Atheists have been called "fools" on these forums. We (and they) all know why. But, conversely they see believers as fools. Again, we all know why?
I have to admit, I AM a fool for Christ. (thought I'd get that right out front), So, which one is the greatest fool?
B) Believer ? And why?
you've pretty much summed it up. Either side sees the other as a fool. As the scripture says...the fool hath said in his heart, there is no God...
Careful CJ ,thats considered too forceful here
Yup that about sums it up all right. Ever since that was written, wars conflict and hatred has been spread.
I am only doing what you asked me to when I point out that your beliefs are ridiculous, pathetic crutches to salve your fear of death and reality.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Logically - you must want people to call you a fool. After 1500 years of calling people fools, we are now starting to do the same to you.
Just like you asked us to.
Rather foolish don't you think - calling people fools and then saying you are only doing what you want others to do to you?
More proof that the bible is worthless rubbish written by short-sighted men with a penchant for conflict.
It is God who is quoting (scripture)via the Bible..Only the fool has said etc..
I am slow to call someone a fool ,although I assume like yourself you have heard some very foolish theories.
Ha ha God even goes from calling them fools to laughing at them. 'The Almighty shall hold them in derision' And yet they say He aint got a sense of humour. Ha ha ha ha
So god thinks I am a fool?
You do not.
Did I get that right?
You nicely avoided the point I was making though.
Sorry sounded as though you felt Christians were calling you personally a fool...wanted you to stay focused is all.
The word comes from God ,which I believe you went on to say why you didnt beleive in that book.
It matters not what I think of you. I can tell you I find you a helpful person in technology matters. So therefore I would not call you a fool.
But as I said the laws you are so vehemently against are not mine, but Gods.
Do I agree with what God says, yes
Do I agree with Pres Obama's (example) yes
Are we the same person -No
No - just because you believe they are god's laws, that does not make them so. And I am not vehemently against any laws.
I am vehemently against people who think they have laws from a non-existent god and therefore can stand there and tell me that they are not calling me a fool - god is.
And if you believe every word in that book - you must believe I am a fool. No?
You do not believe every word from god? You pick and choose the words you like and discard the ones that don't suit you?
Ok its like this ,first of all you are wrong in your assumptions again.
I believe in the word of God.
He has said 'Only the fool has said in his heart ,'there is no God"
I believe what God says ,he has the wisdom an ability to say and call it whichever way he wants.
Does he tell me to find people and call them fools NO he does not!
What do you see me avoiding exactly?
And Mark just because you say God does not exist ,does not make it so
I would beg to differ on the point that the bible is an accurate version of anything. It is a book of stories that were originally passed verbally before being writting down by many sources and compiled by others. Much like a game we played as children known as 'Chinese Whispers' every time a story is heard and passed on it changes until it is essentially nonsense.
The Bible, like the Koran, is full of contradictions. It is impossible to follow every word exactly due to this.
This has created a dilemma for the church authorities who have to decide how to make this ancient book relevant to modern life.
Please do some serious research, before you make childish statements as this. You are entitled to an opinion, but get some depth to your understanding.
By all means read pro and con material, and then decide for yourself.
Based on your logic, there is no historical basis for any ancient history either. All is contrived.
I wonder if you realize how condescending you sound?
I agree with what he said. And I have spent some considerable time investigating the matter. There is very little proven historical fact in the bible, and much of what there is, is contradictory.
There is massive amounts of historical evidence for ancient history. Or are you suggesting that stonehenge and the pyramids do not count?
Very little of the actual historical evidence we have found concurs with your book of fairy tales. In fact, I have only ever been able to find one reference to jesus outside the bible.
Yet still you prefer to cover your eyes, and condescendingly tell other people to do some research.
And you wonder why your religion causes strife, conflict and wars.................
You know me so well. I might as well stop posting.
Did you want me to actually say anything?
Yes - I want you to show me the historical evidence that you have investigated and discovered that does not come from the bible. And show me how all the other historical evidence that does not agree with your book is somehow false.
You might also care to educate yourself a little before making those condescending comments.
I am actually serious. I have only ever found one reference to jesus outside of religious sources. Perhaps you could add a link to a dozen or so that you have found. I assume you have made substantial research and have hundreds of pieces of corroborating evidence to show me.
