want them to have a guilt complex. her children grew up chronic liars, one not able to stay out of jail. so personally i agree with discipline...not abuse...but discipline. spanking a child on the butt will not harm him. i also believe in talking to him and helping him to understand why he was spanked.I don't believe Americans are denied the right to discipline their children. I'm not sure where you got that from. Did I miss something?
did you by chance read my entire post? by disciple i mean the right to discipline by spanking. there is a difference between spanking and abuse, though apparently to many people cant figure out what that difference is.
So if an adult lies, and is found out do they get a good spanking?
Why is it deemed ok to strike a child in order to correct them. Communicate verbally rather than physically.I have never hit my kids or grandkids. No need to destroy self worth because as an adult you don't have enough love to be patient and teach.
Gutless and stupid to hit children.
Anyone who hits kids around me is likely to get hit themselves!yes...i see how well disciplining verbally works. all one needs to do is look at the crime rate to know how well it works.
OOPS!
That won't go down too well on this thread!
I'm a little confused as how you came to that conclusion. Have you been limited in your ability to discipline your children? Are they now in jail?
I raised a child. I never found that not spanking him stood in the way of teaching him. When he did wrong, we discussed it so he would understand and he was an active participant in determining the level of punishment warranted. Lost privileges were accepted as appropriate. He functions well. He's a positive contributor to society now.This would be a good point if it were true....the violent crime rate has done nothing but decrease over the past 20 years (http://www.slate.com/id/2284662/)
Unless you can prove that most people in jail were verbally disciplined instead of spanked, that's a logical fallacy.
I'm not against spanking, and do it myself sometimes, but in my experience it's more effective the less you use it. Some of the worst behaved kids I've ever known were spanked regularly by their parents - the kids had become immune to the spankings and knew that they could get away with anything in exchange for some fleeting pain and humiliation.Most sources report a high incidence of physical abuse in childhood for prison inmates. 84% of prison inmates were abused as children (http://www.baltimorecountymd.gov/agenci … abuse.html) - it is an abhorrent thing for a parent to do to a child.
The book in question promotes outright child abuse, and not normal discipline methods. Hitting a child with a PVC pipe? The parents who wrote this book should have lost custody of their children. This just makes me sick to my stomach.I'm not against spanking, and do it myself sometimes, but in my experience it's more effective the less you use it. Some of the worst behaved kids I've ever known were spanked regularly by their parents - the kids had become immune to the spankings and knew that they could get away with anything in exchange for some fleeting pain and humiliation.
i agree completely...however...the problem here is i said i am a believer in spanking and now all these anti-spanking people believe i am an abuser...they apparently missed part of my message.
I think you are missing the point of discipline.
It comes from the word disciple, which means basically one who is taught.
I don't remember Jesus punching Paul or John in the face when they asked questions or did something he didn't like.
Just a point. You can't teach and hit at the same time. You can only frighten children into doing or not doing something without them really understanding why they should or shouldn't.
Now, with that being said I guess I can buy that there are times when scaring a child into not doing something might be acceptable until they are old enough to understand why they shouldn't. I suppose you would have to weigh the risks of the situation vs. the risks to their emotional well-being.
"since the right for a parent to discipline their children has been taken away from them...our society has gone down hill...not improved."
There's a difference between disciplining a child and punishing a child.
If you discipline a child, the child learns not only that if he does certain things he'll be in trouble, he'll learn that those things are wrong, he'll learn why he shouldn't do them, and he'll choose for himself not to do them as he matures.
If you merely punish a child when he does something wrong, he will learn that if he gets caught, he'll get punished. He won't have much of an idea why, and since some things we don't want kids to do are kind of fun, he'll learn that if he can manage to do them without getting caught, it's okay.
Spanking can be a tool in your discipline box, I guess. I don't use it myself, especially since one of the things I'm trying to teach my kids is that you shouldn't hit people when you're having a disagreement, and it would seem hypocritical to hit them for breaking the rules. But unless you're very clear about what the kid did to deserve the punishment, and why what he did merits a punishment in the first place, you're not disciplining the kid; you're merely punishing.
No they get to become President of The United States of America.
I think you do err. I believe they become vice president of the United States, as Mr. Cheney has proven.
I'm totally against burning books. (When you can burn the author.)
