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What do you think has driven atheists to hate religion?

  1. 0
    sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago

    Maybe it's getting up early on Sundays!

    1. Marisa Wright profile image93
      Marisa Wrightposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Atheists do not hate religion per se.  They are frustrated and angered by blinkered religious people who don't think for themselves or apply rational thought to their beliefs.

      1. 0
        sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I agree!

      2. borge_009 profile image59
        borge_009posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You're right.  I agree.

      3. Nik Aberle profile image61
        Nik Aberleposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        That, and the fact that those people tend to shove religion down an atheists throat whether they want to hear it or not. Funny how it's not OK for you to question a religious person's faith, but if you don't agree with them you're fair game.

      4. starme77 profile image87
        starme77posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thank you , well said smile

      5. karobi profile image70
        karobiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        marisa wright, i completely disagree with you, the reason is simple, they are the one that lack understanding. remember the letters kills but the spirit gives life.  is their poor undersanding of spiritual matters that is the cause.

      6. allenvaega profile image61
        allenvaegaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I agree with you Marisa...not only are the Religionists lacking in originality, but they are uneducated in the origins of their Faith...(those lucky ones who are educated are actually Spiritual as opposed to religious). Athiests view of Religion is a natural result of a history marred with deceitful intentions and propaganda geared to manipulate and control societies future development in all areas of life.

        1. earnestshub profile image87
          earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Welcome to hubpages Allen! I can see we will be allies in these forums. smile

        2. 0
          Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          my question then would be this:

          why are 'atheists' solely concentrated on religion -especially one section, Christianity- and not the whole of the Ism itself.
          Is atheism as biased as the other cults?

          Let's put the flashlight of scrutiny on the WHOLE of the Ism and not single out one group. Else we might as well get the Third Reich in here and start singling out just jews. Or the right wing liberal theists, singling out radical extremists.

          There is a lot of hogs-snot being tossed into the salad.
          Seems neither the Ism or its splinter factions -including atheism, anti-theism- understands the fundamental basics of their own beliefs. lol.

          What a funny funny world we live in.

          1. earnestshub profile image87
            earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I'd like to point out here, that not believing in any of the sky fairies requires no "ism"

            1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
              Mikel G Robertsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Athe-ISM??????

              1. 0
                Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                lol get `em Mikel.

                1. AdsenseStrategies profile image72
                  AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  There is nowhere you can go and get a list of doctrines held by atheists on a whole rafter of issues. This is not true of religion.

                  Christianity varies on many points, but ultimately it is a position on the "fact" of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

                  Atheism... actually, there is no such thing as "atheism"... maybe that's the problem; it's a word that actually refers to "something" that doesn't exist... I mean, there is no set of "atheism" doctrines.

                  Theoretically there could be atheists that do not believe in evolution, for example.

                  1. tantrum profile image59
                    tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    I am an Atheist who don't believe in evolution.

                  2. 0
                    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    really? so by doctrines you mean published literature, yes?
                    be careful, you might slip and bruise your hip there, fella.

                    How would an atheist know what a doctrine entails, without experiencing it in its fullness?

                    LOL. I am sorry to laugh at you, but 'atheism' by definition is a part of the Ism -an opposing view of the Ism or any elements within. disregarding or opposing an element of the Ism states that one is apart of it.

                    But yes, since the supposed atheist has no doctrine or published proof, how -by pure critique- can you or they expect anyone to regard your position.
                    If you have substantial claims, can provide proof or evidence of that claim -strictly and only from your perspective.
                    Do not dare use another doctrine to provide a basis for your own, whether or not to defend or dismiss.

                    Show me and I will retract my statement. Else, my stance is that both you the atheist and theist are redundant applications of the Need To Know. Duality. Rhetoric.

              2. earnestshub profile image87
                earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Like I said.

            2. 0
              Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Exactly! Case in point. The dismissal of the Ism pertaining to said 'sky faire' denotes causality of the Ism.
              Try all you like, ex-religionista, ( though friend and humorous Earnest), you're still stuck in that Ism!

              1. AdsenseStrategies profile image72
                AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                For me "ism" implies rituals, and patterns of behaviour followed by acolytes. An atheist could be a Chinese Communist or an American capitalist, a British punk rocker or an Indian scientist...

                1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
                  Mikel G Robertsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  so could a christian...

                  Christianity is not Religion...it is merely one small part of a greater whole. Replacing the word Religion for Christian when you're really only talking about christianity is confusing at best. What I mean by this is saying 'Religionists' are brain washed by the bible...what about Pagans...they are religionists, and the statement therefore only makes sense when you use the correct wording, I.e. Christians are brain washed by the Bible.(or Muslims are brain washed by the Quran...etc.)

                  1. AdsenseStrategies profile image72
                    AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    A Christian cannot be a Marxist.

                    Christianity is a religion.

                    I am not only talking about Christianity.

                    I have never said religionists are brainwashed by the Bible. If I have, I take it back, because I think things are much more complicated than that.

                2. 0
                  Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  hello? a the ISM ! anyone, anyone. lol.
                  this is fun. no really, it is for me.

                  1. AdsenseStrategies profile image72
                    AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    roll Communism, Socialism, liberalism, conservatism, Marxism

          2. wyanjen profile image87
            wyanjenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Christianity is what we talk about because christians are the people we are talking to.
            There are a few gnostics, Buddhists and others roaming around but the dominant religion here is christianity.
            It's not a discrimination thing, it's a demographic thing.

            1. 0
              Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Yet without logical foundation -meaning true critique consciousness (what some cal critical thinking), precisely and emphatically discriminate, on purpose. Seems like atheist -as viewed much here- are solely interested in one particular class of beliefs. Which makes them no better than their counterparts.

              Ironic, but not surprising, since what most consider atheism, is not a disbelief in the opposing principles of a religion or all religions, it is a pollination of another, having no sustainable ideology other than to say, no your wrong and I can prove it. Which is precisely what the other elements of the Ism -on both sides, mind you- do with great expression.

              Ah, Duality, when will you finally get it? Even with your notion of Quality, you still lack the basic building blocks of understanding.

        3. 61
          starg8t1posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Well said.  I agree 100% on your perspective.

      7. cjhunsinger profile image70
        cjhunsingerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        As an avowed and life long atheist, I have long learned that one person can not speak for others even though philosophies are similiar.  I personally do not hate religion.  Hate I think is a theistic character trait which I have absolutely no regard for.  My particular form of atheism is predicated upon the individual and his actions.  More in tune with the Bill of Rights.  Conversely theistic principals as my research would indicate, are imbedded deep within the emotional structure of man.  Hence, fear, hatred, fight or flight as opposed to the reasoned and objective approach of Atheism.  In my blogs (hubpages) I  have outlined and defined what Atheism is and is not.  The definitions given certainly reflect the optimum of human behavior and conduct and like all good things are to be strived for.  Life is the optimum of human existence.  There are few who understand that and consquently for far too many life is abused and life is wasted in fear, guilt, shame and the sin of theistic mythologies.

    2. World Marketing profile image60
      World Marketingposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      LoL

    3. 61
      (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I probably get more accomplished Sunday morning than you do all week. And, while I'm out there enjoying myself with whatever I'm doing, I think about the poor saps wasting their lives away worshiping their imaginary gods when they could also be enjoying their lives with their families instead of instilling fear and dogma into their minds.  big_smile

      1. Shadesbreath profile image90
        Shadesbreathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Just to play Devil's advocate (oh how delicious is this particular irony), I know lots of religious people who truly enjoy going to church and being involved with the sense of community it provides, etc.  They bring their families with them and do stuff together.  So, while I agree that the fear and dogma are at work in the belief system, the community and the joy and accomplishments of it (assuming they do more than sing and holler and writhe around in ecstasy of the lord, etc.) are not negated by the underlying superstition.

        big_smile

        1. 61
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          The bliss you observe is one of ignorance taught by the underlying superstition. How is that a good thing?

          1. Shadesbreath profile image90
            Shadesbreathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            The bliss you experience reading a book or watching a movie is bliss spawned by fiction that plays on your hopes, fears etc.

            The bliss you experience drinking a beer or whatever else is spawned by creations of mankind.

            The bliss you experience riding a roller coaster or driving in a fast car is bliss got by means devised by men.

            What makes you get to decide what bliss is acceptable bliss and what bliss is not?

            1. 61
              (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I'm not saying one bliss is acceptable over another. I'm simply saying that bliss generated from religion is one generated from indoctrination and delusion.

              1. Shadesbreath profile image90
                Shadesbreathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Well, I don't disagree.

                But, bliss is bliss.  If you can get some along the road to your grave, I reckon you ought to take it.

                1. 61
                  (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I would NEVER accept bliss from delusion, that is intellectually dishonest and contradicts everything the rational and reasonable take into consideration.

                  1. Shadesbreath profile image90
                    Shadesbreathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    The operative term in your statement is "I."

                    My point was that IF you can get some bliss, you take it.  Clearly YOU cannot get some bliss from that particular source.  That does not render it no longer a source of bliss.  There are other people plodding down the road to graveyards too.

    4. qwark profile image62
      qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      This question is meaningless and dumb.
      Of course one must consider the "source" when one considers it.

      1. 0
        SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Questions can be dumb? I thought only answers can be considered dumb.

    5. pylos26 profile image76
      pylos26posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      People like you?

    6. pisean282311 profile image59
      pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      is it that all atheist hate religion?..i dont think so..i know some atheist who think religion is good to maintain order in the society...religion has done lot of good  to the human beings but over obessed with religion making my way only way for all and trying to impose is what makes matter worse...religion should be strictly a private matter...

    7. 0
      cosetteposted 6 years ago in reply to this



      i don't think "atheists", or individuals who disbelieve in the Christian God hate religion - i think religion hates them. you know, all those questions and whatnot...

    8. 0
      Dog On A Missionposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      This video sums it up nicely for me:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

      God is all powerful, but he is REALLY bad with money.

    9. 68
      paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Hi friends

      The Atheists hate religion mostly in their own confusion and partly due to unreasonable concepts of the religionists.

      Thanks

      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

      1. AdsenseStrategies profile image72
        AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        It might have something to do with the destruction wreaked by various religions over many centuries. I did not say this JUSTIFIES it, but it might explain it.

    10. Paul Wingert profile image80
      Paul Wingertposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Athhiests do not hate religion(s). What drives them away from organized religion is common sense and the ability to think for themselves.

      1. 68
        paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Hi friend Paul Wingert

        Please go on any Atheist forum and see for yourself. You might be a good Atheists, it is OK with me.

        Thanks

        I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

    11. Rayalternately profile image58
      Rayalternatelyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Atheists hate religionists in the same way that religionists hate atheists. The beliefs are poles apart and, as is often the case when views are so diametrically opposed, rational debate simply doesn't occur.

      To ridicule each other is the easy option, and human nature being what it is, the easy option is most prevalent on these forums, as it is elsewhere.

    12. goldenpath profile image82
      goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      me

      1. Pandoras Box profile image81
        Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Short Baldy, my humble friend, what is the rationale behind preachers not having to pay income tax? Or doing so at a special discount? Can you explain the situation to me? I won't argue about it, with you here in this thread at any rate, just seeking info. Maybe there's a good reason behind it.

