Does science tell stories?
- pburgerposted 14 years ago
0Although at first glance your answer makes sense, if we go a bit deeper, I think that the perception or "knowledge" we get from our sensorial experiences is not the basis to distinguish "fact" from "fiction". Do anyone today believe that the Sun goes around the Earth? (I hope no one,
) For us, that believe is a "fiction", "a myth", or a "superstition", but that "knowledge" came from common observation and was sanctioned by science for many centuries. In fact, "scientific knowledge" usually debunks "truths" that are based on sensorial experience. So sensorial "knowledge" can't be the foundation to decide that something is "a fact" or not.
Paradoxically, "science" also creates another sort of fictions due to the limitations of language, human knowledge and the ideological constraints of culture. For instance, in 1803 John Dalton developed a theory of the matter which stated that it was composed of tiny indivisible particles called atoms. Decades after that "truth was proven incorrect, and its stirs a lot of debate among mathematicians and physicists.
Just a thought!
(I know this reflection doesn't gives a "definitive" answer to the query about the difference between "fact' and "fiction", but I'll reflect on that.)OMG terced ojos, you confuse me with Richard Dawkins?
Where do I claim ownership or affiliation to absolute laws? Where in my post do draw the idea that I subscribe to the 'logical, rational, scientific minded persons' absolute refusal to concede the possibility' of metaphysical existence?
True. I do not believe in a paternal omniscient being commonly called God. But I do think a rational mind fails to encounter a plethora of phenomena.
I agree with you that 'the so-called logical, rational, scientific minded ... people are fanatical and no different than their religious counterparts'.
As for the taste and smell of a thought, I would say put the idea in reverse - smell and taste are thoughts used to describe particular physical sensations.
I hope you can stop laughing at me, and start to laugh with me
Terced, you have valid points...and if anyone were to try and answer some of the interesting questions you bring to light, one would drive themselves crazy because many things have no answer and must be left alone or taken on faith. As you know, faith is when you believe in something greater then humankind. I enjoyed reading your comments
Thank you again Jane Bovary, for answering on my behalf. Did I really post those words? It matters not, really, does it?
I'm sure you have my best interests at heart 
One conclusion might be...I don't know!
But why would you ask such a difficult and profound question of such a silly semantic 'postmodern' prate like me?
oops I almost forgot the obligatory 
I don't ever recall science ever offering a "truth" objective or otherwise.
The language of science is mathematics.That I agree with you in terms that mathematics is the language of some natural sciences. I just wanted to point out that mathematics is also a convention, a construct, like language. I wanted to express that idea because many people believe that the "objectivity" of science relies on the "fact" that is built on a "precise" or "non-subjective" language: mathematics. (I guess, from your other posts that you don't believe the latter
)Any "objectivity" will always be subject to the tear down from "subjectivity." I'll remain sane and stay subjective for now; thanks.
I don't equate our languages to the "language" of mathematics in regards to construct considering the construct of mathematics is not something men created but instead was discovered.
I can help ya out, CaribeM: Just call everything an illusion and be done with it. ...This seems to be your line of thoughts and it is definitely the easiest way to look at things; nothing wrong with that.
Mathematics wasn't just discovered at one time or one place, but over long periods of time and in numerous places. String theory alone has brought about a new line of mathematical discoveries only recently, most of it I have little understanding.
It's interesting to note that Einsteins own mathematical formulas were so elegant and simple, yet so premise to what effect reality was producing.
Why not just consult a dictionary like everyone else?
On the contrary, your assertions were corrected for their obvious flaws.
Yes, I know, it is a moot subject. That's what everyone has been trying tell you.(Q)
If you took time to read allthe posts in this forum, you would see a variety of opinions on the question. So, only in your mind will you find a moot question... But that does not answer my question 'Does science tells stories?' Rather, your desire to assert your story/theory of a moot question examples my point... . You tell a very short story...
Your reliance on the dictionary shows that you insist that language must always reveal a very narrow story. Have you not heard of connotations, as opposed the denotations contained in the dictionary? Does your scientific mind not include post-structuralist and deconstructionist literary theory? For four decades linguists, philosophers, and literary theorists have understood that language far exceeds the meanings found in any dictionary.
For example, ambiguity is context-dependent: the same linguistic item (be it a word, phrase, or sentence) may be ambiguous in one context and unambiguous in another context. For a word, ambiguity typically refers to an unclear choice between different definitions as may be found in a dictionary. A sentence may be ambiguous due to different ways of parsing the same sequence of words.
What is more, the lexical ambiguity of a word or phrase consists in its having more than one meaning in the language to which the word belongs. "Meaning" ... refers to whatever should be captured by a good dictionary. For instance, the word “bank” has several distinct lexical definitions, including “financial institution” and “edge of a river”. Another example is apothecary. You could say "I bought herbs from the apothecary." This could mean you actually spoke to the apothecary (pharmacist) or went to the apothecary (drug store).
