We have heard about the miracle where Jesus turned water to wine. People seem not to understand the type of wine that was made. Some said it was alcohol while some claim it was non-alcohol like fruit wine. I think a knowledge of the wine invoke at that time can give us an idea. Those that oppose alcoholic drink claim Jesus produced non-alcohol while those that take alcohol think otherwise. It is now a doctrine used to for benefit interest so how do we know the truth?
The guests at the wedding said that Chateau de Jesus was the best wine served throughout the whole wedding. These people would be accustomed to the difference between good and bad wine.
A simple test, next time you go shopping get a bottle of a nice Chianti, Merlot, Rioja, etc and a bottle of non-alcoholic fruit wine. Set yourself up a couple glasses in your kitchen and do some tasting. The non-alcoholic will stand out so far removed from the rest; it will likely be very sweet, will be characterless, empty, and most importantly the taste and nose that alcohol imparts to the wine will be absent.
So at the wedding, if non- alcoholic wine was served to a people who had never tasted non-alcoholic wine, then can anyone be serious when they say Jesus served up sickly sweet, bland, empty fruit juice?
Besides which, wine makes for merriment and Jesus wants us and them to be happy.
Manichewitz: A sacrificial wine of the Hebrew traditions. If jesus could do such a thing, it would have been a Jewish wine because Jesus was Jewish, at least at one point.
OK a Jewish wine it is then. But my point is, wine needs alcohol otherwise it's glorified fruit juice. Now if for thousands of years God is more than happy with Jews making alcoholic wine without condemnation or laws forbidding it, then why would anyone believe Jesus would suddenly change the rules?
I seldom (like maybe once a year or every two years) drink alcohol, but I do enjoy Manischewitz, a port wine, or really any dessert wine. Usually at weddings or something. I'll only drink it if it doesn't taste like alcohol.
In ancient times wine was used as a method of preservation and as a means to obtain a beverage that was not laden full of pathogens like most water from wells and streams. It was the alcohol content that made wine and beer healthier beverages than water, since the alcohol would kill the microscopic nasties.
In the story of the wedding feast at Cana, Jesus is described as turning water into wine. In the description of the event, the word used in John 2:9-10 is "oinos", which is the Greek word for the fermented product from grape juice, namely wine.
In Matthew 11:19 it says "The Son of Man came eating and drinking and they say Behold a gluttonous man and a drunkard a friend of tax collectors and sinners". Thus, the critics of Jesus in the days he was alive seized on the fact that he obviously used to enjoy the opportunities to have a good meal and (alcoholic) drink or two.
Naturally, this sort of assertion is hard for sour-faced, miserable-living fundamentalists to swallow and they will do their best to worm their way out of it and back into their killjoy way of life.
I disagree with miserable-living fundamentalists.
There is persuasive for both non alcoholic and alcoholic wine.
My stance has always been and will forever be non alcoholic wine and the reasons for that i will forgo.
My life is not miserable because i do not touch alcoholic drinks at all and that is just my preference. What others do is what others do. I am fine with my summation and that is all I need.
My life is robust without alcohol and my conscience is clear as well as my head
I have no quarrels with people who forgo alcohol for their own reasons.
I also know very well that alcohol can be addictive and can destroy the lives of certain people. The man I loved was among those. He was finally killed by alcohol last year after turning from a intelligent, witty, loving and compassionate man into a stinking, slovenly, physically violent moron. I bore the brunt of this for 2.5 years.
The solution, however, is not in condemning the vehicle. Excessive quantities of the wrong foods can kill as well, but no one advocates starvation as a general way of life.
People with addictive tendencies, who also feed their depression instead of trying to get help to combat it, will always find a way to kill themselves, regardless of what becomes forbidden.
For the rest of humanity, alcohol can be a pleasure, a means of relaxation and, when not over-indulged actually promotes health.
Therefore, brotheryochanan, if you are happy in your life and do not seek to dictate the way in which I live mine, there can only be peace between us
Honestly, to both WriteAngled and Brotheryochanan, the issue was not whether or not we should drink wine or not. They drank wine, but God cautioned that we use self-control and not be drunk. For some, that is easier said than done; self-control in all our actions and moderation.
A nice blackberry Merlot? Jesus had to have good taste right?
It depends on what everyone was eating, of course. Jesus had several large urns of water to work with, so who's to say he didn't create several kinds of wine, all of them the best?
I have never heard that any of the wine in the Bible was non-alcoholic.
Then again, I never heard of any of the bread in the Bible being a round wafer of some cardboard-like substance that sticks to the roof of your mouth, either.
So what do I know?
I tend to agree with those who state that several vats of water were used. I'm thinking Jesus converted a new vat for each course, saving the final vats for a lovely Muscat or Porto to serve with the wedding cake and maybe a few cigars.
I apologize in advance for the long reply, but the answer requires a thorough explanation..
