Female dominance
I just popped on here to find that this discussion is now going on in two different threads on here.
I haven't been on here too much recently because my ex-husband and I have been spending hours and hours of time together, putting peach organza ribbons and flowers on little party favors for our daughter's big party. (Yes, he's "ex", but - trust me - it has nothing to do with his willingness to compromise his masculine appearance when it comes to what he'll do for his kids.) Anyway...
I think it may more be that smart, strong, women aren't willing to "go with the traditional program" (written in ideas of another time) that contributes to those marriages staying together. Or, it's that some women and men actually go with those old gender roles, so they just accept that their married life will be dictated by gender. There still keeps being kind of scooting around, and switching around of the issues in this discussion.
The masculine traits "looks-wise" matter:
Who/what is attracted to whom is one thing. Of course, as a heterosexual woman, I'm attracted to a guy whose appearance is more masculine than feminine. That's about looks, though. As a human being (that few people seem to know exists behind this feminine-looking appearance I have), I know that what we are on the inside can be very different from what we are on the outside.
Where I would draw the line on "appearance on the outside" is with the person's actual physical traits. Nothing else. If a guy is just waiting for a bus, say, you can see what his traits are. Those are the traits I mean.
It seems to me you've included in "traits" behaviors, like whether or not a guy fixes the car. There's a stereotype. Whether a guy uses the strength he has to lift a washing machine is a matter of his being able to - not a part of who he is on the inside. If he has come to equate his masculinity with whether or not he can lift a washing machine, he's got issues. The world is full of masculine, emotionally strong, kind, brilliant men who can't easily lift a washing machine (or even fix a car).
The issue of men and women being different. I'm not someone who thinks they're the same (although I would like to point out that in decades of living as an adult, I've only spent 15 months carrying a total of babies and an additional 3 hours delivering them. Yes. We're different, but we're not all that different. If we're mature and well adjusted and smart and strong and capable of loving, we're all pretty much the same. People who have been raised to think otherwise "aren't there yet", and that's the issue that needs addressing - not recommending that people adjust to make those "not there yet" people stay in a marriage that isn't going to hold up (or remain miserable in one that they'll glue together with their unhappiness), by falling in line with the ignorant belief that women and men are not (or cannot possibly be) absolutely "the same" kind of human being on the inside.
There's an awful lot of talk about India, but Hubs are read in the US as well. I don't know what does or doesn't go on with Indian marriages, but maybe some people in India (if that's the issue with a Hub) would benefit by seeing the ideas of a different culture. If the idea is to write Hubs designed to go along with someone else's culture, maybe that's something to mention up front in a Hub.
Decision-making:
I think whoever knows more about whatever area the decision involves makes the best person for input into decision-making on that area.. At the same time, decisions should be made together with people understanding that the other's views may be valid. Explaining reasoning (and if necessary backing up reasoning by sharing with the other person some expert references) are important too.
Control:
Nobody should be trying controlling anything that isn't his "business" or "department". Shared control might be over the house. If kids are throwing a baseball in the living room, whichever parent is nearby first has the right to tell the kids to stop because that shared control means both partners have agreed there will be no wrecking the living room by the kids. On the other hand, if a child has a school or medical issue, maybe one parent knows better about either education or medical things, and should be the one with a little more say. Then again, if both people are equal in this kind of knowledge, they have to decide through reasoning and communication.
The thing with control versus decision-making is that one person can appear to be the one who makes all the decisions; when, in reality, the other person is the one who finds way to have control of just about every last second the couple are together.
People with inappropriate control issues have problems and need help. If they don't get it their marriage will most likely end.
With any two people who live together, maybe it's rare that one person won't think he "knows better" about everything than the other. The person who thinks he "knows better" is often dead wrong, and sometimes the difference is whether the other person comes across as someone the "knows betters" respects or not.