It wasn't so long ago that animals had more rights than children!
Whats that say about how we value our children
Matthew 15:4 says to honor your parents and if you curse(disrespect) them you are to be put to death.
2 Kings 2:24 The prophet called down a curse from God and had 42 kids killed by bears for making fun of his bald head....
I am not saying it is right... But the bible does have pretty harsh punishments for misbehaving children.I raised three sons and two step-sons ,pretty successfully (I think)
They all completed their education ,no ones been in prison ,so far ones employed and the other two still in University.
Did I discipline ,you betcha.
I would rather a quick swift smack on the arse ,than a 4yr old dictating when he can walk out onto a busy road.
(There is always one kid who will have great difficulty listening to reason)
Actually one child learned by graphic language and if I said his head would end up as zillion pieces on the footpath-for him that had an good learning effect!
Middle child -totally different ,just one look and he was remorseful.
Did I make mistakes-yep I did
I was quick to say sorry,when I made a mistake.
Did I train them in routine( you get up ,go to school, so that by the time you have to get up and go to work ,you my darling have already learned this thing called a 'good work ethic'
I used every opportunity I had to make them aware of how this world turns ,whether it was through creepy crawly spiders to foreign policy and how it might affect us.
Did I train them to respect old people -yep
Did I accept their bs when the teenage years hit -Nope ( Of course they still don't know that I know,exactly when they had cigarettes or a girl in their room)
Cant wait til they kids of their own!
Did I bully and disown them, when they decided to find their own belief system-Nope,I listened and I gained their respect, we talk alot!
I love every hair on their now 6ft bodies, and they are precious to me because they exist!!
But if I love them that much, all these years imagine how much more God loves them-ok well maybe you can't-but I can ,and thats what matters to me.I am not stating my own opinion for or against this topic. I was just pointing out that the bible does seem to endorse some harsh punishments.
Why is it, just because I offer a different point of view or don't claim to be christian, that everyone assumes I don't not know or understand who and what God is and what the spiritual connection with him/her is?
I might have to start a thread on why does one believe in God and without using the bible, nature,or the "normal" rants, explain ones personal reasonings and proof of what makes God real for them.I could have cited scripture that supported me through many of those years ,but they were scripture that built up,inspired,an edified.
My parenting was evidence for a loving and caring God not a harsh and brutal one that you chose to highlight DS.
Yes you can quote scripture on any given topic ,but many Christians actually twine Christ into their thinking which is reflective in how they make decisions in their everyday life.
( Trust me ,I am quite the rookie on this) BUT I like the training
Many Fundies do however use those "harsh and cruel" points to justify their actions. And a study of Jesus (using texts other than just the bible)show another side that was on the cruel side as well.
In todays society, with the education and studies we now have available, have taught us that there are other options in discipline other than the extreme side punishment that is still used by some still to this day.
Actually, "curses" is a pretty narrow and mild translation of the word in Mathew, "Kakologeo", which better translates to, -revile- -dispise- -speak evil of- -insult- etc... there is a lot more to it that just a curse word or two thrown at your parents.
And as to 2nd Kings 2:24, the prophet, Elisha, called down fire upon the, "kids", because in their affront, calling him Bald head, and disrespect to him, they disrected and insulted God, as Elisha was the messenger of God and as such was to be respected and shown defference.
Elisha was assaulted by the children at Jeroboam's cult city of Bethel, in public, and therefore the insult and challenge was more than just some kids playing at messing with an old man. It was a direct assault and affront to the lord God, as represented by his Prophet, as he passed through this corrupted area of pagan cultism. It served, the bears eating the kids, as a lesson against all those that would dare to challenge the God of creation and Lord of the ages.
So because of the place, and the intent of those involved, death was a quick and correct judgement.
Discipline has its place... and like all other things it should be undertaken with moderation. no one says, or believes, that you should beat a child half to death for crying over hunger... that is just Liberal Prgressive extremist BS.You think being mauled to death by a bear is quick?
Matthew 15:4 (multiple versions)
New International Version (©1984)
For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
New Living Translation (©2007)
For instance, God says, 'Honor your father and mother,' and 'Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.'
English Standard Version (©2001)
For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.'
International Standard Version (©2008)
Because God said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and 'Whoever curses father or mother must certainly be put to death.'
