This is why our country is divided.
At this moment if you are watching CNN, they are showing over 10,000 people marching and protesting about Trump. If you watch Fox New, they are talking about all the great accomplishments Trump has done while being in the UK. And in the lower right corner of the screen, barely visible in a very small frame is the feed of the protest, which they don't even acknowledge as being there. They are two separate realities.
And the left's unequivocal lack of seeing the whole picture is what costs you election after election , term after term , its what will cost you Nov, If ALL cnn can do is show the protest's , that's exactly why their ratings are consistently in the tank and your collective reality is wholly one sided !
ahorseback: The reality is neither side is showing the whole picture. That is why we are divided.
It’s not just about the media not showing the whole picture, it’s about both sides refusing to see it or realize it for themselves. Some people just can’t seem to comprehend that anyone could possibly think/feel/understand differently than they do and it results in a complete breakdown of communication. Happens all the time right here on these forums.
For me , it's about my absolute distaste for media bias , remember I've been around reading , listening , watching it evolve to this state of horribly disfiguring agenda-bias for a while , I'm 64 , To some what was once very well known to be biased -Pravda , the Russian propaganda newspaper has arrived inside the borders of the US and it has polluted not just the minds of our younger generations but many older
ones too. Even more than polluted it has trickled it's extremely ugly imagery into the classrooms of our kids . This is a dangerous era in America and you will all pay a dear price as you watch your younger children's minds eaten by a systematic breakdown , a breakdown that equally dissolves the first amendment protections ,a cancer of News Media bias promoting socialist ideologies to your children's undeveloped minds. It's bad enough that it hijacked the democratic party , watch as that fire engulfs your children too.
Good luck with that .Yep, of course your response is just to yammer on about how much smarter you are because you’re old and stuff.
Personally I’m more worried about people like you trying to dismiss my child’s intelligence or point of view than I am about the big bad media affecting her in some way.Well there you go , continue on with that great helicopter parenting ..........?
Aime, well, I'm older than Ahorseback, and I couldn't DISAGREE with him more. As a former working journalist, I see the warts on both sides and would like to wring their collective necks, all of them. I saw this trend starting in journalism school when I went back in the early 1990s to get my masters. They were still trying to teach ethics then. I have no idea what they are teaching now. Keep teaching your children honesty and ethics and don't let them watch too much TV or too much internet. It is mind rotting, as you can see.
Miz:
I am probably older than both of you. I long for the days of Walter Cronkite, John Cameron Swayze, and The Huntley Brinkley report. The news was one hour long and was presented at night. There were no 24 hour news cycles, echo chambers, and panelist giving their opinions. It was just unadulterated news, presented by real journalist.You can't be older than I am, PeoplePower, but sounds like we are close to the same age. I sat at my grandmother's knee and listened to Gabriel Heatter on the old Philco. I heard my good Christian, but angry, grandmother call the president the "baddest" word she would allow herself to say because three of her "boys" were in the war, two sons (one was my father) and one grandson. I think we get too much news today, whether fake or authentic, and it is tearing this country apart.
Damn MizBeJabbers, "Gabriel Heatter?," you are old!
I thought I was as old as dirt, but you make me seem like a spring chicken, I can only remember the "news" back to Cronkite.
I would offer one clarification; I don't think we get "too much" news today, I think we get too much of other's interpretations of the news. We get too many "news" people telling us what we heard wasn't really what we heard - what they tell us is what really heard.
GA: There is nothing worse for me to hear than politicians and pundits on these news shows saying, "This is what the American people want." How do they know what I want? What gives then the right to tell me what I want?
The next worse thing is the pivot when being questioned. When asked a question, they say, "The question you should be asking is..." They have that down to a fine art. Just answer the damn question.Hi peoplepower73,
My "nothing worse" is when the pundits come on to explain what we all just heard. As if we weren't smart enough to understand the words ourselves.
GAPeoplepower,
Though I find horses comments extremely offensive and insulting most of the time, he does have a point.
I find media bias to be extremely frustrating. CNN doesn't so much report the news anymore as they editorialize on it all the time. As a result, they have exacerbated this era of "fake news" and driven people into the arms of the Breitbarts and the Alex Jones's. After all, if you have to put up with constant bias in a news organization, why not listen or watch one that feeds you your own bias?"And While find your comments extremely naive and one thought most of the time ' --CNN , which used to be my "Go To " for news isn't just unashamedly biased ,it is biased to a liberal agenda shared by a majority of media today . Fact.
Yes , they are editorializing ALL of the time and I personally wouldn't ever belong to an ideology that collectively speaks as if it just assumes that I am of their weak and one thought mentality .
Biased media feeds to a very , very weak people and one thing Conservative America will never be is OF a weak and easily enslaved mentality .ahorseback: Sure, that's why Fox speaks in sound bites and is on 24 hours a day, because typically, its audience is driving or working and doesn't have the time to analyze what is being said. So they just accept what they hear.
That's why Trump talks to Hannity every night to reinforce his ego and get advice from a defunct bartender who doesn't have a lick of journalism or political background. He just know how to kiss ars and make megabucks of money doing it.
I have to admit, I watched Fox after the Trump/Putin meeting and those girls made sense when they said that Trump was a disgrace putting down his own country in front of an ex KGB leader. It became clear that when Trump was questioned about the 12 hackers, he reverted back to how he won the election. That's what all of this opposing the Mueller investigation is about. If they find that Trump is guilty, he loses his legitimacy as president.
So he is going to do and say everything he can to protect his legitimacy, even lie through his teeth if he has to. That's why he even brought up Hillary and the servers and won the election, and put down his own American people on the world stage.
Peoplepower, You're probably right. We probably don't get too much news, but we do get too much opinions, and that creates "fake news" on both sides.
Well, at least I beat somebody at something. LOL. If you're old as dirt, I'm older than rocks! I am a WWII baby, but even more unusual, I have a memory that goes back farther than most people say that theirs do. My mother verified my recall of a trip when I was 18 mos. old we took to see my Dad who was stationed in Texas. I was about 2 when I used to listen to Gabriel Heatter with Grandma because daddy came home when I was 3.That's a pretty amazing memory MizBejabbers. The earliest I can be sure of recalling is around 5 or 6 years old.
GAGA and Miz: I remember the radio broadcast of the detonation of an A Bomb on Eniwetok Island. I think I was about 8 years old.
I have to say, Peoplepower that you beat me in one area. My memories are generic. I don't remember Eniwetok Island being bombed. But my state claims the largest population of Marshallese in the continental U.S. Most of the folks are located at Springdale in the northwest corner of Arkansas.
MIZBEJABBERS:
I was 12 years old. Here is the YouTube link to the news reel. I heard the broadcast on the radio.
https://youtu.be/vV5tYx3Esiw
Totally agree, ahoresback. You hit it on the nose. The extreme bias is good for no one. Used to be journalists prided themselves on their audience not being able to tell which "side" of the political spectrum they were on through their reporting. What ever happened to that? And a danger to our children? Absolutely. Very scary.
Either that, or as we have seen, the devout 'establishment' politicians continue to stand together against Trump, regardless of party affiliation, which lends credibility to the whole 'Drain the Swamp' credence.
When you see the type of hostility towards Trump, for not going out of his way to make the relationship with Russia worse, that goes a long way giving yet another example of how united the 'establishment' is against his efforts to change things.
In this case, we have pursued a hostile and antagonistic relationship with Russia for the past ten years or more, our military efforts in Syria, Libya, and Iraq weren't coincidental, they were all Russian allies.
Our interference in the Ukraine was what sparked the Russian invasion into that nation, had we not funded the overthrow of that government and weaponized the opposition, the Ukraine would have never become an issue.
America also tried to interfere in the Russian election, the Georgian election, and has convinced almost all former Soviet bloc nations to join NATO.
So understand, that Trump not crapping all over Putin is a huge departure from standard operating procedures of those who have been running things in D.C. … and all the hostility towards Trump for not trying to up the ante, might just be because we have some people in D.C. that want to continue to push the war efforts against Russia and any nation that would ally themselves with them.
I disagree. Major news outlets emphasized coverage of the protests and the Trump visit on that day because they were newsworthy.
Trump's accomplishments on that day were not newsworthy.Excellent point. It is the fault of news media - both sides. Its just that T-fans actually trust Fox, while everyone else is suspicious of every newscast - especially Fox for very good reasons. (Such as the point you are making in here.)
Even more to the point... so many of Trump's fans are so damn certain that all this stuff is new, when it is not. The Left have been broadcasting their ideals for as long as The Right has - each from their own platforms - and as a result, neither side has ever had to listen to each other.
I know, STUPID lefties for even THINKING that their views would fall under free speech, free thought or freedom to express categories, also! Its amazing how T-fans have demonized them for it - and are literally AFRAID of it.
Just listen to some of ahorseback's rambles, here's a splash: "This is a dangerous era in America and you will all pay a dear price as you watch your younger children's minds eaten by a systematic breakdown , a breakdown that equally dissolves the first amendment protections ,a cancer of News Media bias promoting socialist ideologies to your children's undeveloped minds. It's bad enough that it hijacked the democratic party , watch as that fire engulfs your children too."
People have been saying those things for just about every generation since Rock & Roll was invented - and even before, LoL! (Cover those ankles, dammit!!
That is someone who is both ignorant of just how OLD the divisions on both sides are; AND controlled by fear imprinted into his mind by the Uniparty's propaganda efforts that WANT us all to fight - cuz that is just more profitable for both news outlets AND the government. Talk about can't think for himself!!!
Really, because you're older - THAT is your excuse? How can you be so ignorant of history, in general, then? Both extreme views have always been around; and the American public has had a hell of a time trying to find bipartisan footing. And now, the word bipartisan has become an offensive word to Trump fans.
We really only have one choice, and its not such a bad one - start completely over again from scratch as soon as Trump is out of office: no demonic/antichrist Hillary's or Obama's for anyone to fear; and no divisive, hate mongering assh*les to make sure we all keep fighting in the extremes.
Because the reality is, most of us swim in the middle; and we're getting awfully tired of being labeled otherwise.
A shoutout and thank you to Scotland & England for supporting the American people in protesting our potus!
Ignorance in being of conservatism opinion ? Let's talk about that for awhile ,
-While your party of the left actually attempts to change the very meaning of political reality ,
-Your party who would purchase the only protections of the first amendment , the news media and turn them against the integrity of all our governing bodies themselves .
-Your party , who would pollute the courts with left wing activists obstruction the very performance of our federal government at border protections .
-Your party polluting the minds of children in our schools turning them into little brown shirted liberals
intent on burning down a nation .
-Your party of left wing ideological agents in the DOJ , IRS and FBI turning agencies of government into politically agenda's against the tea party and conservative business' and corporate owners .
-Your party that obstructs the performance of the the house ,of congress and the president by screaming obscenities in the halls of Congress at our president .
- A political party happy to justify police officers killed on the streets of our major cities and calling it justice .
a lot to be proud of there .
But you call conservatives a danger to society ?I didn't call conservatives a danger to society. (NEWSFLASH: Fox News is not the conservative party, nor does it represent all conservatives - in the same way that the conservative party does NOT represent all Christians. They exist in every other party, as well. I know, Fox has T-fans convinced otherwise, LoL!)
T-fans have hijacked the conservative party; and maybe it even needed to be hijacked for awhile. Then again, it didn't work when Obama tried to hijack the Dems, so why would Trump work? (Especially when he is such a foul-mouthed ass. Obama would never have gotten away with talking like he does - and I've pointed this out before, you all COULD have went and found a real spokesperson for your concerns - like the 'rebel dems' did with Obama.)
Division is what brings the most profit; and cultivating fear is the best way to maintain the status quo. The uniparty has all the power - not the dems or the GOP. Its why nothing ever works and nothing ever actually gets done - they refuse to allow this country to move beyond the fighting.
Also, you and I have had this conversation before... 'the left' is NOT my party. You might try actually reading my entire post instead of assuming you already know everything - when you obviously don't.
I would have LOVED to vote for McCain instead of Obama - but Sarah Palin was pretty much a female Trump; and I refused to be part of putting someone like that on the world stage representing our country. (I know, T-fans don't like McCain either, LoL!)"-Your party that obstructs the performance of the the house ,of congress and the president by screaming obscenities in the halls of Congress at our president."
You have a lot of nerve accusing the Dems of 'obstructing the performance' of our government - when the GOP have been just as guilty in the past. For instance, Obama should have had Trump's 1st pick for Supreme Court Justice, but GOP refused to consider any of his choices.
As far as screaming obscenities at potus in the halls of congress - or anywhere else, for that matter - he reaps what he sows, and so do you.
If you're a good conservative, you should know all about that universal spiritual truth.Gosh, shall we all guess where you got this idea from, LoL! "-Your party polluting the minds of children in our schools turning them into little brown shirted liberals intent on burning down a nation."
This gives you the perfect reason to HATE new generations that are still being born. Neat. Has anyone been paying attention to the attacks on Millennials (which encompasses both conservative and liberal households)? I have, cuz young adults are my passion - and its nothing but flat-out fear-mongering.
- they weren't raised right like we were
- they have no sense of responsibility
- they are nothing but 'gimmees' who want free heathcare/college, etc.
You don't respect them nor the fact that they have minds of their own - that's another reason for them not to care.
You also want to remove regulations that were meant to protect their futures - while making conservative morals into laws that remove their freedoms. (Since conservatives can't resist temptation based on their own morals. Christian women have the highest abortion rates - why do you suppose that is? Look it up if you don't believe me.)
I haven't heard this one about them wanting to burn down a nation, yet - but given the polarized politics they have been born into - what reason do you suppose they have to be proud of this country? If I was a young person I might be thinking about burning it to the ground, too - LoL!Interesting rant ,...."hate the millennials.......minds of their own ............." so much BS I wonder why gen . X er's are moving away from the constrictions of political correctness in the democratic party becoming independent and even Trump followers ?
No, no one I know hates younger generations , we actually hate what's been dropped on their heads from a young age by the systematic brainwashing in activist education system , we can spot a brainwashed person of ANY age from miles away , No , I feel sorry for the child who wasn't taught to think , to really think for themselves and are lost in the system of corruption , gang politics and often ostrasized by liberal nazism .
Pride of country ? Hatred of country isn't inherited Misfit , it is taught purely and simply , your systematic social re-engineering , your biased media and socialist education system , Example ; hatred of Trump by first graders , Please tell us where that comes from ?
For all of your parties supposed intellectualism , where does child indoctrination of their ideology play into decent child raising ? My parents for all their lack of education actually surpassed the norms of socialism in education by teaching their kids to think and decide life experiences FOR themselves .
Enjoy your group thought though , it kinda fits .ahorsback:
Here is how our kids are getting brainwashed by Trump.
https://youtu.be/jmTBsw5bImoThese kids minds are not developed enough, like Trump. Not to be racist.
What bothers you the most on the inside and can never speak of with your "friends " ?
Is that you know I'm right .:-) I must say, that is a brilliant 'one line zinger', made me chuckle.
Your bias is showing my friend. When 90% of media coverage of Trump is negative, what do expect the people, who are sheep - to do?
Is this a situation of the tail wagging the dog?
The accompishments of Trump is undeniable,
You might not like him or evrn hate him but the truth is the truth...When a person misrepresents and lies repeatedly it is quite difficult to give him credible coverage and especially when he is in such a high position of trust. I won't even start on his moral behaviour - good grief what an example to set. If a person wants respect he should earn it in the way he represents himself. Sorry folks but I see absolutely nothing worthy of respect or trust in this president.
I am dropping out of this conversation it is very obvious there is no middle ground to be had. Futile to expend energy. I will leave you with one thought. What if the president is exonerated by the Mueller investigation? Will you think it fair how he was found guilty by so many? Will you feel a bit of a fool for some of what you have thought and shared?
Sharlee: I won't feel a fool. I still won't like him. Trump is Trump and he is never going to change. I can ask you the same question, what if he is found guilty? Will you think it would be fair how Mueller found him guilty. Will you feel a bit of a fool for some of what you thought and shared? See it works both ways.
Sorry to see you leave, but it gets very tribal in these forums. Also because our values and belief systems are so different, conservatives and liberals seem to pose a threat to each other.
In order to find middle ground we have to be able to have empathy and put ourselves in the place of the other person. I don't think most people in these forums are able to do that.
Have a good life and see you around the campus.
- MikeI am just dropping out of this conversation, as I said I don't think it's worth the energy.
"Sharlee: I won't feel a fool. I still won't like him. Trump is Trump and he is never going to change. I can ask you the same question, what if he is found guilty? Will you think it would be fair how Mueller found him guilty. Will you feel a bit of a fool for some of what you thought and shared? See it works both ways."
Here's where we differ.. If Mueller proves The Presiden colluded with Russia or obstructed justice I will certainly change my opinion of him. Will I feel foolish for supporting his agenda, No not in the least? He is doing a good job and keeping campaign promises. Never have I witnessed a president that kept his word. And I agree our values and ideals are very different. I would never insult you by assuming mine my values or ideals are better than yours... This to me tells me a lot about, not about your values but about your need to be perceived by others as being superior. Like your answer to my question. In the end, you must be right there is no room for you to perceive yourself as being wrong, let alone for Gods sakes be perceived by others as being wrong.Sharlee: I don't want to feel superior, but like you I also don't want to be insulted. I found that for the most part whatever conservatives and Trump supporters say about liberals, all I have to do is replace their "name or "liberal" with "conservative" and what they say about me and liberals applies to them as well.
See I get the same feeling about you wanting to feel superior. This is what you wrote about me, but you know what, it applies to you as well.
"In the end, you must be right there is no room for you to perceive yourself as being wrong, let alone for Gods sakes be perceived by others as being wrong."
Didn't I tell you I was sorry for confusing TSAD's reply with yours? I was wrong and I'm not afraid to admit it. As it turns out we all have the same needs, just different sides of the same coin.
When you make statements, like I'm an investor, don't tell me about investments and many people do insider trading everyday. It tells me you are not only acting superior, but you are trying to minimize the importance of what Chris Collins did.
ahorseback got it wrong about lowering fuel standards creates less pollution. First I did the research to find out what Obama said, then I corrected him and then I describe how it all leads to global warming. So am I supposed to let that pass so everybody gets the wrong information? What would you do?
Like I said before, see you around the campus."When you make statements, like I'm an investor, don't tell me about investments and many people do insider trading everyday. It tells me you are not only acting superior, but you are trying to minimize the importance of what Chris Collins did."
In the same comment I or one shortly after, I stated I would not discuss the market due to its complexity. However, I do have invested in the market for many years, and have gone it alone. I am not acting superior, I am stating a fact. Insider trading is a real problem and goes on frequently. In the comment you are referring to I also said it well appears Collins did commit insider trading. I also pointed out the scandal should not be made political, and that the Pelosi's also most certainly committed insider trading. I in mean minimized Collin's insider trading.
Your post to me that drew me into GA's conversation... "I don't just regurgitate my thoughts. I try to present facts, like Chris Collins. That was straight from the New York Attorney's presentation, including the FBI and the SEC with charts from the presentation. If you don't believe it. That is your problem. They even brought up the fact that Collins was one of Trump's first supporters, not my idea or thought."
My response --- I have not been following your posts on Collin's. It certainly appeared he did commit insider trading. As did Pelosi and her husband. Not sure we had to make it political? Insider trading goes on daily, very easy to spot as a rule, but very hard to prove. Your charts show good proof of insider trading in regard to Collin's. Pelosi beat it, Collin's may too... If he committed insider trading, he should incur punishment for breaking the law.
You totally twisted the conversation. I was not in anyway acting superior. If I make a claim to have a bit of expertise on a given subject, I do... Otherwise, I would not say it and wear egg on my face. You do realize others can read your posts, and make their own decisions on the meaning of what is said? I think in this incident I have well proved I was not attempting to project superiority.Sharlee: Welcome back. I realize others read my posts. This forum that I started is like a combat zone, where each side is viewed as the enemy.
For example, ahorseback and I have been debating each other for a long time on many other forums. He hates liberals with a visceral passion and blames them for everything that he sees wrong with the world. I don't like most conservative values that he presents. But I believe we have a strange kind of respect for each other.
I really respect your idea about finding middle ground. I think it is a wonderful idea. I was thinking about how that could happen in forum such as this. It would be pretty difficult without a moderator who could serve as a referee of sorts.
I know people look at the same situation as the glass half full or half empty. I learned in therapy, yes and I'm not afraid to admit it, if you re-frame your thoughts and look at a situation from the positive side it will make you feel better. That is to say in almost every situation, no matter how negative things appear, you can always find something positive and it will make you feel a whole lot better.
As I said before, I think it takes empathy on both sides. And I think it would take a format where a question is posed and both sides then reply to the question and then try to work out a middle ground position. But it would require agreement to seeking the goal of middle ground before hand.
I watched Van Jones' show last night on CNN. Yes it was CNN. He went to Atlanta in his van and picked up two Trump supporters and two non- supporters one of which was black.
He took them to Stone Mountain and it was interesting to see their different emotions based on how they felt about that monument being torn down.
The white man saw the monument as a very important part of his background and history and did not want it destroyed. The black lady saw the monument as a threat and became very emotional and started crying. The other white lady saw it as an enduring part of her history.
But because of being in a van, they were in a intimate enclosed environment and they were able to sooth each others feelings as they understood what the monument to the other person. In other words, they found the middle ground, like you are seeking.
I would like to hear your ideas on how we can find middle ground. I think the concept is great and has merit.Diane: I thought it was very moving and profound. It's better than being in studio and doing the same thing. I don't know if you ever watch James Corden when he does Carpool Karaoke? But it is very similar, except they are singing.
The important think is that people listen to each other. Most of us are so busy trying to be heard that we have no room to hear. Today I watched a wedding where a Black man gave away the bride to his friend who is in KKK. The KKK guy shot a gun at the Charlottesville thingy and got arrested. The Black guy helped him pay his bail.
Everyone wants to be validated. We should all respect that. Reacted to someone who is disrespectful starts a chain reaction. We've all been hurt. There is no such thing as even. Whataboutism stabs even in the heart.
Yes, the thread has become a combat zone, and the war is not going to be won by tossing insults at one another. In my opinion, the country is experiencing a serious divide. I think people on both sides may feel their values. morals and individual beliefs are threatened, and well worth "warring over". To me, it seems factual that media is fueling this fight. Some here quote media as if it is infallible. When the media, as a rule, is reporting without names or faces, and some of what they report may be interesting, but turns out not to be truthful. The problem is once the cat is out of the bag, it is hard to return it to that bag.
I have so tried to rely on facts and stay clear all the conspiracies, the "if comes". This is very hard to do, hard to look away from the actual documentation, and Senate hearings that do bear factual fruit that gives credence to some wrongdoing. Where am I going with this? When I come up against someone that will not be open even a bit too what to me is clear, factual. It feels threatening to my way of life, the way I have led my life respecting common sense "out of someone's mouth facts". No changing the context to suit a point of view. My conservative values seem threatened. As I am sure across the divide the liberals feel very threatened. It seems it ould be very hard to mesh beliefs that are so far apart.
However, we could all try to be civil, understanding of one another's ideologies. As if we were in a van, and looking into one another eyes, pick on on one's feelings, fears, hopes, and passions. I have many liberal friends, we may not agree on politics, but we all agree Trump will be gone at some point. We may not like one another's political views, but we like each other as human beings.
It certainly would be nice to be able to share our views without being pummeled. We may be not able to look into one another eyes, but we can consider each other feelings, and rights to have an opinion. This might be a good place to start?
Ladymermaid: Thanks for your comments and welcome to this forum.
This is so true and very well stated. I saw the media try to give him a chance, but when anyone in the media stated anything he did not like he went on the attack. That creates enemies.
I really think he prefers them attacking him. Disparaging the media is his number one campaign issue.Attacking the media is what dictators do when the media says something the despot doesn't like. Sound familiar?
Yep. And we have this:
"He said, 'You know why I do it? I do it to discredit you all and demean you all so when you write negative stories about me, no one will believe you.' He said that," Stahl told the audience, adding, "So, put that in your head for a minute."
Every President has an issue with the press because there's always going to be unfavorable coverage. However, systematic efforts to discredit the media is dictatorship 101. There is no truth beyond what I tell you. Humans never learn.
Did you feel the same way about Bill Clinton when he was impeached?
The real answer for all of you here is stop watching the news media...
If we all know the media is biased, and they are untrustworthy, and they have an agenda...why watch them at all.
I watch Fox Business Channel mostly to get the latest information that will help my pocketbook...
I learn about what is coming down the road in business...technology...investing...and news that matters like the federal reserve raising interest rate, and companies like google hiding the fact they were hacked and compromised many users personal data...and how AI is making strides in helping people work smarter and not replacing their jobs as some feared...and how Ken Langone has donated 100 million to NYU medical school so all students will be able to attend tuition free going forward...wow that is great generosity.
Enjoy your group thought though , it kinda fits .
Ahorseback's assessment of the Democratic Party - not being able to see the whole picture - is 100% accurate. Even though I disagree with his politics, that assessment of Democratic leadership is right on the money.
Interesting that your example demonstrates that the Media appears to be the source of so much division, not everyday Americans. The battle for the hearts, minds, and viewership/ratings is being waged at a level far higher than the regular Judy or Joe.
RJ: That's very interesting. Can you give examples of the "higher level" ?
The word "media" covers a wide spectrum. Most newspapers and major networks follow journalism standards in their news coverage.
Cable news networks, political blogs and social media sites do not.
Newspapers express their political opinions on the editorial pages.
My metro daily newspaper, like others I know, have endorsed a Republican almost every election for more than 100 years. But they try avoid bias in their news sections.
Excellent point. However, it seems the media reflects the extremists who get all the attention from every side because they are just more entertaining. Despite not all of us being so extreme, that's the fault of Americans as many, from the right and left, don't want to hear or read anything that we think may begin to be against our views. Thus, we are stuck in echo chambers that increase the volume of hate and misunderstanding.
While I lean toward the left side of the spectrum, I have some views that are more in line with Republicans. At the same time, not every issue is straight-forward, so some views have caveats and nuances.
While facts are facts, there are also many subtle differences on opinions that don't draw the attention. Instead, we get partisanship and alternative facts. However, from where I sit, the reality is that most Americans are not so extreme but are drug into the spectacle.
We need leaders that can communicate the complexity of issues without going over the head of and/or creating disdain among Americans. And many people just need to take a chill pill. We have a great nation, but it's on the verge of being destroyed for no good reason but entertainment.
Now we have a reality TV show host as a president. That reflects upon us as a nation as does our media. If we blame the media, we must blame ourselves.I think competition for ratings causes them to go with the extreme stories. Middle of the road is probably not so interesting.
I have watched more cable news in the last year than I have watched news all of my life. I'm anxious when I watch because the stuff is so extreme. I think I keep hoping a resolution will come but it seems never ending drama. It's a continuous reality show.Agreed diane, it's a continuous reality show, and your increased viewing is an example of how hard it is for so many not to watch. I've been a news junkie since I was a child, and it's been all downhill lately.
Unfortunately, it's kinda like rubber necking when passing a bad traffic accident. It seems America voted to ensure the most ridiculous reality show antics continue with Trump. While our problems with division of all sorts are wide and deep, he serves to amplify them and make a mockery of our nation at the same time. He counts on the media's alternate realities to help stir the pot of confusion and division. At least that's my take.I must say, I watched the whole Trump/Putin meeting and was appalled by what I saw and heard from Trump. After the meeting, I immediately switched to Fox News. Much to my surprise, they were calling out Trump for not calling out Putin for the 12 indictments. I watched it for hours from one show to another and they were all consistent in their disappointment in Trump's response to Putin.
Now tonight with Sean Hannity will be another story. If it's not, I will eat my hat.Off topic, but curious - have you ever watched or listened to Trump and not been appalled?
I dont remember being appalled at his inaugural speech
Are you appalled today?He's uncultured and rough around the edges like a lot of born and bred New Yorkers, sometimes I'd say he's even crass. But man, he's a good prez! GO DONALD!
Interesting. I watched most of the press conference on CNN. Then I went to Fox news online and the headline wasn't exactly flattering for Trump. I didn't actually watch any Fox News, or go beyond the Fox headline though, so didn't get a good feel for it. I understand that Shepard Smith hasn't shied away from criticizing Trump. Maybe there are some things too far out there for mainstream Fox to support when it comes to Trump? As you state though, I'd be REALLY surprised if Hannity provides anything but an alternate reality and excuses .
I do want to point out that I agree that MSNBC and CNN take things way too far also. They contribute to the overly PC atmosphere that helped create the misguided Trump crowd. The confusion is understandable, but the continued support of Trump is not IMO.I think Trump is between a rock and a hard spot. He is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If he accepts that the Russians interfered with the election, then he puts his legitimacy as president in jeopardy. If he sides with Putin, instead of his intelligence community then people will see him as a Putin sympathizer and a president that does not believe his own country.
