When did this become ok?

1. 92

   gamergirlposted 17 years ago

   Since I was a young teen I've often read emails, articles and other messages retelling stories of inspiration and support toward the men and women of the American military.  While so many people argue over things like a timetable for bringing our soldiers home, why we're even here there and everywhere, how much money is being spent on various military campaigns, during the last few years of deployments, activity and such, when did it become alright to regard these inspirational stories, prayer requests, etcetera in the same light one would spam?
   
   When did it become alright to reply to these messages of love and unfaltering support for our families, siblings, spouses and friends who are out there every day doing their duty with venom and cynicism? (outside of the whole first amendment rights thing.)
   
   It's distressing, to me, to see such a negative response to something so positive as a woman's story about standing up for her husband deployed in the Middle East right now.

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      Marc Davidposted 17 years agoin reply to this

      This reminds me of a person I knew who did nothing except try and educate his fans about his area of expertise.  The guy was really nice.  He did nothing but give and give.
      
      One day he just mentioned in his postings that his personal prays went out to one of his fans because her husband was in the military and leaving for duty.
      
      The flames that ensured were outrageous!  People spewing hate, how could he support the war, blah blah blah.
      
      All he wanted to do was just point out that ones of his fans had a difficult time with this situation and his thoughts were with her.  Nothing was said about supporting any wars or his own political views.  His experience made it clear to me that even if I wanted to sympathize with somebody and let everybody know, I'd need to be ready for a select few to lead the attack.
      
      Your post just reminded me of that.  And I cannot understand the mindset of a person who would reply back in such venom.
      
      In fact, the other day I started to read some comments on the online version of the local newspaper and the first few comments about an accident that happened were horrible.  I'm not sure when it became okay to do it but it sure seems to be the norm lately.

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   2. 73

      Peter M. Lopezposted 17 years agoin reply to this

      Gamegirl, it never became alright.  I happen to have disagreed w/this war from the beginning, but it is still not alright, and it never will be. 
      
      But, venom and cynicism have their place in the marketplace of ideas.  Just be thankful you are neither venomous or cynical.

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2. 66

   Mishaposted 17 years ago

   Short answer - when Army went from drafting to recruiting.

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3. 88

   Marisa Wrightposted 17 years ago

   Being outside the US, I haven't seen the story - could you post a link?

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   1. 0

      RFoxposted 17 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, I would like to read it also!

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4. 92

   gamergirlposted 17 years ago

   My mother sent this my way, here it is:
   
   WIFE'S REQUEST
   
   I was sitting alone in one of those loud, casual steak houses that you
   find all over the country. You know the type--a bucket of peanuts on
   every table, shells littering the floor, and a bunch of perky college
   kids racing around with longneck beers and sizzling platters.
   
   Taking a sip of my iced tea, I studied the crowd over the rim of my
   glass. My gaze lingered on a group enjoying their meal. They wore no
   uniform to identify their branch of service, but they were definitely
   'military:' clean shaven, cropped haircut, and that 'squared away' look
   that comes with pride.
   
   Smiling sadly, I glanced across my table to the empty seat where my
   husband usually sat. It had only been a few months since we sat in this
   very booth, talking about his upcoming deployment to the Middle East
   That was when he made me promise to get a sitter for the kids, come back
   to this restaurant once a month and treat myself to a nice steak. In
   turn he would treasure the thought of me being here, thinking about him
   until he returned home.
   
   I fingered the little flag pin I constantly wear and wondered where he
   was at this very moment. Was he safe and warm? Was his cold any better?
   Were my letters getting through to him?
   
   As I pondered these thoughts, high-pitched female voices from the next
   booth broke into my thoughts. 'I don't know what Bush is thinking about.
   Invading Iraq . You'd think that man would learn from his old man's
   mistakes. Good Lord. What an idiot! I can't believe he is even in
   office. You do know he stole the election.'
   
   I cut into my steak and tried to ignore them as they began an endless
   tirade running down our president.
   
   I thought about the last night I spent with my husband, as he prepared
   to deploy. He had just returned from getting his smallpox and anthrax
   shots. The image of him standing in our kitchen packing his gas mask
   still gives me chills.
   
   Once again the women's voices invaded my thoughts.
   
   'It's all about oil, you know. Our soldiers will go in and rape and
   steal all the oil they can in the name of 'freedom'. Hmmm! I wonder how
   many innocent people they'll kill without giving it a thought. It's pure
   greed, you know.'
   
   My chest tightened as I stared at my wedding ring. I could still see how
   handsome my husband looked in his 'mess dress' the day he slipped it on
   my finger I wondered what he was wearing now. Probably his desert
   uniform, affectionately dubbed 'coffee stains' with a heavy bulletproof
   vest over it.
   
