First of all, I am white (Italian descent). A facebook friend posted on his page that he was proud to be white. There also was a picture of the confederate flag on his page to go along with his post. I felt like this was racist and wanted to delete him. I believe he is racist, however, I am now curious. Why is it okay to be proud to be black, Latino, etc... But saying proud to be white comes off as racist?
Do you agree? What are your thoughts? Please, no bashing on races or ethnicities.
The stars and bars have long been a symbol of racism. I'm sure your friend knows that. There's nothing wrong with being proud of your culture or race, as long as you do not disparage that of others.
I'm proud to hear you say that, Randy. After moving to Tennessee from New Jersey, I was shocked to find racism alive and supported by the good 'ole boys who fly the Confederate flag - in their windows, on their clothes, and in the back of their pickups. Although I would welcome the expertise of men like yourself, who know how to handle a gun and survive should we ever be invaded, I don't like the idea of some of these boys who are still fighting "the war". (I've been told "honey, when we talk 'bout the war down here, we're only talkin' 'bout one war".)
I find it amazing how a war that pit bother against brother is still thought of as a war that, "was not won by the right side!" I live in North Carolina and in some more rural parts racism is still going strong as well. I know many people from New York that are proud to be from the country they hail from. Not necessarily the color of their skin.
I want to just say this guy isn't my friend. Just someone I went to school with. I know that he put the confederate flag up deliberately - after all it's a bit too coincidental that he did that one day before MLK day.
I just wonder if simply saying proud to be white is racist. It feels racist to me but since other ethnicities freely show their pride I wonder why that does not bother me so much.
Perhaps it's because we live in a country where minorities have been persecuted. Saying I'm proud may just be a way to empower a class of people that has had it a bit harder. I'm just guessing here.
I appreciate all the comments here. Everyone has made some really great points.
To think that one is special in some way because of their race is to be a racist.
Thoughts like "Proud to be black" ARE racist.
All forms of racism are dangerous because they convince the person that they aren't an individual, and that their rights come from somewhere other than nature.
I disagree, Evan. It is only racism if you only like your own race and think others are inferior. Like Libertarians, for example. (kidding you, of course!)
To classify yourself into a group that is determines solely on birth is to be racist.
"To classify yourself into a group that is determines solely on birth is to be racist."
Doesn't the US census form ask for racial / ethnic identity?
To my knowledge, every society that exists today was created along racial lines (including language and religion). Racial recognition seems to be part of Human nature --perhaps even its driving force. One could argue, at least based on human history, that race does produce for its people (group): Safety, security, acceptance, stability , preservation of cultural heritage.
I think we should all be proud of who we are.
I'm proud to be Libertarian (sorry Randy, but personal freedom is a really big deal with me... and I don't think anyone is inferior).
I'm proud to be an American and I don't apoloigize to anyone for that.
I'm proud to be a cancer survivor.
I'm proud to be the mother of two beautiful and exceptional young women.
I'm proud to be a woman.
I'm proud to own my own business.
I'm proud to be a lot of things.
There is nothing wrong being proud of yourself. I don't even think there is anything wrong with the guy who is proud to be a rasist, if that's what he truly is. But this white kid with the flag, he just said he was proud to be white. As far as putting up the confederate flag, well I had a flag with Santa on it up at my house this past Christmas, that doesn't make me an elf, does it.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. You make a valid point and congrats on being a cancer survivor. I lost my father and my favorite cousin to cancer. It's definitely something to be proud of!
I disagree, racism is hating someones race and everything about it.
Being proud of who you are is self esteem
Being proud of your achievements is one thing.
Being proud of being born from one person instead of another is completely different. It's racist.
I'm proud to be an American, white and female.
I feel no hate toward any race.
That may be how you secretly feel, but don't say I do.
GOOD On YOU...
See..... It Helps to have Big Oranges!
That's fine. I have no problem with you being proud. But by organizing yourself into a group, you see yourself as NOT part of OTHER groups.
These groups that you are forming are entirely based off of birth.
Evan, do you therefore believe that the existence of a racially homogeneous society is in itself a racist society?
i think i've made my position clear. if you group people - even yourself - for any reason - even beneficial - on solely "by birth" determinations, it is racist.
Thus, a diverse population would not be racist if it didn't judge itself, in any way, by their birth.
Thus a non-diverse population would not be racist if it did not judge itself, in any way, by their birth.
The opposite statements of both sentences are also true.
I agree, I do not think that being proud of the pigmentation of one's skin color is racist. That sounds more like something the Government would start to bring about a race war. Even the ACLU does not believe that stating your proud of your skin color is racist. That right there should tell you something.
I've heard all kinds of racial remarks against white people.
Laughing about our skin color. How do you know the guy didn't go through a lot concerning being white?
I'm also proud to be white. Calling me whitey doesn't hurt me.
They( the ones who don't like people for being proud) consider saying you're proud to be white as being racist, because their dislike for us is very strong.
Whoever thinks we are wrong to say we are proud to be white.
You know, your subject...
Ah..who IS they?
Alex Haley reminded Americans that many blacks had no idea where in Africa their descendants came from. I think this is why it became popular to be black, instead of Senegalese, Nigerian, etc. I don't really like the labels black and white, but I can understand the black point of view there.
The Confederate flag, whether it deserved it or not, came to represent Southerners against ending slavery for good. I've always felt that the flag should be put away for good, out of consideration for blacks with roots in slavery.
Pride is defined as:
1. a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc.