I think both sides are coming together because, they see Putin as a threat to our country. Trump doesn't want to see that because he wants to make nice to Putin.I see your point and hope both sides are coming together. However, I think if Trump had any kind of tact, he could have accepted that Russia meddled without making his presidency look illegitimate. Trey Gowdy said just that. And, after all, most Republican Congressmembers have been walking this line the entire time.
Screaming witch hunt only serves to make his presidency less legitimate AND show him as the Putin sympathizer he is. And remember, Trump's affection for Putin started during the election not after the Mueller investigation.Consider the situation he is in (summarized in facts as best we know them):
1) Hillary destroys her phones, server, and all emails.
2) Hillary sells off 20% of America's Uranium to Russia.
3) Hillary subverts the DNC Primaries and steals election from Bernie
4) Abundant evidence Strzok had bias against Trump
5) Abundant evidence Rosenstein and Mueller have worked closely (colluded) with Hillary on a variety of suspect issues.
And I am sure there are other issues I have forgotten at the moment, yet nothing has happened to any of these people, no one has held them accountable, and in fact, two of them are leading the investigations into Collusion and interference.
Lets remember, Trump ran on a campaign of 'Draining the Swamp' he has waged war against the Media, and he is an outsider to D.C. politics.
THEY (D.C. insiders, MSM, corrupt politicians in Congress) consider him the enemy, and do everything they can to make him look bad, and thwart his every effort.
So why is it he should accept that Russia meddled? And when are we going to get around to defining this? By meddling do we mean hacking the DNC servers? Buying ads on facebook? Being phony posters on facebook? What does this 'election interference' really consist of?
And why is it Hillary and her cohorts in the Halls of D.C. are getting a pass for their corruption and criminal activities?
Now we have a reality TV show host as a president. That reflects upon us as a nation as does our media. If we blame the media, we must blame ourselves.
LOL Did you forget we had a TV actor, a cowboy, as a president as well?
There are always different variations of the same proverbial coin. There are those who praise Trump & view him as quintessentially presidential in the realm of Reagan. They contend that Trump is improving the American economy in ways that the precedent president hasn't done. They also aver that Trump is returning America to her core values.
There are those who contend that Trump is dividing the country more, especially politically & racially. They further purport that because of Trump, there is an increase in racialized incidents geared towards Blacks, Muslims, & Latinos. They maintain that Trump is also about to eradicate women's hard earned, fought for reproductive freedoms.A protest, of a couple thousand people, in a city the size of London is nothing more than a purely staged event, probably funded by some 'non-profit' organizations funded by Soros.
Yes, the bias over the past few of days has helped expose the seriousness of the mental instability and corruption within the MSM and Halls of D.C. … people who held the highest positions in the Obama Administrations coming out and calling for a COO, calling the President a Traitor, we aren't talking about some talking head on CNN, we are talking about people who had been in control of our Intelligence Agencies and Military forces... the statements made should scare anyone, regardless of political affiliation, because they are rants of either those who are guilty of great crimes, or those who are deranged.
We should also be VERY concerned about what direction the Democratic Party is going, with newly elected 'politicians' like NY's Alexandria Cortez and CA's De Leon, Americans better wake up, the Democrats now are the Party of the Socialist movement that will reinvent the U.S.S.R. right here in the U.S.A. if they get into power, Gulags and all.
As for how CNN and FOX and other MSM sites cover Trump, consider this clip, start it at 8:30 and see what is said, and then the remainder of clips shown. Indeed the MSM is biased and no longer presenting facts, just biased, and sometimes even false, versions of what has occurred: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPgxVtDBZRsKen: This is my comment to Readmikenow, but it applies to you as well.
It was Rosenstien who said the 12 high ranking Russian officers from the GRU who are being indicted for hacking into our computers to try influence the election by releasing and stealing documents of the DNC, not $30,000 to buy votes. They are a foreign actors hacking into our servers. It doesn't matter whether they changed the outcome of the election or not. They are our enemies.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/rea … terferenceI kept being dragged into church by pass Christians girlfriends. To listen often on how to love your enemies, meaning I don't belong to this church because I have no enemies. Just about all politicans and congress are Judaism/Christians, when do they ever use love for solutions?
I say Russia is going in a better direction than the US. Why not learn rather than fight everything they do. Trump is fake, they are threatening a third world war, more than ever since the cold war instead.No, our country has been the enemy of Russia, and we have pushed an agenda against Russia, for over a decade now, ever since Putin got that country back on track, and stabilized its economy.
All anyone has to do is look at the very obvious facts. For instance how many Russian ally nations has America meddled in and overthrown:
1) Ukraine
2) Syria
3) Libya
4) Iraq
How many nations that were American allies has Russia invaded or overthrown:
1)….
Second, lets consider the abilities of the CIA/NSA:
"More than 8,700 CIA documents were published as part of “Year Zero,” the first in a series of leaks WikiLeaks has dubbed “Vault 7.”
These “weaponized exploits” are used against “Apple’s iPhone, Google’s Android, Microsoft’s Windows and Samsung TVs.” Even the newer smart cars sporting Internet connectivity can be hacked and taken over by the government. The same goes for cameras, smart appliances or anything else hooked to the Internet.
Another clever hacking technique exposed by WikiLeaks is that of the CIA’s “UMBRAGE” group. These hackers use malware to steal and replicate the digital “fingerprints” of a foreign hacker, allowing the U.S. to then blame the hack on a foreign enemy such as RUSSIA."
So if our own Intelligence agencies can mimic attacks from foreign nations, then how can we know what they say about the attacks are true? How can we trust the evidence? They can make it look like who-ever they want, for whatever reason they want, we have to rely on their honesty and morality... and so... how can we trust those like Peter Strzok or John Brennan (who just accused Trump of Treason) who were running the intelligence agencies to do the honorable, truthful, decent thing?You make a very good point, but I would like to say that the Ukraine is not an ally nation of Russia. Russia has annexed Crimea and is fighting in a war with the Ukraine with separatists in the east. I can tell you, there are places in Ukraine if you speak Russian, you will be asked to leave. No, there is a lot of bad feelings between Ukraine and Russia. They are in a state of war with one another.
I need to correct you there, the Ukraine was an ally of Russia, until American interference overthrew their elected government in a Coo.
When the Ukrainian president was replaced by a US-selected administration, in an entirely unconstitutional takeover, politicians such as William Hague and John Kerry brazenly misled the world about the legality of what had taken place: the imposition of a pro-western government on Russia's neighbor, literally a stone's throw from Moscow.
The Ukrainian protests that spread from Crimea to eastern Ukraine evidently had mass support. But what had been a glorious cry for freedom in Kiev, turned violent as the inserted-new-regime attempted to crush all opposition, those who fought against this overthrow were eventually supported by Russia, and this support became an 'invasion by Russia' according to EU and American news sources.
After Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to join Russia, the bulk of the western media abandoned any hint of even-handed coverage. So Putin is now routinely compared to Hitler.
I ask that you do more research on the matter, you will most likely find, evidence and more details about that which I stated (above).I don't agree with you. Since its freedom, Ukrainians wanted to move away from Russia and get closer to western Europe. After gaining its independence in 1991, Ukraine suffered with Soviet style corruption for years. The election Yanukovych was strongly influenced by Russia. The man did not even speak Ukrainian. During the election, he promised to sign an association agreement with the European Union. He refused. There is a long history of Russia controlling and undermining the Ukraine. The Ukrainian people were angry. The attitude was one of "we are tired of Russia and their underhanded treatment of us." THAT is what sparked the protests western journalists called the "euromaiden movement.". Also, Ukrainians prefer the spelling of their capital as "Kyiv." This is the Latin form of the word and is preferred over the Russian form of the word word "Kiev." You spoke of the Crimean vote. It was a joke. You should speak to people from Crimea. People would come in to vote, and a Russian soldier would mark off their name and tell them to go home without the opportunity to vote. Some sections of Crimea were told the Russians knew how they were going to vote so there was no need for them to show up. The referendum is not internationally recognized by most countries. When Ukraine elected their own president, Petro Poroshenko, the Russians invaded two months later. My research is reading Ukrainian newspapers and speaking with my friends and family in Ukraine. There is much you do not know and will not find in western media outlets. Ukraine is no ally of Russia. So far 10,000 Ukrainians have been killed and over 2 million displaced since the start of the war.
Very good, so you are well informed on the matter, then please add a couple links that could better inform me, and anyone else interested, on the matter.
I have to add however, that whether some, or even a majority supported a move away from Russia towards NATO... it could not have been all.
I know a large majority of people speak Russian and identify with Russia, I know the history of Ukraine has been entwined with Russia for hundreds of years.
I know America had no business supporting anti-Russian sentiment and opposition parties in Ukraine which is exactly what the CIA and State Department did (both Hillary Clinton and John Kerry).
And I know in terms of Russian interests of safety and security, allowing NATO to put missiles and forces in the Ukraine is more of a threat to Moscow than when Russia tried to put missiles in Cuba was to America.
There is a lot at play here, but the point remains, America stuck its nose into the business of every Russian ally, which Ukraine was, and has brought death and destruction in the name of 'freedom' from tyrants.
You may not agree to the validity of the government in Ukraine at that time, but Ukraine had peace, and now it does not. And the deaths there, and in Syria, and Libya, and Iraq, etc. could not have occurred without the deliberate interference of America.
Peoplepower, I agree. The Russians are not friends of the United States. I would like to point out Obama was responsible for the Russian attacks on the election of 2016. He and his people were in control. I wonder why he didn't do more.
What the F? First Trump wants to send Americans who have been on Putin's hit list to Russia for interrogation and now he wants to invite Putin to the White House.
Is he trying to desensitize the American people by giving Putin more exposure and making him look like a nice guy, so that we will back off of the investigations or what?
In three days Trump goes from there was no interference by the Russians to "Contraction Gate", to there was interference by them, to we are all crazy except him, because he calls himself "A stable genius." He wants to repaint and remodel Air Force 1 and have a parade about himself.
I can see them together in the parade, riding bareback on their horses and wearing no shirts (KGB style) while waving to cheering Trump supporters. God help us.Sounds good, and I'd take that over WWIII with a Nuclear opponent that we have worked two decades to back into a corner.
The stupidity of this 'Russian Collusion' charge is truly amazing, I realize the MSM is pushing the propaganda for its own purposes, but anyone that is buying this idiocy needs to get examined or get their meds checked.
Last time I checked, it was America invading every other country in the world, and using drones all over the world to kill people (and don't blame Trump for any of that, he hasn't opened up any new conflicts) interestingly enough, these conflicts and overthrows we are orchestrating happen to be against Russia allies, and leaders who favor Russia.
Oh wait... no wonder why our corrupt Congress and CIA, NSA, etc. are flipping their wigs over Trump trying to defuse hostilities with the Russians.
Don't worry, the further along this John F. Kennedy path Trump goes, negotiating peace not war, the more you can be certain his Presidency will end the same way.
For the same reason why Clinton accepted 400 mil, and helped them gain 20% of America's Uranium... on the one hand Russia was hiring ol'Bill at half-a-mil a pop to make speeches in Russia, and on the other hand, they were hacking Clinton & DNC servers to sabotage them???
Doesn't add up does it?
Apr 24, 2015 · Donations to the Clinton Foundation, and a Russian Uranium Takeover Uranium investors gave millions to the Clinton Foundation while Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton’s office was involved in approving a Russian bid for mining assets in Kazakhstan and the United States.
"As Secretary of State, Hilary transferred half of U.S. uranium to Russia and received $145 million donation to Clinton Foundation."
------
Vladimir Putin made a bombshell claim during Monday's joint press conference with President Trump in Helsinki, Finland, when the Russian President said some $400 million in illegally earned profits was funneled to the Clinton campaign by associates of American-born British financier Bill BrowderKen , are you pointing out truths to liberal deniers ?
There you go again .................Keep on it, Ken, it may get through to one of two of them if we're lucky. The "russian collusion" among dems apparently doesn't matter, and it's not even disputed! These are factual events, for all the world to see! Just amazing. It is sad that so many liberal minded people are also so very gullible.
Then how do you explain the way Trump cozies up with Putin? He obviously has some kind of blackmail on him. I didn't mean to be sarcastic. Why do you think Mueller has already sent out so many indictments and arrested a few? Russia will be found to have thrown the election. It's already been proven that Trump knew this before the election.
Jean, Barack Obama knew about Russia's attempts to influence the election, did you know that? He chose to do nothing about it. I would not say that Trump cozies up to Putin at all. Stating that it would be a positive thing to get along with the second largest nuclear power isn't cozying up, it's sensible. Trump has 1) expelled numerous Russian diplomats from the country 2) frozen valuable bank assets of the Russians 3) shipped defensive arms to Ukraine to defend against the Russians, something Obama refused to do 4) done a 180 turn on Obama's decision to abandon plans for military defense systems backed by Americans in Eastern Europe; purpose = to thwart Russian agression. I don't think that is cozying up! And as I said, most of the Mueller indictments (apart from Manafort) of Americans have zero to do with Russia. As for the Russians indicted, I personally have no dispute with the fact that they ATTEMPTED to influence the election, just as they've been doing here and around the world for half a century. The only thing they succeeded in doing is planting their silly propaganda on social media and obtaining emails that proved to be embarrassing to democrats. Let's face it, if the dems hadn't been doing things that were inappropriate and cheating, there would have been nothing in those emails to expose! As for the social media, if voters are stupid enough (thanks to our liberal-slanted education system) to believe what they read on social media without cross-checking then they deserve whatever they get. The Russians didn't manage to change the outcome of the 2016 election any more than any other election they've attempted to change in the US, which is dozens. (Obama, by the way, "meddled" in the Israeli election to try and prevent Netanyahu's election, did you know that?) Just because there have been indictments of Russians for election meddling doesn't mean they were successful! They weren't. And there's no evidence that Trump knew anything about what the Russians were up to in any specific sense. In fact, the reason for that is because the Obama intelligence agencies didn't WANT him to know because they intended to frame him for being involved if he ever got elected, so they purposely withheld what they knew! Trump got elected because there were not enough people who believed in Hillary's warped vision for the country and recognized her for the liar, cheater and corrupt politician that she is. And, there were enough voters who were ready to give a businessman a try rather than wade through the swamp with another seasoned politician. It's as simple as that. Besides, even IF the Russians influenced voters via their lame social media campaign and the release of stolen emails, the outcome would be the same! You can't make a case to negate an election based on what you believe was in voter's minds when they voted! As long as they voted legally, they could be completely wrong about both candidates in their minds and that doesn't negate their votes! So the election was valid and Trump is our president and the liberals better get over it quick or they're going to lose the mid-terms because most people in America see how pathetic and foolish they look in all their protestations!
Sparrowlet
Trump is the one who brings up the issue of broad voter fraud in every one of his rallies and negates the election himself.. Yes, Obama did know the Russians interfered with our election process. The logical thing to do is to get tech people working on this issue so we can be sure we don't have any voter fraud issues. Of course, R's do all they can to block non white votes.They ran huge ads telling Black and Latino voters to vote by text, (which can't be done) make the hours the polls are open impossible to get to, and force people to wait on lines for hours in places where many don't have transportation to get to polls.It would be easy to just make Election Day a National Holiday and let all college campuses be voting places.
Trump should never be allowed to be in a room alone with Putin, because no President does this.There should be cabinet members and others there to witness what is said. This is history in the making. Most of his cabinet members are discouraging this new Putin summit in the Fall.
Kim Jong Un is already mocking Trump and saying he never made a nuclear arms deal with Trump at that summit. Trump is making a complete fool of not only himself (he does that daily) but he's making a mockery of our country but not respecting our government agencies and always belittling them. It's country first, not Trump first. He never understood this and thinks all these agencies work for him, like the Mob.
And normally one and half years into a Presidency, people stop blaming running mates and past Presidents. I understand R's never got over a black man winning two terms for President, but some of us live in diversified states where we actually have friends and neighbors of color. Trump is a proven White Supremacist, as I mentioned in this thread somewhere where I explained he and his father would not rent or sell real estate to people of color. I know people who he refused, as I said I live close to where he used to operate Trump Tower, until he couldn't pay the bills and the name was taken off.The entire brilliance of the American left in year one , or in year eight of Trump's presidency ,.........
Democrats have the answer .
ahorseback: Congratulations, by posting that sign and all of your comments, you have just projected how you really feel about liberals.
Jean - I'll begin where I agree with you.... we definitely need to work on improving systems to prevent voter fraud! Not that voter fraud had anything to do with what the Russians are accused of, but it's an issue that absolutely needs to be addressed, and as soon as possible.
No, conservatives don't want to prevent people of color from voting. (Did you know that the # of blacks who identify as conservative has been steadily rising over the past decade?) What conservatives want is for people who are not citizens not to be able to vote. Which is why your point about voter fraud is so important. We need systems monitored carefully and voter ID required in all 50 states to insure that only citizens are voting.
I don't know what you are talking about when you say "no president does this" with regard to meeting a foreign leader without an entourage. In fact, almost every president in the modern age has done so. Roosevelt with Churchill, Kennedy with Krushchev (although he later admitted aides because he was getting skewered), Nixon with Leonid Brezhnev, and several Israeli Prime Ministers met in private with only interpreters with U.S. Presidents during the 70's and 80's. No, it's not the most common form of meeting, but unheard of it is not.
As for Kim, Trump has been saying all along, and over and over that it may or may not work out. He's made it crystal clear that we will not take what Kim says at face value, that his meeting is one small step in the right direction, but my no means any breakthrough in terms of nuclear disarmament. You may detest Trump, but he is not stupid. He doesn't, nor will he, simply smile and nod and believe what Kim says. What he's done is to begin what will be a long process of two steps forward, one step back toward progress. At least Trump has the courage to attempt to deal with this dangerous threat to the U.S. which Obama only left to fester, doing absolutely nothing to decrease the danger of that regime during his presidency.
Trump is not a "proven White Supremacist" at all. He isn't racist in the least, in fact. The real estate accusations were not proved, nor were the Trumps ever fined or found guilty in any way with regard to any racist practices. In fact, even the liberal media reports on that investigation admit that the vast majority of those interviewed said that they never saw ANY indication of racism working in the Trump real estate organizations. There were two reports mentioned (and only two) who claimed otherwise. One was from an associate who was later fired by the Trumps on an unrelated matter and had a major ax to grind, so I wouldn't put a lot of stock into that report. The other was from a doorman.... really? a doorman? Even if the doorman was telling the truth, his instructions to discriminate against blacks didn't come from the Trumps, it came from the property manager. Trump does admit that they didn't want to rent to people on welfare, which the manager could well have interpreted himself to indicate no blacks. In any case, both of those reports are sketchy and certainly were not enough for any indictment to be filed on the Trumps.
And, just as an aside, racial discrimination was quite the norm at that time. Civil rights laws for renting and selling properties had only recently been strengthened, and most realtors were used to being able to rent to whomever they felt like renting to. So it would be understandable if underlings of the Trumps did so as a matter of course, without the knowledge or instruction of the Trumps.
I find it funny that nobody who has known Trump on a personal level for years and years has named him as a racist or related any stories of him speaking or acting in a racist manner. He never said or did anything racially biased in all the dozens and dozens of interviews and TV appearances he made over the years, in connection to his TV show, or anywhere else prior to his candidacy for president. In fact, many people who have known Trump for decades, even liberals (he used to be a democrat), swear that the man hasn't a racist bone in his body. Funny how all of a sudden when he announces as candidate for president he becomes this horrible bigot.
And speaking of racism in general, which you seem to imply that Republicans are, what would you say to my assertion that liberals and democrats (speaking generally, not specific individuals now) are the most racist group of people in this country? It's easily demonstrated that liberals have been and continue to use people of color to their electoral advantage. They're scared to death that they might fight their way out of the poverty the liberals have designed for them and become independent of government and therefore not obliged to vote democrat. Why do you think the liberals want to fill the country with unskilled, uneducated Latinos? Because they love Latinos? Hardly. They plan to use them, as they've used blacks since they got the vote, to keep them in poverty, keep handing them stuff so they can vote the dems in, again and again. Don't believe me? If illegal immigrants suddenly all decided to vote (and yes, they do vote) Republican, do you suppose the liberals would still be welcoming them in droves to the country? Of course not. The liberals care about power, not people, and they use race in the most despicable ways to achieve and hold on to it.
Not to even mention how they use it to insult others when they run out of other ideas, which in itself is racist. So please don't try to portray conservatives as racists, when the left have been using, abusing and ruining the lives of people of color for decades in pursuit of votes. Race is all the left can think about. It's the lens they see everything and everyone through. Conservatives/Republicans choose to focus on the quality and potential of each individual, regardless of race. The myth that liberals are all-accepting, all-inclusive lovers of humanity and conservatives are evil racists is absurd, since the opposite is closer to the truth.
And now, time to move on to a new thread. You and I will never agree, and while I respect your right to your opinions, I believe you to be very misguided and wrong. I thank you for not backing down and for engaging in a civil discourse. I wish more liberals were willing and able to do the same, then we might actually get somewhere.Rs don't respect people of color, they support white police who kill them for little or no reason. What about the 11 yr. old boy playing with a water pistol who was killed by a cop who "feared for his life?" Who needs cowards like that protecting us? These people are never even indicted.
Women, people of color, and LGBTQ people are marginalized in this country, mostly in states with little diversity or not near larger cities.
If you watched a Trump rally and didn't think he and the rabid, angry people attending weren't racist, there is something clearly wrong.. White, upper class women were spitting on the press.
We won't ever agree, but thanks for the civility."War and Peace" had a more brief narrative, but I too appreciate your candor and civility. Obviously, you have strong views about this. But as a Black American, of course, I have as well. I am in a position to speak on this as one who has to actually live within circumstances from what could only be your observation the current regime. All the same, I strongly disagree with your position.
I recommend this woman's videos. She is bright, insightful and articulate and makes a lot of excellent points. Worth thinking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILQXW2Ob1PUThanks, but this is not helpful, it is the excuse that I have always hear from conservatives. The rebuttal from Conservatives need to be more sophisticated than this. I have heard this before and it is in error. If you are really interested in our true perspective and why........
"Why do blacks vote Democrat", an article specifically designed to counter well worn talking points from the Right on this topic. This may provide something more substantive than just a pop diva's testament.ahroseback: Yea, Malcolm X was assassinated by his own people in 1965.
When LBJ was president, the Southern DixieCrats were still part of the democratic party. That is why Malcolm X said that about the democratic party.
After LBJ passed the civil rights act in 1964, they jumped ship and became the base of the Southern Republican Party. Their legacy still lives on today in the form of the Republican House Freedom Caucus, run by Jim Jordan and his cohorts.
Is that sophisticated enough for you? See, you shouldn't accept your propaganda at face value, you have to do your research.Peoplepower , Sophisticated answers always intrigue me , especially when a party lies through it's teeth ,
Kennedy , Johnson , southern dixiecrats , northern democrats , X spoke to all of them didn't he and what they were doing to the black culture ? ..............and What have they done or more importantly what are they DOING for the black culture in America ?
I guess that's TOO sophisticated a question ?
Excellent answer, Peoplepower, I don't need to address this Horse, you have already done it!!
Readmikenow, he didn't do anything because he believed Hillary was winning and he didn't want to rock the boat! If he'd thought Trump was going to win, you better believe he would have been jumping up and down about Russian meddling.
CNN? are they still on the air? Last I heard their rating were lower than the food channel
Lets put 'News' aside, do you see your neighborhood better or worse off recently, now that Trump has been around a while and his actions are starting to have an impact on America?
Are you personally worse off, or better, or about the same?
Worse. The main company I work for outsourced an entire department to the Phillipinnes and I'm getting fewer hours.
What do you see going on... do more people you know have better jobs, or more unemployment? Are things getting tougher?
Things going about the same here. Many low paying jobs.
Have any new wars started?
Probably, just not with the US involved; unless you want to call it a war on the press since they are "the enemy of the people." I am glad we haven't invaded Iran our some such yet though.Where you lack validity Is in that you are blaming Trump a whole one and a half years into his presidency ! Fact . Want to find the blame for outsourcing , blame the previous president , That It's just common sense to look at how scared and under-confident corporate America became under the Obama guise of democratic -demolition -socialism and it's perpetual over taxation .
This is where you flare up your anger guise in response. Because in your mind you KNOW what I'm saying is the truth !
You're welcome.Did I blame Trump for all of this? No. I answered the fair question. Just because I think he's a bad leader and a disgusting person doesn't mean I blame him for everything. My anger guise? Once again, I looked up "something else" and in the dictionary and it said "see ahorseback on Hubpages."
You're welcome.At least I make you think ........well , some of you .
Really? I answers Ken Burgess's question. So, if anyone made me think...wow, something else.
I'm not looking for credit Hard sun , I 'm merely instigating independent , individual thought , many don't like that about me.
Thanks for the info Mr. Ed. Now go back to listening to Trump to find your individual thought. What you see is what he sees, what you hear is what he hears. Fox news said he is the guy to listen to. That's Jim Jones stuff you have going on there and then you project it onto others with rambling nonsense.
No, That's the diff between Jim Jones socialism and Donald Trump liberty , Trump's listening to his people and acting it out in policy , Jim Jone's said to his people .............."Here drink this " and they did .....
You know I'm right .I know you're wrong. You don't even make any damn sense. Trump tells his people he can shoot someone in Times Square, and they won't care And they would not. You would find a way to justify it no mater what. He tells his people to listen to him and no one else. You see, they are all liars, but I'm you're man. That's the definition of a cult. You're a cult follower and need deprogrammed. That's fine with me, but you dribble your cult nonsense here and I'm gonna call you on it.
I know you are but what am I. Ok Pee Wee...I dare you not to reply. I bet you can't do it can you?Trumps "people" and my people are two different things, that is why there is so much angst in these times.
ahorseback: You said this:
"I'm not looking for credit Hard sun , I 'm merely instigating independent , individual thought , many don't like that about me."
"No, That's the diff between Jim Jones socialism and Donald Trump liberty , Trump's listening to his people and acting it out in policy , Jim Jone's said to his people .............."Here drink this " and they did .....
You know I'm right ".
How can you be instigating independent individual thought when you keep saying," You know I'm right." ? You are trying to force the issue in your favor. That is not individual thought.
Cmon, Horse, level with us, are you not just taking on the role of a rightwing sockpuppet?
We can all be a little myopic when we make assessments from our personal positions. When we only speak to people that agree with us, we become entrenched in our cognitive dissonance.
I think you have hit the nail on the head. There are two separate realities, On one hand, you have those that voted for and support president Trump, and were elated when he won. Then you have the people that voted for Hillary Clinton and was very sure she would win. This opinion was reinforced nightly by the majority of the media.
In my opinion, the divide started the very night Trump came down that golden escalator. The night he won the divide was severed, broke in two... One side elated, the other infuriated. No one like to lose, but to lose to someone that many found totally unacceptable. A nonpolitician, a proven womanizer, a man that shot from the hip with a very little filter. A man that they found unpleasant to look at, and more... All these given perceived faults left many feeling either scared of what kind of President this man would be could he handle the job? Some just may have been truly mad at being let down, not able to accept the loss. Some had both feelings combined.
The Trump supports naturally were happy, and looked forward to the agenda Trump promised. The divided became deeper as president Trump kept promise after promise. However, it only deepened the divide between those that supported Hillary. The president continued to be Trump. he never promised to change, yet many thought he would. So this made their fears a reality. The media proceeded to endorse their fears, not even reporting much of what the president was accomplishing. The people that hated him without cause, their hate just grows daily. We on the right see his accomplishments and are pleased.
Then comes the what some call the "Deep State" with all the news of corruption, bias emails, a perception that the FISA court was lied to. the acuzations that the Obama administration" was knee deep in a conspiracy to make sure Hillary would win. This fueled the right.
The divide is most likely here to stay. You see it should be obvious many in the country were dissatisfied with the status quo, and not willing to watch it get any worse with poorly run Government. The country needs to move forward, fixing problems that have been growing for many years. If I had to predict, I would say the divide will remain for many years to come.Sharlee01: I'm going to try to keep this simple. I could care less at this point whether Hillary won or lost. Every morning I wake up, I would like to have some degree of certainty in my life. With Trump as president I don't have that certainty. I don't know what he is going to do or say from one day to the next. He lies so much and reverses his accusations and threats of other world leaders, it's a roller coaster ride. At one point he creates the problem and then he backs off and solves the problem he just created. We are back at square one and his supporters could care less that he created and solved his own problem. Tariffs, Zero Tolerance, NK negotiations, Iran, are all examples of his roller coaster ride policies
He uses twitter to both criticize people and to make official policy. It is all a blur. He calls the news fake and the journalist the enemy of the people, except for fox news and their cohorts.
He plays both the hero and the victim. He says don't believe what you see and hear only believe me. As the hero, only he can fix things. As the victim he says people are attacking him and he has to counter-punch. He is the one who brings up "there is no collusion" constantly. Then he goes on fox news and to his rallies and says that he is being victimized by the enemy of the people.