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
For example, God said, 'Honor your father and your mother' and 'Whoever curses father or mother must be put to death.'
King James Bible
For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
American King James Version
For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
American Standard Version
For God said, Honor thy father and thy mother: and, He that speaketh evil of father or mother, let him die the death.
Bible in Basic English
For God said, Give honour to your father and mother: and, He who says evil of father or mother will be put to death.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Honour thy father and mother: And: He that shall curse father or mother, let him die the death.
Darby Bible Translation
For God commanded saying, Honour father and mother; and, He that speaks ill of father or mother, let him die the death.
English Revised Version
For God said, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, He that speaketh evil of father or mother, let him die the death.
Webster's Bible Translation
For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Weymouth New Testament
For God said, 'Honour thy father and thy mother'; and 'Let him who reviles father or mother be certainly put to death';
World English Bible
For God commanded, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.'
Young's Literal Translation
for God did command, saying, Honour thy father and mother; and, He who is speaking evil of father or mother -- let him die the death;
The Greek word used for "Curse" is: kakologeo kak-ol-og-eh'-o: to revile -- curse, speak evil of.
2Kings 2:24 (Multiple versions)
New International Version (©1984)
He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.
New Living Translation (©2007)
Elisha turned around and looked at them, and he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of them.
English Standard Version (©2001)
And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Looking back, he saw them and cursed them in the LORD's name. Two bears came out of the woods and tore 42 of these youths apart.
King James Bible
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
American King James Version
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
American Standard Version
And he looked behind him and saw them, and cursed them in the name of Jehovah. And there came forth two she-bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two lads of them.
Bible in Basic English
And turning back, he saw them, and put a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the wood and put forty-two of the children to death.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And looking back, he saw them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord: and there came forth two bears out of the forest, and tore of them two and forty boys.
Darby Bible Translation
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of Jehovah. And there came forth two she-bears out of the wood, and tore forty-two children of them.
English Revised Version
And he looked behind him and saw them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she-bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
Webster's Bible Translation
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tore forty and two children of them.
World English Bible
He looked behind him and saw them, and cursed them in the name of Yahweh. Two female bears came out of the woods, and mauled forty-two of those youths.
Young's Literal Translation
And he looketh behind him, and seeth them, and declareth them vile in the name of Jehovah, and two bears come out of the forest, and rend of them forty and two lads.
The Hebrew word for curse is: vay·kal·lem- to be slight, swift or trifling
And if we look at the whole phrase: 2Kings 2:23-24
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. “Go on up, you baldhead!” they said. “Go on up, you baldhead!”
24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.
It says nothing of what you mentioned. Just that he was walking to Bethel and while on the road, some youths jeered at him. How was they to know he was a "man of God"?
Ah, yes, precisely. This of course justifies why children are murdered by torture every day. Because it says so in a religious book, just like another religious book in question here which promotes hitting children with not only hands, but with objects. To construe that such insanity is consistent with any "benevolent god" is insanity and absolutely nauseating.
Further, after having read this thread to this point, I find it appalling and frightening that so many people do not understand the difference between discipline and PUNISHMENT. Further, it indicates to me how sick and twisted some people's idea of "love" is. Indeed, truly frightening and sad.
We hear and read in headlines with some regularity about idiots who want to "toughen up" their kids by murdering them. This is exactly the same religious macho mentality that was used on me. And I was nearly murdered two times by a parent. The only reason I lived is because someone was willing to be killed to stop them from killing me. It makes me wonder if there is any end to human stupidity.Daniel, I'm so sorry to hear of the abuse to you personally! And I hope there was justice done about the situation?!
But surely you don't see all Christian discipline as "punishment"....?
The subject of this thread does show abuse, but not all Christians would go to such extremes. I doubt anyone ever died from having one's mouth swiped with soap or paddled or even whipped a few lashes with a switch. Parents know when they're taking things to extremes. Or they should, anyway. And sometimes giving a child a "time out" or just talking to them doesn't work. I'd say parental discipline including those non-life-threatening forms of punishment is better than having to hand the kids over to legal authorities or watch helplessly as they get involved in dangerous things outside the home.Brenda, thanks. It's been a long journey, but I hope I'm the better for it.
Christian discipline shouldn't be any different than any other discipline, really. We are all human beings, not just Christian and non Christian. Regardless, it is still evident to me that the two terms, discipline and punishment are used interchangeably, with horrific consequences.