      2. Pandoras Box profile image81
        Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Oh yeah and don't be ridiculous. The world does not revolve around of you, you are not the reason atheists dislike religion.

        1. alternate poet profile image76
          alternate poetposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          You still here bashing away !!   and I thought GP had been promoted to bald-shortie at his own request !  tut tut I go away fro a few hours and the whole thing has fallen to pieces big_smile

          1. Pandoras Box profile image81
            Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Oh yeh! Thanks for the reminder. I shall edit immediately.

        2. goldenpath profile image82
          goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I'm too short for the world to revolve around me.  Rather, it moves in spite of me. 

          What's this discount thing?  I must have missed something.  I am a citizen like any other in the United States.  I have absolutely no preferencial treatment for any status in a Church calling.  It just doesn't happen - at least not in my faith.  Part of our foundation is to serve the people and NOT to be served.  The only discounts I'm aware of are the sale items at the grocery store. smile

          By the way, the "me" was intended as a joke.  Wow, even a simple two-letter word is used against me.  It's just two letters, not even in graphite but cyberspace.  It contains no threat, attack or even physical paper in which to form an airplane to throw. 

          The sun is out and it's spring!  Let's all just get along! smile  Put all religion and condescension aside on the forums and just celebrate the common foundation of the love of writing. smile

          1. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Oh - come on goldenpath. We have all seen enough of your "Woe is me" Oh Woe! Poor me - attacked again without provocation! By the dancing fools who do not see my wisdom and humbleness for teh true greatness that I think I am!" statements not to immediately see that as a joke.

            And honestly - People like you, would be more accurate. wink


            Yay! - no argument there. Like you - I am working on losing a few winter pounds. Quit smoking in September and - boy - did I put the pounds on this winter. Mountain biking for me. big_smile

          2. Pandoras Box profile image81
            Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Whatever about your me. I'm avoiding dumb drama these days, you can keep it.

            And oh yeah I forgot LDS has cleverly figured out a way to not have to pay their preachers. Not like typical christian churches. LOL

            But thanks for answering.

            1. Jerami profile image77
              Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              LSD has enlightened many souls.
                LDS also claims the enlightnment of many souls.

              1. Pandoras Box profile image81
                Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Whoops! LOL

                Thank you, Jerami. I'll fix that asap.

                1. Jerami profile image77
                  Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  No you had it right the first time,  no just kidding I think?
                  I've done that my self.By accident

    13. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I was an atheist and I hated being threatened.

    14. Don W profile image84
      Don Wposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      A slightly loaded question don't you think?

    15. AdsenseStrategies profile image72
      AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      This theory, spoken in jest, actually seems right to me... wink

    16. 0
      riddle666posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      May be it's the nonsense sprouted by theists, especially the monotheistic ones.

      1. OutWest profile image60
        OutWestposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Maybe it's a lack of responsibility on the atheists' part so they blame religion for everything. lol

        1. 0
          riddle666posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Yes yes the atheists always blame satan for all the wrongs. roll
          And Christians, Muslims or jews never killed on burned at stake for religion,  all wild accusations by this atheists.

    17. 0
      Deepes Mindposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Atheists hate religion for one reason... A lot of the people that practice it. It has nothing to do with God directly (because the don't believe in a god or gods). It is the people who claim to believe one thing but act in a manner totally opposite of what they believe when they encounter anyone of differing beliefs. Religion (organized primarily) is the catalyst for a lot of things that happen in the world and history because an individualized philosophy has almost given way to the "mob mentality" of thinking. Society primarily has worked off of the premise that if enough people can agree on something then it's ok and must be correct and conveniently forget that a lie is a lie no matter how many people believe it.. If you doubt that, go speak to some of Bernie Madoff's clients

  2. tantrum profile image59
    tantrumposted 6 years ago

    It's unhealthy ! mad

    Hi sneak !! big_smile

    1. 0
      sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Hey Tantrum! Hows our star?smile

  3. Colebabie profile image61
    Colebabieposted 6 years ago

    A lot of people hate religion. Or other's religions. I wouldn't say atheists are one of them.

    1. 0
      sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      ok.

  4. Hokey profile image60
    Hokeyposted 6 years ago

    Thank God I'm a Buddhist.  lol lol

    lol  lol   wink

    1. tantrum profile image59
      tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Free Will
      lol

  5. Ohma profile image81
    Ohmaposted 6 years ago

    I would not say that they hate religion. I think they just hate being treated like there is something wrong with them because they choose not to believe.

    1. Nik Aberle profile image61
      Nik Aberleposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I second this statement.

  6. Pandoras Box profile image81
    Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago

    I don't hate religion or the religious. I am not satisfied with having religious viewpoints legally imposed on the rest of us, and I am not content with seeing the great promise our country started out with fade away due to religious influence.

    1. Nik Aberle profile image61
      Nik Aberleposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Isn't it funny how nowadays everyone is claiming that America is a christian nation when in fact the majority of the founding fathers believed religion to be a very bad thing when mixed with government.

      1. 0
        SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this



        Isn't even funnier that 50 years ago no one in their right mind would say that about the Founding Fathers. Of course history can be rewritten many times over.

        1. Pandoras Box profile image81
          Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          True but the original documents speak for themselves.

          1. 0
            SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            You mean documents like the Jefferson Bible?

            1. Pandoras Box profile image81
              Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Letters, journals, notes... Lots of stuff Mr. Dent, lots and lots of personal paper documents.

      2. Pandoras Box profile image81
        Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Shhh! Texas finally figured that out, so now they're rewriting history and dumping Jefferson altogether. I'm hoping they don't look too closely at the others, or out will go several more!

      3. Pandoras Box profile image81
        Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        And let me say Welcome to Hubpages, Nik.

      4. Valerie F profile image61
        Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Being Christian and opposing the establishment of a state religion are not mutually exclusive.

        1. AdsenseStrategies profile image72
          AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Agreed (and well said)

  7. Cagsil profile image83
    Cagsilposted 6 years ago

    What do you think has driven atheists to hate religion?

    I wouldn't use the word "hate", simply because many people, including atheists, see "religion" as dangerous and unhealthy.

    They see it happening every time a religious person brings up or mentions "GOD" or personal "GOD" or your "GOD" or whatever "GOD" and it drives them to bring it to religious folks that- the belief they have formed was based on a lie.

    Many refuse to accept it, because of their religious teaching.

    However, after a thorough test of the doctrines of religion, it becomes evident the atheists are on to something. As a tester of those doctrines, I agree. However, I don't belong to any religion.

    Just my thoughts on the topic. wink

    1. brianzen profile image60
      brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      How do you feel about non-christian religions if I may ask?

      1. Cagsil profile image83
        Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        What about them? As long as it is not a mystical "GOD" concept, I don't much care. There beliefs will at least be bound to reality at least and that's better than paying homage to nothing or something imaginary in some other realm of supposed existence.

        1. brotheryochanan profile image59
          brotheryochananposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          But thats the point dear boy, your other beliefs bound in reality are nothing and they simply will not help you in time of need, secure an afterlife, offer hope in the dreariest of situations. You are totally alone with your belief, whatever it is, if it is not the jewish historical god then that persons belief is vapor. And i know this hurts to hear it again but how many times must christians not lie and tell the truth to questions such as these. Simply put, if you do not want to hear it, do not ask. Athiests only hate because their belief does not stop them from hating, killing, murder, stealing.. if they can find a reason to have sex with a mans wife or daughter or both they will justify themselves. Not saying christians are perfect but i am willing to say, more of us than you think are above all these things because we believe in a centuries old god, bound up and tied in with the jewish history through magnificent signs and wonders and truths and goodness and glory and none other god can do that. So don't ask, go into forums you athiests feel more comfy in.

          I am brother yochanan and i am peaceful christian who knows god very well. God loves you inspite of you sarcasms and denials but he is a god of judgment because he hates sin, it destroys lives and ruins people and makes society unstable! How do i know this? I just said it, i know god very well.

    2. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Sorry to interrupt the NTK factory workers, but am curious as to which/what 'tests' were prescribed ( literally or figuratively ) and what were the results of the present, living, 7+ billion organic priori surveyed. If you would be so kind and humane, as to indulge this non-atheist & non-theist, please.

      Thanks so much.

  8. 59
    foreignpressposted 6 years ago

    It's a form of self-hate. Christianity, for example, teaches that you should love yourself as well as others. This is not the same as being prideful. Instead, it's to love who you are. Obviously, those who have a hard time with feeling good about themselves will choose atheism. An atheistic philosophy is like hiding in the shadows and avoiding the light of being spiritually open and free.
       Atheism is also another form of anger at the world. After all, how can anyone love God when there is so much hunger, death, and abuse on this planet? But God gave us a mind and a free will. He is more concerned with everlasting life than with day-to-day affairs of a very troubled flock. What's interesting is that we have the power to create a utopia on this planet -- a heaven on earth, you might say. But we are too spiritually weak to overcome the powers of Satan who, at present, rules this planet.

    1. brianzen profile image60
      brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Read my stuff and ask me whatever you like, I see things differently all of the time, I believe most people have just responded to stimuli and conditioning.  And really cannot choose until they are rid of those conditions.

    2. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      You're funny! lol lol lol

      1. brianzen profile image60
        brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I think they really believe that stuff and that is not meant to sound critical but how does that happen, going from religious to "here comes the devil?"

    3. Marisa Wright profile image93
      Marisa Wrightposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I think the opposite is true.  It's often those who lack self-confidence or self-belief that feel the need to seek out religion to give some meaning to their life. Atheists tend to be fairly strong-willed people who don't feel the need of a mental crutch.

      An atheist who didn't love humanity would have a hard time finding any meaning in existence, because as far as they're concerned, that's all their is.

      1. 0
        wordscribe41posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Well said.  I don't HATE religion at all.  I do, however hate the flyers and door to door praise the Lording...  I think it can't be said better than Marisa.

      2. World Marketing profile image60
        World Marketingposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I agree

      3. 59
        foreignpressposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Those of you who have an atheistic bent need to try an exercise: Sit back, relax, take a deep breath, and think to long ago when you were very young. Let the thoughts come slowly. Allow them to merge into your conscious being. Remember the smells, sounds, and feelings that cascaded into a small and wondrous child. At this point, you will recognize an event that turned you into an atheist. It might seem small and insignificant -- like seeing a spider gobble a fly. But it was this negative experience that transformed you. The good news is that what has been done can be undone.

        1. 61
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          True. Religious indoctrination can be undone by simply using ones brain to think. smile

    4. 61
      (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I couldn't help but notice the contradiction in this post with another post recently written from another thread. There is no need to produce the author of that particular post as the post speaks volumes to the question posed here. For your enjoyment, here are some snippets:



      So, I wonder what has driven Christians to hate everything non-Christian?   big_smile

      1. World Marketing profile image60
        World Marketingposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I wonder too. hummmm

      2. tantrum profile image59
        tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Fear of the Truth.

        No God. No. Nothing.

    5. 0
      StormRyderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      This statement was about as far off the mark as any I have read to this point on any of the forums. You really don't understand people in general do you?

  9. brianzen profile image60
    brianzenposted 6 years ago

    For the record I actually do believe that there probably is a God or a creator just that nobody has any clue about the truth of it, not any religion or bible or anything like that. And there might even be a Devil of sorts or demons etc. just the same nobody actually has the answers no matter what they believe or have been told.