His press secretary lies as much as he does. Trump supporters are put in a position where they don't care about what he has done or what he does or says, because they see him fulfilling his campaign promises whether good or bad for the country, it doesn't matter to them because he is the hero and will fight the big bad news media.
The irony is Trump loves the big bad news media because he loves being in the spot light. I believe his game plan is to saturate the people with all the information and miss-information to the point they don't even care any more and then he wants to take over the news. This is very dangerous for this country and smacks of what happens in third world countries.
For as long as I can remember, I have never been this uncertain in my life about my government, whether with good presidents or bad ones. That's why I don't like Trump, not because Hillary lost the election.Wow , who is this guy ? Peoplepower , you don't think that conservatives felt the same way with Obama weekly ripping the constitution to shreds ? With Jarret , Holder and the Manuals playing kick ball with the SCOTUS , Adopting a system of ideological corruption within the halls of Justice , in the FBI , The IRS , The Dept. Of Interior ?
Maybe it's time for a collective anxiety pill for the party Peoplepower ? You're going through nothing that we all didn't go through with Obama kowtowing to the leaders of the middle east , dropping the curtains of the Muslim Brotherhood over everybody's eyes , infiltrating known world terrorists into the government offices , inviting the BIll Ayers over for dinner at the white house .ahorseback:
a: Wow , who is this guy ? Peoplepower , you don't think that conservatives felt the same way with Obama weekly ripping the constitution to shreds ?
M: Don't you think ripping the constitution to threads is a bit of an exaggeration?
a; With Jarret , Holder and the Manuals playing kick ball with the SCOTUS
M; Kick ball with SCOTUS doesn't even mean anything without more of an explanation,
a: Adopting a system of ideological corruption within the halls of Justice , in the FBI , The IRS , The Dept. Of Interior ?
M: You put a question mark at the end of that sentence.
a:Maybe it's time for a collective anxiety pill for the party Peoplepower ?
M: How could you live with Obama for 8 years, it must have been hell?
a; You're going through nothing that we all didn't go through with Obama kowtowing to the leaders of the middle east
M: He bowed once to the Egyptian president and Fox made a big deal out of it. Trump kowtowed to Kim and Putin
a: dropping the curtains of the Muslim Brotherhood over everybody's eyes
M: What does that even mean? You are speaking in your poetic terms
a: infiltrating known world terrorists into the government offices ,
M: What terrorist did he put into office?
a: inviting the BIll Ayers over for dinner at the white house .
M: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/putting-on-ayers/
Let me get this straight. You are comparing Obama with Trump. Life must of been living hell for you for 8 years when you didn't have Obama tweeting nonsense everyday; calling the news the fake news and the journalist the enemy of the people; raising tariffs needlessly; separating 2,300 children from their parents; lying about his lies, counter-punching, and being threatened by an investigation that he claims he didn't have anything to do with it, but barks every day that there was no collusion.
For 8 years, you must have been going through withdrawal symptoms until Trump came along. I know one thing that is better now. I don't hear the NRA and gun people talking about protecting themselves from tyranny since Trump has become president..hum I wonder what that really means?"I don't hear the NRA and gun people talking about protecting themselves from tyranny since Trump has become president..hum I wonder what that really means?"
Perhaps that those people are trusting Trump to protect them from the tyranny of the far left?
"Trump kowtowed to Kim and Putin"
OMG! The rest of the world cried and screamed that he should not talk so tough, and you're complaining that he "kowtowed"! Is there no end to the spin against the man?
Well, I appreciate your reply. It is very clear I am on to something. Your first statement tells me you are in the category that is very scared that President Trump can do the job, and will ruin the country. You are certainly not one that just hates Trump due to his win. Your original subject was the great divide. Your reply sort of proves my point, the divide is here to stay for a very long time. Trump will eventually be gone, but the people that voted him in will most likely never return to the status quo. Especially if he continues to fix problems. I can only speak for myself. Trump hit a real nerve not only with his very progressive agenda, but he makes it all look so simple. Makes me sit back and wonder...
Sharlee01: You have it exactly wrong. I'm not very scared that he can do the job. I'm very scared that he can't do the job. The second part of your sentence is very true. I'm very scared that he is ruining our country.
What problems has he fixed? He is trying to fix problems. But how many has he fixed, in past tense? In truth, we don't know what the outcome is going to be.
He hasn't built the wall. Mexico won't pay for it because they say it is not their problem. He wants to shutdown the government to get the money. He has hundreds of children still separated from their parents. We don't know the outcome of his tariffs program. He has upset European foreign policies. Kim is still building missiles. Syrian rebels are still being bombed and gassed by Al Assad and Putin. We still have troops in the mid-east. He threatens Iran and then backs off. He has created a huge divide between Israel and the Palestinians that may never be repaired.
The only things that he thinks he fixed are unemployment and the stock market, which both he inherited from Obama. But he wants to take credit for them. He lowered taxes for the super wealthy and corporations and increased the national debt by 1.7 trillion dollars over a ten year period. He deregulated the laws that were in place to protect us and prevent another financial meltdown like in 2008.
You say he makes it look simple. I say he is a drama queen who gets into trouble every time he tweets and opens his mouth because he lies so much. As I told Wilderness, you look at the glass and see it half full. I look at it and see if half empty. Therein lies the divide. It is a matter of how our filters work."Sharlee01: You have it exactly wrong. I'm not very scared that he can do the job. I'm very scared that he can't do the job. The second part of your sentence is very true. I'm very scared that he is ruining our country. "
Maybe a little bit of both?
"What problems has he fixed? He is trying to fix problems. But how many has he fixed, in past tense? In truth, we don't know what the outcome is going to be.
I agree the major big problems are being worked on. I pointed that out in my comment. I appreciated a president that works on problems, personally.
In regards to the wall. I totally wholeheartedly believe we need a secure wall at our border. The wall is being worked on, but the money certainly falls short to complete it. I want borders that people come in legally. By merit and employment needs. The trade practices need to be negotiated they are very unfair. In regards to NK, time will tell.
" Syrian rebels are still being bombed and gassed by Al Assad and Putin.". It appears some do not want Trump to not even meet with Putin? Make an enemy out of him by simply embarrassing him on the world stage. Now that works... LOL The president has stated several times in interviews, he wants t to be able to open conversation with people like Putin, Kim, and others. I guess he could have admonished Putin with some harsh words to please some citizens, meaningless threats that in the end leave us looking foolish. I hope to think he admonished him behind closed doors and earned a bit of appreciation from Putin, maybe Putin realizes Trump is a bit different than others before him? In my opinion, words mean little unless you can back them up.
In regard to economy, I follow the economy very closely as well as the stock market. I will not discuss such a complicated subject on an internet thread. I personally invest and have been investing for many years. The Obama market was very volatile, with long flat periods, and periods of severe swings. Yes, he did improve the market from the end of the Bush tenure. However, it was a very scary market. In regards to the economy, please do some research on the stats. The stats are proof of Obama's economy.
I have benefited from the tax reform bill. I appreciate the fact that he has given big business an invite to do business right here in the USA. We all will have to wait to see the outcome of the tax reform. So far I like what I see. In regard to national debt, another wait and see. I don't think anyone could beat Obama in this respect. And he has little to show for his expenditures.
Lies, much of what the media is listing as lies is a word or two taken out of context. He certainly does embellish while trying to get a point across.
Half full, half empty... This is your opinion. So, far I am very pleased with Trump's job performance. Not sure if you will realize many that voted for Trump are mostly pleased with him? My cup runneth over...
Totally agree. The media is largely responsible for the political divide. But really, we are divided on many issues. The media just project it and exaggerate it and help propagate it.
On the issue of immigration, abortion and healthcare and welfare...
We are divided. Some of us want a smaller government and less intrusive on our liberties while others want a socialist style government where the government is the answer to all our needs.What do you think will happen to the divide as the Manfort trial proceeds? Prosecutors are methodically working through the corruption to show Russian involvement with at least one of the foreign accounts. The Russian is one that was indicted this summer.
I wish the trial were live.Well, this is what HAS occurred since this investigation began:
FBI Agent Peter Strzok has been reassigned to the HR department.
And we know all about his bias, and criminal activities.
FBI Lawyer Lisa Page, personal legal aide to FBI Asst. Director Andrew “Andy” McCabe, returned to the DOJ side and eventually resigned and is currently under continued investigation.
FBI Chief Legal Counsel James Baker was relieved of his duties by FBI Director Christopher Wray.
FBI Asst Director Andrew McCabe last I heard was 'on leave' until his retirement.
Deputy AG Rod Rosenstein is feeling so much heat for his involvement in all this corruption he threatened to retaliate against Rep. Devin Nunes. He will likely be called back in for another round of questions.
Its kind of funny, the 'Left' side thinks there is this great investigation ongoing into Trump, which is totally understandable as CNN and MSNBC have been saying for 17 months that he is guilty, that he will be removed from office, etc. etc.
While those of us in the middle, and those on the right, are watching as slowly, one after another, the real conspirators are being taken down, and removed from the Halls of D.C. stripped of their power and title.
Those criminals that remain in Congress and D.C. are clinging to the hope that the 2018 elections will sweep in enough Democrats so that they can impeach Trump before they are all exposed and thrown out.Ken, you mean so far nothing, absolutely nothing criminal on Trump has come out, so far?
Then why are so many on the left calling for impeachment and naming him a traitor? You must have missed something!Because of Trump Derangement Syndrome , pretty simple .
I guess that is really the only explanation, isn’t it. But how many more FBI agents and lawyers, and DOJ officials will they reveal of wrong doing before they will want to end the investigation? You’d think they’d have stopped before outing their own...especially since they know they have nothing on Trump
Well exactly , Leftists are at a point in their fantasia that they can't admit defeat and fall backwards defending their sordid past because it's too dirty , They can't admit defeat and move forwards because they have no leader and worse , No platform .
So they hold to their insanity like barnacles on the hull of a beached leaking , rusted ship , awaiting the next high tide and a passing barge .
What is it they say about insanity ?
Hopefully, we aren't divided on the serious financial impact of insider trading. Rep. Chris Collins, another swamp thing, has been removed.
Are you aware of Nacey Pelosi and her husband's insiders trading scandal?
Her husband and she have been knee deep a couple of times under suspicion of insider trading. In fact. A law passed in the wake of that controversy prohibits members of Congress from using nonpublic information for personal gain. Language in that measure was informally dubbed the “Pelosi Provision.”
Why make this mans crime political? Adds to the "great divide"... There are plenty of Swamp dwellers in Washington, Republican, and Democrat.
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/20 … ading.htmlI didn't mention party. Reading your last line, I assume you agree with me. When someone does wrong it should be called out. In this case, prosecuted. I assume if they find evidence, they will arrest HRC.
I do totally agree, anyone that breaks the law should be investigated and charged is wrongdoing is provable. Yes, trust if Horowitz finds HRC broke any laws he will report them in his findings. I am very sure he has seen all the documents and obtained all the information necessary to come to a conclusion if Hillary broke any laws. I for one hope his investigation ends the mystery for all.
if anything the past 2 years has shown, our justice system is not blind. All people are not treated equally. There is the average citizen and there are insiders of the power structure and there is a third class of illegal immigrants. It seems they are treated very differently by our justice system and our judges. Why?
Jack: After the financial meltdown, I watched 14 hours of congressional investigation of Goldman Sachs. It was about how they sold known toxic assets to their clients and used credit default swaps to insure that when those assets went down the tubes, Goldman would get their money back with a profit. All they did was slap their hands. And Goldman demanded claw back commissions from TARP money for it's people who sold those toxic assets to their own clients.
You and I could steal a loaf of bread and go to jail for it. White collar crimes of the highest order seem to be above the law, but you have to follow the money.The money...or the political power. The one buys an innocent verdict or a minor slap, the other buys burying of the entire thing.
Comey already as much as stated Hiliary is guilty of criminality with the investigation of her server. Read or watch the video clip of what he said, better yet start here https://youtu.be/QxbswOQWolc?t=335
According to the law everything he says is a violation of the law but he doesn’t recommend indictment because he found no intent? Thing is THE LAW (nor any court) does not require intent and that is a fact.TSAD: So you take two separate clips and marry them together to make them look like one is in conflict with the other and you call that proof? The give away is at the end where they are making Hillary look like she is having some kind of idiot spasm. It's clear, the intent of that presentation was to discredit her and make her look like she was lying.
By the way, Comey has already admitted that he disclosed that information thinking it would help her, but it backfired and didn't help her. As a matter of fact it hinder her.It hindered her. Did it change the illegal action she had already performed multiple times?
Come on you have seen the evidence... These links from Cspan are not in any respect doctored. I assume if you were watching Comey the day he gave his report? You would have been waiting for the shoe to drop like anyone with a bit of common sense... How in the world could you come away with the conclusion HRC did not break the law? OMG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opPh9uG29cQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghph_361wa0&t=12sHe knows HRC broke the law. The entire country does.
But if enough roadblocks can be thrown in the path of dialogue it may just vanish into smoke. So the demand for evidence that everyone has seen multiple times as a tactic to end the conversation before it begins. At least I can't think of another reason to demand it again and again and again.Sharlee01: Do I have to? Trey Gowdy is my least favorite person in the world, except for Kellyanne Conway. I have to get myself in the right mental state before I can watch him. Maybe I'll smoke some pot first, but I promise I will watch it, just not right now.
Peoplepower, Well, perhaps you should watch them. Comey is under oath and I would hope being truthful... So you dislike Gowdy? I Guess you could just put your fingers in your ears when Gowdy asks the question? After all, Comey's replies are all one needs to hear to discover Hillary broke many law. Is Comey lying under oath, committing perjury? I think you have actually watched both, maybe even live? But just can't defend the fact that HRC broke many laws, and you are not willing to face it. At any rate, I provide two very good sources. Perhaps you would rather read the transcript? Here is a link to CNN they provide the transcript word by excruciating word. Plus you may want to check out the entire hearing? Facts can be so tedious...
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ … nr.04.html
Between me and you, I feel at the appropriate time All the documents, related to the FISA warrants the FBI supplied the court will bring down the entire crooked Obama administration. Plus Horowitz has everything he needs to complete the HRC investigation. Plus Bruce Ohr was very sloppy when writing his emails This is all about to hit the fan... Check out what the Hill has printed... The Clinton already has one foot in the joint...
Hey, maybe Hillary can write another book? She can blame all the lackeys that failed to pull off the grift to put her in the WH.
Funny some of the media are not covering the Ohr emails. The hill posted them in all their glory.
http://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/400810 … ussia-caseSharlee01: I watched both of those youtube presentations. Trey Gowdy said, it is hard to prove criminal intent when it is based on circumstantial evidence. Comey said, she did use her private servers, but there was no criminal intent involved.
What do you think she was trying to accomplish by using her private servers? She deleted emails like we all do. Given her position in the State Department, it's understandable that she would have thousands of emails.
She didn't even delete the emails when she replaced her severs with new ones. According to Comey, they were able to piece together the chains. If she really wanted to hide her emails, she would have destroyed those disk drives. All you have to do is whack them with a hammer a few times.
Comey said the security systems in the State Department were lacking and needed to be improved and upgraded.
It seems like when a verdict is rendered for Hillary, it is never good enough for Hillary haters. It's the same thing with Benghazi, she was cleared of all charges. It lasted for 28 months and cost 7.8 million, but there are those who will still not accept the final verdict.
But yet people get upset with the Mueller investigation that hasn't even reached a verdict yet. They, including the president, have already come to the conclusion there was no conclusion and he has been vindicated."What do you think she was trying to accomplish by using her private servers?"
This woman has been in Government for over 5 years. She certainly knows each and every rule when it comes to communication. If I were to give an opinion on what she hoped to hide. All her backdoor deals with rogue nations for favors. And yes she deleted emails after she was served a warrant to hand all emails over to the FBI. She used a hammer on several devices. Actually, the fellow that destroyed several of her devices was given immunity.
In regards to Benghazi, she lied ... Over and over.
Not sure how you could view Comey admitting each and every law she broke and still not admit Hillary broke many laws...
This tells me a lot about your thought process. I have nothing left to say on the subject. I think my resources speak well for the facts. Hopefully, eventually, Hillary will pay for her many crimes.
In regards to president Trump, I don't think he did anything at all, zero... We all will have to wait and see.
I said a while back, this road will ultimately lead us right back to Hillary. This I am sure off.Sorry, I do not respect Snopes, they have gotten it wrong too many times... I guess now I know a bit more about where you do your research.
Snopes, the least trusted news source since Pravda .
That snopes ?ahorsback and Sharlee: That's why Snopes debunked the story about George Soros being a member on the NAZI SS. They even showed him in Uniform. It turns out that wasn't George Soros, because he would have been about nine years old. Yea, I wouldn't trust them either.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/georg … i-germany/
Sharlee01: You can only bring a horse to water, you can't make them drink. I am by no means calling you a horse. It is just a metaphor.
I agree she broke the law many times over and has been breaking the law for many years with her scams.
Yes, I trust if Horowitz finds HRC broke any laws he will report them in his findings. I am very sure he has seen all the documents and obtained all the information necessary to come to a conclusion if Hillary broke any laws. I have good faith he will bring her to justice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opPh9uG29cQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghph_361wa0&t=12s
LOL They already found evidence. Billy took care of it, though.
Wilderness: Prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.
Dianne: He was the very first congressmen to endorse Trump and tout all his great qaulifications to be president.
How stupid do you have to be to sit on a board; find out they are going to go belly up, tell you son to sell all his stock; and then have the son tell the whole damn family to sell their stock, before the announcement even went public...Since the stock crashed, all the innocent stock holders stock is now worthless
And then he lies to the FBI and the SEC. As adults, many people still lie and exaggerate their points, including our president. I guess they never learned as children that lying and exaggeration is not good, even when you become an adult.
Look out, here comes the Hillary and Obama comments. !Peoplepower , Sort of like Joe Biden and son making a billion dollar deal with a Chinese company while Biden is V.P. a week after the two of them flew to China on Air Force One ? ............... That kind of insider trading deal ?
Or Jared Kushner getting a 99 year lease with the Chinese on 666 Building.
ahorseback: First off the New York Post is owned by your buddy Rupert Murdoch who owns Fox News.
Second, it's known to be a right wing tabloid like The National Enquirer. The article is about, Peter Schweizer, an editor from Brietbart News who is pushing his book called the Secret Empires. Brietbart has no credibility with me. It is also fake news.
Third even if Biden and his son did do it, which I don't believe they did, Insider trading is the buying or selling of a security by someone who has access to material nonpublic information about a security and trades it before the information becomes public.
But nice try comparing "kind of insider trading" with real insider trading perpetrated by Rep Chris Collins and his family.It appears that Congressman Collins did not trade any stocks based on his insider information.
So why, by your provided definition of insider trading, are you, (or the State's Attorney), accusing him of insider trading?
GAGA: Oh I don't know, because he passed that information on to his son days before the public announcement of the company going down the tubes. And then his son passed it on to girl friends father; who then passed it to others; who all dumped their stock, which brought the price down to worthless. The reason Chris Collins didn't dump his stock is because it was held by an Australian firm.
They dumped millions of shares to save themselves from the downturn, before the news went public. Thereby saving themselves over 768,000 in loses.
Put yourself in the place of the innocent stock holders who were not privy to that information. Their stock went from having value to being worthless in the blink of an eye.
Oh, I almost forgot. Collins also lied to the FBI while under investigation.
Here is the family tree, followed by the timeline of the stock plummeting.
I think you missed my point peoplepower73.
I wasn't defending Collins. If the facts of the charges, as stated, are true, he seems guilty of insider-something. But, by the base definitions I found, and by your own stated definition, he isn't guilty of insider trading because he didn't trade any of his stocks. (that probably also includes any stocks he might control)
My comment to you was just a little nudge because you 'straightened' out ahorseback concerning that definition - and then misapplied it yourself.
You folks, (that's a light-hearted poke too ;-) ), have to stop reading what you think I said because of a preconceived notion, and read what I actually say.
GA
"Look out, here comes the Hillary and Obama comments."
LOL Don't know about that, but it sure didn't take long for the completely irrelevant comment about endorsing Trump to surface, now did it? Anything - anything at all - to get in a dig at our president even it it makes no sense and has nothing to do with anything.What is really telling is how someone with a user name “people power” jumps to the conclusion a person is guilty solely because he is charged and hasn’t even had a day in court. But that’s not enough, he has to attack the guy’s whole family. He does the same thing with Trump, guilty of things he hasn’t been charged of nor is there any evidence to charge him. You can’t reason with his ilk. I guess people power stands for guilty until proven innocent (even without proof or charges)
When it comes to President Trump, or anyone even remotely connected to him, you are absolutely right. Guilty without trial or evidence. Guilty by association, guilty of any possible malfeasance that can be imagined.
You don't live in a state where a Trump voter lives, do you? You could be next...TSAD:
The first chart you will see is how much the stock dropped after Collins, et al sold their shares. That made it worthless to innocent stock holders.
Geoffrey Berman, the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York is the one who is giving the presentation.
https://www.nbcnews.com/video/federal-p … 4815811705 via @nbcnews
He admitted it to Wolf on CNN. He told exactly what he did. How did he get selected for B of D. It reminds me of the havoc Bernie Madoff wreaked. Poor elderly people had to go out to get jobs because all of their savings were lost.
Intelligent people do not watch CNN. Ever.
Wesman Todd Shaw: Well it's a good thing you are intelligent enough to call people stupid who watch CNN. You must be a bright Texas-American.
Somewhat perceptive of you. Maybe there is hope for you, at this late stage.
Wesman: Have you ever watched CNN. If you haven't maybe you should grow a pair and try it. If you have never watched it, then you are allowing others to influence your judgement.
I read your profile and you don't seem to be that kind of person who would allow others to influence you. Besides, didn't your parents teach you not to insult others when you don't have all the information? Now that's stupid.
Todd Shaw offered a blunt opinion. He has that right. May it be time to realize his opinion is shared by many? So, in the end, does Todd's insulting CNN watchers provoked your insult in regards to Texan Americans? Who won?
Sharlee:
He is saying only stupid people watch CNN. I read his profile and he calls himself a Texas American.
Who wins?...nobody. But along with a childish remark he made, comes a childish reply...he started it.
Wesman has the right to say anything he wants, but he has the responsibility to himself and others to take the consequences of his opinions. Who is he benefiting by doing that? The harm that comes from that is that he can start a conflict in this forum and he has to be prepared for the consequences.
He is provoking CNN watchers on this forum with a comment that he can't even back up with evidence.
By the same token we have the right to insult him back, no matter how many people think like he does. I have a responsibility to myself and others to call him out. What is the benefit of what he has said? It only creates discord.
You call it a blunt opinion. I call it a direct insult.The other day you requested ways we could be civil to each other, converse without conflict. Perhaps I did not understand your request? Perhaps that only was directed at the right only? The left is permitted to insult, and degrade the opinion of the right? I don't believe you meant that? However, it appears we are back to disrespecting each other.
PP "Who wins?...nobody. But along with a childish remark he made, comes a childish reply...he started it."
Yes, you have the right to insult him back... And we can all go in a circle.
PP "He is provoking CNN watchers on this forum with a comment that he can't even back up with evidence."
Perhaps you could have used your above thought? Because your thought it's very plausible.
Perhaps you could have defended your opinion by stating - Todd, you are making a statement that provokes any and all that watch CNN? It appears as if you feel this to be true. Perhaps you might want to back up your opinion with facts, a resource or some form of a reason how you formed your opinion.
You feel you have the responsibility to call him out to argue your opinion, but do you have the right to speak for other? On a forum such as this, it would appear to be sort of groupthink. Do we want a discussion or groupthink? Yes, his statement creates discord. Rarely does a very opposing opinion create harmony.
I have been trying to control my innate bluntness. I learned a long time ago, some look at things as black and white, no gray. Some see only gray. I had to learn to respect gray. My education was in science. I chose science I think because it is 99.9% factual. 2 + 2 = 4 all of the time. Some of us are just wired that way. To me his statement was blunt, but I agree he should have given some form of explanation as to why he felt that way.
I did comment on Todd's original comment in regards to CNN.
Todd, "You are very blunt. Look forward to being dissected, analyzed, and many vague shadowy insults that will become apparent very quickly. Many here just are not open to opinions when they are so forthright. They will insult you up one side and down the other, all in the name their self-appointed intellect.
Perhaps you could have expanded your opinion with why you feel so strongly about those that watch CNN?""Yes, you have the right to insult him back... And we can all go in a circle."
Yet, you choose to jump on the people who didn't start it first? Why? Because they are the ones you disagree with politically. You are not helping anyone have productive conversations.
"Wesman has the right to say anything he wants, but he has the responsibility to himself and others to take the consequences of his opinions. Who is he benefiting by doing that? The harm that comes from that is that he can start a conflict in this forum and he has to be prepared for the consequences."
Dish it, but can't take it. Yes, I would prefer more productive discussions, but I can trade insult for insult as well. Many Trump supporters seem to be much softer than they lead us to believe.Sharlee: When you have a president who has the constant drumbeat of calling the MSM fake news and the enemy of the people, I believe it emboldens others like Wesman to give blunt insults, like he did.
The President of the United States has the right to say anything he wants, but he also has a responsibility to treat both sides of the news with respect.It benefits him and his supporters for re-election by discrediting the media that he doesn't like.
The harm from this is it emboldens people to say and do things that normally wouldn't have said or done because this president sets the example for this by blatantly choosing sides.
Again, he is dividing the country by doing this. But a country divided is easier to manipulate than one united. You are a math and science person. You know that 2+2 = 4, not 5You deflect.. I was making an attempt to nip something in the bud... Todd was certainly getting off on the wrong foot. I thought it was just a day or two ago we were trying to reach a way of conversing civilly? I was simply letting Todd realize, if he starts off with an insult he will receive a beat down. I offered him just a bit of advice on what to expect, and perhaps how to converse without conflict. Although today I have reverted to meeting an insult with sarcasm. (ongoing conversation with Hard Sun).
I response to your comment
PP "Sharlee: When you have a president who has the constant drumbeat of calling the MSM fake news and the enemy of the people, I believe it emboldens others like Wesman to give blunt insults, like he did."
Yes, it is very well Trump may be insight negativity that spills over on forums like this one. I thought we could perhaps be civil to Todd, at the same time hinting toward a solution to covering his point.
PP "The President of the United States has the right to say anything he wants, but he also has a responsibility to treat both sides of the news with respect.It benefits him and his supporters for re-election by discrediting the media that he doesn't like."
This is your opinion of the situation. It may well be true of some that support Trump
PP "The harm from this is it emboldens people to say and do things that normally wouldn't have said or done because this president sets the example for this by blatantly choosing sides. "
Once again this could apply to some perhaps, but he has many supporters that don't like or consider the Fake news statements he makes as proper. There is certainly a lot of bias news coverage on Trump. Some of what has been proven to e untrue. And yes many will defend his right to call out the media. This is their right.
I can't decide for myself what news has valid sources, what news is biased, what news is opinion based and what news is completely made up. So, I only listen to Trump and Trump approved news sources. They are real. Thanks. Trump told me to only believe him so that's what I'm doing..der.
Stephen Hawking was on the Anderson Cooper show cause only stupid people watch CNN. Now please tell us how stupid this guy is or how being a physicist does't meant you understand politics.
This is the dumbest and least productive comment I've seen here yet. Go back to Russia, er um, Texas cause only stupid people live there.
See how that works. It's so enlightening, and I'm sure I've changed your mind about CNN and Texas, right?You've got it very backwards. Trump was elected by people who already were insulted by CNN and MSNBC, and most of the rest of it.
I wish someone could tag me when you finally make a comment I might appreciate.Wesman: Tell me how the MSM insulted Trump voters before he was elected?
It's not my fault you don't recognize genius. CNN and MSNBC have run stories that may have insulted certain groups. That's part of journalism, and it doesn't make it all fake news. Intelligent people can't make up their own minds about the merits of a story. Once again, it takes someone with some intellect decipher these things.
" Once again, it takes someone with some intellect decipher these things."
What a lofty comment... Although it does speak for your attitude. You apparently are not willing to hear anyone else's opinion. If their opinion differs from yours you toss them an insult.
" recognize genius."... Really?Well said. Saved me the trouble, now, and in the future.
I do have a high opinion of myself. I've earned it. Besides, you support "I'm a very stable genius" guy. Is Trump the only one allowed to have a high opinion of themselves as he is the exulted one? This is just wacky. Many Trump supporters seem to be much softer than they wanted others to believe they are. Maybe it's all the bone spurs. See, non-Trump supporters can be uncaring also. All these Trump feelings getting drug through the mud...so sad.
Look back. I didn't start the insults. And I really could not care less about your opinion of my attitude.
It's very evident you don't care about anyone's opinion but own. You care only about the people's opinions that agree with you. Since you feel it fine to speak one's true opinion and insult anyone at random.