My point, which you seem to have missed, is that you speak with absolute certainty about events that occured over 2000 years ago. Do you not think there may just be the smallest amount of reporting error? How many different version of the bible are around today? You don't think it was written in modern english do you? Each successive translation was flawless? Ancient history needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Like it has been said of wars - the victor writes the history - an obvious example of reporting bias
On a separate point: I am 100% convinced that Jesus walked the earth. There is plenty of evidence cross referenced from many sources. This does not mean I think he was the son of god. I think he was an excellent orator and a charismatic figure, but still a regular human like you and me. My evidence for this is that he is dead, still. Evidence that he was the son of god is hearsay. If performing miracles is evidence I will go to church on sunday and worship David Copperfield. It must have taken divine intervention for him to ever hook up with Claudia Schiffer.
1) I hear you. There is minimal distortion in translations. All the reliable versions say consistent things. The major teachings have change little, if any. Biblical archaeology, has continued to reinforce, and confirm, names, dates, places and events of the past. It is not all encompassing, but accurate in what it has shown so far.
2) Jesus either was the Son of God, and IS raised from the dead, or the whole Bible, christainity, and faith is a lie (as many contend it is.) Eleven of the twelve disciples died for nothing (a complete fabrication), and so have countless thousands, through the ages. Each one refusing to recant that Jesus Christ is LORD.
If Jesus was NOT raised from the dead, the authorities of the day would have turned Judea upside down, and produced the body. They could not.
I believe, because of the evidence. Not because I was TOLD TO.
As I said, do some serious research, and decide for yourself.
If you have decided already, then write me off as a looney (no, a fool. I prefer that).
Then how can other religions with similar levels of historical evidence, yet saying vastly different things, be wrong.
Is the evidence supporting all other religions wrong but that for christianity right. What do you say to a Hindu or Muslim that mirrors your view but for their religion. Are you all right? All wrong? If you are all right why are you always fighting. The 'one god' argument doesn't work.
On the other hand, the scenario where you are all wrong, fits well. Numerous groups, all passionate believers in different causes, all unable to see the other persons point of view.....
Now thats something worth dying for.
I have made my choice. Sounds like you are still undecided. You will have to find out for yourself which one is "right".
If that's what you want to die for, then you do that.
I will ad value to people where I can, and where it is received. The rest is out of my hands.
Ying and yang both exists and contradiction is the way the mystic expresses life and god which is correct.
I'm just going to jump in late in the game with an earlier post to sum up how stupid this argument even is...
Any believer of any religion -- Mark hit it. You want to convert him through your pathetic quotes, phrases, adages, words, etc., and all you do is push him farther away from it. It's not that he doesn't see what you're saying, it's what you're saying he doesn't care to see because of the way you're going about it. Frankly, trying your hardest to convert anyone of any religion is futile, and I think it's proving itself here.
Arguing faith is about as worthless as arguing politics...everyone's opinion should be viewed like ass holes. We all have one and it stinks.
To Mark -- sorry people are doing this, although you're rightly doing it back. In over a year at HP I've yet to see you truly start this argument, so my props to you for sticking out the muddy waters of religion drivel continually assaulted at you and others disagreeing with some of this crazy stuff here.
My opinion? Wait, mine stinks too!!!
Personally to me all mankind are fools each and everyone of us. Instead of embracing each other for what our beliefs are we argue and always try to prove our point.
Both are fools. Anyone that isn't willing to go beyond the mind and its incessant, bickering belief systems will always be deluded.
Nope. One is a lack of belief. I know it is a difficult concept to grasp, but try. I am sure you will get it eventually.
lol you have a grouped belief in your lack of belief. Maybe you will someday get the concept.
Ah - so you are telling me what is in my head. Excellent. You should join the christian cult - they are good at knowing what I have in my head. Perhaps if you spent a little time educating yourself you would be able to understand that a lack of belief is not a belief.
I will try and simplify it for you - who knows, maybe it will help.
Do you have a belief that there is no Santa Clause, or do you not have a belief that there is a Santa?
See the difference? Subtle, I know, but you will get there.
What a shame , your condescending manner has lost my respect.
Note Im speaking for myself and not God.
I am hopeful too that your pride wont stop your further learning too.
Oh well ( isnt that how you do it..flick people off)
have a good day
Still avoiding the question huh?
I do not care if I have your respect or not. Your passive aggressive "god says you are a fool, not me," is at the root of the whole discussion.
Pity you cannot see it.