2. the state or feeling of being proud.
3. a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem.
4. pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself: civic pride.
Pride seems to be the opposite meaning of the word humility. I believe the word pride, or to be proud of oneself can be construed as being self centered. I am curious what everyone else thinks?
Hi James Poppell,
"A high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority"
When you look at it that way, it does seem that pride can be similar to self-centeredness. When you look at the third definition, however, it defines pride as self respect or self esteem, which are good things.
I agree with a lot of the comments here about having pride in your accomplishments. Maybe we shouldn't be so proud of things that are not of our control (skin color, race, heritage) and instead be proud of the things we do. For example, should you just be pround of being an American or be proud of what you've contributed as an American citizen? I think the latter makes more sense.
I can only speak as a woman, who happens to have dark skin. I believe when a Afro-American says, they're proud to be black. I believe they are really saying, I am not ashamed to be black. I will not be ashamed of the color of my skin, I will not see myself as inferiority. I may come from a generation who were slaves, but I am black, beautiful and proud. We are saying, I will not carry the shame and reproach many of my forefathers. When a black person says they are proud to be black, it is a declaration of equality!
Well said, 2besure. I like that explanation very much!
"I can only speak as a woman, who happens to have dark skin. I believe when a Afro-American says, they're proud to be black."
It should hv ended there. The rest is Pavlov dog nonsense designed to guilt -trip white people. This is a game black Americans play and white people must not SUBMIT to it any longer. The guilt-tripping has a very serious objective to African-Americans:: YOU MR AND MS WHITE AMERICA,, YOU WRONGED ME & THEREFORE YOU OWE ME! African Americans hv been cashing this guilt ticket for over 45 years. White people, at SOME point you must say to them...ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
"those darn black people and their guilt games!!"
Mocking, Mr Canadian? Very serious business in America, Greeek. As African Americans economic situation worsens in America, this "you wronged me therefore you owe me " is now beginning to take on a whole new dimension:: VIOLENCE. Pay me or else!
i read what you wrote...
then i read your profile...
then I decided to mock you from all the way up here in Canada.
If it helps any, I pretty sure I would have mocked you even if I lived in the States
Does free speech which mocks your position antagonize you?
BTW, if you want to mock me go ahead...water off a ducks back. But, how about a little financial support for the victims of the this guilt tripping game? How much are you willing to give brave one?
http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/v … set_size=1
I don't know... why don't you and your friends have a vote before the next lynching and let me know what you think is fair?
I would have stated it differently, but I pretty much think the same way as you do. And I am black, how ironic. I feel for whoever my ancestors were, but history is history. The past is not where I am right now, and there's no reason to constantly bring it back as if I could claim to have suffered even 10% of what black people had to endure some decades ago. The only thing I'm really proud of is of the fact that mankind (all of it) can actually learn from its mistakes every once in a while. It's amazing how much equality was achieved in such relatively short time, from Luther King's days to now.
The part where I disagree is when you say that every African American is intentionally trying to guilt trip white people. I think that, to some extent, the need of constant self-validation that some black people demonstrate may come from education by older relatives and stuff, who are probably more aware of the racial issues that existed not too long ago and didn't really get over it.
??? Really not following your
logic! Any guilt you feel you must examine why it is there. I am merely stating, I am black, I am bright, beautiful and by the grace of God, I am here! I make no excuses for my existence. If that causes you a twinge of guilt, I find that very
I make no apologies for how others feel, because I affirm myself.
you should be grateful for the gift of integration that white christian males gave you.....
I hate to advertise my ignorance, but I don't think slavery was ever an issue in Canada. Please don't advertise ignorance by proclaiming that desegregation in the United States was a gift. It was hard fought and many of all racies bled and died to return the God given gift of equality.
Apparently, this dude has never been to Charlotte, or he wouldn't be in your face with this nonsense.
I'm proud to be who I am. I am white, but to me, race doesn't matter. We're all humans, so why not start a facebook page "Proud to be Human"?
I believe that if you make something about race, that isn't really about race, then it's racist. I see no problem in being proud that you are black, white, native american, Hispanic, etc. All you are saying is, is that you are not ashamed. Now some may mean more, but unless you can really get into their head, you can't accurately tell.
It has indeed become quite PC to be proud of the accident of birth which you have no control over that determines your race. Unless you happen to be white; then you are expected to apologize for that same accident.
Why? I have little idea. Perhaps it is one way to increase self esteem; if you can be somehow better than white it elevates one. Perhaps it is revenge for actions of long dead ancestors that in many cases several races have in their family trees.
Whatever the reason I can find to reason to be proud of something that you can't control, that doesn't truly affect who or what you are, that is all too often simply used as an excuse to abuse someone else whatever race you might be.
Agreed. I'm proud to be white. If I were black, I'd be proud to be black. If I were red, I'd be proud to be red. Nothing wrong with embracing the positive aspects of your heritage.
Wilderness and Habee,
I agree about embracing your heritage but is that the same as being proud? I think it's different. I think the word 'pride' has an arrogant feel to it. Do you agree?
Well, in that case, I'm proud to be all colorful and stuff!
I agree with Randy.
I've got some forefathers with confederate tombstones....nothing the least bit shameful about that.
Very few whites owned slaves in the Civil War era South - as in all wars, mostly the poor died in the fighting.
If Iran nuked us tomorrow, then we'd likely "deserve" that due to the USA's outlandish meddling in the affairs of nations far far away for the sole purpose of corporate greed.