   'You know, we should just leave Iraq alone. I don't think they are
   hiding any weapons. In fact, I bet it's all a big act just to increase
   the president's popularity. That's all it is, padding the military bud g
   et at the expense of our social security and education. And, you know
   what else? We're just asking for another 9-11. I can't say when it
   happens again that we didn't deserve it.'
   
   Their words brought to mind the war protesters I had watched gathering
   outside our base. Did no one even appreciate the sacrifice of brave men
   and women, who leave their homes and family to ensure our freedom? Do
   they even know what 'freedom' is?
   
   I glanced at the table where the young men were sitting, and saw their
   courageous faces change. They had stopped eating and looked at each
   other dejectedly, listening to the women talking.
   
   'Well, I, for one, think it's just deplorable to invade Iraq , and I am
   certainly sick of our tax dollars going to train professional
   baby-killers we call a military.'
   
   Professional baby-killers. I thought about what a wonderful father my
   husband is, and of how long it would be before he would see our children
   again.
   
   That's it! Indignation rose up inside me. Normally reserved, pride in my
   husband gave me a brassy boldness I never realized I had. Tonight one
   voice will answer on behalf of our military, and let her pride in our
   troops be known.
   
   Sliding out of my booth, I walked around to the adjoining booth and
   placed my hands flat on their table. Lowering myself to eye level with
   them, smiling I said, 'I couldn't help overhearing your conversation.
   You see, I'm sitting here trying to enjoy my dinner alone. And, do you
   know why? Because my husband, whom I love with all my heart, is halfway
   around the world defending your right to say rotten things a b out him.'
   
   'Yes, you have the right to your opinion, and what you think is none of
   my business. However, what you say in public is something else, and I
   will not sit by and listen to you ridicule MY country, MY president, MY
   husband, and all the other fine American men and women who put their
   lives on the line, just so you can have the 'freedom' to complain.
   Freedom is an expensive commodity, ladies. Don't let your actions
   cheapen it . '
   
   I must have been louder than I meant to be, because the manager came
   over to inquire if everything was all right
   
   'Yes, thank you,' I replied.
   
   Then, turning back to the women, I said, 'Enjoy the rest of your meal.'
   
   
   As I returned to my booth applause broke out. I was embarrassed for
   making a scene, and went back to my half eaten steak. The women picked
   up their check and scurried away.
   
   After finishing my meal, and while waiting for my check, the manager
   returned with a huge apple cobbler alamode. 'Compliments of those
   soldiers,' he said. He also smiled and said the ladies tried to pay for
   my dinner, but that another couple had beaten them to it.
   
   When I asked who, the manager said they had already left, but that the
   gentleman was a veteran, and wanted to take care of the wife of 'one of
   our boys.'
   
   With a lump in my throat, I gratefully turned to the soldiers and
   thanked them for the cobbler. Grinning from ear to ear, they came over
   and surrounded the booth.
   
   'We just wanted to thank you, ma'am. You know we can't get into
   confrontations with civilians, so we appreciate what you did.'
   
   As I drove home, for the first time since my husband's deployment, I
   didn't feel quite so alone. My heart was filled with the warmth of the
   other diners who stopped by my table, to relate how they, too, were
   proud of my husband, and would keep him in their prayers.
   
   I knew their flags would fly a little higher the next day. Perhaps they
   would look for more tangible ways to show their pride in our country,
   and the military that protect her. And maybe, just maybe, the two women
   who were railing against our country would pause for a minute to
   appreciate all the freedom America offers, and the price it pays to
   maintain its freedom.
   
   As for me, I have learned that one voice CAN make a difference.
   
   Maybe the next time protesters gather outside the gates of the base
   where I live, I will proudly stand on the opposite side with a sign of
   my own. It will simply say, 'Thank You!'
   
   To those who fought for our nation, freedom has a flavor the protected
   will never know.
   
   GOD BLESS AMERICA !
   
   Please pray
   for God's protection of our troops and HIS wisdom for their commanders.
   Pass this on to as many as you think will respond.
   
   'Lord, hold our troops in your loving hands. Protect them as they
   protect us. Bless them and their families for the selfless acts they
   perform for us in our time of need. I ask this in the name of Jesus, our
   Lord and Savior.'
   
   When you receive this, please stop for a moment and say a prayer for our
   ground, air and navy personnel in every area of the Middle East
   
   Do not stop this prayer chain please... Of all the gifts you could give
   to anyone in the US Military, be it Air Force, Army, Navy, Marines or
   National Guard, prayer is the very best one...Amen.
   