And the marine and I have a history that does not include wanting your opinion on how we speak to each other. Nor will I have offended him as I have apparently offended you.
How very christian of you to judge me when you have no idea.
Bumped this up because I couldnt get back online til now
I owe you an opology as I thought you were responding to my answer ,hence my reply. It was not my intention to interupt you and marine's chat.
Re-read your post and I did answer your question.
Quit splitting hairs about who calls who a fool or not.
I do think a better question might have been
Whats the most foolish thing you have heard or seen.
The Hubpages Religious forum is a perfect example of what Christianity is Not according to Gods TOS
Apology not necessary. I am used to people jumping to conclusions and am not attached to what you think of me.
I am not splitting hairs. You say god calls me a fool - not you. This is not splitting hairs - this is pointing out your cop out.
So - as I am unable to discern your answer - perhaps you could answer it directly again?
Do you believe every word written in the bible?
So, sorry to interupt, but what does TOS mean?
lol I always enjoy our conversations. Not everyday am I questioned on my belief of Santa.
Why do you classify yourself as a group such as atheist's? This is the same as any other group. Grouped ideas/belief. Do you find comfort in a grouped belief or "unbelief"? Why do you need to have a title to what you believe or dont believe?
No - I am not in a group of anything. If you think about it, there is only a term "atheist," because of the believers.
Ah, this is one of the main problems. Everything has a "term" to "separate" everyone. If everyone claimed individualism rather than a term, we would be a lot better off.
There you go. I am an individual and happen not to believe in a divine entity. Because there are a bunch of people that do - they have labeled me "atheist," to differentiate me. In times gone by, this would have landed me in prison or burned at the stake.
I do not have a belief, and I certainly am not a member of anything. Nor do I necessarily associate myself with other "atheists." We just happen to have come to the same conclusion - that a god (and certainly the religious god) does not exist. I see no evidence for one that does not require a pre-existing belief, or a "need to have an answer to the unanswerable."
Thank You for sharing. I don't think anyone can label another unless they accept the label.
I don't believe in religion or the bible either, however I don't claim a label or accept anothers. The only thing that doesn't prove a creator or creators is intervention. Why could there not be creators or creator that doesn't intervene? I don't know, again I leave all belief open to debate.
There is no way to prove that there is a creator/creators unless divine intervention is seen, correct?
What happens in your mind when you rule out possibility of a creator/creators? Are you not limiting your mind the same as the religious does considering faith?
What happens when you leave the idea open to debate? I don't understand why you have a closed view on a creator/creators when it can't be ruled out. Ty
Then you are a fool. And duly labeled.
Ah - there could be a creator that does not intervene. And if I was the creator - I would have thrown everything into the primordial soup and see what came out. That makes sense to me and I could accept that sort of creator. The one with the rules?
Pretty much. The people who tell me evolution is a lie and they know the truth - well, not such a good source of information. They cannot be bothered to educate themselves - so what is their opinion worth. Not much.
I have not ruled out the idea. I am always open to some sort of evidence to this. Any time it turns up, I will accept it. But - I have experienced what these people call "god' and there ain't no such thing. They are mistaken and have not listened to their own being - just the crap they have been fed.
Just because a negative cannot be proved, that does not rule it out. I have connected to what these guys call "god" and it is not a god. It just is, and there are no rules involved. I am always open to evidence to the contrary. But from people who deny evolution as a lie. No thanks........
Because I labeled you thus and you accepted.........
The moment you asked the question. You mean I am an atheist?
lol I will give that to you.
You can't say you don't lead on like you aren't an atheist? You said people label you an atheist for your non belief as if you accept having a label. When I am labeled something, I usually argue it rather than accept the label. I agree with a lot of different people and ideas, this doesn't make me label or accept myself as them because I agree with them.
Anything the mind can conceive is always going to be wrong.
Neither, but I am curious as to why this question singled out only those 2 particular groups. Are they the only ones worth mentioning? What I mean is, it seems to me you had a greater purpose for just singling out those two groups. What your bases for wanting to know? Just to call over 5 billion people fools???
Does that solve our problems towards world peace or something? Really, what am I missing here?
He is pushing his agenda. You don't think he actually wants an answer do you?
Hadn't thought of that one? 5 billion fools. I gues my question then would still hold true. Which "group" would be the greatest? Believers, or atheists.
Oh, but I already know the answer.