I don't feel a need to prescribe a way a parent disciplines their children. But I do feel that every parent needs to put their own self in the child's shoes and consider how their actions and words will impact their child. The biggest problem with severe forms of "discipline" is that it is instantly seen by the child as hypocrisy. The parent says one thing but does the opposite. Thus the self conflict of the parent is passed on to the child and therein lies the perpetuation of the insanity and insane reasoning. The whole purpose of Christianity is lost in such hypocrisy and foul reasoning.
If my dad had done to me presently as a child now what he did all those decades ago, he would have lived in prison for a good while. But as it turned out, because of his own self conflict, inner turmoil and insanity, he suffered immeasurably through his life and died an extremely painful, slow death. There is no justice that I would have wished up on him that could have made him suffer more than he actually did.
My anger is not toward my dad. I made peace with him a few years before he died, and I actually raced to his hospital bed side to see him before he died. I led the ambulance that carried him home to my mom's place, where for two more days, I stayed at his side, and at last held his hand as he took his last breath. He knew I loved him, he knew I forgave him, and we are good to this day. But I proclaim and shout that such stories as mine CAN and SHOULD be avoided. It's far better that they never happen than it is to spend a dysfunctional life time trying to figure out how to stop the self abuse, self hatred, insanity and sabotage that is perpetrated and passed on because of abuse. It's better that it never happens than to have to spend a life time trying to repair the damage after.
My point is quite simple: put yourself in the other's shoes before you say anything, and before you make action. It will save you and them a lifetime of grief if you just think the through the consequences of what you are about to do. And this should be done irrespective of any religious belief. It should be an innate part of understanding that we are as human beings interconnected with each other. We cannot do to another without it also affecting ourselves.What an awesome story of love and forgiveness! You rock, Daniel!
I know I was really fortunate to have parents who weren't hypocritical. They disciplined (yes and punished) us kids, but they actually lived by the Godly principles of the good Book, remembered that they were once kids themselves, and weren't too severe with us. Knowing I'd have to go cut my own switch from a tree limb deterred me from misbehaving many times as I remember it; and that's a good thing.
I have the opposite view to yours of being able to put all parenting ways into the same category, of course, because I do think everyone should discipline in a Christian manner because not only are literal lives at stake but also the eternal spiritual state of a child is at stake. Well, it is what it is.
Yes I agree that stories like yours can and should be avoided. I'm just glad you've been able to resolve things.
On a bit of a digression... but not by much...
I once had a conservative christian tell me that there was nothing wrong with my daughter and that if I just "beat her ass" a few time that she would be fine. Of course she also told me that Autism didn't exist and that Republicans didn't have autistic kids.
As a matter of fact, I get the "I'd beat her ass if I were you" thing a lot. It never fails that it is coming from a christian.
I've got to wonder if the overwhelming ignorance of all things discovered by science/medicine within the last 50 years is a product of Christians spending so much time reading their bible that they neglect to read anything else.
Back to the subject at hand though. In another story let me tell you about a mom with a disabled child. She spanked him once. Just a quick swat across a very heavily diapered butt. He had thrown a plate of food across a dining room. A few years later her son passed away from his disabilities. Of all the memories that the mother had of her son, that memory kept cropping up over and over.
How sad is it that her memories of her time with her child were tainted by one moment of "discipline" So, for all the spankers out there think about if you would want the same thing. If not, you probably know in your heart it is wrong anyway.Um, sorry, but I find that a little ridiculous. The kid misbehaved and she lost her temper and spanked when making him clean up the mess and sending him to his room would have been a better solution. It happens. Dwelling on it forever is silly.
If he'd lived, she could have apologized when he reached the age of 25 or so, and I guarantee you he would have laughed and said that he deserved it. I can count on my hands the number of times I got spanked by my parents and I deserved every one of them. I have actually thanked them for doing it - sometimes a good swat on the butt is exactly the reality check a kid needs. It's when spanking is the only method of discipline, or when things like belts or pipes(!!!) get involved, that it starts causing damage.Absolutely agree-There is a big difference between a spanking and a beating and I think most reasonable people know the difference.
It is the uneducated,poorly trained in life skills who resort to violence and if they can 'use' religion to back up their limited skill base ,of course they will and do.