I would say that one person essentially thinking he knows better and is better than the other may well be the root of most divorce. People who lean toward being selfish, arrogant, and/or aggressive (just in personality, not necessarily real aggression) tend to measure others by themselves. They value what they are (otherwise they wouldn't be what they are), and their self-esteem is higher than it should be (for a person who hasn't yet quite mastered the art of being an unselfish, non-aggressive, caring person WHILE STILL BEING strong and smart).
Divorces happen because too many husbands look at wives who look like I do and think, "She can't possibly know what she's talking about unless it's about washing dishes or changing diapers."
They happen because too many wives put the whole load of "all of life" on the backs of their husbands, acting as if the guy is nothing but a workhorse and handy thing to keep around.
They happen because people look at someone who is and looks masculine and assigns him "duties" and "roles" and "tasks" and "expectations"; and they happen because people do the same when they look at women - but often in reverse.
I can't even believe that in 2010 someone in this thread (I forget who) mentioned women "fighting for equality". Can you believe that women even HAVE to "fight for equality"??? (And that's in the US and whatever other Western countries there are.)
I just don't think "appreciating a guy as a man" includes making sure he's always the one to deal with auto repairs. It's also not great to presume that a woman with the flu might not appreciate having someone make her a cup of soup. Letting a guy know she appreciates his male qualities/appearance or role in intimacy is a very different thing from whether or not someone equates washing-machine lifting and tire-changing with "what men do and are".
Divorces happen because one person, or neither person, doesn't even know who/what the other person is as a human being - past whatever shows up on the outside.
Believing that placing emphasis on "male-ness" over emphasis on "human-ness" is what people have to do to hold a marriage together underestimates the potential of both men and women.
I don't know about India or anywhere else, but I know that since the US first existed, a whole lot of oppression because of sex or race has resulted in generations of lost human potential and power in one way or another. Let's not raise yet another flock of young girls and boys to believe that the only possible way for people to stay married is to buckle under to traditional roles (or associates with those roles).
How about we start telling people how to recognize what is genuine love (the kind that lasts) as opposed to what is less than that.
In the meantime, time to set up the dining room table for another night of ribbon-and-pearl-gluing on those organza flowers for my daughter's (and sons') father and me. You know what? Maybe I shouldn't share this personal information on here; but maybe if, back when we were married, I hadn't spent so many hours doing things like dance-recital costumes and getting school-party treats together alone (because "the kid stuff is the mother's job", according to "some people") - maybe THAT would have been something that headed off a lot of problems.
I tried to raise my two sons to have strength of character, intelligence, emotional maturity, good sense, kindness, respect for other people, and the knowledge that they have a right to equal respect from others, as human beings. I hope their future wives are smart enough to know to let them know they're appreciated for those things; because if they do their marriages will stand a good chance of surviving. The masculinity I see in those two young men is far more than whether or not either of them goes around lifting refrigerators and changing tires (especially in a Triple A world).
I tried to raise my daughter to have the same things, and I think if her future husband sees those things in her (and lets her know he does), their marriage will stand a good chance too. No. She can't lift a refrigerator (and she does have Triple A too), but she's smart and strong and kind and amazingly multi-talented. Anyone who loves her (whether that's me or her future husband) would not expect her to compromise all the things she is out of fear that her husband may feel less manly. I don't think he will, because I think he's like my daughter and sons when it comes to that kind of thing.
True, I don't know many people from India very well, but I find it hard to believe that somewhere in India some mother wouldn't find it "about as manly as it gets" if her daughter's father joined in the fun of making frilly party favors. I know, without a doubt, that there are plenty of daughters in India who are every bit as bright and strong and talented as my American daughter.
Maybe this is just "frilly maternal instinct" or else the hard-wiring of evolution, but I think one of the "manly" things a guy can do is be happy to have his own children, take care of them, be engaged in their lives, be willing to risk a little appearance of not being "masculine" here or there; and truly share in all the aspects of parenting (not just the ones a guy thinks guys are involved with).