Ambiguous expressions often appear in texts associated with the physical and mathematical sciences. In maths, it is common practice to omit multiplication signs in mathematical expressions. Also, it is common, to give the same name to a variable and a function, for example, ~f=f(x)~. Then, if one sees ~f=f(y+1)~, there is no way to distinguish, does it mean ~f=f(x)~ multiplied by ~(y+1)~, or function ~f~ evaluated at argument equal to ~(y+1)~. In each case of use of such notations, the reader is supposed to be able to perform the deduction and reveal the true meaning. Thus, ambiguity is not alien to texts that deal with science.
As for 'Does science tells stories?' I say yes, because taking story as a common term for a description of a sequence of events. I argue that, in one form or another, this is precisely what many scientific papers do... The difference I see between narrative stories and scientific stories, is not the methods that produce the stories, but the representational mode of the language the writer uses to express the content that fills the form.You jump on my early draft, and thereby show that you cannot wait until I complete my post. Thus, you have not formed an argument based on my completed thoughts - hence you put out another straw man argument.
As for 'the scientific method ... have you looked that up yet?'
Yes! And look what I found.
1) A scientific method seeks to explain the events of nature in a reproducible way, and to use these reproductions to make useful predictions. You might not know, or admit, this is what modern stories do. Modern stories solve a problem and provide examples for people to compare with similar situations.
2) a scientific theory ... is always open to falsification if new evidence is presented. Even the most basic and fundamental theories may turn out to be imperfect if new observations are inconsistent with them. That is not like the science I read about in the posts in this forum.
3) An enormous range of scientific literature is published... Literature! Science is associated with literature?
An open mind is the hallmark of a scientist - a mind closed moot points belongs to a dogmatist...
What is the reason for this post? Is religion the motive?
For instance Newton's third law of motion...
Yeah, that Newton character was such a moron. I mean, who the heck uses math to explain things in the real world? He probably should have just waved his arms around like you did.
No, what you ken is a person who can think outside the usual confines of indoctrinated belief.
Science tells ALL SORTS of stories.
Have you ever watched the Discovery Channel?
They even use CGI to show you EXACTLY how it COULD have been, and just exactly what creatures will (probably) look like in thousands of years.
Fascinating stuff.
Where the problem comes in isn't with how Science is "done". The problem comes in when media reports on Science and doesn't do the best job of it; or else when people get their Science from television, popular magazines, etc.; and "run with" the incomplete information they got. Consumes of this kind of information also often don't know what went into coming up with what; so some will doubt it, and others will "make up stuff" about what they don't know.
Also, there's this kind of thing: Someone reports, "Studies link looking at leaves too closely with broken arms." The report will say essentially say something like, "Scientists don't know if people who are interested in leaves may be older people and therefore more likely to have Osteoarthritis; and it isn't known whether people interested in looking closely at leaves climb trees more often."
In the meantime, the general public gets the information from media aimed at the general public (which usually leaves out "all that stuff the general public won't understand, or be interested in"), a lot of people in the general public will see this report, and start telling everyone else, "Don't look at leaves or else you'll get a broken arm." Groups are formed, pressure starts being put on the government to change laws - and before you know it your town is outlawing looking at leaves and "educating" elementary school kids about the "dangers of leaf-looking".
Everything you have you owe to science and it's "opinions."
Again, I repeat for your pleasure and understanding, science does not offer "truths"
It matters not for those who do not hold this view as it is a view of ignorance.
Science does not offer "truths" because truths are absolute, you will only find truths in religion.
Rubbish. The speed of light is invariant, for example, hence it should remain invariant.
Nice strawman argument mixed with fallacy, got any more of those gems?
Legality has nothing to do with science. Just an fyi.
(don't understand what you mean, but thanks!?)
(but I tell ya this - the more I get involved in these discussions/debates the more I believe I need to get to college!! LOL)
The only stories I see being told, such as a feign tale of utter falsehood, is the title of this thread.
Now, if you want to speak about stories, well, lets just move on into the religion & belief section of the forums, shall we? To me, when I hear the phrase "telling stories" in that context, I think of fictional tales wrote for amusement, lies, falsehoods, etc. Of course, you may be using a completely different definition of "stories." I understand the concepts in which knowledge builds throughout generations, that theories change and sometimes, facts. I also realize the Homo sapiens have a limited understanding of the universe, and even Earth, for that matter. But, I don't look at researchers and scientists as "telling stories." Hell, I thought we all knew that science wasn't infallible.
This topic is so elementary, that I'm yet to see the point...I used 'we' as a figure of speech. I never thought you would think I meant the entire world.
No, I don't read fiction anymore; I did when I was a little kid. I don't read drama either, whether it is factual or fictional.
Going by this thread, I suppose you think medical science is fictional as well???
I guess one could always jump up from the operating table and say, "no, don't fix me; this is fiction!" LOL!
Pburger asked: "A science paper is supposedly objective truth. But if language is the medium of expression, and all language is subjective, how objective the language of science?"