Millions of persons who were poor would be killed in such an attack, persons who were a part of a system they were born into, but weren't benefiting much from.
Surely it was the exact same thing with most Confederate soldiers - they might have been viciously racist, somewhat racist, or absolutely not racist - but besides all of that, were just poor, and wanting to defend their homeland.
So being proud of who you are and where you're from, etc, is all perfectly healthy....and while I'm proud to be me, I don't think I'd represent myself well with my already shaved head in a Confederate flag t shirt.
I guess I could pose for a picture with a chicken fried steak?
Wes - you make an excellent point here. "Very few whites owned slaves in the Civil War era South - as in all wars, mostly the poor died in the fighting".
The same holds true today. Those in power hold the trump and the rest die to preserve that, as you said.
While the expressions are very similar, the actual use of the phrase has different purpose and meaning. Most cultural and/or racial pride is a mechanism used to overcome oppression. It is used to give value to those that have and are devalued in society. As a black male I can tell you that the term "Black Pride" in no way enforces a superior attitude, rather it is used to instill self-esteem. I would guess that its use within other ethnic groups have a similar history.
As far as "White Pride" is concerned, I will have to allow judgement of its use to those who use it.
SOBF - (son of black father?) Thank you for a most sincere explanation. As a white female who grew up in the early fifties and sixties, the image of Black Pride was one of Panthers and to us had little to do with self esteem and more to do with rebellion. Maybe in those days it did but it probably amounted to the same thing. The radicals started the movement in what was then a hostile way, but the heart of the matter was as you explained it.
couturepopcafe - Thanks for your comment.
The vision that you have been fed of the Panther organization is one that was built on propaganda. This I can attest to because I lived the life of a Panther child. I'm not sure how providing free school lunches, free medical care, and encouraging education equates to rebellion. The aggressive sect within the Panther organization was born after attacks on its members.
You have also confused "Black Pride" with "Black Power" the latter being used by the Panthers. Black Pride was coined during the Civil Rights movement and came from the movements of both MLK and Malcolm X.
Ah, yes, Black Power. I remember now. I was a very young at the time, too, and never really knew what it stemmed from.
SOBF:: "The vision that you have been fed of the Panther organization is one that was built on propaganda. This I can attest to because I lived the life of a Panther child. I'm not sure how providing free school lunches, free medical care, and encouraging education equates to rebellion. "
NONSENSE. BP was a criminal organization of unemployed black males. Blacks never supported this criminal org. with their own money.
Ten points in BP manifesto :
1. We want freedom. We want power to determine the destiny of our black Community.
We believe that black people will not be free until we are able to determine our destiny. (sounds like self-determination demand. From black males in america?)
2. We want full employment for our people.
8. We want freedom for all black men held in federal, state, county and city prisons and jails.
9 . We want all black people when brought to trial to be tried in court by a jury of their peer group or people from their black communities, as defined by the Constitution of the United States.
All of these expressed points are clearly possible if blacks colonized a place in America, which they certainly had FREEDOM to do (1865 to 1964). Blacks also had a historic right, as a distinct people, to demand a homeland in America to achieve self-determination. Blacks NEVER collectively organized for separation from the white man, at least not his tax base. Neither did the Black Panthers want this type of separation i.e. self-determination. Malcolm X, same type of demand.
More disgusting acts from BP:
The Minister of Information for the Black Panthers was none other than parolee Eldridge Clever, a certified, bona fide, serial rapists (of white females). His last victim survived his murder attempt (after his rape) by playing dead.
H. Rap Brown, Black Panther Party Minister of Justice (1968):
"Huey Newton [bragged about murder of a white police officer and currently in jail] is our only living revolutionary in this country today...He has paid his dues. He has paid his dues. How many white folks did you kill today?"
AGAIN, a revolution is about one people, claiming oppression by another people, they demand and/or fight for self-determination. This is not civil rights struggle.
"Civil Rights movement '
King's "movement" had nothing to do with Civil rights - misnomer white people should be determined to correct. It was an integration movement --a first of its kind in human history. White Christian males (lawmakers) created integration - in 1964 - to help the black males improve his economic situation. PERIOD
Black Americans were oppressed. White Americans were not. King had everything to do with Civil rights. Where are you gathering your information from? Wikipedia? I am not trying to be rude, but honestly you need to read real history.
AEvans, a people cannot be FREE and be oppressed at the same time. Blacks were a free people, free to build their own cities, towns, industries, political environments, or colonize a place in America.
Civil rights involves ONE people , one male group, where , within that male groups established society , there exists a subordinated group and that group is subordinated by birth. Specifically, it is Western Civilization description of the struggles between white Aristocracy and its commoners. African Americans DO NOT fit here. They were a separate people , a situation COMPLETELY consistent with human history and existing American laws(!)and were suppose to be - encouraged to be - a self-reliant people. African Americas' particular struggle, unprecedented in human history, was for integration rights into another peoples' established society (his status environment, his political arena, his residential communities). INCREDIBLY, white Christian males agreed to the across-the board integration demands of the black race. A first in human history. It was what ONE people did for another people. Blacks were the recipient of a GREAT - and unprecedented - GIFT.
Meh, I guess I don't agree with you as much as I thought. You're painting a prettier picture for black people than it really was in reality, as others have already pointed out. Plus, blacks did not receive a gift - they, just like any other people, are entitled to equality for the simple fact that they are humans too. It's a gift to allow dogs into our homes to eat and sleep comfortably all day long instead of making them hunt down their lunch. It's not a gift to make laws stating that black people and white people should not be segregated, deserve the same work opportunities, etc etc.