Does that make sound controlled discipline wrong -absolutely not ,if anything re-enforces the need for it to be seen clearly."Um, sorry, but I find that a little ridiculous. The kid misbehaved and she lost her temper and spanked when making him clean up the mess and sending him to his room would have been a better solution. It happens. Dwelling on it forever is silly. "
It may seem silly to you, but some folks have a hard time forgiving themselves for their perceived mistakes.
Spanking isn't 'discipline.' It's a punishment. It can be used as a tool in the discipline toolbox, but real discipline isn't just punishing (whether by spanking or timeouts or loss of privileges) when a kid acts out. It involves teaching the kid why it's wrong to do what they did, and why they're getting negative consequences for it. If you're disciplining a kid, he'll grow up with a sense of what's right and what's wrong rather than a sense of what he can and can't get away with.
What a pathetic little god.
Kill children because they insulted the lord?
That ain't no lord. that is a despot! What a tiny minded little psychopath!Think about this, E.
Those children were entwined in, and represented, the cult of thier society, and as members of that cult they challenged the Prophet of God, and to that challenge they were held, judged and condemned.
And death may seem harsh to you, but your death is nothing but a spanking to God.
You all amaze me you know. God doesn't state anything in the bible that he will do for us, that science doesn't state, even now, that they will be able to do one day.
So what is so hard to believe.Only a psychopath kills children.
Your god is a psychopath.
What is so hard to understand about that?That is because of your, Man's, limited understanding of death. To God death is nothing... but to you it is everything.
Big difference.Curious...If Death is nothing to God, then why was it used as such a strict punishment for "sins"? Wouldn't the biggest punishment be, being forsaken completely by God?
It is, it is called the second death, or hell, it is called a few different things in the bible. But death in this physical world is not the eternal death that you will suffer if you stray too far in this life and do not learn. Thus the martyrs embracing of death in this world being no big deal in the end.
Complete and utter seperation from God will be the worst of all things suffered by the sinner.And if the human body is still alive when this happens?
It happened to Jesus...He even asked...My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?Most likely it will not be, but who is to say if the spirit form you have and will be in at some point, cannot suffer as bad or worse then this physical body.
Yes Jesus uttered, "Eloi Eloi Lema Sabachthani", that could be seen a few different ways though. One would be that God had to foresake Christ so as to allow the world its way and condemn him, and in that act putchase the souls of all. Or you could see it as Christ fulfilling his mission and in its fulfillment, he referred the 22nd Psalm, the testamony of his work and its completion.
I have heard and read many different reasons for his uttering of those words and simply do not know.Well I suppose we will find out one way or another when we die. I prefer to live my life, that I can control, death I have no control over. It is one of the only things guaranteed to happen.
I lived my life as I wanted... then I died... and I am positive from my experience, and many before and since, that God is there. He loves us and waits patiently for as many of us as chose to, to come to him.
So... live your life, but do not loose track of the fact that God is there, or in your case, that God may be there, and you may want to have some footing to stand on when at last you meet him.
we always seem to assume...
Asking a different point of view or posing the opposite arguement, does not mean that I do or do not believe in God or any other diety for that matter.
I am here for the discussions and the learning experience. And we learn by asking all questions, not just the ones that provide the answers we want to hear.I assumed by your conversation that you doubted, which is perfectly normal and nothing I am going to judge. And i am enjoying the conversation also. it is nice not to argue and be insulted just cause of a dis-agreement DS.
thank you for the conversation.Thank you as well.
I very much like to get as many different view points as I can when it comes to beliefs. The hows and whys are very interesting to me.
Crucifixion was normal practice then DS and well you know it.
And being also the Son of Man ,he wasnt exactly looking forward to the torture,then an ya probably also know this DS Jesus called out
But not my will be done ,but yours Father.Yes it was...and many years before that as well.
I was curious to TM's thoughts on being forsaken by God. He said it was the second death...So I wondered what if the body was still alive...and he also said worse thing for sinners, so I wondered about Jesus...As he cry out asking why God had forsaken him.
"Thy will be done" was in the garden prior to the trial...crying out "why has thou forsaken me" was on the crossHave you ever read the 22nd Psalms? I said 23rd earlier, bro... sorry mental block.
I think you would find it interesting.