    1. 0
      sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I agree!

      1. brianzen profile image60
        brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thank you, and ironic I just read your stuff. (seriously)

        1. 0
          sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I hope I didn't scare you off.smile

          1. brianzen profile image60
            brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            No it was cool

    2. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      That sounds like Plato's philosophy that man can never know reality. hmm

      That's a shame.

      1. brianzen profile image60
        brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I feel like we are fleas on a marble just guessing and theorizing about the infinite, Not shameful, just another way to be open to discovery

        1. Cagsil profile image83
          Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Believe it or not, your statement comes across as not giving credit where credit is due. There happens to be much we've already learned and still so much more to go.

          You're dismissing the power and potential of humanity because you choose to fear the unknown. I understand about being open to it, but there happens to be no logical reason for you to think that humans are the only life form with what we describe as conscious, in any universe, never mind, just ours.

          Just because we are the only ones(conscious), so far. When and IF we run across another conscious species, will be the test of our civilization. Are you open to realize that there could be other Humans, just like Us, less or even more advanced than us, somewhere else?

          Let's keep it real. smile

          1. Pandoras Box profile image81
            Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Very true, and not just our power for good, but our power for bad. When one realizes that there is no god in charge to intervene, to make things right, to save the world, one takes a higher level of interest and active participation in their own lives and in the world at large.

            1. Valerie F profile image61
              Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Or they assume they're God, make their own rules, and if theyp[re powerful enough, they can make society in their image. Lenin and Stalin tried that.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                As did the Pope. Sex with little boys? Hmm Hmm - OK with Catholics? Yes indeed. Hide it and pay to cover it up. Never happened actually.

                Good for you Valerie. Standing up for sex with children like that.  Much, much better than Lenin or Stalin. Justifies your beliefs no end actually. Proves it is not superstition actually. Must be a god probably - seeing as you catholics are above reproach. Did not happen,. No sirree. lol lol

                Very, very well done. wink

                1. h.a.borcich profile image60
                  h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  yep - that is what I got out of her post sad I think you not only twisted her words and meaning, but cultivated words that weren't there. Holly

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                    Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Not really Holly. I appreciate it might be hard for you to understand but attacking atheism by pointing a finger at Lenin and saying that religion is better is utter garbage - Why?

                    Because of the past history of the church which includes a great deal of sexual abuse of children by Catholic priests.

                    Do you ever read any newspapers? still going on to this day.

                    But - I see you defending this institution. Why is that?

                    OK to bring up Lenin - not OK to bring up thousands of years of abuses by the church.

                    Are we seeing the double standard yet?

                    Never really understood the, "It is OK to ignore the past abuses of the church because Lenin killed people," argument.

                    Perhaps you could explain that to me?

                2. Valerie F profile image61
                  Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  If you took a look at real Catholic teaching, you'd know that any and all sex outside of marriage is wrong, especially if it involves abuse and/or a violation of a vow of celibacy.

                  I am not ingoring past of current abuses. The religion itself is fine. That people violate their religion's teachings especially while claiming to uphold them is evil. In fact, the bible said as much, repeatedly.

                  Now atheism offers absolutely no higher moral authority than humanity. Where does atheism specifically prohibit any of the behaviors you decry in religious people? it doesn't. Rather, there are no rules save for what people make up as we go along.

                  1. AdsenseStrategies profile image72
                    AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    This is not true, to be honest. Atheism comes in many different forms. There is a long tradition within Western philosophy, and particularly modern philosophy, that asserts that the Good and its pursuit simply are intrinsically things which ought to be sought. Not all atheists would express what they believe in this way. No doubt not all atheists actually believe that. But the fact is that many atheists do simply believe that the Golden Rule, for example, simply is right... without offering a reason why.

                  2. Pandoras Box profile image81
                    Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Well we did make up the rules of religion.

              2. skyfire profile image72
                skyfireposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I doubt if Stalin/Lenin thought something like that. Both of them did the job of "pissing people off". More rational any person becomes more they want to control other people(irrespective of religious/non-religious belief),that's what they tried to do just like many other religious leaders/kings. Why Jesus sells more than Lenin/Stalin ? Simple, he managed to hit in the area of people where Lenin/Stalin didn't managed to hit. If the rules are made in society to piss people off then regardless of belief it gets flushed.

              3. Pandoras Box profile image81
                Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Religion didn't stop them so what's the difference? There will always be control freaks either way.

    3. Daniel Carter profile image91
      Daniel Carterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Which is where I've landed also. Couldn't agree with you more, Brian.

  10. brianzen profile image60
    brianzenposted 6 years ago

    And plato said we mat only believe what we see, not the same thing at all.

    1. brianzen profile image60
      brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      "may" not mat...

    2. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Actually, Plato put forth that the ordinary man is not responsible for not knowing reality. Reality is not known until you know the forms, which only comes from many, many years of advanced education(educated elite).

      Plato's philosophy is one cause for the so-called "authority" was presently have in place in many places around the world.

      His unique outlook was about maintaining control, others over people, just like Religion. There cannot be any responsibility of any individual, because each is not responsible for knowing reality.

      This defeats the actual definition of reality as we have today. And, shows why there are so many people out and about who are acting as if they have no responsibility whatsoever.

  11. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 6 years ago

    Why do Atheists hate religion?
    I don't think that hate is the right word but will do.
       "Everyone" has a displeasure for things that does not fit in their system of doing things. 
       I might believe that I have my beliefs under controll then someone else comes up with another "fact" that I simply do not have room for in such a confined space. 
       I might get angry when they make me rearrange everything that I believe just to include something new.

       That is just more work than I want my mind to have to endure. 
        I am not talking about ME  but everyone that doesn't believe the way I do.
        JUST  KIDDING   (about the everyone else part anyway)
      I know that I don't like having to rethink..
      It was all I could do to do it the first time..No redo's Please.

  12. Valerie F profile image61
    Valerie Fposted 6 years ago

    I would not say that atheists in general hate religion. Some do, but some don't. I don't believe all atheists believe religious people can't think for themselves. That would take as much blind faith and judgmentalism as some accuse religious people of having. I don't think atheists in general regard religion as "dangerous" or "unhealthy."

    Rather, in a nutshell, I believe that the intelligent atheist respects religion, but just simply doesn't agree with it. They understand that just because it doesn't make sense to them doesn't mean it couldn't possibly make sense to others.

    Hatred is a different matter entirely. Why some atheists hate religion, I think, boils down to the same reasons other people hate. Grudges and/or prejudice.

    1. Pandoras Box profile image81
      Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I don't think any atheists respect religion. That'd be intellectually dishonest. They may respect peoples' right to it, they may respect the power of it, but it's quite a stretch to say "the intelligent atheist respects religion."

      1. Valerie F profile image61
        Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        They respect religion just as they respect differing points of view. There's nothing intellectually dishonest about that. Respect is not the same as agreement.

        1. 61
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, there is a difference, atheists understand that the beliefs of religion are nothing more than myths and superstitions, hence it would be intellectually dishonest to respect them if believers are to claim they are part of our reality. BIG difference.

        2. Pandoras Box profile image81
          Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          They respect others' right to their own religious viewpoints, not so much the viewpoints themselves. If an atheist thinks religion is false, how could he respect it? He doesn't respect it he respects your right to it, certain aspects of it or effects of it on certain people, he doesn't respect that which he knows is false. Do you respect Russell's Teapot? Of course not because you know it's false.

          I'll grant you that some atheists are more polite than others, and some are less interested than others, and some are more passionate than others, but I don't think any HONESTLY respect that which they know is false.

          1. Valerie F profile image61
            Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            But it's intellectually dishonest to "know" there's no such thing as God.

            1. Pandoras Box profile image81
              Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Given all the facts, it's intellectually dishonest to think there's any reason to believe there is one.

    2. 61
      (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Sure they do, they see how unhealthy and dangerous religion is every day when believers thank their gods for their abundance while tens of thousands starve to death in abject poverty, as just one example of many.



      You can't respect an ideology that is hellbent on destroying mankind.



      Religions teach hate, prejudice, oppression, racism, ignorance and violence, hence atheists despise these things taught by religions.

      1. Valerie F profile image61
        Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You can't honestly say that about all religion and expect me to take that seriously. First off, all it takes to prove a generalization wrong is one exception. As there are a number of religions that preach the salvation rather than destruction of humanity, your suggestion that religion is an ideology "hellbent on destroying mankind" is proven by their very existence to be false. Secondly, uttering such flagrant and false generalizations reveals your own irrational prejudices against the tendency most people have to see the same evidence you see and come to different conclusions about God's existence.

        Faith in God also happense to be very important to a lot of people, important enough that any lack of respect for their ideology is about the same as if someone insulted the person you love the very most to your face. If you cannot respect that, you have no place in a respectful discussion on different beliefs.

        1. 0
          Madame Xposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Very well put smile

        2. Pandoras Box profile image81
          Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          And some people believe that "preaching salvation" is destructive in and of itself.

          1. Valerie F profile image61
            Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Fair enough, but others believe that the suppression or religious freedom is even more destructive.

            1. Pandoras Box profile image81
              Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Nobody wants to suppress religious rights or practices.

              1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
                Mikel G Robertsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                roll


                Prayers in public schools???

                {Joining hands in a circle and praying 'OUTLOUD' together as a community, in Public Schools???} is that clearer Mark?

                Religious symbols on Government lawns at Christmas time...

                Religious symbols on the walls of Government buildings, schools...
                The attempts to remove 'In God we trust' from the currency of the realm...and 'One Nation under God' from the Pledge of Alligence...

                There are more examples.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Oh - I see what you mean Mikel. No doubt it is OK to sacrifice Goats in school though? wink

                  Religion in Government? Prolly not a great idea huh? Prolly a good idea to separate them huh?

                  How is this stopping your religious rights exactly?

                  I mean - you can prey and spend all your money (what the illegal immigrants didn't steal) on killing christmas trees - can't you?

                2. Pandoras Box profile image81
                  Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I'm kinda behind here, because I have resolved not to spend so much time in the forums anymore, and so have not visited this thread in apparently about four weeks.

                  Mikel come on. Get real.

                  In no way does the separation of church and state suppress anybody's religious beliefs or practices.

  13. thisisoli profile image66
    thisisoliposted 6 years ago

    I agree with Pandoras Box, it is hard to respect a fairytale.

    My view is that most Atheists do not hate religion, jsut as many religious people don't hate Atheism. It is merely a viewpoint on the existance of God.

    I personally don't hate religion, but I do strongly disagree with it, and what it does to people.

    Hate is a much too emotional word for something which I dismissed a long time ago.

  14. lilly_dens profile image60
    lilly_densposted 6 years ago

    maybe something really bad happened in their lives and discarded the thought that God exists. or maybe, because of the people who believe in God

  15. Ron Montgomery profile image59
    Ron Montgomeryposted 6 years ago

    I like Christians...

    Taste like chicken.

    1. Daniel Carter profile image91
      Daniel Carterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      So do atheists. More similar than they want to believe, I guess...