A gift from White Americans? Was this the same gift that enslaved Black Americans and raped their women? White Americans believed they were doing them a favor? All people are entitled to equality, all people are entitled to be treated with respect. Why are you trying to divide A vs B? Black Americans had to fight to for their equality. White people stood by the sidelines and kept them down for many years.
There is not any pure White race and should you find them please let me know. Wikipedia is down today.
Would you not agree ALL woman in America were oppressed at one time?
I'll agree with that and go as far as to say that people are still trying to do it.
I agree with Couturpopcafe. This is a very sincere explanation. I never believed "black pride" to be a statement of superiority. I see it more as a term used to empower one another.
Most people who use the term "white pride" are supremacists. There is a new movement amoung young white people who are having a knee jerk reaction to Latino and Black programming, like B.E.T. They weren't around in the day and don't understand the necessity. They wonder why there isn't W.E.T. and are pressing the issue. Of course, there isn't a real need for WET, it has always been nothing but WET.
Around here, the young country boys are proud to be Florida Crackers or rednecks. They don't associate it with race. They like hip-hop, too. They just want to do their thing and be left alone to do it. Overall, the races are getting along much better around here, and it makes for a mellower community than back in the day.
Personally, when I tried to run my family tree, they had a power dip in Salt Lake city. Most people think of me as white, but I am really calico.
I would rather be proud of the fact that I am an Indian... (and of the Indian Culture) than discriminate as white/black, rich/poor or Hindu/Muslim or whatever.
I agree with Wilderness that whatever you are merely as the result of an accident of birth is not a valid reason for pride - or for shame, for that matter.
White is just a color. I think being proud of your heritage and culture is anchored in something more that just being in amongst the disparate groups that share that color.
Great question - I am proud of my Scots-Irish, English, Danish, French, and German heritage because of my genealogy only. I come from a long line of strong, determined pioneer women who persevered against overwhelming adversity. That has nothing to do with being white. I'd be just as proud if I were "brown".
Randy, WT, wilderness, and habee are all correct. The stars and bars were basically the soldiers' battle flag. Tens of thousands of men, and women for that matter, gave their lives defending their country against what they felt was federal tyranny at the time. Yes, the planter aristocracy wanted to keep slavery in the agricultural south, but as WT pointed out the common man or woman in the South generally owned no slaves. Remember, it hadn't been but a few decades since the North industrialized and traded physical slavery for what amounted to wage slavery in the new factories. Its a cryin' shame that idiots and haters have besmirched the true meaning of that battle flag; and everyone should be proud of their heritage in a spirit of communion and concord with other heritages.
It would be nice if we all considered ourselves Americans. Lose the adjectives like Italian American, African American, German American, and the list goes on. Color shouldn't even come into play in my opinion.
I'm an American Mutt.
I dislike the term "white" very much. Jewish folks are most often just as "white" as I am, and they most often wouldn't like the term "white" either.
I wouldn't know what the percentage would be....but a huge number of us "white folks" have some Native American blood in us, and I certainly do.
So I'm just an American Mutt with a light complexion....or, just another "white boy" depending on who you ask.
I wouldn't be too surprised at all to discover some African American somewhere in my DNA. It's not much important to me, and shouldn't be important to anyone.
What was that M.L.K. said, something about judging a person by the content of their character? That's the right idea.
Happy Birthday M.L.K.
That's right! MLK got it right when he said that.
Happy Birthday Martin Luther King Jr!
Wes, it's funny you're saying that. I come from a Sicilian and Barese heritage (and some Portuguese). My Sicilian grandfather used to say "Sicily's only a boatride away from Africa" meaning there is very likely intermingled blood.
Couturepopcafe- You are right. Italians are intermingled with African and Middle Eastern blood. Especially in the south. My ancestors are Calabrese, which is the southern most part of Italy. I guess I was wrong to call myself white. I'm just a mutt! lol!
Good point Old and Wise. My parents are from Italy but I never tell people I'm Italian-American. I am just American. In fact I never bring up my nationality, unless someone asks.
White pride AND black pride are both silly as there is no attribute that either race has that is common to all it's members. The only unifying trait is skin color. So essentially, you are saying "Damn, I'm glad I'm not another race". So yeah, that's kinda racist.
Being proud of your race has nothing to do with not wanting to be another race..use logic
LMAO! Tell me what we share then Deborah... you know to be proud of.
Damn I'm proud that I get nasty sunburns!
Other than that, I got nothing. So tell me why I should be proud of my race again?
Alot of the southern peeps are like that, I'm sure we have them up here as well in the North, but I've never seen the flags up here in Michigan much!
Easy On Your Reference to 'Southern Peeps' Mate!
The Southern World Stretches a lot further than Mobile btw...
In NZ we don't even use your Flag... But even if we did... We'd Still Be Pretty Proud That We ARE ALL PINK On The Inside!
Besides... I thought Michigan had been sold to the GREEN-IES by the banks Last Year!
Some people are genuinely "proud to be white." But many who do claim that, have an ulterior motive, like they're sticking it to black people. Or they put up a Confederate flag just to piss people off. Because white pride is not a strong motif as black pride is. But it is a strong motif among Neo-Nazis and KKK sympathizers.
"Black pride" has more of a cultural connotation--as in, one is proud of being a member of African American culture. Blackness is often a cultural designation. By contrast, the culture of white people is far more diverse (because there are so many more of them), so claiming white pride is a bit like claiming "I'm proud to be human." There's not much there to work with.