If people don't believe in God, that's fine. They should be left to their opinion but they shouldn't blatantly disrespect other peoples religion - same way they wouldn't disrespect other peoples culture.
There are a few Atheists in Forums who do that. I will not call them Fools but a time will come in their lives, when they will willingly admit to themselves, that they are Fools.
If atheist is being a fool, then Im the greatest fool of all! And proud 2 b !
My comments stated - "A few Atheists in Forums".
I don't recall reading any of your posts disrespecting anyone's religion. As stated above, if people don't believe in God, thats Fine. I have Atheists Friends.
I'm merely referring to the few that are disrespectful to other people's religion and you are not one of them.
For some the enlightened one is the greatest fool.
For some the atheist is the greatest fool.
For some the man who can only see divinity in his prophet or religion is the greatest fool.
The greatest fool is the one who thinks he can win an argument on the internet.
Why this obsession with comparative folly? I am interested in the greatest writers, artists, musicians, philosophers, scientists, explorers, athletes, sportsmen, chefs, winemakers, etc, etc.
Leave the fools to their folly, whatever the nature of it. We have nothing to learn from fools.
C. people who believe they can force their ideals and beliefs down someone else's throat.
ding ding ding, I think you own the thread with "c". Less ignorance and more acceptance. Except for acceptance of ignorance.
Ill sign this one, I am a christian but I WILL NOT even talk about my religion unless specifically asked what I believe and why I believe it just like the Bible says we should do.
Although I question the Bible all of the time just because I want to prepare myself if someone was to question me... I sort of lost interest over the years I just leave it like it is and try not to get into arguments like these in person because they can get kind of heated for some strange reason...
Sometimes Ive been guilty of both ,but Id rather be a thought a fool for Christ than for anything less..
Got a question for ya, bc. When you're doing all this alter-ego stuff, you use two browsers, cos you obviously cant keep signing in and signing out every time. That would be a lot of work. Or are you just weird like that, man?
It creates an interest my friend in an otherwords boring forum full of some really crappy topics. Of course I am using 2 browsers but am actually using 5 at this moment.
As for a lot of work this is just a few seconds of light entertainment from what I am actually doing. I wouldnt call myself weird because as I have said before over 25 top hubbers have alter-egos, I just like to make mine public because I don't care a monkeys about the thoughts of others. I mean do you really think I would lose sleep over what you think about me, get real !
Why so insecure, homes. You gonna throw another tantrum, threaten to leave and then apologize and come back again. What a melodramatic queen, you are, badcompany. Lol.
As I recall my drama queen friend I actually talked you one night to actually shut up before you got yerself kicked off the site because you were overreacting like a big child so please don't lecture me with BS that you do yerself. At least I know I am doing it, so as I say think back my friend or has yer memory conventiently forgotten that night ?
Sorry, dont keep tabs. But you're welcome to post the link, though. You know, jar my memory. Lol. Yes, I do put on a bit of drama in here. But Its not to be compared with yours. I mean, whether you care to admit it or not, you've lost a lot of respect in here, people just dont hold you in high esteem as they did anymore, and it might take sometime to get it back. But of course, you dont care what people think, do you?
Boys!!!! Naughty, naughty no arguing stop digging at each other and respect each other or take the boxing match outside the ring. Both of you are highly respected one is not better then another so slow the testosterone down and learn from each other, no go out and play.
Yes ma'am. *grabs his bball and dunks it* seriously though, Jules. BC is my man, I like the guy, he's a humorous son of a gun, but once he loses his humour, he's not so much fun. Just angry and insecure. I know he's better than that.
He is and so are you if you read some of his articles you will find out what is really going on in his life. He is a great man and we only have to be supportive, enough said go off and read. I am certain he also admires you.
The night you were arguing with Mark Knowles and he made a complete fool of you then you went off on one. Both myself and Brenda Scully managed to calm you down. I bring my drama on, as when I say I am leaving I am not, it's an act but hey you wouldnt know about acting or would you Mr future Holywood Director. Of course I lost some peoples respect that night but most unlike you have moved on. I don't care what you think for sure and to be honest most of your comments after mine mainly now consist of the same old alter-ego weirdo crap.
Talking of respect, I have lost any I ever had for you. I once said there is nobody on here I dislike but for you I will make an exception. In future let's just ignore each other on here, unless you have a thing for me !