   GOD BLESS AMERICA

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      Ralph Deedsposted 17 years agoin reply to this

      FYI, the "professional baby killers" line came straight from the movie "First Blood," the first Rambo movie. Stallone also spouted the crapola line "We could have won the war but they wouldn't let us." John Rambo also complained about people spitting on him when he arrived back in the United States. These undocumented myths have been picked up and spread ever since by movement conservatives to turn the public away from people who oppose needless, foolish and costly wars and to tar Democrats with a "weak on defense" brush.

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5. 60

   Bug Meeposted 17 years ago

   Huh?.....I have a short attention span.

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6. 0

   RFoxposted 17 years ago

   Thank you Gamergirl.
   I am a pacifist and seek peaceful resolution in all disagreements. I do not agree with the war in Iraq or George W. Bush. I also believe staunchly in free speech and peoples right to express their opinions.
   However, I also understand the sacrifice that military families make. How hard it must be to see your loved one off and never know if they will return.
   I believe that we can oppose war without disrespecting the men and women who choose to go. It is the politicians not the soldiers who choose when and where to fight. The soldiers make unbelievably difficult choices all the time and do so because for them this is how they feel they can make a difference in the world.
   
   So I agree with you Gamergirl. This woman should not be subjected to nasty, derogatory comments because of an article she wrote in support of her Husband. This is the love of her life. We humans really need to learn how to disagree with each other without causing so much damage and pain to others.
   
   Just my two cents.

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7. 88

   Marisa Wrightposted 17 years ago

   I'm in two minds about this story.
   
   I agree this woman is perfectly entitled to be proud of her husband's courage and to be upset at hearing soldiers being labelled "professional baby-killers" and accused of raping and killing without thinking.   That's inexcusable. 
   
   The trouble with this story is that she's making the same mistake as the people who've upset her.  They are lumping the Bush administration together and tarring them with the same brush.  In her reply, the wife defends the Bush administration and the military together too, so she gives the group an excuse to dismiss her tirade.
   
   I would have been right behind her if she'd said the following:
   
   "My husband is a professional soldier.  He did not make the decision to go to Iraq.  His personal feelings about the rights and wrongs of the conflict make no difference - he's just doing the best job he can do, putting his life at risk because he has sworn to do so.  Whatever you feel about the administration and what they've done, my husband and his colleagues are owed nothing but respect."

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   1. 75

      Kenny Wordsmithposted 17 years agoin reply to this

      I agree.

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      RFoxposted 17 years agoin reply to this

      Well said.

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8. 92

   gamergirlposted 17 years ago

   I think, Marisa, that it is easier to come up with the most well-thought answer when we're not pressed into an emotional corner.  My heart goes out to every loved one of a soldier, the men and women who do their duty every day no matter who the Commander-in-Chief is (and regardless of how much of a blubbering baboon he may be.)
   
   By the way.. it's not the author of the story who is catching hate mail for it's existence. 
   
   I'm catching hate mail for forwarding "small minded propaganda" and "blatant mixing of church and state."

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      Marisa Wrightposted 17 years agoin reply to this

      Yes that's true, but the fact that she defends both her husband and the government indicates a mindset that I don't have sympathy with. She has every right to object to the denigration of her husband, but she does not have any right to "have a go" at those people because they said negative things about the war as a whole or the government.  The fact that she did, suggests she is as closed-minded as they are.
      
      And BTW, the whole story sounds to me like one of many made-up internet stories.

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9. 66

   Mishaposted 17 years ago

   Wow, I found myself in disagreement with Kenny!
   
   Frankly, I too was going to write something about my agreement with Marisa - so I'm not that far, but after giving it a second thought I realized I don't agree.
   
   Professional soldiers exercise their god given right to choose when they decide to join the army. They now have to obey the orders without thinking. They now don't make decisions, they made the only one very important decision - to delegate decision making to whoever is their chief.
   
   And that means they signed up to do all the bad things they are ordered to do, whether they realize this or not. They chose to obey...
   
   When soldiers are drafted, they do not have choice, thus deserving all the respect and protection from the citizens.
   
   Professional soldier is just another job, and pretty dirty job at that. Despite of all the rethoric...
   
   Sorry if I offended anybody...

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10. 92

    gamergirlposted 17 years ago

    How long were you in the military, Misha?

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11. 66

    Mishaposted 17 years ago

    Two years

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12. 92

    gamergirlposted 17 years ago

    Then you know that a soldier is not a mindless being moving from task to task.  Members of the armed forces join for a multitude of reasons, most of them being selfless.  You carry out orders because it's the right thing to do, because it is what you are conditioned to do, but at the same time... you make the choice to wake up at reveille.  You make the choice to press your uniform, shine your boots and muster with your platoon, squad, division, etcetera. 
    
    A soldier thinks, feels, holds his or her own opinion on every aspect of their lives just as we do.  They're also faced with harder choices.
    