I think if someone is literally proud of the amount of melanin in their skin, that's pretty weird. And sad. Indicates they don't have much else going for them. But being proud of a culture or community that you choose to be a part of, makes more sense, because of the element of choice.
As others have stated above there is no reason to be especially proud of the colour of one's skin.
The issue with this is that it is a proclamation of racist organisations, it is not a racist statement in itself - except by association.
There is no common linkage between 'white' people other than where people of light-colored skin have classified themselves as a group superior to others.
Therefore, I do not have 'pride' in my skin's pigmentation.
Pride should come from something we have achieved, rather than something we are. No one chooses their race or eye colour, or gender or their family etc. Being proud of skin colour is illogical, and might suggest that someone who is, has nothing else to be proud of.
Proud to be white is not a complete statement. So why give a complete answer? I am proud to be human and have feelings towards fellow human beings and we are all human.
"Proud to be white" is a banana skin that invites people to trip and fall on it.
We are too smart to be fooled by that anymore.
I'm totally proud to be white, I also proud to be a skeleton image on a black backdrop, does that make me racist against black skeleton images against white backdrops?
To say that "I am proud to be brown" isn't that nice. Color does not define my identity. We all have a "heart" and that is the most important thing. We can be proud of what we fought for, history we had, what we had accomplished and the things that we cherish!!
I have no particular pride about my skin color.... I don't even think about it... this is an interesting question that you raise and for some reason it made me think of James Brown's song "Say It Loud, I'm Black And Proud." To me it was necessary to say it for him because so many white people tried to make blacks feel ashamed for being black. But James Brown said screw all that.. .I'm proud of who and what I am and nobody can take that from me. Society was making him find pride in himself for just being black. It had nothing to do with accomplishment. It had to do with self-esteem. It seems for him to get to a normal level of self-esteem he had to summon a tremendous amount of bravado to overcome the attempts of others to put him down.
It confuses me.
I don't know why I should be "proud to be white". I didn't paint myself and I don't control the melanin in my skin.
I don't know why I should be proud to be anything where I had no control or influence.
As to my heritage, well, there are some folks back there who did some great things and there are plenty more who did not and I'm sure there are some I wouldn't like very much at all.
I'm not particularly "proud" about anything, really. Happy is good enough for me. Being lucky enough to be born into an upper middle class family probably had a lot to do with everything that made me "happy", so I guess at the heart of it, I'm happy to have been lucky and I wish more of us were.
I am proud to be an American PERIOD!! The rest is just ingredients like in a soup. I am so tired of the PC labels and those who get offended over minor words.
Is the Confederate flag a symbol of racism? It was the flag of the Confederate States of America. If you equate the flag as racist because of there views on slavery, then you must consider all the flags of Africa racist. After all, it was the people of Africa that sold the slaves to America.
One more thing, why is nobody upset over the 22 million or so current slaves in the world today?
With regards to equating the Confederate flag with racism, it is clear that the Confederacy was an inherently racist entity created so that the Confederate states could keep subjecting blacks, without the North's objections. Even in when laying out their "Declaration of Causes", the confederates where clear...
For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property,
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth
But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution.
The Confederacy's owed its very existence for being to the desire to hold onto the existence of slavery, which in itself was justified by racial terms
if you are proud to be American, I would suppose that you would see the Confederate flag as one of high treason and disloyalty, if not racism?
No I do not see the confederate flag as treason. I see it as part of our history. That flag was flown by the confederate state during the civil war. The Civil war was a part of our history, unlike say passing country secrets to the enemy, That is treason.
Really, so a flag is treason? what did it do, what law did it violate? Show me the docket where a flag was arrested and charged with treason.
Ok I was being a wiseass there and I apologize. Of course a flag cannot commit treason. Did it stand for an ideal that is not widely accepted, yes. But that ideal is not racist. To claim slavery is racist, one woulds have to say or agree that only type of people are slaves. Now there was one that was dominately slaves here in the US in that time period, but not world wide. In fact today there are over 22 million slaves in the world today. I wonder why we do not hear much about that.
I wish that slavery never happened in our past or is still going on today. It is a major violation of a persons rights, their right to exist above all of them. But lets be honest, discrimination and racism would still have existed. Not letting woman vote, being over weight, not being the smartest, being the smartest, being poor, having too much money, and a whole lot more. Will it ever end?
Don't get sucked into the argument. They would blast you for waving the American flag and then they would declare waving the stars and bars as an act of treason against the American flag that they would ridicule if you waved it... see the circle?
You can't win. They should just say the only thing they believe in is themselves and all else is fools play... that is the belief.
hmmm... Could it not be part of your history AND treason?
After all, it is symbol of an effort that was the greatest threat the unity of the US and it's constitution, an attempt to permanently divide the country into two, and resulted in millions of American deaths in battles against the government forces.
The leaders themselves were even indicted for treason although of course pardoned by Mr. Johnson, of course.
What if a certain state was to take up arms against the US today, would that not be treason?
I do not write history, the only history I was a part of was as a fireghter at ground zero on 911, rest of my life has no historical significance.