The second death is a physical/spiritual eternal death of you, the whole you, not just your physical body, but your spirit also.Yes I have. And Jesus repeated the first verse of it. He must have felt he was forsaken, why else would he quote scripture supporting that thought?
The 22 psalms is "supposed" to be by King David...And he wrote many psalms of defeat, pain or suffering as well as victory, happiness or health. He was a "bard". Think about todays music...those sapping ballads about love lost or pain and suffering sell the most CD'sIt is also a declaration of the life of the suffering servant, the messiah, and his death and the events surrounding it.
It is very interesting to read and look at Christ's life, and if you truly believe it was David that wrote it, then it is astounding in its prophetic accuracy.
I thought you might find that Christ's life and death was so accurately predicted and fore-told to be of interest, Especially since his utterance of "Eloi Eloi Lema Sabachthani" - "My lord my lord why hast thou forsaken me", on the cross.
The 22nd psalms itself opens with that exact line.
How do you kill something that is in essence eternal?
What do you think is eternal? Your soul or spirit? God can destroy your soul, I know of no-where it says your soul is eternal... if you do, could you let me know? The only eternal spirit I know of is God.
Each individual soul is eternal, created from one universal consciousness. You choose to call it God, I call it consciousness. Just because it isn't written anywhere doesn't mean it can't be true.
Try a bit of meditating and access the stillness within. That is the source of our true eternal nature, just expand your own consciousness away from the confines of a proscriptive doctrine and open up to the infinite possibilities of your true nature!
Thankyou for the correction DS.
Jesus felt forsaken ,because for a short time the sin of the world was on His shoulders- the light left the day,in fact Science testifys to that fact...shortened day/eclipse etc.
Copied this sentence from Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus
Roman soldiers did not break Jesus' legs, as they did to the other two men crucified (breaking the legs hastened the crucifixion process), as Jesus was dead already.I have thought that maybe, he was forsaken from the time of his death and travels into hell until his resurrection. This would make sense for him to win out over Hell and Death. If God was with him during this time, then there was nothing to win over, because there was never any real danger.
The gospel of nicodemus has an account of Christ in hell and his defeat of death and satan. There are a few other accounts of it spread through christian lore also. I belioeve that Christ went to hell and redeemed the patriarchs and those who were worthy. but some of the apocrypha is quite fantastic in its renderings of the account... so...
Yes. I have read and studied just about every biblical text there is. While there is simularities in the stories presented, many are somewhat conflicting. I still have my own thoughts on certain things based off of my formal education as well as personal studies.
I find this rationale completely amazing and frightening. Such rationale could also be used and probably has been used for ethnic cleansing, bigotry and so many other things. To justify abuse under the guise of "well god did it!" only shows how insane some people can become with religious zealotry.
If I were to meet a "god" like the psychopath in the bible, I would be happy to kill him in a heartbeat.
What a horrible neurotic piece of work.... no human is that bad.When I was a child, I got spanked almost everyday. My mother would use a piece of kindling in my butt. Now that I am an adult and I look back in honesty... I probably deserved all of those spankings. I bear no ill-will for my mother for spanking me in fact I am glad she did. Her ability to love me enough to discipline me has given me a profound strength in life.
Today, I am 44 years old. Everyday I listen to the neighbors child who is five tell her mother how much she hates her. This occurs every time the child does not get her own way. I hate you, I hate you, I hate you... the child is passively disciplined by having toys and privileges taken away. She is also sent to her room for time outs. This has been going on for two years. That child needs a spanking because the passive attempts of discipline are not working.
Yesterday she spit in her fathers face. This is not a child who has mental issues. This is not a child that has inherent behavior problems. This is a child who does not have good parenting.
Every Friday, we have music in the park. When we go, there are constant distractions by children throwing fits and running while the parents are passively trying to keep them under control. BULLSH*T! When your child's behavior has an impact on everyone around them then you as a parent need to do something. If your child can not behave in public then leave them home.
With all of this being said... I will say that I do not agree with the book that is used as a topic of discussion. There is a difference between beating your child and spanking your child. I for one am very much over passive parents and their spoiled rotten children. It is very clear that passive discipline does not work on every child. There is no reason that the rest of humanity should suffer that fact. The girl across the street from me... what kind of adult is she going to grow up to be? How are they going to control her when she becomes a teenager? How much will you have to pay in public taxes to help correct the issues that poor parenting leads to in future behaviors? It is not okay to beat your child but parents should be responsible enough to make their children mind.LOL! I honestly don't think people read what they write.