I can have two seperate windows open,both logged in as me. So I imagine, you could log in as a diff user too? I have done this, to try and keep up with forums in one window, and do hubs in another. I bet you could even have 3 alter egos!!!
I think that a fool is anyone that does not know what he/she believes in or why they believe in it. They just do because SOMEBODY told them to. I think that there are as many athiest as there are because us bible thumping Christians are setting an example that is not worth following. We cain't even agree as to what the true is, so what makes us think that we can "Teach" a nonbeliever to believe like us when as a whole we don't know what that is, or why. When we point at someone calling them a fool there are three fingers pointing back at ourselves.
we are all fools in the eyes of God! That's why he created us, to have a Big Laugh
How Foolish to Believe that YOU HAVE NOT BEEN SOLD...
CJ Refers to the Power of the Scriptures.
Yes... The Power of Words is immense.
How Best to SELL the words?
Who would be the ones to target that Sale to?
Are You Not Attempting to SELL HERE?
THE OLDEST PROFESSION - Selling.
The Art (Skills) of Selling = How one puts their message across!
The ORIGINAL BIBLE was incomplete and as such required new words to be added to enable it to be suitable for sale!
It ALSO REQUIRED TRANSLATION so that:
(A) Could be understood by potential purchasers of it
(B) Could be promoted to FOOLS, WISEMEN & PUBLISHERS
(C) Could be sufficiently ambiguous to handle any Sales Objection
(D) Could be an ILLUSTRATION of the POWER OF WORDS (Alone).
ONLY A FOOL WOULD DISAGREE THAT: As mere people of various cultures, languages, intellect and education... HISTORY SHOWS THAT: We are destined to Never ACCURATELY INTERPRETE the Words of Others in the CONTEXT OF THE WRITER.
Is that Not Why We Write?
OR Are Some Driven Only To Sell?
The Arrogant Believer (either way)IS the Fool.
I am just as repulsed if not highly irritated by certain scripture spamming people.
That same scripture is for everyone ,not just believers,although yes, their are many who beleive they are somehow exempt..
Ah - now we are back to you making fun of me for not subscribing to your irrational beliefs. So - back to the question you have once again avoided.
Do you believe every word in the bible?
I just posted this in another thread. I think it fits well in this thread too.
For verse 17 think of the plagues of Egypt when Pharaoh wouldn't let His people go.
Quite right - I have been contacted by quite a few people who have thanked me for helping them deal with the cognitive dissonance they were facing trying to reconcile an irrational belief system with the facts.
When you think about it - a god just makes no sense. They feel better in themselves and I am happy to have helped them.
It sounds like we are all fools. This reminds me of the joke about the guy that says to the priest, "I'd attend the services but they are filled with hypocrites."
The priest replies, "Well there is always room for one more."
I think it is okay for them to disagree. People expressing their divergent opinions is what makes the world go round . People always having to agree is sort of milk toast boring.
He is not insecure and you are not insecure. I just thought the two of you were bantering. Sometimes when people agree too much that concerns me because I think they are compromising their true thoughts such to look conciliatory .
I am insecure, I will give him that but it went beyond banter and that is my last word on this topic. But cheers SP and AE, I can only agree I have lost respect on here and yes I am insecure, does that make me an alien, nooo, it makes me honest and just another human being, no more than that !
I've got my flaws too. Hey, I'm a Mindless relentless! Dude, quit being such a dame about this and grab a beer. You still gonna give me the silent treatment in here, huh? You still da man, BC. You know it. I know it. So quit f***ing around!
Nahhhh course not ya big dipstick I wud miss yer damn banter, jeeez why do you think I picked a female alter-ego, because I am a big dame, no hard feelings on my part man. Lets just forget it ok !
All humans have insecurities, and each of us show these in different ways. Life is just way too short for us to take this all too seriously .
I am not taking it seriously, I am in future just ignoring a hubber on a website !
I think that is my fault for saying no one should take it seriously. I guess you both were just having fun. Sorry for getting involved.
No don't be silly I am glad you came into it, you made me step back and think, both you and AE of course. But hey tis only 615pm here and I can't even blame the drink for my arguing, oh well that's entertainment for ya
Lol Cheers my man, the BC is off out but am glad we ended on a good drink, enjoy yer night my friend
I think the both of you are just trying to get people to look at your Hubs.
I guess it worked.
Yep, I didn't say there was anything wrong with it SweetiePie.