The civil war began because several southern declared their secession from the United States and formed the Confederate States of America. Now that was done peacefully. If you consider that breakaway treason, what do you call what the colonies did to England? Now the civil war started when the north attacked the south first. That battle as we know from history was at Fort Sumter. Immediatly after 4 more states withdrew from the nation and joined the confederate states. That first attack was April, 1861
The reason the southern states pulled out was because Lincoln and the Republicans had campaigned against expanding slavery beyond the states in which it already existed. It was not till September, 1962, some 17 months after hostilities began, that Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation, which made ending slavery a war goal. It was not till 17 months after the war started before ending slavery was even a thought. Not expanding slavery was the issue that started the session movment, not ending slavery.
Now if the south then or even today just took up arms against the US then yes you are correct that would be treason. But what if New York citizens voted to become independent away from the US, do you considerthat treason? I think you would agree they are two different subjects.
One cannot change the facts about history, though many try to push there agenda. Look it up, do not take my word for it. In fact I will even help you look it up
As per your first point... The declaration of succession was done peacefully, but by their nature, all such declarations are peaceful. However, the hostilities resulting from that deceleration first began when secessionists fired upon US troops at Fort Sumter in 1961 forcing them to give up the fort. The war that followed led to the death of millions of your fellow citizens.
As for your second point.. I agree, the Union did not enter the war to end slavery. Lincoln merely wanted to preserve the Union and the Constitution. The South however, did enter it to preserve the institution and it's spread. That makes the Confederacy's very nature one that was based on slavery and the underlying racism that justified it.
As for your third point... If New York voted to succeed it would not be treason in my mind(although I am not a legal expert). However, if they took up arms to affect their vote against the forces of the United States, or used force against the US government when it was exercising it's legal authority, then yes, that would be treason.
It is natural that descendants of the Confederacy should want to feel pride when thinking about their ancestors. I am sure that there are grandchildren of Luffwaffe pilots that want to think fondly of their grandpas. But the fact remains that the Confederacy was an treasonous entity constructed out of an attachment to slavery and it's economic and social benefits.
I haven't wrote any history texts myself... but as someone with a degree in US history, I sure as hell had to read more than should be humanly allowable.
It is sad that you define yourself as the color "white", When you should know that you are more than that. You are racist, you turned a day that should be celebrating the release of slaves and equal rights into a day to feel superior over another's race. I am grateful people of color have risen up and became greater than anyone thought possible. good luck to barack obama!!
I'm not a racist. I never meant to give that impression. I was offended by a comment on facebook that appeared to be hateful towards black people on MLK Day. I was curious to see what other people thought. I don't understand how you could even think that. I apologize if I have offended you but I am offended that you would label me a racist.
I've been in America some 22 years now and there are things that I still can't get to grips with. For example; when asking for a description of someone, Police and medics and most everyone else will ask; "What nationality is he?" How can we claim to be "One nation, indivisible" and ask a question like that.
Another thing I notice is that America does not have "White gangs' There are Black Gangs, Hispanic gangs, Asian gangs and so on. but when white kids get together they are "White racist gangs" never just a white gang.
What occurs to me about that is that many peoples have a history of suffering and, especially in America, the blame for this is placed on the European. Rightly or wrongly so the effect is that in a melting pot, most youth search for an identity. They find it in their heritage. The unfortunate aspect of race as victim is that the only role left for young white men to find an identity with is that of the oppressor. Otherwise they are left with self hate and that is not going to be popular.
The only real answer is the one mentioned, we must see ourselves as American and become one nation in fact, not just in principle.
Unfortunately, itantoPF, America is still suffering from deep racial divides caused by slavery and Jim Crow laws. It may seem silly to some people that we aren't "over" it by now, the year 2012. But the fact is, these sorts of wounds take many generations to heal. It's getting better, but the scars of slavery are still there. Otherwise, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
I hear what you're saying, but I'm not so sure it's all to do with the scars of slavery. It's partly due to the fact that, as ionto says, there is now another double standard for whites. Instead of minorities rising to the level they deserve, whites had to be torn down and there is a lot of resentment, right or wrong. This is what keeps racism alive. It's the 'perceived' notion that in order for one to get better, the other must give something up. There's plently for all and the game playing with laws imposed by government needs to stop.
There is truth in what you are saying. But I would still argue that America's racial issues are much more difficult than they would otherwise be due to our particularly painful history. If we could look a hundred years into the future, we might see a very different America.
MY SKIN IS LACKING IN MELATONIN SO AS TO ALLOW ME TO GATHER MORE VITAMIN D WHEN EXPOSED TO THE SUN!!
RELATIVE TO YOU I AM DARKER, AND THUS MORE ABLE TO GENERATE VITAMIN D!!
HOWEVER THIS IS COUNTERBALANCED BY THE ISSUE OF MY GETTING SUNBURN QUICKER THAN YOU!!!
I'M PROUD OF THIS!!
It has never occurred to me to be proud of my skin colour. Seems bizarre.
The thing that I struggle with is patriotism and that pride in your country. Like religion, I find it dangerous. It is over such beliefs that people fight wars and commit atrocities.
So I don't like it. The flag waving, the Queen (I'm from the UK), the Land of Hope and Glory crap. Not for me.
But heck. I need something to have pride in. I'm going to tell you. It's the best thing in the world, and you can stick racism, patriotism, or any of the other isms.
I'm proud to be a father.
Ayup. I'll second that.
As to patriotism, I hate saying it because I know it riles up the small brains, but I agree with you: anyone who wraps themselves in the flag of unquestioning patriotism is a fool or a very dangerous person. Last refuge of scoundrels, as we know.