    The life of a soldier is not glamorous, but it is by no means the most vile occupation on the planet.

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    Kenny Wordsmithposted 17 years ago

    Then what you say goes for terrorists also, friends. They leave their loved ones behind and fight for a cause. I'm a pacifist and I believe in a world of peace.
    I will sympathise with a soldier who is forced to fight, not one who willingly goes. He understands the occupational hazard. My sympathies are with those left behind, but for a different reason.

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    Iðunnposted 17 years ago

    kenny, it's a contract.  you take an oath when you join and what you agree to do is follow orders.
    
    most of the soldiers who got caught up in the iraq war entered into the service in peacetime.  now realistically, they knew they were offering their services to fight if it became necessary.  the problem I have with the iraq war is that it is totally unjustified - a war for profit for Bush and his cronies that has absolutely nothing to do with our country's defense.
    
    however, that said, our soldiers didn't make that choice.  our soldiers are owed the highest respect for doing exactly what they contracted to do - keeping their word.  there was no way they could know they would be used as fodder for profit instead of a legitimate war.
    
    all that said, anyone can voice any opinion they want, even if we don't like it.  that, in fact, is what they are fighting for the right to preserve, ideally.

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       Mishaposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       Please don't tell me that previous American wars were legitimate in your understanding. All the way back to WWII - which I agree was legitimate...

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          Iðunnposted 17 years agoin reply to this

          that would have been the last legitimate one in my view too.  a rare moment of agreement.
          
          still I don't hold young men who enlisted for patriotism's sake responsible for government choice.

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             Mishaposted 17 years agoin reply to this

             Glad we agreed on something finally well, this will be within our usual agreement on responsibility for our own lives - whether we like it or not...
             
             Anyway, I'm heading to bed - Good night everybody

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    Iðunnposted 17 years ago

    yeah it sounds like a pass along and I get a lot of those from a church friend.  but still, it's a good issue for discussion.
    
    thing is, I don't think I've seen anyone disrespect our soldiers this war, personally or even on the internet.  sounds more like the old vietnam era, which is why it seems contrived.  I don't believe I've heard the term "baby-killer" related to U.S. soldiers since the 1970s, not even after abu graibh.

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16. 66

    Mishaposted 17 years ago

    Charlotte,
    
    I'm afraid you speak out of illusions.
    
    Soldier can make a decision if he want to shine his boots first or to press his uniform - if they do this in US - but he does not make decision whether he does those things or not.
    
    And we are not talking about such decisions here, btw. When soldier attacks, he makes decisions of whom he kills first - but he does not make decision whether to attack or not. And soldiers are not faced with harder choices. They chose already - when they became soldiers. Those few that do, however - either get killed, or get prosecuted, or leave the army...
    
    War is a dirty business, extremely dirty, and Abu-Graib is just a tip of the iceberg that became known to general public....

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17. 0

    RFoxposted 17 years ago

    Misha: Watch out for bed bugs.

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18. 0

    Iðunnposted 17 years ago

    niterz, M.  pleasant dreamz~

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19. 88

    Marisa Wrightposted 17 years ago

    Morning all!  Well, it is in Australia.  I was thinking about Misha's comment overnight.
    
    It's true that professional soldiers do make a choice.  However, that choice is often made when they are young and uninformed.  They're at an age where they think war is like a real-life game of Doom, and they have a naive expectation that their government would never send them to an unjust conflict.  By the time they discover that's not the case, it's too late. Of course we'd like to think they'd stand on their principles and refuse to accept a posting or do the dirty work - however the consequences of dereliction of duty or desertion can be severe for both the soldier and the family that relies on him.  So in practice, the professional soldier also has no choice. 
    
    You could argue that it's his own fault for choosing the army in the first place - but let's face it, we were all young and made foolish mistakes once. 

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    Mishaposted 17 years ago

    Sure we do. And we always pay the price. And often this price seems disproportional to us - but he who decides what price has to be paid probably knows better....

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21. 59

    Mark Knowlesposted 17 years ago

    I have to disagree with that Marisa - while I can accept that some of them are coerced into joining with the promise of a free college education, the last few wars the US have been involved in have been purely for profit and the returning soldiers have been sorely mistreated because of it - look at the way the Viet Nam vets have been treated.
    
    There is more than enough information around for them to make a considered judgment.
    
    The simple fact is that soldiers are paid to kill whilst defending the "interests" of their country - USA or otherwise.
    
    If there were no US soldiers, there would be no Iraq occupation and I don't think anyone still believes we are "freeing" the Iraqi people.