Buckle up, You are one that follows at the back of the herd... Just waiting for a feeding from others. You clearly don't think for yourself and shrivel when it comes to defending any of your point of view. You use insults and deflects to converse. Just my opinion. In my circle, we have a word that defines people as you. Fluffy, up on a soapbox loudly expelling fluffy opinions they picked up from others, just hoping to belong to a group... Take it from me, you belong to a group, and they are the only ones that will put up with your chatter. I Would think you smart enough to have recognized that?Yeah, have fun doing and seeing what Trump tells you to do. I'm a maverick, a legend, lol. I fight fire with fire and never belonged to any group or "circle" like you just admitted you do. So, who is letting others do their thinking for them?
I'm done here..wasting my time with lesser human beings. Heil Trump and death to the ignorant defectors. GLike I said you fall back on defecting and insults. I certainly have not brought president trump into this conversation? That was you... Very Fully of you.
"Maverick" a legend". Do you read your comments? I think my comments speak loudly, and really put you in a very small corner. Time to look around, when you need to shoot insults, deflect, and pat yourself on the back. You're backed up and trapped in a corner. That's where most like yourself sign off... And walk away with a glib insult. And your glib insult is mighty old.
You are very blunt. Look forward to being dissected, analyzed, and many vague shadowy insults that will become apparent very quickly. Many here just are not open to opinions when they are forthright. They will insult you up one side and down the other, all in the name their self-appointed intellect.
Perhaps you could have expanded your opinion with why you feel so strongly about those that watch CNN?This blunt opinion/insult set off the other insults. When I make such blunt statements, I am attacked, as are others who don't support Trump. So, are we supposed to cower in fear of such insults? Once again, an odd sort of PC that I don't want any part of. Who cares about feelings anyway? Remember...this is the political environment Trump supporters voted for. So, reap what you sew and then whine when it's thrown back at you. This is how I see this all playing out with many Trump supporters. I don't care what you think about me to be honest. I've been through it and back again, and I feed off of passive aggressiveness. The insults make me stronger. Over and out snowflakes
I think my comment to Todd pointed out a better way to address people that are following this thread. I gave a reason and though for Todd to consider before posting an insult. I warned him of consequences. I offered a solution to getting along with other posters. Yes, when you are blunt you receive insults in return, so do I. No, you certainly do not have to cower in fear. Point out you were insulted, and why.
Perhaps - Hey, you insulted me and many others by directing your comments to all that watch CNN ! Maybe we need to address the insult head-on, and not shot back with more insults? If you read your comments, you do insult without addressing your original grip.
You make an attempt to belittle others, and that's sort of sad. Because we know very little about those we are communicating with.
I just addressed a comment that you lead off with "I don't care about your opinion". Then why did you even address me?
Another example of how you addressed a comment " Once again, it takes someone with some intellect decipher these things."
Perhaps you should not attempt to insult the intelligence of someone you know very little about?Are you still talking to me? I don't care about your opinion any longer. You are not that important...it's oK. I don't want you to care about my opinion. Heil Trump.
Please keep posting, you are funny... I would think your comments are being enjoyed and laughed at by some. I won't converse with you anymore. I would not want you to stub your toe kicking the ground so frequintly... LOL
She's talking again, she's talking and talking and talking. I don't back down from passive aggressiveness and it hurts your soul to think I don't like Trump and the Trumpians are behaving like the snowflakes here. I turned it around and around, makes your head spin like the depths of the Trump White House.
Who cares about the feelings of Trump supporters? I remember the tshirts.I will give you the last word. I just think it's fair. Do you realize all can read your comments? As well as mine? Yeah...
Do you realize you can't help but respond to someone who says they cannot care less about your opinion? I told you I don't have a circle and I'm not scared about what people may think of me...you are. So if I look foolish, you certainly do too. I don't take myself that seriously, yo. I'm not running for office and I shouldn't. Just like your hero Trump should not have.
I wish you all the best.OMG --- Need I remind you I was not the one that stated: "I do not care about your opinion"? That was you? Actually, you have said it several times. Actually, that was your first statement you addressed to me that started this conversation. As I said if one is interested they can read your comments.
Hard Sun - "Are you still talking to me? I don't care about your opinion any longer. You are not that important...it's oK. I don't want you to care about my opinion. Heil Trump."
Heil Maverick! LOL
"Do you realize you can't help but respond to someone who says they can care less about your opinion?"
Um, yes, I was the one who said I don't care about your opinion. This is why I stated you are responding to someone who doesn't care about your opinion. I said it several times and I'll say it again. I no longer care about your opinion. You completely missed the point.
Take care and, once again, I wish you all the best. And thank you for the cool Maverick ace card.Sharlee:
This is what you said about my comment to Wesman, a few posts back:
"The other day you requested ways we could be civil to each other, converse without conflict. Perhaps I did not understand your request? Perhaps that only was directed at the right only? The left is permitted to insult, and degrade the opinion of the right? I don't believe you meant that? However, it appears we are back to disrespecting each other."
I have been giving this some thought. I think the reason we were able to meet on middle ground was because we agreed before hand that was going to be our goal. We picked one issue and agreed that you would present your side and I would present my side. Then we were able to meet in the middle.
My point here is, I think in these forums, the only way people can be civil and come to some common conclusion is they have to use a process like we did.
Otherwise, when people insult you or your group, we are back to being in a combat zone. I know you don't like it, but it is the natural order of things in these forums.
I don't know if you are aware, but I have been using a pattern that I learned and applied it in the last few comments.
It's called a stake holders analysis. It goes like this. Each person in an issue has a stake in the issue. You can determine each persons stake by analyzing their rights, responsibility, benefits, and harms and how it affects them and each of the stake holders.
It goes like this: Wesman has the right to say what he wants, but he has a responsibility to others to not insult them. His ego benefits from doing that, but he harms others by insulting them without anything to back up his claim.Sounds wonderful on paper. I have noticed a pattern to conversations that occur on this forum. It seems many comments start out with the person just offering and explaining their view on a given subject, sometimes offering good resources to explain how they developed their opinion.
Then, another comes in with an opposing opinion, and the pattern shows many times at the end of the opposing view comes a vague personal insult. (one only needs to read the beginning of most threads to see this pattern) Most insult is directed at one's intelligence. Sometimes in regard to being ill-educated on the subject, some just out and out rude...
"I don't care about your opinion"...
It's clear many here don't respect others opinions and feel they can express derogatory insults, lofty judgments. It appears many are seeking to "win" a conversation and will abruptly insult to make an attempt to discredit others that are participating in the conversation.
Perhaps if we could stick to debating the subject, and leave personal insults out of a given conversation we all would be better off.
Perhaps let a debate play its course, and let those reading the content come away with their own conclusion. By leaving out personal insults it leaves room to expand on any given subject. Insults only show an ugly side of anyone's personality. When a conversation gets personal it takes away from the subject.
I am going to make every effort to practice what I preach.
With Wesman, I made an attempt to be truthful. I inform him he was starting out on the wrong foot. My comment to him caused a "stir" and resulted in the conversation being diverted to my comment.
This was my comment to Wesman -
"You are very blunt. Look forward to being dissected, analyzed, and many vague shadowy insults that will become apparent very quickly. Many here just are not open to opinions when they are forthright. They will insult you up one side and down the other, all in the name their self-appointed intellect.
Perhaps you could have expanded your opinion with why you feel so strongly about those that watch CNN?"
I was truthful, and what came after my comment well proved my point. I offered Wesman what I thought was good advice to avert conflict.
In my opinion, we need to leave out all the personal insults.sharlee: So in other words, when you insult people in this forum or any forum, be prepared to suffer the consequences, no matter who you are what side you are on.
I don't think you gave him advice, you gave him a warning as to what to expect after he made his insulting comment.
S: "Perhaps you could have expanded your opinion with why you feel so strongly about those that watch CNN?"
M: If you put yourself in my shoes, you would know I've done that so many times in this forum and other forums, I'm tired of it. He was just one more at the wrong time. I asked him to provide evidence for his claims but he never did. So much of what we call opinion is driven by propaganda on both sides. That's why people can't come up with evidence, because the are just verbalizing propaganda.
Trump is the biggest propagandist of them all with his fake news and enemy of the people. The people that agree with him, believe him on blind faith only. Because if they actually checked it out, they would know it is not fake news and the reporters are not the enemy of the people.
I only know of one person who asked him why he does that and that was Lesly Stahl of 60 Minutes. He told her he does it because if the MSM says anything negative about him, his supporters won't believe them. He has put a whole country into turmoil just to save his collective butt. There are now over 300 newspapers that have issued op ed pieces condemning his use of that terminology.My view on this is simple. If you support a President that hurls personal insults almost continuously then you have no real ground to stand on when you say political discussions should be free of insults. Why should we take political opinions seriously for those who support a president that behaves this way? You can't have it both ways with me.
I think you have put a bright light on the problem. If one supports a concept, an ideal, a person, do you have a right to insult a person or should you be insulting the ideal, the concept? It is very clear we don't agree on much of what we have discussed. I don't feel I have the right to insult you, disrespect you as a person. I don't get any gratification insulting a person just because I can.
I find it odd that you feel you can put anyone that supports the president in a specific group. People are so diverse.
I will respect you
"You can't have it both ways with me."
Yes, one can have it both ways. Just depends on the other person that you are conversing with. Some can meet in the middle and respect each other's right to their opinion. Some can't do this. And that's OK because people are diverse.
I said perhaps discussions could be clear of personal insults. If you look at this logically, we don't really know each that well to insult each other... LOL It's only natural that if we disagree on a subject we can strongly debate the subject. But why the personal insults?
We are diverse in our opinions, and you have made it clear that your opinion of this president is set in stone. And that's your prerogative.
I will not comment on your posts, because I am stepping back and respecting your space so to say.
PP -"I don't think you gave him advice, you gave him a warning as to what to expect after he made his insulting comment."
I think it could be seen both ways. So, I agree with you. I do think my comment may have come off that way due to it being written. I had hoped to warn him, and nip a problem in the bud.
PP."If you put yourself in my shoes, you would know I've done that so many times in this forum and other forums, I'm tired of it. He was just one more at the wrong time. I asked him to provide evidence for his claims but he never did. So much of what we call opinion is driven by propaganda on both sides. That's why people can't come up with evidence, because the are just verbalizing propaganda."
I can see why you have become tired of the differing opinions, especially when you feel a lack of factual resources being provided. It very much appears Wesman was provoking an argument, not willing to provide any form of a rebuttal or resources.
PP. "Trump is the biggest propagandist of them all with his fake news and enemy of the people. The people that agree with him, believe him on blind faith only. Because if they actually checked it out, they would know it is not fake news and the reporters are not the enemy of the people."
PP"The people that agree with him, believe him on blind faith only".
I disagree with this sentiment. I think many like myself find the way president Trump communicates at times difficult to understand or appreciate. However, on the other hand, some of us find it very human, when he offers a very basic transparent opinion. At any rate, he is understood differently by the beholder.
In regards to Fake news. I do consider cable news networks show bias on both sides and do twist his words to suit their purpose. In regards to him putting the country into turmoil. Am I not in experiencing turmoil in my life? I am satisfied with Trump's job performance. His presidency has been positive in my life. So, you might be overreacting by saying "the in turmoil"? It is clear that many agree with our sentiment, but not fair to include us all. I am aware of the 300 news outlets that condemned Trump referring to media as "fake". This is a good show of support from the journalists. I think they had every right to do so, and agree Trump should not insult journalism as a whole. Combining them into an absolute group... Wrong on all counts, because there are many honest respectable news outlets available that are not showing bias, and reporting all the news.
The best advice is to ignore all news media.
With the freedom of the internet, everyone can search and research for themselves the issues and get to the source of the information.
For example, rather then rely on some news outlet to report on what Rush Limbaugh said...you can go to his podcast and listen for your self.
This applies to political candidates running for office. Rather than rely on what others characterize him or her position, just go look at the actual interview...and see what that person actually stands for.Yes Jack, I laugh at Limbaugh and Hannity everyday while listening on the radio. Their comedy shows are hilarious....not very factual though.
Just the opposite. I learned more about how politics work from Rush.
He has been right about so many things. Pretty good for a college drop out.
He has 13 million regular listeners.
Not bad compared to the main stream media.
You can laugh all you want.
He is winning...in the arena of conservative ideas.Yes, he wins among rightwingers, I could expect no less. I would rather listen to Bill Maher or George Carlin.
No wonder you don't know anything about politics, Jack. A drop out and a former dishwasher are your political mentors. Neither of which ever held office or attended journalism school. No wonder you back Trump...
And I do laugh all I want at Limbaugh and Hannity. But I do feel sympathy for their misguided listeners/ watchers.It is precisely that Rush is not part of the inside beltway... that he has been spot on in his political analysis.
People who attacks Rush, or denigrate him, do not know or listen to Rush.
If you have tried, you might just learn something.
Why do you suppose the media and his opponents focus on what he says? And try to distort his analysis...
Becareful what you are fed.
You can go to the source. He is on most AM radio stations from noon-3 every weekday.I listen to the idiot every day, Jack. He comes on at noon here followed by the other idiot Hannity. As I've said before, I like to see the day's talking points before I hear them from Trump. And the conspiracies they come up with are hilarious.
Yes, a former oxycoton addict and a dishwasher sounds about your speed for political facts.You are one of those listeners who don’t get it.
Since you are a regular listener as claimed, then you must have heard numerous first time callers who said they were surprised by what Rush’s show is about. They became regular listeners for the entertainment value. They may mot always agree with what he said...
You should also know what Rush say sometimes are satire.
For you to be listening and not get that is truly amazing.
Either you are a liar or a fool.
I challenge you to come up with one item that Rush say in today’s show that are inaccurate.
His show end at 3pm EST.
I look forward to your response if you dare...I know Rush is media whore who has never held an office in his life or a journalistic diploma. I've been listening to his tirades for years and only the ignorant believe him. He rarely takes calls from those on the left and usually insults those he allows to question him. In that, he's like Trump.
I usually try to catch part of his show, so I'll get back to you. It probably won't take the entire 3 hours to find an inaccuracy anyway. Ciao!Jack: I give you credit for recognizing Rush's satire, but with all of his viewers, I'm sure there are uncounted millions of viewers who don't see it as satire and believe him. Political satire is a very powerful medium in influencing people's thinking.
I would be shocked regular listeners do not know what he is talking about.
Only those who read liberals blogs who tell others about what Rush said...are fooled.
Just IMHO...Why does he have to fool anyone, Jack? Why not stick to his "facts"? I'm sure there are many like yourself who don't care if he does or not.
I hope Jack reads some of the ridiculous quotes from Rush on your link, but I doubt it...
I told you Jack wouldn't read your link, Mike. The quotes from Rush tells one all they need to know about how wacko Rush is.
Just as I thought, a phony fake and a fraud. You know nothing about rush and you don’t listen either. Just a troll...
Did you visit the link, Jack? You didn't because you trust Rush more than facts. And you're much nearer to being a troll than I, Jack. Read the link if you're not frightened to and then come back and opine on it.
Randy, I don't think you are a troll, if that helps. You have given intelligent input over the years. You don't have to pay me!
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I prefer looking at Twitter which has the latest info on everything! You pick what you want to follow. It is important that once you get that story, check the other side. I always do.
I remember when friends and family members would separate over G Bush. With Trump it's on a larger scale on gender, race, immigrating, environment and etc.
- ahorsebackposted 6 years ago
0No one needs to prove one iota of how much bias one outlet or another of news media owns ! We all know that Fox is biased just as we know CNN is , Msnbc , CBS , any of them . However , it IS our older people who know most about what media should entail for accuracy , integrity and honest reporting .[Or should know ]
For at least two decades however , our younger generations are being bought by the news media FOR their individual labels , Why , because they are all a dying entity , just like most of the hard print paper outlets , our TV news mediums are suffering the same losses . By a most recent example CNN has been suffering from it's constant barrage of "fake news ", their ratings suck , their viewership is low , they are just now experiencing a major shake up in realization of their reporting misdeeds . Why are some channels growing and not seemingly suffering ? They are holding the attention of majority viewers .
I believe the only changes in the near future will be as younger voting generations mature or drop out of the voting game altogether , lack of interest , jobs , families and other more important things will draw their attentions from this extreme media bias . Who will suffer most , The news media itself which deserves it --AND they know that .ahorseback: Just because Trump calls other outlets fake news doesn't mean they are fake news. However, Fox News has a much larger audience than all the other outlets. I watched both sides and there is definitely a difference in each sides coverage and agenda. Just because Fox puts a little video on the screen about a protest that can't been seen and never talks about it, does not mean they are presenting whole total coverage. Just because Giuliani says, there were no Americans indicted in this last set of Mueller arrests doesn't mean that Trump is vindicated and the investigation is a witch hunt, as he says. But that is the way fox will present to its audience and they will believe it. That's why this country is divided.
Peoplepower , So yes , The news media is biased , no defense of Fox here except they enjoy and are the experiencing "most trusted " ratings. I'll stick with deciphering half truths any-day than fall for other channels who totally ignore honest reporting . You can have all of those channels .
Apparently you never learned to analyze for yourself and need desperately to be counseled to what media wants you to know , That falls right into the lock-step of the left anyway and merely signals to the rest of us that your either ,one , 'media news lazy' or that you prefer being indoctrinated out of psychological need for group safety .
I'd far rather decide for myself after analytical thought ,
than follow anyone blindly , I learned that leftist mumbo-jumbo in the sixties , some never have nor will , Good luck with that !Is it possible that Fox ratings are skewed high because they are a unique entity? I think OAN is on the line of Fox; however, it is a newer outlet and does not have the money of rupert Murdoch behind it.
CNN competes with MSNBC and possibly HLN. I don't know if there are more networks of the same ilk.Deleted
oops! I meant "They are" rather than "there." I returned from a trip late last night when I posted that.
Peoplepower, I agree that we are divided and see things differently. I could not care less about the protests in London. I also don't care about the protests in New York, Los Angeles or any other major city. I spoke to some protesters in Washington DC once, and they all seemed pretty clueless. There are organizations who pay people to protest. Yes, it's true. Most of these aren't people who are upset, they're people trying to earn some money. Here is an interesting article from the Chicago Tribune. I also had a protester tell me he was there because he answered an ad on Craig's list.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opin … story.html
I disagree with you. Mueller has a problem. There is no proof of collusion, which is what he was given a task to find. I believe people on the left are not able to comprehend the concept of collusion. If they did, they would see it in the Hillary Clinton campaign. Because they don't, they can only think they see it in Trump's campaign. It is this lack of ability to comprehend things that makes people on the left believe the things they believe.
Here is an interesting aspect to the Mueller investigation. He indicted Russians, and a their defense team showed up to court. They demanded to see the evidence against their client. This is a standard request during the discovery phase of a trial. The Mueller team has not provided the defense team anything. Why? Once he hands his evidence over to the defense team, it becomes public record. Wonder what we will find out and what Mueller is hiding. THIS should be front page news. This investigation is a hoax.
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/artic … s-baselessReadmikenow, you're exactly correct. I have consistently found liberal-minded people to be far less informed about the basics of not only current events but American history and civics than conservatives. And I should know, I live in Massachusetts! Most of their (and I'm not referring to anyone in this thread) silly opinions are based on falsehoods and propaganda they've been fed and simply believe instead of using their brains to figure out the truth for themselves. Once you challenge them, as you found with the protesters, they can't come up with coherent reasons for why the believe what they do. Normally, when challenged, a liberal will back down, if not right away then when the conversation gets going, because they cannot defend their positions. They will shut the conversation right down instead of carrying on a calm, reasoned argument... because they can't! For me it is frustrating, as I enjoy a spirited debate without rancor or bitterness. Not usually possible with true liberals.
Sounds more like a description of fox fake channel and their fans:
It’s funny because I bet liberals would say the exact same about conservatives that they have experience with. We all tend to form our opinions on people based on bias, whether we recognize it or not.
I genuinely don’t see what good it does to make general statements about people based on politics. It’s not at all productive and furthers our inability to communicate with each other on individual basis, which is honestly all we should be judging someone on in the first place.The difference being we have a psychologically unsound serial liar in the oval office who utters more falsehoods in an hour than most politicians do in their entire careers and he has managed to convince about 30% of extremely gullible voters that he's the truth telling messiah:
Fox Fake Channel is no better with the manufactured stories and just as dangerous to the USA:
How does a rational Progressive Democrat communicate with that? It's virtually impossible and that's why the orange blob in the white house must be removed ASAP:
Fox does not have a competing outlet. The other outlets are basically the same. I think the total viewers for the other outlets should be juxtaposed to Fox to properly analyze.
- ahorsebackposted 6 years ago0
I think the federal government Department Of Media Bias should send all liberals TV monitors to determine just WHO listens to Fox , CNN , Msnbc.....................whomever . I suspect a lot of But Hurt liberals are watching Fox News daily .
ahorseback: I don't think you have the b**ls to watch anything but Fox. I watch both sides as much as I can. How many times have you watched the so called "fake news" channels? It's very easy for me to switch between channels 202 and 360. It's very enlightening to watch Hannity present miss-information that Trump tweets the next day. and accuses Obama of paying off Iran...with their own money. How many fox people believe that Obama paid off Iran with tax payer's money?
Did You know that Trump and Hannity talk almost nightly around 10 - 10;30 for twenty minutes or so ?
I watch at least three news programs on TV , one of them Fox , sometimes CNN , more often than not ABC , I read at least fifteen news sights on the net daily , so for you to tell me I'm under informed is a joke ! Ba**s ? Yes , I'm more informed than you and always have been PP ., face it , you're acting like a typical angry leftist puppet .Hi Peoplepower73,
Most of the reporters on Fox aren't even journalists. I was watching not long ago, and Hannity called himself an "entertainer." I looked him up on Wikipedia, and he never even completed a journalism degree. Many on this station didn't.
At least the journalists at MSNBC are intelligent and educated, many winning awards and graduating at the tops of their classes. They cover the issues and don't hide facts.
Can you imagine the outcry if Obama sold out our country, dissed our intelligence community, and had a one on one meeting with Putin after insulting our allies in Europe? Trump never served in the military so has no clue how important our allies are.This idiot is ruining our country. I never saw Putin smile as much as I saw today. I don't know when the fawning Rs will wake up to see we live in a dictatorship, as all our democratic ideals are being systematically chipped away. I can't tell if Trump is just stupid, and didn't know anything about a government, or if he just ran his company like a tyrant and bullied everyone. I suspect the latter.
I live in NJ and saw how many of his "great deals" went bad. He can't even borrow money from American banks. I am sure he will be tied to money laundering when this investigation if over. His building in NY isn't even called Trump Tower anymore, they took the sign down. More bad debts, when he makes enough money off our government, against the law, to pay them. It's so sad to see Rs this brainwashed. Fox is all about conspiracy theories.Right on Jean. I don't live in Jersey, but watched many first-hand accounts of his tactics. I'm moderate politically, but Trump is just ridiculous. Failed realtor, reality TV show star who sued, borrowed, and bankrupted his way to the top.
Jean, Hannity IS an entertainer! His show is an OPINION show, not a news broadcast. There's a big difference. Fox NEWS journalists include Brett Baier and Shep Smith (who is VERY liberal, btw). I can understand how you can blur the difference between opinion/editorial programs and news programs, since the other networks continually do so, but it makes a difference when you're talking about bias. It's fine to be biased on an opinion show, that is entertainment and geared toward a specific audience. But not on a straight news broadcast.
Sparrowlet: The first thing Trump does when he comes back from the summit, is to have a sit down with Hannity who is an entertainer. He and Trump speak every night and Hannity advises Trump on many issues. He even gives Trump miss-information, that Trump tweets. He has no political office, He is an entertainer who has a huge influence over the President of the United States. What's wrong with this picture?
pp73, I think "a huge influence" is way overstating it. I sincerely doubt that Trump gives Hannity's advice any more weight than he does anyone else's. I am not at all worried that someone, let alone Hannity, can be that great a single influence on Trump. He has a wonderful ability (one of his strengths as a leader) to listen to various, even opposing, opinions and come to his own conclusion. Nothing wrong with Trump appearing on anyone's show he chooses, as far as I can see. As for the tweeting, I've never approved of that. Not for the tweeting itself, but because he tends to be impulsive about it and doesn't think things through before tweeting, which I think is not at all helpful to himself as president or to the country overall. However, it does have a positive side, and would be more so if he'd use it more wisely. At least he's able to answer his critics almost in "real time", which is something no other prez has really been able to do before. With the extreme bias and often totally false news reporting these days, that's a useful tool, or could be if, as I said, he learned to be smart about what he says!
Readmikenow:
1. I read your column written by Rex Huppke. I clicked on the link to the Craig List and much to my surprise, it doesn't work.
2. Rex Huppke is known to write farce for the Chicago Tribune. Here is what they say about him:
https://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/t … d=11874938
3. All your US News article says, is that the Russian companies lawyers said that their clients didn't break the law, which is just their opinion.
4. It's interesting that without doing the research and analysis how people can draw conclusions. So you believe liberal protesters are earning up to $78,000 per year by yelling and waving a stupid sign? You should change sides and become one of those protesters. Better yet, I think I will become a protester.
5. This is what you wrote: " It is this lack of ability to comprehend things that makes people on the left believe the things they believe."
6. I think you should look in a mirror. As I said in the title to this forum, "This is why our country is divided."Peoplepower, I will agree we are divided.
I could refute every point you made, but why? It won't change anything.
I could tell you I had a protester tell me to my face, in person, he was getting paid....and it would nothing. I could point out how Mueller's investigation is so pathetic on so many levels and you wouldn't get it. I could mention how Obama spent US taxpayer money to try and influence the elections in Israel, and you would NOT get it.
We are a divided country. There are those of us who elected a president and believe he is doing a pretty good job for someone with no political experience. There are those of you who just can't accept that your candidate lost. People on the left don't have the mental or emotional maturity to let go and accept your candidate lost. Rather than support a properly elected president, like children, those on the left have done nothing but have an emotional, childlike tantrum since Trump got elected. As children, you only care about having your feelings being validated and will continue your emotional fits until you get what you want. It's not working with President Trump and the right. I believe he will be elected again in 2020. Oh, the meltdowns then. I hope Hillary runs. Defeating her twice will be very sweet. Let's face it, the Democrats have NOBODY who can beat Trump at this stage of the game.
So, we will remain divided. The right will continue to ignore the childlike behavior of those on the left and continue doing what is best for the country. It's a shame that all the people on the left are also benefiting from it.Readmikenow: We are divided that is for sure. That is why I created this forum. The difference is I proved to you why you comments are miss-informing, not only you but everybody else who reads them. And all you do is create another comment that insults, not only me, but all the people who don't agree with you and Trump's agenda.
By the way, why don't you get over Hillary, she is history. I think everybody else has except the right wing. You guys keep bringing her up as if we are stuck back in the election. We have moved on, why don't you? The simple truth is I don't like Trump because he is a master used car salesman and can't be trusted with anything he does or says.Readmikenow: We are divided that is for sure. That is why I created this forum. The difference is I proved to you why you comments are miss-informing, not only to you but everybody else who reads them. And all you do is create another comment that insults, not only me, but all the people who don't agree with you and Trump's agenda.
By the way, why don't you get over Hilliary, she is history. I think everybody else has except the right wing. You guys get bringing her up as if we are stuck back in the election. We have moved on, why don't you? The simple truth is I don't like Trump because he is a master used car salesman and can't be trusted with anything he does or says.So says the guy that is a die hard supporter of all things of posted left hate and bias .
ahorseback: I'm going to be a bit of a fortune teller. I believe Trump will come away from the meeting with Putin and tell the world what an incredible, fantastic, excellent, super-good meeting he had and that Putin said there was no collusion or interference with the election and I believe him.
Why can I say that? Because Trump wants it to be a one-on-one meeting with no one in the room except translators. That gives him the opportunity to come out of the meeting and say anything he wants to the whole world.
He is a master used car salesman and can't be trusted with anything he does or says.In your opinion, would coming out of the meeting and telling the world that it was worthless and that Russia has no intention of behaving itself in a world of peace and good will help the world? Would it contribute to the well being of the people of the US, its allies or anyone else?
In your experience has any world leader carried out such a meeting and announced to the world it was a terrible meeting?
In your opinion should Trump announce to the world that it was a terrible meeting (assuming it is) and what would you expect the results to be of such an announcement?
Do you, in your opinion, expect Putin to say anything else but denial about collusion or interference? If not, why the negative reaction to Trump's expected announcement of such a statement? Would you prefer that Trump lie and say Putin admitted it openly?If the meeting is not productive, I believe he should say so.
What do we have to gain or lose? It would be good to be friends with Putin. It would also be good to be friends with every country on earth. It won't happen because of the alpha male egos and, in some cases, fear of those who are stronger.Yes, it would be a good thing to be friends with Putin and Russia. And declaring a meeting to be garbage will never produce that result.
It's funny here - Trump is very much taken to task for not being very political and statesman like, and here is someone taking him to task, before it even happens. for doing exactly that.It's a good thing to be friends with the dictator and nation that launched a major propaganda campaign against our electoral system?