      1. Ron Montgomery profile image59
        Ron Montgomeryposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Hmmmmmmmm,

        May have to expand the menu

  16. Daniel Carter profile image91
    Daniel Carterposted 6 years ago

    I think they hate the sales tactics and the hypocrisy about "God's love" when it all feels like condemnation and hate. And I agree with that attitude. That's the way it's always felt to me, and I grew in a very conservative, religious home.

  17. AEvans profile image72
    AEvansposted 6 years ago

    I believe that Atheists disagree with religion because we are to busy pushing religion on them, if we would act like we are suppose to then there could be a possibility that they we have a slight chance of them listening. WWJD? As a Christian I always listen to there point of views and respect what they believe. Maybe many of us should try doing the same thing, you get more with honey then you do with salt.

  18. 0
    Madame Xposted 6 years ago

    They're mad at God

    1. 61
      (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Which one?

      And for the record, why don't you love Allah?

      1. 0
        Madame Xposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        There is only one.

        Why do you assume I don't?

        1. 61
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          That would only demonstrate you are ignorant to the many other gods purported to exist by billions of other people.



          Do you love Allah? Do you know he is supposed to be the one and only god who supplanted Jesus?

        2. Pandoras Box profile image81
          Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          lol Too funny.

          1. Cagsil profile image83
            Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Agreed! lol lol lol

          2. 0
            Madame Xposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            How so?

  19. 0
    Madame Xposted 6 years ago

    Ignorant, you say?

    HA HA

    There is only one God with many names.

    Jesus, Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh, Krishna, Govinda, Buddha, Ganesha, Vishnu, Shiva, Hanuman, Rama, Anandi Ma, Amritanandamayi,  Brahma, Muktananda, Chidvilasananda, Kali, Yogananda, Jyoteshwari, Yukteshwar, Sita, Parvati, Rabindranath, Nityananda, Ramakrishna . . .

    In Hinduism there are chants of the 1008 names of God.

    Sorry I can't remember them all by heart smile

    1. 61
      (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, ignorant. HA HA



      One small thing you may have left out is the fact that those many gods are not one god with many names, they are many gods with their own name and their own sets of doctrines that contradict the other gods. You conveniently forgot about that.

      1. 0
        Madame Xposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, they are one God with many names.

        There is only one God.

        There are many different needs of many different followers. Each culture has in their history and experience a form of God that resonates with them. However, ALL cultures have in their traditions (for lack of a better term) that God is infinite. Infinite means everything. So there is nothing that God is not. To assume that He incarnated only once, for only one culture, is to assume He is finite. If he is finite then he's not almighty because there is something outside of God.

        1. TheGlassSpider profile image80
          TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Brava! I couldn't have said it better myself.

          If atheists hate religions, then I would assume (perhaps because I'm egocentric LOL) that it's for the same reasons I hate religions: historically the people running religions have been warmongering, hateful, destructive thieves who seem to think that they have the right to decide how everyone should live.

          Having said that, I consider that God and religion are two completely different things.

          1. 0
            Madame Xposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Very astute smile

            1. TheGlassSpider profile image80
              TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Thanks smile

              Have you read Isis Unveiled?

              1. 0
                Madame Xposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                No. Tell me more about it?

                1. TheGlassSpider profile image80
                  TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I haven't finished it yet because it's ENORMOUS...but it's by Madame Blavatsky and it's basically an incredibly in-depth comparison of the religions and philosophies of the world. I think you would enjoy it if you can get past how dryly written it is--it's basically a textbook.

                  You know what...Let me double check...I might have a PDF version of it I can send you...

                  1. 0
                    Madame Xposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    That would be great! But you can just send the URL if it gets too complicated. Thanks smile

        2. Pandoras Box profile image81
          Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Don't know which god you worship, but the god of the christian bible never tolerated any other gods, or believers of any other gods either for that matter.

          1. 0
            Madame Xposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I didn't say there were other gods. Just one with many names smile

            1. Pandoras Box profile image81
              Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Well god in the bible liked to slew the followers of his other personalities. Or pseudonyms, if you prefer.

              1. 0
                Madame Xposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                So? What's your point?

              2. TheGlassSpider profile image80
                TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I think it's pretty clear that Madame X is not dealing with the Bible...or at least not SOLELY the Bible.

                That's one of my pet peeves. Why does everyone assume that "believers" believe the same thing? The atheists are quick to point out that there are "millions of denominations who can't agree" but can't seem to figure out that the people here represent a WIDE range of beliefs. They assume we're all Bible-toting fundamentalists when it's my understanding that that particular group is one of the SMALLEST percentage of believers that exists. Go figure.

                1. Pandoras Box profile image81
                  Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Actually it's not clear, especially when people claim they are all one and the same.

                  1. TheGlassSpider profile image80
                    TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Actually...that's *exactly* what makes it clear that Madame X is not dealing solely with the Bible.

                2. 61
                  (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Shouldn't believers believe the same thing? How many different and contradictory gods and doctrines should believers believe?

                  Doesn't that negate the entire concept of one god?

                  1. TheGlassSpider profile image80
                    TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    It's none of MY or YOUR business what different believers believe, and I'm certainly not going to presume to make such an idiotic statement as "all believers should believe the same thing." What a load of tripe.

                    Unlike you, I am not afraid of the fact that some people think differently than I do. You are free to believe what you want, and I am free to believe what I want, and she is free to believe what she wants...and what you and she believe doesn't bother me, or change me, in the slightest.

                    IF there IS one God, my beliefs or your beliefs or Joe Blow's beliefs will never change that fact. And IF there isn't...the result is the same.

                  2. Valerie F profile image61
                    Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    That's ridiculous. Just because there may be only one God doesn't mean people can't have a wide variety of beliefs and opinions about God. There is only one you, assuming you even exist, and that doesn't keep people from having differences of opinion or holding contrarty beliefs about you.

        3. 61
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          So what? That does not account for the contradictory messages each person would receive from ONE god. In other words, ONE god ONE message for all.



          In other words, each culture had their own set of myths and superstitions.



          You didn't explain the problem of contradictory doctrines and messages. No one asked about the finite or infinite.

      2. Marisa Wright profile image93
        Marisa Wrightposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Why do you say that's a fact?  Can you prove it?

        All scriptures are human interpretations of the "word of God".  So it's just as likely there IS only one God, and all the different sets of doctrines and names are human misunderstandings of Him.

        Or, of course, they might all be imagination...

        1. Pandoras Box profile image81
          Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Eh I don't know, Marisa. When you look at the development of the whole thing, it's easy to see where the god(s) concept started. Ignorance about the world. From there one built on another, which built on another, which built on another on down the line. People still want to believe in it because they think it's a nice story.

          I mean sure you could say all the written testimonies are just man's skewed versions of the truth of god, which one way or another they certainly are, but then what do you really have left? A concept conceived by early man to explain things they didn't understand. That's the staying power of it.

          If it doesn't explain something it's meaningless. (I believe in a god but reject all the known religions.) If all the explanations (interpretations) given are counted as meaningless there's nothing left but a nice story that we as a species haven't yet learned to put aside.

          We can either invent new explanations, as many do attempt and which will no doubt also be false, or we can say god's unknowable which is pretty much useless even if it is true, or we can accept the facts of the situation and realize that there simply is no reason to believe in a god. Or of course we can cling to the old religions in the face of all reason.

          I realize that we don't have all the answers, and probably never will, but that's not a reason to believe in a god. Not arguing with you, I always respect your posts, just sharing my thoughts.

        2. 61
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          How could they all be mere misunderstandings when the god messages are conflicting and contradictory, where one religion forbids their flocks to follow any other religion on pain of eternal hellfire suffering?

          How can the vast majority of creation stories from each religion be so grossly misunderstood as to be so completely different from each other. One simply has to look at the doctrines and stories of each religion to see there couldn't possibly be confusion or misunderstandings.

  20. C.V.Rajan profile image69
    C.V.Rajanposted 6 years ago

    Human Egotism has several avenues.

    "I know better" is one expression of egotism. Atheists believe so. Unfortunately, several believers too say so!

    1. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Don't mistake Ego for true understanding. Some actually have true understanding and NONE of them are of the religious view sort.

      Those who believe in a mystical "GOD" of any sort is foolish to do so, because they are under an outside authority other than self.

      It is anti-life, as described in my last post.

      It's not EGO, as you would believe. There are true facts about life, for which, people should not be blindly ignorant to. Plain and simple. smile

      Interesting that you said that though. smile

  21. Cagsil profile image83
    Cagsilposted 6 years ago

    All mystical religions that believe in the "GOD" concept are based on the exact same 3 doctrines.

    (a) selfless in life(undefined)
    (b) desire oppression in life(undefined)
    (c) belief in "GOD" during life(undefined- 'GOD')

    Otherwise, the differences are in the further doctrines added, to exercise more control over people.

    Each of the above doctrines were tested and FAILED to be attainable.

    Doctrine (a) selfless in life - the literal taking of this is anti-life.

    Doctrine (b) desire oppression in life - the literal taking of this is anti-life.

    Doctrine (c) belief in "GOD" during life - the ideology of "GOD" is a man made concept and should be realized as one of mans' mistakes, simply because belief cannot be made 100% proof positive. And, believing in something that supposedly lives in another realm other than the one we live in is anti-life, because you're not focused on your life here and now.

    Just my thoughts. wink

  22. skyfire profile image72
    skyfireposted 6 years ago

    There are many unsolved mysteries and i don't want to get worked up to solve them so my religious book { insert religious book name} answers in general some question and it lets me escape from skepticism and rational thoughts, hence i hate atheist and i prefer to call atheism as religion. I can't answer unsolved mysteries so i prefer {insert religion here}.Generalization & credit to creator saves lot of my time from being a skeptic also gives me some time to find love/moral support by invoking prayers to {insert imaginary friend name} hence i prefer this {insert religion here}.I don't know what is behind evolution and formation of universe, but my {insert religious book name here} answers this by crediting it to some creator and his son/brother and this solves my problem. Wari na, atheists are wasting their time by not praying.

  23. 0
    sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago

    Congress shall make no law repecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

    1. 0
      SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      So it doesn't really say "Separation of Church and State?"

      1. 0
        sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        No and I think it reads that the government can't declare a official national religion. How you doing Sir dent?smile

        1. 0
          SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I am doing very well Sneakor. How about yourself?

          1. 0
            sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Not bad thanks!smile

        2. 0
          SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          That would be like declaring Christianity as the official religion and forcing everyone to live by the Bible wouldn't it?

          Isn't that what they did in Britain a few hundred years ago?

          1. Disappearinghead profile image89
            Disappearingheadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Yes Henry VIII fell out with the Pope because he refused to annul Henry's marrage to Catherine of Aragon. She failed to bear him a son, so saw this as grounds for divorce. The Pope wouldn't have it ,so Henry said 'Stuff that for a game of soldiers' and set himself up as the head of the Church of England. This then became the official state religion to this day, and Her Britannic Majesty Elizabeth II is still the head of the church.

            As the monarch, she also has the title of Defender of the Faith and is duty bound to defend Christian beliefs against athieism and other religious beliefs. However it's thought that Charles is not keen on retaining this title when he becomes King. We might then see a separation of church and state.

            1. Valerie F profile image61
              Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Actually, the "defender of the faith" role was not to defend Christianity against ahteism and other beliefs, but to protect the Church of England from Catholicism.