Lets deconstruct the premises of this question:
1. "A science paper is supposedly objective truth" Mmmmm... "Science papers" are inquiries about existing knowledge, their purpose is to test and debate institutionalized beliefs and assertions. If "science papers" where written on the premise that they are "objective truths", scientific disciplines will no exist, since there was nothing to challenge. Historically, the notion that science conveys an "objective truth" is a view from the "modern era" (roughly from the 15th to the mid-20th century). So, to believe today that Scientific knowledge reflects "objective truths" is as fashionable as to believe in the humoral or miasmatic theories of disease.
2. "if language is the medium of expression, and all language is subjective..."
First of all, language is A medium for expression, not THE medium of expression. There are also other mediums of expression like signs, symbols, artistic forms, mathematics, etc. And of course, language is A medium to construct knowledge, but not the only one. Secondly, I believe that the statement that "all language is subjective" (which implies that it belongs to the thinking subject, rather than to the object of though, thus pertaining to a characteristic of an individual) is inaccurate and misleading. Instead, and following the reflections from the "linguistic turn" philosophers, language and everything we think of as 'reality' is a convention, or more clearly, a practice established by usage. So language is not subjective, is a cultural form.
In short, the whole premise of the question is misleading...I agree with your first point, that 'objective truth' is an aging thesis. However, I would say too many people are not up-to-date with the latest developments in theories of truth. Hence I posed my question to gauge what degree the aging views persists.
On your second though, I think you make a pedantic point without reference to social context of the question. You focus on the use of definitive article, somewhat in the manner of an aging analytical philosopher. You make a mountain of my failure to write with exacting precision, but omit a grammatical element from your penultimate sentence. I think you rely on the text alone and make an ungenerous reading of my question. For reasons of concision, and the social context of the web, I wrote 'But if language is the medium of expression'; but I began the question with 'A science paper '. Hence, I imply the two elements and so a generous interpretation would understand that I meant something like 'if language is the medium of expression for a science paper'
So, I disagree that 'the whole premise of the question is misleading'. Rather I think your argument is flawed and rests on the religion of science; an unquestioned faith in 'modern' science.
But, as a skeptic and a devil chaplain, I look forward to your retort and thank you for your provocative opinion.First of all, my apologies if my post sounded pedantic (or offensive), that was not my intention. I just wanted to provoke a debate that I think goes to the heart of the matter: that language, meanings and their effects are relevant. And I guess that's an important point if we want to establish a difference between "fact" and "fiction".
I took your question very seriously. But I also think that is important to reflect on the question itself before trying to offer an answer/opinion about the subject. When I analyzed the question I found some premises that in my shortsighted and subjective point of view, did not "hold water". I appreciate your grammatical clarification on the use of "the". But I must ask you: what do you think about the second part of my statement about "language"?
"I think you rely on the text alone" Well I don't know you and that's the only thing you offered... text without context. I would also add that I didn't attach to your text any kind of hidden intention; to make it more clear, I didn't go personal.
On the other hand, which part of my post suggests that it "rests on the religion of science; an unquestioned faith in 'modern' science"? Respectfully I ask you: why you find troublesome that I reflect on your "text" and then you [u]assume[u] an ideological foundation (i.e. the believe on the religion of science) in my train of thought?
BTW... I'm also an skeptic.My goodness E G Rogers,
You certainly seem to have a bee in your bonnet
You might think academia a brutal place, but 1) I don't think it has to be, and if it is, then it is brutal because people in that community are brutal, 2) based on my experience of academia, I don't think it is actually brutal in every case, 3) this is not academia; this is forum on a social networking site. The emphatic word being 'social'...
People come here to share opinions, to broaden their outlook and understanding. If you want to 'prove' your thesis, I wish you well in your venture, but, please, in my opinion, this is not the 'place' to pursue that goal.
Feel free to contribute your thoughts in a dignified manner that treats people as intelligent; despite their opinions differing from yours; otherwise the forum becomes a shouting-match from which nobody benefits.
With my respect genuine, and hope sincere, I look forward to your continued contributionE G Rogers,
I take up the mantel of translating you cryptic sentence
You might not comprehend, enjoy, or approve my translation but that is beside the point for I simply offer this translation to show that meaning transcends the words we use.
I decipher "The chicken and the egg are able to wolf down chairs in countries unknown to the envelopes" as meaning 'I choose to deliberately deny the opportunity for any literary meaning to come from my words for the explicit purpose of exerting a will to power so I might close down the dialogue that threatens to open up my mind...'
But alas you won't be back to make a retort
A "metaphor for an entangled mesh of intrigue." What better term for the internet!?
Thank you wilderness... you touch of humor goes a long way
Wink wink, nudge nudge.. say no more
And what better term for a thread of provocative thoughts...
A few more thoughts:
(1) As to fiction, the old definition of it is "the willing suspension of disbelief" - overly simplistic, but it does stimulate interesting questions. (What do we call: UNwilling suspension of disbelief; inability to suspend disbelief - or belief; unwillingness to suspend belief; willing suspension of belief?)