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    Marisa Wrightposted 17 years ago

    Mark, you'd be surprised how many young people know nothing about Vietnam - it's ancient history.  And young men who don't complete a higher education are often very misinformed about world events in general - and they're the biggest targets for military recruitment.

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23. 59

    Mark Knowlesposted 17 years ago

    Yes, but there is ready access to this information. It's a 2 way street - you cannot get away with a crime in the US by claiming ignorance of the law yet you are expected to be educated in them.
    
    You cannot join the army and agree to kill people without educating yourself either. As Misha said earlier - we have to take responsibility for our own actions at some point.
    
    If you join the military - you agree to kill people - that's what the military does. No?

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    Marisa Wrightposted 17 years ago

    Yes, absolutely agree, Mark.   I'm just saying that we've all made stupid mistakes at some point in our lives, so we shouldn't judge others harshly because they've done the same thing.  If these young men sign on again when their first tour is over, I have no sympathy for them.

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       Mishaposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       Yeah, sure, Marisa. It may even be not a mistake - it may be their life mission to be a soldier. Bhagavad Gita is the perfect illustration and explanation for that. I'm not in a position to judge them. I'm not going to bash them just because they do what I don't like to do. But they have to be ready to receive bashing from other people for what they do - this is the part of their mission. And their wives should be ready, too...

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25. 59

    Mark Knowlesposted 17 years ago

    I see your point and I have made a few stupid mistakes myself - but none of them ended up with me shooting someone to protect an oil company's money. Sorry.

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    Stacie Naczelnikposted 17 years ago

    I dated a trained killer once.  His official title was Navy Seal.
    
    It was my only true indiscretion.  I quickly returned to my peace-loving, hippie roots.  After I taught him how to knit, of course.

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    RFoxposted 17 years ago

    Negative words or even thoughts are just as damaging to people as actions. And while I personally feel we need to think more about what comes out of our mouths on a daily basis it's well known that the vision of a soldier as a hero died with the Vietnam War. It is extremely disheartening that we humans can be so judgmental and hurtful towards each other but military personal and their families must be emotionally prepared nowadays for the fallout of being a soldier.
    
    Before the decision is made to join the armed forces you have to look at how much crap you can take from the general public without it affecting you. It is sad that most people cannot just agree to disagree politely and with respect to each others viewpoints but that's the reality.
    
    Soldiers and the military have been on the hit list for over 30 years now. Young people cannot be that naive to think they won't cop flack for it. I'm not saying it's right just saying that's the world we live in.

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    Maddie Ruudposted 17 years ago

    It's difficult with such an emotionally charged subject.  Whether or not I agree with any given military campaign, I would never denegrate the individuals serving in it.  But things get personal the other way, too.  I've had an experience where someone felt it was okay to drop a guilt bomb on me ("My father lost his arm for you!") because I expressed my disagreement with the principles behind the war in Iraq.  Just as I have respect for people who choose to serve in the military, my opinions need to be respected as well, especially when expressed in a respectful manner.

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       darksideposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       George Bush probably has the missing limb under his couch.

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29. 0

    daflaposted 17 years ago

    I support our troops to the very end, but not the war.  I am proud of every one of them.  I had to stop watching the news because I cried too much.
    
    I grew up during the Viet Nam era, and I can truly say that the fact that these men and women enlisted, rather than being drafted, makes their sacrifices even more special to me.  They wanted to serve their country.  To see so many of them die for naught, just like what I watched with Viet Nam, breaks my heart, but I will NEVER let ANYONE put them down or call them names.
    
    My parents always taught me that before you judge, put yourself in someone else's shoes.  I can't even imagine what their lives are like over there, but I appreciate every single second that every single one of them is there. 
    
    We all should, because if they fight this hard for someone else's country, and someone else's agenda, just think how hard they would fight this hard to protect our country. 
    
    You had better never let me hear anyone insult our military in front of me, or they'll have someone  not half as nice as that lady was in their faces.

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    Mark Knowlesposted 17 years ago

    You are proud of this American soldier?
    
    

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    barrancaposted 17 years ago

    Soldiers chose to do what they do whether it is for financial gain or patriotism.  And they continue to choose each day.  It is always an option to throw down the gun and say "no more".  It has been pretty obvious for a long time, even to the obtuse, that this war has been a tragic mistake from the beginning.  I fail to see much honor in continuing to fight such a war.  I would have a whole lot more respect for a soldier saying screw this and then paying the penalty in prison for having a conscience.  The question that bothers me personally is why do I keep paying taxes to support a trillion dollar defense budget?

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       Mishaposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       Why don't you stop to pay taxes then? It would be pretty much the same as soldier throwing down his gun...

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          RFoxposted 17 years agoin reply to this

          Excellent point.
          