  24. Obscurely Diverse profile image59
    Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago

    I don't think all atheists hate religion, some of them simply dismiss it and go on, while others really do detest it!  In fact, many atheists probably find religions as merely humorous simple-minded thoughts, and a good source to poke fun at - like on online forums. smile  Regardless of fact, fiction or myths..."organized" religions, as a whole, seem to cause more harm than good and should be obsolete to society.

    Personally, I think being an atheist is as simple as being religious - one usually lacks intellect while seeking a simple solution or has a selfish motive...and the other usually lacks imagination and the will to understand any further concepts besides what is found within humanity and/or science books.

    Personally, I'll just stay with the creative, open-minded, confused, insane agnostic side of things, and try to come up with my own philosophies and theories. 
    Hell, all of this crap I just wrote could be omitted, and still the most important things to life is your health, happiness, family and/or the people you care about, humanity and this beautiful planet.  I don't see that any belief system really matters, as long as you strive for what you think is right for yourself or justified for others.

    1. Obscurely Diverse profile image59
      Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      big_smile

    2. Valerie F profile image61
      Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      For all it's faults, organized religions have their acts together enough to do more real, day-to-day goood that most people who focus on religious conflict don't even notice. Establishing schools, relief agencies, food banks, hospitals, etc., takes something un-organized religion lacks. That's, well, organization.

      1. Obscurely Diverse profile image59
        Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        It still doesn't outweigh all of the turmoil, conflict, wars and death that occur - due to religious differences.  Besides, non-religious "organizations" can do all of what you mentioned above.
        Another thing about organized religions, is that they are a threat to mankind's existence - if things keep going in the direction they currently are...  Religious strife, is what needs to die.

        1. Valerie F profile image61
          Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Explain why in very many cases, they haven't to anywhere near the same extent the religious organizations have.

          Also consider history. Anytime group A branded group B entirely as "a threat to mankind's existence,"  group A would not only prove themselves wrong, they'd end up proving themselves a much more destructive force  than they ever imagined group B to be.

  25. aware profile image70
    awareposted 6 years ago

    misinformation .

  26. Bloggeressa profile image60
    Bloggeressaposted 6 years ago

    Even though I am not an atheist, I have found that many atheists don't hate religion, they just haven't chosen one. Or, they feel that there is another reason we are here and why there's life on earth. I studied a little bit of religion and through my studies I found that religions all have so many similarities but there few differences are vital in the role they play within that particular religion. And if you're trying to find out who's right and who's wrong, it can get blurry and confusing, making it easier to become an atheist.

    1. thisisoli profile image66
      thisisoliposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thats more agnostic, atheist deny existance of God, Agnostics are more in the court of 'it could go either way'.

  27. Bloggeressa profile image60
    Bloggeressaposted 6 years ago

    all of my religion professors were atheists!

  28. Danny R Hand profile image61
    Danny R Handposted 6 years ago

    I don't think they hate religion, I think they hate hipocrites, and those who try to shove thier beliefs down your throat.

  29. brianzen profile image60
    brianzenposted 6 years ago

    It is instinct to want to be correct we do not like seeing something contrary to our chosen belief. Because it is unsettling.

  30. qwark profile image62
    qwarkposted 6 years ago

    I am not an atheist (they don't exist), agnostic, deist or a believer in imagined supernatural divinities.
    I do hate religion.
    Religions = SELF IMPOSED IGNORANCE.
    IGNORANCE defined is; lacking knowledge.
    I HATE the FACT that humans, adamantly, desire, worship, accept and maintain regressive IGNORANCE as a primitive way of life.
    It is detrimental to and jeopardizes human survival!

    1. Pandoras Box profile image81
      Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Well put. Though it will make people mad to hear it, it's the truth. Religion is the embracing of ignorance.

      1. 0
        SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        It is certainly nice to know that you think believers are ignorant. What does that make those who try and debate with us?

        1. Pandoras Box profile image81
          Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          It's nice to know believers think nonbelievers are willful rejectors of goodness who will spend eternity rotting in hell.

          You can't have it both ways, Mr. Dent. You can't embrace divisive religion and expect everyone else to honor you for it.

          I don't think believers are ignorant. I think they choose ignorance and pretend it is enlightenment.

          1. 0
            SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this



            I was told recently by a very intelligent atheist that ignorance cannot be chosen.

            Believers think nonbelievers are rejectors of God. And you are also avoiding the my question. You seemingly answered it but totally avoided it.

            If beleivers are ignorant, what does that make those who debate with them?

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Willful ignorance with a purpose, Dent.

              A better word would be "denial." wink

              1. 0
                SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Your mirror never lies to you does it.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Thanks for making my point.

            2. Pandoras Box profile image81
              Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Speaking for myself only, my aim is to challenge these dangerous beliefs when I can for the main purpose of trying to keep the discussion of religion real, in the hopes that more religious and not so religious Americans will begin to realize that they ought not to try and force their misguided viewpoints on society as a whole.

              There are additional factors, but this is the one which motivates me the most. However, since religious extremists have forced me to look more closely at the question of religion and its effects on society, I now see that the problems go beyond what I mention above. While some of them -such as the scorning of science- is beyond my ability to really get into, there are other factors that I see as detrimental as well, such as the general dumbing down of society and the effects religion can have on honest seekers.

              Therefore even once we defeat this political movement which initially forced me into action, I expect I will still have much reason for wanting to keep the discussion real. Had the separation of church and state been respected, I never would have gotten involved.

              Should atheists and agnostics and other skeptics who reject these labels bow out and leave the discussion, then there would be little to stop believers and the many who barely believe from thinking far too highly of religion, religious motives and the effects of religion on society.

              1. 0
                SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Who is forcing views?

                What is dangerous about telling  men that men are evil and do bad things?



                You seem to be confusing Christianity with Muslim Extremism. If you are talking about the Crusades, that was the Catholic Church. It was also for the Church to gain property. People sold their own farms and houses to finance the Crusades. They also slaughtered Jews and Christians along with Muslims.

                Even before the Crusades Muslims spread all throughout Europe. Of course many forget that fact. It was not spread in love and  peace, but with the sword and wars.

                Before that Pagans hunted Christians down like animals and kiled them. They did all sorts of things to Christians. Some were turned in to the Romans and were tortured. Christianity has had a rough life, but yet it is stronger today than ever before. This is a fact that cannot be ignored.



                I think a level of respect should be given from both sides. We leave your threads alone and you leave ours alone. It isn't that hard to do really. I have left many threads alone simply because it isn't worth fighting over.

      2. qwark profile image62
        qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thank you Pandora!

  31. Randy Godwin profile image93
    Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago

    The problem with organized religion, just my opinion mind you, is the attempt to indoctrinate young people into believing things which go against science and logic.  If they choose later on in their life to accept something which goes against education and reality it is a different thing.

    I believe most believers are indoctrinated early on in their lives by their parents and church leaders.  I may be wrong but i do not think so.

    1. 61
      (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I had an JW come to my door with a small boy who couldn't have been older than ten years. After a lengthy discussion in which the JW was trying to convince me that Christianity were all lies, I turned to the boy and asked him what he thought. He said, "I don't believe in emolushun"

      Do they even teach evolution to ten year olds?

  32. srwnson profile image60
    srwnsonposted 6 years ago

    There are many websites that have contributed to "Where  Atheists Come From." Many site issues in the Old Testiment which have been taken out of context.

    1. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Really, what has been taken out of context? The religion's of the world are out of context all on their own. No one needs to do anything to it, except read it. lol

  33. Will Apse profile image90
    Will Apseposted 6 years ago

    'So, you're comparing me to a god? You can't do that considering I don't provide morals, ethics and creation stories for you to believe, nor do I demand you worship and obey me.'

    If you aren't providing all these services to other human beings you are the odd one out. We are all arbiters of ethics and create meanings for ourselves and others because we just can't help it. Its the way people are.

    As for worshipping and obeying- you will need a lot of money or a couple of kids.

    1. 61
      (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I think that would only serve to demonstrate that religions are man made.

    2. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Actually Will Apse, you're not required to be obeyed or worship, yet you are your own 'god', per se, because YOU control everything about yourself. You do prove morals and ethics for others, by your actions. You don't need to pass along creation stories to be a 'god' in your own life.
      It's actually not the way people are. People are taught morals(correct ones) by those parents who really understand morality. The rest simply disregard the understanding they were taught with, because they see the actions of others and say "if they can do it then I can too", type of mentality, which is foolish, dishonest(to oneself) and ignorant to say the least.
      "Worship" those who have money? And, you will have a blind selfish fool running around at the beck and call of some ego-maniac. As for obeying? Yes, you would need children, because others(outside of the workplace, if you have authority) will most likely be too ignorant to listen to most of what you say. smile

  34. Will Apse profile image90
    Will Apseposted 6 years ago

    Everything credited to God arises out of ordinary people in ordinary interactions.

    By the time kids are a few years old they understand notions of fairness and justice (he's got a bigger piece of cake than me!). They understand awe (its so big!). They believe in the supernatural (my mother can see through walls).

    They are also taking responsibility for everything (daddy left home because I am bad. I'm so sorry.). So that cycle of guilt, sin begging for forgiveness and redemption that seems to make the Christian story so profound is in fact a reflection of the most common everyday feelings.

  35. Cagsil profile image83
    Cagsilposted 6 years ago

    The purpose wouldn't be to only make them aware, but to get them to focus more on their life and stop wasting the energy on a delusion, for which, damages others around them, because those who do follow a religious mystic view are selfish.
    Truth is truth. Even you said there are 3 sides to every story, not that I agree, but it was something you said in another forum thread.

    If there are 3 sides to every story, that means there are two different perspectives/perceptions of truth(lies) and then real truth, which is backed up by factual evidence, achieved through investigative efforts and deductive reasoning.

    I do not agree there are three sides to every story. There are in fact only two sides to every story- Lie and Truth. Because, with your thinking, if there were more than 2 people involved, then you would have more sides to the story? Such, as if there were 3 people who jointly committed a murder, but investigation would lead one to find out the truth of the matter. But, you would then have 4 sides- the 3 who did it(lie) and truth.

    I don't mean to offend. Just my thought. smile

    1. Shadesbreath profile image90
      Shadesbreathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      No offense taken at all. 

      I don't recall saying there are 3 (and only 3) sides to a story.  I'm certain my intent was to say that there aren't only two.  Truth is relative to perspective, as you have pointed out.  What happens to "truth" is that to have an absolute truth, you need to narrow down the parameters of it so tightly that there can no longer be any debate.  In your case of "murder" the "truth" would be something related to who actually plunged the knife into the victim's chest.  So, if Man 1 was the person who did it, it would be a lie if he or any of the others said anything other than "Man 1 stabbed him."

      Where the truth becomes less clear cut is whether or not it was "murder."

  36. h.a.borcich profile image60
    h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago

    Valerie F wrote:
    Or they assume they're God, make their own rules, and if theyp[re powerful enough, they can make society in their image. Lenin and Stalin tried that.

    This is where the conversation was hijacked. I do believe she is inferring that Stalin attempted to change society to an athiestic one and/or that he thought he was God.
    (As I am not intimately familiar with Stalin, I kicked back to learn, absorb some information.)
    Remember there are no little boys or priests at this point in the thread. I am pretty sure she already disclosed she is a practising catholic, but not that she condones child abuse.
    Do you want to debate her reference to Stalin?  Or did you not have a view to share civilly? Holly
    For an important educated hubber you sure are playing it btw.