Or is it because they helped Trump win the election and therefore a dictator is suddenly the best friend of Trump supporters?
Peoplepower, the left has NOT moved on. What upsets most on the right is how Hillary is YOUR standard for president. If you are against campaigns colluding with foreign governments, why aren't you upset about Hillary? This is one thing the left is famous for....double standards. Ignore all the corruption of Hillary and Obama, BUT hold President Donald Trump to a higher standard. Obama puts children in cages for years just like the Trump administration and the left can't remember. Protesting a Supreme Court nomination before it even happens? Double standards and hypocrisy, that is the political left in the United States.
Trump was not properly elected, he didn't win the popular vote, that's why he has to keep harping on Hillary and her emails. His whole staff uses their private servers, so they are just a bunch of hypocrites.
We have proof the the Russians hacked into our servers in the 2016 election. Putin wanted Trump to win. If he was a responsible President instead of a narcissistic child, he would get techs working to preserve and fix our voting system so it couldn't ever be hacked again.
And Rs can get hacked too!You need to read the U.S. Constitution and especially the part about the Electoral College. Understand that will enable you to understand how President Trump was lawfully elected. I do wonder why the DNC refused the help of the intelligence community when it came to dealing with their servers being hacked and more.
Trump was not lawfully elected because he got help from the Russians.
Even Trump's own intelligence chief says so.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/16/dan-coa … putin.htmlNice try. NO proof their interference changed a single vote. Let me give you an analogy. It is similar to how Obama used U.S. taxpayer money to try and influence the election in Israel. His efforts and U.S. taxpayer money didn't change the outcome. Maybe if Obama would have asked Putin how to influence an election he would have done better in Israel.
http://thehill.com/policy/international … n-reportedIt is naive to think that massive interference by the Russians had absolutely no impact on the vote.
Even if they did hack the three critical states, no one in our government would ever let it be known for fear of destroying the credibility of the entire electoral system.
I may not have access to CIA and FBI files and therefore can't prove Trump won the election because of Russian interference. But you can't prove the opposite.When did a few facebook posts and an attempt to hack a computer become "massive interference"? When we needed a bogeyman to blame for not getting our way?
"I may not have access to CIA and FBI files and therefore can't prove Trump won the election because of Russian interference."
You're right - you can't, and the only information we have is that their efforts were ineffectual. But we'll assume they fixed the election anyway, because...what? It makes you feel good to know Trump couldn't win without them so we'll just assume they produced the win?Everyone in politics understands the fact that 'negative adds' have a tremendous detrimental effect on those targeted, our intelligence agencies which traitor trump betrayed yesterday in Helsinki, have documented evidence that Russian Agents paid for millions in negative adds against Hillary on social media during the presidential campaign:
To claim that those negative adds had no detrimental effect on Hillary's vote count is to deny the facts:Lordy, Wilderness, even Trump's cabinet-level Director of National Security says there is massive interference.
"a few facebook posts and an attempt to hack a computer "
Wow."Minimisation (psychology) Minimisation is a type of deception involving denial coupled with rationalisation in situations where complete denial is implausible. It is the opposite of exaggeration. Minimization—downplaying the significance of an event or emotion—is a common strategy in dealing with feelings of guilt."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimisation_(psychology)Is it any worse than "maximisation"? As in "massive interference"? One recognizes what happened, and that it has gone on for decades with every country around, one blows it up until the country is on the verge of nuking Russia over it - which would you prefer?
Huh...well, I'm not sure who's advocating to nuke Russia, not me, and it really doesn't seem to be a theme coming from any particular group within the government. You responded to a minimizing accusation by minimizing more.
Once again, it seems unpatriotic to continually defend Russia with the everyone does it argument. I sincerely believe that the US is better than Russia; that our government is closer to morally correct than Putin's mix of KGB/organized crime/dictatorship. So, I don't give a damn right now that we've meddled in other nation's elections. I'm American, so I care about America and our democracy."You responded to a minimizing accusation by minimizing more. "
That's correct. And the exaggeration made the statement nearly useless, didn't it? Just as "massive interference" did - that Russia tried to interfere in a minor way no different than what millions of Americans did is undeniable, but that there was any actual effect is unprovable. Certainly there was no "massive" interference, not as I understand the term.
"So, I don't give a damn right now that we've meddled in other nation's elections. I'm American, so I care about America and our democracy."
I care, too. A lot. And, IMO, the hypocrisy of such a statement is something we as Americans need to rid ourselves of. It has become so pervasive that it is an everyday thing any more - something to ignore and forget - but I disagree with that concept. If we're to take someone to task for an objectionable action then we need to make sure that we aren't doing the same thing. Either that or forgive and forget, for however much I care about the country and it's people we are not gods on a pedestal; what we choose to do we should not object to others doing, too.I wish I could have put that in words as well as you have ! The above political games between the US and Russia have been happening since pre- Eisenhower days , Why all of a sudden it's some huge issue is obviously only TDS .
Political generalizations are not good. Labeling people as libtards and deplorables is not good. I take people to task no matter the party but my country is my country just like my family is my family. You attack my brother and I attack you.
I understand the reason for the anti-American sentiment from some Trump supporters a bit more now.
Why all of a sudden is it an issue to interfere with American elections? What if Obama even implied he believed Putin over the CIA. There would be right wing heads exploding all across the country. LOL
"I care, too. A lot. And, IMO, the hypocrisy of such a statement is something we as Americans need to rid ourselves of. It has become so pervasive that it is an everyday thing any more - something to ignore and forget - but I disagree with that concept."
What the hell are we supposed to ignore and forgive and forget? What concept do you disagree with? I take people to task over actions I think are objectionable no matter what party they are in..if that's what you are stating here.
What if Obama even implied he believed Putin over the CIA. There would be right wing heads exploding all across the country. LOL, pot meet kettle.
What about [psychology ] false sensationalism ?
Since Eisenhower , Russia and the US have been playing this very same game , So why doesn't someone tell us why we all of a sudden need to go to war with Putin .
It is still a left wing Boogeyman response . Remember we all got along without facebook before Facebook !
Promisen, I think you need to read a little more about the involvement of the Russians. Even Mueller has repeated more than once that there is no proof that one vote was changed by their efforts. They ran some ads on Facebook and Twitter, less than $30,000 worth of ads. I don't think it influenced anyone and can't be labeled as "massive."
Readmikenow: Again you say, "I don't think." Again it is only your opinion. Why don't you take the time to do the research.
It was Rosenstien who said the 12 high ranking Russian officers from the GRU who are being indicted for hacking into our computers to try influence the election by releasing and stealing documents of the DNC, not $30,000 to buy votes. They are a foreign actors hacking into our servers. It doesn't matter whether they changed the outcome of the election or not. They are our enemies.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/rea … terference
Of course that is your opinion, right promisem?
That he got help from the Russians is a fact. The part about lawfully elected is just rhetoric for the sake of debate.
Is something wrong with having an opinion?Nope promisem, no problem with opinions, they are what this forum is all about. But when those opinions are touted as fact, then the interesting stuff happens.
I won't disagree that it is possible some voter's minds or opinions may have been influenced by these highlighted Russian efforts. and with that I also can't disagree that that maybe be described as "help" from the Russians.
But, for me, the jury is still out as to whether Pres. Trump benefited from any other type of Russian activities.
Kudos for the "rhetoric" explanation. That works for me, and, steers around the "... touted as fact..." pothole. :-)
GAThanks for the kudos, GA. I hope you feel the same about HP posters on the far right who tout their own "facts".
Wellll... relative to the topic of your post .... and, not including the "far Right" posts that claim that no proof has been found showing collusion ... (which I agree with)
... then I would say I haven't seen too many far Right posts even claiming to be "facts." Most just seem to be rebutting Leftist's facts.
GAAh, a revealing reply. The left is usually wrong and the right is usually right. That purple looks awfully red.
The far right posts consistently claim there is no interference. Even on this thread.
I suggest your own facts smell much more like opinions. At least I can differentiate mine.Slow down promisem. Read what I actually wrote. It wasn't, (or at least wasn't intended to be), what you took it to be.
There was no intention to say or imply the Left is usually wrong and the Right is usually right. You asked about my thoughts on the posters in this forum, and that was the group my comment applied to.
It is my opinion that of the posters here, it is predominately the left-leaning ones that declare their opinions as facts - backed-up with biased and spun links, or, very iffy links that the poster spins to represent as facts, and that was the intended point of my response.
Go back and look for yourself. Which faction most presents opinion as fact, and which most presents opinion and rebuttal. (although you subsequently qualified your statement, look at your own post that I initially replied to)
A look at, [EDIT ADDED], who I think represent the extremes of both sides might easily illustrate my point. Consider Jake and ahorseback; whose posts most frequently claim "facts" and who most frequently comprises statements that can only be understood as rebuttal opinions? Who most uses the direct statement of "fact" relative to their comment?
You are right, the Right-leaning posters here are the ones most frequently "claiming" there was no interference, but the key word is claim', I don't recall too many that have claimed it as fact.
With the exception of a point I previously made:
"I won't disagree that it is possible some voter's minds or opinions may have been influenced by these highlighted Russian efforts. and with that I also can't disagree that 'that' may be be described as "help" from the Russians.
But, for me, the jury is still out as to whether Pres. Trump benefited from any other type of Russian activities.'
https://hubpages.com/politics/forum/339 … ost4017251
... I don't know of any "facts" that prove that interference actually changed any votes. Do you?
If after this explanation you still feel my Purple is really a disguised Red, then I am at a loss and can only disagree.
But, your 'smeller' is working great, almost all of my posts here are intended to be opinions. I make an effort to always qualify my comments with 'I think'. When I do present "facts," (links, etc.), it is usually to support, or explain something I have stated - as my opinion. Just like my responses to you in this thread; all have been presented as opinion, not one single fact declared.
ps. as for your "differentiation..." it usually only happens after your "facts" have been challenged. ;-)
GAI think the main problem is that we have lost so much trust in our government to be honest and forth coming that it is difficult to believe 'facts' they provide. Our two party system has shown,time and again, that each will lie,cheat, steal and use whatever resources they have at their disposal to hide the truth or muddy the waters to such an extent that it cannot be easily found.
Both presidential campaigns, in my opinion, have some explaining to do. But, if Trump was aware of collusion I do believe we'd have some evidence by now. If Russia swayed our election, I think we'd have evidence by now. This is, in my opinion, a topic the Democratic party will not let rest because keeping it alive will serve their purpose in the next election.All day long news on all stations are declaring Trump knew that Putin interfered in our election when he was still president/elect. Why aren't we working on our tech systems to insure this doesn't happen again?
If someone took a poll asking how many people used Facebook to vet a political candidate , there would turn out to be about 27 people and they voted for 14 for Hillary and 13 for Sanders . Trump got O .
No one wants to admit FB made, or even influenced, a voting decision for them. The poll would be flawed straight out of the gate. There's no need for a poll anyway as you just told us the results without needing one.
Trump in his own words says in the Art of the Deal, "I use truthful hyperbole to make my points." In my estimation, he incorporates minimization, maximization, and just plain a*s lying to confuse, hypnotize, mesmerize, and confuse his listeners. He is a master used car salesmen and flim/flam artist.
That works just great when you are dealing one-on-one and selling property. The problem is, he is on the world stage and is dealing with many entities, like tariffs, NAFTA, NATO, Brexit, and many other entities at the same time. They are like jello, you touch one and they all jiggle. I don't think he realizes, he is not selling used cars and that his negotiating model doesn't work on the world stage.
There is an element of first floor leftist intelligence that believes we have to switch to popular voting to elect our president . It can be explained by democratic party's lack of intellectual depth that has shown in the inept and callous failures of their own party in the last ten years or actually longer .
Hillary thought she'd be easily elected by campaigning in primarily liberal run large cities . She desperately wanted that popular vote while deliberately ignoring rural America and so rural issues and values . And that is the same mentality lacking depth so involved in leftist media bias , party immaturity and the opinions of those from the left here.Readmikenow,
I have read the Constitution and understand how the Electoral Vote was instituted to protect from "the tyranny of the majority."
The broader point I was making is why does Trump keep getting back to how the 3,000 more popular votes are faked, when it's a proven fact there is little to no voted fraud in this country? Plus he knows he had much help from the fake media Russian hacks and what they said online. People I know actually believed Hillary was running a sex ring out of a pizza parlor (this made me reconsider trimming down my list of acquaintances).
Trump seems to harbor a fear that these factors will make him "lose" the election in some way, because he keeps bringing up her emails, even though his whole WH are using their personal servers and cell phones. He really is afraid his Presidency will be seen as not legitimate if and when we find how much Russian interference there was. Hillary can't come back, so why does he feel so threatened that he has to keep harping on Hillary, Wasserman, Donna Brazile? Why isn't he getting tech teams to look into the hacking to make sure this never happens again, now instead of pretending it happens all the time and other countries hack us too? I just heard this crazed idea on Fox a little earlier this evening.Okay, you shifted from the Electoral College to President Donald Trump.
I can't speak for President Donald Trump. I believe Hillary should be in jail. I also believe she would be there should it not have been for a very corrupt FBI and Justice Department. That's the rub. Any other citizen would have been in jail should they do what Hillary has done. Her campaign should be investigated for collusion. I won't go to the trouble of getting links, quotes, etc. Hillary may go down in history as one of the most corrupt politicians in the history of the United. States. I've never gotten past her and Obama telling the bold faced lie of Benghazi being caused by a YouTube video. They said this to the United Nations as well as the American people. So, I understand bringing up Hillary. She has done things far, far, far worse than President Donald Trump and most other politicians.Readmikenow: I'm glad you use words like "I believe, may go down, and I also believe" because that shows what you are saying is mainly your own opinion. Why is it that Michael Flynn, the guy who was screaming to lock up Hillary may be locked up for lying to the FBI? You see I take the time to do the research, not my opinion. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 … ry-clintonMichael Flynn was targeted because he was screaming to lock up Hillary, and they got him and others willing to work with Trump on technicalities.
He 'lied' about speaking to a Russian... which has only become an issue since Trump has become elected, and only for those who tried to work with Trump.
That is really what Flynn got slammed for, he talked to a Russian official and then denied that he did, I'm not sure in what context he was asked, or what he denied, but that essentially sums up the wrongdoing of his actions... not that he talked to a Russian official, but that he denied that he did so. Semantics, biased persecution.
This was part of an obvious planned push to destabilize and perhaps invalidate Trump's Administration right out of the gate, turn the calls of corruption and collusion from the ones who DID do it (Clinton and her cohort supporters) to the incoming Administration.
Actually this was incredibly bold and brilliant (because they pulled it off, not so much as to the smoothness of its execution), those most likely to push (IE - Flynn as National Security Advisor, Jeff Sessions as AG) or support Trump were neutralized right at the outset.
Leaving Trump, who had no experience dealing with the machinations of D.C. and no experience forming a Administration to run a government handicapped and relying upon Washington insiders who had no real loyalty to him, or his agendas.
Its a testament to the intelligence and awareness of the American people that Trump has gotten this far along without being removed from office, one way or the other. Despite years of the media and politicians in Congress speaking out against Trump, half the country still supports him (according to the media's own polls) or his Presidency and they do not believe he should be removed. that's impressive, and shows that no amount of propaganda even if blasted 24x7 for years, can fool the majority of the people.
People see the hypocrisy of it all Hillary, she met with Russians plenty of times, Bill went there to get paid to give speeches. What about Chuck Schumer and his ties to the Russians? Why is it that it is OK for Dems to have all sorts of meetings and business arrangements with Russians... but my goodness, should someone working with Trump ever talk to them, in any way, its collusion I tell you.
The majority of people aren't stupid enough to fall for it.If a Republican asks for Russian dressing for his salad in a restaurant, he better watch out! Next he'll be hauled in for questioning.... must be colluding!
Mr. Burgess, Brilliant response. I think it is spot on.
Thank you sir, I do appreciate the dialogue we have had here.
I want to say, I hope the best for all in Ukraine, and hope those you know there remain well. It is a tragedy the country is suffering through this violent stage, and I do not deny that there is wrong on both sides.
My efforts were merely an attempt to point out who facilitated it to go so violently wrong, who 'poked the bear' deliberately in an effort to get the type of response from Russia which did come.
Hillary didn't do many of the things she was accused of. The Benghazi investigation went on for three and a half years, and now Trey Gowdy is threatening Mueller to "Hurry the Hell up' with the investigation into Russian interference.
Hillary asked for more money and security in Benghazi and was denied it. I guess you believe she had the pedophile ring out of the pizza parlor too? She spent her life working for women and children's causes, tried hard to get a good health care system, and has made many accomplishments. Just because you don't like her is no reason to believe all the lies.
I live about 50 miles from Trump's stomping grounds. He was once highly respected as a good businessman, until he and his Father refused to rent or sell properties to people of color. He had high profile affairs with women during all three of his marriages. He ruined Atlantic City with his over the top casinos, which sit on the sea's landscape like a ghost town. The reason he had so much animosity to Jeb Bush is because when Jeb was Governor of FL, he wouldn't let Trump put more failed casinos there.
He started all the misdirection about taking a knee during the National Anthem because he has tried to buy numerous teams and always gets outbid. He's an overgrown child who never forgets a grudge. It is known he has ties to the American and Russian mobs and that American banks wouldn't lend him money as he didn't pay his bills.
The charade he puts on about family is ludicrous. Ivana often said he ignored all his children until they graduated college. Yet on Inauguration night we had to watch the farce as the whole happy family danced together on the stage. He ignores Barron. Melania won't even let her touch her in public, she swats his hand away. She was an illegal immigrant he pulled strings to get into the country. Then he brought in her parents, gee, isn't that chain migration? I still have a soft spot for Melania though. She never wanted to be part of the White House.
This man is vile and you will all walk into Hell with him.I believe when compared against Hillary Clinton, Trump shines as a true patriot. You can't deny Hillary and Obama went on nationals television and blamed Benghazi on a YouTube video. A blatant lie. Then there is Hillary's husband. When you use the word vile, I think it applies to Hillary and her husband. I believe many Democrats will walk with both of them right into hell.
Trump is a patriot: "I love the poorly educated." Walk into hell? Huh. Sounds a lot like Taliban like propaganda. That's just crazy. Trump is tearing the country apart, and when he gets his,I'm gonna come here and say I told you so, and all the pro-Trump apologists will still say, but but Hillary. But but Deep State.. .
He said he could shoot somebody in public without losing supporters and he was right about that. They will justify anything to satisfy their orange god. Screw the red, white and blue along the way. I'm done with traitors.
How do you know "his whole WH are using their personal servers and cell phones" for government business? This sounds like made up "facts" that have zero basis in reality.
Wilderness: I wish you people would do the research, instead of using conjecture.
http://thehill.com/homenews/administrat … hite-houseThere is one thing in place that was not in place during the Obama administration,
"as long as they forward government-related messages to their official work account in order to preserve the conversations so they can later be made available to the public or accessed by oversight groups."
So, this is a BIG difference. This is from the article provided.
I've heard it and read it over and over again. I won't argue with you Dan, because you refuse to face the truth about this awful man. I meant to type they are using their personal cell phones in the WH, something hypocrites crucified Hillary over.
You're right - when it becomes "Well, I heard it over and over on the web so it must be true" it's a "truth" I'm not much interested in.
Carry on.I didn't hear about Trump's reputation prior to his Presidency from the web. I've lived in Northern NJ all my life and am a frequent visitor to NYC. I learned of these facts about him from newspapers, reporters I know from when I was involved in local politics, and yes, word of mouth from others who know Trump. He's been on the scene near me all my life.
There's no reason to be degrading and insulting because you don't like the truth.None of which has anything at all to do with the statement that "his whole WH are using their personal servers and cell phones". That IS what I asked about, not your opinion of his long past business dealings, his ethics or morals.
Just how you knew that everyone in the WH is using personal servers and cell phones. Because that sounds very much like a made up fact without a trace of truth in it. I flat out do not believe that everyone in the WH has a personal server there, for instance.I meant to type personal cell phones. You still crucify Hillary over that. Always the double standard for Rs, right.
In this (and in anything when he drones on) Trump is his own enemy, he is not a polished orator and obviously isn't intent on improving in this category.
That said, I would imagine he is focused on it because for two years he has been faced with the media questioning him about it daily, talking about it daily, and with ongoing investigations being run by the very people who may have colluded to derail his campaign, or even frame him with falsehoods. Mueller, Rosenstein, these are people who long had relations with SoS Clinton and did plenty on her behalf, and they now control the direction of investigations (or cover ups) in all these affairs.
It would be impossible for such efforts not to get under the skin, to some degree, after a couple years.
How was he not properly elected? The popular vote, as you know, makes zero difference in our system, thanks to the genius of the founders. Besides, if you give the green party votes all to Hillary, since they'd no doubt have sided with her if they didn't have the option of the Green Party, and give the Libertarians to Trump, since they are mostly ultra-conservatives, Trump would run away with it. In other words, more Americans voted conservative in the 2016 election than liberal. Not that it matters for electoral purposes, but just to illustrate that the majority of the country was NOT in the Hillary camp.
I already replied to this. Try reading. I didn't say he wasn't elected. It's his FEAR of THINKING HE WASN'T legally elected that I find troubling. He still has to go on and on about how it was the biggest electoral vote in history, when it is one of the smaller ones--but still a win. I know that Hillary was not a popular candidate, and because of Bernie Sanders not winning the Primary, Millennials were angry and either didn't vote or voted for Jill Stein, who had ties to Russia. Why does Russia keep coming up and why have so many people from there been indicted?
"Trump was not properly elected, he didn't win the popular vote, that's why he has to keep harping on Hillary and her emails." That's what you said first, and that's what I was replying to. I don't think it's necessary to be sarcastic to one another, do you? Most of the people who've been indicted have nothing to do with Russia, they found other dirt on them totally unrelated to Trump. If the FBI wanted to find something to charge you and I with, they could do it. And if they couldn't, they could threaten our families until we agreed to cop to something we didn't even do. That's how they operate. So I wouldn't put too much store in the indictments of Americans (not the Russians) through the Moeller investigation. The Russians, yes, they were involved in attempts to influence voters. There is no evidence that they were successful. I agree that Trump doesn't want to talk about the Russian meddling because he thinks it diminishes his victory, and that is due to his own ego. I agree that isn't an attractive or helpful characteristic for a president, but it's a common one. It's the same reason Obama wanted the Benghazi travesty covered up, didn't want it to reflect badly on him and his administration. Obama has just as big an ego as Donald Trump, he just isn't brash and openly bragging like Trump so it's not as obvious. Trump's a different animal, he's not a politician like Obama, who was schooled all of his adult life in image and appearance for political reasons. Personally, I don't care for several personal characteristics of Donald Trump, which is why I didn't vote for him in the primaries. Still, I get down on my knees daily and thank God we don't have a President Hillary. With all of his character flaws, his positive attributes have, so far, carried him through to be overall a very effective president. Obama's faults, though less obvious to the casual observer, are more distasteful to me, by far. Not to mention he was an extremely ineffective leader, probably among the five worst presidents in American history. My opinion, but I can back it up.
- ahorsebackposted 6 years ago0
Russian election interference ?
If all that this entire "collusion " subject can do is diss a sitting president for actually attaining the White House because of supposed Facebook Adds , then why don't you actually blame Facebook and Zuckerberg ?ahorseback: I do blame facebook and Zuckerberg, and Steve Bannon, and Alexander Nix and Robert Mercer. Read my article on Cambridge Analytica and you will understand why I mentioned these people.
Of course! Zuckerberg should have known, by instinct perhaps, what it has taken the might and resources of the US government to uncover and prevented a will hidden foreign fake entity from posting on Facebook.
Then we would have Clinton for President for sure, right?Wilderness: At the risk of violating hub page rules. Here is the link to my Cambridge Analytica article.
https://owlcation.com/social-sciences/C … s-it-goingThat's what I said, isn't it? That Zuckerberg should have known by instinct that a hidden foreign entity was using his platform?
This type of thing is hardly new - stores have been a modified version for decades to influence patrons to buy what the store wants them to buy. The only difference with the "interference" in our election is the assumption (though the FBI does not agree) that it was effective. And, of course, that the psychology was applied to politics rather than economics, and in a very crude manner.
To tell the truth, I'm not convinced that the goal of the Russians was influencing the election; there were comments long ago that it appeared more to be an effort to divide the population through hate speech and faux news, and if true that effort has certainly been a massive success. We see it continuing long after the election, with half the nation interested in nothing but dividing the nation further and in tearing down whatever their elected president tries to do. From the courts to congress to the man in the street the effort continues and grows. And we sit back whining that Russians tried to do what we do every time there is an election anywhere in the world while ignoring the much greater event that is going on."To tell the truth, I'm not convinced that the goal of the Russians was influencing the election; there were comments long ago that it appeared more to be an effort to divide the population through hate speech and faux news, and if true that effort has certainly been a massive success."
What better way to divide a nation than to influence its elections and help someone get elected who seems to go out of his way to divide that same nation? He attacks Americans and American institutions on a daily basis, but we expect people to not mimic our "strong" leader? Isn't it possible that the goals are compatible?
"And we sit back whining that Russians tried to do what we do every time there is an election anywhere in the world..."
I don't care what we do overseas, we must defend our nation. I'm American, and I like America, not Russia. It should be the duty of any patriot to fight against threats to our democracy as opposed to placate and downplay them. How is downplaying Russian involvement an "America First" stance in any way?
- ahorsebackposted 6 years ago0
No one in this forum is a diplomat , No one here knows how Trump or his people are treating this behind closed doors where most diplomacy[what 90%] actually and necessarily happens . Other than an admittedly obstructive news media , ---their is still a government in the US not run by news media . And thank God ,not by Obama and Hillary's incredibly abysmal record of poor foriegn and even Russian diplomacy !
- ahorsebackposted 6 years ago0
Kind of makes us wonder who else Donna Brasile passed the questions to besides Hillary , CNN , the DNC etc. Who really wonders at this point why Russia owned the entire DNC election process ?
E mails and all !
Still wondering ......................Gees ! - ahorsebackposted 6 years ago0
Something to consider , Obama never once concerned himself with considering the opposing party ideology in manifesting any of his domestic policies and foreign diplomatic decisions ,
Think about that .
Now , the left wants to control and critique how Trump actually engages in his foreign policy decisions , And using the bias of their news media to control that process ?
- ahorsebackposted 6 years ago0
This is why Trump harps on Hillary , Obama , Wasserman Schultz, Jarret , because most of the fault of the Russian interest in our 2016 election , Most of the direct availability and access BY Russians to our net-election systems , our government E-mails , our political party access, was marketed TO them BY incompetence of the above parties !
Simplified , If the Toys R Us store doors are left unlocked at the mall , Who gets the blame for theft of Beanie -Babies in the night ? - ahorsebackposted 6 years ago0
Here's a serious question or two . If admittedly , Russia attempted to influence Facebook people about who to vote for in the U.S election and Facebook is a "social media " of a world class entity then just how many US voters were influenced ,one and two , if Facebook is a world class "social media "entity , IS it then illegal for Russia to have done so to begin with ?
Can't anyone advertise on F-B?
Too many people are looking for some obvious excuses to blame something , someone other than the poor performance of the DNC, the Clintons and the news media for the most poorly performed democratic election in US history . - ahorsebackposted 6 years ago0
Like Flynn ;
The following people lying about Russians should be in trouble.
-Obama
-Bill Clinton
-Hillary
-Schumer
-Pelosi
-Sanders *
-Jill Stein *
-Feinstein
-Reid
-Maxine Waters
*Is in Trouble а ты говоришь по русски? Вы звучите как русский. I know Ukraine is much happier without Russian influence. If Russia was to go back across the boarder with Ukraine tomorrow, the separatists would stop fighting shortly after that time. Are you familiar with the terms of the Minsk Agreement? Russia has not followed through with what they agreed. This is typical for Russia. Russians were worse than Americans with getting involved with Ukrainian affairs. There was no reason for Russia to invade except to again try and gain control of the Ukraine after forcing their fake president out of office. Many Ukrainians believe Russia is the problem, and NOT the United States. I don't know exactly what you want, but here is a pretty good article from the Atlantic with the name of the capital misspelled. https://www.theatlantic.com/internation … ne/565235/
no I am not Russian, I once had a Ukrainian girlfriend who corrected me on the difference between Russia and Ukraine, despite the fact that she spoke Russian she had a healthy patriotism for her Ukrainian heritage and its distinction from Russia.
She would most likely be vehemently against the position I am taking in this debate.
However, it doesn't change that America's State Department and CIA efforts aided in the instability and overthrow of Ukraine, installing its own temporary puppet regime. This is fact. This led to the current conflict.
I believe Ukraine would have eventually found its way to a better relationship with 'the west' without internal conflict and without Russia feeling threatened... given time... as nations like Latvia and Estonia have done who are also on Russia's border.
How it occurred was not the right way, or the right time.