(2) Just as the word "science" derived from the Latin word for knowledge, the Old English and Middle English words for knowing/ knowledge/ perception developed into several modern English words, including wit, witness, wise, wisdom, wizard, witch, and wicked. A lot of subjectivity went into the connotations that developed for those words - just as subjectivity goes into the connotation we give to the word "science."
(3) Science may be considered "bad science" or "good science" for some silly reasons, as well as for some valid ones. But human knowledge, whether expressed in mathematical or linguistic terms, automatically includes the human element. The human element may manifest itself in the selection of topics for observation, experiment, or research; it may manifest itself in the interpretation and explanation of data; it may manifest itself in the review of peers, who are still human even when they try to be as objective as possible.
Reliance on science () still includes a degree of faith, whether it be faith in the process, faith in the integrity of the scientists and their underwriters, or faith in their ability to interpret correctly the outcome of their experiments.Do you need faith to determine that cells exist and also die? Do you need faith to say that malnutrition is not healthy? Do you need faith to realize that we can easily calculate a degree of heat? WTF? Subjectivity versus Objectivity is a load of crap, to put it nicely. ...It is all the same, in the never-ending end of endless infinity.
You sure proved my point with the silly semantics and excessive use of faith used to express such notions, along with the devolved twist of complicating simple scenarios and questions due to overanalyzing the basic actuality of existence. Geez, I wish I would have asked you more elementary questions so you could have typed a little more, ha-ha!
Cell life: Anyone who is semi-aware will understand the basic cycles of life without science or religion or faith - to have some grasp on the concept of life & death. The universe demonstrates such, along with the life that is adhered to this planet. Duh!
Malnutrition: Food is a basic survival element; if you need language to explain this, you've got problems.
Temperatures: You don't know hot from cold? You actually have to elaborate about that question? Unbelievable...
Subjectivity vs. Objectivity: This is your subjective view about objectivity, so what's objectivity without being subjective? LOL! It is all the same... A concept of universal unity would have no divide...
Yep, it is silly semantics, just as you demonstrated, so what's your point?You ask 'You don't know hot from cold?'
I understand Aficionada's point to be that the difference between hot and cold is relative not absolute. Compared to someone who lives their life on the equator, someone who spends their entire life in the arctic circle will have a different opinion of what is a hot day. But both people will know just like you that boiling water is more painful than river water. They might not attribute the pain to heat, they might think the water-spirit was angry. In fact, without modern technology someone living on the equator might not believe in the existence of solid water - ice.
So, I believe Aficionada alluded to the politics of language too often overlooked by proponents of positivist science. Where I live, we have many indigenous cultures and they do not live according to the dictates of the scientific method. Sure, they live without many modern technologies. But life goes on without science.
And history of science is replete with political campaigns. I draw your attention to Issac Newton who spent two decades disparaging those colleagues of his who did not write in his preferred form; what is now accepted as the classic scientific paper.
As for your claim that 'This is your subjective view about objectivity', I ask what makes any of your pronouncements in this thread anything other than subjective. None of your posts contains science, numbers, equations, theories, law, hypothesis... You post your opinions.
Can you come up with a theory of language that attests to the objectivity of science?
I believe I have read several theories that attest to the subjectivity of science...
I look forward to your reply
Praise be the infinite distortions of illusions!
pburger, could I ask what you think of the process of scientific method? A good debate so far.
I've never respected asininity, but I have been very nice thus far, so what's your point? Hell, I was just trying to help ya think a little further and perhaps, eventually, a little more clear...
Ha-ha! I have no faith in science or religions; there are many methods to gain knowledge and awareness. Now your last set of comments was funny, and literally made me laugh... LOL!
Keep stirring the pot! :LOL!
I just have to meet the religious fundy with any desire to know more about anything other than their religion myself, I can see where you're coming from for the rest of it though. That experience must have been infuriating!
Within this thread, I have seen comments that have made use of colloquial, archaic, or specialized word denotations and connotations (not to mention my snide reference to an obscure meaning of the word "nice").
Even words like "science," "fact," "truth," "objective" and "subjective" may not communicate what we mean, unless we at some point agree on a definition of terms, as one poster mentioned above.
A little more about my temperature comment: the various scales of measuring temperature are, to some degree, based on how we communicate the concepts that are being measured. We use language to discuss, refine, and communicate concepts like degree, boiling point, freezing point, fever, etc. And someone (Celsius?) used language to explain why he thought it made sense to divide the interval between freezing point and boiling point into 100 segments, instead of 180.
Temperature perception is the point of an anecdote I heard once: One day the temperature in Lagos, Nigeria, in Lynchburg, Virginia/USA, and in London, England was 72 degrees, all at the same time of day. In Lagos, everyone said it was freezing; in Lynchburg, everyone said the temperature was perfect; and in London, they said they were having a heat wave. - Subjective observations about an objectively measured event.