People who start religious debate forum threads like this could be high up in the fool stakes...oh and Jesus too, his long beard just looked so foolish, perhaps the biggest fools are those who choose to believe fantastical stories as fact....
Religion is so old school, why don't we come up with something else that everyone can worship without hate and all that "my Gods bigger than yours" cack!
I'd happily worship a games console that played many different games throughout the year...ahh yes that sounds much better....
I still think yer the greatest fool though
I prefer to call it stalking, makes me sound more creepy than I am and with my alter-ego I can follow you on two threads. But I see tonight boredom seems to rule the forums as Religion takes over and the same old crap is poured out.
Why people air their religious beliefs is beyond me to be honest, me I actually do believe in God but having lived in Belfast through the troubles and seen people die in the name of Religion I don't really care what they do or don't believe in.
To be honest I think some use it as some sort of twisted game just to wind really decent people up and think they are both smart and clever in doing so, I find it pathetic !
Thi is a religion forum, CG ,where religion is aired. .if it smells bad,...I'm sorry. It's not me. And yes, it's pathetic, but I think it's funny as well. You know mw
I am sure if you were bundled into a car at 19 years old, hooded, driven into the woods and shot twice through the head because you were not of the same religion that would be funny but for some reason as it was a friend of mine I just couldnt raise a laugh that day. Religion stinks and is resonsible for most wars and even on here responsible for most heated arguments and the really funny thing is most religious people are total hypocrites. Anyway rant over !
I don't think I deserve this rant ! It could have been enough with a tantrum !
A basic description of who I think God is.
I believe in a higher being than my self. this would be kinda arrogant to think that after millions of years that the universe has been in existence that mankind is the top of the totem pole.
I also believe that this higher being has communicated with mankind (Adam and Abraham etc). Abraham called this higher power God. God gave us the 10 commandments as good advice as to how everyone should stay out of trouble while enjoying life to the fullest.
We didn't follow that advise very well.
I believe that God developed a new plan to help us out, he unselfishly sacrificed a part of himself to benefit more of us. God created all things, bugs and the birds that eat them, and eagles that eat the rabbits and birds. The rabbit thinks that the eagle is evil
God created good and evil.
GOD CREATED LIFE and death. and left the middle part up to us. I believe that he created many doors to go through when we die, and something behind those doors. I do not think that this description should anger anyone. All that I did was to leave off the window dressing, We can dress him up however we want to and he will still be who he is
..the Great ..I AM ...
The true "fool" is the person who refuses to see the other person's perspective. A "fool" doesn't take the time to ask him/herself why he/she believes what he/she believes.
realy am sorry thought I was on the define god thread, I got stupid
Don't have to apologize. you're welcome here if you want to have a laugh
It lookslike nobody's laughing now. Everyone became seriousssss. Sorry
don't do that on my acount. I like fun but too slow typing to keep up though. and can't remember any jokes right now.
I have no clue if either one is a fool, but this thread did remind me of a fascinating occurrence from early 1973 in Spokane, Washington.
My second wife and I had just recently hooked up. She (Carolyn) worked as a secretary for a boat trailer manufacturer, as did her friend (Gloria). They were hard at work one morning when what we euphemistically called a Jesus Freak walked through the front door. This young man immediately demanded to know if they believed in God.
Rather than call Security to throw him out so they could get back to work, they politely told him:
Gloria: "I'm an atheist. God doesn't exist."
Carolyn: "I'm a Christian. I also believe astrology has validity."
The erstwhile follower of the God of Love exploded. He verbally attacked...no, not the atheist, but the avowed Christian who DARED to include (gasp!) that ol' Devil ASTROLOGY (choke! wheeze!) in her box of mental concepts.
I chuckled from this one, I hate that people get their religion all mixed up. You are also not supposed to pass judgement on others but look at the satanist man we did that! just kidding, but seriously I like the idea of astrology, numerology ETC. They are kind of cool and interesting
Those who base their beliefs on a literal reading of the bible.
"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." Deuteronomy 22:28-29
28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
Please you need to use King James Version as the New King James Version or whatever you used looses it meaning as there cannot be a direct translation as such.
This was written for a time in which that was a punishment befitting for the crime while right now... not so much, also you remember women were property and did not have any real rights as a human being so this was payment to the father for TAKING his daughter but I understand people not wanting to accept this being in the Bible
It sounds like a good deterrent for "fornication". Of course, it is widely acceptable in our society today.