In the Greek and Hebrew languages, there were thirteen words for the one word “wine” in our English Bible. If each of these thirteen words had been translated according to their correct meaning, I am sure that there would be no doubt as to the truth of the Scriptures regarding intoxicating beverages. The word “wine” in our Bible includes all kinds of grape products: grapes as fresh fruit, grape juice, raisins, grapes prepared as jam or syrup
Fresh grape juice was made to keep without fermentation by boiling until it became thick like molasses. Then it was stored away in skins or jars for future use. This preserved grape juice was used in various ways, but mostly as a spread for bread and mixed with hot or cold water, as a fruit drink, as described in the Hebrew Bible by Solomon. If more of the syrup was added to the water than usual, it was called ‘strong drink’. The Greek writer, Aristotle, and Pliny, an early Roman writer, both tell of the common custom of boiling down the grapes juice. Pliny records that, when the grape juice is boiled down to one third it’s bulk, the finest flavour is obtained and then it can be made into the “best wines”
This grape drink was non-intoxicating and was the ordinary drink of the people in the time of Christ. This being true, we can only conclude that is was this kind of “wine” that Jesus created at the marriage feast of Cana. It is written in early Roman history, at about the time of Christ, that fermented wines were used almost entirely for certain (heathen) temple ceremonies, and were drunk only by men over thirty years of age. Women were forbidden to use it except at the temple sacrifices. (Valerius Maximus, Book II, 1:5; VI, 3: Aulus Gellius, Book X, 23; Pliny, Book XIV, 13.)
When Jesus instituted the ordinance of the holy communion, He said that the wine that was to be drunk was a symbol of His blood. We know that this wine was not fermented, as fermentation in the Hebrew rituals represented sin, One day before the Passover lamb was slain, all leaven, or fermentation was to be put out of their dwellings; and, at the Passover feast, no yeast, or leaven,, was used in the bread, as it involved fermentation. Ex. 12:15-19; 13:3-7. The unleavened Passover bread was representative of the sinless body of Christ. Likewise, the unfermented wine represents His sacred blood, which was spilt to wash away our sins. 1 Tim. 5:23 also refers to unfermented wine. It is a scientific fact that grape juice is especially good for the stomach; it is high in mineral content and vitamins and is a very satisfying drink.
The use of fermented wine and drunkenness are condemned in the Scriptures. Prov. 23:29-35 gives us a most solemn warning against the use of intoxicating drinks and reveals the dreadful results of their use. The 31st verse tells what kind of wine this Scripture is warning against. “Look not thou upon t he wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself.” You may have noticed how fermented drinks burst forth into a foam as soon as they are uncorked. The fermentation causes it to “move itself”. Of such intoxicating drinks God warns us, “At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.” In 1 Cor. 6:10 we are told, ‘Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards… shall inherit the kingdom of God.’ Surely God would not put His stamp of approval on something that would cause man to lose his eternal salvation.
I hope this helps
Really? If the fermentation in wine represents sin so much, how come fermented wine is still in use at Seder meals?
I don't think so. The interpretation that Scripture prohibits any consumption of alcohol is a much more recent development than the practices prescribed in Scripture.
I know it will hurt your eyes to read this, but the practice has been since the beginning of Christianity to consecrate and serve wine with the unleavened bread, not grape juice. Why? Because that's what Jesus did, oinos being Greek for fermented wine, after all. And if fermented wine was not allowed in early Christian liturgy, it makes no sense that Paul had to go after the Corinthians for their immoderate consumption and even drunkeness while at table- while neglecting to mention anything about alcohol consumption being in and of itself a sin.
They distilled lsd from unleavened bread in 40's and it became popular in the 60's. Ergot, a mold found on unleavened rye, was common and I would tend to think that alot of the holly experiences of the day, were the result of eating moldy bread.
Andy, wow that was a lot of very interesting information. Thank you.
It was whatever type of wine people want to believe it was. If you want to imagine it was a nice merlot, or a fruit juice, then it makes no difference.
What type of wine did Jesus produce when he turned water to wine?
I don't think Jesus ever did it.
You know more than what the Bible teaches.
We know that!
The real issue is not whether or not it was alcoholic, really.
It's what we make of it.
It seems mankind is "hell bent" (to use an expression) on making doctrines about anything.
Jesus healed a blind man using mud made of spit and dust.
Does anyone care to make a doctrine out of it. Start making mud from spit, rub into blind eyes, and see them healed?
How about cursing fig trees. Jesus did that too.
Or, catching a fish with a gold coin in it's mouth to pay taxes.
The list is long, but I hope I got my point across.
Oh, BTW, I recon it was alcoholic, and I would be classed as a "fundie" AND, I do take alcoholic beverages.
Well, certainly we were not there to be sure of the type of wine produced at the wedding. I also note that one of the Apostles took wine because of his sickness or whatever. The point is that some Christains claim that alcohol is a sin while other Christains do not agree that its a sin. That is why I asked the question. Someone said,fermented drink is a sin in Jewsish law so alcohol is a sin.But we know that Noah and his family were saved by God yet same Noah drank wine and was drunk.Bible called it "wine"
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