And about the bullet: the actual fact of the bullet's departure from the barrel of the gun - the fact (the truth?) of it - is something that can be discussed, described and measured objectively, if the target/victim survives the event; and of course it can be described by people other than the victim in any case. But an observer's perception of the event (the bullet's journey) will occur first as emotional awareness, and that will be followed by cognitive perception, according to fairly recent experiments in neuroscience.
Related to a scientist's openness to the possibility of the existence of God, one of my favorite quotes from Molecules of Emotion is "Absence of proof is not proof of absence."No - but it is a reasonable indicator. There is a very strong likelihood that your god does not exist. Face it and stop wasting your time using semantics to justify an irrational belief.
Infinite number of possible gods that there is no evidence for or against. Infinity to one against is pretty long odds, which is scary when you think of all the peopel who jump on the "pleeeze - I want to live forever! Don't let me die!", bandwagon.....
If people like you did not go around pretending it did exist - think of all the wars and fights that could have been prevented.
Just remember - "Absence of proof is not proof in favor."Ah - but you are not open minded are you? You have already decided and actively pray to this invisible super being.
And yes - your irrational decision to believing in one super being from all the possible super beings is just that - irrational.
You said yourself that "absence of proof is not proof of absence." So - on that basis - there are an infinite number of possible gods. You have decided on one. That is irrational.
My position is - I do not believe in any gods. But - I am open to the possibility and if one of the infinite possibilities cares to make itself known to me or present some evidence - I will cheerfully change my position. But - in the total absence of evidence - I am going with - No.
I think your decision to hang your hat on an infinity:one bet is pretty irrational - yes.
And why is it that all you believers distance yourself from the wars and fights caused by making this irrational decision - which even now - you feel the need to defend, albeit with words - but there are no shortage of you prepared to pick up a gun to do so. But - we can pretend the last 2000 years of wars never happened if that will make you feel better.
People like you = people prepared to believe in a particular infinity:one proposition with no evidence and fight to defend it.
Semantics = see your last three posts.Mark,
What posts give you cause to say contributors to this thread 'have already decided and actively pray to this invisible super being'?
If you pride yourself as open-minded, then why when face with people who hold a view different to yours do you say they 'are irrational'? What makes you think you are so rational? What makes you think rationality is superior? Are the creation stories of indigenous cultures irrational?
As for your position - I note a high-degree of irrationality. You use words without questioning how you use them, or the meaning you think they have, and certainly without regard for the effect they have; in my mind that is clearly irrational - much akin to running around a room full of people while you are armed with a loaded shotgun... Neither friendly nor rational...I thought we were speaking metaphorically.
But - now I know where you are coming from - which is what I suspected. Another religionist without a religion attempting to show that rational thinking and the scientific method are no better at explaining the universe than faith-based irrational beliefs.
Warning. Metaphor Ahead!!!
I like to think of it as a gentle prod with a blunt stick rather than running around a crowded room with a shotgun.
Metaphor Over! All Clear!!LMAO
Thank you for the gentle prod with your blunt stick Mark
I do not see myself as a 'religionist'. And I think a religious fanatic would outcast me. I like to think of myself as between the camps - neither irreligious nor religious. for you see, I simple do not buy into that binary hierarchy. Where you see two poles, I see a continuum, a spectrum.
What I try to do is remain open to all possibilities even the possibility that I am wrong. I like to think that ways of interpreting the world other the science might benefit me, somehow, somewhere, sometime in my life...
If that brings to your mind the image of 'a person addicted to religion or a religious zealot' then that is a matter out of my hands and I shall not try to change your mind...
Doubt all you like Jane Bovary.
But your posts suggest to me that hold dear the scientific method. If that is correct then should you not keep an open mind until you have evidence to support your doubt? And I suspect you used the word 'doubt' to tone-down what you mean - 'BAH HUMBUG!' But where is you evidence to countervail my assertion that Einstein was a devout Christian?
Or because this is not a laboratory of science are evidence and reasoning not brought to bear on this lively discussion?It seems as though you have misunderstood the scientific method. Pulling random, base-less assertions out of your backside and demanding they stand until some one else disproves them is actually the religious method.
I think you over-determine the differences and under-estimate the similarities between the fictions of science and science of fictions
And my researched thesis rests on science and mathematics - The thesis - Beach combing knowledge in the digital age of literary production - is due for submission to my alma mater within 3 months...
Simply because you have not researched the matter as thoroughly as someone else does not invalidate the thesis.
Obligatory
-
Shakespeare made the clown a most insightful character and gave him many of the best insights. So your attempt at an insult falls flat on its face.
As for being called 'a great waste of space' - I thank you for the compliment. I find nothing offensive about a great waste of space - Goodness I can recall many wonderful times spent in great wastes of space. Hours of joyful childish fun spent in the great waste of space called football fields and the hills that surround the city of my childhood, and the vast awe-inspired wastes of space between the planets - I'm like them? That's so cool
Thank you RodLMAFO
I know you do not know what political actions I take? So you are clearly make judgments based on ignorance Supercilious troll!