Try a few quotes from the lips of Jesus. You seem to be stuck in the OT.
Not at all stuck in the OT. The NT is not much better although they cut back on some of the fire and brimstone.
How about all the lies Jesus told for starters?
And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." (Matthew 21:21-22
How about getting that mountain to move believers? Feeling up to it?
I doubt you can call that statement a lie. It's a conditional directive, using the word "if", you have (that level of faith).
Why would I want to move the mountain anyway. I like them where they are. Perhaps to prove something? Nah, don't have anything to prove.
OK, I like that one here is another.
Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8
You can preach to me like this all day. I LOVE this stuff. One of my favorite (promises) for praying.
You ought to try it sometime. SERIOUSLY!
been there, done that, then I started to read wider. SERIOUSLY!
The mind is an amazing "machine". It will grow stronger in whatever you feed into it. (I know you know that stuff). So, it is up to each person to "filter" what they put into it. The old GIGO principle applies here.
That's why I am ok with other's beliefs (or lack of) because they are each responsible for their own lives. I am not responsible for others, nor are they accountable to me. (did I express all that OK?)
If you don't have anything to prove - why are you always arguing your case?
And if you can actually prove it - like it says you can in the bible - why hasn't any one ever done so?
Could it be because the bible is lying? Seems a logical answer to me.
This question may be the worst question that could possibly be asked...how can you classify the beliefs of people into fools and not fools? Belief systems are relative just like space and time. There is no right or wrong answer because it all depends on what you judge as proof and proof is relative as well. It's a stupid question that can't be answered. And yet here people are trying to answer them. May I ask why?
It seems like there are a lot of christians in this discussion and perhaps vocally on hubpages...where are the jews, muslims, buddhists, hindus, etc... voicing their opinion? And yes I am new and don't usually speak up but this topic prompted me to.
Time will reveal all. Believe me, they too are here. And some much weirder beliefs too. Trust me. Well, even if you don't, you will find out for yourself.
PS, put on your "thick skin" if you are touchy, because it can seem a bit rough sometimes.
If you are interested, I have written a short hub on that.
Good you are having your say, and I must say that apart from 3 extremist Muslims and a couple of Jews, that seems to be a fare assessment. The extremists are easy to spot, they have no hubs, no profiles and less credibility!
It takes time and education, but we can decide to read broadly once we understand how much there is to know, and I am talking outside of religion.
You did put your reply in a more acceptable form.
Aka, you know I agree it is bad, but what is worse is when religionists replies are assumptive. You may notice that most atheists only reply to assumptive statements that are exclusive or inclusive.
If I were to say, "God loves you" (all inclusive) as a positive comment, it seems to attract either no response, or some off the wall, "yea RIGHT... what about such-n-such?" attacks.
I have copped a lot of abusive comments no matter the intent was neutral, or positive.
My observation has been that people read posts through their own emotional lenses, and see things there that are not.
All I can say is that is like telling me the tooth fairy loves me! I do not believe, not at all, I do not believe even a bit. It is meaningless to speak of a god, when the sources of those beliefs are so terribly wrong in my view. The old and new testament, the Quoran and all the other tomes speak of a psychotic murderous entity offering endless threats and punishments, the same tactics used against the ignorant till this day in many countries by the churches. It makes me sad to see.
Exactly my point. You bring to the table all your prejudices, and filter the words on the screen accordingly.
Your rejection of God, or anything related, is deemed tooth fairy stuff. And is actually totally reasonable, and expected.
See ernest - you are just showing your prejudices. It is not possible that you gave it serious consideration and made a rational decision.
Which is just a nice way of telling you that you are a fool. Which is a little difficult to stomach from some one who rejects scientific evidence as not having enough "proof."
Oh, I see. You edited the post while I was writing.
Thanks for toning down you anger, and only using the word "sad".
Hey, you believed as you do, long before I came along, and you may continue ,long after we "part company". Don't get mad at me for believing what you reject.
And what about the points I have made? Are they "just my prejudices" I may have some different understanding, but I have read your religious sources, you may not have seen what I base my information on, yet you pre judge?
Basically, yes they are. Because the same writings (points as you call them) do not have the same impact on me. You certainly high lite certain themes from (mostly OT) scripture. I see these through "different eyes".
But having said that, how many friends or relatives, close to you has religion killed, or destroyed?