As long as I'm going to get whalloped with hatred for saying that, I might as well go full hog: whenever I see someone choose an eagle or an American flag as their icon here, I automatically think less of them. That's not always justified, but it is an instantaneous gut reaction. I do try to look beyond that and sometimes I find a good person, but, oh boy, that initial reaction does make it tough.
Betcha a dollar my hubber score drops five points for being honest about that as the flag wavers rush to vote down every hub of mine they can find :-)
I say, does it really matter what a person believes, whether they choose a flag avatar or some silly multi-colored wig? . How much of an impression are we willing to take from one tiny little pic? Most people have many facets but the need to choose one tiny little pic is just a tiny little thing.
I hear what you're saying, pc, because I do the same thing. It's almost impossible not to and I'm often very suprised to learn what's behind that avatar or why it was picked (or pic-ed).
That's why I said I do force myself to look beyond my initial prejudice.
Hubscore has already dropped one point
No way. It wasn't me. And I believe you because.
"That's why I said I do force myself to look beyond my initial prejudice".
Well it was good to admit you suffer form discrimination and racism, but it is views like yours that keep those visions in motion. I am sure their are people who look at your picture and think you are a doofuss. Do you think that is right or are you pissed I said that? If you are pissed think aqbout that the next time you look at an avatar and come to your discininatory conclusion.
I am very proud to call myself a patriot. I had a wonderful collection of eagles in my office, I also use to fly a flag at my home everyday. Now to you, there is something wrong with me. Now despite the fact you do not have the same emotional attachment to this country, I do not look at you as foolish or dangerous. You claim others have the small brain, I think you need to self search first before making such statements again. I do believe someone who disriminates over a picture would be someone who has a small brain.
On a side not, hubscores go up and down for many reasons, not just because someone does the childesh move you do by taking time to go to others hubs you do not agree with and vote them down.
That is quite an allegation, AV! Please post your proof that PC does what you say or either apologize to him. Anyone so patriotic as you should have no problem doing either if they are true to their word.
I'm interested in knowing how you find out when someone votes down a hub.
Pc has been here for a while and I give him credit is much better than he use to be. He use to fly off the handle at anyoneone who disagreed with him using shall we say colorful terms aginst them. While he still will on occasion slip one in there, he mostly says he is not answering because he will get real angry. Personally, there is nothing to get angry over in any of these hubs or forums, but I guess it affects others differently.
PC will censor all comments no matter how civil, intellegent and factual if it does not agree with the hub wrote. He would then say the person was " an idiot, unintellegent and just spouting off attacks on him personally". When this forum was discovered he was challenged to republish the comments in his hub so everyone could see the truth, which was none of what PC was claiming. I know this to be true for I was the one he was making the claims about and I was the one who challenged him to undelete the comments so everyone could see the truth. He refused to do so, if he had everyone would have seen the facts.
He also posted a forum claiming he was a victim of a right wing attack. He and the others in that forum went onto that persons hub site, attacked him and voted his hubs down to drive down his score. It worked for a short time, his score tanked but is now back over 90 again.
And lastly, a good police detective will tell you whenever someone tells you a plan, like in this instance PC stating "everyone will vote him down to lower his score", it is because they have done it in the past. For example, ever have a supervisor give you a hard time about taking longer than 15 minutes on a break, or longer the 30 for lunch? If so you will find that person was the biggest abuser of the time limit when they worked. I personally knew a building inspector locally that was the worst builder ever, his homes barely could pass code and fell apart quickly. Since became inspector, he rides everyone about quality , even if the home is built way above code and not even in the ballpark of the crap he use to build. Its kind of funny the way that is.
So Randy, as you can see I just do not make allegations. I do not go around saying inflamatory things like " rile up the small brains". Would you not agree that kind of statement gives good insight into the person who said it?
I didn't challenge you to give me insight, AV! I asked for proof. You knew before I asked you that you had nothing but circumstantial evidence for your allegation. Anyone can make a claim without proof to back it up.
Once again, how can you tell when someone votes down a hub? A hub's score can change even if no one visits it at all, or did you not know this?
HMMMM, I have to believe you read the post since you make a comment on insight but did not answer that question and I expected not less than that. But if you read the article you would have the answer to your question, though I guess you will not accept it, and that is fine too.
I am well aware of what makes a score go up and down. The score is not important to me, so you can go and vote all my articles down if you want. What counts is the content and the accuracy of the content. There are people with scores over 95 who post articles with incorrect information. Like one I read the other day and the person did not know how many states there were, had the nicknames of several of them wrong. Yet the article was a 97 and the hubber had a score of 99. So the score means nothing.
If you "are well aware of what makes a score go up and down" then you have access to info most of us do not. Your post was full of mere speculation unless you have some proof that hubbers ran to the article you mentioned and voted it down and therefore caused the score to fall.
So all you have to do is prove your point, not give your usual slanted "insight" in place of solid proof. Names and how they voted will do just fine. When you do so I will be glad to apologize to you personally. Otherwise, you are full of it!
Just wanted to tell you that I think that you are an AWESOME person, and I hope that you always stay that way.
Why is it considered "racist" to be proud of your whiteness, but not racist to be proud of your blackness, etc? The answer is quite simple. Groups that have traditionally been persecuted can find strength in drawing on their shared heritage to get through difficult times. Just like women tend to band together and be "proud" of being women. Men are generally not expected to do the same thing, because they usually already HAVE the power. When people who are not considered to have a history of persecution "band together" (like whites) it's generally considered distasteful, and a way to further consolidate their power.