          

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32. 76

    livelongerposted 17 years ago

    If you have no appreciation for satire, please do not follow this link. But if you do, enjoy:
    
    http://www.theonion.com/content/node/34068

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       Ralph Deedsposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       Great stuff! lol!

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    barrancaposted 17 years ago

    That is the question i am asking myself.  And so far I can't say I have a good answer.

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       Mishaposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       That's why I don't judge soldiers. This does not change the fact that paid soldiers choose to be soldiers, and being a soldier includes killing people and getting bashed. And killed...

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    Stacie Naczelnikposted 17 years ago

    I love The Onion.

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    Stacie Naczelnikposted 17 years ago

    Who shall guard the guards?
    
    Who shall judge the judgers?
    
    It's a slippery slope.

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    bobwposted 17 years ago

    There are bad things happening no matter where you look. My son is in the Marines and just returned home from Iraq. Look at this welcome that our town gave him!
    http://welcomehomeandrew.com/
    He could not believe that this was all for him!

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    Bonnie Ramseyposted 17 years ago

    Gamergirl,
    
    We may not always agree on some topics but we are definitely eyeball to eyeball on this issue! Whether we agree with the war are not, we should always respect and support our military...ESPECIALLY those who go volntarily! The fact that they didn't hide until they were forced to go deserves a lot of praise and respect.
    
    Even if you don't believe that this war is on terrorism, what about the next one? If all of our military refuse to fight because they don't agree with the issues at hand, who will be there be left to defend our country when we truly need them? Those who are afraid to put their lives on the line for our country unless they are forced to? I am another one that will speak up in defense of our military in public regardless of any opinion towards me for doing so.
    
    Now, for the actual issue that Gamergirl posted this for, I have received many emails concerning our troops, some look legit and some look like made up stories. However, I DO forward them in support of our troops regardless. Whether the email is just a story or not doesn't matter if it is forwarded as a symbol of support. I applaud you for forwarding them, Gamergirl, and if I were you and received complaints from those that I sent it to, I would simply remove them from my forwarding list to be sure as not to send them anything else they don't want.
    
    Your efforts to support our troops are commendable and just as people have the right to bash them, we also have the right to defend them. And I will do that until my last breath just as I hope that you continue to as well.
    
    Bonnie Ramsey

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    barrancaposted 17 years ago

    I don't like to judge soldiers either.  I thought the way vietnam vets were treated after the war was reprehensible.  And the way Bush won't adequately fund Vets' health care is also an abomination.
    And I don't like how the democrats won't stop funding the war when the American people have spoken.  And I don't like how our troops keep dying in a dubious cause.    And in some sense, soldiers in Iraq are "pawns in their game"  the game of the masters of war and all who profit from war.  I also don't like knee-jerk patriots who won't to listen to reasoned opposition because they think to oppose the war is to "not support our troops".

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    College politicoposted 17 years ago

    If any American doesn't support our troops (regardless of how you feel about the war in general) then I suggest they leave the country they are defending.

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       Mark Knowlesposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       The First Amendment - An explanation for those unable to understand the concept
       

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          Iðunnposted 17 years agoin reply to this

          that
          
          
          
          that too.

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          College politicoposted 17 years agoin reply to this

          I didn't say they HAVE to leave I SUGGESTED they leave. Also I clearly wasn't talking to you since you are not American.

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       Mishaposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       Which one they are defending in Iraq?

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          College politicoposted 17 years agoin reply to this

          Do we really want to get into an Iraq debate here?

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             Mishaposted 17 years agoin reply to this

             You can substitute Iraq for Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, etc. - if you like

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                College politicoposted 17 years agoin reply to this

                Fine, here we go on another 200 post thread...
                
                These are going to be fairly simplistic explanations of complex situations so they won't encompass all of the reasonings, benefits, and detractions but here we go anyway.
                
                1. Vietnam and Korea: they were intended to stop the spread of communism as it was in the best interest of American (and the west in general's) National security. Hind sight is 20/20 in the strategy of fighting the war in vietnam (as they are in all wars). Unfortunately we left vietnam and the entire region was left defenseless to brutal communist dictators who murdered millions (which didn't exactly back up the argument that America was the only influence preventing peace in the region). However, in the case of Korea... we were lucky enough to secure south korea and the difference between the north and south is abundantly clear which in my eyes makes the war just and beneficial for south korea, America, and the west.
                
                2. Iraq and Afghanistan: They are being fought to prevent the spread of islamic extremism in both the short term and long term. This is being done first through physically combating the terrorists in both countries and through the promotion of democratic governments and institutions. Thus in the long term it will defend the west and the middle east from the spread and dominance of extremism.