Cark-my-arse-orf
I thought science taught you that nothing is obvious.
Let me see now you say I 'cannot see the difference between stories based on fact and stories intended to be fiction'. Well for two reasons, I beg to differ.
First, I do see the difference. Whether or not you accept my proposition is neither here nor there.
Second, my question 'Does science tell stories?' is not about 'the difference between stories based on fact and stories intended to be fiction' as you like call it. My question is about the similarities - you used the word story in connection to fact and to fiction. You implicitly acknowledged that science tells stories although they are about fact.
The point being they are stories So, thank you for your contribution to this thread because you help me feel confident that science does tell stories.
Back To the Future - now there was a story - Michael J Fox Rocks
- LOMAO and thank you for this pithy contribution.
Yes, there was a story or three, or was it four? And inadvertently, IMO, you raise two interesting points? To whose future did he return? And, was the story based in fact or fiction? Is time travel possible, according to science?
In 2008, Michio Kaku published the book 'Physics of the impossible' in which he included a chapter on time travel. Michio Kaku is no anti-rationalist but a renowned physicist. Kaku (p. 221) writes 'Hawking also raised a challenge to the world of physics. There ought to be a law, [Hawking] proclaimed, making time travel impossible.'
Yet, according Kaku (p. 222) 'The embarrassing thing, however, was that no matter how hard physicists tried, they could not find a law to prevent time travel.'
Kaku continues, 'Once considered to be fringe science, time travel has suddenly become a playground for theoretical physicists. Physicist Kip Thorne of Cal Tech writes, 'Time travel was once solely the province of science fiction writers. Serious scientists avoided it like the plague... One now finds scholarly analyzes of time travel in serious scientific journals.'
So, Irish Observer, do you see a clear distinction between fact and fiction as per the classic scientific view?
BTW - IMO - MJ Fox 'rocks' but that's because his mind is somewhat unbalanced
HUH?
When you say 'give the instigator solid data to work with' I gather that you think you gave me 'solid data' that nobody can question let alone refute...
But I don't see your credentials, when did anybody in this thread usurp the authority to
Upon what do you base your assertion that 'he doesn't like it'. Because 'he' questioned you? LMAO
As far as I can tell, GW BUSH and his imperial mind are not on this side of the discourse- OIC - you did not contribute to the lowering of the tone?
'tis all my fault?
How can you 'know' what I care about? If I don't care, why do I continue to converse with you? If i didn't care, I would say 'sit on your hands'! But I don't. Nor do I say don't ask questions.
If questions are the linguistic means to understanding, why must I not ask question to illuminate what you think is my ignorance? Are you saying I should go somewhere else with questions? To another thread perhaps? To some wasted space to which you don't contribute? Because that's not about to happen...
It takes two to tango, two to bicker, and two to compromise...
Glenn S - WTF?
What do you want, 'facts'?, something you can label 'truth'?
Y'all are just silly. Everybody knows ...
BDazzler
I keep out of strictly religious threads aimed at other religious people only. I don't pray and had nothing constructive to offer.
The exact purpose is to provoke an emotional response, which I find to be a more honest response than a well-considered, edited-to-show-me-in-the-best-light-possible response. It tells me a lot about the person and gives me clues as to where they are coming from when we interact in the future. It also allows me to assess them, predict their responses and see how accurate I am at doing so. It is a very useful tool, although - I must admit - I make the occasional mistake, go too far and have to apologize. They tend tomake the best friends after wards.
We can - if you prefer =- pretend that emotion has no place in human interaction. We can - should you desire - even pretend that it is evil, or sinful, or takes us further from god - or whatever you want to believe.
Which is about the response I expected from you. In fact - shockingly accurate. You have no need to feel sorry or apologize to me.
Considering how proud you are - you might want to consider the word "use" when applied to semantics, which changes the meaning quite completely.
Yes - you "use" semantics to show how righteous and correct you are. Myself - I prefer to "use" semantics to communicate as clearly as possible. Am I being clear?
Ah - in that case - we are talking at cross purposes - which is probably my fault. In which case - I apologize and agree. This is not an irrational belief. I also believe that any scientist should be open to proof that goes contrary to their beliefs. Absolutely. Otherwise we have religion all over again.
Too many vested interests unfortunately. Hard to give up a life's work when some kid comes along and proves you are wrong.
Well - I think I am reasonably safe here. I am antagonistic towards religion in general. I guess mainly because it is so disappointing and empty. I personally feel a belief in a god is something that holds us back rather than helps us move forwards.
Go forth and multiply until there is nowhere left to multiply? Not so good. Especially with the Other Religion reaching it's Evangelical stage. I see issues and clashes that could consume us all.