Now, we can get into all sorts of discussions about who has power and who doesn't, and the fairness of all of this. But if you try to put yourself in the shoes of people who have historically suffered persecution, it's easier to understand. I personally don't begrudge people who have historically been persecuted their own way of dealing with it. As different groups gain more power in a society, their need to identify so strongly with their separate group diminishes over time.
This type of conversation makes me laugh, but not in a good-natured way. I am white, but I have no heritage, no biological lineage. Given up at birth, I am only a white-skinned person born in America. Nothing more. Nothing less. I envy those who can take pride in their cultural heritage and trace their family geneology. And I always shake my head in wonder at those who would use their heritage and their DNA to promote hate. Culture, heritage, lineage: These are precious and should not be squandered so.
I'm proud to be alive, rest of the other things are useless, adds no value to the life.
It just helps you to stay politically correct among certain groups of the society. So among whites, you have to say that you're proud to be one of them, same goes for blacks or religion. This goes on and on till it hits point of borders, you end up saying, proud to be resident of "xyz country". If you see the bigger picture, you're always the only person who is going to die alone when your time comes. Being proud of any social label doesn't add anything to your life. It just gives you false security of you not being alone in this world.
I'm Proud of All Those Wonderful People Who Came Before Me and Suffered The Beatings, The Lies, The Threats, The Hate Time and Time Again-Blacks, White, Mexicans, Indians, Asians, Etc. In An Effort To Make America A Better Place To Live. They gave and gave unto death.
My skin is very good at processing vitamin D, handy for living up north with less hours of daylight in the winter, is this a reason to feel pride?
My genetic heritage is only partly known to me, and what I know isn't exactly riveting stuff. Supposedly on my Mom's side we are direct descendants of Joseph Smith but thats not exactly special considering how many kids he had.
I don't know, I tend to be proud of my successes and some of my failures, mostly because, at least I tried.
Similarly, I am more proud in the winter months when my skin is a pasty white.
I use SPF 45 suntan lotion and where large hats in the summer so as to protect myself from tanning, and thus maintain my healthy, white-based self-esteem
i am not agree with the white and black because i am agree with intelligent and educated people so that all friends change our mind.....?
This "my people" crap has got to go.
Look at how the two people hate each other, or at least don't respect each other, for any reason other than "their people" didn't get along.
"This "my people" crap has got to go."
It can ... but EVERYONE must agree to let it go. That is, everyone must renounce the existence of their group. Jews must renounce their group. Blacks must renounce the existence of their African American group; black Muslims must also renounce their group (could you IMAGINE?!). Mormons must renounce; Chinese must renounce (down with China towns?). All the hundreds (thousands?) of hyphenated American groups must all renounce the existence of their group. A herculean task to be sure...
A person once told me that all ecological problems could be solved if only humans would learn how to fly like birds. I thought that sounded really good, but...
four brothers , two join the union, two the confederacy . they didn't own slaves never hoped to . didn't like the practice . and sure as hell didn't fight in that war for slavery reasons. one of those brothers gave his life at the Battle of Port Republic June 9 1862. He was a confederate soldier .He died for his state. He saw men as men .
The stars and bars was his flag. Proud of my family's history in this country and their personal conduct . were more a tan , pink people.
Being proud of an accident of fate is dumb. Your color, faith, and nationality (in most cases) are not something you earned, just something that happened. Be proud that you're an honorable person, or that you worked hard to make a better life for yourself or others.
Nothing wrong with being proud of whatever culture you have learned from - I personally don't feel it has anything to do with your skin pigmentation. Good to understand that there is much to learn from every culture, not only the one you feel comfortable with. When you find yourself waving a flag that represents something exclusive, maybe that's a good time to examine your heritage, what you have learned, and how open your mind is to new experience and teachings. Pride goeth before a fall (which I understand to mean, you get yourself too proud you may be taken down a few pegs!)
Had my ego been based on the degree to which I was 'proud to be white', all my self-esteem would have gone out the window after watching just one episode of Hillbilly Handfishin'
Anyone who is proud to be any color needs to get over themselves. They are not anymore special than anyone else.
Pride should not be associated with something related to your birth. It should be associated with something related to what you do after your birth.
Proud to be an honest millionaire.
Proud to be a self-made man.
Proud to be a guitarist.
Proud to be a scientist.
Proud to be a successful human being.
Proud to be a social worker.
Proud to be a white or black or any other ethnicity.
Proud to be an American or Chinese or Eskimo.
Proud to be a female or male.
Proud to be a human being.
Proud to be a Christian or Muslim.
Proud to be the son of a millionaire father.
At the end of the day only proper judgement counts.
I have a tendency of seeing us all as citizens of the Earth, so I am not proud to be of any particular race or impressed or appalled by any culture. However, I am grateful for the opportunity to experience life on this planet and learn from every culture and human being that I may meet. I have had the pleasure to be friends with different races and belief systems and at the core we are all from the same Source.
More on slavery in (what would become) Canada...
By the end of the 1700s more and more people were against slavery. In 1793, John Graves Simcoe, Lieutenant-Governor of Upper Canada, managed to get a law passed that stopped slaves from being brought to Upper Canada. It also made sure that any children born into slavery would be given their freedom at age 25. In this way, slavery gradually died out in Upper Canada.
Although other places did not pass the same law, slavery began to disappear in these places too. In Lower Canada, Chief Justice William Osgoode refused to convict runaway slaves. When Britain stopped slavery in 1834, there were only a few old slaves left in British North America. All the others had received their freedom.
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