It's like blaming all Germans, for what Nazi's did in WW2. Or holding all whites, for what redneck KKK did to African Americans.
Bring it closer to home. You are to blame for all the Aborigines being dispossessed, killed and stolen. etc.
I think that's caller racism, or prejudice.
Are you calling me a racist because I live in Australia?
NO!, because I don't hold you (personally, or this current generation) responsible for the actions of the past. We have moved past that. So, also, the quotes you use from the OT, are PAST, and not relevant for the current generation.
But thank you for re-inforcing my statement about reading through your own prejudices. You obviously read accusation into example.
No I did not, I am simply showing you the nature of scripture, but you got that religious glow again. And why the reference to the boomerang and the reference to racism?
Boomerang? You got me there. What Boomerang.
Gee whizz man? I used the term racism as a way to give example. Keep it in context. It was used in three different scenarios.
A lot of Aussies called me a "wog", but I don't hold ALL Ausies guilty of prejudice.
Am I getting through yet?
Please read the post again, slowly. I said "I could", (meaning I don't because only some did".
Well, that goes to show you how long I have lived here. (Much, Much, more than 10yrs).
A few countries at religious war now, (according to Time Magazine, and there are many more.
just a few.
You have avoided most questions and apart from biblical references you have nothing but your belief and no interest in truth that I can see.
You add value when you learn from others.
dj already has all the answers he needs.
Soon he will add some links to the massive amount of archeological proof that confirms the bible - but was not discovered or faked by a religionist.
I have only ever found one reference to jesus outside the bible. Yet the "fact" of his existence is accepted and they even claim it is proven by outside sources. Where are these sources exactly?
Reference to Jesus outside the Bible;
http://www.israelect.com/reference/Will … ahshua.htm
Antiquities of the Jews
Pliny the Younger
Lacian of Samosata
The Babylonian Talmud
The Nag Hammadi Library
Pilate's report to Caesar
LOLO - Most of these are written by religionists.
Got any actual evidence - you know - the historical proof that dj was talking about - most of these are pieced together scribblings that are in dispute because they were doctored to suit by the religionist that "discovered," them. There are even a couple of guys currently awaiting trial in Egypt for forging references onto ancient artifacts.
Deary me - you guys are desperate.
Not from the Christian religion Mark
Flavus Josephus - Jewish source.
Antiquities of the Jews - Jewish source.
Pliny the Younger - lawyer, author, and magistrate of Ancient Rome.
Tacitus - senator and a historian of the Roman Empire.
Maimonides - Rabbi, Jewish source.
Mara Bar-Scrapion - Syriac writer, non-Jewish, non-Christian.
Lacian of Samosata - Assyrian rhetorician
The Babylonian Talmud - Jewish source
The Nag Hammadi Library - Gnostic Gospels
Pilate's report to Caesar - Roman governor to Roman Emperor.
It's nice that you believe at least one of these sources. That means you are progressing. God bless ya
The man named Jesus existed. It's silly to deny that. The thing is, Was he the Son of God ? I think this is what atheist want you to prove
And I'm not begining an argument. Only saying
The athiest wouldnt believe it if Jesus were standing right in front of them claiming to be the son of God.
They didnt then ,they dont now!
Nothing really new.
You are right tantrum, it's silly to deny that the historical Jesus existed. Thanks for recognizing that.
We can't prove anything to anyone that does not want to see it. They have to see it themselves.
But as long as atheists keep coming, Christians will keep trying to show them. The fact that atheists keep coming makes you wonder whether they are questioning themselves. Maybe in reality they are agnostic instead of atheist. That's progress.
Not really make money. I am an atheist. I am just trying to stop the spread of hatred you guys continue to do. Maybe then we can become what we are capable of? Who knows - it is worth a try.
I have lots of people every week who write to me thanking me for helping them let go of their irrational beliefs.
Nice to see you coming back and slowly seeing that your beliefs are false. I know you keep coming here to learn,. eventually the blinkers will be removed and you will see what a mistake you have made.
The fools are the people who don't know the difference between what they know and what they believe.
It's easy believe anything that is convenient or makes you feel better in the short term. To genuinely know something is a life's labour.
My opinion is that 60% of christians don't believe really in The Bible And God / Jesus, and that 60% Atheist are afraid as hell of not believing in anything. That's the reason of all these arguments.
Lost in the religion forum, where everything is possible ! LOL!
Why do so many desire a title, believer or non-believer?
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