    Edit...I am reviewing the thread and noticing you have editted a few entries making it look different yet again. So much for civil debate.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Aww Holly - so you are looking for a fight. Good for you. This is why I despise your religion. Like it says in the title of the thread.

      Yes - Valerie was suggesting that religion is better - because Stalin killed some people and he was an atheist who thought he was god - therefore religion is better because of the altruistic nature and moral high ground taken by believers. I merely pointed out that the church was (and is) just as bad and this was an invalid argument that suggested she was prepared to ignore the child abuse.

      Although - I have used my own words here - so I guess that is "editing" what was said. lol

      1. Obscurely Diverse profile image59
        Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Good job, Mark.  This just proves, once again, that religious strife needs to die!
        Some of the most defensive, attacking, maliciously pervasive individuals on this planet...are the "holier than thou" religious freaks!
        I don't know, maybe Holly and some of the other "enlightened ones" may have some advice for me, as well.  Ha-ha!

        1. Valerie F profile image61
          Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I don't know. This whole thread proves that atheists who think they're any better than religious people really aren't.

  37. h.a.borcich profile image60
    h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago

    It appears Stalin was an athiest rejected from seminary, who let the chip on his shoulder obscur the value of much human life.
    "Killed some people" seems to be an understatement.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Like "had sex with a few children" is an understatement?

      lol

      1. h.a.borcich profile image60
        h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Yes Mark - the catholic priest problem is a bad one and something needs to be done. I know some catholic people and I am sure they have never committed these abuses so I won't blame everyone who has a belief is catholisism. ....
        Are you here to chide or are you trying to debate the topic?

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          The topic?

          "What do you think has driven atheists to hate religion?"

          Sure - I can see how priests having sex with children has nothing to do with the topic. lol lol

      2. Valerie F profile image61
        Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        The atrocities Stalin had committed were only barely matched in scope by his onetime ally Hitler.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          And the Pope. wink

          Still not understanding the "Stalin killed people therefore it is OK that the Vicar of Christ did, and we should ignore the ongoing child abuse by Catholic priests," argument.

          Perhaps you could explain that to me again?

          1. Valerie F profile image61
            Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Why should I explain something I don't believe and never said?

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              So - what about the disgusting behavior of the church and self professed Catholics over the years? Still going on to this day.

              Reason to despise religion wouldn't you agree? And pretty much proves that believers are killers.

              1. 0
                Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                can you actually name five 100% practicing Catholics? Seriously.
                like one in a million. The institution is corrupt, but hey so is every other on the planet from Goldman Sacks to Richard Dawkins' online store. Everyone is selling snake oil from Steve Jobs to Little Miss Moppet.

                lol

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Well - I have said many time that I have never met a genuine Christian. wink

                  I will become one when the time is right, (another few years yet - things to do) - but it will not be what these guys think it will.

    2. 61
      (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Stalin didn't kill people simply due to religion, he killed them because he believed they were a threat to his control of power.

      1. Valerie F profile image61
        Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        And among the imagined threats to the Soviet state were all religious people.

        1. 0
          Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          small correction: soviet state's (plural).

          almost 1/2 the world was under a soviet idealistic control.
          religion was outlawed.

          Christianity is the noisiest, but almost the second to least.
          The smallest group being atheist, from what I have read.
          The two biggest are Muslim and Hindi/Buddhism, followed by Judaism and Roman Catholic.

        2. 61
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Not true, the threat of Communism affected everyone, religion was just one small part of it. Of course, no believers here have actually taken the time to understand that and focus entirely on the religious aspect.

  38. h.a.borcich profile image60
    h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago

    If Every religion including atheism is guilty of having at least one bloody war or blood thirsty leader, they should be forever despised, generally speaking?
    Stalin justifies hating athiests?
    Catholics justify hate because of crusades? etc?

    Because of Stalin I should mistrust and ridicule every atheist I encounter no matter what they personally believe? Every christian to ever believe may as well  have slayed with a sword?
    There is no possible end to any of it? Really?

    Is there a religion in existence that has no blemish? Holly

    1. Obscurely Diverse profile image59
      Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      You could always be more concise and just say that the Homo sapiens are a disease/virus to the planet, period!  LOL!

      1. h.a.borcich profile image60
        h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Are you saying all men might just be evil and/or blood thirsty with or without a religion?

        1. Obscurely Diverse profile image59
          Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          The term 'Homo sapiens' does not point out a specific gender, but even if you meant mankind:  no, that's not what I said.  Did you even graduate Junior High School?  Just curious...

          Religion = control & power that wields the weapon of fear upon the weak!

          As for your asinine query:  I never said what you stated above; I was just trying to shorten your scrambled hogwash!  Ha-ha!

          1. h.a.borcich profile image60
            h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Nice smile Wasn't singling out just men duh.
            So much for exploring other points of view.

            1. Obscurely Diverse profile image59
              Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I can't help that you have a communicable impediment!
              Duh!  If you would have said 'mankind' instead of men (since gender is usually applied when one uses the terms 'men' or 'women'), you wouldn't have sounded so biased.  So, you have poor grammatical expressions...  It's okay; it seems to be the norm around here.  ...Just forget about it; go light you a few candles and worship someone elses self-created God.
              LOL!  Ha-ha!  So foolish...

  39. RKHenry profile image81
    RKHenryposted 6 years ago

    I don't hate religion.  I just hate stupid people.

    1. Sab Oh profile image60
      Sab Ohposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, a nihilistic self-loathing does lie at the core of the desperate, reactionary desire of atheists to deify themselves in response to an existential fear of their ultimate powerlessness.

      It's like watching someone sit there with a bloody knife and fork pointing at appalled passerby and spitting out little chunks of flesh while he cuts and chews and eats himself at the same time that he loudly declares everyone else's foolishness for not doing the same. "I'll show you!" he screams as he carves off another piece, "I'm in control! Me! Me!"

      Only one way for that meal to end...

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        TK sensei - that is the most I have ever heard you say (as it were).

        Does it really upset you that much that there are educated people who refuse to believe in the invisible super being?

        Perhaps if you took my advice and enrolled in a further education program? Might make you feel less "appalled" that there are other people who do not share your irrational beliefs?

        Worth a try I think.

  40. h.a.borcich profile image60
    h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago

    That's what you call debate? smile haha Done.

  41. 0
    SirDentposted 6 years ago

    Atheists actually love religion. They spend more time in the religion forums than believers do.  tongue

  42. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    They are drawn to it like horses to water but balk at drinking.

    1. Pandoras Box profile image81
      Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      When horses balk at drinking water it's usually because they know it's poisoned.

  43. megs78 profile image61
    megs78posted 6 years ago

    I think its funny that most people believe in some form of the supernatural ie, angels, mediums, ghosts, etc, but completely lose their minds if someone claims that God exists.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Really? Most people believe in ghosts - and this must mean there is a god, and you think it is funny when "most" people believe in ghosts, but than they don't believe in god?

      Odd. I thought "most" people believed in the invisible super being.

      No?

      Personally - I find it hilarious when people think they know what most people believe in based solely on..... well... nothing actually.

      But if it makes you feel better to invent statistics.......... wink

      1. megs78 profile image61
        megs78posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Whats not funny about it Mark?  Here, wait, I will change my very scientific statistic of the word 'most people' to 'many people'.  Is that more acceptable to you?  You are quite the hornet aren't you?

  44. mega1 profile image79
    mega1posted 6 years ago

    if it's true that atheists hate religion (which I doubt) then why is it that certain people think the same redudant and empty-minded religion questions that generalize and say nothing and make me want to vomit - are so interesting and post them over and over and over and over and over and over

    1. tantrum profile image59
      tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      lol
      There's not much to say in favor of Religion

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        ... and yet so much is said! From one of the tomes of course as there is nothing about it anywhere else where it is seen as nonsense by those who live in the absence of the ever lovin non existent fairy. smile

  45. Shadesbreath profile image90
    Shadesbreathposted 6 years ago

    I think you totally nailed it when you say, "...for these people logic has little to do with it."  I agree completely.  For some people, logic is not possible (which is so frustrating) and for others, the evidence of man's failed science so many times in the past is only evidence that it's going to be just as wrong in our age as it was in the others.  They were certain the world was flat and leeches worked at one point, and could even make logical arguments based on evidence proving it.  For many, I doubt they even work that hard on skipping logic.  Some just like the way it feels.  It just "feels" right... sort of in the way of a Wordsworth poem or stuff by Muir.

    I would argue that you assume this, as do I, but you don't KNOW it. To know, as in possess finite and absolute knowledge of some future fact, is impossible. And if some miracle happened beyond refutation for you, some unexpected evidence that defied all laws of probability and reason, something so profound and obviously true, you would believe.  I grant it's unlikely, but it's certainly not unheard of.  There are many, highly intelligent, extremely well-read, deeply contemplative people in major religions.

    Yes. This is precisely how it works in reverse with those trying to convert you.  Proselytizing is a feature of religion.  (And don't think I didn't grin at your using the "see the light" thing.  But, we already had this argument, so I shall refrain from taking your tongue-and-cheek comment out of context even though you have to admit that the fact it fits so well in that spot might be seen by someone like me as more than an accident. smile )


    I didn't address it because, the way I see it, that is a different animal.  Her bliss is not spiritual and the discovery of her lack of information is going to be devastating, and may be inevitable and increasingly damaging the longer the deceit goes on.  If she never finds out, and lives her whole life out never knowing and she is happy, then I suppose even that extreme twisting of "bliss" from what it started as being in the coversation--joy and happiness DUE to the emotional gains wrought by the willing acceptance of supernatural belief system that answers unanswerable questions--then it could be argued as having had no harm (albeit an argument requiring pure logic and no empathy).  If she dies happy and there is no afterlife, then, sure, in a hypothetical scenario, why not? The old cliché "ignorance is bliss" falls neatly into place here.

    The problem with that analogy, however, is that it is not a new "truth" that she is given to answer questions, a religion she found to explain some great universal mystery; it is the maintenance of an old truth about her marriage that has become falsehood.  Your analogy requires that what was once true now no longer be true, and then action is taken to maintain the old truth with a series of lies. The God thing, and even the drug bliss thing, do not require an accepted and true fact to be maintained afterward in newfound falsehood with lies; it was not once true and now false.  So, that analogy, while seemingly good, falls apart if examined closely, and lands in the land of red herrings, as fun as it was to contemplate.

    1. Pandoras Box profile image81
      Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I want to say a few things, but the first thing I want to say is that I'm sorry what I said was thoughtless in that it sounded to you like I meant it in a way I didn't mean it at all. Blah blah blah that sentence was so unconcise and pointless.

      What I mean is when I said "see the light" or "come to the light" -however I put it- it wasn't meant in any way as a dig at you. Honestly. I realize now it must have sounded like that, but it's not how I meant it at the time.

      Truth is I kinda forgot you're agnostic. Well no, I guess I didn't. I don't think I thought of it at all at the time. I have a bad habit of completely overlooking the obvious.

      Then I put "if you can forgive the terminology" afterwards, which makes it seem even more like I meant it the way you took it, but I really don't think I did.