So, you were "spanked almost everyday and probably deserved all of those spankings." In other words, your behavior didn't change.
Tell me exactly how spanking worked and how that could possibly be good parenting?@ A Troubled Man...... In many comments you make... you use ad hominem as some means of revelation. why don't you read what you wrote and think about how and why your response is erroneous. If you come up with something worth reading, then perhaps I will respond... in the mean time... I am not interested in your form of argument.
You use fallacies, too. I pointed one out.
My post simply points out the failed logic of your argument.
You were spanked everyday, hence spanking didn't work in changing your behavior. Then, as an adult, you see another child acting the same way you did when you were a child, but instead the parent doesn't resort to spanking and you call that bad parenting. Seriously.
Yes, I can see and understand that.See, the parents in Daven's example aren't being effective. Will adding spanking to the list of punishments automatically make them effective parents? Nope.
Sorry, but it won't. Not if it's inconsistently applied (as I suspect the loss of privileges and time-outs are), and not if it's delivered in anger, and without tellingn the kid exactly why she's being spanked and why the thing she did was wrong.
Spanking is a punishment. So is a time-out or a suspension of privileges. Both can be effective, and both can cause resentment. They'll be effective if they're used as part of consistent and loving discipline, which is not merely punishing bad behavior.
Daniel Carter pointed out that a lot of us here seem to think that punishment is synonymous with discipline. Some of us even seem to think that physically painful punishment is synonymous with discipline, that if you whack your kid on the bum when he acts out, your work is done, and that if the punishment doesn't include pain, then it's not "real discipline."
Sad.
Discipline includes consequences for bad behavior, yes. But discipline is more than just punishing. If your kid doesn't understand why he's being punished (whether the punishment is physical or not), he will resent the punishment rather than learn from it, and will grow up morally confused.Additionally, from my own experience, discipline is best directly associated with the behavior for which the discipline occurred. Hence, stealing candy from a store may elicit a harsh beating from some parents, but where's the correlation of the beating with stealing? Isn't the better solution to have the thief pay for the candy and accept other consequences associated with making restitution for stealing?
"Additionally, from my own experience, discipline is best directly associated with the behavior for which the discipline occurred."
Indeed; excellent point! Having a kid who stole something return it, pay for it, and/or apologize to the injured party, are all logical consequences for the crime of theft. A spanking, on the other hand, isn't a natural consequence of anything (except perhaps making the spanker angry).
Honesty is the best policy. The thing will be nicely appeared in writing, if your way of thinking is positive.
Spanking never be worked and no need to learn to remove your optimism and fine way of expression.I like your last point and I should say that when I got spanked it was never without a lengthy explanation of why I had gotten a spanking. Spanking was rarely my mothers first line of discipline but it worked and I rarely got a spanking for the same thing twice. Again, there is a great difference between spanking and beating. When I look at the five year old child across the street and the chasm that is being dug between herself and the parents I get really irritated. Her punishments include time-outs, losing privileges, and losing possessions. Last year they threw away all of her toys. Her mom says she gets 1-2 time outs per day and loses privileges often. I know that there is a least a tantrum at least once per day. It seems that this is her only tool for dealing with anything. I still maintain that if they had spanked her once or twice or three times throughout this entire five years of horrid behavior that the emotional scars would be less then when they threw out her toys, or canceled her birthday party. Spanking does work and I can tell you that first hand. It should not be the only discipline that is used and it should never be used without a teaching to go along with it. Perhaps in my example... these parents should not have children or maybe another set of parents could make this child behave. I look around everyday and see parents who I think should never have had children.
But, your actual behavior never changed as you went looking for more things to do that got you more spankings.
Spanking is hitting someone while beating is hitting someone. Explain the difference here, please?
Yes, beat... oops sorry... "spank" the kid and their behavior will change dramatically, just like yours didn't.
But, you didn't tell us it worked, in fact, quite the opposite. Your behavior did not change no matter how much you were spanked.
WOW! I can't believe you said that. I suspect that a visit from the Spirit of Christmas past showing you at that age would change your story altogether.
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