A simplified explanation of the matter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hlvX9-PkmcKen Burgess, Thank you for providing that video. Do you speak with anyone in Ukraine? I can tell you, the dislike for Russia and all things Russian is intense. Ukraine's Orthodox church is breaking off ties with Russia. Names of streets in most cities that were in Russian have been changed to Ukrainian. In schools, Russian was taught as long as Ukrainian. They recently passed a law that schools must teach 80 percent in Ukrainian and only 20 percent in Russian. Schools that refuse have funding taken away and the administrators and teachers can be replaced. A large number of Russian language radio stations and television stations have been taken off the air. The few that remain have to also provide a percentage of their broadcasts in Ukrainian. Most Ukrainians were forced to learn Russian. In the small town were my family comes from, if you speak Russian in a store, they will ask you to leave and not come back. There is a strong national pride in Ukraine right now.
Ukrainians know its military could retake control in the east in a short time if Russia would go back across its boarder. The war would be over. I and many Ukrainians believe it has lasted this long because of Russia. Too many lives have been lost and Russia has done too many things for the people of Ukraine to ever want to be part of it again.
Are you familiar with "holodomor?"
There is a good documentary about what happened in the Ukraine called " 'Breaking Point: The War for Democracy in Ukraine." It is very good and enables you to see what the Ukrainian people have experienced. Here is a preview of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15KbznNoFSII am not as close to the situation as you are, and admit I do not follow the matter (or any geopolitical matters) that closely these days. However, I would suspect that when you make statements on what Ukraine wants, we are discussing what those in the Western part of Ukraine want (the larger portion) compared to what those in the Eastern portions want that Russia now supports.
I am not overly familiar, but I can imagine since those Eastern portions predominantly speak Russian, and have at times been part of Russia, they therefore likely have stronger ties to Russia, perhaps separating the two halves permanently would be a better solution.
Crimea's parliament voted to join Russia, perhaps instead of going to war Ukraine should have allowed it to leave. You have an escalation of war that will not stop so long as Putin is in power and the 'West' is determined not just to bring Ukraine into its fold, but Russia to heel as well.
Unfortunately whether you recognize it or not, Ukraine is just one more pawn in the effort to check-mate Russia. I can't say I am overly sympathetic to their plight, as Ukraine seems unwilling to let those eastern provinces which remain loyal to Russia separate.
It seems the majority in the Western half want their freedom from Russia, but are unwilling to recognize the desire of those in the East to remain close to Russia and have their own independence.
The West paints Russia as the bad guy, as your video attests, but of course that all depends on perspective... I have to consider the very real possibility that plenty in Crimea would be glad to have the conflict over and have their independence recognized.
I am not one to see one side (that presented by western media) of the story and think its fully on the up-and-up, I recognize that both sides have bias, and use lies and deception to manipulate the people. In fact, I know news reports can be as far from the truth as possible more often than not, when it comes to foreign events and conflicts.
Holodomor was in the 30s, nearing 90 years ago, Russia has a dark history, many countries have dark histories where great crimes against humanity were committed. That is a whole other topic, and not one I partake in, what happened a hundred (or two hundred or three hundred) years ago that no one alive today is responsible for is not something I want to lend credibility to in a discussion where we are debating current events.I appreciate your response. The situation in the Ukraine is complicated. I'm sure you know the vote in Crimea is not recognized as legitimate by most countries. Voting blocks in Crimea were told not to show up because the Russian soldiers knew how they would vote. It was a joke. The separatists in the east are losing their support from Russia. The Ukraine won't support them, and they can't support themselves. I think their independence is like letting Texas to remain its own country. It could not have been a success. Holodomor is as alive in the minds of many Ukrainians as the Civil War is to many people here in the United States. I agree, it is a separate topic.
Hello Readmikenow, this is an interesting exchange.
What do you think about this The Guardian 2014 article?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr … v-conflict
I ask because this topic has drawn my interest.
GAGA Anderson, thank you for providing the article. It is an old article written in 2014, four years ago. Many things have changed since then. The article from the Atlantic above is close to how things are right now in Ukraine. I don't see things changing without the U.S. putting pressure on Putin.
Thanks for checking it out Readmikenow. I knew the article was dated, but I was more interested in the charges it contained.
Ken's comment, and your reply, caught my interest. The linked article seemed to support Ken's comment -- but, there were other links that didn't, so the curiosity bug bit me.
I was interested in your perception concerning the charge that the coup was US/EU manufactured because the current, (at the time), Ukraine government wouldn't sign a NATO/Western Alliance agreement.
And also what are your thoughts that the new Ukraine government was picked and placed by US efforts? Was the coup popularly supported? Was the new government welcomed by the Ukrainian people?
I will continue my own search concerning these questions, but you appear to have a personal connection to the topic that I think would be informative.
GAI don't believe the US/EU manufactured the coup. I could be wrong. I believe it was based the generations old desire of Ukrainian people to be completely free from Russia. I think an understanding of the history between Russia and the Ukraine must be understood first. Armed conflicts between the two people have been occurring since the 1700s. Then there is the genocide of the Ukrainian people known as Holodomor. Stalin systematically starved between 7 and 10 million Ukrainians. Europe and the U.S. ignored this because Stalin was needed to defeat Nazi Germany. Google it. The new government was initially very welcomed by the Ukrainian people. Now, Petro Poroshenko is loved by some and despised like President Trump by others. There is a presidential election scheduled for the Ukraine in 2019, so we'll see. I can say where my friends and family live, they are so glad to be out from under Russian control and don't care how it happened. Others disagree. Everyone just wants to find a way to get Russia back across its boarder and the separatists back with the Ukraine. They want the war to be over.
Once more, I ask that you do some research, while I believe you have a lot of information regarding sentiments and occurrences in the Ukraine, I don't see that you have much depth of understanding as to why they happened, or who orchestrated them:
In 2008, Viktor Pinchuk, who made a fortune in the pipe-building business, pledged a five-year, $29-million commitment to the Clinton Global Initiative, a program that works to train future Ukrainian leaders “to modernize Ukraine.” The Wall Street Journal revealed.
Between 2009 and 2013, the very period when Hillary Clinton was serving as US secretary of state, the Clinton Foundation appears to have received at least $8.6 million from the Victor Pinchuk Foundation.
That places Ukraine as the leading contributor among foreign donators to the Clinton Foundation.
The Pinchuk foundation said its donations to the Clinton-family organization were designed to make Ukraine “a successful, free, modern country based on European values. ”It went on to remark that if Pinchuk was hoping to lobby the US State Department about Ukraine, “this cannot be seen as anything but a good thing,” WSJ quoted it as saying.
------
If the US State Department's Victoria Nuland had not said "&^#%$ the EU," few outsiders at the time would have heard of Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt, the man on the other end of her famously bugged telephone call. But now Washington's man in Kiev is gaining fame as the face of the CIA-style "destabilization campaign" that brought down Ukraine's legitimately elected President Viktor Yanukovych.
The State Department controled the prime funding sources for non-military intervention, including the controversial National Endowment for Democracy (NED), which Washington created to fund covert and clandestine action after Ramparts magazine and others exposed how the CIA channeled money through private foundations, including the Ford Foundation. State also controls the far-better-funded Agency for International Development (USAID), along with a growing network of front groups, cut-outs, and private contractors. State coordinates with like-minded governments and their parallel institutions, mostly in Canada and Western Europe. State's "democracy bureaucracy" oversees nominally private but largely government funded groups like Freedom House. And through Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria Nuland, State had Geoff Pyatt coordinate the coup in Kiev.
The CIA, NSA, and Pentagon likely provided their specialized services, while some of the private contractors those that excel in shadowy skill sets to destabilize Ukraine and do the hands-on dirty work.
Harder for some people to grasp, Ambassador Pyatt and his team did not create the foreign policy, which was only minimally about overthrowing Ukraine's duly elected government to "promote democracy." Ever since Bill Clinton sat in the Oval Office, Washington and its European allies have worked openly and covertly to extend NATO to the Russian border and Black Sea Fleet, provoking a badly wounded Russian bear. They have also worked to bring Ukraine and its Eastern European neighbors into the economy of the West, isolating the Russians rather than trying to bring them into the fold. Except for sporadic resets, anti-Russian has become the new anti-Soviet, and "strategic containment" has been the wonky word for encircling Russia with our military and economic power.
You have to understand, that for years American operatives worked to shape public sentiment, change discussion and political direction within Ukraine. What you believe to be long held beliefs and harsh resentment for Russia, are emotions and beliefs that have been fueled and flamed by outside sources. Were they always there? Perhaps. Have they been stoked to ten times what they had been a decade ago? You can bet your life on it.
This is what we do, there is no country on earth better at it than the U.S., which is why the concept of Russia interfering with our elections is laughable, but that is a whole other matter, the point is, the Ukraine did not control its destiny, and still does not... it is doing exactly what we want it to do, and the lives you are losing are for our political interests and financial wellbeing, not your own. I realize no matter how many times I tell you this, you won't see it, but the Ukraine would have found a better future, eventually, without the interference of the Clintons and the CIA.
--------
Clinton had also pushed hard for the Libya intervention in the spring and summer of 2011, which Putin was appalled by, seeing it as unwarranted interference in an ally nation’s sovereignty. After she stepped down as secretary of state, she made a well-publicized visit to Yalta in 2013, when it was still part of Ukraine to support Ukraine’s signing of an agreement with the European Union.Mr. Burgess, I thank you for that detailed analysis of the situation. I have nothing to say what you have stated is wrong. All I know is the feeling of Ukrainians I know in the Ukraine. I was recently sent a video of soldiers returning to the town where my grandfather was born. The soldiers in the front of each group carried pictures of those who had died in their recent deployment to the east. Drummers played a single beat as the soldiers marched. People lined the streets and prayed as the soldiers marched through the street. It was very powerful. I know the parents of some people who were in uniform. There is a saying in the town, it goes, "You can't walk backwards down life's road." Okay, what happened has happened. What can be done to get the Russians back across their boarder so the Ukrainian army can finish their work and reunite the east? That is where my mind is at with the Ukraine. Then the war would be over. I don't see how Russia could be benefiting from this war. Do you?
I don't see how Russia benefits from any of this. As I have tried to explain, they are not the true instigators of this conflict, they are now trying to protect their borders, their naval stations, and those in Crimea and the two Eastern Provinces with Russian ties/language who would be persecuted by Ukraine should Ukraine ever regain control.
Russia is RESPONDING to the threat, which is not Ukraine gaining freedom or trading with 'the West' but the NATO Alliance, their tanks, missiles, jets, being a stone throw away from Moscow.
Its very simple: No Russia … no NATO.
American corporations like Boeing, Lockheed, etc. SEE: https://www.militaryindustrialcomplex.com/companies.asp
They make a lot of money from selling to Poland, Latvia, etc. all those tanks, fighters, and Missiles they need to protect themselves from those evil Russians.
No Russia threat …. No need for NATO.
Furthermore, Russia has the largest Oil and Natural Gas reserves in the world. And there are many companies BP, ExxonMobil, etc. that want direct access to those resources, which Putin has protected or nationalized.
Read this article I wrote a couple years back, it will tell you more on that:
https://hubpages.com/politics/Why-Ameri … ith-RussiaMr. Burgess, I believe you are a Muscovite. Your approach to this topic is that of a person who is Russian or has connections to Russia. I don't see a lot of objectivity, but a Russian viewpoint. It's okay, Muscovites are all over social media. How you reacted to me bringing up Holodomor as well as how you responded to asking you a question in Russian has given you away. It has been good discussing things with you. The difference between the two of us is I do not hide my support for the Ukraine and Ukrainian people.
Maybe you are not only a Muscovite but a Valenki who should go to the Ukrainian separatist territory and get a Kolorady. Do you already have one? I would not be surprised if you said yes. I'm positive you know what I'm talking about
- Well that is just wonderful, very interesting.
That is a very similar response I could get from a Liberal Progressive (aka Democrat) when bringing up facts that support a position. Or a Establishment Republican who puts party politics above all else.
Only the terms I would be called instead of 'Muscovite' or 'Valenki' would be 'racist' or 'sexist pig' or 'libtard' something along the lines.
My friend, I see the world for what it is, and those in it who pull strings to make events happen, more clearly than most.
It is unfortunate, my experiences combined with reviewing information and timelines to connect-the-dots makes discussing things with those who can't be objective very difficult at times.
When discussing things, as soon as people who have firmly set or extremist positions on matters have to contend with facts that challenge their position, rather than consider those facts, they just like to label the person as the 'enemy', whatever label that may be.
And by doing so, they can dismiss anything the person presents as biased or lies, and therefore not contend with those facts.I disagree. This is a response you get when your answers lacks objectivity and only spews forth Russian propaganda. Do you have any idea of the horrible things Russians have done to Ukrainians since this war started? Of course, your cold calculated response would be only based facts you find that will show how Russia views things. There is no reason for Russia to not go back across its boarder. Do you know of the Minsk Agreement? Russians could start by honoring this agreement. They have not. They break it and then Ukraine has to break it to defend itself. Ukraine will defend itself against Russia. Their actions are nothing more than the old leaders of the Soviet Union wanting to have back their control in the region. Those days are over and that is why they refuse to go back across the boarder. That is why they annexed Crimea. They can't accept countries on their boarder being free of them. There is such a disconnect between Russians and Ukrainians. Russians do not understand why Ukrainians want Russia out of their country. They will tell Ukrainians they are better off with Russia. Ukrainians tell them they are now and always have been better off being free of Russia. There is a saying in Ukraine right now, this translation is close. It goes "I would rather die a free dog than life my life as a Russian pet."
What you seem to fail to realize, or refuse to admit, is that you are far from objective in this matter.
As you have stated, you have relatives in the Ukraine, you despise Russia, you lay the blame for all that has transpired on them.
I have tried to present facts to you that show Ukraine has been manipulated, their politics co-opted, and that Ukraine, like Syria, is a hot-spot for 'the West's' efforts to face off against Russia/Putin.
I have tried to explain why this is ongoing, and given links to offer further information if you wish to pursue it.
And I have tried to summarize to the simplest degree I am able, so as not to write a book about the matter. It is a complex yet simple matter that is in essence all about money, power and resources.
If America was getting along just dandy with Russia:
Why would Europe need NATO?
Why would NATO nations pay billions for tanks, missiles, jets if they did not feel Russia was a threat?
Did Russia invade Syria or Ukraine?
No.
Those nations were allies of Russia, until American State Department and the CIA created and supported efforts to overthrow those government.
That is why there is war in Ukraine and Syria, America (and others in the case of Syria) instigated the overthrow attempts, America supported them.
It is for these reasons things like the Ambassador being killed in Benghazi happened. He was overseeing the transfer of anti-armor and anti-aircraft missiles from Gaddafi's arsenal to Syria via the CIA working in conjunction with the Muslim Brotherhood. Unfortunately for those who died that night, there were other parties who had their own agendas to pursue.
And the big reasons behind these interferences have nothing to do with caring about the freedoms of Ukrainians or Syrians, and everything to do with oil/gas, power, and painting Russia as a threat that everyone else has to pay up billions to the 'American Military Complex' for protection.
Its a power struggle, Russia is trying to maintain what power it has, trying to rebuild its influence, and the 'West' wants it to be a submissive controlled lesser state so international corporations can go in there and control the world's largest oil and gas resources (larger than any other nation by far when you include what lies beneath the North Pole region).
There is no middle ground there, Putin wants to control Russia's natural resource wealth and use it for Russia. The international community wants to us them for their interests and profits, and could care less about the Russians.Well, I can always depend on you to provide the Russian viewpoint on things. No, I am not objective when it comes to this matter. I know more about what life is like and what is happening in the Ukraine than you will ever know from being told by the Russians. Russia DID invade the Ukraine. Don't get me started about the many Russian soldiers the Ukraine exchanged for Ukrainian soldiers. Did you know this? Do you know that Ukrainian military can not transport their wounded from the battlefield using a vehicle with a Red Cross on it? This is because the Russians will target this vehicle for destruction. They have killed many wounded Ukrainians this way. Russian natural resources? Don't think most people are so naive that they don't realize Russia will sell them to the highest bidder. Actually, if you've read the news lately, not the Russian news, the United States has the largest oil and gas reserves. This means in time the United States can undercut Russia, and this will harm their economy. So, what is the Russian position on this? Again, Russia needs to go back across it's boarder and respect the Ukraine as a sovereign nation. No amount of Russian propaganda you provide can change that simple fact.
The US pentagon just released 200 Million dollars to Ukrainian resistance , if that doesn't make a few warlords rich what will ?
Readmikenow wrote: Actually, if you've read the news lately, not the Russian news, the United States has the largest oil and gas reserves.
This is blatantly false as can be seen here -
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the … untry.html
If those figures are modified to include the north pole region that Russia claims as its own, Russia has the world's largest Oil + Gas reserves. See Below:
2007 - https://www.livescience.com/4584-russia … e-oil.html
2016 - https://www.forbes.com/sites/timdaiss/2 … -drilling/
This means in time the United States can undercut Russia, and this will harm their economy.
Technically this IS what America has been trying to do for years now, but not because we have the world's largest reserves or anywhere close.
We have been trying to collapse the Russian economic system, so that we can turn it into just another 'banana republic' under the thumb of western/international banking, corporate interests.
And Ukraine is just one of the many efforts to make this occur, just one more pressure point being put on Russia, not because America cares one bit about Ukrainians having 'freedom' or not.
So, what is the Russian position on this? Again, Russia needs to go back across it's boarder and respect the Ukraine as a sovereign nation.
Better chance that Crimea separates and becomes a satellite nation of Russia, than Russia backing out and allowing NATO in, so long as Putin is alive Russia will never back out, it can't (atleast not until its new Naval Bases are built). Its naval interests alone make that an impossibility and this was known long before America supported the 'revolution' to be rid of Russian influence.
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-unveil- … ars-484974
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/sp … ia-crimea/
Because some people need to...
U.S. v. Michael T. Flynn
https://www.justice.gov/file/1015126/download
U.S. vs. Internet Research Agency & co
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents … tment.html
U.S. vs. Hackers
https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/downloadIslandBites,
Thank you for more proof that Trump is undermining our Governmental institutions. He thinks he is above the law, and has in a single minded way done all he can to degrade our long held rules, laws, and traditions. He will be held accountable.
While it's true cable news people are allowed to express opinions, most of the people on them are journalists who are highly educated and respect their professions. They have knowledgeable, studied opinions based on many years of research, numerous degrees, and reporting on American issues. Many Republicans like Steve Schmidt, Malcolm Nance, Nicole Wallace, and even George W. Bush, regularly speak out about how far Trump's lies and indiscretions have gone in his narcissistic way to destroy our NATO alliance and that he has gone out of his way to pal up with authoritarian dictators, and destroy the free press.
It's not about Ds wishing Hillary had won and hasn't been for a long time. The Rs are the haters, who want to separate children from parents at the border, and turn back the clock for over 50 yrs. regarding Civil Rights issues. Plus our Supreme Court is being stacked and our Judges are mostly being chosen from Conservative Organizations who want to take us back to the Civil War. This man must be stopped, and all these indictments will ultimately prove that Trump had been money laundering through his Russian sources for years.
I saw Jacob Sakoroff and Richard Engle on a report about how Trump paid 50 million in cash for his failing golf course in Scotland. No person has cash like that lying around except to be laundered. Large transactions like that are normally done by wire transfer. I worked in banking for many years. And the usual double standards apply to Trump, he's the only President who never was required to show his income tax materials. He can't or he would be caught right there. Apparently Ireland and Scotland have stricter laws regarding returns than we do in the U.S. Plus Trump never gave up any of his business holdings and still makes money off the Presidency from many sources. I don't know what hatred of fairness keeps these people going.Lies, lies and more lies ...........Ho Hum........
Do you really believe Trump paid $50,000,000 in folding green money (or change) for something? That's a stack of $20 bills 1,200 feet high and weighing 2 1/2 tons? Do you think he packed it in in wheelbarrows or backpacks?
Sometimes a little common sense goes a long way.Although grand, gorgeous and one of the world’s top golf courses, Turnberry hasn’t been a reliably profitable business for decades. Starwood Hotels & Resorts, frustrated with the business, sold Turnberry to Leisurecorp, an investment vehicle controlled by Dubai’s royal family, for about $100 million in 2008. Six years later, Leisurecorp sold Turnberry to Trump for about $63 million.
"I paid all cash. I then spent a tremendous amount of money on renovating the hotel and the golf courses," Trump told Reuters in a 2016 interview. "It’s incredible."
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles … f-paradise
Maybe he used $100 bills.
IslandBites: They have no problem saying that Obama paid Iran 400 billion in cash. But in truth, it was 1.7 billion of their own money we were holding and it was in cash of currency from different countries.
I'm beginning to believe, Trump and Putin have some kind of laundering business going on and it isn't in clothes...unless it is with Ivanka.Aw, c'mon, people. You believed that tale with all your heart the first time you heard it. There's no "beginning to believe" here!
Perhaps he did. He could probably get into one of the big earth mover dump trucks that way, and all in one trip. Maybe make a giant briefcase that would fit into the bed of the truck.
I've worked in banking with large amounts of cash. No bank keeps that much cash on the premises in one day or even a week. It would be paid out in increments. Now you are an expert on banking too?
Also, Rs believed Obama paid large sums to Iran for his nuclear arms deals in Tupperware. So your stories are just nuts.
- ahorsebackposted 6 years ago0
For all of the liberal defensiveness and obstruction here in Hubpage forums , in media and in politics , Not one of you can define the Democratic platform for mid -term or 2020 elections , Not one of you can legitimately defend the above two descriptions;
-Defensiveness
-Obstruction
If these are the only two postures liberals in America are capable of
then don't you deserve every impending election loss coming down the tracks ?I'm not sure this is liberals vs conservatives. I'm middle of the road and voted Republican some in the past. The problem is the joke of a "leader" and how some will defend him to no end when something negative is said about him.Trump is not conservative.
I agree it is not liberals versus conservatives.
I have voted 80% Republican in the past and have quite a few personal connections to the party. But country comes first. I'm opposed to Trump because of his character, his ethics and most of his policies.
People who claim this is liberals versus conservatives don't want to admit they made a mistake in voting for Trump.That's good to hear! Many Trump voters I know are political newbies, which is fine, but having not paid much attention to politics much of their lives, they are clearly more susceptible to falling for a candidate, rather than a philosophy and/or real world results.
I do lean liberal these days. but a moderate Republican can get my vote. The problem is, they seem to be so rare.
The "liberal media" does get to me at times with the overly PC attitudes that results in stifling free thought in my opinion. However, no Trump supporter wants to hear about nuances in views. Most of them just label you as a libtard as soon as you say one thing they, or Trump, disagrees with. It's unproductive and anti-American. The extremes on both sides drive our nation apart."The extremes on both sides drive our nation apart." I completely agree with you. I don't see a solution. I have thought about this many times. Do you have any suggestions?
Yeah, that's a rough one. Maybe long term education solutions...those that emphasize the political process and how to vet sources, rather than ideology, would help. Fighting disingenuous "grassroot" campaigns and getting real campaign finance reform may be pieces of the puzzle.
However, many of the problems are social. The pendulum swings so far one way for one group and another for the other, that they can no longer begin to understand one another. This is human nature and I'm not sure Americans can overcome this at this point.
Ultimately, true pride as a people, and a TRULY strong leader that brings us together will be required to hold us together. I'm not sure that many Americans are real patriots anymore. Those from both sides talk a big game but don't hesitate to further the divisions.
I guess we will see how it plays out within in our lifetimes anyway.We are tribal by our very nature. A direct threat against our existence will bring us together as one tribe. WWII brought almost everybody together. Alien attacks from space, would bring all mankind together.
You may be right. But, Putin convinced many that he's not threat...that the threat is the American govt itself. Trump might send Americans to Russia, what the hell. I'm not learning Russian
No Russia, No NATO...
Think about that, what that means.
Why would the Eastern European nations spend billions on American tanks, and Jets, and missiles, if there was no Russian threat?
Why would they need the protection of America?
No Russia, No NATO...
So we force Russia to react, to try and protect its allies and its borders (IE- Syria and Ukraine) and then we point out how bad Russia is, how evil they are for invading and or supporting 'dictators'...
Syria is so much better off now that we intervened there.
Ukraine is so much better off now that we intervened there.
Libya is now a beacon democracy, a shining example for all the world to see, since we intervened there.
Their true crimes?
They saw Russia as an ally, not as a threat.I'd much rather live in the US than in Russia. I don't like that our president plays up to a dictator, no matter if they are evil or not, the guy is a dictator. "Prohibition of homosexual propaganda" culture..screw that.
I'm not learning Russian and I'm not buying what Putin and Trump are selling. Do I think the US does shady things around the world and intervenes where it shouldn't? Yes I do. Do I think Russia does..yes I do.
Even without NATO, Trump and any American leadership, will find ways to spend money on bombs and tanks.The militarized state runs deeper than that...Iran is always a good target.
I helped run writing campaigns for Patriot missile funding, and Russia is not anywhere near the only reason for defense spending. I really don't care if we did force Russia to act.
And honestly, I don't think Trump understands any of it."I really don't care if we did force Russia to act."
"Even without NATO, [we] will find ways to spend money on bombs and tanks. The militarized state runs deeper than that"
I appreciate your honesty, I like straight forward talk over excessive layers of lies and PC speak.
It is a breath of fresh air, to discuss an issue when we can start like that.
If someone tells me: "I don't care if we kill ten million Syrians and Iraqis so long as we control the flow of oil, which keeps prices low and our economy thriving" then I can respect that dialogue, because we aren't pretending these wars are about 'freedom' or 'chemical warfare violations' or whatever excuse the MSM/Gov puts out there.
Also, I see no point in your learning to speak Russian unless you plan on spending time with some Russians. Otherwise why learn it?I'm anti-Trump. That doesn't make me pro everything the government did before he arrived.
I just don't think Trump's the guy to fix anything. While the media often goes along with the government's narrative..not always...it makes no sense to turn things over to a guy who lies, and then lies, and then says it doesn't matter if he lies when he gets caught. Then he screams fake media even when he's recorded saying something. The entire situation with him is ridiculous.
I really think most people, on the left or right side of the spectrum, understand at this point that we are lied to in order to justify wars and put money in the hands of the powers that be.
I'm hoping we aren't forced to spend a lot of time with Russians, considering Trumps affinity for them. But, the statement was mainly meant to be facetious.
My true hope, as far-fetched as it may be, is that moderation will win out. Trump is like the proverbial throwing the baby out with the bath water.
No matter how screwed up the world order is, the underclasses will always get screwed over...it's just a matter of to what extent. Part of that is war. In order to have a chance at gaining ground, we need a level headed individual who has real morals. Who maybe didn't draft dodge and all the sorts of nonsense Trump has been into.
that might be what it will take, pp73, aliens! I'm serious, I believe they're out there and will make themselves known within the next decade or two.... but then that's another thread entirely!
"I do lean liberal these days. but a moderate Republican can get my vote. The problem is, they seem to be so rare. "
The further left you "lean", but less moderate any Republican is going to seem. Perhaps that's why you can't find any? Of course, there's also the problem of the far right (or left, for that matter) having the loudest voices, drowning out (and demonizing) anyone in the center.Of course, there's also the problem of the far right (or left, for that matter) having the loudest voices, drowning out (and demonizing) anyone in the center.
I think you answered your own question here.hard sun,
There is no liberal Republican to be found anymore, we get all these crazy religious fanatics who ignore the fact stated in our Constitution that this is a secular country. If I get more more person who answers a question with, "I'm a Chrisssstian" I will scream. They love to spew the three or four scriptures they know.
I have voted for Rs in the past, but the party has changed.BOTH parties, in my assessment, have become more extreme. Yes, there are fewer Liberal Republicans while there are fewer traditional Liberal & Moderate Democrats. The political parties are more hard-core. The Republican Party has become MORE extreme, starting during the Nixon years & became increasingly right during Reagan. The Democratic Party became more extreme, in my estimation, during the Clinton years & increasingly so under Obama. While the Republican Party has become more reactionary, the Democrat Party has become more leftist in my estimation. I am still a Liberal Democrat in terms of LGBT rights, reproductive choices(pro-choice, pro-birth control & family planning), women's rights, & of course, rights for non-Caucasians(which I am one). However, in terms of social programs, I believe that somehow we have gone a tad bit too far. I believe in EARNING one's way. The Democrat party isn't the party I once knew. They have become radical- I see each day. Both parties are HELLBENT in achieving their respective goals. Sadly, there is a WAR between both political parties & between subcategories of political ideologies. This was predicted 25 years ago in the book GENERATIONS: The History of America's Future, 1584 to 2069 by William Strauss & Neil Howe. Please get the book.