      Not real sure why I seemed to be asking you to forgive the terminology.. Using christian language to describe atheism maybe. I find myself wanting to do that alot, and i always try and refrain from doing so because I figure it gives christian listeners the feeling that "see the bible is true, you just quoted it", so I think when I said that using the christian terminology and then saying "if you can forgive the terminology" I was meaning like because I was talking with you specifically I figured it was safe to use such terminology without being seen as borrowing from christianity or justifying its wisdom.

      Sounds like a crazy long winded trying to get out of it kind of excuse I know, but I really didn't mean it the way I realize it sounded.

      Or shoot, maybe I did, I dunno.

      I agree with you almost completely here except for a couple of very small things. I think science and more specifically the pursuit of science or its methodology has come a long way since the days of leeching and flat earth.

      Are there still flat-earthers out there? Saying flat earth brought to mind the flat-earthers which I recall from my last dip into 'religion wars' which ended almost a decade ago. They still around? Off-topic, sorry. Brain drift.

      Anyway, science isn't my forte that's for sure, and I TOTALLY understand that it's a real pain in the butt for average people to even approach it. It's one of those things most people don't understand, and what people don't understand they fear.

      I have noticed that when people try to use that approach they almost never successfully explain anything. Maybe it's just one of those subjects that are impossible to dumb-down enough for the average person to grasp.

      All that said and agreeing with you in essence, I still think science has changed a whole lot since then. Doesn't mean we should put our blind faith in it, but despite what people like Mikel say, I don't think we need to, and I certainly don't.

      Still, some things are provable enough, and science definitely has its place in disproving religious texts and certain ideas or tenets, though of course it cannot exactly disprove the possibility of the existance of a god.

      Okay, now when I said that I know nothing will ever change the fact that there is no reason to believe in a god, I probably should have better clarified that right now there is no reason to believe in a god, and in the history of at least my existance there never has been a reason to do such. Like way back when, when people were alot less educated and had to depend on the priests for all of their knowledge, I cannot try to judge their reasons. I'm pretty sure that they had to believe, or at the very least had to keep their derned mouths shut about it otherwise.

      What I didn't mean was that should we suddenly find some proof of something, I still wouldn't believe, though as you said I find that possibility to be so very unlikely that I almost never think about it. Honestly I can't even imagine what such proof might entail. 

      But what I meant is that I know that I am justified in my unbelief. I realize that technically that's not what I said.

      Whatever evidence may present itself in the future, isn't going to change the fact that right now I have no reason to believe, and I'm very extremely comfortable with that. Should I ever find myself before a god who demanded to know why I didn't believe, I feel myself so very justified in my unbelief that I would not feel any shame or regret. There would be no second guessing or self-doubt in it, I know and would know then as well that whatever god this may be had never given us enough evidence for his existance.

      If I ended up in some hell over it, I'd still feel justified. Though again, I honestly can't fathom the existance of any such god or any such hell. I guess what I mean is that I am so confident in my unbelief that I am ready to stake not only my life on it, but my childrens' lives as well.

      Are you a mother? You know I first sought out religion because of my children, and I struggled with it for a long time for their sake more than for my own, and I slowly backed away pausing for a long time at each stage along the road going "what if I'm wrong?" and thinking of them.

      So this whole thing has never been something I ever took lightly, and i am very comfortable with where I am now because I know exactly why and how I came to be here. And though I share with them what I know when I can, and hope to better do so in the future by the means of writing it all down in a coherent form, I want them to also make that journey for themselves, because I want for them to know why and how they are believing whatever they end up with. Otherwise I don't think a person can have true peace about it.

      So the only other thing was the cheated wife analogy. No, I disagree. It's a small thing and i feel sorta petty for arguing with you about it (but shoot, that never stopped me before.)

      It is a new truth! Just like religion and atheism, it will take her a while to get there, and the process won't always be painless, but it would be worth it! The bliss she has in a marriage with a philanderer who cannot cherish and honor her is nothing compared to the bliss she could have in her liberation, be it with someone who was more capable of truly loving her or in learning to be blissful on her own and in her own right. I insist either would be better than a marriage based on lies and empty beliefs.

      One might say that not all women are capable, (or men to be fair) blah blah blah, I deny it. We change, we grow, and we often don't know what we can do until we are forced to find out. Sure I'm denying the reality that many women have wilted and faded on being dumped, but I deny all realities that are based on false premises. This was only because of what she believed!

      Okay I rambled enough. I will say that your point while I may not fully agree with about bliss and all has helped me to understand believers better. The ones so deeply hooked, they think their happiness depends on it, when it doesn't.

      They have defined everything by their faith, just like a person in an unhealthy marriage, they don't understand that life can go on and be better without it.

      It's not just the shame of walking away, and it's not just everything you have to leave behind. It's not just a fear that God could be watching, it's a lack of motivation because happiness cannot be imagined without it.

      As always, shades, great "talking" with you.

      1. h.a.borcich profile image60
        h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Ok this is messed up and no clue how to edit it the right way. I am sure someone will tell me I am stupid for it, but I am not computer literate. Sorry
        I am NOT trying to change what anyone said !!

        Hi PB & Shades,
        I have been following your conversation with interest and have a question, if I may.
         
        Quoting from PB : It is a new truth! Just like religion and atheism, it will take her a while to get there, and the process won't always be painless, but it would be worth it! The bliss she has in a marriage with a philanderer who cannot cherish and honor her is nothing compared to the bliss she could have in her liberation, be it with someone who was more capable of truly loving her or in learning to be blissful on her own and in her own right. I insist either would be better than a marriage based on lies and empty beliefs.

        One might say that not all women are capable, (or men to be fair) blah blah blah, I deny it. We change, we grow, and we often don't know what we can do until we are forced to find out. Sure I'm denying the reality that many women have wilted and faded on being dumped, but I deny all realities that are based on false premises. This was only because of what she believed!

        Okay I rambled enough. I will say that your point while I may not fully agree with about bliss and all has helped me to understand believers better. The ones so deeply hooked, they think their happiness depends on it, when it doesn't.

        They have defined everything by their faith, just like a person in an unhealthy marriage, they don't understand that life can go on and be better without it.

        It's not just the shame of walking away, and it's not just everything you have to leave behind. It's not just a fear that God could be watching, it's a lack of motivation because happiness cannot be imagined without it.



        I can relate as I have had to be stong enough to leave an abusive and cheating husband, leaving everything but what I had on me behind. I was not happy with the lies or pretending, walking out was very liberating. But I did not give up the idea of being married. Eventually I found a great partner and have been happily married a few years now. I have no regrets.
        In relation to my faith, I am not adhering to my beliefs out of fear that I will burn in hell. I am not a believer because I am too lazy to wise up. I choose to follow what I believe because I am happy with myself. On my own, I see a world of pain, isolation, and abuses. With my perception of God, I see a world with hope of heaven. I do my best to stay focused on helping others rather than just being it for what I can glean for myself. Although I recognise I have no "proof" for what I believe and know there is a possibility I am wrong - in this I will choose to believe anyway. I cannot see that walking away would liberate me to something beyond a selfish or hopeless nature. Again, I am convinced who I am believing in God is better than the dismal world I see without it.

        What I am asking is this: If I am at peace with myself, if faith causes me to be more concerned with helping others rather than selfishness, and I am not a burden on society - why should I be attacked to change? How is my choice someone else's problem?

        I didn't post to argue - I think you both have supplied interesting thoughts. I just am asking some questions.

        Holly

        1. Shadesbreath profile image90
          Shadesbreathposted 6 years ago in reply to this



          Holly, that is exactly the point I am making, or trying to.  You shouldn't be attacked.  You have the "bliss" that we have been discussing. And I don't see why you need be "attacked." 

          I think it's fair for atheists and what not to engage in conversation with you if you bring up your faith to them, or vice versa.  But beyond that, I see no reason that anyone should attack you over it.  As I said to Q above, I wish I could believe.  You are lucky to have that faith.

          In regards to the quotes thing getting scrambled, try this next time.  When you "reply" to a post, before you start typing, click the highlighted "import and edit the quote" statement that is in the little paragraph above the window you type in.  Then, you can manage the quotes as you like.  If you click the "formatting tips" thing at the bottom right corner, you will see a nice little menu of how to make the quotes work. It's very easy once you do it a time or two, and you can preview your attempt before you hit submit until you get it right with the Preview button below.  smile

        2. Pandoras Box profile image81
          Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Holly,

          I don't know the details of your faith, and am not asking you to share them, but if I say something in this post that doesn't refer to your personal beliefs and priorities in those beliefs, I would ask you to understand that I am speaking in generalities regarding religion, christianity in particular which is the prominent religion in our part of the world. Then again, I'm not sure either what part of the world you are from, so let me say my part of the world.

          From my perspective, and I believe I could say from the secularist perspective, there IS a religious war in the U.S., but we certainly didn't start it. Since long before its official inception, our country has been home to atheists and agnostics who have quietly deferred to the majority, and fully respected your right to believe as you wished.

          At the same time, the world has advanced, prejudices and negative traditional values have been put aside, and scientific advances have been made, always with christian believers playing a big role in those advances. Certain christian elements have reacted against these advances, feeling the truth which is that in effect they threaten the existance of these christian elements.

          While it is true that progress in science and moral thinking threatens their existance, that was never the goal of atheists or the christian activists, it is just a natural biproduct of progress.

          I know you know these things, I'm just reiterating them to establish my point and annoy those people who would object to long posts. wink

          In reaction to progress, certain elements of the christian members of our country have raised up AGAINST secularism, not against atheism, but against secularism and progress. Sadly, they have managed to infect many members of less extreme christianity as well by their fear mongering, and have gained an unfortunate amount of political and societal power.

          From my point of view, the power does still lie with the people, to at least some extent. Sure they'll screw us all as much as they can get away with, but to what extent they'll screw our moral liberties rests in the power of the people who elect them.

          As the reasonable minority -which I am well aware contains a moderate number of 'reasonable' christians- it does us little good to petition our political leaders. We have to change the hearts and minds of the people.

          Whatever your personal religious beliefs may be, I'm sure you're aware that many of your fellow christians -assuming you are christian- would have our secular rights trampled on, and in fact do have our secular rights trampled on every chance they get. We are already marginalized as it is, and always has been. Imagine how much worse it would be for us if these christian extremists succeeded in having our nation declared a christian nation, which is very much their goal and heart's desire.

          That's something we cannot let happen. Again, we didn't start the war, but we'd be foolish not to fight back against this movement. It is only the secular nature of our society which was advanced partly by moderate christians themselves in reasonable cooperation with nonchristians which keeps this war in the U.S. from being truly deadly. From the inside you feel persecution, it is something that christians have not felt for a very long time in our hemisphere, unless perhaps you refer to the interfaith persecution, which nonbelievers have nothing at all to do with.

          From the outside, I can only be glad that the persecution -which nonbelievers have been suffering for eons- has not reverted back to the days of violence, at least not in my hemisphere, and at least not yet.

          In other words, I guess, I don't really see the trading of insults in these discussion as much of a big deal. It's just a biproduct of the discussions themselves, which are necessary, and a great trade-off considering the lack of actual blood-shed.

          Have I rambled on long enough to be annoying yet? Or to qualify as a rant, do you suppose?