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                   Mishaposted 17 years agoin reply to this

                   I think it was a mistake on my side to talk to you again. You don't know logic and you don't understand reasoning. Sorry, I'm not interested in any discussion with you. Bye

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                      College politicoposted 17 years agoin reply to this

                      How wonderfully rude of you...

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    barrancaposted 17 years ago

    I just reread JS Mill's famous little book 'On Liberty".  It must be one of the greatest, reasoned defenses of free speech, press ever written.  And for anyone suggesting the "love it or leave it" truism, as Politico is more or less suggesting, should be required to read it carefully.

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       College politicoposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       Again that has no basis in this situation because I am not saying people who hate our troops should be forced to leave our country but rather that they should leave of their own free will.

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          Ralph Deedsposted 17 years agoin reply to this

          I have yet to hear a single person say anything remotely like they "hate the troops." That kind of claim comes from the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and their ilk who claim that liberals and people who oppose the war "hate the troops." Other than criticism for the AbuGhraib and other atrocities I haven't even heard any criticism of our troops let alone, hate talk. This right wing PR strategy started with the movie "First Blood," the first Rambo movie with the line spouted by Sylvester Stallone that "I did what I had to do to win. But somebody wouldn't let us win....and "those maggots at the airport, protesting, spitting, calling me baby-killer...as a result of the movie and the repetition by movement conservatives of the images of protesters spitting on returning servicemen have become ingrained in the popular culture despite lack of documented evidence that this actually happened. (I'm indebted to Paul Krugman for this bit of history--"Conscience of a Liberal," page 185. An excellent book BTW.)
          
          So, where are these people who "hate our troops"?  Those are no more than movement conservative code words designed to distract and turn the public away from people who don't support irresponsible, foolish, unnecessary and costly wars.

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             College politicoposted 17 years agoin reply to this

             No. You're just plain wrong. There are plenty of people who just plain hate the troops...
             
             Heres some examples:
             http://www.ubersite.com/m/51954
             http://raimd.wordpress.com/2007/03/14/f … -troops-2/
             http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fus … =104110207
             http://paperdove.org/drupal2/?q=node/99
             http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2DtGcw_VMc
             
             I got all of these from a quick google search and I'm sure I could find other examples from the vietnam era.
             
             And again I don't put people who disagree with the war into the same category with people who don't support our troops.

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                singingmommyposted 17 years agoin reply to this

                God Bless Our Troops! We are free because of their sacrifice! I will won't dare shame or belittle, but hold them in highest regards and honor. For the sake of our children and our future we must trust their efforts to defend our country and support them and root for them. It's easy to bad mouth them in our little cozy bubbles and arrogant attitudes, but they see the real enemy that the media never talks about. I have a nephew that has fought this war bravily the past few years. He has survived, thank God. He is so passionate and well-educated about the enemy he is up against that he re-enlisted twice and is headed to Afganistan again.............. He was not forced by Bush or any Repulican or recruiter, he chose to defend his country and he vouches that the same is with the MAJORITY of all brave AMERICAN SOLDIERS.

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                   Marisa Wrightposted 17 years agoin reply to this

                   Singingmommy, as someone else said, it's actually quite rare to see people badmouthing the soldiers themselves, except in apocryphal stories on the internet.  However, there are very many people (especially outside the US, where the media is more free) who feel that in Iraq, the US army is NOT defending the US.  If the US had been attacked, it would have been a different story, but it wasn't.   It's now well established that Iraq had nothing to do with the 9/11 attack.   
                   
                   The soldiers who are in Iraq are doing the best job they can, it's just a pity they were sent there in the first place.

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                Ralph Deedsposted 17 years agoin reply to this

                Well, that surprises me. I've never run across that kind of material. I guess I'll have to back off a bit. However, from reading some of the links, these appear to me to be far out marginal, not very bright people to whom hardly anyone pays attention. The best way to deal with them is to ignore them. Rightwing critics try to, with some success, tar liberals and the Democratic party with this "hate the troops" brush. I would put them in the same category as the "Minute Men" survivalists, Aryan Nation and other fringe groups who nobody in his right mind agrees with. I repeat nobody with whom I'm acquainted, including many Democrats and probably more Republicans (most of whom are no longer supporting the Iraq war), has expressed any sentiments against the troops in Iraq or Afghanistan. Most of them want to support the troops by bringing them home ASAP or as reasonably soon as an orderly withdrawal can be organized and executed. Their criticism is directed at Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, the neocons and the others responsible for the foolish and costly invasion and for messing up the occupation after a successful invasion.

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                   Marisa Wrightposted 17 years agoin reply to this

                   What Ralph said.  The internet gives a voice to all kinds of people who once upon a time, would not have been given airplay.