I don't believe you - nor am I trying to change your mind. Memes - we are changing memes as we speak and my goal is that - not to change your mind personally. It does work that way - but usually with people less set in their ways.
I mean - you are talking about scientists being open minded. How can you claim to be open minded? You have no proof for a god - and have decided based on that 100% lack of proof - A "feeling" perhaps? That there is a god. And you still consider yourself thinking? Feeling maybe. You "feel" there is something bigger - and being human - you must have an answer. God is the easy peasy answer.
How has your belief in the existence of a god changed in the past? I mean - since you decided to believe in one?
There either is or is not a god. Only agnostics are so wishy washy in their beliefs as to stay in th middle.On this point Rod, I agree with you 100%
The planet is over-populated. When will bourgeois governments wake up and smell the baby-pooh? In this respect any institution that decries birth-control is IMHO a negative influence on the future. But don't let me fool you - you keep on believing that I don't careRod, here I go with the old semantics again.
I think, strictly-speaking, I do not 'give' the impression, rather, I think you 'take' the impression from my words.
But, this very much the problem that faces much discourse, especially when emotion becomes involved.
I would like to know what examples of my language led you to 'conclude' that I do not care about the planet, since the planet is recent side-attraction to the thread...
Yahoo!
I think I see common-ground with you Mark. In conversations and threads, I hope to exchange memes. And 'I also believe that any scientist should be open to proof that goes contrary to their beliefs' and I think I see the gulf between us. I do not consider myself a strict logical positivist, nor a genuine rationalist - but a Marxist humanist - ergo a materialist - not a theist - and certainly not a post-modernist.... Hence, my emphasis on language as behavior and my view of science as a culture clothed in a special language. But as a humanist I accept a multiplicity of views, and encourage the diversity of voices...
Right on Aficionada! All hail the woman!
Why do the rationalists decry the use of language to explore the use of language? For is that not the dastardly 'semantic method'?
And Mark is so unconvincing, for the reason you suggest that his 'intentional antagonism reeks of such strong emotion'. And while I have not idea what 'caused' such a reaction we can bring the science of psychology to bear on the matter, and at least hypothesize some trauma earlier in his life. Or perhaps some fear of a future outcome, a future without science? A future when science is not the dominant faith?
But watch them jump on me - (You're POMO, how dare you uses science!)
And while I do not count myself a person of religion, I do count myself a person of faith. For example, I have faith in my ability to create a better life. And I wholeheartedly agree that it is irrational to believe that a scientist is capable of what some people in this thread do with their words.
- Yes Aficionada, while I have not read Lehrer's book I have read several books on the biology of emotions and the neurology of reason. And I agree with Lehrer that the two struggle with each other. I remember reading about an experiment that led to the conclusion that an emotional response takes place milliseconds before any thought registers in the conscious mind.
But for the revelation, I dare say the rationalists who watch this thread will be onto me like a ton of bricks...
My point was that 'thought experiments' evolved - like all ideas and processes; the Gedanken did not appear by magic ex hilio
As for my use of the phrase 'I believe', it is just a conventional form of polite conversation, to lessening any imputed authoritative tone.
And in your post I see no explication of the difference between 'hypothetical questions (what if)' and 'the Gedanken' nor any reason to accept at face-value your assertion that 'the Gedanken was only introduced in the last hundred years in science'
But thank you kindly for expressing your beliefTrue. It was conceived by a mind that didn't just believe in things.
Often, I find that phrase used a lot where thinking is not involved.
Please feel free to continue "believing" the things you do, despite reality.
(Q), did you read these statements?:
pburger: "I do not believe in a paternal omniscient being commonly called God."
pburger: "I do not see myself as a 'religionist'. And I think a religious fanatic would outcast me."
pburger: "while I do not count myself a person of religion, I do count myself a person of faith. For example, I have faith in my ability to create a better life."
*****
Back to the Forum Topic - A scientist of my acquaintance recently made a statement that will probably provoke a huge defensive outcry here. He said, "The problem with science is that its very basis, the bedrock on which it rests, is human perception. Even the 'language of mathematics,' supposedly the most objective 'language' that exists, is derived through human perception."
... Sorry to comment and run...... - as you said Back to the Forum Topic
- Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago0
Wow - Holy cow Batman!
Where does that leave views put forth by hardcore rationalists such as Richard Dawkins?oh, the botanist turned buy-my-website tee shirt and support my antagonism, Dawkins? Same place as the other side of the Ism (romantic), exactly where they were before -at each others throats til death do them part.
I imagine Wayne Newton and him having a convention in Vegas at some point. Scads of fun!
ps, I hardly see Dawkin's as a hardcore rationalist. He is a sympathizer of a very fragile ideology trying to hop the border without detection. As philosopher by nature, a true rationalist, if you will, I am unmoved by either position of the Ism.
- Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago0
Thank you ceciliabeltran
I hope 21days agrees with you Wouldn't want to put words in someone's mouth
Nevertheless, I see how you put the jigsaw together in the terms 'Attribute (quality) is restrictive and Universality (Grace) is expansive'
So, I hope you do not take the questions that follow as argumentative... but three points come to mind, and perhaps they only reflect a semantic nag that exists in my mind...