          Well, let me address something else you said then, just to be sure.

          It's not just the very real and serious political concerns. You said something about the despair in the world without a belief in god. Not your exact words I'm sure, but something to that effect.

          I don't want to get too far into that, because we're having such a nice discussion and I don't want to ruin it right now by saying things you might feel are offensive. Surely, though, I will in other threads, on other days.

          For now to you I just want to say that I feel that viewpoint is detrimental to society on a whole other level. When that is the prevalent viewpoint of society, it can be very harmful to individuals, which in turn makes it very harmful to society as a whole.

          I respect a person's rights -natural rights- to believe in what they choose. But there needs to be other options. It is among my wishes that secular society would be able to step up and better provide society with those other options, and I recognize that we haven't succeeded yet at that, and that shortcoming is wholly our's, and not to be laid at the feet of religion. It's partly a matter of viability, the numbers are needed to create the will, and partly a matter of recognition of the problem. I am not sure most secularists have recognized this problem, and that is another reason why the discussions must continue. We rarely even touch on this aspect of the reality of our religiously dominated society, but we will, eventually, and when we do we will realize I believe that a secular replacement system would be helpful, especially considering the high populations of our communities.

          I'm not certain the above paragraph made alot of sense, but I'm gonna let it be for now. Because it's something I haven't before articulated thoroughly, and also because I really am not trying to annoy anyone. I don't feel the trading of one-liners constitutes a discussion, however.

          So I hope that I have answered your question well enough for now from my perspective of how religious beliefs harm society. At the same time, I want to make clear that I don't want you to drop your religious belief just to make someone else happy or to conform to society. As the discussion with shades helped me to more fully and consciously realize, we all have to be at peace with our decisions. I think that is something both sides need to be more fully and actively aware of.

          I have always believed and put forth that if I felt your rights to believe as you choose were threatened, I would fight just as hard to protect your rights, as I try to fight for the rights of secularists. I hope that you can believe me.

          In the meantime, these discussions and the nature of these discussions only serves to show that there is a problem in society in relations between believers and nonbelievers. We are lucky that we live in these days, that we are able to begin to recognize the problems and work towards resolving them.

          I only ask you personally since we have had this heart to heart to acknowledge to yourself that secularists and atheists have just as much right to their beliefs as believers have to their's, and to the practice of their beliefs, and also that secularism and atheism are as 'persecuted' as the religious are. Moreso these days, perhaps, at least in some regions of the world, but I won't haggle over degrees or over definitions of persecution in this thread.

          Thanks for speaking up. Understanding of each other cannot come about otherwise.

          1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
            Mikel G Robertsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Pretty well stated. I am impressed.

            1. Pandoras Box profile image81
              Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Thank you! Good, now maybe you'll listen to me more the next time I have to tell you how far off-base you are. wink

              Totally joking, just kidding around.

              1. Jerami profile image77
                Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                It was a well thought and an attitude that people on both sides of any issue should have.  We learn nothing when we stop listening. And the other person usualy stops saying anything worth learning after they feel that they have been insulted.
                   You know how to comunicate respectfully. Thanks for being you.

                1. Pandoras Box profile image81
                  Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Hey Jerami, hope all is good with you today.

                  Since you responded to this post where I said "Good, now maybe you'll listen to me more the next time I have to tell you how far off-base you are" I just wanted to make sure you knew that the comment there -jokingly intended though it was- was not in any way directed at you.

              2. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
                Mikel G Robertsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                probably not. wink

          2. 0
            china manposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Well - I have only been up less than 2 hours so I went and got another coffee and settled in for your good read.

            Well said, and so restrained, calm and gentle.  An example that others might learn from.

            Good morning everyone smile

      2. Shadesbreath profile image90
        Shadesbreathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You are beyond forgiven for the terminology, and should know I don't think I took it as you think.  I saw it as just a light-hearted way of expressing the idea of "I came to a realization."  I read it as you expressing that idea about non-belief, that you "saw the light" when it comes to realizing the god-stories don't work.  I thought it was humorous, as in, you were having a bit of fun, a sprinkle of ironic metaphor was all.  I was just picking on you a little, meant in fun too.  Sometimes inserting a smilie is just not good enough, <sigh>, but I did not mean to give the impression I was offended or in anyway took it personally.  I thought it was great and in keeping with the friendly nature of the exchange.  So, we're all good on that front. smile



        I do not disagree with you on this at all.  My point was to say that this analogy is not analagous to the bliss of religion due to the fact that at one point there was a faithful marriage, and then, after an action on the husbands part, there was no longer a faithful marriage.  In the god-religion scenario, there is not the absolute truth that god does not exist as a known and provable fact and then that person is sold religion by someone who knows there is no god but that is creating a ruse to cover up the fact that they are doing something wrong.  I don't believe that is really what happens in religion most of the time, which is not to say it never happens, but I don't think that analogy works.  The nature of a real human being in a real marriage, I totally agree with you.  In my head I'm keeping the separation between specific and hypothetical.   In a hypothetical case, thought and theory only, I maintain that "bliss" if it is true bliss, is all the same in a hypothetical universe where there is no afterlife - especially since, as I was discussing with (Q), you can't quantify it to say one thing provides more bliss than another. But principles that apply generally rarely apply specifically, and to your point about an individual, real woman, I absolutely agree.

        And I also agree this has been a lively and interesting conversation.  Thank you for it.  It's fun to watch people writhe in agony when others exchange thoughts that require more than a cartoon chat bubbble's worth of time and energy.

        1. Pandoras Box profile image81
          Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Okay, good! I do find a good deal of wisdom in the bible, in fact. Having spent so much time in it in the past, I find it hard not to occasionally borrow phrases from it, but I try not to for the reasons stated before.

          Someone in this forum said it not long ago to someone else (I don't remember who and who, and it doesn't matter anyway) something along the lines of "using an argument from the bible to prove belief in it wrong makes no sense".

          Personally I disagree, in many instances it makes perfect sense, but when the debates rage sometimes it's impossible to reason with people. Which is ironic.

          I understand your point about the analogy of the unhealthy marriage. I could probably argue it, but won't bother, I think we both understand each other anyway so the analogy is moot.

          Plus I'd ramble too much about the nature of love, go all off-topic and annoy people, which never bothers me much anyhow, but why argue for argument's sake, so I won't.

          The truth is, I don't always advocate the divorce in these scenarios, though I do feel the transgression to be extremely grievous. Sometimes the marriage is worth salvaging anyway, and I think better for having been nearly lost, but it shouldn't take the betrayal to get people to that point.

          That's another topic and another forum really, so I'll drop it, I just didn't want anyone to think that I am so rigid as to think the transgression wholly unforgivable and the marriage inconsiderably unsalvagable.

          I am sorry for rambling in my last reply to you, but I appreciate your point of view. You don't seem to be here on either side of the 'war' exactly, and I respect your neutrality and insights. I don't think you're neutral on specific issues, but you seem to approach them from a well-balanced viewpoint, and that is what I like about you.

          I don't always fully agree with you, and am not getting in the middle of you and Q because I think you're both right, lol, but I almost always learn something or better recognize or understand something from our exchanges. 

          Well I'm off of here for the night, cause I'm still tired and planning an early bedtime. It was a long day, but a good day. I shouldn't have stayed up so late last night.

          My daughter -if you'll allow me a moment to gloat a bit more- is the officially smartest of my children. I say officially because though my son has always been in advanced classes and is far more reasonable and my other daughter is very creative in ways the other two lack and very responsible, my youngest child and daughter in the competition today is the only one who was ever in gifted classes.

          But I don't put alot of faith in that, because she really doesn't give a fat rat's bum about any of it. She hates studying, loves clothes and shopping, her room is almost always a federally declared disaster area and she frequently tells me "whatever". I swear this child used to roll her eyes at people when she was still a small baby. I know nobody would believe that, but she did. She'd look at people cooing at her, and she'd stare back at them with the most profound look on her face and then she'd just roll her eyes and look away, totally dismissing them from her world.

          Anyway, I was really concerned about how she would do today, because she has been difficult to pin down to reviewing her assigned topic materials. It's really unfair that she's the gifted one.

          So I was so glad she did well. I was more happy about it than she was. Long day, but rewarding one as well.

          So goodnight and I'm sure I'll 'argue' with you another time. smile

          1. Shadesbreath profile image90
            Shadesbreathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I agree.  The Bible is a piece of literature as much as it is a holy book.  Quoting from literature is and always has been an excellent way to make points.  Irony is just fun.  smile


            Yeah, I try not to pick sides.  I tend to play Devil's Advocate when one side of anything get's unfairly beat on.  I think that "war" happens when people stop being reasonable, so I try to mediate with reason.  When I can.  Other times, after a few cold ones, well, a nice argument laden with sarcasm is fun too. big_smile

            And, on your tangent, I love the crap out of my daughter too.  smile

  46. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
    Mikel G Robertsposted 6 years ago

    @Shadesbreath, Wow.

  47. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 6 years ago

    PB two hubs right there! smile Geeze what happened, ya wore out the keyboard on this one! lol
    Good post an all... smile Just a bit shorter than genesis! lol

  48. karobi profile image70
    karobiposted 6 years ago

    is their lack of understanding GOd, remember the letters kills but the spirit behind the letters gives life abundantly. thanks

  49. Antecessor profile image82
    Antecessorposted 6 years ago

    I dont bother to read long and disorganised posts like above. Those types of posts are called rants for a reason.

    1. Pandoras Box profile image81
      Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I'm not sure which post you're referring to. I suspect it was mine, but I don't see anyone ranting. Perhaps you have a different definition of the word rant in Australia.

      But yes, I agree that you should skip any posts that appear too long, pointless and/or uninteresting to you. That's what I always do.

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        It wasn't your post he was referring to PB. smile

        Hope you're doin well! smile

        1. Pandoras Box profile image81
          Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, tired, but well, Earnest, thank you. Nothing makes a parent happier than seeing their children do well, as I'm sure you know.

          smile smile smile

          1. earnestshub profile image87
            earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I just wanted to comment on the bit about your daughter rolling her eyes at adults. One of my twin granddaughters is the same. She has been able to exit a room as well as Bette Davis since she was two, she challenges everything she hears and when she rolls her eyes, even the dog is insulted, so I get what you are saying, and must admit I find it adorable! lol

            1. Pandoras Box profile image81
              Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Yeah me too. lol Unfortunately I'm pretty sure she knows it!



              Thanks China Man, and to your good morning, good night!

  50. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 6 years ago

    This may sound out of place in this train of thought,but I don't think so.  To answer the question about God forgiving or not, the un belief of Atheists????    The first commandment is to NOT put other Gods before him. 
       I believe that it is better to go nowhere than to go in the wrong direction.?????   There are too many definitions of who this God is. To make no choice as to which definition to choose is better than to choose the wrong one ???
       It is written that he chooses whom he will so......
         
         It is early in the AM and I am sure that I didn't explain this exactly the way that I am thinking it.  Sorry.

    1. Pandoras Box profile image81
      Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      In my journey from believer to nonbeliever I worried about what the hypothetical god would think of my apostasy. Eventually I decided honesty was the best policy. If a hypothetical god cannot appreciate and understand that, then I wouldn't want anything to do with him/her/it anyways, you know?

 
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