Aside from political discussions, how is your health Jean. Lately, I had shoulder pain & went to the doctor. The shoulder pain is getter progressively better. I refuse to be a pain-ridden old lady. Have a nice night, Jean. Do you believe that two years from now in 2020, it will be the 75th anniversary of the end of World War II. World War II was a calamitous war, what have humanity LEARNED from this war?! When will humanity EVER LEARN?!Wow, talk about a complete departure from reality "There is no liberal Republican to be found anymore, we get all these crazy religious fanatics"... if that were true you can bet the media (CNN, MSNBC, etc.) would be putting them on air 24x7.
There is only one party that is harboring religious fanatics that espouse violence and restrictions of freedoms on women, and non-believers.
We have the media downplaying the calls for violence and lunacy by politicians like Maxine Waters, while playing up the idiocy of traitors to this nation like Steve Bannon, who should have been placed in jail long ago for his crimes.
The reason for hope, in all good people of this country, is that all the ravings of our compromised media, and corrupt politicians don't seem to matter, they aren't having an impact... obviously some of the people in this country can be fooled all of the time, and follow them blindly, sticking to their beliefs like any religious fanatic would.
But for the rest of America, the only thing the last two years have done, is show Americans how truly corrupt and ridiculous things have gotten, and made them aware its time for change... time to vote out all these garbage establishment politicians like Waters, Schumer, Ryan, Graham, Pelosi, etc. all those who have sold out the American people, and turn off the TV set and ignore the lies of CNN, MSNBC, etc. completely.Ken,
The people you mention are not far right religious fanatics.
We have Mike Pence and others who don't even want women to have access to birth control. You know this as well as I do. Coming of age at the time Roe V Wade was passed, I knew many young women who thought they were in loving, monogamous relationships, whose "boy-men" ran away as soon she they found she was pregnant and would not assume one iota of responsibility. Just like younger men don't want to take any precautions of birth control, because for some reason little to no research is put into birth control measures for men, though most of them would be less invasive.
Of course, young women are less mature too. But they need to have access to abortions in the event they have plans and dreams that didn't include a baby they are left to raise alone--often with no family help.
Far Right religious nuts are going way too far here. Our Constitution clearly states this is a secular country, and we don't need a group of self appointed moralists making decisions about personal issues in our lives. Trump wants to punish women who have abortions, although I've heard from many women it's the most gut wrenching decision one ever has to make. And extremists on the right blame Planned Parenthood for abortions, although they don't perform them. In large states like TX, they make sure the clinics are 500 or so miles away from each other so women are stuck with an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy, even one from rape, just because they have no access to birth control, which used to be covered in health insurance.
A reason many far right extremists still have large families is because churches are getting too involved in politics and should lose their tax free status. They also preach against birth control in this over populated world. Many of these couples home school their kids because they don't want them to believe in evolution or God Forbid! all the environmental dangers that are reality.
This brings me around to our failing school systems, but's a different forum. I'd still send a child to public school so they could meet others with different points of view. But I saw the college education my son got, and it was what I learned in HS. A total waste of money, IMHO, although he was largely a big reader and learned most of what he knew from his father, me, museums and international travel.
- ahorsebackposted 6 years ago0
The greatest " threat " to America isn't Putin , it isn't Russia , it isn't even the acts by Russian military who tried to influence our elections . The greatest threat to America at this point is the direction of the democratic party , fact . The alt-left has hijacked the democratic norm and, at this point , even the traditional democrats are at present sitting back and watching how bad their own party act's in attempts to bring America to her knees .
Time to accept the real blame for our national media distrust , pull your party together and grow a set ba{{s , reclaim your party or accept the impending violent trends in the streets . Cool the jets of your media giants and stop inciting such a negative national discourse . Here is a song which APTLY describes this current situation in America:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9poCAuYT-sGreat musical choice Grace, as timely now as it was then.
I had this same conversation with a friend recently. He also believed the Republican Party began moving to the Christian Right during Nixon and continued with Reagan. I have trouble with Sessions talking about drug gangs and agreeing with Nancy Reagan's non solution of "just say no." We both know that when a young boy is "asked" to carry drugs to another point, he's "asked" at gunpoint and will be killed if he refuses. Maybe some people need a few trips to the inner cities.
NJ also suffers from the opiod issue. But I see commercials that insist a person gets hooked in 5 days, which is ludicrous. My sister in law took a bad fall in March, and broke both hips and her pelvis. She has a good job and is retiring at the end of the month. But they won't give her anything for pain. I also take a codeine based medication for back spasms, and these stricter prescription drug laws will mostly hurt people with chronic pain or who have been in accidents. Criminals will always find a way to get what they want.
We disagreed about Clinton. He was seen as liberal at the time, but was really a centrist. He started Don't ask, don't tell, he protected DOMA, and did balance the budget. I don't think Obama wanted to be seen as "the Black President" and he stayed center too, it was Joe Biden who pushed him more to the left. But I still don't think we have candidates who represent the left, only centrists who are still afraid to stand up for Civil Rights we both believe in: LGBTQ rights to marry and have the rights that go with marriage, a Women's right for reproductive care and abortion, and rights for people of color. Although we also have the right to worship as we choose, I resent Christians always shoving their religion in my face, I identify as Pagan. Not as much of this nation is Christian as they believe.
I do think social programs got out of control in the 60's. While we need some forms of protection for those who need it, we must reassess what's important and what's not. I believe there are jobs out there for those who are truly looking.
I am happy your shoulder is getting better. I am having more issues with the scoliosis which have been exacerbated by stress issues. But like you, I remain hopeful, and friends tell me I look better than I feel.
I will check out the book. I would also like to see people come together as we can't resolve our issues as one country, or form that more perfect union, if we can't talk.
Being anti war even though I grew up in a military family, I would hate to see a WWIII. Let's hope for the best. A pleasure as always.The present sociopolitical situation reminds me of this song. This song is as relevant today as it was in the 1970s. I also want to see people of different political ideologies come together instead of fighting.
- ahorsebackposted 6 years ago0
Liberals can look to their own party for the entire causation and choice of eventual solution to the present ideological divide in America . It is the socialist alt-left that has always caused divide in America since the early 1900's socialist labor issues .....pretty simple , entitlement politics , open borders , anti-sovereignty , desire for nanny -state politics , embracing hypocrisy as their greatest character trait , creating the present divisive media cult ..........................
Then actually blame conservatives for not changing with them ? O.K. people. I'm going to go out on a limb here. I don't consider myself a conspiracy theorist. However, I can't ignore the signs. I don't believe Trump is a democrat or a republican. He is an Economic Nationalist. If you pull back the curtain, you will find two puppeteers who are pulling Trump's strings.
One is Stephen Miller who is one of his chief strategists and his primary speech writer. The other is Steve Bannon who was Trump's chief strategist but was let go by Trump. Both of them are advocates of Economic Nationalism.
Stephen Miller is a racist Jew who formulated the policy of separating the children from their parents, which now has Trump and company in hot water. Steve Bannon was the creator of Cambridge Analytica which tried to influence the outcome of Trump's election. He and his cohorts did this by using the Facebook database to quiz users and create personality profiles that they could micro-target specific individuals to influence the vote.
That’s why Trump said he could shoot somebody in the middle of 5th Avenue and nobody would care. It’s because he knows what his voters are willing to tolerate, because of their personality profiles. Cambridge Anaylitica is now bankrupt and closed down, but I have no doubt it will be reincarnated under some other form and factor.
So, what is Economic Nationalism? Here is the formal definition from Wikipedia:
Economic nationalism refers to an ideology that favors state interventionism in the economy, with policies that emphasize domestic control of the economy, labor, and capital formation, even if this requires the imposition of tariffs and other restrictions on the movement of labor, goods and capital. In many cases, economic nationalists oppose globalization or at least question the benefits of unrestricted free trade. Economic nationalism is the doctrine of mercantilism, and as such favors protectionism. These types of economies are considered "repressed" or "mixed" and are diametrically opposed to a free market in terms of economic theory.
Is Trump raising tariffs on imports? – Yes
Does he want to send many of the federal government responsibilities
back to the states – Yes
Does he want to isolate us from the European Union – Yes
Does he want to close off our borders to low skilled workers - Yes
Does he want to drop out of NAFTA, NATO, and the UN – Yes
So, what is his end game?
1. Raise tariffs to Isolate the US so that we produce our own goods and services as much as possible.
2. Lower taxes to offset the increased price in goods and services
3. Make the increase in profits flow to the top of the food chain.
4. Shrink the size of the federal government by eliminating many administrative agencies or turn them over to state control.
5, Make nice to Putin for possible trade deals with RussiaFocusing merely on the 'economic nationalism' points that you have laid out there, I can agree to almost all of that. Sounds good, the smaller the Fed the better.
The less interference/authority the UN has on our policies and in our country the better.
NATO as long as they are buying tanks and jets and missiles we won't likely pull out of that.
NAFTA has cost plenty of Americans jobs, even now factories are shutting down in Ohio to open up in Mexico, it was a raw deal for American workers from day one.
The further along he gets on this road the better IMO.Ken Burgess: Trump's increase in tariffs and shutting down the border is already affecting fruit growers. They can't find anyone to pick their fruit with the dedication and efficiency of migrant labor. Also it costs the countries more who were buying the fruit since the tariffs were put in place. The farmers said they can't continue under these conditions.
Trump says he will take care of the farmers, but they don't want to be subsidized. They want free trade.
The reason jobs were outsourced is for cheaper labor. Bringing those jobs back still requires unskilled workers. Trump only wants to bring in foreigners with high skill levels, yet many of those jobs that would be coming back do not require high skilled labor. And the average american who is going to take those jobs would not be willing to work for what the average Chinese assembly worker or Mexican field worker earns.
Trump is upsetting the apple cart."...they don't want to be subsidized."
Right. They just want the laws on immigration ignored so they can pay lower prices while the rest of the country picks up the cost of illegals. Just the biggest subsidy in the country.
If other countries are paying more for fruit they import you might look to that government, not Trump for the tariffs they imposed. And no, they have a choice to apply a tariff to fruit or not to. A choice. That's not something Trump can force on them.Of course the average American won't work for what the average Chinese assembly worker or Mexican worker will work for.
That doesn't mean we allow the shut down of all our factories so they can be shipped to those countries so the companies can make even more profit, how does that help Americans?
Look there was a time when the Democratic Party DEFENDED the workers, their rights, their jobs. That went bye-bye when the Clintons were in office, they sold out the workers and the unions when they allowed for NAFTA, CAFTA, and the continued non-tariff status for China.
That helped the world economy grow, and for Mexico and China to develop. But its time to put the breaks on, before ALL manufacturing and tech jobs ship overseas.
Understand that just because a few farmers might need to pay more to get their fruit picked does not mean we need NAFTA or open borders.
I know a bit more than that, that argument will work on the low IQ voter and the uninformed fool, I don't appreciate being considered either. We have Green Cards, Migrant Worker Programs, Guest Worker Programs, H-1 and H-2B visa programs... its covered, workers can get here legally to do all those jobs. Any argument otherwise is BS.
NAFTA has helped put more than a few Truckers out of work because now instead of having to transfer loads over to American drivers at the border, they can now travel anywhere in the U.S. and to Canada, thousands of jobs lost right there.
Factories closing down and moving to Mexico or Canada (Auto, AC, etc.) all of those should be manufactured here in America, keeping Americans at work... if not, they should be tariffed so substantially that they cannot compete with anything made-in-America, so that the company can't make a profit importing them here to sell them. Employ Americans or pay the price. These jobs weren't lost twenty years ago, this is happening now, today, and it needs to be stopped."Employ Americans or pay the price. "
Ha! Now there is a thread of its own right Ken. What a discussion that would be.
Yes, a product costs more - because it is American made. But hell no! I am a patriotic American, and I shop at Walmart, and you have no right to make me pay more!
I am stealing a Wilderness mantra, but there is so much meat in that simple quoted phrase. Maybe tomorrow I will start a thread to do it justice.
GAKen, I saw a contrite Bill Clinton on TV saying that he was "wrong" about NAFTA and had regretted supporting it. Now that's a first. Too bad somebody with sense couldn't have gotten to him when he was pushing it.
RE: the Mexican truckers driving in the U.S. It was reported that these Mexican truckers who are driving in this country can be a menace on the road because they apparently aren't required to read English and to know the traffic laws. That was about a year ago, and I hope our laws have changed since then.
This explanation of Trump and Economic Nationalism is spot on IMO, and the fact that Trump's people, the ones who even know up from down, support this effort is sad. It will have the US wealth gap akin to that of Latin American nations such as Brazil.
With someone like Trump, and likely the same with many people, "the smaller the fed the better" simply means, "now we own the cookie jar, not just raid it."
Admittedly, I don't know much, other than the media's narrative, about the sad Russian/Ukrainian situation. So, I've been keeping up on this Russia conversation, and it is interesting.
However, I do know a bit about the American military industrial complex, and the tactics used to keep the funds coming. With this knowledge, I simply don't think the Pentagon goes through that much trouble to frame Russia as the enemy. There are so many markets for our weapons that nation's fight over the right to buy them, and lobbyists can make boogie men out of any group without the need for much, if any, framing.
I did have a college professor/boss who grew up in The Czech Republic. She described the difficulties of breaking into a field, not just due to the tests, but because she was a woman from a family not in the in crowd so to speak. We have this in the US, but we haven't had bread lines for a long time.
It's far too late for isolationism to work. I want America to stand strong by being the best. That means competing on a global level. We cannot do this without a top-flight educational system. We need to stand proud, not run scared. My kids will hopefully live in a world where Americans compete rather than hide. At least they are learning about other cultures, other languages to that they may leave if the American Spirit dies with Trump.
Careful now, you don't want to be lumped in with this ignorant Russian fool
You do present the Russian view on things I would like to present the Ukrainian view on things. Here is an article about the myths presented by Russia concerning the Ukraine. I hope you take the time to read it. I don't expect you to agree with it, but hope you realize the Ukrainian view of things.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/04/03/t … t-ukraine/Readmikenow,
You mistook my argument as supporting Russia's position, my only goal was to point out the influence American agents and officials had in what has occurred in the Ukraine.
Explaining Russia's position was part of that perhaps, but I wasn't suggesting I support their position. There is a difference between understanding their viewpoint and position, and supporting it.
IMO the best thing for Ukraine would be if no military power was in the Ukraine, not Russia, not America, not NATO. What Germany and France and the rest of NATO wants, is for the war to be fought in Ukraine, rather than in their nations.
I am certain, those nations would feel more secure making demands on Russia, and instigating sanctions on Russia, if they had a well armed Ukraine sitting right at Russia's border, and it was the Ukrainians that were going to be massacred if war occurred, and not them.You make a valid point. I also realize I may be too close to the situation to be objective. I grew up in a home where anything and everything Russian was hated and despised. Not the Russian people, the Russian government, and its military. I heard many stories about the things Russians did to Ukrainians and how it harmed our family. So, I am being honest. Now, I hear stores about the events in the Ukraine, not from the media, but from people who live there. When it comes to this, I struggle to keep my emotions in check. Thank you for your response.
Why are you afraid to state how you are connected to Russia? What fear drives you to deny the obvious? Being honest is such a struggle for Russian people.
If ever anyone wants to anger a Muscovite, simply point out how the United States is the better country when compared to Russia, and the United State IS the better country. Russians always become so very defensive when this is done.
The United States leads the world where it is important. In the production of petroleum and natural gas hydrocarbons
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=36292
So you provided some articles that Russia is building a base in Crimea. Big deal. They are still illegally occupying the land of another country they took by force and used a bogus vote to justify. This is the Russian way. Do what you want and tell the most outrageous lies to justify it.
Russians have no respect for the human rights of others.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41386490
It would be a much safer world with Russia back behind its borders. You act like Russia is some victim who has to be an aggressor and illegally take over the land of other countries to defend itself. What nonsense.
If the Russian economy was to crash many of their neighboring countries would be quite happy and celebrate. It would be a wonderful day. This would result in one less problem for Russia's neighbors and the rest of the world to have to handle.- ahorsebackposted 6 years ago0
So , Looking at political maps of the Ukraine , I've tried to discern just how many political factions that there are to add to the quandary of inviting the US into supporting a Ukrainian cause ,
Russian regional interests , sovereign Ukraine, socialism , military , militant , labor ,...........How many , a dozen or more ? That's why the US isn't going to do too much other than ,so far, giving over two hundred million dollars to date for who exactly ?
One look at a map shows the geo-political Russian military strategy , Crimea , eastern Ukraine and the location of the Black Sea for just a couple of points . Also note the maps of the expansionism of the Ukraine since the 1600's, the regional divisions of political influence of Ukraine as a whole .
The Vietnam and Korean wars comes to mind when I think about anything other than diplomatic , financial and rhetorical media support from the US to the Ukraine . As shown in US history any kind of the people's revolution from within a nation has to be an extremely strong suite BEFORE outside military influences should or can be involved. Period. ahorseback: I wasn't lying. He hated the civil rights movement. This is from wikipedia.
Civil rights organizations denounced him and the Nation as irresponsible extremists whose views did not represent African Americans.
Malcolm X was equally critical of the civil rights movement.[95] He labeled Martin Luther King Jr. a "chump" and other civil rights leaders "stooges" of the white establishment.[96][H] He called the 1963 March on Washington "the farce on Washington",[98] and said he did not know why so many black people were excited about a demonstration "run by whites in front of a statue of a president who has been dead for a hundred years and who didn't like us when he was alive"
I can assure you the liberals have done more for the black culture than the conservatives have. What have the conservatives done for them?Peoplepower ,
What do conservatives do for black people ?
We await the black people to join ALL Americans of ALL ethnicities in free market competition for jobs , small business opportunities , we await black people to join all people in the greatest melting pot of the American dream , of any dream , to be free of over taxation and tyranny of socialist -democratic party affiliation and so political servitude .
We invite black people to stand beside , not ahead of or behind all others in government instituted "programs " and socially reengineering policies like public housing , segregated education policies and entitlement servitude like welfare . low income housing , we invite blacks to worship the religions that they choose not one either banned or thrust upon them by others , invite them in military opportunities where benefits of higher education earned on the merits of individual accomplishments abound , where rank and honor begins on an even playing field and end at only one's own limitations , Conservatives invite blacks to any neighborhood in the country and not to only enslaving income assisted projects of Chicago , Philadelphia ,Baltimore or LA., Conservatives invite blacks to the American lifestyle of THEIR CHOOSING and not some liberal think tank in a ivory tower reengineering according to what they think THEY need to do with people of different skin colors , income brackets , school grades or ethnic backgrounds .
Conservatives invite ALL people in America to an even playing ground and not just some singular "voting block " group mentality back scratch fiasco where in order to prove party affiliation you have to get on a BLUE bus to go and vote . Conservatives INVITE blacks to vote EITHER party and continue IF THEY SO CHOOSE with the one that shows economic progression based on individual accomplishment and not party affiliation .
Question that interests me at this point is , Why are blacks sticking with a democratic party that has not only offered but run your cities and so your people like Chicago , Baltimore , LA Watts , Philadelphia , Cincinnati , N.O. La. Flint Mi.or Memphis Tenn. into the ground for up to a century ?
A very old saying ," The proof is in the Pudding " I don't know where it came from but someone ought to begin asking about this "proof " of what the democratic party has done for ANYONE other than promise everything and deliver nothing , to ANY ethnicity, minority or any group they have actually "group promised " anything TO.
I'd love some concrete proof . And not a proof of the twisting of reality or a rewritten history book.And just who are WE, Horse? We all know that the ideal and reality are far apart. Who says that we are not joining in the effort for self-sufficiency already? Is it because so many of us have been “Indians” verses “Cowboys” for so long and innately distrust “the system”, that your group has used to intimidate and retard those on the outside for centuries?
Poor people tend to need more help and it is not just black folks which you are obviously alluding to that solely qualify for assistance. If this society were really truly one of equal opportunities, your bromides could well have significance, but no. Who are you to say that we do not make our own selections as to what is or is not serving our interests? That is not the way you evaluate your own reactionary fantasies is it? Are you blind, sir? What do you think that this is all about if not about trying to insure a level playing field? Equal access to education, employment, equal treatment in the eyes of the law and legal system are to just name a few of the concepts of equality. This is not done, but remains an ongoing project in this society. There is a reason that 90% of black voters affiliate with Democrats and it not because they are ignorant according to “all knowing oracle”, Horse. I vote for them as well, and there is not too much about this system and how it works that I do not know about at this late date.
We stick with Democrats because with the Republicans NOTHING is offered on our behalf. The right winger insists on their pro-gun, anti-abortion stances and no one sees them as unreasonably dogmatic. But when black folks circle the wagons around candidates and ideologies that reflect their interests, they are on the “plantation”.
What has the Republican party done for us beside attempt disenfranchisement and refer to us all as hopeless Government doles?
From my experience, what I have seen 'liberal' policies do most is make many 'minorities' dependent upon government handouts and programmed to believe themselves to be 'victims'.
My experience being as limited as it is. Yes there is good in the supports we have, and there is generational abuse as well, sadly, as it is my opinion that parents should hope children exceed them in life and be successful. I don't consider it success when a mother teaches her teenage daughter how to collect benefits for having her first child and being a single mom, just like she was.Man, are you good, ever considered a job teaching African-American history?
Credence, that's all right. Ignore what Candace Owens has to say and remain enslaved by the left. It's your life! But many people of color are seeing the light and rejecting the phony "we care" slogans of the left. They don't care, except to the extent that they can fool people of color into voting for them. When the civil rights voting act of 1965 was finally passed, despite rigorous and bitter fighting against it by the democrats, President Johnson famously said "We'll get those <n-words> voting democrat for the next hundred years." Then the "great society" was launched, designed to keep people of color dependent on the democrat party and prevent them from achieving the American dream because they knew they'd vote conservative if they became successful. And they have been wildly successful at suppressing at least a decent portion of black Americans over the decades since then. Voila! Dependable voting block! It was the Republicans who fought for rights for blacks, the democrats were against it all. They only pretended to switch direction when they realized they would have to get their votes. Study history. It is as clear as can be. So remain a puppet of the dems if you like. Others are moving beyond you and beyond the democrat party.
I did not ignore it, I listened, but I disagree and that is different. Who the hell is Candace Owens? All I know, Sparrow, is that Trump and the conservatives won with the predominant support of only one demographic, white people. Why is that? Are Jews, Asians, Hispanics, etc. on the plantation too? So, Blacks are not the only group dissatisfied with reactionaries and reactionary politics. Did you take the time to read my explanation as to why blacks support Democrats? Paying attention is a two way street.
We all know that the vestiges of the "Old Democratic" party was found in State and local politics particularly in the South as late as 1965. But in national politics, Kennedy-Johnson promoted progressive policies, despite the laggards . Republicans were great in their time but what are they doing TODAY, not 50 years ago? When Trump comes up for reelection in 2020, we will see how much of our vision of society and the Democratic Party are fantasy, Blacks and virtually every other non-white group. You may not have to wait that long, the midterms could very well be the harbinger of changes to come. By the way, I have a BA in History and I know all about it..... thanks
Conservatives consistently irritate me with the idea that one or two black people can be just trotted out to parrot their ideas and concepts and they are to believed over the vast majority of us that say otherwise. What make so many of you "so smart" in this evaluation?Credence , You and liberals like you constantly ignore the greatest factor known to modern political reality, and this can be take back as far as the fifties in America .
If the Democratic party has been such a savior for the black race in America in say the last fifty years , then why are there so many negatives in all our conversations . After all your culture has been voting so long for Democratic ideologies that something should have changed for the better by now, shouldn't they have ?
Look at the democratic and associated black population strongholds , Flint mich . St.Louis Mo. Baltimore Md. , Memphis Tenn. , Wash. D.C. , even NYC , Chicago Ill. , look at the dynamics of economics , crime rates , education statistics .........I won't quote one number , one fact , one statistic ,
Just how are Blacks doing in these Democratic strongholds Credence ? Are you truly happy with dynamics and conditions in Chicago , Baltimore , in NYC , we would all be very interested in your answers. Because according to what your news Media is telling us , things aren't so hot , at least this is what we're hearing constantly .
- ahorsebackposted 6 years ago0
There is only one reason and one reason only that liberals , and namely Obama , kept the term Racism not only alive but wholey revived it into a spreading flame from cold grey ashes . To the liberal party [democrats ]- If the black man is made to feel equal , then that simply means that he is equally able to chose his own destiny above party servitude , he can then dream above party entitlement , he can then choose for himself above ALL being chosen by others .
To Democrats yes , yes Racism is alive and well ! But the real question that I challenge anyone to even dare yourself to wonder is this , NO I dare you to DEMAND and answer to this !
Who has worked the hardest in America in the last thirty years to actually KEEP the term RACISM alive and well ?I don't know so much about the term but the as for RACISM itself, it has been the rightwinger and reactionary. Is that anybody that you know, Horse?
the liberals are the racist party, not the conservatives. anyone with eyes to see and a brain to think knows that. Race is all they see, all they measure things by, all they can THINK about! Race defines the person for them, and race is used to insult others every chance they get. That's not even to mention how they think about people of color and how they treat them! Which is atrocious. yes, liberals in America today are the most racist group of people we've had in this country in over a hundred years. (I'm talking generally about liberals as a group, not anyone in particular in this thread!)
My questions are not directed at anyone person either , but as an American it truly sickens me every time the term racism is trivially raised by the left , And now that same left wants to what ," Can't we all just get along " like none of these false and actually atrocious politically motivated accusations happened at all .
Ok, Horse and Sparrow ( what a team), remember Moose and Squirrel?
I should back up a little, I should avoid the toxic "racist" label. My issue with the Right and Conservatives is that their policies and ideals are not ones that I and others like me believe are the best for the country.
Obviously, you and your group think otherwise. This is America and you have that right, we will just see whose set of values prevail at the polls. I know that Conservatives will accept the idea of popular sovereignty, that the voters are the ones who are to ultimately decide the merit of either side?The left has created such false issues and so doubled down on them in this election cycle that if your party loses in the midterms , you'll have to reinvent your entire mission statement , your entire party platform ,
The Jim Acosta's , Hollywood kings and queens alike , The Sports celebrity sufferers , the entire fake media , ..............Your party has done more to divide this nation in false cause than any party in any era in America's history -short of the era during the civil war .
If your party wins you merely carry your party divisiveness and absolute America hatred to the 2020 election . If your party loses in the midterms you should take it as a major message of "put up or shut up " , and then begin to return your entire message to at least one of honesty and shared political reality.
Any team on any sports field that consistently loses , always and eventually reinvents itself to attain a competitive future , they don't generally double down on the utter incompetence and team mismanagement.
Democrats to date ; have done only this.All that may be well and good for you, but I don't trust conservatives and rightwingers, generally, and will be doing my damnest to get them out of my statehouse and out of Washington, your hackneyed viewpoints not withstanding.
Thus, the Blue Wave is coming and you better grab on to something..don't want to see you get wet...
You seem so obsessed, are you hiding a little fear there?
"Poor people tend to need more help and it is not just black folks which you are obviously alluding to that solely qualify for assistance. If this society were really truly one of equal opportunities, your bromides could well have significance, but no. "
Credence; I'm not going to pretend to be anywhere near a race-relations expert, but I want to respond to this earlier statement you made.
It's great that you mention how so many whites are also on assistance. Many of us are drug addicts who don't work and even steal from family members. SOME who still support Republicans blame this on minorities and the last guy in the oval office. In my days as a low-level lobbyist, I was privy to many phone conversations that went something like "I'm not a racist, but" and some much much worse. Obama was a "dictator" and now they cheer on a strong leader.
Having said this, IMO, the media adds fuel to this blame game as they paint so many whites, particularly white men, as being privileged members of society or uneducated white trash. This is not a society of equal opportunities for many whites as well.
The reality, of course, is that not all of us are members of any "good old boy club." Some of us have absolutely no inheritance to look forward to and no daddy to hand us a well-paying job when we get out of high-school or college. I worked for everything I ever had, including my education, and still know what it's like to be ignored by salespeople due to my shoes looking too cheap or some such nonsense. In my younger days, I was afforded no leniency by the "justice" system. Today, because I live in an inner-city area, an initial encounter with any city official starts with a clear assumption that I'm some sort of derelict just because of where I live. This is despite of how well I may keep up my home.
Having said this, I have NO understanding of what it's like to be a minority in America. I do know I'd still rather be white when encountering a police officer. I also understand that minorities are less likely to have the advantage that some whites have--if that makes sense. But, as time moves on, it seems the truly advantaged whites are getting fewer and further between.
Many of us just want our nation, and our neighborhoods to improve. The extremes on both sides are not helping IMO. I refer to the media and the scared white reactionaries, so many of which support Trump. I'm not stating this is the sole reason for supporting Trump, but, it is a factor for many. While I applaud the media for calling out Trump, I blame the media for helping to create him by adding fuel to flames of fear and hate which divides us and ultimately serves to urge too many low income whites to vote against their own interests.Hard Sun: When you lump the media together, you lose sight of the two universes the "media" lives in. There is Fox News and the alt right radio stations in one universe. They create one reality and there is all the other news outlets that create another universe with a different reality.