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          Ralph Deedsposted 17 years agoin reply to this

          Again, where are all these mythical people who "hate our troops?" I've never met one. They are a creature of movement conservatives' imaginations or in the case of Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh, of their warped and devious minds.

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    barrancaposted 17 years ago

    Politico such "suggestions", historically speaking, are often quickly followed by jackboots, mobs, tar and feathers and lynchings.

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       College politicoposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       My suggestion is that it is dishonest and wrong to profit from the protection of those you despise and in a country in which you may leave of your own free will it would seem to be proper for someone who despises those who protect that country to do so. It just seems logical and fair.
       
       I am in no way suggesting that people who despise our troops should be forced to leave or physically harmed in any way.
       
       (also Id like to point out that I am NOT considering anti-war to be the same as anti-soldier)

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    barrancaposted 17 years ago

    If you want to see who is profiting from the "protection" of this war, I suggest you look into Bush, Cheney and their friends' stock portfolios.

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       Iðunnposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       that too and I have the sources, although now I'm too terrified to link to news.  I might get turned in

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       College politicoposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       You do realize that for a situation in which Bush and Cheney start a war so that their already rich friends can become more wealthy would require a conspiracy so vast that it would encompass the entire federal government right?
       
       And I don't mean just the republican party or elected officials. I mean the vast majority of the republican party, the vast majority of the democratic party and the majority of life-time bureaucrats.

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    Mark Knowlesposted 17 years ago

    Well, I have to say, college politico - when the time comes, you will make a GREAT politician. You have gone, in the space of a few posts from:
    
    Not supporting:
    
    
    to hating the troops :
    
    
    to finally - despising:
    
    
    I will stay out of arguing whether you are right or wrong, but that's pretty underhanded.

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       College politicoposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       I consider the three to be analogous. Since I only see situations in which those who don't support the troops also hate and despise them.

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    Mark Knowlesposted 17 years ago

    Well, I have a feeling there will be a few who will disagree. And as you rightly point out, I am not American - but I am married to an American, and lived in the US for ten years. Also I feel the same way about my own country's troops as I do the US troops. And I can only speak for myself in this.
    
    I do not support them (US or UK) because I think they are doing the bidding of the politicians and the corporations and protecting the interests of the minority. But - I do not hate them or despise them. In fact, in the case of many US servicemen and women, I almost feel sorry for them.
    
    Many of them are duped by the "Be all you can be," propaganda so widely spread through the US media and while I think they should be held accountable for their actions and choices, many of them still believe they are doing the right thing.
    
    Also, many of them are forced into the military because they see it as the only way of of a poor situation. My wife's father for one - he went to Vietnam to escape a poor North Carolina mill town that had seen better days - he genuinely believed he was doing the best he could to get out of future-less situation and couldn't see that he had a choice - he enlisted.
    
    But I also think you are using this rhetoric as a tool to inflame and create guilt.
    
    There is a huge difference between not supporting and despising.

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    Mark Knowlesposted 17 years ago

    Cool ...... How many people did he kill?

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       College politicoposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       What a disgusting comment...

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          Mark Knowlesposted 17 years agoin reply to this

          Well, soldiers kill people. That's what they do. Or did you forget?

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             College politicoposted 17 years agoin reply to this

             You know exactly what your comment was meant to entail. You were clearly implying that he wanted to kill people...
             
             That is disgusting.
             
             Our soldiers are there right now protecting the Iraqi people from extremists.

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                Mark Knowlesposted 17 years agoin reply to this

                By killing them - that's what soldiers do.

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                   College politicoposted 17 years agoin reply to this

                   No. By stopping the extremists from killing the Iraqis.
                   
                   We all know that the civilians being killed in Iraq are being killed by the extremists.

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    Mishaposted 17 years ago

    Mark, that's the girl from the same company if you forgot. They just don't hear anything but themselves....

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       Mark Knowlesposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       Yeah - I know - I am out of here. God bless

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          College politicoposted 17 years agoin reply to this

          Please never come back. You're comments are sickening.

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    Mark Knowlesposted 17 years ago

    Wow, you are less well-educated than I thought - I am with Misha - there's no talking to you or your singing friend. Bye.
    
    God Bless you all

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       College politicoposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       Yet another exceedingly rude comment... surprise surprise.

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    Mark Knowlesposted 17 years ago

    http://hubpages.com/hub/Misha-and-Mark- … ng-Vaginas
    
    This was much better.

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       College politicoposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       Doesn't that violate hubpages policy?

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    Marisa Wrightposted 17 years ago

    I wanted to post one of Darkside's smileys but I can't work out how to do it.  Just call me techno-hopeless
    
    Imagine a virtual bucket of water over the two of you, please!

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    Marisa Wrightposted 17 years ago

    Gee Mark, what did you do to upset Businessguru?

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