People on here are talking about "encouraging abuse" and "not encouraging" abuse and brutes and goons, etc. Well... It is a form of abuse for girls and women to live in a world that doesn't even know they have the potential, intelligence, and strength so many girls and women have. It's abuse to expect girls and women not to be who they are and everything they can be "just to keep a marriage together" because some guy doesn't know the differences between things like masculinity, stereotypes, etc.
It's abuse to let those old notions stay around, rather than speak up and say, "No - there's a difference between 'being masculine' and changing tires."
They are the upcoming generation of "marrieds", and maybe those of us who have learned a little something about how and why divorce happens can share what we've learned the hard way. (Heck - my generation is the one that starting spreading the word that romantic love is nothing more than infatuation; and that it's either destined to die or else turn into "something more comfortable", and we should all marry our best friends. Oops. Turns out best friends sometimes ought to stay best friends. )
(Sorry for taking up so much space here. The subject of marriage and divorce is one of my "things", but now even more so, as I'm adjusting to the thought of my youngest child getting married. Either way, I do think this is an important discussion for people to have.)
What does that mean leaders and followers...everyone follows, directions, roads, etc. If you aren't a follower or leader your just a hanger on aka. groupie.
When men and women form a relationship sometimes they must be a leader and a follower, for instance while dancing. Dominance in a relationship doesn't work give and take, follow and lead...good and bad.
Remember that there is duality in life.
We aren't talking about following directions to a destination
People don't have to be either leaders or followers. You can just BE. You can exist without heroes, without leaders.
Again, yes, sometimes people take dominant roles in a relationship. What I object to is Dawn's insistence that male dominance is a necessary part of a good relationship.
It isn't. While I prefer equality, females can be dominant also and that doesn't make for a bad marriage as she insists.
A man can ve dominat and still be a gentleman, just like a woman can be dominant and still be a Lady
any kind of combination of dominant/submissive types can work - it is so subjective. It is truly amazing what unbelievable relationships do actually thrive. Sometimes I'm amazed that anyone can survive in a marriage, or even in a significant other relationship. But I actually know so very few people who truly do well in "traditional" relationships with the standard gender roles in place, that now I think the traditional way was all a myth, from the beginning. Many people I've met SAY they are traditional but the better you know them, the more you find out how different and strange they really are! The secret to making love work is always listening, responding always from the love in your heart, and respecting your partner. If you do that and have mushy, steamy hot love as well, you will live together until you are 140 or more! no lie!
of course, none of this is going to happen for me because I can't make up my mind about what KIND of partner I want - let alone whether they should be dominant or submissive. sigh.nicely pur mega!
Oh darn, your not talking about femdoms? I know a hot mistress that,,,, well you said your not talking about that so ok,,,,
IMO most women in marriages are the dominate ones, even if the guy does not think so.- china manposted 13 years ago
0 A woman can be dominant, as long as she lets the man play in his shed, is greatful when he gets through the list of chores and doesn't overdo the multi tasking. Oh, and of course there is the V and P thing! If the dominant woman can allow herself to be liberally satisfied, I think everyone is happy.
...now we're talkin'....sure let him play in the shed....i've got the garage with the toys!....
...couldn't help myself....Dawn, I get what you are saying!Only if she wears the appropriate attire! Such as a black leather bra, black leather crotchless short shorts, and black nylon fishnet stockings with black garters! And oh yeah, I almost forgot....the black leather whip!
thx 4 your support
Well there are men that love to be submissive, wanting their woman to order them around and treat them like dirt, really.
It's a fetish, sissy crossdressers. Lots more of them out there than you think. They even want to be submissive in the bedroom, in fact more so.
No, I'm not one, but don't ask how I know,,,Since Dawn won't answer, maybe shed like to read this: http://hubpages.com/hub/Do-women-need-m … -dominance
American Tiger definitely needs to read it- meridian1960posted 13 years ago0
Could you guys please help me out here? I am trying my best to dominate, but if you would just first put on these chain thingies . . .
I actually knew someone a few years back who invited me to join her for something like that.. I declined as politely as possible
- awesome77posted 13 years ago0
Please protect me... I cannot run with this boots on
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