1) We can't balance opposites, the opposites balance us. But the actor of the action of balancing opposites is not clear. Given that human perception plays such an important role, how do the opposites of particularity (attribute, quality) and universality (Grace) balance without human intervention?
2) When I wrote 'How do we balance reason and emotion' perhaps the word 'balance' was a poor choice and rather than take a literal understanding can we not read between the lines? Perhaps, I might suggest the following revision 'How can we bring reason and emotion to bear in some new proportion, or according a new ratio?'
3) What equates with what: does reason equate to attribute and emotion universality; or vice verse and why? Aren't reason and emotion universal to humans?
Cheers
yes, that is my battlecry in forums.
I would like to interject, afterward you can say or do whatever.
Emotions are not reason. There is a reason for an emotion. It's explained as reactionary/instinctive, due to cause and effect.
Emotions happens due to a cause. It is the effect of that cause.
Just a thought.Thank you once again cagsil
Perhaps the relation of cause and effect is not quite as uni-linear as your post suggests - perhaps the affect is also an effect of the effect produced by the affect
Something like cause->effect->cause->effect and where you interrupt the continuum determines whether you have cause->effect or effect->cause
What do you think?Actually, I stand by what I said.
Emotions, all of them- Explain "why?" they happen?
The only way for an emotion to emerge is from some source(cause).
Someone laughs(effect) from hearing something funny(cause).
Someone cries out(effect) from being in pain(cause).
Emotions wouldn't show themselves without a cause. Sorry.I share in what ever fault is at play... after all, I built my impression from a series of words.
And if you do know about the biology of emotion then my post may encourage people other than you to make an inquiry into the subject
Cheers and thank you for your understanding attitude
- Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago0
So where does this leave us apropos the question 'Does science tell stories?'
Thanks - I will definitely read these and respond. But I can tell by the titles that I will have to take some time to digest them!
I am not averse to fiction; but what I read is, to be honest, popular rather than literary fictoin. Still, even there I have run into some non-Western thought patterns, such as in the Navajo mystery-writing of Tony Hillerman. But that's all just to say I'm open to fiction recommendations as well. And I really am looking towards reading Emotional Intelligence. The list keeps growing.- Thank you Aficionada
Of course, take all the time you need. I am sure with your sharp intellect you will return with some thought-provoking views of the ideas in those books...
I look forward to your ruminations
Thank you CaribeM
I trust you are well... I certainly found Ellen Spolsky's article an intriguing intersection of two typically disparate theoretical spaces and hope you too derive some value from her work
Cheers!
- LEWJposted 14 years ago0
EXACTLY, Q
Took the words right out of my keyboard!LewJ
If I understand by 'objective' that you mean 'the truth is not removed by the incorrect reasoning of men, nor subject to change due to scientific or personal ignorance' then I think we have common ground - to a degree. I think 'objective truth' to be pragmatic; changing throughout history. Yes, space-time is an 'objective correlate' But we have not explored the entire universe, and all of its possible aspects, micro & macro. I'm thinking of the 11 dimensions posited by string theorists...
At our present time, with our present knowledge, we cannot know for certain whether or not space and time separate or combine with other elements in regions of the universe beyond the reach of our theoretical experiments and empirical methods... Based on the inductive method of science 'objective truth' remains contingent upon our current knowledge and therefore IMO the term deserves permanent quotation marks around those words...
Hey Pburger, I do not mean to interrupt, but science applies imaginative ideas into testing methods, which can translate into a story. But, science does not tell stories in and of itself. Those who look upon science use their own imagination and use language to tell what they were thinking.
Just my thoughts on it. Back to your regularly scheduled program.Hi Cagsil,
Thank you for your 'interruption'.
In my opinion, you make a valid point 'science applies imaginative ideas into testing methods' (although I would invert the proposition 'science applies testing methods to imaginative ideas)'...
But also from my point-of-view, so does much fiction - the difference is fiction has more variety in its language-use. We writers of fiction have at our disposal what we call 'Grand Argument Stories' and 'Thematic arguments'
In fiction, a complete 'Grand Argument' covers all the ways the human mind might consider a problem and showing that only one approach is appropriate to solving it.
An author builds an argument that the Main Character was either justified or not in certain actions, then "proves" the point by concluding the story with an outcome of success or failure and a judgment of good or bad. A writer resolves a story as one of the following Success/Good, Success/Bad, Failure/Good, Failure/Bad. These four resolutions are the "Author's Proof" wherein he states his personal bias as to what the most appropriate and inappropriate choices were.
The 'test' comes with a reader decides whether the 'facts stack up'. Did the story make sense and did the actions of the characters seem appropriate? How is this different from 'genuine science'?
For details of these ideas visit http://www.dramatica.com
Back to our regular schedule...
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