Then you have Trump who sides with Fox News and calls the other outlets and their journalist fake news and the enemy of the people. Trump is helping to perpetuate that division by holding rallies for his base where he puts down the other side.
It can be seen from the audiences' reactions that they support the division and he is using language that a dictator uses.. Whether the audience is staged or not doesn't matter because, it is there for the world to see.I agree. Lumping the two together was probably not the best route. There are definitely two separate universes with very different views. I also agree that Trump is intentionally sewing discord. Likely to prop up his base and for reasons that I would consider to be nefarious.
Thank you Hard Sun for your comments. I don't participate as much as I use to because it is very stressful. It's either hard right or hard left. If everyone operates from a reality similar to yours there could be some move toward liberty and justice for all.
I have affiliated with Stand Up Republic because there are people involved who want comity.Thank you. These are definitely not easy issues dianetrotter. Though I agree that it starts with people at least attempting to come from the correct place and move in a good direction.
I will check out Stand Up Republic. Its "Our Principles" page is certainly encouraging.Evan Mullins, former FBI agent from Utah, is one of the more prominent spokespersons. There are others.
Thanks, Don, for your honesty and candor. Your revelation is something that I could never get conservatives to admit, let alone confide with me in regards to any of this. In appreciation, I am going to try to reciprocate.
So, why are minorities solely at fault for all THEIR problems? History has shown all too often, that the Capitalist Class used divide and conquer tactics to keep people divided, keeping them ignorant as to who it is that is “ripping everyone off”. It starts with Slavery and the planter class, allowing poor whites the consolation that at least they were white, even though many of them lived in conditions that were not a great deal better than the slaves. What did it take to get these people with next to nothing to side with the interests of a wealthy class that really had no use for them?
We can go into the early 20th century and the rise of labor unions and necessary Government involvement to curb the abuses of the Corporates. More divide and conquer, segregate the Unions or, out and out, do not allow Blacks in them. Who did that benefit? It has just seemed to me that there is a lot of hatred and resentment there when you are willing to remain and wallow in the mud just so you can keep someone else from climbing out and possibly offering you a hand to get out, as well. What kind of people stands around and picnic, with the lynching, castration and dismemberment of a black man as the main event? All the same, a government that supposedly was based upon the basic rights of man is ignoring these crimes? I know that any current inner city violence cannot approach this level of savagery. They sold tickets, popcorn and lemonade and the men brought their wives and children. There are plenty of photos that attest to this. This all within the last century, not the Middle Ages. What mitigating policies were put in place was because of the Civil Rights Movement and thoughtful whites that were working with us from the Left. It is a lot of that same hatred and resentment toward minorities in general and Blacks, in particular, that drives so many Trump voters to vote against their interests, economic, political, etc, IMHO.
Well, Don, to be honest, statistically, relative to minority groups, white men are privileged members of society relative to the status of minority groups based upon any yardstick you want to use to measure relative success. On an individual basis, of course, there are always exceptions, but so is Oprah Winfrey. But, I certainly would not say that Oprah is the rule. I never saw a lot of focus on “uneducated white trash”.
Living in an inner city area, you have the opportunity to go “blackface” and see firsthand what many of these forum posters could only guess at based on they have seen on Tee-Vee. You don’t have to explain, you and others like you are hard workers and had few breaks, it is just that are many more white folks that have had this advantage compared with others. I never got an inheritance; it is not something even to consider within the black community. We simply have not accumulated the wealth, which comes over time, to pass down to progeny. In “Message from and to Black America” I and II, I try to explain my frustration with the inequity and fairly assign blame to our group verses that of the system, generally.
The fact that you are willing to listen is a slight more than I can say for most people. The real color today is green; the race thing was about exploiting people for unfair economic advantage from the beginning. I am just trying to get people to be smart enough to recognize that. With so much of the structural changes in the economy, the computer and the automaton may become our new privileged class. There is the danger of a vast class of discarded people verses a handful of wealthy who hold all the cards. That has been the danger from the beginning of time and so it remains. It may come from a different direction than it did 100 years ago, but it is always the same. My political orientation and ideals require that I resist such trends as much as possible as a threat to Democracy, itself. I suspect that fear and hate has been around for a considerable time, this is just the first time in the modern era that it is being shown an advocate and given a voice.
I like to think that we can rise above all of this. Maybe, a First Contact with an Alien civilization will unite humanity. But, I watch too much Star Trek. Is this sort of behavior among people just human nature? When the time comes that we can look back upon racial animosity and prejudice the way we ridicule the Salem Witchcraft Trials of the 17th century today, then I think that we have arrived.
In the 23rd century?Yes Cred, it will take at least until the 23rd century. At least until all newborns are tan. And even then, our human nature will find another non-racial identifier to delineate groups and define affiliations that were previously the realm of racism.
But look at the bright side, you and I will be able to go to our graves thinking we fought the valiant fight against racism - the scourge of human society. (ignoring that the real scourge is our nature itself.)
Did you know that in the animal kingdom, monogamy is more rare than cannibalism? And of course you know that we are the apex of that animal kingdom.
But, no worries for us, we have reasoned our way to a more beneficent existence. We can rest easy.
Hold on while I give this shaker a shake. ;-)Apologies for the overly long response. I have no expectations of anyone reading through this entire thing to be honest. And, I'm likely wading into waters I shouldn't, but, living on the edge...lol. This is a bit for myself as well as for this conversation.
" at least they were white"
Unfortunately, yeah, this attitude still exists among pockets of the poor. I think all around the US. I also think there is a sense that poor whites are being unfairly demonized in the US. And, its redneck culture is disproportionately poked fun of in mean-spirited ways by the media. While this is in no way comparable to the suffering blacks have gone through, I think that's something only understood if you are poor and white, and there's a feeling that this anti non-college educated/white attitude could become more prevalent. Myself, while I see it, I'm not overly concerned about the matter, but I know many lower-income whites are. Plus, things like transgender issues just scare many of the uneducated whites. "What's our country coming to?
I think more whites need to try harder, get an education, etc. despite the barriers they may have.
"What kind of people stands around and picnic, with the lynching, castration and dismemberment of a black man as the main event? All the same, a government that supposedly was based upon the basic rights of man is ignoring these crimes? "
This is the type of systematic and horrendous treatment by fellow American citizens from recent history that whites cannot relate to. While our white ancestors may have some horrible stories, particularly if they are Jewish, many of them were not so widespread, recent, and perpetuated by fellow Americans.
"Well, Don, to be honest, statistically, relative to minority groups, white men are privileged members of society relative to the status of minority groups based upon any yardstick you want to use to measure relative success."
This is certainly true. The issue is that in raw numbers there are just so damn many poor whites in the US. This NCCP link http://nccp.org/media/releases/release_34.html verifies your "relative" statement, while pointing out that there are at least a half million more white american children in poverty than any other racial group. Those are millions of people who, while some are just looking for the "at least were not black of Hispanic" outlet, grow weary of being portrayed as the privileged class.
So many of the lower-income minority and white issues are shared problems. For example, The matter of felons losing too many rights may disproportionately affect minorities, but there are umpteen numbers of white guys who can't find gainful employment, apartments, etc because of a felony conviction.
I too wish we could ridicule racial prejudice how we do the days of the Salem Witch Trials. But, clearly, we are not there yet. Still, many whites want to tell blacks to just get over, it and you can overcome just as easily as anyone else. I'm not one of those. Maybe not until, and if, we ever do reach the day where racism is considered as ridiculous as witch trials
In the meantime, I think if liberal politicians were allowed to address the lower-middle class and poor white's concerns, as well as the ever-present racism, without being labeled anti-minority or anti-white, they could win over the House/Senate and many state governments they never thought possible. The media seems to always state that a Democrat running for President must be female or non-white. I don't think gender or color should matter when it comes to who runs the nation.I did read it all. As I read, I thought "This guys should run for office." Then I realized that politics change people. Once elected officials are concerned about getting votes. They vote along party lines rather than voted what is right. Principle should always trump votes. When you know the right thing to do, risk not getting the votes.
Ha ha..yeah, I'm better behind a keyboard than in person. I would like to get into speech writing but no bites on my attempts at that yet. It would be much better than selling my soul for astroturfing campaigns, which I won't do any longer.
It is unfortunate how you must cater to one base or another to get votes and just how much money corrupts.
A voting system other than first past the post could be part of what we need to end the extreme partisanship and bring representation to "the middle" who so often seems left out.
I read that Evan Mullins is a founder of Stand Up Republic. I still need to do some digging on them as I'm so skeptical of all groups partly because of that astroturfing experience. But, this seems genuine and I would love to be involved in something politically that I can truly believe in. I'll keep you posted if I give or get involved in any way.I'm watching too. Each person brings his/her positives and negatives. Strategically placed people can alter or destroy the original intent.
- ahorsebackposted 6 years ago0
To all of you , The larger News Media is hard left , face truth or not , sure you have Fox on the right , WOW ! What a huge offset .
Problem is you can blame this no more on Trump than you can Obama and the Clintons , Rope in your Socialist and absolutely dishonest News Media and you could stand then to at least address compromise .
All of you who defend our news media IN THE PRESENT STATE are doing no more than using that absolute bias to feed your party's socialist agenda . Never again can you expect the right in America to " listen to both sides " as previously possible in past decades . The left in America although quite by accident , have ignited a glowing fire on the center and far right that may burn for years with your phony alarms to such as lower federal circuit courts false flags of , racism , bigotry , islamophobe, immigration bias, socio-economic divide and baseless ideological sparring .
Good luck compromising with the right for decades , This will not soon be forgotten as the left has delivered through false basis , a very near civil war to the forefront of America , Trump from this point on will continue the " push back " like it or not . Unlike past leaders he owes absolutely NO ONE for his dedication to center Americans and their issues , meaning he will bend to no pressures but those of his followers , those who're dedicated Americans FOR America .That's probably the most un-American rant I've ever read or heard. Heil Trump and misery to the enemy who are our fellow Americans. This is real life, with real families, and real people we are talking about here. That's the last time I respond to you...period. That type of talk is sure to have karma dealing you a hefty blow. And yes, that is just my opinion.
You or I have no choice in how we feel about two things , One , You're obviously not as "unbiased " as you've claimed in the past and are of the opposing ideology and don't care how the right feels .
Two , You know and are ignoring this political reality that I speak of and you're SO far left that you simply won't admit to this party obstruction and hate driven rhetoric from your party .
Either way , How does it feel to have reached a point in your party hatred that you've pushed so hard and so long against the right that we are finally speaking back ?
Fact ;....... If you consider that above" the most anti-American rant you've ever read or heard "............, you are TOTALLY ignoring the leftist party rhetoric that is destroying the cohesion between a two party political society in America . Advice , take your party back from the edge of socialism , stop inciting violence and in our streets ,return to a semblance of peace in America or drop out of these forums altogether , it makes no difference to me. Just stop trying to B.S. us to your divisive party's violent , hateful leftist reality .ahorseback: I must say your rants are becoming more vitriolic the older you get. Have you looked in a mirror? If the obstruction you are talking about is Trump, we haven't been very successful. He kind of does his own thing, don't you think?
How is the democratic party socialist? How does it incite violence in our streets? How is it hateful? Your rants sound pretty hateful to me and I'm sure many others who read them.My speech is party defensive , it is your party that is inciting the most hateful rhetoric in fifty years , in the sixties while Vietnam was in full swing your party was in the streets then too , burning , tearing up the barriers of common decency . black panthers , the leftist campus destruction , exploding bombs , killing cops then too ...........................Was that Conservatives then ?, No ! Conservatives then remained silent too , vigilant but silent .
Your democratic party's been hijacked by the same 60's rhetoric , voters who were taught by leftist professors , Sanders party listeners who'd rather rip America's fabric to sheds than continue the traditional two party lines , Face it ...........You've accepted that passively and happily .
There are two party's today too , Conservative traditionalists who're wondering what the hell happened to America and your party left of two factions , those ripping and tearing at America's fabric and the passive aggressive older liberal generation bearing a wait and see attitude of socialist entitlements or defeat at the hands of Trump ---which is it going to be Peoplepower ?- Your socialist entitlement generation or traditional democrats ---tell us please , the world awaits.
We over here on the right of center patiently await you party's blind transition of power back to democrat left or onward to eventual socialist destruction .
,ahorseback: This is the conclusion from my Article on How the GOP took over both the federal government and many of the state governments.
"This has been a long article, but I believe necessarily so. As one can see, the GOP since the time of LBJ, has been focused on taking over the government. Each of the key individuals in the movement have left their legacy that has contributed to the overall goal of government takeover. And now that Trump has come along, it is just what they needed to put the "icing on the cake."
Here is the cast of players and their contribution to the takeover.
Barry Goldwater - Conservative Manifesto
Paul Wyerich - Heritage Foundation and ALEC
Ronald Reagan - Veto of the Fairness Doctrine
Frank Luntz - The Republican Playbook
Rick Santelli - The Tea Party
Jim Jordan - The House Freedom Caucus
Steve Bannon - Cambridge Analytica
Mitch McConnell - The Biden Rule
Rupert Murdoch - Fox News
Donald Trump - The Icing on the Cake
I truly believe that liberal democrats don't have the genes to to do what conservatives can accomplish. Conservatives are much better at organizing, following through, and attacking their opposition. Whether this is good for the country or not will have to be seen. As one of Trump's favorite sayings is, "We shall see." Thank you for reading and seeing how this story has unfolded.
- ahorsebackposted 6 years ago0
Crayola Politics ;
So from what I can get out of this entire thread based upon all of your very intellectual and long winded responses is that the biggest problems in the US society today and the solutions for them are these , Trump , Black , red , green white , white , yellow, brown , black ,black ,white , red , white , brown , Trump , Trump ,Trump and then white again .....................but mostly white ? You people must make everyone around you very proud to share life with you , My only hope is that as you go through life day to day you don't act out these fine examples of blaming someone else for all your ills. .
Seriously how all of you have existed to this date in such long lives while blaming just about every other color than your own , for your own success' or failures is pretty amazing . It all goes back I suppose to the Crayola politics of the baby -boomers and your X Y Z offspring . - ahorsebackposted 6 years ago0
There will never be a Utopian States of America when it comes to race , income or educational divides , Why ? AS much because of intellectualism and intellectual activism as because of the "ignorance" of poor people or any income or intellectual divide , no matter what color or ethnicity .
From the beginning of America --just as in all countries -- migrations of ethnicities occur so often as to create their own wake of cultural divisions . The Italians and the Greeks , The Greeks and the Turks , The anglo-and French Canadians The middle easterners and the Europeans , I don't care where you go in our American cities there is generally more division in cultures there ,in fact far more division than in the generic white rural America that I grew up in .
I got a young adult education in these issues moving to the first "big "city I lived in in New England and it has grown more evident since I've aged . Want to see true ethnic ideological warring ? Go to any city , Perhaps that's exactly why there IS so much divide in America as in all nations , A population of people immigrate , do they assimilated , spread out , mix in ? No . They take over neighborhoods and build fortress' of sameness , protective societies , cultures of selfness and selfishness !
I wonder often why rural America adjusts far easier , Why minorities moving rurally adjust far better ? Why even whites accept this migration far easier AND I know the answers ; America's rural assimilation habits , mixing , melting and mating is far more natural than grouping , mass forced take- overs of neighborhoods and entire cities , social re-engineering , Activating of social , housing and education "projects " based on academia's "best guess " reprogramming of ethnicities into other societies.
Stop engineering societies and let them happen legally and naturally .That was thoughtful ahorseback. And, I think, a valid perspective.
You are essentially describing tribalism, which I think is an undeniable and non-erasable reality of human nature. All nature for that matter.
Although I am certain most folks, (here, anyway), are familiar with that concept, I think the most interesting point you made was the different strength of tribalistic instincts between rural and urban populations.
Think about it ...from the caveman to modern day man, the primary goal of tribalism has been security. So maybe rural folks feel more secure in their life than city-dwellers ...
GAGA , I can tell you this much , I've never seen more ethnic bias between our "tribes " than I have in the cities for one and within minorities themselves for two .
Having been a layman , a factory worker at times I was always amazed to work with groups in the cities and experience their biases and prejudices , I remember in my twenties working in a furniture manufacturing facility in a city where in one section where a group of Greeks performed certain duties , in another section a few Italians , now let me tell you these people hated each other . This particular city was a smaller , 120,000 pop. but held neighborhoods of many immigrants , each group having their own social clubs , Greeks , Italians , French -Canadians , Lithuanians ,
Now this same city near Boston has a large influx of Hispanic , Haitians and newly immigrated African nations . Yet as I've stated , I had to go to the cities to learn of such ethnic divide . I do believe there is a certain lack of concern about ethnic divides there too and see it as ,for them , just a much more natural almost neighborly acceptance , It all makes me all the happier that I learned from poor rural farm folks that treating one's neighbor , no matter their ethnicity , as just one more neighbor .
Perhaps too generic an education about ethnic and racial divide , yet rurally we learned that homogenization is a natural occurrence between peoples and the more urban ethnic isolationism today is a negative and not progressive at all .
I know which I would chose to learn from all over again. Perhaps that's why it just burns me to hear people through even the term "racist" around like it were a cheap reusable hand towel in an old kitchen sink , when our nation and most of its people truly know the cost of racial and ethnic division , its history and more and more likely it's very negative future ."I think the most interesting point you made was the different strength of tribalistic instincts between rural and urban populations.Think about it ...from the caveman to modern day man, the primary goal of tribalism has been security. So maybe rural folks feel more secure in their life than city-dwellers ..."
I think the security point here is valid. However, it seems to have much more to do with utility as opposed to any sort of instincts. The basics of security, food, water, and shelter are easier to come by in rural areas when you have adequate cash flow. Keeping a car running to make it to the market is more trouble for those without the means. With less cash, it makes sense to live where you have access to bus lines and such in case you ever have to go without a vehicle.
If you are good with farming, trading, etc. and have a few friends around then you can make rural living tolerable even without much money. However, with factory farms and so many abandoning that way of life for good factory jobs, many of which no longer exist, this doesn't happen as often as it once did.
We live in the city and do the urban farming thing. I'm big on both self-sufficiency and security and city living makes more sense for me because of that. Now, if I had more means, I may think differently. However, I'd rather work my plot of land, do my own house repairs, etc. then work for one entity 50-60 hours a week so I can afford to live in a more rural area. I'm more independent this way, if that makes sense.I believe tribalism has to do with protection of territory or of the taking of other's territory. When Columbus came to the new world, it was the beginning of the end of tribalism for native Indians of the America's . The conquistadors brought their own tribes to conquer the territories of the native tribes.
I believe wars are first fought for control of territories, followed by economics.
Our political values and beliefs can be thought of as intellectual territory that we don't want the other side to encroach or infringe on. That is what MAGA , America First and the wall are all about. We are trying to protect the territory of our tribe. It is what we endeavor to define as members of the American tribe.
I can now understand why ahorseback feels the way he does, because all these other tribes have encroached on his "rural living tribe" where he developed his core values. He now feels threatened by what he calls "Social Re- engineering." and the settlement of groups who are not part of his tribe.
He believes that the European tribes that came here in the turn of the century would have assimilated much better into the "American tribe" if they first moved into rural areas.
This is what he said:
"I wonder often why rural America adjusts far easier , Why minorities moving rurally adjust far better ? Why even whites accept this migration far easier AND I know the answers ; America's rural assimilation habits , mixing , melting and mating is far more natural than grouping , mass forced take- overs of neighborhoods and entire cities , social re-engineering , Activating of social , housing and education "projects " based on academia's "best guess " reprogramming of ethnicities into other societies.
Stop engineering societies and let them happen legally and naturally ."
Ah yes, he longs for the good old days, when there were no liberals, just all conservative rural people living the good life and allowing everybody to assimilate into their life style and core values, including gay marriages, mixed racial marriages, and the "kings and queens of Hollywood." (his words).Peoplepower , Very entertaining but that's about the most useless and unimaginative deduction I've ever read about my own writings . My point was first , hatred , prejudice , bias and economic divide thrives in the inner city sanctums of , lets face it , mostly liberal run enclaves . Take a look at any of your major liberal strongholds , Baltimore , Chicago , NYC, and here's the thing and the place where I believe it all changes -
Here , if someone were laying beside the street on a cold winter night , we wouldn't need a socially created sanctuary "homeless shelter " to take care of them , someone would stop and check them out rather than step over them and keep walking , OR gang up and play the "knock out game " with them .
It's about what you've given up for core values , what you've tossed away for unnecessary morality , it's about the crowd mentality of gangs on one hand and turn your headers on the other hand , Yes , There is a huge difference and Man ! I'm sure glad there is !
It must be easy to decide that only liberals are intelligent Peoplepower , what must be very , very hard for you to accept is that OMG , sometimes conservatives" hit a nail on the head" that strikes at your very deeply held "I'm better than they are ' beliefs .Good points. When people have considered themselves to be greaters, it is threatening to see those conssidered surpassing you. Employment is the triangular model. The higher you go, there are fewer jobs. Those at the bottom get paid less.
This is very true on a one-to-one level regardless of ethnicity. It happens when a neighbor gets a new car, house remodeling, etc. It makes a person feel unaccomplished.
There are ethnic differences that require products/services Black hair products, cosmetoligists, barbers. It doesn't mean that people should be separated; however, merchants need to be where they can get traffic for their specific goos/services.
Hey there hard sun, ain't it great that we can disagree - without one of us having to go to jail. ;-)
The security I was speaking of could certainly contain the things you mentioned, but in the context I was thinking of, it would range the scale from physical to mental security.
Physical security as basic as the adage about strength in numbers, mental security in the aspect of being among like-minded folks - a sense of belonging, and all the other things in between that would contribute to a sense of security in everyday life.
GAThe security I'm speaking of ranges the scale from physical, to mental, to financial. You were discussing living patterns. And, I think it's more than prudent to point out the utility of living arrangements when assigning geographical living preference based on some philosophical discussion of instinct.
I didn't see a disagreement before. I just saw a discussion about living patterns that I felt I had a more useful explanation for...still do. Now I do see a small point of disagreement. Many people live in the city and have no desire to be around much of any folks, let alone like minded folks.
Who said anything about going to jail?ahorseback did.
ps. there has to be disagreement hard sun, I was never very good at choir sessions
GA;-)
I think we are getting to the point where if/when the 'Left' gets back in full control of the House, Senate and Exec, we might be quickly ushered to a point where those who disagree WILL be carted off to jail.
What do we see going on right now?
One side of the aisle where there is overwhelming evidence of corruption, collusion, abuse of power, etc. with no consequences or punishment for these crimes. In fact, the institutions that are supposed to be impartial and prosecuting them, are instead handing out immunity for their criminal acts and destroying the evidence. (IE- Podesta Brothers, Clinton)
And on the other side, with no proof of any legitimate wrongdoing and an investigation begun with false information, people are being thrown in jail by a Investigator who is supposed to be looking for how Russians interfered with an election. But the investigation is essentially about finding enough dirt on a sitting President to get him ousted out of office.
There is no way they are going to allow this 'populist' movement ever occur again, once they have regained control, the kid gloves are coming off, and free speech, political opposition, all of it is going to be eradicated as quickly as possible.
You think the outrage and aggression is manifesting now, I dare say it is not, what we are seeing in the media, in print, and with activists on the colleges and in the streets is just the tip of the iceberg, and when they regain political control the full wrath and bile will be brought to bear on all of America.
On a side note for some levity, I give you this clip:
https://www.facebook.com/allieCRTV/vide … 394657512/Ken , I used to think the pendulum swung back and forth and yet I fear that you are correct . Trump certainly isn't the image of the man we thought one day might help us to take our nation back from the brink , to"drain the swamp " , get us out of the quagmire of established DC. politics , never dreamed he would resemble Trump ! Reagan ? Sure , It makes me wish Reagan had gotten into national politics at a younger age .
If in the near future at least if we have anything again nearing the likes of Obama , Sanders or , as the younger ones think , Cortez -like we certainly are doomed , America is certainly doomed , .........
Too many of our younger voters want a socialist -democracy , popular votes , failure as that will be . Entitlements , free , free , free "without the sacrifice of self "is the coming mantra In their minds they see nothing but that we can have without the sacrifice of working , "Just get me into the waiting line first ".The threat comes from the open Socialist teachings ongoing in the majority of 'Higher Education'. This piece from a Tucker interview of a Harvard Professor (who looks and acts like a kid) is a nice example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FDYG4Y-YHI
The majority of colleges today seem to advocate socialism, victim identity, anti-western beliefs. While silencing the opposite side of the spectrum on campus. These are the future politicians, judges, and social activists of America... and that is why there is such a danger for extreme measures resulting when/if the 'left' regains full control.
What Trump's election has taught them, is that despite allowing for lack of identification in the voting process, lack of verification ability for absentee ballots, spending hundreds of millions of dollars to secure votes, Hollywood coming out in force for their side, and all the other dirty tricks that may be used... they cannot be certain of the outcome.
There are just too many Americans that are NOT part of that 'intellectual elite' and despite having half the country dependent on government handouts in some fashion in 2016, they could not depend on those people going to the voting booth and supporting the party that has given them so much. Never have so many gotten so much for producing nothing as the tens of millions we have in America that receive housing, welfare, foodstamps, etc. and still they could not win.
I think 2016 has made the point, and they will not allow for real elections or real choice ever again, once they remove Trump and regain control.This is what the right wing media keeps telling us. This was a big tactic in right wing astroturfing. Their's no badge of maverick thought that goes to those who follow the narrative, whether it be the left's or the right's.
It's not surprising that these attitudes begin to take hold. Demonize them. and get them because it's all THEIR fault, and those university snobs make great targets. The fact is, you don't have to be a supporter of big Dems or the extremist right wing propagandists to have your voice heard, but that's what they tell us. You don't think there are "extreme measures" undergoing by the right wing as we speak. You don't think Trump's it's all rigged and lock her up were not meant to sew discord and um/rig elections?
Meanwhile, the right wing creates their own class of people dependent upon government handouts. And, the empirical research that brought almost every societal advance lies by the wayside as people flip off CNN, showing America's best side to the world. It's so awesome. The right wing was screaming Obama was a dictator even when he couldn't get much at all done. Too many wanted a dictator to tell them who to hate, to tell them America must be destroyed and rise again from the ashes. Every govt from the beginning of time has had problems and always will. But we choose to hand ours over to the intellectually challenged to send a message.Either that or Russia just fixed the votes. I think some people are just bored. Sad..over and out.You are still caught up in the belief that there was a difference between the Dems and the Reps.
I know its not entirely obvious, but for a quarter century the difference between Dems and Reps was nil, there was enough politicians on BOTH sides that had sold out America and were on the take, accepting millions from Corporations, Saudi Royals, Chinese Billionaires etc.
This corruption has been under attack since 2010. It started with outraged Americans that they labeled 'Tea Party' and then the government went after those people in the 2012 elections, using the IRS and FBI to hinder or shut down their efforts.
The resistance to the corrupt 'establishment' so well represented by candidate Hillary Clinton and her erased Server, destroyed cell phones, and immunity to the law, grew large enough to get Donald Trump elected.
Trump had identified the growing anger and frustration of Americans with what they recognized as a corrupt and criminal Congress, Executive Branch, and overall Establishment.
By establishment I mean everything, the IRS that targeted 'conservatives' in 2012, the FDA that is run by former Monsanto employees, the CIA that was run by a registered Communist, the constant promises and phony rants by politicians that did nothing when they got in office, and Obama for many was the biggest disappointment of all.
What did Obama do for America? He promised to end wars, but nothing ended while he was President, it only escalated, the world was awash in terrorist attacks, and America continued to topple other nations under his 'leadership'.
Obama promised to unite America and be more transparent than any previous Administration, yet he hid everything, had scandal after scandal that he refused to address (IE - Fast and Furious, Benghazi) and he practically supported the growing violence against our police starting his tenure with stating Cambridge police acted stupidly in arresting somebody, and ending it after 5 police were assassinated with a speech about how it was essentially America's fault this had happened.
Trump isn't a Republican, they fought harder to keep him from winning the primaries than the Democrats did during the national election. Trump is the manifestation of people sick and tired of their Government screwing them over and crapping on them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2XnHfFfbgcTrump is the end result of the the right-wing media and lobbying extremism. Half the Tea Party talking points were created by lobbyists. I was part of that, writing sometimes 25 letters a day to go all across the nation with all the catch phrases brought to them by Washington's corporations. I'm not debating the nation has issues, I already stated that.
If you believe that, you are really out of touch with the real facts and didn't even bother to watch that video clip I linked.
That 'right wing media' mantra is what the rest of the MSM media is pumping out as to why this has happened.
Trump happened because he was saying the things 70, 80, 90 million + Americans are thinking and feeling. That the system is corrupt, both sides of the aisle, the Media, the Fed Agencies, everything and anything in the D.C. belt.
He represents a growing portion of the populace that the media can no longer reach, control, or program with their propaganda.Wow, Mr. Burgess, when you're not talking about Russia you can make a lot of sense.
